Transcript of The Private Equity Veterinary Scam Making You Poorer and Killing Your Pets

Christmas is here. That means you're eating a lot. We are. It's a tough time to get on the scale because the meals keep coming and so does the weight gain. But what if there was a way to eat like you want to eat without getting really fat over Christmas week?

This is an ongoing concern in my house.

A snack that tastes excellent and is healthy. Well, it exists. It's called masa chips. It's part of a growing movement to revive real food, the kind your grandparents eat before snacks were designed in labs. How do they do Well, we'll tell you because it's very simple. Masa chips are made from three ingredients. Only three. Organic corn, sea salt, and 100% grass-fed beef tallow. That's it. This is not some weird Franken cocktail like most big chip brands. Masa chips taste delicious and you feel way better after. You're not bloated, you don't feel mindless. It doesn't take you out of the game for hours. If you want to pick a flavor, we recommend lime. My producer is literally eating a bag right off camera right now. Ready to give it a try? Masachips. Com/tucker. Use the code Tucker for 25% off your first order, or just click the link in the video description, or scan the QR code. If you don't want to order online, you could also buy masa chips at your local Sprouts Supermarket. Stop by and pick up a bag. They're awesome.

Joe, thank you for doing this. I don't think I've ever, I probably have, I don't remember, I don't think I've ever interviewed advertiser. I just want to be clear about why I'm doing this interview. I called you several months ago to ask you if you wanted to advertise on our show because you have a pet-related company. I love dogs. I've got a dog right there. And we had this conversation that was so unbelievably interesting. So interesting, and I haven't stopped thinking about it. I just want to be fully transparent about why I asked you to come. Thank you for doing it. Here's my question. Veterinary care, anyone who owns a dog or cat knows a lot about it. There's no backstop. There's no health insurance, whatever, and you'll pay anything because…

It's your pie.

It's a member of your family, and it's getting really, really expensive. Can you just give us the overview? Why is it so expensive to say, Bring your dog in for his shots? How does this system work?

Just to put a pin in that, veterinary care has has grown 2X the rate of inflation. We talk about inflation- The cost of? Yeah. The inflation is already high. Yeah. Veterinary inflation is double. It's like 2X. That's how crazy it is. Something that was Fifty dollars is literally $100 a year later.

Why?

There's a number of factors. One, there's been a lot of private equity consolidation in this space.

I could have guessed that.

Follow the money. So that just means less supply and the demand is only growing. That's one big factor. The other factor is because it's a cash pay industry, there's really no insurance. Right. Veterinarians, and you'll read this in Trade Magazines, they build their business on production, which is basically selling you more stuff. Yes. So a third of their revenue is dependent on you getting a blood exam, getting X-ray, et cetera. I think, to be clear, the rank and file veterinarians are doing this only because they love pets. I think what's happening is it's the few business owners, and ultimately, like I said, private equity, that are simply raising prices for something that you're going to pay for no matter what. It's scaring people. At Dutch, my company, 50% of our customers say they haven't been to a vet in three years or more.

Oh, I bet that's right.

People are scared that the moment they enter a vet's office, they have a $500 bill or more.

Literally. Let's just back up and go through these one by one. The first is private equity. Private Equity. Private Equity, the model in general, buys small businesses, independent businesses, links them together for efficiencies, for cost savings. This is the idea. This is what they tell you. Do you have any sense of how many vets are owned by private equity now?

I think it's a third to a half, probably.

Wow. Okay, so they've been scooping them up.

Massively. In fact, there's two major companies that are doing it that there was a lawsuit that they're creating a monopoly that was going around.

They'll go to owners of of- Of brick and more Mom and pops.

Yeah, Mom and pops. They're doing this with dentists as well and HVAC and basically every small business in America. They'll buy just a whole bunch of them.

Exactly, yeah.

Then become regional. Yeah.

No, they'll just raise the prices.

Does the care get better?

No. The care gets worse because you're no longer bringing the... They're doing nothing. I don't want to say nothing, but there's really no modernization of equipment or faster care. It's the same thing. They just literally raise the price. It sucks. It's super unfair.

I know. Well, I'm willing to believe there are examples of private equity doing what it says it does, which is to come in and make the business better, better for its customers, better for its owners, better for its employees. I've never seen that ever in any sector, but I believe there must be some time where that happened.

My old veterinarian, I switched to, and I asked for my, which is owned by private equity, and I asked for my medical records. It was 50 pages of PDF with scribble notes. I mean, there's no way that there's anything that you could ever find what's there. I've not seen any better care for pets as a result at all.

Yeah, but greater returns for the investors and for the- Yeah, totally. Okay, so can you be specific about how they raise the prices? You suggested there's an incentive for veterinary offices to hike the price of annual exams and shots?

It's annual exams, but they'll sell you more stuff, too. So they'll say, You know what? Your dog needs teeth cleaning, and so we need to put him under anesthesia. And that's going to be a $5,000 bill for teeth cleaning.

$5,000? Yes. I've had a lot of dogs, dozens and dozens of dogs. I've got five at my house right now, and I don't think I've ever had a dog's teeth cleaned.

Yeah, exactly.

And my dogs live a long time.

I'm 14. Exactly. Exactly. The thing is, you're there and you feel horrible because you only want to do what's best for your pet. But what happens is they have a list of all the services they want to sell to you, and that's going to be one of them. You feel horrible that you even have to think about the decision. Of course. But it's like, that's a lot of money. Most people don't have $5,000 lying around the house.

Putting your dog under anesthesia is not a small thing. I mean, dogs die. People die under anesthesia. Totally. You're suspending life in a living thing. Totally.

I think what happens is it's the list of services that they'll try to sell you and make you feel horrible that that you don't care about your dog if you don't buy from this menu.

There's so much emotional leverage. People are so intense about their animals. Yes. Not in my house. We have critical distance. No, but I mean, you'd do anything. You'd sell your car. I mean, I would. They have a lot of power when they're upselling.

Yes, totally.

It seems like the incentives would produce produce actually bad outcomes where your dog or cat is getting treatments they don't need and that might be counterproductive.

Well, I think what happens is people just stop going out of that at all. I mean, that's what we've seen, is that there's just a whole There's tens of millions of dogs that never go to the vet. At Dutch, 50 % don't go to the vet, haven't been to the vet in years. It's because they don't want They don't want to feel bad for not buying extra services for their dog.

That's amazing. What about all the shots? There are a lot of shots, and they're very expensive.

Definitely, there's vaccines, but even vaccines, you should, as we have at Dutch, try to... So telemedicine can do vaccines, but there's definitely lower cost clinics that will do vaccines for $50, whereas in person, it'll cost you $150 to $200 for the same thing. For a shot? Yes.

Why would it cost $200 for a shot?

Well, they'll say, Well, I have to pay for rent, and I have to pay for staff. I mean, they'll say there's all this upkeep that the shot includes, but it's baloney. That goes back to private equity raising prices and knowing that there's some people who will still pay for it.

The profile of the vets that I've dealt with in the past 20 years, it really, really changed. It's a female industry now, which I think is good, just to be honest. I feel like there are really a lot of dog lovers. Not all. You get hard cases among vets, but most vets I know just really love animals.

Christmas is here. That means you're eating a lot. We are. It's a tough time to get on the scale because the meals keep coming and so does the weight gain. But what if there was a way to eat like you want to eat without getting really fat over Christmas week? This is an ongoing concern in my house. A snack that tastes excellent and is healthy. Well, it exists. It's called masa chips. It's part of a growing movement to revive real food, the kind your grandparents ate before snacks were designed in labs. How do they do it? Well, we'll tell you because it's very simple. Masa chips are made from three ingredients. Only three. Organic corn, sea salt, and 100% grass-fed beef tallow. That's it. This is not some weird Franken cocktail like most big chip brands. Masa chips It tastes delicious and you feel way better after. You're not bloated, you don't feel mindless. It doesn't take you out of the game for hours. If you want to pick a flavor, we recommend lime. My producer is literally eating a bag right off camera right now. Ready to give it a try? Masachips. Com/tucker. Use the code Tucker for 25% off your first order, or just click the link in the video description, or scan the QR code.

If you don't want to order online, you could also buy masa chips at your local Sprouts Supermarket. Stop buy and pick up a bag. They're awesome. Hate to brag, but we're pretty confident this show is the most vehemently pro-dog podcast you're ever going to see.

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This is an ongoing concern in my house.

A snack that tastes excellent and is healthy. Well, it exists. It's called masa chips. It's part of a growing movement to revive real food, the kind your grandparents ate before snacks were designed in labs. Chips. How do they do it? Well, we'll tell you because it's very simple. Masa chips are made from three ingredients. Only three. Organic corn, sea salt, and 100% grass-fed beef tallow. That's it. This is not some weird Franken cocktail like most big chip brands. Masa chips taste delicious and you feel way better after. You're not bloated, you don't feel mindless. It doesn't take you out of the game for hours. If you want to pick a flavor, we recommend lime. My producer is literally eating a bag right off camera right now. Ready to give it a try? Masachips. Com/tucker. Use the code Tucker for 25% off your first order, or just click the link in the video description, or scan the QR code. If you don't want to order online, You could also buy masa chips at your local Sprouts Supermarket. Stop by and pick up a bag.

They're awesome. What do they think of all of this?

What's interesting is that when it comes to just Dutch and In telemedicine, we get hundreds of applications from people who want to do telemedicine. Actually, to this point that it's female, telemedicine allows them to have a work from home flexible schedule, which they love. The main industry association, the AVMA, has basically made these vets feel that if they do telemedicine, the FBI will show up at their house. What? It has scared them to death from doing telemedicine. What? To death. It's because, again, it's comprised of these self-serving, financially-interested individuals who run the organization, but they have completely scared veterinarians from doing telemedicine whatsoever.

Why would the FBI show up at a vet house?

What they'll say, and again, I think this is why I want your listeners to know this. It's just so insane. They will that the federal law requires you to have a physical exam, no matter what. No matter if it's an opinion, it's a rash, it's a quick question, they'll say that the FDA website requires a physical exam, which it doesn't. But in every conference, in every newsletter, they'll say, Oh, well, we asked the FDA and they said that you need a physical exam. So if you violate this, you might go to jail. That's what they'll say at every conference for years now. They'll vilify me and Dutch, and they'll say, This guy is going to hurt your dog. If there's telemedicine, millions of dogs will die, is the headline.

I'm starting to laugh.

I mean, that's- It's obviously not true.

Speaking of emotional blackmail.

Yeah. One of the main- Buy this book or we'll shoot this dog.

Millions of dogs will die. Did they really say that?

Yeah. Well, again, so this is what they'll say at a conference. What I've been doing now is I've been working with the ASPCA and a huge coalition of shelter organizations because they're the ones that get the brunt of it. Because now millions of dogs actually also get surrendered because their owners can't care for them.

Because they can't afford veterinary care.

Because they can't afford it in their care. Yes.

Come on.

I'm telling you, it fucking sucks.

People abandon their dog?

Yes. Oh, man. I know. It gives me chills. It fucking sucks. The only way this can change is at the state level. We've been working... In Florida, it took us four legislative sessions to allow telemedicine. All it does is all the law will say is that the veterinarian can use their judgment to make a decision.

But may I just ask you a foundational question? Why is the state involved in what medical care you give your dog?

Just because health care is regulated at the state level.

This is veterinary care.

I mean, and then- But you have dominion over your dog.

I mean, right? It's so weird that they feel like some state legislator feels like he has more power over your dog who sleeps in your bed, who's your dog, than you do. What is that?

That's the system we live in. But actually, I will tell you this. Most legislators, once we tell them that this is a law that you need to help us with, most of them are completely on board. They're like, We have human health care. A lot of them will say, I didn't even know this was an issue. This is dumb. Where it doesn't work is when the AVMA or a lot of these state lobby groups who have hundreds of millions of dollars in annual budgets, if they've lined a politician's pocket, then that's where we will have trouble in those states.

Taking money from the veterinary lobby. Yeah. There are a lot of dark lobbies. We only pay attention to a couple of them, but there are so many. Yeah. Can you just quickly tell me how that works? The AVMA is the American Veterinary Medicine Association.

Yeah, Medical Association.

Medical Association. Why do they have an interest in preventing telehealth for animals?

There's one reason that they'll say, and then there's one reason that they'll say, behind closed doors. What they'll say in public is that they'll say telemedicine is going to harm dogs, lead to millions of dogs dying. But what they'll say at the hearing, behind closed doors, it's purely financial. They think that it's an either or choice that if you have telemedicine, people will no longer go to the vet and their brick and mortar business is going to die. That's not true.

Oh, so they're just preserving the monopoly.

Yeah, they're preserving the monopoly.

It's just like always. Most regulation exists to preserve existing monopolies. Yes, exactly. That's true in tech. It's true in manufacturing. It's true in in the nicotine business. It's true in veterinary care. Wow. I should have known that. Duh. Oh, you're right. Millions of dogs will die.

Who has died? No one.

Well, also if people aren't even bringing their dogs to the vet because it's too expensive, how is that good?

Exactly. Dogs are getting zero care. You will have these people say that they will prefer that. They'll prefer the status quo. The industry association will say they'll prefer the status quo than allow telemedicine. And by the way, it's not an either or choice. It's not like, Oh, I have a video call, and now I no longer get vaccines at the vet. We have, again, human health care. We still go to our brick and mortar annual checkup, whatever. And then if we have a issue at night, we don't have to go to emergency.

If you got porcupine quill quills in your dog's throat or cuts his leg on barbed wire, you have to go to a surgeon.

That's right. But if he has a rash and you just want to know, what is this? Why do you have to go to urgent care when you can just show, again, the dogs in the comfort of their home and you use your phone and show a video of their pie? Why do you have to drag that in?

That's right. For example, we get porcupine quills on our dogs all the time, a lot. I wish I could say my dogs are smart enough not to try and eat porcupines, but they're not. Every year, I have to take the quills out, which takes like four hours. But I do it myself because I know how, but also because my dogs don't like to go to the vet at all. It smells like death, and they can smell it.

Yeah, mine do, too.

Dogs are euthanized there. They know that. We do everything we can to prevent physical visits because the dogs are panicked. I think most people with dogs know this. I think cats feel the same way.

Cats are even worse. Yes. Because to corral a cat…

It's difficult. If you love animals, you want to care for them, of course, but you want to keep them out of the physical space if you can.

Yep. They're in the comfort of their home.

Exactly.

One of the things we see a lot is behavior and anxiety cases. That's even more so why they should be treated from home, because the dog is in their natural environment. Exactly. You're only making their situation worse by forcing them to this place they don't like. Then a lot of the behavior modification that happens, telemedicine is perfect for that because you can have these regular conversations for a fraction of the price. Just to give you a context, by the way, Dutch, less than $100 for a year of care. If you went every month, you'd pay $100 a month. You'd pay over $1,000 to treat your dog. And oftentimes, when you have anxiety, you need to have those regular check-ins. We had a story recently of this guy who had an aggressive dog. He's been on Dutch for two years, and the dog went from crazy, aggressive to now he has two buddies. His life has changed. Yes. And there's no way in the world this owner could have had the money or the time, if Dutch wasn't around, to change this dog's life.

Amazing. Yeah, and if you have a dog who bites, I've had a few, it's very disruptive. The dog can get killed, by the way. Dogs like that either get put down by the state or can be killed in a fight, You don't want that at all. It's a big problem. Actually, we're talking about this morning at breakfast.

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How does it work exactly? I don't understand the term. It's a hundred bucks. Tell me how it works. What's the alternative?

With Dutch, you go to Dutch. Com, you sign up. It's a membership service. It's $100 for a year of care. For a year, you can call a vet for up to five pets. We have vets available same day. Most appointments, by the way, are happening at night. Even if you have a vet, the vet's closed.

Yeah.

You have a video call. Most calls happen on people's phones. You talk to a local vet in your state, and you're talking to a professional, and so they'll- You're talking to a veterinarian? Yeah, you always talk to a veterinarian, a human being, and 90 % of the time, and we've been doing this now for five years, 90 % of the time, they're able to address the issue over video.

Amazing. And so does that include vaccines, or what does that include?

It includes the cost. So vaccines, you have to do in person, and we'll recommend a local clinic if that's what you need. But if you need medication, we have pharmacy partners who can ship that to you. You can also go to a pharmacy of your choice. We don't care. But it includes any of the follow-up messages, chats with a vet, so you don't feel like you're nickel and dimed if I have another question or if I have to follow up a week later. The other thing that's cool about digital first is that everything is documented. We know automatically when we should follow up for each condition, or we know that a veterinary needs to respond. We have goals. A veterinary needs to respond within a matter of hours back to the patient if there's a message during the business day. We can also really monitor quality metrics to make sure that customers are having a good experience.

Is this nationwide?

It's nationwide, but there are about 20 states that don't allow telemedicine. For For animals? For animals, yeah.

What?

Really?

Because of lobbying by Rick and order.

Because of laws, exactly. That's why I- Any big states? Any of the big states. Some of the biggest ones, like Texas, Which is crazy because California allows it, but Texas does not. We actually had a huge bill this year that literally got killed by the AVMA, and it's all because of money.

That's wild.

Yeah.

You are not allowed to do... Is there an underground telehealth? Why don't you just ignore the law and do it anyway?

Sorry, I shouldn't say that. Kind of. Well, so there's actually in Texas, there's a court case that is now at the Supreme Court, where the veterinarian said, Well, it's freedom of speech. I'm just telling people how their pets... This is my freedom of speech. The Fifth Circuit, which is Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, has ruled in his favor, but the attorney general has filed this as an appeal at the Supreme Court currently.

Seriously? Yeah.

What's his name? Greg. I forget his name.

That's so interesting.

Running for Senate.

That's so interesting. Right now, it is illegal for for anyone in Texas to call a vet on the phone and just get health care on the phone.

According to them, now there's always... There's two paths in Texas. Any state has an emergency provision if it's a life or death situation. Then in Texas, again, there's this Fifth Circuit decision that's currently... There's this competing situation in Texas Where on the one hand, the Fifth Circuit says telemedicine is allowed, but the state regulations still say that it's not allowed.

I'm pretty sure I could just call up and get very serious drugs prescribed through Telehealth as an adult. That's right. Very fully addictive benzodiazapines, for example. Totally. You can die from going off them. I mean, this is way more addictive than heroin. You can't die going off heroin. You can die going off Xanax.

It's all about the money.

But that's totally fine to get that from Telehealth. Or amfetamines, no problem. It's like Tijuana. You get whatever you want now, but your dog can't get treatment.

It's definitely unfair.

Well, it's deranged. Is that changing? Are you making progress?

We're making good progress. We've changed the laws in Florida, Arizona, Ohio, in a number of states, and this upcoming legislative session, we're lobbying in 12 different states. But definitely, there's a lot of states. I'm sure your listeners live in a lot of those states. One of the things we did as we launched this website called Save Puppies, safepuppies. Com. If you go to safepuppies.

Com- Well, I love your marketing.

I mean, if they're saying millions of dogs will die, you're fighting back with safepuppies.

Com. That wasn't taken?

I I know, right? Yeah, it wasn't taken. You can go there and send a letter to your local legislator. That's the only way that things will change is at the grassroots level because we don't have the crazy budget that these trade groups have.

Can I ask you, what does the AVMA think of private equity scooping up all the independent businesses?

I think they're associated with it.

They've got no problem with that?

I don't think so.

Prices going up, care declining. They're totally fine with that. But they're against options.

I think, again, there's two things, what they'll say publicly versus what happens behind closed doors. I've read... I mean, it's like we live in two different worlds because what they'll say is... For example, one reason prices are going up is there's also a massive vet shortages because the veterinary profession has one of the biggest dropout rates of anyone. This is just factually true if you follow BLS, Bureau of Labor Statistics. But they'll say there's no shortage, or you'll say, no, prices are going up, and there's data that shows that. They'll say, No, prices are not going up. So a lot of times when you talk them, the surveys they put out are completely nonsensical.

Right. And there's this bottleneck in veterinary school.

Totally. So that's another thing. The Avian The AMA, it's really weird in this industry. I think, again, I'm here because you shine a light on things, and I think a lot of people- Well, I care about this topic because I think the relationship between people and animals is just so essential. I know. It sucks what they're doing. So the AVMA controls accreditation for veterinary colleges. Okay? Really? This happens in no other... Like, law schools don't have a trade association besides who gets to have a law school. Yeah, in this industry, the AVMA controls what is deemed a vet school, and they have chokeholded that completely.

So private equity decides whether you get to be a vet or not. I mean, in effect, if private equity is the single biggest player in this industry, that's bonkers. Why?

I mean, it goes back to money. It goes back to when you have less supply, you can charge more because people are willing to pay more for it.

So they have an incentive to reduce the number of new veterinarians coming out of school every year.

It's like, I hate to draw that line, but I think that's what's happening.

Well, if it's about money, then it's supply and demand because that's what the market is. And so the fewer vets you have, the higher the prices.

Yeah. It makes I think I'm a curious person, and I try to understand, could it be something else? Is there another reason? Why would this... If you have high attrition, you have prices going up, you would think I think that the way to solve that is to have more- Yes, of course. And that's just not what they're doing. They've... Like, literally, I, at this point, know several vet schools that have just stopped developments, gave up because the AVMA basically told them that they're not going to get a license. That's crazy. I'm not sure.

Because there are relatively few colleges that turn out veterinarians.

Oh, there's totally few. Just think, I can tell you this statistic. There's about one veterinarian for every 3,000 pets in America. For context, the ratio in human health care is 1 to 20.

No way.

The disparity is so huge, and the amount of vet schools is so little. We could have dozens of vet schools pop up, and it would still maybe not be enough in the next decade. Aid. Like I said, this trade organization is refusing to launch any new schools.

Well, I mean, that's a cartel. That's cartel behavior.

It's very much cartel behavior. What's crazy is I feel like Then this gaslighting happens where I'm painted as the bad guy. They'll say, This guy, Joe or Dutch, he's just self-interested. He's the one that wants your money. I'm like, How is that possible when I'm reducing the cost? It doesn't make sense.

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Com. Why did you get into this?

Couple of reasons. Prior to Dutch, I was one of the cofounders of Him's and hers. I helped that telemedicine journey. I would say if we back it up even more, we'd have to go back to my experience coming to America and just always as an immigrant and having to figure things out. When my family and I immigrated from the Soviet Union. Where? To the Bay Area.

No, but where in the Soviet Union?

From Uzbekistan.

Uzbekistan.

Former or current separate country at this point.

Yeah, but then a Soviet Republic. What was Uzbekistan like?

It's Muslim majority, but I would say secular. Everyone got along, I thought, quite well, and we're Jewish. I actually didn't even know Jews Muslims are supposed to not get along. When we went to each other's weddings, there's lots of shared history and A similarity.

That's been true, by the way, to say factually, that has been true in various parts of the world over time. Not always, of course, huge problems, but then other places, there are no problems, and that was one of them.

Yeah. I had a good childhood. We left everything behind because my dad was almost thrown into a labor camp for having an illegal book, which is just like a regular... I'm sure it's probably maybe a book on your shelf. What book was it? It's called Exodus by Leon Euras. No way. It was huge in the '70s.

It's just a book about...

Yeah, it was huge in the '70s. Fighting for freedom. Exactly. I think it's a concept they didn't want you to know about. We fled. I had $100 in a red suitcase. We left, lived in Italy in a refugee camp for several months, eventually got political asylum to come to the United States, and then lived in low-income housing for a long time. In the Bay Area? In the Bay Area.

What was that like?

A couple of things. First, my dad definitely told us that we have to assimilate, that we have to learn the language. He himself, he was a civil engineer, and I saw him at first work in flea markets, just doing manual labor. I think it showed me that he would do anything for his family to have a meal on the table. I think later in life, it showed me no one's too good to take out the garbage.

That's right. That is exactly right.

And just the value of a dollar, I want to make sure my kids have that, but I still think... I think back to this business, I think that's why when I see things that are so expensive for people, I feel it in my bones because I still know what it's like to not have any money to make difficult decisions when you only have so many dollars every month.

What did your dad wind up doing?

He ended up going back to being an engineer. Wow. He got trained, education, and he found a mentor who took him under his wing, and he became an engineer again. Amazing. Yeah. They really, yeah. In so many ways, they inspired me. And with that said, There's not much that they knew about America. I knew that they would love me, but a lot of times, I had to figure everything out for myself. I went to college. I paid for college myself. I think all of these things taught me to be a survivor, taught me to make something out of nothing. That led me to Hims, and ultimately, that led me to Dutch.

Were you an animal person?

We had animals. In the Soviet Union, tons of animals. I always definitely grew up with animals. German Shepherd.

Oh, great dogs.

Had a black cat. So we had animals up until I was 10, and then we lived in tiny apartments. And so then we got, finally, when I had a family and we had a house, we got... So that's when we got Corgi. And that's how it all happened, because I was coming off Hims. It was starting to be a big company. I always like smaller companies and when I can actually still create something. Yes. And then we got a Corgi and started to see the vet bills. And then the kicker was, he got into a trail mix, and then we had a $2,000 vet bill. Trail mix? Yeah, trail mix had a couple of M&Ms in it. Oh, yeah. And they're supposed to eat chocolate.

Not supposed to eat M&Ms, yeah. They like them, though.

Yeah, I like them. Who does? Yeah, right.

Did he get sick?

No, but the thing is, and that's the thing, is then I was talking to a veterinary friend, and he said, You really didn't have to pump his stomach for the three M&Ms that he ate. Then that's how I started to look around, Could I have done something else?

Did you pump his stomach?

Yes.

Can I just pause and say, I love how, even if they're misguided, I love how devoted dog owners are to their dogs and cats. I mean, they'll do Yeah, I'll do anything.

Yeah. Yeah, I'll do anything. I think that's when I realized there's really no other option when it comes to... There's no telemedicine options that I saw. It goes back to that a lot of times it has to do with the laws. But look, I'm the guy who I figured when him started, it was actually a similar situation. Back five years ago, So telemedicine wasn't legal on the human side either. We forget that because it's now so commonplace, but it was also the same thing. I helped change those laws back then. I think that's why some of these groups are scared of me is because this guy comes from a place where he has nothing to lose. I think it's because I'm doing the right thing. I think they don't like that. I've done it before. I think that gives me more confidence that I can do it again. I don't think that's... Because before this, before Dutch came on the scene, what the shelter groups, for example, that wanted telemedicine, what they were doing is talking to the state veterinary boards. Because that's a simpler way that this could all change. If the veterinary board at the state, they could just say, If you want to do telemedicine, do telemedicine.

If it's medically appropriate. It could be as simple as that. For over 10 years, they were having these conversations. That's when I got here and I'm like, This is doing nothing, so we got to go the legislative route.

It's so revealing, however. Again, I think they're probably good people with good motives up and down the line. There always are in these systems, but the system itself is so distorted that they don't put the welfare of animals as the top goal. That always has to be the point.

If you're a veterinary board, the health of animals, that's why you exist.

Totally.

Right? Totally. But it doesn't seem like they're thinking that way.

Well, again, what they'll say is, We are thinking of the pets. We think millions of dogs will die with telemedicine.

How will that happen?

Well, let me tell you. If some of these examples I've seen, they'll say, like I'll say, the example I used, anxiety. I'll say, Isn't that great for telemedicine? The dog is in the comfort of their home, and you can shoot them. They'll say, Well, what if the dog ate a nail? If the dog ate a nail... I've been in hearings where this example has happened. Well, if the dog ate a nail, look, maybe he's barking because he ate a nail, and he's in pain because he ate a nail. That's why we shouldn't have telemedicine. It's like, Are there nails on your house? Why are we going to use this crazy made-up example to deny millions of dogs from having this opportunity to use telemedicine? Sure.

If your dog ate a nail, there's still no good reason why you shouldn't start with telemedicine.

Exactly. Yeah. Have that initial call. The vet will walk you through it, and then you'll know, do I go to ER or not? Exactly. It doesn't have to be an either or situation.

We had a family dog who ate a pin recently. A needle, sewing needle. Obviously, that's a brick and mortar situation. The dog passed it without any problems, which is the canine digestive track is a wonder.

Wow, that's great.

All kinds of things, mops, pine cones, So we need to emerge from it. But it still would have been worth calling initially. Why not?

Totally. Why not? It takes before Dutch, there's a a Poison Hotline that's like $75 just for that first call. You don't even know who you're going to get. That's what people do, because, again, if that's what you need to do, that's what you'll do. But there's definitely ways to talk to a human being, veterinarian, very quickly, even that for much less, and definitely much less than having to spend $1,000 in ER. I had a case where my dog, I thought he was having a seizure, and I really, I mean, I really flicked out. And I got on Dutch, and the vet says he's doing reverse seizure, and I really, I mean, I really flicked out. I got on Dutch, and the vet says he's doing a reverse seizure, and I got on Dutch, and the vet says he's doing a reverse seizure.

Reverse sneezzing?

Reverse sneezzing. I never heard of that in my life. No. And she showed me videos of reverse sneezzing, and it looked exactly like what he was going through. And like I said, I was literally about to grab him, drive to the ER, and she totally calmed me down and made me realize it was completely. Totally right.

That's, oh, what a great example. We just had a dog. We've had a dog eat marijuana in the park. We had a dog eat hallucinogenic mushrooms in the woods. Totally. The dog has been tripping ever since those four years ago. The dog is still seeing trails. Wonderful dog. Woke up with the dog this morning. But in both cases, there really was no treatment at all. In both cases, those dogs were bundled up and taken to the vet, which did not… I love the vet. I'm not against the vet, to be clear, but it didn't help at all because it's just there's no remedy.

There's a time and a place for everything. I think telemedicine is just a part of the overall experience. I don't think anyone's going to say it needs to replace. It won't happen because it hasn't happened in human care. But I think it's another option for people to get a peace of mind and to have an option that's way more affordable. We are seeing so many dogs, like I said, being given up or people who are saying, I don't think I can have a dog in my life. That sucks.

Well, that's a tragedy, especially people with children need to have dogs, I think.

Totally. It's been, yeah, for us, my kids are little Eddie, the Corgi. They love him so much. It's It's the best.

Can I also say it's really good for your immune system to be around dogs?

Yeah, I think I've seen studies that- Really? Yeah.

When our first child, who's 31, came home from the hospital after being born, both of our dogs, our spaniel, jumped up and licked the child in the mouth. Child's never been sick.

It's just a fact. Yeah, I think it definitely... I feel like I've seen stuff that- Really? Yeah, that you get that immunity. I'm pretty sure.

We've always, since I was born, My family has always been committed to that. You got to have a lot of dogs around and you stay healthy, and everyone's been really healthy. I think that matters. Again, I feel a little weird interviewing you because you've advertised on our show and all that, but I just felt it so strongly. I feel like this is such a good thing, and I think there are a lot of viewers of this who would agree. It was sincere. I really meant to.

Thank you. Well, I think when you first called me, it was Hey, I like dogs. This makes sense. I think I was like, Tucker's got to know this conspiracy that's happening because it's such baloney and it's so unfair. So few people, like I said, know how monopolistic it is. I thought that your listeners and you could help us because I think we're the Goliath in this fight, right? We're the in this fight. It needs people to understand how crazy the situation is, both for veterinarians who, like I said, feel scared to do telemedicine, as well as for pet owners who can't afford it. It all has to do with these trade associations who are keeping and using their monopoly power to keep the laws from changing. I think that whole part you had no idea What is going on.

I had literally no idea. Again, for us at this age, the cost is not the main barrier for us. The barrier is the dog. It's just so much suffering for the dogs to go to the vet. Sometimes there's no choice, and I get it. But if we can avoid that, we would just be so thankful to avoid it.

And your dogs.

It's dutch. Com. Yup.

D-u-t-c-h.

Well, I'm sure it'll be attacked for insider dealing, but it's not. I think you advertise with us no matter what, but I just wanted you to be able to say all of that at length. I'm grateful that you did.

Thank you. Yes. Joe Specter. Thank you. Thank you.