This episode of I've Had It features host Jennifer Welch speaking with Palestinian activist Mahmoud Khalil about his family's displacement after the Nakba, growing up in a Syrian refugee camp, and his studies in New York. They discuss the Columbia protests after October 7, the guest's claim that the demonstrations were overwhelmingly peaceful, and the competing accounts of Hamas and Israeli policy.
The conversation then turns to his arrest by federal agents in March, his 104 days in an ICE detention center, and the legal fight over his release, which is now heading to the Supreme Court.
In this episode Jennifer Welch, Mahmoud Khalil
This transcript of Mahmoud Khalil's account of his arrest and 104 days in ICE detention was made with HappyScribe technology, the same kind behind its notes for Microsoft Teams meetings.
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The officers tell me, like, "Oh, your student visa has been revoked." And I was shocked. I was like, I don't have a student visa, I'm a permanent resident, a lawful permanent resident, and— And he got confused, he called somebody, like, oh, he had, like, a green card.
Even they were incompetent.
Very incompetent. That's— I think that's the most dangerous thing about this administration.
Joining me today is Palestinian activist Mahmoud Khalil. He is the author of a new book, "No Land to Stand On: Notes from Detention," where he writes about the 104 days in ICE detention. Mahmoud, thank you so much for joining me.
Thank you so much, Jen, for having me.
All right, let's start kind of at the beginning. I think a lot of my listeners are curious people, and we want to learn about different experiences, not just that Americans have, but people all over the world. So you're Palestinian, but you grew up in a refugee camp in Syria. What— what prompted for you and your family to be refugees?
Absolutely. I mean, my grandparents were part of over 750,000 Palestinians who were expelled from their villages and towns around 1948, around the Nakba, what we call it the catastrophe, but also the establishment of the State of Israel. And as a result, a lot of villages were burned down, were emptied of their inhabitants, and my grandparents were part of this refugee group that went to Syria.
So they walked to a nearby town in Syria, they walked like less than 40 miles away because they thought they would go back to their— to their village, and they never— they never went back. So they lived in tents for a number of years, then they— they lived in mud houses when it was clear that, you know, they needed something a little bit more permanent. And that's where my parents got married, in a mud house, and then they built their own house, only to be later, you know, basically they had to leave after the Syrian War to Europe, and they had to leave to Lebanon.
But this is, I think, a story of now over 5 million Palestinians who are denied the right to return to their hometowns in Palestine.
So that takes it back to the very beginning, which I think a lot of people don't understand. So Palestinians were living in this land, and then people decided this is now going to be Israel, and they were violently pushed out of their homes or killed or moved. And that expulsion is called the Nakba, N-A-K-B-A, and Palestinian people refer to it as the Great Catastrophe.
Exactly. And to us, you know, it's not one event. The Nakba did not only happen in 1948, it continued to happen since then, but also before then. Now, some— I mean, the Israeli propaganda would say that you just left because of the war, the Arab armies promised you that you will come back after they defeat Israel. But that's, to me, like, it's propaganda. But also Israeli historians also debunked these claims, because a lot of people were pushed out before even Arab armies started to advance toward— toward Palestine.
And even if so, they still have the right to go back. Like now, any person around the world who can convert to Judaism can go back to, you know, can claim the right of return to Israel and go live in Israel. While me, my family, and the 5 million Palestinian refugees like me, we don't have that right. We don't have even the right to visit Palestine. Like, my— my parents are now like 70 years old, they've never been to Palestine.
Where are they now?
So now they are in Europe after having to leave Syria.
So you lived in Syria, and you grew up in a refugee camp. And what is— what is the childhood like growing up in a refugee camp?
So all in all, I think the refugee camp was like, I would say, like working class mostly, but below like middle class.
Yeah.
For the most part, all these people came to the camp with— with nothing. And first, you know, they set up their tents, and then they had, like, to— to build the infrastructure of the camp. So my childhood was really, you know, like, we only had paved streets, like in 2007 or '08, like when I was— when I was 12 years old. The same with the internet, we only got it, like, very late. The same with electricity, of course, for my grandparents, they got it like in the '70s or the '80s.
And that's, I think, the situation in the camp, like, it's mostly managed by UNRWA, which is the United Nations Refugee and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees. They offer some— the schooling, the medical centers, like just the basic— the basic necessities and needs in the community. But because most of these refugees came literally with nothing, like my grandparents, like, used to own lands in Palestine and used to farm it, they came to Syria with literally nothing.
So they had to work in— with their Syrian neighbors, basically, like working as daily workers. My father was— was a welder, he worked in— in also around— around the camp. But that made us, or made my family really value education, seeing education as our capital. We didn't have anything, no money, nothing, but they felt that, you know, education would—
Liberate.
Would liberate us in one way or another.
When you're little, you know, we have— we'll say, what do you want to be when you grow up? So when you were little, living in the Syrian refugee camp, what did you want to be when you grew up?
I mean, when I was a— when I was a kid, I wanted to be a pilot, like just like, you know.
Yeah.
Any other— other kids. And I went actually to aviation school.
You did?
In Syria, but I couldn't continue because of the war.
Yeah.
And they had to flee to— to Lebanon. So I never— I never actually studied, you know, beyond that first— first year, or it was like the very beginning of it. But— and then I— when I was in Lebanon, like, that's when I was like 18 years old, and I started to— to realize that what I want to do is, like, to actually work in public service. So in Lebanon, I worked in— in— with Syrian refugees, building schools for thousands of Syrian refugees.
So let's just— I'm sorry to stop you there. So the Nakba happens in 1948, and this creates decade after decade of misplaced Palestinian refugees. A lot of you were then in Syria, and then Syria falls apart because of Assad, and now we have a Syrian refugee crisis. And some of these are in Lebanon, which is now currently being bombed by Israel. So I would imagine now there's another refugee crisis of Lebanese.
Is that— is that correct?
It's very correct. And, you know, like, for Palestinians during the Nakba, they did not only go to Syria. Like half a million ended up in Syria. I mean, now in total, but they— a lot of them went to Jordan, Lebanon, some in Gaza, and the West Bank. Like the Palestinians who are now, we call them Gazans, they are not Gazans, they are Palestinians from— from Jaffa, Akker, and— and Be'er Sheiba, like they are not from Gaza. It only happened that my family decided to go north.
They could have, you know, gone south and ended up in Gaza or the West Bank. So a lot of Palestinians were— I mean, the Palestinian society was really, I would say, shattered because of Israel's existence as a whole.
Yeah.
And whether they are in Lebanon, and we have— all of us have different— different documents, also different rights. Like in Syria, you know, I keep saying I'm Palestinian-Syrian because Syria does not give Syrian citizenship to Palestinian refugees. The same in Lebanon. Palestinians in Lebanon, they don't have the same rights as the Lebanese, they can't work in every profession. Same in Jordan. Jordan, like, did better in giving citizenship to more Palestinians, but still there's that— that crisis of, like, not all Palestinians, they have that citizenship in— in these countries, which— which means that, you know, we lived all our lives, you know, second-class citizens at best.
Yeah.
Whether in Syria or in Lebanon, I never had, like, a passport in— when I was in Syria, or when I moved to Lebanon, it was a temporary travel document.
Right.
It's just like a document that you need to present to embassies to get visas everywhere.
So you applied to school to Colombia, to go to graduate school, and you get in. Are you so excited?
Oh, absolutely. I mean, that was— you know, Colombia was my dream school in a way that—
Yeah. What are you studying there?
I studied International and Public Affairs.
Okay.
Because I wanted to be— you know, to work in Palestinian diplomacy.
Yeah.
To work in Palestinian public service.
And when you arrived here, was it your first time in the United States?
No, I came here in 2018, I got another scholarship to come to Colombia to study an executive course.
Okay.
At the Colombia Business School.
Okay, so you get here, you're working on your graduate program, and you're going to Colombia, which is incredible. New York is incredible. That's where we are right now. And October 7th happens. And you, I think it was five days later, start protesting. So some people say that— I hear these complaints online from, you know, like pro-Israel people that, you know, this was only a few days after October 7th. So assume that my listeners that they don't know what we just have spelled out.
When that— when October 7th happened, and then by October 12th, I believe, you start organizing and protesting, what was it that you knew? What information did you have? Because the protesting now is completely justified. I mean, there are some nuts who will go, "No, it's not a genocide," but these people are denialists, etc. Every person with a set of eyeballs can see what happened and that these protests were very worthy cause. So what did you know on the 12th?
You know, on the 12th, there were at least 2,000 Palestinians killed by Israel in Gaza. Minimum. I don't have the exact number, but the minimum was 2,000 Palestinians killed by Israel. And what we knew, it was clear from the first day the intention of the Israeli government to commit a genocide. You know, you had all these statements, whether from the Prime Minister Netanyahu or from the Israeli president, and every political and military official in Israel saying that we will kill everyone in Gaza.
Like, it's not that we made that up. And it was clear what they were doing. They shot down.
And you know, those— that messaging exists in Israel, but it doesn't— but it doesn't— Americans don't hear that. You really have to dig to hear.
Absolutely.
What the Israeli government, like Smotrich and Gvir, that's not just on the news here. You really have to dig around to find these statements.
Yeah, that's part of the media manufacturing consent for genocide and, you know, like, not showing us what these politicians actually are calling for. Like now today, it's— there's the Israeli elections in Israel, and all the parties, the Israeli parties, are competing on who would repress Palestinians more. Like, that's what they're competing on. Like, they're not competing on creating peace. None of these leading parties are calling for any peace.
Like, they asked them— there was a clip asking all their leaders about, like, do you support a two-state solution or, like, creating a Palestinian state or peace with Palestinians. And every one of them, like, said no. One of them said, like, "Hell, no, we would never— we would never have that." And that's, I think, a big part of how this— the media dealt with Palestinians since ever, you know. Like, I would say, since even before the Nakba, you know, how they— because if you think about it, like, Palestinians did not speak English. You know, most of Zionists were American citizens or, you know, like, at least Westerners.
They know how to speak to the media. And that contributed a lot later with this country's commitment to Israel's security. So on October 12th, you know, that was five days after. And people should ask why, you know, Israel started bombing Gaza on October 7th. By October 8th, there was like at least a few hundred Palestinians killed by Israel. And we did not protest because we made a conscious decision that we want the Israeli and pro-Israel students to grieve, to have their time.
And until now, like, that— there was a decision that we would never counter-protest a vigil or an Israeli protest. We would— we wouldn't do that. Like, let them grieve. You know, it's— it's, you know, what happened, we realized, you know, that was a huge— we don't— we didn't— we did not want to interfere with that. But when we had our— our protest, immediately the pro-Israel campaign started, like, against the students, with counter-protests, but also with doxing. You had these doxing trucks going around campuses because the students issued statements, you know, about what happened on October 7th.
A lot of it was that this did not start on October 7th. You know, on October 6th, there was at least 250 Palestinians killed by Israel. By October 6th, there was like at least 250 Palestinians killed by Israel in the West Bank. Hamas was not in the West Bank.
Right.
A lot of them were children. And at that time, I was— I was interning at the UN and mainly following the situation in Palestine. And you could see that this is— this could never be sustainable. Like, Israel was invading Palestinian refugee camps in the West Bank. It was like Jenin and— and Tor Shemes, you know, like, really driving people out of the West Bank because to Israel, what was most important for them is to prevent any Palestinian state.
And that was— the essence of it is in the West Bank. That's why they ignored Gaza. That's why, you know, they failed miserably in their intelligence to expect, you know, the attacks, despite the signals.
Yeah, I've looked into this and a lot because I was very interested right after October 7th. There were reports, I think it was Egypt, you can correct me if I'm wrong, that was like, "Hey, like, they're going to attack," and everybody just ignored that. And then I read further that Netanyahu was funding Hamas, so he's like in cahoots with Hamas, Netanyahu, like, sending money through Qatar.
Yeah.
To Hamas. And then, you know, it's basically kind of like with the 9/11 in the United States. Like, there was enough intelligence to prevent it, especially considering how much money the United States of America spends on counter-intelligence and military. Israel spends equally as much. And it's— it's— it's bizarre that, you know, we hear about the Iron Dome and all of this, and these Palest— or Hamas people make it unlike dirt bikes.
Yeah. I mean, you know, I would push back a little bit about, like, them being in cahoots. Like, Israel facilitated the funding for Hamas because for them, that contributed into the division of the Palestinian society. So they wanted, you know, like, it's easier to vilify Hamas in front of Western— Western media, while they cannot do that with the Palestinian authority who's committed to peace process. And it's actually not only Egypt, it's like the— the— the Emirates, the OIE, the UAE, also, like, told—
So wait, help me understand this a little bit more. So Israel wanted a boogeyman, so they helped create Hamas?
So no, I would say they facilitated it. I wouldn't say, you know, Hamas is only less than 40 years old.
Right.
It was created in 1988. Before that, Israel was still brutalizing Palestinians. And Hamas came into power because— because the— the— the other political factions, Israel, like, attacked all political factions. You know, it was— at one time, it was the PFLP, which is a very, you know, like, Marxist, communist, I would say, like, group. Israel attacked it. Then they attacked the PLO, the Palestinian Liberation Movement, and Fatah, the leading Palestinian factions, who were committed to the peace process.
But Palestinians felt so enraged that none of the attempts to find a solution is working with Israel. You know, like, Oslo Accord happened in 1993. You know, now we have two states. Let's go ahead. Then Israel built more settlements and more settlements. The Israelis also assassinated Rabin, the— the— the Israeli prime minister, who wanted to have some sort of peace with the Palestinians. And that made Hamas come into power because— not necessarily because people were ideologically aligned with Hamas, because they wanted a way to— for liberation, and nothing was working.
But what Israel did at a time where the Palestinian authority was getting momentum on the international fora, like, Palestine was— was enrolled at the UN in 2011, then at the ICJ, the International Criminal Court— Court of Justice and the International Criminal Court. And Israel wanted to undermine that. And how would they undermine that is by playing on the rivalry between Hamas and Fatah.
Right.
So they allowed— they allowed Qatar to fund— to fund Hamas. Like, literally, Israel would get the money inside Gaza. You know, it's not like.
Yeah, I read about it.
Yeah, yeah. It's— it's— and it's— I mean, Netanyahu said that too. Like, he was— he was talking about that, how these— how— how these actions are actually helping in dividing the Palestinian community. Because to Israel, the main threat is to have a unified Palestinian society, a unified Palestinian political system. Because then, you know, we can go to the international community. We can actually, like, work toward liberating ourselves. But they wanted that divide to— to continue.
And at a time where, you know, Palestine was getting, like, really great momentum, like, across the world, they thought that, no, let's— you know, let's focus on— on strengthening Hamas. That way, they would never— you would never have a unified Palestinian state.
So let's fast forward. So you're protesting. And for me, when I saw all of this happening, I remember being shocked, not by the protesters, because college students protest war is a very American experience. It's— it's just— you grow up seeing imagery of it. Like, my dad fought in Vietnam, and— but I grew up, you know, seeing the imagery of all of the protests. Both Iraq wars, you know, were protested. This seems to be a very American thing, specifically on university campuses.
To me, it was like, of course they're protesting. That's like being surprised college students smoke marijuana. Like, no shit. Of course they do. So I was really shocked at the fact that people were shocked about it. That's what shocked me the most. I was like, God, they're really mad at them. Like, that seems ridiculous. Like, they get to protest that if they want to. This is America. Well, everybody just was demonizing these protests, which I found to be really un-American. The demonization of free speech and the demonization of protest is what struck me.
And I didn't really know much about the whole Israel-Palestine because I'm growing up in— living in Oklahoma, where we're dealing with Christian nationalists, you know, like abortion, just all the crazy shit that Christian nationalists want to do. That's what I was on the front lines trying to fight there. And so you are organizing these protests and you're involved in the protests, and you graduate from Columbia, and then Trump wins, unfortunately.
And take me to the day that you were kidnapped by the United States government.
I mean, just say, like, a little bit about the protests, about this demonization of the protests, because it was easier for the establishment, for the Zionist establishment in this country and the Zionist groups in this country to silence and demonize the— the protests than actually engage with them. Like, you know, like the— the pro-Palestine students, the pro-Israel students at Columbia, they failed to build a movement because who would support a genocide? Who would support the killing of people? So it was easier for them to come and harass, provoke students so they can get that five-second video and post it on social media, see like it is— it is violent at Columbia, while in reality it was overwhelmingly peaceful.
Like, students are just protesting on the lawns. Like, they're taking, you know, a space and just, like, leave them. And Columbia itself contributed to that. You know, like, I say that what led to my arrest, you know, Columbia— Columbia laid the groundwork for the Trump administration to target me. A day before my arrest, I emailed Columbia president and— and Columbia administrators, begging for help. Like, just, you know, because they can't see the vicious attacks against me online.
When you— when you— sorry to interrupt, but when you were protesting and helping to organize the protest, did you do anything egregious and say anything like, you know, death to America or America needs to die or.
No, absolutely not.
Anything fighting?
And, you know, like, our fight— our fight was to get Columbia to divest from companies complicit in human rights violations and to boycott its relations with academic— with Israeli academic institutions. And— and, you know, now 18 months after my arrest, the Trump administration has not— not only charged me with a crime, but also presented any evidence that I did anything outrageous or egregious, whether by my speech or not.
So just— just so we're clear, because I think this is really important. Has Columbia accused you of doing anything wrong or not on the up and up or criminal?
No, no, no. I mean, nothing— nothing criminal, absolutely. I mean, Columbia tried. You know, after the protests, Columbia started, like, a Gestapo-like office called the Office of Institutional Equity that was targeting anyone protesting for Palestine on campus.
And so let me just ask, why— why? Why are they upset about people protesting for Palestinians? Because to me, this is very American.
Yeah. No, I mean, let me tell you this. Like, the— the— the Palestine movement at Columbia did not only start after October 7th. You know, the first referendum asking Columbia to divest from Israel was passed in 2002 by Columbia's student body.
Okay.
Columbia did not— did not want to deal with that question. Even, you know, one of the Columbia presidents, Bollinger, he said that divestment from Israel is not a topic we would ever discuss at Columbia. So it was clear that Columbia had this pro-Israel stance. And the board of trustees, there are ideologues on the board of trustees whose protection of Israel for them is much more important than protecting freedom of speech, protecting student safety, and even academic freedom.
And that was what was shocking to me because at first I was like, maybe what the university want to see is, like, you know, popular support within— within campus, and that's it. But, like, to them, they wanted to contribute to that narrative that these students are violent. They want to contribute to the narrative that, you know, like, the— that there is antisemitism on campus, while in reality there was none of that. Like, none as in, like, you know, zero. There might be, like, you know, it's a big movement, but, like, there was nothing of that. But they wanted to— to do— to— to portray the movement as violent, so to— to silence it.
And that's, again, you know, when you have the board of trustees of these universities, they are part of the establishment. At Columbia, a lot of these people are part of— you know, are part of weapon manufacturers, are part of these big hedge funds.
What always, like, strikes me about Israel and— and as an American, in— I feel like I can be critical of Russia. No problem. Vladimir Putin sucks. Can't stand him. I can say whatever I want to. But when it comes to Israel, it's like you're— you have to tiptoe. It's like you're— you know, you're walking through it. And it requires the— the people who want you to support Israel demand that you suspend critical thinking.
And I'm— I'm not a religious person. I was raised in the Bible Belt, but I'm an atheist. And so it's very difficult for me to suspend critical thinking. And it's very difficult for me to engage in magical thinking. And so I understand historically that Jewish people have been persecuted. World War II is a horrific stain on humanity, and that will forever and always be. And I oppose all forms of bigotry, all of them, every single one of them.
Absolutely.
But I feel like when you stand up for Palestine or you're critical of Israel, like, it's just like they try to make you out to be an asshole. And I'm just like, what the— like, I'm not an asshole here. Like, this government and this country objectively is doing really bad shit. And we— we, lovers of democracy, should call that out. Whatever you have going on or your feelings get hurt for us calling that out, I think that's a them problem. You know, it's just— it's really a bizarre thing.
And I entered this late in life, but it's very bizarre to me how— how difficult it is because, like, right now, I want everybody criticizing my government. I want everybody talking about how bad the United States is right now because we are behaving like a very bad actor. We are violating human rights. We are suspending habeas corpus. We are killing citizens. We have a nut job president. And I think you should say it loud and say it proud.
But you wouldn't— you wouldn't get the same pushback, like, as you would criticize Israel. Like, in this country now, it's fine to criticize this country's government, but not Israel. And that's, to me, it's the Palestine exception in this country. The Palestine exception, the fact that the freedom of speech, rule of law, basic dignities are not extended to Palestine. You know, it's freedom of speech except for Palestine, rule of law except for Palestine. So everything is.
We have a history of this.
No, absolutely.
This doesn't do for the United States because we have treated the Black population like this for a very long time. And— and I think that that's a fundamental problem that allows this to incubate so much.
But that's when— when— when it is so difficult to, you know, because they can— they can never justify that. Like, how— how would you justify that? God promised me a land, like, 3,000, you know, like, how would you— how would you justify that?
I can't even— I can't even discuss that as a rational thought. That's.
So that's why it's easier for them to silence and to smear and to demonize than actually engage with— with whatever you have. That's now what we're seeing right now is the Israeli lobby in this country are trying to pass laws that would, you know, that would suppress freedom of speech, that it would, you know, and it's happening in some states that you cannot boycott Israel. You can boycott the United States in this country, but you cannot boycott.
It's not.
Israel.
See, that's what I'm saying.
So that's— that's— that's, I think, the essence of it.
That's crazy. Okay. So all right. So all of that aside, no matter what people think, we surely we can all agree on speech. And I think that it's very, very important in free speech. So you get up one day and— and walk my listener through what happens when you are arrested or detained or kidnapped, whatever phrase it is. I think it can be a combination of all the above.
So on March 8th, I was going back home with Noor, my wife, who was eight months pregnant at that— at that time.
Oh, my God.
And when we entered the lobby of our building, I see that there was someone following us. And he— he entered the building. And then he asked me, "Are you Mahmoud Khalil?" And in the back of my head, I knew because, you know, I— I saw all these attacks online. But I was so chill because I didn't do anything wrong. You know, like, even I was at that time during the day, I was discussing that with Noor, that maybe the FBI would come and question me, but that's about it. Like, I never did anything wrong. You know, I only protested, as you said— as you said, like, it's the very American thing to do in this country.
And I never had my— like, I never wore a mask to— to hide my identity. That's— that's, you know, a conscious decision I made because I had a belief that I wasn't doing anything wrong. Like, why would anyone target me? So the— the officers tell me, like, "Oh, your— your student visa has been revoked." And I was shocked. I was like, "I don't have a student visa. I'm a permanent resident, a lawful permanent resident." And— and he got confused. He called somebody, like, "Oh, he had, like, a green card."
Even they were incompetent.
Very incompetent. That's— I think that's the most dangerous thing about this administration.
The incompetence. But I think it might— the incompetence might save us, though.
I mean, I don't know. Like, when—
Okay. So go— go on. So he makes a call.
He makes a call. And whatever he tells the— that— that— that same officer, he tells the other officers, "Bring him anyway." So I ask, you know, the first thing I.
You have a green card.
I have a green card. And I ask for a warrant. They wouldn't show me any.
Your wife's American.
My wife is American, was expecting a baby. And, you know, the first thing in— in know your rights tells you when the police comes, don't talk to them and ask them for a warrant and to call a lawyer.
Yeah.
I asked them for the warrant. They said, "Oh, we will show you— we will show you the warrant later." I was like, "No, I need to see the warrant right now." And they tried to call my— my— my lawyer. You know, for a minute, I tried to call her, but then when she was insisting on seeing the warrant, they— they hung up on her. And then, you know, they— they— they— they took me. And, you know, like, provided that they wear plain clothes.
What agency is this? Is this ICE or FBI?
It's HC— HSI, Human Homeland Security Investigations.
Oh, so this is under Kristi Noem.
Exactly.
Oh, God.
So— and— and this— this task force was supposed, like, to deal with human trafficking in this country, with, like, you know, real threats in this country, not go after students for their speech.
A college protester.
So I was— I was— I was so chill because I knew that there's something, you know, something wrong. Like, it's an administrative error. Maybe they got it wrong. And, you know, because I expected these basic, just like the— really the basics when it comes to the rule of law, that, you know, a judge would look into my case or, you know, an officer would see that all these Twitter posts were wrong. You know, like, there was, like, a bunch of Columbia students and— and faculty pro-Israel attacking me and smearing me about, like, you know, being pro-Hamas and— and all of that.
And I thought, you know, like, you know, there's some.
But for the record, you're not even pro-Hamas.
No, no, I'm not. I'm not. Like, that's— that's the thing.
Right.
You know, like, and— and I mean, that's, you know, like, that's.
I just— I want— I want—
Even if I am— like, even if I am, it's freedom of speech. Like, that's the thing. But I'm not. Like, that's a big part of it. Like, I'm— I'm a Palestinian who believes in.
Who condemns the exploitation of other Palestinians.
Absolutely. And I say it, like, loud and clear in— in my book. And my family has been, like, you know, for, you know, since ever, opposed to Palestinian factions because of the fact— like, because they couldn't— they couldn't build a movement for all Palestinians. So that's why I'm— you know, I— I don't agree with, you know, political Islam. Like, that's not something I— I— I agree with. You know, I want a free Palestine where every person between the river and the sea, regardless of their faith, regardless of their background, live with dignity equality.
A one-state solution.
Yeah. I mean, to me, it's just like the most important thing is, like, no one should be discriminated— discriminated against because of who they are.
Okay. So they— they have you. And then where do they take you?
So they have— they take me to Federal Plaza here in New York to ICE. I didn't know anything that— I didn't know even they are ICE. Like, that's the thing. They only told me that we are HSI, but also they are in plain clothes. So I didn't know if they're legit or not.
Right.
Like, if I'm being kidnapped or any of that. And then while I was being booked, I hear someone asking an officer, the White House is— is asking for an update. And I was like, shit, like, something is, you know, like, is— is serious happening. If the White House is invested in— in me, like, that means I did something wrong. Like, at a time where I, you know, all the— like, everything I know tells me that I am innocent. I never committed anything wrong. But when I heard that thing, I was like, maybe I did something wrong.
Right.
And I didn't know about. And, like, did someone frame me? Did, like, someone say anything? And then they— they bring me.
Are you scared?
No, until now, I still had the belief that.
Justice.
That justice would prevail. You know, that they— you know, there's no— there's no way. You know, I'm— I'm good— I'm good in law. I'm good in bureaucracy. Like, I worked for the British Embassy for five years. I— I— like, I know my rights. I know, like.
And you're being reasonable.
I'm being all of that. And then they bring me the documents, this— the— the Foreign Secretary determination that says your presence in the United States poses, like, an adverse threat to the U.S. foreign policy or.
I want to play a clip about this. Here's Marco Rubio, Lil Marco is the president, calls him, talking about you. Play this clip, Kylie.
We don't want— we don't need these people in our country. We never should have allowed them in in the first place. If he had told us, "I'm going over there, and I'm going over there to become the spokesperson and one of the leaders of a movement that's going to turn one of your allegedly elite colleges upside down. People can't even go to school, library buildings being vandalized," we never would have let him in.
So that— that was their explanation that you turned Columbia upside down. Let me ask you this. Had you not been here, would Columbia still have had protests?
Absolutely. I mean, that's— that's the big thing. I mean.
It happened in other campuses too, right?
No, I mean, like, they give me so much credit for things I never done. Like, I mean, you know, like, I would be so flattered if they told me I— I led the movement at Columbia. I did not lead the movement at Columbia. The movement at Columbia was led by so many students who refused to stay silent at a time where they can see on their phones that Gaza is being obliterated, that people are being killed, and they're being gaslit by their own university that, you know, what you're doing is dangerous. So to me, like, to give me that credit, I mean, like, that's— that's a huge— but even though, like, in his determination, Rubio says in that determination that Khalil's actions, associations, and activities otherwise lawful are a threat to the U.S.
foreign policy and, you know, like, national security.
Well, I mean, he's an asshole, but.
So they say it's lawful. So, like, I mean, what do you expect me to— like, it's— you know, like, in Syria, I used to wear masks when I would protest against Assad's regime because I knew it's a brutal regime that if they knew I was protesting, they would come and kill me. They would come and disappear me. That's why, like, I always wore a mask. I would change my clothes when I go to protest because I knew that this is going to be the consequence of protesting in Syria. But here, I didn't feel the need.
It felt safe. So they— they have you. And then you spend, like, 104 days in an ICE detention center. Take us through that.
When I entered, to be honest, I was so relieved when I entered the detention center when I saw people around me because at that time, it was 1:00 a.m., about, like, 48 hours after my arrest. So I was, like, very, you know.
What were the other people in that detention center? Who were they? Immigrants?
So at night, I didn't know. Like, it was night. I just, like, you know, tried to sleep. I couldn't sleep. I wanted just, like, to call my wife. In the morning, it was clear. I could see ICE everywhere around me, like the— their logo and— and the posters of ICE around me. And then I was able to talk to people inside. So the vast majority of, you know, I was in— I entered a room of over 70 people, like, one room, all bunk beds. The light was still on.
It was, like, 2:00 a.m. in the morning at that time when I entered that— that room. Everyone is trying to sleep, but, like, you know, they gave me a thin— a thin blanket, like, no pillow. I couldn't sleep. But so the— the— you know, a day— a day in, I spoke with others around me, and I, you know, I discovered that this is an ICE detention center. This is where they bring immigrants to deport them or, like, to wait until their— their immigration process finishes.
But speaking to people around me, you know, like, when I entered that detention center, I— I— I felt, you know, very devastated that I had the most heartbreaking story ever. You know, like, I'm a legal permanent resident. I'm expecting a baby. I didn't do anything wrong. I did it the right way, you know, coming here on a visa and then on a green card. My wife is American. But it was immediately clear to me that, actually, no, I was lucky. Like, I'm— I'm— I'm someone who should be grateful that I have all these because the people around me, they did not even have a lawyer.
They did not even have a document saying why.
Were there kids?
They were— they were not kids, no. They were, like, 18, 19 years old. But I— I still remember, like, on my second day, I had someone coming to me. He spoke English, like, very fluently. And he told me that he's going to talk. Like, he doesn't know why he's— he's there. I think he's— he's a DACA recipient. I didn't know what DACA, like, actually, like, you know, but, like, he told me he's a DACA recipient. And he was taken— I think he was going to school, something like that. He was taken off the street.
But he felt, like, confident. He's like, "Yeah, I'm— I'm— I'm going to talk to my lawyer tomorrow, and we're going to sort it out." And then later in the night, ICE came, announced his name, and deported him immediately without getting the chance to— to see a lawyer. But over these 104 days, I met all sorts of people, mostly, you know, fathers and men who came to this country only looking for a better future for themselves and their families. Like, my bunkmate lived in the United States since 2002.
His two daughters are U.S. citizens. And one of them works for a federal law— law agency, like, law enforcement agency. And he was telling me, you know, all these as if— if these are, like, his— his credentials to be American or to get out of— of detention, telling me about, like, how much he pays in taxes, that he has, you know, three horses.
Because normally, in a Syrian government, those things matter.
Absolutely, because.
But in this government.
He would tell me, like, you know, my— my— my— my nephew is— is in the Air Force. And so he felt, like, he's— he's going to, you know, like, it's— it's a piece of cake. You know, he's going to be out. Something wrong is happening. Then two weeks in, his bond hearing comes, and it was denied. And he was devastated. And they denied his— they denied his bond because of lack of connections to the community. So someone with two U.S. dollar— U.S. two— two U.S. daughters.
His wife was— was a permanent resident. He's a foreman at his company. You know, he was telling me, like, you know, "I'm a supervisor of 30 employees." Like, he was so proud of, like, what he was able to achieve in— in this country. And then once he lost that bond, he was, like, you know, 180 different. It's just, like, he felt so betrayed. And he had to sign his deportation order because, you know, the conditions in these detention centers are so bad by design because they want people to give up fighting their case in the court because it might be cheaper to, you know, to— to have a warm temperature, to— to get, like, a better food because the food can get better.
They just, like, you know, it's designed to be bad, just, like, to get you out of detention, like, to get you to sign your deportation as soon as possible. But speaking of— of— of children, I still remember these two men. One of them was literally crying all the time, like, as in, like, day and night. He was picked up from his court hearing. He had an immigration court hearing. And he was snatched off that hearing and came. He's a father of four kids, all of them under 10.
And his wife was battling cancer. They are alone outside. So he would just, like, cry. He's saying, like, "Who— who's going to take care of the kids? Like, my wife has chemotherapy next week." Or— or I think it was, like, same day. I can't remember exactly. I remember, like, it was, like, very, you know, they— he had to be with his wife and the chemotherapy and to take care of the kids. And another person who came and asked me to write a letter to ICE to bring his son, an 11-year-old, into detention because he's a single father.
He doesn't have anyone outside. And I remember we spent, like, two days just trying to locate his— his— his son. His neighbor ended up taking him in, but he wanted his son to come into detention. So, like, just imagine having to ask ICE to detain your son just to take care of them. This is what this government is doing. You know, like, cruelty is the point of— of this government.
Yeah, yeah.
A lot of these practices were happening under Biden, by the way. Like, it's not just that Trump is— is doing this, but he's doing— he's doing it in a way that's so vicious, that's so horrendous to just to be cruel, you know? Like, that's the point. And, you know, it was so normal to see men cry in detention because they're being called criminals, rapists, all these smears online, while in reality, you know, like.
They just have paperwork issues.
Yeah, exactly.
I say it all the time on the podcast. These are not criminals. These people have immigration issues or paperwork issues. These are paperwork issues. They're not.
No, no, that's the thing. Like, why would someone be get in jail for a year or two for overstaying a visa?
Right.
Like, that's the thing.
That's insane.
Like, why?
We're about to run out of time, so I want to make sure we— we get to. So ultimately, you're released from ICE. And who fought for your release? And what was the order that— that got you released?
Yeah. So right after my detention, thankfully, a group of lawyers and legal institutions volunteered to represent me. So ACLU, CLEAR, CCR, and many others because they knew that, you know, to go after a green card holder for, you know, First Amendment is a big thing. It's going to have huge consequences to anyone in this country, whether they are citizens or not citizens. So it got, like, more than 20 lawyers to— to get me released.
So they appealed to— to a court in New York, then to a court in New Jersey because of these, like, few hours that I spent in New Jersey. And that judge, after a period of time, decided to release me and ordered that the Rubio determination is likely unconstitutional. So— so he— he ordered my— my release. I get released, but still, the government appealed that decision. It got turned in the Third Circuit because it's, like, Republican majority.
So it's becoming, like, very ideological case where courts are because now there are, like, several students like me who got arrested. And it was clear, like, you know, we— I was targeted because the Trump administration wanted to make an example out of me so others wouldn't speak out for Palestine. You know, like that because that's what they said. You know, like, the White House said my arrest is a blueprint for the administration to go after anyone who protests for Palestine.
So now we're still fighting. I mean, now we're going to the Supreme Court on a very technical question, which is whether the— whether the federal court can intervene in my case or not because the Trump administration is arguing that this is a purely immigration case and it belongs to the immigration system. Immigration system in this country is fully under the control of the Trump administration. Immigration judges are not real judges. You know, they're— they're literally fake judges appointed by the Attorney General and can be fired by— by— by them.
So— so this is where we are right now. And, you know, the question that we're presenting to the Supreme Court is, you know, whether the government can weaponize its immigration system to punish someone for their speech. And if so, does the federal court.
Here's my deal, Mahmoud. I mean, this Supreme Court is really fascist. I mean, it's just— it's really a horrible Supreme Court. A lot of these justices are comprised of minority rule. You know, George W. Bush appointed, I believe it was John Roberts. He didn't even win the popular vote. One of the times that he ran, Donald Trump the first year didn't win popular vote. So in this democracy, the shining democracy on the Hill, we have a lot of minority rule in this country.
And I'm terrified for you to go in front of these justices because I believe, in my opinion, they're all fascists, racists. I do. I just— are you terrified to go in front of the Supreme Court?
I'm— I'm not. I think, again, like, my— my fight is not only about whether I get to stay in this country. It's more about whether anyone in this country can speak out for Palestine and not— not being punished for it. And I seek justice not only from the courts. You know, I— I totally understand that the courts are a product of the political system in this country.
Yeah.
You know, which is presidents appoint them according to their beliefs and agenda. But to me, I get accountability through people actually now, you know, like, the public is— is more aware about what's happening in Palestine. People are voting in progressive candidates whether, you know, across the country now. They're voting out candidates who are, you know, with the Trump agenda.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, with the Israeli agenda. I— I also get accountability and I get justice, you know, by getting my word out, you know, because this is what exactly.
It's credible.
Because it's a long game. Like, I mean, I—
Totally.
I would be— I would be, you know, I would be lying if I tell you, like, I have full confidence in the Supreme Court. But I— I think because what we're asking them to do is just to reaffirm what other Supreme Courts in the past.
Yeah.
Have said that habeas corpus is afforded to non-citizens. It is a tool to challenge the legality of you and constitutionality of— of— of you— of— of— of a detention.
Is it surreal? Like, when you— I mean, you're in it. You're in it. You're in it. But do you ever, like, step back and think, "Me, this— this kid from a Syrian refugee camp and then from Lebanon, and I— my case is going to potentially be a historically—" is it surreal when you ever.
It is. No, I mean, all the time I— I try to— to— to grapple with that, with— with— with this question. Like, you know, is— is this real? Am I in a dream? You know, I— I laugh with my friends. I tell them, like, I'm— I'm in an action movie right now. You know, I'm— I'm in a thriller. Like, it is.
Yeah.
How— how— that's how I'm— I'm— I'm taking it because it is surreal, you know? Like, I only came to this— to this country believing, you know, in— in— in the principles of this country, you know, that this country champions liberty, justice, and— and freedom and rule of law, only to be surprised that it is the opposite when— when— when you are Palestinian. You know, I came here, you know, I— I was planning, like, a— you know, a— a very stable life. Like, the green card was the first permanent thing I ever had in my life, you know? And it was like, oh, finally, I have five years, you know, to chill.
I would get my American citizenship and then see, you know, what's— what's next. And but now here— here— here I am. But again, like, I— I did not choose this, you know, like ICE did. And at a time where they're trying to make an example out of me, I'm trying to do, you know, the opposite, which is to try to make an example out of them.
Okay. So final question. Your story, minus the 104 days in detention and Supreme Court pending Supreme Court case, is ubiquitous amongst Palestinians. So you can't go to Palestine and be safe, although you are Palestinian. And you can't go to Syria and be safe. And you can't go to Lebanon and be safe because Israel's now attacking Lebanon. And as a Palestinian, you came to America, and you weren't safe either.
Where can Palestinians go to be safe? And was that the impetus for the title of this book, "No Land to Stand On"? Because as I was talking to your assistant publisher, not publisher, maybe publicist, when I was talking to your publicist, I was just thinking, like, where— where are Palestinians supposed to go for just basic safety? And nobody really has an answer to that question, do we?
I don't— I don't think so. And, you know, Palestinians are fighting for their existence at this point, at a time where, you know, Israel is trying to erase their existence. You know, they say that there's 22 Arab countries. Why don't you go to these Arab countries? They're not my country, you know? Like, my country is Palestine. And, you know, my story is— is just another Palestinian story.
Exactly.
That proves that, you know, the violence and the brutality against Palestinians transcends borders. It's not only in Palestine that Palestinians are being killed and harassed. It's also outside of— outside of Palestine. And, you know, this is why we— we are trying to— to tell our stories, like, just to the people because we are all complicit. Like, every— you know, every American citizen is complicit in— in my misery and my people's misery by using our tax dollars to fund Israel, but also by using the U.S.
political power to shield Israel from real accountability. At the end of the day, you know, we're just, you know, just another people. We're looking for a better future for ourselves and— and our children. We want to build, you know, like, it's not, you know, we have to— to reckon with the fact or how we came here, like, that this country views a Palestinian as a terrorist or, you know, like, as at least, you know, a Palestinian is guilty until proven innocent, while it should be the opposite. So we're glad that this starts to change, that, you know, at the end of the day, you know, I'm a father, I'm a son, I'm a husband, you know, just like anyone else.
And you're just kind of a nerdy graduate student that likes to focus and wants to learn.
So.
And I mean that in the best way, as a compliment, because— because I think you just tapped into the propaganda that— that a lot of Americans think if they hear somebody's, you know, from an Arabic country or Palestinian, oh my God, they must— must be a terrorist. And I think a lot of that is completely changing. And it's just important for me and for my audience that we humanize and talk about the homelessness that so many Palestinians are experiencing now. And so I wish you the very best of luck.
Thank you.
With the Supreme Court. I mean, truly, I do. I will be watching that because I really do not trust them at all.
No, let me— let me tell you, like, one thing. Like, all the rights that we have right now did not come because the Supreme Court woke up in the morning and decided to do— to do the right thing.
Exactly.
Or the Congress woke up in the morning to do the right thing. It came as a result of people fighting for them, whether it is during the War of Independence, you know, the civil— the Civil War, the Reconstruction era, the Civil Rights Movement. And this is part of it.
Yeah.
We have to keep fighting for our rights.
I agree.
And I fear so many people are taking these rights for granted and thinking that, you know, we have these rights and we will— we will keep— we will keep them. But with those fascists in power, with those authoritarians in— in power who refuse to— to just, like, grapple with the idea that they are equal to other human beings, you know, they want to be superior. So we have to fight until we— we get all our rights. And— and this is just, like, part of that fight.
I just— I believe what I was told when I was little, that we are a nation of immigrants and we are a melting pot. And my vision of that extends to everybody, no matter your skin color, what your country is. And I just am so glad you're here.
Thank you.
And congratulations on your baby. And I'm sure she's big now. What, two now?
One and a half.
One and a half. And I can't thank you enough. Please go support Mahmoud and read his book, "Americans." We have a lot of catching up to do because we have been fed only one side to a story. And I just think it's super important that we— that we stand up for universal human rights.
Absolutely.
So thank you so much.
Thank you so much for having me.
ICE held him prisoner for exercising the first amendment.
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