Transcript of Mom's Car: Liz Plank

Welcome to Mom's Car. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm BFAW. And today we have a very good friend of ours, Liz Plank. Of course, Liz, you know, what are you gonna say about her? She's a genius.

She's adorable.

She's adorable. Liz is a Canadian journalist, an author, a media personality. She has an incredible book called For the Love of Men: From Toxic to a More Mindful Masculinity, and a podcast that's also great called Boy Problems. Most importantly, she's just the funnest person to dance with. She's so, so smart, and I love hashing out ideas with her. Please enjoy Liz Plank. This episode is brought to you by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking the dress code at the new restaurant? Showing up in sandals and getting turned away at the door? No fun at all. Yeah, checking first is always a good move. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. The Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. We are supported by Uber Eats. Boom, boom, boom. In need of groceries? Uber Eats has you covered. From last-minute ingredients to weekly essentials, get groceries delivered in as little as 25 minutes with Uber Eats. Get groceries delivered with Uber Eats. Terms apply. See app for details.

Now let's get into the show.

And you're pretty tall.

I'm pretty tall. I'm dating— he's 6'7.

Okay.

No! I swear. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

Your, your boyfriend's 6'7?

He is.

What a stud.

Oh my God, do you feel itsy bitsy when you're with him?

I do. Yeah. And I never have felt that way, but he just walks into trees. Like, he'll just— we'll be at night, I'll be like, what's that? Like, I think it's a crumb, but it's like a branch. And he's like, oh, I just He's like that tree, like ceiling fans. Airplane buzzes. Airplane— he can't. He can't do anything.

So you're bringing me immediately to one of my first conversation topics, which is I noticed the other day you had a post and it included him.

It did, I know.

And so I just had this whole 10-minute, like, not even in regards of interviewing you, but I was like, I didn't date in an era where you'd have a boyfriend, you've gotta decide when you're gonna first post.

Well, you know the difference between a soft launch and a hard launch.

No, and I knew you would know all this stuff because I missed I don't get it at all, and I wanna know everything about this. Like, this must be a stressful part of early dating.

It is. You're tapping into something so real, 'cause we had a fight. Like, I— about it. Do you have to go get the food?

I do.

I don't, but Aaron does. Aaron gets the food and I deliver the food.

Okay.

Yeah, we split the duties.

Okay.

Yeah, go. I'll catch up when I get—

Okay, I can see you later.

You guys have a great time.

I did a soft launch.

Okay.

Which was just a story, and his face was hidden. He's in the background, the BG. He's in the— he's— we're— it's like a full body We were at Goodwill, and there was a full body. So I took a photo, or he took the photo, so the phone was hiding his face. And so I did that, but I didn't say much, and it was very vague.

But before you motor through, that decision probably came with some thought, right?

It did. It did. Because I've been burnt. You know? Burnt. Burnt. I've been burnt. And I don't always have the best judgment.

Sure. That's what I like about you. Thanks. Nor I. People with good judgment can get fucking burnt. Who cares?

Their lives are pretty boring. So boring. It has to be boring to always make the right decision. So I soft, soft launched, and then we had a fight a couple of days later about something unrelated. And I was upset about something. And so I was crying, and then I stormed the room. I was like, I can't believe I soft launched you. I'm an idiot. And I walked out.

Okay, so it's a real thing in a relationship. So you got in a fight and you regretted soft launching him.

I regretted it.

Because you're nervous, like, we're going to break up.

We're going to break up. And I've done this where I've introduced them to my family. This is a very canon event for people dating right now. Yeah. Because dating is so up and down.

Explain that term you just said, canon event.

A canon event is you tell all your friends about someone you're really excited about. Oop, there's a bike. Okay. And you knew. You knew. Oh, he's stopping for you.

This is confusing. This is— oh, shit. He's coming to get that Thai breakfast. By the way, this is not breakfast. It's drunken noodles.

Oh, okay. Oh, I mean, someone had a late night. And so— You introduce all— you tell everybody about them. I mean, I've done that with you guys. Like, you know, you brought me on a date. Remember when you brought me on a date? Yeah, yeah, yeah. To a date and it did not work out. So, so—

By the way, and then that led to earmarking.

But there's this fear that I'm going to introduce this guy and I'm going to look like an idiot. And so not only—

Embarrassment.

Embarrassment. Right, exactly. But it's funny because when I cried and I left the room and I said that, he was like, I didn't understand how much of a big deal that was. and like, I'm sorry. And then we had a whole conversation about that.

'Cause was it as big of a deal in his mind? No. No, exactly. Like, I'm assuming his business isn't tied in with his social media presence.

Well, I didn't even tag him. I'm afraid to like even, I don't know.

But you have a different relationship with it, I'm assuming, 'cause it's part of your business.

It is, but I've never posted a guy. I've really— Never? I've never done this.

So the stages are you'll definitely go on a double date with Kristen and I, but you won't put it on Instagram. I won't put it on.

But you know what's funny? Can I tell you the truth? Yeah. And this is gonna sound like I'm just trying to blow smoke up your ass, but it's the truth.

Yeah.

I have spent time with you and Kristin, and you are like relationship goals for me. And like, particularly like family goals. I think you have such a tremendous, silly and tender way to love each other. Thank you. And I told my boyfriend at the time, I was like, this is what I've always like wanted. Like someone who, yes, I'm attracted to, and like we have amazing chemistry and all that stuff, but like a silly, goofy time Do

you want to play while you're on planet Earth? Like, that's the declaration. Like, would you like to play? And now we have kids and it's like, oh fuck, now I got 2 more people to play with. Yes, that's right. Because I am only here to play.

100%. This is all for fun. Why aren't we not having fun? We were literally talking about this last night. That's so funny you say that. Yeah, it's so fun to find someone who has the same goal, which is like that this is all for fun. Like, we're all on a ride.

We're all trying to stay busy till we're dead. I mean, literally, that's what's happening.

Yeah. Have the most amount of fun and laughs and giggles.

It's so exciting when you realize you haven't been having fun for even weeks at a time and you're like, what am I doing? Like, I just wasted all those weeks. Like, it's not—

we're

gonna be dead in 30 seconds.

Not this heavy.

Yeah.

Do you ever think back at, like, times where you were trying to make someone the one, you know? Or again, you were like— or even with a friendship, or not even just with a romantic connection where you're like, oh, this wasn't fun. And like, I was trying to make it into something it's— and it's not.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. By the way, um, all love and respect, some people are very serious and that's what they enjoy.

That's true.

And yeah, that's great. And they can consternate it or whatever the word is. Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay, so back to that. You've never shared a lover on social media?

No.

And then you have this little fight, and then how do we get from that moment to what I saw yesterday, which is like full-blown face No, there's

no

face. There's not?

That's why it's a soft launch.

Oh.

And not tagged.

Oh.

And hard launch is when—

Now I wanna like, now I want his handle. I would not want his handle other than now I know no one can have it.

No one can have it. Yeah. I mean, maybe, maybe, I don't think he has to earn it, but I wanna know, like, 'cause again, I've been burnt.

When would you go full face with a tag? Are you engaged at that point? Really? Whoa. Engaged? No.

Oh.

So what did you and Ruthie do? And I think Aaron's got an interesting complexity to it, which is he's also divorced, right?

Right.

I don't know, doesn't that— I feel like that adds to it. Like, if you're blasting pictures of you and Ruthie before you're married and your ex-wife's like, oh, he's like— I don't know.

Sure.

Well, yeah, that did happen.

Wait, your ex-wife was married?

She could look at Instagram and see that her ex-husband's now dating a woman that he's posting pictures of. Like, I don't have to consider that. Or if I were single, well, now I would, but you know what I'm saying? It's more complex.

It did bring a complexity to it because, yeah, kids, we have 3 kids and they were, of course, younger 6 years ago, 5 years ago. And yeah, I did blast.

Well, my hunch is you went quick.

Not only did I blast off right away, Ruthie blasted off right away too. Okay. And we were very excited.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it was a quick, hard, fast launch. What's the opposite of your slow launch?

Or you're calling it a soft launch? Soft launch.

So hard launch. Hard launch is face

Like tagging, you know. But, but so what's the conversation you have with your ex-wife about hard launching, or like, you know, um, hard launching with a

new—

About Blast Off?

I took it right to the level of I said, I'm having my new girlfriend of 2 weeks that I haven't met in person. No, we did meet in person. I take that back. Anyway, a couple months, I said, She's coming over, and it was COVID, and, um,

she was flying into town from California.

Yeah, so I'm like, she's coming to stay with me, and my thought was, cool, my kids get to meet someone fun. Like, I didn't take it as serious as maybe it was taken on the other end.

Sure, sure, sure. Okay, okay.

So I had to look at it from her perspective, and I'm like,

yeah, she hadn't only known a dude for a—

yeah. And I'm like, well, like an asshole, I'm like, well, it's different with guys.

Oh, okay.

Why? That's fair. Yeah, um, that's fair. I think a new guy is more threatening to children than a new woman, historically, statistically.

Yeah, pedophilia-wise. The risk. Yeah, sure.

He has daughters.

Sure.

If we're just looking at odds-wise, do we think a boyfriend is going to abuse a child versus a girlfriend? I got— unfortunately, it's probably 12 to 1.

Oh, probably more. Yeah, yeah, it's totally right. That's totally right.

That's totally right. That's interesting.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's real.

Yes, that there needs almost to be more of a vetting.

Another unfair thing for women.

Right. Yet another. Right. It's hard. Because I dated someone who was divorced with 2 girls, and it was a big deal about meeting them. And I never ended up meeting them. We dated for almost 2 years because it was so— for them to meet a new woman, actually, because they're girls. I think the gender even of the kids also— Yeah.

If he had had 2 boys, it might have been different for some reason.

Yes. That they would be harder It's every romantic comedy from the '90s, the evil stepmom, right? Sure. Yeah. That the girls feel in competition with or—

Or will start modeling their dress and behavior after another woman. You're the mom.

That's threatening. Yeah. That's true.

I think in that situation, I would be like, you don't really have a say in whether or not I have someone visit me for a week. You clearly have a say over whether the children are there. Yeah. So I would've said, if you don't want the kids to be around during that week, I understand. So I am entitled to meet someone and move on and have this week with

somebody. Yeah, I think that's the right—

Yeah, that is the right move. I just— I'm prone to jumping the gun.

I would say if Aaron's most dangerous character defect is impatience at the very top of it.

Yeah, I'm afraid it's not gonna happen if it doesn't happen now.

Yeah.

And even purchases in life and stuff. Like, anytime he says he's gonna go look at a motorcycle, I'm like, oh, in 20 minutes he's gonna call me while he's riding the motorcycle. I don't think you've ever gone and looked at something and not laughed a little bit.

I haven't.

I've never been more confused in my entire existence.

Oh my God, you were picking something else up?

I was, and I'm like, no, it says I'm delivering to LaPain. She's like, I didn't order anything. It takes me 5 minutes to realize, no, I'm there to pick that up.

Oh.

Now, how are other people— because you're so dialed into young people and what's happening. I know, I'm not— I mean that seriously. I am. You are. Like, when I read your posts, I'm like, I, I'm educated every time I read one of your posts on what's going on. How are other people that are dating feeling about this? Like, when is there a standard when you post, when you don't post? Because it is embarrassing, I would imagine.

If I—

and then I'll go even further, it adds yet another stressful layer, which is like, when do you say I love you? When are you introducing someone as a girlfriend or a boyfriend?

Yeah.

And now on top of it, it's like, why aren't I ever in any of your photos?

Oh, yes.

Like, you have all your friends in it, you have that girl, you're not even dating her. And so when I imagine myself in the situation, and this might be anecdotal and specific to me, but I've always I just felt like the person wanted to declare stuff sooner.

Oh, okay. Then you wanted to?

Yeah, I just am very much like, let's, you know, let's not love addict out and go nuts, and then there's nothing left in, in 3 months. So I don't know, I think I would be really— I think I would fucking quit social media if I was dating. I don't want to be hurting someone's feelings because they're not in a photo.

Yeah, yeah.

So what standard is— are there standards?

It's so funny you say that because it's making me realize why I have been so reluctant to do it, is that I, I When I first moved to the US, I moved with a guy. That's why I live here. I'm Canadian. So when I say I've never posted anybody, I would post him because it was early Instagram when it was just your friends. It wasn't like a public display and people weren't as much like, I don't know, we weren't as wrapped up in each other's digital lives. It was like real life was more important. And now I think there's this weird reversal.

But we're living for the digital lives.

Yes. It's really— anyway. Insidious. Yeah. Very, very pernicious and weird. Um, but basically I would post photos of him and us and like, just, you know, casually without thinking much about it. Yeah. Which like, oh my God, I wish we could go back to those days just when you would post on Instagram and like not think a million times about what people would say that you've done wrong, left out, like whatever.

Yeah.

Um, and so I would post him and he would complain. I mean, this was a very, very abusive, toxic and abusive relationship. He ended up, um, he just got into ed. program. Okay, good. It took him like 12 years. But, uh, while we were together, there was no recognition of his drinking problem. But anyway, there were just a lot of issues in the relationship, very controlling. And, uh, so it— but it came out in that way where he would be saying I post photos where his neck was too small, like he didn't look big enough.

Okay.

And, and I would be like, okay, I'll take it down.

Sure. I mean, that's kind of on you.

Which I'd be like, okay. And but then he would insist that I would post too much about work. I would— I'd post about work more than I was posting about him.

Oh, so he was very threatened by your career aspirations.

Well, there we go, you nailed it. And so, and that was the gist of all a lot of other toxic things that happened. Yeah, but it was this source of sort of stress. Yeah. And so I didn't— yeah, after that I was like, I don't want to. And then when we broke up, I will say I was a little— maybe embarrassed is the word. Uh, I think, and this is a bold claim, yeah, tell me if This is

the place for bold

claims.

Okay, perfect. Very few people watch. Okay.

So, no one's watching.

If you've ever killed somebody, this is the place.

So I think when you're dating a man, you're either gonna become his wife or his ex-girlfriend. Okay. Right? Like, okay. And I think that it tends to be more embarrassing to be someone's ex-girlfriend than it is to be someone's ex-boyfriend. Like, I think that women are embarrassed by a larger portion of people that they've dated than like men, where like men would be like, oh yeah, I dated her. And like, even things didn't work out. Yeah.

I think societally, historically, there's been that you can't keep a man. That's a very well-worn, you know, cliché. I don't hear a lot of you can't keep a woman.

No, there you go.

There's no get me a wife apple pie. There's a catch me a husband apple pie.

Yeah.

So yeah, I do think there's this, implicit, can you keep a man?

Yeah. And that it's your fault.

And then you couple in probably as well the expectations that you should only be dating for marriage. And then if you're having casual things, that also makes you a slut. So I do think there's a lot in the soup.

Yeah.

In our circle, that's bragging rights. A dude who's had like 20 hot girlfriends in the last year and a half, you're like, well, this guy's got some secret I need to learn.

Yes. And it increases his value in a weird way. Like women do that where you'll be like, oh, he dated this woman. woman, so he must be, you know. And

so I've been riding on that for years. Yeah, Sasha CrossFit in 6th grade, and then it's like, it's just one led to another.

Talk about the people he's dating.

Was it like, did it give him street cred? For sure.

Dude, I really felt it in high school because in 9th and 10th grade, I was persona non grata. I was like, so tall and skinny, huge nose, brand new high school out of a different school district, nothing going on. And then randomly, this girl, Jodie Pizzo, Rest in peace. She liked me, and she was kind of the number one gal in our grade. And then after that, the door was wide open to me.

That'll do it. Yeah. And because he had been honestly, uh, you know, abusive, I was like, oh my God, I don't want people to know. I, I hate that people know that I've dated him, even not even publicly, just like within the grapevine. Yeah. Because then a woman might start dating him and think he's great because, you know, she thinks— You've cosigned on him. Yeah. It's like you've cosigned him. And then there's this fear of like, well, then, you know, that's why I think I think women particularly might be afraid to co-sign. Also, okay, there's another thing.

Yeah.

If you tag him and all these women are now like, oh my God, this great guy, and you have all these photos of him bringing you matcha and working out with you, and then you break up, then all these women are gonna now try and date him. And like, you've sort of, again, you've made him hotter by being with him. And then if you break up, like, now—

Okay, but now here's another fun, interesting, like, yeah, if you break up, why do you give a fuck who dates him?

You're able to do that?

God, yes. I'm praying.

I'm praying any ex-girlfriend of mine immediately finds love.

Really?

Absolutely. I'm feeling sad, probably bad that we broke up.

Right.

When Brie and I broke up, I was more concerned about her finding love than me ever finding love. Really? Oh, God, yes. I'm like, man, we were together for 9 years.

Why do you think that that is?

Because I love the person, or I cared about the person. And, you know, often that person wanted to be in a more—

Good question. Are we— I'm sorry. Oh, man.

Do we have another pickup? This is a big-time mess.

Pick up another order.

You're serious?

Jesus fucking Christ. Where did it

go? It's here.

I do my best stuff in front of Liz. I was telling Aaron the other day how I farted in front of you the first time we met.

Oh yeah, during the picture. That's such an honor. Yeah. That was like one of the greatest times of

my life. You should have.

Well, it's like when your partner farts in front of you. I've been begging my boyfriend to fart. Every time I hear a little thing, I'm like, did you fart? He's like, no.

And I'm like— Hilarious.

When are you gonna do it?

You would not have to beg Aaron or me. No.

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He picks up, I deliver.

Right.

And as you saw, it didn't go so well when I delivered. I promise I've had better luck.

What has been like the craziest way someone has reacted?

Oh, you know, I never see anybody. I mean, those ladies in that store definitely knew who I was. They're double confused because I'm trying to give them food they didn't order. I'm supposed to be picking something up and they know it's me. And so they know something kinky, weird is going on. So none of us can figure out what's happening. Yeah, because they're a little disoriented. But that's an anomaly generally because I deliver, it's almost always leave at door.

Right.

Okay, so back to standard. What are other people feeling like and what are younger people doing? How long are they waiting?

I saw a post, a TikTok a couple of days ago, and this woman basically was arguing to never post your boyfriend. Okay. She was like, never post him. He's gonna get clout. He's— girls are gonna like him more. You're— it's just like, there are only downsides. But I think that men are on better terms with their exes than women are in terms of their exes. Like, I will say, I, I think a lot of my exes would say like, she's a great girl, and like, she lives great. And I kind of have other feedback, you know? It's interesting. I know. And maybe— and it's because I've— oh, I've also— I have a bad picker. I think women in general like projects more than maybe men do when they're dating. Like, I think a man will meet a woman, be like, it's either like a hell yes or a hell no, and they'll kind of know right away. And women will kind of keep going and try and find or fix certain things,

right? Or have the, the fantasy that they will turn them into the person they wanted.

Yes.

What do you got here?

Yeah, I don't even know what I'm taking.

Let's see.

Okay, that's that little bag I picked up.

Yeah. What are your thoughts? You've had Gen Z guys.

I try my hardest to resist saying they're this or that, because I think what you're really seeing is like, it'd be easy to let a very small number of people that are very active on social media inform what's going on. And then I'm around in Nashville and I'm looking at young people, I'm like, they don't reflect at all what I'm seeing. This was actually another topic I wanted to talk about with you. I feel like you're perfect to ask about. This is where I am over— I can tell I'm overreacting. But with that said, you know, there's these headlines now, you know, is the Is it embarrassing to have a boyfriend?

Yeah.

There seems to be, like, this very, to me, concerning movement that is masquerading as feminism, um, that is like, to be empowered is to not want a man.

Yeah.

And that scares the fuck out of me. Like, I really think, like, oh, when the last of us are dying out of extinction, we try to trace back, how did this happen? Yeah. I feel like we're at this point where we're so focused on the political polarization, but I think I think there's massive gender polarization right now, and I do find it concerning. And even me saying it's concerning to me, like when I'm talking with Monica, she's angry about that, that I think like, oh, so every woman's got to get married and have kids. I'm like, no, I'm not saying that. But I am saying we were designed to live a certain way, which is not alone.

Yeah.

We're not solitary animals. And this just to me looks like more and more solitary living. And I don't— it scares me. So do you think this is a real thing?

Yeah. single for a really long time, and I wasn't happy single. And, and I didn't relate to some of the content, uh, online, which is like, you don't need a man and invest in cats and female friendships. Like, yeah, as much as that's wonderful, like, I really wanted a relationship. I— and so when we talked about that, it did make me like reflect on that ideal and, and, and whether it really was an ideal that I was seeking and if that was a, a good ideal for us as a society.

We're often only looking at one side of the equation, which is, you know, but it's like, does, does a woman need a man? Yes. Does a man need a woman? Yes. Like, the bottom line is men benefit so greatly from having a female they're committed to. Like, totally, it brings out much better sides of them. Yeah. They can learn so many things from women.

Yeah. And this is a discourse out there, right? Like, that the ROI for men dating women is high. The what? The ROI. The ROI. Oh, return on investment. You know, men will have more social relationships. They'll be healthier. They'll live longer. Like, there's ultimate benefits. Yeah. And for women, the ROI why is not as good. Okay. Like that women don't actually, like the healthiest, you know, sort of demographic of people are, are unmarried women. They, they actually will live longer. They'll have more time for their social relationships. They'll spend less time working and doing domestic work. For me anyways, both are true. Yes, I want a relationship. Yes, I want to be with a partner. I don't wanna be alone scrolling on my fucking phone on Netflix. And I'm allergic to cats anyways. Mm-hmm. I can't have cats. Yeah. And, and I also don't wanna be with a guy who's gonna make my life shit. Sure. Right. Like this first guy I'm talking about that like, yeah. ruins my life and is controlling and jealous. And yeah, so I think what's happening is what's always happened throughout history, is that like women are weeding out the good guys.

Like, they are like, I don't want to be with a guy who's not going to improve my life. And unfortunately, I think that is very unsettling because I'm not sure that has ever really happened in our lifetime.

Correct.

Right.

And we know we can chart out where that goes pretty easily. We can model that out pretty easily where that Sure. That goes to the death of our— well, which might be fine.

Well, if you think about it, that's what women have always done, because women didn't reproduce with all men. They reproduced with a small subset of them, right? Like, I think it's 60 to whatever, right? Yeah, yeah.

And so, yeah, very few people had access.

Yeah, because women are choosy, and that's why we got better as a species. And like, that's why we, we evolved in the way that we evolved. Again, I would like to think that what's happening right now, if we don't go in the dark version of it, which is like men are shit and like men are— don't even, you know, being relationship with any guy unless that's what you wanna do. And that's fine. Yeah. Like, I, I think if it's actually the middle of that, you know, and both those things being true, that sort of leads us to, I mean, in my opinion, like ultimate wellbeing, you know, that like men are improving to get chosen, right? Like, like you wanna get chosen. Yeah. So you're gonna brush your hair, you're gonna shower. Yeah. You're gonna have a nice apartment and yeah. Get a bed sheet and 2 pillows. Yeah. Like, you know, and then, but like, don't be mad at women because we're choosy. 'Cause like, yeah. Yeah. That's how we all improve, and that's how we all got here, you know? But when you said that a couple years ago, like, it did make me connect with this hardwired— yeah, like, like, it's like oxygen, you know?

Like, connection and building something with someone, it's a very old biological need and, and sort of desire.

And then you just get into— and you can almost not have this conversation because any time you bring it up, it's somehow baby But if you want to have a child, there's overwhelming data on what's the best scenario for a child to grow up. And it is two— now, that's not to say a single mom or dad can't do a great job. They can. But the overwhelming data says that it's best done with two people. And that experience— I've had them all. That's the thing. I've had all the great experiences. I've gotten to be famous. I've gotten to have money. I've gotten to meet all the famous people. people. I've traveled the world. None of them even compares to this experience of getting to give everything I've acquired to other human beings, which are our children.

Yeah.

That experience, for me, if I had to pick on my deathbed what I missed, I would definitely miss being famous, miss being successful, miss being anything. I would hold on to that. Would be the last thing I would ever let go of. It's such a special experience. And it's so suspiciously satisfying that what it tells me is like, oh yeah, it's me doing the thing I was designed to do, which is reproduce. Like, all animals— take us out of it— all animals have singular jobs. It's like to stay alive, to reproduce.

Yeah.

So it's just— it's kind of weird how much biology we have that kicks in once you start having your offspring. And it's like, it becomes quite obvious, like, oh yeah, minimally, this is what I was designed to do. to do. It's my only purpose here, you know? So then how do we get there with this other trend? And maybe that's how it is, then I gotta accept it. Like, if the ROI for women is lower, then I understand.

Yeah.

Then don't do it. And then— but if we're measuring the quality of your life by whether you live 0.1 or 2 years less or more versus, um, the experience while you were here— and I, I can only speak for observing my wife. Yeah, she feels the exact same way as I do about this child thing. She would give up a million Frozens to have this experience. So that's gotta somehow make its way into the ROI, you know, the evaluation of the return on the investment.

For sure. And here's the, the thing, right? You said, uh, studies are just generally 2 people is better than 1, right? Like 2 people raising a child is going to be a better experience.

We should be raised by 12 people.

Well, that's what I was gonna say. In the Paleolithic era, it was 12 people.

Yes. And that's what we should do.

That's what we should do. Yes. You know, because I get up early, I go and write in coffee shops, and I'll often notice it's, it's, it's often moms, okay, that are in coffee— it's writers and moms. Okay. And they'll be there with their toddler, they're tired, and the toddler will be walking around and everyone's sort of entertaining the kid, okay, if you're in a good situation. And we'll be like, hey! And the mom is just tired. I want her to have her phone time. I want her to get a break. And I'm like, oh, this is what it used to be like. Yes. Like, like she didn't take care of the human being from morning to night for the next, right, 10 years while being— having a job, while whatever. And so I think that we have to make motherhood more collective, like parenthood more collective. 1,000%. And then women will wanna do it.

And that's why the ROI sucks for women.

Exactly. Because we stopped doing it as a team. Exactly.

But again, I agree with you 1,000%, and we're charting it. So, okay, we started as it took— you needed at least 40 other people around you just to survive. Then the agricultural revolution happened, and now you really only needed your extended family to subsist.

Right.

So now we were down to 10 people. Yeah. And then the Industrial Revolution happened, and now we're in single-family houses, and you only need the immediate family. And now the tech revolution, now only one— it only takes one person to survive. And so that trajectory has not been good for us.

I agree. I wholeheartedly agree.

So it's like, I don't know how we go back to 12 people raising the kid, but I know going even further down to less people— Yeah, agreed. We need to have been designed differently for that to feel good.

Yes, I totally agree.

She's standing outside, by the way. Oh, great. She got it in time for lunch. She kind of knew. I guess she knew. Yeah. Do

we have more stuff? We do have one more. Okay, great.

But no, I love where we arrived. Oh, I just love this because it's like this never happens.

But again, now then I zoom out. Yeah. And I also think I might be completely overinflating the issue. I mean, A, we do, we do see that the birth rate is dropping dramatically.

Yeah.

But what's interesting about that, and a bit misleading, which was comforting, and that's— that is true for all Western democratized industrial nations, that the birth rate Again, you don't need a bunch of family members to work the farms. Naturally, it's going to fall. This huge spike we're seeing in the decline is really driven by an enormous drop in the teen pregnancy rate, which is fantastic. That's really what we're seeing. We don't really know, have we leveled out? Are we still declining just once people are in their 20s? And I'm praying that that's the case, right?

Well, unfortunately, I'm here to tell you it just hit this week. I think there's going to be a majority of young women, not teenagers, like 20s and 30s, Yeah. Who will be now childfree. It'll be the majority of young women.

Okay. And again, and that's— so that's scary again for me right out of the— just on face value. But then you got to consider, well, we also have a new technology in the mix, which is you can freeze. So you can delay that. And are we only seeing that? So we'll just see an explosion in our 30s we never saw that will offset the decline in our 20s, maybe. I mean, I know it's an expensive endeavor currently.

Yeah. People can't afford it. it.

It's—

I mean, it's right. Like, even AOC.

But more and more women are professional. You know, the college— you know all the male studies.

It's abysmal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're not in college. You know, women are in college. They are making more money. They are getting increasingly able to freeze their eggs and do these things.

Yes, that's true. And here's like my thing, like, Dax, like, I wanted kids like so badly.

Yes.

Uh, and last year especially, I was 38, you know, froze the eggs. I had the whole thing, and I was getting really close to 40. Now I'm gonna be 40 in like 6 months. But I thought I met the guy. Yeah. And he really, really, really wasn't, um, he deceived the whole thing. And it was basically was like, we're gonna be, we're gonna have kids, you're gonna move in. And then he was like, actually, I want an open relationship, you know, just like fucking like East Side LA hipster shit. Okay. And after that, I just was like, maybe I'm not gonna have kids in this particular environment. Sure. 10 years ago, I would've, I would've done it. And yeah, like, am I, I guess I, I don't even have a point. I'm just, is that bad?

So I think this new awareness is healthy and yes, women have been subjugated and And yes, the ROI has been bad. But what I think it has led to is a little bit of hyper-scrutiny of who they're going to date. I do think people are looking for the perfect person.

Well, for sure.

2 things about that. A, the perfect person doesn't exist. B, if you think the person's perfect when you meet them, there is a single direction this can go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They can only get less and less perfect. Right. Like, I met Kristen. She was a vegetarian who did communal living and was a Christian who believed in Jesus and went on to raise her kids with the Bible. Those are fucking deal breakers for me.

Right.

Not being a vegetarian, but just like, that's incompatible with what I want to go out to eat and blah, blah, blah. Sure. She's living with 12 people. And I'm like, I don't want to live with 12 people. There's numerous things that were not preferred in Kristen. And through growing together and towards each other, I like her way more now, 19 years in, than I did when matter. And what a better trajectory. Like, leave some places to grow.

Yes.

And guess what? You're not fucking perfect. The arrogance of that— you need someone perfect? Who the fuck is perfect to say that they deserve someone perfect? Totally. And by the way, I'm a dude that when she met, I'm jumping out at stoplights and fighting a guy once a month, right?

Right.

She doesn't want that, and she deserves better than that, right? I had only been in an open relationship, right? That's, you know, By today's standards, that girl, no way. On the internet, they'd be like, run, this guy's violent and aggressive and he's fucking all the time. And guess what? We're way more the people we wanted over time.

I think that is definitely going on. I think it's this over— particularly since COVID again, people are just spending more time alone and they're spending too much time thinking and not enough time doing. A lot of times self-improving instead instead of just being— the best way to improve yourself, as you point out, is to be in a relationship. And I do think we are trying to be the perfect partner. And I had that. I mean, when I started dating my boyfriend, like, I would call my friends who are married, not my single friends, because I know what advice I'm gonna get from my single friends. He's doing that? Oh, that's toxic. And then my married friends are like, let me tell you, like, you know, this is a— we've had this fight 100 times.

Yes.

And being in a relationship is hard and it's amazing, but like, if you are entering a relationship thinking, yeah, you're gonna find the perfect partner and you're the perfect person. It's actually gonna show you a lot of places if you're doing it right. It's gonna actually show you the places you need to grow. But that, yeah, requires discomfort. It requires, uh, vulnerability. And I think that those things are on the down, you know. Yeah, it's a weird environment.

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Let me deliver this real quick. This is so yummy.

I liked what you guys said when you said the ROI on the women are not— the return isn't I was like, oh my gosh. And I'm like, yeah, I can see that.

How did dating Ruthie improve your life?

She is so much like Dax that, um, yeah, like, he knows this. I was like, well, there's no way I found a female version of Dax. And it's not that insane, but it—

No, I said the same thing about my boyfriend.

Yeah, I

was like, he's female my best friend. Yeah, they're so similar. That's so me.

It's, um, yeah, it's wild.

Because you're my best friend, you do.

And guess what? Ruthie makes my life better every day because she doesn't— she does tell me how it is.

Yeah.

Um, and I'm still very standoffish about that.

You are. Wait, tell me more about that. I feel like guys, they want to be challenged, but then when you challenge them, they get mad.

Yeah, I'm really bad at it. What I'm good at now though is coming around very quickly and, um, apologizing and meaning it.

I think women get triggered in so many ways, like Sure. But I do think men, there's a— it's almost like you feel caught off guard.

I feel embarrassed.

Yeah. Yeah.

We were talking about Ruthie. I said that she's a lot like you in a lot of ways, in the way that my life improves by being around both of you. And you both say things to me that you're sincerely trying to better my life, or maybe just putting something else out there like, oh, well, maybe. And you're both so delicate with me because that's how I need to be treated. But I do sense that I—

You're so annoying and I love you. Yeah,

but I still am standoffish.

Ruthie and I's first tension was we went into a gas station and both of us were getting the stuff we know Aaron likes. It was on a road trip up north. And then we were both like, we're gonna figure out who's taking care of Aaron. You're like, I love to nurture and care for Erin, like, more than anything. And so does she.

Yeah, I was like, oh my God, look at these two. She's

like, are you the girlfriend or am I the girlfriend?

Yeah, that's how I kind of been the girlfriend for a long

time.

I was like, wait, who do I have sex with?

One will leave me very sore and the other What should I do? Well, let me also say like, dude, men are terrible.

Well, that's the thing.

We're terrible. We're both terrible in different ways.

But—

And I can own how we're terrible.

Terrible. And, and, but I don't think women are as much of a threat to men that men are a threat to women.

That's totally fair.

And, and I think that's what makes it really challenging. And, and I'll say like, after that happened to me last year, I got ruthless with dating. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Where first sign of a weird thing, you know, not in a, a rude way, but I just cut things off really quickly. Yeah. And in a way, I think I met this amazing guy that I'm dating now who truly feels like soulmate level. Even though it's only been 3 months, I'm like, we are— it's like what Aaron said, actually. He was like, Ruthie's a lot like Dax. I was like, oh, that's what I said about my boyfriend. I was like, oh, you remind me of my best friend, like female version.

Yeah.

And so I feel so lucky to be with a man who's amazing. And I think it was because I did And my sponsor did, like, I'm in program. Like, she was like, pray for him. And I was like, pray for him? Like, excuse me? And she, you know, so I have been working on my part and I think you are right. I think both things are right. I think it's hard when women are told, why aren't you finding a guy? Why aren't you getting married? But also all men are terrible. And then you're like, well, which one is it? Right? Well, and how do I, how do I do it? You know, it's hard.

But look, all men are terrible. Not for us. Right? Like, it doesn't bother us.

To say that.

Our terribleness doesn't bother us when we're together. Men aren't troubled by each other's terribleness, right? And equally, women are terrible. Your terribleness is not— you guys don't— you're not annoyed by your terribleness within your gender.

Sure. That's— yeah.

So we got to make it work. That's the other thing is like, I don't think anyone walks into it with an appropriate expectation of what this is. Like, we're pretty different.

Yeah.

And we're gonna try to make this thing work, and that's gonna be hard.

Yeah.

You know? Yeah. That's gonna be tricky.

Yeah.

But no, they're terrible. Like, we were watching this great comedy that's not out yet, this new Jake Johnson, Dakota Fanning— Oh, the best.

Wait, what?

It's so good. It's so good. You're gonna fucking love it. Wait. It's called The Sun Never Sets, and it's like an older guy dating a younger woman, and he already has kids, and he's saying, you know, just so you know, I'm not gonna have kids. He's always been upfront with her. I'm not gonna have kids. I'm not gonna get remarried.

Yeah.

And then he can tell she's really starting to want that, and she's got a friend who's pregnant, and he's like, look, I love you. I would do this forever, but I think you need to take the step and see if you can find the thing you want. Right? And, um, on the surface, I'm like, it's great, it tricks you. I'm like, yeah, this guy's being very generous. But he thinks— he's certain she's gonna go out there and see a bunch of bozos and come back and do the program he wanted to do forever.

Sure, sure.

So she goes out there, and then she does— she has these terrible dates. She wants to be with him. Then she bumps into her ex-boyfriend who's been out of town for 3 years, and now it's kind of fucked up. Now she starts hanging with him instead of sleeping him. over this. And then once, once Jake finds out that's happening, he's like, hold on, you wait, you were at your ex-boyfriend's? I want to have a baby with you more than ever. Let's get married, blah, blah, right? So he just completely flips because he can

give you— I can give you—

Yes, I'll give you everything. I'll go camping, I'll be outdoorsy, you know, all this, everything. And so then he flips, and then so he's a mess, and she's now into the boyfriend. So then he's forced to start dating. So then all of a sudden he's dating someone his age, and he likes her kind of a lot, and then she And he freaks out and flips. And it's just this— it's such an honest portrayal of how loss bias fucks us up so much. And what they keep showing both these men do, which is universal, is like, that's not my thing. I don't like going to art shows. Hanging out with your friends isn't my thing. And just men with their it's not my thing and their unwillingness to be slightly uncomfortable or try something new or do anything that they haven't figured out how to do.

Yes. It

has to be mad

until we lose them or about to lose them.

Or you get better for the next girl, right? Like, yeah, totally.

It's the way people do AA. It's the way I did it. It's like, what you're supposed to do is go to meetings, read this book, have a sponsee, blank, right? Or the steps. Like, hey, I'll admit I'm powerless. I'm not fucking with the God thing. I do 20% of it, and guess what? I'm fucked up for 3 months. I come back and I go, you know what, I'll do 40% of it. Works for 3 months, then I'm fucked up. And then eventually I go, okay, I'm gonna do all the fucking things because I don't want to die.

Totally, totally, totally.

But yeah, we're the worst, right? We're the worst.

I think men don't necessarily understand the depth of the heartbreak and the harm that love— again, love bombing, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, I mean, there are biological things, especially if you have sex. Like, if we have sex with you, then we're feeling— there's a hormone.

Yeah, but you're releasing oxytocin and I'm not. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

I think there's a physical thing we never Like, you're literally inside of me. Like, it's a different thing physically.

Yes, yes, I agree. You've invaded my body.

Yeah, like what you say with Aaron, if you have sex with Aaron versus Ruthie, like, it's different. And so I think that maybe for a lot of men, they don't understand why love bombing is so pernicious because they can't even maybe imagine how painful it is because they don't have all of this stuff.

But then there's also this fascinating data, right, that men— well, A, women break up with men more than men break up with women. That's an interesting thing. Yeah. Men tend to carry it longer than women do.

Carry the heartbreak

longer. The heartbreak longer. Okay. They tend to move on less well than women do, right? So it's like, this is why I'm saying it's like, stop the, you guys are terrible and we're this. It's like, no, it's a hard and messy, confusing thing. And our hardwiring is set up against us in a lot of ways. And everyone's got to transcend that.

And we have different bodies. I mean, I do think these things are real. The risk of pregnancy, the risk of, again, when we're falling for each other, when we're having sex, having sex. I think that's where like gender-neutral dating advice doesn't work because it is going to be different for the woman than it is for the man. And that's why I do tell women wait to have sex. I mean, that was one of the best advice I got.

And by the way, yes, you want to date a dude, that is the move. It is. And then you could go like, oh, so women can't be horny? No. Yeah, have a dude you fuck.

Get a vibrator.

Get a vibrator or have a fuck buddy, right? For sure. I think you and I talked about this before. I heard this psychologist saying, like, there's 3 categories. Yes. One-night stands. Yes. And then there's booty calls that last for, uh, months or years.

Right.

And then there's relationships.

Yeah.

And really the only damaging one is the middle. So yeah, fuck if you're horny. I think women should fuck if they're horny. Yeah. And then if they want— there's a guy they want to be with, then yes, I think— Yeah. Probably. Although look, Kristen and I fucked immediately.

I

get it. So also there's that.

Relatable.

Okay, how do you think— I think another thing that is really between the genders is I think women have a lot more fantasy around relationships, and I don't think men have much fantasy about relationships. Yeah. And I think that's one of the big issues on the table. Yeah. What do we think about that?

But here's why, right? Like, it's not just the marriage, it's you're getting pregnant. They're gonna— there's a guy that's gonna come inside of you, create a human being with you. Like, there it— we, we do have— I mean, I can speak to this on a physiological level. When I was 38, from 35 to 38, I was a, I was a hornbag. Yeah. Like, I just was— You wanted dick. I wanted dick. I wanted to be— but even the way I was having sex, it was like— Well,

it was

addicty, right? Well, for sure, for sure. And I was working through that. But I also think that there's a real physiological urge to reproduce for me anyways. Yeah. And, and again, if you're a woman, you are incentivized. And this is— if you go back in evolutionary, you need to find a man who will take care of you, who will take care of your baby, who will provide and who you can survive and who will give the best chance for your baby to survive.

You wouldn't be here if that's not how it had been done before we got here. Yeah, we're the product of that.

Yes, my mother choosing well and my dad being what all of those things—

Well, just look at the data of viewership of romantic comedies.

I mean,

it's like, you know, I don't know the numbers, but 90/10, right? Guys aren't even really— no, they're not fantasizing about About the meet cute and all that stuff.

Yes.

So that's a huge gap between us. Like, how do we bridge that gap?

I think it's, again, we have so much more at stake to risk, and it's just the investment is bigger.

It's the risk-reward of it all.

The risk-reward of it all. And so women are approaching dating in a very different way if they're smart.

But again, that might be vestigial. So totally, we have so many vestigial things that we're still dealing with, and they're not even material anymore, right? Like, yeah, like, do you really need a perfect provider and all this? No, but your body thinks so.

I guess the point I keep coming back to this of the risk of choosing the wrong partner if you're a guy is big, right? Like, it's— love is always high stakes. If you're a woman and you're choosing the wrong partner though, there's just a lot more that can happen and there's a lot of a greater— again, the investment is—

You could be stuck with the bill a lot more than a guy.

Exactly. Yeah. And that comes back to the advice you're giving, you know, your daughters around like, be careful. Don't— I don't know if guys have to be as careful. Yes, we both have our parts, but I think that we have to recognize that it, it is not an equal playing field. Like men and women coming onto the dating scene, there's just not going to ever be the— men will never know what it's like. And I think this conversation, like this is what you don't find on the internet to me. Yeah. Like the, the nuance of it all of yes, each person—

And the good faithness, right? The good faithness.

Like, I love you.

You are very, very smart. I assume you have the ability to give me a perspective I don't yet have.

And same.

And I imagine you're able to listen to my perspective without feeling attacked.

No, it's helped me a lot. Yeah.

I love talking to you. Me too. Because we do sometimes— look, we're similar, yet you're also a female and I'm a male. So I'm naturally a little protective of this group of dudes who's dying at mass rates.

For sure.

And I'm like—

And same. Yeah.

And then you're justifiably concerned about all these women who are being fucked with and abused. Yeah. Yeah. Aw. I love you, Liz. You're so fun and smart.

I love you guys. I thought we were just gonna fart around and we're just going—

We don't ever fart around.

That's why we

love you.

Love you more.

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