Transcript of #2456 - Michael Jai White New

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The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. You're all suited up. You got a wild card boxing hat on, a Bruce Lee shirt. Come on, son.

Hey, we got the yellow and thing going on.

Yeah, you got it all going on. What's happened? Great to see you, man.

Things are really well, this thing is a little loud.

Is it? There's a. On that thing there. There's a little volume.

Okay.

Knob. You could turn that sucker down.

There it is.

Last time I saw you was at Terry Black's barbecue.

Yeah, yeah.

Random run in.

Yeah. That was crazy. That was crazy. Yeah, man, I was thinking about going there right after this. I'm like, what? Terry Black, that place was no joke.

That place rules.

Yeah, man.

Are you still in la?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What's it like?

It's cool, man.

Is it?

Yeah.

You like it? You're the only person that said that. No.

Yeah, well, because. Ok, I defend L. A in a way where, first of all, if you got a handful of good people with you, you know, your family, then it's so the fact that LA has all kinds of different things. You could be on a hiking trail in 20 minutes. You could be.

Well, geographically it's amazing.

Yeah. And the weather, you can't.

Oh, you can't beat it.

So if you got good people, good friends with you, then it's all good.

You just run by crooks. It's a nice neighborhood run by the mob, it's run by the woke mo. But I mean, geographically, you can't beat it. You could be at the ocean and then you could be in the mountains in two hours.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, that's. Even if you don't partake, it's still cool. It still amps up the ante. Really?

Oh, yeah. Like, the spot itself is magical. It is a magical place to live. Although I am deeply concerned that that motherfucker is going to get hit with a big one soon.

It's about time, right?

Yeah. I was. I was reading this article about massive earthquakes in California and how often they're spread out and the possibility of one of them happening within the next decade. It's very high.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I try not to think about that.

I try not to think about it, too.

Yeah, yeah. But, you know, and now there's. You can. I think they have better detection of that stuff now, too. It's better.

It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. They can't detect. Do you remember what happened in Italy? A couple guys got arrested and went to jail. They were seismologists because the company, the country rather, didn't understand the ability to detect it. They had a big earthquake and a bunch of people died. And so they blame these geologists or seismologists. They wound up winning in court on appeal because eventually the science was revealed. Like, hey, there's no way you can really tell, but they hung these guys out. They blame these guys on not being able to detect it, man.

Well, I mean, just think about it. The last crazy ones was 72 and then 94.

Yeah, right. I think it was 93. I came. I moved to LA right after the last big one. I saw one of the sections of the highway that had collapsed on the other one. I remember driving by, going, this place.

I was in the middle. I just. I came into la.

Oh, you were there, dude.

I don't even like to tell the story about what happened during that 94 earthquake because it sounds like bullshit, but literally, I got. I got up, ran out of my house, my apartment at the time, jumped off the balcony and watched it happen.

You watched the house collapse?

I watched the earthquake happen from outside. Oh, it's like, no bullshit. Everybody's. So I thought, oh, shit, I overreacted. I had a bad dream. I lived on the first floor of this apartment building. All I know is I wake up, I'm off balance, catching my balance in the parking lot, right? And like, oh, shoot, I gotta find the guard to get me back in the. In the apartment building, right? And I'm thinking, what. You know, what's. Like I've lost my mind or something. The next thing you know, everything shakes and the lights go out, just go. Just. Everything gets black. And so I'm backing, I retreat back because I'm thinking the building is going to fall on me. And I'm like, wait a minute. Then I got the story from everybody else that experienced it. They said that the first thing that happened was the. The building shook and the lights went out. Well, I was outside watching that, so I'm outside when it happened. Like some kind of camera.

What made you jump over the, I.

Don'T know feeling, dude?

Or did you have, like, the first. Was it the first rumbles?

I thought. I thought it was. I thought I reacted to the. Like some kind of an aftershock or some kind of rumble? No, because the girl that was with me.

You left her in the apartment, dude.

All she knows is that you jumped up and you ran out of. You ran out of the house. And I heard the door slide, and that was. And then the next thing you know, everything shook. She couldn't. She was trapped in there because there was a closet door that trapped her in the hallway. So when I got back in the place, me and a friend had to try to pry the door open because she couldn't get out. But I ran out of that place before the earthquake actually happened.

How weird. Yeah, you got good instincts.

I don't know what the hell that was.

It has to be, because I don't.

Even like telling that story, because it sounds like bullshit, because it really happened that way. Because then the guard. I talked to the guard. I'm like, hey, when did. When did the lights go out? Oh, it shook and the lights went out. I'm like, I'm watching that happen. So.

So you felt it happened before it.

Happened some kind of weird way?

Well, I bet humans have that. Animals definitely have that. They talk about Thailand, how they had that tsunami, and all the animals ran up to the highest point of the. Of the island. They all just took off. It's like they just knew instinctively.

I don't know nothing like that has ever happened afterwards. But I got to say, there's been. I've been lucky over the years.

Yeah, but you're a dude who's tuned in. You're tuned into your body. You're tuned into your environment. You're not going to get caught slipping. Like, you probably felt something and your spidey sense went off.

Yeah, I kind of have been like that growing up. Like, I've been, you know, I've been on my own since I was 14, been through crazy shit that you normally would see on movies.

And that's the type of shit that gives you those kind of instincts.

But, yeah, and I was always the one that said, hey, let's leave. Let's get out of here. And then, hey, man. There was a shootout that just happened right after you left. Or I could detect, like, the predators. You know what I mean? So I grew up kind of that way. Right.

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Well, yeah, I mean, I was. Well, I was, I was like always the junior of the group a lot of times because like I said, I, you know, I've been on my own since I was 14. I haven't grown an inch since I was 13. 14, I was, I look like a grown ass man. Right. I was fighting in tournaments at 15 against, you know, grown men, like, you know, fighting heavyweight at that time. But I was always hanging with older people, kind of, you know, kind of like I got away with kind of living as an adult early on because, like, you know.

Did you work?

Yeah, well, I was teaching a karate school, a karate class. What was doing, what was, what was happening? See, I used to hang out at this community center in the hood. At this time I moved from, from Brooklyn to Bridgeport, Connecticut. Right.

Bridgeport's a tough neighbor.

Yeah, yeah, it was.

A lot of people don't know.

Yeah, we had the top murder rate per capita, man.

Like, Bridgeport's rough.

Oh, yeah, yeah. So I was constantly. I mean, there's a community center that was like my haven and I would go practice with me and my other karate nuts, you know, and so I'd be in the, in the paper for winning heavyweight, you know, competitions or whatever. And so the people that was running the community center said, why don't you teach a class? They thought I was an adult.

Oh, that's hilarious.

And so I was teaching like a, you know, like kind of like just under the table. I was getting paid on the table, basically. But I had like close to 200 students early on, like when I'm 15, 16.

Oh, that's crazy.

Yeah, so, you know, it was kind of, kind of a trip this, you know, which is one of the reasons why I was a father at 15, you know, because I had one of my students, older sister, you know, was like, had a crush on her, her. On his instructor. But I was kind of living the life of a grown up like early on. And so, you know, there's, there's a faction of people in Bridgeport who think I'm Satan, I guess because they think that I'm probably in my 70s. You're a vampire, right? Yeah. So there was, there's some people, I had to admit, like, no, I wasn't the age you thought I was back then.

Oh, that's crazy.

Yeah. But I mean, so, yeah, one of the things I'm really grateful for is growing up that early and having to use my instincts and being that street fighting and fighting was my favorite thing to do, actually. And so when I got into the martial arts deeper and everything else, I just really dug into it and wanted to learn style after style and this, you know, everything. I was just a martial art nerd for it, but I also liked the realistic portion of it, even though I was doing other styles like Wushu and everything else. But, you know, it was actually my haven.

Somewhere Eddie Bravo has to find this video. There's a video of us working out together at Legends where we were talking about hopping sidekicks and different types of sidekicks, and you threw out. There was a bag that we had that had a shitty chain. But regardless, you threw a hopping sidekick on that chain, and the chain snapped and went flying. The bag went flying. And Eddie Bravo was like, what the fuck? It's a funny video, man. I know Eddie has it somewhere. I'll probably. I'll. I'll text him after this and try to see if he could put it up on his Instagram or something.

If he can find it. Yeah. Back then, man, we were training when it wasn't even popular. You know, I see you in the gym all the time. Yeah, all the time, man. And you were just think about this. Do you know it was 29 years ago last time you interviewed me. Yeah, that's right, 29 years ago.

That after Bob Costa show, he took a week off and I guest hosted it for a week.

And at that time you were already training with Maurice Smith.

Yes, Maurice was one of the guests.

Right, you were training Because I ended up training with Maurice Smith. You know, every time I go to Seattle, you know, we trained together. So, you know, we're like part of this, like, kind of karate, martial art, nerd culture.

Yeah.

When it wasn't even popular. No, I used to see you all the time. You know, you and, you know, doing jiu jitsu, Carl Parisian and all these guys. Legends. Where was another place. It was. We had. There was Legends and there was another place.

The Bomb Squad. Yes, the Bomb Squad was the first place that Eddie taught at. And then that place closed down. Then we went to Legends and then we moved to the other Legends that was like. And more east la. And then. Then Eddie started opening up his own place in downtown.

Yeah, yeah. And that's where I would. I would train with Josh Barnett at that place. Yeah, quite a bit.

Yeah.

Yeah, man.

The old days.

Yes, man. Yeah. And who's. Who would be coming through the gym? Because I would. I was Training. I was training Bob Sapp at one time, and then I. That's how I got Frankie Lyles connected into that.

Wow.

That whole thing. And so I remember Frankie.

Frankie used to be at the bomb squad first, right?

Yeah. Frankie was like my best friend in the world. And he was, you know, he was super middleweight champion in the world. That's who got me deeply into boxing. And so I would always be at his training camps, and, you know, I got to train with, like, Tommy Hearns and all these. All these amazing people, like Sugar Ray and all these guys.

Man, Frankie's a great boxing coach. Yeah, he one of the most technical. He's one of the most technical guys I've ever worked with. Like, he analyzed every aspect of your jab. He's pulling in your elbow, tightening this. He's moving you here. He's like. Like, he's showing all the, like, various basic, little, tiny details that make all the difference in the world.

Yeah, man, that. That. He was my. My, you know, personal boxing coach. You know, I. I would train with him, Joe Goosen, early on. But. But Frankie, I mean, we really kind of combined a lot of things because I started kind of teaching him things with the jab, like the untelegraphed type of stuff, and he started applying that, and he would bring me into stuff and, you know, have me show people like Sugar Ray, like, Mike, explain this jab, and I'm like, what? I'm explaining this to Sugar Ray. This feels ridiculous, right? But it was like, this combination because, like, I don't know, I'm very analytical, and I love technique, you know? And so I would just try to break things down. And my whole thing was always to pressure test things, you know? So if I could develop a tool or a skill and you can't stop it even if I tell you what I'm doing, then it's a really good technique, then it's legit.

The thing about no telegraph at all, it's so much more effective than a harder strike with a telegraph.

Oh, God. Yeah.

Because it lands.

Yeah.

But it's so difficult to teach people that, because everybody wants to hate everybody as hard as they can.

Yeah.

Especially if you have power. Your instinct is to fucking. To load up on everything. I remember I first saw you teaching that to Kimbo. Slice.

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

You were on a movie set.

Yeah, yeah. Because Kimbo. Oh, man. What a great guy.

What a great guy.

What a wonderful guy. So that's one thing about fighting. You can't hide your nature. You know what I Mean people see who you are. And he was a wonderful human being, but like, but like a lot of people, like almost like street basketball as opposed to, you know, professional, you miss out on certain techniques that you need when you're trying to step up, right? And so like, well, Kimbo, he would, like a lot of people, he would kind of telegraph. And so when we were shooting the movie, you know, and I basically, we had a cameraman that did not really know how to shoot stuff, so I just had to do everything on screen. And so I would, I would, I just wanted to make everything very realistic. And so Kimbo had this rubber knife and I was like, try your best to touch me with a rubber knife. And so he would try, but before, but as soon as he would move, there'd be a little bit of an indication that I'd see. And then I throw the punch and it would go really close to him and I have him react to that.

But he was going, wait, wait a minute, how are you hitting me before I can get this knife out? And then I told him, you know, I'll show you what that is later. Because, you know, kind of like, not to be real nerdish about it, but like, why, why are like 50 and 60 year old trainers meeting people's hands, like a 20 year old guy's contender's hands like this. You see the person with the pad moving just as much as the other guy because there's an indication, there's. They, they do this beforehand. They're always kind of flexing and going in reverse before they go forward. So just for over years, I wouldn't do that and I would exploit that, you know, so it's kind of like a cheat code that I'm like, hell, what the hell I'm gonna do with it? I'm an actor. So my thing is, just like yourself, when I see you with George St. Pierre and how we are always in the gym, we're kind of collaborating. We're where it's about just getting better. Not no ego or anything else like that. It's just like, hey man, we're like kind of, you know, kind of like jamming on, on technique and getting better.

Well, especially if you're running into someone who has a different style.

Yeah.

Because there's always something in different styles that you could take out of it.

Absolutely.

There's always something and we're seeing that now. There's all these different martial artists that are entering into MMA that are having these different techniques that people haven't seen before. And there's a lot of them that people dismiss that you're finding are very effective, especially if you don't know how to do them. You don't know what they are. So you don't. You have like a database in your mind of movements. Like I'm sure you see when a guy's loading up on a spin. Oh, yeah, everybody sees that. But if you don't know that, you don't see it, right?

And if you. If you were loading up, then you're not gonna. You're not gonna capitalize on it, right? Because you don't, you know, you're taking a. There's a millisecond that you're taking because your movement is not efficient.

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I tell you, man, like, I don't. Like, as in life, there's always something that you can gain from, you know, people want to. I don't know, people are in their own egos a lot of times, but, like, even wushu me is hard as hell for me. Doing wushu against guys half my size. It's not against, but it's a performance thing. Right. But if I can do all of the. And go to these, these very hard techniques of like, I gotta get down to the floor and I gotta. And body mastery. Yeah. At my size.

Right.

Well, then I'm better. So if I want to kick you in the eyebrow, I can, because it's about, you know, having my body do what my mind's telling it to Right. And so. But of course, people want to dismiss it because. Oh, that ain't real. You can't use it. Yeah. Good. Yeah. Just like ballet is hard as hell, you can't use that either. But anybody, any heavyweight who put themselves through ballet would be a better fighter, 100%.

Look at Lomachenko.

Yeah.

His dad taught him Ukrainian dance. Lomachenko, his dad pulled him out of boxing for two years when he was young.

Yeah.

And said, you're just going to do Ukrainian dance.

Yeah.

Like, what the fuck am I doing? But look at that guy's footwork.

Exactly. Exactly. And so. So it's. It's just that, as in life, man, I don't look at anything from one group and just discard any. Any other stuff.

I used to, when I was young.

Yeah.

And when I was young, I was pretty arrogant about certain things. I thought forms were stupid. All I wanted to do was spar and hit the bag.

Yeah.

Then as I got older, I realized there's a lot of wisdom in all this shit.

Oh, absolutely. But that's like, I say, I try to apply that to life, period. You know, I never look at anything from one perspective. I mean, I grew up in the hood, and I'm, you know, my favorite band is freaking. You know, the Eagles.

Really?

And, yeah, I mean, like, you know, and I'm listening to Jody Mitchell and all, and people like, what are you doing? Listening. I'm like, what the fuck? You know, this is my life, man. Fuck you. Like, do you. You hear these lyrics? You hear Jody Mitchell's lyrics, man, what the fuck? That's all for me, too. I mean, I'm just as passionate about, you know, Aerosmith as I am about the Isley Brothers. But I've never looked at life as I have to think in this parameter. You know, I've got to be marginalized. That's just. Man, come on. It's such a waste of life.

It is.

It's all for you, man. So I agree with the martial arts and everything else. I look at every martial art, just like everything else. Everything has something to contribute. Just like all people have something to contribute, even an idiot. You can learn from an idiot.

You can. A lot of idiots say wise things occasionally.

Yeah. Because everybody's going to have a quotient of legitimacy, maybe 20% as a thing. And they don't see the 80%, but until you acknowledge that 20%, they're not gonna hear you. You know what I mean? So that's the thing. It's like, man, we're on this planet. And one of the things I meant, I don't envy a whole lot of people, but, dude, I do envy you because you get to expand your world. You talk to so many interesting people. And that's. What a great thing. What a great thing to just have all these type of perspectives and all that coming through. And I gotta say, man, I'm super proud of you. Cause I know you as Joe from the gym and look what you've done, man. Thank you, man. It's like that, that's a. That's a shot in the arm. Because it's like people that you like and seeing them prosper, that's cool as shit.

Yeah, I've learned a lot, man. And I didn't expect to. You know, when we first started doing this, it was just for fun. We just get together with our friends.

You know, knew what you wanted to do, man. You were pretty damn clear because. Do you remember this? You remember me coming to. I think it was the Ice House in Pasadena. Yeah. No, no, no. Oh, shoot. It wasn't the Ice House. It was in. It was in Orange County. I came to see Comedy Magic Club, maybe. I came to see you perform and I offered you the role in Blood and Bone. Do you remember that at all?

I do, yeah. I do now. Yeah.

Because Blood and Bone, which is like actually Sony's most successful non theatrical, that was basically a kind of a re imagining of hard times with Charles Bronson and James Coburn. Great. Yes. Well, that role was basically that I was offering you was the James Coburn role. Right. And. But you were. So you was dead. And you said, I didn't. I don't want to do this acting stuff. I want to do. I want to focus on what I, you know, your interest, which was, you know, you stand up and you're getting together. I mean, I know you and Eddie were doing like kind of the early podcast type of stuff or whatever. And I'm like, man, you know, you really kind of knew what you wanted to do.

Well, the thing about acting is, I mean, I admire it, especially good acting, but it takes a lot of time.

Out of your day.

It's a 16 hour day. It's a long day. And it will take away from other things you do.

Yeah.

And I saw that with a lot of comics that they started doing acting and it would take away from their actual. Cause they really couldn't go and do sets every night. They couldn't really polish their material. You could see stuff getting a little clunkier and it's just you gotta focus. You gotta find the things you enjoy and focus on them.

Yeah. That's why I say I'm so proud of seeing. Just being there and seeing what you did. You being a part of the UFC when it was nothing promised, you know what I mean?

Not only was it not promised, but people looked at you like you were doing like snuff films or something.

Exactly.

They looked like. I remember the early days. Dana White always says those people would talk to you like you're doing porn or something.

Right, right.

Like, I was on news radio, the sitcom on NBC, and I was doing commentary where I was doing post fight interviews for the ufc, and they were like, why are you doing this? Why are you flying to Alabama and doing cage fights?

See, this is what movies are good. Movies are made of like this, you know, somebody just on or just out of their spirit, doing what they want to do with no promise of anything and then accomplishing something. So, you know, kudos, man.

Oh, thank you.

Seriously, man.

Well, for me and I'm sure for you as well, when we were young, there was always a question, what is the best style? Is it kyokushin? Is it judo? Is it Kung fu? What is it? What's the best style? And no one really knew. I mean, Benny the Jet fought in a bunch of those no rules fights early, early on, but they never really took off. There wasn't. There wasn't a lot of those, you know, And Benny was obviously a very special fighter.

Oh, yeah. But, yeah, he was one of my teachers, too.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah.

I trained at his gym. Those are. He was on the podcast with Blinky. Blinky Rodriguez recently. And I told them, I said, when I came to la, there was two places I had to go. I had to go to the Comedy Store and I had to go to the Jet Center. Had to go to the Jets.

Yeah.

And I was there in 94, right before it went under because the. The earthquake damaged their roof.

Exactly.

And so when the rainy season came.

It was on Fire street right now from the Goosens.

Yep. Yeah, yeah, right down.

Yeah.

And that. That was an honor, man, to be able to train in that gym. That was incredible. It was incredible.

Oh, yeah, yeah. I used to be there. Yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah. Those are some great times. Because, I mean, I connect with Benny because when I was in Bridgeport, my instructor, Matty Malise, went to California and started training with Benny.

Oh, wow.

Early on, so he put that on the map about coming, you know, to the meta training with Benny.

It was the Mecca. Yeah. For kickboxing in the. Especially in the 90s, that was the Mecca. You had to go to the Jet Center.

Yeah, man. That was.

So we were always wondering, like, what is the style? What's the best style? And then the UFC came along. I'm like, oh, my God, they did it. They did it. They figured it out. They put it all together. And for a while it was Jiu Jitsu, because nobody understood Jiu Jitsu. And Hoist. Gracie was just running.

Well, you know, you know how that was kind of set up a little bit?

It was a little set up.

Yeah. Yeah.

But I mean, look, he had some challenges. Like, Ken Shamrock was a beast.

Oh, yeah.

He had some really good fighters. He was facing against Kimbo Slice. I mean, excuse me, not Kimbo Slice.

Not Chemo.

Chemo, sorry. Chemo was huge.

He was a big dude, but, you know, he didn't really.

Well, it was a hundred pound advantage.

Yeah.

Hit 100 pounds over a hoist.

The Gracies were smart. They were very smart at that time in knowing, you know, the right people to kind of pick at that time because, you know, there was some. There was some killers out there.

There were some killers out there, yeah, they definitely set it up, especially the early ones. But it's also, it's like, you know, that was. It was good for us to see a guy like Hoist who wasn't jacked. He was a slender guy who weighed 175 pounds and he was strangling everybody. And arm barring everybody, it was wild to see when he beat Dan Severin. Dan Severin was £260 and hoist tapped him off his back with a triangle.

Yeah, man, what a story. That put. That put Jiu Jitsu on the map. On the map big time. But, you know, one thing that always broke my heart is people never knew about Hixson.

Right.

Oh, my God. I know that dude. Yeah. That cat was like. I always consider him like, pound for pound, the best. Because he, he not. He had this, not only, you know, Jiu Jitsu skills, but just his concentration.

Yeah.

And he was almost like, you know, hypnotic.

Right.

You know what I mean? And just no waste of energy.

None.

Just unbelievable. What an amazing person to watch. I would encourage anybody to pull up his fights. Well, he did another great versus Goliath stuff.

Oh, yeah. Another great example of cross training too, because Hickson got really into yoga and everybody's like, what the fuck are you doing? Yoga? Like, yoga's for girls, right. Hickson got really into yoga and got super flexible and Suit and really good at controlling his breathing.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

And never got tired.

Yeah. You saw him in that. In the Hulk.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's something, man. That's. Talk about a legend.

Oh, real legend. Yeah.

Yeah, man.

Well, Hickson, there's a video of him and he did this multiple times where he would go to these gyms and he would teach a seminar, like a long seminar, and then roll with all the black belts and just tap them one after the other one. World champions. Guys that just didn't understand what was going on. Like, how is this happening? Oh, yeah, like, Paulofilio, when he was a WEC world champion and he was. He had won the mundials, I believe he'd won multiple Jiu Jitsu championships. And he, he trained with Hickson. He's like, man, it's true. Because I can't believe it. He goes, that guy treated me like I didn't even belong in there. It was crazy. And Hickson by that time was probably like 40.

Yeah.

You know, and it's still just dominating guys on the mat and effortless. It wasn't strength, it was. It was just pure technique and basics and just. Yeah.

Mastering of basics.

Oh, yeah, basics. It was like, there's none of the. No Baron bolos and no X guard, nothing crazy. Everything he did is like Jiu Jitsu 101, but to a masterful, masterful degree.

Yeah, it was incredible. And telling people that, you know, because everybody know hoist. And I'm like, do you. You guys don't know who his big brother is?

His brother.

Yeah.

He would openly say that my brother's 10 times better than me, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, that's. That really put. And I love Jiu Jitsu because it's held up the tradition that martial arts. So much karate lost because it became a business. And people would just, you know, put their time in and pay for their black belts.

Right.

And it just watered it down. All these people running around saying that they're master this and, you know, grand, whatever, and all these made up things. And it's like, oh, yeah, the guy's a master in an Asian martial art. That's a English word, right? You know, I mean, how did, how did master sneak its way into it? Yeah. But anyway. But, you know, male ego, you know.

Well, the thing about martial arts other than Jiu Jitsu is when you're sparring, it's very controlled. Like, a lot of karate sparring is very controlled. A lot of taekwondo sparring is very Controlled. But in jiu jitsu, the beautiful thing about grappling is, you know how good everybody is because they all sparring, they're all rolling with each other, and they essentially go on full blast until the tap.

Yeah.

And so you. There's no hiding. No hiding your skill.

Yeah. I love what Eddie Bravo used to say. Basically, when you won, I killed you.

Yeah, Yeah.

I just killed you.

Yeah.

You know, so that's like, wow, that is a trip. Because it's like, it actually works out that way.

Oh, yeah. If he gets you in a triangle and you tap, it's because you were about to go to sleep.

Yes.

And once you're sleepy, you just stomp your head into a pancake.

Yeah. Yeah. You're done. Yeah.

Just hold onto that triangle. And then you never wake up.

Yeah. What a humbling thing. Yeah, yeah.

Very humbling. Yeah. And what's really humbling is how quickly someone can do it to you when you don't know what you're doing. Like, that was shocking to me because I had all this martial arts experience and I first started training, I was like, what's someone going to do to me? I wrestled in high school. I'm strong, I'm fast. I don't know how to fight. I just got manhandled over and over and over again.

Oh, yeah.

This is ridiculous.

Yeah. See that? But kudos, because a lot of people, because if you got an egotistical thing going and you get that your little, I don't know, you're comfort because you got your black belt and all that kind of stuff, that means Jack nothing. Everybody I know who continues and really to learn real fighting knows when you had a boxer beat the hell out you, and you go, oh, wait, there's a lot of this stuff I gotta toss out the window.

Yeah.

Cause I mean, I never forget, like, times where, you know, like, a wrestler gets to me or a boxer, like, pieces me up. Like, early on, I'm like, no, I got to learn this. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I went through several of those. I went through one of them in high school because I have a. Had a friend in high school that was a wrestler, and I didn't think anything of wrestling. I'm like, that's not even a martial art. And then we wrestled on the grass one day, and he just took me down at will.

Yeah.

I was like, this is ridiculous. Like, he was pinning me down. I couldn't. I couldn't move. I couldn't get up. I'm like, this is stunning.

Right.

I thought I'M strong.

Yeah.

I thought I could move. I thought, I'll be able to get out of the way. I had no chance.

Yeah.

And he wasn't even a great wrestler. He was just a decent wrestler, and he just humbled me over and over and over again. So then I started wrestling. Then when I got into taekwondo, I thought, I'm really good at taekwondo. I was competing on a national level. I won the state championships four years in a row. I was people up. And then I remember the first time I boxed with a really good amateur boxer. I was like, oh, Lord. And this kid was, like, 18 years old, and I was at the gym, and he went on as a kid. His name is Dana Rosenblatt. He went on to become New England middleweight champion. He beat Vinny Pazienza.

Oh, shoot.

Okay. He beat Howard Davis Jr. As a professional. He was a really good boxer.

Wow. Yeah, he had to be.

But he was kickboxing at the time, and I was gonna get into kickboxing, and so I was sparring with him. But when I was boxing with him, I was just getting lit up. I was like, oh, also, when we're kickboxing, the moment he got close to me, I was in trouble.

Right.

I was like, oh, no. Like, Taekwondo had too many flaws. The hand techniques. So I had gone through that. And so then I thought, okay, well, now I understand kickboxing. Then I met a dude who went to Thailand a bunch of times and was training Muay Thai and fighting over there. And then I started learning leg kicks. I'm like, well, oh, good Lord. Now all they have to do is kick my legs. I didn't even think of that. But then I started really paying attention to WKA fights, like the old Dennis Alexio days on the Dragon Wilson. Leg kicks. Leg kicks are everything. Oh, my goodness.

Yeah.

And then I'm like, okay, well, now I got a solid foundation. I understand how to fight. And then I started getting jiu jitsu. Like, oh, no. Back to square one. Yeah, I'm getting raped, getting mauled on the mats. But I'd been through that so many times and restarted so many times, I was like, well, it's time to learn this now.

Yeah, that's. That's what I'm saying, is everything has something to teach you. Yeah. And, you know, even. Even though there's that. It's a martial art, there's a fantasy world which is. I look at it as hilarious. You know, there's this. You know, I don't know, there's sometimes I would say it like this, like with martial arts, is the Dunning Kruger effect in the largest way possible. Because everybody out there has an opinion of martial arts, though very few people really know what it is. You know, they want to look at the movies and everything, and they really want to believe that. They want to believe that this guy who, you know, kicks in the air and all that kind of stuff will be able to beat a champion. And in a way, hey, I benefit from that to some degree because they think that about me. But. But, you know, even though I'm comfortable fighting, and I love to. I mean, I just love fighting against anybody.

But you've had actual competition experience, Like, a lot of competition experience.

Yeah. But my best experience is with, like, I got the chance to train against champions at their place, you know, when they're at their best. And it's not an ego thing. It's just like. Like, I love to be able to test myself. And I mean, because I'm my biggest competition. And so that whole thing about just what the bow means to me is like, thank you for making me better by providing me an obstacle. And the higher the, you know, the better the person, the better I can become, 100%. And so I loved it. So I, you know, for years, I'm in there with Gokan Saki and, you know, Maurice Smiths and, you know who, you know, you name it. I've gotten. I consider myself one of the luckiest, like, martial artists on the planet because I get to train with so many people sometimes, you know, at my house. And, you know, I've got all these, you know, former champions, you know, training and Rampage. When he was champion, I go to his place and, you know, and honestly, like, the things I brag about is when I get humbled, you know. Cause that's when I learn something for sure.

My philosophy is I love to be wrong because every time I'm wrong, I learn something.

Absolutely.

And so, like, some of the best times for me is like, I know when I was, you know, Michael Bisping was getting ready for. To fight George St. Pierre, and we were in Thailand, I was like, yeah, you know, let's. Let's, like, let's mix it up. Let's.

What were you doing in Thailand?

Oh, we were doing a movie out there.

Oh, wow.

But he had to train. He was getting ready for the George St. Pierre fight. And so, you know, I was like, yeah, let's do some rounds or whatever. And I got so winded the second round, I'm like, dude, just whoop my ass. I feel so, like. Like I'm embarrassed. I shouldn't.

Bisping was a cardio machine.

Yes, he was.

He was a cardio machine.

I didn't expect that because we were. We spent all day on a yacht the day before, and he was drinking nonstop. I'm a non drinker, right. I'm like, this guy's gonna, you know. Eh. I'm gonna probably take it easy on him today.

He is one of the toughest motherfuckers that ever fought in the sport. I swear, this is what I say about him. No matter what you think about watching his fights, you have to understand, not only did he accomplish so much, he accomplished a lot of it with one eye. One fucking eye. He had 11 fights in the UFC with a winning record with one eye.

Yeah. Crazy. Yes. Yeah, that. That's, man.

He would memorize the eye chart so that when they covered his eye, he could side it out. Like, he could read it.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

How crazy is that?

He's got a hell of a. He's got a hell of a personal story, too. I was trying to encourage him to get that. Get that made, you know? Like, I. Honestly, man, I. I really. I really look at these UFC fighters and you, you know, the MMA guys as our modern day heroes. They're our gladiators. And so whenever I have a chance, man, I always like to put them in movies and try to expose them to another kind of way of, you know, getting paid.

Yeah.

Especially afterwards, because some. It breaks my heart that they're heroes and then they get discarded sometimes, but not by the union that they're with, but just by the fans. They're so fickle sometimes.

Yes, well, the casuals, the people that aren't really martial artists.

Right. Yeah.

So you dismiss a guy when they lose a few.

Yeah, I just did my. My third movie with. With Cowboy Cerrotti. You know, we just finished a little over a week ago.

Oh, that's awesome.

Yeah, he's doing really good, man.

I love that.

Yeah. Yeah, me too.

That's a guy that could really legitimately transition to become a movie star.

Yes, yes. And he's got a lot more confidence. This is, like I said, the third movie. I didn't. I did a. He did a Western with me, Outlaw Johnny Black. I wrote and directed it, but I had. I had Cowboy. I had Randy Couture in it.

Oh, wow.

And then Josh Barnett.

Randy's done an amazing job of transitioning.

Oh, absolutely.

The Expendables, you know, and he's great at it. Yeah, he has A great personality. Just very calm. Like he. Well, I remember one time he was fighting Tim Sylvia for the heavyweight title, and he came out there, he had a smile on his face. He looked over at me and he winked. I'm like, how is this motherfucker so relaxed before he's fighting? But he had a. An amazing perspective. He's like. He said to me, the people who love you will love you whether you win or lose. And he said, what's the worst thing that can happen? You lose. He goes, you've lost before.

Yeah.

It's no big deal.

Yeah. Remember him spanking Tito?

Yeah. He got top of his spanking. And when he had him down, Randy was an animal.

Yeah, well, when we, you know, he had that heart attack while he was shooting my movie.

That's crazy.

And this came back to set like nothing.

How did he have a fucking heart attack?

I don't. I don't remember how exactly it was. And I think he drove himself to the hospital. Yeah, man. Talk about an American hero, man.

I mean, I was there for his first fight.

Really? Yeah.

1997. Yeah. I was there for his very first fight.

Oh, shoot.

He fought this huge jack dude, took him down, mounted him, beat the shit out of him. It was wild. It was like that was the time where wrestlers had first started cracking this code.

Right, right.

There was this code of. There was a lot of people that thought, like, jiu jitsu was the only way. And then the elite wrestlers got in. Oh, God, the Mark Kerr's, The Mark Coleman's. He's. And then Randy, a bunch of these guys got in there and then they realized, like, if a guy could just take you down and beat the fuck out of you from the top, there's not a whole lot you could do about it.

Right, right.

And then we realized, like, boy, that is the corn. That's the true cornerstone of martial arts, the ability to take a guy down.

My goodness. I mean, what's harder than wrestling? I don't think there's any hardest sport in the world.

Yeah, the hardest sport in the world and the best sport in the world to get your kids into at a young age. Because the discipline and the mental toughness that they get will carry them through for the rest of their life.

Yep. Tenacity. Just the stick to itiveness, whatever you want to call it. Yeah. That's just like even high school wrestling.

I remember wrestling in high school, and I had already done martial arts, but I was like, I'd never trained that hard. I was like, I can't believe. And then it carried me over into my Taekwondo career because I realized, like, oh, I'm leaving a lot on the table. Like, I'm not training. Like, these guys are. So I started running. I started adding all these things to my training that I wasn't doing before. I started doing a lot more calisthenics, a lot more different things. I was like, I'm leaving something on the table. Because we were not training in the gym, and we were sparring hard, we were doing hard rounds. You'd get tired. But it was not the same as what we were doing in wrestling.

No one trains harder than wrestling that anaerobic stuff, man. That's. That's. Man, I got. I got the wrestling bug when I was in my. I was a senior in high school, and the football coach was a wrestler in college, and he challenged me. I think we did this two years in a row, my junior year and my senior year. At the end of the year, we'd wrestle. We'd just go like. You know, he and I. Like I said, I was big for my age.

Were you playing football?

I was for a very short time, but I ended up. I wasn't designed for. For team sports.

Me neither.

I ended up beating up the football coach.

Oh, no.

Yeah. I had a dude, like, I had. I had the worst temper than anybody I'd ever seen. I mean, I used to go into fits of rage. I was so angry early on, man. It's like, the Hulk is like, mike, you should chill out a little bit, man. Like, I was just.

It's probably from being on your own at 14. Yeah.

You know what it is, is, like, I was grow up in a very harsh environment, and I was. I didn't know I was an artist. I didn't know I was a writer, director, whatever, you know, they didn't. You didn't see those growing up where I am. Right. And so when you're sensitive, kid, man, what you do is you. You build armor like I was to play Mike Tyson later on. And I understood him quite well. And if you're sensitive, you. You know, anything that's precious, you put it in, you lock it in a safe, and you become the safe. And it's like, I grew up, my brothers were completely different. They're engineers, so things rolled off their back. But, like, for me, just. I was just volatile. And luckily, I had martial arts to kind of put my focus into. But like I said, like, I was the play Mike Tyson, I understood him a great deal. And, you know, even though you Take the moniker of this monster. It's only to hide what's really deep inside. And that's why you would see if anybody's going to go into tears in front of a million people, it's people like Mike Tyson.

And you go, how does that fit in the same person? Right? And so that's what I was growing up. And, you know, I don't know if you know this, but. But I was a school teacher before I was an actor.

Oh, really?

Yeah, I taught emd. I was a special ed teacher. So I focused on a lot of kids who were very much like me. And I still do that in a way. I consider that my real job. Whenever I'm off from work, on a movie or whatever, I go into the inner cities, I go into community centers. I devote my time because there's nothing that I could do. There's no better spending of time than something like that because I was luckily, luckily saved. I had just at the right times in my life, just different seeds planted. And so I'm confident that if those seeds were not planted, I would not be here. Because, like I say, I was been through some. Some crazy stuff.

It's a classic story.

Yeah, bro, man, like I tell you, like, just a little under two years ago, a buddy of mine who's a close friend of mine, he got out of prison. He was in prison for almost like 30 years. And he found me on Facebook. And so when I went back east, we linked up and I said, and, you know, I know a lot of people who have businesses and everything. I hooked him up, you know, got him a job. And we were sitting over lunch and. And in the middle of him telling me like, the third or fourth story, like back in the glory days of us or whatever, while he was in the middle of this story, I was, you know, kind of getting myself set to kind of set him straight. Because I don't know if you want to call this superstitious, but I won't lie. I refuse to lie to my friends. I even. I won't lie by omission. So I was getting set to tell him, dude, man, you gotta stop embellishing on these stories just because you were locked up and you made these stories sound bigger than life. Right, I get it, but that's not real.

You gotta really, you know, kind of not do that. And in the middle of me thinking that and I'm listening to it, him, I go, holy shit, he's telling the truth. I started remembering what he was telling me, and I'm like, Now I'm finishing his sentences. Not only was that story true, but the other ones were true, too. And, dude, like, I swear, every time I think about this, I. I got these goosebumps, and I realize, oh, my God, how close I was to being where he was or just not being on this planet. Right? Like, I better devote my time into helping kids the way I was helped.

Yeah. Don't pull that ladder up.

No, no. Hell no. Hell no. Even if I'm taken out, I. I accept that. Even if I'm in some projects where. Where I'm not supposed to be and I shouldn't have been, I accept that. Because, dude, I am abundantly lucky. Like, it's. It doesn't even. It doesn't even fit on the radar how lucky I am. And I could remember a lot of these crazy stories, you know, aside from the ones that he made me conjure back up, but, man, I'm like, wow.

Well, that speaks to your character, that you had downplayed it all in your mind so much that you thought he was exaggerating.

I swept it under the rug.

Yeah.

I. I.

You know, because you're not that person anymore.

No, no, but, I mean, but there was so much. There was so many events, things that would. I just call it on a Wednesday that I went through that. It's like. I don't know. Like, I think. I wouldn't trade it because I. I continue to be the happiest guy I know because of. I think some of that.

Because you can appreciate the good times.

Oh, my God. Yeah. And I should be slapped if I complain about anything.

Right?

You know what I mean? Like what? And so, you know, so I just. Boy, I just know. I'm so blessed. And you know, what we do, what we're doing even right now, man, we're. We're in the service industry, man. You know, you're here to serve, in my opinion. That's what we're all here for. And, you know, it's great that we get to serve, and doing the things that we would like to do inspired us.

That's definitely a lot of what we do. I mean, there's definitely a lot of it. Right? You entertain. But I feel very blessed that I've been able to expose people to so many different ways of thinking, so much information, so many different human beings that have led completely different paths that can tell you about whatever discipline they're involved in, what they've learned and what we're working on right now and what you can learn about the human mind. The body, ancient history. Fill in the blank, like whatever it is.

Yeah, yeah. And I see you do that over and over and you utmost honesty. I remember, like, when you had to kind of pull shab aside and toe as a friend, some things that are hard for people that, you know, other friends to tell him, you know, and.

Like, that was real hard. Yeah, well, that was real hard because I love that guy. He's a great. He's a great person. He's a great human being. And I knew the path. I'd seen it too many times, but I hadn't seen it with someone I was that close with. I was like, you have to stop. Because you not only you're in the heavyweight division, so the knockouts are brutal, and you're gonna get three or four more in the next couple of years, and then you're not gonna recover from those.

But, man, so many people, I hope they take a page out of that because it's so non manly, I feel, to just not say anything and allow somebody you love to go down the road, I mean, that, that might be detrimental for them.

Well, it was also Shaub had another path. He was really good at podcasting. He's fun. He's a funny dude, right? Yeah, he's like, as a podcast, he's like, got a great personality. He's. He's silly, you know, he's a big, giant, silly dude.

Yeah.

Like, we would have so much fun. And he was doing really well, and he was making more money doing that than he was fighting.

Yeah.

But his identity was so wrapped up in him being a top 10 UFC heavyweight.

Right.

You know, he had beat world class guys like Mirkoff, you know, and he was legit, man. But though that time had passed and I saw that his. He was one foot in and one foot out, and as soon as the guy's one foot in, one foot out, you're gonna run into some guy who has both feet in and he's a fucking samurai. And then you're gonna wake up on a stretcher. You're on the way to the hospital going, what happened? And you don't remember the fight. You don't remember nothing. And then you don't know where your keys are. You forget people's names, you tell the same story over and over again, and then you struggle to put sentences together. When you start seeing dudes with the slur, nothing's worth that because you're. I mean, at the time, he's only 35 years old or whatever, he was like, man, you got another 45, 55 years of life. You. You can't do this. You can't. You. You can't sacrifice all these years for glory that will never be achieved anyway because you're not on that path anymore.

Yeah. And it's not about what strangers say about you.

No.

It's about, you know, your friends, your family.

Yeah.

Really love you.

It's just so hard for people to abandon that identity. That's the hardest thing with fighters, is to abandon that identity. We've seen so many guys, even the greats, they come back and they shouldn't. And you see it, and you see them get humiliated.

You're like, oh, yeah. Yeah. When it comes down to it, these people, they don't love you, man. Like, a lot of, you know, it's.

They love you as the image.

Yeah. They live vicariously through you. I remember. I remember one time I was in a fight in Boston, and I remember when something completely changed. Usually if anybody. Because I did any kind of thing, I would do kickboxing or this tournament. I just loved my best. I think the thing I did best in the world was fighting. I had this. I always had these cheat codes, in a way, and I enjoyed the. The chess match of it. And anybody who was against me, I don't care if you were my cousin or whatever, you were gonna pay for all the angst that I've had in my life. But until there was this one time, I swear I ducked a technique. I caught somebody with something that was kind of, you know, kind of cool. And I just remember the audience just cheering. And in that moment, I was like, just angry. Kind of like, yo, this guy could really be messed up. Right now. You're cheering for me. You're living vicarious through me like I'm a pit bull or something, right? And I got angry at the audience. I fucking hated them. And I said, because if I was down on the ground, you'd be cheering for the person that put me down.

And something just snapped. And I go, no, this is not enough for me. This is not what I want to do. And, you know, just something snapped. And I much rather be skillful, test myself in a skillful way. And I much rather not try to peel your head off, but show I could, as opposed to, you know, that triumph of dominating you. It was nothing for me anymore in that, you know, and just something. Just something just rubbed me the wrong way. And I just. Anytime I would do any kind of competition, it was for me, and it wasn't for an audience, you know, just Something soured. I always thought at one time, I'm gonna be called out, you know, And I thought, oh, I'll rise to that occasion if that happens. And, you know, kind of like, remember the thing with you and Wesley, which would have been, oh, my God, that would have been terrible. But. Oh, yeah. But I always thought, hey, you know, maybe. You know something?

I think Wesley just needed money. I mean, that was one.

I don't think he'd ever be. I don't think that was ever serious. But it's very much like.

I think we were in negotiation for quite a while, man. We had lawyers involved.

Yeah. It's always easy to pull a plug on something like that. Just like John Claude's talking about fighting Jake. Jake Paul, right?

Is he talking about that? Right. He's 100 years old.

Yeah.

I'm like, he weighs 50 pounds.

He's 100 years old. I'm like, come on, man. Come on.

Is he really talking?

I just saw something in the last couple days.

I'm like, I think Wesley was serious, because I think they had. They had hit him with that tax case, and he owed a lot of money.

This is before that tax case.

No, no, no. It was in the middle of it.

Really?

Yeah. 100. I know. It was. Yeah, yeah. It was 2000. I want to say five or six. It was in the middle of all that. And he was in trouble. It was. It was serious. And he, you know, obviously eventually wound up going to jail.

Yeah. Yeah.

So they were going to set up a fight with him and Jean Claude Van Damme? That was the first fight. But campbell. Yeah, Campbell McLaren from the UFC was like, no one gives a about you fighting Jean Claude Van Damme. You got to fight someone who's current. And so he said, let me contact Joe Rogan. He called me up, and he said, would you be willing to fight Wesley Snipes? And I was like, what? And I was like, come on. Really? I go, what is this? And so I said, let me think about it.

It.

I thought about it. I called him the next day. I said, let's do it.

Really?

Yeah. I was training with Rob Cayman in the mornings, and then I was doing jiu jitsu at night. I trained twice a day for six months.

Wow.

I was always tired. I was always tired. That's one thing that I realized. Like, man, to be like. And I wasn't even a professional, really, but it was training like a professional. It's like, I can't believe how tired I am all the time. But, you know, I Think Wesley had never really had a fight. I don't think so. I think he was. He was an accomplished martial artist. He had good technique.

I trained with Wesley's instructors. You know, Marcus Elgato was a good friend of mine, and. And also Lamar Thornton, who was Marcus Elgato's instructor. That's. I believe the. That's the only. That's the. The lineage I. I believe that he's through. But, I mean, I've never. I've known Wesley since way before he was kind of Wesley.

I was a giant fan of Wesley, which is also wild for me, because I love Blade. Blade was like my favorite comic book when I was a kid.

Yeah. Yeah. I just didn't. I didn't think they were serious about. I didn't. I could. I couldn't imagine. Why would Wesley. I always thought it was not real.

I think Wesley thought that I was just a grappler and think he knew that I was doing jiu jitsu. I don't think he knew my background. And so, like. Like, they were. Wesley was talking to them, saying, oh, he. He thinks he's going to be able to stop you from taking him down, and he's going to catch you with a knee where you're coming in to try to take him down. Like, I go, oh, he wants to stand up.

Yeah.

I go, I'm way better at that.

Yeah. Yeah. I was wondering how that even occurred. I didn't think that was serious. I was like, okay, it was serious.

Yeah, it was serious. It went on for a long time. It was a lot of negotiation to the point where I even talked about it on the UFC broadcast once. I said, come on, Wesley, sign the contract. I'm getting bored training. Let's do this. Like, I have to do it now. I was like, 35 or 36. I was like, I don't have much time left. If we're gonna do this, we have to do this now. Like, come on, let's go. And then he decided not to. And then I'm like, that's probably for the better.

Yeah. I knew Wesley for a while. I remember when he was first telling me about the sovereign being. Sovereign.

Yeah. That's where they got him with that. Sovereign citizenship.

Yeah. And I was like, I'm.

I wish I was friends with them.

I would have said, dude, they're gonna lock you up. I was. I'm super protective of my friends. I've always been that way. And with Wesley, I was always like. My thing is, he used to have people around him that I'm like, you know, we have little get togethers at my house, whatever. I'm like, don't bring any of those or it's going to be a problem, you know, because there's. There's people that just, I felt like were hangers on and, you know, that kind of a thing. And I was always like, yeah, man, you. Are you good? And, you know, are you staying healthy? I've always been that way because the way I look at it, he's a big brother. If not for him, it may not be for me. You know, he gave me some good advice early on. He always encouraged me that if I'm doing. If I have a movie that's overseas, get there, you know, show up in those overseas markets, let them know that you're down, you know, and I took that to heart and that helped me out in my career a great deal. And so, you know, I look at it like that.

I'll never say anything derogatory about him or whatever. So, I mean, I'm always. I just recently tried to reach out to him, like a couple days ago, just to check in, man, because I, you know, I wish him the best and, you know, I want to want him to, like, really, you know, start kicking ass again.

I would love to see him return as Blade.

Yeah, that would be cool.

He could do it too.

Yeah. Yeah.

An older Blade. He could do it.

Yeah.

Fuck, he was good in the original Blade. That's the opening scene. That was one of the best scenes in any action movie of all time. When it's that vampire party and the sprinkler starts spraying blood.

Yeah.

And they're about to kill that dude. All of a sudden, Wesley shows up.

Yeah, man. What really gets on my nerves is that, you know, he saved Marvel, man. That movie saved Marvel, you know. Right.

Oh, yeah. That movie was a huge hit.

Even Stan Lee admits that they were, like, in trouble until that movie.

And that crazy superhero movies are the biggest fucking movies in Hollywood right now. I mean, when they have a big budget movie, superhero movies are like the only movie that you can throw hundreds of millions of dollars and be sure it's gonna kill it in the box office.

Yeah.

Whether it's the Avengers or Spider man or Superman or whoever the fuck it is. That's the only kind of movie that Hollywood's like, yeah, okay, we'll throw 500 million at this one.

Yeah. And, you know, it's. It's. I'm not a big fan of those things. I. I know it's not. They. They didn't design it for people like me. Right. So it's for the fan base. And to me it's like, you know, I, they, they, they tend to meld into each other as far as I'm concerned.

They do, yeah, they do. There's only so many times you could tell the stories, you know?

Yeah.

But I, I still enjoy them. I still enjoy some of them. They're fun.

Yeah. I like when people are believable.

Right?

Believable. Yeah.

There's nothing believable about those movies.

Yeah. You know, like the actors that are like, you know, have some quirkiness and some, some, you know, edge to them. Right. So. Yeah, yeah. You know, maybe I'm being unfair because I had really hadn't seen a lot. Maybe I owe it to myself to give some of.

No, I think you got it. It's simple entertainment. It's a silly release, an escape. That's all it is. It's not a great. There's no great films that are superhero films, right?

Yeah. Because sometimes I'm like, oh, yeah, she's 90 pounds and she just threw a guy. Okay.

Like Charlie's Angels or something.

Oh my God.

Kicking off stilettos and it'.

Anytime somebody lands in a three point stance and then looks up, I'm like, I just changed the channel. Yeah. I'm just like, stop, just stop.

Yeah.

But you know, people love those things. I'm like, that's cool.

I don't know why they have so much appeal, especially in the American market. People. That is one of the only movies that you can make that's guaranteed to be huge.

Yeah, it's McDonald's, man. It's McDonald's. But I remember when.

That's it.

Yeah, I remember when you had. What was that? Like the 300. You know, that was like nobody knew anybody, right? But that was just such a breath of fresh air. Cause it looked like some badasses that were real. You know what I mean? I'd like to see more of that kind of a thing. Like, you know, not the star power thing, but just some motherfuckers that you believe. You know what I mean? That would, you know, that would attract me.

Also, the style of that movie was so unique. Cause it blended fantasy with reality. It blended like a history too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what? I got some, some things in, in the works. Do you? Yeah. What are you working on? Oh, man, I've been blessed, man. I've got some really good movies coming out and some things that I'm planning on doing. Really, I'm getting to a place where I'm really shooting the things that I want. And I've been producing and all that stuff. So, you know, so, you know, I have movies that have their. Have their body count, but also have a little bit of, like, something to say.

You know what I miss?

What's that?

Spawn.

Oh, man. A lot of people.

Yeah, people forgot about Spawn. You don't hear about it anymore, right? Yeah, man, that was fucking great.

Yeah, I had my. Man, you didn't. Most people didn't see the first adaptation of it. The first. Well, I saw a cut of the movie before. I mean, at this time, it had like 71 special effects in it. But Bob Shea, at the time that was running New Line, liked that version. He just gave the director a cart botch to just add whatever he wanted. And the director was a special effects guy. So he started throwing special effects in there that was really killing the story. Which kind of drove me up a wall. Because then, like, you didn't even see why my character wanted to get back. You didn't even see the life that I wanted to get back to because there was so much special effects. And even when I saw the final version, I'm like, what the hell is going on? People that knew Spawn, they were fine with it because they understood the character. But for me, it was like the story got all convoluted, but like, you know. But I mean, people love it. It was a. I think it was a thing for its time. But unfortunately, I saw a version of it that made you care about it.

I understand. But I cared about the one that I saw. And I felt like I don't understand how Spawn sort of escaped the zeitgeist. You don't ever hear about Spawn anymore. You know what I mean? There's all these superhero films, all these different things, but Spawn was unique. And it was really good and dark.

Yeah, I always said if they did another one should do it just like the comic book. Make it hard. R or non rated. Because I mean, like, to do a spawn PG, how we did PG 13.

Yeah.

It's like, what do you want? You trying to go for breakfast cereal like Spawn O's or something like. Like, come on, man, let's go hard. Like the cartoon, right?

See if you find a clip from Spawn. Because it's. I. I feel like no one talks about it anymore. It's kind of weird.

They damn sure talked to me about it, bro.

It was good. What year was this?

97.

Wow. Yeah, they were great, man.

Now Stay, Sean off.

The night is young.

Evil has a new enemy.

Justice has a new weapon.

And the world has a new hero. The memories, bro.

That was a great movie, man. New Line Cinema presents. Yeah, that was a great movie. How many did you guys do?

One.

Just one.

Just one.

There was nothing else. Wasn't there something else, like a series?

It was a cartoon first.

That's right.

Yeah. Well, it was comic book, then it was a cartoon on hbo.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah. Keith David was the voice of Spawn on that one. Yeah. Yep. And so.

Yeah, but that was a big hit.

Frisches obst undackiges GE muse von Aldi.

Imma gut imag Immer Phil feldig kurzgesagt Frisches.

I think so. Who made his money back?

Yeah, I mean, I remember it was very popular. Like, everyone who's talking about people got excited about. Especially people like me that like the comic books.

Right.

They were very into it.

Yeah.

I was always surprised. But it just. It's weird to me that. That. That even the comic book spawn doesn't get brought up anymore.

Right. Yeah. Every now and then, like, when, like, I'm off doing a movie, whatever, I drive by comic book stores, I go, and I just start signing shit. Right? The Spawn stuff. So there's still stuff there?

Oh, yeah. There's always gonna be a hardcore fan base. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, there's people, like. There's still hardcore about that. And then Todd McFarlane has talked about doing another spawn for the last 25 years. It would be huge. But the weird thing is, it's like, okay, I wish you all the best of luck, bro, but you created the comic book. When he's talking about doing another Spawn, I'm like, you haven't done a first.

One, like the comic book?

No, he's not a director. Like, he's. It's just like, Stan Lee hasn't directed a Marvel movie, right. And Todd McFarlane is talking about doing another Spawn. But I'm like, well, that would be the first time a person that created a comic book directed and produced a movie that I know of. Right? Because even though he talks about he's going to do one. And he had this concept that he talked to me about. Then he said he wanted to, you know, I guess he wanted to use Jamie Foxx. And he talked about this concept that Spawn would be. You wouldn't see him, and it's like. Like Jaws. He would never be around, but just. People would get fucked up. All of a sudden, they're you know, like a mist would come in. Their people are destroyed. I'm like, good luck with that. You know? I don't know. But he's been talking about it for a while, and people say, oh, man, I'm sad that you're not the next spawn that they're using. Jamie. I'm like, when is it going to happen? He's been saying that for a long time, but I'm going, hey, maybe somebody is going to give him that amount of money to do a movie when he's never directed anything before.

Right? He hasn't directed anything before. He visited set a few times because he created a comic book. Directing a movie is something completely different. You know what I mean? So I'm like, all power to you if that's happening. But it's like, I wonder why people believe it.

Yeah, that's a lot to bite off, especially a movie like that, which would probably be a large budget.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, but.

And then you're gonna get the executives involved and they're gonna fuck with it because they always have to have their say.

Yeah, man. It's a. It's a miracle that a movie gets done the way it's intended, period.

Yeah.

I'm like, a lot of times when a movie works, I go, how did some executive not fuck this movie up?

Right.

Right. I mean, I'm always like, there's only.

A few guys that can get away with a movie where everybody just leaves them alone. There's a few Tarantinos out there. Everybody just let them go. Just let them go.

Yep. Yeah.

If you tried to make Once Upon a Time in Hollywood and you weren't a successful director, you were just some guy with an idea, someone would come along and fuck that up.

Absolutely. Yeah, Absolutely. Luckily, I'm. People are leaving me alone. I've been. I've been directing and, you know, doing my own thing. They go, okay, you got this. Okay. Like I said, I'll give you the body count. But now if I could put stuff in it, you know, what is going.

On with Jamie Foxx doing Tyson? Cause that's been rumored for a decade at least.

Yeah. That's another thing. It's, like, weird that Jamie Foxx wants to do a Tyson and a Spawn, but it's like, I don't. I don't take it personal. Very talented guy, but, yeah, I think Jamie does a very good impression of Mike Tyson.

Yeah, but you gotta gain, like, £100, right? And then Jamie's gotta get. He's gotta pack on that meat at 50.

But then why I just sit there and I go, why? When Tyson's life itself has been very, you know, transparent. Right. And so you can see the real guy in. In documentary form and everything else. What story do you have to tell?

That's true.

I'm not trying to be a hater, but I'm like. I just. I'm. I'm just curious.

The only thing that would be interesting is seeing, like, Jamie do it. Seeing him put, like, he pulled off Ray Charles, like, seeing him pull it off. That would. That would be the appeal of it, I think.

Right. But in my personal opinion, I don't think that's enough. You got to tell the story, right?

I know what you're saying.

Yeah, you got. It's got to be some compelling story. I mean, hell, I mean, people saw Titanic. You know how it's gonna end. But you had to. He had to present a story there, you know?

But Jamie is so versatile.

He is.

I mean, there's very few guys that can do all the different things that he can do. He could sing, he can act, he could do stand up, and he could do all kinds of different characters, and he's so believable in so many different roles. You know what I watched the other day, which is a fucking great movie that I forgot was so great, is Collateral.

Oh, hell yeah.

Oh, my God.

No, no. When Jamie had Collateral and Ray, to me, like, there was. You couldn't have had a better year, right?

Two completely different human beings.

Oh, my God. Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, so, I mean, and he became those people.

He became Ray Charles.

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And as good as he can sing, him singing as Ray Charles was insane.

It's one of the best, I mean, performances ever, ever, ever.

But so is Collateral. He really played that dude in Collateral. You believed it. And fucking Tom Cruise. Oh, my God.

Tom Cruise really proved something to me in that damn movie, because I've never been think. I would never think I would ever be scared of Tom freaking Cruise.

Right.

And how convincing he was.

He's a bad motherfucker. Yes, he is a bad. He's crazy as batshit, but he's a bad motherfucker.

You have brought it in that you.

Have to be that crazy to do all the stunts that that guy does. 60 years old, he's jumping off buildings and shit, breaking his ankle.

Yeah, just like Johnny Depp. Like, I'm like Johnny Depp when he did Black magic. Like, I'm like, oh, you had that in you.

Right? Right.

Holy Shit. And just like with Tom Cruise, I'm like, him having that character in him.

There's a scene in Collateral that tactical instructors play.

Yes. The scene when they double tap, like, he whips it back. Double tap, double tap.

He knocks the guy's gun out of the way, pulls it out, and it's so fast and so smooth. See if you can find that scene, Jamie. It's a scene where they're trying to take Tom Cruise's briefcase.

Yeah.

And he's in an alleyway.

Yep. Yeah, that. I played that over and over myself.

The amount of times that he must have drilled that to get that, unholster the gun, pull it out, shoot him, shoot the other dude. So smooth. And the way he did it. So professional. I mean, looks like a legit hitman.

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, that. That was. That. That. That character, I mean, from start to finish, like, to me, proved a lot.

Yeah. I mean, he embodied that guy.

And, you know.

Is that my briefcase?

Is it your briefcase? Yeah, it is.

Why, you want it back?

What about your. What. What else you got for me, huh?

Come on, son.

Yeah, I actually visited that set when they were shooting that. No, not. Not that scene. But it was another. It was another day. And it was. I remember it was weird because they were shooting something and they were shooting Tom behind Tom Cruise's head, and he had eight camera angles just behind his head. I'm like. And I'm looking at the. You know, the video village where they made sure they had. They had a choice of whatever perfect thing that they want. They. It was the craziest thing. I'm like. And I guess Michael Mann, he's known for, like, shooting a lot, but it was like, eight cameras. That's just behind the dude.

That's crazy.

Yeah. I'm like, this is a whole nother, like, level. Yeah. It was crazy.

Great movie. That movie holds up.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That. That's prime, Jamie, man.

Yep.

Yeah. Yep.

And the fact that he. He's got that much range that he can do this nerdy dude who's terrified, doesn't know what the. Is going on. He's just driving a car, and all sudden he has his hitman with him. Then he gets wrapped up in this whole thing.

Yeah. But as a fan, I'm. I want to see him do something else like that.

Right, right.

You know what I mean? Like, something like that requires what he can do. And there's a lot, you know, that's one of the things. There's a lot. Not a lot of Things out there sometimes, you know, so. So, you know, he's been doing things that I think show, you know, certain parts, but like to where he was going in Collateral and Ray, you know, it'd be nice to see that stuff again.

It's gotta be hard to find those roles, right? And when you find those roles, there's probably like six or seven a list dudes that they have like on a board somewhere and they're trying to figure out who's the guy for this.

Yeah.

But I believe gonna sell the most.

I believe you gotta create. Create your own stuff, man. Put it this way. Nobody was going to write that Black Dynamite.

Right, right, right.

You know what I mean?

Right.

I had to. You know, my thing is largely creating my own lane.

That was a fun movie, by the way.

Oh, thanks, man.

Really fun.

Thanks, man. So, yeah, man. So luckily, like, I. I enjoyed writing. I was always looked at everything from. I was always fascinated about this industry. And I sold a lot of things as a writer separate from the acting thing. And so, you know, just putting it all together is something that, like, I really enjoy doing.

How do you dedicate your time when you're writing? Do you just like, have an idea and say, okay, for the next X weeks, I'm gonna sit down and dedicate myself to this dude?

It's all different. A lot of times I will see the entire movie. Like when I did Black Dynamite, dude, I was in China getting going to set and I was in Shanghai and I was listening to James Brown Superbad. And I just started thinking about. I'm laughing, I'm in the back of this car and there's a driver wondering what the hell is going on with me. I'm seeing the whole goddamn movie, including a nunchuck fight scene with Richard Nixon. And I'm laughing and, you know, I started jotting stuff down because I was. It occurred to me, man, like, I just like, I remember one day I was thinking, like, wow, man, like growing up, we had Shaft and. Well, yeah, we had Superfly and the Mac and all that. Posters like that that we idolized. And I'm going, those were pimps. There was something wrong with my childhood. Why am I. I'm like, the Mac, like, that's a hero. And so it made me really think about it. And I'm like, I'm looking at these movies and like, Jim Brown and Fred Williamson are like killing like 60 people. And it's okay. Everybody's like this.

They have a club and then they got all these women and all this. And I'm like, this is actually hilarious. So I do a movie that depicted it exactly like it is. Thinking about this. One of the biggest movies of that time was Three the Hard Way. I don't know if you remember that movie. Jim Brown, Fred Williamson and Jim Kelly.

Oh, yeah, forgot about Jim Kelly.

Read the Hard Way. What was it about? It had the three predominant blaxploitation stars, right? And the movie was about an evil Dr. Feather who had these leaders of Liquid that he was going to put in the water systems of la, Chicago and New York that were going to kill all the black people. It's not a comedy.

That's the movie.

It's not a comedy. It was going to give sickle cell anemia to all the black people. Now, the conspiratorial thing, I've been a black man for a long time and it is really funny because. Because in the community, conspiracy is a big thing, right? So that whole conspiratorial thing. Oh, they trying to get you that kind of a thing. It really. Its engine was that. That paranoia that this leader of Liquid was going to kill black people.

Well, there was so much evidence that those conspiracies were real. Like the Tuskegee.

Of course, that's something that's like. It's. It's on its feet, though. But come on, a leader, something this big in the water systems that was going to kill all the black people. And that's not a comedy. That was a serious movie. But when you look at it, that's hilarious. It's absolutely hilarious to think that you can do a movie about that. So to do a movie. I thought that really, really talked about that time period where it was kind of this overcorrection because, you know, you had. In the 60s, there were like, you know, butlers and maids and all that kind of stuff. But now you had these super overcorrected badasses that could just do anything, right? And I thought it was hilarious to look at it and treat it as if it were like back in that day, like a Lost movie. Actually, Tarantino was somebody I was talking to about that whole thing when I was putting Black Dynamite together, and he had certain ideas, but I kind of went my own direction with it. But yeah, man. So, yeah, things like that. Like, you know, I've gotten to a place where I'm putting these things together that really interests me, and I'm finding that there's an audience that likes it as well.

But yeah, man. So, you know, it just occurred to me that it Was bizarre.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, you know, so for.

That movie, that movie just came to you?

Yeah, but it came to me just like the whole movie came to me in a ride to set.

Is that normal for ideas, or do you sometimes sit down and say, like, I want to write an idea about blank?

Sometimes. Sometimes, like, I have a movie that the next movie I'm gonna do is a sequel to a movie I did call as Good As Dead. Right. And it became Samuel Goldwyn's, one of their most successful movies. I wrote the idea, it was based off my brother. My brother, he went from Florida into Mexico and started a family. He just, like, fell in love with Mexico and kind of base my character on him. And he's basically a cop that's like, hiding out in Mexico and, you know, trying to avoid this, you know, syndicate or whatever that's trying to kill him. But that movie just came to me. I wrote it. We were in production like two months later, and we actually got the movie done within a year. And it was.

How did you get it made so quick?

Yeah, I mean, they, they responded to the script and it was kind of like a grown up Karate Kid in a way. So my character, you don't know, what was this black dude doing working construction in Mexico? And he's got, you know, he's got his wing chun dummy, he's training in his backyard. And it's a kid who's trying to avoid the gangs that he befriends, that he's. He teaches this unique kind of martial art. And so. So one thing leads to another. This kid gets good at it and they trace the style back to my character, and then, you know, then the bad guys are trying to kill me and I have to fight back. So what we're doing, we're about to do a sequel. I start that in a couple of weeks, actually. So I wrote that one. But yeah, so I feel like, I don't know, I'm still a fan of movies. I don't. I wouldn't write something I wouldn't want to see. And I've seen a lot. You know, I think I understand this industry. I understand there's a lot of stories that I think could be told with fresh ways and with the action and martial arts that could be new and exciting.

Like, I'm getting to a place where I'm trying to make fight scenes look very real, including choreographing mistakes. You know what I mean? I think people have become so much more sophisticated watching UFC fights and all that type of stuff. I think you gotta raise the bar to make something look real. And there's a lot of the stuff that's in the, you know, the superhero movies and whatever, that you just kind of go, okay, you're seeing choreography for choreography's sake. Right. And you're not invested because you don't feel like you're looking at a real fight. And so I like to try to, you know, use my platform to step that up a bit.

Yeah, that's hard as a. Especially as a person who was a martial artist to watch fight scenes and go, you have to kind of suspend disbelief and go, all right.

Well, yeah, kind of like, you know, it's weird, but, you know, kind of full circle. It's kind of going back to the way Bruce Lee did stuff, and he's a little faster than the other person. He has a little bit more technique. And if you imagine. Like, even if I imagine you in a real fight, your technique's not going nowhere, and other people are not gonna have that same technique. You go beat. You know, you beat somebody to the punch. You do things that would logically give you the edge. That's what you shoot. You know what I mean? Right. Yeah. So it's not like you gotta do a lot of camera tricks if you're moving faster and stronger than another person. Well, there it is. There it is. So luckily, you know, I mean, I can put things on screen that kind of resemble what things might look like, you know, and you get the benefit of the doubt because, you know, you're in a heroic position.

It's just very hard to do that. It's very hard to make it look real. There's a real art to that.

Yeah, yeah. But like with the movie that you turned down, Blood and Bone, I turned.

Down John Wick 4, too, though. I turned down a lot of movies.

You do. You did. You did the right thing. Because what you're doing, you could not, you know, this could not be more, you know, up your alley doing the things that you're doing. But, like, John Wick was hard.

I'm a giant John Wick fan, especially John Wick one.

And eventually there's going to be a John Wick seven. So you decide to do.

They Got kind of crazy. They're over the top now. But even John Wick one was totally unrealistic.

Oh, man.

Totally unrealistic, but so fun. I fucking love those movies.

Yeah, well, I got something that's kind of in that vein that I just finished. There's a lot of body count But a lot. A lot of cqb. I've been. I've been studying that for a while. A lot of, like, cqb. Oh, close quarter combat. Of course. Close quarter battle. But, you know, I've been doing, like, you know, a lot of, like, tactical training and kind of getting myself. I may compete at some point.

Oh, really?

Yeah, yeah, I've gotten pretty into it.

Where do you train at?

Well, a lot of places. I trained a guy named Tyler Gray. He's Delta Force. A lot of friends who are, like, you know, Special Force guys.

You ever go to Terran Tactical?

Oh, of course. Yeah. Yeah, I go to Terran quite a bit.

That guy's the best.

Oh, yeah, he's. Man, he's amazing.

You want to talk about someone who's very technical?

Oh, my God. It's just. He shoots from the hip, like, better than anybody who's using a laser, you know?

No, he's preposterous. It's always iron sights.

Yeah.

You know, he doesn't. I mean, he uses red dots, but, you know, he prefers iron sights. He's like, they never fail. They never go wrong.

Yeah.

And he's so crazy accurate. It's wild to watch.

And when you think about, like, how long, how fast could you just take out everybody in this damn room? It's kind of.

It's kind of spooky.

Yeah, it is spooky.

Yeah. Well, it's also. He's so calm about it, too. Yeah, it's weird. Like, almost like autistic. Like, weird brain. Manish.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, what the. When you watch him do it, like, many times I've gone to his range and trained. And then, you know, people will goad him into it, like, do. Do a run. Like, do this. And he's like, okay, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do that, and then I'm gonna pull this out right here.

It's crazy.

You're like, what the fuck did I just watch?

That's crazy. And then you see how many times he's won the championship.

Oh, yeah. Ridiculous.

And, like, there's only a few people that won consecutive years, and he's got, like seven years in a row and just chunks. I'm like, this is crazy.

Yeah, he's a very unique talent.

Yeah, yeah.

Very unique talent.

Yeah. A buddy of mine, like, Tyler Gray, he just. He's been Delta. He's been. He's been decorating. He's. Oh, my God. His place in Vegas he creates guns, and he's got, like, more in his arsenal than every gun store you can imagine. But, like, he's, like, he's something else. Like, he. One of the most mellow people you ever want to meet in your life. Life. And. But he's. He's been the guy. Been the consultant and director on. On Navy SEALS for years, and, you know, but I got a lot of friends doing that, so. My. My brother, he just. He just retired from Secret Service and, you know. You know Danny. Danny Hester. No, he was a former Mr. Mr. Olympia classic for some. But he's gotten into. I mean, I shoot with these guys all the time and actually Flex Wheeler, you know, a lot of the guys are, you know, into the gun stuff, you know, so we. We go set up stuff and, you.

Know, well, once you start training, you realize like, how difficult it is and how long the learning curve is because you think, oh, you point, you pull the trigger. What's the big deal? Then you get into it, and then you see someone like Taryn or someone who's competing, and you go, oh, this is just like everything else. Just like karate, like jiu jitsu. Like, there's levels. Oh, yeah, levels and levels and levels.

Yeah.

And you see people competing and you go, oh, wow.

Yeah.

Yeah, I'd like to do that someday.

Yeah. Yeah. You. You're in a great place for it.

Yes. Yeah. Texas is a great place for it.

Oh, yeah.

There's a staccato range that we go to sometimes. It's awesome. They have all these different setups out there. They have this old west town with all these different, like, targets set up, and you run from doorway to doorway way. It's pretty badass.

Yeah. Jon Jones, I see, is doing quite.

A bit of that scary human being.

Yeah.

And if you get past him, he's got his dog. Dutch.

Yeah.

Which is. You know, he brings a Belgian mall everywhere he goes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know. My good friend Josh Barnett. He's. He's at Terence a lot, too.

Yeah. He's another scary human being.

Yeah. Yeah.

And a very analytical, intelligent.

One of the most. He is like, Jeopardy. Smart. It's, like, ridiculous. You can't. There's not many things that he doesn't know. He's amazing. I watch you guys. You guys on this show. I was very flattered. He mentioned. Out of nowhere, he started talking about how he was inspired by myself and my wife and that, you know, it actually got me real choked up. Yeah. I was like, what, man?

Josh is a great guy.

Yeah. Incidentally, my wife is somebody that I don't know. You met her a long time ago. You last saw her sliding down the Lugsore. Oh, wow.

That's crazy.

Yep.

That's crazy. On Fear Factor.

On Fear Factor.

Wow.

Yeah. She was sliding down the Lugsore when you last saw her.

That's crazy.

She slid right into my arms.

That's awesome.

Yeah. We've done our sixth movie together. Together.

Oh, wow.

So we've been. You know, we got two. Two. Our teenagers are. We got one less. Well, we got two left in the house going to college now, so, you know, we're about to be. Yeah, man. So, yeah, it's wild how these things kind of connect.

It is wild.

Yeah.

It is wild. Yeah. Josh is one of the. He's like, one of the best example to me of when people think of a martial artist or think of a cage fighter, former UFC heavyweight champion, and you think of a guy like. Oh, probably some brute, some dude. Have a conversation with him.

Yes.

And you realize the depth of his intellect and the depth of his knowledge, like, how much he knows about Nietzsche. He can quote Nietzsche.

Oh, my God.

He's so well read. He makes his own whiskey.

Yeah.

You know, like, he's a very interesting guy, man.

What a Renaissance guy.

Exactly. A real Renaissance guy.

Yeah. We usually. We have the same birthday, so sometimes we throw parties together. Yeah. When he's in town, he's always in Japan and just all over the place, man. He's like. He's an amazing human being.

He really is.

Yeah. Yeah.

And again, one of the best examples, like, when people have a stereotype of what they think a cage fighter is. And Josh was the youngest ever UFC heavyweight champion.

Yeah. Yeah. And, man, that's probably, like, I've trained more with him than. And there's so many people, like, you know, and it's just. It's just what a great friendship and what a. What a inspirational thinking person, you know, and, you know, so. Yeah. And, you know, he did never back down three with me. We shot that in Thailand. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What's it like training in Thailand? That's gotta be fun.

Oh, man. Kind of hot.

Yeah. But the motherland of Muay Thai. Yeah.

Yeah. Again, like, with every style, there's. It's. It's strengths and its weaknesses. You know, a lot of. A lot of them. You know, a lot of things around. You know, they go around and not street.

Right.

Straight, you know, of course, the quickest distance between two points is a straight line. So it's not a whole lot of. Well, they could do with a lot more boxing technique and, and some of those things. But, man, talk about toughness, that kind of a thing. But it's kind of a tragic, like how they, they beat the shit out of themselves. By the time they're in their 30s, man, they're like, yeah, they're busted up.

Well, they start fighting when they're very, very young. But it's also led to them training so intelligently. You know, one of the things about Thai training, they don't spar like a lot of Americans do, where they beat the. Out of each other. They play spar.

Yeah.

And that play sparring allows them to not get beat up by the time they get into the ring on Saturday because a lot of them are fighting every week. So they do touch sparring, you know, and a lot of people say, oh, you can't get good touch barring. Well, she certainly can.

Oh, absolutely.

Especially when you're fighting every weekend. Yeah, that's probably the best way to do it because you, you're, you're, you know, just working on timing, pattern recognition and just getting your, just your reps in.

Yeah. Just like with jiu jitsu, of course, when you don't muscle things, when the technique, you let the technique do its thing, that's so much better. Right? Yeah. And you, you, you maintain so much better as well. Right.

And I think one of the best examples of that is like, Sanchai, because Sanchai is in his 40s and he's still fucking people up. It's crazy watching that guy fight. But, but you look at him, a very unassuming guy, you know that he's not ripped. You know, he's an older guy, but he's just. His timing and his smoothness and the way he moves, it's very playful. He's just fucking people up.

Yeah. Yeah, man. It makes me. I miss Thailand. I actually did my. We did our wedding ceremony in Thailand. Oh, wow. Yeah. And you know who was, who officiated part of it was Tony Jackson.

Oh, really?

Tony Ja did the Buddhist part of our wedding. He did the water blessing and he also sang at the wedding. Yeah, yeah. He's like, yes, yes.

Yeah.

One of. One of the greatest martial artists ever.

What a great movie that was.

Yeah, yeah.

For martial arts technique. That was, that was like one of the first times, like, real true Muay Thai was exhibited in a film. Like, absolutely super high level.

Yeah, yeah. Tony just. My God, like, he would do these incredible feats in front of you, just Unbelievable. He could do a spin, do a somersault, hit you in the shoulder, and just tap you like that with your foot. With his foot, just. He had that much control. It's unbelievable. Yeah, he was sick recently, but he's overcoming. I think it was. I think it was a C word, man. Ooh. Yeah. You know, I haven't talked to him in a minute, but I just found out about it, like, about. I don't know, a couple weeks ago. Yeah, he was. I knew he got thinner, but I'm hoping that he's. He's better now.

Yeah, he's a legend.

Yeah, he's something else.

It's so fascinating to me how different parts of the world develop a different style of martial arts. In Thailand, in particular, because of the fact that there was so much gambling and there were so many fights that they developed this very heavy leg kick, clench, elbow, knee style.

Yeah.

Was just very different than a lot of the other styles, you know, and for a long time was really dominating in kickboxing. But then you're starting to see other styles, like, particularly a lot of Kyokushin guys now, specifically out of Japan. Have you ever seen this kid, Yukioza?

Is he Kyokushin?

Yeah, Kyokushin guy out of Japan who's dominating people. He fights very different, man. He's up a lot of Thai guys with calf kicks.

Okay.

Oh, my God. Dude.

No, no. I hadn't heard of. Heard. I just officiated a kyokushin tournament yesterday. What was Sunday? Was that two days ago? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm, you know, I'm still connected in the kyokan. I mean, been doing that, you know.

Yeah.

Since I was a kid.

But you did the whole thing, like, where you have to fight like, 100 guys in a day.

You did all that? I've done a 30, man.

I haven't done 100 exaggerating, but it's like a lot of people.

Yeah, yeah. Which is the toughest? Honestly, it's a. I love it. It was the toughest thing I'd ever. I ever had to really face. Because you come to a point where you want to give up and you have to just, you know, kind of walk the burning sands.

What is it like walking the next day?

Man, I had. I mean, I remember the first time I did a Tin man and I had several knees on my legs. Put it that way. Way so. Because they. They destroy your legs so bad. Yeah, right. I did a 20, man one other time and made the mistake of having a. I had, like a energy Drink beforehand. Which is stupid, because now my heart is racing higher than normal. And so it made it even harder. But somewhere around, like, inevitably, you get to a place where I remember the 12th guy. I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? Why are you here? You know? But you have to dig deep, and.

You got 18 more to go.

Yeah. Yeah. So I'm like, man, but honestly, that's.

Such a hard style.

Yeah, but, man, it's something about getting, you know, because you're. You're gonna be faced with yourself. You're gonna be. You want to quit, and you have to just dig down and get through it. And there's nothing like it when you accomplish it, because you know where you can go. You know that most of the time, you tell yourself you're done, you're not. What a valuable lesson it is to know that about yourself.

Yeah.

And you can't. There's no substitute for that. And it's just something that you just benefit. I remember the last time I did did this, we had to train out in Banff, Canada, because usually these things are in Japan. And people from all over the Style, they come and they train you, like, training eight hours a day. You got these little lunch breaks. And I didn't think it through. I think the last one was, like, about five, six years ago. I wanted to challenge myself. I wanted to do this. But I'm by myself, and most people come with family members and all that kind of stuff.

So you're by yourself, You're a movie star.

Yeah. And I have the target on my back, but it's like, of course. Yep. So. And it's like, we'd have a training thing, and then you got a certain amount of time to go eat. But then people want to take pictures with me, and I'm the last guy to get into the lunch thing. And then it's like, oh, shit, I got 10 minutes to eat, and then I got to get back in the next training session.

And you have a full stomach.

Yeah. And then you got like. I mean, it kind of sucked. But I taught myself something. I said, you know, you could be three hours in. I tell myself, I just got here. I just got here, and I dig deeper and whatever. And then the last few days, you're just fighting down to the last person. And, you know, there's people that's like, you know, they got their eye on you. Because, like, you know, I've got the bullseye on me. But the great thing is, dude, like, I say, I learned a lot. I'm doing footwork with Frankie for years. I'm boxing technique. I've got Benny Urquitas. Bill Wallace was my instructor. I've got so many things in my arsenal and to test myself, it's such a great benefit to, you know. And it was weird because I was thinking, like, am I insane? Because I had a movie that I was going to be starting and like a week later I could have just been messed up. I could have had a broken leg or whatever. A lot of times you leave with a souvenir. They call it, like, you know, when you train in Japan, a lot of the Japanese want to give you a souvenir.

That means a broken bone. But I had to try to, you know, overcome that. So in life, it's. Especially in this kind of coddled life I'm living, I don't get a chance to test myself that much. Right, right. And, you know. Yeah. I had to, you know, listen to my own complaints and shut the fuck up and get through it. Yeah. Oh, it's not fair because everybody's taking pictures and you're doing this and I'm by myself. No, no, that's not. The point is get through it. You know, And I'm so glad to do that. And I always, like. That's why I like to train with champions and stuff, because, you know, that's. You want to get through things. It should be. You should be tested. I mean, if I had a religion, a large part of it, if I was the head of my own religious cult, would be that men go through something. There's a rites of passage.

Yes.

You got to know how to protect yourself and your family and your loved ones. That, to me is. Is paramount.

You also have to know what's inside of you. Like, the only way to find out is to test it.

Exactly.

Because otherwise you get these dudes that have their chest pumped out and they're talking loud. Why are they doing that? Because they want to scare people off.

Right.

Because they don't know what they're capable of. They're terrified. Yeah.

And you can't hide from yourself. Right. And that's the thing. I'm not going to bullshit myself. I'd like to. I want to know, you know, and it's great. There's no substitute for going through that. And that's the thing that I. Why I love fighters so much, you know, you're basically naked to the world.

Right.

You have to dig down, you have to overcome things. That's why I love them so much, because they. They're Our gladiators, we live vicariously through them. And that's why I'm a little dogged about actors receiving those accolades when they haven't done it. You know what I mean? Myself included. I don't care if somebody says, oh, he's not a fighter, he's an actor, Fine, you should think that way. But personally, it's something deeper for myself. And one person I think I identify with that is you. Because I've seen you. You. I've seen you in the gyms back when it wasn't popular. And we're doing it for reasons that are not. Had nothing to do with glory or ego or anything like that. It's just for self improvement. That's what it's about. It's about overcoming obstacles. And your biggest obstacle in the world is yourself.

Yeah. My instructor, when I was very young, told me that martial arts are a vehicle for developing your human potential.

Exactly.

It's so hard.

Yeah.

And people need something hard.

Yeah. And what about Khabib's? What is. What did Khabib say? Like what he says about discipline?

Oh, that.

That rant, man, I had to record. Oh, that.

You know, I don't know if that rant is real. Somebody told me that rant is AI.

What?

Yeah. Is it AI? Damn it.

What?

Well, who cares?

Well, yeah, it could be Voice.

And I bet Khabib would agree with every word it said.

Yes. Yes. You know, find that rant.

Because let's pretend that it's not AI. Or it may be one of AI's greatest contributions to martial arts.

Absolutely.

Because becoming addicted to discipline.

Yeah. Every man addicted to something.

Yeah. Such a great rant. Here it is. Give me this, give me this. It's such a great rant. Start from the beginning too. Every man addicted to something. Some smoke, some drink, some chase girls, some waste time. But real man, he addicted to discipline. To early wakes, to pray, to training, to silence. Discipline. No need motivation. Discipline. Move without feeling. Discipline. Say I go anyway. Even when tired, even when lonely. Discipline is best. Addiction. We want strong life. Discipline builders. You want peace, discipline protected. You want respect?

Discipline.

Then earn it. No shortcut. Only work. Be men with control, not men with excuse. No crime, no blame. You want better life. Start with better habits. Discipline every day. Until discipline become you. Every.

Yeah, yeah. I. I don't give a damn if there's AI or whatever. But like, well, kudos to the AI person that put that together.

Yeah.

I.

That's how he lives. Yeah. So even if it's AI, he would go this Is accurate?

Yes.

Well, I'll tell you what, man. That part of the world, Dagestan you want to talk about, hard part of the world that is developing some of the baddest, even in Muay Thai. There's this cat coming out of Muay Thai at a Dagestan right now. Azadullah Iman ghazaliev, who's like 22 years old, and he is fucking everybody up. A Dagestani Muay Thai fighter who has his own style. He's this tall, lanky dude who's one of the most terrifying strikers alive right now. A lot of people think he's the best striker. Like, oh, man, I think he's 22. 22 or 23 years old. And he's just. Everybody up. He fights for one fc. Give me a highlight reel of this cat. This is just from a fight, I guess. Highlight reel didn't pop up right away, so I just went with the first fight. That's it. Best technical striker in the world. That's it. Click on that. Just give me some of this. Just start it from the beginning. This dude, that tall dude with the beard, Azadullah Iman Gazalia. Watch this. What a style he has. I mean, it's just this long, tall, lanky dude. Perfect timing and measurement, and he just starts piecing dudes up.

I think this is like his full fight. Yeah, well, I don't think so. If you scoot ahead. I think he. This guy up pretty quick. I've seen this fight. This guy, he catches with one shot. But some dudes not so level.

Oh, man.

Yeah, that was one shot, but it keeps going. And then give me the next fight, he just starts lighting guys on fire, including ties. And they. They don't know what the is going on because he fights different than them. I mean, he's a Muay Thai fighter.

He's got that straight, you know that he's exploiting the fact that they. They got so much round technique.

Exactly. A lot of front kicks up the middle and especially to the face. But also his spinning attacks. He's got wicked spinning attacks, man. And also comes off angle a lot. His head's never on the center line. Super technical. But just lighting dudes on fire. And just a. Just an attacker always attacking and has the benefit of that range, that long range.

Yeah. I mean, nice.

Dude is incredible. Incredible. And again, 22 years old, like, look at that. So he's combining like Taekwondo techniques, karate techniques, and precision Muay Thai. I mean, the problem with this, this, this. Not this Style, but this form is that a lot of people aren't seeing it. One FC is doing a really good job of highlighting a lot of, like elite Muay Thai fighters. You know, they have Taiwan Chai over there and Sita Chai and all these like high level guys. But in America, this, for whatever reason, has not caught on. And the only way this guy's going to get the kind of attention that I think he deserves is if he gets into mma.

Boom.

Yeah. Ax kick. His spinning back fist.

Boom. His, his straight rights are no joke.

He's a laser beam.

Yeah.

He's so focused. He's so good, man. So good.

Yeah, yeah.

So the Dagestanis are now entering into Muay Thai, which is a terrible sight for all these Muay Thai guys.

Yeah, yeah, man. Those are hard, tough ass people, man.

Hard people start at a very young age. I mean, a very young age. Like. And also Dagestanis now, because of Khabib and Islam, they all know that this is the pathway to greatness.

Yes. Yeah.

And so there's heroes and there could be an. There's all these guys that have been world champions out of Dagestan now. So there's like, you're seeing all these guys come out of there. And some of these young guys that are coming up are so good. Yeah, they're so good. But this is fascinating to me that you take a guy who's adapted this Thai style but then morphed it into something that's different. And again, like you were saying, a lot of straight techniques.

Oh, yeah.

Especially when you're a tall guy like that for the weight class. Because I think he fights at 145. And when you're that tall at 145 and you've got those straight shots down the middle.

Yeah. Like, his right is just like, you can't really see it. Laser beam going, you know, right directly at him.

But it's also the hooks too. His hooks are coming around the guard.

Right, right.

Everything is precise and his accuracy is spectacular. Yeah, yeah. I'm, I'm a student, obviously. I, I, I, I watch every fight I can. I watch, I watch kickboxing, I watch Muay Thai, I watch jiu jitsu matches, I watch it all. But I, I'm always fascinated by these cats that stand out. And this guy just stands out.

Yeah, yeah. It's great when somebody knows how to use their length like that. Yeah, yeah.

Well, Yukioza, the Kyokushin guy, that I was telling you totally different. This guy's doing is shelling up and getting in tight on guys and kicking the, out of their inner thigh, outer calf lower, like he's, he's chopping at their legs. So even Thai guys don't know what to do because they're not used to guys kicking their calves. Like this guy, right? So he's inside going shin to shiny. And you know as well as anybody, Kyokushin guys have some of the most conditioned shins in the world. They're always battering shin to shin and this dude is just getting in. And you see in the second round, a lot of these Thai guys like, oh, I can't walk. Yeah, I can't move right. My calves don't work anymore. So the calf kick, which is really kind of revolutionized mma, it's changed mma, because one, two hard calf kicks, you're compromised. You're not moving right anymore and you're not pivoting off that foot when you're punching, punching. So your punching power is diminished. This Yukiosa guy is like putting it on Thai guys with it.

That's something I mean, especially for, for a Kyokushin guy to. I mean the, the knock with Kyokushin, I've been doing it ever since I was a kid, is just that. No, not developing facial, exactly, facial, you know, blocks.

Well, this guy's incorporated Russian style boxing. Oh, he's got Russian style boxing with Kyokushin karate techniques.

Well, yeah, that, with that Russian style boxing that they're, they really kind of mastered the non telegraph. Kind of. Yeah, because it looks like they're not going fast.

Yukio's a highlight reel. He's. There's a bunch of fights with him and Thai guys and you know, the first round, Thai guys are doing their thing and it looks, you know, like a normal fight, but the Yukios just starts chopping at those cats inside. And he's like multiple kicks to the calf from in tight and close.

Yeah, that's punishing.

And you see guys like playing at like, go ahead, kick me, kick me. And then after a while, like, don't kick me anymore. They try to get macho with them, pretending it's not working.

But yeah, like what would it take to develop?

Like this is Yukiosa.

Like, oh, your thighs.

You see how he's like he chop, he's chopping when he's getting tight.

Look at this.

Always look at how much he's utilizing all the karate techniques. But also in tight just destroys guys legs, but also spinning back kicks, all that other shit. But look at his boxing is excellent too. Ooh, a Lot of Muay Thai stuff, dumping people. But look at that. He's constantly kicking the inside of the leg. When they're committing to kicks, he's taking their legs out. This dude, one of my favorite guys to watch right now, like, look, that's a Thai guy, man. He's just destroying their legs, man. An excellent movement.

Yeah.

And he comes out of a very high level gym in Japan that's produced a lot of really Masasaki Nori. Another guy who's like, that is a very similar guy who beat Tawanchai recently. Like, these guys are just destroying people's legs. So they're utilizing a lot of the question mark kicks, a lot of the stuff that, that evolved in Kyokushi, but putting it into kickboxing also with the toughness that is in, you know, a lot of the Kyokushin fighters.

Yeah, I see, I see him slip into a, like a superman. Yeah, everybody's gonna be susceptible for that. If you got a kick, a leg kick that, that's, that's that legitimate. Yeah, they're gonna bite on that. It's gonna be open for him.

And then he uses a superman punch. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And another very young guy. So he's these people that are exploiting like these holes and these styles because some of these Thai guys are so hard to beat. They have, by the time they, they're competing and they're 25 years old, they might have 150 fights. So much experience. But this cat's figuring them out, man. It's really interesting to watch, you know?

Yeah, I would love to see. I wish there was like some kind of governing body that would get all the, like, some like, superstars, whatever, get this guy versus this guy from.

Well, one is doing that a lot, but, you know, one unfortunately is not that popular in America. What I love about one is they'll have grappling competitions, they'll have kickboxing, they'll have Muay Thai, and then they'll have mma. They'll have them all combined on one card.

One is the one with that Michael Chevello is on. Right.

Well, he was on that. Michael Chevelle is not with one anymore. Michael Chevelle is one of the best commentators.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's excellent.

Excellent.

Great guy too.

I'll be seeing, I'll probably be seeing him in another, like three weeks.

I'm gonna go in Australia.

Yeah, going to Australia.

Nice.

My wife and I, we're going. Well, I, we did a tour. I, I do like seminars over there and we you know, meet and greets and stuff like that. We haven't done that in a while, but yeah, got some really good. Some good fighters out there.

Oh, yeah.

John Wayne Parr. Yeah.

You know, some great fighters have come out of Australia.

Yeah. So, yeah. To have some fun out there.

That's awesome.

Yeah. They're in New Zealand. Oh, yeah.

Another. Another hot bed.

Oh, yeah.

Another hot bed for fighters. Well, just warrior cultures, you know.

Absolutely.

Yeah. Warrior history, I don't think.

I've never met an Australian that I didn't like.

I know. They're the nicest people. Yeah, yeah. They're the coolest people. They're friendly, easygoing.

Yeah. You have rights of passage still, you know, places like that, you know, you. I mean, that's one thing that is sad about United States. Like, we're not making men anymore.

Not a lot of them.

No, no.

When they are, they stand out.

Yeah. You know, that's why it's like, a lot of times in these movies, if you have an alpha male, a lot of times that American alpha male is being played by an Australian or somebody from Chris Hemsworth. Yeah. It's like, it's very rarely an American we got, so it's like such a trip, man.

Well, masculinity is demonized here for some strange reason. Over the last couple of decades, bro.

I saw the beginning of a lot of it because, you know, like I said, I was a schoolteacher and I was right on the forefront saying, like, everybody gets a trophy. You know, these kids, you know, they're. You know, it's about their self esteem and you gotta protect. I'm like, come on. And, you know, taking away competition. Yeah, that just. I saw the beginning of that. And this is so, so bad. Then these kids don't know how to deal with loss or. Right. Anything. And then they end up shooting a classroom. Right. You know, it's. Yeah.

Dealing with loss is one of the most important lessons you could ever learn. If you want to get better, lose.

Yeah.

Losing is the best medicine because you lose. I don't ever want to feel that again. And then you start thinking about all the things that you cut corners on, on all the things that you didn't do. What can I do differently to make sure that never happens again, that I never feel that feeling? Or you quit. Those are the two options. Either you get way better or you quit. But winning, sometimes you don't learn. You know, you go, well, I'm doing the right thing. I'm winning. I'm getting better. I'm Developing confidence. That's good. But man, sometimes a loss is the best medicine.

Yeah, man. I realized something when I was, you know, I was born with some gifts, okay? I did one thing that got me into college is decathlon. As a fluke, I jumped into a race against one of the fastest guys on the track team and beat him, right? And that was just a fluke. And the coach saw that, the track coach saw that and was like, oh my God, you're fucking running for the school. I was like, oh, okay. I, I was just like, I didn't have anybody, any kind of adult that took a liking to me like that. And next thing you know, I'm on the track team and I started, I mean, I was really good. And then I wound up going to college because of that. And incidentally, that's the stuff that really kind of taught me to kind of evolve my martial arts. Because nowhere is there a benefit of like, cutting off fractions of seconds in movement, like track, like when I'm doing the shot put. Well, a lot of times I was competing against people that were ginormous and all they had to do is stick their arm out and their arc was going to be better than mine.

Well, I had to generate enough power to, to go at a 45 degree angle and in inertia and all that to get past them. And with running, of course, if you shoot the gun off, all your motion has to go forward. If you go backward, you're going to be a step behind everybody. So as far as efficiency of motion, all the things I had to do with track, I started applying and finding and that's what kind of gave me cheat codes into things to where being super efficient really helped. Right. And so one thing would, like, kind of help the other. But like, yeah, a lot of my whole track thing was a great benefit. But I did learn that I was kind of, in a way, like, like the Bo Jacksons or the Herschel Walkers. I was gifted. And so when I would fight, I was, you know, I was a big guy that was fast and it didn't, you know, that was kind of rare. So fighting was easy to me. But I learned that when I was, as the celebrated fighter, that was, was less of a good martial artist because then I kind of would kind of flake off other things.

Like I wasn't, I didn't try as hard as other people. And that's another thing. I don't know if Khabib really said, but it was a thing that he said about those gifted people a lot of people who are gifted were not the best fighters.

Yeah, that is a quote from him.

Exactly. And I took that, you know, that same thing, because I realized, dude, you're doing it wrong. You're. I mean, my philosophy was like, I feel I adapted the philosophy of, okay, say this kid Sean is 140 pounds, and there's me, and it takes me a thousand kicks to become fatigued. And it takes him 100 kicks to become fatigued. And he pushes to 120. And I pushed a 1001. Who's the better martial artist? He is. Because he's pushed into his comfort zone. He's pushing himself further. What if he one day gets to a thousand? For him to go from 100 to 1,000, that's going to be a quality 900 that I don't have, me being the gifted one. Right, right. I'm looking at it using the comparative method, saying, well, you know. You know, I mean, at the end of the year, I used to kick a basketball rim. You know, I was. I had that ability. But when I started thinking about, well, what I compare myself to other people, that was the wrong thing. So I said, no, I'm going to be like, Sean. I want to train to my ability, not in comparison to someone else.

And that really taught me something as far as, like, again, why I put myself through these things. And the benefit of it by really, like, what the martial arts really teaches is, you know, and the fact that, yeah, I had these gifts, but if I use those gifts as a crutch, I'm limited. What I can be. Right.

You're limiting your potential.

Exactly. And so oftentimes it's too easy for.

The gifted guys, and so they kind of slack off.

Right?

Yeah.

So, yeah, that's. That's. And I realized that's what I was doing.

They also are not as comfortable with struggle.

Absolutely.

And being comfortable with struggle is a very important part of growth.

Yeah, yeah. And, yeah, it's a mixed message because we start to admire the freak. Sometimes as men, we celebrate the pugilists a lot. And that's kind of a thing where. Came full circle to where, okay, yeah, I'm able to do these things, but is that really me? Is that the limit of what I can be by having someone else go, oh, yeah, you can do this or that. That. That's kind of a. That's not really the. The. The. The crux of it. Right. You know what I mean? And it's in. And it's really about like, yeah, there's going to be People that's going to praise what you can do physically, but is that. But I realized there was a point where that was kind of where I could be mentally and what I can really, really become.

You also have a responsibility to those gifts.

Yeah, Right.

Because if you are gifted athletically, you have a responsibility of achieving the full potential. Because you've been given this thing by genetics, by life, by God, this thing where you are faster, you move quicker, you have more explosive power. But are you going to harness that gift and allow it to reach its full potential?

Right.

When you do that, then you get a mic tie. Tyson. When you do that, then you get a Michael Jordan. You do that, then you get an elite of the elite. You get what David Goggins always like to call uncommon amongst uncommon men.

Right, right.

And that's. That's the real hard thing to do because so many of these, like, really gifted guys in the gym, they always kind of peter off and disappear. And. And when they're in a fight where they fight another gifted guy that maybe trained a little harder than them, maybe he's got a little bit more experience, they realize, I'm in. I want to struggle like that.

Right.

I don't like that. I don't like that feeling. I like beating up guys in the gym that are below me.

Yeah. And then you. You gotta deal with that person in the mirror.

Yeah.

And that's not hard for guys when.

They'Re the hammer their whole life, and then one day they're the nail.

Yeah.

And you see guys that are, like, really elite, that are dominating, and then one day they get fucked up, and then you never see them again, oftentimes. But then you'll see the guy who, like, gets fucked up a bunch of times and keep showing up, keeps showing up and keeps learning, and then you realize, like, oh, this guy is now elite.

Yeah. And those are the true heroes.

Right.

You know? You know, there's people I don't want. You know, sometimes you get. Get in trouble pointing out people like, Like. I don't want to say somebody like Izzy or whatever, but. But, like, you see the. The. The people who are used to having that ability over other people. And when it gets hard. Right, right. And then it's like, even. Sometimes there's a talk about even Tyson and as just people who are just spectators when you go, oh, man, this guy's so gifted. Now, some of the knock has been that when it became hard, you hadn't seen him dig down and overcome that thing, you know, Because a lot of times when it got hard, it was like he just, you know, kind of tapped out.

Yeah.

And so that's something that, you know, not to disparage him, but just as people are looking at life, we look at, you know, we look at those things and we can take a lot of meaning from that and apply that and say, oh, wow, is. I mean, that's on him to say, oh, was that the case or is it something that. I don't know with.

I think with Mike, it's a very special case because I think he had the elite coaching in the beginning with Customato and training. And then when Cus died, he was kind of left with all this amazing ability that he had developed when he was young, but not with the elite coaching. Like. So if Mike had left when Customato died, if he had then went to Emmanuel Stewart or if the, you know what I'm saying? If he had then went to an elite boxing coach and had someone analyze his style and someone he really respected.

Yes, absolutely.

That he could still maintain that same level of discipline when he was the 21 year old dominating the world.

Oh my God. But he has so much pressure on him. So much because, you know, I had to play him, so I had to study everything he did. And it's interesting because, oh my God, like I always viewed him as somebody who was always looking for a father figure.

Yes.

And I would study him and you know, with Customato, he would dress like Customato. He was a young black guy from Brooklyn with suspenders. Right. You know, in a cavi hat, like, you know, and then when Custom Auto was gone, he was around Kevin Rooney, and Kevin Rooney had this really fast way of talking and it seemed like he adapted that when he was with. No, no, shoot. Why am I blanking? The other manager, Jim Jacobs. Jim Jacobs, you know, Jim Jacobs was married and I think marriage became important to him at that point because he was really under the, the, you know, the umbrella of Jim Jacobs. And then when he was with Robin Givens, with, with Don King. Oh yeah, the N word. Is that every third word out of his mouth, very much like Don King, he goes to prison. He's got two father figures on him. Mao Tse Tung and, and he's got, you know, Arthur Ash on another shoulder. And I, and, and I would just notice that like, like even speech patterns would change, you know, And I looked at him as, wow, here's a guy that I felt like I identified with a great deal because coming from the same kind of, kind of place.

But yeah, it's Interesting, because I think a lot of people don't know how much struggle he had to deal with because people think that Kevin Rooney was kind of a savior in that situation when he wasn't. Kevin Rooney explained to me directly that he says, if you ever see Mike, please apologize for me. Because when, I mean, when Mike was married to Robin Givens, he didn't want to do this interview and then turn around, Kevin Rooney did the interview. And Kevin Rooney is like, I really messed up when I did that. And Kevin Rooney even told me that when at the Spinks fight alone, Kevin made like over a million dollars. He left that casino owing. Mike had to bail him out like so many times. And so people thought, oh, Kevin Rooney is in control. No, Mike was. I mean, he had so much pressure on him. And I think with Don King trying to hire Mike's cohorts to help out, if he gonna hang out with him anyway, to try to just do that. He had so much. This dude has so much pressure on him. It's unbelievable.

And Don King definitely took advantage of that.

Yeah, I believe so, you know, because I knew Don from. Because I was always in the fight camps with Frankie Laos. In fact, that's how I got to first meet Mike Tyke. When Mike was in prison, Frankie put Mike and I on the phone together. And so I would, you know, do my little kind of interviewing of Mike while he was, while he was in prison, because I was going to do. I was going to be playing him. So I wanted the whole story, right? And you know, and I went to Catskills on my own and knocked on that door and spent time with the people he grew up with in that house, you know, so I learned a lot. There's a lot that, you know, the public doesn't know. And I think he was concerned about, you know, coming out and, you know, it didn't. And so it was really interesting. I just got, I got. I was front and center on how much pressure this guy had to deal with. He had to kind of develop with the whole world looking over his shoulder. Yeah, yeah.

And he was 20.

Oh, yeah.

It's crazy. Youngest ever heavyweight champion in the world. He's went from being a 13 year old kid with no family to being adopted by this guy who's not just training him, but also hypnotizing him. And then he's got Jim Jacobs who exposes him to this library of all the greatest fighters of all time. He's watching video footage of it.

Bill Caton. Yeah.

It's an extraordinary story. Because it's like, unlike anyone else's. Like, the environment that he was exposed to and the way it produced this guy who was unlike any heavyweight before. I mean, in his prom. I always point to the Marvis Frazier fight. I always tell people, you want to see, like, the scariest that ever stepped into the ring, Mike Tyson versus Marvis Frazier. He was just undeniable. Just undeniable. But that pressure, the kind of pressure that no one could explain what that's like. There's no Internet back there then, so there's not as many famous people. So, like, who's gonna. Who's he gonna relate to? Who's gonna tell him what this is? Like, who's gonna. There's no one like him. You had Muhammad Ali, you had a few other guys that could maybe tell him what it was like, but for the most part, he's not. He's got no road map. And he's out there in this world of super stardom. We could do whatever the he wants. Everywhere he goes, people are screaming and cheering and. Yeah, and he's knocking everybody out in the first round.

Yeah, yeah. The pressure on that man. And then they have to fight Holyfield, right? A guy who was really kind of more like a big brother to him throughout his life, you know, his professional life, because, you know, Holyfield was his crew. He was a cruiserweight, you know, and Holyfield was the type of guy. How you doing, Mike? He checked on him and all that type of stuff. Then he has to fight this guy. You know, it's deep down, like, he's got to fight this guy who's got this reputation as a holy man, and he's all this type of stuff. And then I remember being at that fight, and I remember the press conference, and Mike was really manufacturing this hatred that I was like, that's not real. He's trying to dig down to really get this edge, to really hate Holyfield. And I was like, I thought that was a mistake, but. And I don't think psychologically he was in his. His game. Right.

Holyfield had an edge on him.

Yeah.

I think it was also the fact the Holy man thing was a big deal. Like, Holyfield had this incredible belief in God, and he really believed that, you know, God was looking out for him and he was going to go in there and.

Yeah. And then.

Couldn't be deterred.

Dude. The third round, I mean, look, I studied all this stuff on Mike Tyson third round of that first fight. Got chills, because think about it, he heard something that he never Heard his entire career. Everybody started chanting for the other guy, right? Holy. Field. Holy. And I swear to you, I saw you just the air come out of this guy and it was like, I've done all of this and they're chanting for this man and how gracious he was, how Tyson was at the end. I felt like, that's not a new thought. You kind of had that opinion of him going into this.

Well, holy fish hole. Had been through the wars, right? He had those wars with Riddick Bowe. He had the first war with Dwight Muhammad Kawi. Remember that fight at cruiserweight? Oh, my God. Go back and watch that fight.

That fight.

He had the war with Burt Cooper. He had wars.

And Holyfield was unflappable. He's like, yeah. He's like, I don't know why Mike Cheney is about me, but he's just like.

He's just never got angry.

Yeah, yeah. It's like, how you doing? It's hard to maintain like, like anger for that dude. Like, he's just like, okay.

Well, that's also terrifying too because you know, you can't get in there. You're trying to get in that head and it's like there's. You're not getting in there. Gods in there.

Yeah. And then I was like, if you look at it, you know, Mike Tyson was committing to every first blow.

Yep.

Holyfield is a counter fighter. Fake him, let him throw that counter and you got him.

Yeah.

And I was like, like, I think normally Mike knows this. Holyfield's center of gravity. So different. He's thin legged, big up top. Mike should be able to push him easily. Easily. I didn't see the things that I normally saw from Mike Tyson in that fight, which made me feel like this is a psychological component.

It's a psychological component, but it's also a training component because again, he wasn't with an elite trainer at that time.

Time.

It wasn't. It wasn't the same as him being trained by Costamano. It wasn't the same.

Yeah.

He didn't have the bobbing and weaving style that he used to have.

Do you remember he caught Holy Phil with the body shot in the uppercut.

Yeah.

And just like basically you almost said you saw finish him, but he just chilled. Do you remember that moment?

I don't specifically.

Yeah. There's a moment. There's a moment like that where he hurt. He heard him him and Holyfield looked like. It's like, yeah, but Holyfield would rebound.

I mean, the ribbon bow fights.

But you look At Tyson, you look at almost everything he's done. I thought I was about to see the beginning of the end, and I'm like, what the. What the. I remember being there going, why isn't he jumping on him? You know, hey, maybe I'm wrong or whatever, but I swear I saw that moment, and I remember going, what's going on? Why is he not jumping on him? And it's interesting. It's interesting.

Psychology plays a big role in how you feel about the opponent, and the opponent essentially holds up a mirror and allows you to look at yourself. And when he's comparing himself to this holy man, he probably didn't like it.

Joe. You know, I think that's the way I thought about it. And, of course, who am I to. But this is my opinion.

Those dudes, that kind of character like Holyfield had at the time, those are scary guys because, like, they can't be broken mentally.

Right, Right.

They're always good. And if. If you try to break them physically and he rebounds, like, oh, God, how. How much do I have left in the tank?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How many more of these shots can I take?

Yeah, like, no, it's different. If somebody, like, taunted you, now you can, you know, manufacture, like, you know, but when guys just, like. Like, okay, I'm just doing my thing, you kind of start going, oh, is it me? Because you don't. Then, you know, it's like, that's. When you have Fedor, somebody like that, it's just like. Like this. It's like you just. You drown yourself.

Stoic.

Because I can't derive nothing from him.

It's like, oh, he was the best at it. Yeah, yeah, Fedor was the best at it. Fedor would be the middle of the most chaotic war, and it looked like he was just sipping a cup of coffee.

Yeah, it's crazy.

There was no one like that guy. He's one of the most unique characters, and I think we were robbed of one of the greatest heavyweight matchups of all time, when they never figured out how to put Cain Velasquez versus Fador when they were both in their primes.

Man, Kane Velasquez is the scariest person I've ever seen, as far as I'm concerned. Like, if there was one guy that, like, because I. I pride myself, I get in the ring with anybody, that guy, man, he never got tired, man. He's had cardio.

He had cardio for a heavyweight. That was like a marathon runner. It didn't make any sense. He was a 240 pound guy who never got tired.

Yeah. Didn't.

Perfect technique.

Yeah. And I think the, the fights with Junior Dos Santos, I feel like they ruined each other.

Yes.

I feel like they ruined each other.

Well, I think certainly ruined Junior, especially the second fight. The first fight. Junior caught the first fight. Kane should have never took that fight. Kane had to take that fight because it was on fox. It was a big deal. It was the main event of the Fox, the first Fox card. And Kane blew his knee out. So if you look at that fight, Kane's wearing a knee brace. His knee was up like his meniscus was torn. He was all up. He couldn't, couldn't anchor on it. He couldn't really post on it. And then he couldn't get out of the way. And Junior caught him with a big right hand, cracked him, dropped him, stopped him. And then he comes back. Here it is. Here's Tyson versus Holyfield.

Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Yeah, but I'm. But Holyfield's still there. He's still there. If ever he has a chance, he has a chance right now.

Evander's hurt.

That right hand to the bumper.

You heard what he said, right?

But that took some win out of Evander right away. Biggest round for Mike yet. But the thing about Evander is Evander was always there. He had been through these kind of fights before, but I don't know where.

I am, but I was there. And something about seeing that, I felt like, oh, he's about to take him out.

But I think because Evander rebounded and Evander had a history of rebounding.

Oh, sure, absolutely.

Of war, absolutely.

It still doesn't change the fact that there was. I feel like there was an opportunity and he. That was a very un Tyson like situation.

I just don't think Tyson was Tyson anymore. By this time. I mean, I think he was a one punch guy by this time. He wasn't cutting those crazy angles. Slide off to the side and rip the body and go. He was standing right in front of guys. Yeah, he lost a lot of what made him special, which was it was the speed of combinations and the movement.

The movement is the movement primarily because he couldn't have, he couldn't have never gotten that far if he didn't do that.

Show that Marvis Frazier fight. Show that Marvis Frazier fight. Tyson vs. Marvis Frazer is my favorite Tyson performance because Marvis Frazier looked like he was going to a funeral at the beginning of the fight. Look at him. I mean, you feel the energy from his Face.

And he didn't play the covenant right after this with the grizzly bear. Just mauling the hell out. It's the same thing.

Here it is. He's just all over Marvis, like from the beginning. This was on abc, Wide World of Sports. I remember watching this at home. But look at the bobbiting and the weaving. It's not just right in front of him. It's angles. Like what here?

Boom. Oh, man. Oh, man.

That was when he was the champ. I mean, he wasn't the champ yet, but he was the champ. He was about to fight Trevor Burke. Arabic. But everybody was like, oh, my God, he's real.

Yeah, here's. Here's the thing that sparked some controversy. Mike Tyson versus Muhammad Ali.

It depends on which Tyson and which Muhammad Ali.

Well, the best of both, you know. Of course, you gotta say the best.

Muhammad Ali wasn't Muhammad Ali. I think it was Cassius Clay. I think the best was when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams. To me, I. I always tell people, like, you want to know Ali before they took his title away, before they put him on the shelf for three years because he wouldn't fight in Vietnam. Watch Cleveland Big Cat Williams, because Cleveland was a big, scary power puncher. And Muhammad Ali was just dancing around him. Dancing around.

But was he bigger than Muhammad Ali, though? That's the thing about Muhammad Ali. People don't realize. He was like the biggest guy in the ring. You know, he was only £4 different than Foreman. People don't realize because he moves around the way he moves back then.

But in the Cleveland Big Cat Williams days, he was light. He was only. Yeah, he was only like 215 or 220.

And Cleveland Williams was what? Big?

Look at the size of Cleveland. Look at his back. Look at the back on Cleveland.

Look at the legs, though.

Yeah, but he was a power puncher, man. You watch somebody look at this back. Cleveland was a scary dude, man.

He might be lean. He might be lean, but Muhammad Ali is a big dude.

Oh, he's a. Definitely a big dude.

I think Muhammad Ali's bigger than that guy.

Maybe. But look at the movement, man.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

So this movement was absent when he came back three years later. He never fought like this again. And when he fought Cleveland Big Cat Williams, Cleveland just did not know where he was. He was 212. Williams was 210 at weigh in. Oh, okay. Well, dudes were smaller back then. Like, think about Rocky Marciano. He was only 185.

But the thing is that people don't realize because he's fighting like a lighter guy. You got a bigger guy hitting guys especially. He, you know, he tricked people to coming in. And that magnifies everything, sort of.

But they're basically the same size. But 212 is fairly small. This is smaller than Mike was when Mike was in his prom time. And you know, Mike was only like 215. 220.

220, yeah. 221.

Yeah.

So that's why it's interesting because like, Mike moved his head. And the people who did the best against Muhammad Ali was with Joe Frazier and, and Ken Norton. But he moved their heads.

Yes. But again, these are the guys after this three year break. This three year break, Muhammad Ali didn't train. He didn't train at all for three years. When you watch when he comes back after that, like, come on, son. Yeah, the speed and Cleveland's like, what the fuck is going on?

But speed and a bigger guy. That's. That's the thing. That's the thing because like, you know, you thought when we were going in this clip that he was bigger than Muhammad Ali. I did, yeah. So, but the thing is, like, people don't realize how big Muhammad Ali actually was because George Foreman, you know, was a monster.

Look at these combinations.

And they were. His, his legs are bigger than George Foreman. Right. And we know where the power is, right?

Well, George Foreman, what did he weigh when they fought?

218. And I think Muhammad Ali was 214. They were like. Right. So the actual fight day, who know who was heavier?

Right?

You know, but I'm just saying it's interesting because you got a, you got a guy the same size as Foreman moving faster.

Yeah, but he didn't. In that fight, in that fight, he mostly laid on the ropes, remember?

I mean, he did the rope or dope. But I'm saying a lot of that. He still a bit big.

22212 to 220. Pretty close.

Yeah. I've seen it different. I've seen this.

He wasn't the same guy. If you fought, if George Foreman of that time fought Cleveland the. Muhammad Ali the fought Cleveland, Big Cat Williams is a completely different fight. Foreman's getting pieced up.

Yeah.

Pieced up from the outside. And Ali was just picking him apart and moving and Foreman swinging it air. He was like nobody else before him, man. It was. He was so different. He was so different. But those three years when he had to take three years and he didn't train at all and then he came back, and now he's 30 and, you know, no strength and conditioning for three years. No running, no boxing. His body looked different.

Yeah.

Who did he fight when he came back? He fought.

Lyle.

No, that. That white dude. That horrible brain damage to his Cobb. Jerry Cooney.

Oh, Jerry.

No, no, no. Jerry Quarry.

Quarry. Okay.

Yeah, when he fought Jerry Quarry. See if you find that fight now. Why? Look at his body when you see it. You see his body smooth. His footwork doesn't look the same. His timing is off. He had a ton of ring rust. He just didn't. What's that, Jimmy? He just didn't look the same. He didn't look the same. And I think that. That three years. They fucked him, man. Yeah, they fucked him. They fucked him. And, I mean, look, it made him a cultural hero because he wasn't willing to fight in Vietnam. And, you know, he famously. Like, look at his body. It's different, man. He's just not the same guy anymore. He's not moving as fast. And Jerry Quarry was just a really tough guy who was, you know, famous for being able to take a beating.

Yeah.

Like, Ali didn't have the endurance anymore. Like, look at him. He's just not the same guy anymore, man.

Yeah, it was.

He was a shadow of what he was before. He still went on to win the title. He still went on. But I always wonder what he would have been if those three years were not stolen from him in his peak, in his prime.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that. Would that have been something else. Yeah. Yeah. You know, there's one interesting thing. Another thing, interesting thing about Ali's. Like, try to find him throwing a body shot.

Right. Not a lot of those.

No. He almost never did maybe a jab.

Or two to the body. It's true.

It'd be interesting to count up all the body shots throughout his whole career, and you might get 10.

That's true.

Yeah, it's interesting.

Yeah, it is.

I mean, that's why when people talk about the greatest boxer, of course he's the. One of the greatest human beings, greatest Americans ever. Like, just. Man, the stuff he put it. Talk about putting himself out there for, you know, as far as a servant.

Yeah.

Of the world, there's nobody. I don't know anybody who compares to him.

Also, the personality. When he would go on talk shows, and he was just so fun.

How sharp was he?

Oh, so sharp.

All those things were memorized.

One of my favorite ones was Howard Cosell said, you're very truculent. Champ in the Goes whatever truck means if it's good, I'm that.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

I mean, he was just a different human being.

He was not scared of anything, man. There's some stuff that. Some interviews that he's being real controversial. Like, he would. He would actually talk shit to people and talk about whooping their ass. You know, just recently I've seen some stuff that I was like, wow, I hadn't seen this one.

Oh, yeah. If anybody disrespected him, if anybody, like, if they wouldn't call him Muhammad Ali, if they were calling him Cassius Clay, you would them up. What's my name?

Pop.

What's my name?

Pop. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was a special person and just culturally, like, one of the most significant figures ever in the history of America. Because at a time where the world was torn, like, why the are we in Vietnam? And this one guy says, I'm not doing this.

Yeah.

And then they're like, okay, we're going to strip your tide away from you. And then for three years, he was, you know, persecuted, and the whole world was watching. And they eventually let him fight again.

Yeah.

But by then we had realized that Vietnam was not a just war. And this guy, they had taken three years of his life away from him because he wasn't willing to participate.

Yeah, man. What a hero, man.

A real hero. A real hero. And like, again, a cultural icon, like a. Just a different kind of human being that inspired so many people outside of fighting. My parents were hippies, and my parents wanted to watch the Leon Spinks rematch. When he fought Leon Spinks, like, everybody was excited, sitting around. I'm like, I remember being a little kid going, I can't believe they want to watch this fight. This is so weird to me. Like, they want to watch a fight because that's who Muhammad Ali was. He was just different. He meant something to America in a way that no other fighter before or since has.

Yeah, man, there's so many, man. Just even. Even for equal rights and just for everything. Yeah. So so much that I really can't think of many people that's been more significant.

No, and many people think. Many people think about, like, what do you stand for? What do you. I mean, this guy, he could have easily just taken some stupid fucking desk job with the army or something and, you know.

Easily. Yeah. I mean, I did a movie last year in Louisville, Kentucky, and while I was there, I went and visited Muhammad Ali's grave site. And, dude, man, I didn't expect any. I was just. Let me see It. And dude, I couldn't talk for two hours afterwards. I just sat in my car, just all. Just got overwhelmed just to think what this man really meant. Yeah, it was just like it jacked me up. I didn't expect that.

Yeah. I can't think of another fighter that meant more like in terms of like a cultural icon on. Can't think of another one.

And put his life on the line and just was so, you know, and.

That'S a cautionary tale to fighters too, about the end, about fighting too long. Look, no one ever forgave Larry Holmes for beating him up. Larry Holmes, one of the greatest heavyweight champions of all time, never got his just due.

Right.

Because people never forgave him for beating up Ali.

Yeah, yeah. Honestly.

Which is crazy.

Yeah.

You know, it's not fair. Didn't make any sense. I mean, Muhammad Ali was trying to beat him him up. But, you know, everybody knew, even though Ali was fighting, everybody knew it was over. He wasn't the Muhammad Muhammad Ali of old.

Yeah. And he. He wanted to call it into the fight, man. Like, Holmes was like, why am I doing this? Right.

Yeah, yeah.

That was sad. Yeah. And. And he wasn't homes. Was never that much of a likable presence. And it's hard to come behind Muhammad Ali.

Right. He was never that kind of a personality.

Yeah, yeah.

But damn, did he have a jab?

That's the best jab around, Larry.

Even when he fought Tyson when he was popping him with that jab. And you made you wonder, God, I wonder what Larry would have done in his prime. This would have been an exciting fight to see. In his prime?

No. The two of them.

Yeah. I still don't think he would have been able to beat prime Tyson. No, but it was wild.

Tyson made his bones on fighting bigger guys and making them miss and pay for it.

Yeah, yeah.

So he load up on, you know, on his legs and a lot of times when he's landing, he's in the air. Yep, yep, he's in the air, man.

It was the speed too. Middleweight speed in a heavyweight body.

He's the fastest. Well, he was one of the fastest heavyweights, I think. Who? There's one guy, Usyk's pretty damn fast. Oh, Usyk's nice.

Yeah.

Oh, man, talk about personality. He's funny. That's a funny dude.

Oh, he's a character.

Yeah. Yeah.

And want to talk about technique too. And another guy was trained by the same guy as Lomachenko. Lomachen father trained Usyk.

Oh, cool.

Which is also why he's like a heavyweight. Usyk. Heavyweight. Lomachenko.

Yeah, yeah.

He's got that footwork and movement and that Russian style that, you know, Ukrainian, Russian styles, like those guys, they figured out movement and footwork. Bival has it, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's no. Like, we're very fortunate that we can see all of these incredible human beings that have, you know, risked their life and their health and put it on the line so we could see true lessons about character and technique.

Yeah. I just wish heavyweights would concentrate on technique a little bit more.

Right.

I mean, we're.

Well, maybe Usyk's changing people's perspective on that. Maybe they're realizing, like, wow, you can't just onew everybody.

Yeah. I think what. What happened. There's another thing in this country. It's like, people, I think they're not following boxing. They're not getting into boxing. A lot of these guys going for the money, they'll try to play football or whatever.

Well, since Deontay, we haven't really had a heavyweight boxing champion in America. Deontay was our last heavyweight boxing champion.

Yeah. And talk about technique is not the.

Best, but, you know, he had what Teddy Atlas likes to call the eraser, Right?

Yeah, true.

He can make all the mistakes in the world. He had that one eraser. Blam.

Yeah. Yeah.

Deontay's was the craziest knockout punch punchers that's ever existed. Yeah, it was nuts. He just. He hit you moving backwards and flatline.

Weighed like 212.

Great. 209 when he fought Tyson Fury the first time. 209.

Yeah. He and I went shooting before. Like, we. We've done some tactical stuff together.

Really nice guy.

Yeah.

I love talking to him on the podcast.

Oh, yeah, he's. He's, he's great. That's. I don't know. Like, just work on this technique, man. It's like, geez, I don't get it.

Yeah.

I don't know, man.

It's too late.

It's what you do for a living.

I think he relied on that gift for so long. Cause, I mean, look at the gift, though. I mean, at one point in time, he was like 39 knockouts out of 40 fights.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But it's like he's.

I know. Nuts. But it didn't matter when it landed. When it landed. You couldn't do about all that sloppiness.

I still. I still wouldn't mind seeing AJ versus him.

I still wouldn't.

That'd be interesting.

I think after the Car accident. AJ might be done though, because he was, you know, he was knocked unconscious in that car accident. I heard, really bad. I heard he was out for like 10 minutes.

Really?

Yeah. And his two friends died, you know, I mean, and after all his fights and, you know, you know that's the last thing he needed is some extracurricular brain damage like that.

True, true.

And then also losing his two great friends like that, it's got to be, you know, that's just crazy.

Yeah, that's a sad thing. But I think if he's my brother, my cousin, I'd be like, you gotta go through this. You can't, you know, you gotta. For their sake.

Yeah.

What would your friends want you to do?

Well, you know, we'll see.

Yeah, yeah. I'm hoping the best because look, he's another one of our warriors, man. He puts his body and, you know, life on the line. Yeah, for us, man, it's like that's our modern day gladiator, you know.

I know there's nothing like a fight. It's different than any kind of sporting event. It's very different. And the losses are way different. They're way harder to deal with and the victories are way greater.

Yeah. You know, one of my best friends being Frankie, man, like, so I got a front seat to all of the. That, you know, Frankie knocked out Roy Jones back in the amateurs and, you know, I wanted to see him get his due. I mean, he was wba super middleweight champ for five years straight. But, you know, it's a front seat to the boxing life and the fighting life.

It's a hard world.

Yeah, it is.

It's a hard world. And the end is not pretty. And there's no one there for you in the end. I was watching this piece on Bobby Chacon, who's a great fighter in the 80s, and oh my God, in the end it was horrible. It's just horrible watching just the deterioration and the brain damage and no one there for you. And that's a lot of guys.

Yeah, yeah. And if you, I mean, your brain, you know, it doesn't regenerate, you know, then.

No, it only gets worse.

Yeah.

And if you're, if you're experiencing brain damage now, I mean, without treatment. There's some treatments now, now that they're able to use to help regenerate some neural tissue and. But there's a certain amount you never come back from.

Yeah, yeah, I know. My son, one of my sons is, I mean, he's been going through, what do they call it? This is like a stimulation thing, the magnetic stuff. Yeah, it's. Man, I forget. But he's actually, it's actually helped him out a great deal. I mean he kind of went kind of an interesting route, like kind of experimented with some stuff before, but now he's kind of come back. It's turned him around.

What happened to him.

Yeah, he kind of was like getting high, doing. Kind of went that route for a minute. But it's, but he's gotten. I've just actually seen things turn around, around with this. I don't know why I can't remember, but it's this brain stimulation thing and it kind of rewires you, you know. You know, I think I heard you talk about the ibogaine, you know, Ned and those type of things. Yeah. So yeah, there's, there's things that are going.

There are things that can help, but you got to be very vigilant about it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I've been connected to a lot of the anti aging type of stuff. You know, we're getting up there, brother. Yeah, it's fascinating. A good friend of mine, Bob Goldman, I don't know if you know Dr. Bob Goldman is. No, yeah, you should have him on your show. He's an interesting guy. He runs a 4M. I don't know if you ever heard. It's this conglomerate of doctors all around the world that's dedicated, dedicated to fixing causes of diseases, not just chasing around the symptoms and stuff. And so it's like very much in the face of the pharmaceutical companies. They are really dedicated to taking care of things from the source. And it's been going on for a while, man. It's like they have about six of these, these things a year. One of the biggest ones is in Vegas. But like you look it up a 4M. Okay. Sylvester Stallone, Arnold Schwarzenegger, he's been, you know, dealing with them. They. I've actually tried to, I've hooked Nick Diaz up with him to help him because, you know, they're on the forefront of the new medicine type stuff. So yeah, he's, it's a, it's an interesting thing.

A4M have a lot of doctors who will be giving lectures on all the most innovative stuff and they have all the newest equipment that's just like, just the biggest kind of, I don't know, like rooms, huge rooms full of all the most collaborating.

Yeah, it's a good time to be an older person. There's a lot of science behind.

They have the belief that you should be in your, you know, living to 100, but healthily. Yeah, they really believe that.

And I, you know, if it's ever been possible, now's the time.

Oh, yeah, I think so too. Yeah, you should. My doctor, Dr. Alavizos, Dr. 63. He looks like a freaking superhero.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

63 year old guys when we were kids were basically dead.

Yeah.

They were just old men. Frail, feeble.

Yeah, it's interesting, man. It's like. And yeah, we're getting older, but knock wood, man. I've been very fortunate. I've been very lucky.

Yeah, me too. It's. This is a good time to be an older person.

Yeah, man. You look good, man. Thank you.

You too.

Yeah, yeah, we're, you know, I think I'm a little older than you, though.

How old are you? Yeah, I'm 58.

Oh, yeah? I'm a little older than you.

Okay.

Yeah.

Well, you look great.

Well, thank you.

You look great then. If you're older than me, I feel.

I feel good.

Yeah.

I feel very good.

It's a really good. Well, there's so much information now on how to maintain your body and how to maintain your health.

Yeah.

Older.

Yep, yep. You know.

Hey, brother, it's been great. I'm glad we got together.

Me too, man. Again, man. I got. I gotta tell you, man, how proud I am. Joe from the gym is doing his thing, man, in a big way.

I feel the same about you.

Thank you. Well, thank you, man.

This is a lot of fun.

Yeah, man, thanks for having.

We'll do it again sometime.

Yeah, we got to. All right.

Definitely.

Thank you.

All right, bye, everybody.