Transcript of Episode #165: Seriously, You Need to STOP Taking Ashwagandha!! Featuring Lucas Aoun

The one ingredient that I think most people should be avoiding and staying away from is ashwagandha. The testosterone boosting market is full of really crappy formulas, really poorly dosed ingredients, proprietary blends. You can tell that the manufacturer has not spent time thinking through each ingredient and why it's in there.

I lived in the low-fat diet world, I told you that, for so many years, and it made me one of the most miserable human beings alive.

On Google, it's Actually hard for people to find negative effects of canola oil. Have you noticed how they censor that shit?

As a person that's around supplements as much as you've been, if you had 3 that you would say that you would always go to first, what would your top 3 staples be?

One of my staple ingredients is actually—

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Go to timeline.com/jameli to take the longevity quiz and get your free gummies. That's timeline.com/jameli. All right, everybody, welcome back to the Dylan Gemelli Podcast. I figured I better hit play here and get going because we had a podcast before the podcast. My guest is, uh, Obviously, a good friend. We enjoy talking about every single aspect of really health and wellness. He's got specific niches and so do I, but we kind of go all over the place. And funny story, I was actually on Dave Asprey's podcast, then his production person reached out to me because my guest wanted to talk to me. And I said, hell yeah, get me on the phone with them. So, turned out to be a really good friendship. And I'm always so blessed to meet people like my guest today. But, He's Australia's leading biohacker. He's a TEDx speaker, and he's the founder of In Before You and Boost Your Biology. He's a wonderful naturopath. He has an exercise science background, and he's recognized globally for translating cutting-edge research into real-world performance protocols. And, he's also a trusted supplement formulator. I mean, he does everything. So, without further ado, my friends, Dylan, thanks for having me, man.

And I'm looking forward to having a fruitful conversation today.

Yeah, man, I'm excited. Thank you for the patience. I know that with the scheduling, I'm all over the place, but you've been super gracious. And I always, always am humbled by the fact that people are accommodating and want to talk to me. So, I'm looking forward to talking to you about many different aspects of things that you discuss and cover. And You and I see eye to eye on a lot of things, which I think this is gonna be intriguing, and we kind of get into the same kinds of topics. But I do wanna talk to you about different things that you run into since you're in a different country, and some of the similarities and differences, and just some of your ideologies in comparison to other people. So, first and foremost, as a naturopath, can you explain what that means, what being a naturopath is, and how that's differentiating from a— quote-unquote conventional doctor?

Sure. Yeah. So in Australia, to become a qualified naturopath, we have to do a 4-year Bachelor of Health Science degree. So that's what I did. And I tried to overload subjects to get it done quicker, but they, they wouldn't allow that. But basically, a naturopath is kind of like, sort of like a nutritionist plus a herbalist combined. So we're blending both and we're really focused on addressing the root cause of disease and illness. And I guess naturopaths are really well known for their expertise around gut health and microbiome-related issues. They love looking at poops, poop charts and all that. So, so naturopaths are very, very holistic in their, in their perspective around health.

Yeah.

And Dylan, I had the choice of either going down to become a pharmacist like my dad. My father owned a pharmacy here in Australia, did really well. I'm very happy for him, but I decided to go down a different path and become a naturopath because I wanted to. I could always see myself like formulating supplements in the future.

Yeah.

So I thought I can do that with a naturopathy degree, and that's where we are today.

Wow, very cool. Okay, awesome. So your dad has that kind of background.

Yeah, so I was actually— funny, funny story— I used to sort out the medication, the supplements and medications in the garage in the back of the pharmacy. And he used to say, if there's any, any sort of supplement or thing you want to take home, you can just grab it, you know, I could just take it home when I was— this is when I was really young. And then I realized a lot of the stuff that I was grabbing off the shelf was actually like out of date. It was actually not beneficial. Like, for example, um, fish oil supplements, you know, obviously they can become rancid if they're not stored properly. And so like I was grabbing them, trialing them, experimenting, and I was playing with probiotics. I was playing around with, you know, vitamin D, B vitamins. But at the same time that I was experimenting, every time I'd rock up to do a shift in the pharmacy, I was just researching the crap out of every single ingredient. So I just started to become obsessed with each ingredient mechanisms, how they work, the science behind them. I was— this is way before AI was a big thing, you know?

So I was just like a little geek at, in the pharmacy just researching ingredients.

So would, would you say that you kind of got your background and understanding from kind of being self-taught?

Pretty much, man. Yeah. I mean, like a lot of the stuff that I learned at university was just more— it was kind of like a lot of it was outdated and I just needed to do my own research, man, because the like class for me was too slow. Like things were moving way too slow and I was getting really bored. I was getting irritable. Like I'd stay back after class and just like research things and create Instagram posts. And then, yeah, I just pretty much just fell in love with, um, kind of like being a, being a voice for the supplement space and showcasing new research.

So when did you decide or start looking into becoming a formulator? And what was it? Because, you know, a lot of guys that I have been around, and myself included, when I was working in that side of the space, it was because I felt like there's so many ingredients that are misleading or bad formulas and I see the same old, same old, same old. What was it for you that made you want to do that? And when did that kind of happen in this journey?

That's actually really a good question, Dylan, because many, many years ago, there was a website called Rate— I think it was called ratemystack.com.

Yeah.

And do you remember that?

Yeah.

Of course, you remember that.

I do.

I can't believe you remember that. Like, none of my, none of my friends in Australia would even know what I'm talking about, bro.

The shit that, that I got into, it's just— I, I'm not even gonna go there.

Well, basically, uh, yeah, so I was, um, I was obviously on that website and I was— I was— for, for the audience listening in, Rate My Stack was basically you submit your hypothetical supplement cocktail, like your supplement stack with your ingredients and the dosages. And then every week I think people would upvote or downvote or, you know, would bump it and recommend it. And many, many times in a row I kept on like winning the— like I always ranked number 1. And I'm like, I think people really love my shit. Like they really love the way that I formulate. So I'm like, I always— and then Then from there, I actually got involved in Australia's very first nootropic startup. It was a company that, that basically was selling nootropics way before anyone else was in Australia. Um, and when I got involved in that company, the, the owner of the company gave me the privilege and said, we want you to formulate our next product. And I'm like, this is sick. I get a chance to actually showcase my expertise And then just from there, I'm like, in 5 to 10 years from now, I want to have my own internationally renowned supplement company.

And that's where In Before, my supplement brand, was, was born.

Okay. So what is your supplement brand focus or main point of focus on? Do you have a specific demographic or is it kind of a wide variety?

Well, Great question. So the brand name In Before, actually, um, have you, have you seen that term used in forums? Like in before somebody enters the chat, you know?

Yeah.

Like, um, so the whole premise behind In Before is, is predicting the market before it's happened. So like releasing ingredients before it's become super trendy. So like ahead of the curve sort of thing. That's why the name In Before. As far as our demographic, well, I was just telling you now that, um, before this was that I'm releasing a testosterone formulation, um, to serve my current audience because they, they have told me they want a testosterone support product.

Mm-hmm.

And they've given me that task because they know that I've just been talking about testosterone optimization for years. And so that product is most likely going to be serving, you know, men. But you mentioned just before that it could be a good product for women as well that have low testosterone.

Yeah. So doing that, you have a lot to overcome because you have a lot of years of— let's just call it what it is— dogshit testosterone boosters. So I, I know for sure, knowing you, that you're not going to do that unless you have some really, really strong evidence on this working. You don't necessarily have to get into the ingredient makeup yet if you don't want to. If you do, great. But why do you feel different about doing this? Because it is— I mean, I've been on bodybuilding forums and working with bodybuilders since 2011, and I know the kind of things that people say and that you run into. And some of it, fair play, because I've seen some pretty rough ingredient makeups. But like I said, I trust in you. So, If you want to get into that a little bit, please do explain, because it is a polarizing type of product, man.

The testosterone boosting market is full of literally, like you said, really crappy formulas, really poorly dosed ingredients, um, proprietary blends. You can tell that the manufacturer has— or the, the creator of the product has not, has not spent time thinking through each ingredient and why it's in there. They've just been a lazy ass and they've just basically, you know, they've copied what the other company's doing. They're just throwing in some like maca powder or D-aspartic acid or, um, maybe a little bit of shilajit and fenugreek. Look, the product that I formulated, Dylan, it's called Peak Tea. Now I have 8 ingredients in the product, and over the years I've had the privilege of actually working with hundreds of guys around the world, and I've actually seen before and after blood work where I've actually prescribed certain ingredients. And, and over time I've built a database understanding what effect they're having on their hormonal parameters. And not just testosterone, by the way. I'm looking at DHT, I'm looking at estrogen, I'm looking at prolactin, I'm looking at cortisol, because it's the whole picture. You obviously understand that it's not just about testosterone. So what I've done with the stack is I ended up curating a short list of like 8 ingredients.

And these 8 ingredients are ingredients that I've prescribed and have seen benefit, and most importantly, lack major side effects. Because that's the problem with a lot of the commonly known testosterone-boosting ingredients. One of them, ashwagandha, which I've spoken about before, has some, you know, nasty side effects such as suppressing emotional adapt, you know, pleasure response and emotions and making men feel numb. Um, so pretty much my rationale for the product was I want to build a product that I know when guys do blood work pre and post, they're going to see a meaningful increase in free testosterone and total testosterone. The second thing is I wanted to create a product where I know the ingredients will make a guy subjectively feel like feel the dopaminergic, the dopamine kick that they're looking for from a test booster, which is why a lot of guys want a test booster in the first place, is for motivation and drive and confidence. Testosterone does all 3. So there's a couple of ingredients that I've included, and one of them is a South American herb called Mira Puama, which has been used as an aphrodisiac for many, many years. That hits the dopamine system, and I use that instead of mucuna.

Mucuna is an L-dopa precursor. But then the other ingredients that I've included are— so we've got boron at 10 milligrams, which obviously, you know, helps to lower SHBG. That, that's a really decent ingredient. Tongkat Ali, which is another one that a lot of guys are using as part of a PCT and helps with, you know, increasing peripheral testosterone production. Then I've got One from traditional Chinese medicine which has been used for a long, long time called pine pollen. So pine pollen is Mother Nature's most potent source of phytoandrogens, which can bump out and displace BPA and plastics. So that's a, that's a really big, you know, ingredient that can help with that. And then I've got 2 trademarked ingredients that actually have multiple human clinical studies demonstrating an increase in free testosterone and total testosterone. And they are Test Factor and Testnore. So those 2 ingredients, if people research them, one of them, Testnore, is a pomegranate and cacao combination. And the second one is Mangifera indica and Indian globe thistle. And those 2 ingredients stacked together have 4 human clinical studies demonstrating improvements in male, um, you know, male aging symptoms as well.

Nice. That's a good makeup. And people that are listening, the, you know, pomegranates got health or heart health benefits. And if you don't understand, like, the boron— and that's— I, I know a decent testosterone booster when that's included, because then there's the understanding that if SHBG is high, your test is going to be low. So, we're at least addressing that to help boost it, right?

Yeah.

So, and it needs a hero ingredient, which you have 2, which is nice because otherwise it's a combination of fenugreek and some other bullshit that doesn't do anything. And Tongkat Ali is actually shown to be effective.

It is.

It got, it got some recognition, you know, like 7, 8 years ago, but it doesn't seem like it got used prevalently enough. And maybe it costs more, I don't know, um, because that factors into a lot. But it sounds like you've covered the bases pretty well there, and there's other benefits involved, which I like.

Well, exactly right, man. There's even the— I've also included black ginger. Now, black ginger has been popping off like crazy on, on the subreddit, um, Reddit Nootropics, and Dude, what guys are saying about black ginger is actually insane. They're basically reporting thermogenic effects, so they're seeing that they're they're noticing that they're sweating more during their workouts. There's even there's even studies showing that black ginger increases energy expenditure at rest, similar to caffeine and like yohimbine and a few other ingredients. And then a lot of guys are reporting major boosts in in energy and and blood flow because. black ginger contains naturally occurring PDE5 inhibitors. So you've got this cocktail of boron, Tongkat, black ginger, pine pollen, Test Factor, Testnore, and a baby dose of zinc. Um, and like, that's your, that's your stack, you know, that's Peak T.

I love it. It sounds like it's very, very promising, and I have a good feeling about that one. 'Cause generally, I don't get excited when I hear test booster. But, when I saw you post about that, I thought, okay, I'm going to talk to him about this because I know there's more there. Let me ask you this. As a formulator and as a person that's around supplements as much as you've been, if you had 3, and they don't have to be obscure, but 3 that you would say that you would always go to first, as your staples, like creatine or whatever, what would your top 3 staples be? And this is coming from like a hardcore, you know, formulator that understands and knows what's good and what isn't.

Great question, man. So one of my staple ingredients is actually taurine. You probably, you probably have, you know, been using it for years as well yourself and you know quite a lot about it. It's a phenomenal ingredient. The research study in 2024 where they said taurine deficiency as a driver of aging, man, when that paper was released, I doubled down on taurine. I was just like, this ain't going anywhere. So that just solidified my interest in taurine. And I've been taking, for example, this morning I took 3 grams. straight away as soon as I woke up. And for me, what I find from taurine is that every time I research it on PubMed, there's a new study. There's a new study on a different organ system where it's helping, right? It's either the kidneys, the liver, the eyes, the heart, the brain. Like, it just hits so many parts of the— of male physiology. And so I'm like looking at the cost to benefit rate. Obviously, the Super cheap, it's abundant, it's ubiquitous, you can— it's easy to find. Um, so for me, 3 to 6, 3 to 6 grams of taurine a day does a really good job at keeping cortisol in check, um, helping with, um, you know, balancing electrolytes because it's an osmolite.

It helps with heart health. I know a lot of guys that have seen improvements in their palpitations from taurine. That helps with that. Have you used taurine for probably a few years as well, Dylan?

You know, when I discovered taurine was when I really actually started to first understand it was drinking Red Bull in the early 2000s, honestly, because I remember I was drinking when I actually drank alcohol, Red Bull and vodka, and I was looking at the back of the can one time and that's when I noticed it. And, I was starting to study supplements at the time. And, that's when I started to look at it. And then, as I got older and got more into the bodybuilding and the forums, then I started to realize, wow, this is in a lot of ingredients. Why are the smaller companies putting this in there and the big ones aren't? And, that's when I started to kind of look into it and study it. The palpitation thing you brought up, how does that help with that?

Yeah. The main mechanisms here is that Taurine has an impact on calcium channels. So calcium channels regulate contractility, which you've probably seen how in order for a muscle to contract, it needs to dump calcium, right? Calcium helps to facilitate contraction and magnesium does the opposite. Magnesium calms and relaxes. Taurine actually helps to regulate calcium, calcium channels in the heart. So that can help to regulate heartbeat frequency and, um, and rhythm. And then the second thing is that it has a cardioprotective effect in that it can actually help to reduce, um, oxidative stress in heart cells. Um, so like, that's another unique effect. Um, and then I would imagine, oh, the most obvious mechanism would be the balancing effect on the sympathetic outflow versus parasympathetic response. So because taurine is highly parasympathetic, not sympathetic, it's parasympathetic dominant. Um, because I mean, that's the reason why they included it in Red Bull, that whoever made Red Bull, they freaking knew what they were doing. Like, like, they were pretty onto it, to be honest. Um, like, they knew, all right, let's throw in some taurine, because back then they didn't really have L-theanine. They needed something to balance out the jitters.

Let's throw in some taurine because it's GABAergic. So it's got the GABA effects that people love, you know?

Yeah. So you recommend 3, about 3 grams a day of taurine? Yeah.

I don't really see any, any major downside apart from possibly lowering blood pressure a little bit. But apart from that, it's, it's fine for most people.

Excellent. So that's number 1. 2 more.

All right. Second one I'm gonna put on the list is one that you may or may not have heard of, lactoferrin.

Yeah, yeah, get into that, please.

Yeah, so lactoferrin is one of my favorite immune peptides. It's found in colostrum, and it's also found in whey protein, and it's also found in raw milk. What do I like about lactoferrin? Well, the first thing that I love is that it helps to balance and regulate iron levels in our bodies. So what I like about it is that it can have a modulatory effect on iron. So If your iron levels are too high, what it will do is it will starve— basically will protect that iron from being used by pathogens. I'm not sure if you've seen, but free-roaming iron in, in the body, it's a— it's, it's an issue when it's in excess, right? This is why people who have hemochromatosis, they have to donate blood because it's, you know, iron is damaging to the body.

Right.

What I like about lactoferrin is it has a balancing effect on iron levels, so it can help to modulate how the body handles iron, how it absorbs it. So that's number one. Number 2, if you look up lactoferrin, you'll see that it has a bunch of really beneficial immune studies, so really beneficial effects on our immune system. And then the third thing is it it's a, to cover your ass sort of thing from a gut health perspective.

Mm-hmm.

Lactoferrin can help to increase, you know, the growth of beneficial bacteria, and then it can also help to reduce endotoxin in the gut. So for me, I see no risk in using it long-term personally. It's a cover your bases kind of supplement similar to taurine, but more immune and gut related. And for me, I just, I just feel better on, on lactoferrin. I think it's probably because it's reducing endotoxin. Anytime you can lower systemic endotoxin or gut endotoxin, then that's quite beneficial.

So is that the main ingredient in colostrum then?

That's what they believe. I mean, some people will say it's the immunoglobulins that are the actives, but I personally think lactoferrin is like the star, the star ingredient.

Yeah. What's your thought on colostrum before you go forward?

I think that it has some benefit and some use case. I haven't had enough personal experience. I did go through like 3 to 6 months of using it. I didn't notice a huge amount, but again, I'm not someone who— I probably don't have leaky gut, really bad leaky gut. I probably don't have severe immune dysfunction. So for me, it's probably not like transformative, but I can see how for someone who has major gut issues and allergies and eczema and things like that, colostrum can be beneficial.

Definitely. Okay, number 3, because I got some, I got some other good ones for you.

Okay, um, number 3. So I mean, it's really boring, but yeah, vitamin D. I like— it is boring, but—

That's okay.

It needs, needs to be there. It needs to be there because it's kind of like, yeah, even though I'm in the sun quite a lot per year, I'm still not getting enough vitamin D. So it's— and I've actually done blood work. Um, I got really interested to see what would happen if you really superdose vitamin D, and I'm talking like 15,000 to 20,000 IU a day, like for, for months. It did boost my vitamin D like almost to the— it was basically top end of the range. I think it was 210. And, um, at the time that I did my testosterone test, of course I was using a bunch of other ingredients, but when I did my testosterone test, um, I was sitting at 990 nanograms per deciliter. And that was obviously with a few of the other ingredients in Peak T, like the Tongkat, the boron. But I was really happy to be— this was 2 months ago, my testosterone was sitting at 992.

Nice.

Yeah.

So I have a question for you. Let's say somebody is having trouble absorbing potassium, magnesium, some— something like that. What would be the reason for that? Because I've seen that. Is that a leaky gut issue or what kind of problem would that be?

If somebody has issues with— you mean electrolyte uptake and absorption?

Yeah.

Like, so there's a few potential things that could interfere with absorption. The first one is actually certain medications can reduce— they can increase the potassium excretion. number one. Some of them can also lower blood sodium levels as well. I mean, there's other things in our environment and things that we, we do, like drinking coffee can lower, um, you know, sodium, um, it can deplete the body of sodium. Um, and then also, it's not usually a gut, gut-related thing that interferes with electrolyte absorption. It's usually a kidney-related thing because kidneys help to balance sodium, potassium. They filter out, they, they clean the blood. So it's more of a kidney-related thing. Um, and even sometimes during adrenal, uh, like complete burnout, like adrenal exhaustion, um, you'll find that their sodium levels, uh, have tanked. So you'll see that like they're low sodium because they're not producing enough cortisol, and cortisol helps to absorb and increase sodium. So, there's a few factors there.

Okay. One of the things that I've kind of been taking a deeper look at that I've talked to some people about recently is melatonin, not for sleep, so to speak, but as an antioxidant, as brain health, high-dose melatonin. I'm talking 200 milligrams of melatonin. Have you any thought on melatonin itself as more than just a sleep aid? And, what do you think about going on those higher doses? In retrospect, I definitely saw a huge increase in my ability to sleep and I think the overall well-being, but then I also noticed a constant hangover effect that said was potential for some people where I just couldn't shake it. I just had to stop because it was supposed to subside after your body got used to it, and apparently mine didn't get the memo. So, I'm just curious on your thoughts.

Yeah. So, I mean, melatonin is one of those really interesting hormones. And funnily enough, I'm sure you've seen it, but the guys that are doing melatonin up the butthole, there's a few guys.

I love that story.

Yeah. I think Ben Greenfield and a few other guys have been talking about that. But basically, look, melatonin I see as a super regenerative antioxidant, right? It's got some incredible effects on immune health. I mean, during the virus pandemic, melatonin use would have been beneficial for a lot of people. The groggy— the reason why I don't use melatonin Um, because I have other tools that I'll leverage for immune protection, antioxidants, peptides. You know, there's other things that I'll use to, to get the job done. But if somebody's suffering from jet lag, obviously melatonin is phenomenal at resetting that circadian rhythm. Um, the only thing is I have so many other strategies that can help with sleep, such as like vagus nerve stimulation, um, you know Acupressure mat, blackout eye mask. You know, I've got an Eight Sleep mattress. Like, for me, I see melatonin as a tool in the toolkit if you don't really care if you wake up groggy. Because personally, when I used melatonin back in the day, I was the same. I couldn't, I couldn't use it without feeling just like my mood was flat the following day. And I think that's possibly due to its anti-dopamine effects.

It actually has— there's some studies showing that it can basically act as an antipsychotic to a degree, which is not great. So yeah, I mean, if I'm gonna use it, I've like— it'll be— if I'm gonna use it long term, it would be 1 milligram sustained release. Or if I'm going to use it short-term, it'll be a high dose short-term for immune balancing as well.

Got it. Okay. There's a lot of people that I feel like more recently have taken more notice to the multitudes of benefits and don't just call it a sleep pill because it's really not. And, uh, I'm with you, man. I had that hangover effect and it's just, I'd rather find another way to help with sleep. I can't stand that kind of— I used to have to take a muscle relaxer. It was called— I can't think off the top of my head when I had some Flexeril. Man, that thing made you feel like you had been drinking for an entire 2 nights straight by the time you woke up the next day. So, I can't stand that. It's just unproductive. Are there any supplements right now that you think are popular that are absolute bullshit? that people are using and they shouldn't be, or they're getting misled?

Absolutely. Um, the one, the one ingredient that I'm, I'm bullish on that I think most people should be avoiding and staying away from is ashwagandha. Um, I've spoken about ashwagandha a lot on YouTube and Instagram. I think I was actually one of the first, Dylan, on, on the internet talking about how ashwagandha can cause anhedonia. Or a blunting of the pleasure response and lowering cortisol too far, where people feel apathetic, they feel indifferent, they feel like they've lost their motivation. They feel a strong blunting effect on, for example, things that should give you a hit of dopamine. It will basically blunt that. So it puts— it keeps you in this state of just kind of like dull, dull, like constantly just numb and dull, which is similar to how, you know, SSRIs for some people work. They just sort of numb you out. So for me, I think ashwagandha is problematic. Um, if people want to research that, they can just type in ashwagandha, um, you know, emotional numbness. They'll see my bunch of my YouTube videos and hundreds Literally thousands of comments on my videos also saying they noticed the same thing. And then eventually, about a year ago, it became a huge trend on TikTok where people who had a breakup would take ashwagandha to numb, to numb themselves, you know, so they couldn't feel the pain.

Um, so it's kind of like, kind of like what alcohol does for some people, but Um, and even Denmark, like, they're banning ashwagandha. You've got, um, like India banning ashwagandha leaves. Um, it's just one of those ingredients that's been way overhyped, and not a fan.

I have a question for you because I took it because it said it was helping with anxiety and Maybe it was because I was smoking too much pot at the time, but I felt like it exacerbated anxiety when I took it. And I never— I've tried it 3 different times, never saw one good thing from taking it. And I tried every good solid brand. I don't ever buy anything cheap at all. And I never found one thing of benefit. Could it potentially exacerbate anxiety?

Yeah. So, there's a certain subset of the population if you have thyroid If you have thyroid dysfunction, ashwagandha can really mess up your TSH and T4 and T3 levels.

Okay.

So that can definitely worsen anxiety. And then the second thing is that it's actually part of the nightshade family. So I'm not sure how you go with nightshade foods like eggplant, potatoes. Like, it's in the same family as those foods. So if they mess you up, Then it's likely that this would as well.

Okay, got it. I was looking at some of your content and I had seen something that you put up and I want to see what your thoughts are on this because I have always believed that you can reverse plaque in your arteries. I don't ever listen to that you can't from any doctor whatsoever. And so what's your thought on that? And if so, do you have any types of things that you would recommend to potentially reverse plaque?

Yeah. So when it comes to cardiovascular health, I'm, I'm very a big believer in there's a lot that we can do from a lifestyle, supplemental nutrition perspective.

Mm-hmm.

I think more focus should be put on to the impacts of our microbiome on plaque formation. So like what sort of gut bacterias can actually can have a favorable effect on helping cardiovascular health. So we know that Akkermansia, which is a well-known gut bacteria now, that has some beneficial effects on metabolic syndrome. It has some studies showing that it can help to lower blood sugar. It has some studies showing that it can help with cholesterol. But as far as arterial plaque, the ingredients that I would be considering I wouldn't say they have definitive evidence, but the ingredients that I would consider are ingredients like nattokinase.

That was my number one.

Perfect. That's how we see eye to eye on so many things.

I know.

The second ingredient that I would say is an absolute essential staple is coenzyme Q10. That's just general cardiovascular health. Um, and then the third that I would recommend is a particular herb from Chinese medicine called salvia.

Yeah, I've heard of that. Yeah, talk about that, would you?

Yeah, sure. So, um, when I was— because I was a real geek and I was, you know, researching herbal, herbal medicine back in the day, I used to go to a— there used to be a store in the city called, um, It was called like Chinese medicine bookstore basically. And I used to look at their— what, what are the herbs that they basically swore by? They used to say this is— I would look for commonalities. Like what you— when you look at the formulas, you look for ingredients that they use frequently. If they're using a herb frequently, clearly it's beneficial. Like they keep on using it in so many different formulas. Why is that the case? Every time I looked into the cardiovascular formulas, this, this Salvia Dan Shen, D-A-N Shen, I don't know how I remember that. Salvia miltiorrhizia or something like that. Miltiorrhizia, um, that's the Latin name. Anyway, basically what they found is that it can help to increase cardiovascular contractility, so increasing ejection volume, improving, um, you know, heart rhythm, um, helping with blood flow. Yeah, I just saw, I saw this ingredient. I'm like, if I were to formulate a heart health supplement in the future, I would definitely consider that as an ingredient.

So that can also then have a benefit on ejection fraction and strength of the heart pump?

From what I remember seeing in some of the animal studies, yeah, it has some benefit in that regard.

Excellent. I'm always looking for anything that has like multifaceted benefits on the heart, especially when it comes to that because a lot of people focus, and rightfully so, on the cholesterol side and the plaque buildup, but then forget the importance of the actual strength of the heart. And, the more we train, the more we get older, and the more rigorous activity we put through it, a lot of times endurance athletes or athletes that are really doing a lot of output will naturally have a lower ejection fraction. So, it's just something to keep an eye on. and to try to make sure that you're watching and feeding in a good way, you know, any kind of natural supplement you could.

There's another— just remember, you just reminded me there's actually another herb from Chinese medicine. It's called, um, gynostemma. Have you heard of gynostemma?

I have not, no.

This is crazy, dude. You watch, you hear this. So basically there's a region in China, it's like a southern region in China where they have a huge amount of centenarians. So like people that live to 100 plus. And what they were looking at was like, what are they doing on a daily basis that makes them live so long? And they found that a lot of these centenarians were drinking a tea, and this tea was gynostemma. It's, um, also known as jagulan. Gynostemma, G-Y-N-O- G-Y-N-O, gyno, and then stemma, S-T-E-M-M-A.

Yeah.

Gynostemma pentaphyllum. When I came across this herb about 5 years ago, I was like, how does— how do we not know? Like, the Western world, both the US and Australia, like, no one even knows what this shit is. Um, and I'm like, this has a lot of potential. And I'm like, okay, so they call it southern ginseng. So it's their, like, their version of a ginseng, but it's not really a ginseng. And if you actually get the— I've used it in capsule form, I've used it in tea form. It's actually one of the sweetest tasting herbs you'll ever try. It tastes so good. It could even— it was actually used as a sugar substitute. That's how nice it is. And basically, I remember seeing a study showing that that can also increase heart contractility as well. So, really good for heart health.

This is actually sold at even Ulta. I just looked it up as we were talking and they even have it. Miracle Grass used to support longevity and vitality, sweet flavor. I'm going to check this out as well. I actually just interviewed a pretty, pretty highly knowledgeable person that discussed it a whole lot of traditional Chinese medicine. So, this is definitely going to be on my shortlist, my friend.

Yeah.

So, I would like to shift a little bit. We're going to stay still with health, but I want to get into some diet. I want some thoughts on your side diet-related. I have really been working quite thoroughly right now on the gut and the microbiome like we were talking about. And so, I'm I know you're well-versed on that, but one of the things I've been working with on one of the doctors that I've been doing a lot of content with is different types of diets. And man, oh man, the way that people just— they get so angry if your diet is different than what they do, or there's this like— they literally want to fight you if you don't agree with their specific diet. Now, here's one of my things is one, Keto is great, carnivore fine, Mediterranean fine, whatever. But these are just tools, they're lifestyles. It's like some people think that you just do these forever. I don't believe that. I don't believe you run keto forever. I love certain aspects of it. What are your thoughts on diets in general? Is it more adaptable to each individual, or do you have a belief system on just like one set track?

Man, I have like— my opinion on nutrition has fluctuated so much over the years. Like, as a good scientist should, you should be very open to new opinions and new research because, dude, the whole landscape is evolving and it's evolving fast. We're learning about how certain foods affect your microbiome, how certain foods affect your estrogen detox clearance rate. How certain foods can affect your, your blood flow. When I look at food, Dylan, I'm looking at food from an information standpoint. So I'm looking at what is this food providing me, what is it going to do to my physiology and my biology. That's how I look at food. So I'm just looking at it from, all right, if I'm gonna— if I'm looking for a certain food to fuel me for the gym, I'll just select any one of my favorite carbs. Like ones that I can digest okay. And I'm also bearing in mind, okay, well, I'm also probably gonna need something that helps with blood flow and circulation. So I might have some pomegranate juice as a carbohydrate, as a pre-workout, or I might have some watermelon, you know, like something like that. But ultimately over the years, I have just, I've just learned which foods to stay away from and which foods agree with me.

And that is unique to me. Whatever works for me doesn't necessarily matter for you. And I'm also very, very like the opposite of dogmatic. I'm super like open-minded. I'm very kind of like, the only thing that I'm against is extreme, extreme fit, like vegan, like avoiding meat entirely. Like, for me, that was I can't thrive on in that state, like in order to have high testosterone and feel full and to feel good. I'm just, I'm, I'm really, I'm open-minded. Like I'm probably similar to yourself. Like you're, you're also, you seem pretty open-minded as well around nutrition.

I feel like you have to be open-minded about everything. And the minute that you start just shutting down or shutting off is the minute that you really become irrational and you start to believe your own bullshit and you start to think that your way is the only way, as opposed to like what you said, a good scientist or a good thought leader always has the ability to ask questions and to reevaluate, admit when they're wrong, or realize there's multiple ways to do things. And I think that society now has made that Like not the norm, where the norm is more hateful, more my way or the only way, more this is how I feel, so that's the fact. And it's not, it's not beneficial. It creates a lot of issue. Diversity is great, but yelling and screaming and fighting and having anger and hate is not. And it doesn't allow us to make progress. Progress results in disagreement. agreements and learning. And you might say something I don't necessarily agree with, but then I'll say, what do you think about this, Lucas? And you could be like, huh, I think that sucks. Or, oh wow, you brought up a good point.

Either way, it's like, why are you getting your feelings hurt over what kind of fucking food you prefer? You know what I mean?

Yeah.

It's just like, it's come to that where it's like— I said this to my wife one time, she started laughing. I said, it's like they're married to the fucking oatmeal because I said it wasn't good for you. You know what I mean? It's— that's what it's become. And I just don't I don't know. I think you made good points where it's like you gotta learn what works for you. And you know this, Lucas, as we age, or sometimes our bodies, we do something so long they acclimate or they don't respond as well, or it triggers something else. And, and you have to be aware of that, right?

That's a, that's an important point. There's certain foods when I was younger I could tolerate completely fine, but now unfortunately Like, I just can't. Like, unfortunately for me, potatoes, I can't tolerate them that well. Unfortunately, they cause gut irritation. They make me feel bloody tired, like really, really exhausted. Um, but I think, I mean, I'm always looking at— I'm not a good person to— let's put it this way. The way that I perceive food is extremely like nerdy and geek. Like, I'm not your average consumer. Your average consumer is thinking, what can I eat that just tastes good? Um, that's all they think of, usually think about, is just, just self-satisfying. But when I look at food, I'm thinking, which polyphenol am I getting from this? What is this going to do to my estrogen? What is this going to do to my insulin? What is it going to do to my cortisol? What's this piece of wild-caught salmon going to be doing for my heart health, my brain health? Like, I mean, I'm pretty like If you see my Instagram, it's all about, you know, micro, micro details.

I think if we look at food as medicine and realize that there's things that we need for things that we may be lacking, and also understanding what metabolic flexibility is and, and knowing that you, you need to do some things differently on different days and different activity levels like you put out, or different goals that we have. You know, the bodybuilder that's trying to put on a bunch of size is going to need more carbs than somebody that's trying to lose weight. Or I, I just feel like people need to understand what adapting to, to the goal and what your health is screaming at you is, is the right diet.

Yeah, I think it's spot on, man. Like, like you said, I mean Your nutrition will ultimately vary depending upon activity levels, how well you slept, you know, what your goals are. If your goals are to ramp up testosterone naturally, if you're in a calorie deficit, you've already lost the battle.

Mm-hmm.

Okay, if you, if you're going super low fat, you've already lost the battle. If you're, um, just like, there's certain principles that apply depending upon the goal, you know. So it's like, if you want to optimize testosterone, I can tell you exactly what to eat because I know what works for testosterone. It's mostly saturated fats, you know, meat, butter, eggs, you know, dairy, and then, you know, decent amount of carbohydrates. Don't be fearful of carbs at all, like rice, bread, sourdough bread, fruit, yogurt. And then from the protein sources, it's, you know, like your steak, your chicken, your fish. It's just be like, you like use your brain.

I have to tell you this. So I did that interview and I put a post up and he was talking about that the Mediterranean diet was what seemed to be the most conducive. And, and we were talking about the bullshit with lectins that were being like just totally out of line and tomatoes. And somebody left a comment, and, and I had— normally I just don't even care, but it said, you do realize that that diet's loaded with seafood and eggs and meats? And I'm going, okay, and, and it's all exactly what we want, right? Like I'm so lost here. And I just, I left it alone. I was like, I, then, then what are you supposed to eat, brother man?

You know?

And I, I, I was like, those are all the best things that we could be having.

So, um, you know what's funny, actually, just real quick, I came up with a diet acronym. Um, it was the EFS diet. EFS. It's eggs for breakfast, fish for lunch, steak for dinner. Oh, it's just a simple principle. Eggs for breakfast, fish for lunch, steak for dinner.

EFS. I love it. I love that. That's so ideal, man. I, uh, I lived in the low-fat diet world. I told you that for so many years, and it made me one of the most miserable human beings alive. I, I'd be curious your thoughts on dangers of going low-fat too much, like lack of fat in your diet.

Man, I mean, the, the problems that that can cause— brain health issues, hormonal dysfunction, I mean, the fats are incredibly important for, for various organs. And, um, most importantly, I would say the biggest one is the fat-soluble vitamin absorption. So like, if you're not absorbing vitamins A, D, E, K2, just watch your health degenerate. Like, it'll just— it'll, it'll be terrible. Um, I think that's a really important component that a lot of people forget. But then Dude, I don't know if you've noticed this, but on Google it's actually hard for people to find negative, like, negative effects of, um, canola oil stuff. Have you noticed how they censor that shit?

Yeah, big time.

It's actually ridiculous. Like, you can't— for, for an average consumer, let's say you're just an average person, you, you look up Is canola oil healthy? You'll see they do head-to-head studies against like butter.

Yeah.

And they show that canola oil was healthier than butter. You know, like how they actually misrepresent the data. So like, yeah, you can easily see how the average person can get brainwashed by mass media.

There's a big push right now about trying to make all of these CEDARs like they're being fearmongered and that they're so healthy for you and that what people are saying is just a lie. And I'm curious as your thoughts on that. I'll get into it after— I'll retort after what you say.

Well, it's funny because I, I really wanted to make content about this about a year ago, and one of my research assistants that I have, he's, he's kind of like— he's very neutral. He's just like, let's only go with what the evidence shows. But I was There's a huge debate around that right now, but in my opinion, if when I look at something like canola oil and I compare it to other types of fats like extra virgin olive oil or, or butter or coconut oil, and I look at the— I'm not looking at the calorie count, I'm not looking at that, that stuff. I'm looking at what predominant type of fat is in canola oil. Okay, what— and tell, tell us more about what this does in the body when it enters the body. What is it actually doing to cells? Is it destabilizing membranes? Is it very fragile? Is it prone to oxidation? Um, yes it is, yes it is, yes it is. And then it's also like, what, what studies are out there showing that canola oil enhances human health? You won't, you won't really see a lot of data out on that.

You'll see plenty of studies on extra virgin olive oil And you'll see plenty of studies on coconut oil, right? You know, but yeah, what were your thoughts on that?

Well, I'll tell you what my thoughts are on it. I'm actually just getting ready to sign a contract as a board member on the Seed Oil Free Alliance certification company that's out there. So I have been discussing with them now for several months, and they have offered me a seat on their advisory board.

Amazing, man.

Yeah. So, I think that'll kind of sum up my thoughts on it. Basically, the goal there is that label shows that it's been through their rigorous process of proving things are seed oil-free. Now, what you find is with the seed oils themselves, it's how they're made, how they're processed, the damage that it's causing. And, to overlook that and to act as though that's not happening and then to try to misconvey the information, based upon the amount of money that they're making off of it and then putting out influencers, giving them a bunch of nonsensical information to put out there that they don't even know what they're talking about, as opposed to people that I worked with that have years and mountains of studies showing the negative effects. And, it's so frustrating. And, I'm sure you deal with that quite often in the supplement world. One of my biggest gripes about supplements has always been the amount of mismarketing and those companies with all the money, and I'm just going to name one like Gold Standard Protein, who makes one of the shittiest protein powders on the market but sells the most because they got all the money.

Yep.

So it makes it hard for smaller brands and names to actually get out there. And then you get these things in Walmart and Costco, and no shade because I love— I love Costco, but the stuff that they get in there, it's some of the lowest grade products because they got all the money.

Yeah, it's a different difficult terrain to operate in, but I think you being part of that board is going to be a really a big strength to the team because you've got a, you've got a great platform, a prominent voice, and, um, like, you know, the damaging effects of these products, like these oils. A lot of them are— it's like you said, the way they're manufactured and the, the types of things that they do as part of the processing. stay away. I just think it's— canola oil should not be used in anyone's pantry at all. Like, it just should not be brought home at all.

No. And, and, you know, they— the people that fight back and call it fear-mongering or have a motive— well, what's the motive? I mean, I— you act like I'm selling some sort of alternative oil or something. Like, I'm not selling anything. I— you know what I mean? I mean, the whole point is And what I do is to not sell things. It's to highlight people like yourself, get people out there that have a message that need to be seen, and then help people to avoid the shit we're talking about.

Yeah.

You know, that's the goal.

Yeah.

So, I just get so frustrated. That's why it's refreshing to have somebody like you that does things the right way. And then that brings me to your process of production. On your supplements. How serious do you take that? What kind of rigors do you go to the extent to ensure that people are getting the very best?

Well, first of all, it took us about one whole year to find a manufacturer in, in Utah that we were happy with. And we literally vetted like 6 different companies in the States to figure out which one's going to be a good partner. I had a lot of Luckily, I had some good mentors that helped me with that decision-making. Like, I've got obviously Sean Wells is one of my mentors and a few others. So I've got the right people around me to know who to ask, people that I trust. But, um, as far as like the certificate of analysis and the product testing, like, that, that takes a lot, a fair bit of time. It definitely slows things down. Like, obviously no one wants to wait 3 months for a bloody result, but we, we did. We have. We waited because we don't want to risk our reputation. We don't want to risk having a product that's not up to standard. So I just got the COAs back this morning. I got my certificate of analysis back this morning and I had a look at them and I was happy with them. So that's something that we do take seriously.

And again, with the trademarked ingredients that I've got in my product, the test factor in the Testo. I mean, they're subject to huge pressure because, you know, I'm not the only one using their ingredients. There's a lot of other big, big, big, big brands that are using them. So it's kind of like they have to be up to standard. Otherwise, if they, if they stuff up, like, they're in for a huge lawsuit.

Yeah, I just, I, I always hope people take those standards and And go the extra mile because so many people don't. And how old are you?

I just turned 30.

Okay.

So young.

Yes, you are. So when I was 18, I started to take a product called Xenadren. And it basically at the time, it was like ephedrine, except with some added ingredients in it. But you didn't know, you never knew how much was in anything you were taking. There's no regulation, no testing, no nothing. you know, very dangerous as we know now, but you didn't know at the time. And I mean, that thing, it messed me up pretty damn hard because you could, you know how it is, you could get one pill that's got like 20 times the dose and another one that has nothing in it at the time. And you know that without having companies going the extra mile there, you could put people in harm's way. So, I appreciate people like you that really go And do what you do and do the best you can to ensure we're getting what you say.

Well, the worst thing that I could possibly do right now with my reputation is release a— is release a testosterone-boosting supplement that has a propri— that is a proprietary blend. Oh yeah, mate, like, that would just destroy my reputation. Why would I be— why would I be that stupid to do that? Like, I could— I could easily do that. Yeah, I could have done that to protect my formula, but the amount of backlash that I would get for doing that, it's not worth it. And I don't even want to do that because I want people to know exactly how much of each ingredient is in the product so that they can stack it with what else they're— with all the other shit that they're probably taking on top of it. So it's kind of like I'm 2 steps ahead all the time.

Mm-hmm. I love that. So could you— I would like you to discuss proprietary blends for people that don't know what those are and why they're so negatively viewed upon. It would be great for a breakdown.

Yeah, so it's a sneaky, sneaky way of a supplement company hiding exactly how much of each ingredient is in the product. Okay, so basically, for those listening in, a proprietary blend will be, let's say, something like Strength Matrix proprietary blend, and then it'll have a list of the, the names of each ingredient. Let's say it's got like 5 different ingredient names, but they will not disclose how much of each ingredient is underneath that blend. But what the— what they will say is the total amount of the blend. So they might say 1,000 milligrams proprietary blend of 5 ingredients, but then what they technically could do, they could use 800 milligrams of one ingredient and then they could just skimp on the other ones, right? Like they could just And this is a way for many companies to sort of cheat their way through, basically misleading the market, misleading customers. I find it very deceptive, and I also find it just— well, I'll tell you where the problem lies. The problem lies in that if people are using a proprietary blend and they're sensitive to overdosing on certain minerals. For example, let's say zinc. Like, I'm using zinc in my test booster, but I'm deliberately only using 5 milligrams, which is a baby dose.

If I didn't disclose the amount of zinc in the product, somebody might also be taking a multivitamin.

Yeah.

You know what I mean? And then, then all of a sudden they got 30 milligrams in, in my— let's say I got 30 in mine, taking 30, then they got 60 milligrams a day, and then they've overdosed. And they're wondering why they feel like shit. Well, it's because you've been taking a product that has a proprietary blend.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's dangerous and it is deceptive. I— on a proprietary blend, the order that they're listed in is what is the most, right?

Yeah, I forgot to mention that. Yeah. Yep.

But it could be that the first thing that's listed is damn near all of the consumption, right? You don't know what you're getting then in the other ones or Or, or, I mean, I don't know, it's so sneaky and tricky. If you don't know exactly what you're doing, then it's just, it's super deceptive. And I don't like it either. I agree.

Well, there's a really famous company. I don't know. I don't want to mention their name. But they've done that.

There's a lot of famous companies that have done that. You— but then that's why it's important to read the back of every single label, look at it thoroughly and see exactly what you're taking and see if they've gone through any sort of testing or certification whatsoever because it's so dangerous. So your testosterone booster is going to launch when?

Hopefully by the end of this week. We've got a, we've got a waitlist already, um, but hopefully by the end of this week people will see it on my website. And I will mention one thing, that it's— we're not just selling a supplement, we're actually selling additional resources for guys. So if a guy decides to actually try Peak T He's also going to be getting group Q&A calls with me directly every, every second week of every month. So they're going to be getting bi-weekly group coaching calls or group Q&A calls with me. Then they're also going to be getting my testosterone optimization course that I've built, which is like all about nutrition, sleep, lifestyle, all the things that I recommend to optimize health. And then they're also going to be getting a cheat sheet. Like, it's not, it's not just a product because we know a test booster. Yeah, it can work, but it's only going to work really well when you're stacking it with all the other lifestyle changes and you're getting access to me for the guidance and support. Like, that's really what's going to yield a really beneficial effect on someone's testosterone.

I would I love that you stress that because most people, it's just like, here, take this. And it's— I have the biggest problem with that because it is— you have to always say you've got to make the necessary changes at home. You got to sleep better. You got to lower your stress levels. You got to train. I know it sucks to do all these things, but you have to do it to get results. So thanks for throwing the disclaimers out and for going the extra mile in what you're doing, man. It's appreciated. You do great content. You do really informative stuff. You don't mislead people. You don't fearmonger people. And I love that you just kind of— well, you do it kind of like I do it. So, maybe that's why I like it so much. Yeah.

I appreciate you, man. And I really respect the direction you're going in with your content nowadays. And you've had the privilege of interviewing some really phenomenal guests. And I've actually shared your podcast to a few of my clients that I work with as well. So, keep doing what you're doing as well, Dylan. I really respect that.

I appreciate it. You need to come and see me over here in the US sometime or vice versa would be sweet. But—

I'll have to make my way over to the States. There's not much interest to come to Australia. There's just kangaroos over here.

I have trouble flying more than 3 or 4 hours. So, I can't even imagine the length and the duration. I would lose my shit. But we'll record again. I really enjoy our friendship and this kind of interview. So, I I really take a lot of heart in the people that I get to meet, but you're extra special, bro. So, I appreciate the friendship and the info.

Yeah. I appreciate you having me on, Dylan. And yeah, I wanted to say thanks for all the support as well from your listeners.

Absolutely. Well, we'll link everything in the description for you if you want to say it out loud too where they can get the product and where to follow you and your YouTube And everything like that?

Yeah, sure. So people can search Boost Your Biology on YouTube. That's my YouTube channel. And also now my Instagram name, it's Boost Your Biology on Instagram as well.

Sweet. Awesome. Well, I'll link everything in the description, and I'm glad we got to do this. And we'll have to try to get on more calls and plan some more recordings, my friend.

Done. That sounds good, Dylan. Thanks. Thanks for having me.

You got it, brother. All right, everybody, that wraps up another one. Stay tuned for plenty more to come. Dylan Gemelli signing off.