Transcript of Tackling Sports Streaming: The Hidden Cost of Watching Sports

Welcome to We Fixed It, You're Welcome, the show where we take over companies, you come along for the ride, and we try to put them back better than we found them.

Hey sports fans, how many streaming apps do you subscribe to these days to keep up with the games you care about? 2? 4? A whole spreadsheet's worth? Things used to be simpler.

Wanted to watch your team?

You turned on the TV. Now there's more to it.

You have to know which app's broadcasting which game, which subscription covers which network, and whether you specifically can see it based on where you live.

Leagues are chasing bigger rights deals and bigger audiences, and somehow the fan experience got really complicated.

Today we're digging into just that—

the business of sports streaming, pricing, access, and how it's impacting the people actually just trying to watch the game. Is this the way things are now? Can we create a better model? That's what we're here to fix. And we're adding to our own team today. Joining us is Renee Washington. She's worked across ESPN, CBS Sports, MSG Networks, and Philly Sports covering things like the NFL, NBA, WNBA, and college sports.

She's also a former La Salle soccer All-American and Hall of Famer.

And these days, she's involved with the Brooklyn FC women's soccer team as a content and broadcast lead.

Renee, welcome to the show.

Tell us a little bit more about your story.

Well, thank you, Aaron, and, and you guys for having me. It's such a pleasure joining you. And I'm thrilled we could make this happen. And I think it's very timely as we're getting into the transition into fall sports to have this conversation. So I've been working at the intersection of sports, business, technology in so many different capacities, whether it's, as you mentioned through the wonderful introduction, working as a sports reporter, an anchor, a host with various networks. I just came out of working with the World Cup, with FIFA. I was working with for the World Cup and then also have been actively involved with everything from the Winter Olympics with NBC Sports to college sports coverage to professional sports coverage, whether it's soccer, baseball, basketball, you name it, I've covered it. I've been there. And then also have my own company, Renee Washington Media and Consulting, where we actually give a lot of insight information around the marketing, the brand strategy, the behind the scenes of how businesses are growing to reach their audiences. And that's one of the core pieces we talk about. So a lot of alignment and a lot that I've seen even since my own journey back as a 3-time All-American professional soccer player to now of the evolution of sports and access.

So thrilled to be here, thrilled to dive into some of these topics with you guys.

Thanks, Renee. Thanks for being here. And I feel a lot better about our chances of fixing this now that you're here. Melissa, you're up to bat. How did watching my favorite team turn into the crowded landscape that it is today? And what does it mean for us fans?

Well, Renee, you teed us up greatly. Are you ready for some football? This is my favorite time of year. Kind of an ironic slogan because we are ready. We just can't find the game. Remember when watching your team just meant turning on the TV? Yeah, those days are gone. Because apparently, we have to follow— to follow one team means juggling 4, 5, 6 different services. One for Thursday night, one for Wednesday night, one for Sunday Ticket, one for Monday night, one for your local team, local broadcast. And my favorite and my must-have for NFL football is NFL RedZone. So it's not getting cheaper either. It's to keep up. ESPN just this week raising prices again. Unlimited's going from $29.99 to $31.99 a month right as football season kicks off. Of course it is. And baseball is not any different either. Major League Baseball spread its national games across 7 different platforms for 2026 through 2028: NBC, Peacock, Netflix, ESPN, Fox, TBS, and Apple TV+. 7. If you can tell me off the top of your head where to find tonight's game for your team, I want to hang out with you. You've got it covered.

And then there's the cautionary tale. So Diamond Sports, these guys ran 19 regional networks, carried the rights to 42 pro teams across the MLB, the NBA, the NHL, and collapsed under almost $9 billion in debt. That is horrible. But most of all, fans in those networks just lost their team overnight, not because they did anything wrong, but because the business behind the screen fell apart. And I don't even have to leave home to find one of these stories. Here in the Denver region, a contract blowup between Xfinity and Altitude Sports, owned by the Kroenke family, who also own the Colorado Avalanche and the Denver Nuggets, blacked us out from watching our own teams for 6 days.

6 years.

6 years. That was long enough for the Avs to win the Stanley Cup and the Nuggets to win an NBA title. And we couldn't watch it here in Denver. So Xfinity customers couldn't watch either one of them. So that was a total nightmare. Now I get the logic. There's a legitimate business case for all of this fragmentation. Leagues reach younger audiences, sell direct to fans, want more first-party data, offer more flexible viewing options. That's fair enough. It's a business. But here's the thing from the fans. More choice doesn't feel like a choice. It feels like work. It's 4 to 6 subscriptions. It's blackouts you didn't see coming and an app that crashes right as the game starts. We've talked about that when something happens with live streaming. So what's— that's what I want to dig into today. Is streaming actually giving us more access to sports or just more places where access can quietly break? Renee, you sit on both sides of that screen inside the broadcast booth and inside a newer league. Trying to build its audience from scratch. So when you hear all of this, does it match what you're actually seeing, or is it the industry missing something that fans and the executives both are getting wrong?

There's a couple underlying issues. I think for one, it comes down to money is most important. And I think there's— it's an arms race for every network to try to be involved. You look at Netflix, who's actually got the game tonight for the Thursday night game for the NFL. In Australia, and that 49ers Rams game is one that typically would be on Prime on a Thursday night. But because Netflix has their marquee day, they have the holidays of Thanksgiving. I believe they have Christmas tonight. We also saw Netflix take over for MLB for All Star, the All Star activities, which was amazing to be at in person, but crazy to watch on TV too. It's an arms race. Every network is trying to figure out a way to get involved with the media rights, and media rights. Are big, big money. You look at the NBA deal with NBC Sports coming into this NBA season— I'm sorry, last NBA season— the WNBA's been expanding with their media rights. A lot of revenue is generated through the media rights. And so we've moved beyond traditional cable that now people want to be able to have access the same way we have access to have Zoom conversations and jump on shows and have conversations like this on our phone, on our computer.

People want that same access for watching games. There used to be a time, and my parents always talk about it, and that my older relatives in that sense of the time when you would just gather on your TV to watch one NBA game per week. You might see a team, you might see Michael Jordan and the Bulls one time. You don't see them every day. We have access to not only every game. I know on my, from how I watch, I have opportunities to watch different versions. I can watch, let's say it's the 49ers broadcast versus the Rams broadcast versus the alt ball— Like there's so many broadcasts, even beyond access to every game, there's access to so many different types of broadcasts, which is why ESPN and different networks have also launched like the Manning Cast. Like it's just insane. So beyond even the actual media rights, there's the actual, when you watch a game, where do you watch? People are always trying to figure out YouTube TV and where do I get access on which app? What streaming app do I need today? So It's a lot, but it always boils down to money, in my opinion, of every network wanting to get their hand involved.

Sports are massive. They're generating billions and billions of dollars. They always have, but it's even bigger now. There's global expansion. There's the rise of international superstars. There's the rise and expansion of teams. There's the rise— like, we see the valuation. We just saw the Cowboys leading the world in valuation for how much they're worth. So That is why everyone's trying to get their hand in the pot. And I think the hard part is how do you balance that without it being overwhelming, without it being something that we're running into an issue now with of people don't know where to watch games.

I think it's really interesting too, because I think that the problem, you know, there's 3, 4 actually major things. So choice overload, right? There is, Melissa, you just said 7 different opportunities to watch like different games and at different times. And that decision fatigue, like we're, You know, the networks are now putting it onto the fans essentially to find out and figure out what app, you know, where is it local? Is it, you know, is this, you know, do I need to get the premium tier of this app? Did I renew my prescription? There's just a lot on the cognitive load for the fans. And what I wonder too, and we talk about, you know, kind of Diamond Sports, you know, as a cautionary tale and how much they lost. Because as you said, Renee, this is money. The rights are the money and they had the rights for a long term— time. But my worry is with, you know, all of this decision fatigue and fans essentially not knowing and putting it completely on them to figure out when things are happening, when blackout dates are there, what streaming service has the rights for what, you know, it gets into, um, a kind of a term called loss aversion, right?

Where people— It's essentially FOMO.

Right.

You, you, you, as you mentioned, Melissa, like your team just won twice. Um, and you couldn't watch any of it for 6 years. And I wonder what the downside of that is from like the fan experience. That's money right there that people aren't watching. And so you lose kind of that belonging to your team. Uh, you're, you're not involved in the day. You're not buying the merch because you just don't have access to watching what you're wanting. So I wonder where kind of the networks think about, you know, if there's 8, 7, you know, how many people are kind of running the rights of everything? Do they consider, you know, if there's so many blackouts and there's so many rules and regulations, how many people they're losing? Because, you know, I don't think everyone can get 7 or 8 apps at all time, right? Not everybody can do that. So, you know, what happens? to the people, like, you know, if you have to only pick one, are these larger networks not worried about kind of this FOMO and this loss of fans because of all of this decision fatigue? And is there a workaround around that?

I think Renee brought it up, the, up the point. It's a business decision. It's about the money. And so you bring up a really great perspective, and that's my perspective too, Gino, is the fan experience and what does that mean? But I don't think that plays as much as how much money are they going to be making? Because regardless of the fact that I couldn't watch, you know, in my home because I have Xfinity, I couldn't watch the Nuggets. I had to go someplace. So I'm gonna go to a bar. I'm gonna call around and find the bar. And they post it, like what bars actually have the other network so that they could actually show the games, right? So there is money involved, and people still are going to pay follow their teams, right? And now, like, I hate to say this, but like, you can pirate a lot of this stuff, right? So people, you know, like, I'll see my son pirating, like watching it on his phone, you know, like, or I'm like, what are you— how are you watching that? He's like, don't, don't ask, Mom. And so I do think it is a business decision.

It's not really trying to screw the fans so much because I think that they always know that the fan base is really important. But if you think about all the ways teams and the networks are making money through sponsorships and ticket sales and merch and food. I mean, gosh, it's $18 for a beer, you know, at the game. It's, it's amazing what an industry this is. And, you know, there's actually one league, and Renee, this probably hits close to home a little bit, even though it's the It's Major League Soccer. It's the, it's the MLS that actually has a contract with Apple Plus. So all their games are on there. But it was a money situation. So they proved that one app, one price, no blackouts, every match. But to be honest, the MLS did it because they were in a weaker position, negotiating position. And ESPN and Fox were really lukewarm on You know whether they should show these regional soccer games and da da da da. And so Apple came in and said, "We'll give you two and a half billion dollars over 10 years, and we have exclusive rights." Right? And it's great for the fans, but you know it again.

It's a money thing. It wasn't because they were like, "Oh, we can do this and have all of our games on Apple TV Plus." That's not what they were thinking. They were thinking. We get $2.5 billion and we can infuse that into our teams and, and grow the, grow the brand. And, and soccer with FIFA here this year, I mean, heck, it's, it's such a big thing. And Renee, you can also talk about the Women's League and then also in women's sports, that's all up and coming. So there's all of these avenues for these streamer streaming companies and, and they're not just streaming companies sports, right? Netflix, Prime Video, like they're all getting in, they're all getting their hands into this, and it's not just ESPN and Fox Sports, right?

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Yeah, I think there's a few things, and it's a, it's a great point that you bring up, you know, at the beginning of this, because I think the sad reality is All of these media deals, it's not really for the local markets. I think it's for the global markets. And that's the shift that sports have taken. So I know when I used to work in Major League Soccer with the Philadelphia Union, we had our local union anchored show that I was a part of that was pregame, halftime, postgame shows. It was on Psych. It was streamed on the local 680C and the local Philly stations. And They moved that, you know, with the emergence of especially Apple TV. Actually, we've gotten a lot of hate. People cannot stand it, which is ironic because it's one platform, but everything's behind a paywall. Everything is hard to access. And so we've seen all of these different leagues trying to figure out which media rights make most sense, how they can best reach their audiences. But they've gotten rid of the local stations. You look at NBC Sports was in every single market, and now we only really have NBC Sports Philly.

Chicago and I think LA are like the only ones, or the Bay Area are like the only ones that still exist. Local coverage of, you have your, I think about it in Philly with our NBC, we have our former Sixers player, Phillies player, Flyers player that's on for their respective teams. They're local, they connect with the community. People love the voice of the local broadcasters. And now we get a lot more of the national broadcasts where you are getting Mike Tirico for football or whoever it may be. And I think there's value with those, but I think that what we used to have was a blend where you could truly choose, do I want to hear the national broadcast or the local broadcast? And I think because they see so much money, it's not about the Denver market, for example.

Right.

They now recognize, okay, we can actually get Nikola Jokic and the Nuggets streams in Serbia and everywhere in Europe and everywhere all over the world that people can watch. So I think that really is the push that we're moving away from caring about the local fans. And I've seen this even on the ticket side. I know working with FIFA, there was a lot of discussion around how much people were priced out. The World Cup matches weren't really for the local fans the way that soccer is around the world, where Premier League, Champions League, the ticket prices are affordable for local fans. The World Cup was thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to get in the building for a lot of games. That was for hospitality suites. And listen, I got involved in it too with working with FIFA. I was at a game myself, but it wasn't really marketed for local fans. And I think that's the tough pill to swallow. They want local fans, like you said, Melissa, go to the sports bar, go tailgate, be on site, buy the tickets, buy the expensive drinks and food. And just to pay for like a hot dog costs you like $20, it feels like.

But the actual watching and streaming, like we're getting record-setting numbers. Every league continues to set historic numbers of streaming of every game for this platform is always the highest. This is the highest. Well, why is that? Because they're spinning globally. So I think they're recognizing the money's not just in the local backyards. It's how do you get these massive sponsorships, revenue deals, and then the expansion that you're having people all over the world that are now able to access. So yes, accessibility has grown, but it's also made a massive, massive challenge where it's more accessible, but it's also not accessible for everyone. It's a shift. And I think that's the hard part. I honestly will say I've been involved with a number since I do a ton of broadcasts with Peacock and NBC Sports. And the other shit that people don't realize is a lot of the broadcasters, like many times I'm broadcasting games and I'm miles away from the game. When you watch a football game, you watch wrestling, you watch soccer, MLS, like the broadcasters aren't even on site. So you want to talk about not caring about the local community? I have no idea what's actually the vibe on site.

I'm watching on TV like everyone else talking about the game. On TV. So even the shift from a broadcast perspective has happened where they're no longer putting us— we used to fly and it still happens. Of course, you'll still see NBA and NFL, though, you know, for NBC's game yesterday, they were on site. Maria Taylor was hosting. They're doing the pregame, the halftime, they're there. But a lot of times you're not always even getting the broadcasters in person. They are somewhere else with a nice, beautiful green screen behind or the screen behind. where you don't know where they are, but they're, they're not really on site. So a lot of shifts to maybe optimize and maximize, cutting down on some costs and some local community focus, but more global-focused initiatives.

Well, good, good, good for these teams. You know, that's responsible business. If you've got a, if you've got a brand or a company and you, you know, go back and going back to the pre-televised days, it was a local team, you know, and then, and then there was television and then all of a sudden you got to know other teams from other cities and And now there's this global initiative and growth. I get, you know, good for them, good for the money people. That's responsible business. When I was in Dublin recently, the NBA had just been there and there was NBA fever in Ireland, you know, great. But, you know, it shouldn't come at the expense of the local fans. You know, then you're trading one audience for another. You see companies do that too. They stray from the core and they find a new audience and they're the hot thing for a minute. The true believers go away, they don't have much longer. It's not a good model for a company.

I do think it's a business strategy, as Renee had mentioned, of moving it to a global place. And I think that, Erin, in your space in brand, branding and marketing, that's the new thing is that I feel like, Renee, right now we have celebrities in sports. Right. And so because it is a business like this offseason for the NBA, for example, like people just move teams, you know, you know, Jaylen Brown just left the Celtics and, you know, what happened there, you know, and I know that his city block had a, a going away party for him and all this kind of stuff. But like, there are Jaylen Brown fans, right? Like there are fans of LeBron James, LeBron James, you know, like there are those fans. And so like, I think that In a way, this new strategy of going global is also really helping to promote like your team. You can cheer for your team wherever you are, or you can cheer for your favorite player, whether it be Caitlin Clark, whoever it might be. And you have that opportunity, you know, Lionel Messi, you know, you can, you can cheer for whoever you want and you have access to that.

So I can kind of see how from a business perspective, it's a growth mechanism. But I think I think that, like, you know, Aaron, like, when you think about, like, what we used to know as, you know, your local team, that's who you would cheer for and you would watch religiously on Sunday afternoon, your NFL team. Now it's like, wow, like, do you— when you go into a sporting goods store, do you just see the local team's gear or do you see a LeBron James jersey? You know, jersey, right? You know, you're starting to see that it's really more also about the athlete as a celebrity versus just the localized team. So like, how do you market that? I mean, really, are you gonna start focusing more specifically on, on the player, do you think?

It's tougher because if you don't have accessibility, local market accessibility to your team in area, you're gonna start looking elsewhere and building preference for, for something else. You know, you might like start watching European soccer and that becomes your thing and go all, and yeah, how do you market to that consumer? consumer that all of a sudden switch behaviors after a lifetime of loyalty.

And it's interesting. So I'm, I'm Canadian, Renee. So it's, you know, we've always only had one or two and like, it's great that we have more selection, but we only have a few teams, right, in Canada, right? So specifically when you look at the NBA, again, when the Toronto Raptors won 2019, huge year for us. And we talk about the local. I remember literally the whole city shut down for, for coming. People came from, you know, 2 hours away by a train to do that. And I think, you know, that's important. And I love, again, with this globalization of fans, it's great. But the people at the, at, you know, on the, on the ground are people that are here. And I think, you know, if you were to see, you know, the stadiums empty, for example, it's, you know, and that's what happened also with the World Cup, right? It was tricky. It kind of like, you know, put some fans off. 'Cause it's like, you know, I know that it, the market for those tickets, you know, it was $1,000 to walk in the door. It's not necessarily for the everyday person, but to see empty spots for like a team that you're vying for, you know, I think there's a way that we can kind of bridge the gap because I, again, it does help because I feel like it's particularly with the Jays who are doing okay, fingers crossed, it's put us on a mar— you know, on a larger map, right?

We won the World Series back in '92, '93, and, you know, we were so close last year. We have a running chance at it again. And as a Canadian, where this is like our one team, it's huge. And so to see people in Japan rooting for the Jays, I love that. I love that there's that accessibility. But I wonder if there's a way we can fix kind of bridging the gap between, you know, keeping up with this global money driver that like is not going anywhere from a streaming like platform. Like it's very clear, Renee, with what you shared, like that's where the money is, that's where it's going. But how do we not lose, um, kind of those local fans at the same time because of all of the options? Like, could there be one spot? Could we, you know, get a, you know, hey, it's, you know, a really big game. You can get like a 2-day pass for, you know, this subscription service so that you can watch, um, you know, this specific game so that it becomes a little bit more accessible. Because I think adding tiers isn't a problem too.

Like, that's more money again to maybe someone might be interested. Like, I don't really know the Jays. team in Canada. Hey, let me try it out. Let me watch this game, you know, for 2 days and, you know, maybe I'll add on. Like, is there an opportunity to kind of do both?

I think that sports have moved away from community-focused audiences, fan bases, and more team-focused. So I know we talked about like someone like LeBron James, for example, and I've been a huge LeBron James fan all the way back to when he was in high school. And so whatever team LeBron's been on, that's been my team. But I'm also a Sixers fan. So of course now it works perfectly. But I think that a lot of times people are truly fans of players. Messi, Shohei Ohtani. Look at the Dodgers boom of Yoshinobu Yamamoto, Roki Sasaki, Shohei Ohtani, of now the amount of viewers and fans and people flying in to see Dodgers games. So I think there's been a bigger push to make players a household name versus just the teams. Whereas it used to be, you know, I'm an— I'm also an Eagles fan, for example. So I'm a generational Eagles fan. My parents were Eagles fans. I grew up watching Philadelphia Eagles games. You know, I was kind of born into it, and I think we're shifting away from that where it's like families and community-based and more focused on players. And I think a big inspiration behind that has been soccer, to be honest.

Like you look at the global game outside of America in terms of the Cristiano Ronaldos and Messi, of course, not as an MLS, but before Kylian Mbappé, and then you can go all the way back to Ronaldinho and Ronaldo and Pele and all these great players that over the years. Have had a massive, massive following globally. Thierry Henry. I mean, soccer players have been kings. Soccer is the sport across the world. And so to see how much people follow their players, that whatever Premier League team they're on, whatever national team they're playing with, they are supporting, they are following. I think that is actually where, to be honest, American sports are trying to keep up with that European soccer money because the amount of revenue, sale, ticket sales, jersey sales. Oh my goodness. People are rocking Premier League and Champions League and European League soccer jerseys all over. The kits are iconic. And I think that's what— again, money talks. I think that's what's been the inspiration for a lot of American leagues that now they're having. You know, you look at the NFL, the largest international slate of games. MLB continues expanding. NBA is getting bigger and bigger.

You know, we're seeing more of a push to have games in other countries, but then to your point with Toronto, to have teams in other countries. The WNBA having a team in Toronto is massive for the league. They've done tremendous with their numbers and the fandom and, oh, it's amazing to watch. So I think there is a shift away from like, no longer do you feel like you just have to appeal to Philly fans for Philly, LA fans for LA, Dallas fans for whoever. You are truly trying to build fandom based on your players. And that's why we have things like the Messi Cam Apple TV rolled out, or they've been doing, you know, a lot of players getting mic'd up and a lot of the features and storytelling around the actual games.

Right.

Is what draws people in. We saw yesterday with the Patriots-Seahawks game, they have a sit-down with Drake Maye and AJ Brown before the game with Maria Taylor. We're getting insight into who they are. They're connecting the dots. And I do like this piece of more storytelling around the players, their journeys, their experiences. and understanding, wait a minute, if someone is a fan of Shohei Ohtani, now regardless what team he's on, we've got fans. Regardless if his team is winning or losing, we've got fans. We've got people that will travel all over the world to see their favorite player just because they want to be in the same building. So that shift, I think, is a good thing because it is expanding the reach for players. It's giving them more endorsements and sneaker deals. I mean, on the women's side especially, that's been a big boom. That is why we have this 11-year media deal for the WNBA and NWSL and women's soccer now have players making over $1 million. It is the player recognition. People know Trinity Rodman, they know A'ja Wilson, they know all the different players by name more than even what their teams are doing.

Caitlin Clark, especially, she's been a big boon for this. So I don't think it's a bad thing. I think that you have to balance it. You can't just completely throw away the local communities. local connection because that does matter. But I do think it's good that players have the ability to impact and reach such a bigger audience that you now have people that are like, I like the WNBA, not because of this team, I have a favorite player. I'm a big fan of Paige Bueckers, or I'm a big fan of Angel Reese, or whoever it may be. So again, it's all about balancing. I don't think there should be a full swing one way or the other, but I do think we're moving to a point that even international, like a lot of the soccer leagues have been having conversations about expanding to do international games in the United States. So it's swinging back the other way too, that they're like, wait a minute, NFL, NBA, they're onto something. Now the Premier League and La Liga and La Bundesliga and all these different soccer leagues are trying to have these marquee exhibition games in the United States.

So it's not just here across the world, everyone's trying to spin on the media deals, the access, The globalization of sports because money, fandom, and they, they recognize the opportunities that are there.

What I would love—

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Love to see, and I'm right now on NFL.com. Is if I have a team that I want to follow, for example, the Denver Broncos or Philadelphia Eagles, whoever it might be, make it easy for me to know what station or what streaming service is that game on. Like, it just tells me the schedule and says kickoff is at 5:15 Mountain Time. I'm like, yeah, but like, where am I going to watch that? So I do think there's ways that the, you know, like, you know, you were talking about, you know, like maybe like even like one login, right? Like if you, if it's a specific league, for example, if it's MLS, if it's, if it's, you know, WNBA, if it's NBA, if it's NFL, like if you could log in and set up your account and say, these are my favorites and that's your login. And then you could see how you were going to, how to view it. You would be like, okay, I'm blacked out of that one. I got to go find a bar, a sports bar, or, oh, I don't, you know, I have Prime, but I don't have Netflix.

Right?

Like, at least you would know. And like, to your point, Chino, do they have day passes where you could just watch the game?

Right?

Like, some, some of them do that, but it would be really a lot easier for us to be able to follow a team. But I do agree with you, Renee. I think that the celebrity of athletes is really important. And I think the other thing is it actually matches the business of sports today. Right. Because you don't have players usually that stay with a team their entire career.

Right.

Like all these football players moving around, all these NBA players, everybody's moving, you know, and you're like, oh, I just got the jersey for her. And it's, you know, she was here in Indiana. Oh, now she's in Las Vegas.

Okay.

Right. You know, and but it's really because, hey, I want to follow this person. Right. And so I do. I do think it's an important thing to note that that is, I feel like kind of a shift from a generation ago where it was really about your, as Erin was saying, your local community, your local team. Like you would go, you, you know, you could drive down to training camp and see them and get autographs. And again, also what you said about like local broadcasters, you know, Altitude just did that here in Denver. They let go some of the local guys and brought in an NBA broadcaster. He's, ex-player, but not with the Nuggets like what we had, you know? So it was, it was kind of sad, you know, we were like, oh, bummer, you know? But at the same time understood, you know, it's not that he's, I'm gonna give him best chance, he's not gonna be bad, but he took the place of somebody who used to be a, a Nuggets player.

It's interesting too. I love, again, you know, I think of like Erling Haaland, you know, on the Marina Márquez on the Toronto Tempo, you know, talking about following players because they move, they, you know, these players Yeah. I wonder, and I love this idea, Melissa, of, you know, some schedule, right? Like, I know even for the Jays, like, we get a thing of, okay, when's a home game? When's this? If we had everything like, okay, you can watch this on ESPN, actually today's the Apple Day. I wonder if it gets to a point too where, hey, and I know Apple TV did this in Prime a little bit for specific, like, you know, for Messi, you know, if we get so granular where it's like, okay, you know what? If you love Erling Haaland, like here's, you know, all of his games. And I wonder if there can be like a subscription where, and Renee, you, you know, you've worked at multiple different, you know, sports entertainment places. So you would know better than I how open they are to kind of having that communication. But, you know, whether it's a team or a player, if I say, hey, take my money, I'm happy to give you like $400 at the start of the year to say, I wanna follow this person.

I don't want any blackout. Maybe there's a blackout, maybe one or two, fine. Um, but if you can just give it to me on whatever platform, so whether that means like you get that day pass for this one game, but it's kind of like a one-stop shop, you know, thing. And, you know, every, every broadcaster, every, every network, you know, gets their, their tail end. Do you think that's even feasible? Like, would they all talk to each other to say, okay, you can take a piece of this pie, or will it always, from your experience, be, you know, this network is fighting for kind of the lion's share of the rights.

When you look at the NFL, they've gotten that right. That's been something that's been a strong asset for the league that, you know, you're going to get Thursday night on Prime, you're going to get Sunday, that's regular Fox, you're going to get your Sunday night, that's NBC. You know, Mondays can be ESPN. And then they now— but the difference with them is they're adding Wednesday games and Friday games and Saturday games. And Netflix has been in the mix for some of those like marquee one-off events. So I think for NFL, typically people know where to watch an NFL game and that's because they're consistent. That's because you know you've got the time slots. It's 1 o'clock, 4:45, 8 o'clock. You've got your days, you know exactly when and where to watch. And I think the hard part is sports like baseball. Baseball is pretty locked in too, actually, to be honest. The NBA, the WNBA, especially since the WNBA is like ION, ESPN, very And then NWSL is the same way. It's hard because they play so much more. So you don't always have, in the course of a 7-day week, it's not always the same days of the week, the same time, the same places.

So it's hard to structure it. Whereas football, every team's playing once a week. You can easily structure who plays in which windows. And I think that's what makes football the— it's like the supply and demand. You've got primetime games. You know you got to watch for that primetime game. If you miss it, you miss it. And so I think that it's not as feasible for the other leagues just because it's just so widespread. But I think that is where we are shifting for WNBA, NBA, leagues like that where they have maybe the, the main spot. So NBC, for example, with their 11-year deal for the NBA, you're catching the bulk of the games on NBC. Then there's the occasional, again, one-offs that might be ESPN has a game, things like that. So I think that's kind of the direction it's moving. You have the main media rights holder, and then you have the others that get marquee games. They have to fight for playoff games, maybe things like that. So honestly, I don't think that it would get to a point where they are going to actively say like, hey fans, here's where you can watch.

Here's a list. Here's anything like that because that actually takes away from their advertising. You look at what NBC's been doing around the Wednesday night opener, what Netflix has been doing around. I mean, I remember their promotional. Advertisements leading up to MLB All-Star, and they've been doing it again for Australia for the NFL game. That's advertising. That's part of the package. That's part of sponsorships that now you have big name player on this commercial reminding people to go watch here. So can they simplify it? They should. I know they do have it built into the app where you can go in and see this game's coming up tonight at what time and who's playing, but they don't have one database of like, here's where every game is. To your point, Melissa, if you go on any of the league's websites, it just says the kickoff time, where it's at, who's playing. You don't typically get where you can watch and which apps you can watch where.

Yeah.

But I think that's part of the package, to be honest. They don't want to— I'm not saying they want to make it difficult for people, but it gives them another layer of advertising and revenue to be able to now put together commercials and promotional materials that they build with their celebrities and their fans that they're going to connect with to share When to watch, where to watch, that if you miss a commercial, you miss it. But yeah, I don't know. It's tricky. It's a really tricky balance. I think that I remember with baseball, with YouTube TV, people were like, I don't even know how to use YouTube TV. That's the other piece. Like, not everybody even has access and knows how to log in and where to go to on your phone. I mean, it's not even just physically where to watch. It's physically how do I actually click this button instead of me having a remote that I click the remote and turn on the TV? How do I actually go through and find it on my phone or my computer or connect the app to your TV? So now we have smart TVs.

I mean, this is a whole can of worms that we could seriously go down because I say if only there was one space, one place that you can turn on your TV and everything would live. Oh yeah, there was cable. So I do think that we're essentially moving back to cable in a sense that people are trying to bundle packages and apps and make it easier that you can get everything in one spot. That's what's gonna have to change.

And on the subscription, Talking specific on the subscription side, because I think another opportunity for revenue, right, is like, okay, so, you know, NBC holds the rights for, you know, whatever game or, or kind of league. But, you know, if it's the one-off that goes to Netflix, can they say, okay, we have the full rights, but you know what, I'm gonna take a cut of that so that, you know, people have this? Because right now it's, you have, as a, as a fan, you have to get all of these many subscriptions and pay, you know, X amount of time where it's like, if I can say, hey, I really want to watch, you know, the Toronto Tempo the entire season. I don't want any blackouts. I'm happy to pay for this. Where you can say, you know, NBC, take all of my money, but take a cut from Netflix. Right? So it's like this, maybe charging an upcharge for that. You know what I mean?

Oh, yeah. They wouldn't do that.

They'll never do that. Okay. That's what I was wondering.

They wouldn't be able to do that because— and there's a few reasons. Yeah. So for one, every network has their own set of statutes. So whoever's doing the NBC, I mean, you guys recognize this, whoever's done the NBC broadcast, it's a whole different crew than the ESPN broadcast, which is a whole different crew than, you know, Netflix and so on and so forth. So Elle Duncan's working with Netflix. She's not working with the ESPN broadcast. So if you're watching the Toronto Tempo on NBC Sports one day and it's on ION the next day, it's a whole different broadcast crew for ION. They're not going to cross over because that actually directly impacts their pocket. That's a competitor. They can't You can't stream like that. You're not going to— they're not going to stream an NBC game that you have access to on like Netflix, for example, because it's a whole different staff. It's a whole different company. It's a whole different— honestly, everything is different about the format, the way they shoot it, the people that are shooting it. And then so the networks are not going to— it takes away from the media rights and the value of media rights if you're sharing.

Not so much sharing that like it's not NBC is, you know, putting out like the other network. It's more you know, you're paying for, you're paying for both essentially, right? Because right now we have to buy every single one. But I wonder if it's like, okay, if, you know, ESPN did like a 2-day pass that you would have to buy and purchase, you know, on top of your NBC, would, you know, is there a hypothetical world where we say, okay, if you want to watch this one team, you know, you're going to have to pay for all of these services, but we can bundle the deal so that whoever owns like the main rights, Yes, you'll be able— like, you'll still have to download it. You're still paying these people, but we're gonna charge you a margin so that it, it comes for us. Like, that's kind of like the, the trade-off. So it's another revenue for them. You know what I mean? From a subscription kind of fee perspective.

See, that's where I think that like the team should do that, right?

Yeah.

So like if I wanna watch the, you know, the Denver Nuggets and it's not all gonna be on Altitude, some of it's gonna be on NBA Sports, it's gonna be on ESPN, whatever it might be. I like what you're— where you're going, where I just have to log in to the Denver Nuggets page and I say, I'm gonna, I wanna pay for the season, 2026, 2027 season, and I'll pay for the full season. And that's, I'm making this up, $300. And it's gonna include all the games, no blackouts. I just come, come here and you have a link to YouTube TV or wherever I need to go and it'll, it'll have the game on. That would be ideal because I think, you know, and then that's where you're saying like, then you give YouTube TV theirs, you give Netflix theirs, you give ESPN theirs, and you're still paying for all of them. But it's just like, it's not as confusing. I do think that would be great for the fans. But I, again, like, I don't know that, like, to Renee's point, like, there's so much going on behind the scenes that I don't know if they could actually do that.

do that. I also think that, like, you know, the sports leagues could learn from the streaming services too, right? Like, they've been, you know, like Netflix, Prime Video, Apple TV, they've been doing this for a while, Paramount+, whoever. And I feel like they could also share how they're, you know, how they're looking at revenue, how they're looking at subscriptions, how do they keep people coming back? Like, you know, when you go to Netflix, It's like, can you want to continue here? Do you want to— like, you just watched quarterbacks. Do you want to watch this show now? Right. You know, starting 5, like, that's what they say to me.

Right.

You know, and I'm like, well, I don't know.

Okay.

There's something there. It's to, to, you know, to your point when you're saying, do you want— you picked your— you favorited a player. And so do you want every— all the teams he's played? Right. Or she's played? I think that's an interesting concept too, is like learning on the other side from the streaming services, because I think that there's something there that they could share too. But I, again, the fan experience is just really difficult, and it is about the money. And so we just have to be realistic that there's, you know, it's not going back to you turn it on your local channel, NBC channel, and you get to watch your team every weekend. So that's not going to happen.

Yeah, I think the exclusivity clauses of the media deals is why we wouldn't get to that point. Ideally, I would love that too, Chino. I think it's a great idea that you like have access to your team, your player, you see everything. But the whole change behind it and the whole fine print within all of these 11-year deals, 7-year deals for this league, you know, whatever it may be, league to league, is the exclusivity, is the fact that you have to physically log into Netflix. And when you log into Netflix, you're not just going there to see the game. You're now getting the advertising. You're getting the other, the other stuff that they're like, oh, wait a minute, now maybe Hopefully they can keep people in Netflix. They can keep people with NBC. NBC Sports has all their NBC Sports commercials that they're filtering through. Even things like Roku and all these other components that like do show the games, but it's layered in the actual media rights holders' commercials and packages and pieces. So like NBC Sports on Roku has NBC Sports commercials. You're not even getting anything Roku related. So the exclusivity is not just about, are you watching the game in this moment?

I think the exclusivity is a huge part of that is driving traffic to your channels. And now when you're there, you're also, you see the crossover like Disney does so much with ESPN, with ABC, where we get the crossover of like ABC News is promoting ESPN, which is promoting and doing stuff with events with Disney. Same thing with Netflix. When you have the Bridgerton commercials and they're like, Like talking about NFL stuff. Like they've been crossing over with even like their movies and shows helping to promote the games and vice versa. So I think that is why the exclusivity of like these leagues. Oh, YouTube did it. They were, it was annoying with it because they did more streamers, but YouTube did it as well. They had all these commercials and ads and it was like streamers that were talking about the games and they even had them involved in the games as broadcasters. Like every network is learning because they are paying attention to the numbers. They are getting a lot To all of our points of what we're talking about with the exclusivity and the access, the main reason why they do want you going to their app is because they do want to get a sense of habits of their audience demographics, times they're tuning in, how long they're tuning in for, which is why we're getting a change.

And you see the evolution of Amazon Prime, for example, of where Prime started years ago with their Thursday night games to now it's a whole different production. So they've been paying attention through the the data, the analytics, the feedback of the demographics and the audience. Figure out how do we best piece together all of our various programming. You go on amazon.com, at the top is usually an Amazon Prime advertisement of a banner promoting the game with a countdown to the game. So now I'm shopping on Amazon, but also getting at the top very subliminally, you don't even notice it a lot of times, a countdown of the games coming up in, you know, X amount of hours. So the exclusivity with their traffic is it's bigger than sports. It's entertainment, it's news, it's movies, it's TV. It's how do you drive traffic back to your channels, which is why they don't really care about the ease of access. It's for them, all business, all marketing, all chances to promote the great things like Netflix, for example, promoting all things Netflix. Like, why do we see Elle Duncan doing— she's involved with some shows that are not even sports shows.

Why? It's the crossover. So that is that intersection of sports, culture, business, entertainment. And that is why media rights have drastically changed. They're recognizing it's bigger than just you're watching a game. They recognize the whole ecosystem that they're building to keep people coming back.

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We're gonna fix it. The good thing about our show is we don't have to spend a It would take to execute. We can make the recommendation and then the powers that be can do what they will. But okay, here's what we're— here's what I'm hearing. Sports is such a communal thing and they've driven people away from the community side of things. Now, I love you can go to a sports bar and, you know, go shoulder to shoulder with the local fans and if you happen to find out where the game's playing, great. But that's, you know, that's a lot of work to expect for a fan to do in every single game depending on what sport and how long the seasons are and that type of thing. But they've driven it from a communal experience, especially if you have to go chasing games. Now, I understand why they're doing it. There's the data side of things. So if you turn it from a game that I'm sharing in my living room with my neighbors to a personal one-on-one ad-driven experience where you know my data, you know my watchability, you know my repeat rates, personally down to me, then you can serve me up specific advertising.

You can cross-recommend other programming. You can upsell all those things. So I understand the data capture side of things. that's a very powerful part of the equation. We're going to incentivize that. We're not going to throw that out. But I'm going to go with put some portal, like we all complain about cable. Why are we footing the bill for channels we don't watch and trim the fat and all that stuff? And then it got very, very decentralized. We're going to put it back to the teams. Every team is going to have a subscription pass. They're going to pre-negotiate the rates with all these different streamers and carriers and all That's their problem to figure out. And they're going to make it good for their fans. So even a little bit better than going after 7 different services on their own or however many there are, give us a rate that we can handle as a fan of that, that at least my team and you as a team, you have some accountability to do good for your fans, especially your local fans and your international growing fan base. So one pass, one login, what there's going to be, there's going to be a player in the middle of that page brought to you by whoever that's— you're going to have to log into all these services, we can't get around that.

But when I'm on a Netflix-driven game, I'm going to get Netflix advertising and programming all over that. There's no way I'm not going to know that's a Netflix game. I'm going to get enticements to come back to other Netflix shows and things like that. So it's a high It's gonna be, you know, in my game portal, I can of course go straight to Netflix and watch it. If it's an ESPN game, same deal. They get the lion's share of the visibility on that experience. But I know I could, at least I could always go to my team of choice and go look at the portal player in the middle of their screen And that's where my game's going to be. Base level. Then they can offer me, what else are you interested in? I'm also interested in European soccer.

Great.

Here's some upsells. You want to watch this game? You know, I'm in. I like the experience. So we're going to, but we're using our team as the home base. Pick a team, pick your favorite and build out from there and get rid of the excess complexity there. Yes, there's a lot of untangling. Are they going to talk to each other? I don't know. But if they do, everyone wins somehow. And you're still getting, oh, the individual data capture. So even if you're watching games communally, I know they do this, but give everyone who's in that room a reason to log in also, uh, to volunteer that they're watching the game, to get served up personal ads, you know, points programs or whatever it takes. I know they have things like that, but make sure that, you know, it's not just the person who's hosting the, the It's every person there is logging in for a specific reason. I like it. Uh, Chino, what do you think? Did we fix it?

I think, you know, they're doing a really good job. They know what they're doing. They're making billions, and I don't think that's ever going anywhere. Renee, you made that very clear. I like this idea, and I think, you know what, to make it a little less accessible, even though that's not what we're trying to do— and yes, we usually care about the fan experience— why not have like a super fan day where you give out like, you know, 1,000 passes. So it kind of drives people to this, you know, again, those super fans, not bots. You gotta figure that out, kind of like a Ticketmaster. You know, you're waiting for your Coachella tickets, do one for this, like, you know, you know, we only give out 1,000 of these passes that you can do everything else. And, you know, you have to maybe pay to even get into the pre-line. Just again, to pull up the numbers there, kind of like that. But I don't think we're ever getting away from multiple streaming services. It's a money-driving business, as Renee said. I think driving people and maybe even that intersectional cross-collaboration between some, if you already have the rights for one team, maybe that's an option.

Renee will know better than all of us. So I think it was not necessarily a problem for them to fix, but for the fans, we did our best. And so I think we got a pseudo-fix. This is a pseudo.

All right. All right, I'll take a pseudo. Melissa, did we fix it?

Yeah, because I do feel like, to our points, this is not a business strategy that we're gonna change. The globalization of sports is really important to all of the teams and all of the leagues. So I'm 100% for that. I think what we're trying to do is improve the fan experience. And I think that what we've shared with the one account that already knows You get to sign up for your preferences and it makes it easy. And it's not saying I don't want to pay. It's saying that I want to make it easier. That's what most customer experience is about, making it easy, making it personalized, making it responsive. I do think that's, that's a win. I also think Renee brought something up. We want to make sure that we're tracking the data and the metrics that actually predicts churn and things like that so Like, how does this ease in fan experience help the streamers, right? Like, so at the end of the season, do you have a special, you know, subscription rate? Hey, do you want to watch Bridgerton? Netflix, we're going to give you the football fan, you know, coupon code. And so instead of being $29.99 a month, it's going to only be $20 a month or whatever it is.

So you can see kind of how is this developing into longevity and growth and strategy for the streaming side of it and using that data. And like I said, using what those streaming services have already done a really good job of. Like Renee, you mentioned Prime Video, like making sure that they were like, oh, we sucked. Like I remember the first game, we were like, what's going on? I think it's like, is this even a thing? It's like bad Wi-Fi? Like, what's going on? And so I think that they've made updated changes. And so again, looking at the data and really kind of crafting that experience for the fan in great ways. And I think one of the things, Erin, that you mentioned that, you know, you were kind of like, I'm kind of bummed about like the fan experience and the community. Like really sitting there and thinking, okay, how do the teams, like, how do they engage with the fans?

Yeah.

revisit how they're actively involved in the community and how can they use some of the money from these streaming services to make a fan experience. So it would be cool, right, to have, you know, a crossover, if you want to say, you know, between a Prime Video show and, you know, or a Paramount+ show. You could have a Taylor Sheridan show, Lioness, and you could have your team, right? Your soccer team or whatever it might be. And it might be a fan experience in the city or in the region that would, right, you know, kind of help to bring people together. And maybe it would be even more, you know, more purposeful. It could be something very intentional and say, hey, you know, Netflix and the Denver Broncos are hosting a day at Children's Hospital or whatever it might be. So I do think that there are ways to It, you know, encourage community, encourage fan experience, and not go away from the globalization of sports.

I like that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's all about the local fan base. You just have to, that's the core. They're always, you know, good, good or good, fair weather, bad weather. You want 'em there cuz you can, you can be a big, you can have a giant hit in another country. And if your local team, your local market doesn't know who you are, That's a problem. Renee, this is our version of fantasy sports where we're gonna go, we're going back to the cable model. We're consolidating everything. My team has my back and my team is going to be the center spoke, the hub for everything that I care about. And I'm gonna pay my team under, you know, it looks like, looks and feels like my team. And from that point, from there, I can see every subscription I want. I get offers for new things, but But it's all associated with my team of choice. If we could pull that off, did we fix it?

No, I think that actually raises different problems. So I don't— I think it's a loaded question because who says things need to be fixed in that sense? Like, I think if we as fans look at it, we feel like it's not an ideal situation. But I know I'm frustrated with the fact that I have to go on Disney+ versus HBO Max versus Starz. It's not even just game games. Streaming is where we're at. Between social media and streaming, that is where we are at in this day and age. And I think for sports, they're recognizing if I can get— they're not targeting even our respective demographics. They're trying to go younger. They're trying to go, you know, those college-age young adults that are constantly on social media talking about it, sharing it. You know, I know people that do not watch games but simply are sharing YouTube clips from games. and articles and clips from First Take or whatever show. So I think if we were to focus it and have it be hyperfocused where you only have access to your team and your favorite players, that takes away from what they're hoping to build through the primetime model.

That used to be a case where you only really turned on your TV to watch your team because you only had access to them once a week or whatever it may have been. Whereas now you have access to stumble onto, oh, what's SGA and the Thunder all about? Or who is Drake Maye and the Patriots? What's the storyline? there. So I think to be honest, they want to expand. They don't want you— you might have a favorite player, a favorite team, but they don't want you to exclusively be watching them. They want you to have access to learn about Erling Haaland and Kylian Mbappé and whoever else, Mo Salah. So I do feel like if I could think of what could change, I actually like the fact they're trying to bring in— like, I look at the last year for NBA and NFL, specifically NBC. It's Tracy McGrady, Michael Jordan, Mike Tomlin made his debut. Like, they're bringing in former coaches, former players, because those names, they don't just hit one community, they reach the whole world. You know, you see Vince Carter and Tracy McGrady, cousins that we saw play in the NBA. And whether you were a Toronto Raptors fan or Orlando Magic fan or somewhere in between, you were excited to see them now talking with Carmelo Anthony and Maria Taylor.

Like, that's the growth of beyond just one community reaching so many different people. But I would love to see more in person. I think that we are growing to a model in general in life, period. Where everything is virtual, everything is creating these streaming apps and social media spaces of easily being able to share stuff and talk virtually. But can we have a Netflix Day where it's, you know, let's say it was the MLB All-Star. I would've loved to see more that, and I saw them on site because I was at the game in Philly. But can you now do something where we have a big Netflix pop-up and it's like you're interacting with people, like creating more of that community experience, I think, is what's missing. Because I think from the global virtual standpoint, we all were looking forward to seeing what Michael Jordan and Mike Tirico's conversation was going to be like last year. And it was, it was disappointing. Can we get more of that? So I do think that's the direction that we're going to see things start to go, where I would like to see things go, that I would fix more in-person, more community-based in the sense of how do we connect on-site that you get that ESPN College GameDay vibe.

I like that a lot. Yeah. And I'm not saying restrict access to my team. I'm just saying use that as the jump— the jumping off point. Guarantee me access to my team and then you have me.

What else?

What else do you want me to watch? I'll watch it. But I will always vote for community-driven, you know, experiences, getting, getting people together, bringing sports into, you know, making— making sure that sports remain a communal experience because That's what they are. That's what they should be. All right, well, that's gonna do it for this action-packed episode of We Fixed It, You're Welcome. We don't wanna go into overtime, but before we go, I'd like to thank Melissa Chino and especially Renee Washington for lending her expertise. Renee, this would not have been the same without you. Before we go, please let everyone know how to keep up with what you're doing, and please tell me it's not that complicated.

Yes, thank you so much for having me. This has been so much fun just to have a chance to deep dive and talk through some different ideas And it's been so great speaking with all 3 of you, Erin, Melissa, and Chenoa. I've appreciated it. If anybody wants to continue following me, I'm very simple to find. I'm on social media @reneepwashington. So Instagram, TikTok, or X, wherever. And then my X is @reneepwash, but everything else is @reneepwashington, or my website, reneepwashington.com. And I'm thrilled that I get a chance to be involved in so many different sports, whether it's curling or basketball or soccer, whatever it may be. So thrilled that I had a chance to take some time to chat with you guys as well.

Thanks, Renee. And we're going to watch for you too. Thanks to you, to our listeners, our Fixaholics. I hope you liked our fixes today. But if you want to armchair quarterback it yourself and you think you have a better one, we want to hear from you. Send us an email, myfix@wefixeditpod.com. That's myfix@wefixeditpod.com. Whatever team you're rooting for, we hope they win. And we will see you next time.

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