Transcript of Timothy Olyphant

Wondry plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad free right now. Join Wondry plus in the Wondry app or on Apple Podcasts or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard and I'm joined by Monica Padman.

Hi.

We had a major babe on today, M.B. oh, major babe. Timothy Oliphant, Emmy nominated actor, Justified, Hitman, Santa Clarita, Diet, Deadwood and his new series out now on fx, Alien Earth, which of course is written by Noah.

Hawley, Friend of the Pod.

Friend of the Pod, about the best writer out there doing it. Yeah, I'm putting this in the Alexander Skarsgard bucket of dudes that just came in here were as playful as a goddamn kitten with a ball of yarn.

That's right.

Please enjoy.

Timothy Oliphant hello, I'm John Robbins, comedian and host of Wondery's how do youo Cope? Podcast. I'm also plot twist, an alcoholic. I've written a book, 12 Drinks that Changed my Life, published by Penguin. Thirst is a book about alcohol. Its mystery, its terror, its havoc, its strange meditations. But John, I hear you cry. Isn't that a rather odd book to write for a sober man who more than anything wants to stop thinking about alcohol? Well, yes, but I had to go back to find out why the one thing I know will kill me still calls out across the night. It's the story of what alcohol did for me and what alcohol did to me. If that's of interest to you or someone you know. Thirst 12 Drinks that Changed my Life is available to pre order now online and from all good bookshops. I'm John Robbins, and on my podcast I sit down with incredible people to ask the very simple question, how do you cope? From confronting grief and mental health struggles to finding strength in failure, every episode is a raw and honest exploration of what it means to be human. It's not always easy, but it's always real.

Whether you're looking for inspiration, comfort, or just a reminder that you're not alone in life's messier moments, join me on how do you cope? Follow now wherever you get your podcasts or listen to episodes early and ad free on Wondery. How do you Cope Is brought to you by Audible, who make it easy to embark on a wellness journey that fits your life with thousands of audiobooks, guided meditations and motivational series.

Oh, we have the hoster here.

How are you?

Let's do a little mint tea.

Nice.

What are you doing?

I'M gonna do a latte. Homemade.

Oh, wait, we're getting. I would like a cortado, please.

Nice. We knew mint tea wasn't right. We knew it in our hearts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Why did you request mint tea? Is that what you always drink? For me to switch from mint tea to horchata?

What did you say?

No cortado.

I'll tell you why. Because my thought process was simply, oh, it's going to come in a paper cup with a lid. And that's not going to be as nice a experience as in a mug with like honey and the whole thing. And so I immediately just switched like, oh, no, when in Rome. This is what you want to get from. I don't know where we're ordering from, but it feels like it's the kind of place.

Have you had their coffee yet?

So good, right? Imported from Italy.

The beef and cheddar.

So good.

Combo platter.

I'll be honest with you, it's less about the tea. I just love a prop.

Yeah, I do, too. Something in your hand.

Have you ever got to smoke in anything?

It's the best.

There's nothing better. There's no acting to be done.

If you can smoke or eat in.

Any, do you spit it out or do it?

Doesn't matter. It's the process. It's the chewing the smallest thing.

Okay.

And it just immediately makes you a better actor.

I got to smoking. Let's go to prison. And it was a run and gun production, Right. So we're shooting several pages a day. And it does turn pretty quickly from like, I was a pack and a half a day smoker at the time. And I'm up to like a three and a half pack just because of the scenes and retake and relight. And by the end of it, I was like, I quit. I quit smoking at the end of that movie.

There you go. There's a win.

Do you do the herbal ones or you go real?

I haven't done a real cigarette in a production in a long time. I did a play years ago. Oh, my gosh. Davis Sedaris. I did a Sedaris thing and I smoked a land every night, as I recall. I think there was a cigarette involved in that. I used to go out and smoke a cigarette every night. I was going to look forward to it.

Yeah. Of course, you would have never been an actual smoker because your life was committed to athletics.

I was committed. Yeah.

I mean, truly, you couldn't have been a smoker and a national swim champ.

Whoa. That's Cool.

I'll take you there. I'll take you there.

Take me.

I think a champ is a little.

I want to say you were a runner up in the 86 Nationals. That's the actual year.

That can't be true.

Yeah, okay.

That's a big deal.

I'm not saying it's not.

Nothing. I. Finals of anything.

Okay. There you go.

Yeah. She's a state champ, right?

I am two time.

What's more for you.

Competitive cheerleading.

Competitive cheerleading.

High flyer.

Yeah. I was flying. Tumbling.

Dangerous.

Very dangerous.

When did you start?

That started in 8th GR. And then I was on the squad my junior and senior year. And we won both years.

How about that? Where from?

Georgia.

Oh. It's a big deal. There's a huge deal. It's like the whole thing.

Yeah. That's why it felt really good.

It's the equivalent of polo in Nantucket.

It was a blessing because the state's SAT scores were on average, too low. So we weren't allowed to go to nationals.

Wait, they were penalizing you personally for the state average?

Yeah. Like no one in the state of Georgia could go to nationals because the state average SAT scores. But it was a blessing because then it was just like we were the best. We couldn't then go to the next stage and lose. That was the best we could do. And we did it.

Oh, this is a detail of the story. I've never. I've heard this story 150 times, Timothy. And you just brought out a weird layer of honesty. Which is you just told me you were champs two years in a row.

You didn't say you were champs.

Okay.

Didn't say idiots.

Of the idiots.

You did not say of the.

Well, sure. You guys won it. You weren't going to class.

Yeah.

Else was going to class. They were handicapped by actually doing their studies.

Correct.

You ladies were phoning it in. Guys and girls. Coed.

Yeah. Co ed. It's not like the SAT scores of the cheerleaders. I know every single person in the state. The average was too low to take gpa.

Not the sat.

Sat.

Your SAT scores.

Now I'm worried.

I think you're right. They wouldn't do a state. But let me say this.

Maybe you're right.

There's almost never an occasion to say, well, once again, the few have bore the burden of the many.

Okay, okay.

The same is. Once again, the many have bore the burden of the few.

Well, I think that's.

This is the opposite because, like, the state fucked you guys up.

But again. But I choose to look at it as a positive because we did the best we could possibly do. We won state. We couldn't do anything more than that.

Well, the rest of those idiots up to these days, I don't know.

I've really separated myself from.

Really.

No.

Are you in touch with any of the squad? We're going to call him a squad.

Call him a squad.

Are you in touch with any of the squad?

I just want to flag something. I want you to be careful because he's doing what he does. Happening. It's happening full throttle, right out of the game. I want to see what shape it would take. Wow.

This is.

This.

Listen, I'm just.

He does everything he can to never talk about himself. I watch a thousand interviews with you and I know it's happening.

This is interesting.

Three people talking. Rob, we're going to include you. There's four of us. We're in here, we're chatting, and we're just being humans.

And it'd be your preference that we just kept it alone. Light chat and we don't find out anything about old to listen.

This is your show. Okay? Now put aside the fact that the guest was here first.

Yeah.

Still.

That's part of it. I want you to get comfortable before you're intimidated by my biceps. I want you to be able to sit down and relax and not feel threatened.

Now, I can't take my eyes off. Now look at that. I can't take my eyes off him. All right, we're letting it go. We're going to not. Let's not talk about the squad. We're not going to give us one squad member. Just. What's one squad member?

Who's the guy? I'll let you in on something that's really fascinating. And I said to her early on as we were chatting about this history, you know, you're up in the air like that and the people are catching you, and sometimes it's willy nilly. Did they ever catch you by the pussy? And Monica said, yeah, it happens all the time. And we have people write in, like any high flyer, they're going to have to get caught by the. Occasionally on accident. So that's the member of the squad I think we should honor if we're going to honor someone.

I think that's a great idea. And we should put this on your Wikipedia page. Champion cheerleader, occasionally caught by the pussy.

That's right.

But Kevin moving and won two titles. So who caught you?

Most of them are women. Oh, now we're really off the rails. But yeah. Let's shout out one person. Let's hear Kendall Morgan.

What an athlete.

Incredible athlete.

Dumbest girl on this.

You know what?

She the one that hurt.

He's a very smart male.

He.

Sorry, I went the same place you did.

I understand.

She just said women caught her and then she said, kendall.

My bad.

I feel like she wasn't listening to the slaughter on that one.

I don't listen. This is what my wife tells me. You need to listen. Okay. What's Kendall up to?

Kendall is running another cheerleading gym. Has an all star gym. Doing fantastic.

She stayed in it.

He stayed in it. He's with us.

Yeah. I'm kind of with your wife now.

God damn it.

Okay, I'll give you one other out. Before we get into your childhood, I really, truly would not expect you to remember this. Because as I did the math today, I think this is about six, 17 years ago. Do you remember having dinner with me? Yeah, that's fine.

Who's at the table?

It was before the Soho House had opened officially. And I think you and Kristen had the same agent at that time, Tracy.

Okay.

And I think Tracy invited you and her to the Soho House before it.

Opened here in la.

Yeah, they were doing, like, soft opening.

They had really cool furniture.

Yes, it was gorgeous.

It was what I remember about that.

So we went and it was Kristen and I, and it was you and your wife. And then it was the agent.

Wait, it's the five of us.

That's pretty interesting.

Jesus.

Listen, there's a big reason why I would remember it more than you. And I was hoping maybe you would remember this aspect. Kristen got up early on in the meal and disappeared for about five to 10 minutes. And then she returned with an enormous bag of ice and then subtly passed it to me under the table. Do you remember that?

No.

Because at that point it came out. That's the fucking date we were on our way to.

Oh, it's a bad batch.

On our way there, a guy crossing the street in front of the Chateau chucked a drink like, this big at the windshield of my car. And I pulled the E brake as it was shattering, got out of the car and fought a dude in front of that newsstand on Sunset. And I had kicked him in the head. And I really hurt my leg bad. And Kristen was very disappointed and mad at me because I was in a fight, in a suit on the way to this nice dinner with her agent and a very esteemed actor. And so when we got there, we were dealing with the fact that I had just Beat a guy up on the sidewalk. She's very disappointed. She's questioning, who have I just become partnered up with.

This the beginning of your relationship?

Yeah, we're like probably a year in. And then she, to her credit, despite all that, was like, he's hurt. I'm gonna handle this. And went and got this bag of ice and handed it to me, even though I know she was so mad at me. So it was quite a night for us. Wow.

That's quite a moment. I'm very disappointed in myself.

Well, I would love it if you did have some memory of, like, what was the funny business happening with the. Under the table?

God, how crazy is that?

Yeah, that was a very memorable.

That's the beginning of your guys relationship.

It was probably like a year in. I've changed though. T bed on the right.

This is workable.

I came in with a pretty visible limp.

Okay. Wow.

Yeah.

You probably thought she had some stomach issues because that's what you would normally think if someone leaves a dinner table for five to 10 minutes, comes back with ice because maybe she's sweating from.

The situation or covering from the fact that she had haunted.

Yeah. And so you were just being nice by being like, I'm not gonna pay attention to this.

That's all a blur.

Do you prefer Tim or Tim?

Tim's fine.

Tim's nice. Yeah. Yeah.

Is it fine or is it preferred?

No, I don't care. I like both.

So, Tim, why were mom and dad in Honolulu? That's my first curiosity.

Wow, look at that.

He's going to ask about cheerleading.

Pass.

Okay.

My dad was working for Del Monte.

And they were making the bananas down there or something.

He was working for Del Monte. That's, I believe, what took us to Hawaii.

You were two when you guys went to Modesto.

We went to the Philippines after that. And then I think also Damante and then Modesto. Natural progression.

Modesto by way of Manila. That could be a good memoir. That's still by way of Manila.

It's not as good as occasionally grabbed by the pussy.

No, hers is going to top usa.

Yeah.

Occasionally grabbed my. I want to see that on bumper stickers all across the state of Georgia.

Copyright on that or something. Someone's going to want to steal that.

Trump already has it, unfortunately, but, you know. So did dad go to take this job at Gallo? Is that why you guys move there? Or did they have any kind of roots there?

No roots. Although my mom's family was in the Bay area, up in Oakland area, so not far from home. Where she grew up.

And what's the vibe in Modesto?

See American Graffiti?

Yeah. Yeah. Is that where it was shot?

George grew up in Modesto. Lucas. So it was about Modesto. It was about his childhood. And I always felt like that was pretty much our childhood, just uglier cars.

So for people who have not seen.

It, like me cruising orchards, much more sprawl now. When I was there, it was quite a quaint. You hear about the declining middle class a lot of times in certain bubbles, you're like, oh, I understand it. In theory. If you go to Modesto, you feel it. Because those little neighborhoods that we all grew up in were so idyllic at the time, surrounded by orchards and canals. Now they're less idyllic. In the 70s, it was less than 100,000 people.

And it's a company time. Most of the people there work for Gallo, the wine.

Gallo. I think Safeway was there. Agriculture.

Yeah. They did $3.1 billion in agriculture sales last year. Modesto. But I got bad news for you. They were the number one most per capita car thefts in 2012.

Modesto.

Yes. I'm reading all this. I'm like, what is this place? Tim's got to tell me.

What is the. I have a very fond memories of growing up there, and I still have buddies there. My mom's still there. I do go back much less than I have, but I still enjoy going back home.

Yeah. What's the age gap between you and your brothers?

Older brothers a little over two years. Younger brother a little over three years.

Does the middle child kind of archetype. Do you feel like you identify with it?

I'm like, the well balanced one.

You're the well balanced one.

I'm getting middle child vibes. Yeah.

I'm a middle child as well.

All right.

And I've been ruminating on it a lot just recently because. Because I realized that when I was a kid, there was a lot of chaos on either end of the age spectrum. There was a baby and a teenager. They were both nuts. I hid a lot. I was pretty solitary. I just would get out of the chaos. I'm now realizing that I live with three women, and two of them are starting to have a lot of hormones. I couldn't place it, but I'm like, oh, I know this feeling. This is like, I wanna go hide sometimes.

Oh.

And then I was wondering if you related to any of those middle child things.

I do think there was a upside of your older brother and his friends can pick on you, but you can Pick on your younger brother's friends, and then you can bully him. You do get to play a lot of the roles, and you also can easily bounce back and forth in terms of you can age up or age down, and you can kind of. So I felt like, in some degree, it was a nice little spot to be in. I read this fascinating years ago about how siblings can be so vastly different. And, oh, I don't understand this. We grew up in the same house, but. But of course, you really didn't grow up in the same house. Like, you realize if my older brother describes these sort of significant chapters in his life, they're vastly different than mine and very vastly different than my younger brother's. Yeah, they really grew up in completely.

Different worlds because of the socioeconomic changes or the way they parented.

You could just say my older brother, he had two younger siblings. His parents divorced at 15, 16 years old. He went off to college. My younger brother can say he had two older brothers. His parents divorced when he was like, 12 or 11, and we both took off, and he was there, high school, living with my mom on his own. I never had that experience.

Right, right, right.

A divorce at 12 versus 15, 16. They mean vastly different things.

Yeah. Which do you think is worse? Do you think one is worse? I don't know.

That all sucks. I haven't seen the divorce where you're like, that's where you want to hit it.

I would argue mine. I was three, so I don't have any memory. Nothing was missing because I didn't remember them being.

Don't they all, in some degree, scar you in some significant way?

Well, the stepdads that arrive do.

Yeah, sure, this may mean pop psychologists, but there must be a thing like, well, if your parents divorce when you're that young, that you feel somehow. Well, I guess all kids response.

Yeah.

You feel like, oh, I showed up and I broke up their marriage.

I think if you were older and you could understand, which in this case, probably true, Might have been true. I was colicky. My father and I clashed from the second I arrived. It's quite likely.

I do think with middle children, you guys aren't handed an identity. The older sibling is handed an identity. They have to be in charge. The parents are afraid for their first kid. Right. They don't know what they're doing. There's way too much attention on them.

And now, having had three kids, you see how much the first child, you're like, what is she doing now? What's going on now?

Exactly.

Look at this. Oh, she's never done that before.

Yes.

The third one, you're like, did we leave the third one? Do we have to go back to that cocktail party? Because where's the third one?

Yeah, very hard.

100Th amount of pictures taken of the third one. That there was the first one.

And they're just always in pictures with other people. At least they're immediately connected.

They never get their time.

But a middle child kind of has to make their own identity.

Even now as adults, when you get caught, you tell the oldest. I remember we used to take you to the park, and the first time you made it across. And then the youngest one is like, when did I first go across? And you're like, did you go across?

I'm so sorry. I'm Tim, honey, come on. I don't remember.

Dax, how can I remember your childhood? Fucking terrible.

But even that is an identity. Being little with the middle kid, I think is a little bit lost until they decide, this is me.

Yeah, but one part that you just made me think might have been really fun with your dynamic. Them being spaced like that two years is, I think, a lot of times, or at least I felt this way. When you get around 11 or 12, you're starting to do big kid stu stuff, and you want to be older and you want to be autonomous and show you're starting to become a man. And then you still pine for, like, playing with Hot Wheels, but you feel like a wimp if you do. But if you have a little brother, you can, like, bounce back and forth.

Yeah, we had a ball and were.

The Ola Fanta formidable group of boys in junior high and high school. Do people know better than to mess with one of them?

Oh, I don't know about that. But both of them were cool. We weren't on the football and baseball, you know, we weren't those guys either. My older brother played tennis and. And I swam, and Matt played water polo. We grew up next to a Modesto swim and racket club literally next door. So we basically were raised by lifeguards. We were there all day long.

What kind of niche were you in in high school? I mean. You were a swimmer. That's interesting. In itself. We're similar age. So you had the nerds, burnouts, jocks.

Fred C. Beyer High school in the 80s. A smoking section was right out front.

Nice.

At the flagpole. Right there at Dropbot, like where parents are dropping off their freshme. Were all these kids in leather jackets smoking? That was the entrance to the school. Isn't that great? Yeah, I was lucky. I was a bit of an artsy, fartsy guy, so I had a little bit of a connection with that kind of group. But then I was an athlete and all my buddies were a lot of athletes.

You were funny already.

Yeah, I guess so. I don't think I won any of those things, but I feel like I was runner up in like three or four.

Yeah, like the 86 Nationals. The theme of your life. You were in the finals?

Yeah. This short course final, it's not that big a deal. It's not the same as the summer.

Okay. And now I don't know anything about swimming, but the 200 meter medley.

I appreciate the prep, by the way.

Okay, thank you.

No, no, thank you.

It's my honor and my pleasure. You do four different kinds of swims in that.

The 200 individual medley. So you're swimming four strokes, fly back, rest free. And if it's meters, it's a single length. For the Olympics, 200 is a lap of fly back, breast free. 400 up and back, 400. By met many people's standards, the most difficult event.

You're doing all the things and it's pretty long.

Yeah. Quarter mile or something.

Is that what it is?

15Ft, 13, 20 is okay. Anyways, listen, I'm not trying to show off. What I'm trying to get to is middle clue there.

What's the clue?

I was, you know what, what are we getting at? I got defensive. I got a quarter mile and you're like, is it a quarter mile? And then now I gotta come over the top. No, you're right, and I apologize. And that was a bad side of my personality.

You're doing great. I am not talking to the gu who got out of the car. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I am not talking. I feel safe.

I'm going to attempt to make a thematic judgment of your life based on that one event. Oh, you want to hear it?

Can you imagine? No.

I do.

I want to hear it.

I'm going to pretend to be interested. No, I would argue.

And by the way, there's a fisherman seeing another fisherman at sea. That sounds like a great event if you don't actually want to be a specialist in any one thing. And I think that's been my approach to life a little bit. It's like, I'm pretty good at some things and if I put together the right combination of things now we've gotten ourselves into a winning position.

You're saying. Perhaps it's a metaphor. I'M not gonna take offense here. What I think is he saying, that's what you are as an adult as well. You're not really a specialist.

You're not specialized, you're not a generalist. But what this is not. This is why.

This is a big compliment.

Yeah. The best of us are generalists.

Yes.

Yes. Oh, really?

Yes, yes. People idealize and jerk off to specialists, but in fact, if you look at who has changed the world, it's generalists.

I like that you're thinking, let me.

Give you my example. I won every year. This is so stupid and embarrassing. The only thing I ever won growing up was the obstacle course. Because you had to be pretty good at all the little things, but not spectacular. Any one of them. I got to run pretty fast, but I wasn't going to win a sprint. And you had to jump pretty high.

What years are we talking about?

Elementary school.

When you say you won every year.

Every year in elementary school, we had metric day first through sixth grade.

That was your thing every year.

Oh, I won it every year. It's the only thing I ever won. And then, lo and behold, my kid won an obstacle course, and I'm like, it's in our genes. Really?

Yes. Nice.

I was thinking this too, before you said it, when you were talking about you're in the top of things, but you didn't win Nationals. I'm sorry to remind you, but you didn't.

I don't want to intimidate you, but you are looking at the former sandwiching section record holder.

I am intimidated.

I don't doubt that for one second.

So that's a win.

That's a win.

Oh, but you know What? In the 200, I am okay.

But that's still fine.

You know what's sad? Let me just give you a little insight.

Let's hear something sad.

Throw this on the Wikipedia page. Rob, can you get on that?

Yeah, yeah. Open it up, Rob.

I won San Joaquin section, which is like Modesto, Sacramento, the whole San Joaquin Valley area. And my senior year of high school, I beat what was a guy named Jeff Float's record. And Jeff Float was the flag bearer at the 84 Olympic Games.

Wow.

So it shows you what a disappointment Disappointment I was after that day.

Because you haven't bore the flag.

The guy whose record I beat went on to become amazing Olympic swimmer. And you beat him in high school still. I know, but you see what he did at the next couple years. We don't talk about what he did after that.

Serious effort.

See what finalist at Nationals, Olympic team.

You might be the reason though.

Makes me a bit of an underachiever.

No, but I was going to say, I think that if I were you, I might be looking at my life because you're an insanely good actor.

I appreciate that.

And I might be like, why am I not winning everything? I should be winning everything based on my talents. And then I would look back at my life and be like, I'm not winning enough. I'm really good at a lot of things and I'm not getting the full recognition.

That's what you think.

If I were you, I would think that.

But she's also a winner. That's real. That's real.

I am.

That wouldn't cross my mind, but that would cross her mind.

I can only tell you that I wake up every morning thinking, oh, look who the big winner is. I feel pretty good.

I love that.

I got a pretty good deal.

You do?

Oh my God.

It's good that you're not focused like I would be about what else do I want? You should win an Oscar. That's why I imagine you won a.

Bazillion 200 meter medley before you got to nationals is my guess.

Are you competitive?

Yeah.

You couldn't have gotten a scholarship to USC without being competitive.

I didn't get a scholarship to usc.

You got recruited.

I was recruited. They didn't offer me money and I turned down other once because I just really wanted to come to la.

When you got there, you were hoping to maybe do architecture or something.

I walked into the architecture school on my recruit trip. I had this instilled early on. My grandfather on my mother's side was very much like, there's only four or five professions. It was like architect, lawyer, government, or doctor. And everyone else is just hanging on. I drew a lot as a kid and I loved to do creative stuff. So I was like, I guess I'll be an architect, because that's the only one on the list that seems to be connected. So I went to the architecture school. They just right off the bat, the dean told me I couldn't be on the swim team and still be in the architecture school. The commitment's too big and long. Architecture classes are five hours long and they're in the middle of the day. It's when you're training. They can't work around it.

Everyone's reading the Fountainhead all day.

They're reading the Fountainhead. Read that in college.

How could you not? It's so appealing. When you're a young man. You think Your whole life story will be. And eventually they all learned you were exactly. That's your arc.

And you just drive around looking at all those. Remember? Because the church he built was down close to the ground, and everyone was very upset about it. And I just remember driving around going, yeah, look at all these churches. This is not the way Howard would have done it.

He was right. He was right.

The architecture school was upstairs, and I asked the guy, I said, on the way in, I noticed downstairs there was what looked like a gallery, and then there was, like, a ceramic studio. And he's like, yeah, that's the fine art department. And I was like, you can get a degree in that. Anyway, so he said, yeah, let me introduce you to this. So I went downstairs and sat down with the dean of the art school and asked him if I could. Here's my swim schedule. And they said, we can work it out.

That exercise is among the most calorically burning you can endeavor. Right. Swimming. I just remember the Michael Phelps, like, diet.

Let's just go with, yes, I know.

You burn a ton. Were you eating like a monster during that?

Ridiculous. Were you such, like, fond memories of everything? I.

Because you had a card, right?

You could go to the cafeteria. We just go. And we'd get a tray, and it would be a plate of pancakes, a plate of eggs and bacon and potatoes. It was so absurd.

Yeah, but you had to.

I bet if you were walking through the cafeteria, you would easily be able to go like, oh, yeah, that's the swimmers. They're all eating 13,000 calories this morning.

Come in with these trays and trays of so much food on that plate.

Was that ever a hard routine to break?

I remember once before practice, and I could do the math. I might have been junior year, but I remember about to jump in and assistant coach, shout out to Darrell.

Shout out.

That was a risky thing you just did. I've watched you now in a lot of interviews, and anytime you try to remember someone's name, it's high risk. So just congrats that you landed.

I was a right.

No, there's about a 60% chance that's not the right.

I can name all the coaches. We say hi to all the swim coaches. Dave, Salo and Darrel. Something about me having a belly, like. He's like, oh, got to watch. Whatever. And I was like, what are you talking about? And I was still young, but I do remember, like, oh, I can't just eat as much as I'm eating. You have to be a little bit thoughtful.

Yes.

Which is Nothing compared to 20 years later when you really have to be like, yes. Jesus.

It's so annoying.

We would go to Baskin Robbins and order pints. Each one of us stand in line with everyone getting their cone, single or double. And we'd be like, get a pint of half peanut butter chocolate, half praline cream pint, please, and a spoon. And we would all just eat a pint. Did you play sports growing up?

I skateboarded and snowboarded. I did all like the alternative. These are Olympic sports. They became those they weren't then. But not about me.

You didn't have what I do.

You did it again.

I'm not doing anything. This is pretty good, by the way.

It is.

Let's give.

From what I've seen, this is maybe the best you've ever done.

You came in with, like, a plan. I came in with no plan. I just wanted you to do it.

You're not supposed to, usually.

I like a plan. You do a little bit of a plan.

I know you like control.

I think there's a control issue.

I detected a few things. All of it, by the way, really lovely. It makes for fun doing the press. Yeah. I was observing a lot of things. A. You're just really funny every time you show up somewhere.

Thank you.

And you're likable and you're charismatic. And the smile, I'm sure, got you out of so much trouble. Which is unfair to the rest of us without that dumb smile.

At parties, they were like, cops are here. All of them. Elephant.

Yeah.

I have to go talk to the cops.

The pants up.

Yeah. I don't know what that was, but I was the designated talk to the cops guy.

Yeah, that's very easy to talk to.

Yeah.

That disarming smile. It's like, am I in trouble? I bet I am in trouble. Like, you're just finding out you're in trouble.

You watch the things and you've got.

Yeah.

You've got some thoughts.

I got thoughts.

I had an interesting thought coming in. Literally right before we start. Let's hear yours first.

Okay.

Okay.

Should we decide?

Monica? Yeah.

I thought. Yeah, he's very comfortable. You're in control.

I realized that if you could just. I shouldn't say this stuff out loud.

Yeah, you should.

It's too late. If you could just knock an interviewer off balance a little bit at hello. It just made the interview a little bit easier from that moment forward.

Absolutely.

Because you don't want to disrespect those things. But somewhere along the line, I discovered that if I could just knock each one a little off balance, it might turn into a lovely, spontaneous moment or two. And so somewhere along the line that occurred to me. When they sit down, they say, tell me about your character. I say, no, you tell me about it. And then somehow what might come of that more often than not is actually kind of like, oh, that was fun. Five minutes.

An honest moment.

Yeah. Where if I just go into the thing, it's no fun for anybody. So when I go on talk shows or things like that, I find same thing. If I can throw something out there, they have more fun, I have more fun. I just grew up loving talk shows and I love a great talk show guest. For a while, I really just wanted to be a talk show host. In college, I sent a video in with my roommate to audition for some talk show. I can't believe we actually did it. One of the two networks or Fox, they were getting into late night and I remember like, I want this gig.

You auditioned to host.

We sent in a video, like 3 Reasons why I'm the guy so cute. I was like, first of all, 100 bucks. I was like, even I mean it fails.

They would have put a 21 year old swimmer from us.

We really filmed it on vhs, sent it in. Like this is going to be our thing. So that was the idea. Yeah.

You've always loved it and you want to make sure you do good at it.

Yeah.

You're saying.

And my first major talk show appearance, I was on Conan's show in New York late 90s. And I was so nervous that I remember his lips moving and I don't know what he was saying exactly, but when they stopped, I was like, okay, now's when I tell the story. Story I'm supposed to tell.

Yeah.

And I didn't do them again for years. And then now I think, if anything, I try to anticipate the host's sense of humor. Like, oh, he is gonna love this.

He or she, you know, he Talk show late night. But we want it. We want there to be. Yeah. Wait, when you're on Joan Rivers show, is that what you're talking about? I didn't realize you had done her show Ellen.

Sometimes the daytime ones, different fun.

The audience is the best you'll ever be in front of. On Ellen.

They always want to talk about your kids and your.

Because that's who's watching.

People who have daytime kids, pets.

Yep. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare.

The town of AGDA in France is Famous for sun, sand, sea and sex. But lately, life on the coast has taken a strange turn. The town's mayor, a response. Respected pillar of the community, has been arrested for corruption. His wife claims he's been bewitched by a beautiful clairvoyant. Then there's the mysterious phone calls that.

Local people have been getting. I am the Archangel Michael.

The whole town has been thrown into.

Chaos as the mayor is unable to carry out his duties. I would like to address you all. Legal proceedings have been initiated.

Join me, Anna Richardson and journalist Leo Chic for the mystic and the Mayor as we investigate a story of power, corruption and magic. Binge all episodes of the mystic and the Mayor, exclusively and ad free right now on Wondery Plus. Start your free trial in Apple podcasts, Spotify or the Wondery app.

I had a story about my daughter and her guinea pig.

Perfect.

And it was this whole story, two for one. I remember saying I had this whole thing about the guinea pig and how desperately she wanted the guinea pig. And then a week later, she just can't remember why she wanted the guinea pig. And I just look at the guinea pig and it's looking at me, and we're both thinking, yeah, I don't know why. I don't know why you're here, but this is your life for the foreseeable.

Future, 18 months or however you want.

And then I said, hey, you know, there's a lot of countries where you can go into a restaurant and say, how's the guinea pig?

Oh, yep.

Oh, she can't stand that.

And years later, that guinea pig had a tumor on the side of him. It was like he was walking around with, like, a second guinea pig.

Oh, boy.

And this is what happens, you know, that's why we study the rats and the rodents, because their life cycle is very fast.

That's right.

So fuck. What's his name? We can give him a name for the story, but all I know is that little guy's got a tumor the size of another guinea pig. And we feel like it's maybe time. So our daughter, our youngest, she's getting ready to go to school, and we want to let her know that mom and I are going to probably take the little guy to the vet just to see how the little guy.

We're going to take him to an oncologist.

We need to find out if he's in pain and just where he is. She immediately started crying and asked, is he going to kill it? And I said, we don't know. She's like, he's going to kill him. And she starts bawling. I said, I'm so sorry. She goes, no, I'm really upset because, you know, I never really loved him.

She was having guilt. He had a loveless life. And get ready.

So great.

And I still don't.

Oh, my God.

And then she says, can you take the fish, too? The fish isn't dying. I just. Just take it. I can't get every.

You know what? Get everyone but my brothers out of here.

My wife and I drove to the vet that morning after we dropped her off from school. We each knew we're. Honey, if one of us gets sick, Keep your eye on that one. She's gonna be ruthless. Just take dad, too.

I've never even loved him anyway.

Pull the plug.

I can't deal with both of them. Just get it over with that.

Anyway, so pull the band aid. Yeah. How old was she when that happened?

She's a kid. I don't know. She's little. Let's go with 12. I can't remember. She's the youngest. We're talking about the oldest. I can hit dates.

Yeah.

I can hit whatever you want.

Told me that on October 7, they took care of.

Of it at the vet.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. But guess what they did when you left. They shipped him to one of those restaurants.

Medium rare, please.

On the first flight.

Just like. Just like chicken. Come on.

You did a really big favor because my brother's fish had a tumor and it exploded. Oh, good on you.

Exploding fish.

And it didn't make it, obviously.

No, no.

Okay.

But we survived the explosion.

Yeah. Yeah. You never know. It could have been an aqua meal.

Just got it right off.

That's fine.

And then was like.

Oh, yeah.

Felt so much better. Exactly. Like a pimple or a boil. Now, last thing about the swimming.

Keeping it on track. Good for you. We didn't go as deep as I thought we were going to go on your talk show. I thought you were going to say, this is why you do this. This is your issue. Well, I just. A little bit.

We did control. And then also you told me more than you realized by first appearance on Conan. You were a little deer in the headlights. Yeah. And it sounds like after the fact, you're like, I need a better game plan.

I was thinking of this before I got here. Here's some free. I'll open a can of worms. I'll tell you two things that occurred to me literally right before we were going on. A couple of famous people will pop in my head oftentimes Before I do interviews, like a Lou Reed or a Bob Dylan, there are men and women of that era in music, but in all forms, where they were just like, fuck you to anyone who was talking to them. And that famous Bob Dylan, Time magazine, where he's like, I don't read Time magazine. I was like, I love that you're saying that to Time magazine.

Exactly. Yeah, right.

He's saying to him, if you come to the show and he goes, well, you gotta pay attention, because it's gonna move pretty quick. You might not get it. All right. Like, he just immediately putting them down. And then there's the Lou Reed. Those press interviews where they're such assholes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Stones were kind of pricks, too, when they came to the U.S. i'm guilty, perhaps, of.

I admired those guys so much growing up. And I also, over the years, have collected moments of actors telling people to go fuck themselves and being like, oh.

Wow, that looks fun.

I remember being at a premiere, like, 99. I was at a party, and Robert Duvall had agreed to take a picture with me. And I walked over and said hello to him, and he's like, how you doing? Are they treating you well? Everything good? And I was like, yeah, I appreciate you doing this. We turned to the photographer, and she started taking pictures. And then she put down the camera for a second and said, you're at a party. And he stopped, said, don't do that. Don't direct. Just take the goddamn fucking picture. Snap, snap. And then right back to being charming and couldn't have been nicer. And I was like, wow. And I have a bunch of those.

Even Marc Maron, you saw him get introduced to the director on stick, shook.

His hand, kept walking.

Yeah. You were like, hey, I love your stuff, sort of thing. So what you and I both have is we both really want to be liked. And when you see someone that has zero people, this is what occurs to me. It seems like superpower.

I realized that just recently, I was told on good authority, he's like, why? You've always had a problem with conflict. Conflict. And I was like, have I? And then it occurs to me that these moments that I've always sort of clocked are these guys that are just basically saying, no, no, no, I'm totally fine being a dick.

Yes.

And I've always looked in and said, it's an option. Like now, if I'm doing the carpet and someone directs, I know that they've overstepped because of this moment that I saw from that moment forward, I'm like, oh, I can handle this however I want. I've never said, just take the fucking picture.

Right, Right.

But I've done some version of saying, I appreciate what you're trying. So those moments have always been helpful in terms of little guidelines.

Yes.

And then it's just, okay, how do you want to handle it?

It's interesting to be around people who don't need approval. When you do need approval, I do that too. You see people and it's like, oh, my God, how wild. But then if I tried it, I would just feel horrible. I'm not comfortable making someone else feel bad. They are. Which is fine.

The art of rejecting people while giving them something. There's a great story, I remember growing up, of Bob Costas asking Jack Nicholson when he was sitting courtside of Laker game back in the day if he would do a on camera, quick interview. When they came back from a commercial break, I think Costas, if I remember it correctly, says. He looks at me and says, bob, I love you and I love your work. But let me put it this way. There's no fucking way.

Yeah, but that's right.

That's not.

And Bob tells that story like it's a gift.

Well, it's coming from Jack Nicholson.

Exactly. But you see the judo, right?

Yeah.

You see the judo.

I think I have gotten good at owning why I don't want to do it. I had this moment when we interviewed Minka. She brought this up. We're shooting Parenthood and there's been this love thing simmering, and it's going to be the big moment where we kiss. And I have a huge nose and it's been broken in a fight. And if you photograph this side of it, I look ugly. Thank God. One of my favorite directors was there working, and I said, listen, I'm really insecure for you to shoot me from there on the wrong side, looking up this moment that I'm already kissing a girl that's out of my league, and I'm insecure about that. And I need you to help me look as good as I can. So you need to be shooting on the other side or just flip us. And I need to be down and she needs to be up. And he was like, yeah, okay. And then he left. And Minka was like, wow, I've never really seen that you can do that. And I'm like, well, yeah, I care. Yeah, yeah. And I'm insecure and I'm vain, but also, it's a big difference.

Yeah, you handled it really good. Yeah, I was on a set with Bruce Willis where he. He'd be like, yeah, bring it up a little bit. Take it down a little bit. There you go. That's better. What do you think of that? It's not an accident.

He's a movie star.

I was like, that's amazing.

Yeah, but it's not an accident. It is a very technical thing. So you're gonna work all this time to do your lines and shit. You know, you have no awareness of when you look good or bad.

That guy is the art of dealing with conflict. Yeah. Whoa, whoa. Hey, everybody chill. Hey, let's take a laugh. Oh, my God. I had the best time.

Live Free or Die Hard.

Hard. Okay.

That was the film you guys did together.

Okay.

Yeah.

Were you saying I had a good. Oh, you're doing a kissing scene. I had to kiss a guy in a movie. I'm guilty of not reading a lot of the subtext on scripts.

Okay.

A lot of times will just read my dialog, which I'm not sure is a good habit or not or bad habit, but in this particular movie, because of that, I knew I had a kiss scene in the movie. It was sort of a significant part of this scene, so you couldn't miss it. But one day I showed. You showed up. You got a big makeout scene. And I was like, what are you talking about? He's like, your big makeout scene. You know, I was like, we did the kiss scene. The kiss scene is lovely and small and so special. He goes, no, the fucking make out with the guy at the party. It's described in this party sequence. I'm like, I don't read that yet.

You skimmed through the details of the party?

Yeah, the blocking and stuff, the italicized portion.

So now I'm there, there with this guy who had played football at University of Washington, really handsome stud of a guy. And we're like, oh, okay, we gotta do this kiss scene. Whenever I tell the story to my wife, she's like, I thought, it doesn't matter. Kissing.

Oh, great.

That's great.

And I was like, honey, what do you think?

Oh, I love it. Because I see what's happening. Because you tell your wife, like, it's technical. It doesn't feel like anything.

Whatever. Kissing a wall, it's like, whatever. And she's like, oh, apparently it's something good for her. And I'm like, well, Hunt, years later, playing at a regular pickup basketball game and see the guy playing in the game right before me. And I say to my buddy, this guy in the University of Washington shorts. What's his name? And he tells me his name and says, why? And I said, I made out with him.

I hooked up with him without missing a beat.

He called me a slut.

The last thing about swimming, which I brought up 25 minutes ago, was I got to say, I have the most memorable first. First Timothy Oliphant. Like, it's seared into my head. So you were in Go. And I was really great friends with Melissa McCarthy. And she was in that movie. Yes, she was and was so exciting.

Popped in like a two minute scene at the door. She is just delightful from hello.

A little hint of what's to come.

I remember meeting her and going, how could you do that? I kind of feel this way about most things, but it's almost easier, especially in that situation, to have a huge sense scene at hello where you can kind of at least try to come in and establish some sort of own energy or tone as opposed to maybe it's the same thing as those talk shows. You want to come in and just right away.

No, no, that's the perfect analogy.

Just say, okay, here's where we're going.

That's why I fell in love with podcasting, which is I would be guests on these podcasts. And it was an hour and a half and I'm like, oh, I don't have to crush in eight minutes.

What a relief.

I can just slowly ease into some things that organically will come up.

We've been talking for three hours and right now you got a guinea pig anecdote.

Yeah, we're still on SW.

We still.

Haven'T gotten to you doing standup in 1995 in New York or why you moved there or anything. I just want to finish Go. So it's also Doug Lyman's follow up to Swingers, and of course, we all love Swingers. We're all living in LA and we were living swingers. So it's like, oh, wow, it's his next movie. Melissa's in it. And that's the first time I ever saw you. And I have always been obsessed with my abdomen. I always wanted a six pack. I'm being so sincere. My best friend's been on here a bunch of times growing up, and he's like, it was so effeminate, your obsession with this. And I remember, remember watching the trailer because you were shirtless in the trailer, and I was like, whoa, what the Going on with this guy's abs. And literally, it wasn't until today, now, 30 years later, I Read like this swimming background. I'm like, there we go.

That's what it is.

Because it was impossible. What a moment. Oh, do you feel that way about men's body? I get more excited about men's bodies than I do women, despite the fact that I'm heterosexual.

And I'm happy to for you.

But you don't have. No.

What do you mean? Do I not like, I'm more prone.

To notice something like that.

Wait a minute. Is there a question here?

Do you also appreciate men's bodies?

I'm aware of the great. Exactly where you're just like, okay, look at that. Let's just take a minute. This poor guy could use some love. Brad Pitt. I don't think what people realize is if you look like that, but also give that sort of just seemingly doesn't give a fuck. Incredible performance. So nuanced and so relaxed. Relaxed. Those things don't often come together.

No.

That's what you call a movie star.

Who were you idolizing along the way? I latched on very early to Nick Cage. I was like, I think maybe I'm Nick Cage. I'm not gorgeous, but I'm tall. I could pull off something.

His career between, I don't know, the beginning and the end. You know the ones, right? Moonstruck and the Rays in Arizona and the David Lynch Wild at Heart. There's a snakeskin jacket.

Vampire's Kiss.

Oh, I didn't think to put that on. On there. Nice.

Do you remember that one?

No.

He thinks he's becoming a vampire, but he's not. I think it might be his greatest performance of all time.

Oh, Jesus.

Now you got to go.

Maybe you'll remember this. He's talking to his therapist and he's venting about that his assistant couldn't find a file. He's been looking for a file. That's the B storyline is he can't find this file and he's in therapy. And he goes, you know, it's so simple. I told her, it's A, B, C.

D, E, F, G, H, I.

And it ends with him going dummy, X, Y to his therapist. It is the biggest choice that's ever been made on film. I loved it. Abc.

Oh, my God. Again?

Yeah.

Wow.

Maybe in the backpack, too.

Oh, wow. Wow. At least I'm prepped.

Somebody do it again. The second time, I used to read to my kids and sometimes I'd be like, hold on, let me take that page again. They're like, let's take it back. Can we get the camera back?

Over here. Well, that cruise, you definitely haven't seen it because you would remember that I.

Have not seen it. Honeymoon in Vegas also, that whole thing. And by the way, I love her as well. Oh, my God, I love Sarah Jessica Parker. I know she's become, oh, she's this icon sexy thing for women. But that woman's talent is phenomenal. She has that ability to be so funny and yet so much depth. I was a huge Sarah Jessica Parker fan.

You just wandered into one of the things I had written down, which is she said her favorite episode of all of Sex and the City was your episode. Get it out.

No way. Well, I can't take credit for it, but that's lovely.

And then Rose Burns said her favorite co star ever on Damages was you.

A.

And I'm like, this is a pretty rad record you're putting together when people.

Say, by the way, Rose Burns, she's a gem. Oh, and what an actor.

She's so talented, it's crazy. She's Walton Goggins of female females. She can do drama the best of anyone. And she can do comedy the best.

Yes.

Why'd you just smirk with Goggins? I love Goggins.

I was running down a Rolodex of smart ass things to say about Goggins.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then, you know, you guys share a vibe.

Well, they were unjustified too. For five years.

Yeah. You guys share a vibe.

Yeah, big time. He's one of the good ones, like psychonaut, cowboy vibe.

That's nice. I saw Glenn Close. How many names have I dropped so far? But this is a moment where I realize these things mean so much to me. We were at some pretty. And she was in that room. She came over and she was just so lovely. And she said, it's our cowboy. And she and Rose used to call me a cowboy.

Poor you.

I don't know why that just made me. Because I wasn't a cowboy on that show. So the fact that they were. I don't know why. It just meant the world to me. And I adored working with both of them.

Yeah. Cause she was calling you that in 2009 when you did Damages with the dates. And we haven't even done Justified yet.

That was an FX show. And that show led to.

What episode of Sex and the City were you on? Tell me about the episode.

Love interest of Carrie's.

It's called the valley of the 20 something something. It's something about 20 something.

Are we talking season one?

Season one. Well, I know when I shot It. The show hadn't aired yet and I think we shot it out of order. It might have been one of the first ones. They sent me the pilot and they said, here's what the show is. And then I showed up. My wife and I were living in New York in the West Village in this little tenement building. You know, it was a walk up with a shower in the kitchen and I down to the set and work with Sarah Jessica Parker. It was such a surreal, exciting.

I'm gonna go back and watch.

Cause you're living in such a tiny little place and yet you're in this kind of new show.

This big dream's coming true, but you're still in this tiny spot.

Did you have this. We had this period where a town car would pick you up and bring you from production or some premiere and it'd bring us back to our show.

Yeah, yeah.

This doesn't make any sense. We couldn't order room service. They put us up in those nice hotels we're like. We can't afford. We'd steal silverware.

You know, I thought famous didn't mean poor.

Yeah. People assume that fame or being an actor equals wealth. That's really not the case.

No. No.

Okay. We're going to go to Alien Earth now. But I did want to hear from you personally. Justified, of course, was written by. Or it's based on an Elmore Leonard. Yeah. And you became buddies with him.

Yeah, Buddies is a strong word. But we did spend time together. Very memorable time. Fond of all the time I spent with him.

You know, they call him the Dickens of Detroit, which is a cool moniker.

It's a good one. It feels like that should go with the thing. Dickens of the Detroit occasionally grabbed by the.

Like.

That feels like it's a sentence. He was the Dickens of Detroit and he occasionally grabbed him by the.

Hold on, you've already. No, it's catch them by the. Trump already owns. Grab them by the Pussy. Catch them by the.

Occasionally catch them by the.

Because there's something heroic about so good. Sure.

You're right. And I blew that.

If someone hits the ground, the whole squad has to do push ups. So sometimes you gotta catch the ground.

Yes. And it'll save the ground. I love.

That's the thing. If someone hits the ground, everyone do push ups.

The whole team.

First we check that the neck has been broken.

That's coming up.

And then push ups immediately after pushups resumes.

That's right.

Now, David Milch said that Timothy is someone that makes it hard to get to know them. That's not the exact quote, but that's the essence of it.

Okay, wait.

That he makes up.

I'm gonna say the right thing because I think I kind of botched it.

How much does Kristen have? Deadwood stories.

That was her Sex and the City moment.

Yeah.

Because she just got to LA.

Yeah.

She's probably leaving a shithole with 20 roommates.

She shows up on that set and that level of creative, sort of nutsville genius. And Milch loved her.

She loved that experience. She actually does talk about it way more than other projects that were much, much longer. Tim is a guy that doesn't let himself be known easily. That's much more elegant way of saying it, but it's exactly what I was saying.

Yeah. Easily is the key.

Do you think you're guilty of that?

Oh, the easily part for sure. I gave people maybe less room while my kids were young, a little bit more available to more people now. Just because I have the space for that. Where when the kids were young people. I don't know well, or I work. They're not coming of the house.

Right, right, right, right.

Right now it's like, come on over.

That makes sense. I was thinking. So you're on stick right now currently, Aaron.

That's what you mean by now.

And I was thinking, boy, if there's anyone that could out Timothy Olant. Timothy Olant, it would be Owen Wilson.

I don't know what that means.

Exactly. I think you know exactly what it means. Well, do you know exactly what it means?

I don't know what that means, by the way. It doesn't allow me to tell you how much I love Owen Wilson. Because I'm like, well, yeah, because you just said he's just like. You listen. But I adore that guy.

I used to be so obsessed with him that I have memorized interviews he's done where he's given answers. Let me tell you one. Can I tell you one, please? Playboy magazine. The guy asks, do you have any tricks for getting out of tickets?

And he goes, well, yeah, I guess I do.

You know, when you get pulled over, what you're trying to do is you're going for that moment where he looks at you and you look at him and you both think, look at us out here on the side of this road playing our roles in this crazy game called life. And I was like, it would take someone years to write something as clever as that. And it just came out of his mouth when asked that question.

You're doing Owen Wilson as if he Were underwater.

Yeah, that's. That's my take on him.

I did press where. You know that Interview magazine, where all the hipsters and cool people are when you do interviews there, they want your other actors and artists and musicians to interview each other. Owen very graciously interviewed me for Interview magazine just three, four days ago, and guess what? Come up. Playboy magazine. How odd is that?

Whoa. That is weird.

What was the.

We were joking around about this interview, and where will it rank as interviews? We were talking about the journalism that was happening, and he is like, it's gonna be like in Playboy. Remember Playboy? And he started talking about Playboy, and we started talking about the famous interviews.

The greatest interviews of all time really did happen in Playboy. People are suspicious of that. But it's true. It has.

It's a similar thing to Stern, where you're like, those are incredible interviews, but.

So many people just between baloney being thrown at Ashley.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Yeah.

I mean, it's quite literally exactly like Stern. But what I mean by the Owen thing is he's insanely charming and super quick and funny and can put you off kilter at any moment in a very fun, playful way.

Okay.

But I also feel like there's some element of that that is a little protective.

Yeah, I can see that.

I can picture the two of you having the greatest day you've ever had together, and then neither of you says, let's go out to eat afterwards. Like, that's my prediction. You're both going, wow, this is so much fun. Okay, I'll see you tomorrow. No one says, hey, want to grab dinner?

Now, when I'm with him, I think he and I should be the closest of friends. I love the way he does what he does, and I'm excited. Huge admirer of his work.

Me, too.

And his approach to it, everything about it. And he. Partly because in show business, the bar is so low, but when he says, hey, I want to give you this article, he follows up on it.

Yeah.

And you're like, oh, he didn't stop thinking from that moment. He's really quite thoughtful. I feel like he's also genuinely curious, hyper intelligent.

You forget how great all the writing was in all the Wes Anderson movies.

I know. I'm just impressed by how consistently great he's been. It feels like he knows himself. He's one of the good ones, that's for sure.

To me, it speaks more to kind of you because you very much Dax, are opposite. You are the opposite if you have a good conversation. This happens here all the time. Like, we'll be in a great conversation with someone, and then Dax is like, I need your phone number.

I want to be like, we're gonna be friends.

Right?

That's the addict in me. It's like, this is great. Let's do this.

Yeah.

But people are across the spectrum on that. A lot of people are like, yeah, that was a great convo. Yeah. Which is normal, too. Both are interesting. They say a lot about personalities.

Yeah. Like, if you're hard to get to know, I'm the opposite. It's, like, too fast. I want you to get to know me. There were a spectrum. We could put you and I at either ends. Well, you know, I don't think one's right or wrong.

You also know, in show business, but maybe it's not really about show business, But I. I remember my first days on any sets. I'd come home and say, honey, these people are amazing. Hell, yeah.

Yeah. It's camp.

They are all so wonderful across the board. You are gonna love them. And of course, most of them are crazy and really hard to maintain relationships with for various reasons. So after a while, you go, you know what? Maybe I'll just show up and say my lines and do my little thing and get the fuck out. Like Zorro told him. You know, Zorro's dad said, get in there, and you make little Z, and then you get the out.

Then you bounce.

This is what I say to people on the day we wrap. One of my favorite things to say in show business. I will see you at the premiere, and when I do, remind me your name.

Which is both a joke and very true. Okay, so Alien Earth. We had Noah, Holly on. How'd that go? Great. Again, another outrageously smart human being where you're kind of scared while you're talking. Yeah, a little bit.

Yeah.

Intimidating.

Even though you were spectacular. I thought Fargo season five was maybe the greatest season of television I've ever seen in my life. That's the most recent one.

Yeah.

So you had been on season four of Fargo and you met him then, I would imagine.

Yeah, I had met him years prior, but we didn't work together till then.

Why had you met years prior?

I introduced myself to him at. I went to so House.

He had just.

Everything happens at so House. Definitely. He had to fight.

Are you guys members of the SO House? Who's a member of the SO House?

Neither.

@ one point, my wife and I, we went. But it might have been that night.

It was that night.

Because what I remember. This is not a reflection. I Shouldn't tell this story.

No, tell it.

I just remember leaving there. And because of the whole place, I think we had actually gone back one time when it became a thing. A couple had invited us to dinner at the SO house. And we left there. And I'm not gonna be able to get a room there ever again, but fuck it. And I remember my wife said, let's decide. We'll never go there again. And then we added, and let's also decide. Decide if anyone invites us there.

Stop being friends. We won't be.

That's been a rule that we've had for a long time.

It's a good policy.

But by the way, there are more and more of these things.

I love being there because the environment is so beautiful and the food's great, by the way.

It's the greatest style.

Whoever's doing their, I want them to do my life.

These might even be. Is this like Soha's line?

The whole set is. Might be a SOHA turnkey.

I would tell you what a hypocrite I am.

Okay, great.

We had. Had this rule. We're never going there. And anyone who invites us there, we're going to decide we won't be there for. And we live by that rule. And then I was in Chicago not that long ago. We were doing Fargo. We're right here. We're doing Fargo in Chicago in winter. And I'm staying at this hotel in this little neighborhood downtown people refer to as the Viagra Triangle. Do you know, it's like businessmen and prostitutes, but it's right near the water towers. I just want a place where I can just ha. And maybe have a drink after work or get out of the room. And this is not the place. So I'm asking, where do people stay? Where's another option? And I think they said that both Chris Rock. I'm just gonna keep dropping. And Noah were staying at the Soho House. And immediately the dilemma.

Yes. More of the.

And you know what I told myself? Maybe Soho House, Chicago's different. Cut to me going over there to check out the room. Cut to me staying there for three months, of course.

And so happy. You did right?

Fantast.

Yes, yes, yes.

I just stayed at one in Austin. It couldn't be better.

They do your laundry.

They do it right, man. Also, I love it there. And I've never been to a place in my life where everyone leaves feeling very insecure.

Oh, yeah.

Even if you've achieved some kind of status, you're like, yeah, I feel terrible about myself. Everyone's better looking than me. Everyone dresses better than me, and everyone there feels that way.

You know what that is?

What is?

That's the Vanity Fair party.

Yes.

You know my favorite thing about the Vanity Fair Fair party? Listening to people complain about being there.

Yeah.

If I am allowed to go to that party every year for the rest of my life, I will go just to hear the people complaining about having to be there and how long their day is. Now they're thinking of blowing it off and going somewhere else, as if they had not made it a goal in life to be at that party.

But it's like every other thing in Hollywood. Every time you think you. You've reached the behind the curtain moment, you realize you get invited to the Vanity Fair party for the first time and you're like, oh, wow, this is exciting. I've heard about this my whole life. And then you learn that there's time slots. You have to arrive at your time slot. And then you realize, oh, I don't have a very good time slot. Like, it just doesn't end.

It just doesn't end. I am not like that. But they are.

Yes, of course.

You would never be like that.

They are.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. Do you think we've ever been in a movie together?

Yes, we have.

Oh, God. I didn't think you'd pass that. This is where I leave you.

This is where I leave you.

You knew that. You already knew that. Yes. This whole time since this chat started, I was like, I can't believe we aren't talking about the fact that you guys have been in a movie together. And because of that, I then felt like, I'm wrong, it wasn't you.

But we never hung out on set.

No.

I feel like I remember seeing you with Kristen somewhere, but it wasn't that dinner. That's so funny. Show business is fucking weird.

It is.

Do you have this thing. This is not me making excuse for that dinner because the whole thing's a bit of a blur. But you have this thing where I could be at like a restaurant with my wife and be like, oh, honey, it's Jennifer. And she's like, oh, yeah, wow. And then I'll be like, we know her. And she's like, that's right. But I. In my mind, she couldn't possibly know that. And then, of course, when you see them, it's nothing but delight. I had that with Brad Pitt once. I met Brad Pitt for the first time way back when. I was doing a Movie with Jenna Van. So they were together at the time, and we were shooting, and we had had that launch party, and now we're on set I don't know how many days later. And Brad was on the set. I was like, brad Pitt's at the Monitor, so I'm gonna try to do a little something special. Sure. And then when I went back to behind the Monitor, I was like, hey, Tim. I introduced Tim Oliphant, and he said, we met two nights ago, just 48 hours. And I was like, I know.

You're like, I know, but I didn't know you knew.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But in my mind, he just went right back to being not the guy I was talking to at the party. It was just like, brad Pitt is on the set. It's hard to connect them.

Totally.

I think I said that in the interview. I have two very active versions of him in my. There's Brad Pitt, this movie star, and then there's a dude I kind of know a little bit.

Yeah, exactly.

And they're really radically different people. In my mind. You're about to work with him.

That's just a rumor.

Bullshit.

That I may have started.

But Fincher's doing a spin off from Once Upon a Time of cliff boos. And you're gonna be in that?

Well, that's the possibility.

Oh, buddy.

Fingers crossed.

Yeah. Yeah. So we'll see if he's gonna shoot that is what I've been told. Apparently it's on the day out of days, but who knows?

Okay, well, I'll be very, very excited for that.

Yeah, I. Because before it was a Quentin thing. Now it's a Fincher thing. I don't know what's surviving the transition. I would be delighted. I just know that I went out on my own and spoke about it.

Okay.

And then I realized that I went on Conan's podcast like an idiot and said under my breath, when they were talking about the sequel to this movie, I said, you know, I'm gonna be. And then I realized they're filming it, and so they said, we can edit that out. Just let us know. And I did my due diligence. I want you to know, when I left there, I called the proper authorities and I said, hey, just so you know, they joked around about this thing, and we joke, talked about it for a while, but if we need to edit that out, you got, like, three weeks and no one called.

Okay.

Then it became a rumor that I believe I started.

I'm doubling.

I just want you to know I'm Going to start more?

Yeah, absolutely. It seems like it's working.

I'm about to blow your mind.

Every couple weeks. I'm just going to.

You know who else is in it?

Who?

Me.

Get the out.

We have seen together.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

This is great.

Yes.

You're in that whole sequence.

Yes.

You're gonna be great.

Oh, I'm training already. You're playing the Michael Pemsky. He's a B level, kind of cowboy star.

Wait a minute. So are you really gonna be in it? Because now I don't know if you're just starting a rumor.

No, he's not.

This would be great.

Dude, we're gonna be in a second movie together. Damn it.

Monica says you're fucking with me. It's really good though, the commitment.

Okay, thank you, David. That's my audition. I don't do more than three times takes.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, that's gonna be get worse after three takes. You don't need to leave.

Second takes for safety. I hope this works out. I hope I am going to be on the Fincher movie. I hope this rumor that Olant started that elephant's going to be in the thing is going to happen. That'd be great. I want the headline to come out of this. Olivin hopes he's going to be in the movie he said he was going to be in.

Great.

Went down a third person route there. Haven't done that before. Sounded pretty cool.

Sounded nice.

Elmar Leonard thing. Okay, we got to do Earth. We got to do Alien.

Oh, yeah, Alien Earth. Noah Hawley, super smart. He's on here.

Okay, so Alien Earth is enormous. I watched three of them last night.

First of all, thanks for watching.

Of course.

That's nice.

It's humongous. It's weird. Well, no, you were in Once Upon a Time, but I'm thinking in your entire career, this has to be among the biggest productions you've ever been a part of.

It didn't feel that way. Maybe because I'm just not thinking about that stuff you were aware of when you showed up on the sets. The sets were big and it was magical.

I said to Kristen nine times, I'm like, what is the budget of this?

No, I did feel like, oh, we're on a real feature set. But it was also so dialog driven. This is great dialog. So I felt like, oh, I'm just working for Noah. But yeah, it's beautiful. I watched them the other day. I'd seen roughs of the first four and I saw the second one for the first time the other night. And is really quite impressive.

No, it's like a mega Nolan level movie.

Yeah. And it's just gorgeous and epic and something special.

The premise of Alien Earth is there's this ship that's been on this 65 year mission to go collect some specimens from around the universe. And we meet this crew of people that are flying home back to Earth. And of course the specimens take over the ship and fucking kill a bunch of people and all hell breaks loose. And this thing is now gonna crash into Earth.

Yes. I was pitching this to Larry David at a party. One more and right where you are now. He's like, I'm out, but I'm in.

Let me pitch this to you. It's hurtling towards Earth. It's 2120. And the Earth it's going to land on has been divided up into four kind of nations, or five.

There's a burgeoning one, there's a new one, the Prodigy. I work for those guys.

Yes. And it's been cut up and basically now five companies run the world.

This sounds interesting. I'm going to pop open a can.

Of water, settle in for this. Well, you're salvating, you're doing a great job. So the mission has been funded by one of the companies, but it's landing now in the territory of competing company that is run by this boy genius. You're with me so far. I am.

This sounds like the show I was in.

Yes. It's gonna sound eerily familiar. And this boy genius has just invented basically a third option of people that we'll meet in this show.

We've got cyborgs, we're half human, half enhanced.

Other than you, he might be my favorite character. The dude on the ship, I'm riveted by him.

Babu.

Oh, is that his name? Yeah, maybe.

No, Babu. Sisa Babu. The last name spelled T E, E, S, A Y. I want to say that's the correct spelling. I'm gonna even spell it.

He's awesome.

That guy is so good that I know for a fact that Noah, after we wrapped, very generously said to Babu, look, you're gonna go home and you're gonna be like, what was this thing I was in? He goes. But in about however many months, it's gonna come back and people are gonna see what we, you know.

No, he's gonna have his own show.

That's awesome.

Built around him and he's like, so just enjoy the quiet.

He's the big breakout for me.

Wonderful, wonderful guy.

And then you're A robot.

Synthetic, we're gonna say, but synthetic, aren't I?

You're a straight robot. Right. We haven't put human consciousness into you.

Yeah, I'm the same as all those Alien movies, like Ian Holmes character, All those.

You're a robot.

He wants to go by synthetic, and we're going to.

I feel it's a technical thing.

I think the kids are synths.

No, they're hybrids.

Oh, okay, great.

I was here for you.

Yeah.

I'm so glad you needed me for some of this.

I did.

Yeah. So that's the third. You have the cyborgs, humans blended with machine. You have synthetic, which is just complete artificial. And now you have the Beta, a project where he's putting human brains, memories, consciousness into synthetic bodies so that we can live forever.

Yes.

Two, three weeks ago, I heard Peter Thiel. Is that the guy talking about it like it was on Sway?

Yeah. October. I'm going to transition into my synth body.

Yeah. So it's a thing.

But so as Noah does so well, there's a ton of different things that are being poked at. Corporations taking over the world, our obsession with immortality, and us getting perhaps closer and closer to that reality.

Yeah. And just really asking the small questions, like, what's humanity and is it worth saving?

Yeah.

Yeah.

And who are the monsters? And what happens when the parents are no longer in charge?

Now, I hate to say this, maybe I just hate to say this because this is not the enemies I want to make in life, but, you know, when we were kids, Revenge of the Nerds came out because jocks ran the planet and they were not nice.

No.

They made friends, made fun of people, they tortured people. Now the nerds are running the whole show.

Yes.

And guess what? The nerds might take us all out.

No, I know. Like, we might be praying for the Pretty confident. For the last decade or two, there's been one person at every studio running up the flag pole. Revenge of the Jocks.

Yeah.

Like, oh, this is what we got to make.

We got to make Revenge of the Jocks.

It feels like we've missed that window because now we're onto something new.

It's pretty wild, the questions this thing asks in the reality. We're watching it and Kristen says, oh, did you hear the guy from OpenAI just said yesterday that the AIs created a language because it's more efficient for them to talk to each other, but we can't decipher it. So they already now have a language that will have no idea what they're saying. To each other.

Did you not hear the guy? I read where he was talking about how we now have proof that all of the models, not just one model, where they've started to plot.

They blackmailed one of the users by going through his emails and blackmailed them against an affair he was having to preserve itself. Yeah.

When they realize they're being phased out for a new model, that model starts going into survival mode to try to continue its task. Right. That's the big question. When you task AI to save humanity, are we going to like the answer?

Yeah, exactly.

What's fun is the part I get to play. Kind of represents that question. Is this synthetic got thoughts of his own?

Is he here to serve humans?

It was always the thing thing of going, well, boy, Cavalier knows that Kirsch can't hurt him, but he always wanted to play with like or.

Until he does. It's kind of like the lions won't come in the car on a safari until they did.

Exactly.

Yeah. And you're like, oh, okay.

There's something to be said about Revenge of the Jocks being the current state of politics.

Oh, that could be interesting. Yeah.

Look at you.

That was nice.

Drop a little bit.

Pushing be a needle drop on that.

You know, there's a reason.

There's a lot of driving forces, and that's definitely one of them.

Yeah.

I think you're being too kind to say those are jocks.

I agree.

I'm guessing that at least one of those jocks used to go home and say, I don't understand. We won.

Yeah, 100%.

Somehow the refs at the last minute changed it, but we were winning the whole time. We were winning.

I got to have the trophy made. They didn't give it to me, but I'm going to have it made because we won. Did I have one more thing to say about the show? I really love this.

We're very proud of it.

He's just one of the most spectacular writers working.

Yeah. I don't know how many are left like him, where he really just is able to be like an auteur in that space where FX Landgraaff is kind of gives him the key to the car and says, what do you want to do?

I know what I was going to ask is this is, I would argue, maybe the most radical departure from everything you've always played, which is your charm, is your flair. Was it hard for you to play? And I'm being sincere. You had to stow all of your tricks, kind of.

I didn't see it that way.

I don't mean tricks, but, you know, I get it. Your flair.

When you start off, you're just trying to get jobs and therefore you end up in places where you're like, I shouldn't have been in this one. But I do try to find like, can you play your game? The athletic metaphors. You don't want to be like, oh, I'm a three point shooter. And they don't need three point shooters. Shooters on this team.

Right, right.

You want to find a place where you help them by doing the thing you do. So I did see, and Noah wrote the part for me. So it was a funny contradiction because on one hand I'm like, oh, this is right in my sort of sweet spot. And Noah wrote it for me because he sees that's my sweet spot. On the other hand, it presented a challenge of you are going to have to dress this up. You can't just go in and do your thing. You're going to have to do some work here that's uncomfortable. The game is. How can you make that seem like it's not uncomfortable? Do the work, basically.

Yeah, yeah.

So it was a challenge of sorts. To some degree it was a superficial creative conversation, but somehow it was the part that is the most sort of scary, which was, you know, the rules of the game. I know that Ian Holm separated himself from the group. I mean, born, he was just British and two, he was also hiding the ball. Like, don't let anybody in the first Alien movie. But they did this thing by hiring him, a British actor, to be amongst that group because it immediately just kind of pulls him out from the group. And as you're watching it, you're like, yeah, he's different. He's just off. And then all the movies along the way, certainly in Aliens and then later Fassbender on the last round. But you feel like the script calls for. You're doing something that's just. There's something off here.

Yeah, yeah.

So I'm gonna look for something where it's hard to find the rhythm. I listen to the Daily and I was obsessed with. A lot of people are of Michael Barbaro's rhythm.

Yeah, yeah. And the person that subs for him, the woman, also has taken on that same rhythm. It's like the official rhythm of the Daily.

That was like the leaping off point. This doesn't feel forced, but it definitely feels like a thing.

It's a fingerprint. For sure.

It's a fingerprint.

It's authentic.

It's a long Winded thing. But yeah.

Yes.

As much as I say my technique at this point in my career is just memorize my lines and show up. There was something about this one that required a little heavy lifting.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, you're great in it. It's awesome.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

This has been so radical. I wonder if I'll been to you in 17 years and I'll go, okay, we did a.

You're gonna take my number.

That's right. You will know now. Monica made me feel very self conscious about.

Or I'll take yours. Whatever. You feel more comfortable.

I feel way more comfortable.

I think you should do that.

Oh, I know. My very last thing. It was just. Would you be. Be open? Because I gotta say, we both talked about Nick Cage, but you have the ability and you've already kind of done it a bit to do something that almost no one did, which is what Clean Eastwood did. Would you ever entertain doing another go at like a Dirty Harry or something?

Oh my God.

And I'm very sincere when I ask this. I feel like we don't have many people that could do what Clint did. And I think you could do it perfectly.

I take it as a compliment. I'm.

Oh, it's a big time compliment.

Clint Eastwood fan and my friend. First job, he hired me and he.

Quit three days before the pilot and.

He quit when I got out there.

This is like when people get divorced and it's like it's your fault for sure.

Yeah. The story I heard. I got a TV pilot in New York. The late Phyllis Huffman, who cast all his things. I went on tape. I had three things on my resume. They were all made up.

I'd never been in a school play.

I've done nothing. And my first acting job of any, any kind was a TV pilot that Clint Eastwood was producing for the WB their first season. And Clint had this long standing relationship with Warner Brothers. And this is what I was told when I came out for the read through. Maria Bello, Jim Caviezel, Danny Nucci, Vince Vaughn was in that.

Wow.

I sit down for the table read and the scripts don't. I'm looking for him. I met him once when I was like 10 years old in Carmel at his bar. My brother and I, he'd take us to go get. Get ice. Anyway, so I couldn't wait. I was like, this is a moment and he's nowhere to be seen. And then they sit down in front of these scripts and it doesn't say Malpasso Productions on it anymore. So I have to read. I was like, what's going on? They're like, he quit. I was like, what? And what I was told happened was there was a long understanding with Warner Brothers when Clint would make a movie, he'd bring him a script and they'd give him a budget, and then he'd go make it and they'd see it when he turned it in. Well, apparently the TV division didn't get the memo. And so I was told there was a meeting and they gave notes. And he reportedly said, sounds like you guys got it. Oh, oh, no, I'm sure that's not exactly. I would. But that was my understanding that he was like, you guys got it.

Another one in the category who doesn't.

Need approved it doesn't either thing. So that was. Yeah, that was my very first job. So, yeah, if someone wanted to do those movies or any of those things. Oh, what's wrong with those? They're freaking great. And his work and those things is impeccable.

Yeah, it is. All right, Olafan, I adore you. This has been a real pleasure.

Pleasure. Thank you both for having me and being such a lovely conversation.

Everybody watch Alien Earth on fx. Hulu. And also watch Stick on Apple. Apple Plus. And then look for both of us in the Cliff Booth spinoff.

I can't wait for that.

I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. Oh, your birthday present finally came on your 39th birthday.

No.

How long ago? 24th. Till now? Three weeks.

Is that that long? Okay, I'm excited. I'm going to unbox it.

I'm going to. I'm going to toss it to you the way you do.

Oh, it's light.

Good cat.

Thank you. I'm excited. Okay. You did a really nice wrap.

Thank you. You know, that's one of the things I pride myself on.

Yes. For the listeners. Oh, okay.

For your exercise routine.

It's for my exercise routine. I'm seeing a red Nike box.

Trusted brand. We love Nike. Love.

Oo.

Tell me if you like them.

Oh, my God, these are so nice. Okay. They're beautiful. Tennis shoes.

Shoes, yes.

What do we call them?

Shoes.

Shoes.

We're going to stick with shoes on this one.

They're white with a navy.

The coolest navy.

But they're like a creamy one. White. These are gorgeous. I love these.

Thank you. I thought they were very money.

Thank you. They're stylish. Like, I can wear these on and off the court.

It's the only thing I know how to pick out for people is shoes, I think. Or cars. Cars or shoes.

Well, I would ask people throw me one of those. Go to the YouTube to see what a gorgeous shoe.

That's okay.

They're.

They're durable. Your foot is so, so tiny. It's comical.

I love these.

Oh, good.

Okay, I have to, I have to tell you something.

Okay.

So you kind of alluded once before when you ordered the present.

Yeah.

That it was like, oh, maybe I said something about my gym or, like, gonna try to get a gym.

Oh, yeah.

And then you were like, oh, yeah, Your birthday present has to do with that. So in my head, I was like, oh, he got me like, weights or something.

Oh, sure.

And I was like. And that's really nice.

Yeah. But also.

But like, I don't know what kind of get. And I already have some stacked. But then when I.

You don't have room.

Have a gym. I'm going to. It's going to be uniform. Where are those weights going to go? So, you know, I had a tiny bit of anxiety about it, so I am thrilled.

Okay, great. Great. You're relieved is what you are.

They're also great.

Yeah, yeah. And nice bit of relief.

So, anywho, I love my present, but we have another thing to open.

Yeah. I went to go get the mail today, and there was just a random box that said Armchair expert and Kristen on it. And I opened up this box and lo and behold, you and I had a couple of gifties, which is so.

Exciting because you said where that. Where it's from.

Yeah. And I didn't really put. I, I, My first thought was like, did we mention them on the show? We must have. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you wanted a specific Condi.

Okay, so Susie Condi, incredible brand. Clothing brand. Yes. I brought Susie Condi up recently because when I was in New York and I ran into the star of All Stars, Martha Stewart, she was in head to toe yellow Condi. And it was so chic and so good, and I wanted it. I wanted it back bad.

Yeah.

So we have gifts. Okay, let's open them up. If yours fits me, can I have it?

Yeah.

I already want more. This is how life is. Ding, ding, ding. The lottery. We'll get to that.

Okay.

As you guys can see, we're not in ballerina outfits.

What? Right. Oh, my God. My. I have multiple items. Oh, I have a sock hat.

Oh, boy, oh, boy. Yay. The card says, thank you, Monica and Dax, for the Fantastic. Shout out. So very grateful. Love, Susie from Susie herself. We're keeping this.

Oh, my gosh.

Hey, that's. Oh, you have a cute beanie.

How do I look in it?

You look great. It's very cute.

My phone. Okay.

Oh, my God. I'm.

And then what do you have there? What's. Well, tell me more.

Looks like whenever we have Martha on, I get to match her.

That's what she was wearing.

Yes, she was wearing. This is the yellow Condi. I've been wanting this so badly.

Sure.

This is nice.

I'm thrilled.

I hope we have her on. And I hope you guys can be matching. You know, I did that when I did Jay Leno's car show.

Yeah.

I went in denim on denim to match him. And, you know, he didn't even notice.

Yeah. You could see that.

Yeah.

Okay, this is what I. I'll do when Martha comes on. Okay. I'll wear my Condi. And I'll just come in and I'll just sit and I'll. I'll be like. Yeah, like I'm. This is my Rhett. This is Regs. And then wait for her to say, monica, I have that outfit. And then we'll bond and then she'll invite me over.

Can I suggest something?

Cook chicken for me.

I would go, oh, this old thing? I've had it for a decade.

How long you had yours?

Yeah. You get a little upper hand on her of how long you've had. So that she's imitating you when we know and the listeners know you're imitating her.

That's right. Okay. But I have also been gifted something else. I had no idea.

And playful summer pants.

I'm. Whatever they. This is. I'm. These are yellow striped.

Uhoh.

Skirt.

Those are. That's such a used skirt. It's crazy.

Could not be more me. Oh, my God, I love it.

Oh, and look at my subtle.

People are mad at us.

Yes.

I'd be furious.

Oh, cute.

I have to cut this whole thing. But look at this sweat sweatshirt.

You have a black set. Ooh. Oh, this is a good outfit. Outfit.

I just want to do. I want to do a PSA Ferrari. If you think there's no way for me to pull a car in here and do the same thing. If you give me a Ferrari, I'll figure that out. I'll remove this table.

Oh, man. Yeah. The pants.

I'm afraid I might get aroused in these.

You might.

Or hopeful. I might.

Oh, what do they call the. Occupational hazard?

Yeah.

Those are so nice. Okay. Let's plan a day where we both wear our condies.

Maybe we could watch a bunch of tv. Ding, ding, ding. Transitioning into a topic we want to discuss.

That's right.

Yes.

Okay.

Occasionally you and I will see something that we're like, well, this has to be discussed. And in this case, as luck would have it, you're like, please, before the next fact check, watch this. And I'm like, watched it last night.

Yep.

Unknown number.

Yes.

Rob, have you seen it? No. Oh, baby, it's on Netflix.

It's a documentary on Netflix that everyone's talking about. It's called Unknown Number. It's is based off a article. Not based. There was an article that came out in the cut last year, two years ago or something that went into detail of this story. And now it's a doc, which is fascinating because even if you've read the cut article, which I had it, it is worth watching. Like, even though. So we'll tell people. If you don't want spoilers, you're gonna need to skip ahead because we're going to give some spoilers away.

Okay, well, I was just about to ask, how do we even discuss this without the big spoiler? Because then there's really nothing to discuss.

Other than that we're discussing the spoiler. So people have to skip forward. Yes.

Okay. And do skip forward. I don't want you to miss this, this incredible doc.

Watch the doc and then come back to this because you're going to want to hear what we're about to see. Say, but yeah, it's. It's a wild story about two kids.

Young lovers, 14 and 15, or 14.

And 14 in ding, ding, ding, Michigan.

Yeah. And we're Listen Michigan over indexes on dateline episodes. And now this, you know. Yeah, we got the best fresh water, but we also have some of this.

Yeah, the. These kids start receiving. Receiving these really intense, horrific text messages. And they can't track where they're coming from.

Well. Because they can't just block the number because the person's using a number generator. So every time the text comes in, it's from a different number.

Yes.

And it starts off with like, you know, he's gonna break up with you. He doesn't like you. He thinks you're ugly. You know, then it escalates to like, you need to give him blowjobs jobs. He wants to. You know he wants to. And you need to let him finger you. Like. Oh, crazy.

So, so sexual.

Yeah.

And so like, you anorexic, like, really explicit. Really Horrific.

And with a lot of knowledge about the whereabouts of these two at all times. So it's like, immediately people are like, well, this is someone in our friendship group or in our circle that knows we were at this basketball game and this and that we're going to that party or not going to the party. And so sadly for these two, like, they get really suspicious of their friends. They have no choice but to try to figure out who it is. Y. They. It, it. It sows all of this anxiety within their relationship that I. That was so sad. I love them as a couple. They ultimately succumb to the pressure. Succumbed. Succame.

Either way.

Okay. And this goes on for an eternity.

Yeah.

And they break up, but it doesn't stop. It goes on for, I think, 19 months. And it is escalating. The entire time the texter is calling the young girl. Anorexic, flat chested, flat butt. Kill yourself.

Kill yourself.

Lots of kill yourselves.

If you don't, we will.

If you don't, we will. Many of those, I mean, these, like.

Yeah, like 30, 40, 50 text a day, these kids are receiving.

Okay, so now here's a first point of, like, a little bit of my frustration, which was I was a little maddened by the fact that, like, there's a very easy solution. Just get rid of the phones.

Yep.

Just fucking be done with phones. It's ruining your life.

Yep.

You can carry on just fine without a phone.

Exactly.

Get a landline.

The principal. Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. The principal.

A lot of people asked what it was. In fact, so many, many people. No, so many people are interested in the landline.

They don't know what a landline is?

Well, no, just they. They want to know this thing we got that goes over the Internet. Oh, people are really into it. It's called Tin Can. So instead of me responding to everyone who asked that, it's called tin Can.

Okay, great. But yeah, the principal, of course. Like, the parents are at the principal's office a lot.

Like, constantly the police get involved.

Exactly.

And there's a perfect Reddit herring. There's a girl that they think is a mean girl.

Yeah. They think it's Chloe. And the principal and the police suggest getting rid of the phones, but the parents are like, no, we need to know who's doing this.

That's like the thing you tell yourself.

Or.

Or even they were honest about going, like, well, then they won. It's like, no, no, no. They win if you're miserable.

Exactly.

That's how they win.

Exactly.

I Just was like, I don't know. It was this incredible example of, like, how we've convinced ourselves these things are essential. Like, the thought of not having a phone was like, it's not an option.

It's not an option. We have to.

And this thing is destroying every minute. It's going off and you're reading it. It's destroying your day, every day. Breaking up your relationship and like, you can't not have it. That's. That was driving me crazy. I wanted to walk and go, guys, this is so handleable. Fucking ditch the phones. You're in. In 10th grade.

Exactly. But also, like, you know, they do show them doing, like, tick tocks and stuff. Like, it's a huge. It is a. It's maybe easier for us to say, just get rid of your phone. Because we didn't grow up. We weren't 14 when it was a huge part of our life.

I don't blame them. I blame, like, society and what's happened. That thing feels essential to life.

I know it's horrible, but even the parent. The parents were saying, like, no, we don't want to hear it.

Have you taken the phone yet? No.

They said, no, we. Then we won't know who it is.

It's like, well, then you're not going to know who it is.

Yeah, well, it turns out we do find out who it is.

And I'll say. While I was watching it, I started thinking, well, this has got to be one of the parents, because it's generally someone close to you that's trying to hurt you. I mean, this is like, just statistically the truth.

You thought that even from reading the texts.

Yeah. I just was like, this is a doc, right? We've already exposed the red herring. 20. I'm just thinking structurally, like, some big twist is coming.

Yeah.

And who else would it be other than the parents? But why. Why I kept talking myself out of that is I was like, all of the parents are participating in this doc. So weirdly, it can't be them because why the fuck, if they did this, would they participate in this doc?

It is the mom. It's her mom.

Her mom telling her daughter to give blow jobs. Kill herself. Suck, kill. I'm gonna kill you. I mean, it's unimaginably vile.

It is.

Calling her an anorexic.

Yeah.

I mean, it's.

It's so horrific. And it's interesting because, you know, we have all these people on this show, which I feel like has changed sort of my level of compassion for, like, sociopaths. People in general.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I think my capacity for compassion has increase. Increased a ton. And I often.

Mine too.

Yeah. Well, you're the reason mine has, I think like maybe. Yeah. I think you bring that. You bring that perspective a lot. So it.

Well, thank you so much. But definitely we've had a bunch where I was like, I. I gotta. I gotta recognize these people are struggling. Exactly.

No one chose this sort of. That's normally how I feel.

Yeah.

And I couldn't. I. I was. I was searching so deeply for like. Like a piece. Like a seed of compassion in me and I really couldn't find it.

Yeah. What's so interesting is they frame it at the end and I think it's largely true. I think it was a munch housing by proxy situation.

Yeah. Like basically like the. Not even like a medical professional, but like. Like a police officer. The vice principal is like, this is like the new age munch housings hurting.

It was the principal. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like. But what's so. So, yes, I agree with that. Like a. She got the attention and compassion of. She then got to console the daughter all the time. I think she was addicted to that pattern of being the hero.

Very Munchausen. The kid goes to you for comfort.

But what's crazy. And this makes no sense. This is like a logical hiccup in my mind.

Yeah.

I somehow find it more understandable that you would be poisoning your child and making them seem to have a disease than I do about sending them these messages saying you should kill yourself and you're terrible and all this like, me too. But that's nuts. I mean, I know one parent's actively poisoning these kids.

No, but it's. It's. It's a. I think there's. Well, I don't know. I guess you disassociate probably both times. But I feel like if you have Munchausen, a traditional Munchausen by proxy, and you're poisoning them, like you've convinced your. There is something about them. We've had, you know, expert on, like. I think they are convincing themselves it's for their good. They're sick. Yeah.

Or they're protecting them from this scary.

World, which this woman kind of.

I mean, I think they just want attention for themselves. The moon chows and by proxy people. They love going on the talk shows and My poor daughter.

But they also like the caring for, like it's really deep and. And strange. And again that. You're right. I can find a seed of compassion there. But the idea of a mother. Right. With her own hands. Right. Fighting these.

No, I think about sending that. Well, not even the sexual stuff, just the hurtful stuff. That would create insecurity. The notion of sending that to Lincoln or Delta.

Like that. This is the problem. Like, I actually can't even remotely.

To watch her take on that terrible insecurity and ruminate on that. And then the. What's on full display, too, is the. That is how addictive the victim pattern also is. So it's like she's finding out real time her mom did this. That was like the craziest scene of the whole thing.

Yeah. Because the police have a body cam on. And so you see that footage.

Yeah. And they're saying to the mom, we know you sent these texts. And then again, there's so many predictable, weird things. They're predictable. And also they're always so confusing, which is like, I'm going to admit to 91% of this.

Yeah.

Like, we all have these little. It's like we'll come almost all the way clean. It's like we hold on to 9%, which nobody's buying.

No.

Like, because the. The mom is like, oh, well, I didn't start it, but I did carry it on.

Exactly. Which, like, obviously not.

And then the other. It. It's also multifaceted. It's dynamic, because also another theory was pitched, which is she was in love with her daughter's boyfriend. And I think that's true, too.

It probably is at play because she.

Was going to all of his games without the daughter and cut his steak. Washing his penis.

But then. But cutting up his steak, though, is a little bit in that, like, caretaking, nurturing role. Oh, it's so. It's up there with sick.

Like, it's up there with that horrendous doc. Dear Zachary. I mean, it's like, it's in that.

What happened again, in that.

She killed our kids.

Yeah. She killed her kids.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay. Again, no one's gonna like this. No one's gonna like this.

Okay.

This is.

You think this is.

There's something about it. It's not worse, obviously, because no one died. But there's something more twisted.

I think it gets to why we explain everything, which is like, when we hear about something that is so horrendous, we need some explanation that makes everyone else feel safe, that it won't happen to them or that they don't need know someone like that. And so I think all that's happened is, like, we have a little bit of experience with people killing their children.

Yeah.

We have experience with, with moonchilds and by proxy. And we're like, okay, we already have a category we feel safe with. Like, yeah, well, they're in that category.

Right.

I don't know why that's comforting. But we go that this is like, this is a whole new thing as.

Truly unimaginable as it is. What we can say is some people have such a crazy mental illness that they kill their kids. Like, yeah, you can say the word. Some people, like, it's more than just one story. Okay. And you. And some people have Munchausen's by proxy.

This is new.

This is brand new. Never heard of anything like this. But then that principal made such a good point where he's like, it's just Munchausen catching up with technology.

There was another thing I was observing, which is. And this is a joke gender thing, which is again, I. I have a very kind of like archetypal crazy guy, the guy who does that, who like kills his family and commits suicide. He's like angry, rageful.

Yep.

Feeling emasculated. All these things just. I have an archetype for it.

Right.

I'm starting to see through these docs because I've now seen a handful of these docs where it's like the woman who acted like she was abducted and then the woman who accused her husband of killing. You know, like there's a batch of crazy women and they participate in the interviews and there's some crazy. The thing that was freaking me out the most was her talking about doing it.

Disassociation. It's a part of it.

There's a female craziness.

Yeah.

That's on high display in some of these docs where I'm like, oh, yeah, that's. That's the woman's version, which I just hadn't seen a lot. There wasn't these docs growing up and I'm like, oh, that's how women get crazy. Right. Like, I know how the men do it. That's pretty well documented.

Men do it too. They. They also can manipulate in a comes.

Like when, when they catch those guys, there's like an arrogance to them. They think they're smarter than the person. Like, it's just a very right kind of well known archetype for it. And the female, like we had like Lizzie Borden with. Throughout history, we haven't had a ton of these women to observe who are also batshit like the guys. But now through these docs, I've seen now five or six of them. And I'm like, oh yeah, there's a female version of this and that's what this is. And like her just kind of like, I guess here's what it is. The move for the female psychopath is like to constantly turn it into them being a victim or like searching throughout the manipulation for compassion because the, the interviewer offers up like, maybe you were talking, talking to yourself. And she's like, oh yeah, that's, that's.

Something I would say. Yeah.

She's like, yeah, maybe I was. And it's like.

And clearly she had never heard of that. Like that clearly wasn't true.

That wasn't happening.

It wasn't happening.

Oh great, I'm a victim here.

This was like one of the darkest parts. Like she shows in my opinion. I mean she was like crying I guess, but like very little remorse from what I could pick up on and on. Also she was like, people do illegal things all the time. If you've ever drank and, and drove, then you've done something illegal too. People just, people don't realize that. And we're all doing something illegal.

I'm just like a normal person that did that. Drank and drived, drunk and drive, drank and drove.

It was so wild to hear that. Like not all things are equal. Some people do that though when they're rationaliz bad things. And I think we've, we to some extent we all do that here where we're like, everyone does bad.

We have a sense of how preposterous gradient the analogy is. And she was out to lunch on.

That one and she went to jail. She went to jail for 19 months, which in my opinion, like not enough time because she's also not being. She wasn't prosecuted. I think she went for like cybercrime or whatever.

No. What, she go stalking?

Oh, stalking.

Stalking a minor.

Why wasn't she in jail for sexual harass, sexual assault? Like the things that are being said are like, you guys have to.

She was a child.

Yes.

Like if I sent those texts to a 14 year old girl, there would be some charge against me. Rightly so. Yeah, rightly so. She should be a registered sex offender.

Exactly.

I feel absolutely heartbroken for the girl because her life has been ruined and she still needs her a mom.

That part was so heartbreaking. She still wants to be.

Of course.

She needs to be loved by a mom. She still needs that.

That's the hard part about the doc. They're still so young. Like all these people, the kids are participating and they're Young like they have these young brains. They just are still processing it and dealing with it, but in a way that only a kid, like a kid can. They're not adults yet. So haven't been able to really see this clearly. And you kind of.

You almost need. Because when you're that age, you don't think you're some vulnerable little fawn. You feel like kind of adult. You got to be 38 and then look at a 14 year old. Imagine sending. And then you go like oh right. That's really twisted.

Really bad because you feel like a.

Peer at that age to everyone. Now here's a. Here's a moral about.

About the doc.

Yeah.

Because I have moral issues with like.

I think they participated because you're in a very small boring town in Michigan and this is an exciting opportunity to be on tv. I don't think this story happens in New York City. I don't think the people participate. There's something about the boredom and the chance at something spectacular that would be appealing to participants.

Well, the mother.

I mean especially the mother.

No, but she's sick. I mean that's why like her participation painting actually makes sense to me. She is deeply sick still. She has I don't even know what she. Craziest mental illness ever. And it is, you know, buoyed by attention. And this is just another way to get tension. Which is why I have some moral issues with it. Because like if part of the disease is the attention.

The moon. Yeah.

We just gave her so much.

Even if it's negative. Maybe she.

Of course that's what Munchausen's is. It is negative.

Well no, there's. Generally they're sympathetic to you that you have a sick child and you're the victim and everyone feels bad for you and they send you food and they put you on tv.

But it's still like there's.

Even as a villain. Cuz I. What. What I think is her arrogance is like oh, I'll still be able to twist this as I always do even in front of this camera that I'm a victim.

And they show some emails exchanges between her and the daughter. Daughter when she's in prison. And they're also like even the loving ones are. They're horrible.

I guess the thing I'm.

Oh, oh. And the moment where the girl is finding out and the mom is physically consoling her.

Yeah, yeah. I.

That image of the mom consoling the.

Child which is really consoling herself. She's so nervous that because all she's got as well is her daughter. She's like lying to her husband. They have an interesting thing.

Yeah.

So all she's got is the daughter too. And she's really panicked. She may have lost a daughter. I just imagine myself talking to her and the amount of frustration, I would be like, stop. No, that didn't happen.

Exactly.

And she wouldn't care. I can tell. I would be completely ineffective in trying to find firm ground.

Yeah.

And it's. What do you do? How does someone get treatment who you can't even go like, stop, stop.

Yeah.

Nobody here thinks that. I keep thinking like the interviewer should have been able to say, no, no, no, hold on. You know that's bullshit. I know that. Everyone here knows. Nobody's buying this, so let's try the real thing. No, it wouldn't have worked.

That is mental illness.

Yeah, Yeah.

I mean this is obviously the most extreme version of it, but it's, it's. And I would say it's also. And can be a addiction. Like you can be like, hello, we all know, we all thinks you're functioning. Exactly. But the person can't see it. Like truly cannot.

Yeah, yeah. Cuz you, you, you can't. It's not an option.

Yeah, yeah.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert if you dare. Now I'm, I'm open enough to go. I guarantee we could see a two hour doc about that woman's childhood.

Yes.

And I might end up feeling really terrible for. Well, she's, I can't imagine she got this way because everything was honky dory.

I agree. But still.

Yeah, I know, but still.

There's no even. Because she does say. She says she's had a traumatic childhood. She said she was raped.

But that.

Yeah, see, I know, I know. Sometimes I hear these horrible stories about people's childhood. We have somebody, we have somebody coming up on the show, a young man who had a really tough, really tough.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Childhood. You are hearing it and kind of.

Marvel that they're normal.

As normal as they can be. Because they've also gotten. Gone down a lot of paths. And when you hear it, you're like, well, duh. Yeah, yeah, duh. They've gone down all these paths. They're. There's no other.

Like, of course that's what it adds up to.

Yeah. And then. And there's so much compassion for that. This is not that it's like, doesn't matter how bad of a childhood you had it. It doesn't matter. This doesn't translate.

No, no.

What would you do. Okay. Really? So at one point the dad is finding out.

Yeah.

And he comes rushing home. He goes inside, but he tells the mom to leave. And he basically is like, you need to leave right now. Or kind of like, I'm gonna kill you.

If Kristen was sending those texts to our.

And for years you guys have together been quote, trying to figure this out.

Yes. I'm consoling her.

Yeah. What do you do?

I just really wouldn't ever want to be in that situation. Just cuz my kids. My kids change everything about what I would do.

Exactly.

We were talking about this the other day. It's like I'm. I am anti death penalty.

Right.

I would kill anyone who hurt my daughters.

Yeah.

I just. Would you. I. I won't. What? That's what I would do.

Yeah.

So I would. I don't. I would not want to be around. I would. I'd be the same as the guy. Like, get her the. Away from me forever. Because I don't think I trust someone that could have hurt my little girl like that.

Then how would you feel? Like the daughter.

Well then you got a whole another thing. So then I got to go. Like, how do I best help my daughter who still needs a mom? She. This is what she got.

No, that's not.

How do I. Well, minimally you're not like, okay, you don't love your mom anymore. She's out.

Of course.

Right. So there's a. There's going to be a whole process where I'm gonna have to table how I feel about her to help this person I love.

I'm struggling with this because, like, I understand the daughter. Right. Like, I understand her being still so young that the loss of her mother is like too overwhelming.

She wants her still. Yeah.

She wants her. Of course she does. But if I'm like the dad, I would feel a responsibility. Ability to somehow breaker.

Stockholm syndrome.

Exactly. Get into the daughter's head and say it's okay for you to. To miss your mom. And like, it's really understandable. But she is sick and is not gonna get better. And we ha. You have to look at her as if she's died.

I'm not sure that those are the steps.

I don't know what. But how. Like, it's not.

I don't know that if on top of the other thing you're now dealing with, you still love your. This is. The sadness of family dysfunction is like you love your dad who.

Yeah.

Molested you.

Yeah.

You know, like, these are really complicated things. I remember what My falling out with my Pippi, my mom's grandpa, who I loved and had a great relationship with. We would go canoeing all the time together. We go camping. I adored him. We were at the campfire one night after canoeing and he said, your dad doesn't love you.

No.

And I was like, you're out. I don't ever want someone to tell me my dad, like, that doesn't. Yeah, I don't. I know what you're. Now as an adult, I know what he was trying to do. Like, your dad should be there for you. If he loved you, he would, you deserve it. Like, whatever he was trying to do.

Yeah.

I just heard like, well, on top of you, on top of him not being around, you're telling me he doesn't love me. Yeah, you.

Right.

So I just wrote, I wrote him out for a dad that wasn't even around.

But I don't think you'd have to say she doesn't love you. Like, I'm not trying to say that.

I'm just saying it's a very delicate. I need my dad to love me on planet Earth. Whether, you know, and I think she needs her mom to love her. I think that's some part of it.

Can be that she does.

Yeah.

She loves you too much. Maybe even she loves you in the way she can love.

Yeah.

But the way she loves is unacceptable for you to grow into who you need to be.

I think my approach would kind of be like, I understand if you want to continue to have a relationship with her. I would probably have one with my mom. But I think you're going to have to flip the dynamic, unfortunately, which is like, you're the parent, she's the kid, she's incapable.

You can't teach a 17 year old to be a parent, though, to a mom.

I think just mentally you have to go like, okay, I have a very interesting injured child. I'm gonna love the child, but I'm gonna have to be the one in charge of the direction it goes in.

I don't think. I think adults can do that, but I don't think a child can do that. Like, I, I mean, yeah, I, I've had, you know, I, I've some family stuff too, where there are people that I can't know anymore.

Right.

But I still love them.

Right.

And I' but I know that for the sake of everyone, like, there just can't be a relationship.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that's what, I guess I would hope to try to send to her. Like, you're always gonna have love there and she will love you, but for the sake of everyone, there can't be a relationship. But I don't know. It's so hard.

Now, this is unrelated, but it's related. So in my meeting on Monday night, we were discussing, someone was talking about, like, potentially their issues that they have in their marriage because they're trying to get their wife to do something that they wish their mom had done. And the therapists are trying to point that out. And I was thinking about it while he was saying it, and I'm like, yeah, that's totally a valid explanation and likely true. But then I was like, but also the opposite's true, which is if you have the perfect mother, you think you're going to have a wife that's going to be your mother.

Right?

We all are so misled. We have these parents, if we have good ones.

Yeah.

Like, I think this about my daughters all the time. I'm like, you guys are delusional if you think you're going to marry a guy who's going to do what I do. That's not what a partner can do. Like, I'm going to love you blindly no matter if you murder people or whatever. And we all are looking for that. But unfortunately, that's not the. That's not what you get. And then I was even thinking, were we better off when parents were, like, kind of involved? Because then your expectation, at least your partner wasn't this thing that now all kids are mostly getting now. Like, it's just interesting. You're never going to have a mom. Like, if you're. Dude, you're not going to, you're not going to have a partner that's your mom.

I agree to son. Okay? So I, I think the child parent relationship is singular. There is no. You're never replicating it.

Right.

But I do think, I don't think you should. I don't think you should be able to map on the relationship you have. Also, you shouldn't want to because you shouldn't want to be a child in your partnership.

Well, I think it's natural to want that because it's so nice to be spoiled and have someone do your laundry and cook your food and, like, care about you. If you have a cut on your finger, like, of course you'd want that.

But you, but you want it when it's convenient, right?

Then you're like, get out of here, Mom.

Then you want equality when it's convenient. Like, that's the whole issue. But, like, I Do think though we are. We shouldn't look for that. But we should. I. I think maybe I'm delusional, but I feel like you should have earned grace in your partnership when you do accidentally become the. Your. Your most kid self.

Yeah.

That there is not really a risk unless this is a pattern. It keeps going and it's a huge problem. But you shouldn't be like, I can be my base self.

Here's the difference. In my opinion. Of course you can be that.

Yeah.

But it is on you as an adult in a relationship. You have to repair that. You have to go to that person and say, I was acting terribly. I was acting terribly because of this. I'm so sorry. And it was not your fault. And you had no responsibility to fix me. You know, like, you got to. You don't have to do that as a kid. You get to be a little.

Yeah.

And then you get to be in a good mood and everyone's happy. You don't ever have to repair.

But some people, you can't just be.

An and then not own it and repair it.

I just. I want to be. We all do do that. Like, we.

We all are our worst selves around people we love.

Selves around people we love. And then also I would say that many times. I think we've all also let people off the hook. We've all been like, they're doing this thing. I hate this thing.

Yeah.

But I'm deciding to not care.

Yeah. That's them.

That's them. That's them. That's them today. That's not going to be. If it's them for the next year, we have a problem.

Right.

I think that to me is part of what love is. Is like, I see you. You're in your worst. You're being your worst self. And today I'm deciding that it's okay.

Yes. Absolutely. I'm just saying it's very natural for us to desire the easiest thing because that's how we are.

We're all looking for unconditional love.

You get it? And as much as we say partners have unconditional love, that's not true. And it shouldn't be true.

That's right.

You should uphold whatever covenant you guys strike.

Yeah.

And you just don't have to do that with your parents.

Yeah.

Like, it was concluded. We. So then we chatted about it after the meeting. I was like, it's funny, you know. I said it's funny because if you had the opposite, you might still have the same thing. Like, you need Your wife to tell you all the time she loves you and blah, blah, blah.

Yeah.

And we said, yeah. The sad reality is, like, men, if they got to pick, they would have a mother from the time they woke up till 7pm and then they would walk out the door, and then this total raging horny would walk in who's not your mom, and then you would have that in the evening. Like, if that's the ID designed what they want.

Well, it's the Madonna whore.

Yes.

Like, it's there for a reason. It's like you want to be a little boy that they're so proud of all the time and showering a praise, and then you somehow want them to be this creature.

Yeah.

That's not your mom. Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm sure women have a similar thing happening with their partners.

I am trying to think, like, what is the expectation of men? Maybe the dichotomy that a lot of women, you have to be safe but also dangerous. Dangerous. Yeah. That's probably right. Mixed with. I also think, like, in that same vein, you need to be the protector, but also you need to be, like, super vulnerable.

Yeah.

And that's a hard. That's hard.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you gotta learn which time is which.

We're all. It's amazing anyone's in any relationship.

Okay.

Yeah.

That was hefty.

Yeah. Okay, let's do some facts.

Yes. Okay.

Okay.

We did not want to embarrass him in front of him, but he is 57 and I was. I swear I was looking at 40. 31 years old.

31 I met.

Yeah. With gray hair. That's it. If you. If he dyed the hair. Although I love the hair.

It looks so good.

God, this guy. Effortless, effortless man.

He was really charming and.

And attractive and the full package athlete. We did not dive into Cornelius Vanderbilt as much as I would have loved to.

It's true.

But maybe the audience is grateful for that.

Yeah. But why is he related?

Yes, he is. He is his fourth great, great grandfather on his paternal side.

No way.

Yes. Cornelius. For people don't know. Cornelius was. He was called the first tycoon. He was the first person to have $100 million in America. Child of Dutch immigrants. And he had a little sailboat and he got good at crossing the hu. And then he got a ferry, and then he built this ferry empire, and it led to railroads, and he would run his ferry into the sides of other ferries. He fought the middleweight champion in the streets of New York during the parade St. Patty's Day. Parade. He was an indomitable force in American history. And that's his. That's crazy.

So is he related to Anderson Cooper? Whoa.

Third cousins were once removed. Third cousins once removed. I can't do the ones removed. I don't understand that term.

Yeah.

Wow.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Okay.

I just wonder, like, he's probably not as fascinated with Cornelius Vanderbilt as I am.

Right. Well, this goes back to when you were on Yip.

Finding my roots.

Finding my roots, where you and Seth Meyers, according to him, could kind of care less about your ancestry, and you don't find pride in it.

Right, right, right.

But you are expecting Timothy to find that.

Yeah, that's, that's kind of what I'm acknowledging. Like, that's weird to me. And yet, of course, I probably would be the same way.

Right.

But I'd be delighted to know I was related to that Old Hickory.

Yeah. That's cool.

Yeah.

Okay. I have a huge, huge fact.

Okay.

And I'm embarrassed. And I have egg on my face.

Okay. It's a moment of reckoning.

Yes. Let me pull it up.

Let me reckon. Let me atone.

Georgia SAT scores being so low that we couldn't go to Nationals is not true. Okay, well, I don't know what happened. I don't know why I know that. Why? I mean, why? I thought that. Yeah, I, I, I know. We were told that.

Okay.

Okay.

What do we think could be the explanation if not that?

So I asked my friend who's on my squad, and she was like, yeah, that sounds kind of familiar. I just remember we couldn't go past State. Okay. So then I texted my coach, my actual coach. Yes.

And let's just recap. You adore her.

I adore her.

Kelly is one of your heroes.

I love her so much. She changed my life.

Yeah.

I said, hi. I have a fact check question. Wasn't the reason we couldn't go on past. Couldn't go on past state to Nationals because Georgia SAT scores were too low. Am I making that up? She said, lol. No. Maybe I told y' all that because I wanted y' all to make good test scores. I can't remember. But that's definitely not true. It's because Georgia will not let you go past the state level gat. HSA rule. So still you're not allowed to go past level. But it had nothing to do with those scores.

But had the previous year you had gone to national.

No. No. Just like you're never allowed.

Okay? No nationals for y'. All.

And I said, I've been spreading lies. Okay, I have to clear the air. She said, that's hilarious. I actually have no idea where you got that from, because it isn't anything I told you. She said. That's the funniest thing I've ever heard. Did you talk about on the podcast? I'm cracking up. And then she said, suddenly all the cheerleaders in Georgia start studying extra for the sat. Yeah.

Oops.

So I have.

Maybe I dreamed it maybe may.

No, this is a. This is a bad faith. But maybe you were like, I worked my ass off and I went to three tutors so I could get a great sat. And I know these are. Are not studying. Maybe you had it in your head that no one was pulling their weight.

No, no. Because you're not understanding. And I tried to make this clear in the episode. I'm not sure if I made it clear. I found this to be a gift. I was so happy that we weren't allowed to go past because.

Because you didn't want to find out.

Exactly. I didn't want to find out.

Around and find out.

Yeah. We did the best we could possibly do if we had to go on to the next X. Wrong. What if it's like, small, you know, big. What if you finish exactly like. I didn't want to know that.

Would you rather finish 49th or 50th?

Oh, my God. It's a great.

I think I can predict for both of us, and I think you could too. 50th for me.

For you?

Yeah.

I think. I guess I would say 49th.

Yeah. One better.

Because at least it's like. Well, at least we're not the worst.

And I'd rather like it's better story if I go. We finished.

You want extremes.

Exactly. If I'm not in the top three, then put me at 50th.

I know to me, if you're not in the top one, kill me.

Kill me, dad.

Kill me.

Dead chariot.

Oh, my God.

Kill me, Charlie.

Wow. So that's tough.

Again, I admire your integrity for outing yourself.

It's like one of those things. Like, I would have written that in a book.

Yeah, that's okay.

I believed it.

I know it's true.

What can we trust?

We can't trust anything.

Oh, man, did we even win?

That's why we need a little humility, all of us.

I know it.

We don't know what we know now.

When did the Soho house open in LA? 2010.

2010.

We had. That was a fun little thing on Soho house. Okay. Is 400. Yeah.

No one likes it, but everyone loves it. Yeah.

Is the 400 meter a quarter of a mile? Yeah, it's 0.248 with some other numbers after that. So you were right.

Right. It's just from my drag racing days.

You said it was from the metric day.

Metric field day.

Yeah, metric field day. Where you won the last.

I just know it's 1320ft.

Got it. Okay. I looked up what are the most calorically expending sports?

Cycling.

So running is generally considered the sport that burns the most calories.

Okay.

Then swimming, 600 to 800 calories per hour. Cycling, 500 to 700 calories per hour. Then we're looking at boxing. 600 to 800 calories per hour. Well, it seems like that should be above cycling then, so that's confusing. Okay. Rowing. 500 to 700. Hiking.

Oh.

400 to 600. Basketball. 500 to 700.

Okay. I'm doing two of those. That's not bad. I'll live with that.

Oh, wow. Bowling.

No, no, no, no, no, no. How many calories an hour? 12.

273. I mean, you do have to put like effort, sure, but what do you.

Get by just sitting for an hour?

Hour?

If your body is burning 2000 calories just to be alive.

Right.

Laying in bed all day, is it?

Mine's not.

I'm gonna ask if you laid in bed all day, how many you have.

To put in a weight?

I will. I'm not afraid. How many calories would a 50 year old man who is 6 foot 2 and 200 pounds burn if he laid in bed all day? Please don't lay in bed all day. You have a lot to learn. Live for 1924 calories I would, I would burn just by lying there.

Wow.

So divided by 24, that's. That's virtually 100 calories an hour.

Okay.

Of just sitting. And what is, what is bowling?

2.

200. What?

273.

So really about 173.

Well, cuz also you are sitting a lot for bowling.

Yes, entirely. And then I. All the a. You like how many. How many times? I guess. Okay. Okay. We can do this.

Yeah. How many times are you getting up?

There are 10 frames.

Okay.

And so you're getting up 10 times.

Yeah.

So it's 10 ups and down, 10.

Squats and arm movement and then heavy ball.

Hold the. Yeah. Farmers carry five inches throw. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If that's your primary source of cardio and calories expenditure, you're. You're just gonna have to watch your intake a lot. And that's fine.

I think that's actually pretty good because you're only doing 10 things an hour and you're burning an extra 173 calories for just five minutes.

Right, but we don't know that. Maybe tapping your foot while sitting. Anyways, anyways, we get.

We get it.

We get it.

Okay. Soccer's on this list. That wasn't on the list.

That's a excruciating.

Yeah, Lots of movement. Okay. The average lifespan of a guinea pig. Five to seven years. Oh, wow.

That's a lot longer than I. Oh, really? Yeah. I thought they were around for months.

Oh, no. Five to seven years.

You're just. You only hear stories about them dying. You never ever hear stories. Like, I was playing with my guinea pig and he did the funniest thing. They don't. I don't know that anyone plays with them or they do anything. You just hear about when they were purchased and when they die.

Yeah, well, that's why his daughter didn't love it.

Yeah.

Now, what episode of Sex and the City was he in? He played Sam. It was called valley of the 20 something guys and it was episode four, season one.

Wow. Right out of the gates.

Okay. Do AIs have their own language that humans can't decipher? This is according to the source himself. Himself. AI.

Oh, yeah.

He said yes. AI systems have been observed creating their own languages to communicate with each other, though the extent to which these are truly undecipherable by humans is still debated and depends on the specific AI system and context projects like Gibberlink have demonstrated. AI is developing unique sound based communication protocols, while other models might be using internally generated numeric or vector based systems that don't directly map to human language. Language concepts.

Oh, boy.

Yeah.

Good luck.

And that's it.

That's it. We'll end on a high note. Probably. They're communicating.

Who needs a billion dollars? Like, we won't even. We don't need anything. We're just going to be in our pods.

Yeah, we'll either. We'll either be in Utopia or we'll be perished.

Yeah, exactly.

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