Transcript of Episode #86 Featuring Alex Tarnava! The inventor of the world’s only open-cup molecular hydrogen tablet! EVERYTHING you need to know about HYDROGEN!!

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I require it because I want to get to know them and find out just what they're passionate about so that I have the opportunity to then go research them and really dig in and learn. But it's always nice to learn what each individual is passionate about. A lot of people don't do that. I tell you this because my guest today, I always block off about a 15 or 20-minute call. I don't know how long we talked, and I told him, Dude, I better let you go now or I'm going to talk to you all damn night because I'm so fascinated and intrigued. And they said, Well, I normally do 60-minute recordings, but there's no way that you and I are going to get this done in 60 minutes. So we're going to have a little bit longer episode today because my friend here is beyond brilliant, and he's done a multitudes of things that I think most of you are probably going to be aware of, but there's some new things, too, that I want to get into. He's a self-taught scientist, but I find you to be far more brilliant than anybody that I know with 30 letters after their name.

That's why I was so intrigued talking with you. Now, he's the inventor of the world's only open-cut molecular hydrogen tablet. We're going to get into all of that. You can see his book here. This is one of the most innovative books that I've ever seen because it's got two covers and two sides of the way that it flows. You've got the new unit that we were just talking about. That's inhalation hydrogen unit. I can't wait to talk about that because it is fascinating. You've got the new app that's coming out that's talking about foods. That was the other thing where I was like, Okay, we're going to need a lot of time to go over that because that's talking about what foods have seed oils and really intense things that nobody does.

Then just the testing we're doing, too. Because we know all these contaminants in, we don't know how much is in. Even a lot of these certificates companies get saying that it's free of this or free of that. Then you do the testing, you see it's not.

Right. That's why I say we've got so many things we're going to talk about, but I can't do you enough justice on the intro, so I'm going to stop it there. Just know that he's done multitudes of things that we're going to discuss. Without further ado, my friends Alex Tarnaba.

Thank you for having me.

Thanks for coming down. I know it was a little jaunt. It's not terrible, but I mean, coming from Canada.

I was in Las Vegas on the-That's right.

You're at A4M, so you're doing the rounds right now.

Doing the milk run, going around. I'm actually heading home just to do a family Christmas shoot tomorrow, and then I'm heading back out. Oh, wow.

Hey, man, you know what, though? That's the life of people that are trying to make a difference. I would say successful, but successful people, that's by definition, right? But people that are making a difference and an impact, you are required to do a lot of Yeah, it's unfortunate.

There's a dichotomy in my thoughts on travel because I hate travel. I just want to be home when I'm traveling. I want to be with my family. I live in the forest. I want to see the animals, smell the trees, just be in nature, cook my own meals, relax in my home, be with my own thoughts, read, listen to music, and I don't get to do that as much when I'm traveling. But when COVID hit, after four or five months, I started really craving travel because just like you said, you want to do these conversations in person. You are so much more present in your meetings and conversations when you're seeing people in person. I found that all of my projects slowed down dramatically when I wasn't able to travel and go see people, talk to them on a personal level, connect and make sure we're on the same page and moving forward to the the same mission.

Somebody like yourself, as intellectual as you are, answered this for me because I think that part of the reason why people that don't like to travel as much is because they're such deep thinkers, they need that alone time. They need to talk, or I mean, to think. However, There is that need to get out and talk about what you're saying in front of people, with people in person, because it just... The conversations are always much deeper and more intricate when they're in person.

You get that contrast as well. I think we were talking on the phone. It's something I've been doing lately that's been expanding my thoughts tremendously, I have stopped reading philosophy and politics of people I agree with. I only read those I strongly disagree with. I call it learning from the loathsome because I find even the most hateful extreme people on all sides, they still observe the same truths as we do. But it's in their prescriptions that they deviate, in their causations that they deviate. If we discount what they see in the reality they see, then we can't understand how they came to these conclusions, and we can't understand how they're convincing others to come to those conclusions. To read those contrasts and think deeply about those contrasts, about the pathway that their thoughts may take get there, it helps crystallize my own thoughts to understand the truth behind everything. I often like reading extreme opposites back to back. I like it. Writing down the shared truths they see. I call them alchemical inversions. I might read, and I'm doing this in my second book called The Stonewall on Power, Human Nature, and the Failures of Justice, where I'll contrast the most vile misogynist against multiple second-wave feminists.

They really see the same thing and come to opposite conclusions.

I see what you're saying. It makes sense. I love that because if you stay in a comfort zone in this area of Everything is rainbows and unicorns. You never challenge yourself, and you never put yourself out there to actually learn something different. It's not good to just agree with everybody all the time and only look at one side of things.

That's why I like going on tangents and conversations, because you and I could maybe have some conversations on things we agree completely with. But if we have a curveball conversation where we don't know the waters we're about to tread into, then we learn more about each other, and we learn perspective on those issues.

I always like to learn some new concept or a different viewpoint so that I can antiquate, Okay, this dude may be onto something here, and I just never gave it the time of day.

A hundred %. And you get these very interesting perspectives from people that you don't expect to that maybe have an expertise somewhere else. But then they see something as an outsider that people inside don't see. And it's something that I believe in so much that I'm spending tens of thousands of dollars a month on editors for my books. And we are engaging in wars, basically debating each other because I've instructed all of them to be adversarial, not just with me, but with each other. Because I believe through friction, truth emerges. So long as it's respectable friction, everyone has to defend their position. But I've hired this team of brilliant editors from multiple backgrounds of political beliefs, expertise. Some of them are from high-level universities like Harvard and Stanford and Oxford. Others have left academia, disenfranchized, even what you'd say, conspiracy theories or what would they be accused of, but with plausible rationale behind what they think is wrong. And so I get these people all across these beliefs spectrums from different expertises. And it's often someone outside the field that gives an insight into the field they're commenting on. Now, they might not have the deep knowledge that someone inside the field does, but they see something from a different way.

Then it shifts the conversation, the debates we're having. But we always start with the book as one Google document, and then all of a sudden we have to split it and split it more and split it more because the comments will lead to often more text than is written in there. So the second book started as a chapter in Stress Hacked, and then the chapter balloon to 30,000 words, and that's too much for a chapter. I realized there's just way too much to talk about in this chapter. It needs to be a book. We're like, okay, maybe it'll be a short book, 50, 60,000 words. But these debates just kept ballooning, and I'm like, okay, we have to go down this rabbit hole and that rabbit hole, and now it's over 200,000 words, and I don't know where it's going to end.

You know what? Here's what happens, and this is a lot of the political stuff, which I absolutely… Now, I'm a very spiritual guy. I've made that clear to you before. In faith, and what I've learned through the Bible is you're supposed to avoid that type of thing. It's not good for you. It's contaminating, and I do avoid it. But what I've learned from watching it before, because I watched it for need and necessity, so I understand what's going around economically, how we're going to be affected. What happens? Well, people that watch who they agree with don't even give someone they disagree with the opportunity because the people they agree with embed into their head that those other people are terrible, they're evil, everything they say is bad. To humanize something. Yes. You never have the opportunity on either side to ever listen because you're already, before you even go into it, you're one track minded. I've fallen into that. I think we all have it.

Absolutely. Yeah. You mentioned the people who don't like to travel because they want alone time. That's a non-negotiable for me. I need time. Even when I'm traveling, I need minimum half an hour. I prefer one to two hours a day where I can be with my thoughts. To sort them out, to sort through the chaos. Introspection. But also to analyze the conversations I've had. We're all human. We all will have our emotions flare up. We are a different person at every moment, depending on what happened to us in the previous moment. Perhaps I snap at someone. Why? Well, maybe it was the interaction I had immediately before. Now, I might be mad at that person, but was I justified in how mad I was? Or maybe a misunderstanding led to confusion on both ends had escalated. I like replaying the worst conversations I've had in a day to try and identify where they went wrong, where they broke down, and what my responsibility in that breakdown was.

That's good. That's why I always like to talk, and I leave a lot of voice notes now because that loss of real communication, like you and I are talking your tone, if you text me that, it might come, I might not be able to read your tone, and I might take it in an entirely different way, and you might It would have not meant any way that I took it. None. That's why I think at the minimum, the voice notes that I do now are important, so you always know where I'm coming from and how I'm conveying what I'm thinking. But I am a big communicator. I like to do phone calls. I don't like to buy cars by text or homes like you can do now. I think that the reliance upon that has really led to a lot of problems that people are having socially How do even young boys ask a girl out anymore without doing it by text? Or the people that talk a lot of stuff behind a keyboard, they're doing that because they don't have any personal skills.

It goes in both directions. People say aggressive things that they never would have said in the past because there were real physical consequences. You're already saying that. That's true. But then at the other side, they're saying maybe vial things to a girl, and there's no repercussions. For saying that. You'd never say that to someone in person, right? But then you're also not getting the confidence, and you're not going through that productive struggle in, Okay, this didn't work, right? I tried to approach that girl, or I had that conversation with that person, and it didn't go how I wanted it to go. And we're not forced to think about why. Why didn't it go the way I wanted it to go? People are just powering through, sending a million messages to each other until they hit the lottery or something. It's a real breakdown in productive struggle and these lessons that we have had to learn about ourselves from the dawn of time until the last generation.

I know. My dad made me do something very hard when I was young that really shaped my ability to communicate. I was a sophomore in high school, and I got in trouble. We were trying to buy cigarettes after a football game one night, and we were asking people at the grocery store to buy cigarettes. Well, guess what? We asked an undercover cop, of all the people to ask. The guy goes in, calls the police, comes out. Police come, Get out of here. You better get out of here and leave. We start walking away. I see the police officer drive away, and then the guy walking back out of the store. I told my friends. I said, Shit, I'm going back down there getting our money. I back down there. The police rolled back around. I ran in the store. They came and grabbed me, picked me up. Long story short, they called my parents to come pick me up. My dad made me go tell my football coach the following day at 8: 00 in the morning up at school, myself, what I did. They would have never known. You know what I mean? They would have never known.

He made me do that. I always go back to that because that's when I say, that's when I really became a man in terms of, now, every time something comes up, I'm the one, my my mom, my kids, I'll handle it. Don't worry about it, because I've always been ready ever since then to go handle whatever because that made me fearless.

Yeah. I mean, we need to learn these lessons. We've talked to Emine, and I read about some of these in my book. My dad never made me do something like that, but he'd do other things. He'd dragged me to his shop, and I'd have to help him work until 2: 00, 3: 00 in the morning high school. Then I get home, I'd be so tired. Then as soon as I hit snooze on my alarm to not get up to school, dump ice water on me and say, I'd be like, I'm tired. You kept me up to 3: 00. He'd say, A man needs to know that the world doesn't stop turning just because he's tired. You have to get to school. Well said.

My dad used to come in. I lived in Iowa, so the winter's brutal. You know what he'd do to wake me up? If I wouldn't get up, just jerk the whole everything right off. Instead of, Go wake son, wake up and walk away. No, all the covers came off. The whole thing, just jerk it off, man. Imagine, back then, it's not like my parents had a lot of money, so even with the heaters on, they weren't jacked up and it was freezing. But you know what? That type of stuff people now would go, Oh, that's so bad, and it's so bad. Not really.

It isn't. I tell some of the stories, even what some of my football coaches did to us, and people were like, Oh, they go to jail today. I'm like, That is why we have problems, We need to learn how to overcome adversity. That's how we get stronger. That is why I wrote this book. We've known since the Greeks, probably before that, but Aristotle wrote it down. Even his ideas, like Eudamani, have been perverted in to say it's about happiness, and happiness is comfort. No, it's about a life of purpose, of productive struggle that builds your spirit, that builds your soul.

That's right. One of the things that I've really come to understand that's not an easy concept, I don't care how faithful you are, how much you believe, it's not easy. That is that these times of struggle and the obstacles that we've given are such a huge blessing because in reality, what it's doing is showing us and teaching us perseverance. Once we get through it and the strength that we build, and then what happens from it is priceless. It's priceless.

I 100% agree. So long as it's achievable. Yes. I agree. This is part of the nuance that I think a lot of people are missing. You get the one side in our current institutions academia and such, let's say any struggle is bad, it's harm, it's damage. People want to save spaces. They want to be weak, and strength is evil and toxic. That is complete bullshit. But on the other side, people glorify pain just for pain. We need the right amount of stress and struggle, followed by the right amount of a recovery to adapt and learn and become stronger, and then we need to move forward and expand ourselves again. I'm paraphrasing. I remember hearing a recorded lesson from Tony Robbins when I was maybe 19 years old, 18 years old. I'm getting the concept right. I might be getting the verbiage wrong, but he was talking your sphere of competence. And most people just stay within their sphere of competence, and they get to the outer limit, and they turn back and revert into themselves. Really, we grow when we get to that edge and we push, and we struggle, and we try to get through that outer edge, and maybe we just move a foot forward.

And maybe it was very hard, but now we've overcome that challenge, or partially overcame that challenge, and we have hoped that we can get even farther than next time. Now, our sphere is a little bit bigger. I agree. We just need to keep pushing the boundaries of our sphere of competence and capability more and more so that what was struggle yesterday becomes easy in second nature tomorrow.

I thoroughly agree, and it's well said. That brings us to why you wrote this book, the concept of it, because it's very cool. You told me before you sent it to me how it was and how it was laid out. I had a picture in my head, but then I got it and I was like, Man, this is pretty sweet. I have it sitting right next to my desk right now because I started reading it because of all the travel and everything. But what I've read is great. Talk about it Because I've made it clear to you that I'm a mind-body connection person. That's my whole purpose. That's the premise here.

It all started when I woke up from a trance and The reason I got into hydrogen, that I developed the hydrogen tablets and got into this field, I was in a totally different field. I had a health crisis. I was a semi-competitive athlete. I got a virus they couldn't figure out that caused an autoimmune response. It attacked my cartilage. I developed osteoarthritis in 11 different joints. This is my left shoulder. It's bone-on-bone arthritis with multiple labral tears. That's why I was just at CPI in Mexico a week and a half ago, getting 170 million stem cells. My hip is bad, my hands are bad, my back has four ruptured disks and a compressed SI joint nerve damage. I'm just a mess. But at first, when I lost that identity, with my strength, and my physical strength was part of my identity, it also collapsed my body and my will with it. I started drinking, and I started eating poorly, and I put on 100 pounds and became basically an alcoholic. Now, I wasn't following drunk every day, but I was drinking a bottle or two of wine every day. That's going to slow down your mind.

So it broke me down in so many capacities. And when I craw out of the abyss, then I just hung out at the edge. I didn't go back to climb, become stronger again. But as I climbed out, I noticed that the world was a little bit different than I remembered it. That we were pathologizing the pursuit of strength as evil and toxic, that people were getting weaker and more sensitive and all these things. It hit me hard because I had become weaker and more sensitive. I realized that the only way back was to fix myself. I needed to fix my health, I needed to fix my mind, and I needed to fix my purpose. And that's what this book is about, because it's all connected. So on the one cover, you have the mind, on the other cover, you have the body. They're inverted. We can show here. So I can start at either end.

I love that. In the middle.

So neither the mind nor body takes priority over the other. It's not like you start the body and then go to the mind or vice versa, you can choose and go whatever direction you want because they are equals. And the middle or the end or the middle, however you want to call it of each hand, there are mirrored interludes at the end of the body and at the end of the mind that are very similar but from a different perspective. And they are all about the purpose of strength or the weight of strength, as I call it. And I believe that our society has perverted our perception of what it means to be strong.

Understatement.

So we evolved strength when we were hunter-gatherers in wandering tribes, and it was selected for. Women wanted strength, and what did they want? They wanted a man who'd rebel and take her and others with them and start a new tribe. That man had to protect everyone, the leader. They had to be empathetic. They had to care about the people that were coming with them. Otherwise, who would follow them?

That's a good point.

Nobody would follow them. No. The problem is that these traits are very easy for people with antisocial personalities to mimic. Now, when you're in smaller communities, you can't get away with mimicking that forever because eventually, the mask will fall down, it will crack, and then the people around you don't trust you, right? And you won't be a leader. You'll be an outcast. You'll be shunned. But the larger society has gotten, the larger our cities have gotten, these people don't ever have to be around the same person long enough for their mask to repeatedly fall and break. They can act the part of being strong and a leader better than those who are actually strong and leaders so they can take over, right? And it is this co-opting of strength. But there are plenty of people with strength in society. We tend to just still focus on tending our own garden, on helping our families, on helping our communities, but we're losing the large larger macro battle for society. This is why people with strength need to get on the same page, need to understand what is going on, how it's all being taken away from us so that we can take back society for everyone.

Because at the end of the day, strength is symbiotic with weakness. It's the weak who protect the strong, the strong who protect the weak. And strength is about lifting up those around you. It's not about subjugating or taking advantage of those around you. So this is a weight of strength. And I believe to truly be strong, you need unity of strength in your mind, your body, and your purpose, or your spirit, or your soul, whatever word you want to use. And if you don't have this unity, if you are strong in two areas or not in one, where you're weak, corrupts you. It becomes toxic, and it turns where you're strong into a weapon, both internally in insecurity and externally on those around you. And this is why we need to realize the totality of what we are and strive for everything. Now, strength is different for every person. I'm never going to be their competitive athlete, again, but that doesn't matter. I just need to pursue as much as I can handle for myself. I need to judge myself against myself. Same thing with mind and purpose. It's all about always moving forward, one step forward at a time, pursuing this unity, not judging it against some arbitrary definition or random other person, judging it about yourself and your own mission.

Yeah, 100%.

You say that, and that's one of the things that when you say strength, a lot of times it's easily misconstrued by people. People now, more than ever, like to take words and jumble them and change them around.

Change the definition.

Mental strength is vital. I'll compare it to an athlete. You have people that have all of this ability in the world, and probably a lot that have, let's say, equal ability. But what separates a star from a superstar? It's their mental toughness in the clutch, their ability to perform and come through, and not only not be fearful, but want the ball at the end of the game, want to make the play.

Their will. You see that in individual sports. What makes someone great over good. Those who are great often aren't the most skilled. That's right. They're the people who do not back down, who do not quit, who do not give up and keep trying until their will overcomes the will of technically the better person.

Right. It's true. That's what separates a lot of things in life in general. People misinterpret what strength means. Of course, physical strength is part of that, but that's only a fraction.

Of course, intellect is part of mental strength, but it's only a part because intellect means nothing without wisdom.

That's right. Thank you. Thank you for saying that. That's another thing that gets lost in translation. It's like I said, there's a difference between faith and trust. There's a difference between intelligence and wisdom. Because wisdom is knowing how to use the intelligence properly.

Exactly.

Because just Being smart doesn't mean shit.

If you're just smart, but you don't have purpose and you don't connect with those around you, you weaponize it, you manipulate people, you hurt people.

One of the things, and you hurt yourself in the process because you disconnect from other people, and we're social beings.

No matter how introverted we are, we need connection.

That's right. That's exactly right. A lot of people, when they say prayers, they pray for certain things, they pray for people. This is all great. This is all wonderful. But when I ask for stuff for myself, you know what I ask for the most? Is compassion and wisdom. I feel like by having both of those, then you understand to be compassionate towards people that need it, but you also have the wisdom to know what to do with everything that's presented around.

I call it tempered empathy. That's really well put. We need to make sure our heart still bleeds, but not so much that we harm everyone else around it, that it's bleeding so much for a certain cause, but also that it doesn't harden into cold steel utilitarianism. That's it. Because we are both logical and empathetic, and we need to strike that balance.

Balance. Balance, balance, balance. That's mind and body with their own. If those aren't balanced, there is no way that you can really be healthy. It's It's possible. I can sit here and fix all your hormones, all your food, your fitness, all of it, strength train you into the ground. But if your mind is gone or it's off or it's struggling or it's stressed, you know this.

The same thing, you can be as brilliant as you want. But if you're inflamed and out of redox and your neurotransmitters are all screwed up, what is your intellect doing? Nothing. Exactly. It's crumbling. That's why we need the Both because they're connected.

Exactly. When I was at my worst was when I was probably knowing my most because my diet was so far off because I've had battle in eating disorder and the fear of fats and eating so little and not needing any fats. I couldn't stay focused longer than 20 minutes. Vice versa, some of the times where I've been in my best condition and eating right and everything, I'm so screwed up mentally and so stressed and so gone and angry and this and It's just off, completely off.

Yeah. When I gained 100 pounds, I was actually consuming less calories than before, but they were the wrong calories. I was so obsessed with figuring out the hydrogen tablets, and I was so depressed about my physical state. I'd forget to eat all day long, and then all of a sudden, it would be 11: 00 PM at night, and I'd order a pizza and open a bottle of wine. That would be my only sustenance of the-Right. Then I'd sleep three and a half hours and wake up and do it again.

How was your sleep? Then I already knew the hour. Okay, I want to talk to you then about the tablets because that's what you're known for at this point, although I I would argue that some of these other things to me are more impactful. The tablets are very impactful, very, very impactful. I want to get into the whole thing, your discovery, how you've made that be more mainstream now and discuss just everything that you can get into about the development of it and how you figured it out, and why do you feel that they're so beneficial?

I feel they're so beneficial because of the way I'm pursuing evidence about them. We have something like 35 or 40 studies on the hydrogen tablets, I think 24, 25 on humans, clinical trials. We have more research that's currently underway than we have published. There are a lot of studies that are either in a manuscript prep or under peer review or soon to publish that I know the results of that give me more confidence. That is actually how publishing works. Sometimes it takes two, three years to publish a study. Really? Those who are on the inside, if you want to write it properly, assess the data properly, make sure it's a good paper, go through the peer review process. We don't have enough peer reviewers. We talk about these credential fallacies. They're so desperate now for reviewers that even though I have no formal education, and I know we talked to... I'm actually in university right now because I have multiple PhD offers, but I have to get a bachelor's first, which I don't have. But because of my publication record, I have been getting asked to review multiple public publications that are supposed to only be for professors and stuff, but they can't find enough professors and people attached to academia to review all these papers.

So now they're getting desperate, and they're emailing people like me who have a publication record, and these aren't small publications. These are Q1 journals with high impact factors and major publishers. So there is a bit of a crisis in academic publishing. Actually, I write substantially about this, too. Our entire perception of what is empirical evidence is flawed, but this is a big tangent. It's based on the privatization of academic publishing that happened in the late 1950s, but that's a totally pep top shirt. Basically, when I developed the hydrogen tablets, I had been bouncing around from business to business, starting different businesses. I had offers for playing football, and I had great grades, but I had a bit of an existential crisis as a teenager. I was learning about finance. I was learning about compounding interest. I know we talked about this a little bit, and none of it sat right with me. Then I was thinking about how these were careers worked. I am highly autonomous, and I do not... I have what probably would be diagnosed as opposition and defiance disorder. I don't want to be told what to do. I thought to myself, My biggest interest is philosophy, after that it's science.

But how do you actually pursue truth in philosophy or science when you're beholden to financing? That's true. And you know, bureaucracy. And all of these oversights and overseers who are going to tell you what to do. So I decided I was going to do things a different way. I was going to pursue knowledge in all these domains as a hobby, and I was going to look at finance separately and accrue wealth to give me the freedom to learn about the things I want to learn about. That would always work for a time until it didn't, or maybe because I didn't, because these various careers in businesses I started, even though they were lucrative, I didn't care about them. They didn't give me purpose. They didn't bring me joy. They didn't bring me fulfillment. I'd eventually become disenfranchised and want to try something else. Of course. That just repeated, that cycle repeated. During those times, whenever I'd become disenfranchised, all of a sudden, I'd lose tens of thousands of dollars partying at the club. They buying designer clothes, living the high life to try and fill the hole in my soul. That was being carved bigger and bigger by all these career choices that weren't giving me meaning.

I understand that. Then I turned to fitness, and I just read more, and I decided money wasn't that important. I have enough to live the lifestyle I want anyways. But then my health crisis happened. How old were you in that? 29. Okay. I caught a mystery virus. They don't know what it was, but it caused this autoimmune-like response. My C-reactive proteins were 34 milligrams a liter, so more than 100 times abnormal. I had central nervous system fatigue. I couldn't jump an inch off the ground or do any explosive movement. I had chronic fatigue. I was sleeping 16 to 18 hours a day. I had sudden onset narcolepathy. If I sat down for a minute or so without stimulation, I'd fall asleep. The only time I actually felt okay was when I was exercising. But within an hour or so after exercising, even lightly, I'd crash and just sleep For the rest of the day. What more time was that? It caused a deep, deep depression. But when it started to clear, when the fog started to clear, I couldn't think properly with everything going on. I was seeing doctors, you couldn't figure it out. But then my C-reactive proteins dropped to three, which is what you might expect when you have the flu and a fever.

I was told to never exercise again because of the arthritis I developed, polyarthritis in 11 joints from this inflammatory attack. They put me on a thousand milligrams of nuproxine a day, I'm sure. That's super-alieve prescription strength and quarterly cortisone injections, told me to never exercise, like I said. I just knew at 29, that was not a forever solution, no. And all the time I'd spent training, I just dove into Pubmed and just I looked for anything that could regulate my inflammatory response and anything emerging. I was a massive skeptic. I was involved in skeptic communities. I hated the supplement industry. I hated anything on Twitter. I actually had a hobby of going on to these pages. Actually, I know some of the people now and find them to be very good people, but I would troll them and show that they didn't know what they were talking about. I'm not going to name names, but I had such a switch. When I got desperate, it was cathartic that I understood what appeals to people to go down that road, because there was no amount of money that I had access to that I wouldn't try anything.

If there's a single study in a mouse, I was going to try it to fix myself at that time. And I found a research on hydrogen and hydrogen water. There was nothing really commercially available. This is 11 years ago. There were the water I Organizer machines. Yeah, it's been a while. Bought a Cangen machine for $5,000. Went on my merry way. I was going into cryosanas before it was a thing 11 years ago, and real saunas, and going to chiropractors, which I'd never done before, and going to natra pass, and try everything, paying for devices, buying all these supplements. But I was still taking the nuproxine and the cortisol injections, too. Maybe nine months after, I was ignoring the specialist advice and my GP's advice, and I was still exercising, going to CrossFit, and still CrossFit. I'd stop martial arts, which I should have kept martial arts and stopped CrossFit. I stopped martial arts and I continued CrossFit. It was probably the worst thing you could have been doing. It was, but I was in such denial at the time about my situation. But about nine months into this, I fainted in the gym a few times over a couple of weeks.

I developed multiple ulcers. I wasn't processing my nutrition. So I had to stop the naproxen, and within a few days, all my joints ceased. I couldn't put on a jacket, couldn't put on socks. And I realized that nothing I was doing was working, just the drugs were working. You were bandaging the wounds in all of that. Exactly. I mean, in suppressing the inflammation, what was going on. And so I dove back into a paper, and I was searching, and I found a bunch of new papers on hydrogen water. And it really pissed me off because I had this $5,000 machine that wasn't working. It was a paper weight, but it just dawned on me, how do I know what dose I'm getting?

That's it.

And so I started buying the publications, they're usually 40 bucks, 50 bucks, 60 bucks, and reading the full material and method. I I found that none of the studies were using an alkaline water ionizer machine to make hydrogen like I'd bought. And so then I bought a reagent to test for it, and it was undetectable. So then I thought to myself, Well, I haven't tried hydrogen. So then I started looking. A lot of them were using magnesium. Others were bubbling gas into water and then pressurizing it. Getting gas tanks to commercial residence wasn't possible. So I started looking for magnesium. It's controlled by the DOD in the US, so I wasn't able to get that. But I was able to find sources in Eastern Europe and China. I'm an extremely obsessive person when I get my mind on something. I'm getting This may be easy powder, and it would come through custom saying, Silver paint coloring. So I already was like, Okay, this is a little sketchy. I remember those days. And then I started making powders, but the powder floats, and I'm like, Okay, right? So then I started compressing it and playing around, and was making these tablets, hand pressing, and bought a kit, like the hand pressing things.

I think the kit I bought was for drugs. You get a legal drugs, but it was making-Was it equals China, the kit you bought? No, it was someone in British Columbia. Okay. That was selling them in a less than legal way, I think, and fabricated it for me. So I was making these, and they were getting three milligrams a liter, three parts per million. And I was drinking four liters of it a day, pressurizing it in my fridge, drinking them the next day, making them, letting them build up, saturate. And within a few days, some of my joints started loosening. Within 10 days, all started loosening. I'm like, holy shit, there's something here. But then I had a sober second thought. I'm like, I know enough of the chemistry to get this to work. But I'm not a chemist. I don't want to win a Darwin Award. I don't want to poison myself. I don't want to... I'm dealing with elemental magnesium. It burns out like 6000 degrees. It's the white in fireworks. It's a munitions-grade powder, and it's making hydrogen gas. I feel like the Hindenburg. So I'm like, I better make... And I'm doing it in my kitchen.

I don't want to blow myself up either. So I found my founding partner. He's a PhD chemist from the pharmaceutical industry, designs molecules, synthesizes them for drugs. And at first, he called it the worst pseudoscience he'd ever heard in his life, and gave me all these reasons why it, hydrogen, has no physiological role. And even if it did, why you'd want to inhale it rather than drink it. We can get into that later. They have different distribution of body. But I had read every publication on the therapeutic potential of hydrogen at the time. So I was able to rebut him, give him answers to all his objections. He said, Well, okay, I did not expect there to be a single study on this. I still don't buy it, but Okay, I'll take a look at what you're doing. I was so excited that someone was going to help me out with what I'm doing because it was working. I just kept sending the paper every day, a new paper. Serendipitously, I sent him one on a certain disease model that it was a phase 2 trial with 60 participants that had really strong results. I didn't know it, but he was designing small molecules for that disease at the time.

Really? He called me and said, Hey, I want to meet you for lunch, and he had printed off the paper, and he said, This paper is like the others. I was just having to look at the methodology and the conclusions. But I'm a subject matter expert. I'm designing molecules on this disease, so I've had to learn about it. And unless this is broad, this stuff works. Are you sure you want to do this just as a do it yourself project, and that you don't want to commercialize it? And I thought long and hard, I didn't want to go into the supplement industry. I still had all my reservations about evidence and trustworthiness and everything. And I'm like, Okay, what are the regulations in being a drug? Could I raise money? And then so I started looking into raising money, and I started learning about shareholder primacy and all the evil that happens from that. Then looking at the regulations, I'm like, Well, I don't even think this fits the definition of a drug. It seems to be playing more of a regulatory role. It has pleotropic benefits. So back to the supplement avenue, but I'm thinking, How can I do this ethically so that I can sleep at night and look at myself in the mirror?

And this whole time, I'm I'm going down, and I'm still trying to make it because at the end of the day, I still want it for myself. Because we'd figured out how to... He'd optimized my formula for a mortar and pestle to make 20 at a time. Within a few weeks, I wasn't that far off. But Then to make them on actual production equipment, millions at a time at high speed, that was 16 months, 3,000 of itter of adjustments, and 15 failed scale up attempts. But again, I'm extremely obsessive, and I I would stop until I solve a problem or a challenge, as I think of them. We got there, we made our first production batch, and I thought to myself, I don't have a plan to sell these. I don't know what I'm going to do. I just wanted to keep moving forward. And that's how a lot of my life has been, I move forward and then make the plan after I figure something out. So I decided I didn't want to sell this unless I had a plan to see see if it was effective or not. And even though I was getting the same concentration that a lot of these studies were, I could use those, what if there's something different?

What if there's a different side reaction? What if something's going on that I don't know? I want to demonstrate it, and I want to advance the research. I emailed every first and every corresponding author on every study on hydrogen at the time. I offered them free product, free placebo donations to strengthen their studies, and no ownership over the data. Meaning that they can publish the results, whether it works or it doesn't, because I only want to sell it if it works. I don't think anyone is trustworthy enough to have that power, because what ends up happening? Say I have a contract that I get to decide if it's published, and now I've spent hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars and years of my life doing something. I could justify, Well, this trial was bullshit, right? They did it wrong. I don't want to publish it. And it's very easy to fool ourselves and trick ourselves in this way. So because I have that conflict, I don't want that power to do it. And that is this philosophy is why I have what would probably be valued in the research in the nine-figure range if it had been through contract research organizations, but it's been primarily government grants and investigator-initiated trials that they've gotten funding from their universities and grants and the government to do this research because they own the data.

And usually, industry won't do this. But because of the compromise I made with myself When I entered, I committed myself to doing it this way. And I'm just lucky and fortunate that it has panned out and that the results have been good.

You can't really get any more trustworthy or credible by the way that you went about it. I love the fact that you were willing to just publish it, whatever, because a lot of people are not like that. I don't think people understand what really goes on. See, I'm privy to some of that info as you are, that, well, if that doesn't come out right, you're not putting that out there.

Exactly. So if industry, and that is not just pharma, that is the supplement industry, it's worse there. Exactly. So when I mentioned shareholder primacy, so that was a Supreme Court of Michigan ruling in 1919. It was the Dodge Motor Company against the... Or sorry, the Ford Motor Company against the Dodge Brothers, who were investors in Ford at the time. And Henry Ford sent out a shareholder letter announcement saying that he planned to reduce the cost of the cars for sale and increased employee wages and benefits because he wanted to live in a country where everyone could afford a Ford.

Yeah.

They were on massive back order. They couldn't make the cars fast enough. I had that. Before, he wanted to do these things. And the Dodge brothers said, Well, no, we invested to make money. We don't care about your ethics and morality. Your job is to make us more money. You should be raising the cost. You're on back order, and you should be looking for cheaper labor. I didn't know that. And they went all the way to the Supreme Court of Michigan, and the Dodge Brothers won. Really? And that set the precedent of shareholder primacy. Now, what that means is at the executive level, the fiduciary duty of any executive is to maximize profit of the shareholder, and they have a legal obligation to do that. If they don't do that, then they can be sued, they can be terminated, they'll be blacklisted from industry. This is why I don't really believe in conspiracy. I believe in emergent behaviors based on the structure we are within. Because think, you live your life Maybe you get into pharma because your parent is sick, one of your parents, or your brother, or your sister, or your grandparent, and you want to find a couple, and you work, and you work, and you really believe, and you rise up, and now you're the chief science officer, or you're the CEO of a company in the industry.

Now you're privy to all the dirty dark secrets that are going on. But you have layer after layer of confidentiality agreements. You have your fiduciary duty. If you try and change things based on an ethical or moral stance, now there's real consequences. You can be sued. You can lose your shares, lose your income, lose your home. Your family is now in hardship. You are maybe middle-aged with children. You won't have any retirement. You lose everything. And at that point, basically everyone makes the decision we know they're going to make that they prioritize themselves and their family over society. It doesn't make them evil people. They've been put in a position where they're forced to do an evil thing. It's dangerous ground.

Like I said, I've been in the supplement industry I was in the supplement industry, I don't know, 15, 20 years. One of the main reasons I just got out of it for so long was because what I saw actually goes on back there. It's not just the production, it's also the competition on what they do to each other and what they do to get ahead. That's why I want to accentuate some of the things that you said, again, because it lends to a couple of things. One, your overall credibility, but two, that there are actually some good people out there that do things the right way.

I think most people are inherently good people, but they're forced to do bad things.

Yeah, I agree with that. I do agree with that. I think that there's a lot of people that I thought were bad before I got the understanding they're not bad. Some of their actions are bad or they were put into situations to be bad.

Then they justify it because they don't want to introspect and come to terms with the decision they were pushed in to make it.

So true. Done that? We all have. Yeah. Part of the reason that you and I are so aware of it is because we've done it, but we know not to do it now, or we grew from that and learned from it.

That's my thought. In the book, I write deeply about guilt and shame. I believe that they We need to be confronted. We need to feel them very deeply for an acute period and keep that scar, that memory of them, so that we don't do it again, but not carry it with us forward. Because if we carry it forward, it becomes a chronic stress that drives us down. But we need to feel it so intensely that we are dissuaded from ever behaving like that again.

That's so well said. My story, I went to I don't look at it anymore as, I used to beat myself to death that I have to fix this. I have to make this up to my mom, my dad, all the people I let down. I have to make it up to God. I have to do this. When I realized I did my time, I became far better for it, and it set me up to be what I am today, I don't look at it like that anymore. Do I regret the behavior? Absolutely. Who wouldn't? But do I regret it actually happening? No, I do not because I wouldn't be sitting here with you right now, nor would I have the sense of everything that I've come to be and learn right now.

That's why we shouldn't be thinking about regret, all right? No. We should be thinking, Are you happy right now? Do you like who you are today? If you like who you are today, then you have to be thankful for all your mistakes and all the trauma of the past, because you wouldn't be you today without that.

I wouldn't have met my wife. I don't know what the hell I would have been doing.

You could be a lot worse, right? I believe. We look back and we think, Maybe I would have been this. Maybe I would have been that, but you're not. You need to focus on the moment. Are you happy right now? And think about who you want to be tomorrow so that you can use the moment now to move towards that person you want to be. That's it.

Maybe doesn't do anything for anybody at all. Maybe it puts thoughts into your heads that are not realities. I don't do maybes anymore, and I don't do can'ts, and I don't do complacencies. I don't do any of that because those things impede our actual production. You know what I mean? I think focusing more on the realities would actually help people to be happier and be more productive and more successful.

Yeah, absolutely. Both on an individual level, and we need to think about that on a societal level also.

That's right.

We need to understand these big questions about who we are as individuals and how that equates to society. Because we try and structure society on how we think things ought to be, not on how they are. We try and build If we think of society like a building, every architect of society tries to make a building and segment everything in each place. But what we really need to do is understand the flow of individuals, the movement of individuals. And we need to build a course with guides and a track so that everyone can run the race of life within some guidelines and not be forced into rooms that are not within their innate nature.

I love that. Let me ask you this. Let's take hydrogen tablets, hydrogen water. What's the difference? Is one more effective Effective than the other? Is one proven better than the other? What's the take?

The hydrogen tablets are just a way to make hydrogen water. Now, the difference is the concentration in the dosage. Okay. With the tablets, It's repeatable. With a lot of the machines, all of them may work great when they're brand new. If you know how to use it, how to get the right concentration, the dose conversion. Everyone talks about concentration, parts per million. Right. But But if you have 100 parts per million in a milliliter of water, it's still not that big of a dose. The dose is what's important because that's what distributes into your tissues. We have to look at the dose you're getting when you're consuming that, but not just the dose you're getting, how quickly you're consuming it, because we know the mechanism in how hydrogen works. Well, there's a few mechanisms, but the one way it's working is something called a effector. It's binding to a specific protein that manages the mitochondria, like exercise for the mitochondria. It's a slight stress that induces these adaptive changes that we respond to. Sets off all these cell signaling pathways. We regulate our redox status via the NRF to keep one pathway. We regulate our inflammatory response through NF beta.

All these, it's a regulatory role. Like a supervisor going in and fixing things. It gets a little bit worse for a second, but then all the dials are switched and everything is working a little bit better. We know just like exercise, you're not going to get a workout if you do a wrap every 15 minutes or every hour. You want to flood your system with H2 very fast. You want a big dose fast, and then you don't want anymore. Because you want that spike of stress, then you get that adaptation when you're recovering. Okay. So a lot of companies and a lot of technologies in the market don't understand us, don't understand the mechanism of how it works. So with the tablet, in trying to understand the mechanism, in trying to get this way, that's why we recommend dropping it in the most water you can tolerate. Personally, I dropped four or five tablets in one liter, so that's 33. 6 ounces, I think, and I chug it. First thing in the morning, usually up and over, like I'm in a beer drinking competition.

But that's it for the day then?

Yeah. Sometimes I'll do it twice a day. I'll do a lower dose in the morning, a lower dose in the afternoon, and then switch it around. Just like we know with exercise, if you do the exact same exercise every day forever, it seizes to be exercise. Every six months or so, I do a one or two week wash out. I let my body seize up, stress out, and then I hit it from a different angle. But I do it like that. With the tablets, we know we get a consistent dose if they're stored properly and produced properly. They're designed for room temperature water within a range. Between three parts per million of total dissolved solids all the way to a couple. You don't want to use highly alkaline mineral water, and you don't want to use distilled water. Ro water? Ro water with remineralization is perfectly fine. Most half in bottle is perfectly fine.

Just from my understanding, because I haven't gotten into the tablets until I spoke with you in person, and tried that route. So I just use the water bottle, and I do four or five times a day. It's what I've been doing.

I do it. If you're using one of the... I think you're using the ECHO. The Echo water bottle, yeah. I think make sure you hear a pressure release. Yeah. Because the gaskets start going over time, and all of a sudden, you might drop from five parts per million down to 0. 5 parts per million because it's not pressurizing the unit. But I mean, five parts per million is a good concentration, so long as you get a good dose. So you're probably going to want to drink about a liter of that within 10, 15 minutes. You want to hit it a few times. With the tablets, you could do that in like half a liter, right? Because the concentration is about 12. Drop on in, takes a minute, and you just slam it as fast as you can. So you can get the same dose using the bottles. If the bottle's gasket hasn't been filled, you just I need to drink more water in that same short.

I want it to try the tablet. But I wanted to talk to you about it first, where I just say, Hey, send them. I wanted to get some understanding and some knowledge. I don't just start taking shit.

No, no. As you shouldn't, I don't either. I like doing deep dives before I do anything that I try. Then there's a lot of confusion, right? A lot of companies, the reason that it took myself and Dr. Tyler Aaron, who's a leading expert in arguably the world on molecular hydrogen and its physiological properties. It took us seven and a half years to design our inhalation unit, which is sitting at customs right now. When we were talking about it. Exactly. Because most companies don't think about how it's actually working. They see the studies that are being done by research teams, and then they make something, and they don't think, Am I making the same thing that's being used in the research? There's this disconnect. Typically, well, actually, all these other machines are using nasal canules. I've seen those with a constant flow. Before I get into hydrogen inhalation, because most people are like, Oh, I'm drinking hydrogen water. Why do I want to do hydrogen inhalation, too? What's the difference? Well, the difference is just distribution. Okay. So hydrogen water is primarily getting into your gut. It's interacting with your microbiome. It's affecting these second messenger services in the It has various hormones like GLP-1, Ghrelin, and so on.

It is also getting into a very high concentration in the liver and it's driving liver homeostasis. A large amount of hydrogen is actually metabolizing the liver. We don't yet know how, but it's leading to liver homeostasis.

What effect on grelin? Sorry, I'm just curious.

So a regulatory rule. Okay. Actually, most people think of grelin, Oh, that's a hunger hormone. You don't want to raise grelin. Exactly. That's actually not true. Grelin has a lot of purposes in our body. It's neuroprotective. It regulates our glucose homeostasis and our insulin response. Actually, what you see in healthy people, when you're hungry, you have quite high Ghrelin. That's the hunger cycle. And then when you eat, it drops to nothing. But in chronically obese people, it's just flat-lined in between. That's right. Something similar happens with GLP-1, too. It's similar to actually how insulin works. Hydrogen has shown to restore those peaks and valleys 5 grams per gram. Now, with GLP-1, we showed in our rodent research where we induced obesity through a high fat diet, that what we know with GLP-1 in early phases of obesity is it goes into hyperdrive, trying to overcorrect, but then the feedback mechanism breaks, and then we don't get any GLP-1 secretion. It's just always chronically low. Yeah, that's right. The same thing with insulin response going into diabetes. The hydrogen, actually, and this is just in rats, right? It's just rodents, so not humans. But we actually attenuated the false rise in GLP-1 in inducing obesity, but yet the hydrogen group was the only one that resisted waking.

Really? At the at the same time. Really? How? So they ate less. Now, we know that hydrogen is also affecting insulin, like I said, and it's also affecting some of the neurochemistry involved with satiety in the brain level. But then in humans, we looked at chronically obese people. Now, I was an author on this paper and helped design the study and write the paper, and it was on the tablet, so of course, all the ones I talk about are. But these were people who were chronically obese and middle-aged, and we substantially increase their GLP-1. We're also improve on triglycerides and cholesterol and sleep. That's sweet. We showed to attenuate the rise when you didn't want that overreaction rise and then restore function back to a healthy level in people with this metabolic stress.

Something you showed there because you said it really quickly, but you improve triglycerides, you improve blood markers. We've seen that stuff, too.

Over and over again. With the tablets, and again, as far as I'm aware, no other hydrogen water can say this, we have 21 validated structure function claims to FDA and FTC standards. So we've gone through this expert panel. We've gotten professors that are not attached to the company, that have reviewed the evidence, It's signed off that they're worked with our attorneys and understand all the regulations aside and signed off on 21 structure function claims that the tablets do. That these other technologies can't do that because they don't have the clinical research and the It's a clinical research. They haven't done it, and they aren't delivering the same concentration and dose.

Their claim is just hydrogen water in general. It's a very general claim without it actually tying to the actual product.

But there's a... People People get a misunderstanding with how the regulations work with the FDA and FDC. They think it's unregulated. Now, actually, the US Dietary Supplement, 21 CFR, is extremely detailed in what the regulations are. I know. It's just there's no enforcement. That's it. It's an opt-in compliance system. With the tablets, we have new dietary ingredient status with the FDA. We have grass status. We have opted into compliance in doing these expert panel reviews to get our structure, function, claims, and putting them through the proper channels. It's an opt-in to compliance system. Now, I believe that is by design because 99% of companies opt out of compliance. Now, what are the odds that the pharmaceutical industry is the most regulated and compliant in the world in the US with the most rules and the highest barrier to entry, but yet the supplement industry has a least compliance? So they can say, Look at these supplements, they don't do anything. That's right. There's a misnomer. People think that multinationals and companies don't want regulations. That's not true. They want inconsistent enforcement on regulations, and they want barriers to entry so that they can say, Look at the Wild West.

You can't trust any of this. Only we are following the rules. And now they've made the rules in these arbitrary manners that you need billions of dollars to be able to follow the rules.

I am so glad you pointed that out because I've been knowing that, but you said it so eloquently and put it out there in a way that... A lot of times people get emotional when they talk about if they know, and they don't say it the way you said it. It is set up in a way that they're always going to win.

It's set up in a way that it is not enforced against you until you really become a mid-nine-figure company. That's right. At that point, you were looking, Oh, my God, I'm going to go bankrupt figuring out all these regulations. I'm doing half a billion dollars a year, and I can't figure this out. And now you sell your company to one of the multinationals. They take over everything you've done, and you buy out, and now they've controlled all the supply chain and all the industry. And that's why they don't even try and innovate, because they know when you hit that glass ceiling where you realize the complexity of the regulations and you just don't have the the money to do it, you're going to lose control anyways, they're just going to buy you. Their inertia of everything they own is going to continue propelling them forward to create more layers of rules and regulations. Again, this isn't a conspiracy. This is will to power. It's everyone will do exactly what they need to do at any moment to benefit themselves. That's right. It's layers upon layers upon layers of billions of individual lobbying efforts.

You can see This is why when people call somebody a sellout or why did they sell this or they don't truly understand why. Not everybody is a sellout and has this exit strategy. Sometimes it's like it's do this or- Or you're under, you lose everything.

Exactly.

That's why I'm very careful about the comments I make anymore, because you need to know before you say things like that, because that's messed up to say without actually knowing what's going on.

Yeah, 100%. The more I study different fields, the more I learn there's There are a few things in this world that are black and white. Everything is nuanced, everything is complex. There is evil in the world, but it's far less common than we think.

It is. It's a lot easier to just say something that you feel as opposed to no. It's a way easier way out than looking into things and researching them and looking into them. See, people that think a lot, like you and I, we want to know the actualities of everything. We dig and we learn and we look at things, probably more complex at times, but we uncover a lot more actual truths, which causes less stress and strain on your overall mentality, too, as you're working because you know.

If you come to terms with the stone walls that exist within our nature, that's something Dostoevsky talked a lot about, the Stone Wall, and that's what my second book is called. A lot of people, when they come against these stone walls, these innate truths about our existence, humanity, our ourselves, our self, they give up. Yeah. They give up. But we need to learn to live with these stone walls, to erect systems that account for them. We need to learn to build shelving on them and ladders to utilize them because these are facts of life that we can't get around. In a lot of the things I'm doing right now, all of these regulations that are built that are being weaponized against us. If we understand them well enough, we can weaponize those back against the very people because they have put us in this prison, but they are in the same prison. We just need to learn the rules of the game. And the better we know these rules, We have the power. There's more of us. We need to learn to play their game, and then we can beat their game, and then we can take society back.

We can undo some of these rules that solidify power into permanency. There's nothing wrong with power. What is wrong is when power becomes so protected that it calcifies into a cancer that destroys society. Power has a purpose, and that purpose is protection and punishment. It's to keep order. It's to keep us safe. It's to make us stronger. Coming back to something that is big for you, and I know we We talked a bit that I was raised quite religious, but I'm agnostic now. But I do believe we need faith in something, because when we face these stone walls, if we don't have faith in something, we give up. My faith is in humanity. I call it faith because if you look at the evidence, the evidence suggests that we can't do better. But I believe we can do better. Yeah, absolutely. I believe we just need understand better, to have the right leaders that unite in a way, believe that the reason we failed so often is either our societies emerged from chaos, and people took advantage of that, or were designed poorly, not accounting for human nature, so they collapse that way. And I believe that real change actually has to happen from the groups that have never driven for real change.

Those are people who already have wealth and power. We always change from the actions of the youth, and the youth have no wisdom. That's wild, isn't it? They burn down society because they're angry and they see what's wrong, rightfully so. But destruction without intent of a plan is chaos, and worse comes from chaos. And that's why people establish, they don't want that chaos. They have that wisdom. But I believe things are getting bad enough today that enough people, and I'm not talking about the architects at the top that are multi-generational wealth or really trying to take over the world. When I'm talking about enough successful people who have made it, who have wisdom, who are still disenfranchized with the world, who have children that they don't want their kids to grow up in the world in the direction it's having, we need to come together to use the rules that have been erected to attack us, to attack those attacking us. Not with violence, not with boots and bullets within the law, within finance, with all in all these domains that our reality and the subjective nature of our reality is predicated upon. We need to turn the fight back against them using the rules.

And so this is not sedition. This is not breaking any laws. This is playing the game that our society is built upon, for better or worse. We play the game, we win the game, and then we read right the rules with the wisdom that we have on what it can be.

Love that. I love that. All right, let's talk about that inhalation, just a little bit.

Lots of tangents.

It's my favorite part of the conversation of the tangent because I'm learning so much. But I do want to talk about this because it's so amazing the work you've done. I know there's a lot of to it. I think first, though, just the understanding because you started talking about- I did, and then I went on a tangent to.

The hydrogen water is getting into your gut. It's interacting with your microbiome, your second messengers, like a second, secondary message, in your gut to your brain, these hormones. It's also restoring partial pressure of H2, which abandons it, and that helps restore the microbiome, with driving the liver homeostasis, as I mentioned. Whereas inhalation, it's going to your lungs, and then it's diffusing into your blood. It's rapidly circulating through your body. It gets your brain in a higher capacity, it gets your skeletal tissue, your heart. It isn't which is better. It's a, do you want an apple or an orange?

You need both.

Exactly. Yeah. In some cases, maybe hydrogen water is going to help you better. In other cases, hydrogen elution. In others, you might want both of them.

Right. For one, it's got certain benefits that the other doesn't. It wasn't.

You don't need them both all the time, right? Depending on what's going on. Say for a certain... Hydrogen water doesn't really get to your brain. Yeah. But these hormones in your gut have neuroprotective... I would get to say so they work in a different way. Secondarily.

Exactly. I like to stack stuff, so we can stack them together, right? Exactly.

With the inhalation, I talked about these nasal canulas in the constant flow. Now, those fundamentally do not understand our minute ventilation, how we breathe.

Okay.

So think about how a 90-year-old grandma with terminal lung cancer, having a panic attack might be breathing. And then think about how a 300-pound bodybuilder practicing deep breathing might breathe.

Right.

And you expect a nasal canular in a flow to deliver the same thing? It could be off by multiple exponents in what they're getting, right? Because we're not breathing at a constant rate. We maybe breathe 15, 20 seconds out of a minute. Say we're doing deep breathing. Right. We might get a liter, two liters, 3 liters even in a couple of seconds of time. Now, we can do the math. Say there's a liter a minute coming at that constant volume, just divide it by 60. That means the rest of what we're breathing is diluted in the air around us. All all of a sudden, we can be well below the minimum therapeutic threshold where hydrogen gas needs to be in our system to cause a physiological effect, or we could be over, because what we know in the actual research is we do these precise dosings, both on animals and humans, and we know that in certain instances, 2% might work better than 4%. In other instances, 4% might work better. Right. So right now, with the machines on the market, We can't get a precision dosing. Every person is going to get a different dose, and on every day, depending on how they're breathing.

So we can't say that they're therapeutic. They could be sometimes, but not always for all people, right? Yeah, makes sense. Not the right dose always for a lot of people. Second, the way most of these machines have overcome making sure that they're getting the minimum threshold is they make them more and more powerful. Now, most of them produce hydrogen oxygen under the false belief that this Brown's gas is better. Actually, we know it's not. As an athlete, you know you want hypoxic training. That makes you stronger, and we know oxygen is damaging. Going higher in oxygen, that could help you for certain people with certain lung conditions. But for the average person, more oxygen is actually going to do you harm, right? Most of the time, especially when it's done all the time. But anyways, they're ramping up the power on these machines. They're producing liters of hydrogen and Well, that's an explosive mixture, right? 66% H₂, 33%. O₂. We're already seeing the literature. This is published in the literature, over 15 case reports of detonations. What people are doing inside nasal pathways, blowing up, blowing people's nose apart, orbital bone fractures, burning people's lungs.

If this is reported in case reports like 15 times, how many times is it actually happening that people aren't reported? Really? So the questions we need to ask in therapeutics, the saying is safe and effective. It has to be safe and both effective. But that presupposes someone's financial intentions in valuation. So what I say is something has to be safe and potentially effective, but it always has to be safe first, but it has to be potentially effective. And then we have a responsibility to give honest information to people so they can have informed consent and say, This is preliminary evidence. It might work, but we need more evidence. It costs this much. This is where the evidence is at. And now a person could decide if that amount of money is worth it for them for the possibility. It's not proven, it's a chance. It's a chance, right. We need that informed consent, and we need to be honest about what products are doing. Hydrogen is not proven to do anything. It has very promising evidence, but we need to know where the evidence stands to give people informed consent, because this machine we have, it's like $5,000.

By the way, that is less expensive than all the other machines that we're competing with on the market, and it costs us more to build our machine. But myself and Dr. Lebaron, he's in academia. I have enough money. We want more people to have access to this. But $5,000 is still a tremendous amount of money for a lot of people. For me, it's nothing. I'm I'm like, Okay, great. I really like the science. I want one. Of course, I'm going to buy it. For the next person, maybe they go, No, that's too much money for me. I don't want to give that person, that it's a lot of money, false hope that it's going to cure their disease or do any of these things. They need to have informed consent. We are researching these things. There are studies. There are emerging studies. They're getting stronger every day, but it's not proven. People need to understand that. A lot is not proven How much is this money worth to you? Do you want to take the risk with the money for the chance, understand where the evidence is at?

For the potential benefit that you could get out of this.

You may not.

You may not, and you need to understand that going into it.

Exactly. We developed this machine. It took us seven and a half years because we had to figure out all these things. We wanted to make sure that we were delivering a precise concentration to all people, that it was always safe. You're not blown up noses and early bones or anything else. We know We know that hydrogen is not flappable or explosive below 4%. We know that the research actually explores between 1% to 4% of the fraction of inspired H₂. Any nurse or doctor that especially works in the ER, knows what fraction of inspired O₂ is. We need to know how much oxygen is actually getting into the system, not just what the flow rate is. What the fraction of what someone is inspiring is concentration. We need to ensure this fraction of inspired O₂. To know that whether it's a 90-year-old grandma with lung cancer, having a panic attack, or a 300-pound healthy bodybuilder practicing deep breathing, that they are getting the same precise concentration with every breath. We ask the questions, how do we do this? Because nobody's doing anything in this. Our machine, first off, it's pulling in air and filtering it through a HEPA It's cleaner air than the room you're in.

We're making our H₂, and the H₂ is variable. You can set it based on the power that will go to the membrane. It can be 1%, 1. 1, 1. 3, 2. 2, 2. 8, 3. 2, all the way up to 4, so by 0. 1 variabilities. Now, it's a closed system. They mix and they go into an inflatable bag made of silicone that has a three-litre capacity. We actually had to design a custom mask to make this work because we need to make sure that it's a closed system, that you are only getting your breath from this precise concentration of the machine. So when you inhale, everything from that silicone bag that's been pre-mixed to that precise concentration comes through a one-way valve into a full face mask. Then you exhale, and there's another one-way valve, and it comes out the top. That way, the CO₂ isn't coming back into the machine. The germs aren't going back into the machine, like bacteria and such. But also, the precise concentration you set it for is what you're getting every breath. Because of these elegant solutions we figured out, a lot of our competitors I think, are our cheapest large-scale competitor is about seven grand.

Some of them are like $33,000. They go crazy in price, and they're all using this constant flow that's potentially explosive, right?

Doing so scary.

We're 5,000. And we did that because at the end of the day, again, Dr. Le Béron has never endorsed a product before. He's been in hydrogen for 16 years. He only came on his chief side to officer because we agreed on the ethics and intent of the company. I make a lot of money from the hydrogen tablets. I have 100 labels that license off of me, and it's growing every day, and I have other businesses involved in. I believe that money is not the end. It is just a tool. It is a tool to spread what you want to spread. It's a tool to use towards your purpose. I think we have perverted that in our minds to think that money is the end. But money is imaginary. It's meaningless. The only thing it is good for, it is as an exchange for true wealth. And what is true wealth? True wealth is resources. It's natural resources, it's manufactured resources, and it's human resources. And we live in this society where we sacrifice the real, we betray the real in pursuit of the fake. But the fake, we just need to use as a tool to lift up the real, to benefit the real.

I think about what I want. I want a stronger society. I want people to be healthier. I want people to be happier. And I want, of course, I have my own aspirations. I want people to trust me. Because the second we betray people, that's our It's gone forever. I try and structure everything that I do from a business standpoint to consider resources, particularly the human resources in relationship. What is going to create value? What is going to help people? The more people I help, the more people are going to help me.

That's right. Credibilities. That's the foundation of what I built everything I do on. Without it, you have nothing. You can have all the money in the world, and if you have no credibility or integrity, you literally are the brokest individual on the planet.

You're always running. That's right. Always unhappy.

Always, always, always. One thing I do want to say is You pointed out these companies that do this, that they're not safe because they live under this more is always better concept, and that's how they trick other people.

I really want to say I know a lot of these companies. I've talked to them. I don't think they're bad people. I think they don't understand. That's one of the biggest problems is most of these companies are all marketers. That's it. They read the science, they get excited. Maybe they try it and they think it works for themselves, and then they just hit the ground running, and they don't slow down to think, How does this work? Why does this work? How do I do this properly?

You know how many years I've seen that in research chemical company sites that they pop up every day? They come and they go like nightclubs because they don't understand how it works and what they're doing. So they just disappear. All they see is a profit margin that really doesn't exist because they're not looking at any other business aspect that goes into it. They're looking at raw materials and nothing else. No marketing, no website, no nothing. That's what some of the people I assume that they're seeing. Some of them may say, Wow, this is the most amazing thing. It could change their lives. But then they see dollar signs and they say, Well, we'll just make it this and cut this corner and do that. Then before you know it, you're killing people or hurting them. It's dangerous ground, man. It's dangerous.

It really is. I see this big problem that we have in society. In so many domains, there's two extremes that people fall into. People go, Oh, well, this is crazy. It is when big corporations own their scientists, and they tell their scientists what to do and what to research and prove our perspective. That's not how science and the truth works. But then you get the opposite side where companies are adversarial with science. They think it's, Oh, no, no, no. That's all corrupt. I know what works. That's bullshit, too. Realistically, Good ethical business should have a friendship with science. They should be guided by science. I agree. Scientists want to work with companies who have a dedication to integrity and the truth because that makes them happy. They want their discoveries out there. They want things to be used the way they're researching it. When you follow the science, when you do things, how it's done in the science with integrity, those scientists help you. They become your friends, and they lift you up because you're lifting their research on it.

That's right. Well, I knew we were going to talk a long time, so I want to make sure before we have to go that we talk about your food app. That's a big It's a big thing to me, too, personally. A lot of the work I've been doing now with some pretty big people, you've watched, you've seen it. I'll let Rene name it nameless for now because all the stuff's going. But I've been doing a lot of work on Improving our food, helping people understand what's actually in our food. I've been tasked with a lot of people that are suffering, man. You know that. I take this very personal. When you told me about this, I want to make sure has an opportunity to understand just how deep you're going on this and the impact you're trying to make.

Yeah, absolutely. I want to say first off, so I jumped onto this company when they approached me. It was founded by a friend of a friend, and they connected. So they came to me for advice on getting to this industry, and they asked for half an hour of my time. I work like 110 hours a week. I'm like, Yeah, I'll give you half an hour. Then we talked for a couple hours. I was so fascinated by what they were doing, but they had never been in this space or learned how do we approach people with influence? How do we do this? I gave them advice. I didn't ask for anything, but then I was like, That I really love this. I contacted them. I'm like, Are you looking for investors? I would like to invest in this. And they're like, Actually, we wanted to talk to you. Would you be willing to come on as a strategic advisor? I'm like, Absolutely. So it's an app, and they've been working on it, I think, a couple of years before they contacted me. So it was getting ready to go. Basically, you'll be able to go into your grocery store.

We're actually just the testing now. Scan food. Now, it's only going to be maybe 5, 10,000 products at the start. There's a million, but they're high. Exactly. Every month, we're going to be putting a third of our budget towards testing. But you'll be able to scan a food item, and it'll come up. If it doesn't come up with the test results, it'll say if there's seed oils or GMOs, if there's certain dyes or chemicals that are banned in the EU or Singapore or Hong Kong, say what levels are in them and what the threshold is in other jurisdictions so that you can make informed consent. But the thing we're doing that other apps aren't doing is we are doing testing. We're testing for heavy metals, we're testing for pesticide residue, we're testing for microplastics, a BPA, we're testing for PFAS. We're testing for all these things so that you can see what the actual levels are. Now, we're sitting on some explosive data. I can't get too much into it. It could. It would be a big PR push. But we tested a number of organic baby food products. I'm not going to name brands, but seven of them had more glyphosate than fruit loops.

You're shitting me. Organic ones. Organic. I think there's going to be big class action lawsuits coming out from this testing we're doing. I jumped on. I have been very passionate about this project, and I don't even know what percentage I own It's only a few %, right? We have some big, big names on track, but I've been dedicating hours a week to this because it's just something I think needs to happen. And it's again, when we talk about weaponizing the rules against those harming us, this is one thing. There's some good things happening, don't get me wrong. There's some change that's occurring, especially on state levels, a little bit on the federal. But at the end of the day, it's one term and not as much as happening as it needs to be happening.

No, it'll never go as far as that we would need.

Because the lobbying efforts to stop it are too big. But they are all bound to that shareholder privacy. We talked about. If this app comes out and we're going to be scoring brands and corporations based on their total portfolio. I love you. You'll be able to say, Oh, how's Kellogg doing against Nestlé? In these scores. Well, that's going to affect bottom line, their share prices. Especially when we have these various influencers that all have millions and millions of followers that are posting the results and showing what's going on here. Well, now people are going to change what they're buying, their buying habits, based on this data and this knowledge. Now, their fiduciary duty at these corporations is going to be to clean up their fucking act. We know they can do it in places like Hong Kong and Singapore and the EU, so they're going to do it here in America. We're going to force it by attacking their pocketbooks. That is how you get change. I've spent way more time on that app than I should have from a financial standpoint. I helped the security a couple of million dollars from an ISO-certified lab and testing.

Got some big names on it, but it's something I believe in because this is the type of rebellion that I want to see. Rebellion within the confines of the law.

But you're ensuring the accuracy of this and-by a third-party ISO-certified lab. Dude, I'm not trying to tell you what to do with your money and what's worth it and what's not, but this is well worth it. It is because of the amount of people, and you know this, and it pisses me off, and I'm sorry, but the amount of people that needlessly suffer daily in the accumulation of shit that kills people at a young age and all the diseases that goes on that is simply because of what's put in our food unethically and knowingly. Knowingly is the biggest problem. Even unknowingly is bad, but knowingly, this needs to happen.

We're going to be doing something else because I think this is apolitical. I think it transcends that race.

Oh, yeah.

We know that this has been an issue on the right. I started thinking, I don't want to alienate the left. They're suffering, too, from all this stuff. Absolutely. We started doing some thinking, some research into this. There's been actually a a substantial amount of research that a lot of these multinational corporations, when their lots fail, they fail specs, they will find a jurisdiction, maybe a state with lower regulations, and they'll ship them to low-income neighborhoods. We are going to be doing head-to-head testing like a Whole Foods in Malibu versus a rural, low poverty neighborhood in Mississippi, and it's short and the side-by-side because this needs to change.

I love everything that doing, but that hits my heart string a little more. You know what I mean? That's where I'm at. I love it. There's apps that show things that are in foods and this and that, but you're going a whole different step. Oh, yeah.

We want to know, right? Yeah. You know what? We're doing another thing, too, because when you know industry, you know that you're going to get some really false results. We know this, and we want to be fair. We don't want to just attack corporations because we might get an extreme result that isn't normal for their product. They might have 20 manufacturing facilities across the country pumping out five lots each per day. It might be an outlier. That's right. We'll have a program that if they think the results are abnormal, they can pay for the testing and test random lots off the market through our lab until it hits statistical significance. I love it. And then the average is posted. That's beautiful. So that we get... But we can't afford to pay for 100 tests. No. On that. So the major corporation can, but then they clear their name. And now we know where that product stands from a statistical significance. Well, if it's Danish Wharton, they'll pay for the test and prove it. Exactly. So we want to give them that option. We want to be fair to them. Yeah, absolutely.

You'll be able to tell a lot the reaction that comes from somebody that has a score. If it was me and I was like, no, that is not possible, I'd be the first one to call you and say, Let's do this.

Let's fix it. Yeah, and we'll say, We hope you're right. We hope we got a bad lock. Because at the end of the day, we just want better product. We don't want a fear monger. We just want better products in the market.

Yeah, absolutely. All right, man. We got a book. We got the badass app that I'm freaking out about over here. We got the tablets, the hydrogen tablets. We got the inhalation system.

I haven't even talked about the AI that we talked about that I'm developing and the disruptive real estate app. That can be saved for another time.

Oh, that's hard, too, because I already knew we'd have to do that. You got a lot going on, my friend. But what I will say is it is super impactful with, I find beyond commendable and appreciative, not just for me, but I'm sure everybody that I could speak for. But I love not just your intellect, because that goes without saying, but I think it's where your heart is that I really like the most that you pair that with the intellect and use your gifts in the way that they were supposed to be used. For me, and I think for everybody, I want to highlight that and give you the appreciation that you deserve.

Thank you. I did I write about it in my book. I don't think I can take credit for it. I think the chaos and catastrophe I went through forced me down this path. I think there are countless people that have high intellect and high integrity, high ethics, morality that give up, that they fall into depression. Because I think they can't change the world. I think we need to wake those people up.

Yeah, I agree. 100%. I'll link all of this for us, for you in the description, but tell me or tell the audience where the best places to follow you. In some places, they can go get some of this cool stuff.

Yeah. I have my personal site, alecstarnava. Com. Same on social medias. I've been doing a lot of content recently. I'm not a big social media guy, but I want to get my message out. It's like an evil I have to dabble into type thing. You need to. Type thing. But what I'm doing, say, with the book. Now, the hard cover, I have to charge for, obviously. That's a lot to print. But again, I'll say, and this is just more, I want my ideas out there So I'm actually paying a tremendous amount of money to try and get my ideas out there right now. So I don't want to make money off that. I want them out there. So don't think you have to buy my book. It's free as a PDF on my website, and it's free as an audiobook on my website. Now, if you do want the hard copy, it's almost on setting up, but I have a nonprofit I'm setting up, and all the money will go to that nonprofit, and all funds will be used to advertise for the book. So no revenue will go my way, because at the end of the day, I just want the messages out there.

Well, man, beautiful. Then the inhalation machine and the tablets, where can we get those?

The inhalation machine is Inhal H2. We'll get a link and offer a special. I'm not that involved in the business side, so I got to get my team involved there. The tablets, there's about 100 brands that distribute them. We list some of them on my licensing website, which is hydrogenwater tablets. Com. So you can see some of the brands there. But some of the bigger ones would be Dr. Mercola, Dr. Gundry, H2Tab from Gary Braga, Dr. Amen, Sprane MD, Timbiotica, Quicksilver Scientific. It's awesome.

Very cool. Some good companies that I know, and Dr. Gundry is a friend of mine, good people. And then the app, lastly, when's that coming out?

So we just started testing last week. I am hoping January, but I have my weekly call next week with the managing director. I think sometime January or February, it'll come, but it's VeriFoods, VeraFoods. It's a V-E-R-I-Foods. Com. We'll talk about that. Go to the website, sign up for the early access. We're going to be doing some cool things on the app. There will be an affiliate, it's going to be a subscription. But say if there's something you really want to test, you'll be able to pay for the test on that item and then get a lifetime free subscription to use it. We're going to do community voting, so we don't want to designate what products are important to people. You can go on and upvote. What product do you want to see the results are. Tell your friends, get it to upvote, get them to donate five bucks or something towards. We're going to be doing everything on a priority basis based on what people want tested.

That's sweet, man. I'm looking forward to it. I'll help you with all of this, but especially with that. You just let me know. I'm happy to get involved with that. Like I said, man, thank you for coming to see me. Thank you for the conversation, the intellect. I think more than anything, you gave people some Some hope and belief that there are good people out there doing really good things and that we can all find that within us and really make a difference.

The reason I have faith in this is because we are a community. We Our humanity. That is how we evolved. We know that it came from that symbiosis, from that we work together. That's how we all competed, other hominids. We worked together. We were a community. We We've lost track of that. We need to wake up and remember where we came from so that we can get back on track to where we need to be.

I love it, man. Awesome. Well, I appreciate it. Like I said, we're going to certainly have to do this again at some point, and I think we already knew that going into it. All right, everybody, that wraps up another one. I hope you enjoy this and really take it to heart and take a lot from it. So stay tuned for plenty more to come. Dylan Jameli and Alex Tarnava signing off.