Transcript of South Beach Sessions - Metta World Peace

You're listening to DraftKings Network. I'm looking forward to this one. This is one of the most interesting characters to come across the sports landscape over the last 20 years. Metta Sandiford-Artest, used to be Metta World Peace, used to be Ron Artest. Thank you for this session of South Beach Sessions West Coastal. Really nice to see you in person.

Yeah, absolutely. It's good to be here. Changed my name to Metta World Peace in 2011. Then when I got remarried after my first marriage, I took my wife's last name, but I still go by Metta World Peace. Okay. All right. But my wife's last name was Sandiford. And obviously my other last name was Artes. She was like, Women should have... She said, Women should have the right to have their last names be taken. I said, You're right. I agree.

My friend Ricky Williams did the same thing. He did Eric Myron. But I didn't introduce you incorrectly, though, did I?

You did, but I would rather met a world piece.

You're a man of many names, though.

I know.

For a while, forgive me for forgetting what the Panda name was when you were in China, but you changed your name legally there, too. Did you not?

No, that was just a story that took its own legs. People just made up stuff. The Pandas friend, actually, my daughter loves pandas, so she loves pandas so much. I said, You know what? I want to be around my kids more. I'm always trying to find a reason to be around them. I launched a brand called The Panda's Friend because my daughter loves pandas. And when the story came out, people said, I changed my name to Pandas friend.

But I didn't actually change my name. But this is the thing with you. There are so many stories out there about you. Lots of stories. So let's start here. What do you like about your reputation and what don't you like about your reputation? People who haven't met you who are just surmising things based on what they think.

I think the great thing about my reputation is being from Queensbridge, the greatest rapper of all time, Nas is from Queensbridge, Mob Deep, Hip-hop from MCAP Shan, Roxan Shantay, myself. We're also the biggest federal housing project in America. When you come from the biggest federal housing project in America, you learn a lot. You're under more scrutiny. A lot of things is happening in these communities. When you can make it out because there's so many traps, violence, weapons, drugs, and when you can navigate your way through that, That says a lot. That's what I love about my career, that I was able... About my life, that I was able to navigate that. Now, on the court, people got a chance to see an emotional side. They got a chance to see that real street side. But when people don't really know me. They know me from playing basketball. They know me from being in survival mode on the court. But nobody really knows me. I got a letter from Princeton, and I say that because in college, you get those visits, five visits, right? Every college is sending you letters. My first year, I was averaging a 60.

That's a D. My freshman year, a 60. I turned it around my senior... Last semester, my senior year, a 95 average, right? People don't really know me. My first major was architecture. People don't really know me. You see what I'm saying? So they know me from the court, but they really... Coaches that coach me, general managers that general manager me, fans. You don't really know me. I'm a philanthropist. I'm trying to do big things in that field. And I say that because I want people to get to know me even more.

A business owner as well. Many businesses.

And yeah, when you think about the businesses I'm involved Involved in one of our companies is called buildups. Com. They just recently raised at a billion valuation. We have a little bit of investors there. Easy Care Link, a nursing staffing platform that we invested in, a buttercloth, a couple of other companies. But the thing is this, in 1999, when we came into the league, we didn't have what they have now. Our whole thing was like, ball till you fall, boom, boom, boom, get the bling, all that stuff. That was our life unless you was like a Michael Jordan or Shaq, you had your head on your shoulders. The majority of us athletes back then did not. We wasn't thinking about generational wealth, infrastructure planning. We wasn't thinking like that back then. We had to catch up. So it was so many different things that we I've been through as athletes. We're being a business owner today. I never thought in a million years that I would be doing what I'm doing now.

Well, when you say, though, that people don't really know you, it's at least in part because you're not the same person now that you were 20 years ago. You may have some of the same core things, but we all saw your growth. We saw you're winning the championship, and the first thing you're doing is bringing attention to mental health by saying, I want to thank specifically my therapist for all the help that I've gotten in this realm. Over the years, we've seen the tough guy become something that was willing publicly to be more vulnerable, to be softer, and to talk about things that usually athletes don't talk about or hadn't before you.

Yeah, we all have a perception, right? So as a tough guy, things that made me tough, I wish I didn't have to go through. Like playing basketball in Far Rockaway as a 12-year-old in Hamels Projects, and at the free throw line, my friend getting hit over the head with an old E 40-ounce bottle because we were playing hard in someone else's neighborhood. Or to having to travel to a game somewhere and having to put the ratchets in your bag just to make sure that nothing goes... The stuff that made me tough that people loved is not what I would want for myself or my son or my children. I wish I did not have to be tough. I wish I could have just been vulnerable the whole time, but I had to because of these different circumstances in a city. When you come from the biggest federal housing project in America, yeah, you got some protection because you're a baller, but at the same time, you become friends with different people. When things happen to your friends, you got to make a decision now. You in or you out. How are you going to navigate that?

So the things that made me tough and fearless is things that I wish I did not have to go through.

Were you indeed fearless? Because the stories of you losing teeth, someone elbows you and you don't care. The stories of somebody breaking a table leg at a game that you're at and killing somebody.

I wasn't at that game, but my friend, he died. The stories are crazy, and they're all pretty terrible.

You're sitting here looking back on them and saying, Yeah, they made me tough, but I wish I could have been vulnerable the whole time.

Yeah, I wish. I wish I didn't have to go through that. I wish before I went to college, my brother didn't do 10 years in jail for drug trafficking before I go to St. John's. I wish Lloyd Newton didn't have to die on a basketball court because we were winning the game and table leg goes through his heart. I wish. I wish Kenny Eto didn't get shot in his groin when he was playing with Lloyd Daniels and Raj Strickland at O'Kill Academy and could have went pro. But those things that made me tough, like I said, is not the persona I wanted to show out there. The persona is really outside of basketball. With basketball, I'm in survival mode. When I was playing, I'm in survival mode. I don't know nothing else. So now you're going to get whoever that is. You're going to get my best emotionally. And people loved it. But for a game that I loved, I was also detrimental. I also self-sabotage. So it was like things that I couldn't really control. I could control, but I didn't know how to control them, if that makes sense. So when I retired, I was able to decompress.

I was able to take some, reflect, decompress, and then get back to things That I always wanted to do.

Let's talk about the entirety of the path, going back to the very beginning. How were things before 13 years old? Because some things happened at 13 that obviously were very hard. But before you became 13 years old, do you remember a childhood that was carefree? How did you get to fearless?

When you take it back to my dad, my dad's from Philly, so I always tell people, Yeah, I grew up in Queens, but I'm a Philly guy. My dad from Philly. My dad also recorded professionally two-on-one. He's a two-on-one boxer. Came in New York through a U-hole. I don't want to tell that story, but he came in the whole story. Got to New York and met my mom, stopped boxing. Then he had me. He had to provide for me. I think as early as 6: 00, I remember being in the trenches. I was suspended in preschool, kindergarten, first grade, all the way to 12th grade. Even in Lassal Academy, I got suspended my first year. For me, it was always some type of trigger. And these triggers were normal to us, natural. If you're in our neighborhood, you got to get to a scuffle, you got to fight it out. You might get bullied one time. Maybe you're on the other side, you're being bullied, you get tired of it. So I can't remember a year where that toughness wasn't growing. In the '80s, that's when the crack epidemic hit. And I didn't know that was the era we were going through until you see the documentaries on it.

And we was in the heart of the city with the biggest everything moving through neighborhood. So from that perspective, we had foreigners coming into our neighborhood trying to set up shop. And as they were setting up shop, then our neighborhood got tired of it. Then we had to push them out by way of activity. We had to get to get to get back control over our neighborhood. Not us. I was young. The older folks had to get back control over our neighborhood. So it's like that type of stuff. So I can't really remember a time where we wasn't on our Ps and Qs.

So Was suspended every year for what? Just fights?

Fights. Mostly fights. I remember one kid jumped in front of me on the lunch line, and I punched him in his face. I was like, That's second grade. How do you develop that type of low tolerance. And I look at people that's hungry. Being hungry in one split second, you can make the wrong decision. You can get divorced. You can get a bad argument with your wife. Oh, it's over. And you didn't eat breakfast. That's a real thing. Hunger, right? And you don't have the five seconds or the five minutes to say, Hold on, let me think about this.

But and you're surrounded by the poverty that is actual hunger all the time.

And it's not like Africa hunger or Honduras hunger. American hunger is a little bit different. We do have homelessness and hunger here in America, for sure. But it's not as bad as third-world countries. But hunger is hunger to the human body. The human body don't know where you're at. It just knows you need to eat. You're stressed today. Oh, you're a little upset. You might want to breathe. This is all happening subconsciously. So that's why people be like, Oh, man, I wish I would have never committed that crime. They get in front of the judge, Oh, man, I wish I would have never did that. I wonder how many of those people actually didn't eat breakfast. It's a silly inquiry, but I'm really interested in how many people, before they committed something that got them in jail, didn't have breakfast.

What would you guess, if you had to guess, how many times were you getting into fights? If you had to put a number on fights until your teen years, what are we looking at?

Maybe three a year, maybe more Sometimes. But some of it could just be talking, arguing back and forth.

But not afraid of fights, right? From an early age, not afraid of them?

Your dad's a boxer. Some of them I was afraid of. Some of them I was afraid of because maybe that guy is bigger. Maybe I'm tall, but I'm not as older as these people. I recall a couple of times being older, being tall, but being bullied, right? And I couldn't quite get off because he got a little older. So at some point in time, you say, Okay, never again. When you say never again, that's to everyone. It don't matter where you're at, who you are, how much you're worth. I take that approach to everybody. It It's because you just don't know where it's coming from. Now, if you bother me, I'm going to go at you. If you bother me, I'm going at you. I'm not going to let you bully me. That's just how I am. Sometimes that's just not the way to move forward in life. You can't move forward with making logical decisions. I want to do business. I want to partner with you. I'm thinking you're against me day one, and that's not the way to move forward in life.

Did you have a temper problem?

For sure. Absolutely. I think the temper problem was... Yeah, I think it was more like not identifying when the threshold is max and capped out. Also, not really not being logical or even... Some issues were not as serious as I made them out to be. And just not being able to identify those issues. Not being able... Everything is... Losing is not everything. Just It's because you lose a game, it doesn't mean it's the end of life, right? And different things like that.

What perspective would you have as a child who's getting into fights, who's surrounded by perpetual turmoil?

Right.

If your normal is not normal for a child.

It's not normal for a child. But then Fran Fa'Chilla said something a long time ago. He said, Metta, his passion is his gift and his curse. Because what got us all these wins in AAU and 15 years old and Minnesink and UDC New York. It was that fire and people loved it.

And tough and greater defense.

Greater defense and not and to play a little offense and we're winning. It doesn't matter that this kid is out of control. You see the kid, for example, Rick Carly. Rick Carly, I respect Rick Carly a lot to this day because he always called you out. He never let nothing slide. And it was annoying at times, right? Like, oh, Rick got to say something again. Oh, boy. Just let it slide. But he would not. Some coaches would. So you remember those things and you appreciate coaches that didn't let things slide.

So I thought your life got bad at 13. I'm wrong about that.

Oh, it was early.

The reason I thought it was bad at 13 is because your parents separate and there's an electrical fire in your house. And so instead of, what is it, 14 or 15 people living in a two or three bedroom house, now it's everyone. So I thought that- Everyone in a one bedroom apartment. Take us back there.

It was a time when my mom and dad separated at 13. They was having problems before that. I think they didn't have a reference point on good relationships also, as I talked to my therapist about that. Then it made me feel more empathy and sympathy for my parents because we didn't know. We just thought, Oh, they separated. They don't love each other. And we were hurt. But as you find out about their life story, you're like, Man, I feel bad for my parents. And now I understand my parents. That is a great gift from therapy. You know what I'm saying?

To find the forgiveness, the compassion. Yes. So that you don't blame them for everything.

Naturally, as human, we're like, Oh, my parents did this. But you don't know what your parents was once 15 years old, too. Who know? Do you know what your parents were going through when they were 12 and 10? If they were starving, were they homeless? Who knows? When they were crying, did they have anybody on their shoulder to lean on? We just don't know. They bring us into this world to make a difference. They sacrificed their body. Women sacrificing their body. Their bodies change. And we don't take that into consideration.

So what is the chaos of this living arrangement? Is it really 15 people?

17 in one bedroom. It was fun, actually. You don't realize you're going through it when you're there. It's like, Oh, okay, we got to put beds. We can't put beds up because if we put the beds up in the room, there's no room. So we got to put mattresses in the living room. We're going to put a twin mattress in In the kitchen. We're going to put one here and we're going to put every bed is on the floor. As kids, in 1993, we were like, Oh, wow. The lights is off. We were playing tag, we were playing little kid games. We had a blast. That was probably the best time we had. I remember that time and it was the most fun because we were all together. Versus being in a three-bed room, which is still crowded, but we didn't have that contact all the time.

Were you in any way prepared in any way for professional basketball, for the transition into the life of professional basketball coming from the things you came from?

I had opportunities to be prepared. I had Mr. Ernest Lodge, who has a A not so positive story out there. But for me, he paid for me to go to high school, and we were moving as professional athletes, as 13 years old, 14 years old, as professional athletes. So I was prepared in many different ways. He also introduced me to one of my agents who are friends now. I wasn't with him the whole time. And then I also had finance people from Wall Street. But when somebody from Wall Street is telling you as a 17-year-old kid, I'm coming straight from Queensbridge, right? Now I'm going to work at Wall Street because I had a job. And when somebody is telling you, Oh, here's how you work stocks, and here's how you do this. Now, my major was going to be architecture. I knew that. But I was only major architecture to build community centers. It wasn't to be a businessman. It wasn't to understand ins and outs and all that stuff. It was only to build community centers. So yes, I had opportunities to be prepared, but my mind was always in the streets. My mind didn't get out the streets until I was like, 24, maybe 25.

Well, you've told the stories of you would drive back all the time just to feel what? The comforts of home? What drives are you making from professional basketball back home to the projects because that feels like home?

Well, the first thing I got to Chicago, I got drafted to Chicago. Now, I'm around police officers, and we associate police officers. We're like, Hey, don't come out right now. That type of stuff. I was never comfortable around that many officers in my life. So now I'm like, Hey, I'm around police, so don't come around me. You know what I'm saying? That was one piece. So I couldn't wait to get out away from police. Secondly, the first thing I did in Chicago was I went to Robert Tittler and Carbina Green because that was the hood, 79 for Hallstatt. And so I would go hang out in those areas just to be around people from the streets. And they all love Mob Deep, and they all knew I was from Queensbury, so I was able to go into these different areas and just vibe. When I was doing that a little too much in Chicago, I didn't even realize where I was at. Now that I know about Chicago, I'm like, whoa, what was I thinking?

As a member of the Chicago Bulls, you're going into the roughest parts of the South Side?

Yeah, definitely. Not to show off or do anything, but just to be a part of the community that I know, which is the streets. But then I would drive back on Fridays, go back to New York, Queensbridge. It would take me 14 hours to drive, sometimes 16 hours, stay, hang out, go back on the block, and leave in 24 hours or 36 hours, sometimes leaving 18 hours, drive back to Chicago, and go to practice, and move on.

So what was the calling there? What is calling you when you say from the streets? And what is it? Is it because your life had gotten to a place with Fame, with money, that felt less authentic or less comfortable? What's calling you back home or calling you to the south side for that matter?

I mean, you know what? Having got this famous line, no matter how much loot I get, I'm staying in the projects. For me, I really took that to heart. I really that. I wasn't a gangster by no means, but you don't have to be a gangster to be considered one of the realest in your neighborhood. It's things you do. For me, it was just never wanting to turn my back. I always told myself, I'm never going to turn my back on the streets. Now, I think you got to be a little selfish in life because if you put yourself in position, how do you stay in position? Being at my mom... My mom is so philanthropic. Will I have a pot of rice for the family? If one of my friends was hungry, twin, or annoyed, or somebody, their mom would do the same thing. We would have to share that rice. We were sharing our corn. We were sharing everything. We got to share. And that's how my mom was. That doesn't prepare you for a generation of wealth planning, right? Because now you go to the NBA, you're doing the same thing. Oh, you need something?

You need something? It's not that we were without a posse. We're taking care of people. And some people got it. They see it differently. What we're doing is what my mom did. We'll do it for anybody, Black, White, Latino. It don't even matter because that's how my mom raised us. If you got, you help. But there's a way to structure that. W2, 511, C3, is ways to structure reaching out to helping others. It's It's a gift. Like I said, it's a gift and the curse. There's a lot of positives that come with wanting to stay authentic, but there are also some things that doesn't really help in athletes, generational wealth planning, especially. Luckily for me, I was able to create and learn, absorb, and create family office from scratch with my own hands. But not everybody has that opportunity.

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I definitely got to credit it to my mom and dad who put me in a psychology session. I was 13 years old, and they put me into counseling. At 13, they said, My mom was like, Boy, you need help. That was the best thing that ever happened to me. I remember my first session. It was on a dime block. We call it the Dine Block in Queensbridge. But one building, it was all apartments, but a couple of the buildings had offices and different things. There was a counseling spot right across the street from Nas block. In that setting, in that class or that session, you had people with autism, maybe cases of schizophrenia. We're all young though. I had a temper. Everybody had different issues. Maybe somebody had a physical disability. I remember the counselor, this white gentleman I got a picture. I forgot his name, but I got his picture. My mom got his picture still to this day. And we would have popcorn. We would cross Vernon, go to River Park. Long Island City is different now. We would just sit down and talk. He was just counseling us. That shaped me because now you can see I was one of the only athletes to be like, Oh, I want to thank my psychiatrist.

That felt normal to me. People was like, Man, you're crazy. You just thank your psychiatrist on TV? I'm like, Yeah, my psychiatrist helped me out. I'm thankful. Why would I not thank her? But she wasn't my psychiatrist. And the thing about that, so she was my psychologist. She called me the next day. Corrected you. And she said, I'm not a psychiatrist. But the reason I didn't correct it, because you say you're on psychiatry and you're taking medicine and sports. Oh, he's crazy. He's on medication. But the reason I didn't say, Oh, she's my psychologist, was because I thought that was even a bigger statement to make sure people have the courage. If you got to help yourself, do it. No, don't back away. Oh, she's not my psychiatrist. She's my psychologist. I don't take medicine. I actually double down on it. But it was not an MD medical doctor.

Why is the counselor reaching you, though? Is it someone who cares? Is it someone who's listening to your feelings?

Yes. You can't always talk to your parents. If your parents... I got a one-year-old right now, 22-year gap, and I want to make more babies. The way I raise my one-year-old is different how I raise my 28-year-old because what we were taught. If your parents, they don't have a reference point and you see how babies are being raised, Some of these practices are not the best practices. You got to listen. I didn't know that children, toddlers, infants were as smart as they are. They just can't talk, but they're absorbing every bit of information. When you think about it like that, even as a parent, even as a new parent, it's like we got to listen to these toddlers and how we raise them. That's the output they're giving to the world. As we let them roam free to make a change, and not even to make a change, to add value to this world.

But this was an adult who was listening to your feelings. Exactly. And when your mom is saying to you, You've got problems, kid, it's not just the fighting, right?

It was the temper. I was always ready to fight. I did get into too many fights.

Have you examined the roots of what was happening now as an adult to the child temper?

I wasn't seeing too many fights. If you see how someone reacts, it's like if I teach my child how to potty train my child. We had an issue. I got a documentary out with a gentleman called Lake the Kid. Well, he was introduced to the street life at 12: 00. Depending on what you're learning, that's who you're going to be. If I see people react only with fighting or, Oh, you want beef? Bung. Oh, wow. I was just playing basketball, and this guy just got shot. Now, what side are you going to be on if you're in that situation? If somebody pulls something out on you, Are you going to run? If somebody attacks you, are you going to go reach for something? Because it's all you learn. That's the thing about when a toddler, a teenager is learning different habits, they're learning in real-time and they're going to implement it in real-time. For me, the counselor was listening to me like, I want to be a math teacher. I wanted to be a math teacher. That was my goal. I always wanted to be a junior high school math teacher. As I was preparing for that, not even pro.

Things were getting in the way, and he was able to keep me straight. Just having somebody to talk to about my own goals in this life, not my parents, my own goals. Just having somebody to vent to was great.

Do you remember what it is that you were feeling or the feeling that you got from fighting? Was there a satisfaction in it? Was there a release?

No, definitely no satisfaction. It was probably more like... I never started a fight. I never said, Hey, let's fight. That was definitely not it. I probably said, Hey, let's go play some basketball. Let's go play some tag, some manhunt. Manhunt is an aggressive game of tag. But it was more like just protecting myself or being insecure. Maybe I don't want to fight. Maybe I don't want to get punched in my face. And I'm so afraid to feel that pain. I got to fight. I got to go at you now. I don't want to get hit because I know you're going to hit me.

But if you're not starting them, if you're getting into fights, but you're not the one starting them, why is mom saying you've got a problem?

Well, yeah, I wasn't starting. For example, kids skipped me on a lunch line, and a big fight happened. Ps1-22, a Greek school in Astoria, Queens, Dipmaros Boulevard. How does that... Somebody skipping you on the lunch line, how does that merit a punch in the face. It really doesn't. That's where you tell the teacher, now, if the teacher is going to listen to you or not, get back in line. Okay, I'll get back in line, but I'm really upset that he skipped me. Or you just handle it yourself. Sometimes when things get out of hand in your neighborhood, you only got a split second to react. Either you're going to get a punch in your face or you're not. So now everything is magnified. Oh, he touched me. Fight. Oh, he wanted to fight? Oh, let's do it after school. You're not thinking about, Oh, hold on. I'd rather be a friend or we could talk about this.

Did it serve you later on, though, to have this as a A lot of reputation, though, someone who was not to be trifled?

No, I don't really like it. There's certain parts of fealessness that I like, but certain parts I don't even care about, honestly. It's not important in my life right Right now, I'm trying to add value. I'm not trying to make a change. I'm trying to add value to this incredible world we live in, with the exception of when things bad happens. But this world is great. The air is free. The beach is right here on Santa Monica. Trees is everywhere. I want to add value. I want to add value, so my mind is not even there anymore.

You're a fun, positive person, correct? That's what you're either are or aspiring to?

Oh, 100. I think a part of me is, and that part was at its purest form when I was younger. And it was great to be able to tap back into that. It was great to be able to tap back into that. And some people see me on the streets, Man, you are a tough player. And I'm like, I got to acknowledge it because they love it. The fans, they love how I play defense.

It's such an interesting thing to hear you say that because I think it's a reputation most people would want. But the way that you had to earn it, you're like...

Yeah, I wish I didn't have to earn it. Sometimes I wish I didn't experience certain things and just had a different perspective in life because of things that made me hustle and don't get tired. Being able to play defense and offense like I played, I mean, I don't know. You got to imagine I was tired. Yeah, I was. Lock somebody up, players coming to me on the other end. Not even today, athletes is not doing that. Name an athlete that was the go-to guy on defense or offense, probably a couple of them.

But I'm thinking if I go to most athletes and say, Hey, you were regarded as tough, that's almost universally embraced.

Yeah, it is universally.

But you know what it took to get there, and you're like, I don't think anybody would have wanted.

You know what? I like the Tim Duncan approach. Tim Duncan is tough. Some people don't even know how strong Tim Duncan is because he don't really show it. Tim Duncan is Ox, Rhino, strong, but he's never going to use it in a way, we all get out of here, young fellow. Or let's fight. Or he's not going to bully you with it. He's going to play basketball and dominate and go home quietly, where people are not even talking about him as one of the top 10 players ever because he's so quiet. But if you played against Tim Duncan, you quickly find out he's a huge problem. And that is the way to use your mind in sports.

Oh, so I see. So you would like it. You'd like the reputation better if perhaps you were viewed as, whether it's the architecture guy building community centers or the math student, if people were actually appreciating what it is that went into you being that good defensively, which takes more than just toughness.

I mean, that's a good point. I wasn't thinking about it like that, but yes. Yes to that. Absolutely. Because it wasn't just ra, ra, ra. It was definitely a lot of math when I was playing basketball. A lot of angles.

You had to be cerebral. You had to be you had to be.

Yeah, definitely.

That's not just all will. That's not just all will and passion. That's part of it. But I would imagine that you'd want some of the credit for the parts of your game that were studied and sophisticated as well.

Yeah, being able to learn a triangle in a month. We know how long it took people. Some people never learned a triangle. Fans was frustrated. So that part came from my math background. I've always used math and angles to perform. I was 260. These guys is 220 I'm chasing. Even if my weight is going this way, 260, his weight is going that way at 215, when we shift, it's going to take me a split second to get back. Well, how was I able to stay in front of certain guys? That's all angles and strategy and different things like that. Being able to move my feet, cutting off angles. Some people were harder, like a Rich Hamilton. A little bit harder. He's a lot of endurance. But it was definitely not just all toughness.

When did you feel like you got or started to get a grip on the temper, on the anger, some control over it so that you could be doing things that were more in line with who it is that you want to present to the public?

Absolutely. Who you want to present to the public, I know, right? Some things you want to do in private, and some things you want to present to the public, right? And it's so true. If I'm home, I could talk street slang, or I'm going back to Queens, Hey, what up, done. If I'm in the public, yeah, but I'd rather... We all have dreams as kids, the American dream, which is lost. We got to get the American dream back. We all have this American dream when we're kids, whether you're poor or rich. And I think... What was your first part of the question?

When did you get a harness on the anger? At what age or what time period were you looking at where you got a little more control over it?

I think '27. It happened in Sacramento. It happened in Sacramento. I just finished my mandated sessions. I got an issue with my ex-wife, who's a really great friend, and happy that she has three of my children. Couldn't have picked it with anybody better. I had mandated sessions. After those sessions in Sacramento, I was like, Man, I feel really good. Because the sessions I had in Indiana, those sessions started in Chicago. But I wasn't ready to let people know I needed help. I'm like, No, I can handle it. So Indiana, I was starting a transition. Then I left Indiana, went to Sacramento, went through the brawl. I was just depressed At the end of that period, at 27, and the next year, I went to Houston. So I carried over those sessions to Houston. And these sessions was, I picked these now. I said, I wanted to continue it. At that point in time, I knew I turned the corner. One thing I didn't want to do, because I knew I had this persona of world peace, helping people. But one thing I didn't want to do was do that too fast. Imagine after the brawl, I come on in a suit.

Hey, how's everybody doing today? I'm in a suit. I love you guys. When the brawl happened, something told me not to do that. Don't wear a suit, Metta. You're not going to be authentic. No one's going to believe you. I said, I'm going to let that happen. Like, grab gradually over time every day. It took me from 2004.

You didn't want to get out there immediately as if you've been changed or contrite or just scrubbed clean by, This brawl has humbled me, and now I'm going to be out here a totally different person to the public because I'm going to be in corporate public relations mode.

I wanted to have it gradually. I wasn't interested in you changing your opinion on me right away, even though I was probably hurt by some of these opinions coming at me from millions of fans and hundreds of media. I have a unique experience from that perspective. But I also said, weather the storm, still be vulnerable, still let people inside your life, and And gradually, you can show who you are on the philanthropic side. And then your life is your life. So I accepted that my life is my life, but I also accepted that I'm doing something even bigger now.

Do you think that media and fans are worse today?

The media is better today. When we first got it. If I came out and said, I need to help, I'm taking medicine, whatever, back in 1999, whatever. Media was more like, You're weak. This guy is weak. Get him off your team. And the fact is, back then, in the locker room, a lot of things were suppressed. Things people didn't see. People were depressed. They didn't know how to manage money, How to grow? What to do? Should I get an entertainment? Should I start rap? What should I do? People had no... A lot of players, they didn't have an understanding. Now, luckily, in the NBA, those problems can be mass because you can get a $100 million coaches contract. You can get a $20 million journal manager. You didn't create a startup. That's just you're in this business. So some people locked out, but not everybody locked out.

When you talk about the time of depression after the brawl, that's because it feels like the world has fallen.

Yeah, that was the worst part. That was the worst time of my life ever.

And how long did that last?

Oh, boy, my goodness. That was a good Four years, three years, because I was becoming great. If you look at that season, we know who was in the league in 2004. You can just look them up. Larry Bird even said I was top 10. And you can look up my stats from when I got defense player of the year, averaging 18 points. One of the go-to guys, Reggie and Jamaine was the guys. But I was emerging. The next year, I come back averaging 24. That's six It's a difference. At that point in time, maybe Kobe was averaging 27, 28, but nobody was just averaging that much. Man, I was a hell of a player. Nine games in, okay, great. Maybe my average drops to 22. Maybe it goes to 25. You know what I'm saying? So at that point in time, when the brawl happened, I'm like, damn it, because it's a game of inches. My whole life predicated on inches. Why do I run so much in the summertime? I need to be an inch better from a cardio perspective than my opponent so I can wear my opponent down. To be in position to be third-team on NBA, I could have easily been on the fourth team, which is no team.

You see what I'm saying? So for me, that was a huge mistake on my part. And then also it was a huge black eye to my career. Even if the gentleman started it, I didn't have a wand that said, Okay, now throw a bear on me. Cameras is positioned here. Now, go. Throw the bear. I did not tell that gentleman to throw a bear. That was his choice. And we're friends today, actually this day, John Green.

Are you? You're friends with him today?

Yes, since 2008, 2007.

That's a nice turn to that story I wouldn't have expected. You are friends with the fan who threw a beer at you, even though I've heard you say that if anyone throws a beer at you, that's pretty much the way that that one's going to go.

Yeah, to this day, nobody's going to let... You can't set that tone. Hey, if somebody throws something at you, no, you can't just let that slide. People ask me that silly question all the time. What would you do today if somebody threw a bear in your face? Oh, you know what? I am going to turn the cheek. No, I'm not. Don't throw nothing in anyone's face. It's wrong.

But you're friends with him?

I'm friends with him, yeah.

Okay, so that took a positive turn at the end.

Took a great turn because we was able to understand each other. Me and him are the only ones that understand that moment. I understood what he was going through. He was going through AA meetings. It was a $50 bet. The reason that happened because his friend, who everybody said, I hit the wrong guy. I think his name was Ryan something. Well, Ryan bet John that, John, you cannot hit Ron Artest. I bet you $50. Well, when I got hit, we saw Ryan go like this. And when Ryan raises his hand, I'm on a table looking that way. I said, Oh, this dude just hit me because there was no game. This is a five-minute break. Horrible job by the rest, by the way. It was supposed to be tech ejection. You're ejected. Nobody got ejected still to this day. I deserve an ejection.

You got a '68 game suspension, or was it '80? It was '82.

82. 82. 82. 82 games suspension. Plus the playoffs. Plus the playoffs. A lot of money. Every deal. Next day, every deal is gone. Money stopped. But the gentleman that bet $50, he bet $50. He was excited because he said, Oh, wow, you really did it. Then when he saw me running at him, you'll see his face change. Oh. So that whole thing was like... But when I was 27, I was so stressed still. I said, You know what? I'm going to reach out to this guy because I just So I reached out to him, and it really took a whole weight off my shoulders.

Tell me more about this. How long after this? So you've been depressed for how long as you are swirling in, I've ruined my life, I've ruined my reputation, and you feel the need to reach out to him?

Yes. It was bothering me because it was like... Because initially, I'm ready to fight. One, I lost all my money, and I didn't even get a solid... I didn't even connect. I got hit on top of that. And then I got jumped on the court by two of other fans that tried to sue me for jumping me. This is unbelievable, right? So The first year, I come back to Indiana. Indiana was very supportive, by the way. Indiana is the greatest organization in the world. Sorry, I got a little link because I love you. I've been through a different experience with Indiana, right? But I was so worried that season. I was so scared to go back to Detroit. I'm not going to lie. I was so scared to go back to Detroit, especially in an Indiana uniform. I was thinking about it. Then I started requesting trades and all. My mind wasn't there. I got traded, go to Sacramento. I told Adleman, who's a great friend, spoke to him a couple of months ago. I said, Coach, I'm about to retire. Please don't play me. I said, I can't make a big deal out of this because if I make a big deal, then media is going to start coming at me again.

I said, So if you can just bring me off the bench and slowly move me to the end of the bench. He said, Ron, no. He said, We're going to go as far as you take us. And that changed me right there. I was 273 pounds. I go from 248. I I was 273. I had to work my way back in the shape. That changed me right there. And then I started to love the game again, playing well in Sacramento, even though they fired Rick Adleman after I take him to the playoff. He was in the last place.

You were so happy that you offered to give your entire salary so that Bonzie Wells would stay there.

For sure. I would have gave my salary to Bonzie. I didn't know that's what he wanted. You want just six million? Just take mine. Don't leave us.

But that's because you were that happy again playing basketball. It's been a minute.

Yeah, been a minute. I don't wear a jewelry. You know what I mean? I'm not a high maintenance guy. So It don't matter. Give it to Bonsi, please. I mean, we almost beat the Spur, took him to game six. So when that happens, when I was 27, I guess, or maybe 28, something happened that time. I said, Let me reach out to John. So I went on Twitter. I put John Green's picture up. I said, Anybody that can find me this guy, I'm going to take you to lunch. I pulled that tweet down because I'm like, Hold on. People are going to think I'm trying to fight John. So when I pulled it down, no, No, sorry. The first time I put his name, if anybody could find me, John Green, I'll take you to lunch. I pulled that tweet down. People thought you were threatening him. Yeah, threaten him. So I said, If anybody could find me this guy, I'll take you to lunch. And this one fan hit me back. He said, I know who this is. This John Green. I'm going to find him for you. He sent me his number. I called the phone and said, Oh, this is the Green residence.

Our number has changed. Back in the day, your number changed, and they tell you the number. They still tell you the number. So I got the number. I called that number and his wife picks up. I said, Hey, I'm Ms. Green. This is Ron Artest. I want to speak to John. She says, Get the F out of here. Stop playing on my line. I said, No, I'm telling you this is Ron Artest. I said, I would like to explain to you first why I would like to speak to your husband. I said, I think we can make a big change in this world because people are trying to also make that a race war, which I don't do that type of stuff. Right? So another reason why I didn't say a lot because I've seen people just trying to find a reason to make it a race war. This is a problem between two men. I told her, I said, I think me and your husband can go on a tour speak to kids, and let people know when you have confrontation, you can work it out. And I thought we could use that opportunity to really stop gun violence and different things because me and him had the biggest problem.

At least people think it's like, Oh, it's the biggest fight in the history of America. If that's the case, oh, let's come together and make a big change.

And that was your idea, no help with that? That was just something that was annoying at you. You didn't like how it felt to you to have what there, an enclosed loop?

Yeah, closed loop. Maybe I don't like certain people, but it doesn't mean... Or maybe certain people don't like me, but it doesn't mean I don't like you. Some people are, This guy's a bad guy, and paint that picture for everyone. For everyone to see. And it's not the fans that I have problems, it's individuals I have problems with. I don't have problems with groups of people, ethnicities. I have problems with individuals. You know what I mean? So from that perspective, I thought that me and him could make a big impact and different things like that.

What would you say if I asked you any time in your life the most joy you had with basketball the happiest you were with basketball? Not necessarily just winning the championship. Obviously, that feels good. But when you're talking about an eight-seated Sacramento team and you're willing to give up your salary just because it feels so good to not be depressed anymore, to have a home, to love basketball again.

Well, that AC team, by the way, when I got to Sacramento in January, we were in 11th place. I said we were going to go to the playoff. Media, not all media, but a lot of media laughed, no way. We went to the playoff. We was the best team. We had the best record in the West. That's how good I was back then. What was the first part of your question?

The happiest period of basketball. It could be any time. It could be St. John's, it can be when you were a kid. Just what you recall as the most joyous time playing.

I missed CIO in New York City, Catholic Youth Athletic League. Catholic Catholic Youth Organization. Those years, being eight years old, 10 years old, the Catholic Youth Organization is one of the best things that happened in New York City. It created so many pros: Malloy, Kenny Anderson, Kenny Smith, Chris Mullen. The list goes on and on. That's all CIO. And those times were so much fun. St. Anne's in Brooklyn, I can go on and on and on.

Business and money complicate things with basketball.

It does a little bit. It can. It depends who you are. It depends who you are. You play basketball, you have this opportunity, you make a ton of money. Wow, you're lucky. You're one of a million. But not everybody thinks like that. Some people are still into themselves authentically. They don't want to care about the money. They're not creating a plan. They don't care about the financial analysis. They don't care. They want to play basketball, have a little fun, and move on. So it just depends, your makeup, your personality type.

What's your relationship with regret? Do you do much of that?

I don't do much regret. I do focus on making an impact. And I think some regret in there. There's regret in there. From the standpoint, I wish I would have done this differently, so I'm going to do this differently. I think a little bit of regret is in there, but I package it up in adding value to this world, adding value to people. We didn't grow up with the respect for women that they have now. It was just a thing back in the days. You might make a song and degrade a woman.

Yeah, hip hop is You are notoriously misogynistic still.

Right. You know what I mean? Those type of things, I wish that I wasn't just loosely singing these lyrics, even though I like the rappers and stuff. I like music. But it creates so much problems for women and how people view. So now we do more stuff in this space. Yeah, I might have made mistakes, but it doesn't mean I can't make a difference.

It sounds like a lot of times along the path, all you are is product of environment, that you are being impacted. Before you find your own voice, before you become the man that you want to be, that's giving positivity everywhere he can give it. You're just noticing, whether it's the environment of where you grew up or I'm just saying the environment in hip hop, and you're just following more than leading.

Absolutely, man. I'm definitely a follower. I can say I'm a leader, but your actions show that you're a follower, and your actions show that you've been influenced. Even if you're not a follower, you could have been influenced, and you don't even know you're a follower. Sometimes I'm like, Oh, I identify it, and I say, Okay, I need to be more... I'm not always trying to be like the guy, but I also not trying to follow everybody.

It's so interesting having talked to Mike Tyson as one example, where there are pieces of how he became who he became, that because it's how people identify him, I won't say that there's shame involved, but it's not something that he wants near him or to talk about. And so it's just interesting to have someone like you who has something that would be in a masculine, physical sport, be something that most people would be proud of. You're probably tired of people coming to you and saying, Tell me the story about this time that you ran into this guy, or had confrontation, especially when you're trying to be sunshine.

Right. I have some standard responses to people now because some people love it. When you ran it to the stands, that was the greatest day in my life. I'm like, Dude, that was a horrible day for me. But, yeah, I tell you- What are the standard responses?

They want to talk to you about the fight. That one's probably annoying to you by now, right? If I could press a button and erase you ever having a conversation about that ever again, would you press that button? Ever having that conversation with anybody again?

Yeah, I would.

Just to be done with it because it was a snapshot in your life. It's a moment.

It definitely was a moment. It's not who you are. It was dragged. It was a big moment. But it's I was like, yeah, definitely. Even in that moment, I was meditating on the Scarring's Tale. It was a big mess. I started, it was a big mess. I realized I understand why Mr. Stern did what he did. It was a big mess. It was law It's all over that thing ready to happen. I could have sued, they could have sued. But for me, I just didn't grow up like that, suing people or thinking about suing. I handle things differently. But it was a big mess. It was only a moment, but it was such a big moment where people still get excited about it to today.

Yeah, that must get weary, right? You endure it, but when you say, What are the standard Is it always about that? Because I was speaking more, your career is framed by will.

Yes.

It is fearlessness.

That's true, too. It's not something- That's also true.

But most people would aspire to fearlessness and would think it a noble trait.

When I'm playing basketball, I'm digging deep. I'm in the fourth quarter. I got pain in my thighs. The lactic acid is building up. The synovial fluid is stagnant. I'm pushing through that.

You're at the limits of the human body.

Yeah, at the limits. Always at the limits because of how I played. And then I got to go and score on the other end with no legs. It's just like, I don't mind Whatever comes with this chest gets exposed. Whatever is going to happen to my body is not important. What's important is not giving up mentally. And to tap into that, and people played against me. They can say what they want. They can I was dirty. I was this, but I played with five fouls a lot. I was able to get five fouls and not foul out. Coach had total confidence in me, four fouls.

Do you know the number of times you fouled out in your career?

I don't know. It wasn't a lot. I don't know. It wasn't a lot.

Did you run into a lot of opponents or any opponents that you would say, I feel like this person is tougher than me?

There's definitely some players that I agree that probably was a little bit tougher. Like Kobe. Maybe if I would have got information that he received from his dad overseas. So that could be it also. But yeah, I think Kobe was definitely a guy that was tougher.

Derek Fischer and Rick Fox have talked about early on in their Lakers tenures, Kobe challenging them until they were willing to fight because he wanted to challenge them until they were willing to fight. He's a tough guy. Is that something that you ran into at all with him?

Oh, yeah. Kobe was ready for that just naturally. His natural instinct is to be ready for anything. It's really impressive to see. So if you want to fight Kobe, he's not scared. He expected it. You're probably not going to do nothing. He's not even worried. It was really impressive to see. And he also will take that and use it and destroy you on the other end. And Yeah, maybe he didn't punch you in your face, but you feel hurt. He gave you 50.

Would have hurt less if he had just punched me in the face.

Yeah, maybe he just punched me in the face.

Is there a peer that you admired more than any other because of whatever your standards are in measuring excellence?

I think Tim Duncan is somebody I admired because he was tough. He never bullied anybody. He never back down. He won, and he did it with focus. I know it was hard. It had to be hard because to not get emotional, that's incredible to me. We've seen Tim Duncan emotional one time. We probably all know the time.

He missed a bunny in the finals. Okay, great.

He probably jumped up. Maybe he took a hop.

Oh, you're talking about the shot that he made after... Which time are you talking about?

You see what I'm saying? We know. We all know.

I'm saying everyone's got the story of the one time they saw Tim Duncan emotional.

Exactly. It's not many times.

What an interesting thing for you to admire, though. So you don't like that your emotion was so out there that people can make their assessments about who you are, whereas he was a stoic.

It depends. So if you got the personality type where your emotion, happy or sad, is going to throw off your balance because the body's not thinking about it like that. The body's saying you're emotional. So if I'm really happy, yes. If somebody pushes me on the court, I might punch them in the face. If I'm really sad, like, Oh, my goodness, somebody pushed me on the court, I can give that same reaction. You see what I'm saying? Now, it's different type of body types or DNA types. Somebody might be like, Yes, I just dunked on them. Yes. And then they push that guy. And that guy is like, Yo, O'Tani, when he got hit in the back with the baseball, he was like, All right, I'm good. Told his bench, Don't worry about it. That's incredible to me. I would have went for a bet.

So you admire people who can control their emotions and circumstances. Absolutely. You think that was a weakness of yours?

That was a huge weakness. Absolutely. And that's why I started to talk about therapy, and people would call me weak, but I was actually becoming stronger. When I started to talk about therapy and actually did the sessions, yeah, you might not got the ra-ra. I had one incident after I changed my name to Metta World Peace, which is super unfortunate. I blame James Harden for it, actually. I'm like, Damn, James.

You wanted to have no incidents after you changed your name to Metta World Peace?

No incidents. Not under Metta World Peace.

And so James Harden. We're blaming James Harden because he soiled this.

He's a friend. He's a good guy. I love James. I was like, Good grief. I just changed my name to Metta. Get away from me. That's a perfect example. So I'm playing well against OKC. I got to have 16 in the first half of that game, by the way. Look at those highlights, okay? I was cooking them. So I got about three dunks. I don't dunk, typically. So now I'm like, Oh, wow. I caught a dunk today. Oh, another dunk. I get my third dunk. I'm super excited. Yeah, Laker fan. Let's go. Let's go. Then James takes a U-turn, pushes me in my back, which is really unexpected. I didn't think it was him. I thought it was like, he Baca because me and Ibaka, not that we don't like each other. We're just physical. So I thought it was him or Perkins or somebody. So anyway, when he pushed me, my reaction was like, Get up off me. Get up off me. That's what I'm saying about if you look at Michael Jordan. Michael Jordan might dunk on you. Yes, he's not going to take it over the limit unless you come at him.

Michael Jordan is a little bit sea-cycle. He's not going back down. You look at a guy like even Shaq, Shaq could dunk on you, hang on the realm, but he's not going to get too out of control unless you come at him. Some people with that emotion can get them out of character, and you have no balance. And that's what I realized about myself.

And you're saying that you realized the realization that you could at least partially harness your anger and temper was when you chose to go to therapy versus it being mandated.

Absolutely. I mean, I wish that I could hit hit a big three or dunk and be like, Yeah, let's go. But I couldn't raise my level that high. So if you watch in Sacramento, you'll watch my... Even when I hit the three against the Lakers, I had my therapist come from Houston that morning. So when I hit that three, there was no celebration. It was a calm, just a kiss of the crowd. It was nothing. And that whole series, I had big games that series, that whole play-off run. But it was all about, succeed, keep your level here, keep your level here, keep your level here. Keep your level here. Keep your level here. Even if I'm too happy, too excited, it's an uncontrollable level, if that makes sense for me.

Well, for you, right? Yeah, for me. And it's one of the reasons because I don't think anybody, everybody knows how good Tim Duncan was, but I don't think anybody would say Tim Duncan was tougher than you. You have the reputation of being somebody who is tougher than other tough people.

Right.

But that's not because of that fight.

Right. No, not because of the fight. It was other things that happened throughout my career, not giving up, getting better in the summertime. That's what you played.

You cared deeply about defense. You took great pride in doing little things that other people didn't care to do.

Absolutely. Every deny, every box out, every close out, I'm going to chop my feet, everything on defense, things you don't see that the coach told me to do, I was doing.

Did you get to retire the way that you wanted to?

No way. I wanted to retire with showing the way I lock people up on defense. It was like so many things. It's a way to get it done. You play well, you build relationships and different things. So I didn't get a chance to do a lot of the corporate stuff that I wanted to do that was in my mind, I'm going to be great. I'm going to do it just like this. I'm going to have a career maybe like Mike or maybe like Tim Duncan. And then it changes. So I had to get it back. But yeah, I didn't retire how I wanted to. I never really officially retired because of that reason. Maybe I just started saying I'm retired two, three years ago, but no, I did not retire how I wanted to.

When you said you were going through a four-year period of depression, you don't feel like your career ever got back to where it was after that, right? You believe that was an incident that was so heavy on you that it derailed who it is you would become, right?

Yeah, it got the best of me. I was still pretty good, like an average 20 in Sacramento. In Houston, you could watch the Lakers series. I was really good. That was five years later.

Kobe was 6 for 24 in the game that you won game seven.

You won- Oh, right. And in the Lakers, yeah, I was really good.

At the Lakers, the reason they won the Championship is because you were better than Boston in that game seven and at the end of that game.

Yeah. I was really good that year. But when you're playing with Kobe, yeah, you can average 20, but I average seven points. But I was not a seven-point scorer. I can really played. But I think... I forget the first part of your question.

And so did I. I forgot the first part of my question as well because I was talking about the four-year period of when it is that you were broken and that your career ended up getting... That you feel your career ends up getting derailed right there.

Oh, yeah. I was still playing well. When I got to Sacramento, I was 270. I was planning to retire. I actually put in my papers. I was actually talking to the lead, and they were like, some people were trying to say, Well, I said, No, send me my papers. I actually, I can't remember how I got the papers or I can't remember what email I got or something, but I was at the step of just signing and that's it, moving on with my pursuing architecture, which is my first major. But I never got back. In Houston, I'm not going to say, in Houston, mentally and physically, I I had my best. I was really good. I was 29. But where I was the year before that, you're talking about somebody that was holding people to seven, five, and destroying them on the other end. They had no chance. Maybe a few people, like LeBron was really good. Lebron was really good. First year.

It didn't take him long.

Not long at all.

What would you say that you're proudest of?

I'm I'm proud of my NBA Citizenship Award. That's how I'm most proud of my career. That was big. That's a big turnaround. And that took work. And the writer, I got the award. David actually was happy I got the award. I think David was there that day, actually. I got the award. No, he wasn't there. I was hoping he was there, but he did give me my ring.

That would have been amazing. David Stern being there for your Citizenship Award.

That would have been great. The gentleman that gave it to me, this is bad. I know his name. I got to see his picture. I wish I had my phone. You know him. The gentleman that presented me with the award. Oh, man, this is so bad.

We'll find it here.

Yeah, we'll find it. Hold on a second.

No, that's all right. We'll find it. But tell me about the- Asian gentleman. Tell me about the Citizenship Award.

It's great. I mean, it's everything that I wanted to do in my life. The first thing I said in Rooky Transition, I was a little too aggressive. Mr. Stern was there. Maybe Adam Silver was there, too, because he was a protege. My first thing was, I see we doing NBA Cares. This is just when NBA Cares launched. I was saying, Baren Davis here, Elton Brand here. And I was like, What are we doing? I said, I know we're doing NBA Cares, but what are we doing for the hood? That was my first introduction to Mr. Steiner in front of him.

But then you go, I mean, what a great moment of pride and what an unexpected answer that you would go through the whole journey, the whole ordeal, and that the thing you would be proudest of as a defensive player of the year, as a champion, would be that, no, I got the punctuation right on I rehab that one moment wasn't going to be who defines me. And if you want to make it one moment, how about you make it about me getting this award instead of the other moment?

It's a big award. It's just like an MVP. Not many people got that award. And people that do a lot of philanthropy. And I respect the writers and the league because through my worst time, I was still doing philanthropy, but people didn't see it. And even right now, I'm on the board of the UCLA Psychiatric Award, which is the greatest thing I've ever done in my life. I was so honored when they asked me to be on the board of the Psych ward. I'm like, What? Hold on. Is this one of those things where you just for the day? It was a real thing in seven years or six years now, and it shows the commitment I have to mental health, improving the wellness of people in this country.

How did that all happen? Tell me how that happened with the UCLA Board of Directors hand, what it means to you, because you have been an advocate. You've been out in front on this long before DeMar DeRosen and Kevin Love were doing this.

You were somebody who was advocating on behalf of mental health, at least in part because you saw Dennis Rodman do it. Dennis inspired me. The interview he had with Oprah, that's where I fell in love with Dennis. It wasn't because all the other stuff. Me and Dennis got different games with the exception of our endurance. He spilled his heart and nobody heard him, which got to me. I'm like, People are still talking about how crazy Dennis is or this. Did you not see the Oprah interview. He was molested. Parents didn't want him. He moved in with somebody else. They didn't want him. This guy had every reason to fail in life. And when he made it, finance attacks your emotions. That's the thing people don't understand about money, whether you're an athlete or a founder that exited. We know a story where founders commit suicide so much money. They don't know what to do. Money taps into your emotions. And it's not that you're a bad person. It's not that you're a bad person, it's your experience in life. You see, and when I saw that story with Dennis, it made me just love him more.

It made me love him and I understood him. And I was going through some stuff too different, but I was also going through some stuff. So that's the type of stuff.

That's how I look at You wore 91 because of that, correct? Yes, absolutely. Because of how it spoke to you, because of how his voice reached through the television and made forced empathy upon you.

Absolutely. I wore 91. Actually, the Bulls were my favorite players, favorite team growing up, even though I hate when they beat the Knicks. I did not want the Bulls being the Knicks. But after the Knicks, I left the Bulls. So I wore Michael Jordan's number. I got defensive player of the year, Michael Jordan's jersey, and I was third. I did my best work in Michael Jordan's jersey. I love Michael Jordan, even though I accidentally broke his in a pickup game. And then Dennis was going to be next. So I ironically get into a fight in Detroit in Dennis Robin's jersey. I did not plan this.

I don't know the story of you breaking Michael Jordan's ribs.

It was out there. I didn't put it out there. Gentlemen, Sam Smith, Chicago Tribune. He put it out there. So then it got out there. So now I'll just talk about it. But it wasn't me bragging about it.

And it's still not you bragging about it.

It's not bragging about it. It's out there. I'm a fan. I wore number 23 because of Michael. I love Michael. He was the only former player. He was the only player that called me during the brawl. Besides maybe Reggie Miller because we were teammates. But Michael Jordan was the only one that called me and to comfort me. It was incredible. What did he say? He said, You're going to be okay. Just hang in there. I couldn't believe it. Michael Jordan.

But how did you break his ribs?

I don't know the story. It was a pickup game. In a pickup game, we know Michael Jordan is a tough player. I was a years old, and I don't think Michael knew how strong I was. So he was pulsing up everybody else that was there, always pros. But when it came to me, it was not going to be that easy. And I don't think he understood that. And so we were just tussling, jocking for a position, and I don't move. So I accidentally... He ran into... It wasn't like a fight. Sam said, I punched him. Can you believe that? In Chicago Tribune, run on our test, punched Michael Jordan, breaks his ribs. I almost died. I literally almost died. I can't believe he wrote that story. It was really disrespectful. I can't believe he reported that. That did not happen. Even Jordan called me after that and said, It's okay. It was an accident. I'm not going to fight like with Jordan. But it was a really aggressive pickup game. Extremely aggressive.

Did you ever run into anybody your size or roughly your size who had more strength than you?

The only one in my position was LeBron. He's faster. That was the thing with LeBron.

He's just bigger, right? I mean, he's 6'9, and he weighs more than you, too.

Well, he didn't weigh more than me. Well, some people, it depends the year.

I mean, he was like, he was 280 at one point, no matter what he was saying his weight was.

I also played at 275. So the weight, it wasn't that. Well, LeBron, it was his speed and his spring. So you got somebody just as strong, even if he's 5% less strong than me, he's way faster and jumps way higher. That's a whole nother dynamic.

Tell me some stuff about here, the other projects that you're involved in, not just the test management group, but DNA, Doing Nothing Average, your agency, the efforts that you're making in business to stay connected.

Absolutely. It's been exciting. Doing Nothing Average is one of our portfolio companies. It's a sports agency. Kolby Shinto is the founder, female agent. Supported her, signed to her. But I remember working with her almost fresh out of college. We just grew a bond, and we started this journey on becoming a sports agent. Then four years later, she became an agent. We supported her, and we still do to this day. It's one of our favorite companies, and she's an up and coming agent, and she loves the game. So, yeah, that's doing nothing average. It's super exciting.

And the Artest Management Group?

Artest Management Group is a holding company. It's a consultant firm now. I launched it 10 years ago as a C-corp. I knew what I wanted to do, but I didn't know how I was going to get there, honestly, 10 years ago. But yeah, it's a holding company. We have 40 companies in the portfolio now. Build Ops is one of them, which is a lot of people who know about the company in the private equity world. Buttercloth is one. Easy Care Link, we have others in the pipeline. It was really hard in the beginning, but I just decided not to sway. I decided to stay in this field of private equity and get there. It's been around for 10 years, and we're going to try to be around for another 10 years.

Are you proud of yourself there? Is the math kid in you proud on some of the things that he's been able to do away from basketball that don't have much of anything else to do with basketball?

It has nothing to do with basketball. No, I was actually forced to do this because I wasn't getting a lot of opportunities. Every coaching job, everything. I was forced to get into this field, but I'm definitely proud. It's not easy. You're going up against a Michael Jordans of this space. You're going up against the Tim Duncans and the Michael Jordans of finance with no background. Do you stop and give up or do you keep going? My makeup, obviously, we know it's not to give up. It's not to give up.

There's not to give up in this DNA or that DNA. Metta, thank you. Always a pleasure talking to you. And it has been really wonderful to see your evolution, your growth, and your embracing of change and challenges in order to stay positive, sir.

It's been great being on your show. I also want to tell people, in 2028, I'm running as an independent. We already decided we're going forward. We're running as an independent.

Tell us. Give us more. Is this something that you've announced before? Or are you announcing right here?

We announced it on the shop, so I'm super excited about it. I'm super excited about the American dream. I've always been a kid that had an American dream. As we know, big on mental health and the well-being of others. It's not just about the negative sides. Sometimes there's a positive message that you can get across and to have the opportunity to build a firm in a way where we can administrate. We also do fund administration, a lot of stuff in our firm, but in a way we can manage this, it's just incredible. I can't believe where I'm at in my life. The American dream is live and well, and we're going to continue to try to add value. I'm super excited about 2028. We know I'm competitive, so we know we don't have to worry about that with any human being that's walking the face of this Earth. I'm super excited about it.

Thank you, Metta. Thank you for the time you gave, and thank you for sharing all of the story and the vulnerability us.

Thank you.