Transcript of Erin & Sara Foster

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepherd. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Hello.

Today we have Monica's parasocial best friends on.

That's right.

Erin and Sarah Foster.

Yes.

The Foster sisters.

Correct.

Erin, of course, is the creator of Nobody Wants This.

Which is— this is Nobody Wants This week.

Right.

So we had the cast on. And we hope you want it. Yes, and you do.

We had

the cast on Monday. And so today we have our experts on, Erin and Sarah.

Yes, and so Sarah is also a producer on the show. They also have an incredible clothing line called—

Favorite Daughter.

Favorite Daughter. They also have a podcast called The World's First Podcast. They're as entertaining as 2 siblings could possibly get. Obviously, Nobody Wants Us, out now on Netflix. I'm sure you've already seen it. If not, get with the program. Great 3rd season. Please enjoy Erin and Sarah Foster.

Hi!

Hello!

Should we grab Sarah? How are you?

Welcome. I decided to take the number one seat.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, smart, smart, smart.

I wanted for you. Yeah. We're gonna get into it.

We're gonna establish you as number 1 as favorite sister. Favorite daughter.

Favorite daughter.

Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. All queued up. Tell us about it. I think it's all equal.

Yeah, it's all mediocre.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, the clips on this show— none of it's flattering.

Looks really good.

That's very nice. Are we live or ABR? But we will cut. Oh, I— we don't.

What does ABR mean?

Always be recording.

You guys don't do video, right?

They do.

Oh, you do do videos? We do. I listen to you, Sarah.

We do, but just nobody watches them.

I do.

You're watching them? Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah. Let's just start there. 'Cause Monica has become recently very obsessed with you. Obsessed. And she's having a parasocial relationship with you too. And do you already know that? Have you been chewed up?

I know about you. She and I have taken it into IRL.

Oh my goodness.

But I just met Sarah for the first time yesterday, so we're still not there yet.

What do you think? Pretty stunning, right?

Yeah. Of course.

You're a creature.

They're both stunning.

Taller than you expected, prettier.

Yeah. What was your first impression? You are taller. I mean, I knew you were tall. about that.

Heard about your height.

I heard the rumor that you were tall.

Your height precedes you.

That's right. But tall people really in person—

They pop.

Get even taller.

You're taller than I expected as well. She's taller. Well, but I'm 5 feet tall.

You're not 5 feet tall. I have a tall presence, but I'm actually only 5'6.5, so I'm actually not really rocking that much height.

That must be above average though.

It is. It's above average.

I think nationally.

Above average.

Average nationally is like 5'3 or 5'4, right?

Yeah. So you're, you're quite a bit above that. And how tall are you, Sarah? I

don't know. Aaron has 2 lights. And I have one. So I need your audience to know, your viewers to know, she has 2 lights.

We're gonna let them know. We are letting them know.

But when we go into the DI, we're going to increase the exposure on you. Okay, great. This whole thing gets run through.

Well, and your loyalties to me, let's be clear.

Well—

No, no, no, your history runs real deep.

It's tricky. One of you employs my wife. Oh, well. So that's certainly complicated.

Wow, things are heating up quick.

This is gonna get—

Okay, it's gonna get nasty.

It's gonna get Sofia's choicey.

You guys should get into It's a house divided.

Well, first I wanna hear more about— okay, so when did you start listening to the world's first podcast? And did you tell them we almost did the exact same title? We were going to be the

world's last.

The 1 Millionth Podcast was gonna be the name of our— because you felt very

early,

but we already felt very late.

You already felt late at that point?

Oh yes. In 2018, you already had Chris Hardwick, you already had Maren, you already had Rogan. We felt late.

That's so—

when you started, I literally was like, what's a podcast and why is Dax Shepard doing a podcast?

Yeah, I thought you were sort of the first podcast. We were gonna do the 1 Millionth Podcast.

'Cause I was embarrassed about being so late. Yeah. And I think you had a similar embarrassment. Yeah. Right. So it's like you try to make the joke first.

Exactly. We wanted to do something in the vein of nobody wants this.

Yeah. Nobody asked for that.

Nobody asked for this and it already existed. And so this was like our 5th choice.

I kind of hate the name of our podcast.

I love it. I

know you do.

You don't like it.

It just doesn't feel like us.

I agree.

Yeah. Yeah. I kind of hate it. Could we change it?

Should we launch a rebrand now? A real-time rebrand?

We asked our audience about a rebrand 'cause we thought we would switch it to Fatigue Sisters Podcast. 'Cause

we're always tired

and people didn't want it.

People don't like change. No, I don't wanna throw that.

So, Imani, when did you, what was your first episode? What was the context? Why?

Well, obviously I knew about Aaron and Sarah.

Yeah.

Well, that's not obvious.

They're global brains.

From the zeitgeist.

Yeah.

Okay.

And also from the show. So I knew about you guys.

Oh, right. Of course. Of course. 'Cause of that. Okay.

No, but also from the zeitgeist, but I don't think I really knew about the podcast. And I was just listening to one of my own pop culture podcasts and I think I was just like served it.

Oh my goodness.

That's so good. It just appeared in my ears.

That's good for our marketing.

We need to pay for that.

Do you pay for that?

Yeah, I know. We need to pay for that.

I don't think we do.

No. Okay. And I just said to somebody, we gotta start paying for some views. And so, because you guys, we really, we

need to like get shadier.

No, guys, are you not aware?

Sarah's always calling our people being like, guys, get the bots, do the things. Yeah. Like buy stuff. Like do it.

I just heard, I won't say the name.

Okay.

But it is, A very popular podcast, way more popular than ours. I don't know if it's more popular than yours. Maybe not.

We're gonna need the name in a minute. Is it?

You didn't comment, but go ahead. Continue.

We'll, we'll cut that.

But is it? Well, no, she didn't comment, by

the way. I didn't.

No, but I wanna say, okay.

Okay.

Okay. I just, Monica offers to cut things really quickly.

Yeah, I did cut them really quick.

You're the mean.

You're the mean.

Kill quick. Yeah.

I don't want people to feel cut off.

But she's probably the reason we still have a show 9 years later. That is the thing.

I am the one that does the cutting, so I get to—

I would've been run outta town like 350 times by now. Thank God. Thank God.

Yeah. But you always yell at me when I do this.

Sarah always starts with someone and goes, by the way, by the way, we'll cut anything. And I was like, shut up, Sarah. Like, let her like say something she regrets. And then we get big views.

Erin's always looking for like the National Enquirer.

I, I think it puts in people's heads before you even start talking, oh, I might say something that I would regret. And so it makes, at least I think, people a little bit more aware of what they're saying.

That's interesting.

Interesting. I have the opposite point of view, which is like, if I tell you like anything you regret tomorrow talking about, it's gone. Now you're not talking with this self-governing. If you actually trust me or you trust Monica, 'Cause she said it. I hope that then you're not governed and then you drive home and the opposite happens, which is like, oh, I talked about that thing I normally wouldn't have talked about, but I think that went kind of well and I think people will receive it well. That's certainly more often the case for us.

Definitely. But also I never offer it unless someone's starting to, like, we don't normally say it unless someone's like, uh, like you can tell they're thinking about maybe saying something.

We're like, just say it. It's fine. We'll cut anything right now.

But go back to who, what you heard.

It's just, I heard somebody said to me, they go, you know that people only listen to an average of 4 minutes of each of her episodes.

Okay.

And I was like, so it's all clips and these clip farms. And so there's this whole world which I just recently learned about, which I didn't know. We're not over here like, how can we— which maybe we all should be.

Game the system.

Yeah. Where it's like these agencies, which I'm looking to employ, that will— that make it— Call me.

Goose it. Goose the numbers.

But make it look like millions of people are posting about your show when no one gives a shit about your show.

So I too am fascinated with it. Swear to God, we have never done anything remotely like it. I've been so tempted. We have a threshold. There's a point where it would cost us a lot of money to not do that, right? No, it's like not—

your clips go deep. Like, these clips, these video clips really create a lot of conversation from the show.

On this one?

Yeah.

That's lovely. It's organic. But I, of course, in moments of panic, are like, I don't know, is there a farm? And I'm shady, right? Yeah. But ultimately, I've never done anything, and I do think it's gonna come out. So without saying which podcast, I can tell you Dr. Mike. Do you guys know Dr. Mike?

No.

He's incredible. He's one of like the top 10 YouTubers. He's the most gorgeous doctor you've ever seen. He's in New York City. He won Sexiest Doctor a bunch of times. Who

gives out Sexiest Doctor awards?

It was one of those pop, like pop sugary type.

Very reputable source.

Anyways, he was telling me a certain show who supposedly has millions of things. He said, I want you to look at what the average comment ratio is for a show with a million downloads. Oh. And now I want you to look at this person's comment section. not one comment on any of these episodes that supposedly have millions of downloads. And I went, oh, that's fascinating. And I'm so glad I sat it all out, 'cause I do think at some point there'll be some exposés. Yeah. 'Cause I think some of 'em are a little suspicious.

That's what we'll hire. We'll hire a journalist to look into this.

Well, that's where we'll pay for it.

Yeah.

Well, we need a little more integrity around all of it, right? That's how I'm feeling about like all these facelifts. I'm like, it's not fair. Just tell us, because then you make all of us who haven't done it feel like crap.

Okay. But Sarah, just

tell us,

do you think this is because Not to get deep so quickly.

Okay.

But you are so gorgeous and you have been known for being so gorgeous your whole life that you're like, go on.

Tell me more. Keep going.

But really, and I understand that.

What specifically are they saying is gorgeous about you?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What is it? The eyes?

Is it— let me guess. It's my eyes.

No, but that you are a natural beauty and people are paying and are able to recreate some. And if I were you, I might be like, that is unfair.

If you have these natural things and other people can pay to just get them all of a sudden.

You're like, I was born with it.

Exactly. And like, you're born with other good things. So you have your good things and I have my good things and let's just like stay in our lanes. Is that possible?

Mm. I've never seen Monica this hard-hitting. I think it's the parasocial relationship. She's really going hard.

I don't know.

I mean, listen, I think— Sarah.

No, I think aging is an interesting thing. Yeah. You do kind of get to a point where you're looking at people who are older than you that are starting to look younger than you. You reach that point and you're like, what the fuck? Like, in order to like stay on this playing field, do I need to go now? Like get a facelift? I'm 45.

The clip farms. It's all the same thing. It's like, what's going on? Everyone's cheating the system.

Everyone's— which, by the way, I mean, people are looking good.

Of course.

But people are not aging, you guys.

Yeah, it is weird.

I think they're aging weird.

Well, some, some, some.

Well, I think a more fascinating current thing is how many men are now doing it.

Mm-hmm.

And how, how differently we feel about men's faces changing than we do about women's faces changing.

It's not okay.

Men should not be cutting their eyelids.

I don't like it.

Let me be clear. Men, if you cut your eye, you didn't cut your eyelids, right?

No, I haven't yet.

Okay, great.

Yeah. I might though.

Do not TBD. Men who cut their eyelids.

I just think men looking a little weathered is handsome. Yeah. And women looking a little weathered is less socially acceptable.

Yes.

I, I'll, I'll co-sign on that observation. Definitely.

Yeah. Okay. Back to my parasocial relationship. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry. So I got served.

And you liked what you saw?

I liked what I heard. I was like, oh, these girls are fun. They're funny. And then something clicked.

Yeah.

Turned into a new gear. And it was so embarrassing. It's so embarrassing. I can't believe I'm saying it.

Half of our fact checks are about you guys.

Fact checks?

This show has a fact check every episode, which is basically us doing what you guys do on your show. We just shoot the shit. And half of what Monica talks about is updates about you two that she's learned from the podcast the night before. And I'm like, this is lovely and I love them, but at some point our show has to be about our show.

Right. Can't always be about our show.

Monica, the first time you mentioned us,

I wish our numbers were like getting boosted from

this.

I mean, maybe they are. I would hope that they would. Sometimes I do have that power.

You do have a lot of power. 'Cause the first time you mentioned us, Montana, who runs our production company, who has been with us forever, she started as an assistant, was like, oh, she sent a group chat. She was like, you guys— Monica just mentioned you guys. Monica just mentioned you guys.

The all-powerful Monica.

Yeah. And it was like, it was a very big deal.

Big deal in the house. Yeah. It's very nice. It was a big deal. So we appreciate it.

And now you and I are friends.

Did the show— I was gonna ask this much later, but did the wild success of Nobody Wants This up your numbers at all?

Yeah.

Not really. I mean, I think maybe a little bit, but not maybe like what you would think it would do.

I don't know. I don't fully pay attention to the numbers as much as this one does, but—

Someone's got to.

It definitely changed our Favorite Daughter sales.

Oh, yeah. It did? Yeah.

Oh, wonderful. Which was an unexpected consequence. It was great. I mean, it changed everything.

If you had to pick which— I mean, I feel like I know the answer, but if you had to pick which one was a massive success, it would be Favorite Daughter. No.

Which company? Yeah. Between the podcast and the clothing.

Favorite Daughter is a massive—

the podcast is not really about—

The podcast is not that successful.

No. Well, I was just gonna say the podcast is sort of like—

it's just not. I don't know.

But relative to what? I mean, again, there's 10 million. There's like, there's 9,900,000 podcasts that would fucking cut off a toe to have your numbers. Guaranteed.

But I think the point is that for us, Favorite Daughter is a business. Like that is a business for us that we started as a business. The numbers are very important. The growth is very important. We have a financial partner. It is absolutely— It's the only thing we own. Profit focused. The podcast for us is a way for us to connect to people who will watch the show, who will buy the clothes, but really just, it's sort of like this quiet undercurrent underneath the businesses that we're working on. And it's not something we really look at as a big stream of income or a business that's supposed to be huge.

Yeah. I think it's like community building around the other brands you already have.

Exactly.

But it works because then people like you.

Yeah.

And so then they wanna support you. Yeah. And it's the only place to know us because Erin's basically not on social media. I'm not doing lives or we're not on YouTube. We post when we wanna post, we don't when we don't. It's a lot of like, buy this at Favorite Daughter, but we're not really, speaking to anybody in any channel of our lives except for the podcast.

I want more solos. I want 'em to all be solos.

I know everyone says that.

Oh, okay.

Solos is just when it's them together.

Yeah. That's what I listened to today. I listened to a couple solos. Yeah.

That's the part that's like very interesting.

People don't even want celebrities. It's interesting.

Well, cuz Sarah's really weird with them. Sarah's very, she's too nice to celebrities. She's too nice. She doesn't want, she sits there and praises them the whole time. She never wants to like—

I kiss their ass the whole time. I literally kiss their ass. I'm like their number one fan, even if I can't even name one thing they've ever been in.

The snooziest interview you've ever heard.

No, I'm literally like, what's your favorite? We had Kris Jenner on. This is someone we've known since we were children. Okay. And, and I'm like, Erin, just like be cool. And we know her very well. Yeah. I was trembling. I was like, Kris, like tell us, like, so amazing. What's your favorite color? You know, you guys. And then Erin goes, all right, so when you guys are flying private, who pays?

Okay, there you go.

There. And I literally, I was like, Erin,

you're being rude.

How dare you put her on the spot like that? Like, I was—

Sarah, this could be a clip. I was— let her answer. I was sweating.

That is so funny. Like you cannot.

Yeah.

When you guys meet people, who do they think is the older sister?

Sometimes they do think that I'm the older sister,

but it's also like rude to be like, you're older, right? Like, I think people don't really do that.

Okay.

No. But I mean, we're—

I mean, look, you're 18.

Yeah. 17 or 18 months difference.

Yeah. So who gives a fuck? It's not gonna be offensive one way or another.

I wear a lot of crop tops.

Keep it youthful.

She looks more immature. So I think people assume that I'm like the older, wiser sister.

Yeah. I was gonna say you have more of a serious vibe and that could read as older.

I'll do like a side pony and crop top, you know?

But I was delighted to learn today, cuz I think it could explain some similarities between you and I. You're a middle child. I think that's— Yeah, I'm a middle child.

You're a middle child?

I'm a middle child.

Out of 3?

Mm-hmm.

Boys or girls?

Older brother, younger sister, but a pretty big gap between both. You're 18 months and then what's—

Jordan is 3 years younger than me, so 5 years younger than Sarah.

Okay. Still pretty close.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm very, very middle child. I take on the task of wanting/forcing everyone to get along or be together.

The family sheriff.

Sarah screamed at me once and said, no one elected you sheriff, so get the fuck off your soapbox. Sheriff is a word that Dax likes to throw around a lot as well.

For both of us. Yeah. Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We got a lot of sheriff vibes here.

Too many sheriffs in the whole ecosystem over here. But okay, I'm gonna get deep with you now.

Okay.

I think that, that dynamic, which is clear and understandable, I feel like sometimes you're looking for Sarah to let you down. Monica. Sorry. And I also—

Monica, should we get into it?

Are you single?

And also, Sarah, you do fly first class. Okay. So I'm just gonna even out the playing field here.

Thank you.

But, and I mean it for your sake, I think you have an expectation that maybe she can't fill.

And instead of just being like, that's just her, she's not gonna do that. It like hurts you.

And then I try to like force her to do the thing that I wanted her to do.

And she might resent you for that. Where have you been all of our lives? I'm here, right here.

Same treatment to yourself is what my guess would be. You're pretty brutal on yourself.

Yes.

You can kind of only extend to other people as much as you're extending yourself in some way. So it's like, it might be an internal— Of course. Yeah. Yeah.

But interestingly, I had an experience, I don't know, a few months ago in Nashville where I tried to do it differently with Sarah. We had a work trip. We were opening our store in Nashville and Simon was gonna be there. We were bringing our daughter. Sarah was bringing her daughter. We had this like work thing on, I don't know what it was, like a Thursday. And I really wanted us to turn it into a weekend family trip where we go and we stay at a hotel on the weekend, spend the time there, bring all the kids, the cousins. Our dad was gonna be there with his son who's the same age as like our kids. So we were like gonna turn it into a cute thing. And I already was ready for Sarah to go, I'm not doing that. I just wanna go back home. I'm not doing it. 'Cause sometimes it's like Sarah controls the cards because she is the no.

Right.

And then it like stops everything.

She has a veto.

She has the veto. And before I had a child, which is still kind of recent, 2 years, she had all the control 'cause she had the kids. Oh,

sure. Yeah.

I had like nothing to bring to the table. So then I really wanted to like hold tightly. But I called Sarah. I said, I found this really cute hotel. And I was like, felt myself like getting all like stressed about her saying no. And I really want us to do this thing. And I already— there's cottages and I looked them up and I think that you're gonna like them. I'm holding just 2 rooms. And she was like, I don't know, Erin. I don't know if I wanna do that. Like, I don't know. The place doesn't look that good. Like, I— she started doing her thing. Yeah. And Simon had a little bit warned me of like, just let her do what she's gonna do. We can still have a nice time.

Yes.

So I said, okay, Sarah, you know what? No pressure. You have the link, whatever you wanna do, that's what you're gonna do. And I went ahead and I booked it for ourselves. The other family members wanted to do it. I was sad thinking about her daughter Josie not being able to be part of it, which is a big part of my wanting to control it. But I just was like, I'm letting it go. And guess what this bitch did? She booked that place.

Yeah.

She got the hotel. She stayed all weekend.

She showed up with this—

Well, I didn't get the cottage. That was very expensive. I stayed in the main hotel, which actually ended up being great. I was like, I was like, but I'm gonna have my space.

Sure. You're gonna do it the way you wanna do it.

I'm gonna do it the way that I wanna do it.

I had a little conversation with my husband where he was like, do you see how when you didn't put the pressure on, she wanted to do it? 'Cause she didn't feel that like—

The tight grip.

Being controlled.

And ready to disappoint me.

Yeah.

It's too stressful.

Yeah.

That's a really good observation that you have probably from listening to the podcast, becoming closer with Erin, and just understanding humans and sibling dynamics and women and whatever. I do think this has been a constant theme for us that we have dealt with, which is it's normal when you're as close with each other as, as her and I are. Of course, for Erin, she wants me to handle every situation the exact way that she would. Right. This is human nature, the way with our parents or our other sister or a work situation. Of course, she's like, you need to handle it the way I'm gonna handle it. And I'm like, bitch, we're 2 different people. We grew up in the same house, but we had totally different childhoods.

Right, right.

I have my own wounds. You have your own wounds. I have my own attachment style. You have your own attachment style. We're different. Like, and now that we've accepted that, I would say our relationship is in a much better place.

Yeah.

She likes to shit on it more. Like we did a podcast recently and she was like, we have a very toxic relationship. Are you okay? Well,

Sarah has a much higher threshold for like toxic energy.

Sure. That's also probably a difference.

Well, I can just move on quickly. I have a lot of, I don't wanna say patience is not the word cuz I don't have a lot of patience, but I do have grace for people. Everyone in my life operates in a way that I never would.

Okay, now is where I come in. This would explain your tolerance for addicts.

Well, one addict. Only one? Did I date more than one? No, just the one. When we met, I was dating an addict. Yeah.

So now let's talk about our— well, first of all, I want to applaud both of you because you guys just took that observation so well. Because we like— you don't know them, right? Like, yeah, I think that's what gets tricky.

Well, Andrew and I are best friends.

You guys are best friends, but Because other people are in parasocial relationships with us as well. I will sometimes read comments that I'm like, oh, that's none of your business to say about. Right. I can get a little defensive if you think you understand something about our dynamic that we don't. I don't always take that well. I thought that was really impressive the way you guys— I knew that.

We're like in our growth era too. Like, Aaron and I are not who we were even 5 years ago. We have done the hard work. I started therapy not until I was 40.

Wow.

So like, I was late to the party.

Is that parallel a divorce? Is that what drove you to therapy?

No. It was before— no, it was during COVID And Erin looked at me and I think I had had some outburst or something. And she looked at me, we were in Lake Tahoe, and she goes, it's time.

Yeah. I was like, I'm begging you, I'll drive you.

She goes, it's really time. And I was like, oh my God.

Sarah, what do your outbursts look like? Will you have a proper tantrum?

I'm a rage.

You'll scream and swear?

I mean, I'm a rage at it.

Erin's not a good tween.

Okay. I want to start with 4 and 5, mom and dad get divorced.

Yeah.

Oh my God, you really did your homework.

Yeah.

That's my job. Yeah.

He gets paid a lot of money.

August 23rd, '82. February 5th, '81.

Do you have a year?

It is a great memory.

So 4 and 5, mom and dad get divorced. Where were you living when the divorce happened?

Malibu.

And do you have a lot of memories of that period?

I don't remember what I did yesterday, but I do have a memory. I remember the doorway. Like, I remember a few things. Like, I remember the house, like parts of the house. But then you also question, is it a memory or is it something our mom told us? Our mom used to say to us, like, I remember your dad saying I'm leaving. And I remember me saying to your dad, oh, when are you coming back?

Oh, right, right.

And him being like, no, I'm not. Like, she thought he was just like, I'm leaving, I'm going to dinner, I'm going here. And that is how it— so I can't remember if I saw that or if it's just she told me. And I've never done like MDMA, but I've thought about it.

Yeah, you should. Yeah. Um, did you guys stay in the house or did you guys move to another house? No. 'Cause that would be memorable.

We moved to Calabasas. He was in another relationship. There's nothing good about this divorce. Yeah. You know, it was very bad for everyone.

Because I read something about you guys today. You've both said it, and I am guilty of having thought it. So, like, I know you guys are the daughters of David Foster. Yeah, I know he has won 19 Grammys and had 45 nominations, and fucking— I'm assuming he has the same amount of money, right? Also, I love your dad. I've actually hung out with him, and he's a fucking— yeah, at a birthday party.

He really loves you guys.

When I met you, Sarah. Sarah, sorry. Thank you.

For the listener.

For the listener. When I met Sarah, I already knew your dad was David Foster, or I knew that about you. And so, yeah, my assumption was like, oh yeah, this girl has probably $40 million in a trust fund. And that has been a kind of common thought about you guys, yeah?

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, even like yesterday, I saw some thing about the show coming out and it was like, easy when your dad buys it for you. Oh my God.

Like, that's how it works.

That's how the world works.

First of all, and we've talked about it so much about like, about privilege and nepo babies and all this. And, but it is interesting how with us, our dad is really like a behind-the-scenes person. Our dad is not a superstar. He is not, he's a legend.

You gotta know music a bit to— Yeah.

You gotta know music a bit to know who he is. But there are so many kids of really famous people and who have done like far less interesting things, I think, that don't get it the same way that we get it. You know what I mean? It's interesting.

Well, you guys are both blonde and beautiful. No one's getting in line to feel bad for you. Yeah. We don't.

Yeah.

Yeah. You're fucking out. You gotta pay the tax.

No, but it's not even about feeling bad. It's more like for some reason, and maybe it's some, one of those things where we are more hyperfocused on it than other people are because we're very comfortable with it today. But sometimes we'll look at celebrity children who haven't really had a big career of their own, but people will write articles about them and refer to them by their name as opposed to the daughter of where we get daughter of a lot.

Yeah. Yeah.

And we feel like at some point, haven't we sort of paid the price? And like, we have our own careers now where we could just be listed as ourselves. I was nominated for a Writers Guild Award, went to the Writers Guild Awards, and like the caption of my photo said David Foster's daughter. Yeah, that's insane.

Can you imagine?

No.

Didn't I like get here kind of on my own at this point?

There's like influencers who post pictures of like their buttholes and they're like daughters of someone, but they don't refer to them as the daughter of whoever. Yeah. I'm like, all you do is post your butthole. I think part of it is because— not to age anyone.

But if you were going to.

There was an era of, like, Paris Hilton and Kim, I guess, like, other people who were sons and daughters of— that had these careers in reality TV and were, like, known as that.

And I think for some reason, you guys just kind of like—

Some of them were even your stepsisters, right? I mean, some of them were actually—

Because that's when you guys were also alive.

Anecdotally, this was my experience. I didn't know who Brody Jenner was. I saw there was a reality TV show. I only stopped and watched because he had a really sweet Chevelle, and I like cars, right? And I'm like, how's this young fucking kid have this $200,000 Chevelle? So, yeah, that kid is that. And I'm like, yeah, it's what I think it is. Yeah.

Yeah.

It's not crazy to put you in that net, even though it wasn't true.

I think it was our obsession with not being thought of like that. So, like, when Brody and Brandon did a reality show with our dad, which was— we were like, wanted nothing to do with it. We were so like, we wanna be taken seriously. We never wanna be on reality TV. We this. But it almost like if we had just leaned in—

Well, it's like you're paying the bill anyways. Yeah. So you might as well have. Yeah.

So true.

So what was the childhood in Calabasas like? It was comfortable, I assume. I

mean, listen, comfortable financially, always. We were never struggling financially or anything. I think that it was more just a really fractured family dynamic. You know, we have a really good relationship with our parents today. We're really close with everybody. No one, meant to fuck things up as badly as it went. And I think that everyone has really tried to repair, which is so important, especially our dad. He's really like, we have the best— we really wanna repair this relationship. Yeah. Yeah.

He's such a good person.

It just took so long for us to get there because, you know, he was in a relationship with someone that we didn't have a relationship with. Yeah. And like, it was never gonna be repaired while they were together. Around 23, they broke up and we had an opportunity to repair things with our dad.

Well, also, if I was spared the, The sight of my father raising other kids when he wasn't raising my brother and I, that would've— I mean, I already was so judgmental of him, but if you would've added that log onto the fire, I would've fucking torched him.

Well, we went on Kate Hudson and Ollie Hudson's podcast years ago, and we talked about what it's like sort of watching your parent raise other kids. Yeah. And live a very different life than we're living. So we lived one life with our mom, which was like a very normal life. We were in like a normal house, but then our dad, is this Grammy-nominated producer. He has a mansion in Malibu.

You're taking trips to Aspen and shit with him, maybe. Yes.

And we talked about that on the podcast, and the reaction was like, oh, boo-hoo.

Oh, really?

These girls complaining.

There's a fact of life in America, and you just have to accept it, which is if you have money, compassion's off the table.

But take the money out of it.

And by the way, I'm fucking guilty of it. There are many people that— the thing I always say is, like, if Jeff Bezos falls down a flight of stairs and he breaks his leg and I'm watching, I'll be like, yeah, but when he stands up, eventually he's gonna have $200 billion. Like, I do.

Not anymore.

Some people, like, of course you just ratchet up whoever's above you.

And I think it comes from a misconception.

Yes. It really is. We were raised to think money will solve all problems. It really is, you guys. And it's not your fault.

So what you do is, let's take the money out of it. These are blue-collar families.

2 little girls that would love to grow up with their dad.

Any little girl who watches peripherally their other parent raising other kids, it's gonna hurt. And that really did shape a lot of the way that we operate in life and a lot of the relationships that we now have as adults and all of those things. It did shape how we attach to other people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But also, you guys then have a level of forgiveness that I would say a lot of people probably don't if you've been able to repair all these relationships. Yeah. So that's amazing.

Yeah. I was learning about this rad zone that you and your dad were both single and cynical. Yeah. And you're like, oh yeah. Like you were a team for a while. Like obviously what a rad season of a relationship to have.

Well, there was a point where, Our dad really wanted to repair things with us. And he asked, what percent am I at? And what can I do to get to 100%? Yeah. And I just remember being like, we can just be at 100%. I really would love to just be in a happy relationship with my parent, you know, where we're getting along. I said, honestly, my only trigger is just please don't minimize it. Like it wasn't that bad. You know, blah, blah. Like if you could just, if we could all own how bad it was, then let's all just move forward together. That's all I really need and want. And he's great about that. He's really worked on himself as well. Like, his relationship with us is very important to him.

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We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking if your alarm is actually set before you go to bed— you could have sworn you set it, even remembered looking at your phone, but apparently looking at it and pressing the button are 2 different things because now you're waking up to sunlight and panic. Yeah, checking first always makes sense. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. There was a moment— forgive me to the listeners, they've heard about this— but my dad was dying of cancer and I had so much resentment against him for having left and so much judgment of how he lived and everything. I couldn't have been more judgmental of this man. He's dying of cancer. And so I'm at home all the time taking him to treatment. One time when I'm home, I go, hey, I want to drive around and take a picture of every house I lived in. I'm not planning on this being anything important.

I just want to go have a photo of every house I ever lived in. So we're kind of driving through all these different places I've lived, and I only lived in one place with him, or 2 maybe. And so we get to these apartments, these welfare apartments my mom and my brother and I moved into when they got divorced. And we're about to pull out of the parking lot place. I took a picture. He just out of nowhere goes, oh, fuck, man. Oh. That intersection right there. I remember your mom asked me to drop off a couch so you guys would have a couch. And I was driving through this intersection, that one right there. And I realized I was driving away from my life and everything I loved. And I started crying so bad, I had to pull the truck over. And I sat right there for like a half hour. I couldn't see. And I literally, at— I must have been 37 then. 38. I did not know he gave a fuck ever before that moment. I thought he drove away and never fucking cared. It was like party time. And just getting to hear that, like, oh, that heals so much that it broke your heart to leave us.

I just needed to hear that. Right. To your point, Aaron, I don't need you to fix everything. I just need acknowledgment that that was really painful.

That was so sweet, Dad.

It is so sweet.

But you don't think that when you're the kid that was left. You just think, oh, they're out having a great time. There's new girlfriends.

hardest stuff.

By the way, totally different income bracket, same shit.

When you look at your parents as like— who is it that says like, look at your parents like they're 5 years old, you know? And it makes you go like, shit.

Yeah.

It's so crazy because I've never had this experience ever until 2 days ago. And it's almost the same experience that you had. We went to our friend's wedding in Hawaii last week, and I talked to my dad and he's like, how was it being away from Noah? And my husband and I just hadn't left her— she's 2 years old— together for 4 days before. And we were kind of like, everyone's bragging about how fun it is to be away from their kids. Like, we had a really hard time.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And we didn't really like it. And I kind of expected my dad to be like, oh please, it's good for her. Get over it. And he goes, he told me a story I'd never heard before. He goes, you know, it's so crazy. When your mom and I got married, they got married after we were already born. And he said, you guys were little and we never did a honeymoon. And then Kenny Loggins gave us their house in Santa Barbara. to go for the weekend, and it was like our belated honeymoon, and we were so excited to go. And we finally got there, and we left after one night because we missed you guys too much. And I said, wait, oh my God, like, just Mom did, or you?

Right, right, right, right, right.

Because all the stories that they ever tell, it's like, he has to work, she's sad to leave us, he has to work. And I'd never heard him say— he goes, no, it was really hard for us. Like, we both wanted to go home to you. And I swear to you, it like healed this little part of my heart where I was I didn't know you felt that way about me.

You just need to know. Oh, Mom, do you need the tissues? Yeah. You just need to know they care about you.

It made me so happy he missed me as a 1-year-old. I know.

Yeah. But you know what? I think when we were young, it was too hard for him. I mean, look, we all have real intimacy issues. We had a dad who couldn't go there.

In his defense, he's Canadian. I think that's what it was.

That is true. I mean, look, people leave marriages. all the time. You know, it happens. It's like, and sometimes it really is for the best, but the way that it happened for him to go there with us would've just been too painful for him.

Yeah. He was with someone who wanted war.

Yeah.

And like, if that person wants war, like, you're gonna get a war.

And you like to fight? Yeah. A little bit.

I like to fight.

Yeah. Do you? Yeah.

Well, not as much anymore in my life.

I don't get that vibe.

I, I really am in a different place in my life today than I used to be. I used to be really ready to fight. Now I get scared to get in fights. the juice going, you know? Because it doesn't really ever make me feel good at the end.

I was gonna say, I think the realization you have as you get older and you're a fighter is, oh, I lose every fight I have, even if I win. It's like I would have these fucking showdowns at intersections with dudes, and maybe I'd even get in a fight. And then for, like, the next 5 hours, like, just the adrenaline dump and the cortisol, like, what I'm doing to my body to get all crazy like that. I'm just like, I'm gonna die really early winning these fights.

But did you fight, or did you just hold grudges? 'Cause to me those are different things.

I think I was ready to stand up for myself at any point growing up in LA. There's such a hierarchy with every room you walk into, right? Like you are immediately put into the category of how important you are, how attractive you are, how old you are, how useful you are to speak to, to not speak to. If someone's looking over your shoulder.

Do you think that's just LA?

I think it's definitely heightened.

It's way more. I think it's harder to detect status elsewhere. Here, I think there's a lot of indicators that help in that. Like, I met you and I'm so fish out of water from that scene. Like, I meet you through Kate. I mean, truly.

No, Kate met you through me.

All right.

I knew you way before that. Are we talking about that?

Sure.

Let's—

I met you when you met Ashton. I met Ashton the day he came to town.

100%. That's true.

Yeah. Like when you and Kate— are we— do we talk about that?

Yeah, of course.

Oh, when you and Kate started dating, you and I fully We already knew each other. So yeah, yeah.

But what I'm saying is I walk into that situation and it's like, as someone from Detroit, it's like, oh yeah, her dad's famous. Her parents were famous. They went to school. Like there's a whole network.

It's like 90210 in your head.

Yes. In my mind, it's like, oh, all these people are—

Which is not accurate, but that's—

Talking about status being on display. Like I walked in and I'm like, oh yeah. And it's ding, clink, clink, clink, clink. Like it's just very fucking palpable.

Was it intimidating? Or you didn't like it?

That's a great question.

He loved it. He wanted their approval.

Well, I loved it. It's like all these— Yeah, all these girls were like you. Beautiful girls. Yeah. And I'm much different, I think, than all the other folks that are coming around. Maybe I'm wrong. I'm liking that I'm a fish out of water.

I don't know. I mean, I think like all of us, we have a perception of ourselves that's always so different than someone else. And I was not nearly as close to Kate at that time that Sarah was. But I feel like the general feeling around her dating you was like, oh, she's dating someone who's like cool and normal and a guy's guy and like funny and like not treating her with kid gloves the same way that maybe somebody else would. That's what I remember. There wasn't like a feeling of, wow, she picked up trailer trash along the way.

Right, right, right, right, right.

Like, it wasn't like, who let this guy— who's gonna pay for dinner? Wait, wait, wait. That wasn't what I felt.

Hold on. When I met you, you were You were fresh off the boat. When you started dating Kate, you were already famous.

Correct. Yes. When we met with Ashton, I had been 9 years trying to get—

You weren't even on Punk'd yet.

No, I was like— well, I was on Punk'd because I met Ashton through Punk'd. I didn't know Ashton, but I—

Okay, then Punk'd hadn't come out yet. When I met you, no one knew you.

Exactly. And I was in this unbelievable honeymoon where I was like, I had been here for 9 years in a 1-bedroom apartment in Santa Monica. Yeah.

And you did love a trucker hat. You were always in a trucker hat.

I had no money, Sarah. That was the weirdest thing, is to be famous and be broke. Like, I would be at a bar and people knew me. I was like, I couldn't buy a fucking drink. But at any rate,

I just wanna put a bow around, which I'm sure we'll go back to it, but just with our dad, we healed with our dad in a real way, like 25 years ago. So we've had like a really good relationship with him for a long time.

For more time than you've gone.

Yes. This isn't like a new thing where the family's healed. Yeah. Like we really did heal such a long time ago. So I always just wanna like, you know.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Say that.

Yeah. Sometimes it comes across more negative than ever intended cuz that's what people will grab onto.

Yeah.

Yeah,

I'm ready to make one observation now.

Okay.

Just based on the things I've heard, not having the same parasocial relationship, but I think the people you're answering to in your head, like, you're spending a little too much time answering to people that certainly exist. Those people are gonna hate you and they wanna hate you and it has nothing to do with you. I think this all the time. It's like something will come out and everyone's against me and it's generally related to Kristen. I have to remind myself like, no, no, that group of people already hated my guts. Yeah. And now they had something, which is great. And then the people that love me, they love me. And that same thing they like. There are people dedicated to hating you.

Oh no. A lot of people hate us.

It's not related to anything material. There's nothing actually to think about.

Yeah. No one actually fucking knows us. But

it's also, they don't hate you. They just wanna hate. Yeah. It's like they just wanna hate anything. And so if you're there, I don't really feel like we get that

much hate personally. Really? Yeah. No, I don't.

I don't think you do.

I don't really think we're like the top of the list of hated people. I

agree. I think probably when you were younger, there was maybe probably more of it. But to your earlier point, it's like everyone's done a lot of stuff. When I look at your guys' history together, the main thing I will say about you guys, which is obvious on paper, you guys are fucking hustlers. You're such hustlers, dude. You guys have done every fucking thing that could have been done by the two of you. You're gangsters. That's that.

Thanks. Nice.

Yeah. It's important to remember these things. Like, there's no getting those people back. There's no doing the right thing. There's no phrasing something perfectly for them. These certain people fucking hate your guts, and they're going to— no matter if you save a school bus full of people, they'll go, of course she could. Her dad said, yeah, that's that.

We always say that we could win, like, the Nobel Peace Prize for coming up with the cure for Alzheimer's. They'd be like, David Foster's daughter.

With all the money they just live in.

With all that money.

I do think though, Dax, you are onto something a little bit.

Yeah. Yeah.

With you, Sarah, because like even on the podcast, you are often like, I think the audience thinks this is boring. You're always thinking about the rules of approval.

I'm very, yeah. Yeah.

And I'm like, who? No, first of all, no one thinks this is boring. Yeah. And then you calling it out actually is like, is it? No, it's not. Like it kind of like makes you feel like, am I bored? Like, why am I listening to this?

Am I too easily entertained?

Oh my God. But this is the same reason why, like, I don't have parties for myself. If I have had a party for myself, I hide in the bathroom because all I can think about is I have inconvenienced people to be here for me. It's all connected.

Yeah. But I'm guessing some of that comes from, again, now I have a stereotype and it's probably really, really incomplete and wrong, but I do think you guys grew up probably in a pretty competitive environment.

But not with each other.

Well, I don't think that about each other.

No, we've never been competitive with each other.

But the thing you already talked about, which is like, it is a town where it's like everyone kind of knows what everyone's parents do and how relevant everyone is.

No, your audience will throw up. My best friend's parents were Kurt Russell and Goldie Hawn. I thought my dad was a loser.

Right, right. Like, all my— Like, Plissken versus a musician.

Like, at Erin's school, she went to the Malibu Public School, so she was like the queen bee. I went to Crossroads where everyone's parent was like an A-list—

Yeah. Academy Award winner. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So I was like, oh, which is fucking crazy.

It's crazy. Yeah. Drop you at any other high school and you're like, you're strutting around.

Yeah.

How did Erin, you end up at the public school and Sarah end up at Crossroads?

She was academically thriving as a kid, and she was very on a path that was very, like, straight and clear. And she did well in school and she did well with, like, friends. And I, like, couldn't get through the 3rd grade or the 4th grade or the 5th. It was, like, all very challenging for me. So I kept, like, moving around different schools to see what would fit.

She went to Switzerland.

Which one had a low enough— yes, that's— that, that was a question I had. Yeah.

How'd

you end up in Switzerland in a boarding

I was, like, a really unhappy teenager. I really didn't feel like I was growing up in the right place. I was like, I don't belong here. Like, I don't want to be in Malibu. I don't want to go to the beach every weekend. I don't want to talk about the things you guys are talking about. I wanted to be, like, emo. I wanted to, like, listen to, like, Tori Amos and put black eyeliner on. Madeline Murchison. I wanted to be like—

You wanted to declare you're not valid.

Really? The whole time?

Yes. And I wanted to grab onto something a little bit darker bit meatier, and I couldn't get it. It was tricky being in a family that was super visible when I was going to public school, because— which I was mostly in only public school except for boarding school. I was maybe in 6th grade.

You were in public school except for one year of your education.

Yeah. So it was such a shining light on where I was coming from, and there was a lot of negative attention for a lifestyle that I didn't have as much access to as maybe they thought I did, because I didn't live in the house that they were talking about.

Yeah, right.

They'd go to school and talk about like, oh, the raging party at the Fosters. Erin's like, I wasn't there. I wasn't invited because I don't live there.

Yes.

I just wanted to escape it, and I was just not happy. I just didn't really like myself. It wasn't working for me. And so I just sort of thought, what's like the farthest place I could think of to go? And I found this place in Switzerland.

You applied by yourself?

Yeah, I applied by myself. I went to, like, Colum McEwan. You don't know that? Sorry, you grew up— okay, so Colum McEwan's like a summer school to help you graduate because you, like, can't get through school, right? And then I went to a school in Santa Monica that's essentially meant to, like, pay your way through the rest of high school because you, like, can't pass the grade. So I couldn't figure it out.

Do you think you had a learning disability?

I, like, really wanted to.

Yeah, sure, sure. You want some explanation.

I would have loved for that to be the excuse.

Yeah, yeah.

But unfortunately, when I went to Switzerland, I got straight A's.

Oh, wow. At like an— this was an elite boarding school. Whoa.

Yeah. It was a hard school.

Yeah.

What were your classmates like? Were there oligarch kids there? Were there like, what was the vibe? Oh, it was a good time. Yeah.

There were a ton of American kids whose dads typically worked at an oil company and they pay for the family to move to Saudi Arabia and then they pay for the kids to go to boarding school. They weren't super rich kids, a little bit blue-collar families who then had moved to the Middle East and that company pays for them to go. And then there was a ton of Kazakhstani kids. They spoke Russian and they looked Asian and they had a lot of money. And they would take limos from class to class.

No, no, no, no.

Yeah. So I certainly wasn't like the rich kid there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did anyone even—

No, because I was from LA and like a Hollywood family and they thought that was interesting.

You were Sarah at this school. Yeah, exactly.

I became Sarah overnight.

Except she had like an iPhone. eyebrow ring and like black hair. So I'm not really Sarah.

It was my first exposure to a community where the hottest person wasn't the most popular person. The person who was the most interesting was the most popular.

Oh, that's so great.

The person who spoke other languages and had traveled and had aspirations.

Substitutions.

Yes. And Malibu really, it served me none of that. It just gave me the flattest view of the world. I was so not stimulated by it and not appreciated. I went to this school and I felt I like met myself for the first time and it was cool. And then it was cool to do well in school.

Yeah.

Because people cared about their future and I wanted to care about my future.

How many years did you go there?

This is the part where I'm not proud. I only went for the one year. Okay.

That's okay.

Because I got my heart broken.

Oh, by a boy there.

By a boy.

Kazakhstakian?

I wish. He was from Chattanooga, Tennessee.

Oh, they'll get you.

Yeah.

Those are rough ones.

Yeah. Took my virginity and broke my heart. Oh shit. So I had to swear off the whole country.

Great place to lose your virginity though in the Alps.

It was like an attack. It was great.

Were you here to help?

I was probably an asshole.

I eat my globules.

But it still did the thing I needed it to do. Yeah. It was like, open my mind up to, I can be this different person and my life could be bigger. And so I think it definitely set me on a better self-esteem journey for sure.

Yeah. Ultimately, you guys both out of high school start acting.

Yeah.

What informs that decision? Different reasons or? I mean, to me it would seem like just a no-brainer. Everyone probably you're friends with is also doing it.

For me, it was kind of the low-hanging fruit, like, available to you.

No, but you were, like, doing classes and you were—

I mean, I was trying for sure, but I definitely felt like it was an easy next step.

Again, it'd be me going to work for the automotive industry, which I did. That's what you do in Detroit. Yeah. You both had, by any other measure, if you moved here, like, tons of success. No. Yes. You were in a million TV shows. You were the fucking— I remember you being the star

Yeah, you had a much bigger acting career.

Yeah, but like, I did not— even in high school, when Kate is like starring in movies, I just genuinely thought that was so cool. There was no part of me, I swear to God, where I was like, oh, I want to be famous, I want to be an actress. I didn't get that until later.

She's like, I felt that much later.

Yeah, no, but I did. But during high school, I didn't feel it.

What did you think you were going to do? And why aren't either of you musical? Or are you?

Good question.

I mean, Erin's husband lies to her and tells her she has a good voice.

She does not.

I mean, no, it's good, it's good, but it's not like It's not like a professional singing voice. It's serviceable. Yeah. Like she's good at karaoke.

It just, it just skipped us.

Okay. None of you play piano or you— none of that was happening. Okay.

But also maybe were you like, I don't wanna do that?

Well, I had this experience when I was in 5th grade, I took piano lessons and we always had heard stories about our dad playing piano when he was like 4 years old. He's playing like, you know, Beethoven. So I was like taking lessons. I felt like this is not really clicking for me, but maybe there's like something that's gonna come through me. You know, my hands are just gonna like touch the keys and it's gonna like—

That's what I would've thought. It's gotta happen. Me too. You just have to open up your chakra enough to let the energy pass through. Yeah. You don't need any practice. You need like a spiritual awakening.

Like, you know, when like the pianos play themselves.

Yes.

You know, I sort of did believe that that might happen. And then I had one recital and my dad came and I played and I didn't really mess up. So I was like, he's gonna be pretty impressed. And then afterwards he came up and he was like, you don't have it. You can quit. Oh. And I was like, oh, okay. It was a really freeing moment. And I really genuinely appreciate this about him because what he said was, This is not your thing. This is my thing. And you do not have to do this to get my attention.

Let me liberate you from this.

Yes. And he brought this up, I think that day, unless I'm making this up, but he used to tell us this story. Our grandma would tell us this story about how our dad broke his hand and they were like, you cannot play piano for 6 weeks. 'Cause he broke his hand playing baseball and he would like sneak out of his room and he couldn't stop playing piano. Exactly. And the hairline fracture was growing up his arm and the cast is getting higher up and it's like all the way to his shoulder. This feels like a story. Is this real? And he has to keep playing.

It feels like a grandma.

Yeah.

But he said to me, like, do the thing you would do through a broken hand. That's not this.

That's a great lesson.

Go do that thing. And the truth is, I wanted to go be in like a play at school. And so I didn't ever feel pressure. None of us did.

That we had to be something for him or anything, actually. I put way more pressure on my kids already. It's at 14, I'm like, who are you going to be? What are you going to be? What do you like? What are we going to— our parents didn't even take us like to our college They were kind of just like, figure it out. It's weird.

I dig that. Yeah. Back to Crawfordville. What were you going to do? Did you, you didn't know?

Honestly, I, I was in a super toxic relationship.

Uh-huh.

And I just couldn't even fathom going to college. I was like, I can't go to college because then this person will cheat on me. So how, like, this is, this is like, I, what do you mean? Like, it was the most toxic freaking situation ever. But there was this little issue where our parents were very clear. Like, you don't go to college. Good luck.

Yeah, you're on your own.

It's not like you're gonna have a credit card to go live this life and have—

I think that's fair.

Whatever. So I literally was like, well, I guess people have always told me I could model. Maybe I could try that. And that's what I started doing. And I went to Paris.

Oh, great.

I went to Paris for a month.

And then I thought— And your mom Rebecca was a model, right?

Our mom was never a model. They say this on the internet.

Yeah, that's what I read.

Thank you.

I think a little bit. She could have been. She did her 20s in New York or something. She was a flight attendant for American Airlines.

That was a hot gig.

I know. That's like where the models really were.

Yeah. Kristen and I went to— maybe she has told you this story. This is the wildest story. And I need to be incredibly clear on the fact that this was before the person had decreed Sharia law in Brunei. So let's— this is pre-Sharia law.

Okay.

I got invited to the Sultan of Brunei's children's birthday party because there was 2 boys and they were a fan of one of my movies. And Kristen and I were dating for maybe 6 months. I get this email. It's the weirdest invitation ever. I say to her, I've been invited to the Sultan of Brunei's children's birthday party in England. Airfare and all the stuff. I said, I feel like there's no way we can miss it. This is so bizarre. We have to go see this, right? And she's like, yeah, okay. I didn't know where Brunei was. I hear sultan, I think Middle East. Sure. Brunei's an island next to the Philippines. So the kids arrive, there's 5 of them and all these adopted children. We come to find out their mom, these group of 5 kids was the flight attendant when he flew to London. They fell in love on this flight from Brunei to London. They landed and they went to the Dorsetshire Hotel and stayed there. He then married her, and on their anniversary, he bought her the Dorsetshire Hotel.

That's so sweet.

Wait, it's kind of sweet, right?

But anyways, yes, he fell in love with the flight attendant on the plane. I

hope you still have that contact because I during Wimbledon, and it is very pricey. And I was not gonna stay there.

Well, the whole trip, mind you, again, these kids were so fucking cute. There was 2 girls, 3 boys. They all got to invite whoever they wanted. That was so funny just to witness what they all— we were at the kids' table from, like, Without a Paddle or something.

Oh, with, like, Big Bird?

Yeah, I was Big Bird.

Oh, wow.

I was the Big Bird.

It's like the Richard Pryor movie. The Toy.

I love that movie.

The Toy. Yes, I was the toy.

You were the toy.

And I loved it. It was great. There was archery and hot air balloon rides. It was spectacular. We had so much fun. And then we went And we fell in love with these kids, and they said, you've got to come to Brunei for my father's birthday. It's the whole month of August. The whole country celebrates. You guys have got to come to that. And we're like, based on this trip we just took, we're in. Like, we'll go to Brunei in August for this party. And then, like, we got home, and then 2 months later, he decreed Sharia law, and they start boycotting the Beverly Hills Hotel, which he also owns.

I remember that.

Oh, yeah.

And we were like, fuck, we can't go to this party now.

No, yeah, you can't go at that point.

That was funny.

The weirdest thing.

Hollywood is so funny.

It is. One day you think you're going to Brunei to a king's birthday, and the next day you gotta protest it.

Oh, God.

Okay, so the modeling led to the acting for you, Sarah.

Yeah, this wasn't like some burning desire in me. I wasn't trying to be a thespian. Like, I wasn't that good. I didn't work that hard. I really just fucked it all up. I had so many amazing opportunities, and I just didn't—

No, the world was like begging to make her a star, and she like wouldn't show up to the auditions.

Really? She'd write half in.

So you were kind of self-sabotaging?

Self-sabotaging, but also just like an entitlement that was so unattractive. Like, honestly, like, I look back and I'm like, how unattractive.

But don't you think maybe deep down it was because you were afraid of getting rejected?

Of course.

That you weren't going to be good at it.

Of course. I mean, listen, I did it, you know, it was the modeling, and then I was hosting a show on MTV. You know, it was this thing that you did in the late '90s, early 2000s, right?

It just kept progressing other rungs of the ladder.

And I took it for granted, and I didn't treat it with the respect it deserved to be treated. And life doesn't work like that. Life doesn't allow that for too long. Like, you eventually get kicked back around the same block.

You're right. There's a moment it can work.

Yeah.

And even when people get bent out of shape about nepotism, I'll always say, like, it is true you'll get a shot more than another person will. Yeah, sure. But it's a meritocracy. They will not keep hiring you. Like, you'll get an unfair shot. But then beyond that, there's really no—

Erin's next script could be really fucking bad. I mean, it wouldn't be, but if it was really bad—

That'll be the end of the line.

That's not what I meant. I meant like she could write her next script, and if it's bad, no one's gonna be like, but let's make it because her dad has a bunch of Grammys.

Yeah, or even that she's had an incredible hit under her belt. Nothing matters. In this

business, work does have to speak for itself at some point.

If I can argue another thing against the nepo argument is simply this, like, our children will have an advantage. 2 daughters. They certainly will get an agent easier than I got an agent.

Yeah,

but that's not even the nepotism benefit. I'm on a walk with Delta when she's 5 years old in this neighborhood. Exactly. She makes a joke. I laugh. Like, 20 seconds later, she makes the second joke, the same joke a second time. I don't laugh. And she, at 5 years old, goes, I went to the well too many times, didn't I?

No.

And I go, yeah, you went to the well too many times. Like, my 5-year-old already knows about comedy and about going to the well. the well too much. And it's like, sure, that's the advantage they're gonna have when they arrive. They'll have this knowledge that is real.

But also, when you know you're not going to be homeless—

Yes, that's real.

The safety net is real. Like, when you go to bed every night knowing, like, I'm gonna be fed, I'm gonna have a roof over my head— Yes. There is a sense of freedom with that.

Is enviable.

Yes. And if you don't have that, it leads to angst and stress.

Then you smoke crack in your one-bedroom apartment. Yeah. Santa Monica.

Yeah.

Also, though, also the benefit is that you saw it work out for people. That's a huge benefit that, like, you grew up in a house— It's a reality. Where your dad is a legend. Just the fact that that happened tells you something.

So, you're around a lot of successful people who are self-made, and they are good at what they do, and they teach you things, and they inform the conversation in the room. And you are exposed to, like, a level of entertainment people and interesting conversations that heighten your ability to be in these rooms.

You're educated. You get educated.

You're not a fish outta water. It is a huge advantage if you have a general with a studio network executive. I was much more relaxed in that room than somebody else might have been. And that helps you. It is an advantage.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But all that being said, Hollywood said no to me. All my connections, all my connections.

And

with

that,

I had networking connections. I knew everybody when I was— everyone, every executive, every head of studio, every movie star. I knew everybody. And Hollywood said no to me.

Your classmates are now running Warner Brothers, for crying out loud.

Yeah.

Jesse. Jesse. So lovely.

My best friend's dad was Ron Meyer, ran Universal.

Sure, sure.

He never was like, let me put you inside. This was my best friend's dad who I was with every weekend, and he did not put me in a film. Do you know what I'm saying?

Right, right.

The illusion is not actually what it is, right?

Well, you're a businesswoman and you're supposed to be— No, no.

whole time.

Well, that was kind of my question. I was gonna ask how each of you decide, okay, we're leaving that pursuit. Because again, Erin, I know you're shitting on it, but you're on a ton of fucking TV shows.

No, she was.

I mean, not— I mean, she was dead in one episode. Yeah, I was dead in a lot of them.

She was like— and I would have killed you.

Oh, she's on 9-1-1. I was dead hooker.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, great.

I was a corpse.

CSI, I was like a crackhead in like a, you know, halfway home.

But that's a hard role.

No, she didn't Oh, okay.

So you were just stumbling around. No, I did. I did. I had lines.

I had lines. Listen, you had more TV credits than Monica had or I had at that age.

Well, thank you. Well, I definitely felt like I wasn't living up to my full potential.

Yes. So that's what I'm curious about. When is the moment that you go like, okay, we're on the wrong path?

It was gradual. And then I started feeling this— I had, like, a writing bug as a kid, but it was, like, bad poetry.

Eyebrow rang. Goth. Bad poetry.

Yes, exactly. It all lines up.

We already knew. Yeah,

it lines up perfectly. And then— And then I wasn't feeling like I was doing great in my 20s with my acting stuff. And then I started a blog when blogs were relevant. I don't know what this is, 2010, 2008. I don't know what it is.

You didn't have to name it the world's first blog. Yeah. You were early enough.

I didn't have to. I was early. I was like right in the zone.

Yeah. Yeah.

And it was called totallyconfidentandcompletelyinsecure.com. Oh, okay. And it was just anything random, nothing. Sometimes I'd write random scenes that were in my head. Sometimes I would write about like a weird date that I had been on and it unlocked something in my life. Things went viral at the time. It didn't go viral, but it would get sent around, and someone would mention it to me, and I'd be like, wait a second. Oh, you thought that was funny, or you thought that was interesting. And it really opened my brain up to this idea that that was really much more my thing. And then my girlfriend, Sophia Rossi, started HelloGiggles, and I started writing on HelloGiggles.

This is Monica's saying, and I love it, which is like, love who loves you back. Love the thing that loves you back.

Acting wasn't loving me back.

Right.

I wasn't loving it. I didn't have a process. I was like, I'm faking this a lot.

You can feel when you're pushing up against

something. Yes, it wasn't. And then the writing was like really flowing for me. It just felt really me.

You always talk about red lights and green lights.

Yes, I was all red lights with acting, and then writing was all green lights. Matthew McConaughey. It just made sense.

Red lights, green lights.

Oh yeah,

that's his book, right?

That's his book.

So I stole that.

You guys are using it.

No, or you invented it and you stole it.

Wait, she's been saying it for years. Okay, you might have a lawsuit.

You know what, Matthew?

I bet I can guess what year she started using it. 'Cause the book has been out for years.

Wait, you guys, does Matthew listen to the pod? Did he say that? Is that where he got that? Oh my God.

Is Matthew McConaughey a world's first podcaster?

To be clear, I'm saying I probably stole it from him.

Aaron Paul.

No, but I'm saying he probably stole it from you.

I am too. I'm doubling down.

Foster Sisters. I was just listening to your show.

Oh God.

I opened the door for you. What's red? What is it? Red lights and green. That's really good. Thank you.

Wow.

Dax. That's really good. Mr. Dax.

Okay. So then I basically, I'm writing for HelloGiggles. I'm writing for Daily Candy. Does anyone remember that?

Oh yeah. Daily Candy. Yes. You're also working at Free People. Yeah. Which I'm sure the audience audience would love to whatever, but she was working at a clothing store called Free People at 27 years old where like her friends would come in, her peers would come in and be like, get me a size 4, bitch.

Yeah,

we did have a different point of view on these things. Like Sarah was never gonna stoop to working at Free People.

No, but I did JCPenney catalogs where I modeled bras. Honestly, they were hot. They were in black and white. They were for the newspaper.

So yes, that gave me the writing bug, and I wasn't making any money at it because you don't on like the internet stuff.

But you get a staff writing position on, uh, Ryan Murphy Show.

Yes. Well, so what happened was Sophia introduced me to Ollie Obst, who was at 3 Arts, which was like pinnacle of like where you want to be as a comedy writer. And he wanted to represent me, which was huge. And I'd never written a script before. And so he said, you need to write a script and I'll teach you how. Wow. And we came up with this idea. I was dating a girl at the time. This is like this random one year of my life where I was a lesbian.

A DJ.

And she was a DJ.

Very popular. We have had her brother on the show.

Friend of the pod, just wanna say.

Friend of the pod. So I wrote this script called Lesi.

You're a big converter. I'm really— now I see the pattern.

What's my conver— oh yeah.

Hey, you're like a conver— you're someone that'll just like, yeah, here we go. Just down. You need me to try out? Yeah, I'll convert.

I think you're someone that tries out a lot of things.

Yeah, yeah. It's a good quality.

And I get it, maybe. I wish I was more like that. It's good, yeah.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

Anyway, I write this script, first script I ever wrote. Ollie, I have to give him so much credit because he really taught me. Like, I'd send him 10 pages and he'd be like, girl, that's not a joke. You put it in the description, you put in the lines and the dialogue, and show me where an act break was. I didn't know any of it. That script really changed things for me because I ended up having all 3 big agencies offer me to be with them, and I was How did this happen? This is crazy. And I'd never experienced this in my acting life, ever. I'd never felt like I got the big call. You know? Like, no one ever was like, I see something in you. And this was the first time I ever had that experience.

Beyond that, your reaction to these meetings is going to be so different than even if you'd gotten those calls as an actor.

Oh, 100%.

Like, the feeling you have going there is a different thing entirely.

Oh, yeah, 'cause I wasn't faking it. Like, this was really me. No one can do this for me. I can't phone it in. It was the most— vulnerable and the most honest and the most myself. And it really shifted even who I was out in the world and how I interacted with people because I was being more myself. Got a staff writing job.

That's a big job. That's what a writer in Hollywood's dying to get.

And Ryan loved her.

I couldn't believe when I would drive on the lot, I was just like, this is it. It was on the Paramount lot.

Yeah, it's a good lot. She'd like call me every day driving on. She'd be like, this is crazy. Yeah. I just couldn't believe that I have a fob.

It is. Yes, it feels so

good. I wanted my friends to see my little ID card in my car. Like, sorry, I just have to go to work tomorrow. That's my thing. It's a big-ass deal. I was really proud of myself. I mean, I was very low on the staff, but it was very cool.

And when did you guys do Barely Famous? Was that after or before?

After. After that writer's room, I took out a pilot to try to develop and I couldn't sell it. And then at the time, my managers at 3 Arts said, it's so funny, we have all these clients who are trying to get reality shows and we keep getting calls from networks seeing if you guys will do a reality show, but you won't do it. We kind of all looked at each other and we're like, there's something here. There's something funny about 2 girls who are surrounded by reality TV and they refuse to do it. So they film a reality show about how they won't do a reality show. Like, let's write a scripted show.

Very Spinal Tap.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sort of like a Curb-style show. And that's how Barely Famous came together. And it was certainly my way in as a comedy writer trying to, like, wedge myself this thing in. And it really shifted a lot for us. But it was hard also because we ended up selling it to VH1 that really did only have reality TV. They didn't have comedies, really. And so it was hard for us to maintain the kind of show we were trying to create.

It was ahead of its time.

It was.

It was very funny.

It was really fun.

When do you guys start Favorite Daughter?

Barely Famous got canceled in, like, 2017, something? 2016? Which was devastating.

Of course.

Right? Because all of a sudden, people were like, started taking us seriously as like comedic actresses, right? Like all of a sudden it was this taste of what it could be.

Yeah.

You know, which we'd never really experienced. Like I was literally a failed actress. She was writing all those things.

A retired actress. Yeah.

Yeah. And then all of a sudden we would walk into rooms and we were like doing The Hollywood Reporter and on covers of things. We're like, holy shit, this is what it feels like for people to respect you.

There's also another level of pride when you've created it. Exactly. You're not just like, you've been cast. The showrunner's a genius. You're a lucky recipient. Like, it's a very prideful—

No, like, Bob Iger came up to us at an event, was like, I love the show. And I was like, I will die. Yeah. And it's the drug. It's like, you're like, I need this. Like, pump this through my veins. It feels so good. And then you start attaching your self-worth to that.

Oh God, yeah.

And then it gets bad. And I was like, I had a really hard time. I was like, you guys, I'm, I'm gonna die. No, I was like, what do I have now? I was like Like, because now you don't want to go audition for things because now you're like, no, no, I'm only in things that we create and write and cast ourselves. And you can't just go do that. It was like lightning in a bottle, really, that we had sort of cracked the code in the show. And so I was like depressed. I mean, not actually, but I was really— it was really— She

kind of just couldn't accept it.

Yeah, I just kept wanting to— are you sure?

Did I— Take it somewhere else?

Yeah, yeah, no, no, no, like, can we Like, for sure. Like, who do I know? Like, no, girl. Yeah, it's canceled. Nobody wants it.

Nobody wants it.

No, we shopped it to everybody. Nobody. But it was so frustrating because everywhere we'd go, people would be like, that show is genius. I'm like, but like, I just couldn't—

You were confused.

Understand.

Yeah. You're like, what's up, tiger?

Have you heard? Yeah. Between what I was hearing, but then it was like really low rating. Anyways.

Sarah likes using Delta as well. Oh, I love Delta.

Delta Air Lines.

The Delta machine.

Oh, he loves it.

She sometimes criticizes me. Yeah, no, I love it. Criticize. I criticize her for it.

And she criticized it. Oh, when I—

because I'm like, okay, girl, I'm like, oh, you went to business school?

Way to explain what I'm trying to say.

Yeah. When she gets a new word, she just says it nonstop.

I feel like she heard someone on a panel say it and now she's using it all the time. And I'm like, okay, new word alert.

Terra firma is another one I cut.

That's the one I'm currently—

you're saying it's—

what is a terra firma?

On solid ground.

Well, yeah, on solid ground. No, no. The one that you hate that I'm using is prima facie.

That one too. It's just— I don't know what that is.

Prima facie.

On face value. It's like a legal term. Like, on prima facie. face value, like what should be obvious.

And this one's extra hard cuz I was there when he first heard it.

Oh, that's really nice.

Which one?

Prima facie.

No, I've known prima facie for 20 years.

No, Stephen Dubner said it and then you started saying it a lot.

Well, it might've infected me, but yes. But I did, I did learn prima facie in college.

I mean, it's a beautiful word if you can put it in sentence. It's kind of an array.

I think it's a terrible word. Don't you? Like Delta's so chic. When I say Delta, I honestly—

It's his daughter's name.

No, I know, but people like respect me more. There's just something else about it.

If you trial prima facie, Primafacia.

It's—

Or terra firma.

Wait, I'm gonna go with primafacia, and people are gonna be like, what? Like, it sounds like fast.

They're gonna think you're talking about your face.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sounds like a procedure.

I can't wait to hear about that.

Listen, we interview a lot of experts. I need to get the shorthand with it.

Do you guys ever do solos, just the two of you, or are you only guests?

Well, every episode has an hour-long fact check, which is just us shooting the shit.

Yeah.

Fact checking the episode.

I mean, I've obviously listened to the podcast, but every—

Well, this is what's clear is I have a crazy parasocial relationship with— when I met Erin, I did feel like there was a huge imbalance.

Oh, sure.

She's like, oh, what do you guys do?

No, that's not true. We fangirled when you talked about us.

I said, you don't even know about the fact check.

That's okay. That's okay.

No, but you guys are major. Like, honestly, we didn't even think we could get on this podcast. I was like, wait, really?

Well, we couldn't for a couple years. It took us a little while.

Yeah. I was like, wait, really?

Did 3—

I was like, did someone cancel? How are we getting on?

True. Season 3, by the way, is so good.

I was like, Dax remembers, like, I knew him before he was famous, right? Like, make sure he knows.

So let's do 5 minutes on that. I think we should, right?

I wanna know first impressions.

Okay, fine. You start.

I mean, my first impression is, is you're so fucking beautiful. It's insane.

Well, we never hooked up. We never—

We didn't.

No. And I never hooked up with any of your friends.

You didn't hook up as much as you should have.

I hooked up with nobody.

A million percent.

You guys, I hooked up with fucking nobody.

No, it was pathetic, honestly.

Yeah. Nobody. And then when you were in relationships, they were very long, right?

Yeah. Yeah. My roster of like the people I passed down were epic.

What? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wanna just, Like, I would love to play a game. Like, I know somehow I bet you've turned down Leonardo DiCaprio.

No, he dated.

Oh my God. That's so long ago. And Benicio. I feel like I would hook up with Benicio.

Oh yeah. Benicio's the best.

She has some good ones.

That's what I'm saying.

Yeah. Now I'm feeling like—

Benicio was like on family vacations with us. It was very funny.

Oh my God.

He's a gem of a human.

He's great. He's amazing.

Oh, I have only the best things to say about anybody. He's fantastic that I ever dated. But no, I just didn't have fun in life.

Would you agree? You would know best. Yeah. I think he He looks like Brad Pitt.

What do you mean? He's the Puerto Rican Brad Pitt.

They look identical.

No, they're Latinos.

Yes. And they're Latinos.

No, no, guys, guys, guys. People have said this before.

People know it.

They already know this.

They already knew it.

That was how he was pitched to me. They were like, he's the Puerto Rican Brad Pitt. Yeah.

You do have a great story on your pod about George Clooney. I'll let, I'll let people go find that too.

You know what? I actually feel bad about that.

You do?

Yeah, I do. Because I forget that when we're talking that anyone listens.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's easy to do.

I really do. So I talk shit. I kind of embellish.

That's why I like it.

Storyteller.

Yeah. The way you listened to it on the podcast was different than the headlines. The headlines really were shitty because—

They always are.

Yeah, they always are. And this is why I hate talking about celebrities on our podcast, because of course if Joe Schmo talks about George Clooney, they're gonna print something, right? So whatever. So I had just talked about, we had mutual friends who thought that we would be a nice couple, beautiful pair. But at that time I was like 22 and he was like 40, and it, it just felt— but the way that they printed it was that I was saying he was this old man and that he was this lecherous—

I think you did say like ew or something.

No, you said he was boring or something, which that's not what I

meant. The guy's George Clooney.

Now you're talking about him again on here. This is even—

I brought it up. No, but also there won't be— there's nothing new to be said. There's nothing, there's nothing to say.

But I give it a second go.

The point is you had your options.

Like, you had a lot of options. To be clear, he was not asking to be set up with me. When he met me, he was kind of like, uh, he was not interested either.

So back to my impression. I thought you were outrageously beautiful, and then I thought you were suspiciously friendly for being so beautiful.

We always had a very nice relationship, you and I.

Yes. My memory is a little different of yours. Mine is like, I knew this guy you dated, and I didn't like that guy.

Oh yeah, no, I get that.

Yeah, I never liked the guy. I knew him from AA, and I'm like, I don't, I don't like this guy. That's your ex-boyfriend. And, um, that was crazy. And I'm meeting you, and I'm kind of just like, how How are you with that guy a time of day?

And I wasted like 5 years of my life, but we, you know,

we'll pull you into that cycle, right?

These are my wounds. I don't move on easily. So I get into relationships, I get my heart broken, and then it's like I waste years upset over it. Like I'm not a mover-on-er. It takes me a very long time to move on because even when I'm not in the relationship, I'm like mourning the relationship.

Because Sarah's someone who's like paralyzed in the moment. Yeah. ever do the things she needs to do in the relationship. No, never. So she won't tell the person how she feels in any relationship, whether it be romantic or not. She has a very hard time actually doing the things she needs to do in real time. So then when it's over, she lives in so much regret. Yeah. That she's always like replaying it over and over in her head.

Could have done this, could have done that.

Yeah. But also professionally, I had an agent who like wouldn't return my calls. He was my agent and I wouldn't fire him. Yeah. Like the guy like wouldn't even call me back, but I still didn't have the balls to be like, this relationship is over. I'm moving on. I'm gonna go look for someone who actually It was a theme with every relationship. I've always been so in awe of girls, of young women. I love it. Who get their heart broken and then rebound. I love it. I think it's so amazing. All these young girls where they're like so upset, they give themselves a week and then they're like, oh, I'm gonna go out with so-and-so. I'm like, I'm obsessed with you.

Right.

It is shocking. But it's great.

Well, it's like an audition. It didn't go well. You gotta fucking get up for the next one. Yeah.

I just, I don't know. I'm missing the DNA. I'm missing the atoms.

Probably pick people who you feel like like I'm gonna be in a long-term— like maybe you're slow to connect. I'm slow to connect. But then when you do, it's very deep.

Totally.

So then of course it's gonna be hard.

It takes me time. I need friendship first. I've never just like met someone and fallen in love. Yeah.

I was hearing an episode I was listening to of yours today where you were saying like, never been on a first date.

Never. I've never been on a first date.

But you've been— you were on a bunch of dates. Yeah.

Like 100. So many.

Then I was rekindled introduced to you when I was dating Kate, and I was around you a lot there for that period.

Yeah. But like the dynamic shifted, I feel like.

I don't know. Okay. Tell me more.

No, no, no. I just sort of like remember me being a kid Like, oh my God, this is great. We're friends. You're dating. And you were, I think, a little bit, not standoffish, but you and I don't think had the same dynamic.

Really?

That's my memory. You weren't like a dick or anything.

Oh, good. 'Cause I just had lovely feelings about you. No, no, no, no. And I thought this is the funnest person that's always around.

No, I only have the best feelings towards you too.

'Cause a lot of you get stuck with your girlfriend's friends and they could be a big miss. And sometimes they are.

But I remember being really excited that you guys were dating.

Yeah, it was a very fun little spell.

And you guys got serious.

God, yeah.

And you guys were like always in beanies. Yeah.

Making out fucking all day long. Moved

on from the trucker hat to the beanie.

Yeah. But I remember feeling kind of like territorial over you. Like, I remember this.

Oh, good. This is fun.

And I remember being like, Kate, this is crazy. It's like my best friend. Yeah. And I remember like you and her were kind of like, what? Like, you don't know him that well. Yeah. Like literally. And then I felt stupid, actually.

Oh my goodness, I didn't even know any of this happened.

'Cause it wasn't like that deep, but like, I do remember feeling like stupid. I remember being like, oh, wait a minute.

No, I actually think I remember you being a bit of a lifeline. Like, I felt a bit out of place in that world, and I already knew you, and that was very comforting.

Yeah, and were you like always with Bradley Cooper or something? I don't have a memory of that.

I would bring him around a bunch. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We came to the Halloween party. He was Magnum P.I.

But were you still dating her at this time?

That was right when we broke up, yeah. Yeah, we had— yeah, broke up right before that party.

But were you friends with Kate before you guys dated then?

I was friends with Oliver. That's even how I— what happened was I was friends with Oliver. I fucking adore Oliver. I was at his house one night playing poker, and she came and played, and she was still with Chris. I gave her 111% of any charm I have, right?

Dax was obsessed with Kate as, like, a young—

I just thought she was so fucking beautiful, and I loved Almost Famous, and I was like, oh my God, I can't believe she's here. And I just gave her everything I had. she got.

And she received it.

She did! I remember leaving going like, well, that's as good of a job as one can do. I mean, she's married, who cares? But that was a great first showing. I just had a crush on her, and then they separated. Then I got invited to have— you know Steve Brill?

Of course.

Yeah, so Brill invited me to dinner in Malibu, and I went, and she was there. And she's now single, and I'm like, let's see if we can fucking muster up this magic and get it going again. And then I got it going again. And then from that night on, we were just together every single day.

But I'm confused on the timing. timeline because when I met you, it was at Kate's house. You remember meeting me? At a party. I remember it very clearly. Oh, I know you don't remember, but that's okay because you were with your girlfriend.

Oh yeah. Who were you? Yeah.

Bri. Who?

Bri.

Bri. And you, well, I dunno if you want me to say this part, but go ahead. You guys were basically educating me on an open relationship.

Oh yeah. We talk about, I've talked about this all the time. So, and I interviewed Bri on the show. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah.

So I had like a long conver— I was 19 or something and I was like very like,

what the fuck are these

two doing? Oh, I was just, out of my depth at those parties cuz I was the little sister and I hadn't really found my place yet. And so we had a long conversation sitting on a couch where you guys were basically just telling me like, monogamy isn't a real thing. And like, it doesn't, it's not, it doesn't make any sense. And this is the thing that works. And I had a million questions of like, what about getting jealous? So what about this? And you guys were really selling me on it. And I was kind of like, so is this what I have to do to like be in a happy relationship?

We almost put you on a trajectory.

She became a lesbian. I mean, Immediately after. So Dax is very meaningful to you in your life.

Wow. Okay. I'm embarrassed to admit I don't remember that. No, I'm really embarrassed to admit that.

Okay. And then when you and Kate broke up, you and I like lost contact.

We did. We started— well, I live on the East Side. You lived on the—

No, I know. But like, I feel like I went like a long period of time.

Till nobody wants this.

Till—

that's literally your best friend.

I know.

And I remember when Kristen got cast and everything. I remember I remember saying to Erin, I'm very close with Dax. Yeah. She got territorial again. I was like, no, I was like—

All over again.

I was like, hold on, I'm so flattered. I'll make a call.

I think even something like when we met or something, Sarah was like, did he mention that we were like literally friends? And I'm like, no.

Yeah. And I remember being like, I'm confused. This is—

She wasn't getting like the respect she wanted.

I definitely told Kristen. I'm like, oh, this is so exciting. I know Sarah. I'm telling you the truth. I've had to admit that I didn't remember that conversation. I will be honest.

You said to me yesterday too, when we met, you're like, you know, I like know Dad. So I was like, I know, I know, I do know that.

I couldn't be more flattered that you're doing that. That makes me very happy. I mean, I don't know that we really have to talk about the show. We'll have the full cast on the same week, right?

The cast came on already. Yeah, yeah, we had them together.

Yeah, Monday we had all of them. The 4 of them. 4 of them.

Like, is everyone talking over each other?

Well, that was scary, but it was great.

All 4 of them together.

Yeah.

Wow. And Adam sat there. We had to put a chair there.

It was great.

One thing I want to know is, I can tell you, I've been with Kristin 19 years. I've seen her have lots of different successes. You can't get bigger than Frozen. The Good Place was enormous. When that show came out, we were in New York, and it probably had been out for maybe 3 or 4 weeks. And we went to go see a show somewhere, and it was untenable. Just walking to the theater, being at the theater, being in line. Oh my God, I thought I knew what level—

She couldn't get more famous in your head.

Yeah. I said to her, I'm like, I'm gonna start meeting you places. Like, I can't live like this. We can't talk to 100% of the people we see on the street in New York City.

That's crazy.

So I just know even from our perspective, where we've already had a good dose of it, it was crazy. And I want to know what it— what did that feel like for you guys to have your first TV show and for it just to be like a cultural phenomenon? It was so wild. How were you digesting that?

It was crazy. But also, you know, I had had a lot of failed shows I'd written. So it wasn't like, I want to write a show and then that show's a hit.

You probably had modest expectations.

Barely Famous was our first show we ever got on the air, and it was on the wrong network, and nobody saw it at the time. And I don't know if you would say it's a failure or not, but it certainly wasn't like a hit.

Seriously shopping around. around. She thinks she may have found a home for it on a streamer.

I mean, Netflix should put it on.

But then between that year, 2016, and then when the show came out, 2024, that's a long time of me writing shows that aren't making it on the air. So making pilots, filming pilots, no one's seeing them.

We became the creative directors of Bumble in between all this. Like, we took a job at a tech company. Like, a lot happened.

Yeah, 3 years is—

In between the window.

Yeah. So this interesting thing as a writer that you can actually have a really good living never getting anything on the air. You can write things people buy You sell a show.

The goal keeps inching up a little bit, even though nothing's getting made.

I was kind of comfortable with the idea that I was even in the game at all. That still felt like a really big win to me, 'cause I still felt like the person that psyched to have the card to get on the Paramount lot. So, anytime I made something and it didn't get picked up, unlike Sarah, who has a hard time with things ending, I have radical acceptance at all times. I'm like, keep it moving. And that really is the life of a writer, at least in TV or in film. You're making something, you're spending a year of your life on it, you're writing it, you're adjusting it, you're making changes, and then one day they say, no thanks, it is dead. They own it now, and it is dead. And they don't want it. So they can't— that's it. So I don't think about it again.

Imagine all the good material getting dust on shelves that nobody will ever see.

Oh, my gosh.

And so with this show, it was like the 9th pitch, and everyone had said no. And so I, again, was very much like, okay, great. Let's just let this thing die already. Like, everyone's saying no. I've spent a really long time trying to write this pilot. It was a really hard one for me to write because it was really personal.

And according to the New York Times or LA Times, whatever, article I read, you were at a point too where you're like, I don't think I can write anymore.

Yeah. It had not happened for so long. And I was getting married, and I was 37, and I wanted to be a mom. And I'm like, what am I chasing? You know, what is this thing I'm doing? Like, I don't think I want this to be my story, trying to make something happen that's not gonna happen. I'd rather pivot to something that is loving me back. And writing was always I weirdly always had open doors. Like, people always wanted me to give them something, which felt like a big win.

Everyone loved your voice.

I had options, but they weren't getting to the next step.

You couldn't get past the finish line.

I couldn't get past the finish line. And I was getting a lot of the same feedback, which was like, we love your writing, we love the dialogue, it doesn't feel big. It's like not enough is happening. So am I supposed to write a cop show? I just didn't really know. know how to still be me and get it over the finish line. And that was not something I wanted to be in the battle of for my whole life. So I was now in a very content place in my life, in my personal life. Everything had calmed down, and I was really happy, and I didn't feel that need anymore to chase it.

We had a fashion brand.

Sam just jumps in with all the random shit. Well,

I'm trying to like—

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got the chronology.

The audience should know these things. You had also also found love. Now you have like a business for the first time in your life.

Yeah. Favorite Daughter was like a really fun distraction.

Sorry, that's a pretty important part of the fucking story. Is that okay?

Perhaps the most important.

Yeah. Thank you.

No, Favorite Daughter was a very, very fun distraction cuz it was also doing well. It was in a lot of ways low stakes cuz that wasn't my dream. If it failed—

It wasn't your identity.

Yes. That was not my identity. So it was a really fun thing to really put my energy into. But then my manager Ollie again called me one day and he And he was like, hey, can I get a discount code for that Bolin branch I heard on the podcast? And I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, Foster15. And he was like, wow, you really— this is gonna sound mean. He goes, you really took the loser path in life, huh? I go, what? He's like, I'm just kidding. But, you know, it's like, you're a writer, you don't write. And you're just, like, selling sheets. And I wanted to die.

Yeah. Wow.

I was like, wait, what do you mean? I am writing. I still— I have that thing. He's like, you're not writing. You're not doing it. You know, And it lit a fire in me. First of all, I was so mad at him.

Yeah.

And so hurt and so embarrassed. And I remember telling Simon that he had just said that. So I was like, what did he just fucking say to you? He can't say that to me. But I knew that it hit a nerve for a reason. And I was just really avoiding writing this pilot because I was so scared of the consequences in my relationship. I had only ever written as a single person where I don't have to answer to anyone in terms of what I'm sharing. And I was marrying into this immigrant family who are hyper secretive about everything. And I'm about to sort of make a— not make fun of them, but like make light.

Make entertainment out of them, normally.

And I was really scared that I'm going to fuck up the first great healthy relationship I've ever been in to chase something.

By voiding it for this other dream. was supposed to have been at peace with letting go. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was in real conflict. And so I wanted to tank it.

No, no, like actually tank it. She's like, we're not pitching. You did not want to pitch Netflix.

Did you talk to Simon about it? Did he put you at ease?

Yeah, he was kind of like, I agree with you, this is risky.

She was happy when everyone was passing, like Amazon, Apple, NBC. She was thrilled.

She was like, it's a headache you don't have to have.

Because then it's like, I wanted to do it, but they won't say yes. And then one day Simon was like, I think you should call my dad and tell him that you're making this show. Or not making it yet, but, like, that you wrote this thing, and just see what he says. And so I said, Anatoly, I gotta talk to you. I wrote this show, and it's a script, and you can read it if you want to, and I'm sure it won't go anywhere, and blah, blah, blah. And I was so scared. And he goes— Erin, this is really exciting. Okay, I just have one request. Don't make up look poor.

Oh, incredible. Make us look rich. Yeah, yeah, incredible. Guess what? They did.

And I said, okay, I can totally do that.

Easiest note you'll get in the whole project.

And he was so excited and supportive. And that was when Simon even realized that he was protecting them a lot in ways that he thought he was supposed to as a good son of immigrants. And like, that's what you're built to do.

Well said, immigrants.

We've talked about this. Immigrant culture is very similar across different backgrounds. Yeah, yeah. And so So he had that thing instilled in him that it's like a betrayal to his family.

It's your job to protect them.

Yes.

When you're the American kid.

And it turned out they didn't wanna be protected. They like success. Yeah. They wanna see their children thriving.

Yes. And their daughter-in-law to have a hit show. Come on.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. They're gonna tell their friends about it.

Yeah, that's exciting.

And that's what it ended up being. And it freed me. And then I was able to actually write it in a way that I enjoyed and not tank it. So when it hit, it was a lot leading up to that. I never, ever saw that coming. I could not have imagined.

No, on set, even on set, you were like, no one could have imagined. I remember I watched all episodes back to back and came to set one day and I go, it fucking works.

Yeah.

It fucking works. I remember it like it was yesterday. And you were like, I don't know. And I was like, it fucking works.

And season 1 was complicated.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was a tough time. And I was pregnant the whole time.

I was the husband.

You were the husband, you know?

Yeah. God, but season 1, it was hard. Yeah, it was hard.

It was a hard time, but then—

And then it turned out— Can't tell! No, it turned into something so great.

Yeah. I'm with Erin, my best friend Erin. We're in my bus in Texas.

Not me, a different person.

Okay. Me.

His best friend, Sarah.

Yeah.

Yes. Get it right.

Get it straight. Yeah. Erin Weekly. Sorry. Best friend Erin Weekly. And we were in my bus in Texas, and I'm like, okay, this show's out. Let's watch it. And the two of us are alone. watching this, and when they kissed for the first time, we screamed. We were like, oh my God, that's the best kiss I've ever fucking seen. You hadn't seen it?

You saw nothing?

No, I hadn't seen that. I saw it when it came out, but I just happened to leave on this bus trip right when it came out. So then we watched it, and Aaron's like, oh my God, has she ever kissed you like that? I'm like, no, I don't think I've ever been kissed like that. And we rewound it. We watched it like 5 times, and Oh yeah, this thing's gonna be a fucking juggernaut. If I'm the husband rewinding to watch—

Uh-huh, to watch your wife kiss someone.

The fucking chemistry. That's so good. And the way it's shot, like, yeah, this is gonna fucking work.

But I don't think we knew when we were making it, you know?

By the way, you never fucking know. It's not unique to this show. It's like, you shoot a pilot, sometimes you think, oh, this is a hit, and it's not. And then sometimes you're like, I don't know, and then it is. There's no fucking way. The magic of the zeitgeist, why on earth? Again, that show, it was so funny. I'm going to see my older Jewish doctors in Beverly Hills, and every one of them is talking my fucking ear off about my wife's show. And I'm like, you're a 70-year-old dude, you fucking— and then there's 12-year-old girls. You know, it's just like, I've never seen a range of people consume a show like that. Still can't totally explain it logically. I think I have theories. I think a lot of the things we love the most are really wish fulfillment. And I think to see a woman in her 40s, being Kristin, have this totally swept up in love moment.

Yeah.

Is so life-affirming and like wish fulfillment-y. I think that's part of it.

And that the relationship is good, even though obviously there's a huge hurdle.

Yeah.

But the actual relationship you're seeing is very healthy and aspirational and good. And I brought this up with the cast. I said, I think part of the reason is so compelling is your actual relationship, your love for Simon, and your respect for him. You see in that Adam-Kristin couple, Joanne and Noah couple, so clearly. And it's you guys.

It's terra firma. Bedrock. It's bedrock. It is. It's anchored in bedrock. It's anchored in something real.

It's very romantic, but also, it's— It's not dramatic. It's very healthy. And I think that usually you think you get one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I really like the idea of showing both because that's what we all want.

Yes.

I mean, maybe it's not what everyone wants, but it's what you should want.

Yeah.

You should want to be swept off your feet with someone who's gonna still be there in the morning and not play games with you.

Yeah.

But I think it's true, like, you can't say it about yourself, but I think there are few voices that can just make us feel all those things and laugh. Like Nancy Meyers. She hates when I say it, but like, it is that. That combined with Kristen, she's a comedic assassin.

She really is.

No, it's truly like— I knew she was, but when you're on set watching her, you're just like, oh, this is why she's making it as an actress.

She's a robot. You can tangle with Julia Louis-Dreyfus. She can do everything. She's crazy. She's like a robot.

We call her an acting robot.

She's like AI. Like, it doesn't fucking make sense.

You give her one note and it's perfect. It's like, it makes no sense.

I've had to edit her. many times in things. Couldn't be easier. She's holding the jar here in this shot. She's holding it exactly— and you're like, how are you giving that performance? And also your continuity is absolutely perfect. But how is she trained?

Is she like— what's her training?

Oh yeah, she's been acting since she was a kid. She went to NYU to teach for theater and stunt work.

But you can say like, I think it's like, I want you to be a little bit more like anxious about it. And she'll be like, 15% or like 70%? And I'm like, uh, 15? Great, I'll give you 15%. I'm like, what a psycho. Okay, great. That is actually what I wanted.

Yeah. And when I've directed her and I know those days are her, I'm like, oh, fucking easiest day. Every day on this shoot that's got her in it, I'm like, well, that's— I don't even think about that day.

By the way, if she said no, who knows if there would even be a show? Because I think for Netflix, they bought it kind of going, this is for Kristen Bell or nobody. This is for Kristen Bell. Because she wrote it for her. She wrote it for her and I. I was going to be the— I mean, not her and I, but I was maybe going to be the sister. But She was Joanne.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know? And Netflix was like,

no, thank you.

Yeah. But you know what? So we got this girl who seems to be working quite well on the streamer. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're like, she's—

We wouldn't mind sticking with her.

Yeah.

But Erin's in this season and she's fantastic.

Yes, I am in the season, one episode. Fantastic.

I was on set that day, weirdly. Yes, you were on set. That was one of the days, and I had not researched you yet, so I didn't even know you had acted. And I said to Kristin, fucking A, she's fucking— So funny.

So funny.

It was really scary, but Kristin was awesome and Adam was great, like shepherded me. And I said I needed them to be like my acting coaches. 'Cause I was really nervous. 'Cause now, this is the 3rd year we were doing the show. I knew what I was up against. I also know I'm usually the person sitting in video village where if someone is not getting it right, you're like, oh my God. Yeah, babe, do your job. Like, hello, we all wanna go home. Yeah. And now I'm like, what if I'm that person who can't remember their lines? Who was?

That's why acting's hard.

I was so scared. Acting sucks.

It's so scary.

Acting fucking sucks.

Yeah. It was really fun, but— no, no, it was really fun. But I certainly don't want to pursue that career anymore. Anyway, it's been incredible.

I'd like to see her in season 4.

You want to see Nicole?

Yeah, I want to see, like, maybe you have broken up the sister's wedding or marriage. Okay. Yeah, let's see what that train wreck looks like.

You want to know something funny? We've been writing you into this season.

Oh, you have?

Yeah.

Would you say yes?

I was watching season 3, which I love, and I jokingly said— who was I watching it with? I think Beth Aaron Weekly. And I was like, you know what? We're really with this guy? I think season 4 should— I come in and fuck this whole perfect party up.

Uh-huh. We have an idea that was formed a few weeks ago. We put your name on the board, thinking about it. And then today, we were in the room, and this idea for you actually pivoted and switched into something bigger. And then what we said was, well, let's ask him how many episodes he would actually want to be in before we make this choice.

Because

it's not like you have to be there all season or anything, but it would be pivotal and an important role. We felt like it would be a very fun, interesting thing to do.

You know what's funny? If you had asked me last year, I would've said no, 'cause I had not acted in 6 years, and I was very happy to not act. And then Bill Lawrence was in here, and he said, I'm gonna make you act on one of my shows. I'm like, I don't really want to do it. And he said, what if every scene's with Vince? And I was like...

I'll do that.

I've always wanted to do that. So I just did this and I loved it. I ended that experience and I was like, I'm more open to that than I thought. Ooh.

Okay. So we're catching you at the right time.

Yeah.

I'm saying, why haven't the podcast worlds collided?

Ooh.

Like that. Wait. On a plot. Are you bad? So do the girls

go on your

podcast or like, what is the podcast conference or something?

I'm basically cutting you out of this process.

I do think the podcast We need to see more of the podcast in 4. I love aspirational comedy. I'm like, we need to see some career wins.

One of my thoughts when I was seeing early stuff is I was like, I need to know why people recognize these girls when they go out in public. I need to know what they're talking about. I need to know what the fans like about it. I have wanted—

They're famous podcasters.

Yeah, I've wanted that. Yeah. As a viewer.

Minimally, you could consult me.

I know. We've had a hard time in the writer's room having the podcast be an interesting engine. We were using it more season 1 to tell the story, to show who they are. She gets back to talking to them.

You're right.

Sitting and watching people talk is limited. But I thought the way to tackle it is like, it's all about when you guys are out in public. Like what we could be learning about you from the fans is the way to keep that dynamic.

And you get it with Nicole.

Yeah. By the way, I play a fan of the pod.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Which is great.

And in the first season, when it was clear that he was sort of uncomfortable with you guys talking about sex, like that was helpful. Yeah. And good.

That was good.

And that's a real thing.

It's a real thing.

Like what you're talking about on here. It is. Totally. And it's coming back to bite you in the ass.

There's times on our podcast where I'll say, everyone listening, do not DM Simon about this. Don't mention anything if you see him out in the world. Like, just let this one go.

No, I just need to hear about it. The best thing in the world is that Kristen does not listen to the show at all. It's

like we could use her.

And I, and it would be more stressful if she did.

But would she be upset? She feels like she's okay.

No, she doesn't get upset, but it just would be more stressful.

Do you guys ever fight? You guys, to me, feel like I could not, and I obviously know you better than I know her. I know she knows you better than she knows anybody. I also feel like you know her, but I also don't know anything about your relationship. I think you know me better than she does. Yeah, I mean, if we're being honest. But I don't know a lot about your guys' relationship. You guys are very private. I feel like you guys are a couple that just get along really well.

Again, 19 fucking years. And I think we're pretty good at handling our shit. We have a lot of shit, though.

Yeah, of course.

Yeah, we have 2 children. Sure. And they are going through puberty. And that stressor is— it throws the whole dynamic into a new zone that you have to figure out, okay, how do we now navigate this? I think it's really hard when they're really little because you care so much about the decisions you're making. making with the kid, you're certain you can fuck it up.

And then it gets harder.

Exactly. So it's like you're butting heads about how you think this should be done, which is stressful if both people care a lot, which we did. And then there's a sweet spot, right? Between like 6 and puberty, you're like, this is working out pretty good. I think this compromise, however we're doing it, is working. And then a whole new situation comes in and you're like, fuck, well, now we need a new strategy. And I don't know that we always agree. And then there's more stress. I like to think if we didn't have kids, it would be pretty smooth sailing. But I think the kids thing definitely But we don't scream at each other or swear at each other.

You never scream?

No. I'm very large in my house, and I have to really be mindful of that. I just talk loud. Even how the level I talk is like, it's hard for me to remember. Oh, I'm much bigger than everyone. We're all talking at the same volume, I think. But it's different coming from me. Right.

You're like, we won't go to bed in a fight.

Yeah. I mean, we'll go to bed for sure. For like, we'll kick something down the road for a week. We'll go to bed for a week where it's like, we're going to have to talk about this eventually. What day? When will there be enough free air in the fucking room without the kids to mount this?

Also, when is it fun to bring it up?

Exactly. And that's like, you might have a reprieve from whatever kid stuff you're doing, and you're like, we want to use this tiny reprieve to address that. I guess we have to. So certainly there's like 4 or 5 nights in a row where you're like, there's a talk looming. You know, it'll be a sit-down.

It's a long talk.

Yeah.

It's great.

You guys are fantastic. Yeah. I'm so glad we had you on. This was so fun. It's so fucking fun.

It's really fun.

Yes.

We're all real friends now.

Did we overdeliver or underdeliver?

I say over big time.

She's like, goes to her— she always goes to her—

over.

Well, I also did that a little on purpose cuz I, you know, cuz I knew it was expected.

Yeah. Thank you guys so much for having us.

But sincerely, you guys are so fucking fun. Yeah, you are.

Thank you so much for having us.

And I think so many people are envious of how tight you guys are as siblings.

Yeah. That was the real, that's the real draw of the podcast.

It is.

That's what I realized when I was like, why can't I stop listening?

I was like, oh, it's their relationship.

And I'm jealous of it.

Again, that's the wish fulfillment aspirational thing. Yeah. Because, you know, it's rare.

You just can't get it any other way. Sisters and the way you guys grew up and all of it. There's no other way to—

I will never have that. The joy of it is, and I do think this is why people should definitely have siblings, is like your fucking siblings tell you the goddamn truth. We're so mean to each other's siblings, and yet we're closer and we love each other more and it works. Yeah.

When I first met you, I was like, they're so mean to each other. What? But then I was like, oh, but it's 'cause they're so safe. They're mean. Yeah.

Yeah. If you come downstairs in the morning, you've got a zit, my brother's gonna be like, fuck me, that's fucking— you know, like he's gonna let it rip.

Oh yeah.

But we say the craziest things to each other, but then, but we laugh.

Yeah. You know what I mean?

Exactly. It's

not like she says the most offensive things to me and I'm just like, oh, they're all true.

It's because you have true security.

Exactly.

Yeah. Which is like, you can only get it in a marriage. relationship.

Yeah, really lovely.

Love you guys. Thanks for having us.

He is an armchair expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here, she's gonna let him have the facts.

Are you wearing those boots specifically because you were anticipating deep water?

Yeah, I wore them yesterday and I definitely encountered lots of water.

I was wearing low-top Converse Chuck All-Stars yesterday and I too encountered deep water which is not a good match.

No, that's flooding.

Yeah.

Um, but I knew we were going to have rain again today, so I wore them. But it seems like maybe the rain is done.

Your fingers crossed?

My fingers are crossed. I hate rain.

Yeah, I'm enjoying

it. I knew it.

You knew I would.

A lot of people enjoy it. I understand that. Yeah, I don't— I don't You don't feel

it.

But I respect it.

Yeah. Intellectually understand it, but emotionally you can't find your way in.

Can't do it. It's so cloudy.

But the clouds are like silver and they look like paintings and the sun is breaking through sometimes.

Well, when the sun's breaking through, I like that.

Yeah. The walk to school today with Delta was just transcendent. It was so crisp. And I thought, oh, this is what people in Seattle experience every morning if they walk to school.

never live there.

You couldn't do it.

I could just absolutely never live there. It's one of— this is kind of like— no, I shouldn't make that comparison.

Oh, what were you gonna say?

I can't.

Okay, like, um, you were gonna say like Sarajevo during the war?

No, worse. Like, like if I didn't have— like if I didn't have a leg.

Uh-huh.

Which is fine if you don't.

Yeah, yeah.

But if I didn't, and then you were just like talking about how much I love Yeah, it's like that. Because I do have a disease. It's called sad.

Sad disease. Do you know how many other people it affects in the country? Have you ever looked that up?

Let's look it up.

I'm wearing compression socks today.

Oh, for real?

They go all the way up to my knees like stockings. I finally know what it's like to be—

Why are you doing that?

Because I assume, like most people, I hate leg day. And so recently I've been like, you know what? We need to eventize leg day like Pené does. I need a specific outfit. I wear for leg days. And so look at these.

Yeah, they're tall socks.

They're compression. And I put those on, they're absurd. And I go, oh, this must be time to— and then I feel like it has more support, which is probably not even true.

Is it good for working out? Because then isn't it like—

I don't know. It could be good or bad. If it gets me to do it, I bet that part's good.

Well, sure. But what if it's compressing the blood?

You think I should lower it? them now that I— that should do it.

Oh, you just did a quick— just easy. Oh wow, seasonal affective disorder affects approximately 5% of adults in the United States in any given year. That's a small group.

And also big. That's also 15 million people.

I know, but it's a small percentage that I'm in. It's a small club.

I wonder if they all live in Arizona or California. They should.

Exactly. Oh wow, women are affected at rates 4 times higher than men. It says, beyond clinical SAD, an estimated 14% to 41% of adults experience milder forms of seasonal mood change or winter blues.

Yeah. Well, I mean, look, I think sun has a pretty well-studied effect on mood.

Sure.

And hormones.

Of course.

So you're supposed to look at the sun in the morning.

Yes.

I was thinking about— that's a nice— you know, so many things about children are counterintuitive. Virtually none of the stuff do you want to do.

Yeah.

You don't want to run around town and drop kids off and pick them up.

American Girl doll store, birthday parties.

Yeah.

Ding, ding, ding.

But I will say lately I've been better at reframing it all, maybe because the end is in sight and that terrifies me. So I'm kind of like, yeah, one day no one's going to want me to walk them to school.

Horrible.

I'm not always dying to rush out the door to walk to school. But A, Delta and I always have a fun time talking. There's a man who lives right by the school on the sidewalk who daily, there's something exciting for us to witness. So that's one little chapter of the walk. But then on the walk back, I am walking directly into the sun rising this time of year.

Right.

It's like a direct shot at my eyes, but it's low enough that it doesn't hurt. And I'm like, oh, this is what they tell you tell you to do, which I would never wake up and go sit outside and stare at the sun for 20 minutes like Huberman wants.

Yeah, I was going to say, I feel like we tried that for a little bit after we had Huberman on.

Yeah, this is Huberman's main thrust for health, to synchronize your circadian rhythm. And I think up your cortisol in the morning, all this shit. All to say, I'm never—

Cortisol? That's bad.

No, cortisol is good. Too much cortisol in the wrong time is not good, but you peak cortisol in the day. There's a lot of stuff about energy.

Okay.

I can't imagine bracketing in 20 minutes of sitting first thing in the— especially after I've already meditated.

I was about to say, I mean, you do.

I would just start feeling like, when are we going to start my day? Like, crying out loud, we've been up for 2 hours.

Or can you be like reading?

I think you're supposed to be looking pretty much at the sun.

I thought your body was just needing to soak it.

No, specifically activated in your

Oh,

okay. Yeah, like if you wore an eye mask and sat in front of the sun, no bueno.

But it's also probably not— I think—

You're also supposed to look at the evening sun. That tells your body it's time to go nighties soon time.

Yeah, I'm not doing that.

But that walk. Yeah. And then last night we went out to Cafe 101.

Oh, nice. Yeah. Did you get a grilled cheese? Because it was raining.

The girls both got grilled cheeses.

Ah.

I'm so impressed with Delta. I can't imagine having the willpower at 11 years old. She has quit eating cheese.

Oh, that's right.

And dairy.

I forgot.

'Cause she gets really stuffed up like I do.

Yeah.

But like, what 11-year-old's gonna have the willpower to turn down macaroni and cheese and grilled cheese and stuff?

So good.

But God bless her. She— so she just got the fake cheese grilled cheese.

They have that thing?

They have a fake cheese grilled cheese. And she's like, it's not as good, but it's good.

Okay.

It's kind of like me. I'm eating— I'm sitting there eating a burger with no cheese and no bun.

Right.

I'm all a

mess. Yeah,

but I'm fucking 51 and I can do it barely. So anyways, I'm just really impressed with it.

That is impressive. I was— that's really funny. It's also Sim. It's soulmates. It was just at a different location. I was working. I'm not gonna say the location because Jess met me and— nope. And it wasn't wasps, it was mosquitoes. Um, Jess met me and we, uh, both, you know, of course, like, gotta in our bonnet to get made.

About?

About wanting a grilled cheese.

Oh, uh-huh.

And the place we were at doesn't have that.

Yeah.

And then we were saying it to our server, who we kind of know, and we're just like, oh, I really want a grilled cheese. And he was like, I bet we could probably have that made.

Yeah, they must have enough ingredients.

And we were like, no, no, no, no. But they did it. It felt like we were kings.

Yeah, amen, yeah.

Just like you say you want something and it appears. 'Cause you're loyal customers.

We're loyal customers. This is where it pays off.

I mean, and we were like, charge us $100, I guess.

Yeah.

You know, it was really nice. But, um, I also, you know, then it's like I wanted the— I wanted tomato soup.

Do you think you could whip up a tomato soup?

I know, but this weather does call for such.

Yeah. Do you— are you gonna get one today?

I might.

Yeah,

now that we're talking about it, maybe I'll get it for lunch.

Yeah. Um, but after the meal together at Cafe 101, we bought Rummy Cube. was fun. Really pigged out. And then Delta wanted to go to Target to get socks.

Oh, is that where you got your compression socks?

No, I had gotten these previously. Okay. But I don't want to go to Target, you know. I don't like going to stores. You got to park, it's LA. And I'm like, fuck, I got to go to Target again. I don't want to go to Target, but I'm going to go to Target. And right before we get to Target, we're at the intersection about to pull into Target. And Delta goes, when does Target end? And I go, presumably when they go out of business. And she goes, no, when do they end? She was being belligerent. She— something about that fake grilled cheese, she got herself in a belligerent mood. It was very funny. And I go, do you mean when does it close? And she's like, yeah, when does it end? And I go, no, those are not interchangeable.

Oh, you were getting into a debate.

We got into a fun debate about that.

Okay.

I ended up, once we got to the register, I asked the guy, sir, when When do you guys end?

Yeah. To make her happy.

She liked that. Also, I was feeling really rambunctious because I didn't want to be there. So I was running like I was going to clear the shelves and trash the place.

Oh, my God.

Yeah. And then Lincoln was saying if she ever had a terminal disease, that's her last wish in life, is to run through Target with her arms out and pull everything off the shelf. Anyway, all to say, we had a fucking blast. Sounds like it. Such a blast. And then because Kristen's out of town for a week, I've been going to bed with them at 9 o'clock.

That's nice. You're getting too much sleep. It's probably why you're acting crazy.

No, I can't. That means I wake up at 4:50 in the morning. So I've been waking up at 5:00 AM all week. But again, I'm like, yeah, I don't want to do this. But I got to say, I like having all that time before they get up. What do you do? Well, I do all my stuff.

Yeah. But then there's some more hours.

Yeah. And just, I don't know what I do, but I'm never, I'm not in a rush. I'm very ready to walk to school. I'll tell you that much. Yeah.

That's good.

Yeah. But I just journaling about it and I'm like, all this stuff is so counterintuitive. It's just like, it's just a lineup all week of things running around doing a lot of stuff that I would not choose to do.

Yep.

And in the morning I like myself.

Love it. I had the opposite experience. I, woke up to like a bunch of texts on a group chat I'm on with 2 other girls. And there's so many, you know, there's so many and I'm reading all of them. And then at one point someone was like, I guess Monica sleeps in.

Okay. All right. Yeah. Okay. Does it all kicked off early in the morning?

I guess early in quotes was probably like regular time.

What time did you wake up? I bet with this weather you can go.

I mean, I woke up at 8:30.

Okay.

Yes, I could have slept till now. Yeah. I think I could sleep all day.

All day, yeah. If I didn't have things to do. Is that depression?

I don't think so. Okay. I think it's just like—

Cozy.

Yeah, just so cozy.

Pop on a little telly and drift in and out. Or no telly at all.

No, yeah, in and out. And then it's like I can check Instagram and then go back to sleep and then play Wordle and then go back to sleep. I could just stay there.

Yeah, that sounds nice. I mean, I've never done it, but I

one day I want to do it.

Yeah, you should do it.

I'm going to schedule it on my Cal. I mean, yeah, I guess the fear is like, oh my God, is that depression? You just like don't want to get out of bed. But it's, it's not like the day—

like, it's not that. It's not a feeling of insurmountable dread.

No, it's just like, it's just nice here. I'm tired.

Yeah, feels nice in here. I have nice bedding.

I have an Eight Sleep, uh-huh, so I can set the temp.

Yeah. Which is nice. You run warm? You run it warm or cold?

I— so you're supposed to run it cold. It's like good for your sleep.

Yeah.

And in the summer I was doing that, but then recently I've been making it warm.

Like what temp?

Well, they don't have— it's like— You ain't got smart heat? I don't. Oh, I don't think you do. Like, plus 1, plus 2. No, I don't know. I live there, so how would I know? God, that is obviously my greatest fear. Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

Someone's gonna come in there to, you know, perform a sexual act.

Uh-huh.

And then they're gonna be like—

Too musty.

What is this here? Too humid in here. What is this smell in here? Like, oh, ding, ding, ding to a predator.

I have a pet. It's just he or she's not here right now.

She hides, but she stinks.

It's an iguana.

That's Sim. You said that. Why? The movie.

Oh, I don't want to know.

I know. I mean, it's not— it's actually not like a—

I'm really upset. I was going to see it tomorrow. I bought tickets now, and then Kristen sent a screengrab from New York saying Sunday she had gotten tickets. So I got to wait more. That's a lot of days. Dude, there's a lot of days, and I'm so afraid someone's going to tell me. This is, um, You Can See Everything. Is that what it's called?

You Can See Everything. Yeah.

You Can See Everything. That's what we're

Yes.

Yeah. So I'm really nervous that I'm going to learn stuff.

I'm scared for you because there are some spoilers.

Yeah. I don't want to know. And I— it's going to be hard to wait.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

consider lying?

No, not lying. But I did do the analysis. Well, am I willing to just sit through it again?

Yeah. Like, could you tolerate—

Because it's 3 hours and I don't know what kind of movie it is, I was too afraid to—

Commit to that.

Yeah.

I understand.

Now, there are movies, like, had I seen Barbie early, I could have seen it 2 days later, no problem. Fall Guy. List goes on. But this type of movie, I'm not sure if I want to see it again 2 days later.

I know. I'm debating that too.

Do you want to see it again?

I can't decide. You

wanna go tomorrow?

My parents are gonna be in town, so I can't. I do wanna see it again, but I am like, God, it's 3 hours. Yeah,

yeah.

Do I wanna do that again? And the shock, and like the— although I'm sure I'll get new things out of it.

Right.

Which would be interesting.

Right. How long are your folks staying?

They're here like almost a week.

Oh, fun.

I think they're gonna be a little depressed when they get here, 'cause they normally spend their weekends with Fizzy.

Oh, you're a little nervous.

So it's like, Oh, God, I'm not going to be—

But they spend the entire weekend FaceTiming. They will.

They will. Even—

Speaking of fizzy.

Yeah. He's like—

I met a Lazzy.

Oh.

Yeah. I went to All Time yesterday, 2 days ago by myself. And when I walked in, there was the cutest little baby boy. He was 5 months old. And I asked the mom if I could chat with her friend and we spent some time hanging. His name was Lazarus.

Oh, cute.

Isn't that cute?

Lazarus or Lazarus? Lazarus.

Lazarus.

Oh.

Isn't that cute? But he probably would go by Lassie.

He should.

Lassie and Fizzy.

They could be friends.

Virtually the same age.

Yeah, similar ages. He's looking real cute. My brothers sent us this most recent pic. I think it was Monday.

Uh-huh.

Or Tuesday. Um, and my dad said, he looks bigger than when I saw him on this week— on Saturday. And I was like, I was doing the math and I was like, 2 days ago?

You guys are nuts. Yeah, they're in baby land. It's so cute.

It's so cute. I think I am also jealous. Like, I'm jealous that I don't get to see him every weekend. Like, I don't get to do that.

Yeah.

And be like, ah, he's bigger. 'Cause like, of course he's bigger every time I see him.

Yeah.

He's gonna be a grownup when I see him at Christmas.

He's gonna be driving.

I hope he can talk by then.

I don't think— as smart as I doubt that.

I'm gonna teach him some words.

He's also a boy, which means—

I just have visions of me, like, teaching him words and, like—

Like, nice words.

Like, vocab words. Yeah. And then people are like, how did you— why are you such a literary genius? Why are you a wordsmith? Yeah. And then I'm like, oh, my aunt, you know, when I was 4 months old, she taught me prima facie.

All the words you hate that I say, you're secretly like, teaching Fizzy. It's funny you say that. That is one of my favorite parts of both of our daughters is they have banging vocab words.

They have great vocab.

And they're not like doing it show-offy. It's just very organic. And they get me a few times. I'm like, God, I didn't learn to use that word till like 34. A lot of those situations.

Well, reading is important. They read a lot.

Well, just they're being talked to.

Yeah, but both. I think both. There's like— my vocabulary was so much better when I was reading.

Was it? Yeah.

And I don't read anymore. Ding, ding, ding. Friend of the pod, Lauren Graham. Friend of the pod and friend of—

This is crazy you're saying her name.

Yes, she texted me.

She did?

Yes. Because she— she texted me because of my pumpkin display.

Oh, okay.

I, this weekend, went on a big pumpkin mission with Jess. We went to 2 different locations. Patches? No patches. I wanted to go to a patch, but—

You gotta go out to Sunland for that.

Yeah, it felt far away. Or Beverly Hills, Mr. Bones. Do they— are they still doing that?

Well, that's still a parking lot. I'm saying you can go up to 14 in like, uh, Acqua Dolce and shit, and they have real patches where they grow them.

We're not doing that. We went to Trader Joe's, and then we went to Albertsons, another grocery store. But it was also So, you know, we're almost at Halloween. So some of these pumpkins have been there a minute.

Sure.

And— but we need good ones. We have to figure out, do we get a big one? Like, you know, where are they gonna be placed? So we're gonna need a big one here, mediums. We're figuring all this out. There's a lot

of math

to making your pumpkinscape. And he picked up one, and I saw this happening slow motion as he's picking up one. His hand is like going inside the pumpkin 'cause it was all mushy.

Whoa! And it was—

and I was like, Yes! And then he was realizing—

I'm just thinking of that Armchair Anonymous.

The leg?

Jell-O legs. The leg, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was so— it was like, it was a very visceral experience. He did get over it quick.

Yeah, he's good like that.

And he made me buy a warty pumpkin.

Okay.

That's not my normal pick.

I know.

Um, and he was like, I, I, I think you—

Charlie Brown Christmas tree style. It needed love.

Yeah. He was like, it's— we need— well, he's just draw— he just like likes them, you know? And I was like, fine, I guess we can get one. Um, and so we did. And, you know, we made sure to unpack her last.

Okay.

So the rest of the siblings—

Didn't get words.

Well, we wanted to talk to them first.

Oh, okay.

And just say—

Don't call this out.

Yeah.