Transcript of Episode #161: What’s Making You Sick: Cholesterol, Mitochondria & Chronic Disease Featuring DR. WILL COLE!!

But healthy people don't need pharmaceutical drugs. It's not a great business model to get people healthy for a certain industry.

Funny story here, maybe not so funny. In prison, I learned that ibuprofen was the answer to everything.

I think we all need to do it, especially in this age of AI. To be pro-human is to get out there, to reach out to people, because there's a loneliness epidemic. I think it was out of MIT that found that people that use AI to write essays, which so many people do, it was associated with a 55% decreased use of the brain.

Dr. Cole, are you indicating that crushing LDL is not optimal? for cellular health.

I know, shocking. I would say that's one of the worst things you could do. It's probably easier to change someone's religion than the foods they eat. People become so ideologically tribal about it, right? They make it their personality.

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So visit justthrivehealth.com/dylan to claim your free digestive bitters with your first 90-day probiotic All right, everybody, welcome back to the Dylann Gemelli Podcast. So, as you can see, I am back in Nashville. I'm actually in our good friend Dr. Josh Axe's studio. And, I will tell you, today's already been amazing. I have been working on this interview, well, since November since I met my guest back then. We've been trying to figure this out and it's been a long time coming, but we know God's timing is impeccably perfect and there was a reason for this. And, I feel like I'm in the presence of a man who's I feel absolutely amazing about the discussion that we're about to have. And it is, like I say, a real honor to have my guest here today. He is one of the biggest beacons of light, not just in biohacking, just in health and wellness and, and the whole entire space. Now, he's a leading functional medicine expert, and he consults people around the globe. And he's one of the most recognized functional medicine doctors and experts that you will ever see. He's got a new book coming out.

It's called Heal Your Cells. I have already been privy and blessed to read some of this. He's got one of the best podcasts known to man. I know that you've heard of it. It's The Art of Being Well. I can't give him enough accolade. There's only so much that I can say before we get into this. I am honored, pleasured, and just cannot wait to introduce my guest, Dr. Will Cole.

Thanks, man. I need you as my hype guy on the daily, just like, That's my morning meditation mantra. I just want Dylan speaking my— I'm also married to 2 golden doodles and 2 kids, Enneagram 5, long walks on the beach.

I love it. I'm known for my intros, bro.

I love it.

I get lucky here and there on what I do.

I love it.

No, man, look, like I said, we've been trying to set this up for a while.

Yeah, I apologize. I'm hard to nail down sometimes. I'm just like an introvert that lives in the woods. And like you said, Divine timing. It's God's timing.

It is. I live through a calendar anymore, and I still— I go 7 days a week and still can't do things properly, so I get it. But it is— I meant what I said. It is a real honor to sit here and speak with you today because I respect so much of what you do. It's not just the knowledge that you carry, it's the will, so to speak, on how you do things and what you overcome, what you deal with daily, and your drive to improve people's lives. You know, functional medicine for me is everything. When did you discover functional medicine and why did you make it your life's work?

Well, we go by different names, right? I mean, functional medicine I think is a subset of root cause medicine, right? It's a subset of seeing the body as integrated, another synonym of it, and It would be integrative medicine, right? Integrative medicine and functional medicine have a lot of overlap. Of course, there's going to be differences as far as maybe one's a bit more conventional, maybe one not. But all of this is really part of a larger, I think, perspective of how we see the world. My passion of health goes way back. I mean, I grew up in a home that was kind of revered looking at root causes and why we're having this epidemic rise of chronic health issues. My dad was in the health space, was a bodybuilder in the '80s, and I thought it was normal to have your dad lubed up with baby oil with a turquoise Speedo, with my mom and this camcorder trying to get the poses right and going all to the competitions. Turns out it's not normal to have your dad doing that at all. But the— not to say that the— I mean, you're from this world too.

It's not to say that the bodybuilding world is all healthy, but my dad was interested in health and bodybuilding. It wasn't just sort of the maniacally measuring food and everything. It was interested in health and also this bodybuilding. So, it just— we definitely lived differently at home than my friends. I ate differently at home than my friends did. We went to the local food, health food co-op at the time, and there wasn't the options that we have now. There was limited— I mean, the health space has changed so much. So, we're talking about the 1980s, 1990s, like growing up That was my world, was just, we went to the farmer and got the raw milk before it's— now raw dairy is like a trend, but this is the '80s and '90s. It was an honor system. We'd put a few dollars in the bucket and draw our own milk out, the local farmer. And yeah, I just was crunchy, I guess you could say, at the time. And then that became a personal passion. It wasn't just because something my mom or dad did at home. I made them kind of look average because I became kind of obsessive as a teenager in a good way, not in a negative way, but just passionate about, I guess would be a better word.

Yeah.

Passionate about foods and human optimization and health sciences. And I guess you could say biohacking before biohacking was a thing. I used my first paycheck to go— I worked at Finish Line, you know, the shoe store in high school. I worked at Finish Line. Made money at the finish line at 17, 18 years old and would go to the health food store and buy the latest herbs or supplements or whatever that I'd be reading about. And then that just evolved from a personal passion to want to be formally trained in this. So I went to an integrative medicine school called Southern California University of Health Sciences, and I'd heard of a guy who'd gone to my school— to get to your question more pointedly, his name was Datis Khorrazian— who had gone to my school. He was older than I was, but he was talking about this very niche-specific subset of health, uh, health sciences called functional medicine. And even today, Dr. Karazian is one of the kind of leaders in the space on the academic side more than anything. And, um, that's how I would say it got granular for me. Instead of it just being about health sciences, it was like, okay, what was this going to look like more practically for me?

So I just, yeah, I moved back to, to Pennsylvania where I'm from, from California where I went to school, and I started the first functional medicine telehealth clinic 16 years ago. And it wasn't because at some genius move. It was I lived in the woods and nobody else did, and I had to figure out logistically how could I get labs, how could I get protocols, how could I— because I'd be writing about it online because I love to write and I like to educate people through writing. So I was one of those early guys— this is 2009, 2010— writing about functional medicine and articles. When the internet was completely different then, I mean, there was no algorithm. It was just you put this information out there and it touched people around the world's lives. So then one thing led to another of people different in different states and countries needed to figure things out. We didn't even have the language of telehealth 16 years ago.

Right.

We called it a virtual functional medicine practice because that was the best I could come up with to kind of explain how I could get someone in, you know, Idaho a poop test. Like, just figuring out problems. It was figuring out solutions to problems that I saw, and people wanted access to this health information, this field of healthcare called functional medicine, and I was the one that God worked through.

I love it. I interviewed Dr. Jeffrey Bland several months ago.

Legend.

And we got into like the key core foundations of functional health. But I wanna ask you, 'cause I don't even know if I asked him this, and because I was so enthralled into like the depths of everything that he did, how would you personally, Dr. Will Cole, define what that actually means? 'Cause, you know, people have their own thoughts about functional medicine and what it is. What in reality, If you can simplify it and then expound upon it, what is it?

Yeah, and Dr. Bland, I mean, he is— he is— I would say our industry recognizes him as kind of the godfather of actual— like, he's the guy that the name functional medicine, he's the guy that popularized it. Uh, and such a humble guy too, right?

Dr.

Bland, I mean, like, you meet these legends that are just— they could be kind of different in person And we see that sometimes too, people in our space where they're different in person than they are. And he's not. He's like, he's the same. He's just such a humble guy.

And sharp, like so mentally sharp.

So brilliant. So, if I had to boil it down, first thing is we interpret labs using a different reference range. So, anybody that's watching this or listening to this will know when they get their labs, there's their number and then there's that reference range, this X to Y interval. We get that from a statistical bell curve average of people who go to labs, and people that go to labs aren't the healthiest population. So, there's a lot of people that intuitively know something's off here. My weight gain, my anxiety, my digestive problem, my hormonal symptom, whatever you're dealing with, your health goal that you want to address, they go to the doctor and the labs come back normal.

Uh-huh.

What they're unintentionally being told is that they're a lot like the other people that they're being compared to. They're a lot like the other people that are in suboptimal health that they're being compared to. The labs are there to rule in pathology and to diagnose a disease and match it with a pharmaceutical drug. That's largely what it's for. So, it's not looking at optimal health. So, in functional medicine, we're looking at optimal, not average. Where does long lives live? Where does vibrant wellness? Where does the body function the best? That's where we get our name functional medicine, the functional range of labs. The second thing, we run more comprehensive labs. So, this is things that are— what are the upstream root components to why they have the issue? So, there's many examples to this, but again, the labs that are ran in the conventional model are ran to give the pharmaceutical drugs largely they need for specific diagnostic ICD-10 coding and things like this. So, it's this sort of medicinal matching game, and that's sort of determining what labs are ran and what labs aren't ran to determine diagnosis. Labeling and diagnosing it someone was is important, but we asked the question, which is the question that's being explored in the scientific literature when you look at different health issues: Why do we have this problem in the first place?

It's not a pharmaceutical deficiency. So looking at things that science is exploring, like underlying gut problems, like environmental toxins, like nutrient deficiencies, like hormonal imbalances that are more complex, like chronic stress and unresolved trauma, and having these conversations that can't be directly. ran on labs but need to be looked at. And then biotoxins like mold and bacteria and viruses and parasites, a confluence of factors. But they are extraneous, they're superfluous from a conventional model. Like, why would we run it in mainstream medicine? Why would we run a gut health test or environmental toxin test if the end result's still going to be that medication?

Mm-hmm.

But we ask the question, okay, why you have the problem in the first place is really actually important. So, you can, A, address it and heal, But then secondly, there's actually a lot of— there's a lot of context and nuance at play. So for example, like the thyroid, there's a lot of— all they need to give you Synthroid or levothyroxine or some sort of thyroid replacement hormone is a high TSH and a low T4.

Yeah.

All right, there's a lot of underlying thyroid problems that are, A, missed by just running those 2 biomarkers, but even if those are off, is it underconversion of T4 to T3? Is it autoimmune Hashimoto's or not? Is there a high reverse T3? These sort of break— Analog, the whole point being— the whole— the body's a lot more complex than just one number on a lab, right?

Right.

So to be so reductive and say just this number and take this medication, a lot of people fall through the cracks of that sort of pharmaceutical matching game. And then the third thing we do differently in functional medicine is we realize we're all different. God made us all different. It's bio-individuality. Kind of the thyroid's a good example there. you could have 100 people with a high TSH, but the actual cause of it's different from person to person. So, that's where to understand the art and science of you is really my passion professionally. And, we use food as medicine, we use natural medicines as medicine, herbs, botanicals, we use emerging therapeutics like peptides, we use mind-body dealing with the mental, emotional, spiritual facets of it. I love it. All of this stuff's being explored in the scientific literature. We're just So it's trying to aggregate what data we do have and then use common sense, even if there's not a randomized control trial. I know that's wild, but that's also science. So what moves the needle? What's the most effective option in that person's life that causes the least amount of side effects? And actually, for most chronic health problems, it doesn't have to be any side effects because God gave us everything we need anyways.

So it's just applying science in a common sense, holistic way.

And I always say that God gave us a cure for everything. There's something there, and he already knew what was coming well ahead of time. So there's something there, and that's why I am so drawn and have been to functional medicine, because I know that there's an answer, but we just have to find it and have to be willing to dig.

Yeah.

You know, one of the biggest problems that I've had over many years before I even knew what the hell functional medicine was, was all the blood panels that I interpret for bodybuilders related to testosterone deficiency is normally the start— steroid users and everything. but not necessarily. And this quick desire to jump on TRT— and, and I'll explain where I'm going with this. So for me, it was like, well, how about we look and see what's causing you to have a deficiency?

Yeah.

For example, if your SHBG is, is high, we get that down, we then free up bound testosterone, boom, you're fixed. So you do a lot of, of digging, right? So if somebody is like, I am lost, Or too quick to jump on prescription, you're coming in and saying, hey, look, we're gonna find the, the core problem here and maybe keep you off said medication and put you on this treatment.

Exactly. Yeah, absolutely. And medications is like, some people need to be on pharmaceutical drugs, so we're not anti-medication, but it's that litmus test. What's the most effective option that causes the least amount of side effects? So maybe that medication is a piece of the puzzle. Some people need to be on pharmaceuticals, but oftentimes it's a both/and, not either/or approach. approach and maybe in the short term, they need to be on medications to manage the disease, which managing symptoms, but then longer term, maybe that yes, you needed that medication for a season of your life. I'm thinking of like diabetic medications, right? It's like type— yeah, if somebody has raging blood sugar, yeah, get on that whatever medication they have you on, but then why— what's the long-term goal? And there's lots of other examples like autoimmunity. Maybe you need to be on the prednisone or the biologic in the short term, but then what's the long-term goal here?

Uh-huh.

So that's— well, let's see what the body's capable of. And for many people, the medications become obsolete or at least the very minimum reducing the need for as many medications to be as targeted as possible, but healthy people don't need pharmaceutical drugs.

No.

So, yeah, it's not a great business model to get people healthy for certain industries, but it is important for people. It is a good business model if you're out— if your goal is to help people. And believe me, if we worked all day long, 24 hours a day, There's so many people to help.

I know.

There's so many people to help. And my passion is to make functional medicine accessible, affordable for people, to democratize, to decentralize this stuff because it's so important. I see what it does in people's lives. I just realized I flung my glasses across the— my blue light blocking glasses.

Yeah, they're blocking the ground. So, throughout my life, I have, you know, experienced so many different things, have been blind to certain things because of interruptions or my mind being where it shouldn't be. And the funny story here— maybe not so funny— in prison, I learned that ibuprofen was the answer to everything. I don't care what the— what, what it was, whatever you went in there for. Now granted, it's minimal what you can get in there, but my point is No matter what you had, that's what you got prescribed. Now, when I got out and then I started to remember, okay, now every time I go to the doctor, it's the same story. Like, if I am not feeling well, this is why I started to tell my mom when she'd ask me, are you— you know, I'd call and say, I don't feel good, are you gonna go to the doctor? I'd say no. And, this was before I discovered anything wasn't involved in biohacking. I'd say no, because every time I go, all they're telling me is here's some amoxicillin or Augmentin or whatever Z-Pak. and get on there. And it's not— I'm still staying sick for 7 days, so why am I gonna go take all of this stuff and go into a germy doctor's office to see him for 5 seconds?

Yeah.

And they don't even know, aside from my first name, anything about me.

Yeah.

So if somebody comes to you, I have 2 questions. One, would they be replacing their primary caregiver? Would that be you? And then 2, how can you compare and contrast that That 5-minute session of not asking you anything about yourself to what they get with you?

Oh my gosh, yeah. So, well, I'm in telehealth, so I, I'm not ever replacing someone's local primary care physician because there's limitations to telehealth, right? Humans need physical exams sometimes, right? They need certain things that the art of medicine needs to be there for certain. So we coordinate with their local doctor or a local specialist when needed, but we're providing them functional medicine support and perspective and guidance on why, on their labs and, and how they feel and their health as a whole and how to get them better. So it's collaborative when we need. I, I've been on many a conference call with the local doctor when needed.

Yeah.

Because their local doctors, the people that are managing their medications oftentimes, right? So it's like I'm providing my perspective and saying, look, this is our goal here. This isn't always needed. I don't wanna overcomplicate this, but sometimes when you deal with more complex cases, I am very much cognizant of the fact when people have multiple doctors, that's multiple opinions.

Yeah.

And they don't have to be all conventional doctors. They could be some conventional, some other whatever alternative doctor, and then me. You can have too many cooks in the kitchen sometimes. So I wanna get us on the same page and be like, let's be collaborative, 'cause we all, hopefully our goal is to be for this person. And what does this person want for me to advocate for them and to be sort of their clinical quarterback in some way to integrate all the best tools within their toolbox. And then, yeah, we're spending a lot of time with them. Like, an initial consultation with us is about an hour and a half.

Yeah.

Could be longer. Going over labs, an hour and a half, maybe longer. So, it's— yeah, it's definitely— and this is why this is not an indictment on any one doctor in that conventional mainstream model. It's the system, right? The average doctor's visit, like you said, I think it's like 7 minutes is the average doctor's visit in the United States. How can you have deep meaningful meaningful conversations in 7 minutes. It's not going to happen. So this is not— and most of my colleagues in functional medicine are actually conventionally trained. Most of the physicians that have been trained through the Institute for Functional Medicine, which is what the— all the physicians at the Cleveland Clinic's Functional Medicine Center, most functional medicine doctors are trained through IFM. They're in the same— they're still in the same model. So, but they have a passion to learn about human health and they didn't learn about it in conventional medical school. but their hands are tied behind their back in that model because it's not set up for healthcare, it's set up for disease management. So, I want to be clear, this is not like us versus them or this sort of tribalism, this is just a different paradigm.

And many of my colleagues still work within the system and do what they can and kind of give little breadcrumbs of information in that 7 minutes.

Yeah.

And just say, read this, it's basically the advice, go read that, listen to this podcast, okay, see you, because they don't have the time. But I'm outside of that model So I can kind of spend as much time as I need to, my team and I. So it's a blessing. It's really a blessing. It's a sacred responsibility for me. When I think of over the years, all the amazing people that I get to be a part of, it's such a special, special thing.

I always compare it to like going to Great Clips and getting a haircut when they gotta get like 40 people in in a day and you're gonna get a Great Clips cut when you go in there. And then that's what it is. You can tell. them, hey, I want it done this way, and they're going to cut it as short as they can every time, right?

You know, and I've been to great clips before. Yeah. Have you ever been to sports clips before?

I have.

You get a little back massage.

Yeah.

So strange. So strange. It's like, I don't— should I be getting this massage right now and get a haircut?

I have a dedicated barber that I go to that like lines my face and I get a barbershop facial. It's one of the only times I get to relax, man.

Like, you know, but you know what, sometimes all we need is a good sports I love it. I'm bougie like that. I mean, I got you, man.

But you know, you go do that, you get what you get. Now if you— and I'm not throwing shade at doctors either, that's their setup, that's like what they know. And I think a lot of doctors go in with the right mindset, this is what we want to do, but then what are you going to do when you're taught a certain way?

Oh yeah, it's a paradigm. I mean, there, the— there's this study, it was— it's about 10 years older, so maybe a little bit less than that, that found that the average— these are pediatric residents, I think is what it was, pediatric residents— that the average doctor that's conventionally trained would fail a basic nutrition test.

Yeah.

I mean, but yet this is like the height of irony because most of the people that all PCPs, GPs are going to see, even rheumatologists, gastroenterologists, it's lifestyle-driven. I mean, and that I think I think they're trying to change that. I mean, the current HHS is trying to change that and there are lots of big schools, medical schools have signed on to up the amount of hours. It's still not enough, but they're trying to change it now because we can't— I mean, just it's basic common sense. You're spending your whole career talking to people, you need to— you don't have to be nutrition experts, you don't have to be an RD as an MD, but you at least need to have some basic knowledge of why that person is dealing with what they're dealing with and it's not a pharmaceutical deficiency. Mm-hmm.

You know, and that's what I— is always troubling to me. It's like when you go into the, the regular doctor, you don't get asked basic questions. What's your stress level like? How's your sleep? What's your activity level like? Unless there's something super, super severe, you don't really get into that. And it's impossible to go in there and have them remember you. It's kind of like a major university. I didn't do well at a major university with 400 and 500 kids in the classroom because 'Cause you're just kind of another number. And then I switched to a private school and it was more intricate, excelled, Dean's List student. But before it was like, man, I can read magazines back here. No one even knows, you know, it doesn't matter. And that attention to detail and knowing somebody is so important and vital. And that's why somebody like you, you can't take a million clients, I'm sure, but you know intricately about each individual, like their life story almost, right?

Oh yeah. And I am weirdly Rain Man sort of. I don't know what that's— I'm like my neurodivergence, I guess. But the— I remember the most random things about their health, but it's it's just it's indelible. It's like indelible. It can't be taken away. I can remember a patient 16 years ago. The most random facts about their life. But the great thing about telehealth and the way that we've— I've seen what works and what doesn't work as far as protocol, and then how to convey protocols to people, and how to scale this to help more people. So we have have these group models and that also lowers the cost too. 'Cause like you said, there's only so many hours in the day and we can put people in these amazing cohort groups 'cause that also brings community too.

Yes.

Which it's so isolating when you don't feel well and you're going through a chronic health problem or you're in just suboptimal health and you're gaslit in your hometown. It is a blessing to like to be able to, A, help more people in this sort of group telehealth model, but also To have community of like-minded people that will edify each other and encourage each other and to know you're not alone. That's medicine too.

Yeah.

Community is medicine.

That's what I was gonna say. You know, negative people always have a problem for a solution, right? You know.

So true.

And but if you get into a positive environment or around positive energy and people, it will provide a sense of comfort which will then in turn help you to heal.

Oh, 100%. I mean, there's— and then there's holes in the Blue Zone sort of societies, but one of the things that no matter what you're talking about Blue Zone or not, the research is clear that community is tremendously therapeutic, positive community. But as positive community can be a medicine, negative community can be a slow poison.

I got a lot of flaws, my friend, as we all do, but one thing that I take a lot of— and I don't like to use the word pride, but a lot of joy in— is that people tell me when I come into a room, I bring a positive energy. And I didn't always have that. And when I started to bring that, that positive energy helps heal other people.

Yeah.

Even something— they're having a bad day.

Totally. Yeah. I mean, it's— people like poop— like roll their eyes when— with the phrase hold space. But actually, for someone that that's sick, or at least not feeling well, or suboptimal health, to hold space for somebody, and not in a vapid social media way, but in a deep meaningful way of like human to human knowing you're not alone.

Yeah.

It is like the amount of times, like there's probably, it's rare when I would have an initial telehealth consult and that person not sob, not because I said anything, just because you are holding space for someone that's like so made to feel like they're crazy.

Mm-hmm.

That's going through things like chronic Lyme or mold or autoimmune problem or a fertility issue, whatever. So, it's such a sacred responsibility. And, you don't have to be a doctor or a healthcare practitioner to do that to another human. I think we all need to do it, especially in this age of AI. To be pro-human is to be to get out there and to reach out to people. And, 'cause there's a loneliness epidemic.

I wanna relate that and transition into how AI and just other aspects of this isolative state, how it affects total health. Now, I was talking about this the other day and I said, look, COVID was a reason, 'cause there's a difference between reason and excuse. COVID was a reason why we had to be isolated, relating it later now where there is no restriction, that's an excuse saying, oh well, COVID caused this. No, there was a reason at the time. Now you're using a crutch and an excuse to, to kind of be standoffish, not communicate. Here's what I found, and I want to know from a doctor's perspective that sees this daily, because I'm just an integrative practitioner type of, of background, I guess, so to speak, but you're a full-fledged doctor that has all that clientele. What I see is that more and more people have an inability to communicate, which is causing more mental health, more physical health, and more stress than I've ever seen in my life. And I'm seeing a lot of people that don't know how to talk with others, that then causes all of this hatred online and these people that type and do negative things.

Yeah.

And I swear to you that this has occurred over time of people not actually getting out and talking to people and communicating. Do you feel that we're going in a direction that where health is declining and part of that cause is a lack of the ability to be around people to communicate and more we're kind of hidden and isolated away?

Yeah, I do. And then, yeah, the post-COVID work-from-home phenomenon I think is playing a role into that. Yeah, I think, and our phones beyond COVID, but it, yeah, COVID was just an inflection point of all of that, right? It just exacerbated everything that was there before. And yeah, in some ways we returned to normal, but in some ways we've— with the age of AI and the technology accelerating at rapid rates, we were— have you ever saw the Pixar film WALL-E before?

Yeah.

It's like 19 years old now at this point, 18. It's prophetic in many ways. A kid's cartoon, a human's very little bone density, lots of adipose tissue, lying down, sedentary, stuffing their their faces full of food, staring at a screen all day. This is before iPhones. This— I mean, before all the techno— maybe not before iPhones, but the early days of iPhones, let's just say that, that this movie came out, that it was art imitating life in the future form.

Yeah.

And there's a lot of actually science fiction stuff that have tapped into this stuff too. Yeah, it is a massive problem. And then the screen comes off and then for a second and there's a glitch How do I even operate in real life? Because we're so— and researchers have a term for it, it's cognitive offloading.

Yeah.

We are allowing machines to think for us. So, we lack resilience, we lack grit, we lack diversity, we're afraid of diversity of thought, we're so intolerant because the algorithm sort of feeds our own confirmation bias. So, yeah, it's a significant problem. It's impacting the health of relationships. It's impacting people's physical health, and it's obviously impacting societal health, the ripple effect of all of that. It's too much of a good thing. Technology can be a blessing, but it's just ad nauseam, it's too much, it's too much of it.

We live in a world of everything's gotta be extreme, right? So, everybody's gotta just go all out. How old are you?

I'm 42.

Okay, so we're very similar in age. So, we've gone through a lot of the same timeframes then, 'cause I'm 44. So, you know, I always feel blessed and comforted that I was able to get around without a GPS system.

Yeah.

I was able to go and use payphones when I had to and do things that now would seem insane. But if you— what would happen if the energy grid shut down or there was no internet for months or no cell phones? 'Cause I remember, I mean, I'm sure you do the same time, we didn't have cell phones till I was 14, 15 years old. So, there was a pager or it was just a, you make a phone call?

Yeah. And look, I'm conscious of the fact that people that are younger than us are like, man, we are just 2 cantankerous old guys that are just like, oh, the change, we don't like the change. But the reality is this is different. Yes, part of it, I can hold both truths at the same time. I am a cantankerous old man at 42 years old, but it's also, if you look If you look at all age groups, the experts in this space will tell you this is nothing like ever before in human history.

No.

When has technology ever become conscious? Well, that's the conversations right now. When has technology— when ever before in human history will technology be smarter than humans? That's the conversations that are happening right now. So, yeah, this is quite a different beast, and the word beast is very appropriate here because it's, yeah, I'm convinced if we should just go back to the late '90s, early 2000s. At a certain point—

Please.

You— and this isn't just because of our youth. This is just like, okay, technology was good, it was solid, quality of life was decent. You can have too much of a good thing. You can be like completely indulgently overfed with something. And that's where I think we're at. There's nothing inherently wrong with AI. Look, your Google Maps is AI, Siri is AI, your Whoop and Oura Aura Ring, your Whoop Band, your CGM is AI. I don't— that's not inherently evil, but how it's being done in the sort of massive, uh, large language models, the accelerationism that's happening today, yeah, it's, uh, divorcing us from nature and ourselves in, in pretty malignant ways.

I, I force people to get on phone calls with me. You know, people now, they're trained to, is it okay if I call you? Is it okay? And I'm like, We need to talk. I don't want to buy my home or a car over a text message. Like, it, it's become to that. And, and like I always tell people, I have been through everything. I've talked about this in detail. I, I keep it as real as can be. When I, I went through this where I had to go back in time when I got myself into trouble, this was 2010. And I would— I had to go to prison to— and everything in there is completely 15, 20, 30 years behind. I had no cell phone. I had no, no way of listening to music other than a CD player.

Wow.

Right?

That sounds kind of fun. Yeah.

Well, I mean, aside from the, the surroundings and everything, it was kind of a good thing for me to then remember. And it trained me humility to go, man, here's what it's like to be reduced to nothing. But also, here's what you have to do in these circumstances, how do you do it? Like, I didn't have— there were times where I didn't have weights or anything. You should see. But I was, I was creating ways to train and work out and to do things like nobody has to do today. And my mind was working.

Yeah.

You would think you'd go in there and become ignorant or like this crazed animal. And I used that time, but it taught me something. And what it taught me was, man, you got to be prepared. And I think at the minimum, Because people take things for granted right now, they're not prepared for anything.

No.

I always tell people, you went to bed one day and you woke up and were told you can't leave your house, you can't go here, you can't do this, you can't do that. So don't think that can't happen again.

Oh yeah, I think COVID in some ways really broke a lot of people. It's like, I still see them today, it's like they're not the same. Like that sort of groupthink really messed with some people's brain and the sort sort of the, uh, I think taking advantage of people's weak minds. Because I think the technology makes all of our minds weaker. It does. There's a MIT— I think it was out of MIT— that found that people that use AI to write essays, which so many people do, there is a 55%— it was associated with a 55% decreased use of the brain.

Yeah.

That's a significant piece. Just 10 to 15 minute use of an AI chat significantly decreases perseverance and discernment and critical thinking skills. We don't critically think. We just, whatever answer we get, we just accept it as the gospel. And then, and we were talking about this previously off on a different conversation of just consider the sources. Like, what are they even pulling to tell you the answer? And look, it's changing so rapidly. So who even knows in a year or 2 or 5 years how this is gonna look?

Well, and you remember too, 'cause I mean, we probably went to college and stuff at the same time. You couldn't cite like Wikipedia then as a source. I mean, you had to learn that APA format and you had to cite. I'd be like, man, I don't even know what to do here half the time. But 'cause you'd have to sit there and really think for like a day or two, how am I gonna write this paper?

Yeah.

Before you even started.

I know it. Well, and then schools then gave iPads and laptops out. They stopped teaching kids cursive. All this stuff's coming back. And I think that's the silver lining in this sort of AI dystopian future. I think that the human spirit, there will be an analog Analog Renaissance of people wanting to see or be around other people, wanting to actually pick up pen, pick up paper, actually write out, read physical books, unplug, get in nature, and get with other humans. I think that will be like nature and we're a part of it. It's gonna survive one way or the other.

Oh yeah. Well, you kind of see too, a lot of younger generations now, when they see things that we did, they wanna, they make comebacks 'cause people wanna see what it was. And it's, you know, for me it was when video games started requiring a college course to play them, that's when I was like, oh, we got a problem here.

Yeah.

I mean, seriously, I like 2 buttons and a joystick, you know what I mean?

Yeah, right. And this is like, you know, we talk about COVID COVID woke a lot of people up.

Yeah.

Like they doth protest too much. People that weren't like questioning orthodoxy, how many people do we know just started questioning? sort of the way that AI is being used today and this sort of anti-human accelerationist movement is waking people up too. And I think that's one of the reasons why you see this rise of young people, Gen Z and millennials, flocking to church to, A, be with other humans, but also they're craving something real. I think Gen Z are the highest church attendees now. I mean, that's— that should tell you something. The generation that is the most attached to their phone is going to church more than anybody else. Uh, yeah, that's all you need to say.

When, when God is able to get into somebody's heart and penetrate what, what's surrounding us, we're wired to want him. We're wired to love, and we're wired to want that word. Once you taste You know how people will say if you do a drug or whatever, you're addicted? No. Once you taste God's word and feel it in your life, it's impossible to not get addicted.

Especially when everything else is so fake.

Yeah.

It's just like a hologram. It's a cheap, cheap counterfeit.

Yeah, 100%. And, and we were talking before, and I, and I've talked to you about this now a few times, that becoming God first was when my life completely went upside down. When I came to the realization, and I'm relating this to health too, because this all ties into health. When you are self-servient and it's all about, oh, it's all about Dylan or all about Will, you become miserable and then you become unhealthy.

Mm-hmm.

Because that misery turns to stress, that stress turns into the desire to figure out who you are and why do I not feel good? And, before you know it, it cascades down into this lack of health. Depths of hell, I guess, essentially. Do you fall under the same premise I do that aside from being God first, it's the characteristics that he provided that make us the healthiest? The gratitude, the appreciation, the love correspond to health?

Oh, yeah. Science is just catching up with antiquity. Science is catching up with God and all the things that's talked about in scripture nature. Now, there's randomized control trials showing the medicine of gratitude, the medicine of compassion, the medicine of all of these things, of taking in the ineffable with nature, of the Shinrin-yoku research out of Japan and South Korea, of getting out in nature and God's creation. I call it God art. Yeah, it's all this stuff, like the spiritual stuff, or somebody said that the religious stuff actually has studies showing that people live longer. I mean, there's a study out of, I think it was Harvard, the people that had a regular faith practice that were part of a faith community, it was associated with a 33% decreased risk of all-cause mortality in a 16-year period. People that have a faith walk, a relationship with God, part of a positive community have lower lower high-sensitivity C-reactive protein inflammation markers. I mean, Dr. Lisa Miller, a friend of mine, she's a researcher at Columbia. She scans brains of people that have faith in their life. They have increased resilience and grit, which is what we need in our mad world today.

We need resilience. And you see that on social media when there's a lack of resilience and a lack of grit, this sort of, uh, offense— there are people who are addicted to being offended and being triggered.

Yeah.

offense culture, outrage culture. And we just lack such tolerance for other people that are different. And I know religious people can lack tolerance too.

Oh yeah.

But so you have to cultivate this for yourself. No one's gonna do it for you. That's the whole point of all of this. But it is way better. I would say the worst, maybe this is a shocking statement, but I think church as a whole, it's imperfect. You have to be okay with that. It's not all perfection. It's filled with imperfect people. But the worst part of it's still better than the best of the world.

Yeah, I agree. And I always say this and I always do this 'cause I start talking and it would come across like, oh, well, he never screws up. Or I curse a lot, I do a lot of things. But if you look in the Bible, God always picks somebody for a certain reason, but they generally had some things they were doing pretty rough.

Yeah, I mean, King David had his lover's husband been killed. And the Bible says he was a man after God's own heart. So, uh, yeah, some ruthless people. Saul killed Christians for a living and became the writer of most of the New Testament.

And I always say, don't judge anybody. I had somebody write me 2 days ago and tell me that everything I said didn't mean anything and that I talked because I had earrings on. And I said, well, my professor never indicated to me, and when I studied at Harvard, that my earrings were going to lower my IQ level. But, you know, that's the type of negative things that people live in. And my concern is, there was nothing anybody can say that can hurt my feelings at this point. I just don't give a shit, right? I got to that point where I'm stone cold.

Yeah.

But my concern is for other people that don't know, that don't have that mentality I do. And then 2, when you have free time during the day or night, and that's what you're doing in your free time is like throwing stones at people or being negative or whatever.

Like on social media, you mean?

Yeah, like what are you doing with your life and where is it going and how is that affecting your kids and the people around you and your health and your mind?

Oh yeah, that's where my mind actually goes to when I do see like a negative, 'cause I've been through a few of those over the years. But the, and then there's like the low-grade trolls, but then there's like, Like the troll empire war occasionally that will happen. So it comes up and down, but you just think, okay, man, I use it as a meditation of compassion for them. It's like, you must be very sad and isolated and unhealthy. Healthy people don't treat other people like that.

No.

Actually, very sad, miserable people treat people like that. So it's not always easy and it's also an exercise is just for me to unplug and be like, this is really not real life. But hurt people hurt people, as they say, but thank the Lord healed people heal people.

Yeah.

Or healing people heal people. We're all in the process of healing. So it is quite the thing, but there's this keyboard warrior bravado, right? It's just like they can hide behind this phone, the anonymity of it all, things they would never say to your face. Typically cowards would never do that. I mean, they were just, they can be brave behind that sort of digital courage that they have.

It's funny 'cause like if some of the people that have taken shots at me, 'cause I used to get upset when I first started YouTube, I had millions of subscribers in like a year. I didn't know what was even happening.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

It really, it still hurts my feelings to be honest with you. It's, I have to, it's a process. So it's a, I'm sensitive and I want people to like me. And I have good intentions, so I'm like, well, they're misreading what I'm saying. Or I see that it works because I see labs improve. So why are you against that? So I am not perfect at it, but when I say this is a practice, it's a practice of compassion and saying, yeah, my feelings are hurt that this person's misinterpreting or committed to misunderstanding me, but I'm going to show them compassion anyways.

I try to be the bigger person. I will say that what I do sometimes is use it as a— me and my wife get to like look at this person and we laugh because she gets offended and gets upset when people take shots at me.

Yeah, my wife gets very defensive of it.

Yeah, and I never wanted my, my grandkids or kids to see that type of stuff, but I always say, look at this, and we laugh. And it's like, I, I wish these people knew, like, you're the butt of my jokes for spending— thanks for spending your time on me, like, I appreciate it. But I'm out here trying to make a difference, so I don't let it bother me. But I do understand what you're because of the work you're doing, my even advice to you would be is, hey, you know, that just means I'm making an impact one way or another.

That is true. I mean, yeah, if you're not pissing somebody off, you're doing something wrong.

Yeah, and that's just it. And my whole goal is to get people to hear me whether they like me or not, because somehow, some way, if they're listening, they're hearing something you're saying. And you know what? I don't know about you, but I've had things that I've either thought were crazy or pissed me off, and then I went back around And was like, huh, maybe I missed that, or maybe I should relook at that again.

Totally. Oh, I, yeah, you're absolutely right. Because sometimes it's like, well, I had good intentions, but I didn't mean to say it like that. Or I get what they're saying and I try to be self-reflective and be like, yeah, I could do better, right? And use it as a learning experience. That does happen sometimes too. More oftentimes than not, it's not, right? It's like, you're literally twisting everything I'm saying out of context. The context and nuance is oftentimes lost with social media, especially with, you know, and I'm sure you've seen this phenomenon too, even with this episode right now, the concept of Reels or TikToks or like short-form videos. We're talking for an hour, an hour and a half, whatever. They, people mistake like a 13-second clip.

Yes.

For an entire conversation. It's like, do you not realize that that is like you, that those videos are never gonna be full context, but they expect I don't expect you to get all the answers. The whole point of the video is to like go listen to the full conversation for the context. But we're so like pacified to be spoon-fed information that we just, again, can't hear anything as a culture without being offended. It's happened to me a few times in my career and it's wild to me because people just assume the worst in other people.

There's 2 things that I will say about that. One is, and you and I don't do this, but there's a lot of people that do and that's because their social team is telling them to do this where they send them this way. You gotta hook them with this or say this or do that. And I don't like that. I don't do it. I refuse to do it. I've had a lot of people I worked with, they get mad at me and I'm like, dude, if they wanna listen to me, they'll hear me. I don't need to do all of that.

We don't intentionally try to do it, but it does happen sometimes because it's 13 seconds, 30 seconds. Uh, yeah, it's wild to me.

But some people just, they hear what they wanna hear. And, and that's one of the reasons why I make people talk to me or I leave voice notes like you and I started doing. Because when you write something in text or email, you can't hear tone.

Tone, yeah.

I've looked at stuff before and my first reaction was like, man, are you talking shit? Like, are you being disrespectful to me? And then I go— and then I, I stopped responding right away to stuff before I reread it because there's been times where I've had to really go apologize. Yeah, because I totally misread it. And if you and I are in a hurry or our mind's somewhere else and we skip words. Sometimes I skip words. There you go. And it's kind of like, I just see something that's gonna make me mad.

Yeah, same thing, yeah. That's horrible. That's cognitive offloading of us too, right? We just are like, just give us the Cliff Notes version of this short text, please. Our attention spans are shrinking.

But that's the importance of communication and talking.

Yeah, you're right.

So let's talk a little bit about the book that you wrote with Josh. Um, I told you, I, I, I wrote you last night, we talked a little bit today. I got to read the first few chapters of it because I just got it, and it is so well done because of the perspective and what you're covering and the depth of what you're doing.

Thanks.

I, I had— I kind of shared this with you earlier, but I didn't get into it totally. So my whole life, my, my mom was an English teacher and my dad was like a strict math guy. So, those were my subjects. I hated science, and I mean, to the point of I had to go take biology at a summer class in college and still got a C-minus.

Okay.

Because I just didn't want— I didn't want to be there. I didn't listen. And now, my whole life is centered around science. Science.

Yeah.

Most importantly, I went to Harvard and studied cellular health at night, and I actually took a certification course to be a cellular health expert.

Amazing.

But, this is all stuff I learned in the past 2 years. So, you're a full-fledged expert. So, when I start reading your work. I'm like, man, the depths. I have a few, like, more detailed questions for you.

Yeah.

So, you know, the— there's buzzwords in health just like anything else. So right now, more than ever, it's mitochondria, gut. Like, these are buzzwords. But when we're looking at a cell, the most important parts of a cell— and, and you correct me here— I look at it from what I understand, and would we not want to put some focus on the cellular membrane, which is protecting the cell, because there's no mitochondria without the protection, right? So, is that something that should be talked about more?

Yeah, I think you're right. The mitochondria are having their little, like, time in the sun right now. Like, but, you know, the sweet little descendants of bacteria, and we should give them some love. But you're right. I mean, all of it's important. God made all of it. I mean, yeah, life begins on the membrane, and the fluidity, the perfect level of fluidity allowing the good stuff, nutrients, to come in, the receptor sites to be sharp to grab the hormones, to allow the byproducts of energy and any toxins to be pushed out of the membrane, it all depends on the integrity of the cellular membrane, this beautiful phospholipid bilipid membrane. Uh, it's profoundly important and obviously a significant part of the book, and it's, it's at the heart of a lot of the longevity research, right? I mean, the information model of understanding aging, or the information theory of aging, that meaning that the cell and its information largely has to do with a membrane problem.

Mm-hmm.

Because that's that breach, that sort of gatekeeper. Uh, if the DNA has these sort of microdamages and there's some epigenetic confusion going on there, those sirtuins Yeah. And these guardian angels of the genome are trying to clean things up, but this whole breach is because the membrane is that proverbial gate that's been breached, and those mitochondria are becoming leaky or releasing these reactive oxygen species. And again, the pathways are trying to keep up. The body is trying to preserve, but they kind of— the sirtuins have lost their way. And all of it has to do with the membrane. The membrane really is the— one of the seminal— let's just say the seminal event of a loss of integrity of the cell membrane when it will cause a cascade of problems throughout the body. And as one— if one cell becomes dysregulated or has lost its sense of identity or what researchers call ex-differentiation, it's the brain cell forgot it's a brain cell or the liver cell forgot it's a liver cell, and that's where chronic disease begins. One cell becomes that and then infects— infects, quote-unquote— it affects all the cells around it, and that's where you have organ dysfunction and you have the label of the disease.

But every disease or every suboptimal issue that somebody has with a specific organ, it begins with the cellular dysfunction, which begins with, to your point, some sort of cell membrane issue.

So, if we have a mitochondria deficiency or problem, Is that cellular membrane health related?

Yeah, well, they're inextricably related. You have to have a breached— I think you could argue this and you could find someone to disagree with you, but I would say that—

Sure.

That's not hard to find, but I would say that it's a pretty accurate statement that you'd be hard-pressed to find someone with mitochondrial dysfunction that didn't have a membrane problem first.

What— what is the most important aspect of keeping our cellular membrane healthy? What does it require to be optimal?

Well, researchers— it's— it's a lot of— when I say it's a lot of things, I don't want to complicate it. It's a lot of potential tools within the toolbox, but researchers estimate that majority of our genetics haven't changed in thousands of years, but yet our world has changed dramatically in finite period of time. So, I would say it's a few things that we need to decrease that mismatch, that chasm between genetics and epigenetics. One is going to be the foods we eat.

Mm-hmm.

That's a significant piece. What foods love your body back and which ones don't? And because of this chasm, this mismatch between genetics and epigenetics, even healthy foods may not be the best food for you. There's a lot of bio-individuality under the umbrella of nutrient-dense whole foods. Foods, what foods are the most optimal for you at this time in your life. So looking at foods, not just what you eat but when you eat. Researchers call a lot of this cellular dysfunction, and what I mean by that, again, the ripple effect that is— what is a chronic health problem? All chronic health problems, autoimmune problems, cancer, heart disease, or just you having brain fog and fatigue, is a cellular health problem, just to make that clear for people. It's not just what you eat, but when you eat. They call it— the researchers refer to a lot of these chronic health problems as chronobiological, meaning that there's some— we're eating too much too often. We're not giving the body ever a break, and the cell cannot have time— does not have time to clean itself up. The third thing would be light. Like, we talked about this previously, but the sort of dirty light that we're constantly surrounded by, blue light technology, back to that, it's impacting our circadian rhythm.

Yeah.

rhythm, and the light from the sun and the nighttime helps to set our own central clock of the SCN part of the brain, and that's connection to our— every cell of our body has its own cellular clock, peripheral clock if you will. So, this constantly being surrounded by our screens and light, artificial light from technology and being inside, it's impacting our cellular confusion too. The cells become confused, and that's accelerating that cell clock. Uh, next piece I would say would be man-made environmental toxins— herbicides, pesticides, microplastics, forever chemicals, uh, heavy metals. Um, and then biotoxins I would say would be another one. That's going to be mold, bacteria, viruses, and parasites. Those things are never— pathogenic variations or toxic variations of these are never healthy. But I, I am convinced that going back to the man-made, I think the EMF piece—

Yeah.

Exacerbates a lot of this stuff, specifically with mold, where yes, toxic mold is never not toxic. The Bible talked about it thousands of years ago in Leviticus, but it's exacerbated because of EMFs in our homes and the constant inundation with electricity and technology. And then the last piece I would say is stress, trauma, and spiritual disconnection. It's the mental, emotional, spiritual thing. It's all of that stuff.

Domination.

It's a confluence of factors that for some people, maybe it's more stress and trauma that's causing their cell to become dysregulated, their membrane to be more rigid, their cell to become more inflamed. For other people, it may be more microplastics. For a lot of people, it's gonna be the entourage effect, a perfect storm of variables, and that's where in my line of work, health history and labs, Really illuminate why they have these problems, but it's gonna be prob— it's gonna be for most people one of those things that I talked about and obviously it could be any number of things underneath those categories.

Does cholesterol play a role in cellular membrane health at all?

It certainly does and that would— I would put that in the sort of nutrition level of it. Absolutely. I mean, we need— we need healthy fats and cholesterol. Go figure, and one of the top pharmaceutical drugs is shutting that off. Go figure. Which is why that same class of medication also increases cellular dysfunction and increases type 2 diabetes and increases neurocognitive decline. Because when you shut down pathways that God made, there's unintended consequences sometimes. Go figure. When mankind pretends to be God, there's unintended consequences. I'm not to say there's not a place for doing that sometimes. But there's unintended— there's unintended and sometimes intended consequences. Yeah, absolutely, and that's why everybody that's on a cholesterol-lowering medication, statin drugs specifically, should be on CoQ10, should be taking phospholipids like a phosphatidylcholine or phosphatidylserine, some sort of phospholipid membrane because you need to replace what the body's shutting down because of a pharmaceutical drug.

Dr. Cole, are you indicating that crushing LDL is not optimal for cellular health.

I know, shocking. I would say that's one of the worst things you could do.

Yeah.

Is shoving your cholesterol down artificially low. Every cell of your body, that phospholipid membrane that we're talking about where all these hormonal receptor sites are, where the cell communicates to other cells, it needs healthy amounts of cholesterol and the liver is what's making predominantly that. Food plays a role in that and genetics plays a significant role that some people are going to have more, some people are going to have less, to have less, but our body needs it and it's like blaming the firemen for the fire. If somebody has abnormally high cholesterol, why is the body producing more? It's— it's because oftentimes the body's needing to repair the cell membrane and all the other things that the body uses cholesterol for because of the damage of modernity.

Uh-huh.

So— and that's why you— when you see the studies implicating these microplastics and forever chemicals in the— lodged in the arteries, and the body's creating an inflammatory response to try to get the microplastics and chemicals out, and that's what's causing heart attack and stroke in a lot of this subset of people. Yes, the body's gonna create more cholesterol to try to repair stuff. So it's— we are blaming the wrong thing.

Would you say that it's fair, and not in all, but some conditions that people are born with may in fact be there for a reason Yeah, absolutely.

We have to— what's the body telling us?

Yeah.

These labs, these symptoms are oftentimes proverbial check engine lights. Why is the check engine light on in the first place? There's a lot of beautiful compensatory mechanisms. There's beautiful adaptations. The body's trying to actually do something, but because we are out of alignment with nature, and that maybe sounds a little woo-woo, but we're out of alignment with something more intimately, we co-evolved with, what we're created for, with, that's the problem. And then we're saying, okay, now we're smarter than nature, so we're gonna shut down this pathway. And that's— and then that caused a problem, so you need to be on a medication for the side effects of the first medication.

No, I, I, I never valued nature or the surroundings until I realized and I read more in scripture. And then I moved to Arizona, got on the pathways, started appreciating— even when I lived in Maui, like the sunsets and when I realized that the appreciation of God's creation, not man's earth, like God's beauty. Even when I go through to California and there's a lot of like homelessness and garbage there, there's still the mountains and these like beautiful topography everywhere that I'm looking at. And I'm like, wow.

Yeah.

There's still a lot of good here that was created. But when you have that, again, gratitude, man, it just opens up different parts of your brain. Like, it really, really does. And so, I think that that's important. There's nothing woo-woo about what you said. I know people say that, but they don't get it. That's not hippie-ish. It's reality.

It is reality. Yeah, no, it's absolutely right. It is. But, we're so divorced from it, I think many people are divorced from that reality.

So, I got a couple other questions that I really wanted to touch on with you. One, I want to relate some issues that I had and, and see, since you're kind of an expert on this. So I have never been able to wear a wearable for an extended period of time. I wore an Apple Watch for a while, and granted, I had to wear it really tight because of the tattoos. Woke up one morning, could barely move my wrist. My pinky was swollen to where my wife panicked and we went to the emergency room.

Mm-hmm.

Had to stop wearing it twice. worn rings, like an Oura Ring and then a RingConn, started to have really weird heart rhythms, started to have really bad headaches. The Apollo Neuro is the only one I've been able to wear, but even that I can't wear consistently. My body has not responded, and I've seen that with other people. Is that— and also, you know, sleeping with your cell phone by your bed at night and things like that that people think is crazy. Are these EMF-related? Are they realities? And what are some telltale signs that we're having issues?

Yeah, that's interesting. We see a lot of more people that I would say have more sensitive responses to that, and yeah, it's not the majority. Certainly, to be clear, it's not the majority of people that I would say see that, but it can. And these are I think this is really a sign that even things that are you could say oh yeah this is very low-grade EMF right or any low-grade exposure of something, but I think it shows you in many different ways this cumulative. Bioaccumulation, if you will, of EMFs. It's a little bit there, a little bit there, a little bit there, and it's like— and then you never have reprieve from it. You always have it on, and it's constantly sending the signal to parts of your body. Yeah, if you're saying, yeah, you wear a non-EMF ring, like the non-biohacking ring, and you're fine with it, the only variable is that the ring part isn't like— it's not like cutting off circulation. It's an actual frequency issue. Yeah, we are inundated by man-made polarized EMFs and not enough God EMFs from nature, which nature creates these non-polarized EMFs. So yeah, I— yeah, there's going to be limitations to that, right?

It's, it's like you said, maybe some you can and just don't wear it all the time. I like keeping things intuitive, so I like the data in the short term.

Yeah.

But But I think for the average human being, they actually don't need to wear these things all the time.

No.

I like data, but you need to get to the point where you're building enough resilience and enough intuition, enough resilience physiologically and enough intuition on a mental, emotional, spiritual level that you just know.

Yeah.

My HRV is probably here. You know, my sleep score is basically here. That's agency on your health.

Yeah.

So, it's a learning tool because so many people are divorced from their bodies in the short term. But yeah, it's— you don't need that, man. You're beyond that.

No, I think it's good to check it and then start to live your habits and then check again, say, okay, I made some changes, and see it. You know what else I, I forgot to bring up? Years I used to wear one earbud here, uh, an AirPod, and I started to get this weird swelling in my face. And I went to every doctor. I thought I had cancer. I thought I, I thought there were so many things wrong with me. I was looking into My tattoo artist told me about the earbuds, stopped wearing it, all the swelling finally went away.

I don't know of any studies on this, but I'd be curious to know. It probably is mild, if anything. Do you think the tattoos have a conductivity difference?

I'm not sure. That could be too.

Maybe, I don't know. I don't know about that. Mechanistically, it's not making sense to me right now, but I'm just wondering, 'cause you have the amazing sleeves. Thank you. Yeah, so I'm just wondering that. I don't know.

Yeah, there's potential there too. So, and that's a good point that I never thought of while I was getting them done, um, but that there could be. So yeah, I think that that's becoming a problem more so because more people are reliant and there's more wireless products than there's ever been since we've been alive. I mean, since the history of man, as far as we know.

Yeah, if you were like off the grid and you just had one little band or whatever, It's no big deal, but it's the— it's something's got to give and our body is crying out for reprieve.

I wanna ask you, 'cause you brought this up and I found this to be one of the most important, like, mechanisms that we look at of data pieces. And so, I always go to VO2 max as being one that's really important that we look at, but now I'm really starting to see that HRV is really being focused on And so when I, when I didn't know what HRV was, I remember my score was like low and I was like, sweet, you know, like this is great. And then I looked it up and was like, oh shit, this is not good.

It's one of these cases where high is better, right? Right.

So could you explain what it is and why it's better to have a higher score?

Yeah, it's— in short, it's the body's ability to regulate itself and that for the heart rate to be low, then high, and to come back down. It's it's a it's a way that I use to measure parasympathetic tone.

Okay.

Because a lot of people have poor vagal tone, and they have this sort of larger, like dysregulated, hypervigilant response. And you can't measure parasympathetic tone that I know of clinically, like as far as easily accessible, other than HRV. HRV is one of the best evidence-based ways to know. Let's improve vagal tone. And what does that look like? So when I'm integrating things like breathwork and meditation, when I'm integrating things like transcutaneous vagal nerve stimulation and toning the vagus nerve, you will see, uh, HRV improve. And I just mentioned our CEO— I mentioned to you off camera, our CEO, I said get to get this vagal nerve stimulator, and his HRV improved quite nicely. And I see that time and time again with telehealth patients, but you have to be consistent with it.

Yeah.

These like acts of the parasympathetic. And for one person, it can be just like healthy boundaries in your life and like maybe getting away from technology and lowering your stress levels, that can improve HRV. For one— for the next person, it may be improving electrolytes, right?

Yeah.

Improving magnesium, potassium, sodium, which will help— can help for some people. Improving your sleep hygiene can improve HRV. And for some people, you know, there's other tools. But yeah, it is an improvement of— it's a biomarker to gauge nervous system regulation and it's a long— it's really indirectly a longevity marker.

You know, and you brought up that parasympathetic and sympathetic nervous system and, you know, being able to switch, right? And be able to come out of that sympathetic state. When I first got the Oura Ring, my HRV was like in the 40s, and I went through the nervous system reset, and now it's been, what, 3 months? And I, I retested everything, and now my HRV was always high 80s, low 90s.

Amazing.

So, more than double Just— I think— I mean, obviously I've been sleeping a little bit better too, but I think a lot of that was that getting out of that fight-or-flight mode. Because I think once you get stuck there, I mean, you're doomed. Like, until you fix it, you're just stuck.

Yeah. And, and the tool— the right tool to improve your vagal tone, the right tool to lower that hypervigilant fight-or-flight response is the tool that works for you.

Yeah.

That you can stay consistent with. Because— and there's so many different paths for different people, right? For some person, it could be cold plunging, right? Too much cold plunging could throw it off and make it worse, but like the dose— the dose makes the medicine just like the dose makes the poison.

Yeah.

All of these— a lot of these adversity mimetics, right, the things that researchers show to upregulate autophagy actually can also help with HRV. Exercise, building lean muscle, that's a hormetic effect that also can improve HRV, but the dose matters.

Yes.

Right, and then overstressing the body is not good, but understressing the body isn't going to be either. So, finding that sweet spot for you to kind of get some grit will improve that heart rate variability.

Okay. Well, I want to switch gears now because you brought up cold plunge. I want to talk— this is one I often disagree with people on.

Okay.

And, I'm fine with that. I don't care.

Yeah.

I want to talk about modalities, I think, is what I'd like to get into. And, I'll start with the cold plunge as being one that I would group into modalities or different types of treatment therapy. What are your thoughts there? Do you find that it is beneficial or do you find that it is kind of overhyped or what do you feel about that?

Well, pretty much anything on social media is overhyped except the truth.

Right.

So, like, I think that it is overhyped, but it's an amazing tool.

Okay.

Right? So, I should say this, it depends on who you're listening to. So, I've seen it overhyped. I'm slung my blue light blockers again. So, um, it's a, it's a hormetic effect, right? It's a hormesis. The concept of hormesis comes from this— I've heard this is— you fact-check me, all of you on social media— is that the mythology around hormesis was this king, ancient king, thought that someone was going to poison him. And if you know anything about royal history, there was a lot of poisoning of kings and queens. So this king would take a low dose of a poison, then if he ever got poisoned— and it ended up being his mother that tried poison him, which is also very historically accurate, that someone wanted him out, right? And he didn't die because he was like microdosing this poison. So, that's the dose makes the poison is sort of the mythology of hormesis. I like that. So, cold plunging is a hormesis, hermetic effect. Sauna is a hermetic effect. The ketogenic diet is a hermetic effect. Fasting-mimicking diets, fasting and fasting-mimicking diets like the ketogenic diet are hormetic in nature. High-intensity interval training, REHIT, reduced exertional high-intensity interval training, all hormetic.

They are adversity mimetics. How can we utilize things that are stimulating adversity that would be in nature to make your cells more resilient? That's the theory of how these things work from a mechanism of action standpoint. So, cold plunging, the dose matters.

Yeah.

So, what's the temperature? What's the time? And who are we talking about? So, that bio-individuality really matters. matters there.

I like that.

So, cold's so relative, right? Look, for someone that's like never been— you could say something in the 70s Fahrenheit, which no aficionado, like biohacker, alpha-type personality, they would never say that's cold plunging. But 60s to 70s Fahrenheit, freaking cold. It's not a swimming pool. It's, it's a miserable— it's not a good time. But that could be enough of a medicine to lower someone's core temperature and improve their REM and deep sleep and HRV.

Yep, yep.

So this sort of aggro alpha cold, the more frigid— like, if you're not getting frostbite, it's not working. It's— that's not the way, right? So I think these are modifiable factors. So like microdosing and pulsing these things, and for some people, like, build it starting off low and slow and building up over time can be great. I had one patient that came to to mind. She was a woman. So then you hear all this research, uh, and conversations online of like, oh, most of the research on this stuff's done on men, which is true.

Yeah.

Uh, women have higher levels of kisspeptin, which makes their body more sensitive to these hormetic effects. That is true. Um, but then the reductive absolutist approach is saying, well, then all these things, women can't do it at all. Well, there's so much There's like— have you met women? There's so many different types of women. Like, who is she? What is she going through?

Right.

Who is she? What's her labs look like? What's her health profile look like? What's her stress levels? All these variables. What her hormones look like? And then what's the time and temperature that she's in? So she had— this lady specifically had autoimmune issues. She had different inflammatory problems and the world would actually know who this person is. I can't say it because of patient confidentiality. It's like a really famous person. She saw remarkable results from cold plunging. So, when we start off very conservatively, high temperature, low time. So, she was, I think, in the low 60s, nothing aggressive. So, it could be a cold shower, probably. I don't know how cold people's showers are, but low 60s, very low time. And then, over time, we would inch up by seconds, time and temperature changing that. And then, it was a Friday, right? And she felt really good. She was like titrating the time, and every time she increased the time, lowered the temperature, she felt better. And, or you could just switch one of those. You could just increase the time and keep the temperature the same. So, there's an art and science to this.

Over the weekend, she was like, well, if a little is good, then more is better. She got a snorkel. What do you call those? Like a snorkel mask? Scuba mask. Yeah, scuba mask. Yeah, and she stuck her head underneath the cold plunge And made it a huge flare-up from that, 'cause you don't wanna do that. So, that just shows you that, yeah, you could say, well, it's all bad, but to me, there's so much beautiful nuance to these topics that it depends on who we're talking about.

This is why I love you, because you do things from this approach where it's so personalized and it recognizes that it's a one-size-fits-none approach. I always say I'd rather eat shit than get in a cold plunge, I just— I, I've jumped— I, I not even jumped in there, been put in there. And it's for— I've always been overly cold. I grew up in a cold climate, and for some reason my body's always kind of been more—

Well, you're a lean guy too. You have a high metabolism. I could see you not needing it, or not— if, if you do, then microdose that stuff and have a higher temperature. Yeah, a relatively high temperature. A cold shower, more akin to a cold shower.

that heats his pool in the summer in Phoenix.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay, there you go.

Like, seriously.

Yeah.

But I do see some merit there. I don't like it, like, when people go in there after they weight train.

Certainly not.

You know, and I've seen people arguing for recovery and I'm like, listen, you're just ruining the whole workout.

Yeah, yeah, other than if someone has an injury, I guess would be the only kind of reason for that. But yeah, no, it's like, yeah, you're supposed to be rebuilding muscle after that time and these micro tears.

Yeah, that's one of the things I was complaining to you about earlier was this extremism that— and, and I can't stand the way that it goes with foods especially. And we got into a lot of diet discussion earlier, but I want to actually break down some foods as opposed to full-blown like keto and carnivore diets. I want to look at some foods that—

Mm-hmm.

I feel like get really trashed, but then the ones by one side and one side will just go to the grave and want to kill you if you say something bad about their, their food that they're eating. I want to talk to you about a couple, and I want your thoughts because I've I've actually— I've been extreme, like I ate a bunch of these and then I got turned off because people told me how horrible they were and killing me, and then I kinda went back to moderately having them. So I, I had oatmeal every day for like 20-some-odd years, and then they— people got into my head and telling me, oh, it's the worst thing you could ever eat, and I didn't eat it for years.

Mm-hmm.

And now I've kinda— a couple days a week after really intense cardio, like I'm talking 90-minute sessions for a good carb after, and I pair it with like an over-easy egg and some avocado. Like, I get the fats and proteins in with it, and I've felt pretty damn good, like, after re-implementing that.

Yeah.

So, let's start with oatmeal, and let's say that we're having the cleanest one we can without glyphosate, no sugars, no— just, I'm talking pure, either regular rolled oats or steel-cut oats. What is your feeling on those?

Yeah, I think they're slowly poisoning themselves. Yeah, oh my gosh, man, right? It's like you— I've heard it said and I think it's true, it's probably easier to change someone's religion than the foods they eat. People become so ideologically, uh, like tribal about it, right? They make it their personality. Uh, the— so back to that sort of truth is somewhere in the middle, or— and the truth is what's bio-individual to that person at this point in their health journey. Does that food love them back or not? I could pick every food under the umbrella, whole nutrient-dense foods. The best food medicine for one person can cause a problem in the next person.

Yup.

So you name me any food out there pretty much. Fruit, amazing, can spike some people's blood sugar or it could be a high FODMAP fruit if they have SIBO. Bone broth, I love bone broth. It's high— it can be high histamines. It can flare somebody up. So if people have a gluten sensitivity, gluten can cross-react. It can be cross-contaminated with oatmeal, but also the protein in the oatmeal is similar enough in structure to gluten that it— it can— it's called cross-reactivity. It can— the immune system for someone who has celiac or someone that has MS, has gluten sensitivity, it's as if that person had never gone gluten-free.

Yeah.

If they have oatmeal, even if it's certified gluten-free oatmeal.

Right.

So, and then on top of that, the glyphosate piece. So, and if it's not glyphosate-free, the whole point being, if I— you cannot hang your hat on like this is a good— because I could punch holes in pretty much every nutrient foods because I've seen it.

Yeah.

I've seen it work great because you're right, it could be nourishing, it could be grounding oatmeal, it could be a great source of complex, like a good, uh, whole, whole grain, uh, carbohydrate. And then the next person, it causes an issue. And what part of that whole food food causes an issue will be different from person to person. So I think if you get a— that is an organic, non-GMO, obviously glyphosate residue-free oatmeal, the steel cut, for someone that doesn't have a problem for all the different things, it can be a great tool.

Yeah.

And I think like rice is another example.

Yes.

That I do fine with rice. I don't do great with oatmeal, but that's my bio-individuality, It's like what's the carb source and that could be grains, it could be legumes, it could be fruits, it could be a starchy vegetable. What works for you? You're going to have to find something that works for you. Now, obviously there's low-carb and no-carb approaches also have their time and place for all of these. There's just so much nuance and context to this, but I think oatmeal certainly is not the devil's food.

Yeah.

It's just a matter of does it love your body back or not?

And, and, you know, spinach was another one I was going to bring up because of the oxalates.

Oh yeah, you're gonna offend some people with spinach.

Well, good Lord. I mean, I get it if you're like over-consuming it or if you're eating it raw and things like—

Like full-on Popeye, like cans of it. Yeah, yeah. No, no, I, I— same thing. It's the same thing. This sort of fear-mongering around plant anti-nutrients. Oh, I hate that. We've lost the plot. And is it— look, I deal with people that have autoimmunity all day long. I can have that conversation, but to make that a universal statement on everybody is like, bro, the United States does not have a chronic health problem because they're overdoing spinach.

Yeah.

Like we have bigger problems in the world, and if you're picking on poor spinach, you've lost the plot. You're such— you're so isolated from the real world that yes, it is a pertinent conversation for some people, but that is a small subset of people.

Yes.

And how you prepare that food matters too. Steaming that spinach breaks down most of the oxalates anyways. So, and how much spinach are these people really eating?

That's what I'm saying.

Like I don't love any food that— certainly not spinach that I want to be having some freaking pounds of it. My mother-in-law is close. She has a salad that's like massive and I look at her, I'm like, how are you doing that?

She—

if anyone's overdoing spinach, it's my mother-in-law.

Man, I grab a handful and cook it with my vegetables that I have every day.

There you go, it breaks down most of the oxalates. Yes.

And, it's like when I stopped having it, I started to notice some problems. And, when I started having it again, I started to notice, okay, and my blood panel showed it is better.

Be your own N-of-1 experiment.

Yeah.

And, not comparing yourself to other people.

Here's my thought. You tell me what you think. I think, actually, I know in some circumstances, people look for whatever kind of things they can make to get polarizing content. Then, they put out something because one study or one reaction that this did this and that. And then they start doing it over and over to where they believe their own bullshit. And they say it so many times, they believe it. Like they really do. And it becomes like part of who they are.

Well, and I think like you said, we were talking about this offline, that I think most of these people that talk like this, not all of them, they— it worked for them.

Yes.

So then they apply it to everybody. Like they— it was their healing journey and then they speak in superlatives. So then the nuance and context is lost. So when I— when you have 10 hours a day for 16 years of all God's different types of people from all different geographic and socioeconomic backgrounds and different microbiomes, different genetics, you— there's a very— there's a few basic common sense things, but then beyond that, again, under the umbrella of nutrient-dense whole foods, you have to keep an open mind and be intellectually flexible.

Uh-huh.

Because you'd be proven wrong all day long if you hung your hat on like, this is the magic cure-all for everybody. It's from a macronutrient, micronutrient, and then specific even under the subset of keto or Mediterranean or paleo, there's so many different types of foods to focus on like we were talking about before. Like keto, cocaine is keto. It doesn't make cocaine healthy, right? Or like all this sort of packaged low sugar, no sugar stuff—

Yeah.

Technically keto, but does that make keto bad? It's like no, there's a tool for that, there's a time for that, for that, and there's a way to do it.

So, I know we're running low on time. I want to personally invite you for a part 2 and 3 because I have a whole slew of just GLP-related content for you and then a whole slew of diet and biblical stuff.

Okay.

So, I'm just going to throw that out on air right now.

Okay.

But, I want to finish with something here that I just kind of thought of. So, I was going to ask you something kind of of like staple supplement, boring related. I'm gonna name some stuff, okay, that could potentially cause some shit, maybe not. And I want you to answer. We'll do like 4 or 5 of them that are just popping into my head on your thoughts.

Sure.

And, and I want you to just tell me, yeah, it's good, no, it's not, maybe a quick reason why.

Sure.

Um, creatine.

Uh, again, the caveat for all of the— I'm horrible at rapid fire, so I apologize. The caveat is it depends, right? Right.

Yeah.

So I'll give you a pros pros and cons. Pro, I love the research around it. It's what— it's one of the most well-researched, if not the highest researched supplement in the scientific literature. Brilliant. Uh, lots of myths around it. Uh, people have— are otherwise healthy or just need support, it's a great tool. Um, the science around the neuroprotective, uh, brain enhancement, love it. The dose for some of those studies requires a bit more, not all of them. Uh, so you have to start off low and slow, build up over time. It's drawing a lot of water to So it can cause digestive problems and digestive upset if overdone, and overdone is bio-individual. So I, I think it's good. You can focus on food first and just get some good grass-fed beef in, and if you're eating solid amount of meat, you're getting a decent amount of creatine anyways there.

Uh-huh.

So time and place to get the efficacious dose that the researchers are looking at, you probably— most people would have to supplement. with, and I think it has a great place from an energy mitochondrial support. It supports methylation too, which I've seen it help with homocysteine levels. So, I think it's good overall with some caveats.

Electrolytes.

Great overall. It's one of the most— I would call it a low-hanging fruit to A lot of people's issues. Now, most people are getting enough sodium if they're eating the standard American diet because it's in ultra-processed foods, high sodium. If you're not eating the standard American diet, you're not— you probably aren't getting enough sodium, potassium, magnesium, and actually the research shows you need about 2 to 3 times government recommendations to help with cellular communication.

Uh-huh.

So back to Heal Your Cells and what I talk about with Dr. Ax in the book is that cells need to communicate. It starts with that membrane which we talked about earlier, but it also Also, the sweet electrical conductivity that cells use to communicate is in part driven by sodium, potassium, and magnesium. So, we need those babies to be optimized and you probably need more than you think you do. The problem isn't the sodium, potassium, and magnesium, it's the fillers and additives and the quality of the ingredients used, not the actual active ingredients themselves.

So, I brought that up because a lot of these are sodium bombs that they're filled with sodium and sodium chloride. They lack potassium and magnesium and a lot of of them will substitute potassium citrate for potassium chloride, and if you're deficient in potassium, you need the potassium chloride, which is what's medically prescribed, not the, the citrate, which is more for like what kidney and liver function and things like that. So I, I wanted to bring that up too, and then looking for sugars and fillers within that.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, look, I, I use— I formulated one for LongevityRx called Cellular Hydration, and we use whole foods. We use Celtic sea salt, which is mineral-rich. Yep. It comes with celery, it comes with coconut water and watermelon extract, so just from whole foods that are rich with these— with gel water, if you will. Foods are hydrating. So, if you're eating fruits and vegetables, the matrix of these fruits and vegetables actually are hydrating. Chia seeds are another one. Gel water is the compound. So, you can actually use foods to very much support cellular hydration, and we just made it convenient for people with cellular hydration. Beautiful. Got it.

Melatonin.

Controversial. That's why I went there. Yeah, controversial, yeah. Overall, do I put it at the top of my list of what people need to be taking? No. I've seen research from certain doctors out there that it really can be a great tool from an antioxidant standpoint and really be neuroprotective, kind of reset sort of the cell clocks, if you will, with the central nervous system clock. I don't feel the need for most people to be on it long-term.

Mm-hmm.

Do I think it could be part of a protocol pulsed for a period of time to help people from an antioxidant neuroprotective standpoint? I think there's enough data out there to show it may have its place. I think to microdose it, small dose judiciously, if somebody's traveling, if somebody is moving across time zones to help with resetting that sleep-wake cycle, I think that's more or less how I would utilize it. I personally don't utilize it. I don't need it at all. My son, who's in college, he likes it. If he's having like a random, like, wants to go to sleep and improve his sleep, he tracks it on an Oura Ring. He'll occasionally use it. I think people can lean on it a bit too much, but I don't think the fearmongering around it it is really helpful either, like saying like you'll become dependent or your body won't make it on its own. I just think that's a bit strong of a statement.

I got recommended high-dose melatonin, and when I say high-dose melatonin, I'm talking mega.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the kind of protocols I was talking about earlier.

So I did it for 3 weeks and I have never slept like that in my life. And I also felt like I had a night out of drinking every day, like I couldn't wake up. So, but, and I stopped taking it, then I was able to sleep more.

Yes, that's what I mean, like a pulsed Cellular clock reset. And then, yeah, it's not like you're not taking those megadoses forever and ever. Amen.

Okay, I got 2 quick ones for you. D3 with K2.

Paramount.

Yes.

Paramount. Yeah, it's— it's— I look at labs all day long, so most people are deficient in these fat-soluble vitamins on a cellular, intracellular level. Uh, yeah, they, they should be. I mean, we want vitamin D to be at least 60 to 80, could probably be a bit higher for some people. And then K2 is is another often overlooked fat-soluble vitamin that cells need to regulate themselves, to regulate inflammation, support the immune system, support heart health, brain health. So yeah, it's— and I would pair that with mainly from food sources, vitamin A, true vitamin A from retinol, from things like organ meats, grass-fed beef.

100%.

Fish oil, yeah.

Last one, and when I ask people, like every proficient practitioner and anybody really what their top 5 like staples levels are, I always ask them and this one is always number one is magnesium, but my question is not so much about the value of magnesium, it's the different forms of magnesium.

Yeah, yeah. Well, nature— I, I re— the research around some of the compounds like the magnesium threonate comes to mind where it can pass through the blood-brain barrier. I think and I'm aware of few researchers out there that are doing research of other forms of magnesium combined to these amino acids that can pass through the blood-brain barrier too, but threonate is the one that gets all the buzz. I think that we should mimic nature as much as we can in our modern life, and nature would have given us— does give us through foods multiple different forms of magnesium. So, magnesium complexes, I take one called Mag-18, also formulated with LongevityRx, which pairs magnesium with D3K2, which actually work synergistically.

Oh, okay.

Like they help each other. They help the bioavailability. So, whether you take that one or another one, I would say a magnesium complex is going to be the way to go. Sometimes I will do like a higher dose of magnesium threonate for telehealth patients, and I've seen that help. So, I'm not saying you only have to do a magnesium complex, but I would say foundationally, that's going to be the ideal.

You got to show me that one.

I will. Mag-18. Yeah, okay.

Well, my friend, I can't believe that that went that fast.

Thanks, man. Thanks for having me.

Just— I knew it was going to be extremely, extremely good. I didn't know it was going to be this good.

Wow.

You're the man, dude.

Thank you so much, man.

Thank you for making the time for me and, you know, us getting here to do this. Absolutely amazing. I really want people to check out your book. I, I've helped a lot of people with a lot of books. I read books all the time because they get sent to me. This is the best one that I've been sent yet, and that's some stiff competition, man.

That means a lot coming from you. I know how much you are immersed in this world, so thank you.

It's, it's so intelligently And, and it's easy to understand written.

So, thank you.

When is the book releasing?

It's September 8th, so probably when people hear this, unless they hear it earlier. Yeah, yeah, Heal Your Cells. All the information I have of my work is at drwillkohl.com. They can head to books, uh, that it's there, the link for Heal Your Cells and Longevity Rx, my podcast, which you're going to be on. It's called The Art of Being Well. Yeah, but thanks for giving me the opportunity.

Absolutely. Well, I'll link everything in the description. For you to follow you, to get this book, to get to your podcast. And like I said, brother, just an absolute pleasure to have you here. So—

And thanks to Josh Ax real fast. Josh Ax for giving us his studio. Friends let friends borrow their studio, and he's letting us like squat, be squatters, studio squatters. That's right.

True friends give, right?

That's right.

We love you, Josh. So that being said, stay tuned for plenty more to come. Dylan Gemelli and Dr. Will Cole signing off.