Transcript of Andy Roddick (former professional tennis player)

Wndri Plus subscribers can listen to Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now. Join WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple podcast, or you can listen for free wherever you get your podcast. Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Sheppard, and I'm joined by Lily Patman. Hi. Today we have Andy Rodekon. If anyone was curious who this sexy guest was who sweat a little bit, this is it.

He's He was very- Go ahead.

Go all the way.

He's just a very attractive person in general. He's very sexy. He looks attractive, he sounds attractive, and he is attractive.

And as it turns out, he's attractive. Yeah, I was absolutely charmed in no end by Andy. I really just thought he was spectacular.

He was very easy to talk to.

Yes, yes, yes. He's not just easy on the eyes. He's very easy on the ears. Andy Roddick is a tennis champion, former World number one and US Open champion. Three-time Wimbledon finalist, and a 2017 first ballot inductee into the International Tennis Hall of Fame. He has a podcast called Served with Andy Roddick, which is the best tennis podcast out there. You can watch it on YouTube or listen wherever you get your pods. Please enjoy our new boyfriend, Andy Rodick.

Hello, I'm John Robbins, comedian and host of WNDRI's How Do You Cope podcast. I'm also, Plot Twist, an alcoholic.

I've written a book, Thirst: Twelve Drinks That Change My Life, published by Penguin.

Thirst is a book about alcohol. It's mystery, it's terror, it's havoc, it's strange meditations. But, John, I hear you cry. Isn't that a rather odd book to write for a sober man who, more than anything, wants to stop thinking about alcohol? Well, yes, but I had to go back to find out why the one thing I know will kill me still calls out across the night. It's the story of what alcohol did for me and what alcohol did to me. If that's of interest to you or someone you know, Thirst, 12 Drinks That Change My Life is available to pre order now online and from all good bookshops. I'm John Robbins, and on my podcast, I sit down with incredible people to ask the very simple question, How do you cope? From confronting grief and mental health struggles to finding strength in failure. Every episode is a raw and honest exploration of what it means to be human.

It's not always easy, but it's always real. We Whether you're looking for inspiration, comfort, or just a reminder that you're not alone in life's messier moments, join me on How Do You Cope.

Follow now wherever you get your podcasts or listen to episodes early and ad free on WNDRI Plus. How Do You Cope is brought to you by Audible, who make it easy to embark on a wellness journey that fits your life with thousands of audiobooks, guided meditations, and motivational series. Wow.

This is charming, my God.

This is me, exactly. Just straight to the fucking up. Waste no time.

I never offer this to drivers when they're in the driveway. Sure. I don't know why, but we're walking by. Hey, brother, there's a urinal in the garage. If you need that, it's unlocked. He was Oh, okay. He was really holding it in.

Oh, my God. He was bottled up.

He was. The love, he was about to break. You could sense it. I didn't know I had that ability, but here we are.

That's like a superpower you didn't know you had.

That's a good thing to say out loud to people because you don't think about it, maybe. It's like a dick thing to not think about, right?

And what was that guy going to do for the next 2 hours?

He's going to have to find a cup. He was going to have to find a cup. Yeah, exactly.

He was going to prove the toughness and no one was going to know. Yeah, that's right. And then he's going to have prostate issues.

He's going to come to his wife and he He was going to be like, My prostate's on fire.

Oh, no. You just saved him from the end.

Also, you just wanted to talk about your urinal.

I mean, I don't mind that people know I have a urinal in my garage. It's exciting. Does that excite you, Andy?

A little bit more than it should. Yeah, exactly.

I'm going to be honest, this is more bragging because it's name dropery, but he's passed, so I can do it now. But I was once at-Is that the way it works? Yeah, I think so. You and I are going to get to talk about our dads as wildly as we want to. Okay. That's the one upside of having lost dads. You can really I have to tell the truth. But yeah, I was one time at Osi Osborne's house, and I went to use the bathroom, and there was this gorgeous black journal in there with gold pictures, and I was like, Of course.

That's what I wanted it to look like in his house, right?

Yes. He's really delivered.

That's where the obsession came from then. Oh, man. That was the secret. Really rest in peace. But at the old house, when Kristin moved in, I had a urinal in the hallway there based on the Aussie thing. And she was like, This is so fucking tacky, and got rid of it. So I didn't have it, but now I have a garage, and I go, That's where the urinal is going to live. Do you have anything stupid like that at your house where you bartered with your wife? Good question.

I just got my first room. Oh, you did? Ever. She has me trained well. I have a lounge here in a TV. I'm like, I made it.

Yeah, kill I want it. This is it. But you're a stylist, so I feel like you probably have a high standard for esthetics.

It's generous.

I think he's mostly known for wearing T-shirts and shit.

But it's really stylish T-shirts.

Is that a really stylish one?

Look at him. This is it. My wife, she's designer, and she does all that stuff. It's like, if I don't value my opinion more than I value your opinion, why should I get 50% of the say in what goes in this room?

Wow, that's mature.

That's her stance or yours?

That's mine. With design, I don't trust my opinion more than yours. Why should it be valued right now? In this conversation?

Agreed. If we're going to talk about what power plant the car should have, maybe you defer to me.

I'm an idiot. Very narrow silo. We can all defer to that.

It's got to be tennis questions.

Pretty much. I wasn't going to tell me.

Well, I was thrilled to learn a couple things about you today. We have some mutual loves I discovered right out of the gates. You grew up in Austin, 4 to 11?

I grew up there and then went back. I've been there 25 years.

The day after you won the US. Correct. You flew down there and bought a house immediately. Yes. I have that same crazy love affair with Austin. What was it like growing up there?

It was different than it is now. There weren't 60-story pre-sold commercial buildings. It was Willy Nelson playing Antones in this weird place in Texas that makes no sense compared to rest of Texas. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was great. We moved from Nebraska. Most of my formative memories are probably from Austin, and your parents move you around. And then when you have your own decision to make, I went back there.

What part of Austin were you in?

Well, it used to be the outskirts, and then it became, I guess, the main skirts.

Like West Lake area?

Yeah, exactly. The hills out there. Good guess.

You knew that. Speaking of people who have passed, sadly, Robert Redford passed, and I almost sent this to you. Apparently, he loved Barton Springs.

Oh, no way. Barton Springs is cool. That's my temple. It's amazing. The whole town, Lake situation right off of downtown. You can be crunchy and you can be downtown in four minutes.

If I go there for a week, my commitment is like, I go to Barton Springs every day. Got to go every day. But I just recently discovered going at night. I guess I didn't realize it was open at night. So the notion that you can float in the springs and be looking at the lit up city. That feels impossible.

Do you like it so much that if you take someone and they don't love it as much as you, you're disappointed? Then they're out.

No, they're not.

I'm still here.

I'm still standing. But my financial security is tied to you, so you have a lot of leverage.

That's right. There are exceptions.

But did you not... I mean, she got booted. She got thrown out.

You got thrown out? She got 86. Is that possible, Austin? What did you do?

They don't let you bring in any food. By the way, it wasn't just me. It was a bunch of us.

It was a black mark on my reputation there. I know.

You distance yourself from us so fast. I stayed. Oh, my god.

Yeah. No, you can. Her mistakes can't become yours and vice versa.

We brought like cheese, it's and snacks. And this Australian woman who runs the place Very well.

For that month. I'll just add, the turnover there is very high.

She lit into us and she was like, You got to go. And we were like, Well, we'll just put it in the car.

Oh, so it wasn't like a water bottle through TSA where you just got to go back and start again? No.

She was like, You It's like, you can't come back. Take your food and get the fuck out. We hate you.

Did she actually say that? No.

Revision is history.

This is funny because we got in a fight about this.

Because in Aussie saying that, it's funny.

It's funny, and then it gets funnier when they cuss.

Well, also, we were just like, there's a very easy solution. We'll just put it away. We'll just remove the food. Nope, already saw it.

To be fair, you had just proven that you weren't to be trusted.

I guess. I'm a very trustworthy person. I just love cheese.

Okay, so you grew up there, and then you're the youngest of three boys. Do you think you would have ever been a professional athlete without competing with two people that are way older than you? And not just in tennis, just the whole ride.

I always thought about it because my middle brother played tennis and was good at tennis. So I like the way that you frame that because I normally thought about it. I had this exposure to tennis at a really high level. I think I gave a lot of credit to that as opposed to just the basic structure of you're fighting uphill the whole way. So then when you get to neutral, it feels like you're downhill. I think I was a little bit of a whoopsie. My oldest brother was going to college when I was going to preschool. No. It's like we didn't even live in the same place. My next brother was six years older, which even worse in sports is like an eternity. We had the same thing, and the rankings told a story that I wasn't horrible, but you weren't him. Luckily for us, it flipped one summer very quickly. He was a four-time All-American at Georgia and played well and was one of the top juniors in the world. Then one summer, he's drilling me. When he comes home from school, the next summer, it flips like that.

Wait, at University of Georgia? Yeah. That's where I went to school. Oh, really?

Yes.

You could have even been now.

No, he was born in '76. Yeah, it's not going to work.

We just barely missed each other by 12 years.

Just barely missed each other by a decade. He's been retired for 25 years.

That's exciting.

Go, dogs. Do you remember beating your brother at for the first time?

Yeah, and I'm still not totally convinced that he didn't take a dive. It's where he was leaving college. He was pretty sure he didn't want to try tours. So the benefit to me was way more than the benefit to him. I still haven't asked him about it because I don't know that I would believe anything he said.

I don't think he did. I don't think you can.

I don't think he did either.

He's not Jesus. He might be a great dude, but I don't think he's from another planet.

I was excited because then I knew when my mom was like, Well, look at your brother. I'm like, That bum? The guy who sucks now?

The husband who I just mop the court with?

But did it cause any friction between you two? Not at all.

I think the age gap is so big.

So big that you basically just ignore each other. There was no sibling rivalry because it was just he was here and it was here, and then he was gone and I was home. I probably annoyed him at a certain point when you're 8 and 14 or something. But once you get older, there's no day-to-day orbit and friction, at least in my experience.

I'll just say I bring up your brother's because you guys moved to Florida for your middle brother to pursue his tennis career. Yes. Were you bummed to move to Florida?

I honestly don't remember. That's a little misleading. He was good. I was one of the top in the country in my age division, so it wasn't as if we moved there and I started playing tennis. It was pretty established.

But you were only 11?

I was 10. I think it was new and exciting. I mean, a I can imagine this. You all have probably experienced it at some point, you've had this crazy growth trajectory. But we landed, I'm 10. At that point in Austin, I was nine beating 16-year-olds. I was number one in the city in 16 and Under. I always tell people with athletic children, When you think If they're really good, just travel a little further. Yeah. Right. We get to Florida, and all of a sudden, I see two girls hitting on these courts down at the end. Their names were Venus and Serena. Stop it. Oh, wow. How old were they? Serena is about my age, and Venus is two years older. Oh, wow. Three years of our existence after we moved to Florida was like, You think you're good? Right. Then you see, I get goosebumps talking about, Jennifer Capriotti was there who won majors and made the final semis in the USA when she was 13.

Oh, my Well, you've now moved to the epicenter of tennis.

Where you see pro players and it's going, Oh, I thought it was okay, and now I suck again. Parts of that are exciting, parts of that are scary.

I bet that's the first round of caving that's on the table. That could be overwhelming and you could give up.

Getting beat and just going to work the next morning is a superpower. It's an undervalued skill. Absolutely. You could be sad and work. I've always been okay with that balance and I've failed many, many times. But that part was cool where you arrive and it's like, this is where the next 20 years of tennis is getting made. I even realized that at a young age. So that part was exciting, but you miss people and things.

So your dad grew up working on a dairy farm. He was in the military. He ran a jiffy lube. He's a tough dude, yeah. Where does he rank in these parents of child athletes? You hear these these stories?

He was very tough. But also, most of the parents of the child athletes want to be noticed and want credit. He wanted no credit. Oh. They never sat in my player box, were never It was not visible on TV until the cameras found them, like crouching in some random part of the stadium. So differentiated in that it was completely altruistic.

It wasn't his own glory he was seeking.

No, I fully believe that. But it was like, this is a choice. This is an opportunity. You don't have to do it. If you do it, we're going to do it. This isn't like a half-ass type thing. And it was military that way. And anything that I was doing was not hard compared to him running a farm when he was 12 or 13 years old. So the base comp for any conversation we started wasn't good for me. So he was hard.

Where Where was it productive and useful? What aspects of it do you have a lot of gratitude for and which ones were probably not helpful?

It's probably the same. It's just a matter of if you get through. Tennis is weird. You should not have kids playing nine hours a day when you're eight or nine years old. Tennis is one of the sports that has to happen. You don't have stories in tennis where it's a random reference. But I remember a guy got drafted number one in the NBA, Michael Olawakandi. He started playing basketball freshman year of college.

Rodman started at 21 years old.

That story doesn't exist.

In tennis. It doesn't exist. You guys are more like symphony musicians.

It's this weird thing, and you have to get used to this lifestyle training thing before you are old enough to realize it's weird. I was pretty aware. I went to normal schools. It was this weird divide between no one at my school knew that I could do this thing. You're dealing with every little issue that every kid has, whether it's not fitting in or this or the other. I'm a small.

A girl doesn't like you. Yeah.

Someone's little brother trying to kick the shit out of you.

Because he just found out he's strong. Yeah.

Then all of a sudden, 2 o'clock hits and you go to practice and all of a sudden, you're elite at something. Yeah. And you're valued. And so you have this shift midday, every day, where it's like you put on your cape and then all of a sudden, you're good at something.

Great. Well, I would imagine that would make most people pretty dualistic.

Or arrogant. Oh, arrogant. Don't you think?

Well, I just think you really get used to having multiple identities in different spaces, and there's a quarter between these. And when you go to school, you can't bring your cockiness from the court.

You shouldn't. Yeah. That's what I'm saying.

People probably It won't go well.

Minimally, I would imagine you get pretty well-versed in snapping back and forth to two versions of yourself.

Maybe.

That feels too self-indulgent for you.

No, I definitely didn't realize it in the moment. You're shy when you're at school unless you're playing a sport or something, and then you get a little cocky to your point. But I've realized the value of different places, different things at different moments, the value of traveling when you're 13 to Cali, Colombia by your sofa going to Hong Kong. I don't know that I I realized how weird that was. But also as I get older, the value of that, if it doesn't go completely sideways. I think that's a razor's edge. There's a million people in tennis.

They did all that, and it really didn't yield anything.

Besides maybe damage of having done that stuff. Exactly. Or there's a lot of issues. I think if you get to the other side of it, it's great where you're actually pragmatic enough and you feel like your cup is full enough to look backwards and say, That was really good for me. I don't know that that's a one-size-fits-all thing.

Do you follow F1 at all?

Not really.

Okay. Well, Max Verstape in the four-time Rating champ. Yeah, I know who he is.

Yeah, for sure.

His dad, famously, on the way home from the track, pulled over a gas station and was like, Get out. You're walking home because you didn't go for that pass in the turn and you had it. I mean, just brutal. Now, the fact that he's a four-time world champion, you're like, Okay, well.

Tiger, Serena, and Vina. I mean, you hear all the stories.

But we never talk about the ones where it's like, well, they never even got there. Annie left your fucking kid at the gas station. She was like... Oh, yeah.

That for kids might be dead now.

I remember, and she never lets me forget it. I remember playing Serena in a practice match, and They were famous for, we're not going to play junior tennis tournaments. We're all like, How do you learn how to compete? You can see how good they are. Also, this will never work. Idiots, right? We would play as the best kid. Serena, at that point, was like, She is now. She's an absolute beautiful physical specimen. She is an absolute... What an amazing person. Yeah, totally. We're playing, and her dad or the coaches at the academy, they're all in on this program with these two. It's like, Okay, I guess so. We'll see if it works. It worked. But having kids in the academy, surround the court and cheer against them. Oh, really? Yeah.

Yeah.

What? Yeah. She didn't say this. You see her go over and you're looking and she's like, Fuck you.

It's fueling something. If it works, I don't know that there's neutral.

Are you born with the disposition or is it made? That's my question.

Again, I don't think it's absolute.

I think like everything, it's not binary, and it's some combination.

If you time it when you're ready, you could be ready at 12 and not ready at nine.

Well, you tried to quit at 16?

This is going to sound arrogant. This isn't real for most people, and I understand it's That's insane. My version of quitting was after I lost a junior Wimbledon, throw all my rackets away. I knew at that point I could go to any college of my choice on a full ride. So I wasn't quitting that. It was more like, I'm quitting progress. I'm quitting working towards this pro thing. It's not there. I'm going to go to Georgia and be a stud. I'm going to dominate caggers and courts. That's what we're going to do. I know. My brother had the most fun of any person that's ever gone to Georgia. The story gets told in my version of quitting is like, I left my rackets in England. Nothing's a straight line. There were levels to stuff. I knew that I could go anywhere to college. I knew I could play. And that wasn't a cocky or arrogant thing to say. That was true. There were offers. But also it's like you have this comfortable thing that is going to be awesome. You know life is going to be great until you're like 22 or 23, and it's going to be fantastic and you can train or not train.

But there's that choice to go past what you can be content with. That's a hard thing.

You're going to have to have another whole round of misery. You've been suffering to get to this level, but to get to At that level, there'll be more suffering. You're signing up for more suffering.

Isn't that everything, though? That's not tennis-specific, right? No, right. That's just like, you don't feel content. You want to keep going and building, and there's a next interesting conversation. There's something you haven't touched on. There's always something, right?

For me, yes.

Dax is hitting. For her, yes. I am getting to the age. Really? I am. I'm eight years older than you, I think. I'm just starting to feel like, Yeah, we did a lot this lifetime, and we did enough.

If you didn't do enough for six months, would you still feel that way?

That's the fear, but I will say I had a lot of practice as a struggling actor. For eight years, I never got any work. I got pretty good at learning how to exist with no purpose. No, you didn't.

You were a drug addict.

I was a drug addict and a drunk. But I like going to the movies. I like exercise. I like bike riding. I like working on shit. I'm very I consent not doing that. I could be wrong, but I have a different mindset for sure than I had at 42. I can just feel it, and I'm welcoming it. I like it.

Did you used to have guilt about it?

Oh, tremendous. I think at the core of it all is, am I worthy of love just by existing, or do I need to be spectacular? I understand. So my story my whole life is, I have to be spectacular to be loved by everyone. And I'm approaching a zone where I'm like, no, I think I can just exist in people will love me. And so that's an interesting thing to unplug from.

But what about day to day purpose?

Well, I have two kids. It's my purpose. I get up and drive them to school, and I'm very involved.

Okay, so then you drive them to school. And then- The hours. Where's the purpose meter between eight and Four. Yeah, exactly.

I'm pretty involved with helping dudes that are getting so... I have a lot of things.

Yeah. Don't you think, though, and maybe I'm wrong, I don't have kids, but I feel like if you are your parents' sole purpose, That's tough.

If they feel the weight of that.

Our kids probably feel like they're our sole purpose not knowing what we do when they go to... You have an entire work life. Right. But I do think it's important. We're happy, and I'm sure you are, too, that your parents actually see you working. That might matter.

The mom still wants to work for a while, so they'll see plenty of work. Here's what it is, Andy. You've been given this enormous gift. I've been given this enormous gift. I could explore the world, and I could figure out what purpose is other than being productive. I have that opportunity, and I feel like it would be very dishonoring to that insane amount of luck I've had to not challenge myself to find out what else is there in life other than being productive and accomplishing things and being spectacular. To me, it's a challenge It is purpose in its own right. It is purpose in its own right. Can I unplug from the production fucking hamster wheel in the growing and growing and growing and explore and listen and be a part of the planet?

Have you not done that at all?

Yes, I have windows of that. By choice. By choice. Do you mean do I take breaks and stuff?

People's journeys aren't the same. I was away from tennis for 9, 10 years before I wasn't. I had that beat to where now I feel the opposite of you. I feel refreshed. You feel like you're gaining on something. You feel like you're going.

But Andy, also, we started this podcast when I was exactly your age. I directed a movie. It didn't work out. I was completely depressed. I sat around for six months, and then I was like, Okay, I need a whole new racket, and I want to throw myself at it, and I want to build something again. And it happened. I don't know. We'll check in at 50.

I'm not saying you're wrong at all. I'm more just fascinated about the process of it. Yeah, it's interesting.

Yeah, back to you.

It is about you because this is on your horizon as well. You have these decisions.

Well, I'm just fascinated. I mean, the starts and stops and people normally think they need agreement. I'm more fascinated about what I don't know yet.

Yeah. Okay, so you have this meteorite rise in tennis. You're a lot bigger. Forgive me, neither of us know much about tennis. I just own that right now. I'm also going to ask you to go through some things that you would imagine everyone knows. Sure. But I don't know that our audience knows. Totally. You're a lot bigger than the tennis players I've met. You're abnormally big.

Not in tennis anymore. I present more as a fullback than a skinnier person. But you're 6'2. I always say I'm a tennis player that was born in Nebraska. They're big now, though. Rafa is an animal. They're all huge now. That's the thing that's changed.

The conditioning has changed.

We used to have a skill, and now you can't have that skill without being insanely athletic. So now you're seeing Alcaraz, and his body's like-UFC fighter.

Yeah.

He explodes and center is 6'5, and he was like a skier. The athleticism of tennis has completely changed in the last 25 years.

All sports, F1 drivers are now peak fucking athletes. They weren't. They drove a car. The only place I'm I see because I watch all these sports stock series because I do love them even if I don't like the sport. I don't like golf. You get away with just having a normal dadbot.

No. I mean, you look at a McElroy. These guys are like human rubber bands. Used to be, what was the quote of Happy You're Good More, plaid pants and a huge ass. It's younger and younger, and these guys are swinging violently. It's changed a little bit. Tiger changed a lot of it. Okay, yeah. Because he looked and presented like an athlete. Therefore, every kid that watched him now looks and presents like an athlete. That's the thing with sports, man. Anybody who comes in says their generation walked uphill both ways. It's completely self-indulgent and full of shit. Yeah.

Okay, but with your height, that has to be a part of your serve, right? Because the crazy part about your game was you had this insane serve. I like this detail of it. You had numerous different coaches over the years, and I do want to talk about that. I want to know how one... You got to break up with someone and hire someone. That's got to be a very stressful part of the experience. But as you hired coaches, your whole game was on the table except for the serve. The serve was to not be talked about. Is Is that right?

It was to not be talked about.

Were you superstitious about the serve?

No, I just knew it backwards. I knew the cadence when it started. I knew this little three-count that I had. I knew the feelings of it. I knew more than they did. I don't say that lightly because we'll get to the coaches. I was obviously always in pursuit of something new, something different, something additive. And also, don't talk about my serve.

Is the origin of it true that you got really frustrated at 16 and you served in a weird way out of anger and it worked? Is That's true?

That's true. I was playing my friend Marty Fish, who ended up being a really good player. He was six in the world. Basically, all the kids who didn't get picked by the federation, so the people not funded by US tennis anymore, the throw aways. We played at Crystal Palms Apartment Complex in Florida, and there were six of us. Out of that group, a couple of us made top five, top six in the world. But I was playing against Marty, who was really, really good, and at that point, better. I just got pissed off, and I have this little half motion of boarded tears, but it's not conventional. Hit one irresponsibly out of anger, and it went in.

Which, by the way, is the thing they tell you to never do in anything. Never do, right? Don't try to kill it. Don't try to crush it. And you did. You're like, I'm going to fucking murder this wall because I hate it.

And that was it. I thought I'd been doing well with Marty that day. I wouldn't be here having this conversation.

That's so crazy. When you recognize it clicked, do you then think, Okay, how do I commit this whole thing to muscle memory?

I got to-Replicate.

Just over and over again, you do it?

Just started doing it.

And you didn't know I have to overthink it.

It was immediately... Well, a lot of the muscle's building. Your shoulder still goes over. It's just your feet was different, but there was no time. There were some other things that needed to be adjusted. But yeah, you literally figured it out. Then the year before, you're 40 or 50 in the world in juniors, which sounds good, but that means you're going to college. Then four months later, it was-You're number one in Florida. One signed a rebut deal over pro.

When You went to bed that night after discovering the serve. Did you think it's replicatable? That wasn't a one-off?

Yeah, it was not the way a tennis player should look. It was violent. And so the conversation became, It'll work, but for how long?

He's going to destroy his shoulder.

It's like a 12-year-old throwing a curve ball. I knew I had it.

But you were wondering for how long.

I was like, let's just rip it, though. Yeah, good for you.

But you were never going. Good.

You had to. Yeah, I just feel like if I was you and I had been pursuing this thing nine hours a day for the last nine years, I feel like I would have gone to bed that night and been like, Oh, wow, we're about to enter a whole new zone. It was weird, too, because going in the sophomore year of high school, I was 5 to 110 pounds. Oh, Jesus. I grew seven inches that year. Then six months after that, I'd discovered this serve. All of a sudden, I go from this tiny little guy who just annoyed people forever. That was my style to having this thing. You go from itchy road to Bonds or Aaron Judge quickly, right?

Yeah. How exciting. Were you cool in school? What was the high school experience like?

The better I got at tennis, I became cooler. Everyone had a local paper. People knew. Oh, so people started learning. Yeah, so then I started. But no, not really.

How was that? Not even local celebrity.

You were becoming a- It was weird because what we talked about earlier with the separation with church and state with school versus this other thing, it changed. You sign a contract, people know what you sign for. Yes. I remember the first time I played It was a tournament in Miami, 1,000, which is just less than a grand slam. Win my first match. So I'm 17, beat a guy top 40, which was unheard of. Then I'm second round, Andre Agassi, who is number one in the world at the time. My idol. 17,000 people, obviously lost, but then went to school the next day. After playing Agassi. In high school. So that weird trade-off was like- This is so weird.

Also, how much money were you winning back then?

That deal I signed, it was incentive base, but the base was 400,000 a year. Okay. Immediately. Oh my God, in high school? Yeah. And then it was all bonus-based, right? Right. So your prize money equals an incentivized contract along the way as well.

With your endorsement deals. Correct. Okay, so how does a 17-year-old comprehend We're going to make a million bucks this year? Is that part super exciting or were your parents somehow trying to shelter you from that reality?

Probably both. I knew enough.

Were you allowed to go buy a stupid car in high school or anything?

No, I bought a fucking sound system. Like, what a douchebag. That's a high school thing to buy.

You can't regret these things. That's exactly what you're supposed to do.

I made 3,200 bucks for losing in my first pro event. Humongous self.

It was loud.

It was loud going in the parking lot the week later. Oh, my God. Just such a dick.

You have to love that about your- I'm impressed you could keep your eye on the tennis prize.

I bet the girls were just- Yeah, I bet the girls were all a flutter.

All a flutter. They were a flutter. Of course they were.

Not only you're a- A stud. You're a stud, and you're You have famous, and you have a talent.

You got the best sound system in the high school parking lot.

That's right. I think you're underselling the sound system. You're right.

I know that turns so bad. Let's add that back in. What was the sound system in? What vehicle?

It was an old Chevy Blazer.

Great. You could put a lot of shit in the back. Cloth seeds after sweat. A 12-inch kicker box.

The speakers couldn't take it, obviously. So it was just broken. It smelled like a hockey locker. It was terrible. It was not the one. Wow.

So, yeah, rich in high school. That's such a bizarre... Oh, yeah, rich.

I didn't even say that. It's not like I had it. I knew it was there at some point, but it wasn't as if I went to a bank account and could go spend $100,000. That's all I do. I didn't have access to it. It's not the same. That's what I'm asking. It's liquidity versus networth. You can't buy a coffee with networth.

So the parents were keeping you in check.

You asked about my dad. He was very strict on the financial part of it.

Could be a short ride. You got to save.

Not even a short ride. Just why wouldn't you be responsible? He was actually probably doing that because he thought it would be a long ride. I think it was probably the opposite. So he was very overbearing with that stuff. He wore my first agent out to a point where I would have other coaches. And it was like, Well, your dad called me. I go, Don't answer.

Well, your agent who you loved to death.

What was his name? Ken Meyerson.

He ran interception for you a bit. He took a little bit of the stress of the father-son relationship out of the equation.

Completely.

That's telling because he had too much to say too often.

My dad? Yeah. Just has a control issue. Yeah, control. I don't I don't want this to become this weird representation. My parents got me. They lived in a tree. He did every single thing in his ability. All the stories were telling was because he didn't leave an hour of work on the table. He never asked me to do one thing that he hadn't been willing to do in his life, which I think gives him an element of credibility, but definitely wanted his voice in the room. Okay. Not in front of the TV, didn't want credit, didn't want to be recognized, didn't want anyone outside of this circle of four or five people. These four or five people were going to know that he existed. All day long. And no one else would.

And that you were his. Is that a piece of it?

I think just overly protective. Maybe a fear-based type control thing. World view. Yeah. Then I think it's weird. You get to certain levels and we talk about high school, and then you play the US Open, and then you're in night matches, and then you win it, and then you do all these things. I think it was hard for him once I was a complete adult. Yeah. He would tell me to clean my room. I'm like, Dad, you came to stay at my house.

Yeah, he came to see you in Austin, and he was all rung up about it being a mess.

We were just pissing on fire hydrants. He's like, Your room's I'm like, I'm number one in the world. I don't care. I don't miss practice. Maybe misguided at times, but I don't think ever for the wrong intention.

I can feel the hesitation you would never want to say anything disparaging, but it's like, I love my wife. She's flawed as fuck. We have a great relationship. It has many challenges. It's totally fine if things are all so complicated. It doesn't make her a bad person that she leaves the fucking cupboards open nonstop. She's still a great person. That she can't put a fucking cap on a jar. Oh, my gosh. I grab my pills, they all fucking blow up. I'm like, none of these caps are on. Toothpaste. It's so simple.

It's right there. I don't want crusty-ass toothpaste. Can I borrow some of it? No, you can't because then that's a goneer. Yes. How about this?

You can borrow anything, but you have to put it back.

Every time you use my toothpaste, I I ended up in the car driving somewhere.

Then I made fun of because I order 15 fucking toothpaces from Amazon. She's like, We don't need them, man. We do.

See, she's good now because she'll hear me bitch about it. Then she's going to be furious because she actually buys the 20. She's the backup. There's the backup I'm telling stories.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, If You Dare. One thing I just want to end on with your serve, which I find so incredible. You had the record for the fastest serve in history at 155 miles an hour. It has been beaten, but it's still only at 156. That's so massive. The serve is described in many of the things I was reading as unreturnable.

Well, to most, except for the Avengers that came on my way through career. But I wasn't a natural tennis player. I was like a work guy, but I could throw it. That was it. I could make your life uncomfortable for a little bit.

Okay, so you win the 2003 US Open.

I'm dying to go to the US Open. No one will invite me.

Let's do it whenever. Can you take us?

You just have to be a guest on this podcast.

Oh, great. Invite me and then let's- You have to You have to earn your way.

I have to earn my way. You don't even have to do that. I want to go. Very easy.

I know why you want to go.

I want to try that Honey Deuce. The Honey Deuce?

Yeah. That's a cocktail? They basically invented a signature cocktail that everyone pretends has been around for 100 years. Like a mint julip. They fucking put it in eight years ago. It's not. I know. Have you had a Honey Deuce in the US Open? No, because they didn't fucking have one when I was playing. It's a made up thing. What's in it? It's genius, though.

I don't know.

I've never had one. Oh, you got to buy it to find out. No, a little chamboard Lemonade, Gray Goose, and Sprite.

Yeah, I want that.

I'll make you one and serve it on the fact check.

No, I wanted it at the US open.

She wants to overpay for it.

That's right. You can't imagine how well you know her. You literally know everything you need an overal. It doesn't taste as good if you don't pay $28 for it.

It doesn't. No. If it doesn't have those little fruit fucking thing on there. Here's a little fruit fucking thing on there. Yeah, that's really cool. My favorite thing about that is they have the Honey Deuce cups that have all the winners on them. It's like, oh, my God. I know I paid $30, but I got a free It's worth 75 cents. So I won.

Yeah, I want that. I want that. I'm going to do that. I'm going to do that.

I saved thousands by getting this.

But also the US Open has gotten so cool. Everyone goes.

It's definitely a social event.

It's the Met Ball. It's the Met Ball of sports.

Yeah. I do really, really want to go. I need to learn a little bit more about that.

I'm trying to decide if I should ruin your day. What? I got invited this year to go sit in the GM box. It's cool. But it was the Emmies. No. It was something else important. Yeah.

We had been on time too much. You know what? It's worth seeing.

I got to do more social media stuff.

Really? You got to amp it all up.

I have a lot to work on.

It's theater now for sure.

You win that 2003. You're '23?

No, I turned 21 during the tournament.

What are the emotions that follow it? There's obviously probably relief.

I feel a lot more relief towards the end of my career when I won matches. I was so dumb. I was like, Oh, I'm going to be the guy. Then this fucking guy Federer comes in. I used to get I arrived with the US Open from my mom for a good report card. I went when I was nine, and she would just weirdly let me walk around all day by myself. I would sneak in the players' louanges, bored of tears, but I saw Jimmy Conners make a run when he was 40 to the semis, and he had the crowd in his hand. It was like a live rock show. He would go like this, and everyone would get up. I'm going, Tennis can do this. Standup.

Crazy.

I was like, he's controlling the mood of grown people.

Yes. It is interesting to observe human power when you're little.

I remember flying over it. At that point, Mayor Dinkons then changed the flight pattern so that you didn't get the noise over the stadium. But I remember flying right over the middle of the stadium when I was nine. It was 1 AM or something, irresponsible, and it was packed. It was Connor's versus Patrick McEnner. I remember being like, I cannot believe how late it is in what we just flew over. They're still playing. Oh, my God. I was blown away. Then 12 years later, you have that moment where it's like, that's it. No matter what happens, and not much happened. But no matter what What happens from there, that's that.

You did that. Yeah, you did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People can't take away what you did. I think you have to come to that. I don't think that's human nature. I did it, it can't be taken from me because I have had many successes. Then after failures, I really can't access the notion that I had done the other thing.

Does that make sense? Is that between sports and entertainment?

Maybe. A trophy is so definitive, I guess. It's number one, you want it.

It's also each match is individual, where I feel like entertainment is more The difference is, I'm guessing, I don't want to tell you about your business, but I'll tell you about ours.

You win the US Open, you know what that is. You can finish a project and other people are going to define what that is, and you're not going to know for a year.

Or even the quantifiable aspect, it might make 180, and you're like, wow, that's the big comedy. And then another movie comes around and makes $2. 25 in a month, and that's like, oh, we forgot that that other movie made $1. 80. Yeah.

Someone wins the US Open last week or wins at 20. It's the same thing. I had a hard time less to do with that US Open win because That was just fun, good time. You're hosting SNL.

And you thought it was the beginning of something.

You think it's going to happen a lot. I would lose a Wimbledon final after that. And it was like, you failure. And now I can go, okay, there's 128 men and women, so 256, each vying for this thing. You have a two week race. You come in second with Earth. Some Jackass can define that as a failure. I bought into it for a very, very long time. Yes. Right. And so now it's like, okay, the way people perceive me would be different had I won two more points at Wimbledon, one of seven times. But It doesn't really change the day to day, like what a Tuesday would look like at all, I don't think.

I guess that's what you're saying is that's healthy what you're saying, and some people never get there.

It took a lot of work for me. It's an ongoing thing to work through the experience of having mass relevance and then have fading relevance, and then maybe get another spike of mass relevance. I was struggling with it so much that I asked Sean White to go out to breakfast with me, and I'm like, How did you navigate these periods? Where it's just like, When you win the Olympics, the Olympics Olympics is a whole nother thing because it's like you're four years top of the mountain.

Then a year later, it's like, Okay, I have three years. I'm curious about that conversation. That's brutal. Because I've heard Phelps talk about that. He goes, I'd win the Olympics, I would get all these medals, and then I would be depressed. You're on every talk show. It's the opposite of what you would think, right?

And the rest of the world plays along because when someone's number one for too long, they want to see that up-end.

Well, there's also a reason why, you can't say everyone, but the narrative you hear most with musicians, with actors, entertainers, sports is when you're going after something, they always say, That was the time. That was the best time of our career, looking back. Building, pursuing, having those things where there's no... I think expectation is the hardest thing in sports. People talk about doing it. I think keeping it to your point is like another level and something that I couldn't do. It's another piece where you have to almost be like a complete psychopath. You know what's going to reset? Daily. It's not even just a big reset. It's like, I have to wake up. Now, Novak has been doing this for 20 years, where Jogovitch is like, I've been had a piece of chocolate in 20 years. I have lemon water when I wake up. That's It's hard to do for a day. Exactly. We're going to cleanse for five days and we want to throw a parade.

You need to be a Buddhist to get through it, but I don't think you can be a Buddhist in order to get it. That's like this weird catch-22.

It is. You have to keep it right-sized, but in order to be the best, it can't be right size. Yes.

Yeah. I would say you can have it all just not at the same time, right?

Yeah, that's true. Okay, so the email I got from your publicist, and then in this great GQ article I read with you, it was really, really good. Great article. Both people are like, Does it really want to talk about retiring. It was present in the article and it was present in this. That's just a curiosity of mine. What part of it don't you like talking about? Or is there any part you don't like talking about?

Well, imagine you have to announce your retirement from the five things that you do individually. It makes no sense. I retire from tennis. That doesn't mean I retire from life. There's a million other things. Yes. It's like, you retired at 30. It's like, no, I started other shit. It's a weird thing where I get asked about a lot and it's like, oh, are you okay?

Here is my primary guess. Was, I would hate it because I hate being pitied. There's nothing I would hate more than knowing someone pities me or feels bad for me.

No, I don't think that was it. I think it was I was 30 when I retired. Yeah. From tennis. And so it's hard to define people almost digesting as life-ending at 30. It doesn't make any sense to me. I'm very sad. This is my thing. This is the thing I'm in love with. This is my first girlfriend. This is my first love. This is the first thing ever. I have a weird story. I woke up one morning and I decided that that was that. It was your birthday? It was my birthday. I retired that afternoon. I made a run at the US Open. I was in the middle of the US Open. I'd played the night match the night before, and then I just did it. I played like another week, and that was that, and I never came back. Right.

I admire it deeply. The earlier conversation we just had, which I was saying, no, the challenge of leaving safety and leaving what you know is actually the calling. I actually admire that you were 30 and you were confident enough to go like, I'm not enjoying this the way I'd like to enjoy it. I'd be happy you're not doing this, ultimately.

It might have been a little more selfish than that. I'm pretty good at reality. I think the athletes were trained to live in denial. We have numbers, a very clear data set of your one, your two, your four, your six, your eight. I was able to do that math, and then I was 12 or 15 or whatever it was. So it was going the wrong way. And then, frankly, it was these monsters that came, these Novacks and Rafa's and Rogers, and my shoulder was not great. If I didn't have the carrot that I was chasing that was a Grand Slam title, yes, I had a hard time reconciling because that was the goal the entire time. Yes. So that's interesting. When I didn't believe in that goal, I wish that I could have had in that moment more enjoyment.

Of just being on the tour.

Yeah. And it didn't work that way. It was past fail. It was misery. I was trying to out train everyone. You make them for what I lacked an ability. I often had these conversations with broke, my wife. I was like, I was jealous of some of the guys that were 20 or 25 in the world that you would see a half hour after a loss, and they were happy.

Going out with their buddies, enjoying the town you're in.

What was my day? I didn't know if it was great that it didn't have that or great that I didn't know. I struggled with that the last couple of years.

Yeah, that makes sense. We were talking earlier about the difference between entertainment. Entertainment is subjective.

Yes, the numbers- The best shows aren't the biggest shows.

Correct. The best shows that are really speaking to major themes, those are not seen by everyone. It's all very subjective. What we do, even though we're all in the podcast space, is very different from what Rogan is doing, from what Alex is doing. We can take pride in what we're doing. Sport is winning and losing.

It's like the only metric.

I mean, it doesn't have to be. It could be this. It could be 10th in the world or 11th. But if you're a winner, as you are-Go ahead. And as am I, it's winning or nothing. I was a two-time state champ.

That's not a big deal, but it's a big deal. Everyone's heard it. They're so sick We can't get into it anymore. You're the only one that could probably get through it.

I know. I know. I know. That's why you called Jack to go on.

But I do know that second is not an option when you're in it. If it's just like, Yeah, we're fifth, we're sixth for this long, I could see being like, I'm done now.

There's also even a hiccup within there, which is there's all this great science behind the curse of silver. Bronze people actually enjoy the Olympics.

They go out on a winning note.

They got on the podium. Silver is like a death.

It's a rough one.

It doesn't make any sense.

I watched But my friend Marty from the serving story earlier. We were on the same Olympic team. I was seated two. I lost early. He made it to the finals. Played another guy. Marty, I don't know what he was ranked at the time. He was probably like 30. It wasn't as if he was favored to get there. He plays another guy around that ranking and loses. I look back at the Olympics, I'm like, Yeah, it was pretty fun. We were in the Olympic Village, and he's like, I fucking hate. I can't. It's hard.

I don't want to think about it.

So your point, that second place silver thing, I think it's real.

The brain is so fucking feeble.

It is. But you can be pragmatic. You can talk through it and understand basic math, and you're like, That's better. It doesn't matter.

Yeah, but it hurts more.

It's so bizarre. Not when you get into those mental gymnastics.

Okay, so you are one of only two tennis players to ever host SNL. That's pretty incredible. Yeah. What was that experience like?

It was great. I think Lorne Michiels just wanted me to hit with his son. I think that was pretty much it.

That would be enough for me.

I think that was the entire thing. It was a weird moment in time where tennis crosses over. I don't know why that happened. I like on uncomfortable things. I don't get freaked out by that thing. I'm like, Oh, if you suck, it's funny. No one expects anything from you. Their job is to not make you look terrible. You have the most talented people on Earth around you to do that.

Were you able to be present and have fun?

Our world tour finals where I There's one going into it. There were three guys in that tournament of the top eight. Getting number one is great. Being year-end number one is more prestigious. Federer was in second. Ferrero, who now is the coach of Alcaraz, was one of the guys also.

Was that the guy you had beaten the US Open? Yes, exactly.

I was still training for that the next week. I was in New York. I would train in the mornings till 2: 00, and then I would go do all the rehearsals and everything until 1: 00 or 2: 00 in the morning and then landed and then had to play that. I enjoyed it. I wish it would have been two weeks later when my season was done. Because all I wanted to do was sit in that room and listen to them read the shitty bits, the good bits. I'm obsessed with comedians.

You want to go to the after-party in the state of the end. I didn't.

I was gone. That sucks. I had to play on Tuesday. That was Saturday, obviously, right there in the name. Then I had to leave. I got into Houston at 3: 00 AM that morning. It It was incredibly fun. Poorly timed. It was amazing. Who was the musical guest? Dave Matthews. Oh, wow. Who's your favorite? At the time, at least. He was there. It was during his solo album.

Did you become bros with him over the years?

We had known each other before that. My wife, if I say I'm a Dave fan, she's like, You're not a Dave fan. I'm a Dave fan. Sure, sure. She will fight someone over. She's like, You'll see. In 20 to 30 years, people will fully understand. I'm like, All right. It was like, I don't know. You look back, and I'm sure you guys had the same thing. It was a crazy moment in time where crazy fun, weird shit was happening all the time. Oh, God. Yeah. Right? And then it comes down. It was weird. I don't have the thing where I missed it when it wasn't happening. I appreciated it fully. I loved it. It was great. I was always happy to have the opportunities. I like doing stuff that wasn't normal. When you talk about comfort zone, being that comfort zone is the worst.

You feel anxious.

Kind of, yeah.

A little bit. It was cool.

It's like the best cast ever.

One other neat thing I think that I read about today that happened in your career was you had gone. I don't know what number it was going to the finals at Wimbledon against Federer. By the way, the fact that you had You're going to face him three times in the final. There's going to be a great movie at some point about that whole thing. It's just so incredible that you faced him three times there.

You get to the top level and it's about matchups. So it just happens that this guy from Switzerland- It shakes out. Well, we talk about serve, paced It just doesn't bother him. He sees the ball earlier and he's able to accept it. It's like, I say the greats, the racket is like an extension of their hand, and the rest of us are grabbing the racket and then using it. It's very different. He's just reacting. I'm assuming it's the same as if you're on the other side of a great actor and you're thinking about stuff and delivering stuff, and they're just doing stuff.

You're saying the rest of us as if you are not one?

No, I'm not saying the rest of us.

He's saying there's a tiny margin between he and Fedra.

I know I could go down the street and mop up. The park? Yeah. I don't I'm not going to lie. I am one of the best players in my club. So I understand that. But as much of a difference is between me and someone who's 300, there's that much of a difference between the greats.

Who are the top five?

We get to separate. Best three female players ever in my mind are, I have to make four, Chrissy Ever, Martina, Stephie, and Serena. I'm going to go back. I'm going to realize it didn't say someone, and it's going to kill me.

No, don't worry, because I made you do this very fast.

Noback Roger Rafa. They ruined sports for everyone else because they were so good. Alcarez is six slams already. That's like as many as icons of our sport. Will we get to 24?

How many did Agustí get? Eight.

So Mâchenor hit seven. Alcarez is six at 21 or 22 years old. He's that great. But also the question is now, can he win 20? It's like the record before those guys was 14. The last Wimbledon final I played against Roger, that was when he broke the previous record was in that match. So, Pete Sambras, who you don't see, is a recluse. He doesn't come to turn. Pete showed up for that match. Because that was his That was his record. That was his record. So he showed up. So we're playing in front of him. I had known Pete because I played on tour with him. It's 15. And I think the next highest active player at that point, so that would have been '09, it probably would have been Rafa at three or four. And it's like, there's no one going to be even close. And then the Two of them didn't even finish. Then another guy comes and does it. It's just absurd. And then you throw Serena what she did. And it's all together. It's just like, we're spoiled by greatness. Then you tend to look at someone who won four or the commentators are disparaging someone who's 20 in the world during a live broadcast, I'm like, What the fuck are you talking about?

Tell a better story.

Yes. But that's the match, actually, that I'm referencing because something really cool happened, which is he wins. He sets this new record, the Brits go crazy. They're chanting, Federer, Federer, Federer. Then there's a beat, and then they start chanting your name, which is unconventional, which is radical. I think everyone was like, Fuck me. He played an incredible match. We respect this guy so much, even in second place. You also in your interview after it made almost the entire focus on Pete Sampras for being there. The way people regarded your sportsmanship was so admirable. Then you got home to New York and you were in a Apple store, three days later, and people were coming up to you and being like, Oh, it was a tough match. And you realized in that moment, it had really permeated. It had transcended a bit.

It changed everything. And I don't know that that happens if I win. I think it gets viewed very differently than if you tragically lose. I was a kid who was hot-headed through stuff.

Yeah, yelled at people. Yeah.

So you get judged. There's a hype mechanism that my natural ability probably doesn't support. After that match, maybe you feel a little more understood. And it's not conscious because you're reacting. All you're trying to do in a speech is try to get through without breaking down. We have the most psychopathic sport ever where it's like a loser has to go up and address the crowd within 10 seconds of finishing.

It'd be graceful.

What the fuck? Imagine going to Super Bowl trophy ceremony and having a losing team come up and give us soliloquy before. Why is that? It's absurd. From my experience with that match, you're shattered. This is like the thing. I don't know if I'm going to get back. That was a place I hadn't been in a couple of years. It wasn't as if the other slam finals that I played and lost, I still thought I would be back there. Yeah. This one, I'm playing it actively. During the match, I don't know that.

And a layer people I don't think would naturally assume I hadn't, which is, it's not just about you. It feels like a very singular sport. It's just this person. But in fact, after that match, you're comforting your wife who's very, very sad. You're comforting your coach who's crying.

Oh, no.

I underestimated that aspect. It's like, you're not just carrying your dream up there. You're carrying a lot of the people around you's dream on your shoulders.

You're also setting the tone for this point forward. But you come back to the States, I'm walking down the street in New York City, and the crew fixing the pothole and us not being appreciative of them saving us time the next day, or no one sees it when it's fixed. They're going, Andy, tough one, man. I'd never experienced that in my entire It was crazy.

I would imagine in that scenario, you can actually feel the love.

Amazing. Never in my life had I felt that. Then I pulled out of a couple of tournaments. I wasn't ready to play. A month later, I show up and we play a tour of it in DC. Tuesday, you normally draw, I don't know, seven, 8,000 people. Then you get to finals and it's full. First night, walk out, and there's 16,000 people going nuts. Practices were different. It changed the entire thing forever, even to this day. Completely. You don't realize that without time, right?

They forced you to maybe accept the thing I was saying earlier, which is like, Am I worthy of love if I'm not a champion? Oh, well, I am. That's nice.

It was something completely unexpected.

Okay. So, yeah, you're gone for 10 years. You didn't play, really, for 10 years after retirement.

No, I would play customer tennis where you get paid to go do this thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Have you played with Bill Gates?

I have not. He's our rich friend, if you wanted to connect.

I haven't yet. But I didn't play, play. If I went out, I stunk. I'm sure there's an element of standup where you could know you weren't great, but maybe they don't know you weren't great. But I didn't play. I never played at home for fun. I played transactionally completely for 10 years. Got it.

What is the wake up where all of a sudden you get back interested in it?

I can't stop playing. No. Oh, you can't stop playing? I play all the time.

Really? Is it It's the same thing you woke up one day and you're like, I'm ready again? No.

Body starts breaking down at a certain point. I basically have this thing. It's like, okay, I probably have however many years to be athletic. But then you go out and hit the feedback is like, it actually makes sense. It's listening again, and you get addicted in a great way. That feeling of, Oh, I'm relearning this thing. I know how it's supposed to feel. Sometimes it feels that way. Competency is euphoric. But there's no consequence. I've never, ever in my life, this thing that I love, I've never lived it without consequence.

It's the best.

It's the best. I'm not nervous. I don't care.

There's no pressure.

I'm playing a bunch of dickheads. It's great.

You're playing for the right reason, which is the sensation of being competent.

You don't go home to anyone who cares about how you did that day. But it's amazing. It's the best.

But then you start tweeting prolifically about tennis. You're starting to get more in the national conversation about tennis as it is today. Ultimately, you start served, your podcast. But what are the little steps before you start served?

I say this sensitively. I don't know that I would have gone back to the front facing side of tennis had it not been for COVID. Where it's like, they have nothing live to show on Tennis channel. And I remember I looked at the emails and it was like, oh, we should be through this in six weeks.

Six weeks to two years.

Yeah. So basically, it's setting precedent for working from home because my whole thing was like, I don't want to sacrifice geography. I did 45 weeks a year. I'm never doing that again.

Had you already moved to North Carolina?

Yes. So I start going on there just basically reading the phone book because events are being played. Top 10 best places to play after a mimosa, whatever it is. So I'm just doing that. And then they start regular programming. You basically get to the point where it's like, okay, Earth pays attention to tennis for eight weeks a year. The four slams. It's a lot of runway for people that are nerdy about it. Yeah. And that's not being addressed. There's no place to consume a story on a Tuesday. And so it's like there's no cost to it. I'm preaching to you about your business, but you can start something up. You don't need permission. You don't need someone to put you on. You can go for an hour. You can go for three hours. There's There's no exhibitor.

You are self-distributing and you do whatever you want to do.

Basically, we just thought there was a lot of football field left, and so we did that.

You've done a lot of fun stuff with the show. A, you've interviewed a lot of really famous and interesting. How do you and Agassi get on? You had him on.

He's my idol He's my hero.

That incredible doc with some of them.

Extremely flawed. And he'll be the first to tell you why or how. Being around him when I was 17, it was a little freeing because fully aware of his flaws, but also capable of this greatness. And when you're 15, 16, 17, you're like, oh, the people that are that good, that successful for that long have to be perfect. It was a great lesson. We're as close as we've ever been. And at some point in the last three or four years, when we've been around each other a bunch, it went from like, okay, I don't feel like a kid around him anymore. I don't feel like I'm the nine-year-old who is wearing all the unfortunate spandex with him.

D Anglo orange and green. Yeah.

And so we text all the time. He's a friend. Yeah. He came on our show. Him sitting down, you get to experience I miss it every week, but digging into people's psyche, their brains, and that was the biggest one because I knew where to go.

Yeah, the reward of it, I think, is to have someone trust you. Amazing. It's a very beautiful feeling.

I know that I'm not as good as Andre, I'm not as good as Rafa, I'm not as good as all these people, but I understand the things they're describing. Absolutely. Very well. Patterns and processes and how we view things differently. We could be remembering the same match and think about it completely differently. Yeah, that's fascinating. Both maybe be experts in in her own way. But I'm like, why do you think that? It's amazing. It's like the biggest high ever. It's basically I found a way to get paid to ask these people the questions that I want to ask them that I would never ask them in private. Yeah. Right, right, right, right.

To nerd out. It's the best. Yeah, I agree.

You two have it figured out.

Did you see the doc about Agassi?

What's the Untold One?

That was with Marty Fish.

Yeah, you were in that, right?

Yes. So that's the guy who I served against, the Silver Metal.

We watched that together.

Is that the one where it talks about him dealing with his wig?

That's Agassi. I don't know the doc, but his book, Open, is my favorite sports book of all time.

I got to read that. I saw a great doc, and he was incredibly honest. And again, there was some really, really important match. He's dealing with the secret he has that he's going bald, and he wears a hairpiece, and he has the bandana.

Famous for this big moulé jean shorts, like rebel, renegade. Back when the culture in the '80s was like, you're dressed in all white. He was like, Fuck this. On its head, long hair, jean shorts to play matches in. Insane.

He's like one of the first brains. He was a brand. And something has gone wrong with the wig and the thing. He has it pinned on me.

He can feel it coming off.

So all this poor guy is thinking about during that match is that. He gets routed. Again, you talk about what was happening in the match. That dude, until he tells that story, he's like, That guy has no idea what happened in that match. He's having this fucking complete collapse of identity.

The other guy, he's giving himself credit. He's like, I have completely taken this guy out of this game. All this guy is thinking about is this guy. His hair. I am a strategic surgeon.

I have so much empathy for him, and everything is just so fucking human. You project onto these people like, Well, he's had to see. He feels 20 feet tall? No, we are all terribly insecure. We all don't think we're worthy of love. What's this? We all have this fucking racket. Pun intended.

You have to read his book. Your thing about not feeling like you're deserving of love. He opens the book with, I hate tennis. Wow. And he's like, Because it caused so much stress in my family. He goes, Now I'm good I respect it. I've now gotten to the point where-He can have a relationship with it.

That's semi- healthy. Yeah, but he's like-Semi-healthy.

He goes, You can't tell me that I shouldn't hate it when you haven't lived through... The personal side wasn't worth the other side. You can't tell me how to gage those things. Wow.

He had some wild times out there in Nevada or wherever the fuck he was living.

His dad was an Iranian boxer who worked the door at Caesars.

Okay, let's go. Okay, so I know that one of your goals and missions, and you just stated it, which is there's a billion viewers throughout the year, and there's 29 million people that play this sport. And yet it's relatively very small on the television front. So people watch these four events. They watch the French Open, the Australian Open, the Wimbledon, and the US Open. So in your opinion, how did they better the experience for the fan? How did they get people interested in these non-grand slam tournaments?

I can go off on this in a million different directions. You can't have an 11 and a half month season and expect people to be committed when it's not in front of them. In order to have a conversation that's realistic and in the right actual spirit of change, the tour runs independently from the ITF, which is in charge of the protocols for the Olympics, which is in charge of drug testing, which is separate from the Grand Slams, which is separate from the team events, which is separate from the everyone fighting for those couple of weeks. So everyone agrees everything needs to be shorter. Everyone agrees these changes, and no one is willing to give. And so Then you bring in money from other parts of the world. Everyone's reacting to like, is that going to set off?

Is that what has happened? Are the Saudi entering this space as well? Yeah, they will.

But it's just everyone lives in their own silo. The biggest properties, which are the slams, aren't in control or don't really care about how tennis is delivered throughout the year. So when ESPN comes in and buys only the slam rights, whoever's negotiating that deal doesn't sell them the Monday night game with two losing teams in December, that's a mistake. So there have been a lot of mistakes stakes were how ESPN doesn't cover the lead in events to the Grand Slams?

So they need a collective bargaining so that they can lift the lower.

There's no independent representation for the players. So what you asked is a loaded question with a million layers, right? You just scraped an onion.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, If You Dare. Here's what I think is really beautiful about the sport that I don't think is played up enough. It's the most meritocracy- Totally. Sport there is. You think so? 100%, because this weekend when F1 races, a guy on the Haas team, he can't beat Max. He doesn't have the car.

Well, that one is specifically hard.

But it goes all the teams. You're on the Yankees. They have a bigger budget. They have more players. If you enter this tournament with the 260 people that enter, everyone has literally a shot to be the champion that weekend. And that's so rare in any sport.

People will tell me the tough losses. It's unfair. It's the most fair. It's the most fair. You never walk off feeling like... Maybe it was a bad call, but the scale of unfairness in tennis is tiny.

Compared to almost everything.

You cannot make an argument for scale in tennis and it being unfair. It's not unfair at scale.

I guess golf shares that as well.

But that's even different. You can have course setups that are lucky. The PGA moves every year. If you catch a run of courses you like that fit your game.

A tennis court is a tennis court, other than the surface.

But the surface, they're not changing as much. You know what it is. You know the cities are going to be played in 10 years from now. It's just going to be that way.

What about who you're paired up with?

But that's luck of the draw. It's like flipping a coin and being ahead two at the end of 10 flips. That'll even out.

There's no manipulation in it. So the NFL- It's random. That's true. The NFL, as it was explained to us by the wonderful guys from acquired, the goal of the NFL is that midseason, every team is 500.

With scheduling, you mean?

In the middle of the season, every team would have a 500 record. Every great team at the beginning of the season plays all their hardest games. It's not just random and it's not luck of the draw. It's a business. It is manipulated so that hopefully at the middle of the season, everyone has 500.

Also, it's just different because you all have a tough schedule season where the people you play are 10 games above 500.

That's a really rad aspect of tennis.

You're good enough or you're not good enough. There's no nepotism in tennis.

There's no team spending. You could I have better coaches, whatever.

But if you have federations, it's not nonexistent. But the narrative of tennis, like in how much it costs and all this, I don't know. You see all these other travel sports with kids and stuff, and I'm going, I don't think that's true anymore. I think we're just being lazy about what was said during the '90s. Kind of. I mean, you look at our icons. We talked about Agassi's father. You talk about Venus and Serena. You talk about Novak Djogovitch from war-torn Serbia. Yeah, true. Then you tell me that only... Fuck, no. No, it's not it.

Maybe gymnastics is comparable in that way. You're either good enough or you're not.

You don't need a full team to get to the highest level.

It's just a really rad part that I feel like they're not telling the story enough. They're not amping that up. They're not doing the prelude to that. This guy's on a run, and he's only ranked this, but this could be his weekend. Building in the human drama of it.

I once had a... You know people who are really great at their job are able to take complex concepts and make them into a sound bite? Yeah. So I had a quick lunch with Al Michals, and I was going over to cover a match for BBC at Wimbledon. He goes, Just whatever you do, don't tell me what's happening. Tell me why it's happening.

Ah, great.

That's great. And it was very clear. Yeah. My job is to tell you what the score is. Your job is to tell me why the score is what it is and what needs to change for it to change. To your point, I don't think we often in tennis, which we try to do on our show, why is this happening? Why is it a difficult matchup? Why is it someone's good forehand, good back? No, the forehand in different spots and regions on the cork, you can actually manipulate. It's not all the same.

This show match point that Box to Box does. I think that's what it's called. That's great. Because again, it introduces you to the personalities. Why did F1 explode? Drive to survive. These guys wear helmets. You can't root for a dude who's a face you've never seen. You don't know his story. It's like that needs to get infused, obviously. But yeah, it is such a pure and wonderful sport. The mental fuck of it, man. I don't know that there's a sport like it. The mental of that game is just insane.

It's like chess.

There's no other sport where you can't really talk to anyone. You're just there. I didn't know it was weird, and now I know it's weird. Yeah. I set up in the stands of the US Open last year and was just catching a match, and I'm just watching these two people go about their thing.

This is a weird sport. We're watching almost like a very private thing.

But even the locker rooms on the last day, so you get there day one, and it's a train station. People from the qualifying tournament, 128 main draw, double. There's hundreds of players in this locker room.

It's like the first day of college class where everyone's dropped out.

I can only assume that's the case. I don't know. I can't see from experience. But then you walk in the last day, and it's just you and one other person.

Oh, that is so It's so weird.

It's so quiet.

Oh, my God.

It's like squid games. It happens. It is. Every day you lose- People. Yeah. Every day you lose a quart of the draw.

Yeah. That's such a mindfuck.

Just two people in a locker room.

It's so weird. Yeah, that is great. It's so weird. You walk in, then you walk past the person. It's like, Hey.

Hey, this is stressful.

So awkward. Have a good day. I mean, don't. I don't know. I know. What do you say?

Good luck. Actually, no.

Eat shit? Can't say that either.

One of the things people are loving about your show is that You're not afraid to take people to task. I do want you to just tell me, what's this situation with this billionaire Bill Ackman?

That's what I thought you were talking about when you was billionaire, you said so... Oh, I said Bill Gates. Bill Ackman, one, he's funding a lawsuit against the A2B tours, basically saying there aren't enough jobs and a bunch of other things. And not a lot of people have signed up. They basically have this thing that they say they're a players union, but the players haven't agreed to it. Right. I'm like, I don't know where that leaves us. So we had a contentious with his CEO from that thing a year ago on our show. Bill is obviously brilliant at what he does. He's a brilliant investor, polarizing half the country likes what he says, half the country doesn't, fancies himself like a tennis player. It's like, I'm good. One thing I don't want to do is make someone into a cartoon because he's very serious, accomplished, great at what he does.

That's good.

Takes a wild card into a pro event, and it was the Hall of Fame. I love the people at the Hall of Fame, strongly disagreed with them on air, strongly disagree with them behind the scenes. In every conversation I have. We've made our piece. I went to the induction last. We were great. I said on the show, and I believe it, it was a minor league event.

Who's Jack Sock? That was his doubles partner.

He's a guy who's won a couple of majors in doubles. Was a good singles player, well known. He's a Ringer.

Yes. What's that mean? What do we mean? Brought in with an unfair advantage.

Oh, oh, oh, oh. But not even because- To lift. No, but Jack doesn't even play. He's not even on tour anymore. It'd be like, Triple A baseball. Great players, striving to make a living, do their thing, break through. That's what we're talking about. Yes. Bill Ackman decides he's going to go play. It'd be like him going and saying, I'm 60 years old. I'm a great pitcher. I'm going to go pitch in a Triple A baseball game. Right. And I think I can do it well. The other guys are playing... The memes are incredible. One of them set to the Kirby enthusiasm theme song, where it's like they're just hitting the ball back to him. So I just went on in like I said, this is the biggest clown show I've ever seen in pro tennis. It's shameful. You can't tell me people should have more jobs and then take one of the spots that week. It's just there are parts that I don't like. And if Bill wants to do it, Bill can do it. My personal belief, and I'm going to get text from the Hall of Fame, I don't believe that the Hall of Fame should have allowed it.

I think it's beneath the Hall of Fame, your job is to preserve and celebrate greatness. This was not it by a long shot. This was a stunt. I said what I said. I went in the studio hot. Good for you. I didn't talk about it again.

I thought it was very funny. It was a clown show. Okay, very last thing. I just think it's funny that, or I like that Austin is such a home base for you. I was how bad I'm moving to Austin. Then what I was also debating is like, Or do I go to Asheville? And I love Asheville. We ended up I've been Nashville, and I love that. But you have a place in the Blue Ridge. So I'm going mid-October with my best friend from Detroit. We're going to leave Nashville, ride vehicles, be stationed in Nashville, and then do rides every day out of there. And just how lovely is the Blue Ridge.

Oh, my goodness. Blue Ridge Mountains is heaven. We don't have each other. Get it off. I'm going to send you places you need to stop. Do the whole thing. It's magic. Honestly, there's no better thing than just getting outside and feeling small. It's the best. We spent our summers up in this place, and you look at a bald-face and our kids go and throw rocks at streams all day.

I took my daughter when she was three. That's awesome. Just the two of us went to Asheville. We went to Looking Glass Falls, Sliding Rock. Anyway, we sat in a river for seven hours and played, and I'm like, This place calls me. This is special. I don't know. In that way, I feel like we're long lost brothers because we're being pulled to all the same places. Everybody listened to Served with Andy Roddick. This is great. You have the number one tennis podcast for a reason. I hope everyone checks it out. This has been goddamn delightful. Yeah, I appreciate you.

It's fun. I had to check myself. I'm such a huge fan of the show.

I'm really happy to be on. Thank you.

All right. Be well. Cheers. Thank you.

We hope you enjoyed this episode. Unfortunately, they made some mistakes. I'm going to tell you This has lifted my spirit, so I want to thank you.

Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm happy about that. Yeah.

I entered feeling like I was dying, and now I feel happy. Good.

Conversation can do that.

Especially when it's revolving around Travis's penis.

Oh, is that what did it?

No, it's just a lot of laughing. You said I'd spray on my lip, which I did, technically. You did. Nicotine spray. Spray, not Spray-Spray.

That's right. And not pea from your catheter.

No, not orange. Mcdonald's orange.

Did you?

Did I what? Did I save some?

I want to taste it.

Rob, will you put a picture up of the McDonald's orange drink, just so we can check in with the color? Because I want you to know. Yeah, you see that? Orange drink? Oh, wow.

Yeah. And that's not orange soda?

I think it's high C, maybe. It's more like a high C. I remember at a birthday party, you could get the big jug, that big McDonald's cooler dispenser, and you dumped the powder in and then the water, and then it was... That was the orange drink. So I don't think it was carbonated. But they probably did have orange soda as well.

In the fountain.

We moved past that part. Yeah, we're going to move on. Well, no.

It's not worth 10 fact check. I have one more question, though. Okay. Because we did move past me being correct about the UTI. Oh, because When you were in pain, I was like, It sounds like a UTI, and sometimes some men do get them sometimes.

Sure.

Were you like, I don't want a UTI. That's a women's thing. Did you feel emasculated a little bit?

No. Which is not to say I couldn't. Sure. But all these things is like, what's the chain of events? Yeah, what happened? If you have an infection in your prostate, and then that gets into your urethra, then you have a UTI. Is it a UTI that then somehow infected my prostate or did I have prostitis? And I don't think we'll ever know. But because it's not obvious to me, I didn't go down the path of like, Jesus, how did I get a UTI? Fuck the guy and I didn't pee afterwards. Exactly. That's generally how the women I know in my life get it.

Well, no, you can get it a lot of ways. It could have been... Sorry. It could have been a wiping situation.

You don't wipe your penis.

I think you accidentally Oh, Jesus. Got some duty. No, Monica. Okay, I'm just... I did not.

That would be impossible.

It was an accident. No, it's not impossible. You could have duties. As we talk about, you duty sometimes in the toilet. Yeah. Then maybe just the penis hit it on it really quickly.

It bounced into the bowl, and it touched just a very duty. I still think, and this is why guys don't get it as much. We have a lot longer distance between there and the bladder. Exactly. Where you need the UTI to really take- That's right.

Fine purchase. Wipping is a different scenario, but that's why I don't think this was wiping.

I would have peed. The odds of that in your hypothetical, making its way all the way to my bladder, are very low, which is why I think it's rare that guys get them. But people got to be tired of my medical condition.

Normally, UTIs are first, and then it starts spreading everywhere. Okay. And that's bad.

Okay. Well, the guy did say the prostate is hard to get medicine into, and it's hard for infection to get out of it. It's in its own little universe.

Stubborn.

Yeah, it's got a nice, I guess, protective barrier.

It lives on its own island, physically and emotionally.

I think people are up for a GLP-1 update. I've heard people ask, Hey, what's the updates? And then I certainly would like one. Okay.

Well, we can do a mini update because we're probably going to have Dr. Isaacson on a fact check coming up to talk about all of our blood results.

Oh, yeah.

He says we both have interesting results, and so I'm curious.

Oh, wow. What that will be. Interesting as.

When we first got our results after the first cognitive test, and he did all the blood work and went through it all, he basically said I was a medical marvel.

Okay.

I forget why.

Was it a good medical Marvel? Yeah. Oh, it was?

It was like really unique stuff was happening.

I think anomaly might be a better word than Marvel.

I prefer medical Marvel.

Okay.

And one thing, I don't remember if we talked about this back then, but they found randomly this one little gene, one little elevation in numbers on this one little thing, and no one would really look at it because who cares? But they looked and then they did a deep dive, and that correlates to late onset epilepsy.

Whoa, really? Isn't that crazy? Wow. In a world where CRISPR is over the counter, do you think you get that gene edited out and you go off of your CAPRA?

Wow, that's a great question because would I feel safe enough to go off of the medicine even if I knew the gene itself was cut out?

Because you got to remember in order. It's like you went on CAPRA and then you needed to go on antidepressants. I shouldn't say needed. No, I did need to. You went on CAPRA and then you went on antidepressants. Yeah.

But we have different... I think Well, look, Kepra can be associated with depression. But I believe deeply that that was... Again, it was I had a seizure. I had to put on this medication. Covid. Started right away. Started. So much was happening that it just pushed me over the edge.

Yeah, hard to parse out.

It's hard to parse out. Me, knowing me, Knowing my family history, I believe I needed antidepressants before that and would have needed it regardless. But who knows? Who knows? Who knows? I I wonder if I would feel safe enough to get off of it.

Also, antidepressants often cause weight gain.

They can, yes. They can.

Then there's a fourth thing in the mix that causes This is weight reduction. At least from my perspective, it does look like there could be a whole chain of events that starts with one thing. It'd be interesting if you didn't have that one thing where we're at with all the other stuff.

I don't know.

I don't know either.

I don't know. I know for sure that being on the TRIZ has not impacted my mood. For a while, I was like, Oh-We call it just Appetite TRIZ. Oh, yeah. I think for a while, I thought, Oh, maybe there'll be a reduction in anxiety or depression because I had heard that there might be some things there. Sure. That is not the case for me.

But again, I think that's like, if one of your things is you're in a constant shame spiral that you've eaten in a way that you don't want to eat, but you keep eating, and this thing stops that, then of course it's going to impact depression. Right. That's true. But you're not there. That's not you.

Yeah, correct.

You weren't living in any shame spiral.

I mean, the drinking, that's part of the mix. And that's been interesting to follow that whole journey. That was one of the main reasons I wanted to do it was to see my relationship with it. And at first, I did notice a change. I think what I said was I was drinking less.

Frequency the same.

Exactly. Amount is less.

With dosage, lower.

And I I think that's still correct. I think for sure I reached my capacity earlier, but I still drink every day, basically. That's been a bummer.

A let down.

But part of that is it's mental. There will be, and this is bad, but there will be times where I'm like, I'm not even in the mood to drink. I don't really want to, but I'm here, and I will. So that's- Whatever that is. I don't know what that is. Habit, I guess, or just, Oh, we're out. I might as well.

Look at Charlie Sheen. Do you finish the doc? No. The craziest thing is no one could get him off crack. They couldn't figure out how to get them off crack. So they convinced his dealer, because his dealer loved them, to start titrating. Because you make Coke out of cocaine, I'm sorry, you make crack out of cocaine, cocaine, he could add however much baking soda he wanted to dilute it. And over the course of a year, he just reduced the crack to having almost no cocaine in it. And eventually, Charlie's just thinking, Well, I've reached the capacity. I can no longer get high. And he stopped. Really? Yeah, he's just like, I don't know why the fuck I'm doing this. It doesn't do anything. And then he switched to drinking. Then he became a really bad alcoholic for a year or two. But they got him off of crack by tricking him and titrating him. So what's interesting is you're at the point where it's like you've been titrated in a way that you're like, I don't even really want it. But just the muscle memory and habit is like, But I'm going to do it.

But it's interesting if someone could trick you the same way. And all of a sudden, had no alcohol. At some point- I think I would still do it.

You would still do it, yeah. Like right now, I'm like- I'm in.

Sounds good.

Yeah, it's weird. I have noticed It's just like, Oh, I don't really... Okay, sure. I'll get a Martina. I'm not craving it, I guess, in the same way. So that is interesting. It's just so social. Yeah, it's a good time. It's not even that it's a good time. I mean, it is a good time. But it's- What you do. Just what you do. It's something to have in your hand. I don't know. Maybe I'm heading towards sobriety. It doesn't sound like it based on everything I just said.

Well, you're on a medecine.

Yeah. But also, I have definitely lost weight.

We don't know how much.

It was not the goal, and I don't know how much because I don't weigh myself.

But what's interesting is Dr. Isaacson did weigh us on intake, but we didn't get weighed at this.

I know.

So I think we need to get weighed. He's going to want to know that. I'm dying to know what the difference is for you.

I'm curious.

I think you've lost about 65 pounds. This is like, could be the biggest minefield ever to play a game. How much do you think I lost?

I know.

60, 70 pounds? I don't know. What do you think?

There's a lot of traps in this conversation because I don't mean to trigger anyone. I can only talk about me and my body. I'm small. I've always been small because somebody asked, Oh, have you had to go down in size on your pants? People are going to hate me for saying this. No, because I already wore the smallest size.

Okay, right. There's nowhere else to go.

So, yeah. So it's not like, Oh- Are you safety pinning any of your- So yesterday, I did put on a pair of pants, and I was like, Oh, they are about to fall off. So I've lost weight in a way that I don't want to lose more weight. I don't want that. I I saw my parents for my aunt, and the first thing my mom saw me and she said, You've lost a lot of weight. And I was like, No, I don't think so since summer. And she was like, Yes, I think so. And then I went to the next room and saw my dad, first thing he said.

Okay, there's a lot going on here. A, they're already dealing with something of sadness. So is she depressed? Is that the explanation for the weight loss?

Oh, sure.

So that's an obvious fear. But I'll add that when I go back to... I used to go back to Michigan, and people treated me like I had full-blown eight. They're like, Why are you so thin? Totally concerned. I was like, I just got to acknowledge the baseline of what way too thin is in LA is just way different. Yes. And truthfully, I'm with six of my friends growing up, and they've all got that... They're all hovering around 2: 35, and they got a nice gut they've earned, and that is how you look. So when you don't have it, it looks crazy to them.

It'd be one thing if it was the other family members who said that. But my parents do see me... They saw me in the summer, and And they have... Again, I've always been small, so it's not like they're like, Why aren't you looking thicker? I think to them, it was drastic.

Yeah.

Whatever. That's whatever the weight. Except, I will be honest, and Dr. Richard Isaacson is really not going to like this, but it is the truth. I have lost a lot of muscle.

Oh, yeah.

And that bad. I've been trying to actively build bone density. Farmers carry. I haven't done Farmers carry.

I'm afraid to ask you, but how much effort have you put into the muscle retention?

No, because now they're too heavy. Shit. Okay? So now we're in a weird... Now I don't really know what to do because I'm weaker. Oh, boy. I'm definitely weaker.

There is a new one, as you know. There's a new one that you're going to be able to switch to very shortly that specifically prevents that muscle loss. Oh, really? Yeah, there's a new one. I'm seeing different people on my feed talk about it. Okay. And I guess it's close to being approved, but yeah. It's like a triple inhibitor.

Oh, it's a GLP-3?

Yeah. Well, it's like a semaglutide plus this plus that, and it does counter that muscle loss issue that is quite prevalent.

Okay, that's interesting. But it's hard because what I like about this GLP-1 is I feel safe on But there's been, at this point, so many studies you've had enough people on that have been like, It's pretty good. To do this other one feels a little more risky. I should probably just try to do more farmer's carries, but they're so heavy.

Yeah. Oh, boy. I'm starting to get nervous you're going to fall down in your apartment and just be like,.

I did. I will.

You shouldn't have lost your ability to carry those things you could carry two months ago. I know.

So quickly. But I was stronger.

Right. But you needed to stick with it a little more, I think. I don't know how to say this, but you- They were heavy. You made me do 40. Yeah, but they wouldn't have been heavy if you never stop.

I know, but then I was tired.

If I don't squat for a month and a half, I'm not going to be able to go squat 250 like my normal thing. I'm going to have to drop down. But you can Within a couple of weeks, you can be back.

I can work my way back. I can. I have to start off with fives.

Whatever it takes. Then next week, you do 10.

I do. I need to. I am a little nervous about the lack of muscle.

I don't want to yell at you, but I want you to...

I know. I'm aware of it. It's bad. That's the one thing before I got on it, Dr. Richard Eisen was very clear that I needed to monitor the muscle and make sure I was... And I didn't do it. It's okay. I didn't do it.

Look, we're not perfect, Monica.

I know that. I have to get back on that, and I will. I have been really tired. Maybe I just have a bug. But there are these weird cycles where you're eating less, and so you have less energy, and so you don't want to work out because you have less energy. That part's bad. I do need to break that cycle. I have been going to bed at seven for the past couple of nights and sleeping till eight.

I have two, but I'm dying.

I know, you're sick.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I have thought, this isn't exactly right.

I'm a little concerned with these updates. Going to put it at seven. It was weird. I can't lift 5 pounds. I weigh somewhere around 76 pounds. No, I don't. But I'm still drinking. The only thing I'm staying...

The only thing I've really committed to?

Because even I don't even want him, but I get through it.

I force it down.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, If You Dare. No, but you know what? I think you got to try the Mel Robbins 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 approach to this.

Okay.

Which is her first book, and she became wildly popular over it. Easter egg. Well.

Which is- When is it an Easter egg, and when am I just telling people?

Well, that's- That's the question. That's too big of an Easter egg. If I say Mel Robbins, and then you say Easter egg, But her thing is, you think of what you want to do, and I want to get out of bed. And then you start thinking, it's cold out there. I don't want to get out of bed. As soon As your brain starts, you're not going to get out of bed. But the second, if you can start training yourself, the second you have a thought like, I should do... You'll be sitting in your house, I should do some farmer carries. And then immediately go five, four, three, two, one, and on one stand up and do it. Because you're interrupting that cycle of convincing yourself not to do the thing you know you have to do. I like that. She's like, People are just waiting for motivation to hit them, and it doesn't. That's not what happens. You have to interrupt. And this is a very well-worn technique that works. Okay. So I don't know. Report back. Let's see. Try the 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. The second you think of something, just immediately go 5, 4, 3, 2, 1, and stand up and do it.

Okay. So it'll be like, I don't really want a martini. Five, four, three, two, one.

No, you don't need any help to have- Shake, shake, shake, shake. You're already doing it somehow with not wanting the martini and having it.

No, this is good. That's helpful. That's good for my farmer' carries. But the problem is, you encouraged me when I was very strong to do 240s, and I could do that. I bought those. Now, I don't have the right equipment. I don't have 230s.

Right. But I think a standard farmer carry goal is your body weight.

Right. Which I don't know what that is.

Well, you know it's above 80 pounds. It's above 80, yeah. But that's- Listen, 80 is not too heavy for you. It's just you're not going to be doing it as long as you want to, but you got to do it. You just do that weight and do it for however long you can, count, and then next time, you got to do it one second longer.

Okay. All right. I'll try. Okay. I can't do it right now because we're in the... I can't do five, four.

Five? You just stood up. You go five for it, then you...

Just left. Well, all right. I do. Okay, so those are the updates. I guess they're mixed.

Yeah, it's mixed.

When we get our blood work, we'll know more. I am really, really curious about that. I'm very curious about my cholesterol and even blood sugar and things like that.

Yeah, me too.

So TBD on that.

Tbdizl. For this motorcycle trip? Yeah, you're going on a trip. I'm going to send you a picture, Rob. Can you put it on the screen? Sure, can. Do you want me to email it? Yes, please. Okay.

Yeah, you're going on a trip.

Yeah, this is so exciting. I'm so lucky and I want to own this because if I was a dude listening to this, I'd be like, You know what? Fuck you. You have money. But I have great relationships with all these different motorcycle manufacturers. I go to track events with them. I'll be in their videos, whatever. And so people loan me stuff, which is so awesome. Yeah.

Sustainable.

Very sustainable. And I have a motorcycle down in Tennessee. I have a gorgeous Motagutsi. I have not gotten the title yet to plate it. So it's like, I've got this great tour bike that I'm dying to ride on this motorcycle trip, and I can't ride it because there's no plates.

You're going to let that stop you?

Well, I wasn't going to. I was like, Okay, I'm going to bring a plate from one of my other motorcycles and just slap it on there and then pray I don't get pulled over. Or if I get pulled over, or if I get pulled the guy doesn't know the difference between a Motogutsi and a Ducati. Of course, I was going to go the outlaw route. But then the responsible part was like, Hey, you've got a couple of good relationships. Why don't you see if you can borrow a bike while you're down there? Also, a lot of these places are based in Atlanta. So it's not that far. So I was able to borrow two motorcycles for Aaron and I. Because also, Aaron was going to drive 600 miles on his motorcycle. He was going to ride for basically 12 hours to my house and then get up in the morning to ride with me for 400 miles. And then at the last minute, he's like, I can't do it. I'm going to rent a truck, and I'm going to put the motorcycle. And I was like, Hold on, let me just see if I... And then you could fly in.

It'd be so much easier. I got this super awesome Harley Panamerica, which I've never ridden, and they've gone It's full gusto. It's super fast. Crazy good breaks. I'm really excited. And then, and if anyone is into motorcycles, growing up, you're like a Goldwing. That's like a grandpa's motorcycle.

Okay. It's like catheter?

It's like a catheter. I don't want to say that because Honda is their loan of means.

I love Honda.

Yes. So growing up, you're like, Oh, yeah, that's for old guys. So I hit Honda up. I'm like, Hey, do you have anything in the fleet? And then my man said, I'm going to pitch you the Gold Wing. For this ride, I'm just going to consider the Gold Wing. I was like, You know what? I think I am up for a Gold Wing. So this is a big moment for me. Okay. Okay, Rob, please show the picture. So the Gold Wing arrived yesterday. Monica, look at this motorcycle. Look how big the back seat is. First of all, it's a six-cylinder motorcycle, which is bonkers. What does that mean? Ducatis are generally twins, two cylinders. Maximum four in line. This is a six-cylinder. And this back seat. I sent this picture to Aaron.

It looks like a first-class plane seat.

Absolutely. Even the rider's seat is incredible. And then you see the speakers built in? I've got a huge sound system. I sent this picture to Aaron, and immediately we both had the same thought. We were like, Why are we going to bring two motorcycles?

You guys are going to ride Tana.

Look at this thing. Isn't it begging for just the two of us to be on this motorcycle?

Will you both sit?

Oh, my God. Look at that back seat.

Where do you... Is the back seat where you sit?

No, you see that big backrest? That's the passenger. Then you look lower. That's where my butt goes. There's a little lip. I'll point. Oh.

This is for the passenger. Oh, my God. Yes, and I'm How can you see above?

I'm thinking I'd rather be a passenger on this thing with Aaron riding and me just sightseeing the fall colors. Yeah, so I'm entering the gold wing phase of in my life. Wow. I'm done being cool.

You're ready for comfort.

Oh, my God. That thing looks so fucking comfortable. It might ride itself there.

Wow. Oh, my God. All right.

I just wanted to show you.

That's going to be cute, you two on there together.

I mean, we're going to bring the second one. Oh, you are. But who knows? We might do, because we're going to do rides every day and come back to Asheville. We might take a two-up ride one of these days.

You should. I think so. Are you guys going to stay in a cute hotel?

Yeah, we got a cute little- Built more? No. The vacancy was almost nonexistent because people do go there for the colors, I realized, because I searched everywhere, and I was two months out when I booked this. And there was slim fucking pick-ins, but we're in a cool little boutique hotel downtown. And then I hit up our sweet boy, Luke Holmes. Oh, yeah. Asheville native. Yeah. I said, Where should I eat? And he's like, Boom, boom, boom. The ribs here are impossibly good. Go here for fish. Not going to happen, but whatever.

You could try it. Not going to try it. You could enter that phase of your life, too.

I've tried it. Okay. Okay.

Facts? Okay, facts.

Thanks for indulging my motorcycle, sorry.

Yeah, that's fun. I'm excited to hear. I hope you guys are careful. I have to say that.

Yeah, we will be.

And I hope you have so much fun.

Thank you.

Wow. That was a fun one. It was. And it's fun to have sports experts on, like athletes. I guess they're called athletes.

He was also very mature, was my conclusion. I was like, I felt like we were peers, but I am nine years older than him.

Well, he's lived just such a big life. Yeah. And he does have a very evolved perspective on it, I think.

I agree.

Yeah. I enjoyed him a lot.

We felt contemporary, but we weren't.

Well, at what age are you not like- Well, let's just put it this way.

I was graduating when he was in third grade.

I know. But once you hit a certain age, when are you not contemporary?

It does diminish.

Yeah.

Like a 60-year-old in A 50-year-old are far different than a 10-year-old and a 20-year-old.

Exactly.

I think when you're over 40- Or a 10-year-old is zero years old.

I think if you're 40 or above, you're all the same.

I saw a really comforting graph this morning. I think it was in the New York Times, and it was... Oh, yeah, because Harvard has done a very, very long study on a lot, a lot of people about happiness. So all this data has come out of this, the happiness study at Harvard, I guess.

Oh, and it's new.

I think I'm getting that Well, in that there's always going to be updates, right? Because they've been studying them long term. So I'm sure there was revelations midway through the study. So one of the fun revelations is the income achievement level of all the people in the study, there were many, was not influenced whatsoever by their IQ. There's no correlation. Interesting. So I love that one. It's like you thought you did shitty on IQ test. You didn't do good in school. It doesn't mean shit. As far as just at least that. But anyways, in this chart I saw, there's a very predictable curve for everyone's happiness. The lowest point across the board, men and women, is like 50, 53. Then it just starts going up and up and up, and it gets as high as it'll ever get your happiness in your 60s. What? Really? I was like, Well, that's great news. I just lived through or I'm currently living through the worst time. I can't even imagine how happy I'm going to be in 10 years. I really like this That's weird.

Makes sense for women because menopause. I wonder why men.

I think the stress of, am I going to make it? Can I support everyone? All that's on your shoulder. You're getting a glimpse of, you made it. You're going to get across the finish line. Failure is off the table. You did it. You have a savings in your home. Family safe. I think a lot of the pressure that you put on yourself evaporates.

Oh, you mean- Oh, you're saying- Professionally- No, yeah. I guess I meant, why is it so low? In your 50s? Yeah.

Well, I think it's that, as we would say, that inflection point between I have this identity, go build, go create, save, buy something. And then this little bit of a moment of like, in For what? Again, these are like, this is the broad arc of data, which is most people in whatever their given profession is, generally, they hit their peak financial effectiveness in their 50s. That's when people get paid. Whatever your chosen It goes in occupation. That is where it doesn't happen in your 30s or 40s. It generally happens in your 50s. And then you're halfway through life, so you're depressed.

That's what I was about to say. I bet maybe you're really... Age becomes very present when you turn 50.

And I'm halfway done, and all I did was work. But I think most people are looking at this moment going, I'm so sick of working. It didn't make me feel awesome. And I can't quit because they're finally paying me what I deserve. And I got to get paid this number. So they might be looking That's what they're doing. They're waiting for a 10-year-out window before they're happy.

If they're waiting for social security, they are waiting a bit.

Or just your standard retirement age.

Yeah, which I think normally, I think 65s. Yeah. But yeah, so that's really interesting.

So my happiest years are like, ahead of me and yours, too.

That's great. My saddest years are ahead of me, too. I don't love that. I don't love. That's not great. That's not great. Okay.

There's They're just slightly like the graphs are slightly like the low points a little different for women than the men. But in general, it's only off by a few years, and it is the exact same curve, right? It's like, follows the same trajectory.

Interesting. Also, part of it maybe is that on average, probably around that age, 50, 53, your kids are maybe leaving. Not here, not in LA. Not in LA. But on average in the country, probably that age, your kids might be heading out on their own. That's depressing.

You've just gotten through the teenage years.

Or, yeah, exactly. Huh? Very interesting.

Yeah, but all very positive and optimistic.

Yeah, great. Okay. I can get through those three years. Who? Who can't? What will I do? Okay. His brother went to Georgia. I just wanted to say, go dogs.

Yeah, go dogs. Go dogs. It's been a big dog's day here in the garage.

I know. That's an Easter.

I don't like saying garage. It doesn't have the same ring as attic.

I say garage. We can't say attic.

Well, we can't say attic because we're not in the attic. Exactly. But I wish garage had the same. And it should. Garage band, garage beer. There's a lot of cool garage. But I don't know. I like- You think it's...

Well, the attic is very special.

Yeah. Very few people have an attic space that they've met a clubhouse out of, but a garage- Yeah, it's probably a lot of people have garage podcasts. Yeah, yeah.

But this is where we are. We're in a garage. Yeah. Now, you're probably upset about that because you're 50, but I'm not.

Yeah, you haven't bottomed out yet. You're not at the Nadir.

That's right. Okay. His brother's name is John, in case anyone wants to look him up.

I wonder if his brother is as cute as him and if he's single.

Let's see. He coaches. He's a coach.

Most coaches are married, I think.

Yeah, I think so, too. It doesn't say on his Wikipedia.

I can text Andy in this.

He's 49. Okay.

I thought he was going to go.

He's about to be depressed.

Yeah. Shit. Okay. Okay. Let me kick this down the road. You're 48, and he's coming out the other side.

What's the Happy Gilmore quote? He half said a Happy Gilmore quote. It's, Golf requires goofy pants and a fat ass.

Oh, I don't even know that quote.

It's from Happy Gilmore. Okay. Okay, yeah. He had the record for the fastest serve, but now it's Sam Groff, and that's 116. 3.

No, 116.

3. No, 1163. He was 155. Oh, my God.

It's at 163 now? You're right. He had been thrown by someone at 156, but now it's jumped to 163.

Yeah. Was that a challenger event? Challenges. I love that movie.

Yeah. Threesome.

I love that movie.

Really hope you have a threesome one day with a couple of real dream boats. Me too. Yeah. Sounds so fun. It's like a four-hands massage.

I mean, the threesome thing is just so interesting because, again, it has to be so specific. For me, it has to be two men I find extremely attractive. Yes.

But again, what I have found in my own experiments, you'll like one more than the other. Then you're like, I just wish I was with this one.

Why do you want this for me?

I still want it for you. It'd be fun.

It sounds like a lot of anxiety. Well, maybe, hopefully, best case, they're good at different things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So then it's very titulating. Yeah. Okay. Honey Deuce, he said, is a Shambord Lemonade Gray Goose Sprite. I think he pretty much nailed it.

Okay.

It is Gray Goose Lemonade. Rasbury L'Core is such a Shambord Honeydou Melon Balls. This doesn't say Sprite, but he's probably right. He knows his tennis.

He seem to know his shit. Yeah.

I'm really excited.

And you'll be seeing him next year at it.

I'm excited to one day have this. Do you know why it's called Honeyduce?

Could you guess? I mean, deuce is part of tennis.

Yeah, good job. It's a tennis term for a tied score of 40-40. That seems like something that would come up in my mix.

I've only heard deuce. I've never heard anyone call it honey dews, but that's great. Oh, no.

Honey because the honey du malin. Okay. Okay. He said, Mayor Dinkins changed the flight pattern so it wouldn't fly over the US open. I thought that was so interesting for someone. Yeah. Priorities. That's so crazy. But it makes sense in Yeah, he did it. Changed the flight pattern of planes over the US Open in 1990 by negotiating with the Federal Aviation Administration, FAA, to reroute takeoffs from LaGuardia Airport to avoid the noise over Fleshing Meadows, Corona Park.

It was on that day, I assume.

Yeah. In exchange, the city agreed to pay the US Tennis Association up to $325,000 annually for excessive flyovers that occurred during the tournament.

That's where they built in a penalty. It was like a favor. Then on top of it, I'm going to penalize you if you violate it.

Yeah, that's weird. Yeah.

Good for them. They had a good negotiator.

Okay. Silver being worse than Bronze, the Silver Metal Complex, also known as Silver Metal syndrome, a psychological phenomenon where second-place finishers, silver medalists, often appear less happy than third-place Bronze Metalysts because they engage in upward counter factual thinking, focusing on what they could have done to achieve the first place rather than appreciating their accomplishment. In contrast, bronze medalists tend to focus on the alternative of finishing in fourth place or not receiving a medal at all, leading to a greater satisfaction with their outcome. Yeah.

If your friend says, I have SMS, don't think like, Yeah, we all have SMS texting. Think they have Silver Metal Syndrome.

And then you can ask if they have SAD.

Seasonal Affected Disorder. That's right. And then you can ask if they have UTI, urinary tract infection.

And you should ask because they might be struggling Like you are. Okay, I looked up the most expensive sports because we started talking about how tennis is a lot of... There's a lot of meritocracy. We feel like it's pretty meritocratized.

Maritocratic?

I like meritocratized.

Okay, it's nice. Like democratized. Yeah.

To participate at the highest levels, Formula One racing, equestrian sports, polo, and competitive sailing are among the most expensive sports in the world.

Yeah. Those have some pretty devastating built-in costs. Exactly.

These sports require massive investments in elite equipment, maintenance, logistics, and skilled personnel. Oh, also high-cost youth sports, ice hockey, says an average annual cost of $2,583 per or child.

Ice Hockey is rough because you got to get ice time at places throughout the year when you're not by a frozen lake or if you live in any state without frozen lakes. Yeah. So ice time becomes really pricey.

And then field hockey, ice. Okay, those are youth. Now, it says elite-level individual sports. Golf.

Is most expensive?

Yeah. It says high-end clubs can cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for a membership. Professional players pay for equipment, caddies, coaches, travel, and tournament fees, which exceed one million per year.

One million per annum.

What's that mean? A year. Per annum?

Per annum. Oh, wow. Don't you like... It's a gentle way to say. That was cool. Yeah, per annum.

Skiing is also on here. And boxing.

Is it affordable ones?

No, those are high. Okay. Yeah, those are high.

They don't have boxing rings on every corner in the city, but they do have parks.

Yeah. Training camp, sparring partners, and specialized coaching and nutrition.

Nutrition.

Yeah. Well, that's interesting. Let me see. I think I got them all, but let me just double check. That's it. That's everything. That's everything for Andrew Rodet.

We love them. We were charmed.

Very charmed. Charmed, I'm sure. What is charmed, I'm sure?

Charmed, I'm sure.

I don't get it.

It sounds like a sarcastic way to say you're charming.

Is it like, okay, if you're talking to me and we're shaking hands, who says it? Who's charmed? Charmed.

Yeah. I feel like I would have, I'd say it like, They were charmed, I'm sure. By you? Yeah. You're telling me, Then I met so-and-so. Charmed, I'm sure. They were? I don't know.

I know, but normally it happens, I feel like in a greeting, like in the old times. Oh, yeah. They would greet each other and say, Charmed, I'm sure. So are they talking about themselves? No. Like, I just charmed you, I'm sure?

No, no. I think they're sure that they've been charmed by their guest. Okay. They're sure of it. It's bad grandma. They were like, Let me check in. Yeah, I feel charmed. I think we owe it to everyone at the end of this ride to compile our 50 sexiest male guests. I'm just saying that Andy's definitely on the list.

Fifty feels like- Too many? Yeah. You're the one that always wants me to reduce the list.

But they'll be at that point. They'll be over 1,200 guests. To do 10 would be half a %. Okay. You're telling me- What do you want to keep it to? One %? I could agree to that.

It's either going to be 10 or 100 because you don't let me do hundreds, and you only let me do 10s.

Okay. Then it's going to be the top 10 sexiest. He's still on the list. Wow. But, man, you think of Carmelo Anthony, your pants exploded. You think of like- Brad Pitt? Brad Pitt, you think of- Maddie. Yeah, there's a fuck. There's a lot. We've had some thoroughbreds trot through here.

Alexander Scarsgar.

Oh, Boine.

Dwyane Wade. Did you know I learned in my Anne's Memorial, Kuma, sutra, K-U-M-A.

K-u-m-a.

Means fun. Oh, sure. It means fun, like full of life. Now that makes sense, kuma, sutra, like fun, sex.

Sexual fun.

Yeah, I learned a lot.

My favorite type of fun.

All right. All right.

Love you. Love you.

Follow Armchair Expert on the WNDRI app, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts.

You can listen to every episode of Armchair Expert early and ad-free right now by joining WNDRI Plus in the WNDRI app or on Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at wundri. Com/survey.