Transcript of #2421 - Derek, More Plates More Dates

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out.

The Joe Rogan Experience.

Oh my word, Derek can tell me about your new drink. Look at this here, Red Gummy Fish. I'm about to try it for the first time. And this is a Nootropic?

Yeah, so it's, uh, I think on the first episode maybe that I did with you.

Ooh.

Robust, eh?

That's good.

Yeah.

Oh, that's delicious. Oh, you mean robust? You're saying it like it potentially is another thing.

Oh, both. Flavor and, uh—

I think it's great.

Oh, right on.

Red Gummy Fish. This is fucking delicious. I drank the shit out of this.

Oh, I'm glad you like it.

Oh, a lot of stuff in here. What's in here?

So, I think it was the first time I was on you asked me about Gorilla Mind and the Nootropic formula that I use before podcasts and, you know, to get cognitively dialed. And at the time it was a capsule-based formula, and it still is, it still exists. But taking what we could to suspend in a liquid format and getting it into something that's more, like, publicly and widely accepted that they would want to drink on a regular basis and is something you could use daily. It's kind of what we did in this. So we included, essentially, like, a daily use version of the Gorilla Mind formula, which includes the tyrosine, precursor for dopamine, as well as other neurotransmitters, catecholamines like adrenaline, noradrenaline.

Where does it come from in food?

Liver is a good source, eggs, and in general it's just like the highly nutrition-dense foods that you would get it from. A lot of people aren't focusing on specifically, either because of caloric density or it's like an animal-based, like nose-to-tail thing or fill-in-the-blank. It's not impossible to do it. A lot of people who focus on it could, probably, relatively easily, but it's still one of the things you have to focus on actually kind of, like, maneuvering into your diet, typically. So, in general, most people are at least maybe, like, 50% of the way that they're at best.

Interesting.

So, I'm sure you're, you're familiar with cholinergics and their impact on, you know, cognition and whatnot.

Sure.

Uh, caffeine, tried and true, you know, best.

How much you got in here?

200 milligrams.

Nice.

Very difficult decision trying to come up with what is the amount you're going to stick with in perpetuity in this thing.

Everyone's addicted now. It's a real issue with caffeine.

So it's like the fine line balance of not too much, something that is still, uh, you know, tolerable, sustainable, going to be widely accepted and widely impactful on a beneficial level, but not overdoing it. And 200 is kind of what we landed on. And then youridine monophosphate, pretty unique ingredient. I haven't seen anybody ever include it in a drink, let alone even in supplements, typically. It's.

What is it?

So it's also something that operates via the cholinergic system, but in a different way. Mainly it's, uh, utility is kind of enhancing your sensitivity to stimulants. So somebody who is otherwise desensitized from, like, heightened exposure to things that either desensitize them to, uh, caffeine or nicotine or things of this nature, even something like the ADHD medications, um, this can actually, at least the literature suggests strongly, that it enhances dopamine neurotransmission potential.

Oh.

Yeah. So it's a pretty cool ingredient. And it seems to have some neuroprotective properties, potentially, as well. And some, uh, interesting literature on, like, Alzheimer's and whatnot, but it's more like fringe and to be determined how impactful it is. Um, and then on top of that, we have L-theanine, probably familiar with its effects.

Yeah.

Stacked with caffeine, increases alpha waves, good for verbal fluency, as well as just general, uh, attention, concentration, but keeping you a little bit more balanced and mellow while you have the heightened stimulatory activity from the caffeine and the other kind of, like, dopaminergic compounds. And then also saffron extract, which is a totally unique inclusion, in my opinion. Still, don't really see it in Nootropic formulas, let alone in drinks. And it's something that in literature is shown to be as efficacious as pharmaceutical SSRIs without inducing the same, uh, erectile dysfunction-inducing effects of it and without causing the same anhedonia-inducing effects, which is kind of like the muting of, like, pleasure in the, in, uh, the brain.

Saffron.

Yeah, super interesting ingredient.

Hmm.

And it seems to be pretty impactful for depression, for, um, anti-anxiety, and it also operates through a seemingly different mechanism, even though it's often stacked up against SSRIs for its comparisons and outperforms them or matches it with a relative lack of side effects. It is something that operates through seemingly antioxidant activity, some dopaminergic, some serotonergic, and just a little bit more of a benign way to achieve what is a similar outcome, but with a seemingly lower, if not negligible, to nonexistent side effect profile.

Right.

And anyone can go look that up and reference it. And then who pairs the name? Probably the most impactful, uh, acetylcholinesterase inhibitor that you can include alongside, like, choline precursors. So it inhibits the breakdown of acetylcholine as opposed to being the fuel, like the precursor, like choline. Acetyl, uh, alpha GPC, CDP choline, these are things that provide the substrate to actually produce the acetylcholine, preventing the breakdown of it too. Could otherwise get, like, a one-two punch where you get the heightened fuel substrate, but then also an inhibition of its breakdown.

How did you determine these, like, doses and what you were going to include and not include?

Uh, so a lot of it derived from the original capsule-based formula. So back in, I don't know, 2021, I had already been using this thing for daily use, essentially. And it was something that was determined based upon years of experience, um, personal anecdotes, but digging through hordes of clinical literature, ultimately. There's a lot of these compounds that have clinical studies on them for different applications. You can kind of sift through what are the efficacious dosages, where are they impactful, where is the sustainable level you could actually take this long-term without it being negatively impactful on, because sometimes if you overdo it in one area over time, it might be problematic.

Hmm.

Because sometimes that, this stuff, it's like a hammer solution. You might see an energy drink that's, like, 300, 350 caffeine.

Yeah.

And it's like, okay, you know, you've essentially, like, singled out a lot of the customers who might otherwise benefit from it. Even if there was other good stuff in the drink, it's like, only stim junkies can use it now, you know? So.

Yeah.

This is kind of, like, the fine balance of what I thought to be the most sustainable version of balancing, you know, dopamine input, serotonergic activity, getting some of that, you know, anti-anxiety support, and also getting a reasonable hit of caffeine.

And did you, so in pill form, so did you start out by using each individual supplement and then trying to use them in combination to see if there's a synergistic effect? Like, how did you do it over time?

I guess maybe that's a bit more interesting than digging through literature, but when I was a university student, just, like, being a nerd mixing stuff in my kitchen, like a chemist, essentially, and just measuring raw powders back, you know, in the day, what we would do, or at least, you know, like biohackers and what have you, we'd buy just, like, off of different websites, raw bulk ingredients, and then you'd measure it with little micro spoons in these laboratory increments to try and get, okay, the microgram equivalent of this. And you'd make some disgusting shake with a concoction of different unflavored powders and create what is your ultimate kind of combination through trial and error, ultimately.

And were you, like, doing a diary? Like, today I feel great.

Yeah, it was just keeping a log, almost like, you know, working out, like, how did you respond to fill-in-the-blank or, uh.

Right. Did you take into account, like, sleep, all these different factors, diet, training?

As many variables at the time. Obviously a bit more rudimentary and crude when you're, like, 21 years old and you're just trying to, like.

Right.

Get cognitively locked in to study for finals. But back then it was just, what is the most impactful things that I've heard work? And then also digging further into literature, looking on the limited, uh, forums that existed back then online, because it's a lot more of a, like, a niche community back then. It's not like this was ever widely.

What year is this?

Discussed. Uh, 2009, 2008.

Early days.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's like, that's when I first started fucking around with them.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I first found out about Neuro One. That was the first one I found out about.

Okay.

Did you ever try that one?

Neuro One.

It's Bill Romanowski's company.

Okay.

The football player.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So he developed it because he was having cognitive problems after, you know, years and years of playing football.

Hmm.

And so, uh, he came up with this formulation. And, uh, I was doing this radio show, Alice in No Name, in San Francisco.

Hmm.

And No Name's a dude. I forget his name, unfortunately.

Ironically.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so long ago. But he, uh, was working out with Romanowski. Romanowski was trying to get him in shape. And he gave him this stuff. And he said, "Hey, try it." And it was, you know, I do morning radio. When you're promoting, like, I was doing Cobb's Comedy Club. Whenever you're doing a comedy club, you'd show up. This is back in the day when radio meant something.

Hmm.

You'd show up in the morning and you'd do the morning drive. And, uh, they would go, "Oh, Joe Rogan's appearing at the comedy club this weekend. Come see him." And you'd be funny on the radio and have a good time with the people. And he gave it to me. And I was like, "Hey, man, this stuff feels like something's going on."

Hmm.

Like, this is legit. And that's what really got me. And that's how we developed AlphaBrain. We developed AlphaBrain after me trying out Neuro One, saying, "Is there a way we can we optimize this? Is there another way to do this? Is there, you know, other forms that we're missing?" And, but your formulation seems, like, very comprehensive and also.

Oh.

Fucking delicious.

Yeah, it's one of the difficult things too is making it taste good while still being able to suspend the active ingredients.

Mm-hmm.

Because they could just fall out of suspension or.

Right.

Myriad of different issues, carbonation.

Sure.

Problems, even exploding cans in transit that you're not predicting are going to react a certain way. Even the black lids, dude, like, it's stuff you don't even think of, but it absorbing heat. It's like, oh, it's going to be more prone to blowing up now because of that.

Oh, because of a black lid?

Yeah.

What, did you want a black lid just for aesthetics?

Yeah, at the time. It was like this.

This looks cool.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah. And so what are you sweetening this stuff with?

Uh, primarily sucralose, which obviously, you know, some people have their opinions on it, and that's totally fine and good. But in general, based on clinical literature, it seems to be well tolerated. And.

What is the issue with it that people have?

I think some people think it depends on the person and, like, the kind of content they make typically. And typically.

Oh.

They have a bit of a.

A bias.

Yeah, but in general, it's, you know, going to irritate your gut or it could cause GI distress. And for some people with extremely sensitive, uh, gastrointestinal, uh, issues, it can for sure. But in general, at the dosages used and just having it, even conservatively, which most people are going to be, it's, like, pretty benign, at least from the literature I've seen.

One of the things that we had, uh, noticed when we first came out with AlphaBrain was for some people, it's a small amount, but for some people, they would get headaches and they felt terrible.

Okay.

After taking it. Um, I don't know what their dose I don't know if they were taking the recommended dose or if there was an.

Well, two's good. I'll take five.

Yeah, there's a lot of folks like that out there. But, um.

Yeah, some of these, if you're not careful, it could be, you know, pushing you into.

Yeah.

Uh, like, we've vetted this out beforehand, but one of the first formulations or prototypes of Gorilla Mind in the capsule form, we had something called Velvet Bean Extract, which standardizes to L-DOPA. So, like, levodopa is used for, like, Parkinson's patients.

Mm-hmm.

Because it's a direct precursor to dopamine without a rate-limiting step that kind of, like, inhi-regulates the conversion. So rather than using tyrosine, we were like, we thought, and we didn't end up releasing it because of this, we could just go, okay, let's get a straight precursor and see how impactful this thing is because we really want it to hit. And oh my God, I, I had, like, dopamine overdose myself.

How did it get you?

My girlfriend at the time also fucked herself up. And my parents fucked themselves up. And somehow.

Somehow.

It didn't, it didn't occur until, like, like, three incidents later, I'm like, okay, this thing is unsustainable. And I guess my, my business partners didn't really even think worth mentioning, which was kind of crazy at the time, because they just trusted me to do the formulations and whatnot. But they had the same experience and didn't bring it up. And I'm like, guys, like, we can't release this shit. And it was just, like, way too intense.

What did it do to you? What did it do to you?

It just, like, makes you extremely nauseous. You feel like you have to keel over on a couch and just lie there until you feel like you can actually regain composure and start moving around again.

Really?

Yeah, dopamine. A lot of people think more is better.

Right.

You're going to have more motivation, more drive, more, you know, it's the, the more the better is what a lot of people think, but similar to probably even worse than stimulants, because at least stimulants, you have kind of, like, a direct biofeedback through your heart rate's going through the roof and you're getting the anxiety. With dopamine, if you overdo it with something that you can't, like, rate-limit either, you just, like, get sick.

Wow.

And you just end up having to lie down for hours.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Um, one thing I like about a drink versus, uh, a pill form is that you can just take a little.

Yeah, you can meter your dose.

Yeah.

Because you take a pill, you're taking a pill.

Yeah.

That's it. You can't, like, unless you want to cut pills in half or pour some of the capsule out.

Yeah, yeah.

No one's doing that.

Yeah.

But this is nice because you can just kind of sip a little bit of it. How many of these can you drink in a day?

Uh, I could drink a lot, personally.

Like, you don't even want to know, dude.

How many do you drink a day?

Uh, on a typical day, probably two to three. But I could.

What's recommended?

Oh, check the warning label, bro.

What does the warning label say, bro?

It must say no more than two a day. But I would say on a podcast, not more than one is what I would recommend.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, especially with all that caffeine as well.

Yeah, you never know. Um, in general, 400 milligrams is even, like, the FDA-stated, you know, everyone's going to be okay probably dose. But in reality, it's kind of crazy. A lot of people don't realize the studies done for, uh, caffeine-induced performance enhancement are all looking at, like, three to six milligrams a kilogram, which is, like, unless you're a tiny woman, 400, 500, 600 milligrams are the doses that actually really move the needle when it comes to acute performance enhancement.

Uh, Chail Sunnan used to take it in pill form.

Yeah.

Because, um, he was saying that, uh, there's a level where they'll test you, well, you'll pop, where they'll say, okay, you're in a stimulant level. Like, you took a stimulant before you fought.

Yeah, they have a they had threshold concentrations that they would deem inappropriately high, perhaps for safety, perhaps because they thought it was an unfair advantage. It's kind of.

I think that's what they were looking at it.

It kind of depends, though, because I think it was removed. And I don't think that threshold exists anymore except in the NCAA. I'd have to revisit it. But I'm pretty sure caffeine is, like, essentially you could go full bore at this point.

Interesting.

Yeah.

So 500, 600 milligrams was what the efficacious dose was?

Um, so you can get performance enhancement as low as I think some people was, like, a milligram per kilogram.

Hmm.

It depends on the person and tolerance, of course. But in general, the most tried-and-true studies when it comes to repeatable high impact with a proportional relative lack of side effects, but not none, was, like, three to six milligrams a kilogram. And some of the studies go even higher than that.

Interesting. And what, what are the benefits? Like, what did they get?

Uh, like, acute, uh, strength enhancement.

Really?

Um, offsetting, like, any sleep-induced deprivation and performance outcomes mentally. You can pretty much offset, like, a shitty night of sleep and all the kind of detriments to your performance via a pretty solid dose of caffeine. Um, yeah, most of the stuff is kind of energy acutely offsetting performance decrement related, but also in a context of strength, um, high-intensity activity, you can absolutely get a benefit from it. And there's a reason why, you know, sprinters will take, you know, modafinil or high-dose caffeine or power lift.

Mm-hmm.

Like, it's all impactful for your psychological state to get really, like, locked in, in a hypervigilant state to really max out on what you're trying to do, whatever it may be.

Um, did you I had a podcast the other day with Chris Masterjohn. Do you know who he is?

Yeah, he's great.

Great. Um.

Yeah.

And we were talking about, uh, the impact of creatine. And, you know.

Oh, yeah.

And they're trying to figure out, like, what, what is the correct dose.

Mm-hmm.

And a lot of people are going 20, 30. They're, they're getting pretty high.

Mm-hmm.

You know, because the recommended was, like, five milligrams, I think.

Yeah.

And now everyone's saying, actually, the real benefits are at 20 and, you know, at least 10. But you're getting a lot of what, what happens when people have, uh, sleep deprivation. Um, and I, I'll butcher the science, so I, I won't try to repeat it. And I recommend anybody listen to the episode. But what he was essentially saying was it, it bypasses all of the problems that occur.

Mm-hmm.

And you could at least have a bridge to, uh, your, your performance would not be impeded by a lack of sleep, at least for a temporary.

Yeah.

For a day or whatever.

Yeah, definitely want to touch on that. But one thing to mention on the caffeine too is I think a lot of people, when they hear the stuff like, you know, I heard you can go up to 20 grams of creatine or, you know, the high, the highest impact dose in caffeine literature is, you know, three to six milligrams a kilogram. It's not like I or I imagine Chris is, like, blindly recommending anybody start there.

Exactly.

And it could easily get misconstrued that way in, like, a clippable format if people just, like, hear the headline and then run with it. Like, in you should start as low as you can with caffeine. And you could get a ergogenic effect as low as I think the lowest dose was, like, 50 to 100 milligrams probably if you equated to body weight. But it's all, like, tolerance dependent.

Mm-hmm.

It's just when you look at the studies, like, these are the repeatable high-impact outcomes are typically in, uh, and especially in, like, trained athletes where you're trying to see how hard you can push them. It's kind of like, you know, for max stress resilience, max, you know, acute force production, these are the kind of dosages that are just used in the studies. So anyway, with that caveat, and same with the creatine, you know, you might shit yourself if you go to 20 right away.

Right.

Like, you don't, you don't want to start there.

A lot of people do, apparently.

Yeah, and I mean, like, uh, like Rhonda Patrick, amazing content. And she tolerates 20 grams well, which is kind of, like, surprising because I know a lot of women who don't. I think she doesn't probably, uh, microdoses it throughout the day and is really regimented about making sure she's diligently spreading it out. But some people who they bomb 20 at a time, even guys who think they have iron stomachs.

Just shit all over the place.

Yeah, yeah.

And it's like, oh.

It's so much powder too.

Yeah, yeah.

Just the fact that you're consuming all this powder.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Speaking of which, are you still doing the, like, million gummies a day?

Of what?

Of creatine.

No.

You said you were going to crank that shit up.

Yeah.

To get to 20 grams.

I stopped with the gummies and I went to powdered form. Yeah.

Oh, okay.

Because I felt like I'm tired of eating these fucking things.

Mm-hmm. You got up to, like, what, like 10 plus a day and you're like.

Or more. I was eating, like, 15 a day.

Oh, that's so intense.

15, 15 gummies a day.

Wow.

But the, the issue is, like, what else is in the gummies? You know, what are, what are the other things, you know.

Yeah, they're not full.

Gelatin and.

Calories either. It's kind of just, like, if I'm going to eat candy, you know, I kind of want it to be, like, good candy.

Yeah, I don't even know what it's, uh, sweetened with. They taste good. But the point was, it's like, I didn't like eating them.

Yeah.

Like, I was eating too I was, like, forcing myself to chew these things down. I'm like, what am I doing? I could just mix creatine in a glass of water, stir it up real quick, and just chug it in five seconds and we're done.

Yeah.

I don't have to chew and swallow all these stupid fucking gummies.

I know.

But I do keep them.

Yeah, yeah.

I keep them around because I think it's, it's a great thing. Like, if I hadn't had enough lately, I'll just pop a few.

It's like the best gateway drug, if you can even call it. It's not like a drug, but to get people who otherwise would never try it to actually see the benefits of it.

Right.

So, like, I know so many women who literally refuse to take the powder because it's, like.

Right.

Even though it's kind of, like, tasteless, it's still a nuisance, can be a little bit messy depending on the scooper shape of it and everything and how you're going to try to convince a chick, like, it trust me, it's really good for your health if you, like, you know, fucking swig this thing dry and then chase it with water every day. It's not, it's not the easiest sell every time.

Oh, that's true.

They're like, fuck you. I don't care. So the gummies are good for that, in my opinion.

Yeah.

And, um, yeah, I mean, we're going back to the 20 grams and the offsetting of, you know, performance deteriorations. I do think it's, uh, basically offsetting kind of the deficiencies in, uh, like, ATP production, especially locally in the brain.

Yeah.

And also, uh, kind of offsetting the pulling of resources away from, like, methylation support and whatnot in order to produce the endogenous creatine as well. These things can all be impactful to kind of, like, get you back to almost baseline. So if you're in a deteriorated state, being able to offset the performance decrements from an otherwise, you know, sleep-deprived state or, you know, you're traveling or what have you, like, it can absolutely be super impactful. And the literature has shown that time and time again.

What's interesting is that creatine in the 1990s was thought of like steroids.

Yeah.

I mean, it was really, like, frowned upon. Like, oh my God, someone's taking creatine. They're cheating.

Yeah.

It was really that's like how it was first introduced to the market.

You'd have to hide it from your parents when you were a teenager.

Really?

Yeah. Well, at least when I was a teenager, it was kind of like it had a taboo still.

Mm-hmm.

It was like, you know, kind of like steroids light version.

Well, it's because it works.

Yeah, and parents but they hear the stigma and the taboo associated.

Yeah.

Like, I heard creatine, they're selling it at the GNCs.

Yeah.

You know, better watch out for that one.

Meanwhile, they had real steroids at GNC.

Oh, yeah, the irony too.

Yeah.

I mean, they had, like, fucking M1Ts over the counter.

Yeah.

From, you know, like, some 19-year-old kid who's just, like, manning the counter and doesn't care and will, like, fuck your endocrine system up to sell it to you.

100%.

Yeah.

I took some stuff called MagTen. Do you remember that?

M uh, if I saw the ingredient deck, I'm sure it's just, like, some fucking run-of-the-mill.

Okay.

M1T product or something.

Gained, like, 10 solid pounds of muscle in a month.

Yeah. And I bet your liver markers, not that you did blood work back then.

Were destroyed.

Yeah, like, worse than if you took, like, injectable Trend even.

Right, right.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Yeah, well, 100% it killed my dick afterwards too. When I got off of it, I was like, what's going on?

Yeah.

And I was like, oh, this is a real steroid.

Yeah, and it's like, you're not given the PCT from the guy at the counter.

Meanwhile, I felt like a fucking gorilla when I was taking it.

Yeah.

I felt so strong when I was taking it. I literally gained I think it was, like, I was on it for five or six weeks and I gained 10 solid pounds of muscle.

Mm-hmm. The amount of people that have inadvertently gotten gynecomastia from those days when they were sold some irresponsible.

Yeah.

Pro hormone over the counter without, like, any knowledge of what they were taking and then had to just recover naturally with no support, it's a shame.

Yeah, well, there was so much of that stuff, like werewolf blast.

Oh, it is.

There was, like, dragon's dick.

Yeah.

It was, like, you could buy them and they were just pills. They were just regular pills.

The stimulants are crazy too. Like, uh, ephedrine was over the counter.

Oh, yeah.

And, like, so weird, but in Canada, for relatively recently even, it was still available over the counter, even though Canada is, like, super tight on regulation when it comes to the most weird stuff. Like, when it comes to caffeine, you can't even have a can with 200 milligrams. It has to be, like, 180 or lower.

Mm-hmm.

Why exactly? I don't know. But that is a thing as well as limitations on basic amino acids. It's, like, tyrosine if it's more than, like.

What?

10 milligrams or something.

Amino acids.

Yeah.

That's hilarious.

Yeah, it's crazy.

Like, based on what?

Nonsense. Yeah.

Oh, God.

But it.

Fucking nanny state.

But anyway, so ephedrine, for whatever reason, was still over the counter available in GNCs up until, like, a handful of years ago. And it was, you know, the best seller in GNCs and a lot of supplement stores, not just because it worked as, you know, like a bronchodilator, but also because people were buying it in bulk to make meth.

I believe it.

Yeah.

I took RIP fuel once, uh, for jujitsu right before jujitsu.

Yeah.

And I had to stop in the middle of the class.

Yeah.

I was like, I got to sit down. I, I pulled over to the side and I'm like, guys, my fucking heart is beating over my chest.

Yeah.

And I was explaining, I, I don't remember how many I took, but I, I took some RIP fuel.

Oh.

I was like, well, it's good to lift with. I'll try it for jujitsu. It's fucking ta for something that, like.

Yeah.

Really taxes your cardiovascular system, it was horrendous.

Resting heart rate of, like, 120.

Right away, I was tired.

Yeah.

Like, right away.

Yeah.

Like, right away.

Yeah.

Like, we start rolling. I was like, God, I'm fucking exhausted. My heart's beating out of my chest.

But in your brain, you're like, this feels good. I feel the first one.

No, I knew I fucked up. I knew I did it once and I never did it again.

If you're, if you're doing that sport, but for a guy who's going to the gym.

Oh, yeah.

And is told, like, this is the shit, bro.

If you're just lifting.

Yeah.

Yeah, if you're just going for, like, max bench, that kind of shit.

Anybody watching will know, you know, the original have you heard of Jack 3D?

Yeah, I took that too.

Yeah, that shit was nuts. And what's crazy too is back then, it was proprietary blends on a lot of the products. And it was still the norm with no education available, no YouTube to really tell you what to look for.

Oh, so no oversight.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So these companies would basically sell you for, you know, 50 bucks a tub of, like, a powder-flavored tub of just, like, the stimulant. And then it was like, like, all the other ingredients for vasodilation, they're like, fuck you. You're just getting DMA, bro.

Yeah.

That's it.

Yeah, you were just getting, like, straight meth.

Yeah, yeah.

It was crazy. There was so much. Those were the Wild West days of, like, GNCs and, like, local vitamin shops.

Yeah.

Because you could get stuff that really worked.

Yeah.

Like, worked like something that's highly illegal.

Yeah.

And you could buy it with a credit card.

And the sales tactics were just, like, so ruthless.

Yeah.

But you couldn't really prove them otherwise.

Right.

It's like.

It was always, like, a, a pit bull with, like, giant muscles.

Yeah.

On the cover of it with, like, lightning bolts.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny too because some of these companies, it's like, now we're in the mix competing with them on shelves or whatever. But I remember being, like, convinced back when I was a teenager by them, oh, you need, you know, Gacic, Lukic and Creekic and this combo that costs 250 bucks.

Yeah.

And it's like, you know, literally, uh, pressed tablets of, like, glutamine or something at a dose that doesn't even help. And they're telling me, like, this is what G-culler used to fucking prep for the Olympia.

Sure.

Yeah. He's like, look at the before and after of Lee Priest. He lost, like, 50 pounds of pure fat and kept all his muscle from Celltek.

Oh, that's a dirty thing about those bodybuilders back in the days. They couldn't admit that they were on gear.

Yeah.

So they were all just telling you they were taking this stuff and then they would be.

Yeah.

Spokespeople for it. And it's like, God, it was so deceptive.

Yeah.

It was so creepy. And you'd have to know someone at the gym who would, you know, go, oh, I want to be like Lee Haney.

Yeah.

Like, no, that's not how he got that way.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, you got to take the, the real stuff. He's this is what he's actually taking. And so many people didn't think that those bodybuilders were on, like, hardcore steroids.

Yeah, a lot of yeah, it's a deception at a mass scale for sure. I don't think.

The whole sport.

Yeah.

The whole sport was just a, a complete, like, three-card money game.

Yeah. It's crazy because now it's almost full circle because, you know, I was back then, you know, con at least at the time, when I didn't know any better, oh, you know, I guess this guy must be natural because he told me so or whatever.

Yeah.

And it's like, I'm skeptical, but, like and, you know, you th in hindsight, it's absolutely ridiculous. But now a lot of bodybuilders are pretty forthcoming because it's more normal to be transparent and also not mislead people and, you know, unethically sell things and just reality check people on the what it's going to take to be at that level and is it the risk you want to, you know, subject yourself to. Because back in the day too, it was like you didn't know if you had good genetics or not when it came to certain dosage responses. So you would, like, always think the next guy is just taking more than you.

Mm-hmm.

Unspokenly thinking, this guy must just be taking 5X the amount of shit I'm on. So I need to go to, like, 5 to 10 grams of total gear per week now.

Geez.

And you would just, like, that's what led to so many early deaths in bodybuilding too. So.

I think there's another thing. Another factor is that the consequences of lying and getting caught now are huge.

Mm-hmm.

Because if you lose all credibility and people know that you're just a bullshit artist.

Yeah, that too.

And then they'll never trust you again.

Yeah.

Like, you have one chance to tell the truth forever.

Yeah.

And the moment you violate that, you are always a liar.

Yeah.

And that's a, that's a giant fucking issue with, with whether it's actors or anybody.

Yeah.

You know, like, all these guys who prep for roles and they're, they're talking about it now. Like, oh, I took Anavar. I took this. Like, Mickey Rourke did when he was talking about that movie, The Wrestler.

Mm-hmm.

You know, I remember they were asking him on whatever talk show he was on. He's like, oh, I fucking took everything. What are you talking about? I took a.

That guy was a pioneer of interviews for that kind of stuff.

Well, he's a wild dude.

Yeah.

He'll tell the truth.

Yeah.

Yeah, but you have one chance to tell the truth forever.

Yeah.

You violate that and you're always going to be a bullshit artist.

Yeah, a guy who's pretty good about that now is, uh, Frank Grillo.

Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He was doing some, like, men's health thing.

Mm-hmm.

And I have never seen men's health talk about steroids forthcomingly.

Interesting.

Yeah, so they had him on in a sit-down interview and they were like, so, you know, what's it take to be a?

This recent?

Yeah, it's like last year within the last year.

Oh, right, right.

If not months ago.

Is this when he was talking about Anavar?

Yeah, and he talked about his TRT protocol and kind of, like, the realities of how impactful it actually is and improving his performance and how it makes him feel. And he was just, like, pretty non-trigger coded about it.

Well, he's a good example because he was clean for a long time.

Yeah.

Like, he had, like, very low testosterone because he was just going on willpower.

Mm-hmm.

He was really just, just working out on willpower. Uh, Action Star lifts the lid on fitness, recovery, and the reality behind the scenes physiques. Frank Gillis 60 gets real about Hollywood steroid use. They all do it. Well, that is a fact. But he was not on anything for a long time, like, deep into his 50s. And he got his testosterone tak he's good friends with Brian Callan.

Mm-hmm.

And, uh, you know, he got his testosterone taken and it was fucking nothing.

Yeah.

He had, like, zero. But he was just very disciplined and working out hard.

Yeah.

But he didn't look like he was on gear. He just looked like he was ripped.

Yeah.

He was, like, shredded. He was, like, in really good shape because he trained every fucking day and he was doing a lot of boxing.

Yeah.

So a lot of, like, heavy caloric expenditure, a lot of, like, long rounds, hitting the back, hitting mitts, doing sparring. You know, you're going to burn off so much calories. And also, you're going to, like, your, your metabolism is going to be, like, completely jacked.

Yeah.

So then for him to talk about, okay, now I got on this and then I got on that and this was the improvements in my sleep, my mood, everything got better.

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, he's talked about it as, like, his testosterone when he got it tested was super low.

Yeah. Yeah, it's, uh, probably one of the few examples actually still to this day though of somebody being, like, really transparent. I actually saw The Rock talking about peptide use recently, which was kind of like a.

Interesting.

Yeah.

Dipping his toes in the water.

Yeah, exactly.

But he's lost a ton of weight, man.

Oh, dude, yeah.

It's kind of crazy.

Yeah, and there's a lot of speculation about if it's, like, a health thing or what, but I don't know. That's tough to know because he just had the role where he gained the most size he ever has too.

Right, right. But that, I God, that had to be terrible for him.

Oh, for sure.

Yeah.

But it's like, would you have subjected yourself to that if you knew? I don't know if he would have known, but you would have think proactively he would know how close he is to kind of, like, an issue, um, being.

Probably pretty close. 50 years old and getting up to 300 pounds.

Yeah, I just mean, I think he probably had more preventative screening before that role to know he could even subject himself to it without dying because it's, like, a pretty risky endeavor to go become the biggest you've ever been at that age.

Right.

So to then downsize after the theory is that he was literally about to die essentially. So that's why he lost so much weight now. And I'm thinking, I think maybe he's just, like, trying to take, like, a health phase and kind of, like, come down in weight for a bit and he'll probably, like, crank it back up.

Honestly, I think just and this is pure speculation. I haven't talked to him about this. Um, I think based on what he tried to do with the Smashing Machine, I think he's trying to win an Oscar. He's trying to be a real actor.

Mm-hmm.

Because he was really good in that movie.

Yeah.

Did you see it?

Uh, not yet. Planning on it though.

It's the best mixed martial arts movie ever. That's not saying a lot because they all suck. Um, but it is the it's the most accurate in terms of historical matches.

Yeah.

Like, they, they had all the matches, like, with Igor Vovchenzhyn, all these different people that he fought.

Yeah.

That Mark Kerr actually fought. And it's just a good movie. It's a really good movie. Like, like, Emily Blunt plays his crazy girlfriend.

Mm-hmm.

And she's out of her fucking mind. And to the point where, like, they're arguing right before he fights.

Yeah.

And you're getting anxiety watching like, oh, Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah.

It's just such a crazy, toxic relationship. It is Emily Blunt, right? I didn't fuck that up, did I?

Yeah.

That is it. She's fucking great in it too. It's just a really good movie.

Mm-hmm.

That I think would have gotten a lot more credit if it wasn't a mixed martial arts movie.

Yeah.

Because I think, you know, mixed martial arts movie is like, oh, it's some fucking meathead, like, rah-rah-rah, you know, bullshit.

Yeah.

Movie. But it's, it's a very good movie. And he is Mark Kerr.

Oh, he always so accurate.

So good.

Yeah.

He, he just and, and not just the fighting stuff, man. The fighting stuff was great, but the acting stuff.

Yeah.

Like, he played that guy. And I know Mark. I was like, fuck, that's Mark.

Yeah.

That's nuts. It was so good. It was a really good movie. So I what I think he's doing is the same thing Bautista's doing. Dave Bautista.

But inversed.

Well, Dave Bautista lost a lot of weight too.

I yeah, but I guess I mean, like, typically when actors are trying to get taken more seriously for more impactful, like, artistic, creative roles, it's almost like the jacked meathead guy downsizes to do something more, you know, like, I don't know, artsy.

Yeah.

But, like, this is getting as yoked as possible in order to be the art.

Oh, yes.

Right, right, right, right.

Yeah.

Whereas Bautista's, like, fully downsized I think now.

Yeah, but I, I think what I'm saying is now.

Yeah.

What he's doing now.

Yeah.

I think he's probably trying to get different kinds of roles.

Interesting. Yeah.

Roles where, like I mean, if, if you've ever met him?

No.

He looks like a superhero. He looks like a superhero.

Yeah.

Like, we, we worked out together.

Yeah.

He came to the gym and I brought a bunch of comedians. We worked out and hung out. Like, Tony Klinchcliffe was in his glory because, you know, he loves pro wrestling. We're all in the sauna together hanging out with the rock.

It was the first time he he probably still doesn't know that he uses gear.

What's that?

He probably still doesn't know that he uses gear.

What do you mean?

Hinchcliffe is just like.

Oh, so Hinchcliffe doesn't know that he?

Yeah.

Oh, he knows he uses gear.

I still remember the episode where he was dumbfounded that you and Chubb thought that he was doing anything.

Tony?

He's a rock.

Seriously?

He is locked into being a 12-year-old pro wrestling fan for the rest of his life.

Yeah.

It's like a religious thing for him. It's like, you know, Mary was a virgin. You know, she, she gave birth to Jesus. Like, I'm not kidding. Like, he, he fucking loves pro wrestling so much that he is completely locked in.

He's a good example though of, like, a reasonably in-the-know guy who has friends in the space too. Like, you and, you know, Chubb know about this stuff.

Yeah.

And even he was, like, surprised that you guys thought that at the time.

It is funny.

Yeah.

It is funny when you think about it.

So imagine just the average person. They probably, you know.

Right.

And also, he's, you know, been very coy about it and saying.

Yeah.

Actually, not really coy. Probably deceptive, right?

Just, like, strategically perfect in his tact when it comes to avoiding it.

Yes, that's, that's the best way to describe it. Instead of saying, I've never taken any steroids, he's kind of like.

Yeah.

Look over there.

Yeah, exactly.

But everybody who knows knows.

Yeah.

You know, it's one of those things. It's like you look at him and you're like, there's no way.

Yeah.

There's, there's no way. There's just no way.

I think I I can't imagine talking about peptides and putting the feelers out there would not eventually transition to, like, you know it's it was recommended to me by my doctor to be on, you know, hormone support or whatever.

100%.

Yeah, like, I mean, you're kind of in that realm talking about it at this point, you know.

Just come out and say it. I've always just come out and said it.

Yeah.

I don't, I don't see any problem with it. But I don't have that kind of a reputation. Like, the problem with, like, being the pro wrestling thing is, like, you're, uh, you're a role model for the youth and, you know, you have to especially a guy like that, he's a giant movie star. You don't want to be telling everybody you're on gear.

He probably wasn't for, like, a big chunk of his early career.

In his early career, right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, his early career I don't think he was.

I guess the problem is when you're like, when I really became successful is when I just saw my face off.

Yeah, that's the thing. When he became a superhero.

Yeah.

I mean, the first time I met him, he had cowboy boots on, so he's even taller. And he just looked like a fucking brick shithouse.

Yeah.

I'm like, they're not even a real person. This isn't a real person. This is a superhero.

Yeah, yeah. I, uh yeah, it's crazy, dude. But I think he's still jacked.

Still.

It's just proportionally to relative to what he was. You know, it's kind of like anybody who used to be a bodybuilder or had significant amounts of even me, like, people in my videos are like, where you're, you know, you've lost everything. And it's like, okay, I'm not, like, non-existent anymore. I'm just, like, not a bodybuilder anymore. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

So if with him, it's like he's still yoked. He's, like, 230, 240 or whatever.

Yeah, the thing is, like, super gearheads will, will always criticize. Oh, you'll go to a fucking chick now.

Yeah.

They, they get crazy.

Yeah.

They said that about Bautista too.

Yeah.

But he's, like, 240.

I think he's just going to stop wearing, like, the weird tapered Gucci suits to just make him look a little bit more slender than, uh it, it's not complimentary to his, uh, physique. He's still jacked too.

Yeah, but it does it is complimentary if you didn't know what he used to look like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's what's crazy. Like, you look at him, the guy looks fucking great.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like.

Yeah, objectively, if you just look at it with no baseline.

Like, pull up a, a photo of Dave Bautista now.

And he's also just getting older.

Yeah.

Like, there's got to be some level where you get acceptance of, like, okay, you're allowed to downsize so you don't die.

Yeah, you could die.

Yeah.

That's the thing.

Yeah.

Like, you're if you're pushing gear at that age. So there's yeah, like, look at Bautista on the right. You wouldn't say that's a small guy, you know? That's not a small guy. He's a big fucking dude, but he's just slimmer now. He looks like, like if you saw an image like, Alex Pereira. You don't think, think Alex Pereira is small.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But, you know, he's 200 and fucking 40 pounds.

Yeah, if he was bodybuilding for a while and then decided to convert to, you know, MMA.

That's the thing.

Yeah.

But he also got like, that's what he looks like now. Like, that's not a small guy.

Yeah, and he's, like, I don't know how old, but I mean.

That's 2025. He's got to be 50, 56.

Mm-hmm.

56. So that's he's fucking shredded. He looks fucking gigantic.

Yeah. Yeah, I think he actually did a role recently where he bulked up.

Yeah.

Now that I think about it.

Yeah.

And he went to, like.

Yeah.

It was, like, fat weight too, which is crazy.

Yeah, that was that, uh, God, Glass Onion? Was that what it was called? There was some, some movie that he did. It was a really good movie. It was a movie where, like, some billionaire had everybody come to his island for some crazy party and there was a murder.

Mm-hmm.

What, what was that called?

That, I think, is Glass Onion.

I don't know if that's.

That was Glass Onion.

Saf or something else.

He was huge for Glass Onion. He got gigantic. He got big for something else too. But I, I think he was, like, playing I don't remember what his role was, but playing some former athlete, or something along those lines.

Yeah, he was hosty, dude.

It's weird when you get really big for a movie that sucks. You know what I mean? Or kill yourself for a movie that sucks.

Yeah, I hope it did well. Like, Jesus.

Uh, Christian Bale did that for The Machinist.

Oh.

He almost died.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

75 pounds he gained for Knock at the Cabin.

Oh, that's what it is. Not what was that movie? Show me what that looked like.

Oh, yeah.

Screen.

Knock at the Cabin. What was that movie?

It's a horror movie on I did not watch it.

Wow. A horror movie, huh?

Do you watch horror movies ever?

Do you like a 350?

Oh, yeah. I love a good horror movie.

He was 315?

Yeah.

Jesus. So now he's 240. Yeah, it's much, much more sustainable. Yeah, but that's, like, a weird weight. That's, like, what the fuck did he eat to get that big? And again, he probably did that at, like, 52, which is fucking dangerous.

Yeah.

You probably got sleep apnea. You're.

100%.

You're all fucked up. Yeah.

Yeah.

Shirley Stheron did that too recently.

She did it for Monster.

I know. No, again.

She did it again?

Yeah.

Don't do that.

Like Charlize?

Oh, God. That's real?

Yeah.

What is it for?

I forget the movie. I just saw this photo the other day. Um.

I think some women, they're probably, like, a lady like her.

Tully.

They're probably, like.

Tully?

I don't know what that is.

Might not even be new, but I just saw it.

That's such a flex when you're a hot lady to get fat and gross. And, like, when she did Monster, she shaved her eyebrows off.

Did you see the, uh, Sydney Sweeney, like, boxing?

I didn't see that.

Not that she got fat and gross, but, like, she gained some weight.

Did she?

Yeah.

I that movie got zero attention. The Christy Martin movie.

Oh, yeah?

Because it was, like, three decades past when anybody gave a shit.

Oh.

You know what I mean?

I mean, I, I at least got the impression I haven't watched it, so I could be way off base that it was kind of, like, one of those artistic, kind of, like.

Probably was.

Look at my versatility in roles kind of thing.

Yeah. How what does Sydney Sweeney look like in that movie? Did she gain weight? They might have put her in a flex.

Well, they said she gained, like, 30 pounds of muscle or something, which is, like, the typical headline nonsense.

Yeah, poor shit.

Yeah.

A woman.

But she definitely, like, you know, took it seriously and gained the weight that she needed to, to look whatever the role was for sure.

Yeah, it's such a weird thing, the, the acting world. You have to, like, change your like, Robert De Niro was the first guy to do it for Raging Bull.

You remember, uh, Tom Cruise in, uh.

Tropic Thunder?

Yeah.

Yeah, but that was a fat suit.

Well, oh, yeah, yeah, it was, like.

Yeah, I mean, because they, they made his forearms fat.

Mm-hmm.

They shaved his head. He was fucking great in that movie.

Sick movie, yeah.

Oh, fuck, what a movie.

Yeah.

That was the last bang before woke.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was the last movie that you could ever do like that before woke kicked in and, and essentially ruined great comedies.

Mm-hmm.

Because you couldn't go too far. You can't do that anymore. You just get in trouble.

Yeah, it's like back then, if you were to ask, okay, you know. Have a hit list of just, like, ready to laugh your ass off movies that are just, like, low effort. You don't have to think too much. You can just sit down and enjoy. There's a bunch of bangers from back then.

Yeah.

But it's like nowadays, I don't even know what to go to.

They don't happen anymore.

Yeah.

Like, the Farrelly Brothers movies, like Kingpin.

Mm-hmm.

Fucking great movie.

Mm-hmm.

You know, there's so much something about Mary. There's so many of those, like, outrageous, hysterical movies that it was funny. I asked Robert, uh, Downey Jr. I was like I go, "You couldn't do blackface in a movie today." He goes, "Oh, you could do it, but."

Yeah.

"What would happen afterwards is the big deal." He got it in, like, ju like, it's like the scene in a movie where the elevator door closes right before the monster gets to you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He got there just in time.

Perfect timing.

And, like, it was perfect timing where he didn't suffer from it.

No, yeah, it's, uh, crazy to see the delta and just, like I don't even know what to watch when I go on Netflix now, to be honest.

Well, with comedies, it's really fucking hard. It's really hard. The only thing that's really wild and free is stand-up comedy.

Mm-hmm.

Like, to, to do a comedy movie and just go full Tropic Thunder is almost impossible today.

Yeah.

But if somebody did it, if somebody just self-financed it, oh my God, it would fucking kill.

Yeah.

It would make so much money, and then it would open up the floodgates because people still want that, you know? They still l like, it's, it's not that you agree with everything these people are saying and doing.

Yeah.

It's comedy. Like, I don't agree with John Wick killing everybody.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like, but he's not really killing everybody. Like, it's a fucking movie.

Yeah.

And it used to be that you knew that when you went into these movies before everybody was, like, looking for everything to potentially be offended by.

Yeah.

It's just, like, ruined everything.

What do you watch now?

Oh, I don't watch comedies anymore.

But, like, just in general, do you have any, like, kind of just, like, low barrier? Just, like, sit down, turn my brain off, play stuff?

Oh, there's a lot of great stuff. You know what I watched last night, Jamie? You recommended, uh, Pluribus. Is that what it's called?

Yeah.

Holy.

I only watched the first episode, but.

Holy shit.

What a weird show, right?

Holy shit is it good.

I read it up your alley yesterday.

Holy shit is it good. It's a new Apple show.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't want to give away too much, but it, it, it has something to do with aliens. And aliens send a transmission to Earth, and there's this, like, this insane impact on society.

Mm-hmm.

But it's, like, fucking total left field movie. You don't see it coming. It's crazy or not movie, television show. I, I and again, I, like Jamie, I've only seen the first episode, but it's great.

Mm-hmm.

It's like, holy shit, it's giving you anxiety. It's so good.

Did you guys watch, uh, what was that other Apple show that was really good? It was, like, in an office setting. I can't believe I'm forgetting it.

Severance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Did you guys watch that?

Severance is great.

Yeah.

Especially the first episode or the first season.

Yeah.

First season was great. After a while, they get a little weird because you're, like, you're running this very strange game that you're doing where these people remember and don't remember.

Yeah.

And, like, and then you fuck him with the guy's head so he can remember, and then he's.

Yeah. What about, uh, Stranger Things and It? Those are two that my girlfriend has me watching right now.

I watched the first episode of Stranger Things last night as well.

Oh, yeah?

Or, or yesterday as well. That was great.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's, uh dude, it's kind of crazy how much time is between these seasons now. It's like you finish I almost, like, can't oh, don't want to commit to something because it's like, well, if I like it.

Yeah.

Fuck you to me, you know?

Fuck you for.

Two years from now.

Three years from next season.

Yeah.

Game of Thrones.

Exactly.

It's a great example of that.

Oh, dude. House of Dragon? Like, good luck seeing the next season, bro.

Well, not only that, like, unfortunately, with House of Dragons, it's got to follow Game of Thrones, which is, like, one of the best series of all time.

Yeah.

And the characters just aren't as compelling for whatever reason.

Yeah.

And so I don't know who the fuck anybody is. So the new season starts, I'm like, "Who's that?"

Yeah.

Yeah.

And maybe I just have a, like, monkey brain, but I watch it and I'm like, "I didn't see a dragon the whole fucking episode."

I need a dragon.

I feel I feel ripped off.

Yeah, I need a dragon and I need that dragon to fucking kill somebody.

Yeah.

I need to burn somebody alive. Yeah, it's, uh there's a lot of great shows now, but, but again, it you, you can only it's very hard to make a great comedy. You can make a great, like, mindless entertainment, like, fun show.

Mm-hmm.

Slow Horses, that's a great show. That's, uh is that an Apple show? I believe it is. Yeah. That's another Apple show. With Gary Oldman, it's a spy, uh, um, MI M5 or MI what is it? MI5? What do they call themselves?

Yeah, MI.

MI5.

The numbers of the person, I think it's the whatever. I don't know.

Whatever it is.

It's a spy show.

Yeah.

British, British spy show. That's a really good show too.

What is MI5?

Yeah. I mean, there's, there's a lot of great shows to watch. Like, there's, uh I think it's probably the best time ever for content if you just want to sit and be entertained.

Mm-hmm.

It's probably the best time ever because of screen streaming. Because streaming, instead of, you know, one episode, you're watching a show and it takes place over an hour, and then the next episode is totally different, a totally different subject line, different story.

Mm-hmm.

No, it's like the thing you get you get locked into these characters. Like, Sopranos, I think, was, like, the first one to really do that excellently.

Mm-hmm.

And drag it out over, you know, many, many seasons where you have this, like, running storyline.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, it's, uh I don't know. I'm kind of just, like, tuned out of TV at this point. I just watch what my girlfriend wants to watch and Stranger Things and It is the thing right now.

Yeah, I watched the new It show.

Yeah.

Yeah, I watched the first episode of that too. That looks great.

It's, like, oddly overlapping with the Stranger Things. I feel like I'm kind of watching the same show almost.

Kind of.

Like, so obviously, totally different overall stories, but, like, you know, you have kids in these kind of, like.

And evil things.

And the yeah.

I don't want to, like, wreck an episode, but they mention It, not specifically It, but a story about, like, an extraterrestrial evil being called It in a Stranger epis Stranger Things episode. I'm like, "This is a weird fucking reference for these being at the same time right now."

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. Well, they probably didn't plan that out, right?

Yeah, I don't I don't know, man.

What is it called? Welcome to Derek. Is that what it's called?

Yeah.

The new one? But it's good. That's good too.

The release date scheduling makes absolutely no sense for Stranger Things too. It's, like, in batches.

Mm-hmm.

And the next batch is coming out on, uh, Christmas.

And then the final one is New Year's.

New Year's? It's, like, the exact times you, like, probably can't bang out all the episodes or, like.

Right.

You're going to have to force your family to sit there with you and.

High school kids can though.

What's that?

That's what high school kids can. Yeah, high school kids can. They can take vacations. Well, I think Stranger Things is so big they could fucking make it so you could only watch it at 3 o'clock in the morning and it would still get 30 million views.

Yeah, yeah. But, like, just such a weird choice. I don't know.

Well, it's just weird that it takes so long to make one of those damn things that you have to wait three years in between seasons. And then you have these kids that are playing 15-year-olds and now they're fucking 30.

Yeah.

It's just kind of weird.

You can tell some of them, it's like, "How do we make you look as young as possible?"

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

You give them goofy haircuts and.

Yeah.

And then there's also, like spoiler alert, there's some computer-generated imaging and so they're using some sort of an AI program to make scenes with the kids when they were young.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you, you kind of can tell, but you kind of can't tell. It's, like, really good.

Yeah. Yeah, nowadays, it's, like, you feel like you could just AI generate the whole thing, but.

Yeah.

Wow.

Well, it's getting close.

Yeah.

You know? It's getting to the point where, you know, there's no excuse for waiting three years because you could have AI generate scripts and do it in an hour.

Yeah. What about, uh, F1? Are you guys following it at all right now?

The show or the actual racing?

No, just the actual racing.

I went to the F1 that was in Austin. It was amazing.

This year?

Yeah.

Okay.

It's awesome.

For, uh I think right now, it's, uh, the first time in the last 15 years they've had three drivers coming down to the final race to win the championship between them, and the final race is this weekend.

Oh, really?

Yeah, it's, like, really.

Where is it?

Uh, I think it's in, uh is it in Abu Dhabi? I don't know. That might have been the race that just happened, but it was nuts, dude. It's, uh because right now, you had McLaren, who was, like, a shoo-in to have their main driver or at least the guy who was in the lead take it, but they're refusing to favor one over the other, which is a typical strategy for whoever's in the lead. You'll have the other one kind of, like, block people for them to make sure they win the driver's championship.

They're refusing to do that?

Yeah, they're, like, making sure they can have equal opportunities to win, but the net result might now be none of them win and a guy from Red Bull takes the thing.

Oh, that's crazy. Is it because the drivers aren't willing to do that?

Uh, I guess, but also just lack of enforcement from the pit boss, like, team guy who's, like, supposed to be enforcing team, uh, principles and whatnot.

It is kind of funky that that's how you win.

Yeah.

You have someone it's a team game?

I mean, like, there's a.

But it's not.

There's team, uh, generated points between the two drivers, which can result in the, uh, like, team championship.

Right.

But the thing that most people actually care about is who's the best driver in the world.

Right.

And that will be coming down to one person. Even if it's a guy from a team that won the thing, they're still competing against each other, and sometimes they can get pretty reckless where they're, you know, one is not willing to compromise and he'll, like, blow the whole thing up to make sure that he has the best opportunity, understandably, but it's also, like, you guys are getting paid tens of millions of dollars. Maybe you should listen to your fucking guy who's telling you what to do.

Yeah, fair enough.

Sure.

But I mean, like, part of it is kind of like that. That's, like, part of the strategy.

Oh, I get it.

Yeah.

I get it, but maybe we should abandon that strategy because if, if, if it is a race, it's.

Yeah, I guess it's just problematic because it's so bandwidth intensive too to manage the two drivers that if they're equally trying to win and only one is more likely to, what may very well happen on this weekend is they both don't win.

Interesting.

Yeah, so.

I got a tour of the McLaren, uh, pit last year.

Oh, yeah.

And, uh, they, they showed me, like, all the different technology that's involved, and they gave me a, like, a rundown of how much engineering is involved in these things and explained everything. It's crazy.

Yeah.

And they're all just trying to shave tenths of seconds out of turns, and then it all accumulates over the, the course of the race.

Yeah, it's, like, pretty psychotic when you look at what the differential is and kind of, like, what really separates these guys. It's often just, like, minuscule amounts and.

Mm-hmm.

Just, like, the littlest mistake, you know, can wreck.

What are those guys on? That's what I want to know. Do they test them?

Uh, they are tested, but not to the rigor of, like, an Olympic.

Do they test them for gorilla mind?

I'm sure they're probably using it.

This is probably a good thing for them to take.

Probably for something that's not banned, yeah. But, um.

Is any of this stuff banned, do you think, in Formula 1?

No, none of it. This is all, like, very straight-edge, uh, like, really tried and true nootropics that work through kind of, like, endogenous pathways or things that otherwise backfill neurotransmitters, similar to, like, the creatine deficiency that we talked about. If you backfill it, you can otherwise, you know, have a readily available source of phospho-creatine to offset ATP deficits, L-tyrosine, stuff like that, similar just in regards to dopamine, for example.

I'm, uh an hour in and I feel it. It's legit.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's very legit. And again, it's very delicious, so congratulations on that.

Oh, thank you.

Um, those guys lose a ton of weight too during those races.

Oh, dude, so much water loss.

Yeah, because you're fucking hot as shit in those suits so you don't burn alive if you crash.

Yeah, so new different strategies, like hyperhydration, using things like liquid glycerol could be impactful to retain more water.

Do they wear a diaper?

I don't know, but, uh.

How long is the race?

Um, it could be it kind of I think it depends, but it's, like, upwards of an hour, an hour and a half, so.

Yeah, just piss yourself.

Yeah.

Yeah, just.

If you got to.

Sit in your own pee for an hour and a half. Yeah, I kind of you would have to.

Yeah.

I would imagine with that kind of money on the line, just fucking let it go, baby.

Yeah, I don't even.

Yeah.

Know if you'd have to though, if you were just, like, perspiring like a motherfucker.

You might.

They come out drenched.

Right.

Yeah, and they've lost, like, tons of weight.

That's a good point. But sometimes in the in the sauna, I have to pee.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah, sometimes I'm, like, 15 minutes into a sauna session, I'm like, "Goddamn, I can't hold it." So I got to go open the door and go out and piss outside and then climb back in again.

Have you ever tried glycerol for hyperhydration?

No, what is that?

It's, uh, just, like, straight-up glycerol. It's, like, a sugar, but it also has a hyperhydrating effect that you can hold upwards of an extra, like, pound of body water if you have it as a supplement. So some endurance athletes will use it before events in order to retain more, uh, water in a way that is not it enhances, like, thermal regulation, your ability to tolerate stress. You don't lose as you don't dehydrate as fast. There's a lot of upsides for its kind of, like, unique application. Maybe even avoiding pissing at nighttime could be useful.

Really?

Potentially, yeah.

Oh, that would help because I always have to pee.

Hmm.

Yeah, one thing that st that helps me, uh, is sauna before bed though. Sauna before bed, I can generally sleep through the night.

Oh, yeah?

Yeah, so I'll do, like, a session about an hour before I go to sleep and no water after that.

Oh, yeah.

That usually does it.

Yeah, if you do a water cutoff that's, like, pretty regimented, it's probably the best overall strategy.

As long as you make sure you hydrate in the morning. So I'm pretty diligent about that. First step in the morning, um, amino acids with water.

Mm-hmm.

Like, I do that 99% of the time, like, first thing, before coffee, before anything.

And do you put electrolytes in it?

Yeah, yeah. I take, uh, Gary Breka's stuff. It's called Perfect Aminos.

Okay.

It's aminos and electrolytes. I get that in first thing in the morning. Just, you know, get it out of the way.

Mm-hmm.

And I didn't used to for the longest time. I would just hit the gym right away and just drink water when I was in there.

Damn.

But I feel a difference.

What about I thought step one was cold plunge.

Yeah, it depends. Um, I haven't cold plunged in the last three weeks because I got some stem cells.

Oh.

Um, and, uh, I'm still sauna-ing, so it seems like there's a lot of controversy about this in terms of, like, what you should and shouldn't do post-stem cell injection. I have, uh, a very minor Achilles tear. Uh, when I was elk hunting in September, I, I twisted my ankle pretty bad, and I didn't think anything of it. Uh, I stopped limping after, like, 15 or 20 minutes, and I was like, "I think I'm okay." And, uh, I have and I was wearing, uh at the time, I was wearing very light boots.

Yeah.

It's fucking brutal. And I, I twisted one of my ankles, and then the next day, I put on, uh, a much higher, more rigid boot with great ankle support, and that was fine for the rest of the trip. But then.

That's the fucking worst when you just got to, like, stare at the ground the entire time you're walking because the littlest off-step, you just roll your ankle or.

Not with that. You go down.

Yeah, yeah.

You know, you could die. Um, it's we were in pretty steep country in Utah, but, um, interestingly, I didn't notice anything was wrong until I'd get into a push-up position.

Hmm.

Which is weird. So when, you know, I do 100 push-ups every morning, 100 push-ups, 100 bodyweight squats, that's my warm-up before I do anything. And so when I got into, like, a high push-up position with, like, my butt up in the air, it, it's a lot of stretching on the Achilles, and my left Achilles was fucking killing me, like, sharp pain. I was like, "Fuck, this hurts." And I thought maybe I maybe it needs to stretch out, so I did some, like, jump rope. Doesn't bother me. Jump rope doesn't bother me. Nothing else bothers me. But that position bothered me, and it was bothering me for, like, five weeks.

Hmm.

And so, uh, I got a I got it scanned, and there's a minor tear in my Achilles, and Achilles tears are a fucking nightmare. You know, if you, you blow out your Achilles, that's a nightmare. It's a long rehabilitation process.

Yeah, blood flow to the area is pretty.

Especially at 58.

Yeah.

It's a fucking it's that's a long recovery. I was like, "I'm looking at a year before I could do everything again." Then you're you lose all your gains, all your cardio ga everything. You can't move right.

Yeah.

It's you're fucked. So, uh, I got a stem cell shot in there, and there's a lot of debate about when you should be able to cold plunge after stem cells. And a lot of, uh, the literature seems to say three months. It doesn't seem to think sauna there's, there's more indication that sauna is probably therapeutically beneficial for, uh, for the stem cells because the idea is that these stem cells are still in the area trying to heal the tissue.

Hmm.

When you cold plunge, you kill them. But when you're doing sauna, you're increasing blood flow, and it might help them. So what they said is, like, "I wouldn't do anything for a couple weeks."

Mm-hmm.

Nothing. And then after that, just sauna for a while.

Yeah.

So I haven't done a cold plunge in over a month.

Seems excessive, not that.

I'm scared. I'm scared to go back in.

Yeah.

Because I was so used to it.

Oh, you got to get over the hurdle again.

I'm so scared. Every time I do it, I almost don't do it. Every fucking time I do it, I almost don't do it.

Yeah.

Um, so, like, for the past month, it's just been get up and just work out and then sauna afterwards.

What's the, uh, rehab stack? Is it any different than what you were already doing, or is it kind of like.

BBC 157, TB 500, that's it. It's definitely improved.

BBC local in the.

Yes.

Achilles?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right there.

Or you just pinch the subcu area and kind of like.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

I shove it right in there. Uh, I think local is the way to go.

Yeah.

I've done it subcutaneously, like, in the side and love handles. Mm, I don't it doesn't have the same effect.

Yeah, if you can get it to the area, it's like, why not?

Mm-hmm.

You know?

Yeah, I think I think BBC 157 locally is the way to go. Uh, but it's definitely getting a lot better. It doesn't doesn't hurt at all anymore.

Yeah.

I'm just I'm just making sure it fully heals up.

Yeah, interesting note on kind of, like, the hormone support stuff. Uh, this past month, uh, the FDA actually removed the most of the black box warnings off of women's HRT products.

Yes, yes.

Pretty amazing.

Yeah, really amazing because so many women were lied to for so long. They were told that there's all these negative effects of supplementing your hormones. But my God, how many fucking people just said lost quality of life for fucking nothing, for no science at all. It's just complete horseshit. But there's so much bad fucking science out there, man.

Yeah.

Like, that's it's a real problem. It's hot as shit in here. There's so much bad science out there, man.

It, it almost gets to a point where you almost have to look at things through the lens of, "Does this sound like nonsense?"

Yeah.

Like.

Well, and then where do you go? Like, who do you trust? You know, unless you you're well-versed in who the respectable online people are.

Yeah, like, you might see a, you know, however many studies that say fill in the blank exotic compound is, like, totally ineffective, and it's like.

Mm-hmm.

Who was it tested on? For how long? What was the dosage?

Right.

You know, and, like, it might be a completely useless interpretation for your specific nuanced scenario. And if you hear hordes of anecdotes from everyone in your circle you trust who actually knows what they're talking about, has been in the trenches, knows their body well.

Yeah.

Like, you can't you can't really ignore that.

Well, what was the narrative about female hormones, and why did they why did they do that for so long? Do you know?

So I think it was in the '90s, the Women's Health Initiative were assessing the viability and safety profile of, uh, hormone replacement therapy. And I might butcher this a little bit, but in general, the, you know, overall context is relatively accurate, I'm sure. And it was, like, of 1,000 women or something, they tested HRT when I say HRT, I put it in air quotes because, like.

Estrogen.

Not even, like, human bioidentical estrogen. It was, like, equine horse piss derived estrogens.

Horse piss?

Yeah.

For real?

Yeah, so it was, like, literally the most synthetic, you know, animal-derived shitty estrogen that is not bioidentical at all and, uh, also a synthetic progestin that is not bioidentical to progesterone. It's just, like, a progestin analog, essentially, that fulfills activity at the receptor but is otherwise, like, you know, the equivalent of putting you on, like, a microdose of nandrolone or a microdose of, you know, fill in the blank, uh, progestin, uh, derived compound, um, or 19 nor derived compound that facilitates progestagenic activity but just is not progesterone.

And, like.

So everybody got panicky.

Yeah, and, like, I might be misinterpreting one or two variables, but, like, high level, that's essentially what it was, and it caused mass hysteria and panic and basically dictated the facilitation of black box warnings being put on, uh, hormone therapy. So the most aggressive FDA warning that shows basically any clinician that's looking at it or anybody who's going to, like, take the risk of using it, this is the most dangerous drug you could use with the highest risk of, like, lethal side effects potential.

Hmm.

And then on top of that, it just, like, wasn't representative of what is actual replacement therapy with what is the hormone you would be producing naturally. So for years, you know, we went thinking, "Oh, it's going to cause, uh, clotting issues. It's going to cause cancer. It's going to do this. It's going to do that." And only in the most nuanced edge case scenarios is it justified because, you know, that person just absolutely has a quality of life deterioration that is so significant that it's worth it to take the risk to use hormone replacement therapy. And it's, like, now similar to some of the, like, common sense interpretation of things.

Yeah.

Like, you are essentially giving yourself a worse quality of life inevitably and deteriorating your health, um, unquestionably. Like, with men, there is some semblance of residual activity you can maintain, and some men maintain vibrant, you know, reasonable testosterone production till old age. But with women, it's kind of like, like, right when the lights shut off.

Yeah.

Like.

Drops off a cliff.

Yeah.

It's interesting how the initial narratives get stuck in the public zeitgeist forever.

Mm-hmm.

Like, the initial narrative for testosterone replacement was you can get testicular cancer, prostate cancer.

Mm-hmm.

And it was just so many people, like, "I don't want to mess around with testosterone replacement because I could get cancer."

Yeah.

And then Brigham Bueller explained that study.

Yeah.

And explained the, the real results of that study. And it's, like, it didn't show that anybody got prostate cancer from it. It's just not true.

Yeah, and it's, like, even the mechanism by which they argue it would cause it doesn't even make mechanistic sense because it's, like, the only way you're going to increase the prostate growth is via bringing and it's, like, of course, when you use hormones that are androgens, like, you're going to grow tissues that they're exposed to, but it doesn't mean it's a bad thing necessarily. And if you're a hypogonadal male who has low T and it goes up to just the threshold of barely acceptable, that's where the growth essentially stops.

Giant, giant dicks.

Yeah.

Imagine if that.

We, we wish.

Didn't have it.

Well, how come it grows enlarged clitorises in women?

Because the physiology is essentially interchangeable in that you could have gone in any direction dependent on your exposure to these hormones.

Oh, right.

So it's not.

It's why.

Yeah, so if, if a man exposes himself to significant amounts of estrogen and has no has hormone deprivation, there are some irreversible anatomical changes because they've already, like, matured that will not go away. But, like, with women, it's, like, the inverse, and you could otherwise get closer to that, like, extreme scenario where you're once your voice box gets to a certain, like, anatomical, uh, development, you can't necessarily go back to your high-pitched, you know.

Yeah, that's a real problem with detransitioners. They keep that voice forever.

Yeah.

And it's the real problem is it never even becomes a man voice. It just becomes weird. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, it's like the in-between.

Trans men never develop a voice like, you know, Isaac Hayes.

Yeah, that's, uh, one of the one of the tough things with HRT too is, like, as much as I think it's so amazing that it's being, you know, educated about and there's widespread attention being brought to the importance of it, there's also the cowboy docs who almost go to the hyperextreme of optimization and are putting women on aggressive dosages of testosterone saying, "You've been lied to. You know, this is actually what you need to feel good." And for a woman who's been, you know, asexual for years and feels, you know, has no energy and they are told this guy is, you know, the cutting-edge doc who everyone sees, they will probably trust his guidance.

Whoa.

And I had to, like, cut the cord on it. I was like, "What the hell is this?" And her testosterone levels were, like, in the, like, 300s plus.

Whoa.

Yeah, so, like, you're essentially low, low normal healthy male territory, not, like, actually, but, like, on a clinical reference range, and absolutely potential for masculinization.

Yeah, and also horny as fuck.

Potentially.

Yeah.

Yeah, but it's, like, you didn't need to go there probably to get to horny as fuck.

My wife has a friend who got on it, and, uh, she's a, a British lady, and she had a very funny phrase. She goes, "His stuff makes me feel like a bloke." She goes, "I'm horny like a bloke."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it, it testosterone can be helpful in women for sure, and it's an overlooked, uh, hormone that is absolutely important in women just the same as it is in men. It's just, like, you got to kind of know what you're getting yourself into too.

Yeah.

When it comes to, like, what is reasonable for a doctor to tell you you need and at what, like, concentrations you should expect, you know, blood level targets to be. Because if you just go in blind, you might end up with the most exotic, you know, like, Beverly Hills doc who thinks you should be on, like, the craziest cocktail ever.

Oh.

Because he knows you're going to feel it.

Right.

And respond really, really well immediately, but then also might just, like, fuck you up permanently.

Well, this is also the problem with transitioners. When, when you're becoming a trans man, right, um, the initial impact is you, uh, uh, alleviation of anxiety and euphoria. You start feeling great.

Hmm.

Because that's what testosterone does for you. It doesn't mean you're supposed to have that.

Mm-hmm.

Like, your, your body's going, "What the fuck is this?" And now you're, you know, essentially you're, you're changing the whole cocktail of your body, and you're, you know.

Yeah.

And you're going to give permanent changes that if you make a decision when you're 14, 15 years old, they put you on this stuff. Those detransitioners are some of the saddest stories, man.

Hmm.

Because they've become sterile. They'll never have children, and, you know, and they're lose their tits because they go to a doctor who thinks you should have your mammary glands chopped off when you're 15.

Mm-hmm.

It's fucking so we're in the weirdest of times with all this stuff.

Yeah.

Because it's, like, what gets accepted and not accepted and what, you know, what become again, like, we were talking about the zeitgeist when a when a thought gets out there, and then it's very difficult to move away from that. And it's, like, "Oh, you're affirming your true self."

Mm-hmm.

Like, really? With, with synthetic hormones that didn't exist in your body before? That's, that's your true self?

Yeah.

Are you fucking sure? It sounds like this might be a social contagion.

Yeah.

That is, like, sweeping through the land. And one of the things that's really interesting is the, um, the drop-off of kids identifying as trans.

Hmm.

Is it coincides directly with Elon buying Twitter.

Oh, wow.

Yeah, like, immediately when you because you used to not be able to talk about it.

Hmm.

You used to, like, literally, if you if you deadname someone from Twitter, meaning, like, if you changed your name to Dominique and, uh, I called you Derek, I, I could get banned from Twitter for life.

Oh.

For, forever.

That's crazy.

Just by using your old name. Like, if I called Bruce Caitlyn Jenner Bruce.

Yeah.

I would get banned from Twitter for life.

Damn.

Because it's nuts.

Yeah.

Like, it but it's, like, this very bizarre social contagion, this weird mind virus that went through the whole country.

Hmm.

And everybody just signed up for it, like, and no one wanted to be a bigot. It's like, "Oh, I don't want to be a bigot."

Yeah, I think as much as I think access to drugs is super, like, you should have the full liberty to do whatever you want, you that's where the importance of educating yourself is so critical because you.

Yeah.

Really don't know what you're subjecting yourself to. If you have an immature brain too, you have not.

Exactly.

Even had full, like, frontal lobe development to try and think you're going to make a sound decision with how you're going to impact your lifelong, uh, physiology. It's, like, probably.

You can't even have a tattoo. It's not even legal to get a tattoo and you get your penis removed. It's fucking crazy.

Oh.

It's fucking crazy.

Yeah.

Oh, they know. Some, some people know as early as three. I've had conversations with people on this podcast. I have friends that have trans kids, and they knew right away. Like, are you sure they didn't have a fucking insane mother and a gay child?

Mm-hmm.

Because that might be what was going on.

Yeah.

And now this gay child will never have an orgasm again because you've convinced them they're not a gay child, that they're a woman, and which is, in fact, completely homophobic.

Yeah. Yeah, interesting extreme of the scenario, but maybe on the opposite is guys who are in their in adolescence who are so hypereducated that they use the knowledge to biohack their development into becoming as maximally tall and, like, infrastructurally sound as adults as possible.

Right, right, right, right.

And that's a really interesting predicament because it's, like, any, like, reasonably ethical doctor will be like, "There's no fucking way I'm touching that, like, case of any overseeing anybody's care or what's doing that kind of thing."

I was watching a podcast about this where this guy was talking about his son, and he's short, and his son is short.

Yeah.

And his son's friends were also short, and their parents got the kid on growth.

Yeah.

When they were and they grew, like, a lot bigger than the parents.

Yeah.

Which is Alexander Kurellin.

Hmm.

Do you know Kurellin's story?

Uh.

They call him the experiment. He's the freakiest wrestler that has ever existed.

I know who it is, but I didn't know that specifically he was in adolescence that he was subjected to.

Well, this is speculation on my part.

Yeah, just probably.

Have you seen my photo that I have out in the gym?

Uh.

It's the photo that I put up to remind myself of what a pussy I really am.

Is that when he's, like, about the fucking tallest that do?

He's fucking a pussy nut guy?

Yeah.

That picture, that one.

Yeah, it's a famous one.

That guy was 300 fucking pounds and moved like a cat, like, unbelievably mobile and flexible and had, like, an insane record.

Yeah.

I think it was, like, 281 or 282. Like, fucking insane.

Yeah.

Like, one of the most dominant wrestlers of all time. But there's, um, they call him in Russia, they would call him the experiment.

Yeah.

And you see his parents. His parents are, like, 5'5", 5'7". Like, small people.

Yeah.

And he's this fucking behemoth of a person.

Yeah.

And of course, the Soviet doping program is legendary. The movie Icarus highlights that, you know, but everybody knew about that. The Eastern bloc weightlifters, the females, they, they set records that were never broken again. These women completely became men.

Yeah.

You know, like, there's, there's a lot of evidence that they were doing that to their athletes. The fact that they wouldn't do it to their most dominant wrestler in the history of the fucking sport and the guy who was the absolute biggest freak in the history of wrestling.

Mm-hmm.

Like, there was nobody like that guy.

Yeah, we should talk about some of those Russian drugs. I heard, uh, you bring up trimetazidine with somebody the other day. But before that, have you ever heard of the Lionel Messi story?

No.

Okay, so did you know that he was destined to be a dwarf if he didn't get on huge amounts of growth hormone?

Really?

Yeah, so he got supplied with pharmaceutical growth hormone by the team that was trying to get him to basically be with them.

Well, he's a small guy as it is, right?

Yeah, so he grew to what is otherwise an acceptable adult height, but he otherwise was destined to be literally a dwarf, whatever the socially acceptable term is.

Wow.

Yeah, so they either paid for his pharmaceutical growth hormone and admitted like, got it for him, paid for it, made sure he was taking it, or he didn't become the greatest, some argue, you know, the football player of all time.

Well, it's also you have to take into consideration, like, how much of an effect did that have on his performance?

I mean, yeah, definitely.

Because, like, that guy could do things that no one else can do.

Well, he definitely wouldn't have grown to the height he is and had the.

But it's not just the height. It's the, the explosive movement, his a-ability to change direction, like, better than anybody.

Yeah, the infrastructure is obviously supporting of it. I don't necessarily know yeah, it would be impossible to, like, really quantify that. There's no, like, you know, uh, A/B test of it.

Right.

Yeah.

Right, there's no placebo-controlled trial.

But you know, if he didn't do it, he would not be even playing.

Wow.

Yeah.

I did not know that.

Yeah, it's probably one of the most overlooked but wild, uh, cases of a professional athlete who, like, needed to go, like, full board to the tits when it comes to.

How old was he when they did that to him?

Like, a young teen, if not a child.

I was thinking 11 years old.

Yeah.

Wow.

Yeah, and it was, like, you either take this at the dose that is going to, like, push you to, you know, maximal IGF-1 output territory, and we get you to as high of maturation as possible, or you're not going to be a professional player.

How tall is Messi now?

5'7".

Wow.

Yeah.

That's crazy.

Yeah.

Well, you know, I, I told you the Yoel Romero story, right?

Probably.

Yoel Romero is the biggest athletic freak I've ever seen in my life, and I've seen a lot of athletic freaks.

Yeah.

Like, Yoel Romero, when he I believe it was in Australia, he was, uh, fighting, um, and after the fight, goes to a doctor to get checked up. He had a, a fractured orbital. He had a, you know, rough fight. Um, the doctor examines him and then says to the UFC, "Where did you get this guy?"

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Did I tell you this?

Yeah, and he's like.

And they go, "Hey, he's great, right?" He goes, "No, no, no. His tendons in his eyes are three times the size of a normal person."

Oh, right, right, right.

They said his orbital bone is already healing.

That's crazy.

Like, what did they do to him?

Yeah.

Because he was on the Cuban Olympic program.

Yeah.

You know, and the way he talks about it, like, the program was, like, so regimented. In fact, they had tiers of athletes, and the, um, the highest tier ate three times a day.

Hmm.

The tier below that ate two times a day. So it motivated you literally to get more food.

Wow.

To compete. And you're competing with these guys that their entire life is wrestling.

Yeah.

That is everything. And it, it literally can feed their family. It's a matter, matter of whether or not their family gets food, whether it changes your social status. And he goes, "And because of that, you become a machine."

That's how he was saying it.

Yeah, that's right.

I could do I could do a good Yoel.

"You become a machine."

And he's the biggest freak of all time. In fact, everybody who fights him says hitting him hurts.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, what, um, Robert Whitaker said is like hitting metal.

Hmm.

He goes, "Dude," he's like, "You hit the guy. He doesn't feel like a normal person."

Hmm.

He goes, "It's like you're hitting metal."

He's still competing, but in, uh, was it one?

Dirty boxing. His dirty boxing was his latest one.

Oh, man.

Um, he's doing he's almost 50.

Yeah.

He's jacked as fuck. Now he's a heavyweight, full six-pack, almost 50 years old, fucking gigantic. I mean, now he's got to be geared up. I mean, I would imagine because he's in these, like, fringe leagues that, you know.

You'd think.

Their drug test is a fucking multiple choice.

Ah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What do you want?

That's right.

"I'm on Jesus." He had that famous speech. He was saying, "Don't forget about Jesus."

Hmm.

He goes, "Don't forget Jesus."

Yeah.

And everybody thought he was saying, "No, gay Jesus is not gay."

Oh, my God.

And so they thought he was homophobic.

Hmm.

He's like, "No, no, no, no, no. No forget Jesus."

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But he was saying, "Don't forget Jesus."

Yeah.

Like, "Jesus is important." And everybody's like, "Oh, my God. Yoel Romero used his platform to say homophobic things after a fight." Like.

No, he can't speak English very well.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, and he's religious.

I feel that yeah. That guy, he, uh, I always felt like if he just kind of, like, threw himself into the fire more, he could just, like, crush it.

The problem is cardio. When you're carrying around that much weight.

Hmm.

You know, first of all, wrestling, his wrestling was above and beyond anybody else.

But he would just, like, slug when he didn't need to.

Mm-hmm.

Well, they get in love with knocking people out, first of all. And that guy's explosive capacity was.

Yeah.

He knocked out Chris Weidman, one of the fucking scariest flying knees I've ever seen in my life. It was a great fight up until the moment he put Chris Weidman into the shadow realm, but he hit him with this flying knee, just explode. He lows you. So what Israel wrestler.

Yeah, he looks like he's tired or whatever.

Then he jumps on you.

Yeah.

And his ability to close the distance is so it's like, you think about wrestlers. Like, um, did you see Bo Nichols last knockout?

Um.

He knocked out Rodolfo Vieira with a head kick.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

It was spectacular. But what Bo Nick Bo Nichols is an elite wrestler, like, a top-shelf blue-chip wrestler. And one of the things that wrestlers have is this ability to close distance because they're, you know, they're on the outside, and they can just shoot doubles. So that explosion naturally lends itself to closing the distance and striking because, you know, it's the same kind of thing. If you develop good striking and Rodolfo Vieira, who's, like, fucking super jacked, but he's a, a gee jiu-jitsu guy. Gee jiu-jitsu is all about strength and control.

Mm-hmm.