Transcript of How to Find a GOOD Church (and When to Leave) ft. Ed Newton & Matt Chewning | Live Free with Josh Howerton

A lot of people in their search for a perfect church, they never get to enjoy a good one.

Do they love the scriptures? Are you getting more of the scripture? Are you getting more somebody's opinion? That's very dangerous.

I think what Christians do so many times, we draw lines and we're like, I can't cross that line because of my convictional persuasion. This journey is not about drawing lines. It's about a different direction.

Well, hey, Live Free Nation. Before we jump into the episode, this podcast is recorded right here at Lake Pointe Church in Dallas, Texas. But the Live Free Nation is spread all over the country and all around the world. So if you've been watching and thinking, man, I wish I could be part of something like this, we want to invite you to take a simple next step, and that is join us for church online. Every weekend we stream our services live on YouTube, Facebook, and our church online platform. And it's more than just watching a service. There are live hosts in the chat, prayer teams ready to stand with you, and people all around the world worshiping together in real time. And so whether you're exploring the faith, coming back to church, or just looking for a place to start, church online is a great way to jump in and experience what God is doing here at Lake Pointe. We would love to see you in the chat this weekend. And now enjoy the podcast.

All right, we're rolling. Hey, hey, hey, let's go, baby! What's up, Live Free Nation? Hey, wait, you guys gotta do this.

Where's the camera?

On the count of 3, everyone say, let's kick this pig. 1, 2, 3.

Let's kick this pig.

Yes, dude. Okay, so here's who— this is gonna be the most fun bonus episode ever. I'm with 2 of my dear friends, Pastor Ed Newton, Pastor Matt Tuning. I almost called him Matt Channing.

Or Matt Chandler.

It's like you and Matt Chandler had a baby.

And I popped out looking like a younger version of Ed.

Yes. So for Live Free Nation, these guys are 2 dear, dear, dear pastor friends. These are the guys, they breathe fresh air into my soul, lift my arms when I'm weary.

Yes, sir.

And they're in town for a very fun recording we have later today. Yes.

Can't wait.

I'm not talking about it. You could talk about it.

Actually, I think I can. Can I?

Yeah. I'm not trying to leak anything.

Jason, can I say it? Who the recording is later today? Okay. I think I'm allowed because we'll be teasing about it. So Philip Anthony Mitchell's coming in later. Let's go.

Who's that dude?

Who is that guy?

Let's go.

Who's that guy?

Are there no sound effects on this?

Like a wow.

Hey, Ruslan would have that.

He would, dude. He's so much—

It's okay.

Yeah, I'm not at his level.

No, none of us are.

One day.

One day. So here's what we want to do is like, we got 2 unbelievable pastors in. These guys are influencing different parts of the country. These guys have influenced me. I just want to say this. Come on. These guys have influenced me. I may get a little emotional talking about it. These dudes are like— can somebody help him with his mic? It's all right. You can be on camera, Trinity. You can be on camera.

Is it good?

Am I good? It's so droopy.

Well, you kind of just—

wait, wait. You guys, Live Free Nation, welcome Trinity back. Let's go. Welcome Trinity back to the actual video.

Yes.

Here we go. Here's what we're going to do is I couldn't not do an episode with these guys because they're good men, they're good husbands, they're good dads, they're good pastors, and they've been good friends to me. And so yeah, man, it's going to be a lot of fun. So here's what I want to do. Here's where we're going to go. If you guys are— for people who are listening, I'm going to brag on these guys for a second and then we're going to do 2 things. And one of them you guys don't know we're going to do, but you're going to be great at it.

Are we allowed to brag on you at some point?

Can we brag on you right now?

I just feel like—

But see, if you put me in that position, I say yes, I sound like a complete jerk.

All right, well, here's— we're going to brag.

We're going to do it.

Yeah.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Let me tell them where we're going and then you can do that.

I'm living free now. Let's go, baby.

Let me tell them where we're going.

Let me tell them where we're going.

So we had hundreds and hundreds of people submit questions like, hey, ask a— and we are intentionally a little clickbaity. Ask a megachurch pastor. You got to lean into it a little bit. And I'll talk about this here in a second. Ed Newton, essentially the entire city of San Antonio goes to Ed's church.

Facts.

I think they fit like 20, 30 billion people into their one, their dadgum building over there.

No, no, for real. How many services you doing now?

7.

Okay.

7 services. You guys are over 20, right? Over 20,000?

Yes, sir.

So that's like a move of God.

And I got 20 people in my church.

Stop, dude. That ain't true. That ain't true. Tuning, bro. And I'll just say it, People can say whatever they want to say. To do what you're doing in Boston, man, that ain't no joke. And you're a faithful, Spirit-filled man.

Yes, sir.

Come on, man. We grinding. We out there grinding, baby.

All us Northeast people, you know, not easy.

My story on Matt Schoening is me and him preached at James Griffin's men's conference earlier this year because Matt Chandler backed out of last night.

Yes, seriously.

Seriously. Chandler was sick.

I was an audible.

He was sick. And I finished preaching. And you guys know what this is like. I finished my sermon. I was like, dang, man, it was really good. And I didn't do the conclusion very good. You guys know what that's like. If you're a preacher, you're like, man, you got to preach the close and close like a freight train. And I was like, ah, conclusion wasn't that great, but I was like, went pretty well. And then I walked off stage and I could literally hear from the stadium, Chuning is dominating me. He preached right after me. And I was like, they are definitely liking that a lot better than me.

That's a funny story because when I got— I thought he was going to say that's a fact. No, that's not a— that's a funny story.

'Cause he probably thought it.

No, no, no, no. I crushed that.

Not gonna lie.

No, just kidding. No, that was a funny story because when I got up, there was no break between you and me. It was basically you went and then I got to go up. And not only did I have to go directly after the one and only Pastor Josh Howerton, but in addition to that, I was an audible. And so they're like, hey, just so you know. So that was Josh Howerton. And now, um, Matt Chandler's not here, but we found another Matt C from like Boston. And like he hopped on a plane and literally 40% of the entire room got up to go to the bathroom as they announced me up. And so I just started screaming at 'em. I was like, sit down, your worship sucks. This is terrible. Do you even love God? If you don't love God, go ahead and go to the bathroom. Okay? So they started trickling back in and I just yelled at 'em.

Well, it worked.

Well, it worked.

It was fair. So that's me bragging on you. Now you can do whatever you're gonna do.

Yeah.

And then we'll get it. Wait. Oh, I'm supposed to tell 'em where— let me tell 'em where we're going because when people are listening to podcasts, they're deciding if they're gonna listen and the rest of the thing. So we had hundreds of people send in ask a pastor kind of things. I'll shoot you straight. We were talking about this with, by the way, with some sweaty eyes before we're doing this.

For sure.

Stuff we're going to hit, stuff like, our oldest son is gay and the only way he sees Jesus is through us. Where do we draw the line? Can a wife correct her husband? How? Supporting scripture. I got married in June. My husband's a pastor. How can I best support him? How do I know I'm attending a godly church? How do I know when I should leave this church and go to another church? Do you lose your salvation if you stay in habitual sin? My son is an atheist. Every time I talk about the Bible, he scoffs. What do I do? And then unbeknownst to you guys, I'm going to toss at you the top 6 objections to megachurches, and then we'll rapid-fire those. Wow. And we're going to hit a couple other things. It's going to be spicy. So you guys do whatever you need to do.

Buckle up.

Well, can I just say, I just want to say something first.

Yeah, please.

Is that okay?

Because you're the elder.

I was going to say you're the elder one. You need to close it out for sure.

That's awesome.

Josh, I wanna look you in the eyes on this one.

Yeah.

Okay. For real. This is real. I need you to hear this.

Yep.

You have built an incredible platform and an incredible ministry.

Okay.

Real talk. You are a better man behind closed doors.

That's right.

And you are a better man off of the stage and behind the camera than you are in front of it. And I mean that genuinely, man. We've had some conversations, whether that's text messages, videos, whether that's being in a— together where we were in, uh, in Georgia together. Um, you are an encourager.

Mm-hmm.

Just, I look at my own life, dude. I have— I don't mean this to be like false humility. I just have no business being in a room like this at times, I feel. And I don't mean that— again, that's not self-deprecation. I just know the size of your platform. But man, you are, you are always there to elevate others. And a lot of people think just because you have something big that it's been about you and about building your platform and elevating yourself, when people don't know that behind the scenes, you're the one who's encouraging everyone to come up. I mean, I even think of a little side story. I was asking Joby Martin, why Joby, did you put this cohort together? And he said, well, it was because Josh Howard told me I had to. There's a cohort that's investing in 20 pastors.

Mm-hmm.

Right?

Because you've pushed another man who also has a large platform to utilize his platform to make sure that these guys who nobody knows, but they're leading churches that are doing some things for the kingdom to make sure that they aren't left isolated and alone. And people don't know that stuff about you. And so, bro, we're grateful for you. Grateful for real.

Thank you for saying that. I'll pay you extra for saying that.

For sure. I personally, I think about the moment that I first met you. This is the part. that you and I first met, and this probably will never make it on a podcast, but you text me to encourage a pastor down in San Antonio, Texas. Our worlds were, I think, beginning to connect and align. And you go, hey man, on a day off, I just drive to clear my head. And you're like, I'm going to be in San Marcos, which is about 35, 40 minutes from me. And you go, I'm going to be at a coffee shop. I'd love to meet you. You took the initiative to meet with me. I meet you at a coffee shop. I feel like I need to bring you a gift. I bring you a pair of Jordans.

Wait, will you tell them what kind of Jordans it is?

I know this story. So they were like Space Jam Jordans, which had rabbit fur.

Rabbit fur. Like actual rabbit fur looking?

Well, now that you're a hunter, you probably would take them now, but they were like this faux rabbit fur, but they're a collector's item. And I am bringing the best of the best.

Like literally. This is going to make me sound like a jerk. It's like frankincense of shoes. No, no, no.

But I'm going to flip this because the moment you looked at me and we just met and you go, hey, I am grateful that you would do this. You're like, but I'm a boot guy and I will never wear those. It was at that moment I was like, this dude and I, we about to be friends because it was honest. Yeah.

Honest.

So from that, multiple meals we've had at different places that we were connected. But there was a moment I called you in the parking lot of a Panda Express and my world had fallen apart and I was going through it. I just felt beat up at a lot of levels, just wrestling with depression, wrestling with anxiety, wrestling with things that so many times just don't make it into podcasts like this. And you prayed with me, encouraged me. And then literally I'm sitting at the table, Matt, and I get a text message of a $450 gift card to take my wife out to a steak dinner.

Mm-hmm.

That's Pastor Josh Howerton.

Yeah.

So we honor you, sir.

Yeah, we do.

I love you guys. I mean it. So I appreciate you being a band of brothers.

Yeah.

And the one last thing I got, I got one last thing.

We got more.

Yeah. Maybe we just bump the whole podcast to just gas you up a little bit.

No, no, that's a bad idea.

But your desire to be accessible is second to none. You have answered the call anytime I've called. You've hit me back.

If I need a drink— First of all, if you randomly FaceTime people, could we—

Bro, that's a fact.

I don't care. I just don't care.

He called me mid-arm workout. I was like, okay, here we go. I will.

But the fact that you allow yourself to be accessible, there was one time I hit you up and you were like, bro, I'm putting the kids to bed. I'm going to hit you up when I get done. And you do. And so I just need you to know, again, pastors, pastors, people that sit in that seat, Rarely carry that level of accessibility. And it's just what you do is special.

You just need to know that, man.

We bless you, bro.

Thank you.

For real. Thank you. All right. Rapid fire.

Okay.

Both you guys gotta do these. Newton, you go first. Tuning, you go second. Jordan or LeBron?

Oh, that's all day Jordan.

100% Jordan every time.

Who are 2 ministry influences that have influenced your life in ministry?

Danny Sinkfield, who is a pastor out of Bartlett, Tennessee that most people would never hear about that took a shot on me at 22 years old.

Come on, man.

And then a guy I never got a chance to meet by the name of David Busby.

Oh, Busby. I know that name. Okay.

Just 2 is really hard.

I know.

Okay. I'm going to go with more than that because I don't obey. I'm going to go David Wilkerson, actually from back in the day.

Shout out.

Really changed my life as a brand new believer. Really changed my life.

And man, for Live Free Nation, if you've never read Cross and the Switchblade, OG, great book.

Yes. Unbelievable. Times Square Church in New York City.

That's right.

Shout out.

Yep. And then I'm going to go with my pastor back when I was living in North Carolina for 5 years, Pastor Alan Holmes. And then 2 others I'm going to just throw in the mix is Matt Chandler and Matt Carter.

I love it, dude. It's great. In-N-Out or Whataburger?

Man, Texas, because I'm Texas. It's In-N-Out.

This is crazy. Hey man, leave his church.

And Whataburger. Whataburger is hubbed out of San Antonio. The headquarters is in San Antonio.

That's the—

In-N-Out or Whataburger?

No, but I got to say this. They got Nahum 1:7 on the cup.

I know. It's funny. Their manager reached out to me because I'm always like, Whataburger, Whataburger. And they're like, we got Bible verses on stuff.

Not even like John 3:16. I'm talking about Bible verses that most people don't even know.

Like Nahum.

Nahum.

Takes you 15 minutes to find it. You're like, what is that one in there?

real Christian.

This is actually a problem.

You say Whataburger, I'm going to choke you out.

No, I just need you to know I'm going Dunkin' Donuts because we don't have it either where I live. We don't have either where I live, bro.

He came to San Antonio. I took you to In-N-Out and baked a t-shirt.

Favorite Bible translation to read?

To read? I'm an ESV guy all day.

To read would be NIV. To preach from would be ESV.

Yeah. ESV. Hey, real quick, and then we're going to dive into some of this stuff, this little meteor. Will you give, and I know this is an unfair ask, Give your 2-minute, here's who I am, here's what my ministry is. Age before beauty.

Okay. Oh, sure.

Wow.

Okay.

No, I'll take it. I just landed there at almost 51. I just kind of landed there.

You did.

You're like, I'm going to go with it.

I think for me, when God called me to ministry at 18 years old and was biblically illiterate, I go off to a Bible college and I just began to understand the significance of the grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of the Lord remains forever. And I was like, I want people to know the depths of God's word. So my ministry exists to eradicate biblical illiteracy.

Bro, that is one thing about Ed. Ed does— people wouldn't think it because you're funny, your illustrations are great, you're easy to listen to, bro. Ed does— there's theology underneath an Ed Newton sermon.

You're kind, Ed.

Every time. There's something underneath there. That's why I listen to you.

You're kind.

Got you.

Yeah. Um, I would say became a believer in college, had never met a Christian until I got to college and get saved radically. Um, I mean, in essence, I know the gospel is so real because it still hits me hard every time I just think about who I was and who I am. Um, um, met my wife when I was in college. A few years later, the Lord— um, we graduated from, from college. I was going to climb the corporate ladder. Did that for about 7 years, and then the Lord called us.

You were doing some kind of sales?

Yeah, I was in sales. Yeah, it was— we did, uh, design space planning for like major corporations. So, um, was making 6 figures at like 25 years old, was doing fairly well, had a bunch of kids already. Like, we were just plugging along, and the Lord just gave us a dream to plant a church. This is back in the Acts 29 days. Um, and, uh, went through an Acts 29 assessment, and they actually like yellow-lighted me, were like, bro, you ain't ready. You got You got some stuff you got to like work through. And we submitted to the stuff that they wanted us to work on, and about a year later they greenlighted us. And so we had moved to plant a church in the Greater Boston area, one of the least reached regions of the United States. To this day, it is the place where you are least likely to read the Bible, to claim Christ as Lord, to attend a local church, or to consider yourself as a person to pray.

Amen!

And we started the church in our living room and have been grinding ever since. Our church is in a mall. We're literally in a mall directly adjacent to AMC Movies.

Yeah. These guys are crushing.

Yeah, they are.

Yeah.

It's interesting. We have probably about 1,200 people coming every Sunday right now, but our—

It's a big deal, man.

I know, but our room is like 350 seats. So it's just like churning and it's been really an interesting journey.

Yeah, man. All right. Well, I'm grateful for you. Let's dive in. I'm going to start with something and just throw it at you. I want us to talk about real quick what we think is happening in the church in America. And then we're going to start getting into these Ask a pastor things, that kind of thing. So Trini, I actually am going to use those diagrams. So let me, Ed, I'm going to do my 3 circles thing.

I was going to say it's the best thing I've ever heard.

All right. I'm going to do my 3 circles thing. I want to hear what— here's what I'm asking. I feel like something has happened in the church in America in general. You're seeing for the first time on the graphs, all of us are similar ages. How old are you?

43.

43. I'm 43. Okay. Fitty, you 50?

51 next month.

So I got it.

That's it.

Yeah.

So here's what's interesting. We have grown up where we have never in any of our lifetimes seen a graph where a percentage of people claiming Christ in America was on an uptick until, from what I understand, until the last 18, 24 months.

Yep.

So I'm going to put a few dots together. A lot of people who are listening, you probably don't even know this. So literally all of us grew up seeing all the graphs just do this, all this thing. Last 18, 24 months, first time in our entire lifetimes, you got this little thing going on. I will say, dude, I'll Can I just kind of point this out? This is like, let me just speak it into existence. Please, Lord.

Prophesy it.

Bro, if you look at the history of revivals and awakenings in the United States—

Speak this.

For real, bro. This is like, my eyes are gonna sweat every time I talk about this. You go First Great Awakening. So that's Jonathan Edwards, George Whitefield. 50 years later, you get Second Great Awakening. Okay. 50 years after Second Great Awakening, I'm gonna make sure I try to get this right. 50 years after the Second Great Awakening, That's when you get the New York Businessmen's Revival. You kind of get that around there. Okay. 50 years after that, you get Azusa. Shout out charismatic brothers and sisters. That was a revival. I don't care what you say. That was an actual outpouring of the Spirit. You get Azusa. 50 years after that, this is where my eyes start sweating. 50 years after that, you get Jesus Movement. That's height of Billy Graham, Chuck Smith, Jesus Revolution, all the hippies getting saved. Right.

Bring it.

50 years after that, guess where you're at?

Yeah, we're here.

You're about 2026. Okay, now I'm gonna show some things.

Year of Jubilee.

Uh, please, Lord.

Every 50.

Bro. Okay. All right. 7/7/49.

He's releasing the captives.

That's wild.

Okay. I'd never put that together. Yeah. All right.

Did you, did, wait, did you just come up with that on the spot?

I talked to the guy on the airplane about it.

Okay, good.

Just yesterday or today.

Of course you did.

No, no, no. Yeah, it's for real. I think it's a cycle of the 50.

Come on, please do it again, Lord. Listen, man, if our kids and grandkids got to grow up in a window of revival, oh my gosh, man.

Okay. Let it be.

So then I feel like you're seeing this thing. Trini, go ahead and toss that thing up. And this is my life message. I did this at Ed's church when I came and preached. And so we've all grown up in this thing. I just want to hear what y'all think about this, and then we'll get into this stuff. We got a rapid fire. So here's what you got. You got 3 types of churches that historically, in my opinion, they all stay away from each other. So you got doctrinal churches. This is kind of what I kind of came of age in ministry in. These are your highly theological churches. Frozen Chosen, it's a little joke.

Book of Matthew for 7 years.

That kind of, yeah. 1, 2, 3 John. That's John MacArthur, John Piper. That's kind of that thing.

Gross.

I don't know who the third one will be. That's them. So that's that. They love the word of God. Then go to the next one. You got the attractional church movement. That was kind of like seeker-sensitive movement. And dude, by the way, people knock on that all the time. Praise God for that.

So many people got saved.

Praise God, dude. They act like heaven and hell are real and people are actually going to go there.

And what's the opposite of attractional?

Ugly.

Repulsive. Yeah.

Nobody's trying to do ugly church. Like, come on, what are we doing here?

So it's like, the winning value over there is mission of God. Like, I just want to reach people. Okay? And then the other one you got right down here is charismatic churches. And this, hey, Spirit of God is the primary thing. And man, we got some great brothers and sisters over there.

Yes, sir.

You got ARC Movement. I mean, just— and actually here in a second, I'll show you a graph that'll blow your mind. Another graph that'll blow your mind. So charismatic. So these 3 things, then honestly, man, what I feel like, what I want to see, in my life, ministry, and our generations. Go to that next one. Is church— go to that next one. The one with the— yeah, right there. Right there in the middle.

That's great.

And you see this kind of in the New Testament. I won't do the whole thing right now, but the Apostle Paul in Romans 15, he's like, man, how did I do ministry? By word, deed, and the power of signs and wonders. Doctrinal churches are all about the word. Attractional churches, they're typically reaching people through deed. Power of Signs and Wonders, charismatic churches. R.T. Kendall has this fire quote.

Yes, sir.

Fire quote. I read it, it tattooed itself on my soul. He said, there are word churches and there are spirit churches. There has been a great divorce in the church between word and spirit. And like any divorce, some kids go with the mom and some kids go with the dad. Bro, listen. He said, revival happens when you bring those 2 back together.

Yes, sir.

Man.

All right, let me do one more. And then I just want to hear what y'all think is happening. As you're seeing the lay of the land, first time in a minute uptick. You're seeing some things come together that typically aren't together. Let me do one other thing. Show that first graph that's got the stuff omitted.

Yep.

So this one will make you cry, but the next one will give you some hope. So I took this a couple years ago. This is a percent change in membership in the major denominations in the United States over the last 35 years. Average is down. It's like 25, 24, 25% with one extremely extreme outlier exception. I omitted it from this on purpose. Go to the next one. AOG is the one that's like breaking every trend, bro. Yeah.

Every trend. Yeah.

Plus 51%.

For years.

For years. A lot of people don't know this. The charismatic church movement is the— I'm not saying it's perfect, obviously. Nobody's got a corner on that. That's the fastest growing movement in all of church history globally. All right. So then—

In all of church history globally?

In all of church history. Okay. Now I'll do one last thing. I'll do one last thing. And then I just want to hear what you guys— I'm just asking you, what do you see happening right now in the church in America in the way of these Ask a Pastor questions? Dude, so we had R.T. Kendall. If you don't know who R.T. Kendall is, Holy Fire. Repent and go find Holy Fire. That's a great dang book. R.T. Kendall came to Lake Point. He preached—

Right after me.

Yep.

Praise God.

That's— You are the worst. You want to follow a loser, not a legend.

Geez, bro.

Yes. He preached Encounter at Lake Point the day before Ed.

Yeah.

He was 91 years old when he preached at Lake Point. And let me just say, there's a gravitas to a 91-year-old senior saint opening the word.

You're listening to a sage.

Bro, a pin. You could have heard a pin drop in that 4,500-person sanctuary.

Nobody was leaving to go to the bathroom.

Sorry, Chad.

Nobody. Nobody.

He preached. I bet 40% of the room responded in repentance when he's done. So R.T. Kendall, said he— and he's got a healthy understanding of word and spirit. R.T. Kendall's analogy is he goes, Isaac and Ishmael in the Old Testament.

Mm-hmm.

And Abraham tries to force the promise and he gets Ishmael, who he thought was the child of the promise, but wasn't the promise. And then he gets Isaac, that Isaac is the actual promise. R.T. Kendall looked at me, I laid hands on him, prayed for him right back there. And he said, Josh, what I think the Spirit told me God may do in this generation is, he said, the move of the Spirit that you have currently seen through some of these movements, he said, was Ishmael. And we've seen God do some wonderful things. And people thought that was the promise of the revival and the move of God that was going to come. And he said, I think what God showed me is that it wasn't. But then he said, Isaac is coming.

Wow.

Wow. I'm like, wow. He said, I think Isaac's coming. And he thinks in our generation we'll see a marriage of that word and spirit thing that will—

It's happening.

That will sweep. So let me just ask you. So I just downloaded a bunch and then we're going to do Ask a Pastor stuff. When you hear that, you look at what's happening in the church in America, what do you see? What do you think's happening?

I mean, the first thing I would just say is like all the things that you're talking about is what's happening.

It's here.

That is what's happening. It is here. As a matter of fact, I will go as far as to say is a lot of the denominational churches or groups that you had up on that screen, people are trying to get out of those denominations because they have a sense that the Spirit is at work and there's a curiosity about the Holy Spirit and there's a desire to walk in the Spirit in that way. And so it's not even that so many people are just leaving the church. It's like, churches are all of a sudden gaining the Spirit and we're like Assemblies of God without the label. I mean, I would say that's true. I would say that's true for both of our churches. That's been something that we've both talked about. That's one of the things that brought us together. So you could talk a little bit about more your church, but mine is that that has absolutely been the case. We were pretty staunch Reformed charismatic, but I would say more Reformed than charismatic. Charismatic was more of a label than it was how we operated. And I would say over the course of 15 years, our Reformed theology, although we would kind of lean in that direction, we are way more excited about the Spirit than anything.

Now we are Bible, we love the scriptures, we open our Bible every day. There's no doubt about it. But man, I want to see the Spirit of God move.

Come on, man.

In power. And so we're praying for healings every service. We're inviting people to come. We're yelling at people, if you don't worship the Lord with with dancing and your hands in the air. We've got to pursue what the scripture says is true about the Spirit and not just say that we believe it, but not actually pursue it. So I just see that very much in my church. And I think it's the church, at least nationally. I don't know too much globally, but—

I grew up Southern Baptist. And I think for me, I had a very theological Wayne Grudem understanding of the Holy Spirit.

Wayne Grudem, by the way, charismatic guy.

See, I didn't know that.

Strong belief in continuationism, gifts of the Spirit.

Okay, go ahead. So I grew up as—

But let me say, a lot of people who read Wayne are not.

True story.

Yeah.

And quote him.

Well, I think for me, that book of systematic theology was almost, depending on the seminary that you went to, for me was like the gifts of the Spirit are done. with the apostles.

Yeah. Cessationism.

So I held to cessationism. And then I pastor a non-denominational church. So I come out of Southern Baptist, become non-denominational, where it is a conglomerate of every one of these particular backgrounds. And I think what happened for us is a curiosity of there's got to be more. There's just got to be more. And I think for me personally, I've been on a journey. My mom died in 2020. My mom was deaf. My mom had cerebral palsy. And I get a journal entry from my grandmother who had passed away 20-something years prior from my mom's sister. And my mom's sister, my aunt goes, I think you need to read this. I didn't know it, but my grandmother took my mom to a Pentecostal healing service to be healed of her deafness. My mom was unable to have children, married to my dad, comes forward and a man prophesies over my mom not to be healed of her deafness, but tells her she's pregnant. And it was me.

I never heard this story.

Yeah, it was me.

Wow.

And this put me on a journey of going, there's got to be more to this. So in this pursuit of the Holy Spirit, I began to see this. But when you came to our church, I'd never understood those 3 circles and it gave me language. Words define worlds. And now my world has been framed with these 3 circles. And I think what we're seeing is that the streams are converging of what we have seen denominationally. But when you look at poverty and persecution, the fastest churches in the world are growing in places that sometimes don't even make it in Outreach Magazine. and don't have podcasts and don't have worship centers like we do. It's in places where, like, Christ, you're all we have and we need the dependence on the Holy Spirit because of the warfare. And I've learned this from you, and you gave me language that every time there was riots, there was revival.

Revival, riot, revival, riot.

Okay. And so you see these rhythms.

That's right.

And I think what we have seen for the first time in our history is this clash of the church and culture. And we're watching politics kind of come into—

Our lane.

Our lane. And we're having to rightly defend the word of God, 1 Peter 3:15. And we're going, the sword of the Lord is sufficient, but we need the Spirit of God to pull back scales. And we know faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, but it's like, no, this is spiritual warfare. And we need to be activated when we see Ephesians 6 of battling in the spirit realm. And I've preached in some Assembly of God churches and COGIC churches, and this is what these men are saying. How dare we have to— have we thought that we were the ones who had the corner market on the Holy Spirit?

Wow.

Yeah, bro, I'm seeing the same thing in some of those guys.

So they're saying that as I'm the guy that comes out, not in their camp, who comes into that space, but I've had an encounter with the Spirit and this is what people are saying. And I think this is probably the best way to say this. this is the Holy Spirit is not weird.

That's right.

People are weird. People are weird.

Amen.

And that when it comes to 1 Corinthians 14, I think every Christian would go, I agree with all of this except for speaking in tongues and healings.

That's true with prophecy. I see a lot of that too.

But even in prophecy, here's what I would say is that you define prophecy in 2 ways. Predicting the future, or looking at things that are easily missed that get made plain again. Totally. And I think our camp will go, yeah, I believe in the prophetic of that part.

Yeah.

But speaking to the future, I wrestle with.

Right.

But then you go, what do you do with these passages?

And we got Bible verses.

Yeah.

I got to do all the Bible verses.

So you take that systematic theology and you go, okay, if I I was just on an island and all I had was the word of God and some Nutter Butters. What do I— with no outside influence, what am I coming to?

What does it say?

And I think you come to the conclusion that this is just as much as true for them as it is for me.

That's right.

And that's what's happening. So word churches are becoming spirit churches and spirit churches are becoming word churches. And the streams are coming together. And this is the explosion that we are seeing.

Come on, man. So Mentos and Coke.

There's also—

in Jesus' name.

There's also an element, like, just for— okay, let's not even think so big. Let's just think about, like, personally. Forget about the churches and all that stuff. There comes a point in your walk with the Lord where you're just like, this is it?

That's a fact.

Like, forget about, like, churches and all that stuff, you know? I'm just like, this is it. We're just gonna do the Bible thing and, like, try to really be good and, like, trust Jesus. There's gotta be more to this. And eventually you get so frustrated with your own you know, dispensation to— disposition towards certain sin, or your own nervous system is freaking out and you're like, where is the Spirit of God? Right?

Mm-hmm.

Or like, you walk into situations where you're like, I can't do this. I need the Holy Spirit to come through. And it's like a verse isn't cutting it. I was with, I was with Eric Mason years ago. Somebody was in the room and he just paused. Somebody was in the room and they were like confessing something that they were going through. struggling. He just said, can we just be honest? Can we all just pause for a second? A verse isn't gonna fix this, guys. And it was like the first time I had a pastor who I looked up to, who loved the scriptures, was just that honest. It was like, if the Holy Spirit doesn't fall in this moment on this situation, then we're just done.

We need divine power to tear down strongholds. Yeah.

But here, here's the, just one quick thought.

Yeah.

Is there's a difference between I want the Holy Spirit for stage giftings. Because if that's the case, then we're the sons of Sceva.

Dang, dude. That is so true.

For people who don't know who sons of Sceva are, give them the 10-second.

It is, they see the gifting of what's happening in the Apostle Paul and they're watching the signs, wonders, and miracles, and they go in more of a spirit of magic.

Yeah.

We want that ability to gain that type of influence, to be able to yield and wield that kind of power. And in that moment, it's like, we know Paul, the demons speak. We know Jesus, we know Paul, but who are you?

You got no reputation in hell, brother. That's what they're going, you got no reputation in hell.

So to me, I honestly was like, I was like, this is not so I could be a better preacher. That's right. I want the Holy Spirit of God so I could love my wife better and love my kids better. And here's the difference, and I'm just going to put this out there. This is going to be a hot take.

We never do that on this. Ever.

It just felt that the AG guys had more oil of gladness than the Baptist people I hung out with.

When I'm around that crew, there is more overt evidence. When I just read fruit of the Spirit, there's 12 of them. I'm like, those guys check a lot of boxes. And I see it more over there than I see almost anywhere else.

So it feels— and so to me, it's that's— I'm like, there's something different. And when your world falls apart, I'm all for the sovereignty of God. I believe in the sovereignty of God, but I need somebody that will war in the Spirit with me.

Come on, man.

And believe that the situation and the chain can break and the stronghold could break loose.

Come on, man.

And that's what I'm believing for. And I've known people that have word, like, yes, thank you for Romans 8:28, but I need somebody that will go into Ephesians 6 with me.

That's right.

Come on, man. And in the spirit realm, wage war in the heavenly places.

Dude, I'll just— let me— I'll put a bow on this. because it dovetails into some of these Ask a Pastor questions. Honestly, man, you guys may or may not know this story. So when I started ministry, I had never really had an encounter with the Spirit. The old preacher joke of the functional Trinity was God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Bible kind of thing.

Yeah.

And this is a true story, dude. The youth ministry that I pastored— oh, this kind of makes your eyes sweat. The youth ministry I pastored, I think I grew it from like 160 to 140. And then I took over my dad's little church plant and I grew it from like 120 to like 96 or something like that the first few years. And then it started changing just a little bit. And then, dude, about 3 years in, and I won't tell the story because I've told it before, I was driving around the parking lot of the Cool Springs Mall, And I had read Martyn Lloyd-Jones' book, Joy Unspeakable. Martyn Lloyd-Jones is an old dead Presbyterian. If you saw a picture of him, you would never go, oh, there's a Spirit-filled charismatic man.

Right.

He was literally a British Presbyterian Westminster Confession doctor. And he wrote a book called Joy Unspeakable about encounter with the Spirit, his theology of the Spirit. And the longer I read that book, the only way for me to describe it is an agony. Like, dude, to this day I can feel it right now, like an agony. The longer I read it, I was just like, I cannot go 10 more seconds without having everything that Jesus Christ has on offer. I'm driving around the dang parking lot of the Cool Springs Mall, and I don't care what you call it, you can call it whatever you want, something happened to me.

Yeah.

There was a presence of God in my stupid little— I think I was driving a Nissan Altima, and I just started praying with my whole heart. I'm eyes sweating all over the place. About 3 weeks later, in the middle of one of my sermons, God heals a woman of deafness, actual deafness in the middle of the service.

Wow.

And then, dude, I don't know how to explain it. Ever since that moment, and this is one of those things, Paul watered, Apollos planted, Paul planted, Apollos watered, God gave the growth. From that moment on in my life, I don't know how to explain it. I have never been able to lead a ministry that just didn't see a unique thing happen. And that was never true before that moment.

Wow.

So I'm just saying, not by might, nor by power, but by the Spirit of the living God.

That's great.

Which leads me to some questions for some pastors. Let's start rapid firing these guys.

Yes, sir. Do we have a shot clock?

Yeah, I'm keeping us moving. I'm keeping us moving. We need to do these. So these are things that listeners sent in that are— these are thorny. So let me start with one that relates to what we just said. Somebody take the ball and then we're going to rapid fire these as best we can.

Sure.

How do I know I'm attending a godly church? It's a pod listener. They're like, hey man, I love the Bible teaching I'm hearing here. I know there's good churches and there's not good churches. I think, how do I know I'm attending a good church? Ed or Matt, somebody take the ball.

I think it's a great question because I think what you have right now in the church is so many people are measuring whether or not their church is a godly church by the good church that they see somewhere online. And so—

That's a bar.

Yeah. They're not actually weighing it appropriate. So it's a great question. And so I would just—

Wise.

Couple things that just stick out. Number one, do they love the scriptures? Are you getting more of the scripture? Are you getting more somebody's opinion? That's very dangerous. Is there some sort of accountability structure, I would say, that is evident in the structure in terms of like, can your pastor be told no? If not, it's a one-man show and that's so dangerous. And I would say that most of us— All of us. All of us at this table, right? Not all pastors, but all of us at this table, man, we wouldn't attend our own church if there wasn't some sort of accountability structure. And we have guys all the time telling us, us. And not only guys telling us, not wise. Don't do that. You can't do that. There's more.

I mean, I would just kind of go with the baptism waters are stirred.

Bro, that's good, man. Yeah.

Like our loss being saved. And then there's no perfect assimilation process in a church, but is a church striving to go from the baptistry tank? Is there a pathway of people that's rooted. We're beginning the Rooted Discipleship Pathways.

Oh, you're going to love it.

We are already in love with it.

You're going to love it.

Yeah.

We just started with our staff yesterday. I'm day 2 of my devotional in the book. It's incredible. But all that to say, ask that question. What does it look like to walk through a discipleship pathway in this church? I think mission and vision, we see this in companies, but what does that look like in a church? Does this church actually live by the mission? What are the values? The mission, which is Great Commission. But how does that become very tangible to how this church loves the city? Because when you see the ministry of Jesus, he loved cities. And a church has to figure out. So I would just say those are just low bar. I know we got the shot clock expired.

Can I get one more? Of course.

I mean, Jesus is very clear. Love one another as I've loved you. I mean, he says, by this, all people will know that you're my disciples. Is there a spirit of love that is evident in this body and it's love one another. So there's gotta be a level of community that exists. It can't just be, we're here, we show up, we all go home and the church is happy with that.

Which is messy.

Yeah, it's messy. I'll say a few things and then you can go agree, disagree, additional comments. I got a couple things. Number one, everything's downstream of the leaders. There's a reason 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1 is like, hey man, okay, let me— hey Tim, hey Titus, let me tell you how to build a good church. Let me start right here. Here's a bunch of stuff you need to see in the godly leaders. So I'm going to go godly leaders. I think that's number one. Here's what I'm saying, and that's why I love these guys. These guys are not this. I don't like it when every now and then you'll rub shoulders with a church staff and it's like there's almost this avant-garde pride they have in behind the scenes. We like to be a little rebellious.

Mm-hmm.

I'm not a huge fan of that. I like the guys who it's like behind the scenes that they're still, oh, I actually want to be a person of even more integrity than I. So godly leaders, you hit it.

But that's so good.

Bro, it's a big deal.

It's huge.

You'll see, you'll run it every now and then.

Entire networks that you and I could name, which we won't, but have been taken out because of that. That was the culture.

I don't like that. I don't like that whole like—

I don't like it either.

Oh, when we get around a fire pit, we take our pastor mask off.

Yeah, I hate that.

It's like when we're around the fire pit, that it sounds like this.

It sounds like that. And it has to.

Exactly. Yes.

And if it doesn't, I'm out the fire pit, bro. Amen.

Number 2, you said it earlier, whole counsel of God. So whole counsel of God. So here's what I would say is watch out the things that went— we all know this. Pastors don't have to try to be controversial. They just have to be willing to read Bible verses.

Yeah. Cool.

That's good. So honestly, man, ask yourself the question, what are the things in my culture, that somebody might get the most heat for, is he willing to teach that? I think that's a fair question. So in other words, is my family getting the whole counsel of God or a selectively edited one?

Yeah.

There's some really obvious things. It's like if you're, especially, not to be, I don't know, throw a— I don't want to make it sound weird, but especially in certain parts of the country, like, hey dude, if you're walking into a church and there's a rainbow flag, run for the hills, brother.

Run from—

run.

Run for the hills. Run.

Yes, sir.

Run, Massachusetts. Run.

Yeah. That kind of stuff. Number 3, I think Ed hit it. You will know them by their fruits.

Yes, sir.

So, hey man, am I seeing people saved? Am I seeing disciples get made? Am I seeing the last lost, least lonely? Do people love those people? But you will know them by their fruits. And then I'm kind of putting a bow on everything you said.

That's great.

Tuning said this is you don't just want the gospel preached, preach. You want a gospel culture, that kind of vibe. So dude, here's what I like to see. Watch, do the pastors like each other and have fun?

There's gotta be some joy in there, right?

Do they like people and have fun? Are people happy in the lobby? That's a fair question, dude.

Great question.

But free. I mean, you're talking about Live Free as a podcast, but is there a sense of freedom where people can just be themselves, man?

That's it, dude.

That's it.

That's great.

So what happens, a lot of people on their search for a perfect church, they never get to enjoy a good Good one. Watch out. Watch out. All right, let me go to the next one. Ed, I'm going to start with you. This person said— go to the first question, the first one we were going to do. This is a toughie, dude. They said, our oldest son is gay and the only way he sees Jesus is through us. Where do we draw the line?

I think ultimately there's a big difference between affirming and accepting.

Oh, click on that.

Yeah. I think ultimately we're not affirming the choice of the lifestyle.

Yeah.

But we're choosing to accept, man.

Yeah. Because we got friends here.

Yeah, man. You fiercely love that child. That's right, brother. And you leave that door open. I was in a conversation with a father who was just so adamant about making sure that their child knew the scripture and where he stood convictionally on homosexuality. And I looked at him and I said, I think she knows.

That's good.

I think she knows where you stand. I said, but I just heard you say that you're going to boycott her soccer games. I said, the gospel in this moment is to go, she knows where I stand, but I'm going to choose to stand in these moments in that in the bleacher and convey that you and I may disagree on this, but the one thing that we will not disagree on is the deep love I have for you, bro.

Come on.

That's how I'd answer that question.

Yeah. That's like, I like that vibe of like, hey man, if you're the dad or you're the mom, I think your posture is, if somebody's going to break this relationship, it's going to have to be you. Ain't going to be me. Somebody's going to cut this thing off. Going to have to be you. Chuning, what you got?

I mean, I don't know why, Yeah. 'Cause there's, you know, when you read this, there's a person behind it.

That's right.

Who actually wrote every word here. And there's a word here where it says, or it says the only way he sees Jesus is through us. And that word us is what stuck out. And I would, we're sitting here, we're talking about the church. And I would just say, man, your oldest son may never find themselves in a church building, But this is what makes the church so unique and valuable and special. Because if all you do is you come to church, and I'm not saying you are, I don't know who you are, but if all you do is come to church, but the church isn't also coming to you, then you are alone in that. And it is just us. But man, what I just see is I just see so many, when I read, when I read Romans, uh, you know, Romans 12, when you read the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Corinthians 13 and 14, what you see is that it's one body, many members. And there's only so many gifts that you have. And, but the, the gifts of the Spirit are evident within the church. No, there is no lacking in the church, right?

And so, man, get your kids around the church. And that, oh, that doesn't mean bring them to Sunday.

That's right. Right?

That doesn't mean bring them to Sunday. That's where I think you just gotta be really careful. For, for us personally, you know, one of the best things we've ever done is we've just made sure we told our kids, it's not about you going to church, it's that you are the church. And we're gonna make sure that the church comes to you. Your friends, friends are gonna be the people in our church and whether you want it or not, man, they're gonna force themselves into your life. And so I would just encourage whoever's on the other side of this is you're not alone. It's not just you. I mean, you have the Church of Jesus Christ, the greatest institution in the world, the most powerful one.

Can I make this comment?

Yeah.

Where do we draw the line? I think there's probably a different way to look at this is to go, this journey is not about drawing lines. It's about a different direction. It's like, it's not, here's the line. It doesn't mean that truth does not establish lines.

Right.

But it is more about what, how does Jesus, like this, it's not a vertical line, it's a horizontal line. It's a vertical line of like, what would Jesus do in this moment? Like, how would he minister in this space? Because I think what Christians do so many times is, times we draw lines and we're like, I can't cross that line because of my convictional persuasion. And the truth is, yes, draw lines of truth. But at the same time, think about John 8, the woman caught in the act of adultery.

Yeah.

He speaks this word over her and says, where are your accusers now? But he doesn't say, go and sin no more. And then neither do I condemn you. He actually says it first, flipped it. Neither— he goes, I don't condemn you, so go and sin no more.

Yeah.

And I think we have a tendency to flip it. It's like, if you choose to stop this lifestyle, then I won't condemn you. But it's like, no, let me show you what no condemnation looks like in Christ Jesus. Stand on truth. Most loving thing I could tell you is truth, but make sure at the same time I choose not to stop loving you in the midst of all of this.

Come on, man. Dude, I'll put a bow on a couple things. One, if you're a parent, I think the answer to that question really depends on the age of the kid. If you're talking a middle schooler, I think the answer to that question is real different than if you're talking about your 34-year-old grown son.

That's wise, man.

Very frankly, and dude, if you guys disagree, that's not going to hurt my feelings. This was a conversation with some pastors. If you got a 13-year-old and they're going, hey, I think I'm this gender, or I think I'm gay, whatever it is. Honestly, man. Trinity, I'm going to find it and then we're going to put the link in the show notes. There was a Gospel Coalition article about parents getting their kids out of a, they called it the transgender cult. And basically they had a 13-year-old and basically what they realized is this thing functions like a cult. It's relationally reaffirmed and it's like social contagion. And basically what they found out, by the way, a little parenting tip, most of the time if you change your kids' inputs, you're going to change your kids' outcomes. Just a little heads up. Change inputs, you're going to change outcomes.

Yeah.

outcomes. So if you have a young kid, I'd say, man, get them out of whatever relational networks are putting that into them.

That's great.

And you're going to see some things probably start to change. I don't think that's the situation that—

No.

So a couple things I'd say is one, the fact that there's relational friction does not necessarily mean you're doing anything wrong. That is why Jesus— it was actually intended, if you read it in context in the gospels, it's actually Jesus is comforting the disciples when he says, hey, I didn't come to bring peace, but a sword. In other words, he's going, hey man, you guys are having some family members draw away from you. Let me comfort you. That doesn't necessarily mean you did anything wrong.

That's right.

And he's, I came to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother-in-law. So bro, it's like one thing I think Christians have to realize is Jesus is not just the Prince of Peace. He's also going to be the point of conflict in every relationship you have with someone who doesn't submit to him. So it's like, hey man, you got to expect that a little bit. But then to what Ed said, I think Joby Martin said this. He said, whenever somebody walks up to him after church and he's like, they tell me they're gay, he says, the first thing I tell 'em is the biggest lie the enemy's gonna tell you is that you and me can't be friends. Bro, that's so wise.

That's great.

That's such a wise thing to say.

So great.

So it's like, hey man, if somebody's gonna cut this relationship off, it's gonna have to be you. Last thing I'd say, they said where to draw the line. You're probably going, And so what do I allow? Or what do I attend? The line is sin.

Come on, say that again.

The line is sin. So I'm going to say something that's just a little straightforward. If y'all don't agree, that's okay. Just pin it on me. But it's like, hey, if you got a couple, a same-sex couple, that's your kid and they want to come over for dinner, was eating at your house a sin? No, but 2 dudes sleeping with each other in your bedroom is a sin. So yes to this, I'm really sorry, I love you, but you can't do that in our house. It's like, if you come up for Thanksgiving, here's my line.

Those are boundaries.

Those are boundaries. Those are boundaries. Yeah. And then last thing I say is I'll just encourage it because I see this happen to parents is out of a well-meaning desire to stay connected to their kid, they abandon their convictions to connect with the kid and they start to what Ed said, they start start affirming things when they shouldn't be affirming these things. They should just be trying to embrace the person. And let me just say it, don't hop in the pit with them in what you start to affirm, because once you hop in, nobody's on the outside to pull them out in a decade.

Exactly.

Is it good?

It's great.

I mean, it's dead on.

How much time we got? What do you think?

Huh?

We good? All right, let's keep rapid firing these. All right.

Tune Hit me.

Here's a grenade. Can a wife correct her husband? This is what they said. By the way, this is not my question.

This is very important that Jana did not ask this question.

Submitted by Jana Howard.

Beth, I see this. My wife's name is Beth. Beth, I see what you wrote. I see what you wrote, honey.

Okay.

This is— can a wife— now obviously this is coming from— we talk about, hey, husband's your job to lead your home. Here's what that means. Doesn't mean— Jan has really done some work just trying to teach, just straightforward. Here's what the Bible does say. Your job is to follow your husband. So this is a fair question. Can a wife correct her husband? How? Supporting scripture.

Okay. First, the overwhelmingly correct answer is no. Never.

No, just kidding.

Just kidding. Just kidding. Never.

I am so sorry.

Maybe it was a joke. It's a joke. I mean, absolutely. I would say there's no doubt in my mind a man cannot fully be who he has been called to be without a wife calling him into these things.

We got Bible verses for this.

Yes, we got Bible verses for this, honestly, all over the place. But the first— where— first place you'll see it is you'll see it in the— in Genesis, where the wife is considered the helper, and that helper actually coordinates or points to very similarly the word helper that we would find as being a helper of the Lord. Like, the Holy Spirit is our helper. You know, we in my home—

Which is why our wives' voice sounds so much like the Holy Spirit.

Sure does, man. It sure does.

That's a fact, bro. That's it. I never thought about that before. That works. It does work like that in my life.

And it's so frustrating. And in the same way— and in the same— it's so frustrating because she's always right. But no, no, but I would say, and in the same way in which oftentimes the corrective voice of God that we hear, we want to shun. We oftentimes want to do that with our wives as well. And so we've got to just be very careful to not do that. There's been so many times in my own, in my own life where my wife has called me on things or corrected me on things in which I did not want to hear, only to find in time it was the very thing I needed to hear.

Exactly.

And then she had to bear the brunt of my defensiveness or manipulation. And that's just, I'm not allowing her to play the role that God has commanded her to play in my life.

Well, bro, I'll talk. I'm gonna talk to this wife and through this wife's question to husbands. So when Chuneng uses the word helper, like, hey man, if you're listening, we got a ton of people who listen. It's like they never read the Bible before. And that's why actually we love this. So they may go like, helper, what are you talking about? That's a Bible verse.

Yeah.

Not a doormat.

That's a Bible verse. That's Genesis 1 through 3. The creation order is, man, what we see is husband is a loving head of the home. This is my language. I'm not pinning this on these guys. Loving head, wife, respectful helper. That's what you get. That's in Genesis. That's the literal language. The Hebrew is literally ezer kenegdo. It means, you see it throughout the Old Testament, necessary ally. In other words, I, dude, and that'll pull some emotion out of my heart thinking about Jana. I cannot win the battles God put me on this planet to win without that helper.

That's great.

That person by my side. So what I'd say to husbands, to what you said, is like, my wife's correcting me. I thought I was the head. Well, hey bro, don't be surprised when your helper starts helping.

Yeah.

That's her thing. That's why God gave her to you. That's great.

I think ultimately when it comes to correction, I do think sometimes wives don't understand the significance of their words because at the end of the day—

Fact.

I think we could take on every lion, every giant, but to come home and to find— so there has to be what I would say a tempered reality of correction, the tone, the tact. There's a way to do this that's Spirit-led. Because I also think there's a lot of women that will correct a man and not realize they're crushing their man.

Well said, Ed.

And I would flip this and go, I would say that the encouragement from a wife is, for me personally, I have this note that I just found this in my Bible a couple days ago that my wife slid in my— before I went out to preach. And I don't know if you—

Well, can I hold that up to the camera? I want them to see this. Look at that, bro.

That's—

is that— yeah, you can't zoom in. I can't.

Let me take a picture of it later.

Yeah, we'll take a picture of it and put it up. That's amazing.

Yeah. And what I would say is when she writes, well done, babe. I love you. I'm so very proud of the man you are, is those words just give life more than—

They hit so deep.

It's just different. Which means on the flip side of that, if it feels sharp, sharp, not redemptive in correction. The same words that give that life are the same words that could take so much away from a man. And it doesn't mean that a woman should ever walk in fear of, did I say it the right way? Did I crush him? No, no. I just think it's an understanding that the weight of a woman's words are way more valuable than you actually think.

That's right.

Because men have a horrible way of sometimes telling their wives or the significant woman in their life, how much they mean to them.

Bro, dude, let me— I want to affirm that so many times, by the way. And here's a quick caveat: we're not talking about like unique— we're not talking about abuse situations. We're not talking about like, hey man, that's still gonna be a little different. There's some moments where it's like, yeah, you do kind of bow up. Yeah.

Can I give an example?

Please.

Okay. This is what I mean by a correction. I'll give you a real example.

I'm gonna do the same thing. Let's trade stories.

Okay. I get real convicted about the fact that I need to walk through some cultural issues in our church that were going to be divisive at a lot of levels. We're a multicultural church, multi-generational church, and we needed to walk through some things. Black Lives Matter. We needed to talk about transgenderism. We needed to talk about homosexuality. And we did a series called Trending. So 5—

I listened to the whole thing.

5 weeks of this. I said this to our church. I go, my first opening remarks, because the room is just, you can feel the tension. I go, this series is going to purge our church.

We call that a space maker sermon.

Okay. I come off stage. My wife, who's 5 foot tall, she'll tell you she's 5'1. She goes, let me tell you something. She goes, don't ever say that again. I go, Hey, she goes, this sermon series is not going to purge our church. This sermon series is going to build our church on the truth of God. But you see the difference? Correction, but with encouragement.

She's putting steel in your spine.

Oh my gosh.

Right.

So when she said that, I got goosebumps. And then when our church grew because of the sermon series, she wasn't the one that looked at me and went, I told you, She just sat quietly.

Good job.

And writes notes of going, well done.

Bro, that's that thing of like, and it does have a bit of an edge to it, but reality's undefeated. It's like the whole helper concept. Every man marries either a launch pad or a lid.

Hey, she'll make or break your ministry.

Yeah.

You either married a launch pad or a lid. And hey ladies, what that means is you get to decide. Am I his launchpad? Am I going to be his lid? And the reason that the book of— particularly, you go read Proverbs, and then honestly, you even trace this theme in the New Testament. There's so much about the words of a wife. Again, I'm just talking Bible verses. I'm trying to be a jerk. There's a reason Proverbs, it talks so much about— and this is what it says, this Bible verse. It's like a nagging wife.

Yeah.

You'd rather live on the corner of a house and you'd rather be waterboarded by a than living. And kind of literally what it is—

Because it can break a man.

And the whole point is, here's what I would say to this precious wife is, first of all, the fact that you asked this question in the way that you asked it, that tells me you are a woman of noble character.

That's great.

That's a woman who wants to build her man.

Proverbs 31, who wants her man to be known in the gates.

Boom. And what that means, known in the gates, for this little Bible nugget, is that's where like the city council of the most respected men of the city, they would meet under the city gates. So Proverbs 31 is going, you want to be the kind of wife who you're so much his launchpad that you propel him into being one of the most respected dudes in the whole city.

Which is the helpmate definition.

Boom. And then so what you get is the gentle caution is what the Bible's doing is, hey, make sure you don't nag. That kind of thing is just acknowledging the reality. You cannot disrespect a man into respectability.

I'm telling you, man, the dude is one of the smartest guys I know.

I was going to say, read tweet after tweet.

It's X now, but it's like—

Stop, dude. You can't. So what that's saying is you can't like, hey man. So I'll just say what we do in the Howardton house is I did it in the sermon 2 weeks ago, is we say this dumb little thing in our house all the time. We're either going to have hummingbird tongues or buzzard tongues. A buzzard can fly over an entire— or let me do hummingbird. A hummingbird can fly over an entire desert where everything's dead. and it'll find one. If it sees one flower that's alive, it'll focus on that and fall on that.

Yeah.

A buzzard will do the exact opposite. It could fly over an entire rainforest of vibrant things. It'll see one dead thing, focus on that, fall on that. I think what a wife should ask is, what is my tongue and the words towards my husband? Is it a hummingbird tongue? Hey man, even if there's some stuff in his life, he's real jacked up too and needs Jesus too, just like me. And he knows it. But are you the type of wife who's like, man, as best as I can, my default setting is, man, let me find the areas where God has given him grace and point that out.

That's great.

And use my words to bring that out. Or man, am I accidentally falling into that buzzard tongue thing where it's like, man, there's evidence of grace all over his life, but you tend to only find the thing he's not good at and descend on that and focus on that? You don't want that to be your default setting.

Come on.

And so I think, hey, how do you correct him? First of all, you do. I think that's your job as a helper. I think as best you can, here's what you want to do. You can't disrespect a man into respectability. So how do you change him? You give him a crown and he'll become a king. So what your wife did, bro, is what she essentially did. That's a great case study. Essentially, here's what she said. She said, Ed Newton, you are a Spirit-filled ambassador of heaven. When you speak, this church is going to follow you. And you know what she did is she corrected you by putting a crown on your head. And then you grew into the crown she put on here. Give him a crown, he'll become a king.

That's great.

As best as you can, I think you want to, hey man, let me find a way to— it's almost like encourage you in the right direction. And then yes, there will be moments where you need to be like, hey babe, I love you. I love you. I do think you missed it on that.

Right.

And I don't mean to hurt you, but let's talk. I do think you do.

But there's a difference between being called out and called up.

Amen.

And then Proverbs 31, I mean, the Jewish tradition is every Sabbath they would sing it over— the husband would sing it over their wives and daughters.

Come on, man.

So what would make a woman want her man to be known in the gates? Sing Proverbs 31 to her every Saturday.

Wow.

And see what happens.

Come on, man.

I've never done that.

Have Well, we have a tradition at our church.

Proverbs 31?

No, we don't. But every Father's Day, every Mother's Day, and I think just the power of words, Proverbs 18, life and death in the tongue. Every Mother's Day, all the men of our house, of our church stand up and we read Proverbs 31 over the women and the daughters. Then on Father's Day, we ask all the women of the house to read scripture over our— because there's a beauty that comes in calling up. But in that call, and I love how the scripture reminds us, they may not be there yet, but could we believe that they can and speak words of affirmation to the person that they're becoming? And I think that's the role of not just a man towards a wife, but a wife towards a man. Because if they could wake— if every couple could wake up every day and go, I'm just going to overwhelm with honor, outdo one another with honor.

That's right.

If I could choose to speak moments of blessing, I think it's for the edification. And we watch the strength that takes place in a man.

I'm going to put a bow on this and let's move on to the next couple rapid fires. So here's the last thing I'd say to this question for all marriages. What you want to do is you want to create an environment where correction is welcomed so that it's like, oh man, I asked them to do that. So people know this at Lake Pointe, me and Janet got this little thing. We do it once a month on date night. night where in the car on the way home—

This is so good, by the way.

Yep. In the car on the way home. And by the way, you want it on the way home because you don't want to do it while you're hangry and your blood sugar is low. So you do it on the car on the way home.

Well said.

And we both answer this. We both answer this question and I got to go first. She asks me, what are 3 ways I've been blessing you and what's one way I could bless you more? And then we flip it. Now here's the genius to There's a little science to it. By the time she has answered the 3 ways that I have been blessing her, I feel like the greatest dude in the world. I'm crushing it. So I'm encouraged, that kind of thing. And then after all the encouragement, what's one way I could bless you more? Essentially what you're really doing is you're going, where am I stinking as a husband? That's what you're really doing, but you're framing it in the positive. What's a way I could bless you more? And then we flip it and then I do the same. And what you're doing is your book of Proverbs says that what wise people do is they invite correction. So then you're creating this environment in your marriage where it's like, hey, wide open gate. Come on, help me.

Help me.

And then it's in the context of we're for each other and it's in the context of encouragement. Let me move us on. We got to do these others a little faster. Go to the next one. I got married in June. Chuning, you're going to start. I got married in June. My husband is a pastor. How can I best support him?

I mean, honestly, if we just go back to some of the things we were talking about before, I think the encouragement is like, Um, Keller used to talk about a ratio. He used to be like, can we just try like 10 to 1?

Yeah.

You know, like for us dummies out here, it's just like, can we just try 10 to 1? If you wanna encourage your husband, it meant speak words of encouragement over him. I don't think he probably needs as much as like your hands in labor. Not to say that you don't serve the church and do all those things, but man, like he doesn't probably need you like helping him write a message or, you know, like, yeah, just those things. Right. It's more, the more you could elevate and lift up his spirit through your words of encouragement, the best. Because what isn't often spoken about is how often the church and the world love to tear a pastor down.

Yeah, that's right.

Right.

There's always a benchmark to try to hit that we never find ourselves hitting.

That's never happened to me before.

And so to be a safe space for him to come home and to be well received and encouraged to go and conquer the next day, I just feel like that's that's the best thing you could do? And then we could get practical as we have the conversation.

But James 5 talks about using anointing oil as a mark of consecration. And my wife often will take oil and anoint my head before I go to preach as to say, go to war. And stand in the power of the Holy Spirit. And there's just something about my wife, man. And I got a prayer team that does that, but there's just something about my wife that goes, yeah, come on, man. We're believing and I stand with you. And I just think it's just a small— it may feel weird, but once more, the Holy Spirit is not weird. We just make things weird. Yeah, that's right.

That's what I'd say. Because we already answered that one, I'm going to move us on.

Okay.

We kind of hit that in the correction.

Add the correctiveness to it though. It can't just be only encouragement.

Yeah. Right?

If you really wanna support him, don't let his head get so inflated because he has a platform and position. You need to be the one that in many ways keeps him sober-minded.

The things that stand out to me immediately on what you just said, one, Janet is a vault. I never gotta worry about Janet's mouth getting leaky.

Same.

So dude, I will say, watch out. There's a bunch of pastor's wife horror stories on that right there.

Yeah.

That's huge. I will just say one of the best ways Jana helps me is she's just a woman. She just walks around being a godly woman. She loves her Bible. She loves her family. She respects her husband. She loves her Lord. It's just, she is the type of woman that I can say to any woman in the church, if you kind of do that, it's going to go real well. Nothing beats that.

That's great.

And then me and Jana take a 1.6-mile walk together every single night when the kids go down. And she's my consigliere. There is no ministry decision that we make that's appropriate. Obviously, there's some things you have to do in confidence because who's involved that I don't run it past Jana.

That's great.

She's wise. All right, let me do these last things.

1.6 miles is long in the cold world.

I was thinking about that.

Well, it's warm here. It's warm here. It's chilly in Boston. Ed, do you lose your salvation if you stay in habitual sin? This woman asks.

No. And let me give context. I think there are moments of seasons where we lose our ever-loving mind.

Hmm.

Sin by definition is fulfilling illegitimate needs and— or legitimate needs in illegitimate ways. And I think there's moments where we find ourselves deceived, we find ourselves in situations. Now, if there is a, let's just say, perpetuity of habitual sin from the moment you said I've given my life to Christ, and there is habitual sin from a moment of salvation to the current day in reality, and there is no evidence and no fruit, and there's been no convictional repentance at all in your life, and you are okay to a point of license to sin, then I think we have to ask, are you a lip professor, not a heart possessor?

There you go.

Okay. But in this, when we use the word stay, Everybody's got a different word of stay. Is that 6 weeks? Is that 6 days? Is that 6 minutes?

Is that somebody who struggles with an addiction for 6 years?

Correct. And this is what we have to wrestle with is to go, I think, as, because somebody would say, judge the fruit. But I would say, broaden the scope of this. So many times we take a moment and we zoom in on this one moment, broaden the scope, look at the totality of the work.

Yeah. Junie?

Yeah.

I mean, I'm just sitting here reading Romans 8 right now. For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. And it says, for the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God. It cannot submit to the law of God. Indeed, it just doesn't have the ability to do that. And the mere fact that a person is asking this question is evidence that the Spirit is in there.

That's right.

I'm believing that where I'm at is not where I want to be. And I think it's just evidence that the Spirit has made you alive. Because if you were only flesh and there was no Spirit, you would not even be concerned about this question.

I want you to restate that. What he just said is theologically significant. You wouldn't have a battle with sin unless you had both flesh and Spirit inside of you.

Exactly.

So, the mere First of all, in my experience as a pastor, 95% of the time when somebody asks that question, the fact that they're asking it is my greatest evidence that they are almost certainly saved. Because if they weren't, they wouldn't care about Christ.

They don't care about it.

Unless they're asking that for a friend.

There you go.

And they're like, I don't see the fruit. And I think in that moment, that's where I think you have to go, man, Again, broad, just pull back and look at the totality because there are moments that someone will get snagged in sin.

Yes.

There's a moment where Satan seeks to sift you like wheat.

Yes.

And we could probably look at that and go, man, that was Simon Peter.

Yeah.

On a lot of moments where he got snagged in sin.

Yeah.

But he came out of it.

That's right.

So that's just my thought.

So one thing, I'll just do a quick, a gentle theological correction. She's asking, do you lose your salvation? I think all 3 of us are on the same page here.

Yeah. There's an assumption that salvation's there.

That ain't possible.

Not at all.

So what I would say theologically is you can't lose your salvation, but you can fake it.

Hey. Yep.

That's Judas. Everybody else is going, is it I? Is it I, Lord? And then Judas does the, is it I, Rabbi? Can't lose it, but you can fake it. And dude, I'll just encourage you that this person to encourage you. Man, the biggest surprise for me as a 43-year-old Christian, been walking with the Lord for now over 30 years. My biggest surprise is I thought I'd be farther along in my sanctification than I am.

Hello.

So annoying.

Honestly, I did. And it's like, there are times where I look at my life and I struggle with that same thing for the millionth time. And I'm like, I'm like, what is wrong with me?

Until you read Romans 7.

This is where I'm going.

Yeah.

And so I think some people would go, whoa, whoa, a pastor struggles with something, makes them go, what is wrong with me? Well, guess where I got that? Romans 7. The Apostle Paul is looking at his life going, wretched man that I am, who will deliver me from this body of death? I keep on doing the things that I do not want to do and the things that I want to do, I can't do them.

Yep.

Yeah.

And so now here's what I would say to this person is Ed said, hey man, zoom out.

Yep.

It's just like the stock market. It's like it may go through 2 years of a decline, but zoom out and over 30, the trend line is this.

Yep.

So what I would say is the book of Proverbs says, a righteous man falls 7 times, but he rises again.

That's great.

So listen, here's a big idea. Whether you have been made righteous in Christ is not evidenced by the fact that you never fall. You may fall 7 times or 70 times 7 times. What is evidence that you have been made righteous in Christ is that you keep falling, but you keep getting up and looking at Jesus and going again.

That's great.

A fear of his absence is very usually a sign of his presence.

That's good.

There you go. All right, let me do the last one. Ed, this person said, my son of 45 years old is an atheist. I keep talking about the Bible, but he scoffs. What do I do? Keep on talking or pray?

I think there's a moment where the seeds have been planted, and I think this is the moment where it's pray. Be winsome. Keep the door open. Celebrate. Don't stop correcting.

That's right.

Continue to parent. And it's hard at 45 because most likely they have moved out. But I think you want them to come back into your home often. And if it's constantly like, I'm going to preach at you every time, I think there's a moment where you go, they'll stop coming back around. That would just be my immediate response is to go— you mentioned it earlier, the seed has been planted. And trust sovereignly that God's watering this seed. And here's the truth. Could we believe in faith that God has brought people into this man's life that are not in your circle? Who knows? It could be the barista, it could be the coworker, it could be somebody that you don't even know. And so let that— let you be the mom or the dad that's in the prayer closet interceding for your kid, that God, would you use somebody to speak to my kid? Because we've all had that moment as parents. I've been saying the same thing to my kid, and then somebody pops up and says something, and then your kid comes home.

And boom.

Like, I just heard the greatest thing. You're like, I've been telling you that for 45 years of your life.

Yeah.

You know, so that's what I would say. Be winsome. Irresistible influence right now is probably your greatest strategy.

Yeah. I mean, obviously pray, right? Like, pray. Uh, I don't know many people who got swept into the kingdom because they all of a sudden— the theology all of a sudden clicked as much as the world has beaten something out of them that they didn't know where else to go. And so I would say, like, if you're talking as parents, man, just continue to love those kids. Be a display of the gospel to those kids. Display the good news, right? Obviously, like what you said, the seed has already been planted. You've already proclaimed, you've already told. They know the verses as well as you do at this point, right? 45 years old. He's already got his arguments laid out, you know, most likely. And so I would just say, always keep the door open.

Mm-hmm.

But also don't think that you're going to— you don't convince somebody into the kingdom. That's just not possible. The Spirit of the living God has to come to indwell, convict, draw that person to himself. And then for you, just feel free. That's not your responsibility. This is the Lord's doing. And the Lord says, you train a child up in the Lord, in time, it says, like in time, in due time, they'll come. When they're older, it says, they'll come. And so—

Can I just add to that?

Yeah, add to it.

It's not too late.

Hey, bro.

I just got to say this to a mom or a dad. It's not too late.

Thank you.

Don't give up. It's not over.

Come on.

Can we literally pray for this person right now?

We're going to in a second.

Okay.

We're going to in a second. But dude, let me just, I'll put a bow on it and then tuning. I want you to close the pod praying for that person.

Yeah.

Okay. So dude, thank you for saying that. It's like, first of all, I don't know what this person's name is. It looks like a mom.

Yeah.

So I want you— I'm talking to you. I'm talking to one person right now. And you've read your Bible. And I want to ask you the question, in the story of the parable of the prodigal son, what did the dad do wrong? Nothing. Because in the story, the dad represents God. And what some of you, maybe you need to hear, and I don't know your story, I don't know the situation. What some people need to hear is your son is a prodigal son and you need to hear, it's not your fault. If some of you need to hear, you didn't do nothing wrong. We live in a broken world where people get to make their own choices. So that's number one. And our Lord specializes in bringing prodigal kids home.

That's great.

So story ain't over. Ain't over till it's over. I'll just give a— this is what I tell people in the lobby. This is a frequent question. So 1 Peter 3 answers a tangent, like a question that rhymes. where it's like the wife has an unbelieving husband that's out on the faith. And Peter's going, what do you do there? And he essentially says, serve them and respect them over the top. And then he uses this phrase, so that they may be won without a word by the respectful and pure conduct of their wife. So I think you can take 1 Peter 3, apply it to your situation and go, okay, Love is the greatest apologetic. It says one without a word. There might be some moments where you pray, ask the Holy Spirit and go, man, I need to back off the words for a minute, maybe a few years and go, man, I'm going to make them feel so loved by a Christian. They just want to be around me.

Yeah.

And then here's a little rule that you should pray and ask the Holy Spirit and ask if it's a good rule. And if he says no, then ignore everything I'm about to say. Give yourself permission to only once per year, once per year, give yourself permission to ask a gentle question. Hey, y'all, I'd be a terrible mom if I never asked anything new in your faith journey. And if they say no, then you're like, okay, just wanted to check. I love you.

Yeah.

If they bite and give you an opening, awesome. Run through, but limit yourself to maybe a once a year thing. So that you're putting a governor on what Newton said over here, that you're not pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, and just see what the Lord does. And then you pray because, like Tuning said, the deepest problem is not intellectual, it's spiritual. The New Testament, I'm quoting the New Testament, the God of this world has blinded the minds of unbelievers to keep them from seeing the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. So the other thing you do is you stinking assault heaven.

Yeah.

You get in your prayer room and you Hunt them down. Give them no rest.

Visit them in dreams and visions.

Yes, Lord.

Make them uncomfortable. Yes, Lord.

Yes.

And then when they come over, you put on your little apron and make their favorite cake. Yeah.

100%.

Chuning, will you pray for this lady? Come on.

Right here. Right here.

Hold my hand, dude. Come on, bro. Father, we just recognize right now that this is a person. This is not just theoretical. These are not just people just writing stuff in. There is a 45-year-old son that is out there and a mother of that 45-year-old. that is in the war right now. And so we just pray right now, Holy Spirit, that you would invade that man's life, Lord, that you would send believers his way, that you would give this mother a praying spirit, that she would just come to the throne and with confidence she would come to the throne.

Yes, Lord.

And God, we pray that you would save this man, that you would save him, God, that the eyes would be open, the ears would no longer be deaf, and that gospel would go forth and be understood and be received. And the Spirit of the living God will come and fill this man Even right now in this very moment, we join together as one, unified as one, believing, God, that you have the ability to do what we cannot do, what no mother can do, but only you can do. You can save the sinner. You can call the prodigal home. You can, you can mess with the mind and the brain in such a way where the only thing that matters is what's going on in the heart, and that the Spirit of God needs to be in that heart. And so, Holy Spirit, right now we ask that you move in power and that you come, and that we believe right now—

Yes, we do.

That one day an email's gonna gonna come through.

Yes.

And a testimony will be stated, and it's going to come from a, a man who one day was that 45-year-old atheist, and God, you radically stepped in and saved him. We're praying and we believe, we believe by faith that that email is coming in at some point in time. We ask that it comes quickly.

Yes, God.

In the name of Jesus, we agree together. Amen.

Amen.

Amen, bro.

Thank you.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Thank you.

Do we love you, bro?

Love you.

Live free, brother.

Live free.