Transcript of #2489 - Ryan Bingham New

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out. The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night. All day. What's happening, man? Good to see you.

Yeah, good to see you, man. Pull up to that microphone, sir.

All right.

Um, you were fucking great at that McConaughey thing last year. I really enjoyed that. That was my first time seeing you perform live. It was really cool. Thank you. It was very cool. You're so relaxed up there, man. So it was like you brought everybody into a nice, like, comfortable, chill vibe. It was cool.

I'm glad you guys felt that way. Sometimes it takes me a minute to get into the groove, you know?

Yeah, but it felt like that, you know? It felt like you were in it. Like, it brought us— brought the whole crowd into it too. That event that he does, the two events, the one, the singer-songwriter one, and then the other one with the auction and everything, they're so cool. Such good events.

Yeah, they're good people too, you know. I really grown to just appreciate the community around here in Austin and the Hill Country area and all of that stuff. I definitely wouldn't have the career, I don't think, if it wouldn't have been for the community around here that just supporting songwriters and music in the way that they do. It's pretty incredible, you know. When they get behind anything, it's just like, it just feels so good to see that many people come together and, you know, have that support.

It's a really good place, man. Austin is a really good community. It really is a very positive place. In a lot of ways. Yeah, I mean, nothing's perfect. There's no perfect places, but it's, it's really good. Yeah, I like it so much better than when I was living in California. It feels like real people.

Just, I miss it, man. I mean, I'm in the process of moving back to Texas as well.

Where you at right now?

Outside of Dallas, Texas, out by Tyler. Okay, I've been in Topanga Canyon in LA.

Oh, yeah, no, so I've been in the middle of it and Doing that Hollywood thing.

Every time I get across the state line, it's just like that weight comes off and you're just like, ah man, I'm home, you know? So, yeah.

Dude, you had the coolest fucking character on Yellowstone. It must be so fun to play.

It was so much fun, man. I had the, I laugh, I always talk about it. I felt like I had like one of the easiest jobs there, you know? It's 'cause my, the character was kind of a smaller role, you know? Most of the time I'd work like 1 or 2 days a week and then the rest of the time I'd just be like fly fishing and get lost in the mountains. Oh really? And just disappear out there. Yeah, it was awesome.

God, Montana's awesome. That show made so many people move out there though.

I know, you're gonna take your license plate off your car before you go, right?

You better not have a California plate. They will fucking write things on your hood, run you off the road. Yeah, they get upset. It's very interesting. Very proud to be from Montana. Yeah, you want to keep it to themselves. Like, let it go, motherfucker. We're all Americans, right? If you got a good spot, you should be happy that people from California figure it out. Yeah, don't be a dick.

Like, you're American bitch.

You're not— it's not the United States of Montana. Shut the fuck up.

I guess it's kind of anywhere, right?

You know, not that much here. Yeah, here's pretty inviting. I've never had that experience here. Yeah, not really.

Texas is a pretty friendly place. Yeah, yeah. And there's so many different walks of life that have been here for so long, you know. I think, yeah, in Montana and stuff, man, if you were tough enough to survive those winters and stake a claim up there back in the day, you had to fight for it, and they're still fighting for it now, you know.

That does make sense. I mean, that's also one of the things that's highlighted by the whole series, all the different Yellowstone series, the older ones with Harrison Ford. And, you know, they really do explain a lot. I mean, it's kind of a cool chunk of history to see, like, how this all got started, how the kind of people that had to survive out there when You know, all you got is a fireplace. Yeah, that's it. You got a fireplace.

I love all those mountain men stories, you know, Jim Bridger and all that stuff. It's just like, man. And there is something you get up there in those mountains that get into you, gets in— mountains get into your bones, it gets into your blood. And it's a, it's a different thing, man. It's a spiritual place.

It is. And it's also, it's like the most potent art. Like it's, it's nature's art. And you don't think of it as art, but God, it's so beautiful. It's like stunt, like sometimes when you're up there, you just have to stop and look like, God, this is gorgeous.

And it's overwhelming if you haven't been up there.

It gives you a feeling. There's like, it's almost like a drug that hits you because of the beauty of it all. Like you take it in with the blue sky, you see the clouds and the mountain, and maybe there's a lake below you in the canyon. You're like, God, this is gorgeous. It's like you feel it in your, your DNA, man. It's like your, your body knows like this is a fertile, beautiful place that's filled with life and this should excite you. So all your natural human reward instincts are all like, this is the place I should be.

Yeah.

Like, look at the sky, look at the lake, look at the mountains. This is fertile. This is like life-giving.

Yeah. Yeah. Several years ago, I went to a guide school up there, like a hunting guide school. And it was a whole pack squad. Part of it, I grew up cowboying and ranching, but I've never really been up there in those mountains like that. And my dad would always fantasize about that. We'd talk, you know, one day we're going to go on like a pack trip up in Montana. And, you know, we'd watch all those movies like Lonesome Dove and all of that stuff. So it was always just kind of a daydream. And years ago, I was just kind of overwhelmed with music stuff and all that and didn't know what I was going to do. And I ended up I just wanted to go up there for a trip, you know, maybe go on a pack trip. And I started looking up places, and I found this place called Royal Tine Outfitters. And they're like, "Yeah, you know, we come up, you can take you on a pack trip, but we also have like this 6-week school, you know, that you can train to be a guide. It's all mule pack and all kinds of stuff, you know." And so I was like, "Man, I'm gonna sign up for that," you know.

And it was life-changing. There's only 6 of us in the class. And spent weeks back in the backcountry packing mules and horses. Oh, wow. We'd just tie a rope between two trees with a tarp for sleeping at night and always post up a couple of guys to watch over the horses at night. I remember one morning I woke up, and it was in June, but we were way back in there. I woke up and the snow was coming down. I just kind of raised my head up and I was looking out at the horses and the snow was just falling down on their backs. And there was that moment in me, I was like, I don't know if I'm ever going back. You know, I was like, this is right where, this is where, where I need to be. Right. It was, it was tough to come back to civilization after that.

I think we're doing something with ourselves, to ourselves, with civilization that we can't really fully appreciate because we're wrapped in it. And it's not until you get to nature where all that weight just gets lifted off of you and you feel more normal and you're like, oh, this is where people are supposed to be.

Yeah, you know, no phones, there's no nothing, no distractions. And it's just like you— all your senses heighten, your eyesight, your hearing, your sense of smell, like all of that stuff. And, you know, I remember going into it, you know, I didn't know what to expect really. I've done some camping and things like that and grew up ranching and all that, but this was a way different deal. And I remember I just had this like backpack full of gear, you know, and by the time I got out of there like I just felt like all I needed was a pair of scissors and some way to start some fire, you know, and that was about it.

Yeah, I follow this one dude, God, I'm trying to remember his name, Clay— let me pull it up because I really enjoy his videos. But this dude, he lives, I believe he lives in Alaska, but he does a lot of trips in America, like all over America in the lower 48, and he goes and like lives by himself in some kind of harsh environment. Like he's done it in the swamps. Clay Hayes. That's it.

Does he like take his kid out there? Uh, he—

I believe he has. He's taken his dog. But a lot of times he just goes entirely by himself.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, they're very, very interesting. Like he starts his own fire. He'll figure out how to get food. He figures out how to purify water. He's taken salt water and made his own thing. Thing that kind of distills it into fresh water and removes the salt, like, very slowly by using a piece of bamboo and fire and boiling the water in the bamboo so that, like, the water evaporates and then drips down, and it doesn't have salt in it, apparently.

Yeah, I love that stuff. I love it. I mean, just to have those skills, just to know how to do it, like, whether you'll ever need it or not, just to know how to do that, it's just so cool. I remember, um, in that guide school, there's a lot of different parts to it, which was so cool. It was like we did a whole week of like backcountry, like wilderness first aid. You know, you had a guy, had a paramedic come in and teach us all this stuff. And then it was a whole week of just like leatherwork. There's a whole week of shoeing horses. There was fly fishing and entomology and all these just kind of little skills. But one thing that really stuck with me was fire building. Drill when we started. It was right when we first got there, and it was pretty wet and it had been snowing. There's only 6 of us, and we're guys from all over the country. I grew up in New Mexico and West Texas where it's pretty dry, and you build a fire, you can just take some little small twigs and get a little fire going.

He goes, "All right, you got 2 minutes to build a fire, and you need to have a flame to be 3 or 4 feet high." Man, I'm running around grabbing little sticks and twigs, and we have a lighter too. I'm just struggling. Smoking and they can't get it going. I look over and there's a kid from Alaska in the class and he just runs over to this big dead pine tree and just breaks off the biggest branch of dead pine needles and takes his lighter and just, whoa, within like 5 seconds has this massive fire going. I was like, okay, that's how you do that. And it was so just the littlest things to have that knowledge and part of it was you know, he was explaining to us, the instructor, he's like, yeah, you know, if you're out here with your guide and somebody that's hunting, maybe he's an elderly guy or somebody gets hurt and you get caught back in the mountains and it's snowing, it's like you better get a fire going and keep them warm real quick, you know. So it was always a, you know, a reason and a purpose behind it, which was really cool.

And I'll never— those are some of the things I'll never forget.

Did they teach you how to start fires with like a piece of metal and like flint? Like, you know, what is that, a striking rod?

Yeah, we did that stuff. And with like the pitch wood from some of the old pine trees, you know, you can find that pitch wood. And we did some bow and wood drill stuff. Not a whole lot.

That fucking shit is hard.

It was—

that's hard.

So hard.

I did that in the Boy Scouts and it took like hours to start a fire. Yeah, you have to fucking keep sawing. And if you're doing it with your hand, you're gonna blow your hands up. Yeah, you better get a bow.

Get your technique down.

Yeah, you know, you gotta have the stick on the top and the the stick that goes all the way to the base thing, and you cut a little hole in the base thing so that it, like, all the little embers can fall into your kindling, and you gotta saw the shit out of that fucker.

And imagine trying to do that, you know, in the snow, or yeah, it's wet, right? It's like, man, it's just very, very unlikely.

You know what's really good for kindling? Fritos.

Really? All the oil that's in it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's kind of shocking. Yeah, we were in Alaska and it was raining all the time, and there was one day where it stopped. I was with my friend Steve Ranella, took took me up there. Okay, yeah, my friend Brian Callen, Ryan Callahan, all these guys. So we went up there, and when we got one day, like a 10-hour stretch where it was not raining, we're like, we gotta start a fucking fire, because it was, it was raining every day for like 5 days in a row, and we couldn't find any deer. It was a nightmare. It was tough hunting.

Yeah.

So we— this one day, and we were trying to figure out things to light on fire because everything's soaking wet. And so we got some pieces of wood from like underneath the bottom of trees and shit and dead trees that were covered by other things that were kind of sort of a little bit dry. And we used Fritos. And Fritos, when you light them, man, it's crazy how much oil is in those things. Yeah, they just— and they stay lit for a long time like a candle.

Yeah.

And so we started like piling little things. We got that fire, I was like the happiest I've ever been in my life.

I bet.

Soaking away.

I just cannot get— once you get that kind of cold too, it's just like there's almost You know, the cold wasn't that bad cold-wise.

It was like in the 50s or 60s. Yeah, it was just the wetness. The wetness was impossible to get away from. I thought once you get in your tent, you'd be dry. You get in your sleeping bag, you'd be dry. But I had to take a piss in the middle of the night, and I had to turn on my headlamp in the tent. And when I did, it was all just mist. Yeah, everywhere was condensation. And I was like, oh my god, I'm never gonna be dry. I had to just accept like there's no drying here.

How long were you guys back in there?

About 6 days. We had it We had to leave. We were supposed to be there for 7, but we had to leave on the 6th day because the storm was coming in. I was like, I could get stuck because you can get stuck up there. Yeah, we were on, I guess, Prince Edward's. Is that what the island is? Yeah. You get stuck up there. And I was like, I got to get back home. I got to work.

Did y'all fly in like on a puddle jumper? Bush plane? Yeah.

We landed in the pond.

So you had to shrink right out of the pond. So you had to shrink right out of the pond. To get you in and out of there, huh?

Yeah, exactly. And you could drink right out of the pond. Like the pond was all rainwater and there was no— it was too high for beavers. So you didn't have to worry about Giardia or anything in the water. You could just drink drink right out of the pond. Like, this is crazy.

Yeah, it's the best. I've never been— I've been to Alaska only like in the winter on a like skiing thing, but I've always wanted to go up there to hunt and fish. And the people are extraordinary.

Those are rugged people. Yeah, like when I did a gig with my friend Ari in Anchorage, and one of the things— it was weird because you get there, it's 11 PM, it's bright out, like this is weird. One of the things that we talked about after was like, those people were fucking cool. Like there's, there's something about living up there like where you die going outside like a good 6 months out of the year. There's fucking bears everywhere. If you look sideways at a moose, it'll stomp you to death in the fucking Walmart parking lot. Yeah, like, it's—

you better have your shit together.

You better have your shit together. There's bald eagles everywhere. The salmon are as big as your thigh. I mean, the people there are— they work together. There's like— they're very friendly, but they're very rugged, but they're also like, they realize you need each other. Like, there's a sense of like, yeah, community. Yeah, you need each other. If your fucking car breaks down on the side of the road, you could die. Like, someone's not gonna let you die. They're gonna pull over. In California, they're like, someone will get them. They just keep driving. So you just lose this sense of community.

Yeah, you're not calling— you're not— that's, that's who you're calling for help in times of need is your neighbor.

Exactly.

Even if like the bridge washes out, it's like here comes your neighbor with the backhoe and the tractor and like, you just do it yourselves.

And that makes a cool friendship when your friend helps you out or when you help your friend out.

That's what I miss about living in Texas too, you know, it's just like this, some of the small things or whatever that you like, even up at my place in Topanga, you know, you want to build some fence or whatever, like I do, I feel lucky I've got a couple of really good friends up there, neighbors that, you know, love to come, you know, work with their hands and get their hands dirty and we'll build stuff. And like, man, in Texas, you want to like weld something or you need something with a tractor, some heavy equipment thing, you know, like you're not getting that done in California, right? It's going to cost you a fortune to, you know, get someone with a skid steer up to your house to help you move some dirt around, you know. But here in Texas, it's like, oh man, just call Frank down the road. He's got one.

There's people that have a long tradition of doing stuff. You know, it's like, it's a real place.

I grew up like that too, you know. And, um, you know, people cutting hay and stuff like that, especially when you're young. Like, man, we would go stack hay for everybody around, you know. It's like, that was the summer job, you know. It's like, let's just go.

That makes a strong person. People that throw hay around, those are strong motherfuckers. Like, that term, like, farmer strength, that shit's real.

Yeah, you better say it. I was always a little guy too, so I had to use and learn how to use leverage real quick. Yeah, roll those bales on your knee. I think one of the last times I did that, I remember, is I was going to school in Stephenville, Texas, and had a good friend over in Glen Rose. And it was the middle of July, and he's an older man and asked us to come help him stack hay in his barn. And it was, you know, we're stacking it in the barn, you know, so, and it's just like you're inside the barn. It's just hot. It could have been 110 degrees in there, you know. And we're talking hundreds of bales of hay, and it was just all we could do. And of course we're hungover and we're sitting, you know, in college, we're trying to, we're stacking hay. And I was like, I think this is my last hay hauling job right now.

Yeah, those jobs, those are good for letting you know that this is not the life you want. Yeah, like get a good rugged manual labor job. It'll knock some fucking sense into you.

That's how I got the guitar, man. I learned pretty quick that the guitar felt a lot better in my hands than that shovel did.

Yeah, I know that feeling. I spent one summer doing insulation in an attic. It was all that fiberglass insulation. I had it in all my skin.

And your nose and your eyes.

Yeah, you're sweating because it's hot, it's the summer, so it's getting into your pores. And you're always itchy. You feel like it's on you all the time. Also, like, it's got to be terrible to be breathing that shit in.

Oh, the worst. Yeah.

And I don't even think we were using equipment. I don't think we used any safety equipment.

Heck no. You didn't have a mask on or anything?

I don't believe so. I think we just installed it, just unrolled that shit and stuffed it into the, into the rafters using paint with lead in it.

And then back then, the gasoline had lead too.

So drinking out of the water hose, right? Oh yeah, yeah. I think it makes a resilient person to drink out of water hoses.

Heck yeah, you get tough or die.

You get extra minerals from the fucking copper on the faucet. Yeah, it's, uh, those jobs are really important, like, for a young person to figure out what they don't want to do. Teaches you work ethic, teaches you like, hey, like, this is— you can get some satisfaction out of a hard day's work and a hard week. Like, you did it, you put it in, feel good about yourself. You know it was difficult to do, but don't keep doing that. Yeah, figure out a way out of this. Yeah, you got to understand that. You understand it, you got a feel for it, you know what hard labor is, but yeah, don't ruin your life.

Yeah, I feel real grateful. My granddad was always a real hard worker, and even when I was 12 and 13, you know, in the summers, or I spent a lot of time living with them, and he always had a job lined up for me. You know, it's like, hey, you're gonna go over here and we're gonna Mow so-and-so's lawn this morning, and we're going to go over here. We're going to send you out to Ken's and you're going to build some fence this weekend. And I always enjoyed it, though. I enjoyed those guys I was around. And, you know, I'd work all day and then we'd sit around and they'd drink beer in the afternoon, tell me stories. And, you know, and even now, like, on my own place, you know, it's like I don't want to be building somebody else's fence, but I'm glad I know how to build my own, right? Or things like that and have those skills. I still love working around the house and doing little projects. And things like that. I meet a lot of younger guys and kids that sometimes I, I guess I have an expectation that they know how to do that kind of stuff, you know?

Right.

They want to come over to the house and help with some projects and stuff. And I'm like, oh, yeah, cool. We'll just, you know, I already dug those holes and set up a string line and we'll set these posts. And they're like, okay. And then after about a half hour, I look over and they're just kind of looking at the ground. I'm like, what are we doing here? You know, they're like, I don't have a clue what you want me to do.

That's hilarious. That's hilarious.

But, uh, yeah, it's wild. It's changed, man. Kids ain't out there mowing lawns no more, that's for sure. No.

Well, there's something about that kind of work, like putting in fences and all the stuff that you see the cowboys doing on Yellowstone, and then hanging out together afterwards, that's so, like, viscerally appealing to people. There's something about watching that life, like it's— you would say it's like a simple, difficult life, maybe. I don't know what it is, but whatever it is, it's like, it's so appealing. Like, so many people wanted to be cowboys after they watched your show.

Mm-hmm. I think it's something goes to, like, you're talking about that guy living off the land and stuff like that. It's just, you know, something that's been ingrained in us over thousands of years of survival. And like, we have— we all have that in us still today. And we just unfortunately losing touch with it because we're not doing it as much. And so when you get the opportunity to even just go plant a garden or something like that, I think that's it. It's in us, you know, and it's a— it wakes up something within that's just been a little bit dormant for a while, you know.

And I think you're right, you know, I think that's exactly what it is. I think it is like it's in our memory, like the memory of our genes, that this is like a pleasing life This is a satisfying life.

It's like that mama bear energy, you know, kids come, it's just like, oh, it's like, yeah, oh man, you know. Yeah, yeah, it's, it's there, you know. And it's just like, I realized that having kids, it's just like, oh man, it wakes something up within you that's always been there, right, that you were born to have, you know, that, that survival instinct and all of those things. And I still, that's what I still love about it. Like, I even at home, being on the road and being in big cities all the time, and you're just surrounded surrounded with information and screens, man, as soon as I get home or get outside or get into nature, it just— it wakes that stuff back up in me, and it— I feel like it puts that spark back in my eye, you know? Yeah, I, uh, try to stay in tune with that as much as I can.

Well, it's clearly so appealing to people that don't experience it. I mean, how many people that are watching shows like Yellowstone never go into those areas, but they watch it like, oh Yeah, I want to live like that.

We see the, like, prices of horses just skyrocketing. Like, buying old ranchers for like $5,000, and now you sure it's like $50,000 for, for a trail horse, you know, which is cool, you know. I hope people are enjoying that and getting something out, getting something out of it. I, you know, I still, I mean, I'm not running a bunch of cows these days, but I keep a few horses around, and especially for the kids, you know, and whether they want anything to do with them or not, like like we enjoy so much in the afternoons, go up and feed them some carrots or brushing their tails and just being around that energy. My youngest little boy, he's just got, he's got some kind of mojo with animals, you know. And I've got this old mule and her name's Honey and she's got these big ears and she's massive, you know. And I remember when he was like 3 or 4, I'd be looking around for him in the backyard and I'd look out in the pasture and he'd be out there with that mule and she'd have her head down and he's just out there petting her ears, you know, and just like his connection with those animals.

And then, you know, getting kids up to the house or that are from the city that aren't around those animals, their first time around horses or maybe even dogs and stuff like that. And you can see they're, they're so anxious and, you know, not maybe so scared, but this is nervous, you know, it's big animals and stuff. And within like 20 minutes of just sitting them on their back or petting them and they, you see them relax and you see that energy kind of slow down. And I just, I love that, you know. I think it's so magical to watch.

And yeah, that's another relationship that's like primal, the relationship between people and horses.

Mm-hmm.

They do that with addicts. They do equine therapy where they had just have like people that are like heavy anxiety and depression, they have them hang out with horses.

I think even me, I still do. I mean, I get depressed and stuff like that every now and then, and I love being around them. I can walk out to the barn and just just being around them and laying there, right? And it's just like, ah, yeah, all right, here we go.

Just touching their head makes you feel better. Like, hey, yeah, how are you, honey? What's happening?

Hey, look at me. Yeah, connect, you know? Yeah, I get eye contact with them. I think it's looking into your soul, an ancient thing.

I mean, they helped us survive. We— and, you know, and we took care of them. It's like this ancient relationship. And then when you're around them them, that connection like immediately rebonds, reestablishes. I think it's in our DNA. I mean, just think about like how many generations of humans had to survive on horseback before anybody invented anything else. It's like if you wanted to travel faster than you could run, it had to be a fucking horse.

Yeah.

So that was probably thousands and thousands and thousands of years just cooked into our DNA. And when you're around them, it's like, oh my friend, this is my friend.

It's waking it back up. Yeah, it's weird. It's there.

Yeah, it's weird that stuff is in you.

Mm-hmm.

That nature stuff is in you. I mean, that's why we like watching shows like this Clay guy. Mm-hmm.

I love that too. I love that Steve Rinella show, that Meat Eater. I like watching that with my kids. And aren't you friends with Remy Warren?

Oh yeah, real good friends.

He ended up being my neighbor when I was in Montana working on Yellowstone.

Oh really? Yeah. Oh, that's crazy.

And I, you know, what I really liked up there was where they filmed the show. So, you know, it was kind of way out there, southwestern Montana, and a lot of folks that were working on the show would go back to Missoula in the cities, but I was like, "Man, I want to go get as far away out there as I can." And so I kind of went down this West Fork area that's on the— right on the edge of the most massive wilderness areas out there that goes into Idaho. And the road I was on, you know, it was paved dirt, then it dead-ended and it turned into a dirt road, and then I got this cabin that was just way back up in there with no Wi-Fi, no nothing, you know. Just disappeared out there and ended up meeting some folks. And Remy was just right down the road going towards Sula. And so I got the chance to just go over there and hang out with him and go stomp around the mountains with him. Such a cool dude. It's like—

Remy's the best.

Just like you're talking about going to Alaska, I love going into those places. But you want somebody like that with you when you go. For sure. Yeah.

Yeah, he knows how to get around. Yeah. And he used to have a great show. Well, first of all, he had Solo Hunter where he'd go and film everything himself, which is so much more difficult than just hunting. Yeah, set up the— keep carrying tripods with him and shit and set it up and make sure the camera's on the animal before you would shoot it. And then film himself, film himself moving up to there, set up different cameras that could show him executing the shot. Like, god, that's so complicated.

And he's a beast, man. Just try— that's trying to keep up with him, you know, just walking around the mountains with that guy. I'm like, oh man, wait up, I'll be— I'm coming.

Yeah, they get that mountain cardio.

Yeah, he's like a mountain goat.

Well, you know, he hunts probably 200+ days a year. Yeah, and on top of that, he does a lot of guiding. And when he's doing guiding, he's like always in the mountains, always hiking. It's like you just get conditioned to it.

Yeah, he's fit. I went to Hawaii with him and did an axis hunt over there. Cool. One of the coolest things I ever did. And I got this buck and we're loading him up in the truck and all that. And he was like, man, I'm gonna— I'll meet you guys back at camp, you know. It was dark already. And like, I know, you know, during the day we were hunting, which is steep mountains up and down. And I said, you're just gonna meet us back? He's like, yeah, I'll meet you back. And he just put on his backpack and just took off running. And we, you know, drove down this mountain road to go back. He beat us there by like half an hour. That was his workout though. He's like, yeah, it's part of my workout. I'll meet you guys back there. I was like, oh, you You're an animal.

That's funny. Axis deer in Hawaii is very interesting because they were given to King Kamehameha in like, I don't remember what year it was.

Mm-hmm.

Find out what year they got introduced there, but they're everywhere now. I've gone to Lanai a bunch of times. That's where we went hunting.

Yeah, it was wild. There are thousands of them everywhere, and you're trying to sneak up on a group of 10, and then you don't even realize there's like 100 right here laying down. That you didn't even see, and then they get up and spook the rest and stamp. Well, you know, you've been there.

Okay, it was in the 1800s, a gift to King Kamehameha from India, and there's 30,000 of them in Lanai and only 3,000 people. Yeah, it's crazy.

Weird.

The only place where you can go hunting, bow hunting, and you stay at the Four Seasons, right?

He said he got kicked out of there though because he was hunting so much, and you know, they all— that red clay there, you know, on your boots and stuff. He said so the whole hotel was just like red clay everywhere. The fridge is just full of meat, you know, like blood dripping out.

They kicked him out of there?

Oh, I don't know if they kicked him out, but like he's like, well, maybe we ought to go find somewhere else to stay, you know.

Well, just take off your boots before you come inside.

Yeah.

That's all it is. But yeah, it's that weird red clay and it all used to be part of the Dole pineapple plantation. So when you're around there, one of the things you notice is like there's layers of dirt, but then there's like almost looks like plastic bag underneath it. It, like a gar— like a hefty bag from all the farming. Yeah, so I guess they had a layer of like that kind of whatever the fuck a hefty bag is made out of, whatever that plastic is, and then the dirt was on top of that somehow, and then the pineapples would grow up through it.

I suppose keep moisture and stuff like that in the ground.

Yeah, I would imagine. But it's, it's, it's disconcerting because it doesn't feel like nature. It feels weird. It's like, it's weird, there's plastic everywhere on the ground.

Yeah. Yeah, and then you get in the mountains and like those old World War II turrets and stuff that are up there, did you come across any of that? I mean, it's just like, first of all, like hunting axis deer in Lanai, and like you get up on the top and you're surrounded by the ocean. I mean, what a trip, you know, just seeing that and then coming across all those old relics and just all the history there. It's just something to take into. And, uh, we are laughing because obviously they're trying to like control the population of the axis deer there, and I think somebody, some, somebody mentioned like, man, just get a couple of Bengal tigers out here. Exactly. That'll thin out the population.

It's thin out the population of people too, unfortunately.

Yeah.

The thing about them is that they did evolve around tigers. That's why they're so fast. Like, they'll jump a string faster than any animal I've ever seen in my life. I have a video of me shooting at an axis deer at 80 yards, and it's, uh, we have a slow-mo of the arrow.

Yeah.

So as the, the arrow's coming, it's a perfect shot within 10 yards of him, he hears it and he's gone. It's the craziest thing. Like, you look at it, you're like, how the fuck did he move that fast? This thing's going at least— well, from the actual, like, leaving the bow, it's going 275 feet per second. Yeah. And he can get out of there within 10 yards. Within 10 yards, he's hearing it coming and he's like, see ya.

Yeah.

And nowhere near him. Like, it— he was a foot in front of— it was a— the arrow landed a foot behind his ass. Geez, that's how fast they move. Yeah, it's crazy.

How long did you go there? For a while, or just kind of like a few times trips? Yeah.

We found that the best time to hunt is actually in the afternoon, because in the afternoon it's really windy, and when it's really windy, it covers your sound a little bit.

Okay.

The morning's rough. Yeah, the morning's rough. Like, the morning I got a couple of them in the morning, couple of times morning hunting I got a deer, but it's a lot of blown stalks. You got to walk super slow, you got to be real cautious. And again, there's a lot of high brush and you don't know where the fuck they're hiding. Yeah, you got to kind of find a pinch point.

Yeah, you jump one and the rest of them sound off the way they bark and all of that. It's pretty crazy.

Yeah, weird noise. What you got to kind of do is like find where they're going to be and just wait 'Cause they travel so much, they do so much moving. You think, I'm just gonna go, you know, still hunt and spot and stalk and I'll find one. You're almost better off just staying put. Yeah, just stay in put and wait for them because they're moving all over the place. There's so fucking many of them, it's crazy. Yeah, but it's amazing how unsuccessful people are bow hunting them.

Mm-hmm.

Rifle, it's a done deal. Yeah, if you want meat, and it's the best meat in the world, so it's great for the people that live there. It's incredible. I mean, they have access to to the best meat in the world, 100% they're gonna get a deer. And so if you have a— but if you have a bow, we went there and then— so I went with Remy, I went with John Dudley, Cam Haines, and Adam Greentree, like all seasoned bow hunters. Everybody got a deer and we made a podcast about it, we had a good old time. They had 150 people go over the next year and one was successful with a bow.

Yeah. That's crazy.

That's how hard it is. Because it's like, these fuckers are— they're dialed in, man. And they move.

A lot of people chasing them too. Yeah, I know the game, right?

365 days a year they get hunted. There's no season. And then they have snipers that are after them at night because, you know, they use it for meat for the restaurants and meat for people. And they just have to control the population. Yeah, there's so many of them and no predators.

Yeah, and still can't thin them out, right?

I know, it's crazy. I think they got a good head start. They eradicated them from the Big Island. Big Island?

Oh, did they?

Yeah, somebody tried to reintroduce them— or introduce I should say— to the Big Island, and they're like no, no, no, no, no, we know this is going good. He's gonna destroy people's crops and destroy people's gardens.

Take over!

And they already have plenty of wild pigs on the Big Island so they just whacked 'em all unfortunately.

It's kind of like the pigs here in Texas right now gone wild. You know growing up here when I was younger never remember being like how they are They don't stop.

They have 3 or 4 litters a year, and each litter has— I think they can have as many as 6 piglets.

It's crazy.

They just— and they can get pregnant 6 months old. At 6 months old, they can get pregnant.

They're ready to rock, and they're just spitting out pigs and just tearing, tearing shit up.

Yeah, I— we have a lease out here for hunting land, me and some of my friends, and the amount of pigs is disturbing. Warping. It's like you hear them everywhere. You hear them in the bushes. They're all over the fucking place. It's like most of Texas, probably, that's not like city has wild pigs in it.

Mm-hmm. Taking over, man.

And it all came over on boats. Yeah, that's how it all got here.

Is that how they got— yeah, yeah, it's importing them in.

Yeah, guys from Europe, they brought boats, and in the boats some of them brought pigs. And then they let them loose.

It's crazy, man, tearing stuff up. Yeah, I don't ever remember them being as bad as they were. No, last 15 years or so.

It's actually bad in California too, and California has them from William Randolph Hearst.

Didn't they take— didn't they like eradicate them off the Channel Islands out there?

I think so. They— I think the islands— and they had mule deer on some of the islands out there too, right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I forget which island had mule deer. But apparently they had like a— like you could go hunt on one of these islands.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think you— I think you might still be able to, like on Catalina or a couple, but maybe— do they really? They did, because I know my, my buddy Matt, he did it like maybe the last year, the year before, but I think they're trying to put a stop to it and, you know, and kind of stop it. That was— those Channel Islands are pretty interesting. I remember first moving out there, even just going out there 15 years ago, and seeing the islands out there, you know. And I'd ask people all around, I was like, man, what's the deal with these islands out there? And half the people that I would talk to, like, what are you talking about, islands? And I'm like, that island right out there. They're like, oh, I thought that was Long Beach, you know. I'm like, really? I was like, have you looked at a map? You know, I love maps. So I started, you know, doing some research and figuring out all about it. And, uh, they're really cool. And over the years I've met some really cool guys go out there a lot and spearfish. And just to go out there to them— and besides Catalina, like Santa Cruz and San Miguel, and then, you know, they're all like nature preserves and protected.

So it's like going back in time when you get out there. And I love it out there. It's such a, such a cool spot.

Did they try to— are they trying to eradicate deer from Catalina? I think I've read something about that. See if that's True. I think they were trying to remove the deer because they said the deer were non-native to the island.

Yeah, yeah, I think that's what they did with the, with the hogs. And I don't know, there's like a specific island fox out there.

Yeah, here it is. As of early 2026, California officials have approved a controversial plan to fully eradicate the non-native mule deer population on Santa Catalina Island to restore the ecosystem. Around 2,000 deer introduced in the 1930s for hunting will be removed by ground-based hunters to protect native biodiversity. Come on, that sounds crazy. How about just let people hunt them? Fuck wrong with you? So the issue is Catalina Island Conservancy considers the mule deer an invasive species that disrupts the ecosystem as they consume native plants and seedlings while spreading fire-prone invasive grasses. Really? I have— I just always worry about conservancies and their, their judgments on things like that because there's a lot of— they want to eradicate all the pigs from Texas, or the— from California rather. They think of them as non-native and they want them out too, but you're not going to. They want to eradicate the— there's like elk elk in California that are Yellowstone elk that were brought there in like the 1950s that they want to eradicate.

Like that too, like the tule elk?

No, they're actually, they're actually Rocky Mountain elk.

Okay.

Yeah, but they're, they're a larger breed of Rocky Mountain elk that they call yellow, apparently.

Like in the Sierras or down along the coast and so?

Tatchpee.

Tatchpee, yeah.

Up in that area, in those mountains. Big fucking elk, like 400-inch elk. Like a couple of those elk out there that are in front, that's what they're from.

There's—

that's—

that's from there. Those are massive.

Yeah, that's from Tahoe Ranch.

Okay.

Yeah.

And oh yeah, it's like going up over the Grapevine.

Exactly.

That's where you got those?

Uh-huh.

Wow, I had no idea that they were that big out there.

It's all— it's the biggest private ranch in California. It's like 270,000 acres.

I've heard of the ranch, but I didn't know they had elk like that up there. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, one of the rare places. Gorgeous fucking place. But they also go up— it's kind of funny— they go up to— there's a golfing community higher up in Tachpeh, and the elk just hang out on the golf course. Just giant elk, like 400-inch elk, just chilling, hanging out together on the golf course, and dudes are playing golf.

That's why—

while they're lying down next to them, like 20 yards away. It's crazy.

I've seen it. I saw some one time I was driving up the coast. Coast. I think I was going up to San Francisco to play a gig, and, uh, maybe they're the tule elk. I'm not sure what they were, but I was along the coast there, and I looked over in a field, and there was like 30 head of them just laying down over there. I'm like, oh man, I didn't even know there were elk down here. It's just— I love seeing, uh, wildlife that in unexpected places, you know?

Yeah, they recently just found a wolf.

Or unexpected for me anyway. Oh really?

Yeah, see, see if you can find the story about that wolf that they just discovered in Los Angeles.

There's a mama, mama bear, black bear with 3 cubs now running around in Topanga.

Oh yeah, yeah, there's a lot of those.

A lot of lions running around.

Um, there's a lot of, uh, a lot of bears. I've seen them in Pasadena and people's pools.

I knew that there's a bunch out in Pasadena and like, look at this, Glendale.

Wolf detected in Los Angeles County for the first time in more than a century. Crazy. And that— nuts. Yeah, those guys can fucking travel. I had a lady on who was a wolf biologist, and she was talking about like the, you know, they'd collar some of these wolves and they would track them. They would go 500 miles. Yeah, like it's kind of insane.

I didn't know that. Yeah, that's incredible.

Well, that's how they learned about them. It's really the only way to tell, so like put a collar on them and track them by GPS. And, you know, they mean— they're extraordinary animals.

Like, where were they originating from in Montana, Wyoming? And how— where were they going, the ones that they're tracking?

I think the ones that they were tracking were the part of the group that was brought in, you know, in the 1990s, you know. So there was that pack and the subsequent packs that came after that. There were all the reintroduced wolves. And so they would, you know, dart and collar some of them. And when they would do that, they just tracked their motion.

They're like, Jesus, covering some ground.

They're covering some ground. And it's interesting too that they actually make mountain lions kill more deer.

Good, competing with them.

Yeah, because the mountain lions kill a deer and then the wolves will steal it. Oh, so they'll come up on the mountain lion and they surround them, and the mountain lion will go, fuck this, I'm out of here, and he'll just go kill another deer.

Deer.

So he doesn't even get a chance to eat his deer because the wolves keep stealing his deer.

Keep tracking the lions, probably just following them around, uh, they're smart, dirty work. Yeah, they do.

They let them do the dirty work and then they steal their work.

Smarter, not harder, huh? So it's—

what does it say? The wolf that they found?

Yeah, this is from when, uh, February when they first spotted it.

So the wolf was born 2023, Plumas County's— where's Plumas County? It's traveled more than 370 miles.

Wow.

Including crossing State Route 59 near Tachipi. There you go. Yeah, they had one up in Tachipi too that a buddy of mine— it was actually closer to the city that's down there. What's that fucking city?

Bakersfield.

Bakersfield. Yeah, exactly. Wildlife officials now estimate at least 60 wolves live in the state. Wow.

One crossed over in 2011. Wow.

From California, from Oregon. So So they find him in the Tatchapi Mountains. Interesting. Biologist told newspaper— biologist told newspapers that she could encounter a mate in the nearby regions such as Tatchapi Mountains, potentially forming a new pack or continue to roam. What was that picture you just had of the elk? Yeah, that's that golf course. Look at that giant fucking elk chilling on the golf course.

Clash flag.

Yeah, look how beautiful that is. God, so pretty out out there. Massive elk.

Oak Tree Country Club, perfect sanctuary for them, right? Oh yeah, man.

And it's just, it adds to the coolness of playing golf. I mean, you're playing golf around giant beautiful animals.

I bet those greenskeepers love them though, right?

They probably fuck up all kinds of things up there. Yeah, it's, uh, the wolf thing is interesting because they, they just brought them back to Aspen. And they did a really stupid thing. They brought them into an area where it has a lot of livestock, and they brought them in from a place in Oregon where these wolves had all been captured because they were killing agriculture.

Yeah.

So what did they do? They captured them and they dropped them off in Colorado where they started killing cows.

In the national park.

They're just doing it. Well, it's on people's— my friend's ranch. One of them, they dropped 3 wolves off on my friend's ranch.

That's tough, man. I've heard that even with the bears and stuff, you know, you get some problem bears or whatever, and then they go drop them out where the farmers and ranchers are living. You know, it's like, man, how's that gonna work?

Well, it's the people in charge of these things that are making these decisions. They don't understand what they're doing. They're monkeying around with wildlife, nature, biology, and you don't know what you're doing. Yeah, you don't. You have no idea. Also, like, how the fuck do you in good conscience take a wolf that's used to killing cows and put them around other people's cows?

Yeah, it's already programmed. The dinner bell's ringing. It knows exactly how to do it.

It knows it's easy. They're all fenced in. They taste delicious. Why would it stop?

Or why would it— yeah, why would it chase tougher prey, right?

So now these poor ranchers have to have people monitoring their cows 24/7. They have to have cowboys up all night that are wandering around and on horseback and just looking for wolves. I mean, it's a disaster. They've killed dozens of cows.

And these are folks that, you know, have been been, like we said, surviving on this land for generations and dealing with that and, you know, have a history with managing that stuff. You know, it'd probably be the folks I'd want to ask. Yeah. How to handle it, you know.

Well, they would certainly tell you don't let the wolves in.

Yeah.

And if you do, kill them.

Mm-hmm.

You know, but now it's gotten to the point where I think they're going to have to do something about them.

Well, they put a hunting limit on them. Them. You think?

Honestly, that would probably do something, but really what you should do is hire someone to recapture them and don't drop them off there. Don't drop them off in fucking Aspen, you idiot, because they're gonna eat people's poodles too. Okay, they don't give a shit. Well, if they run out of cows, if somehow another rancher scare them away from the cows and they make it into the town of Aspen, you don't think they're gonna eat your golden retriever? They're gonna eat all kinds of dogs. Dogs in Alaska all the time. Time.

Yeah, yeah. I hear a lot of those, like the lions and stuff, man, coming after your kids. Yeah, you know, there's been that Malibu Creek Park, you know, I've heard a couple of incidents there, you know, hits. Like, man, they're, they're gonna go eat something, especially when they're old.

Yeah, when they get old, mm-hmm, you know, they can't catch a deer anymore. Yeah, they're hungry and they haven't eaten in a few days, and then they see a kid hanging around a little too close to the outside of the woods.

I got a big one that comes right by my house. I got a little game trail camera set up and I got a little fountain right in the front. It doesn't come around when I'm there because we got the dogs, you know, a lot. But, uh, whenever I'm out of town for weeks at a time, I'll come back and that sucker's just laying on my front porch, just massive. And then the other day, a friend of mine was taking the trash out, and this— it was like around lunchtime, and it jumped over the fence into the driveway and had a dead rabbit in its mouth, just looking at her, you know. And she's like, holy shit, they're there, you know. So every time I'm even walking around by myself or with the dogs, you're just like, man, sucker just be in a tree looking at me right now.

Yeah, you're just living with monsters. Yeah. Whoo!

They're there.

California spent more than $100 million trying to make a bridge over— I forget which freeway it is. Is it the 101? I think you're right. So they spent over $100 million and it's still not done.

Oh my god.

For a bridge! A bridge for the mountain lions. Like, you fucking dorks. Oh, it's like this idea of like it's going to be a bridge, but it's going to have dirt and grass on it. So encourage them to walk across so they don't have to go over the highway and die.

It's a bit nicer than the roads we're driving on.

Yeah. Well, $110 million is crazy and it's still not even done. Like, it is like it's, it's so crazy. So that's what it— early 2026.

It's like going up to Ventura, right? Yeah.

Yeah, so they want to have this, this big dirt mound and this bridge so the animals can get across the highway, but it's just like, it's so goofy. And they never want people to do anything about the population of mountain lions, regardless of how out of control they are. They don't do anything about it. They have to hire people. The state has to hire people to go and get the bad mountain lions, the ones that are problems. Yeah, and when they capture them, one of the things they find out is they're— when they actually kill them right? So one of the things they find out when they examine their diet, it's like 50% pets. Yeah, 50% dogs and cats. That's what your mountain lions are eating.

That's crazy. Yeah.

And they spend money, like a lot of money, going after these mountain lions. And instead, they could make money by letting people hunt these mountain lions and giving them tags and control the numbers. In that place, Tohone Ranch, one of my buddies works there, and they have a trail camera set up on a pond, and they found 16 different cats that were drinking out of that pond.

Oh my gosh, that's insane. I was like, when I first started going out there too, the coyotes, you know, and even around like in Hollywood and stuff, you know, man, I swear I just saw a coyote running down the street with a pair of sunglasses on, a gold chain, eating better than any of us.

When I went there in '94, that was the first time I ever saw a coyote. I couldn't believe it. I was staying at the, you know, they have those furnished apartments, the Oakwood furnished apartments?

Oh no, not really.

Temporary, like for people that are like, don't have a house yet and you gotta move to California quick, they have this place called Oakwoods and you go in there, it's already got a couch, it's already got a TV, it's already got a bed. You're like, okay.

Like an Airbnb type of thing?

Yeah, almost like you just move in. And I was driving up to the entrance to the place and I see these little dogs on the street. I was like, what the fuck is going on? He's done.

That ain't no dog.

I was like, oh my God, they're coyotes. Like, this is weird. And so this is like '94. I had never seen a fucking coyote. I'd never heard of a coyote being out just wandering in the street. I just couldn't believe it that they just wander around on the concrete.

Man, it's— they're everywhere. I feel like I've seen more there than anywhere. You see them more in town than you do anywhere else.

Yeah, they— well, they have large populations of them in downtown where they know where they den up. They den up in certain warehouse buildings.

Okay, abandoned buildings and under bridges and freeways and stuff.

Yeah, they like— they live there.

They probably keep the natural— take back over one day, won't it?

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

I think they probably keep the rat population in check though. Yeah, if you think about it.

Yeah, I keep a lot of other things in check too, right? Cats.

Well, there's a terrible video from Woodland Hills a few years back where a guy was unloading his car and his toddler was out there in the grass.

I saw that.

And the coyote grabbed his toddler and tried to run away with his kid.

Yeah, I saw that, man. I, you know, I'm always watching around for stuff and with my kiddos or just people around the neighborhood and stuff. You gotta remind yourself, you know, they're there and they're not scared of you. They're not afraid. I remember one of the first times I went up to Ojai, just north north of LA there, you know. I just wanted to go up there and go hike around and check out the area. And, uh, there was, uh, an archery shop up there, and I had this old guy kind of looked like Charlie Daniels, just big overalls, big old beard, you know. And I walked in there and just to check out the shop and also just ask him about, you know, some areas to go stomp around in. And I had an Australian Shepherd dog at the time, and, uh, just ask him where, you know, good places to go stomp around. He said, yeah, you know, you go up there. He goes, but I wouldn't take your dog with you. I was like, really? Why? He's like, man, those lions are real deal up here, you know. He's like, you— he goes, you won't see them, you know, until they're on you, you know.

And I just— yeah, I knew they're lions and stuff like that, but hearing it from, from that guy, you know, maybe he's trying to scare me a little bit, but you know, there's— I— it's, uh, it's real deal.

It's real. It's real. And they try to downplay it because the— all the all the wildlife lovers, all the greenies. They don't want you like sounding the alarm and killing them. Yeah, but their goal is to have zero hunting. Their goal is to have all the animals just balance each other out.

I ain't gonna happen.

You can't.

It's not with humans in the mix.

No, the humans have interrupted that whole idea, right? So if you've got a city and then you've got wild giant predators like a 170-pound that are killing dogs. And they're like, you gotta control them.

Can't manage one without managing the other, right?

And so the first— what the first thing they did to stop people from doing it is they banned hunting with dogs. So if you ban hunting with dogs, guess what? You basically— you're killing most of the hunting. Because the reality of mountain lions is you can't find them. They're really hard to find, really hard to catch, really hard to find. And the best way to control their population is to treat them and you get dogs to treat, because that way you know if it's a tom or if it's a female, you know if it's mature, you know what size it is, you have a really accurate estimation. You can look up at it, oh, that's a mature tom, that's what we're looking to kill. And then you can control their population. Yeah, that's the only way. Same with bears.

It's just— see what it is and decide if it needs to go or if it needs to stay, right?

Yeah, but they do little things to stop stop the effective hunting first. So California, you can still hunt for black bears, but you can't use dogs anymore. And so as soon as they stopped the use of dogs, the amount of black bears they harvested went way down. Yeah, the amount of bears in the population went way up.

Yeah, I don't think they've— I mean, I know they've been around in Pasadena a lot, but I don't think there's been one in Topanga for a while. I mean, I've been up there, shoot, almost 15 years and hadn't heard of one. This is the first time one's kind of made it over into that area that I know of anyway. Maybe up, you know, around the Malibu Creek and those state parks.

But in Topanga, there's probably people feeding them.

Oh, 100%.

I've got berries for you, my friend.

Giving them weed, some berries.

Topanga is great, but it always catches me out if a fire catches.

Oh man, we got hit hard last year, as you know, the Palisades stuff. And man, I I didn't— that was kind of it for me too. I was like, I'm out, you know.

It's terrifying.

Yeah, I've evacuated out of there several times over the years, but, um, I've got horses up there now and stuff like that. And luckily I had like a, a— always keep a big truck and a trailer just in case. And I've got some friends down in Burbank that have some stables, you know, that I'll have like as a backup plan. And, uh, but this was just a different deal. I, as the crow flies, I could see the smoke from the Palisades, you know, it's like a mile away. And we were actually working in our arena there, and smoke came up, and I was like, "Shoot, let's just go." Every time I see the smoke, like, I don't wait. I'm just like, "We'll be the first ones out and beat the mad rush of everybody that's gonna decide to try to stay." And loaded up the trailer and the truck and the camper and the dogs and all that stuff, and I was like, "Let's go." And my wife and I went down to Burbank, And I remember we were driving through the night, and the wind was just howling like I've never seen before. And power lines are snapping, and it's just like trees are coming down.

And it just felt like the end of the world, you know? And we get to Burbank, and we pull back in these stables, and there's kind of a big cinder block wall. And I just got as close to that as I could, because it was blocking the wind, you know, from hitting us. The next morning I woke up and my throat was sore and hurting. I could hardly breathe. And I opened the camper door and the Altadena fire had started and it was right there. And so it was just a mountain of black smoke coming over the top of us there. And so I was like, "Let's go and let's get out of here. Let's head north." And I had some friends in Moorpark, up in that area going towards Ventura that had horses, trying to find some places to go with some horses. And they're like, "Yeah, come on up here." So we went up there, stayed there a night, and then they cut all the power off up in that area. Scary because the winds were snapping power lines and they were worried about fires. And, and, you know, after doing that a few nights, and I was like, let's just head east and go to Texas, you know.

There's always so, so many friends you can like show up with 5 horses and a bunch of dogs, you know, like, hey, we're gonna stay for a while, you know.

Especially in California.

Yeah, we're like, let's just get out of here, uh, and headed back. And you didn't know when we were going to make it back, and you know, closed indefinitely or whatever. I was just like, man, I'm, I'm over it.

I got evacuated a bunch of times when I lived there, but the last one was, uh, 2018. And, uh, when the last one, we got out early. I came home from The Comedy Store and we saw fire coming over the top of this hill, and it was probably like 1 o'clock in the morning. Me and my wife were sitting there. I go, what do you think? And she's like, let's get the fuck out of here. Like, let's get the fuck out of here. Let's just grab some and maybe it'll come this way, maybe it won't. So it didn't burn the house down, but my neighbors, the front, front 3 neighbors all lost their house. And my next-door neighbor, his, his roof caught on fire. But my friend who refused to leave, he stayed in the neighborhood and protected his house and guided firefighters. He brought the firefighters to that house and showed them that it just started on this guy's roof, and they hosed it down. They stopped it in its tracks. but it was pretty fucking bad.

But it's wild because, you know, it's gonna burn. I mean, it's not a matter of, you know, if, it's just when. And I mean, that's— canyons have been burning like that for thousands of years. And yeah, even the Chumash were setting them on fire on purpose to get ahead of it, right? And control and all of that stuff. And now there's just so many houses and communities back up in there. It's just a— it's a tough thing. But when they hit, man, they're— it's— they just They're rolling through, how fast they come through. Those Santa Ana winds are blowing like that.

And it's just very surreal in person. You can watch it on the news and you kind of get a feeling of it, but when you're there and you're driving down the 101 and you look at the side of the highway and you see like these hills in the distance are just covered in fire, hundreds of yards of fields of fire just making their way over the top of this hill and burning houses.

We saw it when the Palisades thing was starting. From our house, there's kind of a little mountain that comes up on the back, and I hiked up there and was watching it, and you could see the smoke, and then you could start seeing little flickers of the flames. And then it was just like somebody dumped gasoline on this thing. And I mean, the flames shot up hundreds of feet into the air. And my wife was on the balcony of the house, and I'm kind of up on this little mountain. I'm looking over, looking in her eyes. I'm like, "Start packing up. I'll go hook up the horse trailer. I'll be up to say, let's load up and just—" And the wind was blowing offshore then, so the fire's on the coast. And just depending on how that wind is blowing, at the beginning it was blowing offshore, and then within half an hour it just shot up the coastline and just ripped up through Malibu and burned all that coast. That's the stuff that you always thought was the safest, right? You know, yeah. And then the next day the wind shifts coming back onshore and it blows it back towards Burbank, you know, going back up like the 4th up that way.

And then the winds are shifting again and then coming back across, you know. So I was amazed at the— through some of the fires that I've been through, seeing the firefighters up there, those guys are incredible, man. Those helicopter pilots the airplane pilots, seeing those tankers fly through there. I mean, it's just incredible what those guys can do. I mean, if it hadn't— I mean, they saved that whole canyon. Yeah, of Topanga at least, you know. It's like, man, there's so much brush in there that probably needs to burn. It's been accumulating over years, you know. And cutting those fire breaks and seeing them drop the retardant on the ridgelines and stuff and watching the wind, it's just like, man, Hats off to those guys.

Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, think about the amount of damage that was done in that fire and how much more would have been done if it wasn't for the firefighters.

That's how crazy it is. Yeah. Yeah, it is, man. I met one of the helicopter pilots. I was on a flight somewhere and we just happened to be sitting next to each other and we were talking about it and just, you know, learning from him, you know, about, you know, the thermals that come up from underneath and trying to hold those helicopters in formation and all that stuff and how heavy they are when they're full. Right. And then as soon as you release all that water, whatever's in them, all of a sudden the power that they got, throttle's full throttle when they're loaded down and then they drop all that water and then trying to get back a hold of it.

Oh, I never even thought of that. Yeah. Must have been an enormous difference.

And then you got 90-mile-an-hour winds blowing and, you know. And you— I could see them from the house, you know. There'd be like 2 or 3 helicopters that would come in, start dropping water, and then they would move out. And then the tank— the planes would come in, and then helicopters back in. Then you had the guys on the ground, you know, trying to contain it as well. Just the coordinated effort between them, you know. I can imagine the conversations there. Yeah.

Hey, man. It's so crazy that they didn't have the reservoirs ready. So sad. I had Spencer Pratt on, you know, he's running for mayor now. He was explaining it, like how bad it was. Yeah.

How do you fuck that up that bad? It's devastating to hear that. It's like, you know, that that stuff's coming. Yeah. You know, it's just— did not be prepared for that. It's just completely unacceptable.

Incompetence. Yeah, just complete total incompetence. And yet they still are there. Like, you're definitely not good at the job. And yet you don't take any personal responsibility and you blame everybody else. And the problem, just fucking— it's a problem that happens every few years. Like, you're gonna get fires, period. The fact that you don't have a full reservoir is crazy. It's crazy. Dump all your resources into fixing that fucking reservoir, stat. Get it filled up.

The residents are more prepared than anybody. Yeah, you know, cuz I think they It just got to where you can't depend on it. I know our neighbors and stuff have a pretty good program in place. We'll all get together and talk about who's got fire hoses and swimming pools with access to water and evacuation plans. There's some folks that have horses, but they don't even have a horse trailer up there. I'm like, "Okay, I'll come get yours too," or whatever we need to do. You kind of just have to have that mentality, I think, you know.

Yeah, definitely, definitely. It's, you know what's really freaking me out about like the Palisades is what is in the ground now, you know, like how much toxic shit got melted into the ground. Because think about how many people have electric cars now.

Well, the house, old houses too, you know, I'm talking about, right, the materials that they're made out of, asbestos. Or lead. I mean, the stuff in the air that was— even if you were several miles away from the actual fires, the wind and blowing all the ashes and the smoke and all that stuff over. I remember going back up in there, you know, weeks and just trying to get stuff out of the house or whatever when they'd let us back up. And you could still— it would just make your throat hurt, you know, breathing that air and stuff. So, right, that's bad stuff.

It's not just wood fire. Yeah, no, I mean, No, like chemicals. Yeah, wood fires hard enough, but the chemicals— burnt TVs and computers and hard drives and electronics and refrigerators, treated lumber. Yeah, all that shit's gonna get in your groundwater. Mm-hmm. Like, it's, it's, it's on the surface, it's gonna rain, it's gonna seep through. Like, what happens to the water? Is anybody checking the water out there? You know, you gotta imagine, I doubt About it, especially like Topanga. I bet a lot of folks have wells, don't you think?

I think there's some, you know, it's definitely all like on septic up there too, you know. I mean, all the, all of the building code stuff's got pretty crazy up there. I don't know, it's just a mess.

I would just worry about even breathing the air that has the dust of all that shit in it. Mm-hmm. Like, I probably wouldn't want to live there anymore if, if I was in a place where all the houses burnt to the ground and I knew there was toxic shit in the ground, I'd be like, hey, let's get the fuck out of here and sell our house to China. Oh man, uh, because that was the other thing Spencer said. They're the ones who are the number one land buyers in the Palisades. It's China.

Is it going to be a— is it going to be a golf course resort up there before we know it?

Who knows? Yeah, or affordable housing. Yeah, one or the other. I don't know either. I don't know, but it's just, I, I really wonder what the long-term damage of all those chemicals in the ground is. It has to be pretty high.

Gotta be. You know, I don't know. You know, I was talking to some friends of mine out the other day that have grown up there, lived out there their whole lives, and, you know, going over the Channel Islands, you know, they got those oil platforms out there in the water, and there's been oil spills obviously throughout there through history. And, but also like when you're surfing and stuff like that, there's oil that's been on top of the ground. It's just like so surface level. It's been there for millions of years, you know? So, I don't know. You know? It's like, I'm sure all the toxic stuff that happens, how long does it take for it to dilute? You know? There's not much rain, or the wind, or like, what, you know? I'm not an expert on it, but I feel like Mother Nature takes pretty good care of herself. You know, we're the ones in trouble, right?

Right. Mother Nature will sort it out over time, but I just don't know how good it's gonna be for the people that live there.

It can't be the long-term. Term, you know.

I have a buddy that has a house out there and he lost his house and burnt down, and I asked him about it. He said, I think what they're going to do is take all the dirt out of their backyard and then replace the dirt. And I'm like, okay, I don't know if that's enough. Like, because what about his dirt? What about your neighbor's dirt? What about the— all the toxic shit that's in his dirt that's going to get down into your ground as soon as it rains?

And also, along with all the Roundup and everything else coming down, you know. It's just, it's sad, man, you know? It's sad. That's just the kind of state of it. It's like, it seems like just it's so far of a mess that even the folks that do have answers that do want to fix stuff, it just kind of becomes impossible for any solution, you know? It's like all the red tape and all the hoops and things and all the permits or whatever. Like, you can't even, you know, the road's blocked. Okay, well, before we could even get somebody out here with a tractor to move the rocks, you got to call 10 and other people to get it approved, and then the process, and then it's not— and it's like, that's the part I'm just like, man, I wish I could just call Frank down the street with his bulldozer. We'll just go, we'll just go move this right now, you know?

And it's like, you know, well, government has increased so much in California, and they just want more regulations so they could justify more government. And so they just regulate themselves to a place where people just want to leave. They just go, look, I can't fucking do this anymore, let me get out of here.

And it's expensive, man. It's so expensive to live there, you know.

Meanwhile, it's beautiful. It's such a great place. They fucked it up so hard. It's paradise.

It's paradise. The mountains within like 2-3 hours, you can be in the Sierras, you can be in Joshua Tree National Park, skiing.

Yeah. And then swim in the ocean on the same day. It's gorgeous.

Yeah, beautiful places I've ever been. Yosemite.

I mean, get out of town, you know. Incredible weather. Kern River, man, it's beautiful. But they got ruined. They got ruined with progressive politics and bureaucracy that just ramped up all the control they have over people to the point where you can't even buy flavored Zins. They banned blackjack. You can't have blackjack anymore. They just stopped blackjack in the casinos. They stopped flavored Zins. They just, they just regulated into oblivion. There are all these people that want to be, they want to be the mommy of the world and tell you what to do. Like, fuck off. Yeah, like, fuck off with all your goddamn rules. You're just making your government bigger so you can justify all these fucking rules, and you need the rules for the government to sustain itself, so you just keep adding more rules and adding more government. Yeah, we were reading about it the other day. Like, what was the number? The California government went up by like 24% and their population went up by like 1%.

I know, now you're running— kind of, we're running out of places to go.

I forget what the actual numbers were that we found, but it's—

yeah, I'm always looking for hideouts, you know, to kind of get away from. It's like, man, you find a spot to go to, you kind of don't want to tell nobody about it, right?

You know, that's what I hear about West Texas.

I think that was hard about Montana, you know, when I first started going up there years ago. I mean, it was just such a— and still is— it's a paradise. It's just, you know, and I think that's probably what a lot of people are upset about. Lived up there, it's like, man, the secret got out a little bit. And I can understand that, but I get it.

I get it from that perspective.

They got to let that go. Where's the next place?

You know, the thing about Montana though, or like Wyoming, another example, is that winter will thin the herd.

It's like West Texas. That's funny, same kind of thing, like, you know, Marfa and out in that area. I grew up all out there going to junior rodeos and all kinds of stuff, and it was just ranches, you know, and local diners and stuff like that. And I hear people going out there and buying houses and all that stuff, then they go out there for like a week and they realize that the only thing open at night's the Dairy Queen, and they're heading back to New York pretty quick. But the thing you're right about, Monty, those winters, thin them out.

Yeah, winter gets you. The winter's rough. It's cold. Yeah, we were— the first time I ever went hunting was with Ranella. That's where I got that mule deer that's on the table right there. And it was 9 degrees in October and we're camping, and so we're sleeping on the ground at 9 degrees. I'm like, bro, how did these fucking people— and you also, you go by buy these old homesteads. So they were giving land out there for people. You just— you can get a chunk of land, just start farming on it, and the government was encouraging people to move there. But yeah, it's all this like muddy ground. Like the ground is like mucky. Like when you hike in it, after, you know, a while, your boots are so heavy because they're just thick with this clay. Yeah, just muck all over your boots. And so it's not fertile, it's not good. Like in the Missouri Breaks, like that area, it's not good for growing things. So you find these abandoned homesteads, it's really eerie. Yeah, man, you just think like this family that came out here in like the 1800s and they tried to set up shop and maybe got killed by Indians, and you know, maybe all the way.

I think about my family and I've got stories, you know, of them settling in New Mexico And, you know, coming out on a covered wagon with maybe a steer and a pig and then like, yeah, here's a bunch of acres and you got to prove it up, you know, and dig a hole in the ground is what they're living in, a dugout, you know, and dig a hole in the ground. That's where you're living. And you try to build a ranch out of it. And I always laughed. I was talking to family or my grandparents. I was like, why did y'all stop here? You just like, you were so beat down. You're like, Oh, this is the driest, flattest place, you know, but we're here, the most roughest, you know. I was like, it's only maybe another thousand miles out to California, or just keep going. They're like, nope, this is it, we're done, you know.

Yeah, I guess people didn't know what they were gonna find if they kept going either. Like, you want to keep going for like another month?

Oh yeah, just miles and miles of more desert and no water, you know. I mean, how long would that wagon trail take? Weeks. Yeah, even just like Missouri, Texas, and then out to— through what— even like just going through West Texas to get to, you know, Southeast New Mexico and all that. And then you're in, you know, that's just rough country, and the people have always been tough out there.

And you're a sitting duck. Yeah, you're a sitting duck. You're slow-moving with a wagon pulling the horse, and you got all your shit in the wagon, and they just looking at you from the hills Yeah, whoo, wasn't glamorous.

No, I know my, you know, my granddad was pretty tough old guy and is real a cowboy as you'd ever want to know or meet, you know. But he wasn't really one to ever brag or, you know, talk or fantasize or romanticize about the cowboy stuff, you know, because it, it wasn't romantic then, you know. It was survival and it was rough and it was work and you had no running water. And I remember him having a conversation with this guy, and he was like some, like a tech guy, you know, invented all this website shit or whatever. And he was asking my granddad, he said, you know, what's the most, you know, important invention of your lifetime? And I think he was expecting my granddad to say like the computer or the internet, and my granddad said refrigeration was the most important invention, you know. Yeah, he was growing up, he was like, they had no way to keep their food cold cold, you know, like root cellar, you kept it underground, you know. So it was just a perspective, you know. I think everybody was surprised to hear it.

Yeah, well, I think people are so accustomed to electricity and so accustomed to things like refrigeration. Yeah, just like running water. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, when there was no refrigeration, you had to eat what you had, you know, like that day, and then the next day you had to get something else. Yeah. And And unless you knew a place that was an ice house, you know, that would get a giant chunk of ice and you could have an ice box and stick it in there and cool things, like, you're fucked.

Yeah, you're on your own. Yeah.

Well, you had to learn how to dry meat. That was a lot of it. Make pemmican, dry meat, make things that'll survive and last. You know, that's how also how market hunting almost wiped out all the deer in this country, because people needed fresh meat every day. Mm-hmm. So they were just shooting everything that existed. Yeah. And then finally they started looking around and going, hey, we lost all the elk, there's no more deer left, like, let's make some fucking regulations on this shit. And they stopped market hunting.

I did not know that.

Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, beginning of the 1800s. By, you know, the time— I guess, when did they start doing regulations in terms of hunting regulations in this country? Because obviously they wiped out almost entirely the American bison. There's— they're almost gone completely. And, you know, a lot of that was just for tongues. Nah, man, that's crazy. Yeah, they would send them back east, they would pickle their tongues.

Didn't Steve Rannell actually have a— something like a show on them. My buddy was telling me, I haven't seen it yet. It's really interesting. He's talking about the history of the bison and hunting and all of that.

Yeah, yeah. I think his book's called American Buffalo, but it's really good. Um, first hunting regulations appeared in colonial laws in the 1600s, mainly as seasonal close seasons for certain game like deer. In terms of nationwide U.S. law, the first major federal game protection statute was the Lacey Act of 1900, which targeted commercial and market hunting and interstate trade in illegally taken wildlife. Yeah, there was elk in every state. Yeah. And then we wiped them out. And there was deer in every state. But now there's more deer than there ever has been before, which is interesting. Congress passed the Lacey Act when modern regulations start. So the 1900s, most states states had game and fish commissions, hunting seasons, bag limits, and license requirements, all reinforced by federal laws like the Lacey Act and later migratory bird protections. Well, it's amazing that they did that. We have an amazing system too, like the, the fact that the United States has so much public land. You know, there's so many different places where people can go and they can hike, they can whitewater raft, they can fish, they hunt, they can camp. I mean, we're unlike any country when it comes to that.

It's like the amount of land that we have that's available to Americans, that every— it's public for everybody.

Yeah, it's fucking incredible. Yeah, I mean, being up in Montana— New Mexico's like that too, in California— but up in Montana, what I love, you know, staying in that wilderness area, like that little cabin that I stayed in, you know, probably didn't have much land with the cabin, but man, it There's thousands and thousands of acres of wilderness public land with dirt roads everywhere. Man, I would, you know, on those days off that I had, I would just drive back in there for miles, man, and just see the most beautiful country, you know. And I'd haul my horse back in the way to the trailheads and just go explore stuff, you know. And you'd go over one ridge into the next, and there's a waterfall, and there's another drainage, and it's just like, you know, this is the wilderness area too. This isn't even a national park, you know. Like, man, this is as beautiful country as I've ever seen. Did you run into any grizzlies? I never did, you know. I was always on my toes about it. And I'd talk, you know, knowing Remy up there, he knew that area really well, so I'd kind of ask him spots to go check out and about bears and stuff.

And he said, man, there weren't too many grizzlies back in there, but you never know, you you know, especially coming over from Idaho and stuff like that. So I never did. I've run into some black bears, never any wolves and all that. But, you know, I don't know, maybe being horseback too, I don't know, a lot of those places, right? Did. But I definitely had my eyes open.

Yeah, that's another animal that they want to list again and make them available for hunting, particularly in Montana and Wyoming. They just have a lot of grizzlies. Yeah, they have a lot, and people don't want you to shoot them. They think of it as trophy hunting or whatever it is.

Like, it's tough, man. But man, you live— like you say, like those folks that live back up in there, you know, they all— they have is their neighbors and people to depend on, you know. And it's like, man, you get mauled by a bear taking your trash out, you know, or something like that. That's what you— your experiences with them. And, you know, everybody wants to keep them as pets until they're in the backyard with you.

Yeah, they don't play by the rules. Yeah, they don't play play by the rules and they're 900 pounds. Good luck. That 900-pound giant fucking wild animal that eats everything it can.

Yeah, even like that, that lion hanging around my house, I was like, man, cool, you're fine, but once you go on down the road, you know, yeah, I don't need you in my backyard.

The thing is that you can't do anything about it either. In Texas you could just shoot them. Yeah.

And yeah, we don't have that problem.

Yeah, that's how it should be. Yeah, like you shouldn't have wild monsters living in your yard.

No, you should have— you should have the right to decide that for yourself.

100%. Not only that, they're gonna be fine. There's still gonna be plenty of them. Yeah, okay, but it'll probably be a more healthy number if they get whacked whenever they eat someone's dog.

Yeah, and have a healthy respect for coming in your backyard or coming after your animals or your kids.

Yeah, yeah, they, they should understand that But just like, we're so goofy. We make laws to protect them that don't protect us. Like, help me out. Like, do you love animals more than people? Like, I love animals, but I'm, I'm on team people. Yeah, 100%. Yeah, everybody else is cool, but team people first. Yeah, you know, oh, we got monsters in our neighborhood, and then, no, no, no, we gotta kill the monsters so that kids can play outside. You don't have to worry about them getting eaten.

Yeah, me too. I mean, growing up ranching or farming or whatever, I mean, that's your job is to take care of animals, you know. Yes, animal husbandry. It's, it's, that's your job. I mean, to take care and provide for these animals, to provide food for your family, you know, and, and the wildlife that's around it, you know. It's like, and to take care of the land and the dirt and and the water and the grasses and all of that stuff has to be supporting each other to make it all work, you know. And at the end of the day, I just feel like we've just lost touch.

It's cities, you know, it's urban environments, it's unnatural environments that have given people this delusional idea of what our relationship is with nature. And, you know, people just think food comes from a restaurant. Yeah. And, you know, the ground is for streets and you drive sidewalks. Yeah, pave it all. It's all just this delusional perspective that comes from that sort of urban existence. And I just think that's why people that live in the country and live in, you know, environments where, like Alaska, where you're confronted by nature, like, more interesting people. They're more robust. They're cooler. Were you saying out there earlier that you rode bull bulls? Mm-hmm. Yeah, dude. How many times?

Shoot, I started when I was a kid, you know, riding steers when I was like 10 in the junior rodeos.

And then you were 10 years old and someone let you ride a fucking steer? Really? That's—

it was just like, it was like Little League baseball, you know, where I grew up.

So a steer is a bull that doesn't have its nuts? Yeah. And so how How much less do they kick when they don't have their nuts?

Oh, they're pretty dogs. This is you? Oh, you found the video. How old are you here? This is— I was like 17. This is in Monterrey, Mexico, actually. Wow.

Why in Mexico? Look at you, dog. Damn, that's crazy. Damn, dude, you're good. And you got off without getting stomped too.

Is it just knowing when to release? Yeah, you got to know, you got to know when to get off, that's for sure.

And right there, uh-huh, you're like, that's a wrap.

Yeah, he kind of bucked me off there. He kind of had me over to the side in the air, you know, but that's a good time to check out. There's like that gray zone, you know, either that or you hang on and you end up underneath them.

You started out when you were 10 years old though. How wild are your parents? Like, yeah, that's a good age.

Yeah, well, they've, you know, my, they've ranched and grew up out there, and my uncle rode bulls professionally. And oh really? Yeah. Yeah, and that's kind of how I got into it too. I looked up to him a lot and see pictures of him riding bulls, and then it was just around, and I was like, I want to try that, you know? And, and then I just got the bug for it, like, super young. I was like, just ate up with it.

Just— wow, from 10 years old? That's nuts. Yeah. And so how do you teach someone how to fall off of a bull without getting stomped when they're 10?

Well, when you're riding those little steers, you know, a lot of time they cut bulls and turn them to steers.

It makes them a lot more docile. Also.

What are you talking about? Steers are, you know, typically like 600 pounds, 600, 700 pounds, you know, compared to a 1,500-pound bull that's aggressive and, you know, back that wide and horns like that. You know, they're like little steer, you know. I remember my dad or uncle would get in the chute with me and hold their horns, you know, and like these times they just kind of run out there and jump and kick and not fall off on the side. Yeah, not too bad. And then you kind of graduate up into like the junior bulls and then the bigger bulls and then all— and then the harder they buck, you know. So there's kind of different levels you can progress as you, as you go. But it was a lot different deal back then when I was riding. It was really before the PBR started, you know. There was no helmets, there was no vests, there was like none of that stuff. It was just old-school rodeo, you know. But at the same time And I say that, but, you know, it's evolved into such a sport now. Like, the bulls are just so much ranker now than they were back then, you know?

It's like now they're breeding them like racehorses, and the genetics where every one of those bulls, you know, bucks, you know? And, like, you got to go to get on 3 or 4 of them in a night. You know, back when I was doing it, we'd go to the— they were still kind of full rodeos with all the other events. And, you know, out of 15 or 20 bulls, there might be 1 or 2 in there were like bad to get on. They would hurt you. The rest of them were pretty rideable, to say so. We're smoking cigarettes and drinking beer back behind the chute, so that kind of a thing. We weren't training and doing yoga and— like all these guys are today. I loved it. I had so much fun, and I loved the road part of it, getting in the truck with your best buds and go down the road on the weekends, and there's always a band playing. And, um, you know, it was just— it was so much fun. I love the culture of it, and it's just, uh, good times, you know.

How many times do you think you've rode bulls?

I mean, I rode till I was about 23.

From 10 to 23? Wow.

That was all I ever wanted to do. I was like, really? Yeah, I wanted to just ride bulls. Yeah. And And, uh, you know, I rode in high school, rode junior rodeos, rode bulls in high school. And then I went to Tarleton State in Stephenville and, uh, rode bulls for Tarleton. And then I got my pro card for a couple of years, and that was when like the PBR was like starting up and all of that. And, um, wow, it got intense.

Backwards on one. What, Jamie? There's one picture I just lost.

He was backwards backwards on it. Oh yeah, I was probably getting— there it is. That's probably getting dusted. Oh no, that's not— oh, that's not backwards. That guy is riding backwards. Yeah, backwards. Uh, I don't know if that's on purpose.

It seems like a ridiculous choice.

He pulled it off if he did.

Yeah, what a terrible choice.

Uh, yeah, it was cool though. I, I loved it, man.

I loved it. How do you go from that to anything else? Like, how do you stop riding bulls and eventually become an actor and a singer?

It was all very much a kind of a natural progression, you know. Since I was a kid at the junior rodeos, there was always a dance afterward and a band playing, you know. And it's a very much a family community deal, you know. Like, you go to these towns and it was the junior— the rodeo was going on and then the dance Street dance and food and music. And, you know, growing up listening to bands play, especially in Texas, you know, you got all the guys like Gary P. Nunn. I remember he always played the dance halls. And you get Robert Earl Keen and some of the, you know, growing up hearing those bands. And I moved to Laredo, Texas when I was like 16 or 17 with my dad, and my mother had bought me a guitar and I Didn't know how to play it much and walked into this place my dad was living at and he was playing dominoes with these guys and this guy saw my guitar and he's like, "Yeah, you know how to play that thing?" I said, "No." He said, "Well, let me see it." He picked it up and he played this killer mariachi song called "La Malagueña" and I was just fascinated with it.

I was just like, "Wow, I can't believe you made that guitar sound like that." I've been dragging that thing around for a couple years. I didn't I didn't even know how to tune it up. He's like, you want to learn how to play this guitar? I said, yeah. He said, let me show you this song. He taught me the Malagaña. It had a couple little parts, you know, fingerpicking part, strumming part, and it really kind of gave me that foundation, you know, just kind of those few little tools. And then I went up to Stephenville to ride bulls at Tarleton after that, and a couple other friends that I'd met there that rodeoed could play the guitar a little bit, and they had bands that played every week weekend in the town, there's a little bar there called City Limits where all these bands would come play, like Jason Boland and the Cross-Canadian Ragweed guys and Pat Green and Robert Earl Keen. Like, all the Texas guys would come play, you know. So I was like, I went from being on the border and you kind of just mostly like the corridos and Tejano bands that I would see, which was really cool.

But when I got up there, I was like, oh man, there's all these like cool kind of song, you know, guys writing the original music and songs and playing in bands and and we'd go watch them all the time. And as I was still rodeoing, the only song I knew was that Malagaña tune. So I was like, I gotta come up with some new stuff. This is all I know how to play. So I went and got a book of chords to teach myself some new chords on the guitar and just learn one or two at a time. And I'd start making up songs about our adventures on the weekends. A lot of it was just sitting in the back of the truck and being in places where you didn't have radio signal you know, nothing to really listen to. You're tired of listening to the same old stuff. And I'd make up songs. And then whatever town we would get to, my buddies would be like, man, play that song you were singing in the back seat, you know. And so that's how the whole songwriting thing started. And then I ended up getting a job working for a guy named Mack Altheiser.

He had a rodeo company called Bad Company Rodeo in Del Rio. And I'd ridden bulls at some of his rodeos and knew him. My uncle knew him. Over the years. And so I was kind of familiar with that whole thing and started working for him on the ranch and helping with some of the rodeo stuff and still riding bulls. And he found out that I could play the guitar and sing a few songs, and he always had a party at the rodeo. He was kind of notorious and famous for having like just awesome parties. And he's like, man, all right, Bingham, get your guitar, you're gonna play like the after-party, you know. And pull the flatbed trailer up there for the hospitality tent for all the contestants after the rodeo. And those are like the first— he really encouraged me to like start playing for people and doing that. And then it would just spill over into the bars afterwards after the rodeo, and everybody would end up going to the bar. And I was like, "Bring your guitar with you." And I started getting gigs in the bars. The bars would ask me if I wanted to come back and play.

And just after like, I feel like a few years of that, it was just like, you know, I was kind of a weekend warrior riding bulls. I was definitely not making a living doing it. Always had I had to have a day job during the week, you know, either working on the ranch or doing something. And I started getting to where I could go to these bars and make like $100 in tips, you know, within a couple of hours, and get free beer and free food. And I was like, man, this is almost as much as I made all day digging holes with the shovel. It didn't take me long to figure out that that was pretty cool. And I was just like, I'm gonna stick stick with it.

Yeah, what an organic sort of a journey, you know, like a natural progression.

Yeah, and I didn't have high expectations, you know, but I just like— and I was talking about kind of community in this Austin area and in Texas in general. It's just like, man, people were so supportive then of just like, if you had a song to play it, people loved live music. They're like, yeah, get up and play, you know, like Mac with the Rodeo Company and all the guys that worked there, Dave Jennings and Casey and Smurda. There's a whole crew, the Bad Company crew from those days. And they always had kind of the Bad Company house band too, where everybody would get up and try to play a song. And it's just like, man, we don't care if it's any good or not. Just get up there and play. We're all in it together. And there were so many places that were like that, that I don't think if I was in that environment, I probably would have never pursued it. You know, I just had so many people supporting you and encouraging you to try it. And it took me a long time, you know, to, uh, work stuff out and learn, because I didn't have any really formal music— musical background or lessons or training.

I really just learned it on the road and playing in bars and from other musicians, you know. Really?

So no lessons at all, just kind of figuring it out along the way? Yeah. Well, they got—

you know, the guy taught me the La Malagueña there, but then after that it was just, you know, anybody else who had a guitar and might know a song, you know. I'm like, oh, what chord? How do you play that chord? You know, like Oh, you play it like this, you know? Yeah.

Wow. So how many years were you doing that before you got Yellowstone?

Oh gosh, for a while. I mean, I think my, uh, you know, I was 22 or something like that in Steubenville, you know, riding bulls, starting to play songs, trying to play gigs. After, you know, ended up moving down here to New Braunfels in the Austin area playing music for a while and ended up going out to Los Angeles and playing and then hit the road with the band for— I think I had 4 or 5 albums or so, you know, out, you know, and been touring for 5 or 6 years. I think— how old was I like when Yellowstone started? Like 36, 37. So yeah, I'd been playing, doing the music stuff for a long time. Hmm.

And so how did the Yellowstone— how did you go from music to Yellowstone? Like, how did you even— did you do any acting before that? No, I'd been one—

I'd done a film with Jeff Bridges years ago called Crazy Heart and wrote some songs for that movie, and that was really my own thing. Yeah, that was a good movie. It was pretty cool. You know, I was Jeff Bridges plays a musician in the show, and we're like the backup band at the bowling alley for one of the scenes, you know, which was really cool. And then written some songs for some other films and some TV shows since then. And I met a guy named John Linson out in Los Angeles, a producer, and him and his dad Art Linson, they did like Sons of Anarchy, bunch of shows and a bunch of great movies. and, um, he introduced me to Taylor. And Taylor was, uh, I think it was that movie Wind River, his first movie. You know, I'd met Taylor and just kind of talk about music and stuff, and he wanted me to write a song for Wind River. And I'd given it a shot a couple times, never really had anything that fit for what he wanted, but he ended up using a song that I'd already written. And, um, then we just kind of kept in touch.

And then when the Yellowstone thing came up, he got in touch again about writing some songs for the show. And then he learned that I used to do all the rodeo stuff, I think, and grew up ranching. And he's like, well, shoot, you can do a lot of this stuff. I got to find a way to get you in the show, you know? And it literally went from the conversation— he was like, well, I don't know what I'm going to do with you, but I'll find something to do with you, you know? And he literally said, he's like, you know, if you do good, I'll— you know, he goes, if you suck, I'll kill you off. If you do good, I'll keep you on.

Something like that, you know?

I'm like, yeah, good enough. So you have no formal acting, like, training or anything? No, not at all.

That's what's amazing, dude. You're really good.

Oh, I appreciate that. You know, I get to kind of play a cowboy and be a little bit of myself. Yeah, I appreciate it.

That role's got some complexity to it. It's not just a cowboy. It's like you've got some complicated scenes, you know, some emotional scenes, some deep scenes, and you're really good. Thank you. That's impressive.

I appreciate that. It was— I enjoyed it, you know. I hadn't done much acting at all, and I got to give a lot of credit to the actors that are on the show too, you know, those folks that have really studied it and paid their dues learning that craft, you know. They really create the environment, you know, especially for me not knowing much about it, you know, and just kind of being a part of the scene. Like, they're so good that they make you react in a certain way, right? You know, they know how to get it out of you. Yeah, you know, cold and Kelly, Luke, and all those folks, you know, they're like, they, they know how to set up the scene and they know what they're doing. So they already kind of have the whole thing set up. And so when I walk into a scene and they say they're lying to me, it's just like, oh, okay, yeah, I gotta answer, right? Like, I'm just like kind of like naturally, you know, answering that, you know?

Right, right. Yeah, it's like if you work with a really good actor, sometimes you forget they're acting. You're like, oh, Oh, like, oh yeah, we're acting. Like, you seem like this is really happening.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, like, I think it was moments when I thought it was really happening.

Yeah. How long did it take before you got comfortable, like, doing that on camera?

Still not really. Yeah, still not. Yeah.

Well, you play it off good.

Well, thanks. You know, I think some of it comes from the riding bulls. You know, you learn how to channel that anxiety or fear into just like, oh, okay, it's time. Let's just like, dude, pull it together and channel that, you know.

If you could ride a bull, I think you could kind of do basically anything, man.

I, you know, that's one thing my uncle taught me when I was young, you know. He was really quick to be like, man, it doesn't matter how strong you are, you know. It's not about— it's all mental. It's all in your mind. And it's all— it's not, I think I can. It's, I know I can, and I will. Will. Mm-hmm. And he goes, if you don't, if you don't believe that every time you go put your rope on one of those on their backs, he's like, it ain't gonna happen. Yeah. He says, you see, you don't— it's not being cocky, it's just being confident, you know, and believing in yourself and, and having that, that power of mind over matter, you know. Yeah. If you could do that, acting's easy. And take that in anything in life. Yeah. And I do, because I definitely have moments where, you know, I'm like, oof, okay, take a deep breath, right? It's go time, let's go, you know.

Well, especially having more than a decade of doing that with bulls. Mm-hmm. Like, that, that's so uncontrollable. Like, it is like you're at the mercy of fate and how this plays out. Yeah. And you have this enormous beast, and you've chosen to scare the shit out of yourself, get on top of this thing and try to ride it.

You've chosen to join the dance. Yeah.

If you do that, if you can do that and be successful at that, I kind of think you could do anything. I think that— I mean, I wouldn't want my kid to do it at 10, but fuck, it's probably very— if they could survive, pretty valuable. I love—

I really picked two of the easiest professions, you know, riding bulls and playing music, like, right?

Two that have the least amount of success ratio. Impossible task, right?

Well, did you ever get any serious injuries Uh, you know, I was fortunate, like, not serious. There was one of the worst ever. I got knocked all these teeth out. I got jerked down one night in Weatherford and, um, took my lip off and my teeth went through down here. And these are all fake up here. And then my lip was just hanging by a thread. What was— why it didn't knock me out, which was wild though. I got on this bull and, uh, I remember it was in Weatherford, Texas. Texas, and, uh, it's got a Butler Arena there. And he had this, um, little Angus bull there, didn't have horns on him, little muley. And, uh, usually you can go up to the guys that own the bulls, and a lot of the bulls have patterns, you know, that they, that they'll do over and over, you know. So you can kind of talk to the stock contractor, the guys that own them, be like, hey, you know, what's this bull generally do? He's like, yeah, most time they'll take 2 jumps out and they spin to the left, or they take 2 jumps and they go to the right, or they just, you know, they'll jump kick around and make a circle.

And he goes, man, he goes, I don't know. He's like, the last two times I bucked, he's never— he hadn't been ridden. He usually jumps out there and just spins right in the gate. And he said nobody's really ridden him past 3 or 4 seconds. So he goes, I don't know what he's going to do after that. And sure enough, that's what happened. I got on him and I jumped out and just got it on right there in the gate, just spinning right there. And I rode him through it like 3 or 4 rounds. And after I rode him, like, I think the bully didn't know what to do next. He got a little frustrated. He just stopped and just stopped dead still and just blowing and just, you know, just mad. And, uh, you never really want to jump off of them when they're still like that because you just— you'll fall right beside them, you know. So you want them to have a little momentum so when you, you know, you're checking out, they can— you can get away from them, right? And so I spurred him a little bit to get him jump, so when he jumped, I could jump off.

But when I spurred him, it just jumped up, straight up off the ground like a cat off all fours. And when he came— and when he jumped up like that, I, you know, kind of rocked me back on, back like that. My hand's still tied in the rope. And then when he came down, he just brought all that— jerked me down with the force. And I came forward and he threw his head back and I just headbutted him. Oh! And when he did, then my hand was still caught in the rope. And then he took off running around, just drug me around. Down and just stomped the crap out of me, you know, for a bit. And I finally got loose. And I remember running over to the fence. And I just, you know, I kind of had my arms on the fence. And I could see all the blood just kind of pouring down all over me. And one of the bullfighters ran up, and he looks at me.

He goes, "Oh, buddy." He's like, "Whoo!" And— So they have to stitch your lip back on? Yeah.

You know, and the shock was just— I didn't feel feel anything. Like, I was just like in shock and I was like, oh man, you know. I remember like my girlfriend was there from high school and my buddy, and, um, we drove to the little— you know, they're like, you want to call an ambulance? I was like, nah, I don't have health insurance, I'm gonna call no ambulance, you know. And, um, got my buddy's car and we drove her over to the emergency room in Weatherford. And I go in and the nurse, she's just like, oh man, she's like, we can't do anything for you here, you're gonna have to go to like Dallas to like trauma, you know, you're going to have to get like an oral surgeon to put you back together. And, uh, she goes, you want me to, you know, get you an ambulance there? And I was like, no, I think we can make it, you know. And she's like— she gave me some pain pills. She goes, don't take these now. She goes, hold on to these, and then when you get to Dallas, then take them, because you're probably going to have to wait, you know, before they can— because be 3 or 4 in the morning before they can get somebody in there to see us.

And, uh, sure enough, we got to Dallas, and I'm just sitting there in the wait room, and I had a rag and I was just holding my mouth together. And the shock wore off, man, and then it's, you know, I was starting to feel it. Took those pain meds, and then doctor came in and held me back and gave me a big shot in the roof of my mouth, try to numb everything. And just, I think it took him longer to clean it all up, you know, pull all the hair and dirt out of there and sew me up. And the— oh, it was an ordeal, you know, for for months after that, you know, getting the dental work done, all that crap.

So how was the lip hanging off?

It bit it all. It would have came all the way off. It was just hanging on right here by the side, so it was just hanging down.

And so they just had to stitch the lower part to the upper part and put it all together again?

Yeah, just all right through the middle. And kind of, if I shave, I got a big scar that kind of goes down there. Wow. And then they went through down here, so I got some stitches down there. And then most of the stitches were all in my, my gums and all of that.

So they had to put like posts and implants and all that stuff? Wow. Yeah, that shit takes forever, huh?

Kind of knocked the front 4 out and then it just dominoed the rest of them.

Riding bulls with no health insurance is wild. That's crazy, man. That's crazy.

Yeah, it was just life back then for me, you know. I think going into the music stuff was It's like, I don't know, I just wasn't really scared about it or even the expectations of making it. I mean, to me at the time, I had a truck and a camper on it, and I was like, man, I was like, I got no bills, I got no responsibilities. I'm just like, go make $100 a night playing music in a bar. I was like, this is the dream. You know, I'm like, I made it. Yeah.

Well, I think when you've done something super, super difficult difficult, everything else seems easier. And if you've done what you did with riding bulls for that long, like, the music business is like, that's the worst that could happen.

Yeah, even the travel part, you know, like, you know, in the early days of playing, when I really decided I was going to try to make a run and play, you know, and it was like, oh, what, we got to get in the van and go drive around and, right, play in bars, you know? I was like, we've been doing that rodeoing for years, you know, you sleep in the back of the truck or whatever, and it fun for us. We loved it. Yeah. So the idea of like starving on the road, playing in a band, playing music, I was like, shit, let's go, you know. And getting a guaranteed paycheck every night, you know.

Right, the gratitude you must have.

The Riding Bulls, I mean, half the time, you know, you walked away with nothing, right?

You know, a busted lip, nothing, you know. Yeah, and no health insurance, and you're risking your life, and there's not a bunch of people that I love you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, it's a great base to start out from, you know. I mean, it sounds like it's almost like the universe engineered this path for you to go down. Like, if you wanted to pick a path, yeah, that would bring you to where you are right now, it is the perfect set of circumstances.

I, I, I look at it all the time, you know, just from an outside perspective, I guess, I'm just like, "Wow, how in the world did all this come together?" And just a lot of luck and perseverance or whatever. And I wouldn't say I haven't worked hard at it. You know, I feel like I have and all that. But there's a lot of luck out there and a lot of good people too. You know, a lot of good people helped me out along the way and gave me gas money and gave me a place to sleep or a place to eat and helped us get other gigs and other— I mean, I remember going from one town to the next Phoenix and not having gas money to get to the next and having no plan other than like, let's just head west or head east. And, you know, you'd go play at a bar and sure enough, there'd be somebody there that would be like, oh man, y'all should come back to my house. We'll have a bonfire and play some songs. And he's like, oh, my brother's got a bar in Phoenix. And, you know, he's like, call them on your way out.

You know, we'd go there and we'd always like chop firewood or wash dishes or would mow your lawn or wash your car on the way to like to get gas money and keep on going, you know. Wow. So that was just kind of how I always— I feel like I learned early, if you were willing to help yourself, you know, people would help you all day long.

I think luck is a factor, but it's only a factor if you've already had all those other experiences. Yeah, I think about it, if you hadn't ridden bulls, you hadn't gone through all the ranching, all the hard labor, all the different things things, then like you probably wouldn't have capitalized on that luck the same way.

No, not at all.

Your character wouldn't be the same. No. You know, it's like part, part of who you are is the character that you've developed from what you've done.

It kind of conditioned me to do it in a big way.

And it seems like it's your life, it almost like it's engineered for this to happen the way it happened.

It's kind of crazy. It's been cool, man. Man, I feel very storybook, you know?

Yeah, very like movie, like a plot in a movie. Guy who's a cowboy bull rider starts singing songs, people like, hey, you should probably do this for a living. And then someone's like, hey man, you should be on TV, you know? And then next thing you know, you're on one of the biggest hits in the world.

I feel like that's that song, you know, one day they're gonna put me in the movie. Yeah. I was like, how am I living this thing right now? You know, it's like, I know I meet people all the time. They're like, oh, like, you know, they can't really believe where I'm from or whatever. They just think it's some like made-up story. I'm like, oh yeah, all right, man, you know.

Well, it seems like a story that someone would make up if they wanted to pretend to be a cowboy.

Yeah, well, I think a lot of people have.

I bet, right? I bet.

Yeah, and a lot of people still do. Yeah, isn't that funny? Uh-huh.

That's funny. That's like stolen valor almost.

Yeah, you know, I think like in all kinds of stuff, you know, professions or whatever, you know, people pretend to be the— oh yeah, what it is. Would you— oh yeah, would you mind if I went to the restroom?

Oh no, no, no, not at all. I totally understand. I want to keep talking about—

I don't want to stop this.

Let's pause, take a leak. We'll be right back, folks. And we're back. Yeah, it's, um, it's kind of funny that people would want fake the life that you've lived. But that is such a romantic story. Like, it's such a movie that it makes sense that people want to fake it. It's got to be weird walking around, like, having lived a life that people would want to fake and pretend that they lived.

It is. It is sometimes, you know. And it's like, you know, I remember when I really started for, you know, playing music and stuff. I mean, I wore a cowboy hat all the time. I mean, I rode bulls and, you know, it was very much my identity, you know. But no, cowboy stuff wasn't really cool then, you know. I feel like in the early 2000s and all of that, you know, there wasn't a lot of big— there wasn't a big Americana scene or, you know, any of that kind of stuff, you know. And definitely going to New York or going to Los Angeles and touring around, like, I would be the only one wearing a cowboy hat, you know. I remember, I think the first I— one time I was in LA, we were out on the Santa Monica Pier, and there was a guy that had like the one-man band thing, you know, out there. And there's all these tourists on the pier, and I'm just like out there checking out the scenery and just minding my own business. And this guy gets on the microphone, he just points over at me, goes, "Oh, Brokeback Mountain!" And everybody on the pier turned around and looked at me, they're just pointing at me and laughing at me.

And I'm just like, "Ah." Ah, okay, you know. So I was like, that was the association with the cowboy hat at the time.

That's hilarious. Yeah, they changed cowboys for a while.

Now it's a whole new ball game. You throw a whole new monkey wrench into that, that legend. But you know, now playing, and man, I'm so stoked to see all these new bands out there and like so many young folks playing actual instruments, you know. I felt like for a long time there so electronic and DJs and all that stuff, you know.

And well, there's a giant country comeback that's going on right now, kind of nationwide. I'm sure you love Open the Gates, the Zach Bryan song. Yeah, that's such a great bull riding song, man.

They got some great tunes, man.

Yeah, that's a great bull riding song. Um, but there's, um, there's so many great musicians out there now and also have lived like different but very— like Charlie Crockett. What a fascinating dude that guy is, like, just kind of performing on the streets and, yeah, you know, just being kind of a vagabond traveling around, and then finally catches, and people like, damn, this music is fucking great, man.

Yeah, like wearing it on their sleeves, you know, and like, and having the confidence to— I think people have always been— I think there has been plenty of folks out there, you know, writing from the heart and so to speak and all that. And, you know, having a certain integrity to the things that they're saying and wanted, you know, the truth in their speaking into their songs and things like that. Yeah, there's just a— there's a lot more of a platform to support them, you know. And like, people like, oh wow, there's a— there's a bunch of this stuff out there, you know.

There's also an appreciation for it because I think we're all fearful that people like you won't exist in the future? Because it seems like a guy like you, you know, bull riding, living on a ranch, like singing songs in bars, like that almost is like a thing of the past. Oh, very much. But it's so romantic to people that like when we meet a guy like you in real life, you're like, oh, keep him around. You know, like you want to make sure that people like you still exist. It's a very exciting thing for people. People to have a person who's lived an authentically interesting life and authentically out-of-the-box life. It's not a normal life. Like, you, you're— if you meet a million people, the odds of you meeting one guy who used to bull ride and then started singing in bars with his friends and was happy living on the road, now all of a sudden he's on a fucking gigantic television show. It's not even one in a million.

It's pretty— it's strange. Sometimes I, you know, I meet people and like, you know, I'm like, oh yeah, I grew up just like you, you know. And then I realized like, I don't think I did. I kind of have to think about it myself.

I was like, no, you definitely didn't. You wrote a book when you were fucking 10, dude. Okay, most people when they're 10, they're playing with GI Joes. Yeah, you know, they're not writing books. Bulls. That's a very unusual setup for the rest of your life, you know. If you can— I think if you do some things difficult when you're really young, you, you get accustomed to fear, you get accustomed to anxiety and nerves. And the thing that— I mean, that, that is like the mark of a man. Like, a man is his ability to be in a very high-stress situation and keep his shit together, you know. And to have gone through a lot of that when you're very young— like, riding a bull at 10 is crazy. Crazy to go through that when you're very young. It just develops the kind of character that allows you to kind of do anything in life. And I think most men see that and they wish they were like that.

I remember a moment, you know, it was really when I was, you know, riding steers, and then I made that transition to the big bulls, you know. And it wasn't like, oh, here's this, like, this little steer, and then there's an in-between, and then there's the big— it It was like this little steer and then this big bull, you know. And I went to— it was a junior rodeo in Odessa, Texas, and it was my first year to ride junior bulls. And I entered the bull riding. My uncle was there with me, and they started running the bulls up into the chutes, and they were big. They were like backs that wide and horns sticking outside of the chutes, you know. And they were big, but they didn't buck that hard, you know. They just kind of jump-kicked down, but they were still big, you know. And like, I remember like scared and like in tears, you know, kind of. I was scared. And my uncle, you know, was super cool about it. He wasn't like, you have to do this or you have to. He's like, man, whatever you want to do, you know, you want to pack it up, we'll get out of here right now.

It's like, this is either for you or it's not for you, you know. And I remember just him telling me, you want to take like 20, 30 minutes and just kind of think about it and whatever you want to whatever I do, we'll make happen, you know? And I did. I kind of walked around there for a bit, and I just had this some kind of, like, I knew I would regret it if I didn't do it, didn't try it, you know? There was something in me where, like, I meant, because I slept it, I dreamt about it, you know? I just, I loved it. And I was like, nah, I'm gonna do this, you know? And I put my rope on him and had all the support there that I needed in that moment, and they opened the gate. And this big old high-horned bull, you know, he just turned and kind of jumped out there real docile. And I think I rode him 2 or 3 jumps and fell off, and it was just like, I'm the king of the world. Yeah, I was like, I'm a bull rider now, you know. I'm not just the steer rider kid, you know.

I kind of made that level. And I remember after that, I just, uh, man, I just craved it. Like, just the higher they jump, the faster they spin, the better I I like it. Really? Oh, just, yeah, this dirty rank, just run them in there, let's go. And when I was, when I was little, I mean, when I was like 14 or 15, you know, the guys were starting to breed the bulls for like the PBR. Like, they full-on started these like breeding programs, you know. Used to, you could go to a practice pen and, you know, it'd be an old farmer that had 2 or 3 old bulls that you could get on and practice, and they'd just jump around and just, you know, nothing else was really going to hurt you bad. You know, and then they started breeding these young bulls, man. You go to the practice pen, there'd be 10 or 15 of these like yearlings that bucked, and they needed somebody to get on them, you know, like test pilot. And I was the test pilot. There's a guy named Bradley Raspberry, I believe, kind of out in Brownwood. I remember going to his house, and I could ride, I could ride.

I was pretty sticky when I was— I could ride a lot better when I was younger than I was when I got older, you know, for some reason I just had that no fear, whatever that was. And I'd get on 10 or 15 a day and just— they just kept running them in there, man. They'd be trying to flip over in the chute and just, you know, they're young green bulls that were half wild and, and they're just trying to figure out which ones bucked and which ones didn't. And they would, you know, they'd get rid of the ones that didn't buck and keep the ones that did. And man, I'd just be like— the wilder they got in the shoot, like, the more aggressive I got. Like, I just like, was like, okay, that's what we're gonna do. Come on, let's go, let's, let's do this, you know. I was nuts, you know. That's so crazy.

Yeah, that's such a crazy way to live your life. You know, wild bulls, you say wild, like the ones that are out there in the wild, they're some of the most dangerous animals that you could ever encounter when they're acting like— they call them scrub bulls. Mm-hmm. Like my buddy Adam, he lives in Australia, or he's moving to America, but when he lived in Australia, he said that they would encounter these scrub bulls, which is like wild domestic bulls that got out and started breeding, and then many generations later, they're now completely wild. They're like deer out there. Yeah, and they will run after you.

I knew these 3 guys from Australia that, or several Australian guys that came over, lived in Stephenville. A lot of these cowboys had moved to Stephenville 'cause it was so central It was kind of cowboy capital there. And his name was Lance Kelly, had some brothers, and they were from up there in North Queensland somewhere. And one summer he went back to work. And then when he came back, he'd tell me about where he was from all the time. I was young and curious. I was always fascinated. I was like, wow, you're from Australia? I've only seen movies, like what's the— oh gosh, I'm almost forgetting. Crocodile Dundee? No, the man from— The Man from Snowy River, which was— anyway, but I was fascinated with Australia and him and his brothers. And so he went home and he videotaped a VHS. You know, you didn't have phones back then, but it was like the old camcorder, VHS tape recorder. And he'd videotape or duct taped it around his body while he was walking around working on the ranch. And he'd have his four-wheeler and they're chasing these wild cattle and rounding them up, him and his brother— brothers, and he would just like chase them on a four-wheeler as long as, you know, keep them running until they got so tired they couldn't go anymore.

And then he had this piece of pipe on there, he could run up behind them and kind of knock them down, and then he'd jump off and tie their legs together. And they would catch a bunch of them like that. And then his brother would come by, you know, later with a truck and a winch and winch them up into the trailer. And they would catch all these wild cows like that. And to be able to see that footage and stuff and have him tell me how they were doing it and show me. I was like, oh, that's the coolest thing in the world. I want to go. When can I go?

You know, Australia is such a crazy place, man. It is. I mean, it's bigger than the United States and— or the size of the United States roughly, and it has less people than Los Angeles.

And everything will kill you over there. Everything will kill you.

Every snake, spider, every snake, crocodile. They have saltwater crocodiles and giant fucking great white sharks. Whoo! And hardy people, man. Yeah, hardy motherfuckers come from that place.

I feel like, I feel like Texas and a lot of folks from Australia are a bit kindred spirits.

Yes, I think so too. My buddy James McCann was on the podcast yesterday. He's a comic out of Australia, and he's from there and he spends time here. He was living here for a while, but he had to move back back because he had another kid. And but now he's coming back and forth and trying to figure— he's really talented. He's trying to come to Austin. Yeah, he was living in Austin for a couple years and living in America for a couple years, living in Austin for about a year. But you know, his wife's about to have another kid and they just decided to go back to Australia where she's got support. But man, he fucking misses it. He was here, he's like, mate, I miss it so much. Yeah, I miss it so much. Like I think there's any place like this place. Mm-hmm. It's pretty awesome. But Australia, it's like, it's the same kind of thing. It's like, it's a rugged place, and the kind of people that live there, they're fun. They're fun, kind of got a super fucked up oppressive government, unfortunately.

I think it's a lot about what you say too, you know, when you survive certain things in your life, and you know, it puts things in perspective of what you're taking seriously, or what's a, what's an emergency urgency, you know? What's right? Oh, is this— this is life or death, or is it not? Or, you know, and to be able to laugh at stuff, man. I love comedians. It's just like, man, to be able to just joke and cut stuff about the most serious things or whatever it is, like, God, we need that so much, you know?

It's an important service. It doesn't seem like it is to people because it seems stupid and like, oh, you're just telling jokes. Like, not for— for me, when I go and watch a good comedy show I feel better. It's medicine. And I think it also puts life into perspective. With a sense of humor, you can kind of look at things through a different lens and go, yeah, we're probably gonna be alright.

I get a feeling like, you know, I think a lot of folks have this idea that songwriters, or where, you know, especially, you know, have a bunch of sad songs or whatever to go to that deep place, and you live through stuff that you write about. But man, I find in comics, man, I like, I've feel like there's some of the heaviest stuff in the world that those folks have experienced to be able to, you know, come up and tell these kinds of jokes and stories. And the educational part of it with it, you know, it's so much— I don't know, for me it seems like so much more than just a joke. It is with some.

I mean, some people just do jokes. It really depends on your style. But I mean, if you go back to like Richard Pryor, his whole thing was like explaining life and telling stories. Yeah, but with an amazing sense of humor. And then you would leave that and you're like, everybody feels like more united, they feel better.

Yeah, just like you, like what everybody was thinking.

Yeah, it was everybody's thinking, afraid to say. And also he would look at things from a very wise perspective that was also hilarious. So you walked out of there feeling better. Yeah, you felt like you were better.

It felt like there's, uh, bringing some hope.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's hope in humor. Yeah, for sure. But there's hope in music too. Yeah, you know, I don't have any musical talent at all, but I always think of music as almost like a drug. Because music, when, when a good song hits, you're like, fuck. Like, you're— if you're in the car and a good tune comes on, like, especially back when I used to listen to the radio, you know, and like, you didn't expect what was coming on, and also can't rewind it. Yeah, all sudden it's Radar Love by Golden Earring. Oh yeah, fuck yeah, let's go! Oh yeah, like you, you feel different. It like changes your mood. Like a— you hear like Freebird, like you're flipping through the channels and the fucking guitar solo for Freebird comes on, you're like, yes! You feel better. Like it, it excites all these parts of your senses, your consciousness, your feelings. It's, it's a drug.

I mean, it's an amazing— it's been real therapeutic for me at the very beginning. And like I said, I didn't have high expectations, but I knew when I kind of wrote some of the first songs that I wrote and I like got some of that stuff off my chest, like it changed me, you know? Yeah. It like, it became a tool that all of a sudden I had access to this thing that like was helping me heal in a way. Like I could get stuff off my chest, like the things that I was uncomfortable talking about in conversation with folks, like I could put them into a song and like sing them to the wall. And I was just like getting that stuff out. Like there wasn't anybody in the room. I was just like, you know, but I was getting this stuff out of me, you know?

And it's also a way for people to hear it where it's not annoying, you know what I mean? Like if you just tell some sad story about your life, people are like, oh geez, like, here we go, cry me a river, kid.

Everybody's got a story.

But if you have a sad story in a song, it's like, fucking, it's kind of— it's beautiful. Like, I love a good sad song, you know, a song that has like real emotion in it, whether it's a real story or whether— like, one of my favorite Colter Wall songs is Kate McCannon. Yeah, Jamie turned me on to that song. He said to me, man, Colter's a gem. He was fucking 21 when he made that song. Which is crazy. Yeah, listen to that song. It sounds like a 58-year-old man who's been smoking cigarettes his whole life. Yeah. And that dude is interesting too because he still works on a ranch. Yeah, yeah, he's a great guy.

He's one of my favorites of the younger guys that have come up and been doing this. He's just, um, same way when I first heard those first songs, I was like, who the fuck is this? Yeah, you know, then you saw— then I saw saw like a picture of him, I'm like, oh man, he's a kid, you know? Crazy. And I just— fabulous, right? Wicked Bird.

You hear that, you're like, what is this? Yeah, what— who is this guy? And when I couldn't believe he was 21, I'm like, that makes zero sense.

Yeah, he's got it though, man. And there's a bunch of them out there now that I'm hearing too. It's just like, I'm like, man, how cool. Yeah, how cool. I'm so glad that they're getting a shot at it, or just getting the support. I don't know if it's saying getting a shot at it, but it's like getting the love and support that they deserve for the— it's good music, man. Yeah, it's great, great music.

And there's a thing now with the internet where it's so easy to share something, you know, like someone's got a good song and it's on YouTube or Spotify, and then you just send a link to your buddy. Yeah, go, bro, check this out. Like, I gotta say, like, half the songs I find out about, my friends just to send me. And then all of a sudden I'm like, oh shit, yeah. And then I'll add it to my playlist, you know. It's like, it's easy to share things now where you don't have to go to the record store and pick up the record. And you know, now it's just like within seconds of you getting it in your phone, you're listening to it. Yeah.

And it's easier to record the stuff too, you know. Oh yeah. So you don't need half a million bucks in a studio and all that stuff. It's like Man, half the stuff you can record on your phone.

Look at Oliver Anthony. Yeah, one fucking song. Yeah, one song, and the first show he ever does is like 18,000 people. That is the first show that dude ever performed at.

I feel for him. I would never have been able to do that when I started, you know. I was not prepared for anything like that, you know. I don't know, maybe they're not, but that's a lot of—

he settled in Yeah, he settled in pretty easy. He figured it out. He's a smart cat. Yeah, he's a really smart dude, and he settled in really easy.

I guess they have to, you know. I mean, I always think like, you know, gosh, it's changed so much since I started out, you know. I mean, we didn't even have like, you know, if you wanted to learn how to play a song, you kind of had to go listen to the record and just try to figure it out, you know, and like rewind it. Now they're like, oh, here's a guy, they'll just show you every note. And this—

yeah, there's a guy on YouTube that'll show you exactly where to play fingers do it.

Yeah, that took me years to figure out, you know. And then, you know, maybe that is like today, you know, these guys, it's, they're learning how to do it at such a quicker rate. And like, they know how to handle the crowds and do all the stuff, and it's just like, boom, there you go.

Well, that's with everything today. Yeah, you know, I think that's also why, like, I mean, in martial arts and like UFC, there's a reason why the guys are so much better today, and it's because they get to see everything that everybody's ever done done, and then they practice it and improve upon it, and they get it at a year early age. You could essentially just on your phone watch every fight that's ever taken place ever in human history that's been recorded.

I did that on the road a few years ago. I mean, I've still— I've always been a pretty rudimentary guitar player, you know. I can't solo all over the place and all of that stuff. And I think it was like 2019, last— I put out a record and I was going on a tour and And my friend Charlie Sexton produced the album. He's a wonderful guitar player.

Charlie Sexton, the guy from the '80s, Beat So Lonely?

Yeah, played with Dylan, played Archangel.

He was like really young when Beat So Lonely came out, right?

Oh man, he's a legend. And I remember calling him though. I was like, man, I really want to get better at the guitar, you know? And he's like, well, just listen to all the stuff that you really like. You know, he's like, don't try to play it all note for note. He says, just keep listening to it and like you'll start eventually finding those places and develop your style. And but it was when I got on the road as well, man, I had access on YouTube, right, all of my favorite musicians and guitar players. And I just kind of made a point of sitting down. And I even found this guy that was just breaking down and giving simple blues guitar lessons for kids. I was like, man, this is great, never done anything like this. And just like went through, I went back, you know, right? I got to memorize all the notes on the fretboard, and I need, you know, I And it was just, it was so, I had so much fun doing it. And, you know, and also give confidence to get up and jam with other musicians and play and kind of know what key you're in, what you're doing.

And, you know, I went years, you know, without having any kind of lessons or training. And then I just like within 3 weeks of being on tour and watching YouTube videos of it, just stepped it up so much. Like, how'd you learn how to do it? I just, about 20 years later in my career, I decided to learn how to play the guitar on YouTube. It is amazing. I mean, that's the best way to learn.

Positive part of the internet, you know. If you could avoid the negative parts, there's a lot of great positive stuff in the internet, and the access to stuff like that is amazing.

Yeah, if we all could just avoid the negative of everything, right?

Right. Well, unfortunately, there's a lot of people that don't have good lives, and they do have a lot of extra time because they're not really investing in their own life, so they're just spreading negativity online. Yeah. And it's just human nature. Well, well, It is. It's a wild world, but it's also a wildly positive world too. Just what you just said about the guitar stuff. Mm-hmm. Or with the Oliver Anthony stuff. Yeah, this guy standing there with a guitar in front of a field with no production value at all, but has a song that he's singing from the heart. Like, how many, how many views does that shit have on YouTube? It's got to be like 100 million views or something. Nuts. But that song was fucking gigantic. Yeah, Rich Men North of— mm-hmm.

I remember my wife playing it for me for the first time. I was like, what is that? And she's like, oh man, check this out. You know, I was like, that's so fucking rad.

Yeah, I got a chance to see him perform live too with his band. They're fucking fantastic. He's settled— he's completely settled into being famous now. He's full— he's cool with it. Yeah, he's still the same dude. Mm-hmm. I met him real early on, and I actually talked to him on the phone. How many was it? Got it, 236 million. Holy shit. Wow.

When you say like he settled, it was— he— I didn't know, dude. Was he having a hard time with it?

He was freaking out in the beginning. And I contacted him early on and he said, hey, can I ask you some advice and can we talk on the phone? I said, yeah, sure. So I called him up and he was just telling me that he was getting hit up by all these different people that were trying to give him money to sign a contract, this. Then I go, hey, hey, hey, don't sign nothing. I go, you don't need nobody. You don't need to be locked up in any contracts with nobody. And he was like, they're all telling me I gotta strike while the iron's hot. I'm like, fuck them. I go, you got talent, dude. Talent is the number one thing. You already have that. You're gonna be fine. You just keep making songs like that, you can't fucking lose. But what you don't want to do is be tied with some legal contract contract to some assholes just sucking you like a vampire. Yeah. And they're going to be stuck with you for years, and then you're going to have to go to court to get out of that shit. Exactly.

Yeah. Whenever you have the opportunity, like, like I said, you just— man, you're writing good songs, you're doing good stuff, and you have a way to give it to the people. But he's getting an offer for $7 million to sign this.

I'm like, don't do it. I know it sounds like— but that $7 million, they're giving you that because they're going to make 14. There's not a chance in hell. And you don't need them. Yeah, you don't need them. You should get all the money. You should get it all. You shouldn't give any money to anybody else. Yeah, you don't need it. You can make your own records. You can put it all together yourself. You don't need nobody.

I guess you always got to remember, they're gonna buy for one, sell for two. He'll—

somewhere. Yeah, exactly. It's— there's no way they're going to give you that money unless they're going to make a lot more, and then you're going to get stuck with them. Don't do it. And he's like, they're all telling me I got to do now, because if I miss this opportunity, I'm like, you ain't missing shit. Yeah, you ain't missing it.

There's not a chance you're gonna miss it, especially when you're that young.

Yeah, and good. Yeah, and just fucking good.

Who knows what they're gonna be, you know, be writing in the next 10 years. Yeah.

Have you heard that song Woman Scorned? I haven't, no.

Is that one of his new ones?

He wrote that one after a breakup, and it's just— whoa, you hear that fucker, it just gets you right in the bone marrow. Yeah, I get you. Yeah, it's fantastic. It's so good. But it's just like, you know, it's a beautiful story, and I love a story like that. Dude was like selling, he was selling like heavy equipment. He was a salesman, just like fucking machinery and shit. Yeah. And then writing songs, and he gets fed up one day and he puts this song— let's make a video of this fucking song. Yeah. And then all of a sudden Boom!

Man, people ask me all the time, they're like, man, who do you think's, you know, the best young songwriter out there? You know, musician or guitar player? I'm like, man, I don't know, it's probably some 16-year-old kid in the garage that nobody's heard of. That's probably the best guy out there, you know?

And he's ready to jump off.

Yeah, he's gonna hit you with some song that just, you know, crushes you. Yeah.

They're out there. Mm-hmm. It's just, but that's the thing that I was saying about guys like you, that people look at guys like you and it's such a romantic story. Worry. They worry that there's not going to be any more of you. You know what I mean? Like this weird digital world and AI and just this strange fucking life that we're all living like now that are not— I don't want to say simple because it's not simple, but it's unencumbered by all the bullshit of the world that we think is fake and unfortunate. Yeah. Like to to have this pure life and this wild romantic story. When people meet a guy like you, they're like, oh man, there probably ain't gonna be many more of them. I don't know, man.

I mean, look at this guy, you know? Yeah. Guys are coming. I feel so fortunate too. Like when I did come to Austin, like in my, you know, mid-20s, you know, I met guys like Joe Ely and Terry Allen and Guy Clark and like these little Steve Earle legendary kind of guys that I looked up to. And I remember being young then. I'm like, oh man, you know, these, these are the last guys left, you know. And so, you know, I don't know, there's so many of these young folks out there, they're doing it, that I think, uh, crave it, and they're— that's what they're interested in. They want to hear play that music, you know, they want to feel that stuff. So I'm optimistic about it, but I can— I can— it definitely is a different world out there these days. I And even for myself, you know, just going with the flow and like, well, where are we going tomorrow? You know, how is this? Like, I have no idea how so much of this social media stuff is working or what, you know, and how you put out an album or songs.

And it's like, don't worry about all that jazz. Just like, just keep writing. Yeah, just keep writing, keep making it and just be undeniable. And at the end of the day, if all of that stuff disappears, like You know, you can always go sit on the sidewalk and put your tip jar out there and play a song for people who are walking down the street, and I guarantee you there's gonna be somebody that's gonna stop and appreciate it, you know.

Well, that's what got Charlie Crockett started.

Yeah, yeah, I've had plenty of gigs where, like, you know, you go into some bar and the— you know what my wife always says? Go where you're celebrated, not where you're tolerated. You go into some bar and they kind of— you can tell they don't really want— you know, they're not excited about you playing or whatever. Like, yeah, shit, I'll just go— I'll go park in the parking lot across the street and sit on the tailgate of my truck and play, and we'll have a party over there, you know.

Yeah, that is the crazy thing about music. You could just kind of set up anywhere.

You don't need all that stuff you like talking about, just signing contracts and deals and all. It's like, man, just like, you got that guitar in your hand, you got your song, you know, hold on to it. Yeah, and protect it, you know. That's what's— it's something that's, that's special to you. I think when I talk about the therapy of songwriting. So that's what's— I hold on and protect that ruthlessly, you know. I'm not just giving that away, you know. And it's more— that part of it's way more important than selling an album or a concert ticket or going on the road touring and all that, man. Like, what I get out of music is like when I'm sitting at home in a room all by myself and letting that stuff pour out of me, and I'm just, just singing it to the wall. Like, that's what's saved my life, you know?

That's awesome.

It ain't any of the rest of it.

I'm glad that you articulate it that way too, because I think there's young aspiring songwriters and singers out there that are listening to this right now that are feeling this. They just can't wait to get to a pad right now and start writing, pick up their guitar and start writing. Yeah, because it's like stories like yours and the way you express it it inspires people to get excited about it, inspires people to really dig in.

I hope so. You know, I definitely had folks that mentored me like that and, you know, steered me in the right direction in a lot of ways. Terry Allen, the guy, definitely— I'm just like, man, just keep writing, keep, you know, and whatever it— whatever that's making you want to do that in the first place, you know, like that, like, hold on to that, you know, and protect it. And the rest will always be around and always come and it'll change. And a good song will survive and find its way, just like you got, you know, that song you just played me. Like you said, 200 million people in it. Just, they'll find its way, you know. Yeah, find it. They'll find its way into people's hearts.

Yeah. And like I said, it's just, it's important for people like you to tell your story. It really is.

Thank you.

It's, it's fuel for people. Thanks. Thank you for being here. I really appreciate it. It was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed it. And tell everybody, they want to find you performing anywhere, where they can catch you. Is it— you got a website that shows where you're gonna be at?

All over the interwebs. Yeah, it's all out there.

Is it— do you have your own personal website?

I do. It's probably just ryanbingham.com or binghammusic.com, something like like that. Got all the dates are up there.

Yeah. Do you use social media at all? Yeah, we're on all this.

I mean, all this.

Do you pay attention to it or you got somebody who does it for you?

Both. Yeah, I do both. Yeah, like mostly like on Instagram, I pay attention to that one, you know, and check in and stuff like that. There's so much of it these days, it's like I can't keep up. Yeah, all of it, you know, it, it'll rob your time. Yeah, I'm trying, I'm trying to go get away where all that stuff's turned off. That's where I'm going to find me. Beautiful. All right, thanks, brother.

Appreciate it.

It was a lot of fun. Thank you. I appreciate you.

Bye, everybody.