Transcript of #690 - Josh Brolin

I want to say that, uh, my new special, I'm Doing Fine, is out October 20th on Netflix. So thank you guys so much for your support. And, uh, I really— I'm excited about it, and I hope that you'll give it a shot. And I also want to let you know that we've got a full restock on your favorite merch over at theovonstore.com. Um, we loaded up on the Be Good to Yourself Scribble Tees and, uh, a new RatCon drop, so you can check that out. Again, it's theovonstore.com if there's something there that you choose to get. And yeah, just amen, man. Thank you guys. He's a legendary actor known for movies like No Country for Old Men, Dune, Sicario. The list goes on. Goonies. His new film Whalefall is in theaters this week. A wonderful time catching up with the Cheeto Rat himself. Mr. Josh Brolin. And I don't want to find out what's behind door number 2 with Mike Tyson, you know what I'm saying? You just, you take what he gives you.

Totally.

So,

hey man, Thanks for having me on your show,

dude. Thank you for being here, man.

Seriously, it's nice to see you.

You too, bro. It's a pleasure, bro. It's, um, yeah, it's up— and I don't know if I can— if I can say this and I can take this part out. It's a— it's nice to talk to another alcoholic.

Totally.

Is that okay to say?

Yeah, I think everybody knows it by now.

Okay.

I don't know if everybody knows it with you. They definitely know it with me. I don't really talk about AA, but I talk about sobriety a lot.

Okay.

Yeah.

And that's— are you sure that's okay if I said that?

Fuck yeah.

Okay, because God, dude, yeah, sometimes it's like, hey, you see— if you see somebody else that's you know, I don't know, it just feels like something's a little different.

Yeah, there is. And you're out there now. You know, it's funny, I was thinking— I'll tell you the story really quick. Celsius, I guess, is your company— or not your company, but you're sponsored by them or whatever. Liquid Death.

Yeah.

So Liquid Death, I have like a little tiny stake in or whatever. And, and the whole reason why Liquid Death did so well, because if you look at the cans, they look like 40s.

Yeah.

Right? And people are drinking less and less. Like, whether they're getting sober or not is kind of beside the point, but they're drinking are drinking less and less. So they go to these concerts and they'd have these cans, and the kids started drinking these cans that are full of water, and it made them feel like they weren't ousted, that they weren't going to be judged because they weren't drinking, because they had a can in their hand that looked like they were having a beer.

Oh yeah, you're still in the group. When that metal hits your lips—

Seriously, man, right?

Yeah, there's a little—

When you hear that, oh, it's great.

Yeah, you almost like—

And even as a sober guy, like, I'm cool with that. I like that sound. I want that sound to continue. with in my life. I just don't want the fucking drunk with it,

right?

You know?

Oh dude, sometimes I would lay in bed and just open cans of that over and over again out of like 7 cans.

What, after you got sober? Yeah, just as remembrance. Remembrance of things past. What'd you do tonight?

Um,

yeah, it's nice to be sober, man, and it's nice to know a sober buddy. And there's something else— we saw each other outside and we didn't talk. But I think that was the first thing that popped in both of our minds.

Yeah. And

it's cool.

It kind of like, it gives me a little bit of an exhale because honestly, dude, it just feels like so much less pressure for some reason.

Yeah, that's cool.

You know,

I like that.

Yeah, I like that too, man. So thank you so much for being here, dude.

Yeah, man.

It's a pleasure to see what I would look like if I were a little handsomer.

Or a little gnarlier. A little more angry. A little more angry. But you're not. You just, you have like, I don't

know,

you look very welcoming, man. You're a very welcoming face. Oh, thank you, dude. You are. I

appreciate you saying that, dude. Um, Cito Rats, that I'm reading your hat, that's your company?

No, that's a group that I grew up with. If you want to get heavy for a second.

Yeah, let's get it, dude. I got my rat on my sweatshirt.

Is that a rat? Oh wait, what is that?

Because, uh, they call me the Rat King.

Wait, get the fuck out of here. Seriously? So you made that?

Yeah, this is part of our merch.

So I made this. I just took over the, the, what is it, the trademark for this.

Oh, you did? Cito Rats?

So the guys that I grew up with called themselves the Cito Rats because they were in Montecito. And Montecito now is perceived like fucking Oprah haven or something, which is fine.

Okay, so fancy now.

Yeah, there's a nucleus of like a lot of money and especially actors or industry people. But the group that I grew up with, um, 36 out of 50 are dead from shit that we were just talking about.

Really?

And then my buddy would always talk about, hey, man, you remember that place that we were this and I had a needle hanging out of my neck? And do you remember on the corner of Romero Canyon and all this stuff? And I said, I'm so sick of hearing those stories that I'm going to spearhead this whole thing. So I've brought the whole thing back as a like survived and updated, like new and improved.

And that's the, that's the idea of the brand and also of the humans.

Yes.

Survived and updated.

Survived and updated.

Amen, bro.

So yeah. So if you look up Sitaras, you can kind of get because like I don't know if you ever saw Bra Boys in Maruba. Like, there was a group of surfers there, Bra Boys, and they did a documentary on it. You can watch that. There's Dahui in Hawaii. There was Wolfpack in Kala'a. There were Sito Rats. Kind of like skaters. Skaters would have what? Who were the guys down south? Was, you know, Tony Alva and all those guys. Z-Boys. Dogtown. Dogtown and Z-Boys. And then you had N-Men and like Sacramento, and you had different— like, that was the skater. We were the surfer version of that,

the Cedar Rats.

Yeah, because like Dogtown and Z-Boys, those guys, it wasn't like— Jay Adams was severe. He was the only guy who was—

Jay Adams, can you help me out, Nick, a little bit?

Yeah, there you go. Hit that picture. Yeah,

let's go.

He was, he was a Dogtown guy, but he was the only one of that Dogtown group that was like that.

Got it.

Whereas if you look at N-Men in Sacramento— I don't know if you want to bring up N-Men, but N-Men in Sacramento, everybody was like that. Ah, so the surf groups, they were all like that. Cito Rats were all like that.

Got it. So he was a real one.

He was a real one.

Amen, bro.

He was a real one.

RIP Jay Adams, dude.

Bring up Cito Rats and see what comes up.

Um, the Montecito— yeah, dude, the Rats, bro. Well, it's funny you talk about Rats, that they were surfers, because here's one of the reasons why I, I correlate with with rats. Um, for one, rats can swim for up to 3 days, right? Okay, they can tread water for up to 3 days, dude. Right on. So that is a survi— like, that thing is fucking—

that's a badass motherfucker, dude.

That is a badass, dude. That's a badass. Imagine you go out on a fishing trip with your buddies,

with your

rich friends,

everybody's drowned around you, you still got the rat sitting there like, I'm good, man, I'm good, I got another 2 days in me.

Yeah, yeah. So that's pretty cool. And rats have whiskers that are extremely sensitive. That's how they pick up a lot of information. I'm super sensitive. So it's like, that's a correlation for me. And this is one of my favorites. Rats, they don't vomit. They won't vomit. So that's why they're able to live in the shit. That's why they're able to live in the muck and have it just the, the, like the worst, the, in the worst spaces.

Because they don't vomit?

Yeah. It's like it doesn't get to them. Like it doesn't like—

Oh, got it.

It doesn't affect them. Like their olfactory senses. and stuff, so they're able to stay in there. So there's something that's like, I don't know, like even in like the—

just like a cockroach, like super resilient.

Yeah,

yeah,

but an upscale cockroach. Yeah, like shorty thick.

Like a rat is an upscaled cockroach.

Oh, it's a fucking problem.

That's wild with the whiskers, the whiskers being sensitive. And you called yourself super sensitive, like an empath. Is that what they call it?

I don't know about—

I don't know what— I don't know.

I don't know what empath is either. A person who experiences the emotions, energy, and physical feelings of other people as if they were their own. I think sometimes I'm like that. I think honestly, I didn't develop, and I never thought about this, sometimes I didn't really develop my own sense of feelings when I was growing up. And so sometimes I think you almost take those, you take moments off of other people's lives and existences, and that's why sometimes they feel like a lot.

Does

that make sense at all?

No, it does make sense. And then this is not like a ploy to try to talk about, but I wrote a book a year and a half ago, and it had to do, you know, like kind of anecdotal paintings of how I grew up. And my mom was a wildlife activist, so we had wolves in our house, we had mountain lions, we had—

Wait, in your house?

In and out of our house.

Like, how much?

Like, my brother had 60 stitches in his leg at 6 years old from a wolf.

No.

And my mom definitely prioritized those animals more than us. So the, the point is, is that emotions and all that weren't— it's not that they weren't allowed, it's just there was so much— there was such a high level of chaos that you just didn't— you know, what were you gonna do, like go in a corner and like cry, or like talk to your parents about like how you were scared you were gonna be eaten? Like, it just wasn't— it's just that wasn't part of the deal. So yeah.

Yeah, sometimes I think when you have to be so alert, like you're saying, there's chaos, you have to be so alert, it's hard for some of those other things, I feel like I'm not having self-pity. I'm just thinking, I think it's hard for some of that other world to develop inside of you because you're just on a, you know, totally, you're just like, you're like somebody who's got to do night watch day and night.

It feels like, you know, seriously. And don't you think, I mean, like, to just bring it full circle, that that's why we drank? I mean, what were you like when you drank? Because when I drank, it was like the— it was the best. It was like God feeling. It was like, I don't have to think at all now. I can do whatever I want. And I don't have that little voice in there going, oh, you're a piece of shit, or you're— you can't do that, you're not good enough, or you're not— like, all that went away. Except, you know, my, my version of it was— it just— there was no limit, there was no ceiling. What were you like when you were drunk?

When I drank, I was like somebody that was going to get cocaine.

I love how you said that deadpan.

Oh, to be honest with you.

Seriously?

Oh yeah, I'm not even joking.

Oh no.

Yeah, when I drank, it was like, I just like, I think I just drank just because I like, I didn't love drinking that much.

Me neither.

It was hard. Really

interesting. No,

it was hard for me to even realize I was an alcoholic because I didn't— my friends were shocked. Like, you're an alcoholic, dude? Like, like, you're a fucking weirdo, but you're not an alcoholic.

You're just a freak.

Yeah, yeah. You got a lot of other shit that I would worry about before that. Uh, but no, I think it made me go like— because cocaine, I think it made me be able to feel immediately how I could feel immediately some way. And I don't— there was something about that, like, I'm gonna control how I feel right now. And it wasn't even the best feeling. I think it was a scared feeling. But I think deep on the other sides of me, there was a lot of scared feelings. And for some reason, it was like 2 bookends.

Yeah.

And finally, there was something like— I don't even know, but sometimes I theorize little things like that.

So is that with alcohol or cocaine?

That was with cocaine. It was just like I'd have— the only reason I wanted to drink was then I could have an excuse to go to

go do coke. To get— well, you drank and then suddenly it wasn't like— wasn't even a choice. You had to go get coke,

right? Or it was like

an immediate thing.

Oh, I'd see a child riding by on a bike and I'm like, oh, I should get some coke. I could look at a counter like, oh, Easter's in 4 months, I'll grab a bag.

The coke— the coke brought me down,

dude. Cocaine helped me quit vaping.

In what way?

It just— I think

it took the place of everything else that Any other vice you may have had?

I think

it was all vices in one.

Well, sometimes a cocaine hangover, it would be a couple days, and I didn't want to do anything else to damage myself during that time, so it would give me enough time away from nicotine.

Anyway, anyway, um, I won't bring it up again.

No, it's okay. It's interesting to talk about. You know what is nice? It's fun to laugh about.

Totally.

Because it takes the air out of whatever part of me that wants to behave that way.

Yeah,

it makes it fun. And it makes it like, I don't know, for a second you have some community. And that's all I ever really wanted.

I think it's more fun.

It is more fun.

I honestly, I agree. I don't say that just to say it because I think other people want to hear it. I actually think it's more fun. And I had a fucking blast when I was using. Did you? And I have more fun now.

Yeah, let's go.

I do.

Oh dude, I believe you had so much fun, dude. If I fucking— dude, I was doing it and I was pretty ugly looking, you know what I'm saying? Like, you're fine.

What are you talking about? Why do you keep saying that?

I mean, I did it and I looked like me, right? If I looked like you, I would have been definitely out partying, bro. Dude, I had to have a couple drinks to think I love you. All right, um, but let's rewind it, man. Let's, let's zone it back in a little bit, dude. So what do you mean your brother got attacked by a wolf?

Yeah.

And you guys were what, just like— was it like a regular night or was it like, like— what do you mean?

We lived in Paso Robles. We lived on a ranch.

Paso Robles? Yeah.

Okay. North of here. And we lived in a 200— on a 230-acre ranch.

Oh, wow.

My mom was from Texas. My mom was from Corpus Christi, Texas. 5'3, super loud, like the voice of a 6'8 man.

Yeah.

And yeah, and she, uh, she was just— animals were her thing, like from when she was a kid. So she became an animal activist. She started working with Fish and Game and all that. And then she would take animals away from people who had illegally taken them out of the wild. have them jailed, and she would nurse them back to health. And if they'd been defanged or declawed or something like that, she'd find the most habitable zoo and then put them there. She didn't like those little cage zoos and all that. But we would— so the transitional time would be in our place. So we had, you know, a lion, we had a bear at one point, we had a chimpanzee for a long time.

Oh, really? What was his name?

Reggie.

Hmm.

Reggie. Reggie. Reggie. There's a story of Reggie where Reggie— I used to watch Arnold Schwarzenegger movies with my mom. And you know how Arnold would hold the gun here, right? And that was like a— I think Sly used to do that too.

Yeah, that was a big thing at that time.

Big thing. Like in the '80s. Was it the '80s?

In the '80s. Heavy guns.

Yeah, exactly. Big bullets. And then there was a guy who came over and Reggie was in his cage. He wasn't in the house. My mom left somewhere. Reggie was in his cage. A guy came over to fix a chicken coop. Reggie, like, finagled or MacGyvered his way out of the cage, came over. Everybody where I'm from has a gun right in their truck, right on the window in a rack. So he grabbed the gun, fucking put one— because he had seen it obviously in a movie— put one in the chamber. And the guy—

Reggie did?

Reggie did.

Oh, damn.

And the guy— and then suddenly the guy fixing the chicken coop hears And he goes, what the fuck is that? And he's laying down and he looks past the chicken coop and there's Reggie holding the gun at wayside.

Yeah. Damn, Reggie was a real one.

He was a real one. He was, he was the masculine energy in that.

Oh, and that's you and him in a Where's Waldo?

Oh, that's Reggie right there.

That's you and him dressing up for Halloween right there, boy.

That's exactly right.

And that's, that's really him?

Yeah, that's him.

Wow.

Where'd you find that picture, dude? That was just on the internet. That's crazy.

Both you guys look nice, man.

Dude, that was me at my worst.

Was it?

Yeah. When I look at that, that was a— yeah, that was a wacky time. Look at that. Like, what is that that I have on my face? Do I shave the top from the nose, like, partway down?

It's definitely— yeah.

Something's up. It's very— something's up.

It's very like, I'm gonna be the best looking guy who's gonna cross the Atlantic in the—

like, it looks like 20s. Don't I look like— not in my 20s, like 1920s? Like John Fonte.

I'm seeing maybe one of the outsiders. I'm seeing— Really? Somewhat. But I'm also seeing very spice trader, like—

Spice trader.

Aggressive brother of a successful spice trader.

Always an aggressive brother.

And you finally show up with the frickin' coriander that no one's ever heard of.

That's good.

And you've got the market coriandered.

That's it. Very good.

Very good. It was okay. Not bad. You're being supportive. Yeah, not bad. I'll agree with— did it feel— was your mom like— was it easier for her to care about animals, do you think, or something? Or was she like good?

For sure. You're the first person that's ever asked that. For sure. But the human thing wasn't— didn't work for her. And she was a big drinker. So when she would drink, that was— that was her ability to kind of like, you know, my mom didn't just say, hi, how you doing? She grabbed you by the lapels and pulled you across the table and planted one on your mouth. That's how she'd say hello. And it was usually from like, you know, £380 cowboy.

Wow.

You know, there's a thing in my book where she says— She's a force. Oh, dude, beyond, beyond. And I miss her and she's not around anymore. She— but she— yeah, there's a thing in my book where she says, and I know this is not cool to say now, she saw this cowboy and he had a comb in his back pocket and she yells out— I was about 8 years old— and she yells out, hey! She had this voice and she goes, why do you have that comb in your pocket? And he turned around and he said, I'm sorry, ma'am. And she said, that comb, it looks fucking

Yeah.

I'm like, why? Like, what's the fucking point? What's the end goal here?

Yeah.

And then 15 minutes later, you have 10 guys buying my mom drinks. Ah. Always pulled it off somehow. She knew a bunch of truckers, and if somebody flipped her off on the road, she'd call truckers on the CB and they'd box them in. Like, bro, that happened many times with me in the car. Like, I remember, like, hey, Breaker 1-9, this is, uh, Catwoman. I got another flipper. Yes. Okay, Jane, we got you. You know, and then the guys would come out of fucking nowhere. There was no 18-wheelers anywhere. And then suddenly box a guy in. Wow. One guy would leave, they'd push him off the side of the road, and then, thank you guys, I appreciate it, love you. You know.

Oh my God, dude.

She was great. She was great. She was, she was severe, but she was great.

That's a cool word to use. That's interesting. Severe is an interesting word to use.

So when you grow up in that, not as a victim, because you said that earlier, you know, not to victimize yourself, you go, that's what it was. And I accept it fully for what it was. I like it because it colored my life later in a way, once I've figured out a way to kind of regulate the whole thing.

Yeah.

But without figuring it out, then you're just spinning. Then you're just fucking going. You're like, I don't know what's going to happen from Tuesday to Wednesday to Thursday, but here we go.

Yeah, dude, it feels— well, that's part of the unmanageability. They say it's fun until it's

not.

Yeah,

that's it. It's fun until it's not.

Yeah, dude.

And then you try to get that fun back, and then that's when it gets really fucking crazy.

Yeah.

Then you're like, I know I can figure this out. I know it. I, I fucking know it.

Yeah, I can do this.

Start working out like Neil deGrasse Tyson, like, you know, geometry in your head, trigonometry, astrophysics.

You're drawing shit on the walls.

Drawing shit on the walls. I know I can drink. I can fucking figure it out.

You're carrying the one. You're fucked. Yeah, you're using a calculator at the bar, like, yeah, one of those

big

ones.

Yeah.

Yeah, T-Mobile Sidekick or something. Um, yeah, I went through a spell, uh, where I was having a tough time, and then I was so thankful to get back on track, man.

Yeah, man,

it can get scary out there.

It gets scary. And then, you know, we said again, we tried to drop this subject, but it's like you look back and you go, like, I see guys that are going through it right now, and then you'll see them, like, you know, they get, you know, a month or maybe a couple weeks, and then they go back out and they try it and They lose their wives and they lose everything and they can't see their kids anymore because of 2 days out, 3 days out. Yeah. Because they had to go get 5 hookers. Like, what is it about alcohol that makes you want to go get 5 hookers? I don't know. But whatever's going on in that person's mind, that's a hidden little gem in there that nobody knows about, gets unleashed.

Yeah.

And, and you go, yeah, it's not going to— that's going to happen every time.

Yeah.

No matter what, when you eat strawberries, you will break out.

Yeah.

It's gonna happen. No, but if I just eat the right strawberry— Nope.

Yeah, but if I just have strawberry shortcake—

Yeah, exactly. That's exactly right. That's right.

Um,

anyway,

were the Cito Rascals— was it— was there partying then, or was that just sort of a surfing club? Like,

well, no, no, no, no, it—

like, was it a— was it—

It wasn't a gang.

Okay.

It was definitely not a gang. It was a group of guys. That's what I mean. Didn't you have a group of guys growing up?

Oh, yeah.

Yeah, well, that's it. That's what it was. It was just a community, especially in the '80s when you had parents that, you know, were kind of— how did I put it in my book? They were more interested in the sound of their ice than they were about necessarily parenting. You know, they all had their drinks and their cocaine and their this and their parties and all that kind of stuff. So we relied on each other and it was a great reliance. It was amazing. But it was the beginning of punk rock. So the guys that— my best friend growing up, Jason Sears, had a band called Rich Kids on LSD, RKL, and that became a big band.

Rich Kids on LSD.

On LSD. And they've— and they've influenced— like, I talked to Eddie Vedder about it. He said, well, no fucking way, you know Jason Sears? We were hugely influenced by that. I mean, there's a ton of bands that were influenced, and this is like the greatest band that never got the notoriety that any of these other bands got. But that, like, Jason was my best friend.

Oh, wow.

So all those guys, whether it was punk rock and whether it was surfing or that was the beach, and, you know, it was, it was, it was a group of guys that you could rely on that were a fucking great group of guys. I mean, great, dude. Talk about colorful. So you're going colorful from that, but then She's Busy Now and we got Color This. And if you look at the Who, you're like, brah boys, like I said. But then it starts to self-destruct, then it starts to not work anymore. It was super fun for a while. Then we started not going to school, and then you get into, you know, the heroin that came in in the '90s, and suddenly these guys just started dying left and right, you know?

Some of your friends up there?

Most of them.

Wow.

There's a couple of guys that, like, when I talk about this, they're like, you know, we're all not dead, dude. By the way, we all didn't die. Some of us are still okay. Chris Rest.

Some of us are still treading water over there.

Yeah.

The rats.

Exactly. The rats. rat. That's it. I love that you said that. I love that you said that.

Well, they're fascinating, man. They're fascinating animals. I mean, they're— and they're, they're kind of— I don't know if reviled is the word, but they're like— I don't know, they're always kind of looked down upon or looked at like—

Rats are?

Yeah, or looked at like this outsider thing.

Yeah.

You know,

I'm gonna look for this picture for a second. And they feel—

yeah, a rat, it's like their skin, it's like they crawl and their skin crawls, you know? It's like a— it's like,

yeah. But why is it always like Cito Rats obviously has some connotation where it's like, this is the— this is the sh— the shit of the shit?

Yeah, but Cito Rats sounds punk though. It sounds—

it sounds good.

It sounds dope. Yeah,

it does sound good.

I agree, it's great. And so now it's an actual— it's a brand.

Those guys are still— I mean, the guys are still around. Like, everybody's older now. Everybody's in their late 50s and early 60s. Yeah. And, and, but then you had it, it was purely out of reaction of being sick of hearing the stories, you know. It's like that, you're like, okay, these guys are sober now, people have gotten sober, it's good. There's still Cito rats, it's still scrappy, it's still punk, but it's just not as self-destructive as it was. But I went to a wedding recently, I officiated a wedding for a friend of mine.

Mm-hmm.

whose dad was a Mesa Rat, which was up the hill, and old gang member, gnarly guy. Like, Santa Barbara was way gnarlier than anybody could have imagined right back then. You know, you can't imagine it now.

Yeah, no, you can't.

Ever. And so I was— and this girl came up to me and it was, it was like, I've seen, I've seen enough recovery now where I'm not used to it anymore. And this girl came up to me and she's like, hey, man, I knew Damon, dude. And I was like, oh fuck, who's that? She was like, hey man, like, do you remember like we were 15, bro? And I think you touched my tits at some point, bro. And I was like, oh fuck, this is why I don't want to talk about it anymore. This chick was super gnarly. And she kept talking about one of my best friends was found in the bathroom. He didn't— he died. He OD'd. And she was like, Damon, man, what the fuck? Can you believe it, man? But it was— and the smell of vodka, bro. The smell of whatever it was that she was having. But that's what I wanted to try and shift.

Yeah, kind of refurbish it.

Refurbish it. Perfect word.

'Cause it also deserves a bit of refining because at a certain point, like, something's tough and rugged and has its period like that, but at a certain point, it's put in so much work to be that that it almost deserves someone to come along— I don't want to say like a jeweler of sorts, but an appreciator— yeah, and come along and say, you know what, this deserves to kind of be, uh, refurbished in just enough of a way where it can be revered.

We like the foundation, we respect the foundation. It's like, we bought a house in Santa Barbara, it was Joe Walsh's old house.

Joe Walsh from freaking, uh, Unsolved Mysteries?

No, no, no, dude. What?

Who am I thinking of?

Joe Walsh from the Eagles. You're thinking of the guy that— who is he thinking of? Yeah, that's Joe. That Joe Walsh.

Oh yeah. Joe Walsh.

Joe Walsh, one of the greatest guitarists of all time. And we didn't change the house at all.

I'm thinking John Walsh.

No, you're thinking of John Walsh. I remember him. What was the show that he had? America's Most Wanted. That was it.

Yeah.

America's Most Wanted. I used to watch that show.

Oh, it was a good show.

That was a good show.

You bought Joe Walsh's old house?

Old house. And it was so ratty and fucked up and it like didn't have a foundation in half of it and all that. But we didn't change anything. We just updated it.

Nice.

And it's like ranchy and cool and bitchin' lookin'. There's rocks all over the place. Same concept.

Yeah.

Same concept. Because you just get— see, like, I don't want to be defined in one way. I don't want to be like, I am a Mamacita rat, you know, fuck you, you know, throw a rock at your head. It's what we do. You know, you're like, that's just dumb. You're 60, bro. You're throwing rocks at people's heads. So even like Like, I know you had Neil deGrasse Tyson on, and I did Colbert's penultimate show, and Colbert and I became super close.

Is he a neat guy?

He is the coolest. Like, literally, I get emotional talking about it. He is the coolest, most caring motherfucker I know.

Wow.

Like, amazing. An amazing human being.

I'd like to meet him.

He's really cool, man. You should have him on the show now that he's got nothing to do.

Oh, did he lose his job?

Well, not— yeah, he got fired.

Oh, that was it.

They canceled the show. That's why I said penultimate show. The show before his last show.

Oh, the penultimate.

Penultimate show.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Just say the show before the last one. Okay, dude, look,

I just saw that shaming look. Um, like, why you got to do that to me on my own fucking show, dude? Bitch.

No, dude, we fucking— they knew when you said it. I didn't know. They knew when you said it.

You should put it up on the thing. That's what you should have done is put it up on the thing.

We do vocabulary at the end of the year. We do a big vocabulary episode.

Do you really?

We're gonna start this year. We're 9 years late on it. Penultimate means second to last or immediately preceding the final one in a series or sequence.

Perfectly used.

The penultimate.

Perfectly placed.

Very well.

Penultimate.

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I've been using it. I like— they got that, that first button, boy, when that thing starts up, you feel it, baby. You feel that thing getting ready to just go to work, boy. If you're already using a lawnmower, this feels like a serious upgrade. And if you've never tried Manscaped before, the Lawn Mower Ultra Gen 6 is easily the most advanced body groomer they've ever made. Better blades, smarter features, longer battery life, and an overall grooming experience that's faster, easier, and a whole lot more comfortable. Head to manscaped.com and use code Theo to get 15% off plus free shipping at checkout. That's 15% off plus free shipping with code Theo at manscaped.com. Or if you need it today, it's available now at Best Buy. Dude, my mom would keep a dictionary in the house. It was like the one thing, like our fucking— it would be the most miserable existence ever,

right?

But every now and then you had to go look up a word. Oh yeah, right.

That was your education.

Oh dude,

it was like, I'm doing my job as a parent.

The fucking apartment was sinking. Someone had stolen our balcony again. Everything was just terrible. a fucking nightmare. Like, you wouldn't even go to sleep at night because you were too busy crying and fucking—

Oh, that's awful.

It was fucking— it was horrible. It was, it was, yeah, right? It was— you were either wetting the bed or crying, but there was always some liquid that was leaving your body because it didn't want to be involved anymore.

It wanted out. It's like it wanted out of the prison.

It's like, you have to stay, I don't, motherfucker. Yeah, people stole our balcony. Look, we talk about this a lot, but there it is. people would— holy

shit,

people would steal our balcony.

No, no, but did somebody come in and actually steal, like pull off your balcony?

Yeah, they did. What do you freaking mean? That's what it means.

Well, I know, but I thought— sorry, we're putting a new one.

No, no. Oh no, no.

And then you made it look like somebody stole it. Somebody actually came in and stole your balcony?

Yeah, many times, dude. And so

it was just—

yeah, because people would steal the wood and use it for stuff down the street, so you'd have to fucking then pull And somebody one time built a fucking baby crib out of it. And that's the worst. You're like, we want it back. And the fucking babysitter—

Oh dude, you can't steal it from the baby now. Oh, did you actually see a baby crib made out of your wood knowing it was your wood?

100%.

That's fucking crazy.

That's the coolest shit of all time because it was good wood.

Yeah, well obviously because it was new wood because you had to keep replacing it.

But this part of the apartment was sinking all the time, and so we'd be at dinner and like It was just a nightmare. And Mom would like— it would be absolutely miserable. Mom would be like, I'm gonna go lay out in the yard. And it was just like everything was just a fucking nightmare.

But anyway, Louisiana is tough, man. My assistant, who loves you by the way, is absolutely in love with you. Erica. Shout out to Erica.

Oh, I'm glad that it went Erica. I thought it was going to stop at the C.

No, it's Eric. Eric loves you. My assistant Eric. My assistant Bob loves you. No, Erica loves you, but she's from Louisiana.

Oh, nice.

She's tough. She lives in, in, uh, in Atlanta, but she's Uh, she's tough. And, uh, I found— like, I went to jail in, in, uh, in Louisiana. Louisiana's tough.

And what were the charges?

I don't know. Drunken fighting? No. Oh, obstruct? No. It was— it was— what do you— when you get in the way of something that the cops are doing, what do they call it? Oh yeah, there you go.

Josh Brolin and Tiger Woods went to jail together.

Tiger Woods, bro? What's the matter with you?

I didn't know. I figured you hang out with fancy people sometimes.

Um, that's you.

Even, even scroll up, let me see. Josh Brolin and Jeffrey— Jeffrey Wright, sorry. Shreveport arrested 2 actors and several, several crew members involved with the, with the latest movie in Hollywood South. The star of Oliver Stone's film W early this morning. At least they put the star of it.

Thank God, right? At least I'm worth something other than just a mugshot.

Did you get arrested? Was this a frequent thing?

Yeah, fairly.

Was it? Did you feel like you had to get— or like, because if like if you go party, does it feel like you have to get it? Because I never had that kind of stuff really.

No, I know you didn't because you didn't have the face for it.

Yeah, yeah.

You had too nice of a face.

Yeah. Oh, wow.

I just had a face you wanted to arrest.

Oh, did it?

Yeah. I think so. I think so. No, I don't feel like I did that. No, that was more my mom coming out. My mom would get arrested too.

Oh, really?

Yeah, but she'd usually get out of it.

Yeah.

Like, there's a, there's a story about my mom where she got pulled over and the guy was like not talking to her really. And she always sped. She always went 100 miles an hour. That, that was the number she loved was 100. So she was 100 miles an hour and get pulled over and This guy's giving her a ticket, and she took the ticket— like, they used to have those— oh, he's a motorcycle cop, so they had the whatever, that leather thing with the ticket inside, and handed it to her. And she took it and she threw it out in the middle of the freeway. Oh. And then he stopped traffic, went out and picked it up, came back, handed it to her again. And she liked that. She liked that kind of, like, silent, strong type. And they became really close friends. He was over at the house all the time. So where she would— where one would've gone to jail, jail mucho. She got— she would have too, but she just was so charming she got out

of it. It makes me realize there's something— some women like that thing of like—

That's what I mean.

I never realized that till recently. Some girls like it when it's just like—

They love it.

Fuck you.

Fuck you. I think, I think that's coming around too. I mean, this is going to get me in trouble, but I think there's something that's like things have been so sketch and scary and and paralyzed that I'm starting to see that kind of come back.

Oh, we're getting out of the wheelchair, brother. You feel me?

We're getting out of the wheelchair.

Stella got her legs back. We got this shit.

Um,

yeah, you had, uh, you had fame at a young age. Like, how do you go from this Cheeto Rats kind of energy, right? How do you go We don't want to talk about it.

No, I don't know.

Because how do you go from that to becoming like a—

No, I think it's fascinating because when I look at pictures of like me in The Goonies, which never should have happened because I had missed 36 out of 56 days of school. I got in a fight with my mom. She kicked me out of the house in Santa Barbara. I went to go live on the couch with my dad and he was in an apartment with his girlfriend in LA. So it was like me going, I got to get my shit together. What do I do? My dad's an actor. Maybe I'll try that. Maybe I'll do that and martial arts. You always got to get into martial arts when you're getting your shit together. Everybody, every kid. You know what I mean?

That's Fist Foot Way. That's what the movie's about, I think.

That's it. That's it. And then, so, yeah, I tried to get my shit together and I went on auditions. I went on so many auditions, dude. And I heard so many people say basically versions of, you suck. Like, definitely don't do this. Don't pursue this. Like, the martial arts thing sounds pretty good for you.

What were you good at? Were you— were you—

What? What?

Were you good at auditioning? Auditioning is hard.

No, I just said I was horrible at it, bro. I was horrible. I'm

so bad at my job, dude.

I was horrible. Not only was I horrible then, but I was always horrible at it. And there was a girl, and I've said this many times, but Meryl Poster, who was third in charge at Miramax, said when she— when that thing was still going on, she said the worst— she did it publicly— the worst auditioners we ever saw, we ever experienced in our kind of history at Miramax were Benicio del Toro and Josh Brolin.

Let's go!

So there's some positive in that somewhere.

Yeah, well, there's something—

You look at Benicio and you go, he's great.

Yeah. And there's some way that obviously that, that doesn't define everything. thing. Because yeah, I think like that auditioning is so hard, dude. One time I went in— this is the freaking most embarrassing story— I'd stayed up watching, um, Shirley Temple movie, right?

All right.

And I went in and auditioned, and they're like, you have to sing something. And I can't sing at all, right? I can sing— I mean, I can do Christmas carols and maybe a couple of mild stuff, or maybe some early Um, Bush, but, um, Guns

N' Roses.

Yeah, I can do some Guns N' Roses, but that's imitational. But it's like, I can't really sing. So I sang, um, a song of Shirley Temple's right in this fucking audition room. And I think they're like,

really?

Yeah.

What, like you chose it?

Yeah.

They were like, can you sing? And you go, actually, I prepared a Shirley Temple song.

Yeah. And I didn't know what else to do because I— it was more like a, like a, um, Um, uh, it's almost like reading a poem or singing like Christmas. It was— it didn't feel like real singing or something, you know? Um, and I, and I remember at first I started and it was not going good, and I was like, can you guys open the window? Because I was just so fucking scared. So they try to open this window and it didn't open. It was like one of those businesses where they just want you to—

Another awkward moment.

Yeah, be in pain in there. Like, they're over there looking at the fucking thing and they already know I have no chance at this thing, dude. Right, right. And then I was like— and so then I did it again, and I just like, God, I remember going home and being like, I just can't fucking live like this, man.

It's horrible. There's no worse feeling when I know people who audition even today, and I'm like, I wouldn't— worse— I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy.

Yeah,

I just— I mean, you— and you think it's something like— so we'll go back, but like, I— so after The Goonies, I didn't really— there was Flirting with Disaster in the middle, There was a movie that I did that I was really lucky to get, and the only reason I got it is because David O. Russell demanded that I was the guy. But Miramax said no, he's a guy who should have hit and didn't. So I spent 22 years kind of in the ethers after The Goonies, right?

Because Goonies, you— that book, that was one of the biggest at the time. Was it one of the biggest things that ever happened?

Yeah.

Okay.

You mean to me or just period?

I think just period.

Just period.

Was it? It was. Yeah, because I remember, like, when did Goonies come out? out? Was it '80s? '85, right? I remember of course watching it when I was a kid, but sometimes when you're a young kid, you're not exactly sure if something came out 4 years ago or it just came out. But, um, yeah, it was one of the craziest. It was like everybody impersonated everything and everything was related to it. And like you would have like— yeah, it was Halloween costumes and everything.

Yeah.

Um, so that was one of— so it was one of the biggest things that happened. So at that time, were you drinking and partying at that

Yeah, bro, that's what— that's the thing. No, no, no, I'm not saying that like a pot. But bring up that last picture that you just— that you just had. Like, I look at that and then I think I'm lying. Do you know how, like, if you look back at your stories and all that kind of stuff and you're talking about your mom and you're talking about how they stole your balcony and all that kind of stuff, and then you think, am I lying? Did I make a bunch of shit up? Because when I look at that dude, I go, you look I look pretty healthy and young and pretty innocent and naive.

Oh, like, are the stories in your head not real?

Are not real. Because, because that guy— I don't see what I know was the trajectory from 8 to that.

I see.

Is super gnarly, you know. I'm not gonna say it on here, but the shit that I was doing before that moment was— I should have been here already.

Really?

Oh yeah, for sure.

You were partying pretty hard?

Super hard. Like, like some of those guys had already died at that point. So anyway, then you get this, then you go out and you'd be with your dad, and then you go on the 350 auditions and people are saying, you know, it's not for you. And then you get a role and it's that role, and you show up and you've never done it and you don't know what you're doing.

So that was one of your first roles, Goonies?

The first role.

No way, dude. I didn't— sorry, I didn't know this.

The first time ever in front of a camera. I ruined the first day of shooting because I couldn't stop laughing.

Wow.

Couldn't stop ruining the whole fucking thing.

Because you were laughing because it all seemed ridiculous?

No, it was just like nerves, like nerves coming out sideways and shit. Action. You know, just fucking it all up. And I remember Spielberg coming up and saying, We need to, we need to get through this. You need to just take a breath and let's just get through this. I'm like, oh, oh yeah, okay, good. But then, yeah, and then I did Thrashing after that, which became like one of the worst movies I ever did, to me at that time.

Thrashing?

Yeah, it was a skateboarding movie.

Oh,

and

then that makes sense though.

There you go. Like, look at that quintessential '80s movie.

Oh my God.

Yeah,

you look like Will Ferrell in that.

I do.

This is like Will Ferrell and a young David Spade, I feel like, in this, in this picture right here, dude.

My assistant Bob loves you. I mean, that's the thing, it's like it's a guy story.

That's great. You know, it actually— that, that picture looks like Val Kilmer, really.

It kind of does, doesn't it? What, me or her?

You do. Oh yeah, different stages of—

different stages of Val. That was Val later.

Thrashed. It was just Val finding himself.

So that kind of became like— Tony Hawk was in that. Were you ever a skater? No. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Tony Hawk was in that and like Tony Alva and all these famous skaters, Christian Hosoi. And this became way later like a cult film.

Got it. That's what I was going to ask, if it became like a cult classic.

Yeah, but I saw it and I was so bad in it. I was like, I like— my acting is actually like actively hurting people at this point. Like, go figure this out.

But what do you— were you— did you think that it was because you'd had a better director the first time? No. Or could you even ever do it and you just didn't realize it, maybe?

But you're asking questions that I couldn't even— because I hadn't been around. It's not like I grew up in the business. I grew up in LA and all, so I didn't know. All I know is I— is I sounded stupid to me.

Oh.

And then I had no voice control, which I realized later is like part of it. And you kind of, you know, you're like, Chrissy! I love you! And you're like, ew, you know? And then, and then I went to New York and I studied and I did all that stuff. And then it kind of changed it. I met this guy Anthony Zerbe. I started doing a bunch of theater. I started doing all that stuff. It's boring, but yeah, I took it seriously.

Hmm.

So I had 22 years of taking it seriously because nobody was interested until really I did No Country. Yeah. And then No Country kind of changed shit. Kind of. Yeah, definitely.

Good for you, dude.

Yeah, thanks, man.

Sticking it out and still believing in yourself. I bet— were there times where you were like, did you even— did you get another job ever? Like, was there a time where you're like, I can't— well, I guess you had to get a job at some point, something else. Or were you— were you able to just financially take care of yourself?

Yeah, I was a landscaper for a year.

Oh, fuck yeah.

And then I was— when I was 30, I was— I traded full-time. I learned how to trade from a guy named Brett Markinson.

Trading what? Cards?

Stocks.

Oh, stocks. Yeah.

Stocks. Wow. And I was— I was really good at it.

You were a stock trader?

For almost 5 years, full-time.

Were you on the floor with the tickets and stuff?

No, bro. Oh, that would have been great.

Yeah.

You know, no, I was at home with 1, 2, 3 screens and 4 tabs per screen.

Oh, you were day trading?

I was day trading. I was swing trading and day trading.

What's the most that you ever made, like, in a— in a—

The most I made— more money. I'd put it this way. I made more money in those 4 years, really. It was 5 years, but within 4 years than I had made in 20 years acting. Damn. But I didn't really make hardly anything acting. You know, there was— I didn't because I wasn't really working. I mean, think about it, dude. And it's not— and I don't mean to insult anybody out there, but if you think about like— and I think it's okay. to say this. No Country— I made— how much do you think I made from No Country? I had been doing it already for 22 years, 20-whatever years. How much do you think I made?

They paid you to be in No Country for Old Men?

You know a little bit about somebody being paid or not being paid. How much do you think they paid?

I think that they paid you up front— I bet that they paid you $200,000.

That's pretty good. That was a good guess. $100,000. $100,000. So I cleared what, $30,000?

Yeah.

That's not considered a great year.

Nuh-uh.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

30.

Yeah.

And then I did American Gangster after that because I auditioned while I was doing No Country. I sent in a tape and my son, who was 16 at the time, played the Denzel part. We sent in that tape. That's pretty cool. That's the last audition I ever did. And

that was it?

I think so. I think so. I think maybe there was one other

offer only. I love that. And you have to celebrate that stuff. It's cool.

Oh, fuck, that's cool.

It's so cool, dude.

Especially the fucking hurting people with my auditions. Um, but yeah, anyway, that's that.

And so the day trading went good?

The day trading I loved, man.

But you had to give it up to act.

But it was day— but that's the kind of like, to, to go back and like say how you're defined in your way and like, oh, this is how I'm defined, or it's fighting or it's drinking and all that kind of shit. And then you start— things start to get revealed that you're good at. You're like, wow, I could have developed this shit when I was young, given the opportunity, or maybe given somebody to direct you, a mentor or a parent or something like that. Like, you're actually good at this shit. You're not a total dumb shit,

right?

Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. There was nothing—

There was nothing to suggest that there was anything other than a hollow shell of alcohol.

Yeah. Oh, dude, sometimes it's like if I had somebody just to help lay down some banks, that's it. But instead I spend my whole life just like literally just trying to keep the water in with my fucking hands. It feels like that's

it.

And it just feels impossible sometimes, but not all the time. And over time it gets better.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, when did you start to get sober? When was that like journey for you?

Quickly, I'll tell you. 19. I'd gotten busted for something and I had to get out of it. So at 19? At 19. And I was doing a little— I did A little bit of— I did jail time, but then I stayed sober for 3 and a half years. Then I went back out very actively, like consciously. And then I— Like, I'm gonna go out there. Oh yeah. Like, I'm— I miss that. Yeah, I'm gonna go do that.

Crazy heart kind of.

Yeah, but young, young. I was what, 23 when I went back out? 22, 23.

What were y'all drinking out there then?

I don't know what we were— look at you all into it. Oh, you're like, what would you all drink? And did it taste good? What were we drinking back then? I was drinking— what was I drinking? I was drinking White Russians. Why was I drinking White Russians? Wow. But it's for a reason. It's like, why? Are we trying to be fancy? No, it wasn't fancy. It was for— I don't know. Yeah, maybe that was it. Maybe. When did it come out? When did that movie come out? Maybe that was it. And then I end up working with him twice. So there you go. When? '98. '98. No, it wasn't that.

But it could have been.

But it could have been, dude. There was some unknown connection.

We went to Santa Barbara and got to hang out with Jeff one day.

No way. Yeah. Oh, he's the best.

It was only 2 months ago, dude. It was one of the— bro, one of the coolest times of my life. He has a freaking ChatGPT friend.

No.

Yeah, dude.

That he talks with?

Yeah, Gary's like, Gary, what? And he's so—

Of course he does.

Bro, he had me talking to Gary. Really? Like, the dude. Dude is on chat.

So what does he do, ask him questions? He asked him like therapy questions? All kinds of stuff.

He's like, tell him about our wife, Gary. And he just— he had me locked in, bro. It was just me, him talking to his computer. Then he made his computer make up a song about us hanging out. It was crazy.

That's great.

But it was so cool. Uh, but yeah, Bridges was nice, dude. You know what he said? He's great, dude. He sent me a nice picture that he drew for me.

Yeah, of course.

And he mailed it and he said we can get some soup when I come

Yeah. Soup, just randomly.

Yeah.

He could— 'cause he can say whatever he wants, and it works.

Yeah, he can.

Even with that voice. He was always making fun of my voice, you know, in Thrashing, but he, like, somehow made that voice cool. Hey, man.

Yeah, yeah.

How's it going, man? Yeah. It's good to see you, man. Yeah. You're like, how did you make that cool? That's so not cool.

I do—

I love him, man. I worked with him twice.

Oh, that's so cool. Twice.

He's the fucking best.

Bro, it was— that was one of the coolest days ever. Just getting to just sit around with him, enjoy some moments, talk about some different stuff. Talked about like relationships and Buddhism. Yeah, a little bit of Buddhism. He had his buddy who had written a book. Um, that was pretty cool. And then he talked about he was in recovery too. He was— he'd been in some recovery rooms.

Yeah.

So we talked about that a little bit, and we talked a lot about Crazy Heart, man.

Yeah, did you? Yeah, because you love that movie.

I love it.

I do too.

God,

do you know the guy who, who made the movie, who's the director? Oh man, sober dude, um, which is okay to say, I think. Scott, Scott, Scott Cooper. Jesus, man. Sorry, Scott.

No, dude, bro, that song in there, The Weary Kind.

Yeah. Oh, it's just so good, everything about it. And who— wait, wasn't Colin Farrell in it? Colin Farrell came up at the end and he sang a song at the end.

No.

Yeah, dude, was Colin Farrell in that movie? You're our ChatGPT. Jeff Chat— what was his name? Gary. Gary to Jeff. Yeah,

yeah,

dude. Yes, Gary, I got it.

Hey, Gary.

Paul Herman. Pee-wee Herman.

Pee-wee Herman.

Pee-wee Herman. Paul Herman. No, Paul Herman was in the Scorsese movies. Paul Herman. Paul Herman was the boyfriend of my first wife when I met her before we had our first 2 kids.

Dear God.

Just keep going through the internet and I have some connection with every single thing that you bring up.

Oh, dang. Yeah,

dude.

Paul Herman.

Paul Herman was great.

Robert Duvall. He played the bartender in it that helped him get sober. That's right. Dude, that movie was so—

It was so good, man.

So good. And then he

was so good. But you know what? I remember seeing Jeff. I hope Jeff is okay with me saying this. I remember seeing Jeff on the circuit, on like the, the promotional circuit during that time that he did Crazy Heart. And he looked— I go, hey, how you doing? He goes, I miss being an underdog. Oh, because he was just going from one thing to the other to the other. And it was like, fuck, that whole thing.

You get ahead of your own skis, I'm sure.

I would imagine, because you do something that people love or that you're lauded for. But I've never had to really deal with that.

Really? It seems like it's kind of getting to that space. Does it feel like—

No.

You don't think?

I don't know.

Yeah,

I don't know. I don't understand my career at all.

Did you ever feel like you knew though?

No. No,

really?

No.

Because I could see Jeff like gets like so busy, you don't kind of don't even know. And then like whatever it was that made you feel special, it feels like you've outsourced it, but you've, you've used it a lot.

Yeah.

And even if you use your gifts a lot, I feel like, um, they— there's something about they They lose their allure to you, I think.

Yeah, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know exactly what you mean.

And so

I bet that also on top of that, like I saw at Santa Monica Bowl, I saw Jeff. That's the last place I saw Jeff. And we're talking and we were at Dylan and we both know Dylan separately.

Bob Dylan.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And, and, and, and, and Dylan. And we were both talking about imagine what it's like being Dylan. Imagine the level of fame that you can't go anywhere without people going, that's a genius. Like, that's Bob fucking Dylan, who's defined eras in the world.

Yeah.

While Jeff and I are having a talk, and maybe somebody's coming up going, I love Lebowski, dude. Fuck yeah. Or people go, No Country. What was up with that dude's haircut?

You know, and Wise Jeff fans are Mexican, it seems like, because we're

in Santa Barbara. Oh, that's a good point, bro.

Crazy hard, bro.

Oh, I loved you in Milk. Leche, bro.

You fucking played Harvey Milk, didn't you?

Yeah, you played— I don't know. I didn't, bro.

You were Harvey Milk.

I wasn't Harvey Milk.

Sean Penn, wasn't it?

Was it? It was Sean Penn.

He's pretty incredible, dude.

He's amazing. He's amazing. That movie— I saw that movie recently.

Did you ever get to meet the guy that played My Red Foot or whatever? You know what I'm talking about?

My Left Foot?

My Left Foot.

My Red Foot, I like. My Red Foot. That's the guy that got that rash.

Oh yeah, it was the guy— it was either him or it was that—

no, Daniel Day-Lewis.

Yes, dude.

God, I love talking to you, man. You know nothing about the movie industry.

Yeah, yeah, I don't know a ton about it, man.

No, no, no, I'm not— I'm not blaming you. I'm saying it's amazing. It's amazing because you, like, you're talking about life Yeah, I'm talking about like, oh, you're here and we're going to talk about the movie industry all the time. It's like, when, when you had Neil deGrasse Tyson in here, how was that?

It was cool because I think some people like have thoughts like he has different views. Like, I think he thinks men can be pregnant and stuff like that or whatever, but I don't care. Some of that, sometimes I don't care about like things like that. Like, I want to talk to him about space. Yeah. And I want to hear his voice. You want to?

Yeah. Yeah.

And so sometimes for me, it's like sitting and just listening his voice for a couple of hours and, and just seeing if I can, like, I don't know, just have some nice thoughts with him or something.

Yeah.

Sometimes it's just about, like, spending time.

Yeah.

So that was pretty cool. And he's like, did you know? You know? And he just fucking— he kind of seems like some— like, I don't even know what he seems

bigger than life.

He seems like Father Time's, like, thick son.

Father Time's thick son.

Yeah, that's exactly— it's like if Father Time had a thick son that went and did his own shit, like, his space shit. And his dad's like, bro, don't be doing all the space shit. And Neil's like, I'm doing the space shit.

I'm doing it. I don't give a fuck what you say. I'm going out on my own.

Yeah. And he also, dude, and he also like, he went out but with like a hat, like, um, he just has this like kind of timeless— I can't even explain it.

Yeah, no, that's what, that's what I got when I met him. He came up to me and he was like, hey man, I'm a big fan. I just wanted to say hello. And I was like, oh, nice to meet you. It's great. And then I'm talking to him. I don't recognize him. And then I look down and he's got like one of those like aloha shirts, but it's got planets all over it and like shooting stars. And I'm thinking, what a weird shirt to wear. And I was like, no fucking way. And then it hit me. You're Neil deGrasse Tyson. Yeah, you're Father Time.

Yeah,

but the thick cousin of Father Time.

Yeah, dude.

Fuck yeah. It's so nice.

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I love that shit. And that's why I asked, because things are being revealed now. Forget about like sobriety shit. As an older person, things are being revealed now that I'm more excited about than I've ever been. Like, like quantum physics with him. And then I started like reading his shit and then I started reading, you know, uh, uh, what's his name? Carlo Rovelli. Rovelli. You know, and that Carlo Rovelli was, was, you know, wrote this book on, you know, the basics of quantum physics. And is that him? Yeah. Yeah, man. And these guys are fucking genius. Yeah. And it's so fun following this, like, labyrinth of all this new stuff and being turned on to all this shit that I'm like, this is amazing. This is like, I feel like I'm— this should have happened when I was in school, but it didn't. But it's happening now, and it's happening now. It's so cool.

Do you feel like you've had 2 different lives? A life before sobriety and after? Like, is there something that that did for you that made life even more interesting?

No, I feel like there's been like 28 of them.

Wow.

So there wasn't one or two, or like one and then this happened, then it all changed. Yeah. No. And maybe because I'd been sober a few times. I don't know. I don't know. I don't think it has to do— I think part of it has to do with sobriety, but part of it has to do with people I met. Part of it has to do with setting. Like, I just literally landed from Tucson, Arizona, and I went to Tucson, Arizona for 3 days, and I saw a guy that I've known for 38 years who I met on the set of some series that I was doing out in the middle of nowhere, 45 minutes from Tucson, that nobody ever saw. But I met this fireman out there, and he's still one of my best friends. Wow. So I just went out there and stayed in his little guest room And, and we, you know, and it's just cool shit. And Tucson is fucking weird,

dude. It's weird. I used to live there.

What?

I freaking lived at Colt near Colvin Pantano.

What?

Yeah, dude, I used to freaking—

Wait, did you go to college there?

I went to University of Arizona for one semester, and I went to high school there for one semester too, dude. And they would always have like all the kids, like predominantly Mexican kids at my school, and that means all Mexican kids.

Yeah, that was me too, man.

Dude, it It was me, bro. And I took fucking Spanish class, bro. And they were fucking— they were fucking over on the side fucking doing like— I think some of them were like even painting the classroom and shit. Like, people were fucking worth— like, they got jobs with the school for that hour, or they were all hanging out. I was the only one talking with the teacher. It was like me and the teacher just learning Spanish, and they all knew it, but it was a class that they had. And all the kids would fight in a car wash after, like, you want to box? They say, and they would fucking fight in the car wash.

You know how to do the accent.

And bro, the was the guy, like the short guy, but when he would talk, he would have to get taller, like, so he would look fucking straight up, bro. He'd be like, dog,

you ever see La Sleepy? Sleepy, she dances. Bring up La Sleepy.

I've never seen her.

Yeah.

Oh, La Dormida.

There's La Sleepy. Oh, bro, La Sleepy. Dang. Oh shit, she will dance on Instagram for you. Look at— oh

yeah,

yeah. No, anyway, yeah, uh, Tucson. Yeah,

Tucson's magical.

My, my school, 3— just to say it, Santa Barbara High, 3,500 people, 80% Mexican.

Really?

Oh yeah, 80% Mexican. And it's— and it wasn't like a thing, and it's not a thing, but it was definitely like when I showed up at school, it's like, what you looking at, white boy?

Yeah,

I was like, oh man, it's all good.

What's happening?

What's happening, white boy?

Yeah, that's what they would say. What's up, huevo?

And it would be the, the— it would be the blue pants and then the wife beater and then the shirt with the button up here and open all the rest, and the Vans, the slip-on Vans.

That was cool. It was fun, bro. Yeah, I went to Santa Rita.

Did you?

Yeah, Santa Rita High School. And they would have— the alarms would go off, they would have some sort of gang issue all the time. And so the alarms go off, we have to lay down. I remember laying down at lunch and having to eat my cheeseburger just laying there.

It wasn't about like earthquakes and shit, shootings.

It was just like violencia, you know,

violence.

But it was a fucking—

You ever see 2 Mexican chicks fight?

I don't know if I did,

but it's not nothing I've ever seen in my life, including Tyson boxing matches, that is that violent.

Really?

Oh, bro. Yeah, just went at it because

they get it done.

Hair pulling, punching, nails.

That's what we need.

That's what we need. We need that back.

Yeah, we need that back.

Do you know Dana pretty well?

Yeah,

I know Dana pretty well.

I do know Dana.

Yeah, I know Dana through motorcycling. He loves Harleys and I love Harleys. Does he? Yeah, loves.

Is that one of your, uh, hobbies?

Like, my thing is I have a group of guys and I go to these long pulls, 1,200-mile pulls or whatever. And then Dana does it with newer bikes, but he has, you know, his group of guys and he goes out and we talk.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Oh yeah, yeah.

He's been real good to me about just, uh, yeah, just welcoming me into that group over there, just letting me be around their group. Yeah, and, um,

that's cool.

I do. I, I mean, that's been one of the gifts of my life is being associated with, I think, the people there and the, the getting to see the fighters inspired by a lot of those guys, you know. It's so fascinating. I do.

Yeah, me too.

At first I didn't.

Yeah, me too. When it first happened,

it's too

much. I was like, this is not gonna work.

It was crazy, dude. It was the same people that were like breeding dogs and shit would have like a VHS— yeah, they'd have a VHS tape. The same guy that was like saying, you could fuck my sister, bro, or whatever, like that guy would be watching it on the weekend. He'd be like, these people are going to Hades, or whatever, you know? Like, it

was— Seriously though, it just wasn't gonna work. And then it got better. got more interesting and more interesting, and then it started overwhelming boxing, which was crazy.

Oh, the journey of it all has been crazy. But in the beginning, yeah, I mean, when you saw this, you were like, what the fuck is—

I mean, look at that. What's happening? Is this— is this a— is this heavyweight? And what happened to the guy? Did he deflate?

It just seems like— I'm trying to think what happened.

And look, no gloves, bare knuckle.

And then now we've come all the way around back around a bare knuckle with Mike Perry. And What a great— what amazing to watch Mike Perry's journey where he like, he was in UFC beloved by people just for wearing all of his heart on both of his sleeves and just like, and but couldn't, he would always just go straight at the guy and get hit a million times. But then he created this other outlet for, and it just like, I don't know. So

unreal.

So many great stories. I mean, Nick turned me on, our producer Nick's the one who kind of turned me on to UFC. And we had Tate Fletcher in and then we had, I

know Tate. Yeah,

he's a great guy.

Tate, really well.

And then Dustin Poirier came on and then he and I became friends. And then just like David Spade took me to a UFC fight and then, and then since then, yeah, we've gotten to go and now they're letting me even work on the ringside and doing like a—

Like commentating.

Yeah, but it's like a just a casual commentating, like,

yeah,

just throwing

out

shit. Yeah, just me watching the fights with like Dean Thomas. So if you ever come, you have to be a guest. We had Anthony Kiedis last night. time Drew Brees came and was a guest, dude. Drew Brees, who like, like, yeah, he came and was a guest. Just like some moments like that. Gaethje came, Rogan was just like, none of that matters. But just to be able to sit there with them that we all have this thing in common.

It's amazing.

So cool.

It's amazing. It's nice to have the through line. That's what I'm saying about the motorcycles. And, you know, it's like you have the through line, man. then you have this interest, you have this shared interest, and you're like, this is fucking bitchin'. Yeah. And yeah, the UFC stuff is huge for me and always has been. What, what was the last fight? I haven't been to a fight in a long time. The last fight I went to was when Holly Holm lost to Miesha Tate.

Yeah,

that was Nate Diaz. When Nate Diaz won or lost to Conor McGregor.

Oh wow.

Connor, what submission by whom? Oh, by Nate. So Nate Diaz won and Holly Holm lost.

That was a long time ago. Yeah,

that was a while ago. That was the last fight that I was at, and I saw Joe there and all that.

Oh yeah, so it's just so much fun, dude.

It's so much fun.

And all the people that Dana has working around him— Craig Borsari.

Yeah.

Um, Nicole, Amber— just like, there's so many people there. And now when I see them, like, I just Like, it's family.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say. It really feels like family.

You have— I do want to make sure that we talk about— you have a new project coming out called Whalefall.

Yes, sir. What do you want to talk about?

Well,

have you seen it? No,

I haven't seen it. They won't allow me to watch it.

No, I don't know. I think I knew that.

And that's okay.

Yeah. Whalefall. Austin Abrams. It's, it's bitchin'. I mean, it really is like a word that I can use that you understand. It's one of these movies. It's— there's a book written by Daniel Krauss who's become a really close friend, who stayed in our house for a couple weeks finishing his last novel. He just won the Pulitzer for the novel that he did after this, which is called Angel Down. I read this while I was doing— while I was working with Ridley in Italy on, uh—

Ridley Scott?

Yeah, with The Dog Stars that just came out. And I was reading this book while I was doing that movie, and I remember getting to the end of the book and I slowed it down, which I hadn't done for a long and slowed it down 'cause I didn't want it to end. And then it ended, and I put the book on my chest, and I fucking sobbed. Like, when was the last time I've done that?

Of what? You mean Whalefall?

Whalefall. When I read the book. And then I didn't even read the script. I said, I'm in. I'll do it. And, you know, it's not like— it's playing the dad of Austin Abrams, who goes— the dad dies. Austin Abrams goes out to try to find his remains, knowing where he went down. He jumped out of a boat, went down.

Don't tell me everything.

No, no, no. I won't tell you everything. He gets swallowed by the whale. whale. And then, God, and you're like, how do you do a movie where a dude spends 80% of the story? How do you write a book or do a movie where the guy spends 80% of the time in a whale?

In a whale.

And it's fucking really good. Wow. Like, and I'm pretty, I'm pretty honest about when I see a movie, I go, yeah, we missed a little bit.

Yeah, you said Thrasher was bad.

Yeah, yeah.

It came along though.

It did. And then, and then I learned not to say shit's bad.

Wow.

Because somebody comes up and says, hey, man, you know, my parents were junkies and this, and I watched that movie, and I found skateboarding, and skateboarding became my— skateboarding saved my life. And I go, okay, so I'll never say, you know, hey, were you in Thrash? And I go, yeah, that movie sucked. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like, why do you put that on there? That's not their experience. So Whalefall doesn't suck. Whalefall is really good. The directing's really good. The acting— Austin Abrams is amazing. He was in Weapons with me.

Bring up a picture of Austin Abrams. Dude, I got to meet freaking Austin Butler not long ago. Have you ever met him?

Yeah, I did Dune with him.

You did?

I did.

Dude, I have to fucking watch that.

I did Dune with him. Yeah.

That's him?

Yeah, that's him. He looks a little skinny there, but if you look to the left, he looks a little more full-faced.

Yeah, he also looks a bit like—

That looks a little like you.

Really?

No. What about that one?

No, he looks like Timothée Chalamet.

You didn't see— you didn't like Timothée Chalamet? You think so?

Chalamet, maybe, dude. That's who he looks like. Oh God, bro. And I'm— no shade, Austin.

No shame.

And also, to even look close to Timothée Chalamet is pretty good. Yeah, but that's cool, bro.

Timothée's kind of the tip-top of it all, right?

Timothée's a neat guy.

Yeah. You haven't seen Dune?

I haven't seen— oh, I will tell you this, I tried to watch it and the freaking audio was bad on the television I was watching.

Oh, seriously? So you can't do that because the audio is like everything in that movie. So Dune 1, Dune 2, Dune 3.

Oh, fuck.

Sicario. Have you seen Sicario?

Is that with Marlon Brando?

No, that's with me and— wait, who?

I'm gonna be quiet.

Benicio del Toro.

The other worst actor. They

put the other worst actor. Yeah. Emily Blunt. That's a good movie, dude. Sicario. Yeah.

Yeah, I'll put it on stuff to consume. I have a list of things to consume in my—

You know I'm an actor. Yeah, that's what I do.

Sorry, what do you do?

I heard you were sober.

I don't know. I'm sorry, dude. Some of this stuff's good. Okay, good. Sorry, dude. Yeah, yeah, I know a lot of stuff.

I know you do. Okay, smart dude.

Thanks, dude.

You are. Um, oh, there's another one. Thanks for bringing up another Only the Brave.

Only the Brave with Miles Teller, dude.

And he's Jeff Bridges.

Oh wow,

there's Jeff.

Miles is a good dancer. What?

Miles is a good dancer. Yeah, he is. How do you know that?

He just dances to the beat of his own drum. I've seen him at places, him dancing, and sometimes I used to go up and talk to him if I saw him. I mean, Miles and I get along well and we're buddies, we'll text and stuff and chat about the fights. Yeah, but now if I see him dancing, I just stay in an I admire it.

Yeah, no, I do too, because you can't dance, right?

Not like him.

No, I can't dance.

He can enjoy himself.

Yeah,

I always had a tough time enjoying myself. Does that make any sense?

No, it does. It makes perfect sense because I had the same thing. Like, I look like an idiot right now.

Yeah,

and imagine doing it on film. Oh, where they go, hey, you're gonna do this dance, and everybody goes, oh,

too scary.

That sucks.

Too scary.

Josh looks like a Neanderthal trying to dance. That's not cool. I'm like, no, I can't do it. I can't do it. And then Miles does it and you go, hey, that's how it's done.

It can be done. Yeah, he just— and he does his own way. Yeah, yeah. I admire that he's just able to be such a— in a free space.

Yeah. Um, he's a good actor too.

Yeah, dude, he's good.

Really good.

He's really good. He's so entertaining. Um, oh, what, what about the book made you sob at the, at the end? Was it just the ending or was it something?

No, I think it was the father-son relationship because the father in the book is super hard on the son, and the son rejects it in a major way. And then when he needs— what he needs in order to hopefully survive is exactly what the father taught him. Oh. Do you know what I mean? So it's not like the father was just being a dick to be a dick. It's just the way that came out that seemed dickish. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So then, and then you realize, ah, the dad actually cared and it actually meant something. And maybe somehow the father even knew intuitively that he was gonna need it.

That's crazy.

That was cool to me. That's a good writer to me. Like somebody who you're just reading this kind of surface thing and you're like, yeah, there's a really cool story. And then somehow somebody reaches inside you and just fucking grabs your heart and fucking squeezes it.

Surprise, motherfucker.

Surprise, motherfucker.

I'm not even a doctor. That's right, dude. Yeah,

yeah.

Your dad— and your dad was an actor?

My dad is an actor.

Is your dad— sorry.

He's still alive.

Thank God.

Yeah, thank God. Thank God. No, he's still— he's 86 and he's, he's killing it. He's doing well.

Well, James, you have a nice son. I'll say that to you. Was your dad— your dad was famous when you were growing up?

He, he fluctuated, man. He did a show called, uh, fuck, Marcus Welby when I was a kid. So we were— my parents were super poor, and they both come— my dad was kind of middle-class family, my mom was super poor family from Texas. And then, and then he got this fucking role on TV that became like the Friends of that generation. It was the number one TV show for like 5 years.

Really?

Yeah. What was it called? Marcus Welby. Yeah, look at— that's him. And then he fluctuated. He did a movie called Amityville Horror, like, maybe 20 years after that, or maybe 10 years after that. So he would have money and then not have money and then have money and not have money. And he, you know, like normal actor, man.

Yeah.

Normal creative profession. It's like, you know, you have books that sell and books that don't sell. You have movies that do well, you have movies that don't do well.

So you saw this growing up. Do you think that's why you ended up on bikes?

I think it's part of it. I think it's part of it.

Yeah, sometimes you—

But my mom rode a Harley. He didn't ride a Harley. My mom rode a Harley.

Fuck yeah.

With the monkey, which was probably unsafe.

Reggie?

Reggie. Reggie rode on the back.

Dude, how could I have a suspended license? How in the fuck do you right now? How do you get a license?

Oh wait, you have a specific— Yeah, I had one.

Did you?

Yeah, 17, 18. 16, 17, 17, 18.

You got suspended?

Yeah.

Yeah. They'll give it back. They don't like to sometimes.

They don't like to give it back.

They don't, and they shouldn't, but they'll give it back, dude. But what about— so if your dad was famous, was it weird? It was fame like this weird thing that you felt like, um—

I still feel it, man. I mean, look, if we— But

did you feel like you're like— was your— was it a big thing to your dad, or was the acting a big thing? Is that a weird question?

Yeah, but it was my mom. Like, I don't mean to demean my dad, but my mom would call studios heads when my dad didn't get something and say, are you stupid? Yeah. Have you seen my husband? Like, he's 6'4, super handsome. Like, why would you use this other guy when you could use him? So they were all talking about my mom because my mom, like I said, had no filter. She was everything.

That's amazing.

So she would just call and just, you know, and, and they would talk to each other and be like, have you gotten a call from this girl? Like, oh yeah, I talked to her it last week. And, and my dad— not all his jobs, but he got some jobs from that, you know what I mean? Yes. But fame was like, uh, I remember my dad doing really well at some point, and I— and he would get really irritated with the attention.

With the attention?

Yeah, with the attention, with public attention. Some people eat it up, you know? Do you?

Um, I think there was a time where you were excited about it.

Yeah.

You want people to know who you are.

Yeah.

And then there's a time, like, I think it got to a point where it was kind of— maybe I don't put scary as the word, but, um, you know what I miss? Like, I used to— one thing I even used to like about comedy was if it was a surprise to people.

Yeah.

Because when people don't know that you're— that— or if people haven't seen you—

That's what I mean.

Then you can— you have the opportunity to surprise them with something that you say, and that disappears. So then you have to work in a different space with humor.

Yeah.

And maybe with anything,

which may be cool because you're having to reinvent your own humor. Yeah. So that's cool because that's creative. Yeah. And you have to like redesign this whole thing. But at the same time, it's kind of a bummer because everybody knows you. If you do too many fricking podcasts or too many interviews, people know you so well that what could you possibly do?

Yeah.

On the stage or on the screen that people are like, I had no idea. And I thought you were paraplegic. Yeah,

yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know what I mean?

You're playing Prefontaine.

Exactly.

And dude, I think sometimes you start to like— I don't know, I think there's moments where it's like, I, I don't— like, you don't even like— like, I don't know if it's like you don't even like yourself that you put out there or something, or it's like you want to be something different. I don't know. I don't

know. Yeah.

It's all— I think a lot of it's been kind of interesting. Here's what I do think about it. A lot of times I try not to attach myself to it too much. When I do, that gets kind of like— then I'm really stuck kind of in some ego space.

Yeah.

And I try to, um, just be like, okay, this is an interesting experiment that God kind of has me in. I get to see what this is like to have popularity. I get to see what it's like.

Yeah, I'll experiment with this.

Yes.

I'll experiment my reaction to it. I'll experiment with— yeah, see, that's when it's cool.

Yeah, but it's not like— I don't want it to determine, um, like there were times when I was struggling with sobriety and I didn't even want to talk about it on the podcast.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because,

yeah, because you were struggling with it.

But I, I'm okay with that part, but I didn't want— this is about alcoholism, I think— but it's like I was afraid that, well, what if people respond to that in some way? Hmm. And then my alcoholic mind or whatever starts either relapsing or doing something like that just to get people to then, like, pay attention.

I got it.

It was like, I don't want to— like,

what if I play into this public persona?

Yes.

So they'll keep liking me, or they'll care, or I can surprise them in this way,

right?

I lived on that, man. I lived on the stories that I wouldn't even remember, but I lived on because it made me— it materialized me. It made me seen. It was like, fuck, do you know what you did yesterday? I was like, no, what? Oh. And they were like, dude.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And then you go, oh, okay, that's who I am. Like me talking about my mom now and you're fascinated. I'm like, I'll create my version of that.

Yeah.

And then to not do that, you have to create this other thing. And then, you know, like you, you're obviously really good at what you do and people are like, oh, you're good at that. You're not just good at cocaine. Yeah, you're good at that.

Well, tell me, tell me a little bit more about what you're saying because I'm a little confused on it.

Yeah, I think that fame— what fame can do is define you in a way, and I don't want to be defined. I don't want to be defined as an alcoholic. I don't want to be defined as famous. I don't want to be defined even as an actor. Like, I realize it's what I do.

I don't want to be defined as anything.

As anything.

What is it?

I want to keep discovering shit. I want to keep learning shit. I want to keep surprising myself. If I decided to quit acting tomorrow and I decided to become a full-time trader, if I wanted be a photographer, I want to do this, I want to be allowed to do that. I don't want to be imprisoned by some idea that I've finally been accepted as this one thing, because that's not my goal, is to be accepted. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. As you're saying, I'm thinking about it. I don't want to be defined.

I don't want to be defined.

I don't want you to know who I am because I don't know who I am.

Right. But then what happens when you finally know who you are, or you don't care as much how people perceive you? you. And then you're like, I'm good with that. You know, it's like when— with fame, I'll say there's one thing. If with fame, I've realized this, is that every, every person who looks at me with some kind of an idea that it's elevated, that what I do is elevated, they think that as an actor who's doing well is walking a perpetual red carpet waving at a perpetual audience. Like, you don't do real shit,

right?

Like, you don't change the chicken, like, shavings and with the shit all over it and put it in the bag and then take the bag to the trash yourself,

right? You don't pet the pig, you just eat the pork.

That's exactly right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And you go, no, I don't wanna— I don't want that. I don't want that. And then people do that, and then they start thinking, oh, that's what I got to do as a famous actor. I got to—

I got to overreact.

I got to just eat the pork. Fuck the pig. I don't even want to see the pig. I'm hungry, you know? Can you go do that thing that you do to prepare my—

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And I just don't want to do that, especially in my profession, because I— like your profession, you're a mirror. You throw shit back in people's face and they can laugh at it. They can laugh at their foibles. They can laugh at their, you know, how absurd we are and the shit that we say and the stuff that we do. And I think that actors do the same thing in story. It's like, yeah, you know what I mean?

Yeah. When you see an actor do something that you just can't, and they— or a scene that does something that you can't even—

You don't even know why you're crying. Yeah. You don't know why you're laughing.

Yeah.

You ever done that thing where you're watching a movie and you're like cry laughing? You're like, so I'm moved, but at the same time it's—

Family Man.

Like Family Man? Yeah. Really?

Have you seen that with Nicolas Cage?

Yeah. Yeah, that's old school. That's old school. You love that movie.

I love it.

Yeah, it's good. See, everybody has their thing.

I love that movie.

That's why you can't say like thrashing. You're like, I don't know.

I'm gonna go watch that.

And we have those movies, I have those books, we have those movies, we have those— seeing Eddie Murphy for the first time. I remember when I was in my room in Santa Barbara and I had this little TV, this little— like, and with the, with the, uh, the antenna.

Oh yeah.

You know, and I'm watching— what was it? Delirious for the first time. I'm like, what the fuck?

Oh yeah.

This is amazing.

Oh yeah, it felt like something new, like you couldn't even get into the world, dude. My— we had— my— we had a TV like that, and I would stay up and watch stuff sometimes, and my brother would be like, turn off the fucking TV, or I will fucking hide your legs in your asshole, right? He would say stuff like that because he was creative. But then here's what he would have it do. This is what he would do to me. He'd be like, all right, you can watch it, but you have to fucking keep your eyes closed, dude. And he'd be like— so, so, dude, I would— More creative. Crazy. So I'd have to have the volume on the lowest thing as possible. I would be this close to the fucking— yeah, dude, watching a fucking program while you fucking—

Older brother? Yes, of course.

Well, he tells me he's awake, but really he fucking dozed off a second later, but I couldn't tell because he was like— it was dark in there.

Hilarious. Oh, that's hilarious.

Fuck, stuff like that was so good.

Louisiana, stuff like that is so good. You look back on it, you're like, that was, that was a good time.

That wasn't a bad time. Steal the fucking balcony. We're fucking— we're We were, we were making stories. At least, like, even though I was like, I don't know, there were parts of me that had to come alive so early, I think, because things were so uncomfortable. And I'm glad— I think I'm glad that they were alive. It took me kind of a long time to get there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I had a lot of resistance. How old are you? I'm 46. Yeah, so I'm almost— I'm almost your age, but no, getting close though.

12 years.

You're 12 years older than me?

Yeah.

God.

Yeah,

dude, you fucking look good, you know? And I wish you— yeah, boy, chill, bro. I wish you were a freaking woman. And I don't even know what that means, dude. I got to get some help.

We should just stop it there.

I don't know. We're almost done.

You were a woman. Thank you for joining us. This is the Theo Von Podcast.

Um, I do want to talk about one thing. I want to talk about, like, so I'm going through the steps again right now.

Yeah, right on.

With my sponsor. Yeah. And, um, did you— like, I was just thinking about resentments. Did you ever have yourself as a resentment?

Of course. Oh my God, probably the biggest one.

That's crazy, dude.

Yeah, why? That's come— that's,

that's come up for me. Yeah, I— and somebody said something in a meeting the other day, dude, and they said, um, I'm unacceptable to myself.

Yeah.

And I had never heard those words before.

Yeah.

And it was like, man, that's a lot And I'm not in self-pity. I'm just looking at it.

No, no, no. Just looking

at it. Yeah. But I'm like, dude, that is a lot of,

like— Self-loathing.

I've just— yeah, it's like I'm unacceptable to myself.

Yeah, but, you know, not to—

It's interesting.

It's super interesting. And I heard— and I've told this story before, but I'll tell you a story that I loved, and it shifted something in me. And Tony Hopkins told me this story, right? Who very proudly wears his sobriety on his sleeve. Yep.

My first date.

Talks about it and will be on Instagram or whatever, which I love that Tony Hopkins is on Instagram. Instagram. He's an artist, right? Yeah, he just— he loves— like, it's not even like, you know, Instagram is this thing where you're trying to project some image and that people believe. He doesn't give a fuck.

Yeah,

he's just like, this is me. Oh, and look at now, he's just like wrote all these songs. Like, now he's not even focused on acting. He's like doing these compositions and these philharmonics are doing his music. It's just the coolest human being ever. But he told me He was like, how great is it that we're like this? And I go, what does that mean? He was like, we're just alcoholic, we're just angry, and we're edgy, and we're just dark. And I was like, is that a good thing? Is that like— I've always been like, I always perceived that as like, yeah, that's shitty. And again, and he goes, no, because given no direction and no tools, we create more harm and hurt than normal people, than most people. But given a few tools, we can have a bigger impact than most people, given that we have the drive, that we have the motor. We have the motor of alcoholics. I'm like, fuck yeah, yeah. But I heard that and I thought, this is an 80-year-old guy telling me this shit. You're— that's it.

And he's British as well.

What does that mean?

It just means he was fucking raised with a fucking fucking eating Cadbury eggs and everything over there.

He's Welsh.

He's Welsh?

He's Welsh. Like, like Richard Burton, which the Welsh are different. Are they? Welsh are darker.

Are they?

Yeah, man.

Oh, that's good.

They're like great poets. Dylan Thomas was Welsh.

I gotta study up on them.

Yeah, man. I'll send you a couple books. I'm gonna send you my book.

Will you?

Yeah, see, of course I will. Great. Why don't you just put it up on our

shelf, dude? Okay, good. Um, on that note, I do want to say I, I read somewhere that you were friends with Cormac McCarthy. That you knew him?

Yeah, yeah, I was with him the night he died.

No way, dude.

Yeah, it was me, his son, his ex-wife, and him.

Did he live in Tennessee?

No, he lived in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and I was there working. I was doing a series, and I would come in and see him at his house. I have— I have his typewriter, I have his pool table.

Wow.

His couch, shit that he gave me after, you know. It's cool, it's cool. He was a good dude. Dude, I like the hard guys.

Yeah.

I like the— I like the guys that, like, you, you think that, like, Cormac and the shit that he wrote is so severe and so, you know, but then he was the nicest guy and he's so smart. He's so smart. 20,000 books he left. Wow. Um, when he died and they were archiving his books and he would have— he had like 1,000 books on math or a thou— or or 300 books on whales, you're like, oh, you're a freak. I love that. Talk about not being defined. And plus, that's another guy which I think there was a parallel, even though we didn't talk about it, is that the first until All the Pretty Horses, which I think is his 6th novel or his 7th, that people had maybe bought maybe 1,200 books of each novel. So nobody bought his shit.

Wow.

He kept going. And it's kind of like me as an actor. Like, yeah, I started with The Goonies, which was cool, but then after that it was downhill.

Nobody bought my shit.

Nobody cared. Nobody cared.

All I was singing Shirley Temple.

Yeah, you were. Exactly. That's what I mean.

For free near windows that wouldn't open.

Dude, like, now you're 46 and things are good, you know? It's great.

I know. Sometimes I can't believe God's grace in my life, even just in little moments. Yeah, you know, and when I'm in that space. It's just everything's— oh, it feels okay.

I like what you said earlier, which is just like everything's an experiment. As long as I'm malleable, I'm like wet clay, and I'm like, yeah, good. Oh, that's interesting. Oh, look at that. That's cool.

Yeah,

not like this, not contracting, and not like that, you know? Just like, ah, that's interesting. It's just like it's all kind of fascinating. Going to UFC is fascinating. Getting up and trying to make people laugh is Doing a movie and trying to make it work is fascinating.

Yeah, dude, it's so true.

It's all like human shit.

Yeah. Yesterday I had to do a solo episode of a podcast and I was so scared. And then I was like, dude, I'm gonna have— let me remember why I started this. I can— let me go and try to have some fun. Yeah. Instead of fucking live in this whatever cage I'm fucking always over here welding these fucking bars and screaming through them.

That's cool. You did an episode by yourself?

Yeah, we started this podcast, we did first 100 episodes, it was just me by myself talking, and then we started having friends on and stuff like that.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah, it was fun.

That's cool.

It's been a good journey, dude. Um, it's interesting he had all those books on whales and you ended up— and your new project is called Whalefall.

And I got super inspired by that, and then I wrote a new story that we're going to do in January January called The Fisherman. And then after that, which is like— this is full circle with the rat— then, uh, Jeremy Renner and I, there's a story that's a true story that took place in, uh, Montauk about a guy, 2 guys that went out on a boat fishing in this Montauk fishing community. One guy fell asleep, one dude fell off the boat, and this guy was looking for this guy for 12 and a half hours. And this dude was just like waiting in the water. No way he was gonna survive. No way he was gonna be found. It was like a 200-mile, you know, this radius, and you're just like, there's no way you're gonna find the dude. And he had no floating device. He had no nothing. Dang. And he survived. Fuck. Like a rat. Yeah. 12 and a half hours of swimming in place until he was found right at the last second. He probably was sharks— surrounded by sharks. So I'm going to be the— I'm going to be the rat, and Jeremy's going to be the guy looking for me.

Dude, much easier job Renner has, I'll say that, bro. Taking the easy one.

This guy, I'll do it with Brolin. That sounds fun.

Yeah, you're fucking soaking wet every set.

Yeah, I like the whale stuff though. I like— like, look.

Wow. That's a, uh, lighthouse.

That's the nautical shit.

Did you get that done after that?

I did.

Let's go.

I did.

You— it meant that—

I mean, it meant that much, and it was a guy who had passed that it was— let me see it one more time, man.

You already showed it once.

It was in his honor.

I'm looking at the art, so I'm not looking at your body. Okay, now you're making it different. Oh dude, that's cool, bro. I

mean, it just is what it is, and I don't have to look at it. Everybody else has to look at it, but I know I'm carrying it, and that's all I give a shit about.

Yeah.

It's a good reminder for me. And there's a great word, arete. It's a Greek word that this guy gave me, and it means excellence in everything that you do. Hmm. And then the 5 birds in my family. So that's cool.

That's a family crest?

Experimenting. Experimenting. That's it. Why get a tattoo? I don't know. Why the fuck not?

Yeah. Yeah,

I don't have— I mean, I have these, but I don't really have it. I had all my tattoos removed. Yeah, when I was 30. Yeah, didn't need them anymore. And then this one came, and sure, why not do it?

Yeah,

experiment, man.

I love it. Um,

nice spending time, bro.

You too, dude. Nice to get to catch up. Nice to get to say hello and to spend some time together, man. I've heard you speak before. Uh, yeah, I think it was at Bread and Roses.

Yeah, right on. And we know Laj.

Yeah, we know Laj, dude. He's such a sweet guy.

He is a sweet guy.

I gotta check in with him. Also, I'll text him a picture of us when we're done.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, thanks so much, Josh. Thanks for just being a creative. Thanks for sticking with your art. Uh, that's cool because now you can tell stories that are going to inspire the rest of us. Thanks for telling me about Whalefall and just that it meant something to you because, um, yeah, sometimes it's like you don't know who else, um, is looking for that little piece of connection between Like, or something about a father and a son, and they're going to hear about that and that might be something for them. So, yeah, getting out here today to be a bridge for little moments, that's pretty cool.

Yeah.

So, Josh Brolin, thank you so much, man.

Thank you, brother.

Yep.

Much love.

Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves. I must be cornerstone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found. I can feel it in my bones, but it's gonna take a little time. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found. I can feel it in my bones, but it's gonna take a little time.