Transcript of Ashe New

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepherd. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Hi.

Today we have Ash, a singer-songwriter and a great guest at a wedding. I don't think she leads with that, but as someone who attended a wedding with her, I gotta tell, I gotta tell everyone that she is a party to have at your wedding.

Great.

If you're looking to fill some seats and she has availability, I would reach out. Her albums are Wilson, Ray, Ashlyn, and The Dream, which is with Finneas, their band, The Favors. And she has a new album out on the 16th of October called The Girl of Your Dreams, which contains the incredible song Stop the Wedding, which we are going to be lucky enough to hear.

She sings for us, guys.

She blows us right out of our chairs. It was such a treat. Please enjoy Ash.

That one over here. Is this one good? Fine?

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, it's not gonna bite Monica or— Yeah, up her butt. That's her ultimate fear.

When they're in the toilet, those snakes, and they come right up Whoa, what?

They're known to—

How often are y'all hanging out outside of this?

Well, we're together 5 days a week, and then she's generally around before and after a bit.

Yeah, we do some hangs before and after.

Her best friend is on the porch at all times, Anna.

That's right. She works for Kristin. So, you know, there's a lot of hanging.

It's very incestuous.

It is.

I love that.

It is. I used to basically spend the night every night.

Yeah. During COVID she lived with us for quite a period, just immediately post-season.

Yeah, I had a seizure.

Whoa!

Yes. And so my mother, Kristen, felt like she needed to keep an eye on me.

My mother, Kristen.

Yeah.

She did.

And it was very sweet.

If I could have her as my mother checking on me, I would be down.

I recommend her as a mother.

Knitting me.

I think she's taking new patients, actually.

She is?

Yeah, I think you might be able to slide in there.

Okay, will do.

Okay, so now the wedding. We met at a wedding, and I just want to tell you, we met at a wedding. I want to say from my perspective what happened, which was there was a rehearsal dinner, or what is conventionally the rehearsal dinner, the night before, right?

I know what you're gonna say.

Okay, and I'm at a table, and I even shared about it on here, that I was positioned between polar opposites of a spectrum, like someone who grew up in communist Poland and then a music manager who's been doing it for 30 years and has seen every level of depravity, right?

So yeah, they put you in Yes.

So I was bouncing back and forth between these conversations, and then I was randomly also glancing because I'm the oldest person there. I'm like, well, non-family member. I'm surveying who's at the other table, right? And I'm just kind of like going down. I'm like, I don't know that— that person looks like they're on TV. That person looks like an influencer. And then all of a sudden I see your little face and you're staring directly at me. You mouth, as I recall, I want to meet you, or something like that, right?

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, how comforting. There's all these young people and I feel very old. And then I got to meet you and it was a delight on my end.

That's nice. It was a delight to get to meet you. I don't know what got into me at that wedding. I was so social.

How fun.

In a way that I'm fairly introverted. I present bubbly. I present extroverted.

Yes.

But I very much Am not.

False advertising. Kristen's similar.

That's all fake, right?

She's similar. Yeah.

I saw her at breakfast knitting.

There you go.

By herself.

Very on brand.

Very like, what you doing over there, Kristen?

She really likes to recharge by herself.

Yes.

I would say not even recharge, just be. She likes solo time.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's something special to that.

I agree.

I Once in a while, and I think Phineas's wedding was such a good place to do that, where I'm like, I'm here by myself. My husband was at a wedding, his best friend's wedding.

Mr. Canada.

John Canada.

Is the house divided?

So we had 2 weddings this year, and they were on the same day.

Oh, man.

The wedding he went to was like a 30-person, tiny, private—

In a field?

Yes, on a cliff. That sounds nice. We were at a different wedding.

We were in high cotton, as they would say. Do you know that term?

No.

It means like things are good, wealth is there, you know, like you're highfalutin.

Yes.

Yeah, it's probably a very—

I know, I probably hated that.

You can't separate cotton production from slavery, which is certainly hard to do.

I was like, cotton is a word we like, I guess, can't say anymore.

It's a triggering word. But, but I do think when the cotton was high, that meant like, oh, you're about to get paid. Oh, you know, when it's high cotton, we're about to harvest and everyone's gonna get paid.

And the cotton is high.

Okay, right. So again, if we can somehow parse out Yeah, it's hard to do.

It's hard to do.

It's challenging. There's a lot of these words that went down.

It was a fancy wedding.

It was fancy. It's certainly the fanciest.

It was really nice. It was really nice.

It was wonderful.

Yeah, because I don't want to give the impression that it was ostentatious. It was not. It was just beautiful.

Also, another reason why I felt so social is like, I am one of Phineas's good friends.

Yeah.

And I knew that these people are here because they love him. He doesn't have superficial relationships.

Yeah.

Right.

So I knew that I was safe. So when Jason Sudeikis is like, you know, a couple seats down from me, I'm like, hey, buddy. All right, we've never met before, but we're gonna be friends.

Yeah.

Yeah, I felt very comfy. And so I met you, and I just immediately was like, oh, this guy's so down to earth and sweet.

Well, thank you. The power of a wedding, which was really on display there, I almost could see the utility of weddings historically, which is You trust everyone there. We all love this person. This person has cosigned on all of us, and there's an immediate kind of trust. I think people were being very candid immediately.

Yeah.

Like that you wouldn't be in another setting. But it's just like, okay, these two who we trust have vetted everyone here. Also, I do want to say, because I would hate for anyone to get the wrong impression, yet there were a couple heavy hitters there, Sudeikis being one, Biebs, but In a lovely way. Most people were childhood friends from both folks.

Yeah. I mean, you had me there.

Yeah. How long have you— when you met Finneas at 19, did you tell me?

He was 19.

He was 19.

I was 22.

Okay.

I'm the big sis for sure. We adopted each other pretty quickly.

Yeah. How did you meet?

Technically, we met in a crosswalk. We knew of each other and were in mid-crosswalk going like, hey. And then we needed to get out of traffic. But then we got put in a writing session a couple of weeks later.

At ages 22 and 19?

Yeah.

Okay. Who was putting together a writing session at those ages?

We had managers that were at the same company.

Oh, okay.

So they're like, we think you guys are gonna like each other. And I was married at the time, the first round.

Yeah, this practice round.

Yeah, the tough round.

Yeah.

The round that makes your marriage tougher.

Yeah, 22's an ideal age to get married.

Yeah, that was crazy. Or no, actually, I was 23. I got married at 23.

Oh, wow.

But that session with Phineas, I think you meet some people that you immediately— I don't know what you guys feel about past lives. Oh, yeah.

Hit us with it.

Do you get into that?

Well, listen, we do a lot of astrology here, which is not my bag, but I don't mind doing it. And so, yeah, I'm up for past lives. Let's hear it.

You buy into it. I don't buy into you're coming back as a beetle or a tree or whatever. Yeah, I mean, I don't think of it that way.

I'm not certain of that.

Sure. I feel pretty certain, 'cause there are folks that I've met, and even how comfortable I was with you immediately, I don't know that we were best friends, in a past life? Maybe. But I think maybe we ran in. You were my barista. There was a comfortability there.

Yes.

I buy into that. And Phineas and I, we must have been like mother-son.

Okay.

Or maybe he was the mother and I was the son.

Sure.

You know, just really connected. And I've only had a few of those people.

The documentary about those two had not come out yet, right? About he and Billie.

Oh, no. Billie had just put out Ocean Eyes.

Oh, wow.

And it was just starting to take off when we met. So I really got to meet him in his most vulnerable state.

Pre-everything.

You know?

That's the best time.

When things were starting to rise, but he wasn't Finneas yet.

Right. He wasn't a single-name artist that everyone knows.

No. And I feel really lucky that we met back then. Also, just to have all the years that we've had. Under us now, but love him dearly. I loved the wedding.

It was so fun.

I had the best time. You—

Hit me.

I have to say this.

Okay, please do.

You and Kristin are so free.

Oh, thank you.

You were on the dance floor just—

Letting it rip.

Thrashing yourself around. You heard about the shirtless?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Yeah, well, that was later in the day.

It was hot as Hades, right? It was a very hot, hot weekend.

I thought to myself, this Armchair Expert episode is gonna go so well 'cause I have seen him Wow. And I thought, I'm good.

This is gonna be great. If he had it his way, every guest would see him half naked.

Hey, now. Hey, now.

Yeah, you wanna rip that shirt off anytime you can.

Well, it has to be justified.

By the way, you were a hit. You know that we were all talking about it the next day, right?

No, that makes me— of course it makes me— again, I'm the oldest person there, so, you know.

No!

I mean, just objectively, of the friendship group, I'm the oldest one there by far.

Is Jason?

You were born the year I graduated from high school, Ash.

Well, you look good, honey.

You look good. Thank you. Thank you. That delights me to no end, 'cause I was totally comfortable, by the way. But I'm also very cognizant of the fact that everyone here is in their 20s, for the most part, or beginning of 30s.

Did that make you uncomfortable at all? No, not at all. It didn't.

I'm just aware of it. And then you're trying to gauge, like, you don't want to be the weird old guy at a wedding. So I'm like, this may be the last year of my life I could go shirtless here, and it's not insane.

You were not the weird— no one thought of you as old.

And by the way, you're not old.

You do not look old.

I don't have an old energy.

No, you're very youthful.

Yeah. But I would say that is why they are free. They are older. There is a wisdom. Like, age frees you a bit.

There's an embodiment, I feel like— correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah.

I feel like you seem, and your wife seems this way as well, very certain of who you are.

I like to think so. Yeah, I think I'm pretty positive of who I am at this point.

And you're probably pretty okay with that guy. I am at this point.

Yeah, yeah. I had to quit a lot of things and do a lot of things to arrive here. So yeah, I like where we've landed.

For sure. To that point, that just tells me you've worked really hard to get to a place where you're okay with who you are.

Yeah.

And probably proud to be that person.

Now, let's be honest as well. I had exchanges with Bieber. I'm still self-conscious, right? In that moment, I'm aware of the enormous status gap. Yeah, like, it's an objective. I understand he lives in a different world than me. He has the pressure of if he is close to you, you're thinking about that he's close to you, right? That's an alienating and an isolating experience that I don't have to deal with.

That's not an enviable position. I don't ever want to be in a space where the whole room is hyper-aware that I'm there and it's stressful, kind of half looking. That's That's too much pressure on any person.

No, I think that's why I kind of never looked in his direction. I was like, let's not— let's not make him feel— yeah. The story I told myself was that you guys were all at his bungalow partying.

This is great.

Playing music. His music.

Oh, really?

Because you guys, I think, were maybe next to each other.

I didn't even know that.

I'm not a stalker. I just saw you guys at some point going— we're all neighbors.

Yeah, yeah.

I thought I heard you laugh and I heard Bieber music. And so I thought you guys—

Oh, I wish.

I thought y'all were very close.

No, that was my first time talking to him in real life.

Wow.

Isn't that funny? We're all doing that.

Yes, we all have stories.

Yeah, we're all making assumptions about other people and their relationships and where we stand and all that. Oh, it's so interesting.

It's like the grand social experiment.

It is.

Yeah. And you're kind of at least I was, I was qualifying my position there. Why do I get to be here in this very special moment of their lives? And why do they get— who's that motherfucker here? Why do they deserve to be here? You know, I was very psychoanalyzing it.

Well, we're little monkeys.

We are.

And we're in a little group of people. And then, like, status is undeniably on the table and obvious. Like, again, if Bieber's there, that is what it is.

Yeah.

My heart goes out to him because I would have a really hard time in that situation. It would be really hard for me.

Yeah. I think Monica's right. I don't think it's an enviable position and hard to relate to others. Like, we're relating to each other, the experience of being there and a little nervous and like, does this person know who I am or they don't?

Yes.

He had a completely— I can only guess.

He'd be stupid to not assume every person there knew who he was.

Totally.

Okay. I want to know about San Jose. Take me to San Jose, 1993.

You're born— Wow.

A stone's throw from the Capitol.

I look so cute.

Isn't she the cutest?

And 2 things I want to say about— and I never do this, I never comment on looks. Wow.

I'll take it.

It's nice. It is. Of course. No, you're so beautiful. You remind me of Lincoln.

Oh, sure.

His oldest daughter.

Yeah.

Oh, maybe that's why you like me.

Well, I think you're really likable. That's why I like you.

Yeah, you are very likable.

But you guys have a son. similar energy. And also, are you familiar with Gillian Jacobs?

Gillian Jacobs, yes.

Love the show Love that we love.

Oh yes, I loved that show.

You are her twin. Do you get this?

I know what you're saying.

I've never gotten that. I've gotten some random ones.

This is you.

I'm now permitted to join in.

You really look like her. I will take that compliment. I would have gone up to her if she was at the wedding.

Yeah, yeah, you have a history of going up to people.

You know my Margot Robbie story?

I do, I do, I do. Oh, you listened to her too?

Oh my God.

So you went somewhere with Finneas. There's a really funny backstory in this, which is Finneas has already written the Barbie song and it's already won an Academy Award, and he's never met Margot Robbie, right? Yeah.

Loser.

Yeah. You guys go to a barbecue together and she's there. Is that the story?

It was a Halloween party.

Oh, Halloween party. Yeah.

I was Marie Antoinette.

Marie Antoinette.

I had like the beehive and the whole thing. and the blood across my neck. I looked dope.

Yeah. I looked good as hell.

I had a couple drinks. Sure.

Yeah, yeah.

I saw her and I just thought, why not?

Yeah.

Sure.

Just go. Go up to her. You got nothing to lose. You do. Oh, you have everything to lose.

No, you're right. You have nothing to lose.

There's no harm in asking. There's harm in asking. I'm finding that a lot recently. This is such a tangent, but people will ask me for something Sometimes there is harm. Like, even messaging you the other day, I was like, if I ask him this question and he's uncomfortable, it puts you on the spot. There could be harm in that. Well, it's nerve-wracking.

I'm the perfect person. I did feel like there's enough of a kinship where I was flattered to be asked to be in her video. That's what she asked me to do.

Oh, that's so fun.

I don't know if I should bring that up.

I'm recording 2 moms' cars that day back to back on Saturday. And I have the kids and no life. Yeah, can't do it.

He's a very Busy fella.

Well, that's so flattering to ask someone that. But also, I agree with you that some asks are too much.

They like change your perception of somebody.

Yeah.

When someone asks you something that you don't want or feel like is probably was an inappropriate ask of you, my approach now is I completely ignore it. Like, I refuse to let you put me in a position where I've got to now explain to you why I don't want to do it. Be uncomfortable. You be uncomfortable. The whole thing is like, you made this mistake. And it's not mine to deal with. And so I just fucking ignore it. If it's something that I think is crossing the line or it's just too murky and I don't want to deal with it, I feel emboldened to just pretend it never happened. It's on them.

I think that's incredible advice.

I don't owe you to be in this crazy, uncomfortable situation because we have our phones on us all the time.

I think people assume that they have access to us, free access. And I feel like I've been learning this in the last couple of years, and I think Finn has helped me with this, but no one has permission to my access without me saying, hey, yes. So if you happen to have my number, which now you do—

I do.

If you text me or call me, great, but I haven't just given you permission to have access to me every single moment of the day.

Yeah, no, and if I text you at some point and say, my daughter loves The wedding song. She wants to hear it on her birthday. Will you leave her a message? Ignore that.

Ignore it.

Yeah.

What are you talking about?

Or if it's for Lincoln.

Okay, but think of the example. But if, like, I'm asking you to be an on-demand organ grinder monkey for my amusement, you just ignore it.

Yeah.

Because they're not going to have the balls to bring it back up.

You're also a man.

I sure am.

Do you feel like— I'm curious if you feel a different experience that As women, I feel like I've a little bit had to— if you don't respond, then you're a bitch.

100%.

You feel that way?

I like that advice. I wouldn't feel comfortable ignoring.

I do think it's great advice, by the way.

For years I confronted it. I would go like, you know what, I don't think this is like a fair ask of me. But now I'm in a debate with you, they get defensive. This is like 6 exchanges that I don't deserve to have to do.

And that's also an option. You can be like truthful and say, this is inappropriate. Or you can do the really easy thing, which is just say, hey, I'm sorry, I can't.

No thanks.

You can lie.

You can lie. Or it's actually not a lie. You can't because you saying yes would not make you feel good, right? So yeah, you can just say, oh, I'm so sorry, I can't do that.

Period. Period.

And then that does go away. But you've responded honestly with a boundary.

But do you think they would interpret that as, I can't do it, period. Like, oh right, she's on her period. That's why she can't do it.

Well, I probably am.

Yes, you are. You are.

So, you know, in that way it's honest too.

If it's the luteal phase.

I can't.

Yeah.

I can't, period.

We're always on our period.

Okay.

You get like one week free.

We are always in our luteal phase, by the way. You're actually— guys, I'm ovulating today. Do I feel magnetic?

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're glowing. Fertile.

Fertile.

You're catching me on such a good day. Tomorrow it all changes.

I now have the app.

You do? To follow—

Flow.

Flow.

Yes.

And I have Flow for Partner.

Sick.

Yeah. And if I open it, and I'm not going to say who I got it for, there's just a lot of women in my life, let's just say. And I have it.

You didn't get it for your wife?

This will get cut off. You got it for your daughter? Well, I have daughters that I need to know too if they're on another planet. Yeah.

Yeah.

So at any rate—

All on one app?

Well, no, we started it with—

Like a shared calendar?

I think that's genius.

But at any rate, Yes, I opened it.

I've only used it a couple of times. I happened to be a hero this once. I opened it and it said, your partner's 4 days out, offer her a substantial meal. Well, the night before, I had made the most enormous batch of spaghetti that was exceedingly substantial. And I was like, look at this. I'm fucking ahead of schedule. Isn't that crazy?

It gives you tips? You were, like, locked into the cycle already.

I somehow subconsciously knew it was time to prepare a substantial meal the night before.

Genius.

I recently had my IUD taken out about 4 months ago. We're not ready to have a baby today. I have a hit song right now.

Yeah, you're busy.

We're working on that first. But next year, I was like, well, I want to make sure my body is ready when that time comes.

Yeah, you want to get in that natural rhythm there for a minute.

Yeah, and I never had PCOS when I first hit puberty, and then when I went off birth control pill for 10 years, which is now famously horrible for you.

And I, I don't know.

For 10 years.

I was on it for a long time too.

Really? Mm-hmm.

Oh, very long.

Are you natural now?

Well, I got off.

It's your personal question.

No, it's fine.

You do not have to answer that.

No, of course.

I froze my eggs.

Can I see your—

how many eggs you got?

Let's take a look.

Oh, I don't have very many. I'll tell you that. Girl. So I froze my eggs. And actually this is important because I refused to get off birth control. I was like, I'm not getting off birth control just to freeze my eggs.

This is part of my daily life.

I need it. I need it. I need it for X, Y, and Z, blah, blah, blah. Even though the doctors were like, it's probably gonna be better for you if you get off of it for a couple months. I'm like, I'm not. I didn't.

Wow.

And then that went horribly.

You didn't get off it?

I did not get off. I got off of it like the month before, and then I did the retrieval, and then I got 2 eggs, which is not ideal.

Scary.

And then I did it again. And so then I was like, oh, fuck. Okay, I should probably do it again. And I will Stay off the birth control. So I was off of it for a year. I did it again and it was a better result. Still wasn't amazing, but it was better. So it is important to be off of it for a little bit.

I think your body—

It's so crazy.

I have no idea how old you are.

39.

You look so—

what?

That is— I mean, could be 20s for sure.

I will take it. I'm not gonna fight it.

See, I was graduating. She was in kindergarten when you were born.

Yeah, I was.

Yeah.

Wow. Those are really good changes.

Kindergarten. Thank you.

Kindergarten. But yeah, congratulations on making that choice. That's so intimidating and scary. And I'm glad the second round was better.

Yeah.

She made a whole podcast about it, which is phenomenal, called Race to 35.

I will be listening to that. Thank you.

Yeah, I did it with a friend and we went through every day.

Wow.

What we're feeling, what we're doing.

We talked a lot. You're gonna turn 33.

This is a great time.

We're in that window where I'm like, let's get all the tests done. Yeah. Phineas actually told me to do the— is it Genome where you get your blood tested and see if you have any of the Yeah.

Some of the stuff, diseases.

I had nothing.

Amazing.

And now my husband doesn't have to do it.

Uh-huh.

Because our kids won't— you're the idea that you both get something.

He has a recessive.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, sometimes we just get here. This is what we do. Yeah. Yeah. This is what we do.

You guys are really good.

Oh, Margot Robbie is how we got here.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which I, by the way, haven't told the story yet.

I know, I know, I know. It's earmarked.

It's okay. We don't have to talk about it. No, we have to.

Let's go back. So, okay, you approach her.

Why did I bring up the IUD again? Oh, Oh, the cycle. I, I'm ADHD. I get it. Yeah.

We all are.

You're in good company.

I want to get to a normal place, and now I'm starting to, but I've never experienced the full range of the female scope until the last 4 months.

Yeah.

How's that going?

Wow.

What are the highs? What are the lows?

I genuinely feel this week of the— you're ovulating. I feel more magnetic. I feel more social. I feel funnier.

You're open. to mating?

I would like to mate. I have found people attractive this week that are not attractive. Never.

Oh God, that's great.

I, I love my husband, he would be fine with me saying this, but whoa, this week hits and you're like, oh my God, has he always been that good-looking? I don't think so.

That's great.

But then 2 days from now I will be—

yeah, everyone will be disgusted.

Anyways, it's just interesting. Margot Robbie was great.

Okay, now I know how it started because we were wondering if there's bad questions. That's where it all started. Then it turned into— yes. So yes, you see her, you decide, I'm going in. You've had a couple drinks, you approach her, and what do you say?

I say, hi, so sometimes people say that we kind of look alike, which is the worst thing you could say to Margot Robbie. Because she's one of the most beautiful people on the planet. So you're gassing her.

How did she respond? Let's first find out the answer to that, because I think it went well.

It went so well. Well, because she's lovely and she said we should start a band.

Great response.

I mean, so cute. Oh, and then she said she has a cousin who looks like us.

Oh my God.

There's 3 of you.

So she was like, we'll rope my cousin in. I think it was cousin. It could have been someone else, but—

The triplets.

I think you can get Gillian involved. We got a real something.

Okay.

Genius. This is what a friend of mine did.

Okay.

So my friend Scott Johnson constantly got told he looked like Kiefer Sutherland all through our 20s. And lo and behold, he's at a bar drinking one night in Koreatown, and he goes into the bathroom and fucking Kiefer Sutherland is standing in front of the mirror.

Like 24?

Well, Scotty at this point is probably 30. 24 Kiefer? Oh, yes. And then—

That's who he is in the show.

Oh, sorry. Yes, the actor. I have no idea. Scotty saddles up next to him at the sink and he goes, you must get so fucking sick of people telling you you look like Scott Johnson. Which bowled him over. Yes, he started laughing. They went and drank together, and then Scotty went back to his house and they partied all night. Oh, that's such a funny way to say it.

Possible way for that to go.

But I think that's the move. Instead of telling people that you look like them, do you say—

That's crazy though, because you have to look You do have to.

But reminder, liquid courage was involved.

Yes.

I would not have said— I thought it was a cute connecting moment. It was.

It was.

Luckily she was great.

Yeah. I guarantee she agrees.

This is my best story. There's no way.

My best story.

He remembers this story.

Also, she's like, we should start a band. You should have been like, do you know how to sing? I do. You could have really—

Can you imagine?

No, you really could have saved—

Megan, do you know how to sing? Oh. And then I know the way So the way I turned it, I said, I'm here with my friend Phineas.

She introduces Margot to Phineas, who Phineas has already done the Barbie song.

And we just haven't met yet. And I was like, do you— you want to meet my guy, my friend?

Love it.

So I go over to Phineas and I'm like, hey, do you want to meet Margot? And he's like—

We're in a band together.

Do you want to meet my bandmate, Margot?

He was probably mortified. I don't think so. This poor guy. I have put him through the wringer. But you know what? It's good for him.

It's good for him.

Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking if the movie is sold out before you show up. You drove across town, found parking, got in line, and now the person behind the counter is giving you that look. Sold out. Guess you're watching whatever starts in 10 minutes. Yeah, checking first is an excellent idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Allstate North American Insurance Company and Affiliates, Northbrook, Illinois. Okay, San Jose. Oh yeah.

Wow.

Tell me the vibe growing up in the '90s. How many siblings do you have? I know about your brother.

Yeah, I had one older brother.

Okay.

Just the two of us. I was the baby, but I was the older child. He was the super artsy free spirit, push the boundaries rebel addict, an intense personality. Also just loves to have— like, just will pull everyone in and then their whole heart will get wrapped up, and then they can't save that person, so then they fall apart.

Was he a good big brother? Did he look out for you?

He was a great big brother.

He was?

Yeah, he was really special. For context, he died in 2020.

I'm so sorry.

Thank you.

To add to an already great year.

Yeah. Well, in my career, I had the song Moral of the Story. It was like the first song of my career that kind of changed the trajectory.

It's on the Netflix movie All—

To All the Boys I Loved Before.

To All the Boys I Loved Before. Yes, this kind of breaks out.

Yeah, it was definitely the breakout moment. And that was in February. Then the song's taking off, we're booking radio tours. March hits, COVID. Then September 11th, my brother dies, heroin overdose.

Oh my goodness.

And it was just the most insane— which, this is an interesting— I'd be so curious to get y'all's advice about this topic. I'm going through a similar time of my career where there's one song taking off and there's this success. My body—

Is waiting for disaster.

I'm in, like, what is it called? Having a trauma response to it. My nerve endings are pretty fried. I think it's good that I'm catching you at this point in my cycle because I kind of feel as boosted up as I can.

Yeah.

But my nervous system is really shot right now.

I'm not surprised.

So what I do—

I would be guessing. I don't know you well enough, but my guess would be that this pattern actually predates 2020. In life, when things got good, did the floor fall out in childhood a lot? The floor fell out for me often, right? We were moving houses a lot. You know, things were happening a lot. So every time something was good, it was like, for how long? You just always thought, for how long?

That's what life is living with an addict, though. Always, for your whole life, is— it's a high. Their high is also your high because they're like happy and they're fun and they're like loving. And then there's a crash out at some point. So there's some like, okay, they're in this phase, so that means this other phase is about to come.

The luteal phase is around the corner.

Yeah, luteal's on its way.

They're ovulating, but they can't ovulate forever.

Yeah, but it's coming.

You grow to live with it.

Yeah. My dad was severely bipolar, which really hit when I was 8. So there was, like, a big shift then, which I've always said I'm so grateful that that 0 to 7, those are the most informative years. Those were actually fairly stable. And then 7 on, everything shattered. There was so much trauma that my little body didn't know what to do with all of it.

Yeah.

I've done so much therapy. for sure, and EMDR and trying to tap into it. I'm definitely the healthiest version now, today. But there is stuff that lives there that you're just ready for the rug to be pulled out.

Well, your brain is formatted. You create neural networks. You have a higher arousal setting. I have a higher arousal setting. There's only a lot of physiological things that you will continue for life.

Yeah.

You're likely more prone to an autoimmune disease. You know, there's a lot of predictable stuff.

My husband, has had no trauma, and I wouldn't wish any of it on him. But, you know, I'm explaining some of this to him, and it is really hard for him to totally wrap his head around that, because when he's experienced moments of excitement in his life, it's just excitement.

Right.

And I've actually met more people like that than not. And I think when I meet someone like you that can understand or relate, there is like a Connection there.

I think the thing we're all trying to get to is, yeah, the shoe's gonna drop. By the way, the shoe drops for everybody, right? Someone you love is gonna die. All these things are gonna happen.

Yeah.

I think what you and I can get stuck in is there was a period where we didn't have the agency to deal with the fallout of these other people, and we still think we don't. And the truth is, yeah, something's gonna go bad, but also you'll be able to handle it.

But I'm a—

You're living with the fear that you'll be incapable of handling whatever comes as if you're 7, but you're not.

Yeah.

You're not 7, you're 33. You're a gangster. You're prolific. You're creative.

I am a gangster.

You will handle whatever comes your way. So I think the thing is trying to right-size this fear of like, yeah, what's going to happen that I can't handle? But you can handle it. Can you talk to them? Yeah. It's just learning to recognize you're not.

What helps you recognize you're not 8? What helped you sort of reprogram?

I had a situation where my mom was newly dating again at 70 or whatever. She had had this wonderful husband and he passed and I adored him. And then all of a sudden there was a new boyfriend coming to my house to visit when she came to visit. And I first was like, no, you can't. How long have you been with this dude? No, I don't want a dude in my house. Right. And I had 3 or 4 days where I was just like, it was off the table. No, you can't bring a guy I've not met to my house. I have children, blah, blah, blah.

Yeah, fair.

And about 4 days went by and I was like, oh, you think you're 10 and if this guy comes and you don't want him to leave, he won't leave.

You have to protect—

You're an adult man who I'm sure physically can remove the guy. You're not in danger, right? Even if she's chosen wrong again and the pattern's here again, I'm not 8 anymore. And I called her back up and I was like, I'm fine, bring him. And if I want him to leave, I'm gonna tell him to leave.

Good for you.

It didn't go great, and I did end up talking to the guy.

Oh, great.

And so that was— that was—

That's such a bummer, Monica.

It was good proof for me that I was like, oh, right, I'm an adult that can take care of myself. Yeah, and if I don't like the guy, I'll tell the guy.

I've been saying the phrase, I am safe in the life I've created for myself, every morning.

Yeah, that helps.

That's helping.

Also, I think there's a little bit of— what's the phrase where you miss I am about to start my period, so I don't have a brain.

Oh, that's the worst.

Currently.

Those days.

It's a bad—

it's bad.

I got all the options here today.

You really did.

You're welcome.

I think what Dax said is like, yeah, this is life. Bad stuff will happen. That's inevitable.

Yeah.

But it's not because of the good thing. They're not tied together.

That was gonna happen anyways.

Yeah.

You just happen to have a good thing happening.

Bad things happen.

It's coincidental. Attribution error.

Ah, attribution errors.

Exactly.

Attribution error. It's not because you are—

look at you right before your period.

What if she started this moment? The flies show up.

Is it okay that I have my shoes up? Yeah.

But it's like decoupling those 2 things. Bad stuff happens, good stuff happens. They're not related.

That's really great. Decoupling is a good word for it.

Yeah.

I also think an additional thing that's likely on the table— so there's that thing, there's like, well, I won't be able to handle this thing. I'm so terrified of what's coming. I can feel something's coming. I'm not capable of handling a challenge, which you are. That's one issue. I think another one, which I suffer from, is I don't deserve this. I'm not worthy of this. I'm an imposter, and the universe is going to smite me immediately if I'm mistaken for being worthy of this.

We all are.

And that's the internal self-love part. And I hate to report what got me through that mostly is just having children. I hate to say, because I found such an identity and so much esteem in my role as a dad that I feel so worthy of all things now because I just found this bedrock of esteem for me. I know that's not for everyone, but for me, that's how it was.

That's really profound. There's always that. in the back. It's much more subconscious now. My conscious brain knows I'm great, and I feel it's a waste of my time to believe that I'm not worthy of what's coming.

And even more dangerous, if you think you're not worthy, you will prove you're not worthy.

Yeah, you like put your own limiter on yourself.

You'll put out a piece of shit somehow. Like, your brain, weird subconscious, will be like, Like, let's prove I'm right.

Yeah.

And then you'll make some shortcut that normally you wouldn't, or you do some inexplicable thing that only in retrospect you'd go, oh, I self-sabotaged to prove I was right, that I wasn't worthy of this.

I mean, I almost quit music altogether, had a pretty big mental nervous breakdown because it was sort of off the back of the moral of the story moment and my brother dying and all that trauma that I wasn't dealing with. And then, mind you, all the childhood stuff. That is dangerous to go near. So that just gets set aside as well. And then we got closer and closer to this big tour coming up. And every day we got closer, I started having panic attacks for the first time. Panic attacks are scary. You think you're dying.

Yep.

Have you experienced that?

I used to get them a lot. I haven't had one in a really long time.

What a horrifying— They're horrifying.

She's an overachiever. So, you know, when she's gonna have 'em, she's gonna have 'em all the time. Yep.

Every 4 minutes. Sometimes in the car, which is really fun.

No, not while you're driving.

Oh my God, truly.

Get a SoulCycle, gonna pass out and fall off a bike.

Yeah, it was awful. I mean, it was such a horrible period of time. I relate. It's so bad.

Yeah.

You do.

You feel like you're gonna die.

I understand.

You feel like something's really deeply wrong with you. I went to so many doctors. They're like, you have anxiety. I'm like, you don't understand. If you think what I have is anxiety, like, you're wrong. And it was.

It's born from anxiety, right? Did you see a therapist?

Yes, I started therapy. for the first time, that helped. And—

Whoa.

And I hate this answer because it's sort of an external thing, but I started nannying for them.

Not your kids being the answer to both of those things?

You wanna borrow 'em?

We're blinking.

Yeah.

I need to meet these kids.

I mean, the kids are deeply special, but it was more that I had stability.

Wow.

'Cause before that, I was working at SoulCycle, I was babysitting all the time, I was auditioning. I was like, what is my life?

Were you doing this at the time? Was this before Armchair?

Yeah, way, way. So yeah, this was 20— when did I start? I don't remember.

Well, Duff was born in '14, so probably '14.

Yeah, right around 2014 then.

Wow.

So yeah, I just had this job that I knew I went in the morning and I left, and I had more freedom.

Structure. Is that how you met?

Yeah, I started—

Well, we met socially, and then in that social connection, we found out she babysat.

I love that.

None of the kids died when she babysat.

They were thriving under my care.

They were on IVs.

Many. Yeah, they became so much smarter and funnier and cooler.

Darker.

Darker?

Yeah. Darker.

That's awesome.

I was giving them the tanning pad every night.

Wow.

Anyway, San Jose.

Yeah. When the bipolar episodes started, it's, I presume, destabilizing for everyone involved. It's a contagious condition in ways.

Yeah. You just start feeling like you have responsibility over it. Whatever you do is in control of their volatility.

You're trying to regulate them and keep them—

Yeah, whatever they need to make sure you're safe and your mom's safe and your brother's safe.

Do you have an autoimmune yet?

Not yet.

You know, it's so stressful.

Sort of bring this up to the nervous system thing and how much of this is psychosomatic, because my allergies are abnormally bad and feeling like I'm getting sick all the time. And I'm like, I'm good. I am healthy. This shouldn't be like this. It could totally be the start of an autoimmune thing, but the whole body keeps the score thing.

Yeah, yeah, right.

I haven't read the book, but you don't have to because it's pretty self-explanatory.

No need to. It's in the title.

Yeah.

Great title.

Yeah. I almost feel bad for him. Like, that title, he should have made it a little more elusive. Yeah.

Great book. I actually read it. It's a phenomenal book.

Ugh, Sam.

It has some critics now. There's like a wave of criticism about it. Yeah. But at any rate, I don't know how you're not an addict.

I know. I think that I got to see— so my dad, for all the wonderful things that he was and is, we don't speak. But he self-medicated. And I just saw between him and my brother's story, it took all the sparkly bits away from using. I'm surprised alcohol didn't ever become a problem.

Yeah.

For me, it's only just brought me closer to Margot Robbie.

Yeah. So that's a real asset, really.

I think that's just by the grace of God or Oprah or the universe.

Body chemistry, probably. It's literally just probably genetically.

Yeah.

You don't have it.

Yeah, because I'll start smoking and then I'll be like, I'm good, and then I cannot smoke. I do feel like that's rare.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's Kristen. When I met her, she smoked. And then 3 months went by, and I'm like, wow, I've never seen someone so effortlessly quit smoking cigarettes. And she goes, I haven't quit. And I go, you haven't had a cigarette in, like, 3 months? She's like, really? What the fuck is wrong with you? How could you not? All I would think about—

Maybe I'm like your daughter because I'm like her.

You also start doing piano and vocal lessons around the same time, I guess, the bipolar rises, because you're 8 when you start doing all that, right?

Yeah.

Is that a retreat?

Yeah, music definitely was a place to find something that was only mine.

You also can exhibit control. I put my finger here, this comes out.

Songwriting was such a novel— I get to process what's going on in my life through words that no one has to hear. I just wanted so badly for my family to be okay that they would have never known that I wasn't okay. I would have never expressed that I was hurting or not okay, or I didn't know what my favorite color was. Everything was so wrapped up in them. Yeah, there was this one small piece that was all mine, and that was writing. So I think that definitely shaped me for sure.

Yeah, this stuff can give you your best hobbies.

Your trauma?

Yeah, yeah, you can pick up some stuff that you end up loving for your life.

There's that healing that can come from it.

How were you getting validated in a way that would make you confident to try to get into Berkeley?

Mm, I don't know that I was. Things got really hairy my senior year of high school. There's stories that I think one day I'll be able to tell, but that don't fully belong to me, so I get nervous about sharing them. But our house was bombed 'cause my brother was affiliated with a gang, and then our dog got shot. Thing after thing after thing.

These are not just things. These are enormous, literally bombs.

Just literal bombs. Molotov cocktail to the back of our car. Oh, man.

Cortisol.

And that's gotta be another thing. My body is ready for trauma. I'm good in a crisis. You want me on your team.

I'll go further. I get high in a crisis.

100%.

Love it. Have to keep myself from searching it out.

Starting a crisis?

Or just, I see this shit happening over there, I want to run over there. I just want to be involved.

There is a little bit of maybe a savior complex of like, I'm gonna save you from your trauma because I know I can handle it.

Yeah, yeah.

I have years.

Yeah, training.

Of training.

Like you're a SEAL.

My husband's father was diagnosed with kidney cancer this past year, and I was like, ready and action, let me be— I'm gonna help you guys. And of course it's like, you gonna make the kidney cancer go away?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I wrote a song that I'm certain is going to chase this cancer out of your kidneys.

I've never considered that I get high from it, but I think there's ego in it for sure.

Well, if I could defend this or be more compassionate to us, again, the arousal setting got pinned. If your Molotov cocktail is fucking blasting off, right? So life can be a little agonizingly boring in a way. This is what the dopamine seeking is. It's like you can be suffering under peaceful, normal conditions, which is not your fault. It's your responsibility. You got to not get yourself into shit. But yeah, I feel very alive. All my senses work great. I'm plugged in. And that elevated state is pleasurable and a bit euphoric.

It's probably why I love being on stage. It's high stakes. My therapist was like, there's an amount of cortisol and adrenaline that's released in the body on stage that's the same as going to war.

Surely.

Your body doesn't know the difference between these fans screaming at you and you're fired at.

Yeah. Yeah. Another gear kicks in and you were trained for this. So this is like—

yeah.

If people are coming to my show and they want to meet me or come backstage, it has to be before. Because if it's after, if it's right after, I'm still in the adrenaline high. But if it's like even 30 minutes after, I crash.

Yeah.

Right.

Which is not— You just got off the battlefield.

Sustained. I'm going to have to figure that out for this next run that I'm planning.

You're allowed to take some time after. Why? You don't owe anyone anything. You're allowed to take the minute to relax.

And he's staring you into the eyes like, really? You're like, am I?

Are you positive?

You're allowed to have rules.

This is the first time this is occurring to me.

Yeah, they come before.

That's it. I just got off the road with Benson Boone, who was and is the nicest person you'll ever meet in your life.

Really?

Yeah. If you ever get the chance to have him on—

He's a human sparkler, right? Connect us. We would love to have him on. I would do a backflip off this table.

And he would—

He has a beautiful physique.

He's very handsome.

Even when you're not ovulating.

Even when you're not ovulating, he's handsome.

He's luteal phase resistant.

I was— well, I was in my luteal phase both times. So I was on the road with him for 2 weeks in the luteal phase. Then I got off the road, and then I, you know, follicular ovulating, and I was like, man, I was on tour with a handsome guy. And then we had one last show of the tour. He had to cancel a show. And so, I came in for the remake of that one. I was back on my luteal, so I couldn't appreciate—

Wow. Yeah.

Us men have no clue. We're like, boy, there was no rhythm. I guess my hair looked bad that day. When you're a young man, you have no fucking awareness of that, the luteal phase. And you're just like, wait, why was— she was giving me a lot of rhythm last time I saw her. And now, what happened? Did I get disfigured? What has happened?

That is so funny. I'm sorry for you guys. We have no clue. Yeah, that's really bad.

You have so much compassion.

I am so, so sorry for you guys. But so, before he goes on, On stage, he prays. I can't speak for him. I don't know if he's so religious anymore, because he came backstage and he invited me to, like, the prayer circle.

Oh, fun.

First we dance. Everyone's twerking, and then we huddle up and we pray. And it was the most sweet, kind of transformative, grounding thing.

Ritual.

And I thought, I think I'm gonna start praying before I go on stage.

Sure. I do my mantra.

Really cool.

So my prayer is the equivalent. I meditate.

He's not allowed to tell us.

I do Transcendental Meditation. But you have a mantra that's given to you, and that's what you say over and over again in your head while you're meditating.

I don't want you to tell me if you don't want to tell me, obviously. But why don't you share it?

I have no idea. But when it was given to me, I was instructed to not ever tell anyone what my mantra is.

By someone?

By the instructor of Transcendental Meditation.

It's not like a sentence. It's like a—

It's a word that makes no sense to me.

It's a sound.

It's like or something.

What if I got it?

Calliope?

You're quite far off, but yes, if anyone would get it, it would be you.

Calliope. Yeah, what if it's Calliope?

Should we bore with our story?

You go.

I'm traveling, and then I'm talking to Monica. She goes like, I've been being so weird in my apartment. I'm like, what's going on? She's like, I'm just fucking singing some bizarre song out loud. And I go, sing it to me. She's like, no, I'm not gonna sing it to you. Uh, whatever. We finish up our I hang up. I call her back in, like, 2 minutes, and I said, is this the song?

I think I said the words are— didn't I say the words?

Oh, you said, I have made a song around xanthan gum.

Yeah, around the word xanthan gum.

And I go, sing it to me. And she's like, no, I'm not going to do that. I hang up, and all of a sudden it occurs to me. I call her back, and when she answers, I go, xanthan gum, da da da da da da da, xanthan gum.

And she goes, ah!

She screams so loud. It was so weird. And then got paranoid. She's like, you installed my TV. Can you hear? Did you?

Yeah. I was like, did you do something with my Sonos where you can hear me in my apartment?

So you're just that connected now after all these years.

I mean, it's a lot. How long ago did this happen?

Had you been sort of working together for a while?

It was wild. I think circling back to what you said, I was going to say it earlier, but I think we've known each other in another life. Yeah.

Oh, I feel—

I can totally feel that. If I believed in other lives, I would, I would co-sign.

Like, there's just like, oh yeah, I've known this person for way longer than I've actually known him.

Yes.

Yeah.

What is that?

And then sometimes I'm like, ooh, I wonder who you'll be next time.

You know, I like it in theory.

I think we all have some things that are inexplicable, and I think some explanations for people seem most salient. Yours happens to be like, for you, that just really resonates. Like, yeah, I feel like I've been here before. And again, our friend Phineas, every time I leave him, I'm like, no, he's 51. He's definitely my age, or he might even be 55.

If past lives is real, this is his 7th round. 7 billionth time.

He's been around.

It's his dad's 80th round. That's the most mature person I've ever met.

So cool. Yeah.

Okay, but back to Berklee.

Oh, yeah.

How does one get into Berklee? You submit, I presume?

I auditioned. You have to audition.

You fly to Boston and audition?

I think I drove to San Francisco.

Okay.

They have teachers that come to different cities. Did my audition. I think I sang an original song. So it was like, I'm a singer and I'm a songwriter. And then I sang a Norah Jones. I sang I Don't Know Why.

One of my favorites of all time. She sang for us as well.

She did?

Highlighted.

Wait, you've had her on?

Yeah.

Early days.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I'm definitely gonna go listen to that after this.

Yeah.

I love her.

And she came and sang Christmas Jingle.

No, that's right.

I got a partial scholarship from that audition, and I might have to owe that to her.

I think you owe it to yourself, but yeah, a little bit of both.

When you go to Boston, A, this is an enormous cultural shift between San Jose and Boston. You also have the weather. You're also now not around the chaos. Is the experience dreamy? How do you change in those 4 years?

I think it was the most rapid changing of my entire life. I don't know that I've experienced that level of zhuzh. Since then. Yeah, before or since.

Yeah, like, so who would you say you entered as, and then who did you leave as?

I entered as a very scared, sad, frightened, insecure, tiny person. I was really terrified. I had a vocal coach who just was begging me to find pride in my voice. and that I could do this. And it's funny 'cause she came to a show when I was headlining, and she's like, look at you with all that confidence.

Wow.

She saw me in probably my most, like, naked mole rat, scared state. I love when she comes to shows 'cause it's, like, such a callback to that.

It's special.

I left Berklee. I moved to Nashville for songwriting. That first year in Nashville was still a little insecure.

One of my questions is, why Nashville coming out of Berkeley when you could also probably go to LA or you could go to New York?

All my friends were going to New York or LA. I knew that starting my career at ground zero in those cities was going to eat me alive. Nashville, at that time, I still think to an effect, still is this way, it's a reputation town. Like, you make enough friends, you show people that you're talented, you're a good hang. You just gotta be a good hang in Nashville. Nashville.

I also think, would you agree Nashville has a journeyman structure in the old sense?

Earn your stripes kind of.

You learn your craft. There are rungs of ladders you can apply for and move up, whereas here it's like, I don't know, be nothing and then have a viral hit and be huge. I don't know what the intermediate steps are here, whereas there, there's a little bit more of a journeyman.

I would not recommend go straight to LA if you're a dreamer and you have ambitions of being It's hard. LA, for me, it started to warp, at least when I was here. I've lived here for 7 years, and it started to warp. I probably was not in the right circles at the right time, but my story of why I was doing it, because I was around people that were doing it for the wrong reasons. I just saw Sally Fields did a little quick interview on the red carpet, and she was like, if you want to be an actor, to be rich and famous, get the hell out of here. That can't be the point because you're gonna get knocked down too many times and you're not gonna get back up. And I think my why of why I wanted to be a music artist and a songwriter started to get a little bit warped.

Yeah, more about the result and less about the experience or process.

Yeah, and so I've kind of come back.

Well, to Sally's point, anything short of rich and famous, then nothing's enjoyable. Whereas if you love acting and you're in a play, like, look, I was at the Groundlings performing for free. I couldn't have been happier, right? Like, I was doing a show every Sunday. I was like, oh, I love this. If the only result you're interested in is rich and famous, like, then nothing can be enjoyed until rich and famous.

And then that's not enjoyable.

Yeah, that used to not be cool. Like, when I was a kid, wanting to be rich and famous was gross. You had to pretend you didn't want Yeah, if you wanted that, you had to pretend. Yeah, you would be a hipster or whatever.

Yeah, yeah.

Tell me if you think I'm wrong, but I feel like I see more kids now interested in, I want to be an influencer, I want to be a movie star, I want to be XYZ, to be rich and famous. Where did we lose the plot in the last— do I sound like an old fucking lady?

No, I think—

Right now? Like, the kids—

You sound like the oldest lady we've ever interviewed.

I sound like an old lady?

No, I think you're absolutely right.

Well, look, no, what I'll push back on is like everyone has always wanted to be rich and famous, period, throughout time.

I think that might be your experience and you might be projecting.

I'm just saying no kid in their hometown when they imagine being Margot Robbie or Timothée Chalamet is not thinking, yes, sign me up, that looks fun. But I think what's happened is we have had a shift in the industry, which is the only way to get that in the past was to have become a really good actor or a really good singer. But then we had— and I love her, so this is no shade— but then we had the Paris Hilton, Kim Kardashian phenomenon, and these people became billionaires. So now there was a new avenue to being rich and famous that didn't require a ton of training as an actor or a singer. And that's fine. So I don't fault anyone. It's like everyone wanted to be rich and famous, but the hurdle to become that was pretty significant. are avenues now to be rich and famous that don't require, to me, a terribly objective skill set.

Talent. Yeah.

Like, if you're hot and you look like you're having a great time everywhere you go, that could be valuable. And by the way, good for them.

Maybe it is valuable.

Good for them. I got no beef with that at all.

That's so— rich and famous though, I think when you're young and you're seeing, you know, whatever—

Timmy Shandling.

Yeah, on the COVID and you're like, oh my God.

It seems so glamorous.

It seems so glamorous, but really what's It's like everyone loves them. I want to be a person that everyone loves.

I want to be enough.

And that's what rich and famous is getting you to believe.

Is a proxy for.

Yes, exactly. But it's really like everyone in the whole world loves this person and I want that.

And you're definitely naive about what that is because then you're Bieber at the wedding and you know everyone's thinking about you and that's very uncomfortable.

Well, that's crashing into a new national— I always wanted to be as successful as Bon Iver, Justin Vernon.

Oh my God, he's incredible.

He can go to a Trader Joe's, but he can also sell out an arena.

And get a great table at a restaurant. There are things you want.

Skip the line. So I was a competitive gymnast for 8 years.

Oh wow.

When I was a kid.

Oh wow.

Homeschooled for it, was going to the Olympics, saw the Olympics, wanted to go to the Olympics.

Yeah.

But it was from such a place of, I want to be great.

Yes.

And I want to be Are you watching Lanterns? No. Okay.

Well, it's great. But there's something that happens. It's not a spoiler, I don't think.

Sounds like it's gonna be.

There's a eulogy that's being given. It's not a spoiler.

I love a eulogy.

It's a eulogy that's being given that's written by the person who's died. They've pre-written it.

Okay?

Lovely.

Whoa.

Yes. And the last line is, I hope I mattered. And yeah, I was watching with my friend. We were both like, oof. It really distills it down.

It's all we want.

We just want to matter.

It's just, who are you going to matter to? Do you need to matter like Dolly mattered, or do you want to matter to your kids?

My therapist phrased it another way, which is very similar, but he's like, do you think you exist? I mean, it's weirdly that deep. Like, if I'm not observed and people aren't witnessing it, do I exist? You have this deep desire to know you exist. You're not even sure you exist. If you see— if you feel invisible, you're in 8th grade and no one says hi to you all day long, it can feel like you don't exist. And that's heartbreaking.

I think that's the whole reason why we want to find love in life, because you want someone to be a witness to your life. It's a little selfish. I buy into that fully.

They help you know you exist.

Yeah. I want to be on the porch. porch wrinkled up with my husband. And I want him to know what I looked like now and what I sounded like and the changes I was feeling and to have experienced all of it.

You're telling a story. You're creating a story. The story is your life. If no one reads that book, it's a little bit heartbreaking.

You exist.

Yeah.

That's why I love— I have a fascination with cemeteries.

Okay. You performed at the Hollywood Forever Cemetery. That must have been a It's very cool.

It's cool to see, like, a sea of heads and then a sea of tombstones. That was a really beautiful—

But why do you like them? Just because it's a reminder of life?

I just like to feel small in, I think, a healthy way.

In a humility way.

Yeah. Like the ocean. I think we make ourselves so grand. It's funny because we hold multitudes. We're like, I'm small, but I'm important. But I love looking at a tombstone that's like 1780 to 18-whatever. And I just imagine the adventures that they had and the laughs that they had. And were they funny? Were they talented? Did they have kids? Were they someone's brother or sister? And then you create this little life, and their story's over. It's done. And that's going to be me.

Yeah, exactly.

It's going to be me tomorrow.

I don't like that.

Okay, not tomorrow, but—

But I know what you mean. It's a blip.

50 years or 130, it's short.

It is.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We would sometimes drive to Toronto from Detroit, my family, my mom and my brother and my sister. I would see these apartment buildings. There's so many windows. I'd be in the backseat of my mom's Pinto, and I'd go, it's almost incomprehensible. Every one of those windows has a me in it that feels very important.

Yeah.

And then a bunch of other— my mom's in there, my brother's in there. It's overwhelming.

It's overwhelming.

It's overwhelming.

We're so small. But we really don't think about it. We're thinking about it right now because we're lucky enough to have this conversation, but we're gonna leave here in an hour from now. We're gonna forget that there's a bunch of people in those windows living there. Yeah.

And they all are having important lives, and they're the thoroughfares. Yeah. Okay.

Wow. We're really doing it.

I wanna— I love this.

I'm having a nice time. Oh, good.

We try to provide one.

Yeah.

We aim to.

This has been like a real port in the storm. This week has been fucking insane. And then the music video of it all. Like I said, my nervous system's— but seeing this on my calendar has brought me so much joy.

Oh, wonderful.

I knew it would be nice.

I have a question about the financials of when you moved to Nashville and you start— you're doing a couple different things that I assume are paying the bills, which is you're starting to sing on other people's stuff, and then you're also writing. Like, you write a song with Demi Lovato.

For her.

In the acting world, we know it's like, if you get one national commercial this year, you'll be okay. You're gonna be able to make your rent. We know what one needs to do to survive here. But how does one cobble together, and which things buy you more time, basically? Like, when you write that song for Demi Lovato, do you go like, oh, okay, I have this chunk of You're trying to get a publishing deal.

As a writer, that's your first stop.

Goal. Okay.

Your goal. I was making coffees, barista, and I was in every writing room that would take me. I was in, like, 2 sessions a day for months at a time, and then would work at night.

And were you learning a ton in those? Or were you too distracted trying to prove yourself?

Boot camp. I was still insecure and—

well, no.

I was insecure and trying to prove myself, yes.

Yeah, sure. I would be.

Both.

I'm asking because I would've missed a lot of lessons trying to prove to them I deserved to be there, even though I didn't think I did.

Yeah, trying to come up with an amazing idea. Nashville, more so than LA, at least at the time, they want to teach you. You're in writing rooms with people who are very yes, and... So you'll say an idea, and then they'll piggyback off you. That's why I loved writing with Phineas. 'Cause he is such a yes, and writer. I've had the pitfall of being a but so, you know? 'Cause I don't know if that's good enough, or I'll put a period at the end of something. So I definitely was learning a lot from those Nashville writers. I had no business being in some of those rooms. And honestly, I only got in them because I was a good hang. You're gonna like this girl. She's, you know—

Yeah, fun to be around.

Fun, or whatever. That got me far. further than my talent did. And then the talent crossed over into the next thing. But yeah, so the financials were tricky for a bit. I signed my first record deal and publishing deal 2019, '18. And then I was able to just do that.

And then the progression is you put out like some singles and then you put out an EP with 4 songs and then you put out a second EP. Finally, then you do a full studio album. Yeah. And the first one was— of the first 3, because now your 4th one's about to come out.

October 16th.

Yes.

Like tomorrow.

I'm so excited. Yeah, so exciting.

The first one, I would imagine you're pumped, right? The first one probably shockingly does well for you.

Yeah. Everyone says that you write your first album your whole life.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, it's all leading up to that one.

Yes. You have your entire life to draw from.

And then you have no idea what to fucking write about after that.

Yeah. Second season of a show is similar. It's like, ooh, now what? Yeah. Greenlight.

So, did you spin out when it came time, like, okay, well, let's follow it up?

Yeah.

Was that so stressful?

I think— man, and I'm talking about him way too much. He really is such a big part of my life. But Phineas was on Till Forever Falls Apart, which was on that album. And that was a part of— I got a follow-up moral of the story with a great song. Wrote that, sent it to him, said, do you want to sing on this?

And that's the song you guys played at the wedding. It's so good.

It's so awesome.

It's really special. Also, I remember being a kid when I first started writing and dreaming of a duet. Wouldn't it feel amazing to be on stage with someone else? And we're having this magical movie. You know, I'm picturing it in my head as a movie. And I get to do that so often. I'm living this very special So big vortex of energy and hormones, and it's awesome. It's the coolest thing.

Yes. Then you guys, you do the favors with him.

Yep.

I'm just gonna flag Home Sweet Home. No, that's my song on that album, The Dream. It's so funky and fun.

A little disco-y, huh?

Yes, there's some hints. That one is a bit Bee Gees-y, and then, um, Stop the Wedding's very ABBA-y in a lovely Anyway.

Big inspiration for me.

To the degree that you've seen the play and everything, and you've watched the— my children watch the movie quite often.

Oh, yeah. Like once a year.

Mamma Mia.

Mamma Mia.

Mamma Mia. For the listener, Mamma Mia.

Yeah. Meryl Streep. Oof. I don't really get— I don't know if you get starstruck. I mean, you see stars all the time on this couch.

They come through a lot.

But Meryl Streep?

Yeah, forget it.

I'd fall over and die.

Oh, my God.

Sometimes people say we look alike.

Yeah.

The aforementioned Without a Paddle, that was the first movie I was ever in. First time they sent me away to go do all these different things you have to do when you're in a studio movie. And one was go to this thing, Show West. And I come out, we're all on stage with all these other movies that are coming out, and I bounce out the back door to have a cigarette. And fucking Meryl Streep out there banging a dart.

No.

Yeah, she and I killed a fucking dart. And I'm like, one year ago, I had I had been trying to get a role for 9 years and didn't get one. And then somehow I'm now back in—

Did she know who you were?

No. Fuck no.

Yeah, no.

That's okay. That's great.

I'll learn. Smoking a cigarette with her?

That's so cool! Yeah, it was pretty rad.

That's your best story.

Yeah.

Wow.

Pull that one out more.

I was keeping it in the back pocket. I can't believe I haven't heard that one.

I know.

I'm running out. I'm running out. There's only a couple left.

I've had chats with some pretty cool people, but no one as cool as her.

God, I should start smoking.

I will ask you, when you meet John Canada— I just— this name is too much for me.

It's crazy.

How does someone end up with the name Canada? I'm Shepherd. Uh, my family apparently at one point herded animals. Clearly Shepherd.

I think it comes from Kennedy. O'Kennedy. They're Irish.

Okay.

And I think maybe Maybe someone wrote it down wrong when they came over.

Okay, great.

So O'Kennedy became Canada. Kennedy, Canada. So really, I'm kind of a Kennedy.

Wow.

If you really stretch it.

One of the many. Yeah, if you really stretch it.

What does John Canada have that makes you willing to give marriage a second shot?

I love that.

Well, I mean, I could lay So many things. The best thing, everyone is in his circle. I'm a very small circle. Tiny, tiny. If you have permission in, then you are very, very important to me. Sacred. He has this selflessness to him and this compassion to him that he just— all walks of life, whoever you are, just pulls them in and makes them feel seen, feel heard, That's nice. Feel understood. I don't know how he does it. The aforementioned non-trauma.

Yeah.

Well, I was gonna say, he's not worried people are going to be liabilities.

They're not gonna hurt him.

Yeah.

All my compassion and my empathy has come from my trauma. So I'm like, where does this get born of? I think I'm a really kind person. He makes me look kind of fucked up.

Like a real piece of shit.

I like the idea of our kids Kids being able to have that balance of a little bit of a hard-ass mom and then this guy who's just always gonna listen and be like, whatever you have for me, I'm here. And it's really sweet. I think that's his best thing. And then again, back to the past lives thing.

I don't know.

I looked in his eyes. I looked at him and I thought, you look like my Whoa. Ooh. Like, my children are gonna look like you.

Oh, wow.

The moment I met him.

Wow, wow, wow.

That's crazy.

It's ovulation time today.

I know.

I know.

Get it over here.

He's flying in today.

Okay. He said he wanted to wait.

I know. He's gonna be in the music video.

Don't wait.

Don't wait.

You have all these stories about how you won't be able to do the thing you want to do, and Chris and I, our careers both got way, way better Okay. Magically. We're like, I don't know how this is gonna work, and then there's some kind of magic that happens.

I needed to hear that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think I'm on the same page. What I'm not gonna do is let my success get in the way of my greatest dream, which is to be a mom.

There you go.

But I also really want to go on tour next year.

Yeah, you'll go on tour. Kristen shot 6 movies. She was pregnant. She's nursing. She's— you know, you do it.

Also, there's this stigma with being a lady that the minute you have the baby, it's like your fault. It's on the downside of your career. I'd love the trajectory to be a continuation of Up. I think you guys might be outliers.

No, I can point to Natalie Portman. I can point to so many people that you're just not aware that they—

Had kids at all?

Yeah.

So many people have kids that you don't know have kids.

Yeah.

It is different acting world because you can kind of disappear for a a while. It's worse because you're disappearing.

No, it's worse. Your character isn't pregnant. She's working as a consultant. She's supposed to be a single per— like, she's super pregnant. It's harder. You're allowed to be pregnant. You can be, you can be a pop star who's pregnant.

You can hide. Then they do when people are working, like hide.

But you don't even need to. You don't need to hide.

She's saying you can be—

you singing this song with a big baby bump is radical. Who doesn't want to see It's gonna be so cute. Yes! There you go! I'm so excited!

Yeah, John Canada is also very handsome.

Oh, wow.

The video is like this old vintage 1960s dating game show.

Ooh, fun!

And we need all these, like, hot male contestants.

Oh, look at you getting ass as a hot guy.

No, I'm the janitor that finds the—

Oh, we were gonna ask him to be the hot janitor.

Yeah, yeah, the old pervy host kissing all the contestants on the lips.

You're like, I have an idea for my character.

You want me to be—

Does that work for this song?

Yeah, I'm so sorry you can't make it that day.

So I just want to ask, obviously you're here to promote The Girl of Your Dreams, which comes out October 16th.

Well, I'm here to talk to you.

I know you are, but—

That's my foot in the door.

But your project that's forthcoming is the album The Girl Is this the first time— I'm assuming it would be really radical to already have a single that's totally working before the album comes out.

It does not suck. It's definitely a vote of confidence. I also kind of reserved myself that this would be my last record if people didn't like it, because I really loved it, and I know that it's my best work. This is the best I've ever brought to the table. from my voice and what I'm singing, but also the writing. And the producer I worked with, Noah Conrad, he also produced Moral of the Story, and he's at his best. I mean, he is so unbelievably talented. Talk about yes, and. And I just know that this is my best. So if my best doesn't cut it, then I'm like, all right, we're gonna pivot.

Hold on.

I gotta totally disagree with this.

I love that email.

Legit, listen.

I'm not saying a thing. That's advice to other people.

We just interviewed Guillermo del Toro.

Ugh.

There isn't a more creative volcano on planet Earth. Tons of these movies that were fucking absolutely brilliant, no one saw. If he would've been like, well, I did Pan's Labyrinth and it didn't make $600 million, so I guess I'm in the wrong business. And this, by the way, this contradicts what you just said, which is like, if rich and famous is the goal, then get the fuck outta the business. Making great albums that you're proud of is the business.

Making your art.

I think it's like, And I keep paying the bills with it.

Right. Well, John Canada's gonna, you know, he's gonna have to help you work, worry about that.

He does have his master's in accounting.

Well, there we go.

That's a reliable job.

That's a far better backup plan than either of us. Yeah.

And by the way, my grandma loves that fact. Yeah, that's a good backup if you can marry him.

Reasonable man. Sensible man.

Sensible man. He's a drummer in a band.

I just read this Instagram. I was thinking about this on the toilet today. You see these things on Instagram, and even if you recognize at the moment this probably isn't scientific, it's stuck in your head forever and you will eventually think it was scientific. So I read this thing recently that they IQ test on musicians and that drummers are the smartest across the board.

Wow.

From all the musicians. And again, I can't imagine how robust this scientific study was, but it's now in my head and will be for life. So he's probably brilliant because he's a drummer.

He's very smart.

There you go.

Yeah.

The one more bit of data.

I can't add it to the study.

I love that. He's like some crazy percentile of his class.

Okay. There you go. And he's drawn to the drums. They were pointing out something about rhythm, like something about time. There's some mental gymnastics.

Well, your brain is doing 2 things at once for the drum, right?

Yeah.

It's like the people who can—

Yeah.

Which I'm not even doing right right now.

Yeah, I can do that. I think the hardest one is this one.

Oh, yeah.

Concentric circles that go the opposite way.

Did I do it?

I can't tell.

Oh, but then you keep going?

You're doing it. You're doing it. That's a great— see, Monica's going like this.

Shut up! Oh, damn it.

She's about to start her period and you're—

Yeah, you're in your—

and I'm ovulating.

Yeah, well, you got a little skeddy wumpus there.

For real.

But yeah, that's a hard one. Wow.

I can't do it.

Do you make all your guests do this?

No, you're the first. Again, I've got 4 tricks left.

Wait, so going back to that mood now, I would've quit thing. I don't think I'd put as much stake into it. I just signed my first major record deal for this album, and it was off the back of my biggest collaboration project with Finneas, a band. There was just this hype and momentum that was setting up this record for commercial success. And if all of that momentum and the best writing that I've ever done didn't sell, then I was screwed. And I think that's what happened. sort of materialize in a commercial way. There is so much to this job that I hate, and that I am unwilling to continue doing for not commercial success.

When you walk into the morning radio show in Pittsburgh, the fucking shock jocks are in there.

The gotcha! Yeah.

You can see them, like, trying to figure out who just walked in.

They're trying to get you to call the most famous person in your phone.

It's all It's all terrible.

It's miserable. And I don't like to travel. I'm a homebody. I'm a touring musician who's a homebody. It doesn't always go super well together. I love being on stage, but the best place in the world is the good spot on my couch. And I would just love to be there all the time.

Yes.

I am very loud and boisterous and goofy, but so much of me loves solitude and quiet. And my life as the musician and artist Ash is loud. And I will happily sacrifice things that I don't like to do for all the wonderful parts of this job. They'll still make you do the shit you don't want to do.

Sure.

As a failure, maybe less. You're not on the top radio station, right? You're doing some dogshit radio thing. People are still trying to gotcha. They're still throwing you on a bus. Maybe it's a Sprinter van now. I followed Lewis Capaldi behind his tour bus in my Saturn Ion.

Nice.

For weeks, driving behind him on tour. And it was when he was doing, like, the Troubadour. It was 250, 500-cap rooms. I've been doing this for so long.

Yeah. Yeah.

That I'm exhausted, and I don't want to keep doing it if I can't have—

The reward.

The reward.

I get it.

So that's more what I was— I needed to verbally process that with you because it does sound kind of like you're a dick when you're like, if this didn't work, doesn't work, I'm out of here. And I don't feel that way.

It can sound self-protective. Yeah, that's what I would not call it.

You're already cocking in me.

Yeah, yeah, because I have it.

Game recognize game.

Dude, my movie didn't open, I quit directing, and I started this. Thank God this worked out. But yeah, I relate. I'm like, I'm not gonna kill myself for 2 fucking years and take all these notes from the studio and then have it fucking not open and I'm gone I don't get to see my family. Yeah. But had this not happened, I also should have just kept directing because I'm proud of the things I've directed. If I have the opportunity to do it, I should do it because I love doing it.

Are you doing more directing these days?

I can't now. We do 162 episodes of this a year, so there's no way I can do anything other than this job. But it's a good fucking job.

Do you both identify as extroverted? When a conversation is over, Are you pretty tired or are you energized by it?

I guess it depends on the conversation.

Oh, the person.

It depends on the person.

Yeah. Yesterday we left.

Oh, I was like—

We were floating up.

Yeah. I was like, I can't believe we got to do that. With Guillermo?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's like to get to meet a human.

That frequency.

Yes.

It's like, oh, I can't believe we got to talk to someone like that.

In your lifetime, if you, in your entire life, you sat next to someone like him on an airplane and got to spend 2 hours.

Not because of who he is in the world, because of— Who he is as a person is stunning.

His essence, yeah. His frequency.

Stunning. Stunning, yeah.

So, yeah, sometimes it's like, ah! And then sometimes you're like, and it's nap time.

Time for bed, and it's nap time. Yeah. And it's nap time.

But we're also both— I don't know what the word is, but I don't wanna say addicted to work, but I love working.

I love to work.

A big piece of my identity, and I think yours, is I am very industrious.

Hard worker.

Yes, I'm a hard worker. That's an admirable quality that I want.

Which has gotten us all into so much trouble. Of course.

Sure, sure. But compared to the other approach I'd take—

I'd rather be a hard worker.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Look, it's not an option. I'm not at peace being lazy. I try it all the time. I convince myself all the time I can do it. And then 3 weeks into it, I'm like, no, no, we're not here to watch the fucking clouds go by. We've got limited time. We must do everything there is to do on this planet. Let's go.

Intense.

I'm intense.

You're an intense fella.

Well, ask, what song do you think you're gonna play?

I feel like, I mean, Stop the Wedding is the song.

That's the anthem of—

That's having the moment.

And I will say—

That's nice.

We met at a wedding.

We did.

And it was awesome.

I bet it was.

So it's on record, I've only played this on piano once. Right.

Okay. And you have a very bad cold.

Yes.

And you got terrible news on the way here.

Oh no. And you have diarrhea.

I am fighting a legal battle right now. Let's get into that. Just kidding.

Do you really have diarrhea?

I wish.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Not today.

Okay. Yeah, let's just send it. Yeah, okay. Yeah, I know, it's nice to do this song. That— the song's kind of like changing my life right now.

Yes.

So we'll pay it tribute. I found a secret note burned after reading this. It's supernatural, the feeling sinking in. This isn't cold feet, these aren't fireworks. The sky is menacing, and that's an idea.

Nice work.

He thinks he's velvet smooth. I've fallen for the act. I'm in the other room and seeing through the cracks. The voices in my head are screaming, no, no, you don't have to waste your night and wear your heart out. The warning signs are flashing. I should now stop the wedding. Stop the wedding. Even though the table's set, the guests are waiting, you can burn the dress and run away. Stop the wedding. Stop the wedding. You've been such a good girl, talking like you You should, girl. Well, keep avoiding disappointing in your white satin heels. You know how you really feel. You don't have to waste your night and wear your heart out. The warning signs are flashing now. Stop the wedding. Stop the wedding. Even though the tables set, the guests are waiting. You can burn the dress and run away. Stop the wedding. Stop the wedding. Stop the wedding. Stop the wedding. If your heart is dreading, hands are sweating while the sun is setting, you'll be getting out. Stop the wedding, stop the wedding. If your heart is dreading, hands are sweating while the sun is setting, you'll be getting out.

Out.

You don't have to waste your life and wear your heart out. The heart inside The signs are flashing now. Stop the wedding. Ah, stop the wedding. Even though the table's set, the guests are waiting. You can burn the dress and run away. Stop the wedding.

Ah, stop the wedding. Oh, girl, you let it rip!

Oh, you let it rip!

That was beautiful!

Sorry, I'm just wailing at you.

That's our preference. I got a little welled up. I get— oh, it's so good.

So good.

Thanks, guys.

I loved meeting you at the wedding, and I loved this interview. I'm so glad, and I feel very grateful that you sang for us. That was really beautiful.

This was fantastic.

And I want everyone to listen to every single track on The Girl of Your Dreams starting October 2nd.

And go back, listen to all the albums.

Yes, yes, yes.

Thanks, guys.

Yes, yes. Take the journey that we're currently on.

Yeah.

All right.

Adore you.

Oh, love you guys.

He's an expert, but he makes mistakes all the time. Thank God Monica's here. She's gonna let him have the facts. I have a little treat for you.

What is it?

I want to start this with an audio clip.

Okay.

This was found on Kristen's computer today.

Okay.

And I think you're gonna enjoy it.

Mama made me.

But how did you get in Mommy's tummy?

Yeah, how'd you get in there? Mama, I didn't get in there, I got made in there. Right, but how, how did you get in there?

What do you think you grew from? You know, like a tree has to grow from a seed, right?

A blood cell. No, an egg.

An egg.

A little tiny blue thing in that, um, electric coil. It's coming in the egg. connects to the ball in the middle, and then the string on the other side—

string—

connects to my tummy.

That's the umbilical cord.

That's you too.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. What made you is your umbilical cord? Is that what you're telling me? Okay, so what part did I have to do with this?

You fed me.

You fed me.

You don't have a question, Dad. You snuggled me.

Oh no, but yes, I've done all those things, but that's after you were born.

How do you—

what role do you think I played in you being born? Do you think I was a part of that?

You cut our umbilical cord. She's rude.

I give you that. You're right.

She's doing good. You think Mommy just grew you?

You think I thought about it and I was like, I want to be pregnant? And then poof, I was. How do you think you got in there? How would she know this? Daddy put me in.

Daddy put me in.

So— Seriously?

Yeah.

Oh my God.

So Mommy's body makes eggs and Daddy's body makes sperm, and my sperm swam up Mommy's uterus.

You swam, made Mama's, um, little ball make a baby.

So I said, hey, little—

Thank you for making me, Daddy.

You're welcome.

Thank you for making me, Daddy. Oh my God, that's the thank you I was fishing for. You made Daddy make the sweet angel. Wait, wait, um, what made— what made me make an egg and sperm?

Mommy's egg and Daddy's sperm.

Your sperm made a great baby. Oh, who, Lincoln?

No, me. Oh, you.

This woman made 2 great babies. Oh, great babies.

You're lucky. I'll say it, I think you made the 2 best babies ever made.

Daddy, I mean Mama, say hello to my farty.

Say hello to your fart?

Wow.

When your fart arrives, I'll greet it appropriately.

Gordon, you smell it?

Oh well, I do now. It's— now I'm aware of it.

Things have really gotten Oh my God.

She said you made a sweet angel and she was referring to herself.

I thought Lincoln said that about Delta.

No, Delta said it about herself.

And then she said a great baby about herself. Oh, she did. You did make a sweet angel.

Her little voice came from a blue cord.

Listen, she got a lot right and I am impressed.

It made me miss her at that age.

Thank you, Daddy. They all ended up thanking you. God.

Well, no, they already had a lot of gratitude for Mom.

I didn't hear a thank you in there for Mom.

Well, that's what preluded the conversation. That's what we were saying. Do you know how this all comes about?

Mama made me.

Oh, my God. Isn't it?

That's her voice.

She's like cartoon character/kid on a Disney show, but in real life.

Is it a video or is it just audio?

It's a video, but it's like they don't know they're being recorded. I don't know where I'm being recorded either. Kristin just set the phone down, so it's just like a close-up of a blanket. But then you hear this funny conversation. Yeah, I wish I could see Delta's face.

I know.

And Lincoln's sweet face.

The little babies.

Yeah, they were 5 and 6 in that conversation.

Wait, seriously?

You cut the umbilical cord. However she says umbilical cord.

She really—

they—

I, I I'm impressed. And you guys were really just expecting them to know about sperm and eggs.

Well, I don't think it was the first time they had ever been told. I think this is a repeat until they get it. Yeah.

The ball. The ball inside of mom. So cute.

What did I do? You fed me and snuggled my—

He snuggled me. That's so cute.

I can't believe what a treasure that was to find this woman.

I love that. Okay, someone's gonna need to send me that, obviously.

Oh, I'll send it to you ASAP.

Um, speaking of cute little angels, do you want to see something cute?

Is it Fizzy doing Fizzy things?

Yeah, hold on, I'll just send it to you. Oh, he's making all kinds of noises.

Oh my God, what a sweet boy.

Oh, he's such a nice boy.

Those first noises in this little pizza cutter. Yeah, pizza slice, pizza slice, pizza slice. Oh, he's so beautiful.

He's so cute. I really wish he lived a little closer to me so I could hold him and squish him. him more.

Yeah.

He's just so, so cute. I'm gonna say something complicated.

Oh, great.

Complex, complicated, confusing.

Sure.

So yeah, I got this really cute video of Fizzy, and I was just like watching it over and over, and I was like, oh, this little baby, I love him. Um, and you know, then of course when you're looking at these videos, you're like, oh, like I want one of those.

Yeah, yeah.

But then, you know, so I did, I did a photo shoot yesterday Oh, Sunday photo shoot.

Mm-hmm.

It was at my house. And we were doing hair and makeup, and no one there has kids. Me, the hair, and the makeup. No one has kids there. And my hair, Barb— I'm gonna shout her out. Barb. She's the best. Barb does hair. And I FaceTimed Sally. We're both good friends with Sally, and we had to ask her something. We FaceTimed her, and she was in the middle of playing a game, playing Monopoly with her son.

Uh-huh.

And we were saying hi to her son, and then her daughter came in. And of course, they're just all so sweet and cute. And then she had—

Weirdly met them at the park.

Exactly. That's right. And she had to go to take one of them to a birthday party at the American Girl store, whatever. We got off. About 30 minutes later, I said, I feel bad saying this, but I have to. I'm so glad I'm not playing Monopoly with the kid right now and having to drive to the American Girl store. Like, I really had like a real, like, I'm really glad that's not my day.

Yes. Yes.

And it's— it was off the heels of just seeing this little tiny baby that I was like, oh no.

Baby fever.

Yeah.

And it was very confusing.

It is confusing. I should leave it with the latter conclusion.

I don't know what the latter conclusion is.

Because I will say, Yeah. We went when Kristen was probably 8 months pregnant. We went out to eat with Ryan and Amy and Crosby and Millie. They were both born.

Yeah.

And it was an untenable dinner. It couldn't be had. And it was at Big Boys where you're invited to be quite rowdy. But even it was too much for even the back room at Big Boys.

Yeah.

And I remember leaving there in a bit of a panic because Kristen's about to give birth.

Yeah.

And we're going to be in the same situation where it's like we can't even get through a meal at Big Boys. And lo and behold, when it's your kid—

Of course.

Something magic happens where it's like, yeah, I don't wanna be playing Monopoly with someone else's kid. Like, that doesn't sound very appealing to me at all.

Yeah, but it's deeper than that. It's deeper than like, I don't wanna be playing with the kid. It was just like, it had nothing to do with her children. They're great, right?

Yeah.

It was just like, I'm very glad that my day is mine.

Yes, of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That makes a ton of sense.

It's strange. And then that night, or like at 5, I went to a new place. Shout out!

Uh-oh. Okay, buckle up for a new shout out.

Hotel Lucille. It's in Silver Lake. It's a new hotel, and they have a new restaurant in there. Very cute. So Anna and I went, and there was— I won't say who, but an actor there. And we were kind of confused 'cause there was this actor, there was another man, and then there was a lady, and there was a baby. And we couldn't figure out whose baby it was.

Was it the actor's baby or the other?

Exactly.

And the other man was holding the baby really like it was his. But also, the actor was also kind of holding the baby like it was his. So I was like, oh, maybe—

Maybe he was practicing for a role.

No, I was like, maybe these are 2 dads.

Okay, sure.

And then I was like, who's that lady? So there was a lot of questions, but the baby And the baby was so cute. And maybe one of the dads or uncles or friends or something was standing up with the baby and holding it.

Bouncy, bouncy.

And the whole restaurant was drawn to this child and staring. And it was so, so, so cute. And it was just a confusing day.

Sure. Yeah, yeah. But compounded by flies.

Well, now, okay.

Uh-oh.

I have really— well, yes, my flies are here officially. Thank God.

Okay.

Because there was some fakeouts on Friday. There was blood.

Okay.

So I was like, oh, great, we're starting.

Yeah.

And then nothing.

Spotting.

On Saturday or Sunday.

Oh my goodness.

And then I was like, but then today it's arrived full force.

Full flow. Yes.

Um, but I don't know what's going on with my Instagram. Adam Mosseri, if you are listening, please help me.

What's going on?

On my DMs. So I only have it set to I see primary.

Yep.

So I only see who I follow.

Yep.

DMs, right? Something's glitching and people's DMs are coming in. About like 5 of them are coming in for people I do not follow.

And you see the top where it goes primary or general?

Yes.

You're sure you're not in general?

Yes.

Yeah, but I didn't mean to insult you.

I promise.

You never know. He's doing that too.

What's going on?

Oh, wow. There's been a breach of security.

Did you want to ask Rob if he's checked primary and general?

Well, you feel insulted by that. I was trying to work through the things that have plagued me in the past.

I know, but I told you that I follow primary, so I've clearly looked through that.

Well, that did make me know that you know the difference.

Okay, good.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, yeah. Sorry I asked.

I check it a lot and I keep checking it because I'm like, what is happening? I've refreshed it. I don't know what's going on.

Have you read any though?

Has the universe selected you?

Well, that's what I'm about to say. Okay.

So I don't want to, right?

I don't.

And then I'm also then telling Instagram, give me more of these, isn't it?

That's true.

So I haven't been looking at them.

Yes.

But then today I got one and I, you know, you can see the first couple words.

Uh-huh. Sure.

So it said, itchy ear canals.

Oh, okay. And now you're like, this could be a great tip.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I opened it and it said, itchy ear canals are a symptom of perimenopause.

What if— well, first of all, that person also commented. I read that comment.

Oh, great. Well, they are—

They're hitting it from all angles, which is great. Unless it's 2 different people.

I don't know. I just was like, fuck. Okay, so I am in it.

But what's tricky is I have a really itchy ear condition, but mine's from psoriatic arthritis, right? So I have to put this— it's not a steroidal, but it acts like a steroidal does. I have to put it around a Q-tip and then do the inside of my ears because I'll be plagued with crazy itchiness from psoriasis. psoriasis is in my ears.

Yeah, but I don't have that.

You don't have psoriasis. I'm only saying—

It could be something else is what you're saying, which it could be. It just feels right now that they said that. And I am 39 years old.

Yeah.

And it hits Indians earlier. Yes.

That Marie Claire—

Because I think you're still young for it.

But yeah, I think for Americans, I'd be a bit young generally. But since she said that, and my mom hit menopause when she was 50, and it's a 10-year thing. It's 11 years now. Yeah, but this is a 10-year thing.

Okay.

So that is annoying if that's true, that that's why I have it.

Okay. So you're gonna go get your hormone levels checked?

I think so.

Yeah, why not?

I think it's making me feel like I need to do that. But then it did feel a little bit like, oh God, this timeline. Everything's happening.

Scary.

The timeline of menopause?

Menopause, babies, my eggs dying out.

Aging.

Aging, but specifically tied to children.

Mm-hmm.

And coming off of these babies, but then these kids playing Monopoly. It was just a lot.

Yeah.

So I don't really know where I land, but that's just what I've been thinking about.

Sure, sure. Sure, sure, sure.

And then, um, yeah, I do think I want to get some sort of ointment.

Yeah, you should get to— you should put an anti-itch in there.

Yeah, it's so itchy.

I just read a post. Again, these posts present to science and they all say they have a study behind them, but I don't chase down the study.

Yeah.

And then just gets in your head as fact. But the one I read, the post was about the power of the inside of a banana peel, that it is a natural histamine reducer. So you can You can put it on— it's saying you can put it on, like, mosquito bites and it'll get rid of, like, 90% of the histamine reaction. And it even said that it's effective on warts at this really high percentage.

Interesting.

So maybe cram a banana peel in your ear and see what happens.

Well, that's the other thing, as we've talked about, there's so many mosquitoes. Like, what if I just have a couple mosquito bites in there? Circling back to the original, there's a bug in my ear. Yeah. Wow. Okay, well, I'll try.

Well, how did you feel? I hung out with you on Friday night and you were in a real chipper mood.

I'm allowed to be in a little—

I wasn't saying you are. I was just saying I hung out with you Friday and you were in a super chipper mood. That was a fun night.

Don't gaslight me.

I'm not. What do you think I'm saying?

I don't know what you're saying.

I'm saying we had fun Friday night. You were in a very giggly mood.

I thought you just want to talk about Friday night. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah, fun. I thought you were saying things have changed since Friday, which I do think you were saying.

I was. Okay.

Okay.

I believe you. No, I'm just trying to get us to the next piece of content, which I feel like is watching that movie. And that was kind of funny that I thought the surround system was so good that I thought you were making weird screaming noises. We were watching Violent Night Part 2.

Yes. Kristen's movie coming out.

Yeah.

We got a sneak peek. We were watching in your movie theater, and the sound—

You were on the very far right of the room, and I was to the left.

Yeah. Yeah.

And you're right next to a surround speaker.

Yeah.

And I just hear, like—

It was really loud.

Yeah.

And I was like, wow, Monica's going for it. Like, she's feeling so tantrum-y or something. Like, she can't— she's feeling unbridled. And it was really fun to think you were over there just making a ton of noises, like baby noises or whatever.

Yeah, there was like some baby laughter or something that happened.

Some weird noise.

Anyway, it wasn't me. It was the movie.

But Lincoln also thought it was you, which was great, right? Because she was between you and I, and she too thought you were just starting to pop off.

I do have a question about that. So I don't— surround sound is a little I think it's weird for me.

Tell me more.

I think my brain doesn't like it.

Compute it.

Yeah. Because also at the beginning of the movie, I couldn't understand anything. And I didn't know if it was the bugs in my ear. Now I know perimenopause. Or it was like sound mixing. I didn't know what was going on.

Right? Yeah.

So I started—

We don't even know if we're watching a final mix.

Exactly.

'Cause the movie doesn't come out for months.

That's what I kind of wanted to ask. But then I felt scared to ask in case—

It was implying the quality wasn't good.

Correct.

Yeah.

So then I go, am I the only— and then I stop, right? Because I felt— yeah. And then Lincoln looked over and I was like, I feel I can't understand what they're saying. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she was like, oh, he said— and she just said exactly— she didn't have any problems.

Well, right. They have those young ears.

Yeah.

And she can hear lyrics. Like, she's also just good at parsing out. Right.

And she watches a lot of Sure. So I— then I was like, oh no, it is me.

This is bad. Well, no, several things. A common complaint, I think everyone agrees, they do not mix the dialogue loud enough. The dialogue's coming out of the center channel because you're looking at the person, so the, the sound would be emanating.

Yeah.

From in front of you, unless someone behind you is talking. That's when it would come through the surround.

Uh-huh.

Right, as whatever point of view the lens is.

Right.

If a helicopter's approaching from behind the characters, you're gonna hear it there. The goal is to give you a sense of the 360-degree sound. But you are— you happen to be seated directly next to the surround speaker.

Yeah.

So you're gonna be hearing it louder than all of us.

Interesting, yeah.

Just 'cause you're closest to it.

Right.

So probably for you, the mix was A, not good.

Yeah.

Then B, they just in general do not mix dialogue high enough. I can't tell. I was riding that volume. Did you see me riding the volume? rented mule. Every time they were talking, I had to go up, and then every time an action sequence started, I had to go down because I'd be overwhelmed. And that, I feel like, is so standard in movies.

Huh. Yeah. I don't notice it in the movie theater.

I don't think.

But maybe because it's such— I don't know.

They go loud as fuck in the movie theater too, just in general.

But I checked with Anna. She also couldn't understand anything, and she thought maybe it was just because of her accent.

Oh, and also, it was often the little boy talking. I couldn't hear what he was saying.

It was that sequence in the car. I was like, I don't know anything that just happened. So I got nervous. But anyway, I didn't— it wasn't me participating, laughing, screaming, crying, whatever that— it was just the movie itself.

Yeah, but it was so fun to think about it. And then we had a really good laugh at the notion of you.

It would've been great. Yeah.

Next time, just start doing that, maybe.

Okay.

Okay. Expert, if you dare.

I have a couple Sim moments I want to talk about.

Oh, great.

That are huge. One has to do with you.

Oh, good.

So for a couple weeks or a month or something, you've brought up a couple times that there is a place in Nashville called Lebanon.

Oh, yeah.

Spelled Lebanon. Yes.

And you brought this up a couple— Next town over for me.

You've brought this up a couple It's funny 'cause it's spelled Lebanon, but they pronounce it Lebanon.

Yeah.

Great. I had to send, unfortunately, some sympathy flowers, um, and to my friend's mother.

Okay.

And she's— they live in Tennessee.

Uh-huh.

Okay. And I couldn't get them there, and it was like a whole thing. And so I had to ask my friend, um, for help, and she was like, well, you can always send it to Okay, my friend's grandfather passed away. So she was like, you can always send it to his house. My mom's going to be there next week. And I was like, okay, I'll do that. And she sent the address and it was—

Lebanon?

Lebanon Road.

Yeah, sure.

And in Old Hickory, Mount Juliet.

Oh, really?

Wow. I know.

So a neighbor.

I know. And I feel like she once told me that, like, that's where Papa's from. But I didn't— or like, that's where Pawpaw lives, and I didn't really put it together. But when I was seeing it all written out, it was so weird. It was like, whoa, yeah, really? It's the same place.

And Rob's friend Hanford also lives in Mount Juliet. I almost said Lebanon. But yeah, I believe Mount Juliet Road turns into Lebanon Road.

Wow. I know. Isn't that so crazy?

I moved to secretly the hippest place in Nashville.

Didn't even know.

Yeah.

Isn't that so strange? Like, Papa, who I've known since I was 13, 14— isn't that weird though? It's like Papa came there and then you came there. Weird. And I'm in the middle.

So that was Sim number 1.

Yeah, that was Sim. Okay, another Sim. Crazy.

Uh-oh.

I was at Cara.

Yeah.

And I randomly got like a craving slash just— I thought of Chewy granola bars. Do you remember Chewy? Like the brand?

Yeah, the brand.

Yes.

Yeah, they're still around.

Okay, well, so I haven't thought about Chewy granola bars 45 years.

Okay, since you were hanging with Papa.

Uh-huh. Yeah. Um, a long, long, long time. I just don't think about them. I never see them at the grocery. I I, I don't know. And for some reason I thought to just ask Anth— I just texted Anthony. I said, do you remember Chewy granola bars?

Yeah.

And he said, I just ate one 5 minutes ago.

Really? Well, he has children.

But just— but not even the fact that I thought it and he just ate it, and that I thought to text him of all, like, just kind of randomly.

Yeah. And what did he eat, the chocolate chip one?

I didn't ask for— I bet that was the kind I liked.

Yeah, I think everyone preferred those.

I just— what? And he wasn't as freaked out?

As freaked out as me. Because they've never left his purview, probably.

Exactly.

So for years, it had been gone for 40 years or whatever.

I think my brain—

You're not even 40 years old, so not 40 years.

I think my brain must have known That he had just enjoyed one.

He sent out a little pulse in the universe that said he's satisfied in the way that only Chewies can satisfy him. It's a very fingerprinty signature.

But we lived together for a long time. I don't remember.

He wasn't gorging himself on Chewies. I don't think so. I think it's because he has kids.

Well, for sure. It makes sense why he has them at his house, but it makes no sense that I would have randomly thought of them and then he had just eaten one.

Yeah.

It's so weird.

I made it spooky just in time for Halloween.

That's what he said. He made it about Halloween and spookiness, and I was like, no, this is about powers.

Okay, this is standalone.

All right.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um, so that was crazy.

Yeah. Who are you gonna be for Halloween?

Who should I be? A chewy granola bar?

Sure. Chocolate chip. Chewy Bacca.

Oh, that's fun. But I don't think that's a cute outfit for me.

Probably too hot given the trajectory we're on currently. That's true. Although next week it's supposed to be Oh, well, it's been 100 or more for the last 4 days straight.

It's been stifling.

It's been violent. It's been aggressive. It's been hostile.

Ding, ding, ding.

You can't leave the house.

I know, but I have.

You've been leaving the house.

And then I do get headaches.

Back to your kids playing Monopoly. The thing I've had to— I've successfully reframed is there's a whole lot of driving your kids all over the place.

Yeah.

Which is never— I'm never in the mood to get up and go drive across town for any reason. But I've really successfully reframed it where it's like, A, I love driving. B, it's an opportunity for me to drive these cars I collect that otherwise I wouldn't drive. And then B, I'm with them, obviously. It's just the two of us going somewhere. So I've been driving a lot lately, and I've actually been enjoying it lately.

That's nice.

Yeah. And one operation was to pick Delta and her friend up at Okay. You know, what I love is Target is a comp for my mall experience.

Right.

Like, she wants to be dropped off at Target.

Yeah.

Which we did.

Okay.

And so I had to pick her up at 5:10 in the parking lot, but I'm like, I'm a half hour early. I wanted to buy fake cheese. And I'm like, I'll just go up into Target and sniff around.

Okay.

I end up buying some Starbucks coffee pods that are butterscotch flavor. Really nice.

Oh, yum.

And then all this fake cheese. She's trying to help Delta with her goal of not eating dairy because she has the same congestion I do. She has quit eating dairy. It's very impressive to see an 11-year-old self-regulate. And we do a daily gratitude, like, less snot today, less coughing. Okay, we got it. You always got to focus on what the wins are when you quit shit because you just forget that there's any.

Anyways, neither here nor there. Is there vegan cheese or what's fake cheese?

I think it's all oil is what they make it out of ultimately.

But it tastes good and it melts.

Did you ever have the badass breakfast sandwiches we used to get all the time?

Oh, yeah.

Everything on that was fake. The meat was fake. The cheese was fake.

I forgot about that.

Remember how delicious they were?

They were good. Yeah.

That's what got me amenable to fake cheese. At any rate.

Okay, you went there.

I keep thinking I'm going to bump into them in one of the aisles, but I'm not. So I've gone through the whole store and then I got my shit and I'm buying and I'm like, huh, I wonder where they are. And then I look across and there's a little cafe section behind the Starbucks inside Target, and I just see the two of them at a table.

Yeah.

They're like playing with whatever slime they bought.

Yeah.

And they're just— they're two girls hanging at the mall.

Oh, I love it.

And I got spotted by her friend.

Sure. Delta, your dad's here.

Yeah. And I was like, oh shit, I'm cramping her style. This is fine. She wasn't bothered. I'm just telling you that I saw my little girl from afar.

Yeah.

With her girlfriend at a little table having like a girls' day.

So cute. Well, I thought it's funny because On Friday, the Friday we just spoke of, when I came over to watch the movie, we all had dinner, and then we waited a minute because you had to go pick up Lincoln from a hang at a restaurant.

Yes.

And you left, and I thought, I was like, God, I had this visual of you driving up and picking up your daughter from a hang.

hang.

And it was so— it was like, it's so cute, and it's so— I like know the feeling so well. Yeah, my dad dropping me off and picking me up at the— yeah, the mall or the movies or any of these things. And like, you're him. Like, you're a dad that picks up their kids from hangs. It's so strange.

And I'm trying to really enjoy it, and I'm successfully— I've just currently started really, really That's very—

wow.

Yeah, yeah. I floated the whole ride home.

But yeah, there are just moments, you know, when— not to get existential, but you know, like, you can really— you know people in relation to you, and you can of course be empathetic and sympathetic and understand that they're other— they are themselves and their place in the world with other people.

They exist without you.

Well, just— yeah, but it's just very— like, then there are just certain moments that click. click, they're fleeting, right? But that was a moment where I was like, yeah, he's just someone's dad.

That's right.

You're just like—

I'm Ashok.

Yeah, you're just someone's dad.

I'm her Ashok.

Yeah, it's so wild.

I know, it's wild for me. I love it. You know how you always in life, you a little bit feel like you're playing a character?

Yeah.

And I do. I'm like, oh, I'm playing the character of a dad. You feel that? Well, I'm just aware of Exactly what you're saying. Like, oh, I'm a middle-aged man picking up my teenage daughter.

Yeah.

That feels like a character I once knew about.

Right.

But now I'm that character.

I know.

And so you have this awareness of exactly what you're saying. Like, I know what I look like. I look like a middle-aged man picking up his daughter everywhere I go. Or daughters.

Yeah.

And I don't know, I'm just aware of what that looks like. I have some level of self-awareness of it, and then just obviously the intrinsic feeling of it all. But those 2 things are chatting.

I know. It's just so— that's like, like Callie's mom and Callie's dad. Callie's mom and Callie's dad are, are still Callie's mom and Callie's dad to me forever, even though I'm 39 years old and I'm adult enough to like do adult things with them. But like, we'll never be adults together.

Their primary identity will always be the parent of your friends.

Yes. And like, that's you. You're Lincoln and Delta's dad to like a lot of people.

Yeah. And I think some parents get frustrated that their kids can't see them as people, right? You know, it's, it's my great regret, right, that I couldn't have better seen my dad as just a person and not, not my dad.

Yeah.

But I would say it should be embraced because it's a very unique—

It is. Like, I don't think you're supposed to—

No, I think you're supposed to embrace it and you're supposed to get yourself to enjoy, oh yeah, they look at me just like I looked at my parents. Yeah. And that's how it is. Yeah. And there's something There's something about it that, you know—

Like, that shouldn't be messed with, right?

Yeah, yeah. Like, it's, it's not an accident that this is how it works.

Very strange.

Yeah. But you want to go like, you realize you're driving me insane, right? I'm a normal person with a normal threshold of—

But who can care?

You don't give a fuck if it's your parents.

Yeah. Just don't care at all. And nor should they. Um, okay, I have to out myself.

Uh-oh.

Because when we did Facts for Ash and I was reading Phineas's response, and then I read my— I read our exchange.

Yes.

And I used the phrase waterproof evidence.

Yep.

And then you said, is that a phrase? But I just moved on. Okay. Yeah.

And I let it go.

Thank you. Thank God.

Yeah.

Um, and then I— after, I was like, Oh, yeah, that isn't right. It's watertight. So then I voice memoed you that, and then you said that's also wrong.

Well, I just said the popular, the colloquial term is airtight.

Which, like, I think watertight makes sense, though, because if you have a Tupperware and it's filled with water and you turn it upside down and it doesn't leak out that water, it's watertight. Yeah.

Great.

And I prefer that over some air leaking out.

Okay. But I think if it's airtight, it'll be watertight.

I just don't know.

Because air is smaller than water. So if air can't get out, then certainly water can't. It's like you're going to the nth degree.

Okay.

You're going to stick with watertight. That's fine.

I think I like it.

And you should. You're just not going to get that nostalgic knee-jerk.

I see.

Nod of familiarity that you're looking for.

Well, waterproof—

When you go like, no, this case is waterproof, people are going to be like, I wonder if she means— does that mean the same thing as airtight, or does it mean something completely different?

Waterproof was wrong. Yeah, but watertight.

But even watertight, I think if you say it, people will have to— they're not going to challenge you on it like I didn't.

They shouldn't.

And then they're gonna go, well, I assume about 60%, that means the same thing as airtight. And also they're gonna have some anxiety that watertight means a completely different thing.

Hopefully they just think it through and it causes them to like really think a little and they think—

And lose sight of what even you guys were talking about. Yeah.

They think about the Tupperware filled with water turning upside down.

Oh yeah.

I mean, I guess that makes sense. There's no water leaking out.

Yeah.

And the water is the evidence.

And it's also just interesting cuz we're mostly, they're pitching things I'm being water resistant or waterproof, keeping water out. But you want a new— you want a new tradition where we talk about keeping water in.

When we're talking about evidence leaking, we're talking about leaking.

Because again, a ship, you want to keep water out.

I think it's because, yeah, we're talking about leaking. And when I think about leaking, I don't think about air, I think about water.

Right.

Nailed it. I have a question for you, but I don't want to embarrass you.

Okay.

Okay.

Was it about my face?

Yes.

Oh, great, great, great. I was hoping it would come up on the, um, the interview.

No, I was never gonna bring that up on there.

Oh, I would have been happy to because I have a whole thing. Because we went to an event last night, we went to a charity event. Oh, and I'm like, oh, there's going to be a red carpet. I have my whole face is scarred up. And then I was like, what will I tell? It was a carpet. Well, it's Turned out, luckily, there wasn't any press, but it was a fundraiser, so I was expecting there to be press. And of course, I'm not even going to do an interview, but sometimes they happen.

Yeah, sure.

And so I was prepared to say that I was operating a steel grinder, a metal grinder, and that the sparks dotted me.

Okay.

And I was going to say, hold on, I was going to lie, knowing the only reason I was looking forward to this was to lie in that interview so that arm Armchairs would have the inside scoop. Armchairs would go, no, that looks like the Hyphricator 2000.

Okay, so for the listener who can't see—

Or watcher.

Well, I think if they're watching, they can see that you have spots all over your face.

Yeah.

Now it's called what?

Well, this was pointed out to me, and I thank this Commenter, a dermatologist wrote in about my hyphricator.

Oh, but that's not what you were calling it.

I wasn't. I was calling it something completely—

Hyfactor. You were calling it a hyfactor.

Yeah, yeah.

I liked that.

Hyphricator. And they taught me how to say it.

Okay.

And they said all in all, they weren't terribly worried. They thought that the pain would be a big enough dissuader to prevent any real damage.

Okay, well, I think they might need to watch this episode.

Listen, this is what I did last round, if you recall. I had more last round.

No.

Yes, I had way more around my neck and shoulders. I had a shirt on.

It's on your face.

Yeah, it's on my face. Even the tip of my nose.

I got a little something.

You see, I have one tip of my nose.

It's just everywhere. You've done a lot. You've done a lot to your face.

Yeah, it was so fun.

I need you to be careful. And I think that this new thing is your new cutting hair anxiety thing.

No, not yet. I'll admit to it when that happens.

I don't think you know it until later.

No. Cutting my hair as an anxiety release is like, I kind of can't pass a mirror without seeing something. Right. That's that pattern.

Yeah.

This is like, I was accumulating, making mental notes for 2 months since I haven't been by my East Coast Hyphricator 2000.

Yeah.

And so now I finally have gotten one on the West Coast, and it was sitting on my desk for a week. And all last week I wanted to use it so bad, but we were too busy. So Saturday came around, I was like, oh, finally time for me and my Hyphricator 2000. And so I set it up on my desk. This one's even nicer. This one seems to have not been refurbished. I think it's brand new, and it came with tons of attachments, which the other one didn't. This one's gorgeous.

Okay.

So I fire it up and I get to zapping, and And I've already clocked them all. I'll just start digging around my hair to find shit. This is— I already had a laundry list of things that needed zapping. This was always coming. This is like 2 months out. Okay.

And so listen, when I saw you today, when you first walked up, I was like, what has he done? What is he doing?

Yeah, it's great. In like 3 days, I'll have no hyperpigmentation. hyperplasia anymore on my face.

What even is hyperplasia?

Oh, doodads, like skin growths.

I've never— I have never noticed any of that on your face.

Taking your index finger and rubbing it across my forehead and scanning for bumps.

I know, but you don't have any.

Well, now I don't because I just zapped them all to kingdom come on Saturday. And a few— I got a— I got a whopper under my arm. That one I have been been driving me insane for 2 months. I'm like, fuck.

Was it raised?

It was a proper skin tag.

Okay, that I— okay, sure. Like, but whatever's happening on your face, no one notices. And yet here you are making like— you're so scabbed up.

Yeah, I love it. I don't mind it at all.

And I imagined in the middle of the interview, I zoned out at one point, and I imagined like every day you come in and like—

Yeah, I'm just— my whole face is just—

It's an SNL sketch that every day it's worse and worse.

Aggressively. I'm losing more and more sight of it.

Exactly.

I wish to God I wanted the interview subject to bring it up. He wouldn't, because I was going to tell him it was from a metal grinder. And then I just wanted to give the Armcherrys a fun secret that they would go, bullshit, he was zapping his face. That was not from grinding metal. But the grinding metal would be— you would totally buy that because it's just showering sparks. I have burnt myself using metal grinder. It's just showering sparks, so they could have landed and zapped me.

Yeah, you could also maybe say like oil splatter from cooking.

Yeah, not, not mancho enough. I need metal grinder.

Yeah, it's not macho enough. Instead of—

I'm in there, yeah, with vanity central with 6 mirrors and all this lighting. I am using like shop lighting. I have these like really powerful rods that you put under the car to be able to see under there. So I'm— my desk is like, it's a mix between, is he building an engine or is he zapping his face?

Wow. Well, my goodness.

Thanks for noticing. I would've forgot to bring it up, and I'm happy to talk about it. I'm not embarrassed.

Good. I mean, I don't want you to be embarrassed ever, but I do want you to be a little careful with your face. Okay?

I'm being very careful.

You have a nice face. You can just let it be.

Well, no, because the growth will take over.

No, they won't.

You won't be saying that. Yeah, they get bigger and bigger.

Okay. Some facts.

Yes. Ash facts.

Okay. First things first.

I have a text you got to tell me about.

I asked Phineas and Claudia. I said, hi, I'm doing a fact check for Ash, and Dax says he was the oldest non-family member at your wedding. Can you deny or confirm, please? Phineas, false, exclamation point.

False.

And then who was older?

Zane Lowe, exclamation point.

How old is Zane?

Dax. 53.

All right, all right.

And then I said, thank you, I will be setting the record straight.

Okay.

He came back, actually also a guy named Paul who is 70. And then I said, great, this feels like waterproof evidence.

Waterproof evidence? Is that an expression?

Then he said, only guy with no shirt, to be clear.

Okay, so that's really the only—

I said, I have my doubts about that.

That is This is unique.

Yeah.

Okay.

Also though, she made a point because she brought up being at a table by Jason Sudeikis.

Yeah, yeah.

And then she started to say, how old's he? But we, we moved on.

Yeah.

He's 51. He's your age.

When's his birthday?

His birthday is on September 18th.

Yeah, so much older than me.

No, I'm not playing.

9, over 9 months.

Okay.

If we were rounding up, over a year older.

We're not rounding up.

Um, don't need to. 9 months is an eternity. Hopefully you're gonna explode.

Um, is high cotton a bad phrase? The phrase in high cotton or tall cotton is not in— oh, I said is high cotton. It filled in a racist term, so I let it run with that. Yeah. The phrase in high cotton or tall cotton is not inherently racist, as it originates from rural Southern agricultural life to describe a successful harvest and financial Prosperity, obviously. That's what you said, that's what it means. It's—

You don't love it.

On the fence, you know? Oh, Ash said birth control pills. She was like, which we now know are bad for you. Not necessarily true at all.

No.

So I did DM Dr. Mary Claire Haver.

Yeah, great.

She didn't respond.

No, yeah.

In time.

Yeah.

So, um—

I think she's a very busy woman. I think a lot of people, because I know Kristen's got an unanswered DM too.

She is very busy.

Yeah, so maybe on a fact check in 2027, we'll—

Yeah, well, we'll find out. But I just went to overall Google, you know. Um, birth control pills are generally safe and effective for most people, but they do carry potential side effects and rare risks depending on individual health factors. But like, it's not like an overall—

I think what she's talking about is the strokes.

Is that? Or was she talking about having kids? I think she was kind of referencing, 'cause she said, I've been on it for 10 years, and like, and she was talking about the kids thing. That's what it led to.

Oh, okay. I filled in the blank. I thought she was talking— the thing I always hear people panicked about is the strokes.

to be a very common fear, but I haven't heard about that in a while. But it actually can have some health benefits. It can lower cancer risk, symptom relief, obviously. Birth control can help with cramps and heavy bleeding.

Skin benefits for some.

Yep, exactly. Criticism of Body Keeps the Score.

Yeah, I think there's a school of thought that is, if you're suggesting this is trapped in your body and you need to excavate it, that the excavation for people could be more damaging than not doing the excavation. I think I think that's— if I understand the pushback correctly, I think that's part of what it is. Now, look, as I've said, I love Body Keeps the Score. I think it's a great book. And again, what's probably true is that it's very accurate for certain people who have had really intense trauma. And then there's probably other people who don't need to excavate, who excavating is not a good idea. I don't know. But it's such a range of people with a range of conditions that to say one approach is going to work for everyone, naturally, you're going to be able to find a subset that that's not the right thing to do with. Yeah.

It says critics and journalists point out that the book can overmedicalize distress, inflate the definition of trauma, and ignore broader social, political, and structural forces behind violence. Some science writers also argue it misinterprets certain data or presents an overly bleak view of recovery. Interesting.

Yeah.

That might be it. Yeah.

That's it. Okay.

That's all.

Love you.

Love you.