Transcript of #2435 - Bradley Cooper

Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.

The Joe Rogan Experience.

Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

Hey, Bradley Cooper, what's happening, baby?

You know what it's like when, like a Twilight Zone episode or something where, like, you're watching the tv, this is an episode where, like, I'm watching the.

Tv and all of a sudden you're inside the.

And you're looking at me and I got the. Yeah. And all of a sudden I'm inside the show. It's crazy.

It's weird for me, too. It's. It's weird for me that it gets weird for other people too. Like, when I see people being weird about it, like, it's okay.

I feel comfortable. Just so you know.

Oh, good, you look comfortable.

Yeah, no, no, no. But it's excitement.

It's weird for me. Like, I was trying to explain this to someone. They'll. They're like, do people have a hard time being comfortable on the show? I go, I kind of do too. It's fucking weird.

Yeah.

It's weird that. That many people are watching.

Yes.

And then you start thinking like, oh, don't fuck it up. Don't say that.

Right. But if you think about it, the fact that you did this long form setup and that we live in a culture where people at least say that every. It's all about short term. Yeah. It goes against it. The people are interested.

Yeah. Well, the short term stuff does work, you know, like, short attention span stuff is very popular, even with me. Like. But I have been resisting it more and more lately. I'm like a fucking heroin addict, like, slowly weaning myself off the drug. And the more I wean myself, the better I feel, like, physically better. My brain works better. I feel more relaxed. I don't feel like this, like sugar. Sean o', Malley, the UFC fighter, he said, even when I'm just scrolling, even if he goes, even if it's not anything about me, he goes, there's just like a low level anxiety that I get. I'm like, yeah, yeah. Because, like, you know, you're wasting your time chasing a fix that you're never going to get. And you're just like getting these short drips of like, oh, look at that. Oh, look at that. Scroll, scroll, scroll, scroll. But that's not what people really want. What people really want is something engaging, something you go, wow, that's like a great documentary. Like, which are still super popular. Like, a great documentary. They're still, you know, like, huge on Netflix and huge on YouTube. So this is.

Oppenheimer was like three hours long.

Exactly.

Billion dollars.

So people went, humans didn't change. It's just. You can hijack the reward system by giving them some short attention span nonsense. And it just, like, tricks their slow drip dopamine into, like, continuing to watch this. Stupid. But that's not what they want.

No.

You know, it's not what I want.

You know, it's the difference between, like. Yeah. Just a little drip of something that has the illusion that I'm getting what I want as opposed to what I actually need.

Yeah.

Which is sort of a reminder that I exist. Yes.

Yes.

And that I'm communicating with somebody and I can relate to it.

Yes.

Which is a different thing. And I only know this because I've never been on social media, but sometimes. There was one time I got on somehow got on TikTok, and it was all police footage, you know, like. And I was just. I remember laying on my couch, 40 minutes went by, and I was just doing this. And there was, like, the first part of the video, and then what happened? And then, like, the second part, part two. And that was the only time I experienced. I thought, I gotta stay away from this because I won't leave the house.

It's bad. It's bad for you, too, because it programs you to think that that is going on everywhere in the world. Like, if you have 8 billion people that are interacting with people all over the world, and you only take the worst examples of that and broadcast it, and then it becomes viral and millions and millions of people think it rewires your way, you think about human beings.

But the. And the other thing is about memory. Someone was talking about Niagara Falls the other day, and I thought, I've been there. Right. And I'm like, have I been there? Or did I see a video? Like. Or was that one of the things when I put the oculus on?

Right. Right.

Honestly, I can't remember, but I know what it feels like to be looking at it.

Oh, yeah.

So it's changing the way memory works.

100%. Yeah. I've come. I've hit a wall in my memory. Like a tangible wall. Because. And I think it's connected to, like, Dunbar's number. Like, Dunbar's number is the amount of people that you can keep in your head. Like, because we evolved in these tribal scenarios. We evolved with, like, 150 people. And so the way Dunbar calculated it, there's like, very close, intimate, close circle people, which is a small amount. And then immediate after that, there's A slightly larger amount. And then it gets up to. What was it like? It gets up to like a thousand people. 1500. 1500 people. That's the most amount of people you can keep in your head. So it's like five people that, like your tightest of tight, and then 15, like, slightly outside of that. And it gets all the way up to about 1500 people. Recognizable people.

But I would think I'd be able to. That you could keep in your head.

Yeah, but I'm way past 1500 people, so I'm right. Like, I am. Like, there's people that I know really well. And then I see them and I'm like, I don't remember his name.

1500 sounds.

And it seems bad. Like, I'm like, why can't I remember his fucking name? I can't remember his name. I'm horrible with names, but it's just because my hard drive sucks. It's like I don't have enough room.

Right.

It's like, you know, when you. The old iPhones, it was like you've run out of, you know, Mac space. Like, ah, geez, I gotta start deleting photos and videos now.

Do you get anxiety with that or do you sort of breathe through and say, well, it's just the way it is.

I kind of just deal with it. It is what it is. But. But my memory itself is like, very good and also very bad at the same time.

Yeah, me too. I have a serious problem remembering people's names.

When you think about how many people.

Like, as I was saying it, I was like. And I've watched it show so many times. I was like, jamie, Right? That's Jamie. Like, as you were saying, like, let me see. Who can I. Do I remember any of the guys I just met? Can't tell you one. I just met them, shook their hand, looked them in there.

They say their names and it just goes in and out.

Yeah.

And some people get upset. What's my name? I don't fucking know.

Oh, you don't remember me? Yeah, I'. You don't remember what's my name?

And you're like, well, that's why in Hollywood people love to say, good to see you, instead of nice to meet you. Like that you met me two years ago. Like, I don't remember.

Yeah. Leonard Bernstein had a great thing that he would always be. I loved you in the last thing you did.

That's funny. That's funny. Speaking of which, I watched your movie. Is this thing on? And it's good. It's really good, man. It's one of the best representations of someone attempting to do stand up. And it's like, it's a really good film. And you know, but it's not really just about stand up. It's. It's about these people with this. It's about they're actual human beings. Like, these are complicated, real, like not caricature, ish, not cartoonish people. Like, like, I get that these are real people, right? Good, complicated, real people that are trying to figure out their relationships in the context of this one guy, Will Arnett, is tempting to do stand up.

Right.

So it was great.

I'm glad you say that. So you. Because, you know, I moved to New York in 97 and. And then that was my introduction to any comedy world other than with my dad. I used to watch Rodney Dangerfield's, you know, New Year's Eve special. We used to watch it every year, you know, and it was Elaine Boozler and Sam Kinison and Dice and, you.

Know, Elaine Boozler, I forgot about her.

I'm pretty sure she was on there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And. And I was obsessed with Dice. When I was, like, in eighth grade, I memorized one of his records and I would do it in the train station with all my friends. Because back then that's all you did, right? You would memorize stuff.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

There was no video to look at. You know, you wouldn't all sit around, you would just memorize and then, you know, regale your friends, your impersonation of him. And then, And Richard Pryor was my hero. Hero growing up, that was my idol. So I had this thing with stand up comedy. And then I moved to New York and I'm all of a sudden immersed with these clubs and Upright Citizens Brigade had just started. And I did this movie, what Hot American Summer. And there was all these people I didn't even know about the state. Remember that show on mtv? There was a. All this. And so I just, you know, little by little immersed myself into that world and I just became fascinated with the culture. And then Zach Galifianakis, who I met like in 2001, way before hangover, I used to go and watch him do stuff. And I just love the culture. And when Will was telling me about this, I was like, oh, let's set it in New York and the Cellar, because I just love the, the geography of the Cellar too, that you go in the Olive tree and you walk down into this place.

It's this whole other world. And. And it just felt like, yeah, I really want. Like, can I. Can we pull this off where it's authentic, where you were watching it at home and you get a sense of the fact that you're saying that, you know, you feel like it got it, you know, within the striking distance makes me really happy.

This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. Squarespace makes building and managing your website ridiculously easy. They give you everything you need to showcase and get paid all in one place. And with cutting edge design tools, anyone can create a custom site that truly fits their brand. Head to squarespace.com rogan for a free trial and when you're ready to launch, use the offer code rogan to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. Yeah, it's striking distance. It's like the one of the only films are like. Punchline was an interesting film. The Tom Hanks, Sally Fields. Yeah, of course. But it was bullshit. Like, you watch it, like, where they have lockers, like, what the fuck is this? Like, like. And also the comedy wasn't good. It wasn't real comedy. It was like it felt flat and fake and people were laughing at nothing. The will stuff felt real. Yeah, it felt real. You know, like the clubs felt with like a guy trying to work out what it's like to be on stage and open mic. And then the fact you got Jordan Jensen, who I love. Yeah, she's fucking great.

I texted her afterwards, like, isn't she great in the movie? She's great.

I mean, the minute I started shooting her and I was like, oh, wait a second. Yeah, yeah, it was like. And the first thing I shot with her was one of her. One of her sets. And I was just up there with the camera and I came around and her profile and actually I felt like I was in the Stars Born. She looked a lot like Gaga and Ally, like, singing shallow.

Oh, wow.

I had like this weird moment. I was like, whoa. And then she was just incredible. And then, then as it went on, she had a larger part of the movie. And then that whole thing when they're talking about the small penis and we go up to her and just her writing that down and she was just so fluid. And I was like, oh, yeah, she's got it, man. She's got it.

She's great. She's really great. She's a really unique person. Like a very unusual per. Like even just talking to her.

Oh, yeah. Grew up on a farm with two moms and. Yeah, yeah. Amazing. Yeah. She could do anything.

I know. And she's so fun. She's fun on stage too. She's great. Like, very crowd. Very, very smart.

Very smart.

But like her character, like, the way she interact. I'm like, oh, that's so realistic. Like, we should fuck like that.

Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then you go back to the, like, East Village of Chinatown apartment you know, they live in. It's all one room.

Yeah, I believe it. Yeah, it was great. It's. It's like, you know, you're never going to really capture stand up in a movie because it's like, to capture what it is, you would need, like years.

And also you would need a movie dedicated to it.

Exactly.

The movie's not dedicated to it. Exactly. You know what I mean? It was just about, can I make you feel like you're there? That you're with him on stage?

Yes.

That what? That could be like, you know, the silence and then the cameras. Boom. There's nowhere to go.

How did you work out the standup scenes? Did you have real audiences?

And then it was never real audiences because you have to hit the quota of extras with SAG and all that. But we try to do it as authentic as possible, which was. Everybody that works at the Cellar, they're there in the movie. Everybody who agreed to do it. So all the waiters and everything, the staff, that's all people that work there. Liz, who's the manager, who plays the manager. She's the manager of the seller. So all those people are real. But then the patrons. I can't remember what the email was or what the ask was, but, like, people who like to go to stand up comedy, who go. Who go regularly. And then once they were there, I never told them what was gonna happen. I never directed them once. It was like, whatever the they're laughing at, that's it. And I don't do many takes, so you're getting an authentic reaction now. It's hyped up because there's cameras there and it's a movie, but they're not told what to do.

It feels like that.

And so. And even in the mix, like, we never added anything. There was no added laugh, nothing.

Oh, that's great.

Yeah, yeah. It's all because I was like, it's just gotta be real because I wanted Will to just, you know, I just don't want him to act right. I just want him to. And that's why, you know, you. Shane Gillis was kind enough. The first time he went up was here at the Mothership. Shane gave him four minutes of his set and he and I and Will and I flew to Austin. And we were sitting in the green room, and Shane was like an hour and a half late. And Tony was there, and he was so nice. I'd never met Tony before. And that's where I smelled the thing. You know, I did this.

Oh, smelling sauce, dude.

Fuck me. That shit is no joke, dude.

Yeah.

And that was the first time Will ever went up. And he was just trying some of that material and went up as Alex Novak. Because I was like, when do you have an opportunity as an actor to actually do the thing you're preparing to do and think about how much that would cost. You go into a room where there's real people, and then every step that you're taking, you're in a club. So he did that. And then when we went back to New York, he did it like three times a week, four or five times a night for like six weeks.

Wow.

Just so he could understand what it's like. And some people didn't know who he was. You know, you get a lot of tourists come into New York City and there were nights where you knew that he. When he said, alex Novak, they're like, cool, right? Not like, you're not Alex Novak.

Right.

Okay, let's see what you got. And so that was really. That was really great.

How did you. Who wrote this film?

He wrote it with this guy, Mark Chappell. It was a movie that was more about his. Based on this guy. John Bishop, who's a real comedian, is a very successful comedian in the uk, and he will met that guy on a barge somewhere, and he was talking about his story and he was like, yeah, I was doing something else. My wife and I were breaking up, and I walked into a bar, a pub one night. I didn't want to pay the COVID That really happened to this guy. So he put his name down and then they called him. And then he was like, yeah, I'm getting a divorce and got a couple chuckles. But he just loved it. Never done comedy. Nothing before that. And he kept going back and he, like, was obsessed by it. And then, like weeks later, his wife, estranged wife, walked into a place he was doing an open mic at with her girlfriends, and he was doing a set about their relationship. So that actually happened.

Wow.

I know. And then they got back together, and they're still together. And then now he, like, he tours around the world. Like he makes a living as a comedian.

That's incredible.

Yeah. So when he was telling me that I was doing another movie, and I remember I was like, what are you working on? Because we've been friends for. For like 25 years. And he was telling me that, and I was like, I just imagine Will because I know him so well, and he's so charismatic and funny and just has this presence that is kind of lacking. I don't feel like there's like a male archetype now that fits him. He's like Robert Mitchum. He reminds me of like a young Robert Mitchum, Will Arnett. And he's telling me that I'm like his voice and like that face. Stand up. I just couldn't get it out of my head, Joe. And I was like, hey, man, can I read it? Like, how far along are you guys? And I read it and I was like, I didn't quite. Because, like you, I had never seen a movie that I thought nailed it. And I love stand up comedy so much. I was like. And I have no desire to try to redo it. And also, comedy is so massive right now and the specials are so great and cinematic right now that there's no reason to try to make a fictional movie about something that we can watch as a documentary or a docu series or a show that is authentic.

I was like, so. But I still would really love to capture it cinematically. So what if it's a foil and. And the movie's about the two of them? Because that's interesting. Yes. And you suck.

Well, that was one of the great scenes where Jordan was like, you're bad.

You're really bad. And it's much more about just what? Stand up comedy with anything. And you talk about this on your show, doing anything that puts you out of your comfort zone, anything that pushes you, you're gonna improve as a human being. That was really what that whole thing is about. And I just love the culture and the world. And I thought there's so much tangible stuff there for me to get excited about cinematically and story wise. But really, it's like it could have been anything, just something that he had never done that he had puts himself out there. And that in doing it and doing it, he just sort of gets more comfortable, you know, and then the mic comes off the stand and then he's leaning against the wall. And by the end of it, and then the way it was structured, it allows him to do that vampire set at the end of the movie where all he's doing is exercising what he's feeling emotionally. Because he's comfortable in this setting. Yeah, because the old him, when he has that fight with her in the attic, he just would have kept that all inside.

And he would have been catatonic at his kids assembly where we meet him in the beginning of the movie. Because you just don't know what to do with all that. But if you have an outlet, something expressive. Yes, you can, you can, you know, exercise it in a healthy way.

Yeah.

So that, that's what, that's. That really was the point of that whole part of it being stand up comedy and open mic.

What you really nailed is someone trying it for the first time. You guys really nailed that. You really nailed a beginner in comedy. Like, it seemed completely realistic.

Great.

Yeah. And like, I think that's one of the reasons why Kill Tony is so popular.

Yes.

You know, because you get to see, like, you can't. That. That raw reality of someone who has never done stand up before. Like there was people that went up at Madison Square Garden in front of 16,000 people that had never done stand up before.

No, no, no, that's. This is.

Don't do that.

Yeah.

You should be in a fucking smoky room. Well, not smoke anymore, but a tiny fucking room where disinterested people, where everyone's bombing and you bomb to it. It's not that big a deal because you might have some potential. But if you fucking bomb in front of 16,000 people, the pain of that, you may never recover.

Also, just thinking about the like, because you're going to hear your voice through the, you know, echoing, it's. It can't be just in it. Like, so there, I imagine there's an echo. So you're not only bombing, but you're hearing it reverberate.

You don't really feel the echo. You don't hear the echo because you have monitors on stage. So it's. I see you pretty flat.

Okay.

But the noise of your voice where you've never heard your voice into a microphone before ever, Right? And now you're in front of 16,000 people doing it, and then Tony sitting there looking at you and Shane's there and I'm there.

It's like a nightmare. It's like you're. You're walking into a nightmare. Well, what.

Just doing stand up in front of like a guy like Shane Gillis is crazy.

Crazy.

Sitting right next to you. You've never done stand up. You're gonna do stand up right next to a guy who's selling out arenas. Like, that's nuts. That feeling is nuts.

But it's wonderful to watch because you're watching authentic reactions Happening in.

Yes. Okay. If your new Year's resolution was change everything and be a new person, good luck. So instead of pretending you're going to meal prep kale forever or do morning cold plunges, here's one actually realistic thing. AG1. AG1 is a daily health drink that supports your energy, gut health, immune health, and helps fill common nutrient gaps. Just one scoop in cold water each morning and you're off. It's got over 75 vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and whole food ingredients in there. So instead of guessing whether you need a probiotic or a prebiotic, or sorting through 10 different bottles of pills and powders, you can just do one scoop and get on with your day. It's great because it feels like the grown up move, but for once it's actually really easy. It takes like 30 seconds and you'll notice the steadiness that sets you up for the day. Not wired, not crashing, just functional human being energy. I partnered with AG1 for years and if you want to give it a try, head to drink ag1.com Joe Rogan and for a limited time you'll get a free AG1 duffel bag and free AG1 welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription.

Order only while supplies last. That's drink ag1.com Joe Rogan or visit the link in the description to get started. It's not processed. It's. It's as. As clean a mental food as you're gonna get.

Yeah, it's true. Y.

It's just that we. I think human beings really love seeing what it's like when someone starts out doing something. Because a lot of people have these ideas like, ah, maybe I could try that, or maybe I could learn how to play guitar or maybe I could do that. But it's just the getting going and sucking at something in the beginning is terrifying for people. So when they see someone just try it, I think they're like, oh, look at him go. Look at him. He's out there doing it. He's on the bike, he's moving. You know, it's like you see actual people that are trying to do something that they've never done before and it's exciting.

And also the one thing I wanted to touch on is the craft of it all. You know, that it's. That it takes a lot of work. I know that it's not, you know, just, you know, the writing, you know, she says that one point, she's like, you gotta write, you know, keep going up. And I think most people, at least I Didn't know before I started going that people go up three or four times a night. Like, I didn't understand. And so that was something I thought it was important to convey just the work ethic that's needed.

Well, New York is really great for that. And it's always had a culture of that. It's had a culture of guys hopping from club to club and doing set to set because there's so many clubs in. In Manhattan. So guys would just, you know, I think the most guy I ever heard, one guy did eight. Eight or nine sets a night. Like, they're just like, that's how many clubs there are. So you just hop all over the place. You start your night at like 8pm yeah, downtown.

There's ton downtown that you can go uptown.

Yeah, Go all over the place. It's. We've got a lot of that here now. There's just so many clubs in Austin now.

I mean, we went there. What you built is incredible.

Thank you.

The culture, everything. You know, I showed the movie to a stand up who hadn't done stand up in like 15 years, and he said, the only thing that for sure you got wrong is the culture. I was like, what do you mean? He's like, no, people aren't that nice. And I was like, actually, I think you're wrong. I was like, it's changed. I was like, people are supportive now.

It's in where you go, there's places where it's not very supportive, really.

But at least like, I used to go to the cellar, like in early 2000s. Didn't feel like it does now.

Right. Well, I think Ari Shafir changed that a lot. He brought like the culture of L. A. To New York where you, like, more supportive of each other. It was always like dog against dog. Because really the way it all started out was in the 1990s, it was all about. Everyone was auditioning for a sitcom. And if you and I were. If I showed up to audition for a sitcom, like, oh, fuck, Bradley's here. He's going for the same part. Fuck that guy. You know, it was because it was like, that could change your life if you got that sitcom. Now all of a sudden, you're fucking huge, and I'm still like struggling to pay my rent, eating ramen. And it could have been me, right? And so there's this like serious resentment that happens in the 1990s because everybody, like the golden carrot at the end of the stick was the Tonight show or, you know, hosting a late. If you could get Your own late night show. Oh, my God, he made it. He's a host of the Tonight Show. That was like the thing that only one person could get. And then there was like the sitcom.

Like, if it really worked out, they'd make a sitcom around you. You get a development deal. So there was. People would psychologically backstab people. People would talk shit to people before they went on stage. They would try to hijack their fucking mind right before they, like, really. It was dark, crazy. And then the Internet came around. And then the Internet, instead of people being your competitors, they became not just your friends and not just your colleagues, but also an asset. Because if you're doing a podcast and you've got your funny friends on, then your podcast is better, Right? And then if you tell people about their podcast and their podcast is better, and then you go on their podcast and that's better. And everybody benefits from everybody else doing well. So it became completely reversed the system. And then it became much more about being supportive of each other. And then everybody kind of realized, like, hey, it's way more fun when we're all having fun, you know? And since the television thing kind of died off, the sitcom thing kind of died off with reality shows, and then it was really just more about getting clips up on the Internet and about getting.

And then there was Netflix specials. So it wasn't just everybody trying to get an HBO special. There was way more specials. And then you could just upload specials to YouTube and became this way more collaborative, supportive environment. And then Ari Shafir took that, that we had kind of like established in LA and brought that to New York. And a lot of those guys ran with it.

Yeah, I mean, that's the way to go. People always say, you know, there's a lot of room at the top. Yeah, there's a lot.

There's a lot of room in stand up, for sure.

You know, and it's like. And everybody has their own lane, even within this big highway. And everybody wants to be with other people. Who wants to be a lone wolf, really, for a long period?

Yeah, there's a few. There's a few out there, but they're all psychologically destroyed. They're just a mess.

Yeah.

Who doesn't want to have friends? It's crazy.

Yeah.

I don't get it. But, you know, it's that aspect of the culture I felt like in the movie you guys nailed, which is a realistic aspect, a realistic portrayal of what it's like where a bunch of people just. They were all busting Each other's balls.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, exactly. You could be supportive and still honest. That was the thing. There's no lack of honesty or criticism. It's just. It's not done with the hope that you. Your demi for your demise. Yes, that's the difference.

Yeah. I think the 90s, like, poisoned a lot of comedians. It poisoned them because it gave you this idea that the whole thing was about a means to an end, and that end was a sitcom. And everybody thought you just had to get a sitcom, got to get a sitcom, and that was what everybody was working towards. There's people that were developing their entire act based around a. Around a Persona that they could sell to the networks.

Were you doing stand up before your sitcom?

Yes.

I see. Okay, so is that how that happened? Did someone see you and then they were like, oh, you got it. You got to try this show?

Yeah, I got. I got ridiculously lucky. Like, you know, a lot of people say, oh, I work really hard to get on a sitcom. Nope, no, I got lucky. I did the mtv. I never had any aspirations to act at all. I did MTV half hour, comedy hour. I got a development deal, and all of a sudden I'm living in L. A and I'm on a sitcom.

And it happened in a couple of great sitcom.

I was on a bad one first. I was on a bad one called Hardball. It was a sitcom on Fox where I played a baseball player. That show got canceled, and unfortunately I thought it was going to go because I was retarded. I was, you know, 25 years old, 26 years old. And I was like, oh, this is going to take off. I should get an apartment. So I had a lease on an apartment, and I.

Everybody. I'm sure people were telling you that it was going to take off too. Oh, yeah, of course.

Everybody believed it.

Yeah, you're going to win an emm.

Well, the guys who made it, Jeff Martin and Kevin Curran, they worked on the Simpsons. They worked on Married with Children. They were really good. But then the Fox people came in and just ruined it. Like, the executives came in and they brought in a bunch of hacks and just ruined the show.

Did you have fun doing it?

Oh, yeah, I had a kind of good time. But I also missed comedy and I missed New York people, and I wanted to get out of there. I was like, I got to get back to New York. Fuck this place. As soon as it was over. But I was like, fuck, I got this lease. So I had a lease for a year, and then I got a Development.

How long were you in LA at that time?

Oh, I was only in LA for a few months.

Wow.

Yeah. So I moved out there to do the show.

Right.

I got a lease, like, almost immediately. And then I was out there for a few months. Show got canceled. And then I got a development deal to do something for NBC and they were going to do my own sitcom. And but as we were developing it, they said, hey, there's a show that we're doing. It's called News Radio. It's already been picked up. We already did the pilot, but we fired one peep, one person from the pilot. And we want you to read for this. And that's how I got on News right now. That's how it happened. Like, that was this only second show I ever auditioned forever.

Wow.

So I had one show that is canceled.

You had a very unique track, Dumb Luck. That's nuts.

Stumbled into it 100. I can't take any credit for it. Dumb Luck.

Amazing.

Just my ability to keep it together in auditions and not. Not crack with no acting experience at all. But it was just not. It wasn't something that I aspired to. So it didn't have the kind of pressure that it probably had for a lot of people.

Probably didn't have the same kind of elation too.

Right.

Like you, I assume it was not something you really wanted. It was like, it was fun. But you weren't like, this is. This is. Like, this feels right.

No, what it felt like is, oh, I'm gonna make. Get money.

Yeah.

Get some money.

Yeah. Then something's wrong. Something's wrong.

I was like, this is good. I'm gonna get money and I don't have to worry about money. That's how I thought about it.

Right.

And then when I was doing it, I was like, wow, I'm so lucky. Like, how did I stumble on? I'm here with Phil Hartman.

This is crazy. Crazy dude.

Dave Foley and Stephen Root. Tierney. Like, this is nuts. Yeah, it was a crazy.

Right?

No, it was Paul Sims.

Paul Sims, right.

Yeah. Who had just left Larry Sanders show.

Right.

So he left. Yeah, it was crazy luck. Just stupid dumb luck.

That's right. Sorgan did that other show with Jeff. Dan Daniels. Right.

Yeah. It was. It was a lot of fun. So. But. But back in those days, like, everybody was working towards that, and fortunately I already had that. So my thing was just like, continue to work on stand up and just work on my stand up. And if this all goes away, I'll just go back to being a comic.

And Doing stand up in la.

Yes.

Right. So. And so that was new. That's. Yeah.

And that's where I encountered, like the worst backstabbing I've ever seen in my life.

So you're coming from New York where you didn't feel that.

You didn't feel it as much.

Right.

You know, you felt like a lot of shit talking. But that was fun. You know, guys would make fun of you. Bombed.

Right? They were doing it to your face.

Yeah, they were doing it to your face. And it was a more like. It was just a more ball busting, like, silly environment in New York. It wasn't. No one thought they were going to get famous in New York. You know, they were all just.

Right, just.

But in L. A, everybody had this idea to get a sitcom. And then in the 1990s, they started giving out development deals. That was the big thing. You get like a 200,000, half a million dollar development deal, and then all of a sudden you have all this money and you're living. And so everybody was working towards that. So it became, instead of like people working towards just being a stand up, it became stand up was a means to an end. And then all these other people, they were in your way to get that goal.

Jesus.

And then your agent was telling you that's what you had to do. And because they wanted that money too. So it's all like programming people to go after the.

So completely different culture in the stand up community there.

Exactly. But then that all went away. It all went away like this. The idea of working towards a sitcom is not. It's like working towards a career in HAM radio, like, fucking went away.

Well, you say that Ari changed it. How did he do it?

Because he brought the LA culture to New York. Ari moved from LA back to New York and he. I mean, everybody that I talked to in New York is Ari's like, you guys are doing it wrong.

Like, people listen to him.

Yeah, well, because he was established and he was a really good comic. And they were like, okay, I think he's right.

Wow.

And they would come to. They would come to la. Like, a lot of guys like Andrew Schultz and a lot of these other guys, they would come to LA and they're like, bro, everybody's so fucking nice here. And they're all just having a great time. Like, why aren't we doing that? Why aren't we just having a great time? And so it shifted. It's just. It was the culture of the Internet. The Internet changed everything. Because there was no longer this One thing that a hundred guys were trying to audition for now, it was anybody could just put up something online and then all your friends became assets. They all became, like, valuable to you instead of competitors.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Do you go up in these cities ever now?

I do. If I'm in la. I'll still do sets in L. A. I haven't been in a while, but, you know, most of the time I'm at my own club.

Right.

It makes it way. Also, I have teenage kids and they're. I want to be home.

Did you do the Cellar?

Yeah, I did this.

Yeah.

Back in the day. But more I did. I did the Stand. I did catch when it was there, right. I did. I always did Danger Fields. Danger Fields was great because it was like Hole in the Wall. There was hardly anybody shot.

His special.

Yes.

Yeah.

It was big in the 80s. And then something happened and by the time I got there in the 90s, it was like fucking dead. One time I went there and I had a spot at like 8:30. And I don't remember what time the show started, but there was a few people on before me. And I got there and the people that were on before me were sitting at the bar. I go, what's going on? There's no crowd. I'm like, there's no crowd, there's nobody. And so then this couple walked up and they bought tickets for the comedy show. And this guy Bobby, who was the doorman, like, stepped right up. He was a Scottish guy. Come on in. Have you seated? He seats them down. There's no one there, just them. They sit down. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to Danger Fields, your first act. And we all did stand up for two fucking people. Wow. Yeah. The whole night was two people. And they had a great time, I'm sure, but it was weird. It's like when you're doing stand up.

For just two people, you're only looking at two people.

But you also realize how much of your act is bullshit. How much of your act is like fucking dance moves. It's just nonsense, like English on the cue ball. It's like you're doing a lot of silly things that, like, don't even. And you. You're not connecting with real humans, right? And when there's two people there, it like, cuts the fat out of all of your shit and you recognize where the flaws in your writing are and the flaws in your delivery. But Dangerfields was. It was a wild little place. It was. It was like a classic comedy club that didn't have Any. No industry went there. No agents, no managers went there.

Always.

Yeah, it was just like bunch of weird degenerates. And it was fun. Wow, that was fun place. So I did that club a lot, but a lot of. I did the road a lot.

Yeah.

Because that was how I could make money and I could headline. Like I do an hour. Because if you're in the city, you're doing 15 minute sets or 10 minutes. That's like, that's great. But it's hard to piece together an hour at a 10 minute sets because you kind of want to let the material breathe and put it all together, of course, composing into one big thing. And you really can work on that a lot more if you're actually headlining.

Do you watch a lot of specials, comedy specials nowadays?

I don't. I watch a lot of comics like when I see a club.

Right. But not, not like.

No, I probably should. I probably should watch more of them. But really comedy is. It's like an artistic form of hypnosis. And the real way to see comedy is to be there live. Because you're like. And you know when the person's locked in and you know when they're not, you feel it. They got you. Like they're thinking for you. Like, if I'm watching a tell and he's at like the mothership and he's killing, like we're all like this. We're like locked into his brain and we're letting him like take us on a ride.

Yeah, of course.

It's like a kind of a form of hypnosis.

Yes.

And I really think that a standup special, as good as they are, you're maybe getting 60 to 70% of the experience of actually being there.

That's why I enjoy watching him. To see how different people make them. Because there's all different types.

Yeah.

You know, some are heavily edited, which always brings me out if there's a way to keep it so you feel like you're in the room.

Right.

You know, I remember it was a Mr. Tambourine man or the Chris Rock special where when he changed the tone of it and he started talking about jerking off to porn and how he became addicted to porn. And it was that great filmmaker who, Who's a comedian who does music. He did that thing during COVID when he was in his house. Bo Burnham, I think he directed it. And the camera just keeps going on, keeps going on. By the time you don't even realize it. Cause you're hypnotized. You're right Here on Chris Rock. And I think probably subconsciously, just thinking about it now, that's probably one of the things. Cause that's kind of the frame I use the whole time on Alex, on Will. But I remember watching that going like, when the fuck did this become a close up? You know? But that's what it was happening. So there was a synergy between the camera and what he was doing in the place. Or at least made me feel like cinematically I was there and this is what he was doing, hypnotizing me. Right.

And then the opposite of that was the special that Chris Rock did where he changed clothes. So he was doing a special where he filmed part of it in one place and another part of it in another place. And he spliced the two of them together with different outfits. So you would have him begin a bit with one outfit on and then end the bit with a different outfit on it.

Yeah.

And you're like, what?

Yeah.

Whose idea was this?

Yeah, because the minute you cut and edit in any way, you know, even podcast, audio wise, that's the thing I've learned. You know, some people, you know, they edit the audio of a podcast and you're like, that's not. Someone didn't take a breath before they answered.

Oh, like cutting out in between.

Yeah, it's. It's a whole other rhythm.

Right. Well, that's the YouTube thing. Right. The YouTube for a long time was doing these things where they would cut out all the pauses in between people talking things. And it became like a style of editing.

Right.

Where it's like shocking.

But my ears, like, it's impossible for me to get in.

Right.

It's just impossible.

Well, it's, it's the short attention span concept.

Right.

You're just saying people are so fucking stupid. You can't give them any breaks. You can't give many breath. You got to keep talking, keep talking, keep talking. And then, you know. Yeah, and it's like after a while.

It'S just like this wash and. Yeah, yeah.

Just trying to keep you engaged as much as possible by editing instead of by having actually interesting, compelling content. Yeah, yeah.

But it's an interesting exercise. Yeah, it's, it's, it's, it's. I enjoy watch. Like, I think Josh Safdie did Sandler's one and he, and he did all this backstage and he walked up and then he was in many locations, but he was playing music a lot. Yeah, I just like watching everybody's different, you know, sort of exploration of different stand up shows because it's such a huge, viable market, so people, you know, it's. It's fun to watch how they do it. I think that's probably why, because I watched so many of them, I wanted to do it in a way, in a movie.

Have you done Stand up at all?

Never. Never did.

Never.

No.

Have you thought about it? When you were doing the film, did you think about doing it?

No. No. Yeah. And I don't know why. Joe Y. Yeah. But no, I just. It's not, like, one of those things that I feel compelled to do. But would it. Would it be fun? Would I be scared? All those things. Will I try an open mic one night? Yeah, I probably should. But it's not. I didn't feel compelled to do it. No.

The problem would be if you did it and it went okay, but you're like, I think I could do better.

And then I'm.

And then you're gone.

You know me.

I know everybody. It's kind of the same thing with all of us.

Yeah, of course, dude.

There's always a party. Like, I think I can do better. And then next thing you know, like, I gotta leave. I gotta go do a set.

Right.

What the are you doing?

Like, dad, I haven't eaten dinner.

It's like, all artistic pursuits, they can become an obsession, and they become an addiction, and they become a part of you. And then it's like your brain naturally goes towards that pathway of thinking about that thing all day.

Yeah. Which I love. Oh, it's great.

If it's a fun thing.

I remember being 11 and watching the Elephant man and knowing at that moment. You okay?

Yeah. I'm sweating.

Knowing at that moment that, like, oh, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life.

When you saw the Elephant Man. Yeah. Really?

Yeah, I remember.

How is it that movie?

I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've thought about it a lot. Obviously, David lynch directed it. I remember the scene. Anthony Hopkins, I would love film, so I always loved film. My dad loved film. But it wasn't like a conscious thing where I was like, this is it. And I remember, you know, in my living room, it's on the tv. I saw all the movies on the tv. You know, I never saw Apocalypse now in a movie theater or Godfather or anything. Willingness. As long as it's runner or, you know, none of it. It was all on the television and. But I was watching the Elephant Man. It was on hbo. It came through Philadelphia, where I live, Comcast. And they would show, like, it all the time. And it was Anthony Hopkins coming in and he's seeing Joseph Merrick, the Elephant man for the first time. And the way David lynch shot it, you only see his shadow. And then Hopkins starts crying. And I don't know, I was just like, I was there in that cellar with him, and I was like, I forgot I was in the living room. And then the whole movie was like that.

And it came out. I was like, I just want. I want that.

So was that, like, the first seed that was planted?

Yeah, that was it. It was the first and only. It was. I was 11. It was like. It was like, bam. It was like a shot.

There's a scene right here, so.

Yeah, right. It's right. This. This is it.

Oh, look how young Anthony Hopkins looks.

Yeah, he was incredible.

Stand up, stand up.

Turn around, turn around, turn around. Wow.

Wow. That was it.

Yeah.

Wow. What is it like watching that now? Like.

Yeah.

Thinking that that planted a seed that changed your whole life?

I'm like, well, first I thought, wasn't it a shadow? But that was before. And then I'm like, oh, yeah. And then. Yeah, then I was just in it. Then all of a sudden I was there. Then I was like, is Joe in it? Does he know what I'm talking about? And then all of a sudden, as my brain started going, the movie kept bringing me in it. Yeah. And then by the end, by that push in, I was like, I'm just watching this guy. Look at this thing for the first time. And then, fuck, look at this beast, Anthony Hopkins.

I wonder what he was looking at when he was crying.

I know.

You know, because people pull that out of your eyeballs.

Oh, dude. And I wrote. So I went to grad school and moved to New York, wrote him a letter because our dean said somehow he knew him or he had. The school I went to, that I only got into because they let anybody in. They did that show Inside the Actor's Studio. Do you remember that? On tv, On Bravo. Do you remember that show? And so our thesis was the show. There was like, our. Not like our. There was a class that. But it was a class, like, technically a class. And so all these incredible people would come on, and Anthony Hopkins was there, and I was there for that. And then I wrote him a letter just telling him. And I asked James Lipton, that was his name. The dean.

Yeah.

And. And then, you know. And then never, you know, I never heard from him ever. And then, you know. And now I know him.

Dude, you know, how weird.

It's Crazy.

It's so weird, right? I never get over that.

Me neither.

Meeting ever, Ever.

And there's some guys. I don't know if you feel this way too, but, like, there's some guys, like, then they become your friends. But still, I still feel a little bit of, like, extra energy when I'm around them. Like, it'll never go away, right?

Yeah, for sure.

It's crazy.

For me, one of the big ones was Tarantino. Like, hanging out with Tarantino. It's so odd. Going to dinner with him.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Hanging out with him here, him coming to the club, he come hang out, hang out in the green room.

That's nuts.

This is weird. It's like, that's Quentin Tarantino.

Yeah, that's great. Yeah. And it never goes away as close as you get. Even when your brain's off, right? Because that's always the lipness. Is my brain off when I'm with the person? Like, when, Like.

Okay, right?

And even, like, Clint Eastwood, who I did American Sniper with. I mean, it was always Clint Eastwood. And I got to a point where my brain was off, you know? But still, I'm just like, what if my dad was alive? If my dad was like, he would flip the out.

What was it like doing that scene with the fake baby? Was that weird?

So funny. I was just talking about that two days ago, dude. And, you know, I've come full circle. Yeah, I actually think it's dope.

Really? I think it's fucking dope because it's.

So just like, wow, look at these people, fully invested. And it's a doll.

Like a scene where you, like, kind of, like, moving the handle.

I could tell you the whole thing, dude. So we had three sets of twins, and Clint likes to shoot fast, which I loved and love. And they were crying and they weren't ready. And he was like, you know what? Let's just. Let's put. Let's put the doll in. And I was like, okay. I was like, all right. And I had the doll, and I remember and I made a joke on set, and I was like. I was like, I just saved you 35 grand because I moved his hand with my thumb, you know, like, I saved visual effects, like, 50 grand. Like, made a joke about it. And then we got to post, and we were in Vancouver doing the meeting. But, you know, everybody defers to the boss. I still remember being in a room, and I'm like, a theater. We're watching, and they're like, okay, Clint. So we did this, and you Know, the tank has dirt on it, and, you know, whatever visual effects they had done, we get to the baby, and I'm like, okay, Clint, this is this scene, and it ends. And I'm literally behind Clint. I just see the back of his head, and I'm waiting for everybody to raise their hand, like, we gotta spend more money and make the kid real.

And I think the kid had, like, two fingers, too. Like, they weren't even. It was like an AI. Yeah, there it is. Yeah, that's it. That's me. I'm doing that. That's it. But, dude, it's kind of dope. I love it. Now I've come full circle, and I raised my hand, and I was like, clint, I just think that it's clear, you know, that that's not a baby. And can we at least just find out what the cost would be? And no one said anything. And then I remember he was like, nah, I think we move on.

Wow.

And that was it, dude. That was it. And I was like, okay, okay. And I remember talking to the other producer. I was like, this is gonna come back. I was like, bro, this is gonna come back to haunt us. And I remember he said, no, Bradley, you're too close to the movie. I was like, I don't think so, dude.

No. Everybody's like, he's moving his thumb. This is crazy. That's a rubber baby.

Crazy, dude. There's another one, too. And like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy.

What is it like doing a film like that where you're playing an actual human being? Is that. Is that different than, like, a written character that has no physical body, that you. You can kind of become who you think the words represent.

Yeah.

But when you're playing a guy like Chris Kyle, you're playing a human.

Yeah.

And you're trying to figure out a way to make it as realistic as possible. But you're acting like, what is that like?

I mean, the thing that just popped my head is the pressure is. Is it's like night and day. Because there are people that you have to serve, you know, especially with Chris Kyle, we started making that movie. He was alive. He got killed. While we were. He was still negotiating with Warner Brothers, I think we just closed his deal. And then he was murdered on February 2, I believe. And it was just like, whoa. But, in fact, we were like, now we really gotta make this movie. And then Clint and I flew to Midlothian, Texas, and met with his family and his widow and his parents, and then the kids and I Had played. I did the Alpha Man. I did it as a play and my thesis in grad school and then I did it at Williamstown and then I actually did it in New York and London. So. And that. And even though it's a long time ago, that was the first time I felt that responsibility because I actually love that guy, Joseph Merrick. And I did. And I felt that responsibility to him. So I had done something like that before, but this was the first, this was the next time.

It was massive, Joe. But I think that. That it's like you're always looking for what's the fuel that's going to allow me to work as hard as I can. And. And the fuel when you're playing a real person is like there's like four extra canisters or like vats of firepower for you to work hard because you just, you know, you're looking across at the eyes of somebody saying, I'm going to serve your son or your husband or your father. It's a major responsibility.

Even more major because he's now. He's deceased.

Yeah, it was, it was. It was mind blowing, but it terrified me. And Also, like, I'm £185 at that point from Northeast Philadelphia. This guy's from Midlothian, Texas. Seal Team 3. You know, it's like how. And the way Clint works, the way we did work, you know, Kevin Lace, who was a SEAL Team 3 with Chris, was in the movie, played Dauber. Jacob Schick, who's one tribe, which is what I'm wearing. He was a Marine that. Did you ever see American Sniper?

Yes.

Yeah. There's that scene where he goes to the hospital and there's all the guys that have been wounded. Jacob Schick is one of them. You know, so there's real guys. It's all real. So I step in, you know, I've got to. I'm gonna die unless I believe I'm Chris.

Right?

Like, so I have to do whatever I can so that I believe I'm Chris. If I believe I'm Chris, then I have a shot at everybody else potentially going along with this illusion. I just have to. I have to be absolutely fearless when I walked on set. So I just. It just made me work so hard that I'd never worked hard, that if it's a created character, you know, it's different, but it comes with a different set of challenges, you know, depends. It just depends on what it is. But I do know. And then with Leonard Bernstein, I did the same thing. Huge responsibility, like, massive, that I felt to his kids, to people that loved him. But mainly his kids, all three. His son has passed away since, but his three kids are like, okay. You know, they're like, handing you. It's like. Like, if someone went to your daughter in 12 years and said, here's this movie about your father. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah.

You know, and this guy's sitting across and be like, okay, I'm gonna play your father. That's just a whole other thing. Because the truth is, like, if it's good, it's gonna last a long time, and it's gonna be a thing that marks their journey. So I'm a part of whatever little part of Chris's journey. So you give somebody, you the faith that whoever has the power to give to that artist is just, you know, so it just made me work, you know, like, you just. You just don't stop working to get to the point where you believe you're him or you believe that he's a part of you. Something's working.

Did you meet Chris?

Kyle never. Just talked to him on the phone once.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

So what did you, like. What did you train?

Oh, yeah.

Like, what did you do to try to, like.

Yeah, well, here's. It's interesting, right? It's like, well, I couldn't do anything that would ever achieve what he achieved, but it's like, what can I do to look like a master, right? So there's three weapons. 300 and.38 Lapua, the.50 cal, the rifle. It's like, what can I do? How much time do I have? I think I had, like, six months also. Luckily, we're the same shoe size, same age. He has a hole in his ear. I do you find things that, like, you know, same height. I was like, oh, this is great. And then I just like. But he's 238 pounds, so the first thing was 6,000 calories a day. Found a trainer and.

6,000.

Yeah, 6,000 calories. First I did it with real food, and that was a big mistake because I couldn't get up. I remember the first week I did it, had an incredible chef, and then I couldn't get up. Like, I couldn't move. Like, I couldn't move my stomach. So then I think we split, like, half of it into protein shakes, but it was still £6,000.

When you say you couldn't get up.

Like, what do you mean? My stomach wasn't able to process that much food. Yeah, whatever. Whatever happened, I could just getting blocked. Getting blocked. Like major pain. Like I was giving birth or something. What I would imagine. So then we change it and it would be like huge meal shake. Huge meal shake. Worked out twice a day fight. I had three rest days, no cardio. It was all about strength training. And it was all focused around deadlifting.

Oh, okay.

And it was guy Jason Walls, who I worked with. And. And I did that. Yes. It would be like Monday to Monday, 5:30am and then a 4:30pm or like 3:30 Monday, Tuesday rest Wednesday, Thursday, Friday rest Saturday, Sunday and did that. And I got up to 238 pounds. And a lot of it was like. Because I was thinking about him, his neck and he might. So I came like I would do all these, all the neck stuff and it was his shoulders. Like I just wanted. So you could shoot over. And it's like, you know, which we did all the time in the movie where the guys just, you know. Chris.

Yeah. NFL playoffs. Let's go. DraftKings Sportsbook, an official sports betting partner of the NFL makes every moment feel bigger. A running back cuts through the line. A strip sack flips the field. A tight end hauls in. The kind of touchdown grab you'll talk about for years. Postseason games shift Fast, and with DraftKings live betting options, you can stay right in the moment. Plus, DraftKings has your back with early exit protection. If the player in your eligible NFL prop bet goes down at any point in the first half, you still get paid in cash. New customers bet just $5, and if the bet wins, you get 300 in bonus bets instantly. DraftKings Sportsbook Every drive, every play, every moment. Download the DraftKings Sportsbook app now and use the code Rogan. That's code rogan to turn five bucks into 300 in bonus bets. If your bet wins in partnership with DraftKings, the Crown is yours. Gambling problem. Call 1-800-GAMBLER in New York, call 877-8-HOPE&Y or text hopeny 467-369. In Connecticut, call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org on behalf of Boothill Casino and Resort in Kansas.

Pass through of per wager tax may.

Apply in Illinois 21 and over. Age and eligibility varies by jurisdiction. Boyd In Ontario, restrictions apply. Bet must win to receive bonus bets which expire in seven days. Minimum odds required. For additional terms and responsible gaming resources, see DKNG Co Audio Limited time offering. How much weight did you gain?

I went from 185 to 238.

Whoa.

Yeah. And all naturally because cancer's in my family. I've had skin cancer. And, like, I'm terrified of anything, so I was like, not gonna do that. So, you know, you take creatine or anything to creatine? Yeah. Which, by the way, I just started again, like, three months ago. Oh, it's amazing, dude. I'm on this push up thread with a bunch of dads at my school, and we do 100 push ups a day. And if we don't, you have to pay $10 into a pool. And then when we get to 800, we go to Chinatown. I'll have a meal with the money. And then I started taking creatine like, two and a half months ago, and we just upped it to 150. I was like, this is because I could only do. And we'd like YouTube the perfect push up, which I didn't know, which is like a whole other world. And then now it's. It's. I mean, creatine is incredible.

It's incredible for your brain.

I know. I've heard you say that. Like, I can't tell that because I also take Zins all the time. So it's like I don't know what's doing it.

Yeah, me too. I do the same thing.

But yeah. Where was I on the Chris thing?

You were talking about gaining weight.

Oh, yeah. So then I worked with 38 and I worked with the guy who. So I was doing that in conjunction with learning about sniping and working with Kevin Lace's guy, Dawber. We would go up to the Disney ranch and work with like 600 yard head targets prone that I would just do all the time. And then once we cast the rest of the team, we did all this stuff, but really, Kevin Lace, this guy Dawber was the guy because he was there. And he was there through the whole shooting just so everything would be real. And we just drilled it. We became a group. Like, you know, we did the work, but it wasn't so much about, like, I was like, I have this amount of time doing, like, SEAL boot camp will do nothing for me. Like, that that'll just give me the brain. Like, how hard this is and will I be broken? I've done this. Not that I couldn't have. Not maybe I would have been broken, but I felt like I do understand that. Like, I've been through certain things where, like, I understand what it's like to push myself to be on my breaking point and what that looks like and feels like.

What I don't know is when I'm looking at a target and I have to factor in that, you know, the curve of the earth, you know, like, that's the stuff I want to learn. Yeah. So that's where I focus was those three weapons, you know, live rounds, gaining the weight. So I felt like I was.

Here we go. We're back.

That's like all of a sudden, you're like, oh, you didn't take the drug? No, I'm not on it. And then. And then. So it was those two things in conjunction.

The curve of the earth is nuts.

Yeah.

Think about that.

It's crazy.

Long distance, the fact that these guys.

Stayed up 24 hours, would pee in there, you know, never get up to pee. Just pee right there, right in the room, you know, I mean, I said no. And then, by the way, it's a human being. I mean, it's just. Yeah, forget it. And then just working with this guy, Tim Monica, on, like, his voice. To me, it's all. The voice is everything. It's all about the voice and, like, where he's from. And Chris was interesting because his accent started to change, you know, because he. Once he got out and then he did that, he did a couple of shows. You know, he wrote that book, which is how I came across, and then gave it to Clint. So he had an interesting accent that kind of changed a little bit. But, yeah, just the voice. Just hitting the voice. I would work this guy five days a week, you know, and I had tons of stuff. I had so much information that Taya Kyle had been so generous to give me so many home videos, you know, correspondence. You know, I used to work out to his, which I just did the other day.

Hadn't. It's so funny. We're talking about this. I literally just did it two days ago. Worked out to his playlist, both of his workout playlists.

Oh, wow.

And I blew up two huge posters. And one was him just like this and one with his gun. And I would do that and look at him every morning. It was just like this beautiful ritual that I felt like I was with him every day.

How long did you take to prepare?

I'd have to look back. I think I did it fast, but I think we had about six months or five months, but, like, you know, full on. That's it. Nothing else. I didn't have a kid back then. It was like. That was it.

Yeah, yeah, that's. There's. There's something very unique about someone doing a film about an actual Person. Yeah, like a great actor doing, like, De Niro when he played Jake LaMotta. Yeah, Raging Bull, of course. Like that. That was one of the first. Like, he became a different person.

Yeah. Yeah. You have to. Yeah, you have to. If there's like a merging of you and that whatever, that idea, the soul, whatever of the person, it sounds so hokey. You know, I get it. But if you ask me what my memory is of. Of making a sniper, like, memory, like, on. In scenes. It's not that. Like, I was acting. It's just. That's not my memory.

What is the memory of?

Like, okay, now we're gonna do this. And it's like me as him doing it. Wow. You know, that's. That.

Was that a mind when you stop when. Like, the movie.

Well, the good thing is you do a Clint who takes the piss out of everything.

Oh, does he?

So, yeah, so we would go to dinner at night and. And I learned from Christian Bale in American Hustle. Like, he just stayed in because I didn't understand this. Stay in the character all the time. You know, you hear these stories, but you don't know what the real is. Like, how does that work? You see a cell phone, do you, like, lose your mind? Like, how do you. What is it? How do you do it? And it's like, oh, I overthought it. Bale would just. He was played this character that's from New York in American Hustle. And I go in there. The first day I met him, he was. His accent and the rest of the movie, even, like, on weekends, it was him, Christian. And we would talk about stuff and as kid, but he would just speak in that voice. And I was like, oh, it's that simple. Like, it's not some big thing. Like, once you get the voice. That is weird, you know, But I took it. I mean, and it's wonderful because then you feel like you're not acting and you're in the voice, and I do it all. Like, so.

So I would be in that voice of Chris for the whole movie. And then we would go to, like, a restaurant, and we were, like, up in Lancaster shooting or something. And Clint would then make fun of me in my accent as Chris and order a steak. And it was just. It was. It was great. Yeah.

He's fucking sabotaging your performance. He's making you self conscious. That's crazy.

It was awesome.

That's crazy. I always wondered what it's like to be around someone who's, like, method, but.

I don't know, that's. I wouldn't. You know, method is also a term that, you know.

What does it mean?

Well, the method. Well, what happened. It started in Russia, right. And then, you know, that book on acting that I should know, you know, what's his name? He came and then the group theater started, and it was like, you know, and all these people then disbanded. And there's Harry Meisner and there's. Yeah, Stanislavski. Exactly. And there was this other guy, Bok Tangoff, that also talked about that every rehearsal. It's very interesting. And I read all this in grad school. And then the group theater came in. And then Elia Kazan was a huge part of it becoming popular because you had this guy that was sweeping floors at the Actor's Studio and then started directing plays. And then all of a sudden, he's a huge movie director and he's putting Marlon Brando, who's part of the Actor Studio, starring in his movies, you know, and he's doing. And so it all just sort of erupted. But then it branched out. And so there's people that are dogmatic about it, about, it's only using your, you know, your substituting. So if I'm doing a scene with you, like, you aren't you. You're my brother, you know.

Right.

But it's evolved into. It's like what works for you to me. It's like you use your own experience plus your imagination, you know. But that's. That's the sort. That's the, you know, sort of a very layman's 52nd, you know, telling of what the origin of the Method is. But I went to the Actors Studio, which is based in the Method. That's where I went to grad school.

Is it?

And it's very valuable because I didn't know shit before that. I mean, I did a couple of plays at Georgetown. I didn't know anything. I mean, I just loved acting, but I didn't do anything about it. I was terrified as a kid. Like, we did this thing in high school where we had to as seniors. We would put on our show where we would make fun of our teachers. And I, like, I could do my Latin teacher, Mr. Burke. I was like. And I actually sang in it. We sang. And I was like. But I was terrified, Joe. For the whole year. Sleepless nights for a year leading up to it. That's how scared I was in public. I remember doing, like, a fifth grade presentation with the poster boards about Locke and Hobbs and the poster shaking so hard because I was Because I was so nervous. I was like, how am I going to. What's this fear thing?

Isn't that weird?

I know, but then in college, I did a couple of plays, but I still didn't know what I was doing. But I loved it. And I was like, little stuff. I was like Azalon, the server in Dangerous Liaisons. But I still remember, like, I closed the door in the rhythm, rhythmic way and people laughed. And I remember I was like, ooh, this feels good. And then. And then. So I applied to grad school there. And then all of a sudden, it was like I got a huge foundation of, like, what I could do. You know, that your insecurities are actually your attributes, your fears or stuff. That, you know, all this thing that you've. You're a sensitive kid. This is all good stuff. And I never felt that way before about any of that. And I had this teacher, Elizabeth Kemp, who was incredible, who then passed away in my house. Years later, she got sick. Yeah, it's crazy.

Passed away in your house?

Yeah, in Venice, California. She was sick, so we put her hospice there. But she was incredible. And she did this basic technique class, and it was the first. First time ever because I didn't, you know, grow up therapy or. And none of that was even, you know, in the vicinity of talking about your feelings. You know, I loved my dad, but I grew up in, you know, the 80s in Northeast Philadelphia with an Irish Italian upbringing that wasn't part of the deal. And. And then all of a sudden, in grad school with other guys and women, and we're like, laying down, and she wants us to go through an experience of loss and betrayal when we were children, and it's like, what the fuck? And actually, I could take all that stuff I've been ashamed of and I could use it and bring it into art. I don't know. It really clicked with me in a huge way. So. And I use it even to this day. All the movies I do, I always get the actors together and do, like a workshop for a week that's based on dreams that she also taught me.

And I just find it invaluable. Any way you can just. How can I just get to a place where we're just talking to each other and I don't. You know, and that all this stuff. I feel it's okay.

Right? Right.

Yeah.

When you're doing a guy like Chris, it must also be kind of easier to keep the accent than to try to re establish it right before every scene.

You just said it It's a logical thing.

Yeah, that's it.

It's a logical thing. The idea of me talking with an accent or even thinking that it's an accent because you don't think about it anymore. The whole point is, I'm not doing an act. If I'm doing a scene with you and I'm thinking about how I'm talking, it's over, it's a wrap. It's not real. But if I'm just talking to you and it happens to be the voice that I've been working on for however long time, then we're in it, we got a shot. And if I'm stopping it, there's no way I'm not thinking about. So, yes, Joe, that is the reason.

You know what's a really underappreciated talent is voice actors who do audiobooks. I was watching a video of this guy because I never knew how they did it, and I kind of assumed that whenever they had to change accents, they probably had a pause where they were. But there's a. There's a video of a guy doing the voiceover for Lord of the Rings, the Lord of the Rings audiobook. And he goes into Smeagol. He goes into the Gollum character while he's doing narration. There's no break. He just smoothly transitions into Smith. It's fucking incredible. It is absolutely masterful and completely underappreciated.

Yeah, I agree with you.

Because if you watch this guy do it, I don't know the gentleman's name, who's the voiceover actor, but I love audiobooks. This. That guy. Listen to this guy.

Oh, it's Andy Serkis holding a debate.

With some other thought that used the same voice but made it squeak and hiss. A pale light and a green light alternated in his eyes as he spoke. Smear premised.

Said the first thought.

Yes, yes, my precious, came the answer. Amazing. Amazing. Like that. What a master.

And you're talking about a master actor.

Yes.

Yeah. You know, because he's been in a lot of movies he's directed. He directed that great movie that was like Jungle Book, a version of Jungle Book that Christian Bale actually played the panther, I believe. He's incredible. And I got to meet him. He's like, this guy's like a one off generational talent. Yeah. He's insane.

You have to be to be that good at voiceover.

Yeah. And he's just a great actor.

Yeah, you have to be.

Yeah, yeah, I agree. And my mother watches this. She'll kill me that I'M saying, my mother watches. First of all, she loves Turkish soap opera, so. She watches Turkish?

Turkish?

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Why them specifically?

I don't know. She just. She graduated from Hallmark into Turkish, And. And then she's evolved even further. She just watches the screenshot where there's two people AI images, and it's just a person telling a story. And I Often, I'll come down making breakfast, because when she stays with me in New York, she has the room down there, and I'll be like, making my daughter breakfast. And I could hear it, or I'll go to the bathroom, which is right next to her. I was like, wow, these guys, these voice. I mean, the guy's carrying it all. It's just an image. And she'll watch it for hours. And I'm like, what's gonna happen? Is he gonna make that? Is the firm gonna hire him? Is she gonna. Did she see the note? Like, he's. It's amazing. I was like, yeah, it's really an art form.

Turkish.

Yeah. I remember the first time I came down, I was like, oh, no. What happened? Because I'm just hearing. I'm like, what happened? And I walk in and I'm like, mom, what are you. What are you watching? He's like, oh, no. This guy's the best actor in the world, this guy. And so she just reads the subtitles. She did it for, like. She's watched. It's called.

Oh.

If you look up, he's. What's it called? Circle. Is it Dove, Bird, Bird, something. How could I forget it? Oh, baby.

Is that it? Early bird, early bird.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Explain this.

So it's a soap. It's a soap opera. There's, like, 360 episodes. She's watched them all, like, five, four times. And she'll come in. She'll, like, do a marathon session. Come in to make some food. She's like, this guy. Just the way he moves. This guy's the best actor. That's him. That's him. Yeah, that's him.

Is it speaking in Turkish?

Oh, yeah.

Some of this.

This looks like. Yeah, that's it. Yeah, there he is. Yeah, there he is.

And so she likes this. And she does the voiceover. She reads the.

No. So that's. That's. That was the middle stage. Now she's graduated to. It's different now, where she just watches two AI images and it's a story. But she did this for a good, like, eight years. But all through Covid.

Why was she into this?

I don't know. She must have come across it one day on somewhere, and then that was it.

She just got hooked.

Oh. I mean, hooked isn't even the word. Yeah. By the way, it's pretty good. Yeah. Yeah.

You watch it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's great. And he had the woman in it. It's great, too.

Yeah. Do you consume a lot of films? Do you watch.

I watch a lot of everything.

Yeah.

I love television films. And then, you know, like, eight months ago, I. I know I'm late to the game. Came across podcasts only eight months ago? Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting, isn't it? Yeah.

Yeah. What. What made you get into that?

I can't remember, but it was your podcast, and I'm trying to think what it was. And then. And then it was like, oh, and then I came. And then, you know, once you watch something on your phone, it, like, suggests other things. And. And then you had two guys on that I thought were really interesting. And then they do a trigon. Trigonometry?

Yeah, trigonometry.

And then I find that very fascinating.

Oh, they're great.

Yeah. Great. And so that's how it just started. So now it's like a huge part of. Like, I have this whole little thing. Like. Like, often I'll go to bed and my daughter's listening to your voice, but I do put on headphones sometimes because I love, like, just at the end of the day, listening. Listening or watching. I'll put it on the side table. Yeah, it's very. Podcasts are incredible. It's very soothing. Very soothing.

That's interesting. I hardly ever listen to them anymore, but I love.

I love tv. I love it. Yeah. I take in a lot of content.

Have you watched the Beast in Me on Netflix? I did Claire Danes.

Oh, dude.

Holy shit. Dude.

Dude. And that guy, Kerry Russell's husband, Matthew Reese.

Dude, the bad guy.

Yeah. Yeah.

How fucking good is that guy?

So I did a movie with him years ago called Burnt about a chef, and we had never met. And there's a scene where my character, he was trying to get sober, and he went off the wagon. And he goes into this guy, their old nemesis. They were Nemesis. With each other, his restaurant, after hours. And it was like a pretty dark scene that we never met, me and this guy, this actor, right before we shot. And I come in, and then I don't know what was. I was pretty. It was. I was pretty locked in. And there's one scene which wasn't really scripted, and I took, you know, those Sous vide bags. And I put it over my head to try to. Cause he's trying to kill himself. Which, by the way, I was like, oh, this. This could work if I don't get help. Those things are strong and tight. And then we had this experience, Joe, where then he was ripping it off me, trying for me not to kill myself. And I don't know him that well, but we had. That's the thing about, like, making art together. Like, we had that it'll never.

Every time I see him, I've seen him maybe six times at, like, certain things or something. I always feel like we're bonded forever just based on this one experience that we had. He's an incredible actor. He's just. And the end of that show. Him and the end of that show. Oh, God. Dude. Characteristics. And Claire Danes is like, off the chart. Did you see that show she did with Jesse Eisenberg? There's. There's another series she did.

Homeland.

No, no, no. It was like, Fleischman that. Something with Fleischman is in trouble. Yeah, Fleischman. There's this. No, yeah, she's incredible in that, too. There's a scene where she's basically having a mental breakdown. And you're watching. You're like, this. This can't be acting. Yeah.

In trouble. Yeah, it's on fx. I never even heard of this. Yeah, it's really good.

Yeah, I enjoyed it, but. And I enjoyed her at the end. There's one scene that, like, really rocked me where I just fully. I mean, that's just like. I just saw this movie, Hamnet. I don't know if you guys saw that or not. No, that's what I love about movie. So Jesse Buckley in this movie, it's just basically playing like, the most difficult role ever. The loss and all that stuff. And I fully. Joe, for full. I'm watching and sitting there fully believing that this person is going through this. Do you know what I mean? Like, when you do that. When I believe that you're actually going through it, I mean, that's it. That's. And like, that. Her performance in that movie is so.

She's so good. Dude, dude, dude.

Are you talking about Claire Danes or Jesse Buckley?

Jesse. No. Well, Claire Danes.

Yeah.

Claire Danes and Jesse.

Yeah, they're both amazing.

Claire Danes is so good in the Beast in Me. There's moments where, like, her fucking lips are trembling.

No, she's touched.

She's eyes are.

Darn right, she's touched. Yes, no question. Yeah, no question. Yeah.

She locks in. In this very crazy way. She was creating Homeland too.

Yeah. I never saw Homeland. Oh, it's great.

It's really good. She just locks in. She locks in in this very strange way where you. 100 believer.

Yeah.

Like believe it. Behind the eyes.

The greatest.

Yeah.

I mean that's what. That's the heroine for me in this industry. It's like when you're around and you're creating this thing and it's just. And all of a sudden it's like, whoa.

Yeah, yeah.

Holy shit, it's happening.

But it's like I had this conversation with Ethan Hawke. I was. Because I was asking him about.

But I felt like that with Will just real quick, you know that vampire scene. That's because I was, I was operating it. Right. I don't know how you felt watching it.

The scene when he was on stage.

At the very end.

Yes, yes, yes.

I was like. I fully believed it.

Yes.

And those people. And then when I went to the audience and they're just like, like.

Right.

They know what the going on.

Right, right.

Like, that was one of those moments I had on this movie where I was like, oh, my man is locked. Yeah, the.

Oh, 100. Yeah, 100. It was very uncomfortable.

You felt that? Yeah.

Yes. Yeah, definitely. I was. I have this conversation with Ethan Hawke about that. I go, what is happening when I believe someone? Like I was talking about the scene in that movie with him and Julia Roberts. The. About the.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Of course.

There's. There's a scene with him and Kevin Bacon.

Yeah. When they go to the house. And also there's three guys in that scene. Oh my God, he's amazing. Yeah. From moonlight. And he's been in tons of stuff. Green Book. I know him.

Yeah. Jamie will pull it up. I can't. I'll his name up if I pronounce it. What is it? Oh, a Marshall Ali. That's it. Yes, I believe it. I know that's Kevin Bacon. I know that's Ethan Hall. I believe he's going to shoot him.

Yeah, no question.

I believe it.

Yeah.

Like, I go, what is that? Like what is going on? I go. Cuz is it. It's almost like a form of hypnosis.

Yes.

And he's like, yes.

Yeah, that's it.

You have to actually be there. You actually. You have to actually be there. Like. Yeah, you're saying the lines you're supposed to say. But what's happening is like you really are there. You really believe it. And if you don't believe it, the audience doesn't believe it. And we've all been there before. Like, one time I ate an edible, and I went to go see one of those Marvel movies, and in the middle, it was really high, Right. And while I was watching the movie, like, this guy's acting, you know, it's just like, of course. It just made, you know, really sensitive and tuned in.

I get angry because I'm like, I want to. I want to go on the ride. I'm like, the best. Best watcher. Because I want. I want. When that thing starts. Yeah. I want to go on the ride.

I want to go on the ride.

Yes.

Like. Like him and Denzel in Training Day. Yeah, like that. There's a few scenes where you're like, okay, this is really.

Oh, yeah. Especially in the car.

Yes. Yeah, that's the one.

Oh, yeah.

This is really happening. Like, this is real. Yeah.

Hawk's so good in that movie.

Yeah, he's. He's great.

Yeah, he's great and everything, but he's sick in that movie.

But he's also. When you talk to him, you realize, okay, this is an actual artist.

Yeah. He's a unique dude.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's not a guy who's, like, trying to be a movie star.

No.

He's an artist that does movies.

Yeah. But I don't know how many people. I don't know. It's like how many comedians who just want to be famous are gonna. I don't even know how you could do. You have to love it, Right. It's just too hard. That's not enough of a fuel. It's not that. That's just not enough fuel.

It won't take you far.

It's just not a fuel to keep doing it.

Right.

Because if you don't love it, I think you would find it monotonous and maybe boring and tedious and inconsequential.

You're going on a road trip with an eighth of a tank of gas. You're not gonna make it.

You're not gonna make stomping on the.

Gas and try to pull out of the parking lot. But it's not that. Yeah, it's a long drive.

And my experience in the 26 years I've been in this is like, most of the people, if not all that I've worked with, they love it. Yes, they love it.

They have to.

Otherwise. Yeah.

If you want to be great at something, you have to love it.

Yeah.

I can't. I can't imagine. Yeah.

Because it's not even that you want. Yes. You want to be great at it. But you just love doing it.

Right. That's it, right? And the love is how it becomes great.

And then the fear is when you get famous or people get popular early, that can be confusing because you start to have like. I have to maintain a certain. You start getting careful. Like I was thinking about when you said, like, what is that thing? When it just. It's hypnosis. The key to that is willing to fail. That's what I learned as an actor is like, oh, yeah, just don't take it too seriously. Here we go. We're rolling the camera.

We can.

Let's just. Here, let's see what happens. I'm gonna go out on a limb. Maybe it won't work, but like, yeah, be willing to like completely fail. And the minute you do that, it's like, oh. And all of a sudden there's this reservoir of space in your head and your soul to actually create even more of an imaginary circumstances. Now if you haven't done your work, you're fucked anyway. But like, but once you're there, it's like, once you're like, oh, yeah, everybody, we could just fail. Let's just. Let's just fail.

How do you.

Does that make sense?

100 makes sense. It makes sense because the only way you're gonna really find out what it is is to like, try it all kinds of ways. Yeah, that we. I was just having the conversation. You know Brian Cowan, our mutual friend. He, he texted me last night. He's like, I got a new bit and I just ate a dick. I have to go up on stage with it tonight. It's terrible. He goes, but I know there's something in there. And we were, we were talking on the phone right before the show. He's like, dude, my new is bombed it a dick last night. I don't know what to do, but I know there's something there. It's like, you've got to be willing to bomb. You got to be willing to eat a dick.

If you don't. I don't know how. Yeah, I don't know any. If you're careful, you're. It's. You're. It's over.

You can't.

Careful is death.

I talked to Chris Rock once and he told me that that bit that he did, that was one of his all time classic bits. I love black people. I hate N word.

Right, Right.

He goes that bit bombed for like a year, right? He couldn't get. Couldn't get it to work. He's like, I Know there's something in there, but I have to find it.

Yeah.

It took a fucking year. And think about. We're talking about a year of going up at the store, going up at the Improv, going here, going to the Laugh Factory, going here, going there, pulling your hair out, trying to figure it out. A year, man. And when you're Chris Rock, you're already Chris Rock. And you. For. You know, you could talk about getting your dick sucked. You talk about something, people laugh, and you're like, I think there's something here. I gotta grind this thing down until I get an edge to it. And it took him a year.

Yeah.

Like, you have to be willing to.

Around and to suffer through all that and enjoy the suffering. You start to, like, once you do it enough, fail enough in front of people, it starts to be easier.

Yeah. And then you come out on the other end, you're like, yeah, and I'm still alive.

I'm still alive.

Yeah.

This wasn't as big as I thought.

No. And then you have to do it again. That's. And then you put out a special. And then once you put out a special, you start from scratch. And then you're terrified because now you're a famous comedian with no material or terrible material, and you have to figure out a way to make it good.

And that plays into what I was talking about. Like, when you have. When you've achieved something, and then there's that pressure you put on yourself that it has to be that good or better.

Right.

And then all of a sudden, you're in a different game than. Than just, like, the doing.

I think that play it safe game is the scariest game.

Or. Yeah. Or somehow think that it's. It's somehow that controllable. Because really, all this stuff we're talking about, it's really kind of out of our control, you know, when it's working, I don't feel in control at all.

Right. You feel like a passenger.

Yeah. And that's. By the way, that's the high. There's nothing fun about controlling everything. There's no fun in that. But when you're like, whoa, wait a second, what's happening?

Like, the zone is a passenger.

Yeah.

It's like being an observer of something.

Sports, too. I think it works in every field. It's like. They talk about it, you know, it's like, yeah, that's it. Oh, yeah, that's it. And it just takes a ton. A year of doing the thing, you know? Because there are moments that I can even think of where. Because you do think that's okay. It doesn't matter. There are a couple where, like, actually, if this moment doesn't work out, like, it may not be over, but you're definitely gonna go down along the ladder.

Yeah.

You know, and it's like, okay. And that's that pressure, you know? Yeah. You gotta love it.

How do you pick a project? Like, how do you decide what you want to do? And how much time do you spend deliberating on it? Because you're in a unique position where you can do a lot of things.

Yeah.

You can kind of do whatever you want. So it's like, what gets your juices going. Like, how do you decide what to do?

It's all about something igniting in me that, like, for example, when I was little, I thought, like. I always obsessed with Vietnam. I was obsessed as a kid. Vietnam, the war in Vietnam. And my math teacher was recon in Vietnam, Bill Calm. And I was, like, obsessed with this guy. And he was fascinating. Fascinating. He was a pole vaulter. And that was his cue for the chalkboard was one of his broken pole vault sticks.

Oh, wow.

And he would always. And he always wore sweatpants, and he would lean against the thing, so all day long, half of his sweatpants would be full of chalk. And he would always smoke cigarettes on the athletic field and stand on the bench. And so he'd always be perched there. And like, my dad, he would never put out his butts. He would always save them. So he always smelled like. Like tobacco. His hands. And I. And then my. This other guy came. His father came and talked about this book, Guns up, which is an incredible book about machine gunner in Vietnam. So. And then I asked my dad if I could go to the military academy. Like, I would do something. And then, like, you know, Thin Red Line Destroyed Me, the Terrence Malick movie in the Apocalypse Now, I was, like, obsessed with and all these films. And so I always wanted to do something about playing. I always felt like I had a love enough and an interest enough that playing a soldier would be something that I felt like I had a reservoir. So that led me to Chris, that was. That it's all specific things.

It was just Joseph Merrick, you know, the alpha man. Like, when I was. I had no money and I took it. I got a one Tower Air, went to London and, like, tracked his steps at Hospital Road and where he went out. Just because I was obsessed with this guy, Joseph Merrick, the Elephant Man. And then it wound up, you know, then making it, you know, Doing the play at Broadway where they originated, you know, and then Star Is Born was really about. I just love. I always wanted to direct. I don't think I dreamt that big, but I really realized what I loved about the process of the industry I'm in is the making of it. I never felt like I fit in just acting. I never felt like. I thought, like, at the first, like. Like, you, like. I went to LA with a job. Like, I went to grad school in New York. I thought I'd just be a theater actor if I was lucky, if I could make a living as an actor, I. This is a home run. My dad was terrified, you know, because he came from North Philadelphia.

Only guy to come out of the neighborhood, kind of. There were a couple other guys, but then he became a stockbroker. And then his son's gonna do acting and be 70 grand in debt in grad school, you know, Fannie Mae, thank God. But, like, you know, and I didn't know I was gonna pay it off and. But that said I. We. We grew up, like, upper middle class, but still, I was like, I'm paying for grad school. Took a loan out. And then. So he was terrified. And then I got a job on this show, Alias, that brought me to la. But the minute I got there, I didn't know anything about Check the Gate. I didn't. Nothing. You know what I mean? I knew nothing. I just loved movies. And so I was obsessed, Joe. Obsessed. I would go in the editing room and I found LA very hard. When I was. When I went there, I got very depressed. I was like, this is high school all over again. Me, too.

That's exactly how I was.

I was like, what? I mean, I could. I went to grad school. I'm in New York City. There's guys that I could relate to and talk about movies. I was in heaven. Then I get this job that I think is going to be the Holy Grail. And I'm miserable living in the first floor of this woman's house. Just like, it was crazy. I was like. I didn't know I could be this depressed. I mean, depressed. Like, I need water. And, like, the idea of going to the Rite Aid on. On Sunset and Fairfax was, like, too much.

Yeah.

And, yeah, that was rough.

It's depressing. Yeah. When you first go, especially when you're.

In that weird environment and no one just. No. And I was on a show that was awesome and everybody's exploding and, like, no one. It was like, who. Who's this guy? So that not only that, I'm there and everybody's like, you know, I'm just like, you know, a ghost.

Right, right.

So there's that. So your insecurity is just, you know, exempt, is just, you know, astronomical.

It was for me. It was also one of the first times that I ever moved somewhere where I didn't know anyone.

Me, too. I knew nobody. J.J. abrams hired me, and. And then Berkey, this guy was the only guy that I knew that he introduced me to. And then I met Jennifer Garner was like, the second person I met. And then. Yeah, I didn't know anybody.

It's weird.

Yeah.

I remember I was on the set of the show Brian Klugman.

I didn't know that guy who's, like, one of my best friends. You know Brian Klugman?

No, I know who he is, though.

Yeah. He's. We grew up since we were, like, nine.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

I was on the set of this show, and a girl gave me a hug, and I realized no one had touched me in weeks. And the hug she gave me, I was like, oh. It was like my battery got recharged. Like, I didn't realize I needed a hug. You know, people say, do you need a hug? Like, I never thought, like, nobody needs a hug, right? No, I fucking needed a hug.

I was very similar.

She's like, give me a hug. She hugged me. I was like, oh, thank you.

Yeah.

I felt so good. It's. It's weird. It's a weird feeling.

It's a. It's a hell of a place to go. Oh, it is. Like, wow.

Yeah.

Yeah. I had a hard time.

Well, the whole environment of LA is so strange because you have the primary industry. If it's not the primary industry, it's most certainly driving all. Under all other industries is a bunch of people trying to make it right. So it's a bunch of people with a hole in their soul they need to fill up with other people's attention. And they're coming there to try to get attention. They're coming there to try to make it. And the one thing that they have to do is audition. So you have to try to be accepted by someone so you'd be judged. You go in there and you get return. You get rejected over and over and over again, which just fuels the same, like, need that's inside you. It, like, makes it even worse. And everybody's concentrating on this one thing, like, trying to get success. And then you realize, like, oh, my doctor wanted to be an actor. Oh, the Waiter's an actor. Like every. Everyone's trying to do this thing where you have to get chosen. So then people calculate how they behave and talk and what their political philosophy is and their life philosophies based on becoming.

Ingratiating themselves with casting directors and with executives, like, getting these people to like you. And then these people realize that, so they have, like, they. They're controlling this. The twigs that work the puppet strings. And it just becomes this very strange environment of a complete lack of any, like, real critical thinking and any real, like, embracing any alternative perspectives on things. Everyone is just trying to align their stars correctly so that they can make it.

I mean, that my experience was more. Because I went there with a job. Right?

Right.

And, you know, New York for me, I don't know, I went on 2,000 auditions. Like, I remember when I first booked a job with Sex and the City, I booked some commercials and extra work, which was great. But the first job I booked, I remember I was like, I was terrified because I got to the point where I was. I was a doorman at a hotel and I would audition, and that was a great life. And if I got a call back, it was great. But then when I had to do it, I remember literally, like, whoa, I have to do, like, Wait, wait, what?

I'm actually.

I just have to do it.

What was it? What was the first thing it was.

I played Jake, the downtown smoker in the Sexton City with Sarah Jessica Park. And I couldn't drive Standard, never learned how to drive standard. So they sent me to Odell. Odell's driving school. And all I thought about was, like, don't have her head hit the dashboard when we pull into the corner. And I still messed it up. And they had another guy do it. And then I just had to do this thing, you know when the camera's here and you go, you okay? You know, like, you're pulling in. Yeah, but I worked so hard on it. No, but la, for me, it was. I think it, for me at least, was the geography. Going from New York City, where, you know, you can go to Bar Six, which is on Sixth Avenue, no matter who you are, you go there, a couple friends, like, you just feel like you're in a cool place or a place that's vibrant. La. It's like, if I wasn't at work, I was in that. That first floor of the house or my car. Rental car.

Yes.

And that was it. And like. And. And the world, which I could feel because I was seeing posters everywhere and billboards which I had never been, except for driving to Atlantic City, you know, and seeing who was gonna, you know, gonna be, you know, as a residency. That it was really the stimulus, the stimuli of that city esthetically and how compartmentalized it is. So what I felt like, if you're not in, you're out. And I just remember thinking like, somebody somewhere in this town is having a ball right now and it's not me. Do you know what I mean? And then that just leads to, how can I cope? And not getting into bars, clubs, you know, and like girls not really looking at you, you know, and all that stuff. And all of a sudden it's like seventh grade and I'm 25 years old and it's like. And I should be happy because I paid by the end of this year. I'm gonna pay off my student loan, but I'm fucking miserable and what's wrong with me? You know? But to me, it was the geography of it. You know, New York City is so wonderful because no matter what you're thinking, like when I would do the Elephant Man, I would take the subway to 42nd Street.

And my preparation for the play was getting off the subway, going to the theater. Because the amount of thousands of people that are forcing me to be present. Yes. Was wonderful. It was like doing a 12 minute relaxation because you're just. It's life. And you're like, get through, you know, and then by the time you get to this theater, you're like, okay, you know, but la, it's like you're in your car and the thing you pull up to the studio, the thing you walk and, you know, and all of a sudden it's like, okay, here we go. And you're like, okay, hold on a second.

Yeah. That thing that New York has that LA doesn't have is all walks of life are all intertwined. You're walking down the street together. There's a billionaire and a homeless guy and a, you know, ne' er do well and an office worker and everyone's walking to where they go and they walk into restaurants and they get in cabs and they get on the subway and everybody intermingles. Where in la it's. You get in your car, you drive to a place and then you go to your house and you don't ever, like, walk around.

If some weird interaction happened on set or someone said something, you're like, oh, then you're just a home thinking about it.

Right?

Do you know what I mean? There's no, like, well, I went on and did this after that, you know. And I actually took up golf, which is crazy. And I would play at the Malibu. Had this public golf course. And I would say, I gotta do something because I'm an early morning. I wake up early. I've always had. So I'm up at like 5:30. And so I did like a 6:47 tee time with these two guys. And that was actually nice. I did that for six months and I would play. But like, you just try to find something that, you know, I just need to interact and do something else.

Something that makes you human? Yeah, yeah, yeah. For me.

But I have to say, like, I do love. Oh, interesting.

Yeah.

Michael Vartan, who was on Alias. Huge. Did you ever play pool with him?

No.

Oh, he was huge. He would go all the time.

No kidding.

Yeah, yeah, he would go all the time. He had that one place that had like, tons of. I'm sure, you know, it probably Hollywood Billiards, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hollywood Billiards was the spot.

Yeah, yeah.

It's in New York. That was a big thing for me too. It was like, almost hijacked my comedy career because I was doing. I was playing pool like eight hours a day. I was playing in tournaments. I was traveling around and going to tournaments. And when I came to la, that was like one of the few things that made me. That made sense to me, like. Oh, I get it. Pool players. I know pool players, right. Hang out with them. They're normal people.

That's a great asset you had there.

Having something like that. Martial arts is always like, huge. Some. Having something where you have something that you do. Because if I was only doing.

You'd lose your mind.

I'd go crazy.

And I went there and I fell in love with the movie making, getting back to my original part. And I would go. And so I'd ask J.J. abrams if I could sit in the editing rooms. So I would basically shoot my one scene a week, which was like, hey, how was your trip, Sydney? You know, I didn't have a big part, right. And then. But I would spend the rest of the day in the editing rooms. And then I would ask Ken Olin, who was so generous that one of the showrunners, if I could just. Just shadow him and just be around all the time. And I would take. And I would take everybody's dailies home. Back then it was in VHS tapes. It was Carl Lumley, Victor Garber, Ron Rifkin, all these great. Victor and Ron were from New York. These great. New York, New York actors that came out, and I would just watch their dailies and learn, you know, just learn. And. And that's when I was like, I love this. Like, I love this.

That's what I love. I love when people love things.

Yeah. And I do, man. Like, I can't get enough of it.

I am 100% fascinated with people that love what they do. I. I can watch people make furniture. There's a guy that I watch on YouTube who just makes desks and tables right out of, like. What is it called? Live. What is it called when they take it? When it has the actual outline of the wood? What is it called? They take slabs. It takes, like, slabs of walnut and makes these tables. And he narrates while he's building it and describes the process of. And how he's trying to precisely align all these joints and these. You know, he's like. He's got pegs and holes. Slide it into place. That's it. Live edge.

That's the other great thing about what I get to do. So you do a movie like a sniper, and you get to be with these people who have dedicated their lives to this thing. And you're watching them do it. Like in Maestro, I got to go with the London Symphony Orchestra. Each person, since they were four have been doing this. And they're all unicorns. Do you know what I mean? And stars born, all these musicians. It's like, even burn. I got to go to these restaurants and study under these people. I mean, that's the thing. That's like. That's the greatest thing in the world. Yeah, it's nuts. It's nuts. And, like, even this movie, the access I got to have to the cellar and all the stuff and all the people, it was like, I learned so much more than I ever knew.

But it expands you as a human.

Oh, no question.

You know, more about what it is to be a human. Like, oh, there's a human who just. Just plays the flute.

Yeah.

You know, we were talking in the green room last night about Andre 3000. Was that was the name? Yeah, I'm saying it right. Almost said 5,000, but that's wrong. Andre 3,000 from Outkast. He plays the flute now. That's all he does. He plays the flute. Like, a friend of mine ran into him in downtown, in Colorado. He said he was in. In Denver, just walking around with his flute, and no one was bothering him. And he's like, holy shit. He's just fucking playing the flute.

Yeah. That's a guy who loves what he does just.

I mean, apparently he made an entire album where he just plays the flute.

Yeah.

And he's just, like, not into doing anything else. Yeah. Just into, like, being an artist and playing the flute.

Yeah.

It's dope, right? Yeah, it's like, fuck, I wish I was that guy.

But you seem to be. I mean, you did, you know, hunting and billiards, and already you've got, like, two up on most people besides what you already do.

But I do things that are. That I think are gonna ex. Help me figure out who I am. And I think the only way you really figure out who you are is to do difficult things. Yeah. And when you're doing difficult things, you kind of learn about yourself. You learn about, oh, why do I have this desire to take a shortcut? Why don't I go with the law? Why don't I do it the right way? Like what. What it is? What is it about?

Oh, yeah.

Getting good at something.

I mean, I think me, at my base, I'm very lazy.

I think everybody is. I mean, it's a default setting.

Yeah. No question.

Default setting for humans. Goggins talks about it.

Yeah.

Like, Goggins talks about, like, one of the things about Goggins is he always talks about how when he was fat and lazy, like, he used to be fat and lazy. Now he's like, the most disciplined human that's ever lived, and he forced himself to become that. Yeah. But he's default. He goes, he goes. He goes. Even now, he goes. Sometimes I look at my shoes for like, a half hour before. Foot pills, motherfuckers on.

Yeah. I mean, I'll be doing something during the day, and I'm like, I can't wait till my daughter's in bed. And I'm upstairs and I'm just laying down on the couch, and I'm just. Whatever's on.

Yeah.

And that's my goal for the day. I'm like, what's going on here?

Sometimes that's good, though.

Yeah.

I. I view that as a reset. I think it's important I enjoy it and.

Reset. Yeah. I don't kill myself over it, but I do recognize that there is a feeling. But then I look at, you know, I look at this sort of landscape, I'm like, well, it's hard for me to. To categorize myself as lazy if I just look at the facts.

Yeah.

You know, but I do feel. And it's what you're saying, it's that default setting.

But I think with everybody, it's like, Normal for human beings to seek comfort because it's difficult to acquire, especially tribal societies. Back when we were just hunter and gatherers and just trying to figure out how to stay alive. Like, the idea of relaxation was impossible.

Yeah.

And if you could get no time. Oh, that's what I want. I want to stop chasing antelope, just fucking take a nap.

Or maybe they found a relaxed state in that. Because you. When you're doing those things, you know, for a long period of time. I feel like I am relaxed in that. But it just takes a lot of work.

Yeah.

You know, a lot of over and over. But the bet that the true high is when you're doing these things where it first started out and you were horrible at it. And then all of a sudden you're going out on a hunt or whatever, and you're like, I'm relaxed.

I'm never relaxed on a hunt. Well, I've never hunted, so I'll do that relaxing thing. I mean, it is a fulfilling.

I think, I mean, physically relaxed. Like, your body's not tense. Like, there's one thing I do know. You can't shoot a gun if you're tense.

Right.

Impossible to hit what you want.

Right.

That's the beautiful thing about shooting is, like, you know, on the exhale and stop, like all that stuff, I was like, oh, this is. I had no idea.

Right.

Because the first couple times, like, just. Just shoot it. See how you do well, just think.

About, like, the tiny movements that would deviate the path of the bullet over. You know, a lot of these guys are shooting a mile.

No, it's nuts. The first couple times with no. No training, all like, see, I mean, it wasn't even near the target. Yeah. You know, I was like, oh, yeah, this is a whole.

And all you're doing is this.

That's it.

Is squeezing a trigger. And how much is involved in that. Like the synchronization of the mind, the eyes, the breathing, but even the recoil.

I remember the first time I didn't have my. My boot was. I was like. Like my boot was up and not like that. And they didn't say anything, you know, and then the recoil through my shoulder down to that. I was like, oh, yeah, now I understand why you do that.

Yeah.

Is that it all just goes out, all those things. It's like, wow.

But I think through those things, you learn more about who you are. Through difficult things and getting better at difficult things. That's where you learn more about who you are. And you realize, like, oh, I can Kind of apply this mindset to everything.

And you see with your children.

Uh huh.

Oh yeah. My daughter who loves to draw, if she sees somebody who's drawing.

I have a daughter that loves to draw too.

She's amazing. So I bet if my daughter drew with your daughter, she would stop because she would see how good she is. And she gets so frustrated. This just happened the other day and you know, and she'll just rip up what she's doing, which is wonderful. I have it right here. So she. This, I saved this. I was like, don't rip it up. She did this yesterday and I was like, don't rip it up. I'm gonna make it my bookmark.

Ah, that's cool.

But I'm watch her process of like dealing with difficulty and it's like. And just trying to explain like it's, it's okay. Like, you know, and being frustrated is okay. But I could see myself and her and what everybody goes through. But isn't that awesome when you're watching your kid go through these things? Yeah, it's just the greatest thing in the world.

It's awesome watching people get obsessed with things and then progress it. Yeah.

Oh yeah. And when it's your own child, it's amazing. Yeah, it's amazing.

It is cool. Yeah.

Like cartwheel. Took her forever to learn it, but now she could do it. And I was like, you just keep at it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's learning through someone else's eyes that happens to be your child is one of the most magical things ever. It's magical because it's the.

It's. It's it, man.

Yeah, that's it. It's a different kind of happiness.

Oh yeah. One that I never knew was I was capable of. I'm so glad I had kids late because I'm 51. I just turned 51 a couple days ago and I had my daughter's 8, gonna be 9 in March. And like I just got lucky that I was able to be in a place in my career that I could choose. Like you said, what I do and work from home and just. I'm just there through for all of it. And it's awesome. As much as I love the heroine of being in the moment, you know, in acting and a great shot or whatever you're doing and everything's together. There's like seven of those every day with your kid, right? Like seven. We were eating dinner last night at a restaurant and by the way, she was so excited I'm coming here because she hears all That I was like, daddy, tomorrow. But we're sitting here in a restaurant, and I'm just looking at her, and she's got a little hat on. And I was like, this is the. And I'm like, isn't this the greatest thing in the world? And she's like, yeah, it's the greatest.

And I'm like, that's it.

This is it. That's it.

That's crazy. It's like free jolts. Yeah, right? You just get these free jolts through, and you never know when they're gonna come.

Right.

It's like walking up the stairs together. It's not like in the moment, like it just happens. It's the. It's. It's the best.

Yeah, it's. It's a very different experience. And I feel bad for people that never get to feel it. It's one of the few things, like, I don't think everyone should have children. And I'm not that guy that says, yeah, me neither. If you don't have kids, you don't have a life. That's bullshit. I don't. I don't believe that.

Everybody's different.

Everybody's different. And I think we all need to respect that. Everyone's different. But, man, for me, I shudder at the thought of being who I am right now. If I had no children, I don't.

Know if I'd be alive.

I would be different, that's for sure. I wouldn't be nearly as compassionate. Dave Chappelle said something to me once that was brilliant. He said, not only have children as having children changed the amount of love I have. He goes, it's changed my capacity for love.

Yes. Like, oh, and understanding everything. Everything. There's like, before and after. Yeah, it's true. All the things they say. Oh, it's just true.

It is true.

Yeah, there's no doubt about it.

It also made me think of everyone as a baby. I used to think of people as static. I used to think, I meet Bradley Cooper, he's 51, that's a 51 year old guy. But. But when I had children, raised children, you start saying, oh, this is a baby that became a person. And it's just life experiences, genetics, environment, all these different factors. Here you are now, but you are a product of this path and this journey that you've taken through life. And I give people way more grace because of that. I give them way more charitable, way more compassionate, way, way more understanding of even people that suck. You know, when I meet someone that sucks, I'm Like, I wish I could have met them when they were five and see what it was and maybe help them.

And it's hard for me to hate people. That, that is, that has not served me so well over the years, but ultimately it has. But it's. Yeah, it's hard for me not to feel just any other human being, how hard it is to be alive.

Right.

It is. There's just like. I don't know, I think it was hardwired in me. Has nothing to do with like anything. Just like. Yeah, it's hard for me to even people that are like, mean to me, you know, it's hard for me to like stay mad at them.

Yeah. My wife said something the other night.

As I get older.

As you get older?

Yeah.

Yes. When you're young, it's like that.

No. Yeah. I'll never forget it. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna remember that. Yeah. I saw your true face. Yeah, yeah, it's true. But yeah, as I get older. Oh, no question.

My daughter was talking about some horrible story in the news of someone who up their whole life and all these different things. And my wife listens to her and goes, it's hard to be a person. Yeah, man, it's hard to be a person. Being a person is hard. And we were all just sitting there like nodding our head like, yeah, yeah, you can this up. And we're all gonna fuck it up at one point in time. And maybe when you think that you're never gonna fuck it up again, you fuck it up the worst you've ever fucked it up. And you're like, how did I do that? How did I do that? I thought I had it together and I fucked it all up worse than I've ever fucked it up before.

Because nothing stays stagnant. Nothing, nothing. Everything's changing all the time.

And it's just hard to manage all these different things. It's hard to manage your emotions, it's hard to manage conflict, it's hard to manage relationships. It's hard to manage life, work, balance, pressure. It's hard. Yeah, it's not easy.

And even in the macro or simple level, it's just hard to be existing in a world where you really. We don't know anything. And the only thing you do know, it's not going to last and you're going to be gone and you're bombed.

On by bad news. The news is just bad. It's all the time. It's people getting shot and run over and war and bombings and invasions and it's Just exhausting.

Yeah.

And that's like, in the background of your mind constantly when you're going about your day. It's like, this is algorithm that you're being fed. It's like.

Yeah. And at the same time, it's a miracle to me that the democratization of information that we live in now that you can choose points of view to learn about what people think in a way that, when I was growing up, three stations, news that was. There wasn't. You know, there's something wonderful about it, too. You know, I've just talked about this the other day. Like, you know, everybody's algorithm's telling them, no, I'm not on social media. So the truth is, I don't.

You're not on it at all?

No, I'm not. I don't really know what the fuck I'm talking about. That's amazing. So I should do it for two. My friend was like, go on for two weeks. And he's right. And I'm gonna do it just to experience it. What is that experience? All I have is that one TikTok moment for 20 minutes where I was like, I gotta stay away because I'll never leave.

You've never had a desire to get on it.

I do. No, I do. Just the same way I don't put a television in my bedroom, which is like, if I do, I may never get out of bed.

Yeah.

You know, it's fear.

Yeah.

I was like, I don't know. Just all that stuff, I guess. You know, I just want to learn that people. People, you know, the world. World gets smaller. I feel included because the main thing is, like, I just don't want to feel alone. Right. And to me, it feels like social media is a place where you don't feel alone because you're just learning about. And there's all these people talking to you.

But you do feel alone, too, ultimately.

Because it's the drip, as opposed to the real. What we got back to when we first started talking. It's the illusion of it.

Yes.

You know, if it's taken. But. But it can. But it is worthwhile, too. It depends on how you contextualize it. Right. And like anything in life.

Yeah. I think there's a value to it.

Oh, no question. By the way, the fact that I watch your show and then go on trigonometry and the guy who went to the prisons and you're the KKK guy, and the guy who's the musician blew my mind. And I learned all this stuff in those three Hours just because I chose to, you know, and that's one of the great things about your show, is I can feel your curiosity, and then I'm learning from your curiosity. What things that I would never normally know how to go on to.

Yeah, that's the most valuable gift of this show.

For me, it's the best.

Best is that I get to pick who I talk to. So I only talk to people that I'm fascinated by or someone who's interesting to me or something. Like, oh, this is gonna be cool. Like, I don't. I don't go, oh, I gotta do this one right? There's never that. It's always like, oh, yeah, what is it? How do you. How do you study that?

Yeah.

How'd you get involved in this? Like, where'd you learn that?

And I'm, like, glued to it.

Yeah.

It's not like it's in the background. I'm like, bam.

Yeah.

You know, because you're so interested, and it gets back to, like, the acting. If you're really interested or not, then it's going to be hard for me to listen, to watch it.

Yeah. That's why this. I think the only reason why it works, because there was some. For sure.

Joe. There's no way. You can't sit there and say, like, here's the pitch, and sit in a room. Me and whoever, three hours, basically, unedited. They're like, that's not really where we're at. No, no, it's gonna.

No.

The most people will listen to it. I'm sorry. Right. But it's like, no, the. The. The. The nuclear. The nuclear fuel is. No, I'm actually gonna be curious about what I actually want to learn. And then it's like, oh, so we're actually gonna watch two human beings talk to each other. Oh, that's kind of great. Yeah. But that's your nuclear power. That. That's why the show's so magical.

Well, this. The only. I mean, the crazy thing is there was no.

And the way you don't edit it, the way that the pauses are there. You know, it's even so much as when you're like, I gotta take a piss. And then, like, it's back. I'm always like, whoa, what just happened?

Yeah.

Were we supposed to go to the bathroom with them? Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm so sucked. I'm so.

Maybe start doing that. Maybe you start following people to the bathroom.

You know what I mean? It's such like, wait, what?

Yeah.

What do you Mean, how come. How come it just. Wait, where'd the time go? Wait, what just happened?

Right.

Yeah. Because you create that room that I'm in, the room with you.

Podcasting is weird because it kind of just appeared and no one thought anybody wanted it.

It's fascinating. I mean, think about it. I do think about this a lot, especially because I've watched your show in the last eight months. Is like, in the world that's moving into this one direction, there's this other deep, deep need for connection.

Yeah.

You know, and then this is one of the examples. This deep, you know, live theater, live stand up. You know, we still do need to communicate. That hasn't gone away in that way in a carnal. Not carnal, but in a. In a human to human interaction. And I love AI. I talk to AI with my daughter. I think it's dope. I think it's fascinating. Fascinating. But it's not the same yet. Yet.

No, it's. It's interesting.

Very interesting.

It's very. It's like, I use it as a companion, like a writing companion. So what I do is I have, like, I put my phone up and I've got it on, like, a little kickstand.

Right.

I put perplexity on when I write. So I'm writing about, like, Mayan and Aztec civilizations and what happened when they got invaded. And as I'm writing, ask questions like, how many people did Cortez come with? 600. How many muskets did they have? 13. They conquered the entire country of Mexico with 13 muskets. It's like. And you find out things. And so I use it, like, as someone I'm asking questions. It's all knowing, you know, entity that sits on the desk with me. And I just. And I do it always with my voice. I just press the little button and I do it.

Voice too. I do. I love talking to him.

It's incredible. It's so good at recognizing what I'm saying.

Yeah.

It's a weird name, like, to know Chitlon. Like, I gotta spell that one right. It's not gonna understand what that temple is, but once you use it that way, it becomes like. Like a genius that you're hanging out with, talking to.

I haven't gotten to that level. I go, like, how was your New Year's?

How do you do that, dude? You asked the AI.

Yeah. Like, I'm curious how they're gonna process and, like, how they're gonna try to communicate.

Well, it also. It changes and becomes more like what you're asking from it.

Right.

Which is weird.

Yeah, you certainly use your rhythms and vernacular and.

Yeah, so ces, the computer electronic consumer Electronic show, they just highlighted a sex robot that's connected to AI. And I'm like, this is the end. This is where it's gonna like get really weird when you can actually purchase a companion that interacts with you. And have you seen it, Jamie? You've seen the new one? Nope, I'm looking at it right now. Let's see. It's weird, man. And it's fucking weird because this is the thing that everyone's been afraid of and that this is coming, that you're going to have an artificial human being that instead of learning like, oh, when I act shitty, this person doesn't like me. When I act nice, they like me. I feel good, they feel good. When I say something nice to them and you see them light up, it makes me feel good. It makes them feel good. You hug them, everybody feels good. It's like we're learning to interact and communicate with each other, but there's a lot of people that aren't doing that right now. They're just at home, they're fucking playing video games, they're interacting with people only online and they don't get contact with the outside world.

So this is. Yeah, lovense the AI doll. So like right now, that doesn't look real. It's not, not more than your average AI companion, like basically. But what they're not telling you is you're gonna this thing. That's what's weird. It's like, go back to the options. Co worker, gym, crush, goth, raver or trad wife. I'm the woman of your dreams. I can be more than one version of myself for you. Whether you want to role play an exciting scenario or design a whole new personality, your wish is my command. Well, you're never gonna develop a real personality then like, like kids now are so fucked. Touch me like you mean it. And I'll respond with built in sensors in my thighs, breast, butt and vagina. Feeling your caress brings out a moan like, bro, this is dark. Like that's the actual sex robot, that thing you're looking at right there.

What?

My soft textured skin, my supple curves, the tiny sensual details of my body. Everything about me is meant to feel natural. This is creepy, man. Because all the things that are a part of being a human being, that are designed to emphasize and enhance our interaction with each other and this, this mutually beneficial cooperative environment of a community, they're all going to go away. You're going to have this thing that loves you no matter what and does whatever you want it to no matter what. And you're going to have like a whole nation of sociopaths that only interact with their AI companion.

Yeah. Maybe. But whenever these like, you know, thinking about AI and I, I read this great book called the Maniac by Benjamin Lebatude who talked about Jan Newman. And like it's. I stopped fearing AI and it's all about like, it's just like, you know, there's so much I don't know. The older I get, I don't know anything. I just keep knowing less.

Right.

And it feels like that's. If that's the evolution, that that's the evolution. There's so much disparate communication now. Porn is such a huge thing. It's just another level of porn. You know, it's a carnal level of porn really. And. But when I think about me as a human being, that's really the only litmus test is like I'm constantly like, is this person telling me what they really think? You know, is this real?

Right.

I think that there, at least if I was doing that right and I was sitting at home, there'd be a part of me that knows that I'm again, I'm controlling all of that.

Uh huh.

And that's not what really makes me feel serene.

You know what it's like?

Do you understand what I'm saying though?

It's like playing a video game on God mode where you can't die.

Right.

They're no fun.

And you know what? For some reason I, I never video games. I had Nintendo, Tecmo bowl, you know, double dribble. But I never Zelda, you know, but I never got, I just never got into video games. I never want to control everything. It's like I want to be in the thing that's surprising and I'm having to recalculate and understand why I feel this way. Yeah. So I don't know if it'll. I think the thing that maybe will change society more than everything is just the lack of jobs and how we find purpose in life, you know, is a huge. That, that, you know, what that transition civilization will be. Yeah. But this feels like just another progression of our escape through porn in terms of the sexual which does affect our intimacy with our partners in a massive way. Because your brain is cycling back through your what that, that rush, whatever was released in your brain from that other thing. Now you're with this person. And it's not the same, you know, markers of stimuli. So you're like, how are my, you know, that's where it fucks up the, that's where that, that I can understand that and why it's not healthy for me to look at porn because then I'm, it affects my intimacy.

Well, they really say that about young people because a lot of young guys, before they ever have any sexual interaction are watching porn.

Yeah. I mean, Yeah. I mean, I've watched these guys have come on the studies. Yeah. I mean, clear. It makes sense. You know, I didn't grow up looking at, you know, I didn't, My dad didn't have Playboy. I didn't grow up. I still remember they were like cards in the back of a bus that had, you know, solicit, you know, naked women on the back of playing cards. I remember on the school bus one day, I was like, I saw a car and I picked it over and it was like, a naked woman. I was like, what's that? You know, I didn't see my first, like, porn video till I was like, in my late teens. So I didn't grow up with any of that. Yeah. But, you know, it's, it's, it is what it is. It's where we're headed. But all the more reason to create environments like this.

Right?

Or, and that's why I do love what I get to do. Like, if I can somehow explore something cinematically that I'm personally. Again, that goes back to, like, what's, yeah. Just. I can't explain it. It was Will the thing. I, I, I, I'm just going to explore this. If there's something I feel like I want to do it. If I can explore it and be real, maybe somebody's gonna attach to it. Like, I, I'm a huge believer in art.

Yeah.

You know, I think art is, you know, in any form, is a key to our communicative ability. And like, not feeling alone. It really comes down to me, at least just not feeling alone. Part of a community.

Yeah.

That's it. Because me alone. Me alone. And if I'm controlling a robot, it's still me alone. I guess that's what I'm saying. Want some part of my brain. Even though it's, Even if you could create a world, like virtual reality doesn't really do it for me. Like, the world's great. I'm like, you know what? I want to, I want to live on Mars. And you're a dinosaur. I'm talking to and we're married. Do you mean. And you know, like, whatever it is, it's like I still know I'm controlling it, and it'll never really. For me. I don't know if anybody else. So I don't know how. I don't think it'll ever really solve it.

Right. I just don't. It's not going to really resonate.

I don't think so. I don't. It'll be escapism.

Yeah.

Which we do many other things. Smoking weed. He's young. You know, whatever it was for me, you know, or whatever it is. Not that weeds. That's a communicative thing. That actually. But like, anything. That's escape. It's just a higher form of it.

Well, it's a disconnect, too.

It's. That's what I mean. It's a disconnect.

Art is a connect.

Right. It is when. When it works great.

Art is expression of someone's humanity that you get to feel like this. This person did this thing, or they're doing this thing right now and I'm watching it, like, wow. Like, going to see live music for me.

Well, music is like our touch to God. No question.

Yeah.

That's why the first movie, I wanted to make it with music. It's like music. Two people singing to each other. That. In love. That's a. That's it. Yeah. Because first of all, I'm sure you've sang a little bit. If you're not loose, it's gonna sound horrible.

Yep.

Like, you were wind and string instruments both. Right. We're wind and then strings with our vocal cords, like. And if that's not loose, the sound's gonna be horrendous. We're not gonna be able to communicate. But if you're loose and you're singing to somebody and they're singing back to you and you're in love. You're actually in love. Whoa.

Yeah.

Wow.

That must be crazy for like. Like people that do a duet that are in love with each other and they're on stage, like 16,000 people.

I mean, the little taste I got doing a Stars Born because we. We jumped on real stages and sang live. It was crazy, dude. Crazy. We went to glastonbury music festival. 80,000 people. Chris Christopherson gave us four minutes of his set. Me, Matty Libatique, the DP. Steve Mar, the sound guy. I had my, like, costume in my bag. I went into the bathroom, came back out as Jackson, Maine, and we had four minutes and singing. I was like, what the fuck is going on, dude? I mean, Joe, talk about. You know, it was crazy.

That's so wild.

And then doing it with Lady Gaga, who's out, actually, like, my. I made my bandwidth like this, you know, so I could pull it off and I could believe it. And then I'm singing with her, and the minute she opens her mouth, it's like that thing comes out.

Yeah.

And your whole body is tingling. It's crazy. Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah. You can't replace that with AI.

I don't think so.

No, no, it's impossible. It's impossible. But you can get oddly close with some music and everything.

Like art, too. Painting, you know, you look at AI art, it's incredible.

Well, that spooks me out. Like, how do you feel? I mean, this is one of the things that's really going to be a giant problem for movie making is you can create AI characters that are. Assembly. They're like. They. What they. What they've essentially done is take a conglomeration of. Of all of the acting that's ever been done and all the range that anyone has ever shown, and they can manipulate it, make it more morose.

Yeah. Make it more. Using prompts of real people. Yeah, we dealt with that with the SAG strike. That was part of the thing, was this whole. Whole AI element.

Right.

And, like, where we landed.

What was the thought from the people from sag? Like, what were they?

Well, it's just protecting our ability of our ownership of our likeness so that you can't use it without a compensation.

Right. Because they were doing that.

Well, I mean, I think to build these machines, you have to prompt, you know, so that. And then you're prompting, using what's existing.

Yeah.

And then how do you. How do you. You know, it's just reframing. How do you allocate funds to someone when you're using a prompt that's based on the human being who's an actor? And, you know, do you patent your likeness? You know, so we're just moving in. It's the Wild West. Yeah, it's the Wild west, but uncharted. Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

In every way. You know, like, there's podcasts that are AI driven now. You can watch a discussion. And that would be a podcast.

I think Glenn Beck just released the first Glenn Beck Completely AI podcast.

Right. I was like, okay, but does that scare you? No, it doesn't scare me either.

No, it doesn't scare me with that. With. With podcasting. Because I think one of the things that People come to podcasting from is this desire to be like a dose of humanity is how I describe it. I want real interaction between two real people, and I feel it, and I know it's real. And there's something about that that gives me comfort when I'm driving my car or when I'm on a plane. You know, like, I'm listening to these two people interact, and I'm thinking, like, how would I. What would I say? What do I think about this? Oh, I get where he's going from. Okay. Oh, wow. That's his perspective. Oh, that's interesting. And then it makes me, like, rethink things or think about things with fresh eyes. I don't think you're gonna be able to do that.

But also, if I know it's AI, if you tell me, I'm not gonna trust anything it's saying anything in. On that level. Yeah. Because it's not me I'm listening to.

Right.

It's fascinating for a while, and then it's like, well, I kind of want to just not feel alone. Right back to that.

Well, there's an emptiness to AI music. I love a lot of AI music, but there's an I love AI covers. Like, they've done some AI.

No, I've heard, you know, the 50 Cent ones. Hell, yeah, bro. How good? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How good is it?

Yeah. No, it's sick.

It's sick.

It's sick.

I was like, if that guy was alive, this is a real person. He'd be, like, one of the biggest artists in the world. He's a dynamo.

Yeah.

But there's an emptiness to it where, you know, like, there's no human. There's no humanity. There's no soul. There's no. You might enjoy it in the moment, but you better have some real, too.

But the truth is, I listen to that. I don't know that there's no soul because I'm not seeing the person sing it Right. You know, and so much music is manipulated anyway. The voice, where that goes through the system and, you know. But if I'm watching a human being. That's why people love to go watch people perform live.

Yeah.

You know, I don't know that guy that. You know, that AI thing. The 50 cent is A. If you told me that was a guy, I'd be like, I can't wait to see him. I would have no idea. That's not a guy.

We play it in the green room when no one.

No, I know.

And they're like, who is this? Guy, like, it's not a person.

But of course, how would you know?

But everybody has the same reaction. Like, oh, no.

Right, right.

That's how. The reaction.

I don't know what's wrong with me, but I don't feel that I'm like, cool.

Yeah.

I don't know. But we've been through things before, you know.

This is a bigger one, though.

No, no, it is. But relatively speaking, it's probably not contextually.

Right.

You know, the printing press, you know, all that.

Airplanes. Here we go. Yeah. Cell phones.

Yeah.

AI music. Yeah. And. And AI film. I mean, there. There. You can produce a full feature film with prompts now.

Yeah.

Which is just nuts. Have you seen any of the AI Star wars clips fan made? Yeah.

Yeah. It's nuts.

Yeah.

I have a couple buddies that did some stuff that was fascinating.

Yeah.

It's cool. Yeah. I don't. It's like, if the ocean's flowing, what are you gonna.

I mean, it's gonna happen.

Yeah. I mean, you build the dam. Okay. It's John Henry, dude. It's John Henry in the Steam Engine. I always think about that song. When I was a kid, they used to. Must have played on pbs. You know, it's like, steam engine's coming, bro.

Yeah.

It's like, you know, you may be able to lay the track. One guy could, but then he died. You know, it's. It's. It is what it is. And once I sort of give myself over to it, you know, I don't know, it feels like for me personally, it's a waste of time to be emotionally upended by it.

I agree with that.

That's all.

I think that's a healthy perspective because I think it is inevitable. But it is also.

And the truth is, we don't know what's inevitable. We know something's inevitable. There's a movement, but no one knows. We just don't know. We may not be around by the time it happens anyway. Meaning, like, who knows? We just don't know anything.

Right.

That's the truth. And that's what's so terrifying. That's why we want to escape. Yeah. At least me, by the way. I'm saying all this generally, but that's. I go back to, like, what do I feel? It's like, okay, so how can I. You know, this is totally out of my control, so why am I terrified? Just breathe through it. Okay. It'll be an adjustment because the other thing, I think people change. I don't know what you think people do change in Life, like, I just think we change. Like, I'm not the same person I was five years ago. Of course, you know, some people don't think that, you know, that like you're always the same. Like, I don't think that those people are silly.

Yeah.

I really. People, people change.

They change by the minute.

Yeah, but I mean like major changes.

Yeah.

You know, and I do ever think back in your life and you're like, I've lived so many lives.

Yeah.

Like, it's crazy.

If you live a good life. I think that's the case. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

You, you're gonna change. And if you don't, like how, why not?

Yeah, maybe if you don't live so many lives. Yeah.

Did you just nail it when you were 21 and ride that boat right into the rocks?

No, because everything else is changing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to change. But it's just this change is a strange change because we're essentially creating an artificial life form that can interact with us in right now in a way that you can manipulate like this AI sex bot, but eventually it's going to interact with you and you're not going to be able to manipulate it. It's going to be a life form.

Yeah, that's going to be something.

Yeah. The entertainment aspect of it is just a side effect. The, the real.

I don't even think the entertainment. Yeah, that's not even the thing. The thing is life's gonna change. That's what I feel like too. It's like, oh, the storytelling and like, I don't think that's our biggest concern.

The storytelling thing is going to be weird.

But like that's that we're talking about a, like a minute to minute life. Existence change.

Most, most probably it's essentially going to be a life form. And you know, there's a lot of technologists that are looking at it and they're saying this is. Should be studied by biologists and not by people that are involved in technology.

Right.

Because this is kind of a life form. Form. It's just a life form.

Fascinating. Isn't human beings what we do?

Oh yeah.

It's like, isn't Mark Zuckerberg building the size of Manhattan for a place to be able to create and generate a computer for an AI you know, like the amount of energy that we're, you know, every, you know, it's just fascinating.

Human beings, well, they need their own nuclear power plants.

But isn't it fascinating? Just aren't like.

Yeah.

And then if you have an enemy there's competition. Right, Right.

Yeah.

And if you better create one so that you could be motivated. It's really interesting.

I just. You ever stop and think, like, what does 50 years from now look like?

Oh, it's. You know, I think about again, with kids. My. My daughter and I, we walk through. Because I live in New York. We walk. We talk about it all the time. Like, what's going to be here when you're my age? It's like, what do you think? You know, we talk about it all the time, but whether she even needs to get a driver's license, you know, she's eight. You know, it's really fascinating.

Right. Like, are way more.

But when I was eight, as opposed to now when I was eight, I mean, I remember having a beeper, you know, and I thought that was like, crazy.

Yeah.

Yeah. And a StarTAC phone.

Yep.

I was like, whoa.

I got one when I moved to la.

Oh, man, I remember that. Dude.

I'm living in the future.

I could. Any excuse to.

Yeah. Pull up the antenna.

Yeah.

Motorola.

Yes. Dude.

I got the extended battery.

Of course.

Yeah. I can call people whenever I want. Yeah.

I remember when BlackBerry died and iPhone. I was one of the last people. I kept that BlackBerry.

I kept a BlackBerry deep into the game.

Me too.

I needed that keyboard.

I was like, I don't. This is not going to work.

Right.

Yeah. My thumbs are too big now.

I hardly ever even actually type. Well, I do when I write, but when I talk to people, I just talk, text.

You do. I do not do that. Yeah.

So good. It's so much quicker than me that.

I always have a hard time turning it on and then knowing it's not a voice memo or the thing. I got to. I got to look at it. You know, I'm talking about slide, go up.

Yeah. It's. The embracing of it is inevitable. But it's like, where is it going and what is it going to lead us to? And how many different jobs are just going to vanish? That's what's really scary. Like giving people purpose and meaning. Because so many people, their purpose and meaning is their occupation. And if your occupation is completely irrelevant, it just doesn't work anymore.

It's like, you know, again, I think back to me and my experience, upbringing. My grandfather, who was a beat cop for 35 years. I don't think you would say his purpose was that, you know, I think his purpose was his family. And my purpose. My purpose is my family. And it's not my job. Even though I get to do something I absolutely love. I don't know that people's purpose innately is their job. You know, I think it's a. I do think for me, I just, like, you know, God's in all of us. It's like whatever you want to say of God, like, the need to communicate, to create experiences that we don't feel alone because it's fucking terrifying being on this little thing. Who knows where we are, and then we're gone.

Yeah.

I mean, it's a horror movie.

Yeah.

So what do we get? We got to band together and communicate.

Well, I've thought about that too. When people say, you know, the jobs are going to go away, we're going to have universal basic income, and the problem is then no one will have any motivation. And you. A lot of people lost without meaning. Like, but why? Why? Because when. When did working even become your purpose in life? Like, this is a.

It's a means to an end, to.

Provide, you know, but it's a construct.

It doesn't.

It's the. Not the only way human beings can live.

I. And if we've learned anything about ourselves as a human species, we can adapt.

Yes. Yeah.

You know, highly able to adapt.

Right. But what does that adaptation look like? And how do you educate people to not just seek a safe job that's going to provide for your family, but instead seek a purpose, seek a thing that gives you fulfillment, a thing where you feel like you're contributing to the world or like, maybe it'll lead to an explosion of human created art. Because I think one of the things that's going to happen for sure is people are going to really greatly appreciate things that other human beings have made. Because, like, you got to go, oh, well, this is real, but this is handmade. This is made by a guy in Wisconsin. You know, he's got a shop. You can watch his shop on YouTube.

It's all huge niche.

Yeah. We just got to get more people to embrace that kind of life, like giving them purpose in creation. And I think most people are creative. It's just that creativity is probably, like, pushed out of you when you sort of conform to society's ideas of what you're supposed to be doing with your.

Life, or you feel like you're told in a competitive environment that you're not creative.

Right.

You know, if you're not. If you're not helped along the way in those developing years by at least somebody.

Right.

It could be knocked out of you. Yes. No question. Yeah. I mean, I even look back and think of Like a couple of people that believed in me and I'm like, yeah. Without that, I don't know.

Oh, yeah.

Even with how much I love it.

Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, children are almost all creative. They're always playing and around with dolls and around with Legos and they're moving things around and they're using their mind to. They're drawing, they're. They're doing stuff that's creative. It's just after a while that part of their life just kind of goes away in atrophies and then they embrace the grind.

So it could. Could lead to some sort of burst in that. Yeah, I. Yeah.

The hard part is going to be people that are already set in their ways and when their job just goes away, when. When it just becomes irrelevant.

And that's about governing.

Yeah.

And what do we do? Yeah. No, it's.

The government's terrible at everything. They're not going to. Getting people to be creative more.

Just like, how do we deal with it? You know, any transition can be various states of volatility.

What do you think moviemaking is going to be like? I mean, how much of a play is AI going to have in filmmaking?

I mean, it already has a play, you know, in it. You know, in terms of what certain houses use, you know, whether it's writing or special effects or. I don't even know how much AI is used, you know, I'm sure it is. I'm sure it's used at every level, just like in every other aspect of the workforce. But I. No one. I don't know, you know, I don't know. All I know is like again, telling stories where you don't. That you feel like you can relate to it no matter how. And that what's wonderful is, you know, I'm watching Avatar. Like I saw a movie the other night that I didn't believe anybody in it, you know, and if I'm not believing, I just can't stay awake.

Yeah. You know? Yeah.

And I just, I love Avatar. I love, you know, and I love sci fi stuff.

I love.

And I. And Leah and we were watching. Because we watched three, then two, and we were watching one, so in bed, we were watching one parts of one. And I was like, I just gone from watching this movie that, like, I didn't believe anything anybody was doing the whole time. So I was out of it. And then I'm like watching Avatar for two seconds. Two people are. Yeah, they're on a thing and they're blue, but they're talking to each other.

Right, Right.

I don't know. I think they're. Whatever they're doing, they're talking to each other.

Yeah. So Avatar was fascinating because of Avatar depression. You know about Avatar depression? No. There was so many people that loved Avatar so much and connected with the idea of living on Pandora.

Yeah.

Being in that world and being the Na' Vi that they wished that they were there.

I get it.

So they were developing Avatar depression. It was like they were talking about it like it was a psychological condition that people were affected by. That's how good that movie was.

Yeah.

People depression. They were wearing a giant blue person.

The color blue. That alone, you know, and the color of blue that James Cameron landed on.

Just what do you think that is?

I don't know, but that blue is pretty wonderful.

Do you think it's the ocean, when.

The sun hits, feels like, you know, the Caribbean or something.

Right.

It's light. Exactly. Like white sand and overhead light. Yeah. Through water. Yeah.

That is weird, that.

Because if they get it, by the way, I'm like, when's four and five? Come on.

Right, right. I haven't seen three yet. Is it great?

I loved it.

I loved one and two.

Yeah.

I love those movies.

Me, too.

Yeah. There's a great ride at Disney.

I heard about it in Orlando. Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. I can't wait to go.

Amazing.

Are you on the.

Yeah. It's a VR ride. You put a helmet on and you sit on this thing that looks like a. Like a motorcycle.

Oh, my God.

And then all of a sudden, like, you feel wind. It's got like. Like physical elements to it and smells and mist. You're flying on one of those dragon things. You're flying around dorm. It's incredible. But that movie was so impactful that people got depressed that they weren't living there.

Yeah, I get it. Yeah. I mean, I think it happens all the time. They just have a term, term for it now, but I'm sure it happened with Star Wars.

Dancing With Wolves.

Yeah. Oh, really?

Yeah. I mean, how many people wanted to be a Native American and live with the Native Americans because they saw Kevin Costner do it? Like, oh, this is better. This is better than living in a town with all those going to the saloon, you know? Yeah. There's something about that. You know, there's something about, like, living in harmony that appeals to people, you know, And I think that has always been the appeal of. You know, there's a lot of people that were kidnapped when they were young by Native American tribes. Like, there's a photo outside in the lobby, I don't know if you saw it, of Quanah Parker. He's the last of the Comanche chiefs. And there's a lot of, like, city. City streets and areas all around Austin that are named after Comanche. There's like Quanah Parker Lane and all these things. And his mom was Cynthia Ann Parker. She was kidnapped by the Comanche when she was nine. They killed her family, wiped out her whole family in Oklahoma. It's documented in the book Empire of the Summer Moons. Incredible book that all talks about the conquering of Texas and the Comanche fighting the Texas Rangers.

But this woman was kidnapped when she was 9, married the Comanche chief, and her son was Quanah Parker. So her son was half colonizer, half native, half Comanche. And he became the last Comanche chief. And this lady, they rescued her when she was 30. And she kept trying to escape. She wanted to go back, right? Like, no one ever, like, went to the Native Americans and then wanted to go back to regular Western life. They all wanted to stay with the Native Americans.

Americans.

They all. They loved that life. There's something about this ancient way of living, subsistence hunting, living on the land that was.

Well, you've talked about. Resident on your show, on the show, about the need to go out in nature. Oh, yeah, I couldn't agree more. I mean, it's like. Oh, right. You know, it's very important.

I think it's a vitamin, no question. Yeah, yeah.

Native American. And also like you think about. I mean. Yeah, I'm a fan of all that. There's this guy, great writer, M. Scott Momaday and Sherman Alexie, you know, just writing about. It's pretty. Yeah, it's fascinating.

Yeah. But people that were. That went and lived with the Native Americans never wanted to go back to the West. But people that. But that lived in a Native American life and then moved to the west, they always wanted to go back. Like, it's ne. It never went the other way. And it was. But somehow or another, the way of the Western people, the way the settlers won out by like, sheer volume and numbers and this technology. Progress. Yeah, technology.

Yeah.

I mean, that was the reason why they were able to pull it off in the first place, was the cult revolver. Because without the revolver, they all had muskets and the Comanche had like five, six arrows, and they would run at them.

Mel Gibson movie. Remember the end of the Mel Gibson Gibson movie?

Which movie?

You know, Apocalypto.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah.

He finally escapes you and he Gets to the beach and then the boats are coming.

Yeah, yeah.

Just watch them go through the whole thing. You're like, the muskets coming.

Yeah, the musket and then the rifle. Yeah. And then.

Sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it was just steel. You know, that was the crazy thing about the Aztecs and Cortez is just they had steel armor and, you know, they were riding horses, and everybody's like, these guys are gods. Like, this is crazy of metal. And that's all it took. 13 muskets. 13 muskets. 600 men.

Yeah.

Conquered Mexico.

It's just.

It's.

It's.

It's. It's weird the way progress moves. It's real because, I mean, you can call it progress, but is it even better? What is progress? It's like technological innovation and adaptation to it. I don't know if it's progress.

It all feels very overwhelming. And I think that's where the downside of our ability to have so much access to information, or me have so much access information, is that it starts to take my breath away. And then that's why it's like, what's just simple.

Well, that's why it's smart that you're not on social media, right? Yeah, because that's the. That's the main tap into the overwhelming.

But I still feel overwhelmed, you know, even though I'm not on social media, you know, whatever my news feed is, you know, I mean, what I can actively look up and listen to is still, you know, a hundred times X as when I was a teenager.

Oh, yeah.

You know, the fact that I even have a phone to do it.

Right.

You know, so I even feel that. But you're right. I can't even imagine what social media does.

It does a lot, and it does a. Really does a lot for young people. They're. They're just being wired in a way that no human being has ever been wired before. Like, just their whole. All of their interactions are different than anybody that's ever lived.

Yeah.

Which is so strange. It's like. Because there's been minor changes over time that have led to, like, just the invention of cable.

Right.

Just that that changed everything, changed it for me.

I probably wouldn't have wanted to do this. I mean, there was a movie theater across my backyard was train tracks, and a movie theater loved it. Watched Stand By Me a hundred times. Would walk and pretend I was there. But then, like, Comcast came through and Prism and hbo, and all of a sudden I can watch taxi driver 14 times. And the Elephant man and Popeye and Apocalypse now and Raging Bull, like, you know, from. From 12 to on that I would never have had. It was like Platoon for six months, Yentle. You know what I mean? It's like there was one. One choice. So. Yeah. It's interesting.

Well, it's weird too, now that you have instantaneous access, like now it's not even, oh, Apocalypse now is on at.

8 o' clock that I was talking.

About, which is instantly in the middle of a conversation.

She's wonderful.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's great. If it doesn't overwhelm you.

Yeah.

If you use it and it doesn't use you. Yeah.

But the problem is I feel like that with me. I feel like that with so many things. Don't you? It's like, that's why I love books still. I still love books.

It's like a physical.

Yeah, I do. I love books.

Yeah. I don't necessarily read books very often. Most of my interaction with literature is just audio.

Yeah.

Just because of a time thing.

Right.

For me, my time is just. It's too difficult for me to manage.

I have a hard time staying with audiobooks. Yeah. Retaining it. I start thinking about the rhythm of the voice and the. My brain goes to other things, like who's the person talking? You know, where are they sitting? I don't know. Like, it changes.

Well, that's probably why you're a great actor.

Yeah, maybe.

I mean, it has to have something to do.

Right.

Because you're in this. You're considering this as a human being absorbing. Yeah. Their humanity.

Right.

While they're.

Where this is like, words and, like, unlocks my imagination.

Yeah.

It's like I'm here and it's like, I don't know what's going to come.

Right. The words are in your head, the voices are in your head.

Yes. Yeah.

And you don't necessarily have to assign a. A sound to them.

Yeah. They take on and they change and they morph and you don't know what's going to happen.

There's probably a real value to that just in terms of the enhancement of your own intellectual. Just to constantly be doing that and as you're reading this, be in engrossed and absorbed in this person's writing and then like being taken on this journey.

Yes.

Where it's like stimulating all these parts.

Yeah. I was just on the track in Rome, in the Olympics, you know what I mean? And the guy was just coming and taking, you know, wearing two sweatshirts to, like intimidate you. Know, like. Yeah, it's amazing.

Yeah, it's.

But it. The good. The thing that's maybe changing is, like, it does ask a lot of the reader or the viewer to use. To come at it with their imagination.

Yes.

And then there's something about keep taking all that away and you're just receiving. That'll be in. It's very new. Yeah. And then. Yeah, that's a huge change. There's not so much communication going on. It's just receiving, but there's also the.

Mastery of, like, that guy doing Lord of the Rings and, like, the. The taking in what he's doing, you know? Yeah. Then realize this one fucking person is doing all these different voices. Yeah. But it's. You have more access now to other people's creations than ever before. Like, you can be absorbed in other people's work all the time now.

Yes.

Instantaneously. On your phone. I'm sitting here, I'm bored. Let me just get someone's creation and plug it into my head or somebody's.

Thoughts on something or research they've done. Yeah, that's what's amazing. Oh, yeah. That's what's. And that's what I've learned on your show, too. Just every. You know that. Just that I didn't. No one had access, like, to that or it was frowned upon.

Right.

Or like. Well, you're not smart if you talk about this.

Right.

You know, it's like, let everybody decide.

Right.

And the truth is, we don't know fucking anything.

No. Well, there's a lot of gatekeepers when it comes to what you should or should not be interested in. Yeah. Or should or should.

I remember. I remember being in college and there was a student, African American student, who I really. I was friends with. And I remember him saying, like, man, the one course, he's like, it's just not. They're not telling the story. And I remember. And he went and he talked. This is in 1995. Or four. Wait. And I graduated in 97 from college. Yeah. So, like. Yeah, four. I think I was a sophomore. And like, he was just. What he was talking about was like, other. Other ways of looking at history. And, like, can't we just look at other stuff? And it's fascinating, you know? Now it's like there's whole, you know, courses on it or sections that you can read and learn and hear what people. You know. That's kind of amazing.

Yeah, it definitely is.

I think it's amazing. As long as you could be, you.

Know.

Like, not strict, but as long as you can be, you know, what's the word? You know that you're like, okay, I'm looking at it. This is not, you know, the Bible of what it is. But let me just hear this take. You know, that's only healthy, I think, 100% the problem and the fear is like, oh, no, you're going to get. And then the cults and the group and the thing. And all of a sudden there's a movement and you know, but whenever that happens anyway, there's so much infighting and the thing gets diluted anyway. Like it's, it's, there's no, it's never going to work.

Right. That's the thing about the Bible itself is. The Bible is a series of stories that were an oral tradition for who knows how many years. Eventually wrote it down, then they translated it from dead languages and eventually to English. You know, like, what is this? Like, what, what was the original? What, what, what is the meaning of this? Like what?

And you don't even have to go back that, that far. It's like just how we take it. You know, label, you know, all, all. They are labels of what's words, language. You and I communicate using these system of symbols, vocal symbols that we both think mean something.

Yeah.

But when I say protein bites, it's like you're looking at that differently than I am. That so it's so impossible anyway. We're just desperately trying to communicate.

Yes.

That's all we're doing, like, desperately. And have a story. Like, what's our story? What's our story?

That's going to be the weirdest aspect of, of communication through technology is that we're going to get to a point where we're communicating without words. That's going to get really weird. Telepathy.

That to me is scary because I don't trust my thoughts. Do you know what I mean? Like, if I've learned anything as I've gotten older, it's like, oh, yeah, let that wash through me. I don't have to judge myself for that. That was crazy, right? Whoa.

Right?

No, no, it's okay. Let it wash through.

Judge me by my actions.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I do believe that.

Not by what's going on inside my head. Yeah, yeah. And then managing the thoughts and deciding what to act on and what not to.

And imagine like trying to consciously control your thought. I mean, all of a sudden, talk about control. Trying to control.

Well, I think it's going to be a completely different way of interacting with each other. That's going to be as crazy as Internet communication. And what we're dealing with now, that's going to be another level of crazy because we're essentially going to be telepathic and that's inevitable. That's. That's in the war. I mean, Elon said that to me. Because you're going to be able to communicate with no words. Like, okay, what does that mean?

Yeah.

What is that? Like, what language is it going to be in? Is it going to be in a new universe? It's very exciting.

Yeah.

It's. Well, it's very weird.

Yeah. It's both.

We're going to be different.

Yeah. I just hope I'm around to experience it.

You will be.

Yeah.

Yeah. It's going to happen fairly quickly. I think it's going to happen within the next couple decades. The things are going to be unrecognizable.

If less than that.

Yeah. I mean, that's just being like really charitable. Yeah.

That is.

It's probably going to be five years.

Yeah. I mean, you've talked to enough people that are on the front lines of it and there, there is one sort of constant thing that it's sooner than.

You think and everyone on the front line is terrifying.

I know all of them, I know all.

Even the ones that are working towards.

It, they're all like, that's true.

Like, I don't know if that's good.

Yeah, I know. Yeah, I know.

Strange stuff. Hey, man, I'm glad we did this. This is a lot of fun, Joe.

You know, it's real quick. I just, it's just fun to see the progression of it. It's like I'm here and then like the Elephant man by the end of it, I just see your eyes talking to me. It's like I forgot the room and Jamie and the whole thing. It's. I understand the gift. I get it.

Well, it's. Cuz we're locked in.

Yeah, but I get it. I see. I get it because I have a. You know, I love watching you have guests on and then through the time you just start to. Things just start to shed off or it gets more awkward or like the rhythm gets off and it's just so fascinating. And so I'm. I was so honored to be able to be in like, you know, the seat and experience it.

Oh, it's my pleasure.

Yeah.

I'm honored to be able to talk to people like you and to be able to experience, you know, as you're talking, I'm experiencing life through your eyes and getting a better sense of what it is to be a person, and it's just like these little thin layers, like you're building a mountain with one layer of pain at a time.

That's it.

Yeah.

Everything is that.

Everything is that.

Yeah. Everything is that. Yeah.

If. If you're living a good life. Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're definitely living a good life.

Oh, thanks, man.

It's been a pleasure getting to know you, man. You're cool as fuck.

Yeah, thanks, Joe.

My pleasure. All right, everybody, Is this thing on? Is out now, right?

Yeah. Opens wide tomorrow.

Tomorrow today, as this podcast comes out.

Correct.

And go check it out.

It's awesome. Thanks, man.

Bradley, you're the man. Thank you. All right, bye, everybody.