Transcript of Can Companies Predict the Future?

Welcome to We Fixed It. You're welcome.

The show where we take over companies, you come along for the ride, and we try to put them back better than we found them. Hey everyone, this is Aaron. I am super excited for today's episode. Let's start with a quick story. A long time ago, I was brought in to work on an automotive dashboard where, get this, you could access the internet in your car. from a touchscreen infotainment system. Today, we all have those. Back then, it was a proof of concept, but the car company liked what they saw. They invested heavily, and ultimately, it worked out pretty well. That's what we're talking about today— companies that aren't limited by what's possible. They're working toward future outcomes that may take years, if not decades, to prove out. Of course, there are winners and losers. Some companies spend millions, if not billions, chasing something that never had a chance. So how do companies predict the future? What's the secret to staying grounded in reality while also taking big swings that pay off eventually? Because the wrong move could be catastrophic. That's what we're here to fix. And you know, we're gonna need some help. Joining Melissa and me today is Allan Nija.

Allan is the founder and CEO of Sunman Engineering, where he's been for over 35 years. He's done a ton of product development and prototyping across automotive, aerospace, robotics, telecom, and more. He's also a serial entrepreneur and a professor at San Jose State University, and I think he might understand the future better than any of us. Alan, welcome to our show and tell us a little bit more about you.

Hi, Eran. Hi, Melissa. Thank you for having me on your show. I appreciate that. Yes, my name is Alan Nejjar. My background is aerospace mechanical engineering. We have worked with small companies, many startups. We have worked with midsize companies. We have worked with a lot of larger companies like IBM, Sony, Samsung, Apple. We've been doing over— to date, I think we have 1,670-some projects such as—

Wow.

Done.

Wow.

It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work.

That's a lot of work. That's a lot.

I've been here every day last 35 years, trust me. And even when I'm on vacation, I'm still working.

Well, thanks, Alan. We're really happy to have you here. You're going to be instrumental to our conversation. Melissa, companies are profit-driven. They want sales this quarter, not eventually. So why invest so heavily in the future?

So here's the thing about the future. The future, everybody wants to bet on it, but almost nobody wants to actually pay for it. So there's a stat that really stopped me cold while I was prepping for this. A 2024 study from Ernst& Young looked at advanced manufacturing companies, the ones building genuinely new stuff, and found that only 12% of them successfully commercialized their innovations at scale, 12%. And here's the kicker. 95% of the patents these companies filed never generate a single dollar of revenue ever. So picture you're in a boardroom, you're at a company, and someone pitches a technology that might be viable in 5 years or 10 or 20. The math is not exactly in your favor. As we like to say, the math is not mapping. And yet some of the biggest companies on the planet keep doing it anyway. Amazon spent almost $80 billion on capital expenditures last year, most of it on AI infrastructure that isn't paying for itself yet. But Nvidia keeps plowing money back into R&D while it's already winning. So there's research out this year published in Management Science showing something kind of wild. The more pressure a public company feels from quarterly earning calls, the less ambitious its innovation gets.

Less bold, less wild, less future forward. So, which is such an tension, right? Because companies willing to look a little out there for a few years, the Amazons, the NVIDIAs, the early Teslas, those are often the ones that end up owning the future. But for every one of those, there's a graveyard of companies that bet big, waited, and it never came to fruition. So here's the question I think every leader quietly wrestles with. How do you know if you're building the next iPhone or the next Segway? Is there actually a way to predict where the puck is going, or is it just conviction, timing, luck, and being willing to be wrong in public a few times before you're actually right? And honestly, I can't think of a better person to help us answer that than someone like Alan, who spent his entire career building these types of things before the world was ready for him. So let's get into it.

Yeah, Alan, you've, uh, I'd say you've looked into the future several times and You know, you've probably seen your share of, I'd say, a bunch of winners, but there's gotta be some cautionary tales in there too. Can you tell us just a story, one of your favorite things that you've been involved with?

I have this device here. So we built this back in 2005, and I mean, today they say, okay, it's a tablet. There were no tablets, there were no iPhone, there were no nothing. You know, for big companies, you know, that's part of their growth.

It's true. I, yeah, I said at the beginning, some companies have the wrong idea and they chase the wrong idea, but some companies have the right idea and maybe they're years or decades too early and it's just not feasible. So their, their instincts are all right, but someone else will come along later and pick up the pieces and then own that market.

As a large company, you have a responsibility. to your shareholders and to your customers. And so growth at 10% is a lot. To your point, Alan, that's a lot. And so to be able to take monies and actual monies and time and resources and invest those in innovation just sometimes doesn't seem like the right rhythm to go for. Like, that doesn't seem like the right, you know, Aaron, you know this more than I do, but the right go-to-market strategy to actually get something, you know, get growth in revenue. So I do think that like as you get larger and more successful as a company, even though you might have more means, you also have more pressures on you. So then that makes it seem like, okay, gosh, how can we actually do this? And I know that I have been at some larger companies that have had what we would call innovation labs where they would actually set aside a group of people, engineers, product people, UX people, customer experience folks to just work on those types of things. And they would be given kind of, you know, a room by themselves. They get to do whatever they would like to do and then be able to kind of present that.

And to me, that's really great way to kind of also make sure that your company is always looking to the future because things are always changing. You don't want to discourage moonshot ideas. You don't want to discourage people from really trying something kind of outlandish, right? And if you use KPIs that are for a more structured and conservative company environment, you're kind of limiting, you're self-limiting yourself, you know, you're self-limiting the team.

You, you're right on. That's exactly what we had to do. You know, you always think about the coolest stuff, what you can do, what's the next, and so on, right? From business point of view, that's totally opposite way. You've got to see what's, what's out there, what's needed, how to get there, and all that, right?

Just to push back, but if you have— let's say you come from a company with a culture of innovation, and that's, that's internal and inherent to what your company does, then you're creating the right conditions for those moonshots or someone coming up with that bold idea. But what if your company's just a company? You know, and you have your profit-driven, you've got shareholders, you've got investors, everyone's kind of skittish. I'm not saying do no harm, but consumers were trained on appreciation for incremental innovation. So version 3 comes out, then version 4 comes out and we buy version 4 and, you know, we're all, we're all reasonably happy. You know, we know that the deal and how it works. Why would a company like that listen to someone that says, hey boss, You know, I've thought of this thing that is going to take years to pay off and it may cost the company a lot and it may fail. What's the motivation for that company to disrupt what's, what's practically working?

I don't think there is necessarily a huge motivation, Aaron. I think that like that would be to me, it would be maybe a conflict in, you know, purpose for whoever is introducing those types of innovations versus the company that they're at. And I've been at companies that are 100-year-old Fortune 50 companies that that's not their cup of tea. They've said that. And I think as long as you're self-aware enough to just say it and be it, I think that's okay. And to me, I think it's really important that companies who want to be in that innovative space have that bandwidth and have the wherewithal and knowledge of how to organizationally and build that culture around around that and, and really read those operational signals, really understand what future consumers might be looking for. But we still need the basic foundations of, of, you know, a lot of thousands of companies that are out there and businesses that are out there. Um, I think that what I've also seen which has worked is there's a company I used to work for that Actually built out their innovation in a separate company.

Support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become the best in the neighborhood. Whether you're growing your business or just trying to keep up with it, Square knows what you need. You can take payments, online orders, manage your inventory, staff, and more all in one place. That means that when you're with a customer, you're actually with that customer, and they can tell you've got things under control. For one, you're focused and not running around like crazy. That's because the whole thing's designed to be easy to use. The last time I stopped by a cafe where I saw the Square logo, I was like, yeah, they get it. I knew my experience would be a great one, and it was. It was good coffee too. And Square now offers 3 plans so you can pick the tools you need. So what are you doing about your business? Well, let's help you out. Square's offering our listeners up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at square.com/go/wefixedit.

Again, S-Q-U-A-R-E.

Go to airtable.com/wefixedit and set up your business the way it works for you. Here's something I've done for work that I'll never volunteer for again: writing a step-by-step process document. It's tedious, it's time-consuming, and after all that effort, it just kind of sits there. Which is why I really like what today's sponsor Scribe has built for companies. Scribe is a workflow AI platform trusted by 94% of the Fortune 500, And I've had a chance to see it in action. Instead of stopping what you're doing to document a process, Scribe captures the process as you work, including clicks, steps, and screenshots, and automatically turns it into a clear step-by-step guide that's ready to review and share. Scribe's AI can even look at that workflow and suggest where steps could be simplified or automated. And with the Guide Me feature, anyone you choose can follow that same process with real-time on-screen instructions showing them exactly where to click. And don't worry, it can automatically redact sensitive information like names, emails, and account numbers so you can share with confidence. Look, don't just document your process. Why not find ways to make it better? To see what Scribe could look like for your organization, head to scribe.how/fixedit and mention We Fixed It for your first month of Scribe Capture free on select plans.

That's scribe.how/fixedit.

No, we, you know, like Sunman Engineering has 2 arms, right?

Mm-hmm.

One arm is that we provide engineering and product development engineering services to other companies or, or, you know, government agencies or whatever. And the other arm, we develop technologies in, in-house and we utilize those technologies for future clients, right? So as you know, so we have to do this, otherwise you know, in 5 years from now, we don't have much to offer as far as how we can help the other companies because now we already built some technology upfront that we can utilize it, you know, for next few years. So yeah, that's fairly normal for most of companies, but it's, as you said, you know, for us, we use the cash flow here and we invested into these technologies, and then eventually we utilize this technology to, you know, for more, more business.

What about a case like, all right, like NBC and Peacock where the streaming services had already proved out the model was working elsewhere, but they launched 6 years ago and they just hit their first profitable quarter. So you could say, you know, yes, they saw trends were changing, consumer behavior was changing. They had a library of content that needed to go somewhere, but they, you know, there was an established template for it. Why, what was the price of entry there? What do you think that just, you know, they needed to play catch up? It's still innovation because we're still kind of doing that conversion to streaming first, but 6 years to profitability on a proven model. You know, do you see that happening across industries too when there's already been a disruption?

You know, when you look into something 5 years down the road, obviously you don't get the revenues. for a few years, that's for sure. So that's not unusual. And again, for big companies, they can handle that, they can afford that, you know, they're big enough to take that loss upfront and then back end they can make them, you know, make it back. For smaller companies, you know, it's more difficult. You know, they don't have the type of cash flow to support all these other extra expenses. So it's really, you gotta see what type of company you have, what kind of cash flow, you know, what kind of investors you may, you know, have for that technology. And then I would go after it. You know, one of the things I see a lot of the startups making mistake, you know, they, they have a great, you know, great, great idea, great idea that they have not been prepared for funding. They not have prepared for marketing. Uh, they, they're only thinking about the idea and the technology and, and prototyping part of it. So yeah, you gotta sort of go backward really a lot of times, and that's what really, you know, big companies do.

They go backward, you know, they go from customer side and backward to the product. As an engineer, I always go from product to customer, you know, all the fancy interesting and stuff, right? But that's wrong. That's very wrong. And I made that mistake many times. I have made multi-million dollar mistakes a number of times, you know, because of that, you know.

Well, I think that we should talk about that because, to be honest, you know, we're talking about the 10% or 12% that was reported by Ernst& Young of positive innovational projects and patents. And then there's the 90% that's not. What about the failures and how to recover from an investment and a failure that may have taken you 18 months to put together a prototype and you're like, wow, this is like not at all what we want. This has happened to my husband. He's a research scientist where they get scooped, right? Somebody else comes out fast with, with the same idea but faster. You know, does a paper get published before he can get it published? So So what are the, you know, what are the kinds of things that companies and leaders really need to think about and organizations need to think about in terms of setting up people for failure and those kind of flags and being able to kind of lift them and say, hey, this is what we were looking for. We were looking for you to take a risk. Now we're gonna keep moving on. Because I think that at the same time that we've talked about like rewarding people for successes and milestones, milestones and the steps that get there.

What about the folks that are self-aware enough to say, oh, hell, this didn't work at all?

There's so many obstacles that, you know, taking a— bringing a product to market, it's not easy. It's very, very challenging. Number one is that you have to understand that industry. You have to be part of that industry. You know, if you're not part of that industry, don't even touch that. So you got to have a very good— you got to have their language, you got to have to understand, you know, every— everything that is important in that industry. You got to understand their needs and so on, and then kind of go back and get involved in trying to bring a technology or product to a company. Honestly, most of failures I see, especially with startups, Again, as I said, they have a great idea, they're great engineers, you know, or, or maybe, but you gotta have the multiple number of different hats and you gotta be knowledgeable on all different hats. And the most important one is how to go to market, you know, it, that's the most important part of it. And how to go to market part of it is timing, right?

Yeah. I worked with an automotive company years ago and they had this, they have this brilliant, beautiful future-looking vehicle. It's got— they added solar panels to the roof, so it's got some self-charging capabilities. And it's just, you know, it just makes sense. And like I said years ago, they're still around. They're still— I think they're fundraising. Like, we don't see them on the road. So are they a failure? They're still functional to some degree. You could call it a question mark or an asterisk. Are they a success? No, you can't call it that. But there's, you know, there's companies somewhere in the middle that are on to something and they just haven't accelerated or kickstarted it.

Well, and like, you know, I'm just taking the words, Alan, that you just shared, like go-to-market, having the right go-to-market timing and strategy. And Aaron, you understand this, but it's not even just go-to-market. It's like, do you know your market? Right. So, Aaron, you brought up a great example. So the solar panels on the— on a vehicle, to really get it going, you know, they're still around. Maybe it's about what is that market? Because maybe it should be long-haul truckers, right? Like, you know, you see what I'm saying? And so, like, you know, it's about understanding. I really feel like you have a great idea, but you may not understand the industry, the ecosystem, the competitors, what's already in market, right? And why certain things have gone a certain way. And so to be able to really be very objective objective and look at things and really do your research is really important. And I feel like the marketing teams usually do such a great job of that because you're always looking at competitors, right? You're looking at, you're looking at the entire ecosystem. And so really thinking about, you know, how are you going to actually get this product out to everybody, you know, needs to happen at the beginning, not after you have the pretty Support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become the best in the neighborhood.

Whether you're growing your business or just trying to keep up with it, Square knows what you need. You can take payments, online orders, manage your inventory, staff, and more all in one place. That means that when you're with a customer, you're actually with that customer, and they can tell you've got things under control. For one, you're focused and not running around like crazy. That's because the whole thing's designed to be easy to use. The last time I stopped by a cafe where I saw the Square logo, I was like, yeah, they get it. I knew my experience would be a great one, and it was. It was good coffee too. And Square now offers 3 plans so you can pick the tools you need. So what are you doing about your business? Well, let's help you out. Square's offering our listeners up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at square.com/go/wefixedit.

Again, square.com/go/wefixedit.

And set up your business the way it works for you. Here's something I've done for work that I'll never volunteer for again: writing a step-by-step process document. It's tedious, it's time-consuming, and after all that effort, it just kind of sits there. Which is why I really like what today's sponsor Scribe has built for companies. Scribe is a workflow AI platform trusted by 94% of the Fortune 500, and I've had a chance to see it in action. Instead of stopping what you're doing to document a process, Scribe captures the process as you work, including clicks, steps, and screenshots, and automatically turns it into a clear, step-by-step guide that's ready to review and share. Scribe's AI can even look at that workflow and suggest where steps could be simplified or automated. And with the Guide Me feature, anyone you choose can follow that same process with real-time on-screen instructions showing them exactly where to click. And don't worry, it can automatically redact sensitive information like names, emails, and account numbers, so you can share with confidence. Look, don't just document your process. Why not find ways to make it better? To see what Scribe could look like for your organization, head to scribe.how/fixedit and mention We Fixed It for your first month of Scribe Capture free on select plans.

That's scribe.how/fixedit.

As a matter of fact, I'd seen them on TV like maybe a couple of weeks ago, still trying. And they had a beautiful car now, you know, it's, you know, it only goes 50 miles and it's very small, $70,000 or $80,000. And so the math doesn't work, right? The math does not work out at the end for people to buy. You don't build it for, you know, like, that's what I'm saying. You're engineer at, you know, and when you engineer, you build things for your own. A good CEO, a good business person, always focus on the customer first, always focus on the market first, always understand that industry in and out before comes to thinking about the ideas or implementing the idea.

No, that's very true, Alan, because the, the company I was talking about was part of a wave that was labeled as the next They were going head to head with Tesla, you know, and were they going to be the next Tesla? All indicators said yes. But a lot of those companies that were the next Tesla are not— they're not around anymore. They're a casualty. And maybe they had a superior product or they had something within their technology that was better at the time and they still didn't make it. They got squashed.

Well, a lot of times, and this has happened to us, Uh, the bigger companies come in and, and take you out right off, and there's nothing you can do. You know, they, they actually— I had situation actually on this car technology. They, they came after us because we had this patent on this technology, and they, they claim we are patent patrol. That means we corner a technology and don't let anybody— You have the patent on it. That says that. So they could go out and cancel your patent. They can go out and come up with a million different reasons why your patent is not valid. They can drag you through court system for years and years, and they have it. As a matter of fact, the law firm that came after us is a nonprofit law firm that the members are all the big boys, and when they're looking for something, they come after you. And as a matter of fact, I've been threatened that they're going to put me in jail. I'm not kidding you, you know, because I have this patent. It's much easier for big boys than a small company. Small companies are, you know, it's fact, it's true.

Well, you know, that's the thing is a large company, a billion-dollar company or, you know, $100 billion company has the resources behind them, you're going to probably go, okay, thanks. And so I do agree that, you know, when you think about the environment for innovation, it's, it's hard. It's not— there are a lot of risks involved, personal risks. Alan, you just said you could end up in jail. I mean, I remember, you know, I've worked at companies too where chief compliance officer is like, Your job is to make sure that I'm not going to jail. And I'm like, no, your job is to help us not do stuff that's going to put us in jail. So, you know, like when you're, you know, faced with those kinds of decisions, it's really hard to stay on your passionate, purpose-driven mission, you know, to get something done. And so I love that, you know, you've done it and you've failed and you've succeeded. But, you know, I, again, I think that— But when push comes to shove, it's about revenue, it's about profitability, it's about getting something out there usually. And I think that it's, it's interesting because I feel like the people that I know that are kind of these inventor mindsets, like that is less in their mind than the actual thing they're creating and building.

And so in the world of revenue and growth, How do you, you know, how do you reconcile that? Because that makes it very difficult, you know, because maybe Alan and I don't want to wait 20 years for that idea to come to fruition, right?

That's true, Melissa. And sometimes, sometimes the little guy wins, right? You know, sometimes you're fueled by Red Bull and a dream and, and yeah, you have no profit, but no one's told you what you're doing is impossible and it turns out it's not. And if you are protective of it and you're first to market and you have patent-defendable IP and all those things, and then investors jump on it, you can, you can have a win for the little guy.

Absolutely. I don't know, I don't want to make a wrong impression that, that no one should get into technology or startups. No, I'm not saying— as a matter of fact, you know, it's a challenge. It's a challenge and it's normal. You know, always the guy that's bigger is always winner. You know, no matter what. So that's, that's part of the nature, part of the, you know, that's there, you know, nothing we can do. Uh, so no, there's always a lot of opportunities for success and a lot of, you know, I guess all I was saying is that think about it's customer side first and then back for, you know. Right.

Melissa, you mentioned the concept of having a spinoff company or a company dedicated to, uh, to innovation. And I, I like that approach because It allows it to get out of the constraints and parameters of the big gray building next door where things just operate the way they operate. You got people standing on desks and having picnics or, you know, getting, getting dancing in the halls, getting out, shaking it off and then saying, all right, let's go do something different. And they're not being weighed down by the expectations of business as usual.

Well, and I also think it's important, you know, when I think about like fixes for companies that are considering this, is that like to allocate the money from— I'm just going to be mean and say it this way, but the cash cow, which would be the big gray building company, right? Allocating that money not away from their operations that are the bread and butter of what they do, right? So let's— they're, they're making widgets, they're selling those left and right, and, and they're steadily growing by 8% every year, shareholders are happy, blah, blah, blah. But like to be able to kind of allocate just money for like a high-velocity innovation lab that is set separately so that there is not the same sort of, you know, really tension on that team to create something that's revenue generating in a set timeframe that's a corporate calendar. And so again, that gets back to having metrics that are maybe Really based on milestones of, and signals of that project, of that innovation project, as well as allowing them the opportunity to be that 90% of the time, even if it doesn't go to market the way you thought it was going to go, you've learned during that journey.

I, I tell you how we, how we do it generally. So, I, I said we have 2 different arms, right? So, one arm is that we, we provide, you know, our engineering services, product development to other companies, and one that we, we develop our own technologies. We take advantage of the time slots that the engineers are, are available. That's when we develop our own technology. And our primary goal, cash flow here. But then as we have time, we spend time on this technology over years and we build it. We don't work on our technology unless we get to the point we say, oh wow, now we like— we have worked on some technology for automatic— for robotic transmission for cars or for any other machinery. As a matter of fact, I have it here. This is smallest transmission in the world for a car. So 2 of these guys, they created a transmission for a car. And with this, this is robotic transmission. Wow.

So what you're showing us is blue and it looks like a plus And it's got a gold accent on the front.

What is the gold part in the front with the transition?

Well, it's kind of gears that goes up and down and—

Oh, okay.

It's all robotic. So as a matter of fact, based on our understanding and research we have done based on this technology that we developed, we could increase EV cars range by 40%, which is huge. It's huge. But unfortunately, taking this to market is, it's for big boys. It's not for small companies. It's got a lot of, you know, yeah. Like on this one, I've been working on this technology since 2017. Every time we have time, we spend more time on it. As a matter of fact, I'm developing the next version, which is going to go into the car. This is the kind of next version that we kind of modeling it and so on. Uh, this is the one that goes into the car as a robotic transmission.

Uh, I like, I like all these. So this is yellow, it's bigger, it's like, uh, like a looser plus sign for, for our audio listeners.

Right.

So support for today's episode comes from Square, the business platform that helps sellers become the best in the neighborhood. Whether you're growing your business or just trying to keep up with it, Square knows what you need. You can take payments, online orders, manage your inventory, staff, and more all in one place. That means that when you're with a customer, you're actually with that customer, and they can tell you've got things under control. For one, you're focused and not running around like crazy. That's because the whole thing's designed to be easy to use. The last time I stopped by a cafe where I saw the Square logo, I was like, yeah, they get it. I knew my experience would be a great one, and it was. It was good coffee too. And Square now offers 3 plans so you can pick the tools you need. So what are you doing about your business? Well, let's help you out. Square's offering our listeners up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at square.com/go/wefixedit. Again, square.com/go/wefixedit. And set up your business the way it works for you. Here's something I've done for work that I'll never volunteer for again: writing a step-by-step process document.

It's tedious, it's time-consuming, and after all that effort, it just kinda sits there. Which is why I really like what today's sponsor Scribe has built for companies. Scribe is a workflow AI platform trusted by 94% of the Fortune 500, and I've had a chance to see it in action. Instead of stopping what you're doing to document a process, Scribe captures the process as you work, including clicks, steps, and screenshots, and automatically turns it into a clear step-by-step guide that's ready to review and share. Scribe's AI can even look at that workflow and suggest where steps could be simplified or automated. And with the Guide Me feature, anyone you choose can follow that same process with real-time on-screen instructions showing them exactly where to click. And don't worry, it can automatically redact sensitive information like names, emails, and account numbers. So you can share with confidence. Look, don't just document your process. Why not find ways to make it better? To see what Scribe could look like for your organization, head to scribe.how/fixedit and mention We Fixed It for your first month of Scribe Capture free on select plans. That's scribe.how/fixedit.

With this technology, even though we've been working on it for 7 years, still we have challenges how to get it to the market. It's not easy. Uh, so yeah, you just keep, we keep working on it until we find a window to jump into it. So, uh, that's what we are looking for. Yeah.

But there, even if, even if those never go to market, and I hope they do, and, you know, I hope they're wildly successful, um, there's still value in passion projects and still value in exploration and experimentation as a sidetrack to whatever you're commissioned to do, right?

Absolutely.

So, okay. But then at a certain point, you either call it a passion project and you say, this is what I do in my, my spare hours. Or my off time, or, you know, there's a knock at the door and someone says, how's it going with that thing we talked about? You know, when is it gonna be ready? When can we commercialize? And if the answer's 3 weeks from now, maybe that's acceptable. If it's next December, maybe there's just a little bit less appetite or patience for it. If it's 4 years from now, you know, you really have to set that expectation that, no, no, no, hold on, this one's gonna be worth it. And then I'd figure you have to deliver on that, otherwise there's jobs on the line or other negative impact that happens because that thing never materialized.

Don't get me wrong, even on this guy that we developed, so far it costs us a few million dollars for development. It's a lot of firmware, a lot of stuff in it. But anyhow, it's like a puzzle, really. It's like a puzzle. You know, when, you know, I, I see it as a puzzle. So you have to be able to see through the puzzle, see the end of it, you know, see, and then try to solve the problem.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And you work on enough of those, even passion projects, just fueled by your own ambition. I think Google Maps came from that. It was, I believe it was an employee just doing something on the weekend saying, hey Google, my employer, you might wanna see what I've been, what I've been devoting my time to. And they said, ooh, that looks like a Google product. And here we are with Google Maps now.

There you are.

Yes. Let's, let's see if we can fix this. I think we've created some of the right conditions for companies to avoid some of the, the landmines and things that are associated with going the wrong way for far too long and burning too much capital and resources. All right. So we'll, we'll call it a passion project is a passion project. Sometimes those can be commercialized and they sometimes they do materialize. Sometimes they change an entire company and reverse fortunes and And that becomes the company, but not always. Sometimes it's just an ancillary revenue or it just helps or comes and goes. But if you are an innovative-minded company, you have to allow for innovation. You have to allow for experimentation. There's some understanding that the metrics are different, the accountability is different, not necessarily gonna be held to the same standards as the big gray building next door. But if you are a profitable or profit-driven company, there's some expectation that there will be a payoff somewhere down the road. So it's important to communicate what that is and keep tabs on it. Again, there's that knock on the door for accountability where I think maybe between, you know, the engineers and the innovators and those responsible for cracking down on the engineers and innovators, there has to be some kind of mutual understanding of like, like, you give us breathing room and, you know, there's an expectation that you gotta deliver.

So I think that's probably the most critical part of this is having that aligned understanding that is nurtured and understood from an organizational perspective that there are gonna be people that are dedicating their careers within the company. They're gonna be heads down. Don't question them too much, but do question them 'cause leave 'em too far along to their own devices, they could burn through Endless amounts of time and capital, and maybe have nothing to show for it. So there's got to be some checks and balances. If you do that, you might be onto something. You might be onto something worth protecting. Of course, take the legal protections. Hopefully no one throws you in jail for owning a patent. But that sounds like an extreme case. But you know, if you really are onto something, find the right aligned partners that are going to help you take it to market. Make sure what you have is defensible. Make sure what you have. Has an audience waiting for it because you never wanna go to market with this beautiful, glorious technology and then people say no. It doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong, but you might be way too early or you might be wrong by a 10th of a degree and another company comes along and says, thanks for that.

And they're much bigger and they just wipe you out of existence. So those are some of the cautions, some of the, I think the roadmap we're building for companies. To— we're not discouraging innovation. We're not discouraging new technology. We want everyone to have a fair crack at it. But if we give them this advice and say, here you go, did we just save, I don't know, some billions of dollars and point them in the right direction?

Did we fix it?

Melissa, what do you say?

I think this is one of those things where it's more just like you said, it's more a playbook for innovation. And I think that it's really important to understand that the cost of innovation to your company, especially if you're an established company, can be the entire company in and of itself. Like a cautionary tale is Kodak, right? Like to not be, have innovation lab looking and saying, oh, we're gonna be going from film to digital, you know, and what can we do and how can we, you know, 'cause we have like just a beloved brand, how can we make sure that we are keeping up with everything that's going on? Because evolution happens and that's what happens in every marketplace. So to me it's about funding it with the cash cow, which is the larger company and source, if you have that, and not the general operations, so that there is that ability to have just, you know, no fences, you know, just allow innovation to happen in its own time and in its own pace without the pressures of what's on the revenue calendar. I also think rewarding the kill, not just the win, is really important because I do think a lot of companies, especially bigger companies, pile pilot the hell out of things and it doesn't, it just doesn't go anywhere and it's just a waste.

And it's because people are afraid to really kind of say what needs to be said. So I really want there to be integrity and authenticity and purpose in this journey. And then have the team be involved from an organization perspective. And I think, Alan, you've brought up how this has really been something that you've done really well, which is let them create the milestones, let them create what operational signals or what kind of innovation signals they're going to use to say, this is working for us, or this is where we take a step back and pivot. So I think we've definitely set up some really good ideas for companies, founders, innovators, innovation teams to really think about how do they become the next big thing.

Nice. Thank you, Melissa. Alan, did we encourage companies without discouraging them? Did we create the Any advice for going forward and do you think we fixed it?

I feel like I've been a little bit discouraging here, but I really did not mean it. I'm a soccer player and I always utilize the soccer philosophy into the business. So I mean, if I'm falling down, if I get tripped, the only other way back into the game when I get up, stand up and run. Any other way, I'm not playing, somebody else is playing. So that philosophy, it always stays with me and, you know, when I fall down, I clean myself, I get up, you know, get the dust off, get the dirt off and start like running again, you know, that's the only way, you know. And being in business, the first rule of being in any business doesn't have to be a technology business, You cannot give up. You can't, you know, you got to be, you got to have very strong personality. Strong personality is very important to run a company. I don't care who you are, Elon Musk, we all fail. Everybody keep failing. There is 9 failure, only 1 success.

Don't be afraid of failure. It's inevitable. But then, you know, there's success, uh, at the end of some of those roads too. There has to be. We'll add that to our fix. Well, that's gonna close out this episode of We Fix It, You're Welcome. Before we go, thank you, Melissa. A big thank you to our guest, Alan Neha of Sunman Engineering. Alan, I've been in marketing for a long time. I've got some good product ideas. If I want something developed or prototyped, how do I find you?

They can always refer to our website, sunmantech.com, or they can call us, call our office at 408- 441-1500, and we'd be happy to help them out.

You got the hotline. Thank you, Alan. To all of you, to our new listeners, our longtime Fixaholics, I have looked into the future and we have more great episodes ahead for you. We've lined up amazing guests for you and topics that I can't wait to jump into. So if you love our show, you're in for a treat. Remember to subscribe so you never miss an episode. Give us a rating, Rave about us on social, all those good things.

Thank you for having me on your show.

Thank you, Alan.

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