Transcript of Charlie Sheen

Wndri Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple podcast, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Sheppard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Hi.

I am fucking so excited to bring this episode to everybody. This was what an episode.

It was incredible.

Oh, my God. Oh, my God. If you haven't watched this doc or read this book, you must do it. Have you finished the doc? Not yet. You haven't. I'm so jealous. I'd give you anything- I know.

I'm so excited to start it, especially after this podcast. And I was like, oh, my God. First of all, I love him. Yeah.

And- He's so fucking likable. He's so open. Yeah. Charlie Sheen is an award-winning actor, Two and a Half Men, Platoon, Farris Buhler's Day Off, Wall Street, Spin City. He has a new memoir out called The Book of Sheen, as well as the The DocuSeries on Netflix, a. K. A. Charlie Sheen. All of it's great, and this episode is outrageous. Please enjoy Charlie Sheen. Hello, I'm John Robbins, comedian and host of WNDRI's How Do You Cope podcast. I'm also, Plot Twist, an alcoholic. I've written a book, Thirst: Twelve Drinks That Change My Life, published by Penguin. Thirst is a book about alcohol. It's mystery, it's terror, it's havoc, it's strange meditations. But, John, I hear you cry. Isn't that a rather odd book to write for a sober man who, more than anything, wants to stop thinking about alcohol? Well, yes, but I had to go back to find out why the one thing I know will kill me still calls out across the night. It's the story of what alcohol did for me and what alcohol did to me. If that's of interest to you or someone you know, Thirst, 12 Drinks That Change My Life is available to pre order now online and from all good bookshops.

I'm John Robbins, and on my podcast, I down with incredible people to ask the very simple question, How do you cope? From confronting grief and mental health struggles to finding strength in failure. Every episode is a raw and honest exploration of what it means to be human. It's not always easy, but it's always real. Whether you're looking for inspiration, comfort, or just a reminder that you're not alone in life's messier moments, join me on How Do You Cope. Follow now wherever you get your podcasts or listen to episodes early and ad free on WNDYRI Plus. How Do You Cope is brought to you by Audible, who make it easy to embark on a wellness journey that fits your life with thousands of audiobooks, guided meditations, and motivational series. He's an arm We were just discussing string cheese. String cheese. Did you get one where you offered one?

I was offered one, and it turned into a thing.

Oh, what was the thing?

I said that'll be the first and last time that I'm offered string cheese. That's right. I'm probably would say, and she said, Maybe all year.

That's a good prediction. We're in September. Yeah, that's it. Christmas in string cheese aren't natural bedmates. No. I've never seen the spread, and there was a platter of string cheese, right?

There should be.

Oh, my God. Abr, we're always recording. My shirt, even. See that? Yes. Yes.

It stands for always be recording.

I see. Okay.

You know what it's a play on, obviously. You're a cinephile. Abr, Always be Recording. Where do you think we got that?

Glen-gar. Glen-gar. Glen-roth. I was going to say the CIA. That's a good guess.

Always be Closing, remember? Abc. Always be Closing.

For sure. I remember that. So it's just a play on that. That's all. They didn't say that in Glen Gary. No, they didn't.

They didn't say ABR. No.

They got to always be closing. Okay. Yeah, got it. Okay, cool.

First, I want to start with, I haven't seen you in a bazillion years.

Oh, my gosh.

Right? Yes. And I want I would say, if memory serves, it was when you lived in a neighborhood, I knew a guy who lived in your neighborhood was sober, who hosted a meeting. Okay. We'll leave him out of it.

Yeah.

But I went to his meeting at his house, and I do believe I met you there once or twice, and then maybe another house meeting once or twice, but it's been decades.

Was this person in the house that my brother used to live in with Paula Abdul?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Across from Shaquille. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, that's exciting.

But there was the other meeting- In Bel Air? In Bel Air. Thank you.

So that's Tom Hanson, who's my best friend. He would host that.

Is it still going on?

No. During COVID, it went away. Then it went to Zoom. And then another friend started hosting it in a smaller configuration. I got you. But regardless, can I tell you, the funny thing is I met you at this meeting, and I somehow was aware of which house yours was in that neighborhood. And I remember there was a period where you stopped coming to the meeting. And I just remember on Tuesday nights as I would drive by your house in route to this meeting. I'm like, I doubt that guy's coming. What's happening in that house? Sure. Then I would drive out and I would just be like, I wonder what's happening in there because he went.

Yeah. No one ever came and knocked and was like, Come on over.

The only knocks that I would get occasionally were guys carrying Sure.

Yeah, investigating cars that had been...

How about that? How about that thing?

Wow. Yeah, I need more info on that.

I do, too. Okay. And literally, to this day, everyone still thinks I was a part of it.

It's so an insurance fraud.

Based on like...

I know, you had plenty of money.

You know what I'm saying? And I loved the car.

Yes. So Monica hasn't seen the doc, nor has she read the book.

On purpose because I need to act as the audience. The audience might not know what you're talking about. So let's get some more deets.

Yes. Yeah. So you had this beautiful S-Class Mercedes. Correct. Yeah. This was on the news, and this was during... Things are starting to become pretty wild, right? A little bit. They're simmering.

There's a simmer. Yes, indeed.

And all of a sudden on the news, they're like, Charlie Sheen's Mercedes was stolen and driven into a ravine. Yeah.

Off of Mulholland. Off of Mulholland. 400 feet down this ravine in the dead of night. What? I was up to no good that night. Sure. I see the phone ring and it says Mercedes Benz something. Dealer Shivers or something?

Yeah, like safety alert, right? Yeah. I'm sure the airbags deployed and they were probably calling to see if you were dead. Right.

I'm high out of my mind. It was the first night I ever ventured into a paid chat thing. What does that call? Like a web thing. Okay.

Like a nudy- Like a OnlyFans typey.

Before that. When it was still- Like a chat room, but maybe you had to pay.

A love line with video.

Thank you. Got it. Somewhere maybe in Sweden, I don't know. Okay, wow. Switzerland. I was waiting and waiting and waiting, and I see that countdown, and I got a minute to go. Mercedes called. I've been waiting for an hour. I pick up, I'm like, Hello? They're like, Are you okay, sir? I'm like, In a minute, I'll be better.

Not yet. I'm impatient. Is that what the alarm said?

I guess so. She said, Okay, your airbag just deployed. I said, Well, that's weird because my car's in my driveway. She said, Sir, is there any way you could stay on the phone with me and let me know if your car's in your driveway? It was a stationary phone. I said, No, but I'll leave it off the thing. I'll run down there and I'll come back. I come down there and it was one of those things where you think your mind is playing a trick on you. The car's just gone. Then I'm like, Oh, shit, the kids. I run and check on the kids. They're still there.

They got the car, did they get the kids? Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they were with the nanny, and I got back on the phone. I said, The car is gone. She's like, Okay, do you want to report it? I'm like, I mean, maybe not right this minute.

I'll call you back.

Exactly. This whole thing, that took maybe seven minutes. As I'm still on with her, the doorbell rings. I'm like, Shit, hold on. I mean, let me call you back. I'm in a row of them, I'm sweating, hair, eyes, the whole thing, right? I open the door and there's two cops.

Just so you want to see.

Yeah. I'm in a robe and I'm like, Hi, how can I help you? Oh, officers. They said, First of all, we're glad you're okay. We need to just take a look at your body. I'm not in the best shape at the time, but they asked me to lift the robe and they're looking at my legs. I start putting it together. They wanted to see if there were scratches or cuts or dirt or branches. Yes.

That you had dumped- Yeah, I drove it and then- Ram from the scene.

Climbed up the canyon 400 feet through dense spoilage and brush.

Not to mention what injuries you would have sustained rolling. Exactly.

Maybe I thought you pushed it off.

Or just drove it off and then didn't want to get a DUI.

Exactly. The timeline was so compressed. There's no way I could have made it up there. I mean, that would have taken at least what? 20 That would have been even in great shape. Oh, wait. But then I would have had to sprint down Mulhall and like two miles back to my house.

You would have needed an accomplice, somebody else that would have driven you back.

Right. Or they'd own a helicopter. What are we doing? But it was the weirdest thing because I had a Chevron card. Remember we used to have gas cards to the specific gas station? Sure.

Mobile shell. Yeah.

It's a Chevron card that was used later on that same They had video of the guy using it. The cops showed up a few days later and they played it for me. The guy had a limp. It was like right out of the movies, right? Sure. My brain wanted to latch on to a memory that it couldn't come to terms with. It was the strangest thing. I felt that if I could be hypnotized, that I would know who that was.

Because the limb was such a giveaway. You'd be like, Why do I remember a man with a limb?

Yes, it was like one cell from closure or connection. But if I get hypnotized, then I can't be used as as a witness in a case, correct?

I don't know.

Is that true? Doesn't that disqualify somebody? I've never heard that. Do we have a research team?

Yeah, we do a fact check after this, so I will be looking it up. That's true.

Okay, I think that's a thing. But then it was a show night, so I still had to somehow get a couple hours sleep, learn some dialog.

You never connected with the Gael in Sweden, I can't imagine. I did not. I did not. That's a love-loss story. It really is. It really is.

It got away. Then when I got to the stage, there's Chuck, Laurie, and Lee They're looking at me because we had to push the run through back like an hour or two hours.

It's now all over the news, correct?

It is everywhere. Oh, my God. They looked at me in a way like, so what happened? It wasn't like, Hey, man, are you okay?

No way. You lost that right. You burned that up a while ago.

I was instantly guilty when I walked in.

But that's one of the costs of being an addict because you lose benefit of the doubt. You do. Which is reasonable a little bit.

Yeah, but if you just break down the mechanics of what would be required to pull that off. If I had pulled it off, I'd be bragging about that this many years later. Exactly, yes.

It would take a normal man 20 minutes to go up the hill, and I was up in eight. Exactly.

Now, do you get defensive in those moments when he's like, so what happened?

Instantly. But I've gotten better over the years.

We just had an expert on yesterday, and he was saying, one of the things that humans respond most severely to is being accused of something they didn't do. And he said, how do you feel about that? And I said, well, I hate it with the irony of I've gotten away with so much stuff. That you did do. And then the time I get pulled over sober and the guy's like, how many drinks you have tonight? I'm like, I haven't drank since 19. Right, right, right. Forget the fact that I got away with it so many times. Wow. Okay, now, the punchline to the story, Monica. Oh, yeah. Okay. If I have this right is, that's not the only time this car was put into a routine.

That is not the only time. What?

Say it.

Car? No. That car was a hot total.

I was a rider.

I replaced it with the identical car. I love that car. It happened again. I don't even know the time frame that it's connected to. It literally happened again.

And this time it also wasn't you?

It still wasn't me, Monica.

Because I could see the second time of being like, Let me just see if I could do it.

Right, right. Now I know.

Now I want to do it because I already paid the price.

Right, and now I know what they're looking for. Exactly.

Now, yeah. See if I can get away with it this time.

What a trip. Okay, so, Monica, one thing that can't really happen in one person's lifetime is that car gets pushed into her feet and then it happened a second time.

Why would I have left the keys in that second car again? Yeah. That's the moron in the story moment that I'll own. When the guy came to the door, I thought it was a gag. The second time. Yeah, because there's a gentleman named Eddie Braun. He's been in my stunt double for a thousand years, and he does that shit. Pranks. Yeah. Elaborate shit like that. Stop me on pranks. Exactly. That involved usually vehicles, right? Yes. And the cops there, and it's so surreal. I'm really suspicious, and I'm like, Did Ed put you up to this? Are you a friend of Eddie B? And he's like, I don't know an Eddie B. It was a repeat. I need to take a look at your body.

Can you imagine if you're the cop, you get the call and say, It's Charlie Sheen's car. Oh, my God. Then again, I saw that on the news. And then you go up there and he has a... Are you buddies with Eddie? I I know. I'm going to be like, This guy is on another planet.

That's so funny. Both of you are having the exact same experience. The cop is like, What? And you are like, What? Everyone's having the exact same experience. Yeah. It's so wild. It's a madness. Whoever did that. It's madness. Kind of kudos because that is funny. Oh, wait.

I'm sorry. If I'm not mistaken, the Chevron card was left in the second vehicle. Oh. Yes, that happened. Okay. Okay. So that was spooky. That was a message.

Do you think it was the same person?

Well, they would have had it.

Oh, you're saying the original Chevron was returned?

The original Chevron was left in the center console of the second car that was pushed over. What? Yeah. So it was like they're sending a message. No, that's when it crossed over into just creepier terrain. Not cool.

Am I wrong in that there was some suspicion that the second go around was someone that you had maybe been partying with that evening who decided to take your car, not someone on the real inner circle?

Right, right, right. No, that's a good hypothesis.

Again, I don't mean to accuse the addict. Not at all. We do end up with some folks we wouldn't otherwise end up with, we would agree.

Many of them in droves. Yeah. No, I think that was a pretty Hans Solo night as well.

Okay. There's no funny business. No.

But that one didn't get nearly as much press because people were like, oh, my God.

They were like, if we run this story, people will think watching our rerun of the news. Exactly. Yeah, we can't put it up.

And they would just use the same copy and just change the date. And save a bunch of work.

Don't even send the fucking camera crew, the B-roll team.

Isn't that crazy? Yeah. And here's the thing. I think people get a sense of me at this point, especially with the book and the doc, and I'm really forthcoming with, Hey, man, here's everything. I think they have to assume that by now, I would say, Okay, I'm going to set the record straight. That A whole Mercedes thing. I wish I had the coolest story ever to explain what the motivation was, what my goals were. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

Why would you keep just this thing still secret?

Okay.

Devil's Advocate moment? Yeah.

I first say 100 %, I think this is all what happened. Okay. Thank you. Additionally, certainly you and I have had some moments where you wake up and you're seeing some things and some clues and some evidence you were trying to put together. This happened to me. I woke up, my fucking ribs are so sore. I'm like, What is... And I'm missing a day. And then I'm like, Oh, I'm in a lot of pain. And I go outside and I see my Harley is laying on the ground on its side. And I'm like, Okay, so I think I decided to go for a motorcycle ride. Clearly, I didn't make it out of the parking stall. Thank God. I guess this rib stuff is me, I guess, trying to pick it up for a while, maybe.

Is that what I- Oh, damn.

And you can't find the motive at some point. You do do things where they defy the sober brain to understand what the was in that moment because you can get fixated on an insane goal that doesn't make any sense in the light of day. Yeah. So I believe you a thousand %, and it's not hard for me to imagine one Iota, how you convinced yourself. You didn't need to push the second current to never be.

That would be hilarious.

Oh, my God. Just the energy involved. Yeah. It's going to be a bad high.

But I could see yourself up day three and thinking somehow that that will set the record straight.

But how? How does it close that circle?

People on drugs are not really doing how's often.

That's my point. It's like, yes, you and I now know that that would in no way write this injustice. But I do know that there have been moments in my level of intoxication where I would think, I got to set the record straight and push my car off this thing.

Interesting.

That's the thought I could have.

I just genuinely, I don't think I had the energy. No, no. You know what I'm saying? I don't either. Gosh, that's just exhausting. I mean, I've never pushed a car off a cliff. I assume it's an exhausting.

The other thing is, don't you think someone would drive by and see a man pushing? That's going to take a while.

In a bathrobe, yeah. The The first one, they used my car as the mule to then drive around the whole neighborhood and hit all the garages. Oh, they did. And see what they could pilfer. Oh, really? Yeah. Then they also took some stuff from my place they thought was valuable, and they grabbed this one box, and it was all these VHS tapes, 25 episodes of Spin City on VHS. Jeff Ballard, RIP, God rest him, my publicist of 30 years said, Hey, let's get these transferred one day. I'm like, Yeah, I'll get to that whenever. And they stole the box of Spin City VHS, and they were dumped on Mulholl in in the middle of the road. Oh, no. It's a weird way to tell a guy we didn't like that show. Yeah, we were a fan.

They might have been really excited about the box of VHS tapes. Maybe they even thought they were adult films. And then someone popped open the thing in the back and said, That's fucking spin sitting.

We've been had. The car might have been too heavy to push.

Without getting ready.

It was like, We got to start shedding stuff. I didn't do it, but I am getting in the mind.

I'm getting a sense of how your mind works. It's a trip. This is a beautiful pair.

She's a nice mix of presents nice, but could kill if necessary.

If necessary.

Good. I'm getting behind you if it goes sideways.

I will say this. Monica started out with Kristen and I as a babysitter 10 years ago. Oh, wow. This got elevated to she was Kristen's assistant. Then one of the very first things somehow we made her do, or Kristen made her do, was people were coming over to look at a duplex we just bought to rent. She goes in with this couple, and the couple says, Where's the washer and dryer and refrigerator? Which they had seen in the previous trip over. So someone had broken into this duplex and stolen all of the appliances.

I'm finding out real-time with the people who I'm trying to sell it to, basically.

She's 27.

I was like, Oh, they weren't very good, so we're replacing them and we're upgrading.

You came up with that in the moment?

I was so proud of myself.

You didn't make the place look like it was a prime spot for crime. Exactly.

Because who would want to go move into a place where everything was just stolen?

She calls me and says, That duplex was robbed. There's no appliances. I was showing the people and I go, What did you say? She goes, I told them you were upgrading them. I literally went, Click. You're invited to be around forever. You know how to handle shit when it goes sideways. This is a very valuable quality. You got to think on your feet. That was a big moment for us, whether you realize it or not.

A valuable and a rare quality. A rare.

Thinking on their feet, lying to their face.

That might feel bad.

There's nothing to feel bad about.

They did get better appliances.

What if they got robbed?

They didn't. It's never happened. Are you sure? I know because we still own them.

They're still there?

I don't know. I don't think they're still there. That was a decade ago. Yeah, it was a long time ago.

It'd be great if they were still there. They love it so much.

Yes, I would love to think that that's what it was.

There's something I've been carrying around for... How long ago was the Tom meeting in Bel Air?

21 years ago.

Okay. I was a dick to you one night. Oh, tell me. Yeah, that was not cool. Like an asshole 5,000.

Tell me because it's so bizarre. I don't remember that.

The next day or the next week or the next month, I was like, I got to make that right. Here we are 20 years later.

This is lovely.

I have this thing. It was Halloween. We were sharing Halloween with super tiny children is not fun. It's just not. I mean, it is and it isn't. It's fun for the photo on the fridge later. It's just the whole effortful. A lot of crying, generally.

Yeah. Scary Monsters are everywhere.

Just an ideal scenario. I was in a pissy mood in my share, and I was bitching about Halloween and just zero gratitude about anything. Then a couple of people later, he starts sharing, I don't think you had kids yet, right?

No.

I was like, Yeah, no, we had a great time. Went to a couple of parties. You were giving the fun version of Halloween I mean? In the middle, I said, Try it with fucking kids, dude. And it was so inappropriate and unnecessary and uncalled for. So 20 years later, apologies.

No problem.

Sorry about that.

Do you find this to be the case? I have found this numerous times. Now look, there's a lot of people I've made amends to. Thank God I did, and they were really hurt and that repair had to happen. More often than not, I've called people and said, I did this and I did that. And they're like, I didn't give a fuck. But I'm living with this notion that this person fucking hates me over it and then felt betrayed by it. I do think that's an interesting part of making amends is you've built up a lot of it in your mind that isn't really there. It's just you're holding it. They weren't.

Yeah, we've decided the level of trauma for them that they've been carrying as a result of our behavior.

And we're not even that important in their life. Exactly.

But that's what apologies are, though. They are for you. They're because you don't like the way you behave. It doesn't match your values or who you want to be. So that's what it's about more than the person. Correct.

But I do think the process of making those teaches you crystal clear, oh, you only carry your own mistakes, really. You don't really carry other people all that much. Sure. You just go like, yeah, that person is whatever. But what haunt you and gives you shame and tortures you is your mistakes. And I think that has given me some grace in times where people are, in my opinion, wronging me. And I go like, Oh, yeah, I'm a little upset today, but I will not think about this in eight years, trying to fall asleep. And that person will. And I don't want that for them. And I actually feel bad in this moment because I see you're accumulating those things.

Yeah. The second that this was put on the schedule, and thank you, it's an honor to be here. Oh, yeah. It's an honor for us. I was like, oh, cool. I get to clear up that thing from like two decades ago. That's so nice.

Yeah, but you know what's great? It's a testament to, and I thought this a million times while watching the documentary, I was like, the guy is just so fucking likable. Oh, thank you. You're beyond that. You're likable, you're lovable. Thank you. And it's funny because a million different people could have said that in a meeting, and I would have wanted to fight him afterwards. But I just think your likability.

You're like, let me I hate Shane. Hear that.

Yeah. It may be even flattered that you are addressing me. I grew up. I'm 10 years younger than you. It's not like I wasn't a fan of yours as a kid. I was. So I'm like, get out of here. The dude from Platoo just told me to shut up to do it with kids. That's great. Wow.

It also sounds like a joke. Maybe I would just think that was funny.

People certainly laughed. Right.

I would have said it with a little bit of a chuckle, though. Yeah. Here's my Jess. Yeah, it was sour grapes, man.

Okay, so I absolutely love the doc. I've told so many people on here. And I'll tell you the accomplishment, I think of it is in full honesty, I come in for a lot of different things. Like, A, I've met you a couple of times. B, I want a rubber neck. I want to hear some great fucking drug stories because I'm a junky, too, and I like those. And I'm totally serve that up in a very delicious way. And then it ends in the most satisfying and heartwarming and beautiful way. Then I'm like, my God, God, this thing worked on every level. I'm really emotional at the end. I just moved beyond belief. It had everything I could want. It's spectacular.

Oh, right on. Thank you.

Then I'm two-thirds of the way through the book. I'm listening to you.

Okay, good. Are you getting a sense that the book is telling stories in a different way or filling in some blanks from stories in the doc? Absolutely.

The ones that overlap. There's a ton more in the book. I want to compliment you. I'll be honest with you. While I'm listening to it, I'm like, Who did he get to write this book? I thought, oh, you know what? He probably got one of the sitcom writers that wrote for him and really knew how to write in his voice. Because these great writers, they do that. They learn your voice and they can write for you. Mimic it, yeah. It's so funny. I thought, yeah, that's what happened. That's how he sourced this ghost writer or collaborator or whatever.

Right.

Then I was reading the interview with you and Emilio in interview today and learned that you actually wrote the whole thing. I did. I was so impressed because, A, it's just a very well-constructed and formatted book. The structure of it's great. It's solid. But your authentic voice is there every sentence. Amazing. Which is hard to do. That's great writing when you can infuse your actual voice onto the page.

That's a wonderful compliment.

It's great. It's really, really good.

No, that's really cool. Yeah, they tried to put me with the ghostwriter, which rightfully so, with my history and my past or however people perceive me, says, I'm going to write a book. They're like, Well, it's an investment they need to protect. They're like, We think you need to work with someone. I was like, That's a deal breaker. There was like an audition phase for a certain amount of chapters. Were you turning over chapters? Then they finally... There was that one day where they were like, Let's just leave him alone. Let's let him keep going. That's a testament to Jen Bergstrom and Amy Bell and my team at Shuster. They just went, okay.

Good. Were you typing or handwriting?

I was handwriting my notes, but typing the actual chapters, the manuscript. I don't type well. Are you a speed typist?

I type pretty fast, but I type four fingers pretty fast. Right.

Okay.

I can't. What do they call it? Home? I don't know.

It's called something.

My son Bob is like 180 words a minute. It's insane. Why? It's all from gaming. It's all from gaming. I was like, How do you get a nice paying job with that typing speed? With that skill.

You get in a time machine and go back to 1981. Exactly. And put them on someone's desk.

He can be a secretary.

But okay, as I think about how do I get your life into this interview in some way. Really, it's impossible. There's so much stuff. It's crazy. I really could do five hours on all the things that I learned in that doc. But I guess there were some thematic things that I wanted to go through.

And also, I hope they told you the dude is wide open. Or they probably said, Stay away from this shit.

No one said anything.

Okay, good.

But I know because we're both in a program that we won't help ourselves even if that was the game plan.

Yeah, but my thing is like, well, hold on. I put it not just in a documentary. I put it in a book that I wrote. If you do that, you better be willing to talk about all of it.

Great. So that's one of my first questions because I have at times written things, then put them out there. In the writing, it's fine because I'm in total control and I'm in my room, and then I get to decide what gets published. But once it leaves my barn- The giant Whoosh to the universe. Don't you have this like, well, I had control and now I don't have it? Oh, yeah.

I went It was a powerful moment, though.

Yeah, it's scary, right?

It was scary. Then I made a decision. I can either stay backpedaling, I could be on my heels, or I could just lean into it. I had to lean into it to a hit send, right? Yeah. I'm not a lean in guy, just by nature. I'm always like, Hey, let's talk about this. A little skeptical. Yeah. But I think that was a cool moment to break through to just say- Release. Yeah. All right. What happens next? I could say is none of my business because it is and it isn't. The part It's all about how it's perceived as none of my business. But then it's made my business when I have to talk about it and promote it. Totally. Correct? Yes.

If you found that some of this stuff is much harder to say out loud than it was to type out.

It was in the first couple of interviews. Then I caught a snippet of one because I don't really watch a lot of stuff, but I did catch a clip off of Good Morning America with Michael Strahan, who's amazing. I'm sure you know Michael, right?

I've been on the show and met him, but I don't know him personally. But he's a great dude.

But he's terrific, right? Yeah. We got into some stuff. I caught a little section, like a YouTube short, I think, of it, and I didn't look confident. I thought, okay, I saw that for a reason, just accidentally flipping past other shit.

I needed to know that.

Yeah. I was like, okay, all right, let's change that. If I'm uncomfortable, what's the audience doing?

Yeah, it's contagious.

They're like, Dude, really?

Shit. Okay.

He looks like he doesn't want to do this, and I can't enjoy it if he doesn't want to do it.

Right. They're just waiting for me to tell them another Apocalypse story or something.

Of the things that we have in common We have the addiction thing. I want to say I've gone really, really hard. I've gone harder than most of my peers did that I partied with, and I was really, really, really shown a whole nother level in the doc. I didn't think I'd ever hear someone's story and go, he's got it worse than I do.

You mean the amount?

The amount, the duration. There's periods where his dealer who goes hard as fuck, they've been smoking crack for three days. The dealer has got to go home and go to sleep. He comes back in a couple of days. Charlie's still at it from a couple of days More people have showed up. With less and less, I don't know how to say it nicely.

Composed.

I always say this. I always, weirdly, you do have some inconsistent things as an addict where it's like you're doing one thing, but then you have this virtue. My thing was I always checked in with my girlfriend. I didn't want her to worry. So it'd be like, I was supposed to come in at 2: 00, going to ring at 2: 00. Hey, I'm going over this hotel. These guys have just met here. And then I would call her at 6: 00. Now I'm in a different motel. Now it's a motel. Now I'm with six dudes that are even worse than the previous. And she would go like, You don't have to update me. Please stop. Okay, I just don't want you to worry about me. Even though what I'm telling you is I'm with worse and worse people at worse and worse places.

You're delivering very worrisome news. And now I'm in a car.

I'm in a car goes down.

Because Dave lives in San Diego. It's like, what the hell? Yes. What the hell?

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, If You Dare. But in addition to the addict stuff, I see so much of your story in your life being really impacted by being a little brother. Do you think so? When you dig into what all is going on.

Sure. No one has really pointed that out or latched onto that. It was just the proximity of being just within arm's reach of his really fast, meteoric fame rise with that group.

Then making I'm at least with that. How am I a loser and wanting to be as cool and be invited and be included over here? Then over here, I'm the person people want to be included by. You're dualistic just by the dynamic you're born in. For me, that's how it was. Sure.

I experienced a lot of that.

Inferiority and superiority complex working throughout my whole childhood.

Right. And from one hour to the next. I wasn't like, Oh, last week I was a badass, and then the following week I sucked, and I was the valet or the puppy dog tagging along.

Was your brother the golden child or was everyone?

Emilio, he was great in school. He always had a very cute girlfriend. Ramone, who's between Emilio and myself, marched to a different beat. He was a punk rocker, searching for some identity somewhere in the mix of all of it. Then we got, of course, dad leading the charge, have grown up on his sets and watching his successes and failures. Then my sister, Renee, is below me. But there's a weird point in the air where we're all exactly two years apart.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, there's a line in the book about when I went to junior high, which is now middle school. I said it was being exposed to that many girls with all these hormones. It was either the coolest thing ever or the meanest joke ever played on me. Then I said, Only skin clarity will tell. Because think about it, right? You start breaking out. It's over. It's a wrap. It is a wrap. That's horrible.

Yeah. Wow.

It's so hard to be a cute.

But you were always quite cute. You were blessed with being pretty darn cute.

Thank you. I did have a A bad year and a half. And somehow this summer, right before I wanted to audition and give this thing a shot professionally, it just magically cleared up. It's like I willed it off of my face.

How old?

What age were you then? 17.

Wow.

But what I'm going to try to put on you and project on you is I imagine you got very comfortable in these very big swings. Status quo was these huge swings. I even imagine now, I wasn't the child of anyone famous But I have children, and I do think about this. Sometimes it's like, they move through the world with us, and they're with mom and dad, and everyone knows mom, and everyone wants to cater to mom. Do you guys want to sit over there? They're experiencing life in a very privileged and bizarre way. And then when they're not with us and they step outside of it, they resume civilian life, which is no one wants to help you. Go fucking ask the other guy, right? That's life on planet Earth. Sure. These radical shifts in the dynamics and what your experience can be, I feel like it almost could hardwire you for how absolutely dramatic your life was, ultimately.

Interesting. You mean to be either Martin Sheen's son or Emilio's brother in their presence, but on my own? Piece of shit. Just a guy. Third dude from the rear, yeah.

And then get your own. So it's like, now I'm this heightened thing, but I'm familiar with it because it's how I'm treated on set. Marlon Brando. This motherfucker is having lunch with Marlon Brando on Apocalypse Now as a kid.

As an 11-year-old, yeah. It's crazy. I remember it so So vividly. Wow. Yeah. And not even knowing- What he was. Well, knowing enough, but not the breadth of his genius. The weight of it. All the weight of it. Yeah.

What you had to have clocked was that I'm sure your dad probably acted in a way around him. He probably didn't act around anybody. Like, oh, shit, my dad worships this dude.

Yes, he was one of dad's inspirations to become an actor. But you talk about those big swings that I seen, but just roll with it. Yeah. I think a lot of that was that really none of it was planned. I never sat down and I was like, okay, I'm going to do a project that looks like this. And if that one goes a certain way, that'll probably open the door to do this other thing. And then, okay, and if that works out, then I've done those two things. And then obviously, the third thing makes perfect sense. None of that ever. It was like just getting a script. Okay, wow, this is a world that I'm excited by. This is a character I think I could pull off, not even Excel, pull off. What's the messaging behind that? You know what I'm saying? Keep them fooled is the messaging. The imposter thing was part of it. I better make the most of this because that day will come.

When they find out.

Yeah. When they knock on the door, they're here for your sag card. Or you're told that, Yeah, we've figured it out now, and here's the only stuff you're qualified for, which is the chatter the whole time. At some point, they're going to stick me over on something that isn't all this great big cool stuff.

We've interviewed 500 actors at this point. Wow. 455 of them have imposter syndrome. They have imposter syndrome without Amelia as their older brother and without Martin as their father. So your level of it, I have to imagine, is probably pretty fucking extreme.

It's probably a little more than the average bear is what you're saying. But I guess that could have gone either way or worked in my favor or against me in that, I don't want to say I had something to prove, but the bars were set pretty high. But also the fruits that I saw connected to matching some of those achievements, that was a big part of it as well.

Well, I would imagine the seminal moment is like your brother joined the Brat pack. You write in the book about going out on Hollywood Boulevard with Judd- And Rob. And Rob Lowe and your brother and the woman that was there. I'm trying to remember.

Melissa Gilbert was there. Demi Moore was there. Demi Moore. Yeah. Andrew McCarthy was there.

Yes. And you and Chris Penn are also there, but you're in the exact same boat.

You're the little brothers.

You're there, but you're also not there.

You know if the doorman doesn't see your brother nod that you're coming in- They're going to lock it as we step up. This really confusing, I would imagine, bit of privilege and then also feeling less than all the time. Sure. It's like you're having more than 98% of the people, but also even in that spot, you're feeling way less than for sure.

And was there any? Because I feel like that's a breeding ground for resentment.

That would come at the end of the night when everybody went home with someone. When I went home with either Chris or just me. Chris and I would sit up late at night like, Okay, what are we doing What's missing from this? He was like, Idiot. The big hit movie. I'm like, Yeah, you're right. Okay, okay. How do we make that happen? Then Chris did. He did Footloose. He did Footloose. Suddenly, he was the toast of the town. Sean saw a screening. I remember I was at his house with my parents, and I remember him walking in and saying, holy shit, Chris is going to be a star. Wow. He just like, claimed it. He announced it. It was really a cool moment.

I'm inclined to believe Sean.

Yeah, me too.

If there's someone who's opinion on my value in that space, it would probably be his.

Yeah, you take his word just because it's the safer thing to do. I talk about in the book, I said Chris and I were oresmen in the same unknown boat. Now I'm rowing that thing alone. Yes. Then Chris and I were still making Super 8 films even after Footloose. But he had worked on this Vietnam office for 10 years. Now that he had gobs of money, he was hiring special effects crews. Oh, wow. They were still filming with a tiny and he's blowing up this river. I was the DP, and I'm literally trying to frame out a Colossus at Magic Mountain because we were at that place. What's that place called?

In Santa Clarita?

Yeah, it's like Indian something or rather, behind Magic Mountain. He got a permit to blow up the river. Oh, wow. Everybody was in full fatigues with M16s. Oh, my God.

We took it to this crazy level. He did.

Then he continued to shoot on 8 millimeter.

Yeah. Just kept me there as the DP. I'm filming Craig T. Nelson, Eric Stoltz, Sean Emilio, Leon Robinson. Oh, my God. There was like a whole...

Craig T was in those?

Yeah.

Do you know him? I was on a show with him for six years, and I love him beyond believe.

Yeah, he's lovely. Then I was exposed to it or in the presence of it and still not on their side of the camera.

Yes. It can be maddening.

Yes. I think, Chris, I'm pretty sure I could do more than that.

Get rid of Klauss in the background.

They're clicking. They're Those were moments along the way that did inspire and get just that- Chip on your shoulder, probably. Yeah, and the fire. The fire and the fever and all of it.

You knew you were creating wreckage. You knew you were scaring people that loved you. Sure.

At what age? When is this starting?

You're an addict from the jump. Yeah, I mean, you're pretty much- Yeah, but there were long breaks.

Right.

It sounds like you got pretty in line to work, as did I. Sure.

But the time I would give myself as it progressed would shrink. I'm like, All right, I'm going to need two months in my 20s. I would commit to it and show up, shining like a new dime. Then I was like, That's a three-week prep. That one, no problem. Then that turns into, All right, so it's Friday. We're shooting on Monday.

My call time is 5: 00. I've got to shut it down by 11: 00 PM.

Oh, my God. The math we get into. Oh, my God. And the negotiations.

Once you pass 10: 00 PM, the amount of math that starts happening every five seconds until it's 5: 00 AM.

It's a class I never attended. No, it's nuts. It's insanity. Then I have this thing about the speed of the time, the rate at which it vanishes from 1: 00 AM to 6: 00, I think it's like 100 times faster than 9: 00 PM to, say, midnight. Couldn't agree more. Okay, good.

Even when I have fantasies, as I do, because I'm an addict, of how I could use successfully, my conclusion is, I just needed to start at 10: 00 AM. There you go. If I just started at 10: 00 AM, I probably could have made it to sleep by 2: 00.

For the AM call. Which is doable. It got to the point during anger management where I was taking the 15-minute reset nap just to hypnotize myself or meditate into a place of, Okay, none of that happened. I know what's in front of me. I can pull this off. They'll know something's up, but they won't know to the extent of how high it's up. I will nap at lunch.

You're problem-solving.

But you're not. You're not. You trick yourself into the thing you are.

You cobbled together something that you think is a solution.

Will you tell her about the time that you're visibly falling asleep on camera? Yeah.

I don't know where that came from. I think it came probably from some sexual behavior that I'd heard about. But I'd never done it. She's like, What the hell are I want to know. What are we on the doorstep? I was filming a movie in Canada called Free Money. I've been going way too hard. It was like midday and I had this scene in a cafe or a diner, and I was trying to get through it. It wasn't much about the dialog, it was about the level of fatigue. I thought I was keeping it together. The director between takes, he walks up and he says, Hey, man, I see you falling asleep on camera.

Oh, my God. Monica in the take.

Yeah, and I've never done heroine, right? That's like a heroine thing. Or even Suboxone, which is like contemporary methadone. Yes. I'm telling her, and she's your co-host. No, sorry.

You don't know what's Suboxone? No, I do.

I've seen all these drug documentaries. I know about them.

Okay. Overprescribed everywhere on planet Earth and needs to get a closer look at that shit, right? Yeah. I said, Okay, my bad. I need a cup of ice. Bring me a cup of ice. He's like, Okay, what do you want to drink? I'm like, Just the ice. He's like, Okay, I said, Give me a minute. I go into the bathroom. I'm like, Okay, I've heard about this somewhere else, but for sexual reasons, I'm going to stick an ice cube up my butt. No. Yeah. I'm pretty sure. It was a good size one. I didn't want it to melt.

You got one of those big round ones they make for whiskey.

If I see it in the cup, I'm like, No, no, no.

I need a regular size piece of ice.

Can you imagine? Yeah, and I keestered it like I was sneaking drugs into prison, right? It was suddenly wide away because it was so uncomfortable. Of course. It was so cold.

Not to mention the clunching you were probably doing to keep it in.

Yeah, man. Yeah, also the leaking.

Yeah, you're just leaking. You're not peeing because it melts.

I was in a conductor's jumps. The overall thing tells you the quality of the movie, right? I came back to set and I'm like, Let's do this. You're so aware. Let's do this, Monica, there's footage of these takes in the movie, which is incredible. Then I've got the melty clock going. How many takes is he going to need? We got through it. I think after that, I wasn't like, Oh, I better go get the ice cube out. Sure. Because we've all thought about the perfect crime. You shoot somebody with an ice cube. Oh, yeah. That's right. And then there's no ballistics. I'm like, Okay, it's just going to vanish. There will be no ballistics in this crime scene. We made the day. When I saw that scene in the dark, I'm like, why didn't they just send me home? That guy's not well. I'm not passing the buck. I'm not saying like, oh, shame on them. But there was like a hole, and I talk about it in the book. It gets there later on about this string of movies that I did in a state that was destroyed.

Charlie, I have directed something where somebody was so fucked up that I just had to switch to, okay, how do I get them through this? They have a ton of dialog. Okay, you're on a phone call. I'm behind the monitors and I'm seeing every single line, and they're repeating them. Then I come up with another solution and the next thing. I got a million dollars to make a car chase movie. I can't send him home. I got to get through this.

What condition was that actor in when you met them for the job?

I had some concerns. They were a close friend. And then even worse, after this terrible day of filming, I said, Look, dude, I know exactly what's going on. He said, Yeah. Then, probably even worse, he quit cold turkey opiates. So then for the rest of the movie, I'm dealing with someone detoxing.

No.

Fuck.

Okay. I have this experience at a hotel down the street where there was a kid, 21 years old. His parents are famous. That's an understatement, but continue. Yes. He would get so fucked up every day. I go there to work and I would see him. And one day, it was so bad. He was falling over. He almost knocked his head open. He was scaring everyone.

Was Was it booze? Was it dope?

I don't know. When she described it, I think he was definitely benzoed out. Got it.

Okay.

And drinking. Overly Xanaxed and then drinking. Got it.

He was falling out. He was just fall over and then come back, too. It was so scary looking to someone who doesn't do that. And my friend went up to the bartender and was like, Dude, this guy's not okay.

But you were in a public place? Yes. I thought you were in his apartment.

No, we were in a hotel, bar, and restaurant.

Got it.

Okay. They went up and they were like, This person is not okay. And they were like, Oh, he's my friend. He's my neighbor. It's okay. And he was like, Well, first of all, I know that's not true. And also, it doesn't matter. He needs help. That guy was like, Okay, that's a bartender. What can he do? So my friend went to the manager and said, You need to get this person help. They need to leave. This is bad. And they were like, Do you know who he is? And he was like, I don't care who he is. This is a problem. But that's the way a lot of people operate, right? Do you know who he is? We We can't kick him out. We can't tell him anything because he's famous. Right. And I think that's what- What might have been happening behind the scenes.

People might have been saying, We got to get him home.

But then people are like, But we can't because it's Charlie. My whole takeaway from that whole thing was, you guys think you're doing him a favor by not kicking him out? He needs help, and no one's telling him or his parents. So you would have been better off if they had told you to leave instead of letting you continue. Yes.

It's this six-pack of movies that I talk about in the book and just how one was just worse than the last one. The behavior was identical across all those different sets. And the only way that I really knew where the hell I was was hotel stationery or a souvenir from the airplane. Oh, that's where we're doing that job.

Talk about being untethered. You're like, you really don't even know where you're at in space and time.

I got to believe. Let's say, okay, the first three were whatever. Then by number four, it just would have been cool in the first meeting, they just said, The last place you need be right now is on a movie set. Exactly. Trying to be responsible. Yes. And play make believe.

Because if you have no consequences, why would you stop?

That's the key thing when the consequences are always negotiable. Until they're not. One day they become very not. Difficult in the moment, but tons of gratitude later that what should have been a stop sign was always yield. And when it becomes a stop sign, it's there for a reason. And I think the thing that people are responding to with the dog, which is really cool, and in some ways, the book, they're getting this story from the guy, and they shouldn't be. They should be getting it from an educated narrator. A journalist. Yeah, a journalist. It's all archival, and there's sad music, and it's a whole thing. It's an if-only story, and it's not. It's cool, right? Yeah.

Well, I'm sure you have the same agitation when you see how generally recovery gets played in movies by a bunch of people who have no experience with it. It's like it's so somber. Put Charlie and I together and we'll start talking about this carnage. It's just because you survived and it's not happening today, you got to laugh about it. It's just got to be funny or you would just drown in the shame of all the fucked up shit we did. You've had a lot of time to reflect. I'm suggesting things as part of the recipe, like the fraudulence. That's certainly part of it. Sure. What do you think about just how incredibly high the bar was set so quickly? I also think that's problematic. You don't graduate high school. I'm going to give acting a shot, and on a very short time, you're on platoon. And that's bonkers. And then you're 21 and the thing wins fucking best pitcher.

And I'm watching that broadcast from New York having just started Wall Street.

And then now the cash and prizes are arriving. Those are extremely heightened. Sure. The people that navigate it, I'm so impressed because it's an untenable level of heightened arousal. It is. And at some point, the cash and prizes wear off. And I think that's where drugs really... I'm supposed to feel elation right now. I have everything I wanted. Where's the elation? Crack gives you elation.

Yeah, it does in a way that no part of the job can.

It fills in for the disappointment of the fantasy.

Interesting.

You're in a dangerous spot.

Yeah, that has to be altered.

Medicated.

There's a thing that I always go back to from my own flameouts and then also witnessing the flameouts of others or even just the behaviors from those flameouts or lack of gratitude or just someone's completely shit the bed. I always ask myself, and I put this on me, too, okay, when I was building this fantasy as a child, when I I saw the life of a movie star or I saw it with dad, but my version, my name and lights and my successes. Then you're in a weird motel with two bikers and four street walkers. Someone's making a math run and you're like, Wait, I don't do math? You're like, Where was that in that whole fantasy package? You can't plan that stuff, and you can't prepare to avoid it. You know what I just thought of sitting here? What if they always kept the audition process connected in play, like as a mandatory part of getting a job? Even if your last film made $100 million.

Yeah, you make Brad Pitt read.

Everybody still has to audition. Can you imagine? I mean, people would flip out.

They would never allow it.

Almost all of the fantasy is, oh, my God, finally, I won't have to go earn it in this awkward situation. That's almost the best part of the fantasy.

It is until it isn't. That's the imposter syndrome. Yes. When you're like, oh, shit. Okay, so now they just think because of that thing they saw, I can do this next thing. Now you're just being trusted and treated like a commodity of sorts. And the first test is on camera. And usually with people that you respect. You admire. Yeah. It's like, whoa. I think they should also refilm day one. Always. It's like the first pancake. I think they should make day one, two days.

I like that. Get it out of the way.

Because I'll look at stuff on day one, they put in the middle of a movie, and it's like, oh, Jesus, I wasn't even warm. I wasn't even warm.

Yeah. I haven't even moved hotel rooms yet to the one I like. Exactly. So the one I don't like facing the fire station. Yeah.

So these are my fixes for Hollywood. Yeah, I love that. And they're terrible. There's something.

Another thing I'm wondering is a lot of the stuff, it came pretty easily. That's confusing. It did.

And some of it was just right place, right time. Yeah. I mean, think about the The Buhler thing. The Buhler thing is a trip.

Monica needs a no. Jennifer Gray says, Hey, come. I want you to be in this movie. Come meet John Hughes. Yeah.

And I had worked with Jennifer on Red Dawn. Got it. Okay. She says, Hey, there's this one scene. It's a really cool character. I told the director, John Hughes, that you'd be the right guy for the job. I'm like, Wow, thank you. I think she was dating Matthew Broderick at the time. She plays the Sister. She got one of the leads. Well, you've seen the movie, right?

Yeah, I love it.

Classic. I prepare and I get the scene and my brother Ramone, I'm borrowing all of his punk Rock shit to look like that guy.

You're rubbing ashes on your eyes or something weird.

You had to rub something weird. Yeah. I had to look tired. I drive all the way down to Long Beach. I meet John Hughes in the parking lot, and I'm expecting him to say, Great. Okay, so we're going to go over here and we're going to put you on tape. We'll get back to you. Like, were you normal? Yeah. He's on the move. He's like I describe in the book, a man with a full plate and no time to eat. I start walking with him, and he's got a couple of assistance with him. He's super busy in the middle of a complicated day, shakes my hand, takes me in for two seconds. Kid, you look great. We'll see you next week. You look great. We'll see you next week. You look great. I stop and I just watch him walk away. Keep going.

Then the panic sets in, probably. You don't know if you can do it.

But are you also like, I'm magic.

It's a rush.

It's probably all things.

It's all things. I'm sure for your ego, it must be like, Oh, my God, I don't have to do anything.

It's a whoa moment, but it's also a, God, if he had at least seen me read it and it was wrong, then at least I got a place to work from. He had no idea how he was going to play this thing. I know.

And by the way, among my favorite things you've ever done, Thank you. I mean, you really did the impossible. You walk away with a big chunk of that movie in one scene. I mean, they wrote about you in the reviews saying you were smoldering.

It's just so strange. Then, okay, so in that week, it's all in the dark, and the book, dad and I go down to take part in a TV show.

Oh, this is going to blow your fucking mind.

That pits actors against athletes. And the card we drew was Michael Jordan. It's a two on one versus Jordan. It's a three part competition itself. It's free throws, a game of horse, and then a two-on-one. No.

Wait till your hair all plays out, Monica.

Do you want to know or you just want to watch it? No, I want to know. I want to know.

I want to know this.

She loves Jordan.

We beat him.

How is this- No, not only did he beat him, this is where he has these absolute mythical strokes of magic. Charlie, He literally hit eight free throws in a row.

Did you play basketball?

No, I played baseball. But I shot with dad in the backyard my whole life growing up.

Hit an 18-foot jumper in the two-on-two to win the game.

To seal it, yeah.

This is not a normal life.

He gets out of treatment. He's dead. One of his time is getting out of treatment. Dad picks him up. He wants to just watch baseball. He loves baseball. They stop by this place, and there's grown men playing a game of baseball in a league. Because they're them, all of a sudden, they let Charlie take an app back. First swing, out of treatment, life's over, home run. Of course, you're confused. Exactly. Of course, you're confused. You've got super powers, and then you're superhuman. You're extra human and you have a superpower.

It was a trip. This is too much to be holding all at once. That's a lot.

But on the drive back from the Jordan thing, I've got the scene with me. On Tuesday or maybe even Monday, I have to report back and do this thing. Yes. I read it with dad in the limo, just having done the Jordan thing, working on Buhler. We read it once. I didn't do anything with it. And he stopped me and said, That's it. You've nailed it. And I was confused. I was like, I did nothing. And he said, It took me 30 years to learn how not to do that. Wow. So that's what I walked in with. And I was really hoping that Hughes was going to be okay with this giant, very specific piece of advice. And he was. But of course, on the day, I overslept and I was 2 hours late. Really? Oh, wow.

Yeah, it was awful. This is an easy theory to make, and I want you to tell me if you think there's anything realistic to this, which is these things come incredibly easy to you, and something about the subconscious goes, this isn't right, and we're going to fix it. And the way we fix it is we're going to destroy it.

Some self-sabotage. Sure.

But this was, I think, before.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. But there's an inkling of it. It's like, how are you on time to get the job? You get the job too easy. You go win a game with Jordan. Somehow you can't fucking wake up on time. That's a good point. Why can't you wake up on time? Make a good point. You weren't late for the thing.

Yeah, that's true.

You weren't late for that. You know you got that too easy. And now we're like, you have a reason, but it's suspicious.

Yeah, it is suspicious, even sitting here today.

It doesn't make sense. Yeah. And a lot of your stuff doesn't make sense.

You can't draw it up. Right. You can't plan it.

If you feel fraudulent, self-sabotage definitely feeds into that, I think. If you have imposter syndrome, it's like, I don't really know if I deserve this, so I'm going to... I mean, it's all subconscious, not if it's conscious, but it's like, I might I need to put this really to the test.

Right. But another extension of that is when you're finally making a bunch of dough, not feeling put on like, Oh, now I have to pay for dinner, pay for cars, but wanting to. Oh, you can't wait to. Wanting to just give it away because now they're giving me too much. I'm being overpaid for what I believe my skill set is actually worth.

I got to redistribute this or it'll be totally crazy.

Exactly. Guilt. Yeah.

One of the things I didn't know about you that I got so excited to learn in the doc, and this is so frivolous, but my great, great obsession as a child, and to this day, is nick cage.

Oh, wow.

Where'd this guy come from? What planet did he drop in on? Nobody knows. Nobody knows. But you guys were best friends, yeah?

Yeah, and still are tight. Okay, great. We just don't see each other enough because he does more movies than anybody alive, doesn't he? That's right. Yeah, he's very prolific. How does he have the energy?

What a pair you two.

Yeah, and we were on this collision course. We found each other for a reason in the way that we did. It was just one of those nights out that I thought would be normal, and it was anything but.

What happened? Monica, you remember that my favorite story of him? The plane. Yeah. This is your pilot speaking. I'm not feeling well and I'm losing control of the airplane.

Wow.

Charlie had an eight ball tape to his leg.

Oh, man.

I didn't need to insult you. I'm so sorry. If it was an eight ball, I could have just had it in my breast pocket. It was a fat bag. I didn't want to have to take off my I was like, Oh, I've seen this in movies. I'll tape it down here. Sure.

Did it work?

It didn't work. No, it stayed. It stayed. It stayed. I just didn't know we would be encountering federal agents when we landed because of the thing that nick did.

Oh, he did that? Oh, that's what caused it.

Then- The travel companions.

We were just entertaining the airplane. Oh, yeah. That's one.

Two professional entertainers aboard. Exactly.

We were on the PA, but nick hadn't gone yet. There was five of us. We all took the mic and just said stupid things and got silly laughs. Then nick was last, and he said, This is your captain speaking. I'm not feeling well. I'm losing control of the aircraft. The airplane went on tilt. Freaked out.

Obviously.

Then the steward walks right up to him and goes, Not cool, man. Not cool.

Which sounds like, nick, not cool.

Exactly. Maybe he was trying to find that common language. Speak his language. It went from there. Luckily, they were fans. Another thing, a yield sign and not a stop sign, right?

Yes. The federal agents were fans?

Yeah. Of his films, of mine. They were like, All right, all right, let's just make sure you never do this again, guys.

Charlie got to fly an international airplane on the way home from Japan drunk.

Paris. Paris.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, the Honey Moon. It's all in the book and the doc.

You're so lucky to be alive. Do you feel that?

I do.

I was having this thought a few times watching where I was like, Man, what is that gap between Why didn't nick blow up? How can Sean be in the doc pen? And he didn't disintegrate. A lot of us played with fire. And what is that weird little smidgen between you You, Downey. But then these other guys who certainly were doing a lot, but they were just one standard deviation above where they coasted. It's not a huge gap.

Maybe they were still, are still getting that rush from from the work.

I don't think they feel as fraudulent.

Interesting.

I say that not knowing either of them. That's just my hunch.

Yeah, I think they were just doing it at a level that was so committed. It required a focus I was too lazy to tap into.

They probably care deeply about the quality of the work and maybe the accolades or being recognized as being very good. I don't know if you did or not.

They had set the bar really high for themselves to then have to top or at least create performances and find material that would be super unique, very challenging, and different from what they'd just done. I think they had access to better material. They were trusted more with the stuff that required that level. And good for them because that's the thing I would shy from. I would read a script that was really challenging and way outside. And get scared. Yeah.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Experts. If you dare. The other thing I would argue, in addition to being that focused on the commitment, is also whatever the pain and angst was, that level of medicating was enough for them to find comfort, and your level of pain and discomfort required the amount you were using.

It's not a one size fits all, is it?

It's not. What was the very hardest thing for you to talk about in the documentary?

It This is the sex stuff. Again, it was that thing of the way something exists up here and feels in here and finally comes out. It's the story I wrote about how I'd be judged, what was going to happen, what the results would be. None of it happened. It feels better out there than it did in there for so long.

It's so curious. I really mulled over. I'm like, Yeah, man, to say that, Hey, I've had sex with guys along the way. It's so weird because if I had met you as gay or met you as bi, there's nothing there. What's so weird or interesting is like, But I had him in this category. It speaks to how inflexible are. Well, this is a story because I had him in this category, and it's just a testament to how that aspect is interesting.

It was pretty crack-fueled. I don't say that to excuse it or be like, Oh, only that thing. Because even if there's an intense drug involved, it still has to open a door of a room that already exists, right? Maybe or maybe not.

Let me just give you one example. Our favorite podcast we've ever heard in our life we share it, is this episode of Radio Lab called Blame. This man who was married and happy and a normal guy, he got this procedure because he had epilepsy, and they cut a corridor in his brain so the two sides couldn't fight. Oh, damn. In the process of doing that, they cut the circuitry from your central brain, your pleasure, all that stuff, the circuitry to your frontal lobe that says, Oh, yeah, I desire that, but that's insane. We're not going to do that. That got caught. This woman who's lived with this husband gets a knock at the door. She goes downstairs. The Homeland Security is there because he is consuming a tremendous amount of pedophilia-child pornography. Child pornography. And she's like, What? That's not my husband. And as they point out in this book, that part of the brain, the reptilian brain, it just wants everything that's an option.

Basically, the part they tinkered with, released. He had no inhibition. And it's such an interesting question because it's like, is it his fault? They performed a surgery, and now he's different.

There's a medication that can put him back to normal, but he has to serve his time for this thing. Oh, seriously? Wow. Which he does, but it's a very complex- It's very complicated.

But the brain and chemicals, they really can change a person.

For sure. Crack, it ignites the reward circuitry, and you just get stuck in the reward circuitry. Sure. Honestly, anything's on the table. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Given a long enough time horizon.

Right. I use the metaphor of the menu that I exhausted one side of the menu, basically everything from every advertiser to every entree, every freaking, all of it, every dessert. Finally just went, Oh.

There's more on the back.

What's all this? Sure. The company I was keeping was mostly women in the adult film profession. They're doing jobs during the day and coming back telling stories about stuff that's only on that other side. Exactly. I'm like, Oh, wait. So you can put that? They're like, Of course we can. I didn't have to be done secretly. They were just part of it. All right, this is what we're doing.

Yes.

It was a relief to talk about it. I bet. The reason I did, for a couple of reasons, for myself, first and foremost, but prepping for the documentary, the director, Andrew Renzey, who I think is a freaking genius, Look what this guy put together. That's incredible. What the hell? He said, Look, man, at some point we got to get into this other thing. The amount of research, he scraped the internet or dove into it in a way like he was an AI program and found a lot of stories and rumors and stuff about me and said, Hey, this is stuff that people have talked about for a long time. How do you feel about us taking a peek at that? And I said, All right, sure. Good for you. Thank you. But because right when we finished my interviews for the doc is really when I was able to really sit down and start the book. I knew All right, so it's already going to be in the other thing, and if it's not here. And the other thing was that with that amount of crack, if that story or those experiences weren't part of that journey, people would be like, it usually goes there.

Yes.

This is what we know from being in the rooms. It's like you hear someone tell a story and you're like 90% there. It's like, well, that's interesting. A hundred out of a hundred other people end up cheating on their wives when they're in that situation. But you didn't.

Yeah. So I didn't want to create that vibe that something's things. Yeah. So there was that part of it. The way it is working out, I think it's cathartic. Yeah.

And it's humanizing. I think people-Right on.

Thank you.

Especially, celebrities and especially you, you've been splashed all over the news. People have ideas about you. And when they hear these stories, it's like, he's a person with some extraordinary life highlights.

I had a pretty good line on a show a few weeks ago. I said, well, I guess I just really wanted to have even more in common with Richard Friar, Marlon Brando, and Mick Jagger.

Exactly. All your heroes.

What are we doing? Okay, the part of the doc that was the hardest for me to watch was the 100 City Live Tour at the height of the Tigerblood mania. Yeah, that was awful. Is that the worst?

Yeah, that was hard for me to watch.

Because you're now confirming what you feared, which is your show sucked.

It was 21 cities. I'm sorry. It's all right. But in 30 days.

It's too much. You don't have a show. It hasn't been written. And guess what? You're dead in front of the people you're disappointing. And this fear that was in the back of your mind, the fucking shadow that's always told you you sucked, you're now sucking.

Oh, yeah. In real time.

I don't know how you continued to keep doing the I mean, of all the crazy endurance you have, that's the one where I'm watching that and I'm like, oh, my fucking God. If I had to go bomb every night.

Cringe city, yeah.

I might be suicidal. I know.

But did you care or were you like, you know what? I'm just going to go do drugs? Were you even present enough to care?

No, I was off all the drugs. Oh, you were. That's the thing. But I wasn't off a specific one, which was testosterone.

Your numbers were 4,000.

I mean, that's unheard of. Oh, my God. That's unheard of. It's a roid rage. That's really what that whole thing was. But I guess there were still traces because to just stop everything, just to prove a point, it still was in my system.

Your brain was not well.

No. Then I was adding crazy cream all over my body and then like, Well, let's take this thing on the road. Now, granted, I could have said, No, that's a bad idea. But then they start throwing out the numbers and they start feeding the ego. Then the first thing sells out in like 11 minutes. You're like, All right, okay. The people want to see this. They're like, See what? See what? Okay. Tried to build the show at my house for like a month. Oh, wow. Like all these brilliant comedic minds.

Todd was there, Phillips.

Yes. I wasn't listening to anybody. I was just going to do it my way. I'm going to wing it.

What was the pain of that on stage when the fun of it wore off, the rubber necking spectacle wore off? Sure. They're turning. They hate this. I'm stuck on the stage.

It was between cities. It was the trudge to the next city knowing. Dude, I can throw up. I know, right? Then they brought in Jeff Ross. Oh, thank God. Who brought comedy and just some life to it. But then he had other stuff he had to do. So we do five shows and people seem happier about it.

Less disappointed.

They didn't have to cut out. I'd be back on my own. And that's why in the book, I don't write about the tour. I write about on the Eve, what took place before the first show in Detroit. That's how I feel about the tour. I clogged the toilet in the hotel because I had been so backed up. And I had two girls in the other room that I was traveling with, and that drug keeps you very frisky, right? Yeah, sure.

Direct, we'll say.

Testosterone, that's literally the point of it.

The only way back to that fantasy was for that toilet to flush, and it wasn't. I had to build something to get to-Oh, boy. I know. But if you think about the symbology of everything, right?

It's 100 pounds of shit in a five-pound toilet. It is, yeah. It is, yeah.

It is, literally. That's why that is the only story about that freaking tour. Wow. Yeah. I'm glad that at least it's covered in the dark in a way where people can go on that journey.

I think if you're a performer, you're watching that and you're just like, Oh, my God, kill me. It's literally your nightmare when you get into this. You walked through a nightmare for a while.

That's interesting that you point that out. That killed me.

Wow. Because you're confirming the fear you've had since you were 20 years old. Interesting. Your subconscious, your shadow, you brought yourself to your greatest fear. I suck. You proved it to yourself. I did. It's not the embarrassment of this or the interview on the talk show. It's the actually bringing your fear to life in the most palpable, real way is wild, psychologically.

And making a false promise to those people that they were in for a night of fun and folly. That's why I descend it into just a pit of complete darkness and went silent after I got home from that. I thanked everybody for their time and just decided to enlist Just a whole new crew. And that's when all the other shit started. I needed to get so freaking numb.

I have three more questions I'm going to try to get in quick because you've given us so much your time and I love it. Thank you.

And I'm sorry that every question turns into this long- No, that's what we love.

No, that's what we love.

That actually never really even answers the fucking question.

No, it does.

This is exactly what we like.

The one question I have, and this is just nosy, but the one thing I was a little wanted from the doc, and I'm not to that point in the book, is what's happening financially? You made so much fucking money. Do you not still make a lot of money on two and a half, man? I don't. Were those buyouts of residuals?

Based on choices that I made during anger management, I came to this place where everybody thinks that, oh, because that contract and all this, I think I only did eight episodes at that fee. That crazy fee.

Okay.

Which is still more than- Sure.

Anyone deserves.

I had a crooked business manager at the time. I said, I haven't felt rich. I want to feel rich. So I want to buy an airplane. He's like, Well, no, just charter. I'm like, no, I got I can buy half of this one airplane. He's like, Well, the front or the back? Fuck off. I did that and I got this giant line of credit and then lived like a rock star.

A billionaire.

Yeah. Loved it until- I got to tell Monica, he was spending $15,000 to $30,000 a day on crack.

It was a lot.

Can you compute that? No. There was a moment, and it's in the doc, and it's pretty cool, and it's in the book, where my supplier, my middleman was a guy named Marco, a terrific guy. And his South of the border connection was where it was coming from. And they, at one point said, We got to talk to your guy because we didn't give him permission to be a dealer.

He's a customer, not a distributor.

Yeah, exactly. And it was this moment where we had to convince them. I'm smoking it. It's home for me. Yeah, they were like, Oh, okay. Well, jeez.

Carry on, good man. Is he okay?

But carry on, good man, for sure. Every fiddler at some point needs to get paid for those dances. It came time to pay off that line of credit. The only asset I had was my back end on two and a half, which would pay in increments quarterly. Six people had their hands in it. So by the time it got to me, it was still more money than- Anyone deserves. Yeah, 10,000 people could live on, but it still didn't Satisfy. Crazy. And so I chose to not be held hostage by the bank and just sold that and paid that and just wiped the slate.

I understand the decision.

Yeah. And the universe plays fair sometimes. And I think a lot of that stuff was taken from me because the excesses that it was funding. I was not a good steward of it.

The universe has a way of taking things away that you're not a good steward of.

I think the reduction, the night and day, like shutdown of that earning power or at least access to it. I think that's another thing that saved my life. When I quit drinking, I think it's covered differently in the book than it is in the doc. I was at a place where it was okay to just reattach myself to very basic things. At the same time, the most important people in my life, children, family, old friends. I didn't need that wealth to feel rich with all these kids who suddenly didn't care about a TV rating or a salary thing.

Well, you had this most beautiful moment in the doc, and this is where it's just absolutely gut-wrenching and beautiful, which is his daughter had to be somewhere, and he would never drive her drunk. He sent his driver, and he had joined her, and they're together with a driver.

It was Tony Todd. He was actually my best friend. Oh, yeah.

He was the most lovely guy. What this guy went through. What he's seen. Never, ever used and was along for the whole ride to make sure Charlie didn't die. Yeah. Beautiful dude.

That's so much.

It was a hair appointment that I had just completely forgotten about. I'm a Virgo, and I don't forget a lot of stuff. Sam. Yeah, but when you disappoint a child, that's the worst feeling in the world. When's your birthday?

August 24th.

Okay. I'm September third. Oh, close. It was just this moment coming home in the car. We were on time, thanks to Tony. Sam got her thing taken care of. I was in the front seat, and I could see her in the mirrors. I could see her on the side and also in the visor. I just saw her back there, and I'm not clairvoyant, but I could feel the thoughts about, why isn't it just me and dad? How old was she? Twelve or 13. Why isn't it just me and dad like it used to be? It had an awakening. I have to make a decision, decisions to never have this happen again. Like a sacred vow to the forces that I believe in. You can call it God? And did. There was another thing in the mix. That's what started. That was the catalyst for sure. It was that just one really beautiful, magical, cosmic freaking moment. It happened in such a simple circumstance.

It's not a third act resolution. It's not cinematic. It's so tiny. That somehow breaks through in that moment, which is suspicious and interesting.

Yeah, the biggest thing showed up in, I don't want to call it the smallest moment, but there's no yelling.

She didn't go, Dad, why don't you love me? You just looked at her and you saw it all.

Just knew. Then right after that, there had been some advances with the HIV meds. They said, Look, we want you to change your cocktail. We're going to shrink it and try these two new things. But here's the kicker. You can't drink on this one. The other, you could drink your face off. They weren't fine.

As you've been doing.

Why did they tell me that? Why did they tell me that? I said, All right, I'll not drink for a month and see how the pills are working. They were working great. I was like, Okay, let's do another month. That just turned into a thing. You were able to... Wow. Sam started it. But then this other thing that was like, my life was at stake. I'm not saying it wasn't with the other shit, but they showed up at the same time. I don't believe in coincidences.

You asked for help from the universe and it gave it to you.

Exactly.

Here's my hardest question.

Oh, Jesus.

This is the last one. Those were easy ones? I weeded out one of them. This is the last one. I am watching this, Doc, and I'm just falling in love with you. I know everyone that will watch it will fall in love with you. And I know everyone that will watch this will be in love with you. Right on. And the pattern is so insanely obvious. It's ridiculous. The pattern is you get a ton, you fucking obliterate. You got nothing. You somehow get a ton, you obliterate it. And so I'm watching it and I'm loving you. And I know how everyone's going to feel. And I know you're going to have another opportunity to go be brilliant on a sitcom. Thank you. Or a film. Or whatever it is. And that terrifies the fuck out of me. Interesting. Wow. I I'm so scared for you to be given all the shit again. Are you afraid of? I'm not. Has it crossed your mind? Of course. Okay.

Yeah. No, I'm cautious about it.

I even thought of my own role in this. Do I want to play a role in it?

And getting people to love you and root for you and let you be back up there where I do think you have the talent to be and deserve.

Do I want to play a role in that? I don't ever want to see you on TV again fucked up.

Me neither.

I literally had to think ethically like, do I want to be a part of this process? Because I now love this dude from afar.

Thank you. Wow. You understand that.

I know. Yeah.

I haven't been in a professional environment in a long time where I was there for all the right reasons that I was contributing in a high stakes creative environment.

With the right intention.

Yeah, man. It's not about proving it. It's just about feeling that again. By feeling that, I think there's proof in that that he's back here for the right reasons. I think the work will know that, whatever that work turns out to be.

Let's put it this way. We have a great adage in our secret society, which is doing the same thing over and over again and then expecting different results is the definition of insanity. So I guess my curiosity is as you enter into that, the game plan has to already be a place. Like, oh, what are we going to do differently this time? We're not going to wait till we're there to figure out what we're going to do differently. We're going to know what we're doing differently before we get there. It's not my place to challenge you like this. No, it's fine. As someone who loves you and is in this fellowship, I want to know that there's a game plan that we don't wait till we wake up.

Sure. I'm going to honor my word. That's what it comes down to. Honor my word to myself, honor my word to the job, to the people that are trusting me with that job. That's what's different. Things change at 60. It's like you start figuring out, okay, 10,000 days, what's that? It's like 27 years or something. How do I really want to spend those? Because I know what the other 10,000 looked like and how I felt and just what came out of that. It doesn't fit anymore. There's no place to do it sneakily. You know what I'm saying?

There's no place- There's no real estate for it.

No, you can't even carve out some niche or some opportunity or some secret moment. It can't be a part of it.

I just adore you. Oh, thank you.

Likewise.

You're so fucking lovable. And I'm just thrilled to see you doing so well. I really am. Thank you.

No, this is incredible.

I didn't even remember that you made a joke at my expense.

I'm thrilled that I got to close that.

Well, Charlie, I adore you. Please come back. This was so fun.

Yeah, come back. This was lovely. I'll come back, sure. I'll come back and talk about the thing that I didn't screw up. Yes. How about that?

That's right. I look forward to that.

That would be cool.

Yay. Thank you.

Stay tuned for the fact check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

Just got back from a hike.

Third, third morning in a row. Wow. Yeah.

Let's It's fun. A friend of the pod is visiting.

Yeah, one of my premier boyfriends.

Yeah, Vincent Dinafrio. My biggest and sweetest. Yeah, he's so nice.

Yeah. We were talking on the hike, and he was expressing some confusion by why any women have liked him? And I said, Oh, it couldn't be more obvious. It's so obvious.

He's such a nice boy.

He's so big and protective, yet you sense that he needs some nurturing.

Yeah, it's a good combo.

What could be more appealing?

Yeah, it's a very appealing combo.

I agree. I feel it towards him.

Yeah, I know.

God, is he a sweetheart?

Okay, well, I have something to talk about.

Oh, wonderful.

I'm going to the airport.

Oh, not wonderful. I'm sorry. I thought it might be something different.

It's okay. Oh, wonderful. It's okay. I'm going to the airport. Two things about that. One, I'm in my airport outfit.

It's very cute. Thank you. It's exceedingly cute outfit. You have your Polo bear sweat shirt on that you love.

You have to think things through when you like fashion and you go to the airport.

It's a big coming out party, right?

Yeah. People really dress specifically, and I never do that. I always just wear sweats. Yeah. But I've been thinking more about trying to look cute at the airport.

Sure. It's because it seems like a really fertile place for a meet cute. Exactly. Where you going to? There's all these built-in questions. Yeah. Maybe on the same page, like, Oh, I hate delays. Even better, you're delayed and you're watching someone lose their shit. And you look over and there's a cute guy who's also thinking, Oh, this person is beserking.

And you go like, I see you.

Yes. We recognize that. So now we're on the same team. We're on that we're sane team.

That's a great place to start. We're sane. But I don't want to be we're sane. I'm sane. We're sane. We're sane. Yes.

Same, sane.

And although I don't know about commiserating over someone else's misery.

Not their misery. Their behavior. Their shitty behavior towards the clerk at the gate, whatever we're calling it. Gate attendant?

Yeah, that's right. Injustice. Yes.

Or to be embarrassed for someone is good.

Sure.

I am in first class. If you saw someone yelling like, I paid $2,300 for this ticket. And you'd be like, and then you'd look over. You'd be going just like this. And you'd look over and the guy be like this. And then you go, Oh, this is cute.

We're both- What's your name? We're Paul.

What's your name anyways?

Anyways. Well, I hope that happens. That would be a great turn of events. Yes. But anyway, part of the Air Pro outfit situation for me, though, is I'm really not... I do... This maybe is the only time. I really prioritize comfort as well.

Of course. Yeah.

And so I have to wear some tennis-like shoes, some comfortable shoe and pockets. I had on other pants, and I realized, no, I had to put on these. These are less cute than the ones I had on. They're still cute pants.

I'm hard to believe, but okay.

They're still good pants.

They get your word.

But pocket.

What scares me about these trousers you're wearing is, sure, pockets, but so flowy. Doesn't everything fall immediately out of these pockets when you sit down? No.

And it's not mainly for the sitting. It's walking through the airport. I like to have my phone in my pocket, not in my bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And your ticket? Yeah, my ticket or my wallet.

Yeah.

Is that on site, Lita? Yeah. In my other pocket. Yeah. I don't know if we're allowed to say that anymore in 2025. But yeah, so I- When you're having your meet cute with the guy, I want you to go like, oh, my gosh, I'm so embarrassed.

You've caught me with my wallet in my pocket. And I don't want you to hold that against me. I don't normally- I don't normally do that. It's an airport thing?

What are your It's a four foot thing. Yeah.

Oh, wow, this is going to go good. And then you realize for that first time, he's holding a sphere or something, or whatever you call it, a staff. Oh. And he goes, this. And you're like, oh, my God, I didn't even see that. Yeah, you're holding a four foot staff.

What's that about? Right.

I thought you were just a lizard. Oh, my God. That's so exciting. I can't... Go ahead.

No, no, you can go ahead. We'll circle back.

No. I don't want to.

This is going to take up a lot of the conversation, so I assume this is probably not. Okay.

Have you seen the photos by chance of Eric's dad traveling the world.

Oh, some, yes.

Friend of the pot, Eric Richardson. Yes. His dad has just been gone for a year. He started in Ecuador for a while. He was living in Peru. Now, I got this picture of him in Egypt. Can you see that?

Oh, my gosh.

And he does walk with the staff.

Yeah, he does. Well, he's older. Yes.

And I'm going to show you one more. Look at this. And he's doing cute things. He's holding up glasses in front of the Sphynx.

He's doing such cute things. He's He's like, when you're like, pinching, you're... How do you say this?

There's like a force perspective where you are pinching something far in the distance.

Yeah, acting as if you're holding it. Yes.

And he's got sunglasses on the Sphynx. But I took a couple of look at those photos and I said, he is a wardrobe away from being a lizard. Look at this photo I made. Oh, you made that.

That's really cute.

Doesn't he look so cute as a lizard?

He does. Did you add the beard or was that- No, that's his real beard. Wow.

Yeah. All he has is a crushed felt cape and a crushed felt vest. So the first one I did, by the way, this was insanely easy. Okay.

First of all, I'm impressed. I assume you did this via AI? I did.

And I had never done this. I've had it create images like, I want a Chevy van with cool wheels. This was I uploaded the photo of him and I said, Can you put a Wizards cap and a purple cape on this man? Yeah. And within 25 seconds, there it was.

And It looks really good.

It looked really good. I was really proud of it. I sent it to Eric.

Yeah.

And then the second photo, I was like, I'm going to give this thing a little more libert. Instead of saying, I just said, make the man in this photo look like a wizard. And then AI put him in a vest and put a little glowing thing on his sphere. Did a great job. Wow. It looks like something someone great at Photoshop would have spent a week on.

Exactly. When you first said you made it- You were suspicious. Yeah. I was like, you made that?

That's It's not even fair to say I made it.

That's the ethics around this. But you did.

It didn't exist until I got involved. Exactly. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Just the staff made me think of that.

That's really funny. That's really cute. Well, it's actually a ding, ding, ding because Eric's dad is older and he's in Egypt. Yeah. He's out and about. He's really- He's a young friend. Yeah, he's a young friend, and he's not letting life get him down. He's pinching the pyramid. That's so wonderful. I know. I really love people who are really just taking life on.

And for me, it makes me really optimistic. Wait, I could have an adventure like that still in 40 years from now?

Exactly. It's very life-affirming. I love that. I have bad news, personally. There was a sudden, pretty tragic death in my family on my dad's side. My aunt drowned. It's a really weird thing to say. It is.

My first question to you was like, is there foul play? That's so weird.

Yeah. And of course, they did have to rule that out. She was older, too, but also very Eric's dad. She would travel all the time, and she was very vital and enjoying life. It was just very shocking on so many levels. Jarring. Yes. My parents had just seen her a couple months ago, and she was... Thriving. Yeah. My mom, I'm so bad at this. When I'm sleeping, I don't hear the phone ringing. I just don't hear it. I didn't hear it. They obviously called me, and then I woke up to text, of course, and my mom was like, Aunt Lily died. I'm named after her. Yeah. Call me. I was like, of course, expecting some heart attack or more natural cause. Of course, it's all very shocking. Everyone's in shock, and I'm leaving today, obviously, to go be with my family.

In the great state of Washington? Yes.

That's where she lived and where her daughter lives.

You're going at the perfect time of year. Not to put- Yeah, I think it'll be nice. No, they always... September is always the nicest month in Washington. Okay, that's nice. It's their It's very Indian summer, always there.

Wow, Indian ding, ding, ding, ding.

Oh, wow. Double on time, girl.

Yeah, she was Indian. She was Indian. For people who don't know. But yeah, so it's been a lot to process and deal with But she really is an inspiration. She was a single lady. She did a lot of things- Very successful. Extremely successful. She came this country. She went to the best business school in India. And she came to this country, and she started all these businesses, and she was very successful. She brought my dad over. She shepherded him.

As much as I know about your family, this was a revelation when you told me she had come first and brought your dad over. Since you've told me that, it's funny what little details can all of a sudden explain so much. There's a lot about your dad that was an enigma to me. And not knowing that piece of the puzzle. This is like, Saul. His respect and deference for women.

Yes.

Don't kill me. Coming from a culture that maybe sometimes that's not the...

Sure.

I just think he's uniquely not threatened by a strong woman. His wife was a gangster, and he supported it. And I'm like, oh, yeah, he had a badass sister who actually paved the for him to come here? Yes. Now I get it.

Yeah, that is correct. And mother who allowed all that to happen, too. But yeah, my dad is a little brother. He's the youngest of all these kids. He's little brother energy. You should like it more than that. I hate it. But I can still eye roll at it. But I like that he's a little brother.

So he and Neil must have a shared language language to some degree.

Well, they have older sisters, older successful sisters. Yeah. You must see Neil in a unique way. Probably. I've never even really thought about that. I don't know if he's even thought about that.

I see Delta in a unique way because I was a little sibling, and I know what she's going through.

Yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah, probably. But yeah, he obviously has a very I'm in a special relationship with her. And then I'm worried about my dad, and it's all... It's just all. It's so much. And then there's guilt because I'm like, Oh, I get mad at all of it. This is so upsetting. Why did this happen? This is inconvenient. Sure. Death is really inconvenient.

It rarely falls on spring break.

And then that's inconvenient in its own way.

It's not- There's never a great time.

There's never a great time.

Let's take one second, though. If we had to pick- The time. I have the time for me.

Okay.

January second. It's already- Your birthday? Yeah, but it's already the shittiest day. Everyone's already like, you've already had all the fun you can have, and it feels so long before you're going to have something fun again. It's like, yeah, let's just throw it in there because it's already going to be a slump. So let's just do it then. I think I think that's the ideal. You don't want it leading in the summer. You don't want it over one of the holidays. What about the third?

So at least you got one more. You were one age older.

That's fine. Well, I would still be one age older on the second because that's officially- I don't know if I count it. We don't want to ruin New Year's Day. No. We got to watch football that day. The second is the shittiest day of the year. I think, objectively- No, I don't like any of this because then it's like the year starts with this horrible thing.

Then in my head, I'm like, this is the worst year. It's a bad year.

That's a fair pushback.

So maybe the 31st Or well, maybe the funeral on the 31st so that you can start- On New Year's Eve?

Well, I just want to- No one wants to go to a funeral on New Year's Eve. You want to go to a great meal.

Because I just want the New Year to start clean.

Clean. Okay.

Okay. Now, I hate what we just did. Okay, so please back on it.

My pitch is January second or late April in Michigan, when it's like you thought summer came and then it didn't. Now the winner's back, and you're already like, fuck all this. Again, throw it there where you're already going to be miserable. So just cap out the misery when you're already experiencing it. Don't taint any of the joy. Okay. Put it all in one bag.

I see what you mean, but also it could really push someone over the edge if they're already feeling miserable. To the breaking point. Yeah. I think we need to rethink some of it.

Although, okay, this is fun. I think there's a limit of how shitty you can feel. I've hit it before, right? It's like, I feel so shitty.

Yeah.

And then I'm just at the bottom for long enough that I go, I don't even know what the actual switch is that flips, but I go, yeah, that's it. I can't feel any better, and I can't feel any better any longer. I just almost like, I get fatigued of being What you mean so shitty.

Yeah, but I know what you mean, and I have felt that, but I have thought, if one more thing happens, my body will not be able to take it. I can feel my nervous system is really teetering. If we get another something- Critical mass. I don't know. Then I'll die, and then my dad will be, Oh, my God. Imagine that.

No, that's I don't even ever. You're knocking on a lot of things that don't necessarily deserve knocking, but that one shouldn't be said.

I'm just saying, whatever. Anywho, so she was very special to him and very special in in general, and she did things her own way, and she did a lot of things Indian people don't do. She got divorced. Yeah, good for her. She was very independent, had these houses, died her hair, fun colors. She's just a very unique woman.

She ever shave her sides?

She would have. She definitely would have.

We should have had a meal or something.

Yeah. Yeah. Very spunky. And it's not really lost on me that I have a lot of that. And that makes me feel proud. But also I'm like, oh, my God, because I'm not going to get into the details of the drowning, obviously. But she did things her own way, and she decided to do things that maybe were not advisable.

You know I'm going this way, too.

I mean- No, You can't. This is a cautionary tale.

You know I'm going to be 96. I'm like, I can hang glide. I never tried it.

Exactly. This is cautionary tale time because I… But whatever. I guess it's like- No, right?

Because that's what got her to this place where you admire her.

I know. That's exactly the whole thing. It's like this thing. Kat's two, two. Yes. This thing that made her live this very special life is also the thing that- May have taken her down. Yes. But for her, and that's probably the way she would have wanted it. I mean, I don't think anyone would ever want to drown. I mean, that's the thing that's, I think, messing with everyone's heads so much is there was likely suffering.

We can imagine how much suffering there would be.

Exactly.

And that's horrible. That's brutal. But someone with what I feel like I understand her personality to be and mine. If I have the choice of going out in control, something I chose to do versus some crazy disease that just snacks my dad, right? Like three months goodbye. Yeah, I'd rather die a year earlier and have it on my terms for me.

I mean, I hear you. I I think, again, there's just so many different personalities. I don't think she probably felt in control when she was drowning.

No, but she died by a decision she made, not that the universe made for her.

That's right. And in some ways, what's what? The universe did make it. I don't know. I don't know either. And it's been really interesting because my aunt, this aunt, aunt Lily, and my grandpa on my mom's side, sorry, on my mom's side, who passed away a couple of years ago, who I was very, very close with. They are the reason my parents are married. They met through work, and they were like, let's- They started meddling. Yeah. Let's put these two people together. They might be a good fit. And then my cousin- Do you think they shook on it? Well, no. My cousin sent me She found this letter. It was from my grandpa to my aunt. Oh, wow. And it has a picture of my mom. And it's so special. And it is like- Was he saying what a great catch she would be? I also can't read it very well. It's very scrawly handwriting, so I'm only making out certain words. But you can like, My daughter and my dad's name's in there. And It's basically like, let's have them meet and then see if they're compatible, and then it's up to them. So it was this half arrangement.

But it's so weird to see that piece of history. And Even the times are just so different. Like, yeah, if they were now, none of this probably would have happened.

They would have gone on each other's Instagram and find four things they don't... They decide we're deal breakers.

Exactly. Yeah. It's like this It's an origin story, and it's so wild. I really hope- You should write something about it.

It feels like there's fun pieces in there to write.

Yeah. But they're both gone now, both of those people, and But it led to this beautiful thing. Yeah. And it's special. And to you. I know. Wouldn't be here without those two.

When you're at the memorial, will you say, My friend Dax wanted to thank you for pulling him out of the financial shadow he lived under his wife.

Maybe you can send me that in a text. I don't know if I'll be able to remember it. I'll pull up my phone and I'll read it. I had a friend say, I thought very poignantly, When someone exits the physical world, it really just unearths all the ghosts for the people still here. She's like, That's the haunting. It's not the person coming back. It's all your stuff coming up. And I was like, That's right.

Yeah.

So anyway, that's that. I'm going to go. We're going to celebrate her life.

Great. What is it? Following the guidelines of any existing tradition, or will this be its own thing?

I'm not sure.

Okay.

Well, I'll find out. Anyway, so that's my update.

Yeah, that's a big update.

It's a big update, but got to be grateful.

Can't imagine you were in a state of mind to go do this, but you didn't happen to see one problem after another, did you?

I'm dying to see it.

I saw it yesterday. One battle? One battle. Sorry. One battle after another. Did you see it, Rob? Yeah, I saw it. Did you love it? Yeah, I loved it. It's fucking awesome, man. On a bunch of levels, one, the acting's insane. And this Leonardo Degas, I don't say anything new, but my God, he just will not I quit being fucking brilliant. So brilliant.

Does it move fast? Because it's long, and I have some aversion now to long movies.

I could not tell it was long. Okay, great. I had not looked at the run time before I went, but it is a mega movie. There's so much in it. What were you about to say, Rob? The music in it is incredible, too. Music was incredible. It's Johnny Greenwood that did it from Radiohead.

Oh, cool.

Yeah, music's awesome. The needle drops are awesome. Like, Steely Danz in it. It's great. Benitzio is fucking awesome. Sean Penn is insane. He's absolutely insane. And then, of course, it's a Daddy daughter story, which I didn't even know going in. Yeah. And so, sure, we get to the end of the movie. Oh, no. And I'm like- Don't spoil. I'm not spoiling anything. I just know that I was like, watching, watching. I was like, I lean over to Eric and I go, I cannot do these daddy-daughter things. I'm like, interstellar. I didn't understand one thing that was going on, but I knew that he was going to miss his daughter's life, and I was heartbroken.

Oh my God. Interstellar is the most devastating. It's such an intense movie.

And I don't even know what's going on, but I know- I know.

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter because there's a Daddy Dollar thing happening, and there's one in this. So it's like, I'm not even sure how... When I recommend it, I'm like, I don't I was moved beyond belief because there isn't anywhere someone could hide on planet Earth.

I feel bad for... Oh, sorry, Rob. Dads and sons. Dads and sons don't get the same treatment, and it doesn't mean- It's a different thing.

We get adolescents.

Oh, my gosh. That's the reward. Oh, no.

We get adolescents.

Yeah. It's not fair because It's not fair because it's not true. Sons and dads, it's different, but it's still, it's such an important, oh my God, relationship.

What's cool about father-son, with the potentials that's there, is that you can idolize your dad. That's sad. Yeah. And you can have this little boy who's trying to grow up and be like you, which is so moving, I think. I don't have that piece, which sounds fun a little bit.

Well, okay, I take it all back. Beautiful boy.

Yes. But again, that's adolescence.

I know. God, it's true. All those stories are just- Yeah.

I was racking my brain. And then I just thought of the other thing, which is like hit runs on Netflix now. Oh, I know. It's so exciting. Which made me so happy. I was so happy to be able to go to Netflix and hit play on the movie. That's awesome. And I wanted to just hit play on the movie. Yes. And then I got completely sucked in. And then the family got sucked in, and we watched it again. It was so fun. And then I was even at the end of it, I was like, it's so weird. I chose to do Father's Son in that, which is interesting. And I think after seeing the other movie last night, I'm like, I'm not really sure why that was my-well, the kids weren't born. The kids weren't born. I obviously had unresolved stuff with my dad, I guess. My dad sees me in that movie, the first thing he does is punches me. But I just was like, oh, this is really weird. I don't know that you know what you're processing when you're doing stuff. Yeah. And then after, maybe it makes sense. And maybe even that's bullshit, the way you make it makes sense.

But I don't know. I just like, Oh, that's so interesting that that was the device I decided to use to let Annie see Charlie again in a different way as opposed to doing it with his mom, per se. Yeah. I don't even know if Charlie has a mom in that movie. That's not even the thing I even decided as a writer, right?

Yeah. I think there's a trope, but based on reality that sons and dads can have... Conflict. That's complicated, and moms and daughters, that's complicated. Yeah. So it makes sense in a story when it's complicated.

And you want conflict.

Yeah. And I think maybe, even though, again, this isn't true, like Rain Wilson's story, you might be like, A mom wouldn't not want to see the son, or, Oh, that It's harder to believe. Yes.

Even though that's not true. Even though that's not true. Even though that's not true. But yeah, fathers and sons can get in these wars. Or it's just two proud males. And in a weird way, you're always fighting over a masculine When does that torch pass? When do you see me as a real man? Then part of the definition of being a man is like, I don't apologize. It's just so ripe for- There's proving something because I think when you're a boy to a mom, you can always be a boy.

Yes. But you don't feel like you can be that with a dad, but you can.

You're trying to show your dad you're a man. You want him to look at you and go, You did it. You're a man, and I'm proud of the man you are. And then you think the way you'll prove that to him is you will challenge him. Right.

Which is not...

It doesn't go well. It doesn't go well.

It doesn't tend to go well. Yeah. Yeah.

Boy, I don't...

When I'm excited to see that movie, I'm really excited. He's excited.

It's so good.

It's so good. Oh, yeah.

Fuck, it's so good. It kills me that we'll probably never talk to Leo. You know he went on New Heights. But he did.

With Benicio.

With Benicio, and he went on Marc Maron with Brad.

Oh, yeah. A long time ago.

It seems like clear he'll never do a one on one. I don't know.

I mean, I'm not going to give up on the dream.

A lot of dreams have come true, so who knows?

Yeah, that's right.

But there's a couple of people that I just want to flate. I want them to come in and I want to blow them for two hours.

Yeah, but we also need to ask them questions.

I'll do that. You can handle that. But I want to do that to Tom Cruise. I want to have him on and not talk about Saint Paul, the only other stuff everyone wants. I want to tell him what a gift he's given this country for the last 35 years.

Well, that is fine. But also remember that when we started this, we were like, doesn't matter. The top of the mountain is not interesting. It's It's all these other things. It's the human things. I don't want him to come on and we berate him about Scientology, but I want to know about him.

I do, too. But let's just say if we do a thousand of these and five of them are just a celebration of somebody, I also don't mind that. Wow. I don't feel like I'll be betraying the covenant so much.

I have so much curiosity about who they are without that layer.

Yes. And generally, that's my curiosity. But it is interesting. There are a handful of people that I am actually so blown away with their work that I'm interested in it because I'm not interested in someone's acting. I don't really care because I do the thing, and I don't think it's that incredible. But when I think of what Tom Cruise has done so consistently, and this thing that Adam Scott told me, when we were bonding over our obsession with him, and Adam said, his unique talent, and I think he said what he does better than anyone's ever done it, is he is not acting for himself or for the director, for anything. He's acting for the audience, and he understands exactly what the audience needs in every moment. His mastery of understanding what it's going to be when you're sitting in a seat and watching it on a big screen is like something no one's ever had. And I want to know how he gets to that. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Leo, I'm quite interested because what I've been able to gather in my fascination with him is he's not a huge acting technique guy.

And that between takes, he's just totally back to normal immediately. And then it's action. He can pop into that. Does he think there might just be Matt? How can he do what he does? I'm very curious.

Well, I imagine. I mean, he's been doing this for so long at such a high level. Gilbert Grape is a- Two or the fours. Yeah. Acting job for an adult that would be impossible to pull off. And he did it as a kid. So I think he's probably had a lot of reinforcement that I can do it.

Yes. And I read an interview around that time. It was when he had done This Boy's Life, the Tobias Wolf book. I loved that movie. I had read that De Niro would get frustrated with him because De Niro needs to be grinding and working and processing. And they'd be between these really heavy scenes. And as soon as Leo would be pulling a prank on somebody. De Niro was like, focus. He thought he needed to teach this kid to focus, but he didn't need to. Because somehow Leo could just always be there.

He has trust in himself.

I think he might be like a God, like he's an acting God. He has a different... Or maybe he's got a 47th chromosome or something. There's some mystery there that I need to know about.

That's what I want to know, but I don't think that's going to... I think we'd find that out in his family. We'd run out of it. I wanted to know about his family. That's the answer.

Now, Leo is different than Tom. Yeah. Leo, I do want it because Leo is a punk kid on the Hollywood streets, and that, of course, fascinates me greatly. That's interesting. Yeah. He's an unlikely He still looks so good.

It's so annoying.

Yeah, he's a stud.

I know, but like- Enough already? Well, no, because he only dates these young people.

I don't know if we dare. There are so many people that are really mad about that. It's generally now when his name is brought up, it's like everyone- It's always. They've really latched on to that. I understand it. But then there is also a part of me that believes greatly in liberty. So it's like, If this 23-year-old girl is dying to be with him, and he is dying to be with her, I'm not really seeing the moral conundrum here. No one's saying- It's not like he was 17-year-olds.

No one is saying that he shouldn't be allowed. The thing is, how can you be this age? I mean, we've talked about this about other people, right?

I couldn't date a 22-year-old, personally.

Yes. And I think you've said about other people who you know well, what it means But can I really quickly put a caveat on that?

Yeah. My issue there, because yes, I have said between you and I, friends of mine. My issue there is they have a claimed goal of having a family, and then their actions don't match that at all. Because they shouldn't start a family with someone who's 22. They should start a family with someone that's around their age and at that point in their life.

Right.

So my issue with that is, don't act like you want this and then do the opposite of how you would get there.

Sure.

But it's not a judgment of people are hot for each other, man. I don't know how one has an issue with that.

It's not an issue. It's not. Everyone can do whatever they want. But the older you get, the more you understand how different younger people are than you, even me.

Unless he hasn't matured.

But that's the whole thing. That's really what it's saying is, are you... He said that, I guess. He said, I have the emotional maturity of a 30-something.

The limited stuff I see in between movies, he is at nightclubs and stuff.

Is he still?

I think so. I'm like, Yeah, this guy's a kid, and he goes and pretends at work, and then he gets off and then he acts.

Yeah, I don't- Yeah, but all that, that's fascinating for people, right?

Is it possible, though, that this is what the deep thing is going on? I'm really afraid to even suggest this, but I'm just going to ask you what you think. Okay. What is deeply unfair in life on this planet is that as men age, their options don't diminish, and as women age, their options diminish. It's completely unjust and unfair.

Right. That's definitely at play.

And so is it possible that for women, when they see him with this young person, what it's really reminding them of is this injustice that they're not allowed to maintain their appeal and attractiveness as they age, yet men are. And as he may be shouldering- Well, it's just the world doesn't look at women that way. Everyone's aging.

Yes.

And I'm agreeing. It's like it's an injustice. It is not fair that men can still play sex symbols in their 60s, and they don't let women do that. Yeah. More and more so. That's deeply unfair. I totally agree with that. But are we asking this one person to shoulder the weight of that anger? Sure. And I also I don't know that I agree with that. And I think of the 24-year-old super hot for Leo, which I believe she is.

Yeah, I believe she is. He's not coercing anyone. No one thinks that. But I think two things are happening. One, yes, I'm sure that's at play. But I do think, and not for everyone, but I do think for a lot of people, when they hear that, they're like, Oh, man. There's a little bit of like, Oh, he's not a serious person. That's like a mean thing to say, and I don't know that it's true. But yes, how old is he? My age. He's 50. He's 50. Okay. So if he's 50 and he's only dating 25 and younger, there's a sense of like, Oh, my idea of him is not what he is.

He's not where you want him to be?

Yeah, exactly. There's like, disappointment. That's not on him.

It's not.

He's living his own life.

Where I think people have a business in complaining or judging is in movies when they can... When you watch movies from the '80s and '90s, it's just laughable now that we're aware of it. It's like every single... Like, Harrison Ford in every movie is with someone 25 years younger. He's married to someone. So, yes, there's this crazy history of the '80s and '90s and early 2000s, where it's almost it's a given that the 55-year-old male actor is going to have a wife who's 30. Every one of the movies.

Yeah.

And so that, to me, is a very legitimate complaint. It's like, this is the workplace. This is these people's chosen profession. The older actors are suffering because you will refuse to cast people of the same age. There is a workplace in justice in that. And I think that's worth being really revved up about. But I think for people in their own life, again, I'd be embarrassed, but that's me. That's my personal decision. That's how I choose to live my life. I would feel silly showing up at a red carpet with a 19-year-old, personally.

Yeah. And that's what people are feeling.

Because my image of myself that's incompatible with. Yes. But if someone else, if everyone's honky-dory in the situation- Yeah.

If everyone's consenting, again, I don't think he needs to go to jail for this. It's just like, it's just something that I think people feel that they can call out and make fun of because it's a bit... It's a pattern, and it feels interesting to people and telling, I guess. I think people are just like, Oh, that's telling. I would love to go on a date with him.

See, that's my point. A lot of the people I hear that are upset- I'm 38. Yeah. But trust me, if you and I were talking when you were 24, you'd be like, I'll go on a date with him.

Oh, yeah. No, I know.

But so it's interesting when I hear a lot of people that are really judgmental of him, I'm like, also, well, she, you'd go on a date with him, too. And most young people would.

Again, Again, though, they're not judging the daughter. I almost said- His daughter. Which, by the way, his daughter in this movie, I think, is 25. Oh, she is? Yeah. Here's the other thing. I don't know. We don't need to try to find out. But I haven't heard that any of these women feel used.

No, he doesn't have a gaggle of people that feel scorn by him. They all seem to be pretty- That's telling, too.

It doesn't, again, it doesn't seem like he just wants them necessarily as arm candy. I don't know what's going on with them, but that's why he has to come on and tell us. And I don't care about the movies. I want to know what is going on And also, does he want to date me? I look quite young. So maybe this is the best of both worlds because I am appropriate age.

I mean, is.

I'm an appropriate age. And And I have a year left to give him children if he would like that.

That's the other thing. It seems to me he doesn't want that. I don't think he wants that.

So who cares? Oh, no, he doesn't have to want that. But it is just like, what do they talk about? He doesn't know about these. They're not living in the same.

I just think people are more wound up about it than they should be. That's my take. Because I'll talk to people. I was somewhere this summer and this older guy He's like, Do you see Leo's new girlfriend? And I'm like, No. I mean, this guy. And I'm like, Why could you possibly care?

Of course, everyone's projecting. So, yeah, women have their own projections, but men have their own projections, too, because if they can't But they're like, I can't date someone like that.

A, I can't have that, and so he shouldn't. Two, I have a daughter. I would be disgusted if my daughter was with this old man or that this old man was with my daughter. Grant your daughter her a I'm like, if one of my kids is hot for a dude that's older, that's none of my fucking business. They get to be attracted, whatever they want.

Yeah, but you might be like...

My only fear would be like, Hon, if you guys go the distance at 30 years old, you're going to be walking him through hospice. Right. And then you're going to be at this age when you're reentering life. That would be the only thing I would want you to acknowledge is the unavoidable end to this. That would concern me.

I think you also might be concerned if she feels she's in love with him, and you are like, maybe, I don't know if that person is type of person who's going to call in love. If we look at their pattern. Let's look at the pattern. You're all in.

Odds are 34. You might be given your dismissal papers. Yes.

And that as a dad- As long as you go into it with full awareness. Right. But I think as a dad, that's hard to watch your kid be in love with someone that you know. Some old guy gobble up there. Yeah. They're you.

Yes. Maybe hard to watch, but I just know better. I know that I would have never listen to my parents tell me who I should or shouldn't be attracted to or date. So knowing that I would never waste a minute of my time.

Well, I'm not saying you should waste, but I don't think we can discount that you might have feelings around it. And I think that's okay. Okay, we're going to wrap it up because I got to go. But also, I think on this episode, I'd love to end it. I want to play a clip, the trailer of Bethsted.

Oh, yes. Great.

Bethsted is the podcast I talked about last week, I think, or a couple of weeks ago with Elizabeth and Andy from.

You've worked so, so hard on it, all of you.

Worked so hard. It's a very special project, and it's true crimey, and it's Nancy Drew, and it's really fun. It's 10 episodes, and not to make this complicated, but they're going to be available all All on Patreon for people to binge if they want. It's a very binge-y show, and that's six dollars if you want to do that. Very reasonable. Very reasonable. And also there'll be extra stuff. We'll do Q&A's, we'll do other stuff, and that'll be really fun. But also, if you don't want to, it will all be out. It'll start coming out the 30th weekly. Okay, great. So if you want to wait for that for free, you can do that, too. But I recommend The Binch.

For 60 cents an episode, fucking go crazy. I'm just going to say it.

But, yeah, here's the trailer.

Okay, great.

I'm I'm really excited because we have Elizabeth and Andy from my favorite podcast, Nobody's Listening, Right? I have you guys here because you took something away from me, and I never knew why you guys went off the air.

Elizabeth, I wish I could give you a hug so bad right now.

My husband told me that you, Elizabeth, were one of this biggest- Elizabeth, I'm surprised to have not heard from you about this development. This makes me worry for you. Do I use a different- Hello, Earthbare. Which absolutely- This makes me worry for you. Are you all right?

Andy didn't realize at the time, I was also responding to all these people.

Who would write in with questions.

Oh, my God. The subject of the email is, You may recognize my vagina.

I went through my notes this morning, and I was getting teary-eyed how upsetting it was.

So I got this email. This is Beth's brother.

Just after 4: 00 AM, my amazing sister, Beth, passed away. We were all completely devastated.

I think by this point, I was like, This feels dangerous. I probably wished I hadn't gotten involved beyond just the podcast, but I had already committed myself. Revisiting this has made me uneasy, and then I'm like, If I'm going to find out a bunch of bad shit, is it going to make me feel more unease?

I can't really get it out of my head that I think we need to attempt to make contact Okay, I want to burf. Okay, deep breath, deep breath. Okay.

First time I've ever received an amends in an interview.

I know. That was very sweet. It was really funny, for usual. I had an idea, had an idea of what it was going to be. Sure. And I was, honestly, I hate this. I was scared of him. Sure. I even was like, Oh, maybe I won't walk in early. I'll wait. Because he was here early, and I got here early, and I was like, Maybe I'll just wait till Dax goes in. But then I was like, No, it's fine. And then as soon as I walked in, he introduced himself to me, and it was so warm and nice. And sweet.

He just reeks sweet.

Yeah. And I said, I'm Monica. I'm the co-host. He said, I know. I was like, Oh, you did your research. I was like, Well, I read the thing they sent me. I was like, Oh, great. So, yeah, it was not what I expected. And It was so lovely and sweet, and I really enjoyed it a lot.

And we could have done 15 hours with them. I mean, as you'll see when you watch the doc, you got like 1% of the stories. Yeah.

Okay. Couple of facts, not very many, but a couple.

Really quick. I was hiking with Dinafrio, and he had watched it. And I said, it's hard to give someone this crown in the history of show business. But I don't think anyone's ever gone harder. Yeah. I mean, what an accomplishment in its own right. I mean, I- Given the competition.

Right. I'm shocked. I'm so happy that he's made it through. With us. Yeah, it's really harrowing. Okay, he said, If you get hypnotized, you can't be used as a witness in a case. Yeah, that's what he thought. Yeah, that's what he thought. I checked. It says, no, being hypnotized does not automatically disqualify someone from being a witness in court. But the fact of hypnosis can affect the witness's credibility and the admissibility of the hypnotically refreshed testimony, which is often viewed as inherently unreliable. Okay, so it is a little tricky.

Yeah, it could render his testimony useless.

Exactly.

Which is really interesting. Do you happen to read the New York Times article this weekend about this person who wrote a book who had memories that they uncovered during MDMA therapy?

No.

Very fascinating article. Yeah.

Well, that goes against what we've heard about repressed memories.

Yeah. I'll send you the article.

Yeah, I want to read it. Now, what is the correct way of typing called? Touch typing.

That's not what I was thinking.

Technique of typing without looking at the keyboard by relying on muscle memory to locate the keys. This method involves using all 10 fingers and resting them on the home row keys.

Thank you. Home row keys.

Asdf for the left hand and JKL for the right-hand.

Jkl, Jimmy Kim Alive. Oh, my God.

Wow. There was a statement said that nick Cage does more movies than Anyone Alive. Obviously, that's an exaggeration. But I did. Then I got curious who is credited with the most. It's Eric Roberts.

Oh, wow. Julia Roberts' brother.

Eric Roberts is often cited as the American actor with the most film credits.

I can do an impersonation of him, but I have to block myself from Okay. They took my fucking thumbs, Johnny. Wow. Yeah, that's a pretty good Eric Roberts in the Pope of Grunge village. Okay, wow.

In the Pope of Greenwich village. Oh, my. He has over 450 film credits and 191 TV credits. Wow.

Yeah. Busy, busy, busy. Busy B. Think of what his residual statement looks like.

Yeah. By the way, this is American Actors. Congrats Eric Roberts.

Do we know how many nick has been in? He's never done TV, to my knowledge. It would only be films.

How many credits does nick cage have? 116 or more. That's not helpful. Okay.

Yeah, I got at least 119. That's a lot. It's a lot. It's a lot. It mostly, I think I'm only starring roles. It's not like- Yeah, probably. Like, mine's more than it should be because I'm like, guessing once in a while here and there. I come into a movie and say one line because it's not real.

Yeah. Well, it's real, but it's- It's just not- It's not the same.

Not 116 lead roles.

Yeah, that's pretty wild. And that's it.

Okay. Love you. Yeah.

Love you.

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