Transcript of Tucker and Mike Cernovich on Nicolas Maduro’s Capture, Charlie Kirk’s Murder, and Battling Demons

Thank you, Mike, for doing this. What do you think of the apprehension of Nicolas Maduro?

I'm dealing with a lot of... Because I spend a lot of time online, which you don't, and I think there's pros and cons to each approach. For sure. The pro is that you're really plugged in. The con is that if you read the comments, which I do, you really take a lashing every day. I just a lap because you can't... By virtue of taking a position, you just get lashed by one side or the other.

Yeah, I've heard that.

Now, apparently, I'm a neocon, again. I'm a neocon, which is bizarre because I was pro the raid on Maduro, and people say, Well, therefore you're a neocon.

Well, you're not a neocon. That's why it's interesting that you were in favor of it.

Yeah, of course. But if you're online, you're whatever the most extreme. That's what they call you. No, I'm not. I'm not an interventionist either, but There's a... I feel like we're always stuck between this false dialectica. If you either do nothing or boots on the ground. We need full Marine battalions to take the beach heads. Whereas I've always been a fan of the Trump approach, which is used Delta. We have these guys do targeted strikes, remind the world that the USA is still a world power, even though we might not feel that way, and exercise our might for a good purpose. So people say, Well, this is Iraq or Afghanistan again. I go, The people of Venezuela are not the people of... They're not the same people as Afghanistan. It's a different people. We've had Special Forces there for three, four decades. We've had business interests there for decades. The people of Venezuela voted out Maduro or tried to, and they couldn't get rid of them. So we went in and we got rid of them. So obviously, I oppose escalation and whatever. But the parade of horrors, especially after Sol mania, just hasn't happened yet.

That's Because I've talked to a lot of special operations guys during the Trump admin, and the way his approach differed, and this was covered a little bit in the media, but not enough, is under Obama, they just didn't let the D-boys and them run missions. Everything had to get approval and work off the chain. And by the time it happened, they didn't have their targets. And the Trump approach was, we have these people. They're trained. The level of the missions that they can accomplish, which we saw on video is unbelievable, right? He lets them do the missions. They do the targeted strikes. I've always been supportive of that.

I don't know if... I've got a double stack Sticato 9 in my bedside drawer. I've never used it. I don't feel the need to use it. But no. Well, I'll just tell you what I'm grateful for, and I'm grateful for the wisdom of not taking out the entire government, not because I support the government, but because we have clear models in Iraq and Libya and a lot of Syria. It can be very hard to put those things back together again. The fact that they appear to be backing Delcie Rodriguez, not because they love her, but because they're in favor of stability over chaos and her brother, and they're keeping the structure in place but making sure it's pro-American, that seems like a much wiser approach. That makes me calm down a little bit, right?

Yeah. The problem that everybody, the neoliberal and even some people on the right have is they don't understand that you needed a strong man like Saddam Hussein to keep all these religious- Of course. Seks together. It's obvious in hindsight, right? But at the time, people either didn't know, and in my opinion, they didn't know. I think that's true. People were just generally clueless. I remember I spent time with my wife in Vietnam, and you'd roam around all over the place. I remember we did the tours of the caves, and all I could think of was- The tunnels? Not even the tunnels yet, just the caves and the jungle. All I could think of was, I can't even fit in through here. What in the world are we doing sending 18-year-old corn-fed boys and black guys into the Vietnam jungles? Because if anybody had done any advanced recon, you would just say, Our guys are too big for the territory. You would literally just go through. There's just a lot to be said for looking at the real estate. You would walk through and forget the tunnel rats and all the other ways that they were buried in.

You would just say, There's no way we can send our people out here. This is just a completely different area. Then Vietnam, people have always tried to conquer them for thousands of years, and they actually take pride not being conquered. The foreign policy lead, of course, just said, Well, we're going to do Vietnam. It was the same thing with Iraq and Libya. Oh, all people are the same. Everybody's the same. We'll just remove Saddam Hussein, and everything will be fine. Then, of course, you have a mess. But with Venezuela and Latin America, they're just pretty much like us. It's a little bit of a different culture, but they've been influenced by the Europeans. They've been influenced by Catholic Church. They're running a similar operating system. You can communicate to them in a shared language. So even though people have doctrinal debates and everybody debates religion and what's the truth, which to me is the most boring thing in the world. If somebody's a Christian, and I'm a Christian, You're going to maybe disagree about, can you drink? Can you do this? What is this? But you're still in the same language. You're still close enough that you can bring people- You share a framework.

You can understand what someone's saying.

We didn't share a framework with the Middle East, which is a big problem. In Venezuela, it's a different situation. I also like that the air defense was completely disabled, even the Iran strike that happened a few months ago. We disabled their air system. We sent a message, and I think we need to send a message. I'm sounding like a neocon. That's why I hate that neocon. I hate that neocons ruined it for all of us. I hate that neocons ruined the discussion where you can't just talk about how it's good to have military might. It's good to remind the world that we exist and that we can do these things, we being the United States of America. It's good to remind people that we're still running the tables. But you talk like that and you sound, again, like you belong at the weekly standard or something.

Well, you still have a chance to pivot against the neocons because the Bibi people, literally Bibi's office, is pushing for MCM, this Machado lady, the gay marriage lady, the Klaus Schwab acolyte, who is supposed to be the Nobel Prize winner, actually, who's supposed to be the President in waiting. Trump has said flat out, no, she has no support. We're not doing that. But the neocons are pushing for her. They don't want the vice president to ascend to the presidency. So you can say that's crazy.

Well, I knew when she won the Nobel Peace Prize, I actually posted, We're going to go into Venezuela. You can just check the receipt.

But not with her.

Well, no. But the point is, that's how the table gets set. By now, you can tell the future if you just know that they always set the table a little bit beforehand. And the minute she won the Nobel Peace Prize and then praised Trump, Oh, no. Thank you for this. And then she's immediately smoozing with Trump. I go, oh, yeah, we're going into Venezuela. I don't need any inside. I don't need any top secret sources. That was all I needed to see. So whoever we send, I don't know. I just send Rubio. Where we went wrong, and I've had this conversation with everybody, from line infantry guys to people who did the higher level stuff in Afghanistan. They said, We just didn't want to rule the country. We went in and we won all the military engagements. This is another thing, too, why I'm glad the Venezuela mission happened. I got so triggered, man, the way that even people, politically aligned with us, would talk about the American fighting man. Oh, they can't win a war. They got beat by people who wear flip flops and say, No, they didn't. We took almost no casualties in Afghanistan.

And I think the last year we were there, I'm not even sure if there was a single casualty. It was the occupation that was lost. And these are just completely different things. So I think it's good to just remind people, no, that was all black pill doomerism because of poor leadership by people like Millie and Biden and the woke generals, and that we have a… It's unreal. We should take great pride in the people that we have in Delta and Seals and special operations.

Of course. But I mean, they're not making the policy decision. They're the instruments of other people's decisions.

They are, but it's a two-way street. These guys are not pot of plants, right?

Of course not. But I'm merely saying you can't hold a A man with a gun in his hand responsible for the decision to be there with a gun in his hand. He was told to do that by someone in DC.

Yeah. I don't know. I think that to have retention at these higher level units, I think the DC people, they obviously have an opinion. But I think those guys get more of a vote than we might give them credit for. They obviously can't just say, Well, I'm not going to go do this. But they have a... These are strong of people. I've met enough of these guys. One, they're extremely impressive. It's just a different caliber of person. It's very humbling because I would say, Oh, I couldn't do this. Maybe some aspect of it I could, but I couldn't. I don't have any delusions that I would have been a squadron commander in Delta Force or whatever. These are unbelievably impressive people. Yeah, they are. They're not just scribbling down notes. That's why some Muppet gives them instructions.

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If you don't feel like doing it online, you can go to your local Sprout supermarket across the country, grab a bag before someone else does. If the administration pulls this off and the country remains intact and you don't have various generals occupying oil fields and claiming them for their own, you don't have a civil war, you don't have a migrant crisis that wrecks Columbia or winds up here. If Venezuelans in the United States return to Venezuela immediately, as I think they should be required to do, immediately, Venezuelan nationals, then that is amazing. That will be amazing. I'm praying for that.

Yeah, it's always good to look at what victory looks like.

So you think this is victory?

No. It's good to think what victory would look like. This was the first step. I think it was a good step, But victory looks like we install our person who is aligned, but you can't have a puppet because then every... Because remember, 2028 is not guaranteed, so we have to think longer term, too. You want to get a person who's aligned and has their own point of view, but generally is going to do the right thing. The people of Venezuela... Dude, they were eating... I mean, you're in Florida. You talk to anybody in Florida, they're thrilled that that this happened, that Maduro is out of power. A lot of these people, they had their farms taken, their land taken.

See, I don't care about that. You show up in our country, you adopt our concerns, and importing your homeland's conflicts into my country and making those the basis of my foreign policy should strip you your citizenship immediately. What? I mean, I don't know. I'm not advocating for anything in Sweden or Great Britain. Do you know what I mean?

They were during Stop. During World War I, though, that's what the Anglos who founded the country, so I guess they were allowed to do it. But if you go back and read the debates around World War I, a lot of it was about, well, we should go back because that's the homeland. People are naturally going to do that, which is why I support immigration, moratorium, everything. But I don't know. I guess I'm more of a pragmatist than an idealist. We live in the world as it is. Florida used to be a swing state. It's deep red now. Venezuelans who come over are anti-communist. We need anti-communist. Miami, anti-communist. I'll give you an example. If you hold events, you're way too famous at this point, God help you, is, and I mean that like, sincerely, God help you. If you go to Miami and Antifa or somebody showed up, the Cubans would just say, Get out of here.

We're going to- Well, they did that during BLM.

We're going to like, Beat your asses.

Miami had no meaningful BLM riots. Tampa did. Why? Because Tampa is the only majority white city in Florida. That's why.

It's us like, Pussy Whites. It's us like, Pussy Whites indulging that and the Cubans and Vinny's lands who come in and look at our communism. If I look at the whole picture, sometimes it's good to get a little injection of people who lived under that because they're going to see it not as an abstract, philosophical, gentlemanly debate about, Oh, should we allow wealth confiscation and for your homelands to be destroyed? They see it as a fight for survival.

I get it. I To take the attention away from our country, which, as far as I'm concerned, is not thriving, doesn't seem to be from driving around, or there's some problems that need to be addressed, big problems, imminent problems. I don't know, to spend all your time worrying about Cuba. I love the Cubans here, love them. But how much money do you want to spend out of your kid's college fund on regime-changing Cuba?

I'm more of an imperialist, I guess, than you. Where we live in Rome, the empires do what empires do.

I just- But look what happened to Rome and London and Venice and the seat of every other empire.

Rome lasted a long time. It did. Until the fall of Constantinople, which was- Well, that, no. Eastern, the Holy Roman Empire.

Okay. You're adding a few centuries on there.

No, no, no. I remember, it's a funny story, actually. I remember that was... Because I'm argumentating representative sometimes. Good. I remember in my 20s, I would always hear people say, Oh, this is like the fall of the Roman Empire. I was like, I wonder what that means. Well, this is all pre-Internet, too, so you couldn't just read Twitter all day and have people summarize it. I bought Gibbons, The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

All three volumes, the single most boring treatment ever written.

It's very well written, though. I just kept reading and reading and reading and reading and reading. I think I got the abridged six volume, whatever, and I made it through three of six. I go, There's a lot to roam. I don't know if we could just say there's a singular point where- I totally agree. Oh, this is where it's just like the decline of fall. I'm more Bolshevic pilled on the time we're in, I think we're much more closer to the time of Franco or the time of the Tsar in Russia. Mystery Grove, when he republished those books, I read all those. I did, too. I had no real… I remember, actually, it was funny when said, Where's the White Army? Then all these websites tried to say, He was a Nazi army. I was like, You're historical illiterate. It was the White Army. It was the people fighting the- The White Army?

Yeah.

No, but you realize how illiterate historically- They thought that I meant the David Duke army or something? Yeah. No, I know. I remember and I was like, wow, these people are just illiterate. Historic illiterates. No, because you said in the monolog like, Where's our White Army? Immediately, it was like Twitter was lighting up Tucker Carlson.

This is why I don't look at it. That's just spiriting.

No, but that's really how illiterate people are. People who write for a living should know better. Because I didn't know what the White Army was until I was under lockdown on COVID. Covid, in a way, was the worst thing that happened to regime propaganda because everybody was locked in. We had all these smart people who were just posting things. You'd have these long threads, and I go, I never... General Franco. All I knew about General Franco was he's a fascist. General Franco was bad. The Republicans were good, and that was my understanding of it. Cortés was bad. The conquistadors were evil men. They were great wicked people. Okay, that's what I learned in school. Bolschick Revolution. I had a sense that it happened and the communists won, and it wasn't good, but I didn't realize the full evil. Then when COVID, you're like, Wait a minute, people are just posting books. I'm like, well, I guess I'll just keep reading. I also read three, four books a week. You realize, oh, no, we're not living under the fall of Rome. We're living under the time of the Spanish Civil War, the Bullshit Revolution. That's what we're living under.

I agree with that. It's a spiritual war as both of those were the French Revolution, same. Revolutions of 1848, same. It's all the same.

We need the Cubans and the Venezuelans and the people who lived in Europe.

I agree. I just want to focus on the United States to keep it from becoming Bolshevak Russia.

Yeah, but it's pie together.

Okay. It does since you read gibbon, and bless you for getting through that, it took me almost a year to read that whole thing because it's so tough.

It's a different writing style.

It is a different writing style, but it's worth it.

When you read the older books, which is especially good as we get up there in the years, they have... Because I write short, punchy, boom, boom, boom, but then I have to remind myself, you got to go back and read to where. You read a full paragraph and you're like, Wait a minute, I need to actually pay attention to what I'm reading. The flow is a little bit different, and it's a much denser writing.

A book-length idea can be fully formed. But since you're interested in Rome, there was this… I mean, the pivot really was not the fall of Rome, that was the end. You're giving Istanbul credit for being Rome. But in the fifth century, Rome, the place, was invaded by the German tribes and collapsed. The big pivot, though, was the move from Republic to Empire. Empire. It feels like that's where we are.

But we're afraid to be an empire.

Right. But maybe what we saw two days ago is the beginning of a period where we're like, Okay, we're an empire. We're embracing it.

That's my hope is American imperialism because I believe we're a just and moral people. I believe we're a Christian people. I believe that the greatest spiritual battle is the... I don't mean to sound like utopian or sound like a Bolshevak myself because some of this... That's why, again, the left and the neocons, they took all this. They ruined everything because you end up sounding like a leftish utopian or you sound like a neocon when you say these things. But I believe in my heart that America is the most righteous country that has ever lived, that Western Europe, if it doesn't fall, needs to remain upright, and that human suffering will be reduced by what was done in Venezuela. I think that's one way that I look at foreign policy is, in the Middle East, we created human suffering on a scale that's catastrophic. Vietnam, especially, too, that's one thing that always annoys me that I think the Cambodian genocide should be taught in our schools because one, it was because of communism and Polpot, and two, it was our fault because we were using Cambodian airspace. That's It led to Polpot's rise.

Propping up Prince Seanuk and the whole thing. No, you're absolutely right.

If we have a national guilt, we should actually have a national guilt over the Cambodian genocide, and we never rebuilt it. We just left them to live in squalar.

Well, you know who did fix it actually was Vietnam. Vietnam invaded in 1978. That kicked him out, right?

Yeah.

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Com. Remember, you mentioned you heard it here first. But okay, so I guess I haven't quite figured out what I think. I have a lot of thoughts. Obviously, I'm totally opposed and have been since a rock, since 2003 to anything like this. On the other hand, I'm thinking to myself, well, maybe I'm not in charge of history. Okay, that's one thing that I know. On the other to accept the reality of it. I would like to live in a small agrarian Christian Republic where everyone knows everyone else. That's my idea of utopia. That's not anywhere near what we have. We live on a continent-sized country with 350 million other people, and we'll probably have 500 million by the time we're old. We run at least half of the world. Maybe what we're seeing is people just embracing what was already true and not Like, fighting against... I hate the idea of having an empire, but we do.

Right.

So maybe that is what's happening. I don't know. I'm trying to figure it out.

No, I mean, you're born in the world. Right. That's the- You got an empire, just roll with it.

Be an empire.

You're born into a body. You're born into a human body and these weird things, and you have to figure out how to balance being an animal and a spirit. We didn't choose it. We were born into America in a particular place in time. Here's the problems that we have. Here resources that we have. What can we do to reduce as much as possible human suffering and govern justly as an empire? And we had one. In a way, we don't have one. That's the problem. It's like the worst of all worlds where they invade the world, invite the world. I forget who coined that, but that's a good- It was a favorite of Pep Buchanon's for sure. Yeah, it might have been Steve Saylor, one of those guys. But we had the worst of it, which is, Oh, we're going to go in and destroy your countries, and then we're going to bring you up here to do daycare welfare fraud. Exactly. No, that's right. Whereas the righteous thing to do would have said, We're going to invade your countries, but we're actually going to share in your resources. That was one of the real, I think, evils of removing Gaddafi was they had education, which again, sounds very leftist, but a lot of this is just objectively true.

They had free oil, more or less, free petrol, and now they have open air slave markets. We did the worst. We didn't build empires. We destroyed other people's places. Then rather than colonizing them, we brought everybody up here, and now we have 40 trillion in debt, scam after scam. We have, like it or not, we have blood fumes being imported, where now you have to have an opinion about Somaliland. My God, in my life, as I get older, I'm trying to have fewer opinions. And now I have to know difference between Somalia and Somaliland. And then you look at the Minnesota flag, which is obviously tied to Somalia. That, again, is the worst of all worlds. So if we're going to do it, then we should do it as an empire.

What does the future look like? What do the next three years look like? You saw the President saying, This worked, we're going to do it in a bunch of other countries.

Well, the future, generally, versus Empire building are two different things because I think the future we're on a pathway with the transhumanism. There's a fork in the road about humanity and what it even means to be a human. That is a whole other different discussion. But if you mean geopolitics, for example, I think that we're going to continue to see these kinds of targeted strikes. Now, the danger is that something- Whose aim is what?

To remove the leadership of the country and replace it with a pro-American leadership.

Yeah, to put... Plop one guy out, put somebody else in. If you do in places like Latin America, I actually think you can do it. I mean, Trump started talking about Colombia. The Mexican cartel, the strange thing about all this is that Everybody says, Well, why don't we do Mexico? When Mexico is a full narco state, they have controls of border towns in the US. It's a completely different- They have control of Arizona, don't they? If you talk to the turning point guys, then They have some pretty strong opinions about Katie Hobbes and how she got in. What would a war with a cartel? It's a different, it's a whole different Pandora's box you're opening there. But if you can remove Madera Euro, you can remove a few people. You're sending a message to people. Here's why I disagree with the neocon model, and I think there's a right-wing worldview that's coherent, and it goes like this. According to the neocon model, everyone is just a madman. They're just madmen everywhere. Pakistan- They hate us for no reason. They're just madmen, and they're not rational actors. Putin's a a madman, Butler. That's the whole worldview of just the neocons and the neoliberal establishment.

Putin's a madman. I'm like, Well, I don't know. He's 70. I read a lot about Russian history with the oligarchs had taken over the country after Yeltsin left. You needed a strong man to come He brought the oligarchs to heal. The oligarchs were looting the country. You look at him and you're like, You can call him evil. That's a moral question. But somebody being evil is different from whether somebody's a rational or an irrational actor. Putin is acting in a way that, in my opinion, is quite predictable.

He was the most rational actor in the world.

Yeah, of course. Then you look at the the mulas and you just say, They want to have their fiefdoms. They don't want high IQ people Iran, even. They're trying to get rid of as many high IQ people as they possibly can. This was funny. Actually, I was at a dinner. There's a Persian diaspora in Orange County and LA. Huge. Yeah. And not just Jewish and the secular and the Muslim. And I was talking to this. They're just like a good-looking couple, very well-educated, smart. They're great people. I go, How did you guys get out of Iran? It was one of those things where I thought I knew something, but I revealed my own ignorance. I said, How did you guys get out of Iran? He goes, Oh, he People on Twitter call me a liar for this, too, which is so annoying. But he goes, No, no. Basically, they give you IQ tests. If you're high IQ and you're too high IQ, they let you get educated and they want you out of the country. Because high IQ people have too much of a revolutionary risk. That there shows you that- Well, that's why we legalize marijuana.

Same idea.

I see the mulas under a different model than the neocons do, and I view them as they want to have their little fiefdoms. Of course. They want to govern over the ashes. Yeah, obviously, we don't want them to become a nuclear power or whatnot. But that doesn't mean you have to go in and go to war with them because, oh, no, any day now, they might just do something crazy, right? I think that's the right wing position is you see people, you remove the moralize, which most people can't do. Most people, they want to say the mulas is evil. Sure. Nobody hits the mulas more than the Persian diaspora. Of course. Nobody hates them more. So this whole idea that they're not... It was like, Sure, they're evil. But then the minute you talk about an evil person engaging in rational activity, then they're like, Oh, wow, so you support evil. God help. I've lived this. Oh, my God.

Then You're dealing with someone who shouldn't be involved in the conversation because they're not capable of thinking clearly. Here's my concern. I agree with. I think your analysis is absolutely right. Talk to the Gulf states. You think they like the mullets? No, they despise them, but they don't want to see them regime change necessarily because what comes next? The only country that wants that is Israel, and not even Israel, it's Bibi. It's specifically Netanyahu, and some of his supporters want that, and they're putting enormous pressure on the administration to do it. My biggest concern about what just happened in Venezuela is that will be seen as a template for Iran. Let's just take out the religious leadership of Iran or the political leadership or the military leadership, and everything will go as well as it did in Venezuela. Maybe that's true, but if it's not true, the stakes are high. No?

Well, that's why people have to have a definition of what victory looks like, because victory for the United States looks different than victory from other people. This is where I think people lose the plot a little bit. It might be in the interest of some countries for there to be chaos, because if there's chaos in those people, you can go in, you don't have to worry about it. It's the interest in the United States for there not to be chaos. I think- Of course. That's what we say. We say, of course, but nobody says it.

Well, I do constantly. Chaos is not in our interest.

It's in our interest that if we do do regime change, that we don't have chaos. We do want to have a moral leadership and moral clarity, and we do want to keep things on the right path. Then other people have different interests, and it's just up to us to keep pushing for the orderly governance of the world via American imperialism.

Well, it wasn't that long ago that many Americans thought they were inherently safe from the kinds of disasters you hear about all the time in third-world countries. A total power loss, for example, or people freezing to death in their own homes. That could never happen here. Obviously, it's America. People are recalculating, unfortunately, because they have no choice. The last few years have taught us that. Remember when the power grid in Texas failed in the dead of winter? Yeah, it happened, and it could happen again. So the government is not actually as reliable as you hoped they would be. And the truth is, the future is unforeseeable, and things do seem to be getting a little squirly. So if the grid does go down, you need power you can trust. Last Country Supply's newest product is designed for exactly that. The Grid Doctor is a 3,300-watt battery backup system that will power full-size appliances, medical devices, tools with clean, reliable power. It's even EMP-protected. That means it's shielded from lightning, solar flares, or an actual electromagnetic pulse event. There's no gasoline, no noise, no emissions. You just plug it in, charge it from the wall, from your vehicle, or from the included 200 watts solar panel, and keep going day after day, taking care of yourself and the people you love is solely up to you.

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Well, of course.

Well, not of course, because the foreign policy leadership that I've grown up with and that I know personally, that's not even in the top five.

Well, these are people that they want to play toy soldiers. That's the neoliberal order, the neoconservative order. I think we focus too much maybe on neocons and the neoliberals who have probably done as much or more. If you look at the Biden foreign policy, poking Russia and moving NATO, that was all neoliberalism. They're just too rich, I guess, and bored, and want to play checkers and chess with other people's lives. But the Trump view was We're starting from the American position. Gas prices are down. Oil from Venezuela, we need it. We have a deficit that we're never going to pay back. If you take a step back and you just embrace it all. So people always ask me how I feel, and I go, Well, I go from optimism to despair in a split second. Because if you look at the national debt, we're not going to pay that. There's no way to pay it back. It's impossible. There's no way to pay it back. So what happens? Do we hyperinflate our currency? Do we fall through on our debt? Trump is going to try a resource extraction. So we get Venezuelan oil, we drive down costs here, we get cheap energy here.

Well, apparently AI lead to maybe some deflation. Who knows? People have their own opinions on that. That's still being hotly contested. And in that way, imperialism can be a win-win because the Venezuelans can be better off We extract our share of it. Maybe that's utopia, maybe that's pie in the sky. But that- What's the other answer?

Is a tableset.

The other answer is more... The other answer is like, dude, Charlie Kirk was assassinated. Some guy was just at JD Vans house in Cincinnati, banging on the window, maybe shooting at it. All the details aren't there. The alternative is like a Bolshevak revolution. The alternative is anarcho-tyranny, which is what we already have under the Democrat rule. That's really bad. The alternative, if we don't fix it, you're going to have more class resentment. We do have a neo-bolshevak movement in the United States, unabashed Marxist. When the Maduro thing happened, it was interesting. You saw the Brandon Johnson, Chicago's mayor, mayor Karen Bass, who was in Africa while the policies were burning. She was taking some vacation. Mandami, and they're all with Maduro. So you have this global Marxist movement, which is the Red-Green Alliance, which gets tossed around. But some of the stuff these guys say in the think tanks, I've actually... If you read into it enough, I think a lot of that really is accurate. So you have this Red-Green Alliance of third-world thinking with neo-bolshevism or Marxism, however people want to characterize it. And they do not have a good plan for the US.

They want to loot it. They want to destroy it. They have a deep hatred for whatever reason of white people. White people of European descent are just absolutely hated by all of these forces.

And not just by them, by the neocons. We don't hate Europeans, too, for some reason. I'm not exactly sure why. But Christians, I feel like everyone... That is my frustration with all this talk of anti-Semitism, which I oppose. I just gave a speech saying, Why I oppose it? On Christian grounds, I am sincerely opposed to anti-Semitism and racism and hating anybody on the basis of his blood. I'm just opposed to it against my religion. But the main form of institutionalized hate is not anti-Semitism. It's anti-white hate in the United States. Why does nobody say that?

I remember with police and fire hiring, that was in the '80s, where if you're a white male, Adam Kroll had talked about that before, where he tried to be a firefighter. Of course. They just said, Well, you're a white man.

How about J. P. Morgan? Same thing. It's in every part of American society.

Yeah, the white man has been... The white man, that's a funny way of putting it, but white men have been hated for decades, and they've been the world's punching bag until, of course, you a Delta Force mission. They post a picture, and it's all jacked white guys with a few Latinos. Always has been. With tattoos. You think, Well, the whole generation was hollowed out, and you just do not see. For me, that's a litmus test for 2028, is anyone who runs for president but won't specifically condemn anti-white hate by name is not even in the- Well, J. D.

Vans just did that.

You're not even in the mix because if you- Could you see Ron DeSantis calling out anti-white hate by name? Desantis isn't interesting. I think he would have three or four years.

Yes, I totally agree.

His evolution has been... He needs to listen to people like Christina Pushaw more. I agree. The problem I know it's a lot of people- He got sucked into It's a donor world. They get in the West Palm Beach, they get around the Richies. I've seen that happen to a lot of people is you cannot spend, whether it's the tech guys or the finance guys, the West Palm Beach people, Silicon Valley people, can't spend too much time around the Richies, man. I totally agree. They're not living in reality. They have all these weird pet projects that don't have any connection to downstream reality. Yes. They're glibbing of touch, and they're going to steer you aside. You have to just stay with the people, man. You got to stay with the people.

So Ken Griffin is not a reliable bellwether of American public opinion?

He bought this I think, Turanasaurus rex fossil or something for $75 million. Yeah, people who are like, I have so much money that I just want a dinosaur fossil or dinosaur skeleton in my atrium, might not be the people you want to take political advice from.

No, probably the last people. Do you think DeSantis is obviously going to run in the primary, you think?

Desantis, Cruise. It's going to be an open field because there always is because that's how they get media time and sell books and everything.

What do you think it'll look like?

The table? Well, one is it depends what happens in the midterms and how many appeachments Trumps gets hit with if they can't keep the midterms, although Elon's back in the game, so maybe Republicans keep the midterms.

Keep the house?

I think if with Elon, you can. With Elon's money, you can. That's the sad to say, but that's a sad thing to say. But that's just, again, that's where it goes back to I'm a pragmatist, not an idealist. Don't get money out of politics. Okay, well, that's nice. No, we need to basically... It's funny because all my friends are pro-Israel, basically. And my advice to them has been like a singular. One, you need to guys need to just calm down because the anti-Semite are so moronic right now. Just let them talk because everything they say is off-putting to anyone with a high IQ. But if you come with rancor, then that's just you're muddy in the field. I go, Two, is just be like Stephen Miller. Stephen Miller likes Israel a lot, wants Israel to prosper and everything. But when people think of Stephen Miller, all they think about is this guy's amazing. Stephen Miller wakes up trying to do things for America. Then if you do that, we don't really care what Israel does, or at least I don't. Most of us wouldn't or there would be certainly less rancor around it. If they would just fund things, then everybody would be better off.

So Elon, he just writes huge checks. And if that side wrote bigger checks for Republicans to just be Republicans. That's what I've been I was like, Look, you're going to get 80, 90% of what you want. If you just keep Republicans in the House, you're going to get that. The alternative for you guys is AOC and Mondami and all these other people versus people like me who are just realistic and pragmatic about it. People like JD who's the same thing. He's just a pragmatist. You just got to accept that not everybody is going to be an ideologue about it, but you can still win without people being You can win, which is good old fashioned alliances where you help out, you pitch in.

You don't see the Trump coalition is so broken, so fractured. Because I do think the neocons are intentionally breaking it because they want to keep JD from becoming- I don't think it's working, though.

I mean, I'm an old head.

You don't think it's working.

I'm an old head from 2015. This is all a repeat of 2015. It's a repeat of the DeSantis when he ran in the primary. Same talking points at the same people playing the same kinds of games. I don't I just see it as this is the third season of 2015, 2022, 2023, and now it's back again. So I don't see it. And the way the Paul lines up on this stuff, especially in like 2028, is you got to look at it as there's the problem. I always want to be careful what I say is that, not because I'm afraid of being canceled because I've been through the Ringer a thousand times. But the people who really see Israel as a key issue just need to understand that, hey, man, you're going to get most of what you want. But if you take it so that we can't win in 2028 with a Republican because you create so much acrimony and division and suppress the vote, then you're going to get a bad Democrat. You're going to get a bad Democrat, and you're going to get maybe a bad Democrat Congress. People need to not behave in this way because it's not helpful.

I just think of things like politics. Am I being helpful of the country? Am I being helpful for 2026 and 2028. I think that's how everybody needs to view the map. Are you being helpful? Are you going to get what you want if you continue to behave this way?

You don't need to be an economist to see what's happening. The dollar is in trouble. It's getting weaker. It's sad, but we're not in charge of it. So we have to respond appropriately in ways to protect our families. When paper money dies, it's going to be replaced by programmable digital currency or gold. Gold survives. The same Americans who think they're protecting themselves with gold are the ones getting ripped off by big gold dealers. After we left corporate media, we got offered tens of millions of dollars to promote gold companies. How do they get the money to spend that much on marketing? Because they're scamming their customers. We didn't want anything to do with that. So we sought an honest broker, and together we formed a precious metals company that you can trust. It's called Battalian Metals. At battalianmetals. Com, we publish actual spot prices. We're totally transparent about the VIG, what we take, and we treat everyone with honesty. So if you've been watching what's happening, it's not just about money, it's about sovereignty and holding something that endures and cannot be manipulated or taken from you. If you've been waiting for the right time to act, this is it.

Visit battalianmetals. Com. Well, it depends what you want. If you run around calling people not the chance that you're going to convince them to become Nazis is pretty high. I mean, that's just very obvious if you're doing that. So maybe they want more Nazis.

There's a segment of people, but it's much smaller.

It's the lab segment?

Well, if you want... The incentive structure is different. So if you're in media and you want to maximize a certain sales funnel where they get as many people as they can, as many eyes on them, that they want to be acrimonious and they want to throw bombs because that's the business. But if you're more political, you want to think about, How is this going to help us achieve an agenda? How is this going to help the country? How is this going to help them get what they want? That's what I'm trying to I'm just trying. We have this alliance that won in 2024, the popular vote, which I knew Trump was going to win. We have mutual friend, actually. I'll tell you when we stop filming. But he was so blackpilled about the election. I said, No, he's going to win. We'll know that night. He's going to, Trump's going to win. We're going to know that night. He goes, This is crazy. I go, I promise you. I promise you. And election night, I was like, Well, who told anybody? The only thing I didn't see is I didn't think we were going to win the we.

I didn't think Trump was going to win the popular vote. We have this alliance. We have Maha. You have the O. G, like MAGA people, the wild energy. They brought in. There was always this boisterous male energy, but then they brought a bunch more of that in. Then you had the post-October. I don't think Trump wins if October seventh doesn't happen, to be honest. I said this at the time because when October seventh happened, they realized, Oh, this is what the left really is. I do think a lot of the pros and real of people were not paying attention to what the left had become. Because I remember I would talk about the Red Marine Alliance and people's eyes would claze over like, That sounds stupid. You have the post-07 people. They don't want their kids trans. You have Maha, you have the Nationalists, you have the populace. You get the tech guys, you get the wealth tax guys. It's a coalition, and everybody- The rappers, the Salvadorans. You have the rappers, you have the Venezuelan, the Cubans. It's a political coalition that has to be kept together. I think every coalition partner needs to look out for others, and some coalition partners can push for themselves more and lose sight of things.

In my opinion, foreign policy and everything else has gotten too much attention. Maha hasn't gotten enough attention. Rfk Jr has done what he has. The domestic issues, there's only so much Trump can do because judges are blocking him. But that's another concern of mine, is that domestic issues are getting blocked, and then that's going to create fractures in the coalition. But I do think the- Can I ask, though, if you...

The reason I have such a tepid, not interesting response to what happened two days ago is because I think it's a pivot point in history, and I fully understand what it means. I don't want to get over my skis until I have a better sense of what I think it means. But it is a totally new way of conducting diplomacy/ foreign policy/ military action. This is a new thing because Trump didn't dress it up with a lot of lying about democracy or human rights. He's like, No, we want the oil. And this guy's bad, and we're taking him out, and we're going to run it. No one alive has seen anything like that before in the United States. So you wonder, and that's why I'm saying, I think we're for good or bad, fully in the empire stage of civilizational development. The Republic stage is over. No one cares about Congress. No, just like, No, we care about the Roman Senate. I wonder how long until that same governing style applies to domestic policy.

We lived it, man. We lived under Biden.

Well, you're right. You flushed that out.

People forget we lived in... People like me lived in Ricky Vaugh was... I remember when Douglas Mackey was arrested. What a good man. Rated in Florida, chased down with guns. I followed all these court cases. The Blacks for Trump guy was chased down by unidentified FBI agents. They just started chasing him down with a gun because they obviously wanted to initiate a shootout and gaslight him into a shootout. A thousand plus J6ers, people who committed at most misdemeanor trespass or roundup. We lived under an arc of tyranny. Lake and Reilly is murdered. We have murders happening. La is again, anarcho-tyranny. For those who don't know because you don't live on Twitter, thank God, God bless you, is I forget who coined the phrase, The name escapes, but you would know. The idea is that if you're a law-buying citizen, you live under a state of tyranny where you're going to need a jaywalking ticket. That's right. But there can be a homeless encampment right next to the don't walk sign, but you're the one who's going to get the ticket while the encampment's there. We lived under an imperial dictatorship where everybody was just like, Oh, yeah.

Have you had your talk to the kids yet? Everybody, Charlie, Pasobeck, everybody had that conversation with the kids, which is like, Hey, just so you know, Daddy might be taken away for a couple of years and he's going to go away. If anybody shows up, don't do anything because they might try to shoot you. They might want to put a flashbank grenade in the house. They might want to kill your kids in front of you. When they raided Michael Cohen's house, even though Cohen ended up turning up, what they did to him was just disgraceful. They were going through his daughter's iPads in front of him. This is wicked, spousy stuff. It just didn't get really any media coverage because it caused- I didn't even know they did that to Cohen. No, that's one reason I think Cohen broke him. They just took all the iPads out of the little kids room, and they were just taunting him.

They threatened to send Don Jr. To prison for the rest of his life, or he didn't do anything.

John Eastman, a respected member of the bar, constitutional law professor, dissbar in California. Jeffrey Clark, great career in law, big law, Kirkland and Ellis. They're trying to take his law license in DC. One thing after another, and it got almost no coverage or no attention because the media would downplay it or they would lie about it. That was like the world, dude. I've had that conversation with my kids. They're too young to understand. I remember because I don't have any money. I have no money. People are like, Well, won't you have any money? It's like, my family has all my money because I know that I could just be stripped of everything any day. Even now, if you're a target of a regime, you could just wake up. You're like, okay, well, I guess I'm fucked. But on the other hand, you're just like, my God, how have I been boiled in the pot for this long that I've just accepted that as the norm. I think that's something that is a problem with all of us. We just took it for... I remember Charlie Kirk got shot. I remember. Posobit calls. He's like, Dude, they killed Charlie.

Everybody thought they would just kill somebody else first. But everybody knew they were going to kill somebody. Everybody knew it. This is how we live our life. I live my life knowing I could be killed any day. I live my life under Biden knowing, Well, I could any day, anything, something could happen. I know every day that I wake up just to a shit show of false. It just doesn't matter. That's the way that you live. As fucked up as it is and the The reason our people, I think, don't talk about it is you have a certain ability, a stiff upper lip. You don't want to sound like a victim. That's exactly right. It's not like, it's a weird... It's enraging in a way. No, this is not how it's supposed to be in America, where you know that any given day, you might be taken away from your children because of politics and because of how rotten and corrupt everything is.

I couldn't agree more. Obviously, I live a life exactly like the one you described. On the other hand, I think it's essential to cling to your nobility and refuse to become a victim and refuse to act like Seth Dylan or whoever, constantly talking about, Oh, the threat's against me. People are mean to me. Come on. You chose to be in this. Just man up.

He did, but he shouldn't have to.

No, I agree. No one should threaten Seth Dylan. I'm totally opposed to threatening him or anyone else. Just saying talking about yourself is discussed.

That's our problem, though. See, that's how they got us in this catch-22, which is, well, nobody can complain because we're mainly men and we're stuck. We take it off the chain. We don't complain, but then they get away with everything and people go, wait a minute. You had to say... I think that most people, if you told them, Oh, yeah. I remember when Douglas Mackey got wrongfully arrested and charged for a crime he didn't commit, and it's been proven now he didn't commit the crime, that I remember sitting down with my kids and I go, Hey, I just want to let you know. Talk to my wife, Hey, here's your money. Here's where the money is. It's all in your name. I don't have anything. Tell my kids, Hey, kids, they might take Daddy away. The bad guys might come and get Daddy, and it'll be okay and everything. Dude, if we don't talk about it, then nobody knows. But we're like, Well, I don't want to fucking cry. I'm a real man. I'm a da, da, da, da, da. It's like, Great. Then nobody knows. Then people get like, Wait a John Eastman, a distinguished law professor, wrote a memo that wasn't even acted on.

He just lost his life, lost his position at Chapman, his standing in the world, even his law license, his ability to earn a living. This is what is happening. We do need to bitch more. To be honest, that's our problem. That's the exploit. And whatever our DNA is or whatever our operating software is or whatever our genetics is, that's our exploit. Is we just, you just take the hits. You take the hits, you endure the weight of life.

Yeah, dad doesn't complain.

That's what you do. And then they take our country, and then they fuck us up one by one. I remember some guy showed up to Fuentes' place to kill him and then ended up killing somebody else down the street, shows up. People were like, Well, they didn't even know. It was like, because you're not supposed to talk about it.

Fuentes, his credit. I gave him a chance to talk about it and whatever you think of Fuentes, but he did not marinate in his victimhood at all.

Yeah, so Looney goes up to Kat Turnt's house, tries to get him. They go after Benny Johnson. They go after Seth Dylan. Candice Owens has had threats. Charlie Kirk gets killed. So I think there's a way to talk about these. And that's why the Charlie Kirk thing really was a frustrating thing for me because, well, I mean, it was a tragic thing. It sounds so shallow. I just thought that people would realize they're hunting us for sport, all of us. Tucker, they're hunting If they could get Shapiro, they would get Shapiro. If they could get Walsh, they could get Walsh. If they could get Candice, they could get Candice. It ain't the Israelis, and it ain't the Jews that are doing it. It's a violent, feral, terrorist, Bolshevik left, and they would get all of us if they could. So whatever acrimony we have, which is... I'm not a unity guy. I'm a guy who likes the mix maybe too much. But it's like, Dude, they're going to kill us. They're going to kill all of us. And we need to figure some way to coexist with one another, understanding that the threat against us is existential.

And the left, if they could kill Setdil, they'd be glad to kill him. If they could kill you, they'd be glad to kill you. To them, that's just another notch on their bell, their point on the scoreboard.

What's the administration doing with this?

That was my problem with the Trump's first term, is the political violence against Trump supporter, because, again, we're just supposed to deal with it, just deal with it, was almost completely ignored during his first term.

Is it still being ignored?

Under my definition, it is. Yeah, they're arresting some people. There's more happening than the first term, but the response is not what I would like to see.

The claim when Charlie was murdered was that this was Antifa or some in Tifa-adjacent person or organization. I don't know if that's true. I don't know anything about it.

I think it's absolutely true.

I don't know that, and I don't have any other theories. I don't even understand the story. But if people said it was true, so okay, where's the roundup of Antifa? So there are- I see- Sorry, you got a dog sneezing right there. That's good.

The good puppy. No, I'm a... I mean, I think it was Tyler Robinson. I think a 22-year-old man on a mission is a very dangerous thing, and I I think that there were other people in those Discord servers, and there were people tweeting, something big is going to happen tomorrow, and after tomorrow, Charlie won't be around anymore. So I'm very frustrated that there doesn't seem to be much interest in Maybe those people were just guessing or maybe they were trolling, but there doesn't seem to be much interest in finding out who those other people were.

Why do you think? It doesn't make any sense to me.

I always go back to the Garland text mass shooting, which is, to me, this is like the skeleton key of it all. Pamela Geller, who's very much pro-Israel, about as hardcore as you can be on the issue, did a draw Muhammad contest, and There was going to be a bunch of other people also, like a very pro-Israel, and a jihadi was going to shoot the place up. It was Texas. He got taken out. But by an accident of fate, a local law enforcement officer pulled over an FBI agent who was fleeing the scene, got the guy's phone, and the text message to the jihadis said, Tear up Texas. Sounds unbelievable. It's 100% true. Senator Grassley has asked for information twice from Ray and Garland has been stonewalled. I don't know why Cash Patel won't release it. I've asked everybody up this high, up the food chain as you can get, why we can't get it.

What's the answer?

My belief is that MKL Never Ended, Cointal Pro. Mkultra was, of course, the mind control experiments they conduct on people, where the book Chaos covered this in great detail for people who were curious about that.

About the Charles Manson murders.

The Manson murders. Then there was that Air Force guy who was drugged up and killed somebody, and that didn't even make sense. I didn't even know about that. That book was completely mind-blowing. I do think they still have whatever arm of that is, whether that's within the FBI or some other dark site within the intelligence community. I'm certain that that still exists. Because of that, you're not going to get any information about that because I do think there would be some dark up. Because what a lot of people, again, it The title of the book shows the agenda. It's just chaos. Get everybody afraid, get everybody panicked, usher in more surveillance technology, usher in a surveillance state, bring in a narco-tyranny where if you're law-abiding, everything you do is monitored by clock and all these traffic cameras. Everything you do is monitored. But if you're a drug addict on the street, you have free reign, you do anything you want. This was the Bolshevak method. There was a sultz in East and cold the end of Solzhenitsyn quote, where it went, I don't have the exact quote, but the substance of it was, your punishment for having a knife was different for the thief.

When you had a knife, it was terrorism. When the thief had it, it was just his way of life. And that what we're living on now with the modern and arco tyranny.

What do they have in common? Why does this same phenomenon reoccur?

Yeah, it's the battle, the battle between people say good and evil, but you would just say, logos and chaos. Logos, the divine order, the order of God, the unison of people, the fellowship of people versus the chaos and the acrimony, the evil of the dark one, Satan, demons. Every religious tradition has a... Even dualistic religions or polytheistic religions have chaos gods. So even if you're not monotheistic, which I'm monotheistic, obviously, but everybody has had the chaos agent. Chaos is destroying the divine order and the divine communion of people.

You don't see this as political battles, but as manifestations of a spiritual battle.

Yeah, it's a spiritual. The political is what you see. The spiritual is what you talk about, and then people will make fun of you and say you're crazy.

I don't think they make fun of you anymore, do they?

Much less so.

You had a tweet about this yesterday, I think. Here's your tweet. If you were a demon with dominion over the planet and you wanted to increase the amount of human suffering across the world, you would eliminate the white population.

Yeah.

You see what's happening, the the death of Whites, their massive contraction as a racial group globally. You see that as a manifestation of the spiritual war.

Ireland really is the Rosetta Stone, I think, in all of this. I agree. Because you can Again, even if right or wrong, you could at least rationalize, or Radizia was an evil Apartheid state, and they had to give it over to Mugabe, and it became Zimbali, but you know what? They did the right thing and had a bad outcome. We're South Africa for that. I don't agree with that, but there's a chain of They did the right thing. They ended Apartheid. It led to a bad result. Maybe they could have transitioned it better. But there's a A to B to C thing. They're right. Ireland, they were colonized by the white Irish were colonized by the white British. They were starved. Their resources were plundered. They had the potato famine. They lived like- Their churches were desecrated. Their churches were desecrated. They were an enslaved people. But they have to be punished. Oh, I agree. Why did the Irish... To me, that's If people think that tweet sounds crazy or any of this is crazy, then you have to tell me, why do the Irish have to pay prostitution?

I totally agree.

That gives up the whole game. It gives up the whole game.

This is a manifestation of the spiritual war, the destruction of Whites.

Yeah. Then why that is, I don't know yet. I'll still unravel it, but you can't deny it when you look at Ireland and you look what is happening. We look is happening globally. You look what is happening in the US and has been happening for decades. But again, that goes back to, well, you don't want to talk about how you could be killed any day, and that's just something you live with. I just live with it knowing that at any moment I could be gone, removed one way or another.

How does that change the way you live, that knowledge?

When you know, it's like memento, Maury. The The arrogance or whatever, because I pretend to be arrogant on the internet sometimes, but people who know me find that funny. But there's one, there's a deep weight that you carry. Just a deep weight where you know that what you do has consequences and you need to really focus on doing the right thing. It has consequences for yourself and the country, because if we do lose, the amount of human suffering is going to be immeasurable in the US and globally. When you read about the Haldimor, you read about the Cambodian genocide, you read about the gulaks, it's just a scale of human suffering beyond human understanding. And we're the remaining bulwark against it. So you're just left with this sense of like. And then I have a thing, a bit I do online, although it's really true, is I have a war on fun. So you don't get to have fun. I don't get to have fun. That doesn't mean I don't enjoy my life. It doesn't mean that I don't have a cigar and mountain bike and do other things. But I don't get to have fun.

That's not in the cards to me. I don't get to have fun. I have to live like a serious person who knows I could be killed, that my friends could be killed. In the case of Charlie, a friend will be killed, that even people, like Seth and them that I may not see eye to eye with. They could get killed, that any of us could be killed on any given day. In a way, it's not being in a combat zone in a way, but it is a form of warfare. I don't get to have fun. I don't get to goof off or live- It gives your life meaning in some ways. It gives your life... Yeah, meaning is a complicated subject, but it gives your life a... You certainly have a purpose, where you know that, and this is true of everybody or how people should live, is what you do does have significance and consequence, and you do have to make it count.

That sounds, in some ways, worse, but in most ways better than living without that knowledge that it could end.

Well, that's the meaning paradox. I think that's why some people call it the meaning crisis. Then before that, Jonathan Haight wrote a book, The Happiness Hypothesis. Meaning is this concept where if you chase meaning, you can't find meaning. But you find meaning by living in a certain way. Then you go, Oh, this is meaning. I have these weird... It's like a hyper-reality- You just did a film on this.

I should say.

We're working on it. Yeah, we're in a couple of months.

Okay, so explain this through that lens, do you mind?

Okay. Well, when you get older, you want to do things that are interesting and hard. I think doing a movie on the meaning of life is about as hard as you get, right? So you would say, what is the meaning of life? Which I've asked everybody, and people have their own answers. But sometimes it's good to attack it from the inverse, which is what would be a meaningless life? A meaningless life would be all this suffering of yourself and others, all the human suffering. It was just the way it is. We were just animals, and we were bred by some alien species to harvest gold. And if got harmed or genocided or whatever, there's no reckoning at the end. That, to me, gives me nightmares. To think there's no reckoning or no... So then you would say, Well, that would be meaningless. Okay. I'm chasing whatever that is. So then you start to think of meaning. What is that? What meaning is communion with God. It's a catharsis. It's that whatever it was, whatever there's a saying, the only way out is through. It's like, whatever this is that you're going to get through it and there is a divine evening out of everything and that everything did have a point and everything did matter.

Everything happened for a reason, not because you're a actor who doesn't have agency, but because it was part of the ride. So I got chunks taken out of me. You've had chunks, everybody has. Again, we're not supposed to talk about it because we're so macho, macho men. But I think I'm sometimes I'm just like, dude, I'm tired, man. It is Just having to live like that, especially under the Biden regime, the censorship regime where as an adult man, you can't even say what you believe because your whole livelihood will be destroyed. You might not be able to have a bank account. That was the way you lived. You have chunks taken out of you and to think that that was for nothing. Losing, which is how meaning ties into, I think, the political mealy is, Losing would be the most meaningless thing in the world. There's this painting somebody posted, and we get it reproduced in an oil painting. It's of when the Bolsheviks took over the palace at the Bolshevak Revolution. It just shows this. It just fills me with this rage. You're just staring at evil. I look at it like, this is what losing looks like.

Losing looks like you're lined up next to your kids and they start shooting you, but the kids don't die right away, so they're banging at your kids in front of you. That's what losing looks like. People used to say, oh, Cernovich, you're crazy. That sounds crazy. I remember they'd say that 2015, 2016, oh, you're so hyperbole. Now, everybody... That's what losing looks like. Losing doesn't mean, oh, you're going to have a wealth tax and you're going to have to pay a little bit more taxes. Losing is you are lined up in the basement and they are killing your kids in front of you. That is what losing is. Well, to me, that's meaningless. To me, that's the antithesis of whatever the meaning of life is. The connection between- Really? Meaning and... What do you mean?

Well, I don't know. I mean, the basis of Christianity is this guy who Christians believe was God who came down and then got brought up on false charges and tortured to death, but that- He did that so we didn't have to.

He took on the burden. A lot of people take the Christ martyrdom as some message that we should become martyrs. I always say there's been one martyr, Christ died on the cross. I ain't dying on the cross. I ain't a martyr. Christ did that, and he took on the sins of mankind, and he did that for us. I'm not here to be crucified and take on the sins of mankind. That's not me, if anything. It's almost egotistical to think that I should be a martyr and that that would be a way to go. I reject martyrdom theology fully.

Interesting. Yeah. What is the meaning if the meaning is not getting lined up against the wall with your kids?

The meaning is divine communion. Meaning is divine communion. Everything is divine communion.

Interacting with God.

Interacting with God in the downstream, the communion of people. I'll have these moments of hyper-reality where I'm wrapped up in my own bullshit and, Oh, what if I did this? In your own head, Then I'm on the couch with my kids and there's just a moment of stillness. It never lasts. There's just a moment of stillness.

Not when you have four, it doesn't last. No.

Well, in my own bullshit, fucked up brain, too. There's a lot of us, we make prisons of our own mind, right? Of course. The demons steal our joy. You're having a moment, and then they're like, What about this? Their deep state is coming for you. One thing after another. There's just these moments of stillness. This is what it's about. But that's because of our primitive brains or whatever our problems are, probably because we're not in the Garden of Eden, is we just can't maintain divine connection. The monks can, but it's a great esthetic. I always get that word wrong, aestheticism. I always get that bad. I'm bad with my aestheticism. No T. But it's a constant effort.

That's why the It's why they're living on a pillar of salt or in a cave.

Yeah. It's like the arrow prayers. It's like, God, Jesus Christ, have mercy on me. You have to constantly be connected with the divine and then lean into your heart more to distract us from the egoism. But you have to have some egoism if you live in the world. You can't just not participate in the world. So there's this tension between divine connection, which means surrendering yourself to the full presence of God, right? Versus is, okay, but I have to pay my bills, dude. I have to make my way in this world. And those are constantly attention. But then something, and this is probably why there's more of a rise for Eastern Orthodox and older religious traditions. Christianity is the... I love Protestant, so no offense to the Protestant, but Protestantism is very waspish. It's like the book. The Bible says this and here's the scriptures and it's very much of the mind. Christian apologetics. Oh, well, you think this is the Trinity and it's arguing back and forth, but you're existing in mind. Whereas the Eastern traditions. By Eastern, I don't mean Hinduism, but even though Hinduism has a- Eastern Christianity. But Eastern Orthodoxy and Eastern Christianity is also about the knowledge of the heart and the tension that you feel every day.

Every day, I just feel a great spiritual tension where I don't... If you ask me, are you going to go to heaven or hell? I'll say, God help me. I don't know. I don't know. Are you a good person or a bad person? God, help me. I don't know. I don't know. I don't have a good answer to that. It makes it weird, too, when people go at you because you're just like, How do you know if I'm going to defend myself? Maybe I am. What am I? But you can find a certain amount of meaning in that. There's a certain amount of meaning in confusion I'm like, maybe that's how it was supposed to be that we are spirits and human bodies. Because if you read your old philosophy, there's debate of mind-body dualism. There's a sense that we've all had that, Am Am I a body? Am I a mind? Well, God, we're both. We are both. We're a mind and a body or a spirit and a body. There's going to be tension between this. We We wrestle against the flesh. Maybe that's the right answer. Maybe the right answer is to not be so sure that you're right and that you're such a righteous and holy person.

Maybe the right answer is, I don't know.

I honestly don't know. Humility is always the right answer. You're not God.

But you could be proud of humility. There's a great- Of course. Well, of course. Benjamin Frank is one of the best favorite writers, and he said he would keep a list of the virtues. He said, I've achieved all virtues, but I found that myself became proud of my humility. I realized that was going to get me. There is a meaning crisis because that's why we have the opioid epidemic. We have people, but even people who are successful in drug overdose, so they blow up their family lives because they're thinking, Is this really all there is? Oh, I did the right things. Even if you end up in a success, you're still having those nights wondering.

Well, maybe especially. Maybe that describes the politics you were talking about earlier where where a lot of a ruling class is just bored and let's hurt people just to shake it up a little bit.

Yeah, I think a lot of them are driven by demonic spirits. Those people, I think it's less of a meaning crisis, and it's more of an evil animating force.

Okay, so how do you recognize that? There's got to be a difference between just being wrong, which I have done many times, probably even today, and being animated by an evil spirit.

The angel and demon on your shoulder. Yeah, I mean, that's where the discernment that people talk about so often is something that I think about every...

So who do you look at from afar and perceive to be controlled by evil spirits?

When I go to DC, although it felt a little bit... It felt like it had exorcism recently, is I remember you go to DC and you just feel... You're just like, What is this? What is this demonic place? This place is the playground, playground of the demons. The whole place. The whole place, just to name one person would be to not do justice to the demonic forces at work in DC. Even recently, if you look in the Department of Justice, have you ever looked at the occult artwork at DOJ? No. I'll show you some pictures.

At DOJ?

Next time you're at DOJ, go get a tour and go look at all the occult artwork.

Why is there a cult artwork at the Department of Justice? It shows, by the way.

Because they take their religion seriously. We might not take our religion seriously, but they take it seriously. The bad guys take their religion quite seriously. They have a religion. They have a God. Their God isn't our God. Their God is the anti and the inverse of our God. But they absolutely have a religion. Their occult artwork is everywhere. It's mortifying. When you get the tour, you can probably find the pictures online. That's what we're up.

That's what we're up against. What's on the dollar bill?

Yeah, well, some of that, the cult symbolism is a complicated one because we had Jonathan Pajos and was interviewed for meaning. I was like, I'm like, ever since with ayahuasca, I'm obsessed with what does the serpent mean? Because under the mainline Protestant understanding the serpent tempted Eve, the serpent is bad, the snakes are evil.

Serpent is not good.

It's more complicated than that. He's an Orthodox Christian, so he wrote an article, The Serpents of Orthodoxy, where he goes because there was a staff with two serpents moving around. There's DNA. Even before the double helic structure of DNA was discovered, there was two serpents wrapped around. Oh, for was understood. Ayahuasca, the cosmic serpent. A lot of people see serpents, and that's a whole other- You've seen serpents while doing ayahuasca? Felt it moving through me, just flowing through me.

Serpents?

Snake. Oh, yeah.

I'm no shaman, but that doesn't sound good.

Well, that's what sent you on these like, ques. We wouldn't be having this conversation if I... Because for one thing, for Christians, ayahuasca is strictly forbidden. I don't want to seem like I'm glamorizing it in any way, shape, or form. But you have gone on multiple ayahuasca journeys over the years. For me, it's been completely transformed my heart. It's transformed how I see my children. It's the way I interact with the world. It got me interested in Christianity again Because the thing is God can meet you wherever you are, which is why there is good and evil. So it isn't to say there's no such thing as good and evil. But God can meet you wherever you are, and God can go anywhere and meet you wherever you are. In my case, I was not someone who... I never had any faith because I never felt anything. I would go to church and I grew up very Christian, and I would try to feel it. I was like, What do these people Like, there's just not, there's just isn't it. What is it that they feel? Like, is everybody in on something that I'm not in on?

Is everybody faking? Like, I'm faking because I don't believe anything. And that was because I had no whatever, whatever whatever sick sense people have for God. I didn't have it. I didn't have the God gene. And then I remember first time drinking tea and being catapulted to the spirit world. And I was like, Okay, the spirit world is real. That's okay. That's not even up for debate now. To the point where it doesn't even offend me when people are atheists or don't believe in it. I was like, Well, I didn't believe in it either. I had to see it with my own eyes. Paul, he had to be knocked over and to see.

Blinded, yeah.

For me, that was my Paul moment where I was like, okay, well, somehow I ended up here drinking tea with no belief at all in God or the spiritual realm at all. Now I absolutely know it's real and went through a number of things. I don't know if you want to go into all that.

I do. Why did you do ayahuasca in the first place?

For the wrong reason, which was for the ride. Hunter Thompson said, buy the ticket, take the ride. Yes. So many people just sit around ruminating all day or daydreaming all day. Maybe I'll do this, maybe I'll do this. I've always been a just buy the take it, take the ride. What's it like? Buy the ticket, take the ride. I thought, well, I mean, I've done a lot of things in life before, and I felt like I was pretty sure of myself, that I knew how to live and was arrogant in a lot of ways. I thought, well, I've done everything else. I might as well just do ayahuasca. By everything else, I don't mean drugs. I just mean I was so full of myself and my own ego that I just thought I knew so much about life. I was such a wonderful person that obviously I would just do this because that's what people who are so great, so great do. I'm so great. I'll just do this other thing. And it broke my heart, broke my heart, over and over again. The whole night just broke my heart. So the way it works is you drink the tea and you just look around, okay, I think that's a mistake.

And then you start to fall under. And you venture to the spirit world, but it's not like you're here and I'm walking around, I'm in the spirit world. You're taken to a place where you have no free will, you have no power, you are more insignificant than an insect on this world, and you start to journey and experience these things. I'll give you an example because it's hard to explain, but I remember I'm drinking the tea, and sometimes you have a little bit of a light show when you go into the spirit world, you hear a buzzing sound like bees, and then you see a little bit of light, a little vapor on the side, and then you get the DMT light show that people associate with a psychedelic experience. That's the least significant part of the night. But a lot of times you start to get the light show and you think, Oh, okay, I'm into somewhere. But there's a sense of like, there's me and I'm into something. You go through there and then you become completely disoriented. You wake up and you look, where am I at first? Where am I? So I remember I woke up.

I go, I look around because you're laying down. You can't walk around. You're laying down. I look up and I go, Where am I? Where am I? Where am I? I go, Oh, yeah. I'm Mike Cernovich. And I'm in this place. I'm on this mat. And I got dropped off. And then I walked in here and I saw this person. And then I came and I drank the tea. Okay, cool. It's like you're reassuring yourself. Close my eyes. Wake up. Where am I? I'm Mike Cernovich. I'm in this room. And I came in. Oh, yeah, I got dropped off. I'm doing ayahuasca. Okay, cool. Okay, cool. Close your eyes. Wake up. Mike Cernovich. Where am I? Close my eyes. Wake up. I'm... Where am I? Wake up. What the fuck? Dead. Dead. There is no I. Dead. Dead. And as I'm falling down into wherever I'm falling into, I see my kid surface and my wife surface. And I was, for all purposes, dead. I was overwhelmed with the feeling that I was dead. I was like, I'm dying. I'm dead. There was no I. There wasn't even an I who's experiencing it, and I'm dead.

And then all I could think of was, are my kids going to be okay? Is my wife going to be okay? Are people going to be okay? How is that so foolish? How was that so foolish? I remember when I funded my kids' college fund, I was like, Okay, my kids are set. I can die. What do I need to be around for? Because I grew up poor. Then you learned that's your own trauma and everything. I was like, Okay, my kids are good. My wife's good. Everybody's good. Everybody's good. They're going to be taken care of. Whatever happens to me. Because part of this is knowing that you could be killed or framed any day. I'm like, Okay, everybody be okay. I remember I'm dying. I just heard a voice say, You fool. You fool. They're not okay. They're not okay because of money? Because you set up money? They're not okay? What is wrong with you? I was just left with this sense of, I'm a fool and I live my life foolishly, and I can't believe that I was such a fool. I'm dead now, and it's too late. And then, eyes closed.

Then I wake up and then I'm puking in a bucket. They call it a spiritual purge. I remember being like, Oh, God, I'm still alive. I'm still alive. Looking around, looking at this bucket. I'd never been. Everybody's afraid of throwing up on ayahuasca. I'm like, Oh, you will That will be the best part of the night. That will be that you will be thanking God that you're alive, throwing up in a bucket. And I was like, Oh, God, I'm alive. Okay, I'm alive. But then that's just That was five minutes. That was just five minutes. And then you go back under, and then it's like another thing, another catharsis, like another time loop. So I remember, I I get up and I look around and there's this woman walking around and she's carrying the buckets because people are throwing up and everybody's sick. You have the shaman guy or facilitator, and then you have the helper. And there's this person, she's walking around and she's carrying a bucket. I wake up and I look and I go, Oh, there she is carrying the bucket. And then close my eyes. You come back up. Time loop.

So time loop means I'm reliving this moment with you and I remember We live in this moment with you, but I'm stuck in it like Groundhog Day. Time loop. And that's the first time it happened to me. And that's a real mind fuck. So I get up. Like, oh, she's carrying things. Okay. She's cleaning up after people. And then I thought, you know how nice. Fall asleep. Wake back up. I go, man, look at she's so helpful. And I couldn't do that. I couldn't clean up after puke on other people. I just, I don't know how they do And then I wake up and I'm in the time loop again. I'm like, Why am I in this time loop? You start to feel like you're going insane. Why am I stuck in this time loop? And I close my... And I'll put up and it goes, I said, You don't even know her name. You never introduced yourself to her. You didn't talk to her. You don't talk to people. You just look through people. You don't get to know people. You're so arrogant. This person is doing something you could never do because you don't have the humility.

You can never clean up after other people. You don't give a You don't give a shit. But you'd even look this person in the eyes and just say, Hey, what's your name? How did you get here? You just came in here to drink your tea selfishely, the arrogant prick that you are. Because you wanted to take the ride. You want to take the ride, and you're just a bad person. I was like, What the fuck? That was more or less my night.

And you see demons at one point?

Over and over again. Oh, yeah. That was... So you can see demons. I remember being taunted. So that's what's weird about it is it's like... It's like a scene of a movie. But generally, there's a catharsis. You don't know. That's why they just say, before you go in, they go, The only way out is through. You're like, I got to go, Fuck yourself. The only way out is through. What shit is that? The only way out is through. What the fuck does that mean? You know? Again, that was my arrogance and my own delusion.

And That's true in life, though. Yeah.

I was just, and you're like, What does that mean? Well, it means that no matter how bad it is with the ayahuasca, I remember I would do mask, and then I would open up the mask and try to look around. A demon, whatever it is, an entity, says, Oh, you think you can open your eyes? And it just showed me the most fucked up things I've ever seen. People being tortured to death, killed, like the road. Have you ever seen the movie The Road?

No.

Like cannibal, like a horror film. And then it said, Oh, you think you can take your eye mask off? You can't run. You're running from yourself. You're trying to run from yourself and you can never run from yourself. I'm like, What am I running from? Then I'm like, What am I running from? What do you mean I'm? Because if you talk to me, at that point in my life, you would be talking to a very cockshoot. You'd not be talking to this person. You would be talking to a person who's like, Oh, yeah, I got things figured out, man. I got things figured out and I can prove it. I grew up poor. I've had some things happen that haven't been so good in my life. I've had to navigate life with a bipolar mom. I know life. You talk to me now, I'm like, I have ideas, things that I think are the path forward. But that person was just showing you are in the spirit realm, you are nothing. You are nothing and you're so arrogant. Out here, you have no power. So this is you're running from yourself. And I was like, what am I running from?

And it goes all that success you chased and all the whatever it is I was trying to do, they go, that was just masking your heart, the trauma, the trauma that you have. Everything you're doing is just to mask that. I'm like, that's bullshit. That doesn't make any sense. So it's like, okay. And by this, I mean, you're talking to a guide. So when I'm saying this, this is not like an eternal monolog. You're talking to something outside of yourself. It's like Dante's infernal, like the guide. And the guide said, okay, big mouth, you want to argue? We'll just vortex you back. And the spirit realm. So then you close your eyes. That's why I'm like, it's like, and seeing And you're like, oh, you're in a new scene. And then it shows you something from when you were a child. Or maybe in my case, it was something from when I was a child. I remember it was showing me the house I grew up in. And I was like, why is it showing me my house? I grew up in this small, shitty house. I hated it. We had holes in the carpet.

I was embarrassed to bring people over. I was like, why? Why am I being shown my house? I hate that fucking house. I hate this fucking house. Why are you showing me this house? And then a voice is like, you had all the love in the world in that house. Your dad loved you. Your mom loved you. They did the best that they could do. And you think that you can just give your kids money because that's your own thing. You grew up poor, but it's like you took the love for granted. You just like, you had all this love, but you didn't have money, so then that becomes your hang up. Like, Oh, do I have enough? And like, well, if my kids have enough, what do you need me for? What's that for? It was like, All the love in the world was in the house and you hated the house. You didn't even know it. I was like, oh, fuck. I always loved my dad and had good relationship. I was like, oh my God. And what was it like for your dad to be poor? Not know how to make a...

What was that like for him? And you're just like, Oh, fuck. He was poor, too. You guys were just poor. That was like the town lost a factory and people were jobless. And that's just every kid's dad went through the same thing. You worked at a factory, and then you had to find some other shitty job, and you find something else. And then eventually my dad figured it out. By then, I was in high school, so it didn't really impact my life either way. And then I was like, Oh, fuck. I have all these issues money, just in a way that's traumatic, not just in a way that people need money to live and you want to be greedy. But I had no idea, and I never would have reached that conclusion emotionally. Then you're zooming out and it's just like, oh, it's like, it loves the love of your family, the love that God has for you. I was like, fuck, okay. So then I closed eyes, you wake back up and it's like, Look. It was literally like an old grandfather or something, like something out of Gandalf or something. And it's like, look.

And it goes, in a very calming, like, masking voice, it says, It's not supposed to be this way. It was like, he was doing this. He's like, It's not supposed to be this way. And I look and like, like I said, I'm laying down and I look and I see this Gandalf figure floating. And I was like, It's not supposed to be this way. I was like, What's not supposed to be this way? And Then he just showed all the light. It's like the lights are all separate now. You're supposed to be together. It's supposed to be communion. It's supposed to be that everyone's loving each other and you just want to kill each other. He goes, This is not how it's supposed to be. It was like a frustrated dad who was like, This is not how it's supposed to be. This is not how it's supposed to be. I was like, okay, this is so above my pay grade. I don't even know. And that's how I know it's not coming from me. I'm like, if I could come up with stuff like this, people would think I was a genius. This is not my brain and I'm so smart.

And then I go back under and then I come back up and hear this scream. And it was like the scream of an enraged mom, basically screaming at the same situation. So then it takes years to all this together and everything. But that was showing me the masculine, the logos, and the way a father governs, and then the rage of a mom and the children are not getting together and the tension of male and female. Then I saw an old woman's face on a mountain. I was like, I don't even know where this from. I never read any books before this. That's Pachamama, so that's a different entity. In that case, I whatever Pachamama was, the mother earth or whatever in paganism that people describe it as. I'm just going back and forth between flashbacks to my life.

Wait, so you saw a demon that others identified that you'd never heard of.

A woman's head in a mountain. Yeah, Pachamama, I had no idea. I didn't do my research before going in. I'd know…

What you're saying is these are definitely not parts of your subconscious that rose to the surface under?

Yeah, unless it's a parabola or unconscious, there's a theory that our unconscious is generating our experience in real time. But it wasn't me, it wasn't a book I read. Because I was, again, like atheist, so every rationalistic argument they could say, Well, you probably just... No, I never studied Aztec culture and Incan culture. I didn't know what Pachamama was. They're external entities. So The older figure, you could say maybe, Well, that was the Guardian, and you read Dante's Inferno in high school. That was something in your unconscious surface. But Pachamama and other entities were so beyond my cultural understanding or my knowledge. Then you're going back into that. You go through it really hard. I mean, it's not a pleasurable There aren't a lot of ayahuasca addicts, right?

Is that true? It's not covered by Medicaid.

No, which is a good thing because I don't know a lot of... You don't want some fly-by-night shaman or you end up in the wrong situation.

It's all in Mexico, right?

A lot of things can go bad. There are different areas. South Africa, I've done it before.

How many times have you done it?

Nine, 10 times.

Actually?

Yeah. They're Oh, yeah. Because it's just you go in and I had a lot of... I had a lot of things that I had to beat out of me. I used to, just like we're earlier, we're talking about how a certain amount of stoicism we all have, which I think is good. I think therapeutic culture goes too far where you don't want to sit around and talk about how bad it was being a kid. But a lot of us, and I learned this dealing with a lot of veterans that have done plant medicine. I don't know if you've seen in Waves in War yet with Amber Marcus Capone. Amber Marcus Capone, they're amazing. You have all these vets who are suicidal, and then a lot of them do Ibogaine. They go down to Ibogaine Clinic. That's what... Vets is a charity I've sponsored, donated to for a number of years, and Vet Solutions. With me, you realize that a lot of what we do that we think of as virtuous is we're trying to hide something from ourselves. We're trying to make it so that we can't be vulnerable. With veterans, especially, they find out a lot of things that happened when they were kids, and that's why they became the men they were, because you're driven by the sense that I'll never be weak and powerless again.

I'll never be weak and powerless again, which that's a good thing. You shouldn't be weak and powerless. But If you have all this other stuff underneath that, then maybe you don't love your kids the way you're capable of, or maybe you're afraid to love your kids and wife the way you are because maybe you are afraid to be hurt. And that's another aspect, I think, where therapy culture has taken things too far, where you're like, Oh, let's talk about our trauma all day and relive things, whereas not like, but maybe for a weekend. Maybe spend a weekend and talk about it and figure it out then and work through it. You don't have to live it. I had so many lessons on how it was just a fool, basically.

It was just a fool. Well, that sounds amazing. I love that. My concern is if the demons are real, aren't you afraid they'll enter you?

That's the big debate, right? Sarah from Rose wrote a book, The Soul After Death. If you talk to Josiah Trunum, he would just say, Well, this is demonic in this pharmakea, and absolutely not.

That's my instinct.

That wouldn't even be a debate. Yeah, there's really no debate to be had. My position is I always warn people away from it because it's a monumental undertaking. It's not just something that, Oh, yeah, we'll go eat some shrooms and go take a hike in nature. It's not in the same world. A lot can go wrong, and it can disrupt a person's life.

Well, I've seen that, too.

With people's lives being destroyed by heavy-duty hallucinations. In what way?

A friend who killed himself was from LSD, but, you know. Yeah. Wrecked relationships.

Yeah, LSD is poisonous. They can cause a lot of issues. That's why it's more or less like if you're the guys, especially at Vets Amber and Marcus and I work with, these are guys that are going to kill themselves and they're alcoholics, most likely. We're not talking like, Oh, I'm living like life is great and I'm living in a state of love. I'm going to go drink ayahuasca this weekend. It's more like, or in my case, where You're just being pushed there because I was living in such a state of folly and delusion that there was no other way. In my belief, I think God pushed me there. I think it was God He showed me, this is the only way that I can show you that you are just a delusional fool, and this is the only way that we're going to get through to you. It's good to know that. The message got through. Then I have drink and had more tea since then, but it's not something that I do regularly.

What about the threat, though, of the demon entering you? You said you had serpents inside you. I should just say, I believe you. But the consequences of being... The first missionary trip Jesus sends the disciples on, all he says is cast out demons. The whole New Testaments, Jesus casting out demons, the disciples casting out demons. That's completely real, in my opinion.

Yeah, but the consequence of living my life... I was probably demon possessed before the ayahuasca because I was so... I'd been deluded by my dark forces into thinking that I was something that I wasn't. In my view, it isn't where, Oh, I was such a holy person. In my mind, I would have thought I was. No, it's the opposite where whatever I was before that, I'm not that way now. Whatever path I'm on is about God and Christianity and finding more love in the world than divine communion and just knowing that you're just not a paycheck to your kids. I didn't even treat them like I was just a paycheck, but it was a glibness that I had. The ayahuasca has just burned out all the glibness that I had, where I can't even laugh at things sometimes. I'm just like, that's just not funny. In a way, I'm too serious. It's like, why are you laughing?

It's a very non-American approach to voice.

This is just not funny. Trump is so fun. I don't care. Fuck fun. I hate fun. What do you mean fun? We don't get to have fun on this world. Fun? You want to have fun? What are you, a little kid? It's driven all of that out of me in a way that I couldn't have reached intellectually.

How does it make you feel about death?

Well, one, I know there's a judgment. I don't think there's a judgment. I know there's a final judgment for sure. Really? For me, it's not even- I think you're right, but what convinced you with that? Because I just was in the spirit world. I saw my divine judgment, and my divine judgment was hell. That was my divine judgment. One is I know there's a final judgment to the point where when people say, Oh, you're whatever, crazy, whatever. I don't even get offended. I'm just like, Brother, that was me. I was you. I was you before this. So how can I be upset with you for thinking this when that was what I thought before then? So I know there's final judgment. I know the accounting is in the human heart. It's not in the words. It's not in what you say. It's not in how holy you can be and how you can tell everybody else they're not holy and you're Mr. Holier than thou and everybody else is a sinner. The human heart is going to be weighed and measured by God. In my opinion, it's Jesus Christ. In my opinion, it's Christianity and Jesus Christ.

But I'm not into the apologetics where we argue in mind all day about what it is. I think the human heart is going to be weighed. That's something that God's going to determine at the judgment. I know that I'm accountable for everything. I know having died, for all purposes, I have died. I have died. I know that when you die, the only thing you're going to think about is the people you left behind. So all of this materialism and, Oh, no, somebody, I'm being picked on today on the internet, or I'm being canceled again, or this and that. None of that came up. Actually, one funny thing that came up was during one of my journeys, I was under and I saw something. So I came up and it goes, whatever it, whatever. That's what I mean. I don't know what it is. I still understand it. He said, You know how blessed you are that you've been attacked and everything? They go, You can talk about anything. That's right. It doesn't matter. People are just like, Oh, wow. So if he talks about ayahuasca. We fucking knew he was crazy anyway. This is probably the least crazy thing that he's said all week.

Whereas if I were more of legitimate and respectable, then I would have to think, Well, how's this going to play? How's this going to play? Should I talk about this? Should I tell Tucker? Are people going to clip this up and make fun of me? Is this going to impact my standing with the administration and all the serious people in the world? None of that comes up. All that came up was, Is my family going to be okay? That's the only thing that I could think about. So then you go from there. Well, are they? Have you loved them? Do they know you love them? Do you tell them that every day? Are you saying your prayers every night? Because tomorrow is not promised. I could be in a car right now, flip over and die in a second. People die all the time in a second. We take it for granted. Charlie Kirk is dead. Charlie Kirk is dead. That hurt me, too. That hurt me bad. I haven't cried so much in the past three months in my whole life. I don't care to admit I've cried about it. I think that's the problem people have is, oh, we don't...

It's like, I don't know, whatever a real man is, I think I'm pretty high up there, and I've been crying more in the past few months than I have my whole life combined. You realize Charlie just found out he just went to work. He's dead. His kids don't see him. They're not with him at Christmas. We're on the internet arguing about fucking Tyler Robinson, and was it the Mossad or was it this? Charlie's kids, they don't have a Christmas with them anymore. They don't have a Christmas with them. Erica goes home to an empty house, and then she goes on the internet and everybody's just saying the worst things in the world about her. She's not even my friend, but she's a mom. There's the worst things in the world about her. They had Christmas without their dad. What's that like? What's it like to have Christmas without your dad? A lot of people go through that. So Do my kids know this might be our last Christmas together, but I'm going to be here. I'm going to try to make it home. But if I don't make it home, you know I love you.

You know I love you. You know that you're my world and that I'm obsessed with you. And they never for a minute, they never for a minute have to wonder What does dad love us. Is dad good to us? My life, I text my friends the most dopey shit. Like, Love you, man. Just thinking about you. Just thinking about you. I never did that before. Just the dopiest Most sentimental stuff that you can imagine. Hope you're okay. Think about all your friends, you know how all of us have these mad friends that we're also mainly mean. When's the last time somebody just like, Hey, bro, I hope you're okay. Just thinking about you. That's nothing. I'm not poetry, but I just, Oh, I haven't talked this guy in a couple months. I'm sure he's doing fine. Maybe he's not doing fine, though. Maybe he's not. Why do we think everybody's doing fine? Who will it? Why? Fair. That's our delusion. That's the fallacy. The folly, everybody's doing fine. Then you don't reach out and then you go, Oh, well, we shouldn't have seen it coming. Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't have. I think I meditate on death.

I think about every day. Every day I meditate on it, and it gives me a sense of calming, if that makes any sense.

Yes, that's exactly right. Avoiding death is what makes you neurotic. Facing it makes you calm, gives you peace. Because that's the root of all fear, obviously, is the The fear of dying.

It's the fear of death and the fear of status and the fear of the egoistic attachments that we all to our names and reputations.

How did it affect your relationship with your wife?

I'm obsessed with my wife. I'm just a simp for my wife. Which you'd have to ask her, but I don't know that she would have said that was true or maybe necessarily early on. All I think about is my wife and kids. If I make money, I don't even care. I just get rid of it. I get it to them. People are like, Oh, aren't you worried about your wife leaving you or your kids? I'm like, I don't care. I really like, I don't care.

You mean sending all your money over to your wife? Yeah.

You should do that. You should do that. I mean, I did. That's the right thing. No, there's a lot of peace in that, too. Totally. It's like you're in your blood from a turnip. Come after me. I've lived it. You're very, very disappointed when you start, tip me upside down, and maybe you get a few quarters out of pocket. It's made me just completely obsessed with her and the kids. It's made me... I've gotten much nicer, even online, than I used to be, because you just think so much of it is not perfect because people can... I mean, my God, I'm not even, I'm not even, I wouldn't even say I'm good, let alone perfect. But you just realize, maybe that guy is just having a bad day. The guy cuts you off. That's right. I'm mad. I'm honking at him. I'm going to fight. Maybe that guy's kid's dead, dude. Maybe his kid is in the hospital. Now I'm just adding. I'm always about, I don't want to add to the trauma burden of the world. Who knows what other people are? That doesn't mean I'm going to let people walk all over me and everything, but who knows what people are going through, man?

You never know. I think about that all the time. I don't have any doubts that my kids know where we stand, my friends know where we stand, the people who aren't my friends know where we stand because I don't have time fake love and fake pleasantries and everything. It's either it's real or it's not. It's not real. There's just no point why even go into that middle space. And my love for my dad, which was always very strong, was even stronger. My empathy for my dad and my mom because you always think about what they did, right? To you. Because we're the center of our own story. Because you have to be or you can't live. I'm not diminishing that. But Then once you start thinking about what happened to them, what happened to them that got them here. Then suddenly you're like, Yeah, man, whatever. My problems are my problems or what I went through as I went through. But everybody has gone through that. Everybody's going through something. Then as that expands, I think that's meaning, and I think that's how you connect more with God because that's the divine communion. Empathy is part of the divine communion.

That's why charity is part of the divine communion. That's these are all taught by Christ. Even people who don't believe in them see the the logic in it. It's communion with the divine. The better we are with each other, the more in touch we are with the divine, and the more that we fight and we bicker and we squabble. In the case of war, we kill each other the further away we are from God.

You know Scott Adams?

Mm-hmm.

Quite well. He's facing death, it sounds like.

No, that's why I've been crying. I've been telling you, I've just been crying. I saw some video. Sean has sent me a video, and he's like, A lot of people don't know this. But when I was just starting off, Mike Cernovich really helped me out and really boosted, which is true, but I was like, He's on his deathbed. He's thinking about other people. I'm wrapped up on my own bullshit.

Aren't we all?

Every day. Charlie's dead, Scott's dead. We're all getting older. There's tragedy all around us every day. Do you want to start thinking your own life, and not that we don't already. So with Scott Adams dying, that's a huge loss. Again, I'd leave my house because I was crying. I was like, not that I'm afraid to cry in front of my kids, but they'd be like, Why are you crying, dad? I just got to take a walk and I'm just walking, and I'm like... Which is another thing, too, I liked about that. I couldn't cry before I... You hold it in. You hold it in, and once you good at working with the plant medicine, you learn it's just a wave, man. It's just a wave. Let the waves flow. Why are we so afraid? Why are we so afraid to cry by ourselves? Why? If you're in a room by yourself and things are surfacing, whether you're with the plants or not with the plants, who's there to look at you other than God? What are you afraid of?

I don't know. What are we afraid of? That is scary.

That's the ego in us that keeps us alive but also enslaves us. That's the part that desires the illusion of control. When you're letting things go, you have to surrender control for a minute. You do have to lose your shit for a minute. Then that part of the egoism wants to fight against that and wants to feel like, I don't do this.

Yeah, be dignified.

We don't do this. We don't cry. It's like, well, I mean, I don't think it's healthy to cry around your wife all the time.

No, it's not.

Right. I'm not a good idea. I'm not saying walk around.

Don't cry in front of your wife all the time.

Where we Weepee all the time.

That's the recipe for celibacy.

Yeah, that's not an ideal thing. But when my wife had a miscarriage, I cried the hell out of that. In my office by myself and I cried. Then you know When I noticed, I started talking to people, or I wrote about it. They're like, Oh, I had a miscarriage. I was like, Why doesn't nobody talk about this? I know. You can't talk about it. That felt like a kid died. I was not even pro-life at that point. I was like, Yeah, politically, am. When we had that miscarriage, we'd go, My kid died. My kid is dead.

That's true.

From that, I was like, Oh, pro-life. I just was an idiot. I didn't really understand.

That's such a common story, though, you hear from people. Yeah, but the people don't talk about it.

You're right. Yeah, that's another thing. Then everybody's walking around holding everything in. They're like, Why are people getting drunk? Why are people doing opios? Why are people... Why do you think? Because they're just holding on to it. Then they want to mask the feelings as they bubble up so they find alcohol, or they find drugs, or they find pornography, or the devil loves that. That's the thing, too, where I go back and forth on the demonic thing with ayahuasca. I just tell I had a friend about this, actually. I told a friend. He goes, What are you doing this week? I was like, Oh, I'm doing some fasting, and I'm going to do ayahuasca retreat. He's like, Ayahuasca, that sounds dangerous and scary. I go, Where are you going? He's like, I'm going to Vegas. I go, That sounds dangerous and scary to me. Well, you're going to be amongst the drungs and you might get hit by a drunk driver and you might drink too much and find yourself in a strange bed. That, to me, that's where the devil wants you. I agree. Because if you start looking at, like with the ayahuasca thing, even having some experience with it, I'm talking myself out of it until the minute that I drink the tea.

Up until that very second that I drink the tea, I'm thinking of every excuse in the world to not drink it because I don't want to drink it. I don't want to do it. But if 10 years ago you said, Hey, do you want to go take some shots of vodka and other things? I'm like, Oh, yeah, that sounds like a great time. Of course. Then you have to... That's where the discernment comes in, and that's where it becomes a heavier question. Well, Why is it that I want to do things that we know we're a sin, that we know we're damaging? I want to. I'm excited for that. But I don't want to do this thing that is demonic. With all of my being, if in I do not want to ever drink ayahuasca for the rest of my life. I do not want to. That doesn't mean I won't, but I don't want to. But why, though? Why don't I want to? Well, it's because of the spiritual awakening or the spiritual reckoning that happens and the realizations, which fundamentally, I think, have made me more, again, I don't want to say a good person, but it certainly made me change my life and live differently.

Have there been any downsides You got to be comfortable with spiritual confusion, which we won.

There's a certain weight now that I... Have you ever heard that expression, the unbearable lightness of being? Of course. It's like very California thing, and everybody's all about, lighten up, man. Chill out. You should learn to relax. I do, and a friend of mine who found the medicine after I did, remember We were hanging out. He came out to one of the cigare and he goes, Mike. I was like, Yeah, what's up, brother? What's up? He goes, I don't know how to say this. He goes, But since drinking ayahuasca, and he's a Christian, he plays in his band, he plays car in a band at church every Sunday. He goes, So I don't know how to say it. I go, Oh, you're really spiritually confused, right? He goes, Yes. I go, What do you think? I know the answer. He's like, All I'm thinking about is, Am I doing the right thing? There's a There's a confusion, but in a good way, where I think that a lot of people think, Well, I'm a Christian. I'm saved. I accepted Jesus as my Lord and savior. Once saved, always saved. Then I'll just live my life and maybe go to church and try to be a good person or whatever.

But you feel like, I'm a Christian. I've checked the box. Whereas with the medicine, I think it's the opposite, where you're just on any moment, you're just way aging against whatever, sin, the darkness. You're just like, I don't know, man. I believe, but I don't really know what's going to happen. I hope I'm doing the right things. That level of spiritual confusion, I think, is not meant for everyone. I don't think most people are... I think almost nobody should drink ayahuasca. I think almost no one should. I think it's only something that if a person feels like they're going to do it anyway and no amount of persuasion for me is going to work, then that's something to talk about. But I don't think people should dabble in this stuff. Really? But if you're a vet and you're looking at the bottom of a bottle of Jack Daniels You got a gun next to you. Let's get you to Mexico. Let's get you to Peru. That's a whole different conversation.

Have you ever known anyone who's been made worse by it?

Worse Universe is a hard way of putting it because people go through phases. What happens with some people, unfortunately, is because you are getting, quote, unquote, downloads from the universe, people do chase that download of the universe, dragon, versus the hard work of living in life. So drinking ayahuasca, once you have a hang of it, it's never easy. But it's like you put on your space suit and you know. You drink it and you can feel it moving through you and your hands start to feel like you have carpal tunnel. When you feel like you can stretch out and you're like, Oh, yeah, the medicine is about to hit. And you can't direct the experience in an active way, but you know what you're getting into. The first couple of times, God help you. What people will do then is rather than undertake the hard work of being alive, the hard work is here. The realizations that I had change how I here. But the hard work is still like, I don't know, this is a great talk. I'm going to leave here. I'm like, I think that was a good talk. Then I'm going to be like, wrapped up about some business thing or mad about something that somebody did to me or wondering about some uncertain thing.

Then the demons come in and steal your joy. So the hard work is here and planet Earth. Why are we here? That again goes to the meaning of life question. Take the Garden of Eden story, for example. Even if it's not real, why was it written?

I mean, if it's not real, it was written as a metaphor, I suppose.

Why, though?

To tell us about the nature of God and man.

That's one, yeah. But I think this is not our home. We know we don't belong here. The Garden of Eden is whatever this is, this is not... Whether we were cast out of Eden because we listened to the serpent and we rejected God, whether that's literal, that's a metaphor, the underlying feeling is that we are aliens on this planet. However we got here is a different question.

The New Testament says that a lot.

We're just stuck in these bodies that don't want to cooperate and that want to lead us to things that on a spiritual level, maybe don't want to do. The only real downside that I've seen from people who have done the plant medicine, although there are bad stories. After I had a really big night and the guy said, If you're thinking about leaving your wife, call me first. I go, I love my wife more than ever. I was like, It actually would be the opposite. He goes, Okay. He goes, But you had a big night. What happens is a lot of times people have a big night. The facilitator or shaman guy isn't good or he's fly by night, and you're just like, Oh, I realized I'm not living the way I'm supposed to, and they just upend their life.

I know someone who did that.

Yeah. That is 100% a risk. And that's why I'm always hesitant to talk about it because I don't want to seem like I'm glamorizing it. When I talk about ayahuasca, I want it to sound foreboding. Maybe you shouldn't do this. You probably shouldn't do this. You probably shouldn't. You might just blow up your whole life. You probably shouldn't do it to avoid people going in and saying, it's like, no, bro, you were just bored. You were just bored and now you destroyed your whole life. And the real work is the homework. The homework is this, what we got to do here. The downloads from the universe might feel great at the time, or you might feel like you have all this insight and connection to a superintelligence, a superpower, but you're still back here on planet Earth. Why don't you spend more time here in this body and playing on Earth and figuring out the best way to live your life?

Has the experience made you more aware of the spiritual realm around you day to day?

I see everything as spiritual realm. I see everything as being interests, entities, trying to act upon humanity in some cosmic war that we don't really understand. But for whatever reason, humans a very important part of it. Now, my belief, again, is the Orthodox Christian part, which is, I accept the Orthodox Christianity story is the true one, but I'm just trying not to be like I'm a priest because God, go to Josiah Trenum or someone if I want a priest. Stay far away from me. People ask me religious questions. I'm like, get away from me and find your side, Trenum. I feel the same way. So far away from me, please.

I have no standing.

Yeah, get away. I'm just saying my own belief is that God created man. We have bodies. The demons envy us because they can't be satiated. They don't have bodies. They hate us. When they attack us, that's their revenge against God. So the demons are constantly trying to use us.

They can't be satiated. Why do you say that?

Because they're floating around in a spirit. They've been denied bodies. So that they are roaming around in a zombie state.

Always thought that one of the hallmarks of like, hell on earth is the inability to be satiated, satisfied, full. Yes. Whether it's eating bad food or having the wrong sex, it's like it's never enough or drugs or alcohol or- Insomnia?

Yeah. Imagine, so they're walking around in insomnia. They hate us. They hate humans and they want to hurt us, and they, more importantly, want us to hurt each other to harm God. That's how they see us because the demons think they're going to win. Remember, if you're a Christian, we say, Well, we know how the story ends. God wins in the end, right? The demons don't believe that, though. We believe that. They don't believe it. So they believe that they can turn us against each other. They can get us to hurt each other. A lot of demons enter people through traumatic experiences. Yes, clearly. They believe they're going to win. In their minds, they are the winners in the end. They're going to win. They want to use us to get us to harm each other because they see that as harming God more than anything else. We're constantly being acted upon. I'm constantly praying for discernment, discernment, discernment, discernment, discernment, discernment. Am I being manipulated? Am I being led astray? Because on a political level, I've been played before by people, by sources, not knowing it. Oh, me too. Then I find out. A lot.

Yeah. When people tell me things like, Oh, here's the truth about the Venezuela raid, or, Here's the truth about Israel, or, Here's the truth about Palestine, it's like, discernment. Am I just being played? Because everybody wants you, especially at your level. That's why I was telling you guys earlier, I think the Lord above that I that I'm not you, that I'm not Russell Brand, that I am not Tim Pool, that I am not any of you guys because I'm so weak and pathetic. I couldn't imagine if I had your guys. No, it's not. You can say that. You can brush it off, but I have so many dogs and children that it's like, I don't even notice.

I make myself not notice. But no, but I think anyone who's in a position where other people listen to him is under particularly fierce attack. Constant.

No, just imagine the text like JD is.

That's unimaginable.

Just like, unreal. Because even sometimes I'm like, I'll see something you said. I don't agree with that. I go, Man, I'm not going to be another guy texting Tucker, nagging him about Please do. Nagging him about something. But no. There is the risk that, as you've seen happen, a person is an ayahuasca to a risk. They go in, they go, Oh, my whole life has been a lie, and therefore I'm just going to blow up my whole life. Don't do that. If the person you're with is not, if the shaman or whatever, the facilitator is not telling you, Don't do that, then you're in the wrong place. But But other than that and people getting caught in the trap of downloads, I've seen the biggest, baddest men on the planet that just want to hug their kids. They went from PTSD and staring off into the void and drinking and fighting with their wives and riding motor cycles too fast just for a rush. Because frankly, maybe it is a death wish. Of course it is. Then you take away responsibility because you go, Oh, I just got in a crash. I didn't kill myself.

Some pussy. I just got in a wreck. But really, they're trying to kill themselves and just become like... It's actually changed my view on a lot of this real men, don't cry, and you see all this bravado. I'm like, Dude, I've cried with the Delta Force guy. I've cried with the SEAL Team 6 guy. You are not more whatever your definition of manly is. If you ever see Marcus Capone, he's like this. You are not more manly than Marcus Capone or DJ or any of these other guys. That's for sure. At the very least, I do hope it... Because, again, I don't want people to listen to this and go to ayahuasca. That would be immensely damaging for somebody to do that based on what I'm saying to me. I don't want them to do it. That wouldn't be a nice thing to do to me. But I do hope that people can say, Yeah, what's the big deal? I'm by myself in a room and I'm praying and I cry. Why am I holding it in? Who cares? Then find that part.

Ego is the reason. I think you're exactly right. Last question. We're in a period of... We're in a huge change period, of course, and one of the qualities of it is chaos. It's just a chaotic moment. It's hard to understand, especially if you're 50 and you've been watching this stuff your whole life. It's like all of a sudden this is a departure. How much of that chaos is spiritual?

It always has been. I mean, you remember that song Sympathy for the Devil, Rolling Stone? Of course. What if that's not a song? What if that's real?

Well, it is real.

Right. In my view- The The Aqibitian terror, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Spanish Civil War, what's happening in Ukraine, it's all the same. It's all part of the same strain. I think that we, because, again, you're born in a certain period of time, and then we tend to overweight the time that we're and we see it maybe in a different color than it should be. We're not like, your son isn't getting drafted in the Vietnam War. We're not getting drafted in the World War II. We're not getting drafted in the World War I. I think that in terms of, even though he's a lamester, Steven Pinker is like, Better Angels, I think we were on the trend towards a better world than we've seen that that's been up-ended, but that we're still in a good time. What we do want to have as our North Star is preserving order, knowing that we're going to have conflict. But if we can find some allyship or alliance, and that means everybody has to pull their own weight, then we shouldn't give into the rancor and the infighting. I used to be an infighter and infighting a lot, and I've cut down on that by at least half.

It's a good New Year's resolution. Mike Cernovich, that didn't go in the direction I'd anticipated. It was much better and more interesting and deeper. Thank you.

Thank you. My pleasure.