Transcript of #2576 - Dr. Peter McCullough

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Dr. McCullough, good to see you, sir.

Great to be back.

You were the first guy that got me canceled, I think, about COVID.

Is that true?

Yeah. It's you. It's either you or Malone. One of you guys was the beginning of, like, all the—like the White House and CNN and everything. When they all came down on me, it was, uh, it was your misinformation that all turned out to be true.

I'm so sorry.

Don't be sorry at all. It was great. It turned out well, uh, for me. But it was, uh, fascinating to watch. What has it been like for you these—we haven't seen each other in five years. Um, what has it been like?

Well, but, you know, before I came on the first time, had anybody accused you of misinformation before that?

No, not really. No. I don't believe so.

Had the word even come up?

No. I don't mean perhaps. I doubt it, though, because we never really talked about anything serious. You know, it was the—the COVID crisis was, like, the first time I was ever really confronted with a very obvious psyop. Like, it was very obvious that we were being fed some very filtered information, we were being gaslit, and there was a narrative that you were being forced to push, and I wasn't going with it. And when I experienced the pushback, I mean, like, like I said, from the fucking White House, like, watching the White House press secretary saying that Spotify needs to do more to censor me, and watching—I mean, Spotify got calls from the president, they got calls from my—my management got calls from the White House.

You know, before 2020, before the pandemic, the word misinformation never appeared in the medical literature.

Really?

Never. And in fact, by 2021, it's called a mesh term. Now it's an official term in the National Library of Medicine. There are scientific instruments that measure misinformation, that you can actually, uh, assess someone on a COVID-19 misinformation scale.

Really?

So I looked into this and I said, where in the world did this come from? This—this word. And you can find it in the English language around 1500. And then, uh, I can tell you, during Nazi Germany, it was Goebbels, who's run the Office of Propaganda, oh my Lord, what a useful word they found it as. A propaganda word. So if someone you didn't like, you could accuse them of spreading misinformation.

Mm.

So as soon as you make that accusation, you achieve moral superiority. That you hold information the person you don't like is spreading misinformation.

Mm.

It became very powerful then, believe it or not, in 2018, it was word of the year in Webster's, uh, dictionary of—of all the words. It became such a powerful word. So it was ready to go and be weaponized in the pandemic. You and I just were on the, uh, we were on the naivete side of things. We didn't see this coming. And we went on, and before you know it, these were—this was flying around.

I never would have imagined that talking about things that are facts would become such a problem. And then there's the reality that no one ever corrected all the things that they got wrong. Whether it's Rachel Maddow or all these different people on television, or even the White House itself. All these people that were saying things that turned out to absolutely be incorrect. There was never any—there was never any correction. There was never any.

Did anybody say they're sorry?

No. No. Nobody ever said they were sorry. No.

Not a single person?

No. Not even people that I know that were wrong about it. Not even people that I know that were wrong about it that got vaccine injured.

What other circumstance in human life does it greatly impact people, large numbers of people, and in the end, no one apologizes for harm? Can you think of anything?

Not—not offhand.

How about war?

Right.

Right? Oh, we went to war. No one ever says we made a mistake. No one ever said we're sorry. No one ever apologizes when it's a big-time thing like war. And this pandemic, as it rolled out, in many ways, it had the characteristics of war in the sense of we were invaded by a virus, and the ac—the response was to behave like we were at war. And a lot of the, uh, the statutes that we relied upon, the BioShield Act and the PrEP Act, what have you, you know, they used military terms.

Yeah. For the first time in your career.

For the first time in my career. I said, well, what am I going to do? Well, I have to make some decisions. It's not about shooting rifles, but I have to make medical decisions. And that's what I did. And I made the—what I thought was the best decisions I could make. And before you knew it, as you learned, I got in deep trouble.

Yeah. Is that the first time that you can recall where people were getting in trouble for correctly treating people that helped them? Because by the use of hydroxychloroquine, by the use of ivermectin, they became so controversial that doctors were getting in trouble and losing their licenses for providing patients with medication that had not just efficacy, but there was—there was real studies that showed that, especially Udha Pradesh in India, there's studies that showed that people that use these medications were more protected and were safer.

All over the world, Joe. This happened all over the world instantaneously. That was the most astounding thing to me. Is that, wait a minute, how can the entire world agree on something all at once? And talk about people losing their license. There were thousands of doctors in France and Australia that literally just—it was almost immediate if they tried to help somebody with COVID. And before you know it, you know, in—in early 2020, the Federal Trade Commission came out with the COVID misinformation policy.

Just studying.

Just studying. He was putting the results on his website. That's all Nate was doing. This went on for four years. They tried to drain him dry on legal fees.

What—what—what was the charges? If—so if they're suing him, what are they saying that he's doing incorrectly?

It's violation of their policies. That in a sense, these policies were corrected, were erected. I faced the same thing with the American Bar and Internal Medicine. I had no idea a policy was coming. But as soon as this policy is violated, now there's an opportunity for the government or whatever authority it is to inflict harm. A professional reprisal against him in the case of the Federal Trade Commission happened to Dr. Eric Nepudi, who's running a company.

What—what do you think was—what—how did it get uniformly adopted across the entire world? Like, what was done to get all these different countries to put all these different rules in line?

All at once. You know, in my first book, uh, I had—I had to sit down and write a book. This, what happened was so mind-blowing. And you're actually in the book, uh, two of them.

I'm in the book?

Yeah.

Oh, nice.

The first one is Courage to Face COVID-19. And the title, we come up with this term called the biopharmaceutical complex. And what do we mean by that? Somehow in the world, there was a formation of very powerful entities. And we believe at the core is the World, uh, Health Organization, the World Economic Forum, the Gates Foundation, the Rockefeller Trust, the, uh, Wellcome Trust, Gavi, CEPI, Unitaid, all regulatory agencies.

Shocker.

Jeremy Ferrar, who was at the Wellcome Trust, who's now the lead scientist at the WHO. And I give credit to investigative author Lisa Myron in Toronto, who investigated this. So listen, the world doesn't agree on anything. Can't agree on currency, can't agree on policy, can't agree on anything. How can they completely agree on this pandemic response? She believes that the communication centers, the WHO, you have, uh, about 190 countries, uh, you have 140 national focal points, which are branches of the WHO.

Does vaccination in other countries have the same protection from liability that they have in the United States?

I don't know. I don't know. I know.

That's a problem.

Well, in 1986, uh, that's when it was memorialized as.

Yeah.

The liability protection. And, and you know, it, it became what product can essentially be mandated for an entire population and be free of liability?

Right. And then how can you take a product that's not a vaccine and call it a vaccine, which is essentially a gene therapy? I mean, this is not—it's not a technical vaccine in terms of, like, how we have defined vaccines in the past.

The connections here are extraordinary. So let's take Moderna as an example. So Stefan Bainzel—have you had him on your show?

No.

You shouldn't have had him.

I didn't know he existed. Who is he?

He's the CEO of Moderna.

Right.

He's a—he's a good-looking guy from Europe who's got, uh, a really intriguing accent. You know, he.

He's the CEO of Moderna. Does he have horns? Does he have horns?

Well, listen to this. He's a pharmaceutical representative, then he becomes a distribution supervisor for one of the bigger companies, and he's in Belgium. In 2007, he gets, uh, uh, he gets a master's degree. He's well-trained in the United States and Europe as a business executive. He gets the job as CEO of BiomMU. BiomMU is a big lab company. They're like Abbott Diagnostics or Roche. They're a big company. 2007.

Do you have any suspicions that it was leaked on purpose?

I think it came out by accident.

So you think they were working on it, someone got sick, and it just got out?

Yeah.

Just bad safety protocols?

There are papers now written on this, and we featured it on our, uh, Substack focal points. Nick Holscher has, uh. Of these biolabs, there's leaks all the time. You can barely contain these things. They're very contagious. They're working with very contagious virus, bacteria, fungi, spores, different pathogens. They depend on meticulous ventilation, sterilization. You, you see these pictures of people wearing these moon suits.

Yeah, we actually went to the one in Galveston.

Yeah.

My friend Duncan and I were filming, um, Joe Rogan questions everything.

Mm-hmm.

It was a sci-fi show that was on in the, like, 2012 or something. We went down there because we were, we were, we did an episode on biowarfare. We talked to a guy from the former Soviet Union that talked about the biowarfare program that Russia had. It was spooky. It was spooky being in that Galveston lab and these people walking around with these moon suits on, with, you know, the vacuum hoses attached to them. It was very weird.

Well, listen, if people started getting really sick on Galveston Island, that'd be the first place that I would look. I wouldn't.

What about the wet lab?

I wouldn't go to a fish lab.

Wet market.

I wouldn't go to a wet market. I wouldn't go down the street to a restaurant. I'd go right to that lab.

That sounds racist, what you just said.

Well, Joe, I gotta tell you what, Peter Daszak, who was leading the EcoHealth Alliance, who was helping Barrick coordinate with the Chinese, this is astounding. He's involved in this. You have Anthony Fauci leading the NIAID, and this the funding organization that's funding this research. Barrick is the mastermind at Chapel Hill. He knows more about coronaviruses than anybody. They get a lot of contracts, uh, to work on coronaviruses. They take the research to Wuhan.

Well, it was just bizarre that more people didn't push back against it. And, you know, credit to Jon Stewart. Did you ever see that Jon Stewart segment?

Yeah.

On Colbert.

Yeah.

Where he was making fun of the fact that, like, maybe it came from the Wuhan coronavirus lab.

Laboratory.

And they're like, "No, a penguin got in the cloaca of a.

Do you know that there were 12 papers written? It looks like Fauci commissioned the first one with Jeremy Ferrar, at the, at who was at the Wellcome Trust at the time, and with Peter Daszak, what have you. And the first paper was written by Christian Anderson from Scripts. And it was written in Nature. And it says the natural origins of SARS-CoV-2. And says, you know, by looking at this, almost certainly it came out of nature. In Fauci's emails and texts, they all knew it came out of the lab. That was a cover-up manuscript.

Well, it's just amazing how coordinated it was with all these different countries. And so many countries instituted these draconian measures. Australia was incredible. New Zealand was incredible. It was bizarre to watch everyone in lockstep.

And.

It was really weird.

And, and things that could not have made sense. You know, in Australia, they got to one point there was a five-kilometer rule. Like, well, you couldn't go more than five kilometers from your house. Like, as if the virus obeyed those boundaries. Or do you remember all the ridiculous things?

Yeah.

One, one time, Laura Ingraham asked me to come on Fox. And, you know, I was always, you know, busy with patients and, you know, having to get over to the studio and have you and, and I never know what they're going to show me. So he shows me this, this teenage girl. It's a sunny day, and she's somewhere in the Midwest, and she's running a 1,000-meter race, and she's winning, but they're making all the kids wear masks.

Mm-hmm.

And she's trying to, you know, get enough what's called minute volation. That's the amount of air you can move at the maximum of exercise through this mask. And she can't do it, and she collapses on the track. She destroys her shoulder. They have her parents on. They're upset. And Laura Ingraham asks me, "Dr. McCullough, is this reasonable? Is it reasonable to wear masks outside?" I said, "No, this has been studied. You, you, the virus diffuses into the air. You don't, you can't contract it outside. In fact, people in Singapore tried to study this."

Yeah.

So, so people wearing masks outside. There was one people, somebody wearing masks when they were in an Olympic swimming pool, swimming. The mask was all.

Yeah.

So the masks.

Insane.

Seemed to come to symbolize a madness. Still, if you travel today, you'll still see people wearing masks.

You'll see them in Austin. If you go to San Francisco, they're ubiquitous. They're all over the, it's a, what I say it's like the Democrats' MAGA hat. It's, it's, it symbolizes that you are an avowed leftist, that you are on board with all these different things. Do you know the story about the lesbian bar in Massachusetts?

No, no.

You don't? Okay. This is a great story. There was a lesbian bar in Massachusetts in 2026. Recently, they're going under. All right. They tried to be communist, and they tried to have no cover charge for people that couldn't afford it. And so, of course, everyone said they couldn't afford it. They tried to do this, this thing where you just pay what you can. You know, they were trying to be, like, communist. Didn't work. And so they talked to a financial advisor, and one of the things that they had was a mask policy.

Oh my gosh.

So it became a tourist destination. I think it's called The Last Ditch. Is that the name of the place?

Yeah, it's now closed because they're trying to find new owners.

Oh, crazy.

You know, it's so sad. It went under. Massachusetts Lesbian Bar makes frantic effort to find new owners after relaxing masking policy in 2026. Now, we knew in 2020 that masks didn't work. In fact, there was one doctor, we played it on the podcast, and we got in trouble for this, where there was one doctor who was explaining how, uh, vape, like a nicotine vape, that the particles in the vapor are larger than COVID particles, than the COVID virus, and, and oxygen.

Yeah.

And he shows you. He's like, "These don't work." And, you know, we were, like, heavily criticized for showing that video where people go, like, "You're showing " again, misinformation. And then the other term that I really loved that they wheeled out, which was malinformation.

Do you know? Well, there you go. So now we got two out of the six.

Do you know what malinformation is?

Malinformation is information that would actually harm someone else, right?

It's.

So mal.

No, it's factual information that turns out to possibly cause harm.

Okay. Factual information that causes.

Factual.

All right.

Telling the truth.

And there's disinformation, which is somewhere of, like, not factual, but going to cause harm. So you have misinformation, disinformation, malinformation. There's two, there's three more. Um, uh, anti-science. Oh, you've had Peter Hotez on?

Yes.

He's made a whole lecture tour on that.

Yes.

You know, he, he went to my alma mater here at Baylor, and he, and he said, "Listen, this is the rise of anti-science." Now, now listen, he holds science. So if you don't, if you're, if you don't agree with him, you must be anti-science. Again, that's that moral superiority.

Wait, remember Fauci actually saying that?

Yeah.

Do you remember that statement?

That he was science, right?

Yes.

So, so he embodied science.

If you disagree with Anthony Fauci, you disagree with science.

Science. So, so, so that's number four. Number five, uh, is, uh, anti-vaxxer.

Mm-hmm.

So, so that's like saying, "Well, you know, I'm anti-hypertensive medication," or, "I'm anti-lipid-lowering medicine," or, "I'm anti-penicillin." You're not.

I'm anti-aspirin.

Yeah, anti yeah. This is like ridiculous. Anti-vaxxer. So, oh, you're an anti-vaxxer. And then the last one is conspiracy theorist.

Well, that one's a good one. That one's been around for a long time.

Right. So that's a.

That's a solid one.

That's an intelligence community. So I was.

Yeah.

I was part of a video. So this gal in, um, Australia, who was a dissident, she was a dissident voice. Oh, she was locked up, actually, at one point in time.

She was jailed?

Yeah. She put in jail. She, um, she made a video, and I'm in it. And they say, "Oh, this guy is, uh, is, uh, spreading misinformation." She said, "No, they're not. He's actually we're not he's not a conspiracy theorist. He's a rational theorist." That we're all rational theorists. We're presented with something that's brand new, that no one can possibly know really what's going on. And so we all construct rational theories that are discussable.

Mm.

Ambiguity. Oh, no.

Yeah.

It's a cri listen. If it's a war, if it's a virus, uh, there must be no ambiguity.

Right.

We have to know everything right now. And so I, I saw this in the prosecution of all these doctors. Well, they're outside the mainstream consensus.

Right.

It's a brand new problem. Consensus of what?

Right. Well, especially with science. The idea that science exists with consensus is nuts. Like, the whole idea is that you're supposed to be testing these things.

Yeah.

And it, it requires people questioning.

Well, especially in the what's called the inferential area of, of reasoning. This is very important. So deductive reasoning, let's take that. Deduction is the hard physical sciences, mathematics, physics, engineering. So, you know, there's laws. And if the laws are true, the roof will stay up above us. If the laws of physics work, the plane will take off today and what have you. Those that's deduction. So deduction, there must be some truth to gravity.

Right.

It, it goes back and forth.

Coffee.

It goes back and forth. "Coffee's good for you." "Coffee." You know, it just keeps going.

Right.

It, it goes back and forth as we approximate the truth.

Right.

And so this idea that there's a brand new virus, it comes out of China, and instantaneously there's a consensus. And if you're outside the consensus, you are spreading misinformation. There's a policy erected. You're violating the policy. Now you're being prosecuted. People found their entire professional lives destroyed over this.

Well, Dr. Robert Malone had a great phrase that I think he got from someone else called mass formation psychosis. And that this thing happens, everyone's terrified, and then they offer one solution.

Mm-hmm.

And this one solution must be adhered to by everyone. And there, again, can be no ambiguity.

Right. So that credit to Matthias Desmet. He's a.

Is that the guy from.

Yeah. He's, he's, he's a, a, a Belgian, uh, uh, psychologist. And he's investigated this. And, uh, in fact, there's this mass formation, and people feel like they, they actually, you know, become divided over something like this.

Yeah.

So the vaccine, for sure. Have you lost any friends over this vaccine?

Not real friends. Not yeah. Not, you know, no one that I miss.

But man-many have. Many of the listeners listening to this show will say, "You know what?"

Yes.

"After the pandemic, somehow things are reordered in my life."

Well.

"That my friends or family."

I think it's a good thing. I mean, I think those are the people that you really didn't want as friends in the first place.

You know, my field in medicine, we can talk about anything. So if I, uh, if I you know, and doctors love to talk shop. That's all we do, basically.

Sure.

Because it's so interesting. So we, we have some social gathering, we're talking about back surgery or talking about a new medical advance. We come up to vaccines. I can't talk about it.

Right. Why is that?

We get the hizen. We think what's going on, um, is that we have this in my second book. It's become an ideology. It's not, it's not scientific.

Right. I had Aaron Seary on.

Aaron? He's on the right?

You know, in vaccines we trust.

He's on the right.

He's on the right path.

He's on the right track.

Religion.

It's become a religion.

Yeah.

And it turns out in our book, we went all the way back three centuries to figure out where this came from. Where did this come from? How can this become religion? There's not a religion around antibiotics or religion about surgeries or religion about.

Right.

Radiology.

Why is there a religion around vaccines? Well, it turns out there's mankind has always had a susceptibility to contagious infectious diseases, probably more so, by the way, than other mammals. You know, you don't see groups of dogs getting colds and blowing snot or squirrels out there. For some reason, we're vulnerable. So mankind has been vulnerable to infectious diseases. And so there's always been a fear. We didn't understand them. But when infectious diseases blew in, oh my lord.

So Cotton Mathur, in the late 17th century, turns out he was one of the advisors to the judges in the Salem Witchcraft Trials. So Cotton Mathur, he's a Puritan minister, but he clearly believed in witches. So Cotton Mathur this is horrible. And we start out in our first chapter in the book on this. Cotton Mathur watches his wife and several kids die of what's probably measles. And he can't save them. He just he just watches them die.

This was issued by the Vatican?

This was issued by the Vatican.

A coin of someone getting vaccinated.

Yes. This shows you this iconography, I think, is confirmatory that what we're seeing is with vaccinology, there is a religious zeal. There's a madness here. And it's gone on for three centuries. And boy, it got turned on big time in the pandemic.

That same terminology that a gift from God, that same terminology was used by Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York, talking about the vaccines.

Really?

Yeah. It was a quote by her. She said, "These vaccines are a gift from God." Same terminology. Yeah. Was there any, um, efficacy to those original smallpox vaccines where they would take the pustule and they would give it to people? Did that work at all?

We can't possibly know. It, it took off. Before you know it, it became mandatory in a lot of places. Again, people were put in jail if they didn't take these shots in certain, uh, places around the world, Boston, Toronto, UK. It got to such a madness and controversy that in the UK, there was a city, Leicester, in the UK, that said, "We're not doing this. We're not taking these vaccines. This is nuts. We can't you know, they're taking fluid from other people. They're taking fluid from horses and animals.

What percentage of people did smallpox that got infected died?

I don't know, but it was high. It was high because, you know, the once you got covered in these pustules, it didn't take much for it to be super infected with staph. And then.

Mm-hmm.

Once the staph took off remember, back in the olden days, there was a term called erysipelus. That was just a bad skin staph infection. That would be fatal. And all of these infectious diseases this is really important. You've had Suzanne Humphries on.

Mm-hmm.

You've had Aaron Seary. All of these infectious diseases came under control before widespread vaccination. This is very important.

Right.

Through better, uh, nutrition. Sanitation was big and personal hygiene.

Right.

Th-this was very big. So we don't have erysipelas outbreaks. There's no vaccine for that. That's just like a staph you know, um, streptococcal. My family was greatly affected I'm Irish greatly affected by streptococcal, uh, through the Irish as they immigrated to the United States. Uh, my great-grandmother died of Bright's disease at age 32. That's post-streptococcal, uh, kidney failure. My grandfather, who I never met, he died of, uh, rheumatic heart disease, again, streptococcal. I never see patients dying of streptococcal disease now, ever.

So you think those are the primary factors?

Yeah.

And what about nutrition?

Big.

Nutrition's a big factor.

Big.

Particularly when you're dealing with cities in the winter where they don't have access to fresh vegetables.

For sure.

And they don't they're very poorly fed.

I mean, a great example is, uh, measles fatalities. I mean, it's tightly linked to vitamin A deficiency. In fact, vitamin A is so critical that there's a vitamin A protocol. So there was a prospective, double-blind, randomized placebo-controlled trial of giving vitamin A to critical kids with measles, pneumonitis in the New England Journal of Medicine, and it reduced mortality. That's just an example of a nutritional intervention that reduced mortality. So in the modern day, I've said, you know, there's a great hullabaloo about measles right now.

Aaron Seary was also discussing how it seems that prior measles infection protects you from some other things.

You know, it may. It may. You know, natural infection and recovery always seems to be far more durable and, and broadly applicable. And a good paper to quote is Bianchi and colleagues, where it was a perfect time at an Italian medical school where they had half the kids had kind of natural measles immunity because, you know, they were they grew up before there was availability of a measles vaccine. And the other kids had measles vaccine immunity. And they tested them serologically to see if did they have any protection.

And how is that measured? Is it by antibodies?

It's by antibodies. It's a reasonable proxy. But in our book, we mention Ben Edwards. And Ben is here in Texas. Uh, Ben went to Baylor just after me. Doctor, he's out in West Texas taking care of the Mennonites. You remember a couple of years ago, there was an outbreak?

Mm-hmm.

He's taking care of the Mennonites, and he's communicating with us. And actually, I talked to some of the Mennonites myself. And Ben says, "Listen, I took all these measles shots." He goes, "I'm not sure I had any I have any protection." And sure enough, he sent me a picture. He's covered head to toe with measles. He's taken four measles vaccines. So the point is, the measles vaccines, while they have dropped case count, terrific, they're not perfect. And our CDC is deceptive about measles reporting now. And this is very important. When they when they categorize people, they're not going out and investigating each case.

So they say that just to downplay the, the possible effect.

The failure of a vaccine.

The failure of the vaccine.

Right. It's intentional. And they do that as part of their reporting. And I've looked into it. Well, how do you determine if it's unknown? They said, "Well, i-if somehow the vaccine card isn't made apparent to us " you know, and this is through data systems and stuff. No one's going to be able to get a vaccine card through some data system.

So they essentially assume someone's unvaccinated if they get measles.

Correct.

One of the least scientific aspects of the COVID pandemic was, if you had had COVID, they still required you to get vaccinated.

Now, that was interesting.

Yeah.

Because in 2020, when they were doing the clinical trials this is very important. So Moderna, Pfizer, Janssen. They said, "Listen, they're doing a clinical trial. Oh, no. We're not going to take anybody who's already had COVID. We're not going to take anybody who has any antibodies to COVID. We're not going to take women of childbearing potential or pregnant women. No, no, no. The vaccine either is not going to work or it's not going to be safe. We just want virgin cases." Okay. Well, they do their clinical trials.

Do you think that they were vaccinating the people that had had a prior infection because they wanted to get rid of the control group?

I think there's a sense in this vaccine world. Part of this vaccine ideology is, you know, man outdoes God. But the vaccines aren't perfect. It's very important. So the vaccinologists will tell you the vaccines aren't perfect. So in order for this to work, everyone must take them. Everyone, without exception. Without exception, because it's for the betterment of humanity. It's for the greater good. And if some people are harmed or somebody's already had the infection and they can't possibly benefit, we don't care because this is for the greater good.

But it literally makes no sense.

Well.

Like, one of the things we found out very early on was that prior infection was up to seven times more effective at preventing a reinfection.

Oh, okay.

So this is something that I brought up to Sanjay Gupta when he came on the podcast.

Yeah. What did he say?

He said well, he said, "You had COVID. Are you going to get vaccinated now?" And I said, "Why?" I said, "No. Why would I? You know that prior infection is far better to prevent another COVID outbreak. Like, why?"

Yeah.

And he had no answer. It didn't make any s he knew it didn't make any sense, but it's a religious thing. Like, he wanted me I had another friend of mine who's a vaccine kook who uh, you know, he was like, "Now that you've had COVID, are you going to get vaccinated?" I go, "Why would I?" I go, "You know that prior infection is better at preventing a re getting it again."

If you get.

Like, I don't understand.

If you get chickenpox, you don't go get a chickenpox vaccine.

Right.

Right? So.

It didn't make any sense, but it was this thing where you had to become a part of the team.

Well, that's interesting, right? It's almost as if it's almost as if there was a marking there. You know, have you seen on social.

Yeah.

Social media where people put their, their band-aid?

Oh, yeah.

Remember Jason Kelsey no, Travis Kelsey. Travis.

Mm-hmm.

Travis puts the blue, uh, band-aid on.

Right.

He's part of the team.

Well, he also got paid.

But, you know, this is the type of thing.

He got paid.

But there is a symbolism of, of being on a team.

Yes.

That you take the vaccine, you take it for the greater good. Uh, damn the torpedoes. You know, there were three papers that I was quoting that showed if you previously had the infection if you previously had the infection, you actually were harmed by taking these vaccines. There were more serious adverse events, things that landed you in the hospital because your body's immune system is already jazzed up. You don't need to juice it some more.

Right.

So there's actually harm. That's the reason why the FDA and the company said, "No, no, no. If you've previously had COVID, you shouldn't get this shot." And to, to just change in three months and just throw out all of that regulatory pathway, accepted good clinical practice and I think the worst example is pregnancy. That's the golden rule is we never use experimental new things on a pregnant woman.

And what was the side effects of that?

It was horrendous. Uh, great credit to Jim Thorp. He's on the chief medical board with me at the Wellness Company, uh, obstetrician, called this out immediately and said, "Listen, this is madness." Tom Schumber-Ruero at the CDC puts out a paper in the New England Journal of Medicine. Doing the math, it looked like the miscarriage rate in the first trimester could be as high as 84% of women losing their babies. Now, in reality, we can't really tell because they didn't have full nine months of data.

And the vaccine gives you fevers.

For sure.

Boy. And they weren't operating on any data when they were recommending it to pregnant women and administering it to pregnant women.

None.

But yet they were saying it's safe and effective for pregnant women. And they were encouraging pregnant women to take it because they said that the risk of getting COVID was far greater than the potential harm of getting vaccinated while pregnant.

There was a paper by Panelis and colleagues and also Internal Medicine. It looked at that. What happened if pregnant women, uh, contracted COVID? Turns out, because they're young and healthy and robust and pregnancies and immune, uh, you know, one of the strongest states of natural immunity, pregnant women did better than non-pregnant women.

But what about fever?

The honestly.

Pregnant women getting fever while they had COVID.

They could again, that's a risk for that's a fair point. So COVID itself, uh, could be a risk factor for miscarriage, just like influenza or any other fever. It had to be managed. Turns out hydroxychloroquine was perfectly safe during pregnancy. There's actually been randomized trials of using that in, uh, lupus. I've used hydroxy in pregnant women. Ivermectin turned out to be safe. We had monoclonal antibodies. Bamolivumab safe during pregnancy. Steroids.

I'm glad you brought that up. I want to talk to you about that.

Um, monoclonal antibodies were very effective but made incredibly difficult to get at one point in time. What was that about?

There's a paper in Medical Economics, 2020, said Operation Warp Speed is going to deliver monoclonal antibodies. The US invested in doses for every single one of us. Every single one of us. These monoclonal antibodies I used them hundreds of times, Joe. They were safe. They were effective. They were miraculous. They really worked. They should have been in every single nursing home. They should have been in every ER, every urgent care. Anybody really sick should have gotten a monoclonal antibody.

Well, there was a there was actually a policy at some hospitals where once you were admitted to the hospital, they would no longer give you monoclonal antibodies.

Right. And it happened I was advising on two patients here in, uh, Texas, just south of Dallas, husband and wife. He's a pastor. His dad's a pastor I know him well. Um, the husband and wife get really sick with COVID. They come to the emergency room. They give her monoclonal antibodies and say, "You know, you're well enough. You go home. Take care of your five kids." They look at him. He's a little heavier guy. They said, "Oh, you're too sick. We're admitting you." They don't give him monoclonal antibodies, and he dies. It can't be any more clear.

But what would be the reasoning to not give him monoclonal antibodies while he's sick?

That, that, that reasoning was, well, that wasn't the way it was tested in clinical trials. It was only tested in outpatients. What my viewpoint on this is that this is where clinical judgment comes in. And if I was running the show at the top, I would have made sure everyone got these monoclonal antibodies. And when my patients were anywhere close to the ER, I made sure that they got these monoclonal antibodies. I held them up in the ER. I said, "Listen, you're not going into the hospital until you get monoclonal antibodies."

Well, the what had I had heard was they wanted to they wanted to limit the use of monoclonal antibodies because they felt that it contributed to vaccine hesitancy. And so one of the things that happened during the pandemic was when I had gone public with, uh I made this video and said that I got what had happened was I had some shows that I was doing with Dave Chappelle, and we had to cancel the shows. And I had to say in this video, "Hey," uh, I think it was it was Nashville or New Orleans.

Yeah.

Um, I had said all the different things that I took, and I said, "I feel great. I'm fine, but we have to cancel the shows. We'll reschedule them." And that's when I started getting attacked. But what what happened was I had gotten phone calls from everyone that I knew who knew anyone who got sick. Um, "What did you take? My aunt is sick. My uncle's sick." I sent nurses, private nurses to I don't even know how many people. I lost track of it. I just had an account, and I paid for all of it. I just had sent nurses to people.

Yeah.

People that I didn't even know, actors that I never even met in person.

Yeah.

They reached out to me on Instagram. I called them. We talked. I sent a nurse to them. I paid for all of it. I don't know how much I spent. I spent a lot of money on it. I just sent I was like, "Look, I'm going to save these people's lives."

Yep.

And one of the things that we administered to them was monoclonal antibodies. Um, and I did it to a lot of fucking people, man. A lot of people all over the country, comics, all these different people.

You remind me of this gal I met on social media and Instagram. Her name is Nurse Michelle. You should check her out. She's middle-aged, got like a bunch of kids, and she's just a good lady in rural North, uh, Georgia. She saw this happening. She said, "This is so horrible. I don't care about the law. I don't care about the rules." She stocked up her minivan with every drug she could possibly get a hold of from overseas: ivermectin, hydroxychloroquine, antibiotics, steroids. She reached out to me.

Yeah. What I was going to get to was.

It's a war.

Somewhere along this process, uh, we couldn't get access to monoclonal antibodies anymore.

Right.

So I was sending all these nurses out to administer IV vitamins, a bunch a bunch of different things.

Yeah.

And then it got really difficult to get monoclonal antibodies.

Yeah.

And one of my friends in New York was really sick, and we had to get him monoclonal antibodies. And it was like one of the last available doses of monoclonal antibodies we could get him. And we got it to him, and he got better. But it was like really weird.

And do you know, there were six of these that were FDA emergency use authorized, and then one after another, they were taken off the market.

And this was all about vaccine hesitancy.

Well, they were taken off the market saying, "Well, the virus mutated. These probably won't work." Well, wait a minute. If the virus mutated and these probably won't work, then why are we still continuing with vaccines?

The exact vaccine that was for the wild virus.

So here's the point. This whole pandemic, my analysis is, this was about mass vaccination.

Yeah.

Treatment. And if you go through the warm-up exercises, so the SPARS pandemic, that was Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health in 2017, where the hypothesis is the virus is going to come out of, um, uh, Brazil. And, uh, again, there'll be controversy over treatment, but we're going to railroad vaccines. And then event 201, which is October of 2019, New York City, again, Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health there. The Chinese CDC is there, George Gao.

And this probably has something to do with profit and also the fact that they're immune to liability.

It could be. It could be just this, this religion, uh, with vaccines, which goes back a long way. And it's a head scratcher because believe me, these monoclonal antibodies, there was Lilly, Sanofi. There was a lot of money. There was thousands of dollars per dose. This was big money.

Yeah.

In many ways, per unit, it was way bigger money than the vaccines. And they really worked. But there was something about the narrative and what I call the false narrative. The false narrative was, "This virus is unassailable. Don't you dare try to treat it." And it turns out Operation Warp Speed gave a pretty, pretty good answer, which was the monoclonal antibodies. And, you know, for the first two years, in terms of at home, the only oral drugs we had, the first year we used hydroxychloroquine plus the other generics, second year ivermectin.

And then also, why did they feature things that turned out to be very detrimental, like Remdesivir?

Oh.

Then, you know, nurses, what they used to call it, run death is near.

The WHO, November of 2020, comes out with a statement with the European Society of Critical Care. They look at this. They say, "Listen, don't use Remdesivir. It doesn't work, and it has toxicities." This is the WHO, backed by a very solid physician group. They put this out there. You know, a year and a half later, in Lancet, they revisit the original recommendations. Now they've got the Who Solidarity. They have all the trials. And they said, "Listen, we were right.

How did that happen?

Against the WHO.

How did that happen?

I had.

And why?

Absolutely no idea. And when I ask my colleagues in the hospital, they give me blank stares.

Because Remdesivir was not formulated for COVID-19.

No. It was a failed Ebola drug. And the WHO is strictly saying, "Do not use it." It's still on their website.

And it had that side effect, a particular side effect. One of them was kidney failure.

Right.

That didn't exist with COVID-19 infection.

No, there was a risk of acute kidney injury with, uh, severe illness, but this was additional toxicity. And, you know, I had several patients get it. So I I had patients, you know, getting sick, going in the hospital. I don't think I had a single it was it was a five-day series. I didn't have a single patient get through five days because it was so toxic to the liver. We would see the liver injury numbers skyrocket.

So liver was the big one.

Liver and kidney. The liver can rebound. The kidneys can't. So some people ended up on dialysis.

So what I had heard was there one of the red flags was the high instances of kidney failure.

Yeah.

And that this wasn't it didn't match up with just COVID-19 infection, that it was much more rare. Is that what it was?

No, it's a correct analysis. That's a correct analysis. These people were very sick. But the fact that you had Health and Human Services go directly against the WHO, and, you know, a lot of other countries didn't even use it.

So who recommended Remdesivir?

Well, HHS at that time was Alex Azar. That was under Trump 1.0. Then under Biden, we had Xavier Bashara. And, uh, we had Robert Kalef, who was the FDA chair. Why didn't they re-look at this? Why didn't they have a meeting with the WHO? None of this can be explained.

Yeah, the Remdesivir one was very disturbing because, um, a doctor that I talked to said, "Under no circumstances, allow anyone that you know to take that stuff."

Right.

And I and I was like, "What is it?" Like, it was very weird to have someone say that. And they said, "I don't understand why people are prescribing this for COVID-19 infection. It not only does it not seem to be effective, but it seems to be deadly."

Right.

Which is like, how is that possible that that got through?

And listen, at that time, there was a critical study published in one of the best journals for pulmonary medicine called Chest. The first author is Rusher from Florida. It's called the ICON study. And there was a group that got ivermectin in the ER and continued during the hospitalization, and a group who didn't. So it was a very good it wasn't a randomized trial, but it's a very good, you know heat of the pandemic here in Florida, lots of senior citizens getting sick.

Something that has a 50% effective rate of stopping hospitalization and death.

And it was the most rapid-acting drug. So we saw patients. We ultimately published on this. Sabine Hazen, uh, in, uh, Malibu gets great credit. Uh, Dr. Ethereus Guklaukas down in, um, in Rio Grande, uh, was in our team. Uh, Tom Barodi, who's passed away from Australia. We had a great international team. We show that ivermectin can actually recover oxygen levels in people sick at home, people with low oxygen levels. We had patients in South Africa, uh, United States.

So what this war on ivermectin, do you think that this was about vaccine hesitancy? This was about people found out that you could use ivermectin. And, you know, there's that famous Rolling Stone article, which I'll never forgive them from. It was so disgusting. They showed a bunch of people waiting in line at a hospital, and they said that people were waiting in line for the emergency room with gunshot wounds because so many people were overdosing with veterinary medication, ivermectin.

Oh my God.

Do you remember that article?

Yes. Yes.

It's a crazy article because the people that are waiting in line, they're wearing winter coats. These people were waiting in line for the flu shot.

Right.

It wasn't it wasn't the same. It was, uh, July in Oklahoma or August in Oklahoma.

It's it's complete fraud. You know, the FDA had out there, "It's only a horse dewormer," and all these things.

Right. You're not a horse.

So Paul Merrick, uh, who's one of the best critical care doctors in the world, um, uh, Dr. Apter from Arizona, Mary Taylor Boden, who you've had on the show, they sue the FDA. They sue the FDA and say, "Listen, you're making false claims about ivermectin." The FDA gets lawyers. They start to, you know, engage. The lawyers said, "Okay, uh, we'll take down all our false information." So the FDA, under Biden and Robert Kalef, who is the commissioner of FDA, had a false campaign on ivermectin to dissuade people from using it.

What is the root of this? Like, what is the original person that says, "Go out and do this"? So it has to be.

Joe, it was in Australia. It was in Europe. It was in India. You know, they tried.

Even in India, when it was effective.

No, they tried it. There was a there was a guy who came out from Emory, Indian doctor from Emory, said, "Listen, my mom just got revived with ivermectin." That guy got squashed in two seconds. All over the world, there was some type of incredible force to squash what I think was the most valuable drug out of all the drugs in the pandemic. I think I put ivermectin number one. I put steroids number two. And, and down the line, we used about five or six drugs in combination. So we get to just this last hearing that Ron Johnson has.

How is that possible in 2020, 2021, with the internet, with all the available information, with people being able to speak freely? How is it possible that they suppress this information to such an extent that they suppress doctors using this on their patients, supposedly people that had been in their care, so probably a lot of people that they knew and loved, and watch die? How is this possible?

Censorship made it possible. The power of YouTube censorship and Google and Twitter and all of the social media, any one of us trying to, you know, we're making observations. We're finding things that work, and we're putting out these observations. We're crushed. And I tell you, it wasn't just social media. It was in the medical literature. So I'm thankful. You know, I published the most widely used protocol in the world that probably saved tens of millions of lives, spared hundreds of millions of hospitalizations.

Is that guy still working?

I think he's back as being a dean somewhere in the Northeast.

Wow.

So we saw stuff like that happen. And in the medical literature, we began to see retractions now. Wait a minute. Retraction. I've been an editor of major journals for decades. I've never retracted a paper because the submission and peer review process is so arduous and so intensive. Some papers can take years to get published, but when they're published, they're considered valid. People may not like them. They can write letters to the editor. We can debate things. But what we saw is we saw papers retracted.

There's another thing I want to talk to you about when it comes to vaccination during a pandemic. Previous literature had pointed to discouraging vaccination during a pandemic because it encouraged variants.

Gert Vandenbosch, uh, a virologist, uh, he's actually a doctor of veterinary medicine, but he had, uh, put that statement out in a valid way, that we should never vaccinate in a pandemic. Never. Because when you get a viral infection, it's up there in the nose. You know, it's percolating, by the way, for about a week. You never know it's there. And then it drains back to the throat, the lymphatics. You get a sore throat. That's the first sign you think you have a virus. You've already had it up here for about seven days. It's percolating.

Especially with a leaky vaccine, a vaccine that does not prevent infection.

It's not sterilizing. Right. See, it's not sterilizing, and it can't be sterilizing. If you had because the vaccines were all coded for one part, oh, and Joe, I have to give you a virus at this stage.

You got to give me a virus?

Yeah.

Oh boy.

Um, I brought this all the way from Amazon.

You got to give me a virus from the Amazon?

Yes.

Oh, amazon.com?

I'm going to give you three of them.

Oh, okay.

So here you go. So this is the example.

Am I sick now?

Yeah.

How's that work?

So listen, all these guys are all SARS-CoV-2, but they're a little different. Okay?

Okay.

So the vaccines, Pfizer, Moderna, Jansen, and Novavax, they're only directed against the spike protein, which is this little spike on the surface. It turns out there's like 30 other proteins inside the nucleocapsid. So all the virus has to do is change its spike protein a little bit, and it's free. See, it's very different than a sterilizing vaccine. A sterilizing vaccine would be comprehensive against many, many different proteins. Even if you changed a little bit, you could the body's immune system could wipe it out.

Can you give me an example of a sterilizing vaccine?

You know, there's not good examples for viral vaccines. So for instance, influenza vaccines are not sterilizing. Pertussis vaccines are not sterilizing. Um, it's hard to understand me. Maybe some of the, um, bacterial, uh, vaccines, I'd have to put some I'd probably have to consult an expert.

Okay.

On this to tell you the truth. But, but the idea is for sure, going after the spike protein alone was a mistake because that's actually the most pleomorphic or mutational part of the whole virus. You know, the envelope protein, the nucleocapsid, they don't change that much. But the virus would just say, "Listen, I'll just change the spike protein." And so there were papers by Acorsi, Acherian, uh, and others that measured the viral load in the nose and mouth of the vaccinated and unvaccinated, and they were the same.

One of the more egregious bits of propaganda was Rachel Maddow on TV saying, "The virus stops with you." You remember that?

Yeah.

If you get vaccinated, the virus stops with you. You can't infect anyone else. You can't get infected. We can get out of this. The virus stops with you.

What made her so Joe, what made her so confident?

Well, she's a lesbian. When you're a lesbian on television, you have incredible confidence. Also, she's wearing a nice suit. She's on television.

She's got the longest neck. I don't know. It's like a giraffe.

She's obviously very smart. That's why she's so confident.

I think I think that people the people have a hard time with ambiguity.

I don't think that. I think they were giving a mandate. She was I think she was told to discuss it in that manner.

But listen, you never said that. I never said that.

Well, I certainly didn't. I got in trouble for not doing it.

I know. When people ask me, listen, I'm a doctor. My this thing was rolling out. My patients were asking me, "Dr. McCulloch, should I take a vaccine?" My honest answer is, I don't know. I don't know if they work. I don't know if they're safe. So ambiguity, that's the important point. There was nobody in the public health apparatus that could even live with ambiguity for a second.

Did you ever see the Facebook call with Mark Zuckerberg dealing with the entire stuff where he's like there's a call where he's like warning people about this? We're saying we don't really know what's going to happen with this gene therapy.

Mm-mm.

Yeah. This is like early on.

But can you imagine?

Well, by the way, do you remember during Trump's administration was when all this was discussed and all of these people, including Kamala Harris, all these people were saying, "Are you going to trust a vaccine that Trump comes up with? I'm not going to trust it."

I remember that.

Do you remember that? Yeah.

Yeah. Oh, I'm not going to take.

But boy, did that switch over when Biden became president. Then everybody trusted it.

And then nobody called him on it.

It's the exact same vaccine, but yet because Trump wasn't involved anymore and it was Biden promoting it, everybody was gung-ho for the same exact medication that they wouldn't trust because Trump was a part of it.

Well, why would a medical problem get politicized? It affects both Democrats and Republicans.

Everything's politicized in this stupid country.

But this is the type of thing where you'd say, "Listen, they're not going to take a vaccine under Trump, but under Biden, it's the same vaccine. They're going to take it."

Yeah.

This is this is this madness that we saw through the pandemic, but sadly, people were harmed. I'm on record in the US Senate saying that 85% of these deaths of COVID deaths could have been spared with an intensive early treatment program at home continued through the hospitalization, including monoclonal antibodies and Ivermectin. And listen, when Paxlovid came in or Molnupiravir, terrific. Believe it or not, we have a drug now that's approved for post-exposure prophylaxis in really sick patients called Zikova. I can prescribe it and people can take it once they've been exposed to COVID.

Right. Importantly, there was no data at all that showed that the vaccine stopped infection or stopped transmission. So when they were saying that so confidently on television, they were completely talking out of their ass.

Well, you knew it. The original trials, remember, it was one month of the primary series, and they kind of cheated on that. So the primary series in the vaccine group, you weren't considered an infection. An infection didn't count until after two shots. But in the placebo, it did. See, that was there was modified intent to treat. That was actually cheating. You should count all the infections in both groups equally. There's an analysis by Michaels and colleagues that nailed this down. But in the clinical trials, there's one month of getting the shots and there's two months of observation.

So what instructed people? What was it about them that made them say it so confidently?

It's a wishful it's I think people are wishful that they take on this religious zeal around vaccines. And I've been looking for the memos. I'm a frequent contributor on Fox. I go on all the stations. I'm looking for the memo that says, "Listen, become a zealot over the vaccines." I never got any memo like that. And I saw it happen worldwide, by the way. So it's all over the world. I think there's an infectious, contagious groupthink around vaccines.

Mass formation psychosis.

Yes. And people there's a word about people who mimic other people's behaviors. They just they hear something and they just kind of chime in. And it's called a mimesis. There was a mass mimesis and people fell into this. And this is stunning that very few people could see it. Now, once you could see it, it seems like you could see it right away. I could see it right away.

Well, I couldn't see it right away. I almost got vaccinated. You know, the UFC allocated a bunch of vaccines for all of their employees. We were doing shows during the pandemic in a place called the Apex Center. The Apex Center is a very small arena that the UFC has. And what they did was they had shows where they would put on fights, but they COVID tested everyone and all the staff, all the corner people, and all the fighters. And so you would show up. I got tested before I got on a plane. I landed.

What month?

I wish I could remember. I don't. But it was the Johnson & Johnson is what they had allocated. One shot, you're done. I'm like, "Okay, give it to me." So I showed up on a Saturday and I showed up for the event and I said, "Hey, can you vaccinate me?" I was going to get vaccinated before the fights. So I got there in the morning and I was like, "Can you guys vaccinate me?" And they said, "Yeah, we're going to get the doctor. We'll call you right back." And then they said I talked to the doctor. He said, "We can't do it here. Can you come to the clinic on Monday?" I said, "I can't come on Monday.

After taking the shots.

After taking the shots.

That you knew personally.

Yes. One that I didn't know personally that but a good friend of mine knew.

Yeah.

And then one that I knew. And a bunch of people got really ill and it was weird. And I said, "Hang on. What's going on here?" And that's when I started to get a little hesitant because one of the guys was 50 years old and very healthy. And I was like, "This is weird." It was weird. Um, and I just started getting a little nervous. And I was never vaccine hesitant at all. In fact, uh, there's been podcasts before where I was mocking people were that were anti-vaccine. I thought that was ridiculous. Like I had thought that all the science had been settled.

Well, if you heard of germ versus train, right? So the idea is you probably had the virus many, many times in your nasopharynx and your immune system is working, working, working. You just have enough of a wrinkle in it. Then or you get a big enough inoculum. That is, you know, you get enough of it at once. Now, interestingly.

I think it was my immune system being.

Right. You just get a little.

It was me getting drinking. I think the drinking was the thing.

So the vaccine you were going to take is Janssen. Janssen was an adenoviral vaccine. So it's not messenger RNA. So this is a replication incompetent adenovirus. It gives the genetic instructions temporarily for your body to make a massive amount of the spike protein.

Right.

Massive.

Right.

And the adenoviral vector itself is thrombogenic. And so and by the way, Janssen and AstraZeneca are nearly the same. They were made by the same manufacturer, Emergent Biosolutions out of Baltimore, a biodefense contractor. It's kind of interesting. Why is a biodefense contractor making a human vaccine for a pandemic? Anyhow, so you have AZ and you have.

Why is that?

Janssen going. None of the companies make their own products. They subcontract to biodefense contractors.

Oi.

Moderna is made by a company called Resilience. Anyhow.

Funded by the DOD.

Back on the story. So the point is, this one was so thrombogenic, there's a disease named after it. It's called VITT, vaccine-induced thrombotic thrombocytopenia. So the platelet count goes down, massive blood clots form. Blood clots form actually in the brain, the major sinuses in the brain. This is horrible. And when that happens, there's a 30% mortality rate. People have to have their skulls opened. There were huge blood clots forming in the legs, shooting to the lungs. It was so bad. That was AstraZeneca and Janssen.

That's terrifying if it's true.

It's true.

But I know it's true.

Because I was a division chief. I was a program director. I was a chief academic scientific officer. I had to sign off on these papers. If I was at an institution where there was a mandate and a paper like that came and I'm sure they're out there, there's no way they would get approved.

Now, one of the things that's really disturbing is reports that people today, five years after they've been vaccinated, their body's still producing spike proteins.

We published the first, Hohscher and colleagues. We published this in the European Society of Medicine, Medical Archives, patient of mine. He's worked for a pharmaceutical company. He's trying to do the right thing. In 2014, before the pandemic, he has a blood clot, which people can have, and he got treated for it. So we knew clinically he was at risk for blood clots. So he takes two Pfizers. What happens? He gets blood clots and they shoot to his lungs with two Pfizers and he develops myocarditis, proven by MRI.

And people are still taking this.

Very few.

But enough that I've seen people post about it online, like openly bragging or at least signaling that they're following the science.

The CDC quit keeping track of who actually took boosters in 2023.

Why?

Almost certainly because of low uptake. And so what happened is they rely on what's called NIS, the National Immunization Survey, which is a robo phone call. Talk about getting robo phone calls. It's election day and they were pouring in last night. So the robo call comes in and says, "Hey, we want to talk to you about taking vaccines. Are you going to take a COVID vaccine?" They ask you a bunch of questions and it's only those people who answer it. So the CDC started in 2023, said, "Listen, we think 15% of people are taking boosters from a robo call, not from actual data." So last year, McCullough Foundation said, "Listen," and it's a foundation I started to do research since our organizations are not doing the research that we need.

That's still a lot.

I know, but a government's, you know, contracting for billions of dollars.

Right. But which is horrifying. But if all the things that you're saying are true and that the risk outweighs the reward and that with many people, your body continues to produce spike protein years later, how in the world are they still prescribing this?

I think there's some people who clear it out. Listen, my neighbor's somebody, he's taken every shot. To him, it's like an elixir. He is fine. And I have people in my family who find that they have very high antibody levels to the spike protein, meaning the messenger RNA is chugging away at spike protein. But this is another part to the secret here. If you have the vaccine in you and you're producing lots of spike protein, these little spikes, but the antibodies that are made to it are perfectly keyed to the spike protein, going to neutralize it, neutralize it, neutralize it.

Well, we saw a lot of athletes during the pandemic drop.

Yes.

And it was really disturbing, particularly soccer players who have some of the best cardio you've ever seen. Soccer is all about cardio. It's all about leg strength and cardio and coordination, obviously, but they're running constantly. If you ever watch a live professional soccer match, it's extraordinary. I mean, these guys are constantly sprinting and it wasn't a common thing to see them drop, but we saw a lot of it during the pandemic.

It was Panagias Polykratous and myself published in European leagues, pro and semi-pro, under age 35. We had all the data. Tenfold increase in 2021 when they rolled out the vaccines and they forced him to take it.

Tenfold.

Tenfold. And the best example is Christian Eriksson, Danish soccer player. He has a primary cardiac arrest for sure. Everybody denies the vaccines or the managers. They all took the vaccines. I mean, I was telling you right now, they did. And he actually gets a defibrillator. He gets a subcutaneous ICD. My fear is that he never got it appropriately treated with spike detoxification and with colchicine. And you know, about five years later, he just had a second arrest and the defibrillator saved him.

What was the rate of adoption in professional sports in the United States? Was it all sports? I know the NFL, my friend Aaron Rodgers had a real issue, obviously. You know that story.

Yeah.

Where he was actually allergic to one of the ingredients in one of the vaccines. So he had a very legitimate medical reason for not taking it.

Sure. Sure.

And yet he was raked over the coals.

Well, then they make him wear a special band and all of this. But isn't it interesting? You have Aaron Rodgers at the time, Aaron was the number one quarterback in the league at that time. He was number one. You had the number one tennis player, Novak Djokovic. You had Kyrie Irving, who was probably one of the top people in the NBA. All of them said, "Listen, my body is more important than this. I don't need this vaccine." Eric Clapton, greatest guitar player in the world.

Well, he took it and had a horrible reaction.

He had a horrible time.

And was really attacked.

Right.

Like they wrote a horrible LA Times article about what a terrible person he was because he talked about the side effects.

He couldn't play for a year.

Of being vaccinated.

Yeah. Eric told me he couldn't play for a year. He had a baseline neuropathy. He couldn't play for a year. These other superstar players aren't going to take it. And yet the punishment they received for, and then sadly, people did take it. Damar Hamlin, Christian Anderson, all these athletes who had cardiac arrest. Look at Bronny James, who had a near miss, LeBron James' son. You had Uwe Chuchu, who played for USC. He has a USC mandated the vaccine. So 100%, these guys took the vaccines, the USC basketball team.

What?

He said, "I think a lot of these people got fake vaccine cards."

Oh, they definitely did.

Yeah.

I personally know people got fake vaccine cards.

Yeah.

Because they needed to travel.

Well, think about it. This is a war. Nobody's being honest with us. Governments are not being honest with us. Why would people be honest with a paper card?

Right.

Where somebody's scribbling writing. Now in Europe, they actually had electronic systems in Canada. But United States, it was a lousy paper card. Half my patients can't even find their cards, for crying out loud.

What is this supplement?

This is wellness company, Ultimate Spy Detox. This is high dose, nattokinase, bromeline, and curcumin, plus minor ingredients. It's natural. And this is what we use, Joe, to clear the spike protein out of the body. It has very, very good supportive data. Nattokinase gets inside and outside of cells.

I take that.

I take it myself. It dissolves the spike protein. It's antithrombotic. It helps fight blood clots. And it is our lead product. And we intentionally didn't patent this. Now it's copyrighted in my name so people can locate it. But we intentionally didn't patent it because the whole world needs this stuff. And if you were to go to Amazon right now and type in Spy Detox, you'd see about three dozen rows of products, all different companies. Wellness company is the lead. We've done this since 2022. But the point is, if people get on the right detoxification protocol, Spy Detox is huge.

It's a drop.

And what it's modified sweat. In my patient, we did skin biopsies.

So kids are getting vaccinated through their mother's milk, essentially?

Yes.

Oh, God.

And the spike protein and the vaccine's been found in the placenta. But Joe, the body can heal and get rid of this. I want to be very hopeful to people on this. They have to stop taking more shots. Most people have. Get on spike detoxification and find whatever protocol. This is a blood thinner. It's very important. This is a minor blood thinner. So people on blood thinners, I use this in conjunction with blood thinners, but I'm a doctor and I, you know, oversee this.

Nick Holstetter?

Yeah, Nick Holscher.

Holscher, his name.

Yeah.

He posted something today that 5% of Democratic senators or Congresspeople.

9%.

9%?

9%. It's 4 out of 45. It's 8.9%. So Nick and I were on Newsmax last night.

Explain what they got.

Okay.

The 9%.

Okay. So it's 4 out of 45 Democratic senators right now have had a stroke before age 65. So these people are younger than me, Joe, and they've had a stroke. So we just had.

How unusual is that?

It should be way, way that less than 1% of the population ever has this happen. And they publicly take vaccines. So Chris Murphy.

Performatory.

Right. Listen, I took the vaccine. So we have Chris Murphy, Chris Van Hallen, Ben Rey Loujain, and we had John Fetterman. Now, Fetterman had atrial fibrillation back in 2017, which is a risk factor for stroke and blood clots, not on blood thinners. He may have gone into heart failure, had leg swelling and problems. He publicly takes the shots in 2020, 2021. 2022, in the milieu of atrial fibrillation, not on blood thinners, he has a stroke. Now, he has trouble speaking.

I think you're right. Another thing I want to talk to you about, cancer. How many people who took these vaccines have aggressive cancer? And ironically, including the former CEO of YouTube who actively suppressed all the information about anything that had anything that was remotely critical about the vaccines, shiga cancer, like super aggressive cancer, and died.

As a doctor, if you were to tell me there's a product, a biopharmaceutical product that would cause heart damage and myocarditis and cardiac arrest and heart failure and blood clots, the spike protein is directly in the blood clots and it would cause autoimmune problems because the body attacks itself because the spike protein is on the cell surfaces. And it causes neurologic problems like transverse myelitis and Guillain-Barre syndrome, of which all those four disease categories for sure the vaccines do.

No, I guarantee they thought of it. They just didn't want to say it.

This is mind-blowing.

They're still averse to saying.

Reality. Did you see the Irish runner, McGeehan, who just died?

Yes.

Oh my Lord. Now, okay, 2024, she wins a world championship in the 1,000 meters. You know what it takes as a woman to win a thought? She has to be perfectly healthy in 2024. Here we are, 2026, you know, three-quarters of the way through the year and she's dead of colon cancer.

Aggressive.

Unheard of. Joe Biden, sitting president of the United States. Now listen, his doctor is O'Connor. And I can tell I'm in practice. I see patients every day. I'm an internist cardiologist. I examine men, I examine their genitalia, prostate exam. I order the test. I don't have a single patient in my practice in that tenure that has developed widespread metastatic Gleason grade 9 prostate cancer. So here Joe Biden is in the White House and it happens under the watch of everybody right there.

Well, he's also had strokes.

He's had subarachnoid hemorrhage. He's had craniotomies. So he's been kind of set up. But a paper by Ota and colleagues from Japan showed the messenger RNA is in the brain. It's physically in the blood vessels in the brain. And in my practice, Joe, which is I see, you know, hundreds, if not thousands of patients who have problems after the vaccines, when they develop a syndrome, it's not classic. So when it's a neurodegenerative disorder, it's not classic Alzheimer's and it's not classic Parkinson's, but a blend.

Well, he's old anyway. I mean, there's that. He is obviously not healthy.

Hallo, dein Rücken hier. Mir reicht's. Noch länger sitzen und ich streike.

I want to talk to you about SV40 and the instances of SV40 being found in samples of the vaccine.

Multiple labs. Now, Simeon Virus 40, this is and it's used to, by the way, to make vaccines. So when we take when you want to make.

Well, the virus isn't used to make vaccines.

Well.

Simeon Virus 40 is used to make vaccines?

Yeah. This is kind of how it works.

It's the culture. It's like.

I know, but you want to okay. One wants to make a ton of messenger RNA. So this is how you do it. You take a DNA in plasma. You take a DNA, a circular piece of DNA in E. coli. And remember, the RNA is going to anneal to the DNA and be the complete reverse pattern of this. So if you take the DNA code for the spike protein and insert a promoter, SV40 promoter, SV40 enhancer, what's called the origin of insertion, and then antibiotic resistance genes, so that E.

That's very important, right? Because they made it very differently during the clinical trials than they did during mass production. And during mass production. So the Simeon Virus 40 comes from primate kidney cells?

Right. And it's an oncogene activator. It's basically a cancer sequence.

Ugh.

So, but one is going to make this crank. And it was used actually, the polio vaccine got contaminated with SV40 back actually in the time as a kid that I probably received one of these shots as a kid where this became a big deal with the polio vaccines that were using SV40. The Institute of Medicine was called in. They did a big review. They said, "Listen, you got to clean up the process. Get SV40 out of polio vaccine manufacturing." They did. But the Institute of Medicine said, "Listen, we can't know how many cancers, like in Dr.

Is there an increase in cancer post-polio vaccine?

We don't know. We don't know. There's a great concern since, you know, a decent segment of the population received SV40 in these vaccines. Now, hopefully it was low enough dose and the body is hopefully edit this out. But with the COVID shots, when SV40 in multiple labs, David Speaker in Canada and Kevin McKernan in the United States and Schoenberg in Europe, multiple labs have said, "Listen, Pfizer-Moderna has SV40 in it." For sure. For sure.

That's crazy. That is absolutely insane.

It's formally been brought to their attention. We're concerned that SV40 is one of these multi-hit mechanisms that has been summarized by Cantisaro, summarized by Anguiss and Bustos. I'm concerned. Listen, I've got family members who have taken this.

So you've laid out all these different factors, including SV40, and you think that is what should have been on the cover of Time Magazine when they were talking about all these people getting cancer.

Correct. It should have been, listen, we went through a pandemic. We were all exposed to this spike protein. By the way, how many of your friends never got COVID ever? Do you know anybody?

Yeah, I know one lady.

Okay, you know one.

No, I know two. I know a guy who never got it as well.

So you know two out of 2,000?

And they weren't vaccinated either.

In my practice, I know one or two. But I've pushed artificial intelligence on this. I said, "Listen, go to the county databases. Go to the serology databases. Go, go. Tell me how many people got COVID in the world." You know what the answer is? 97%. So we almost all got it. We got exposed to this stuff.

Yeah.

And it was the spike protein is devised in a Chinese biosecurity lab. We all got exposed to this. A couple important inferences. Can you imagine way back when in the Trump administration, if we had good forecasting and we said, "Listen, everybody, we're all getting it. This thing's so damn contagious. We're all going to get it. So the goal is to just get through it. If we can avoid hospitalization and death, we win. Let's call in McCullough, Corey, Zelenko, Boden.

Yeah.

It's a mind-blowing reality.

Well, hindsight is 20/20 though, right?

That's true.

And there was also this very distorted perception of what the dangers of the virus were going to be. It was listed by some people as high as 10% mortality.

Yes. Yeah.

It got crazy.

It took a while to shake out initially. I remember a very frightening call we had at the National Institutes of Health. And I was on one of the oversight panels for NIH for years where initially it was like, "Oh my Lord." We had a report in from Italy where doctors were dying of it, nurses were dying of it.

Yeah.

I came home and I told my wife, I said, "Listen, this could really be it." I mean, it was frightening until we sorted through it. We also had a precedent that threw us off and that was SARS-1. Remember the first SARS virus, it didn't spread all over the world. It lasted about 90 days. And all this masking and locking down and contagion control kind of contained it. It was kind of contained. Remember for other viral outbreaks like Ebola, some of the real fatal ones.

Isn't there an Ebola outbreak currently?

There is. Democratic Republic of Congo.

I think 5,000 people have died, 10,000 got it.

Right. But the principle is it's containable. It almost certainly won't be a worldwide thing.

Why is that?

Because the fact that it's so fatal and it's a contact virus. So just simply hand hygiene, keep people separate. You know, 99% of people get Ebola, can't wash their hands if they use the toilet. It's spread from fecal-oral stuff. And so far, virtually everybody in that outbreak who gets to the hospital is saved. So you can save people with Ebola. They just need IV fluids and support. So the point is, viral outbreaks can be contained and people can avoid getting it.

Yeah.

Now you can get it over and over again.

I got it a second time. But when I got it a second time, I literally, I had sniffles.

Yeah.

That was it. I had a nurse that was testing everyone before the shows. So we would do a test, not a PCR test, by the way, which is important. We should talk about that as well. So we did a test before the show and I was joking around because I had a little bit of a sniffle. I had just gotten back from the gym and I said, "Hopefully I don't have COVID." Just joking. And she's like, "Oh my God, you tested positive." I'm like, "No way. Like this is COVID?

Okay.

So I think it was on a Monday, so I might have had it on the weekend or something. I don't remember. I don't remember the details. It was very fast.

But it shows you how robust natural immunity is, right?

Yes. It was very quick. And by the way, I didn't feel bad at all. I literally just had sniffles and I was laughing. Like this is COVID. This is the second infection of COVID. Okay, I guess I have it.

Well, you know, natural immunity is cellular. It's antibody, it's IgG, IgA, natural killer cells. Natural immunity is robust. And if you'd have your druthers on anything, you'd rather have natural immunity.

Of course.

It's true for measles. It's true for.

Well, with COVID, it was seven times more effective, right? So the PCR test. You know, I'm sure you've seen the video of Carrie Mullis criticizing Fauci, saying he doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about and that he's a bureaucrat and he has no business telling people. And this was a long time ago. This was before COVID. You know, I think this was, well, he died before COVID. But the false positives were through the roof, especially early on, because they were running so many cycles of the PCR.

Oh, tons. Here we are. Podcaster knows as much as a laboratory physician. I mean, everyone knows about the PCR test, even kids at junior high kids and high school kids. Polymerase chain reaction. So it turns out that any one of the genetic sequence for any one of these 30 proteins in this little ball, the genetic sequence is known. So if one can identify a few little base pairs of a genetic sequence that's exposed, that one can create what's called a primer.

Right.

Like with HIV.

That's what we did.

Yeah. With HIV, we don't rely on one test. We always have confirmatory testing. We use duality of testing. We should have done that with COVID. So the PCR test became this generator of false cases. This got reported. And what made it worse is the PCR test influenced attribution of mortality. So now that, you know, the CDC definition of a COVID death is that if you were PCR positive at any time and then you died, it counted as a COVID death.

Yeah, Elon was on the podcast saying that if you got bit by a shark and you tested positive for COVID, they listed it as a COVID death.

Right.

Well, they also were financially compensated for COVID deaths.

Yes.

This was a problem.

Well, it was the leading cause of hospitalization and the number one hospital reimbursement for two years. Two years. So the hospitals quickly learned the game. They're in the money and making money like anybody else. They're in the game. And so they would do PCR testing. And of interest, many of them dropped influenza testing. So someone comes in.

So they're doing 40 cycles, 45 cycles of PCR testing. They're dropping the influenza testing and they're getting compensated for positive COVID results, more than 80% of which are false positives.

And to make matters worse, Joe, some little old person who really has influenza, they would come in and get remdesivir.

Oh God. Oh God.

You know, influenza basically went away.

I know. Which is wild.

This is mind-blowing.

Wild. Wild. Which is also impossible. Actually impossible.

So it had to be gaming of the PCR test.

Yeah.

Gaming of, and you know, there's an example of what's going on now today of gaming with the PCR test. And you know the disease?

What?

It's measles.

Really? They're using PCR tests for measles? How many cycles are they running?

I don't know. But I can tell you Quest and Lab Corp have gone bonkers with measles testing. Now listen, a few years ago.

Because this is all because of a lot of anti-vax talk about measles and all of that.

Well, now it's easy. Now it's easy to ramp up the case count. So people are blaming RFK and Trump. Oh, there's a measles outbreak. Of interest, guess what? There's a measles outbreak in the UK. Well, Trump and RFK have nothing to do with what's going on in the UK. So testing is going through the roof. It turns out we've probably had viral exanthems, viral rashes forever, and there probably even breakthrough cases of measles that are, you know, not of any clinical import. Now everyone's being tested. And I've looked at a few of the cases in Pennsylvania and I'm enormously suspicious that Josh Shapiro, who is really taking aim at Trump and RFK, I think Josh Shapiro has basically given out the orders for the medical examiners to do measles PCR testing of deaths.

Oh boy.

So the gaming of the PCR and attribution of death is something we have to, you know, get a grip on. It's really bad.

That's terrifying. It's just, it's terrifying when there's financial incentives. The financial incentives that existed during COVID to list everything a COVID death and that COVID infections, that they were financially compensated for treating COVID infections when in fact many of them were false positives.

And the amount of money we paid for these hospitalizations, do you know that even in 2023, there was a paper in JAMA from Johns Hopkins of Omicron? You know, if people ended up on the ventilator that late in the pandemic, you know, the mortality rate was still 40%? 40% ventilator mortality. You know, early in the pandemic, I was on some calls where people were talking about 90% ventilator mortality rate.

Oof.

So wait a minute. We've had six years of the pandemic. Hospitals and doctors have a lot of bravado. They want to be really good at heart disease and cancer and surgery. And have you ever seen those billboards with the doctors? They kind of look like you, Joe. They're all jacked and they're wearing their scrubs and they're like fighting disease. Have you seen these type of, you know, the commercials for healthcare? You know, we're going to, we're the best in Dallas, Fort Worth. Everyone is claiming to be the best. Do you know what a single hospital claims to be the best at COVID?

Isn't that crazy?

This is wild.

That is wild.

Not a one. This was a number, this was a cash cow. Nobody claims to be any good. I'm on a standing committee in the Arizona Senate and House. And they said, "Dr. McCullough, how can we ever get ready for another pandemic?" I said, "Call in your hospital CEOs and CMOs and let's do comparative statistics. Let's do lessons learned. Let's do shared learning about this." Comparative statistics. She said, "They will not come in. They will not show up.

Why are you depressing me?

Well, we have, we have, listen, out of the pandemic, Joe, good things have happened. We formed the wellness company, Foster Coulson, founder from Canada, Peter Galuli, our CEO. We've got a wonderful board. We've got Drew Pinsky, Kelly Victory, myself, Harvey Risch. We have formed a nationwide global company with our own pharmacies, our own compounding pharmacies, innovative products and solutions. We have emergency medical kits. We'll never get burned with COVID again because we have pre-prescribed medications that get out to people.

Has ivermectin lost its stigma?

Oh, I think so. I think so. The pharmacies, if you go to CVS or Walgreens, they still won't fill it. But the compounding pharmacies are very good. Wellness company.

Isn't that crazy? The pharmacy still won't be filled.

They still won't. They still won't.

They still won't make it.

But wellness company, listen, we've got, we have the nation's Medicare care management contract for the senior citizens with Medicare. Big Dallas office and operation. That's where I am right now.

What if somebody gets something that they used to use ivermectin for before the pandemic, like yellow fever? Will they fulfill a prescription for that?

Well, you could do any parasitic infection, like river blindness, for instance.

Yeah.

But my experience is they will prescribe no, they will fill no ivermectin.

That is literally crazy.

That's the reason why we need the wellness company. We have pharmacies now and, you know, we only use our green-listed, FDA-approved, original pharmaceutical ingredients, the APIs, high quality. And I can tell you the next pandemic, people aren't going to look at Fauci or Zha or any of these people. They're going to go to innovative companies that are going to provide solutions and we're ready to do it.

Certainly Fauci. Certainly Fauci. Particularly after those last hearings.

Remember, remember the government didn't treat anybody. The CDC has 12,000 employees, $9 billion annual budget. They didn't treat a single patient. They don't operate hospitals. They don't operate clinics. They don't dispense drugs. This is very important. That's the reason why out of the pandemic, we've had innovative solutions arise. You know, there are now companies giving provisions. We have this recent, have you heard this American Fortress warning about having 90 days of having water, food, having provisions?

Yeah.

We have companies that can do it. The wellness company, we have medical solutions, you have Patriot Supply, you have all these other companies now. Solar, Elon Musk and his solar and cell phone service. People now, we actually have solutions, whereas years ago we didn't.

Right. Before we leave, I want to talk to you about the personal cost that you endured when you spoke out and when you were, you know, essentially a dissident. When you were in the beginning of the COVID pandemic, you were the person that people pointed to and said, "This is an example of misinformation." Like you said, you were accused of selling snake oil. Like, what was it like for your career?

Well, let me tell you, I didn't have a stroke. I didn't have myocarditis. I'm healthy. I'm older than you and I feel great. And so when you look at the people who lost their lives and the people who have been devastated by the infection or the vaccine, just the fact that we have our health, Joe, is so important. It's so much more, honestly, than our jobs. And I put my whole life into medicine since age 17. But what I saw was so horrible and saw people suffering.

But what happened to you? Like, what was.

Well, everything. Everything. I was stripped of everything. Professorships, editorships, grants, advisory panels, consultancies, you name it. If they could, they would have just pinned me up to a cross. It's just, it's so bad. And you know, I have colleagues in Australia and Europe and the UK and Canada and South America. They did the same thing as me. They did the right thing. I think history will record.

I think it will as well. Have any of those things been restored that you were stripped of?

Out of these professional downturns and there were lawsuits and money lost and corruption and great things have been spawned. We spawned the wellness company, you know, which is heading towards skyrocketing for evaluation, an IPO. We're going to be enormously successful. We have New York Times bestselling books. You know, I'm in my fifth office in Dallas, but I'm thriving now, you know, in a great environment. I'm the editor of a major journal after losing two editorships.

Wow.

It is airtight. It is airtight. And some of them have died. You know, our former chief of cardiology, when I was a division chief, had William Beaumont in Detroit, David Haynes. We have an annual ski meeting. David just dies right there in the hotel. He had cardiac arrest. One of my colleagues at Baylor in Dallas, cardiologist my age, Dr. Hermenes, he just dies of a cardiac arrest. It's happening. It's happening.

Absolutely. Another thing was the increase in all-cause mortality, which insurance companies were posting about. And that was extraordinary. At one point, I think it was like 40% increase in all-cause mortality for young people, which is nuts.

It's a six-sigma event. These guys, these actuaries know the expected rates of death. And all-cause mortality for working-age people skyrocketed. Great credit to Edward Dowd, who's a former, you know, financial manager who studied this very carefully. John Bedwine, who's studied the death certificates and what's going on. There's people who have all written books. The books will go down. There's dozens of books now that are very helpful to understand what's happened. But you're right, mortality has gone up.

They don't?

Have you heard anybody this season worry about Social Security running out of money?

I thought I have.

Fiscal responsibility. Well, fiscal responsibility has kind of gone out the window. But the point is, you know, there is an actuarial loss now. People, now the baby boomers are on the tail end of the baby boomers. Baby boomers are 19, gosh, what are they? 1960, 1946 to 1964. So on the tail end of the baby boomers. That big swell of the population now is all either older than me. Sadly, some have passed away. So we're going to see a big swell of the population pass away.

All right. On that note.

So we have to do better. The point is we have to do better. And I think people are learning the truth. Let's hope that through elections, let's hope through people seeking truth, getting a whole variety of opinions that we take a better course. And I think the future is bright, but the pandemic was certainly a six-year learning experience and it's going to go on for a few more years.

Agreed. All right. Well, thank you, sir. It was great to see you again.

Thank you.

And thank you for all your courage. I really appreciate it. And for your ethics and your morals. You're a good man. Thank you. Bye, everybody.