Transcript of Hour 1: The Skipworth(y) Pick (feat. David Samson) New

This is the Dan Lebatard Show with the Stugatz Podcast.

This episode of the Dan Lebatard Show is presented by DraftKings. DraftKings, the crown is yours.

So we're having fun. It's a big day. It's a busy day. And there's a lot going on because this thing that we're doing, draft special tonight, a race for Super Zagactos, is going to be the best draft coverage you will find anywhere if you don't care about the draft. In ways that are too serious because we will have good information for you. It will be in there. People more informed than us. I'm not going to speak for Trista and Mike, but more— or Zazz on this matter, because I think you three really know college football. And so you will be excited tonight and you will help us fill this out. But I cannot tell you about, you know, the offensive guard at Georgia. And I'm not going to pretend like I can. David Sampson is pissed off, though. We're about to have fun all day today. And David Sampson's mad because we can't get his audio right, or he can't get his audio right, and he's blaming us because he's always on time and he's ready and he's particular and he can be a perfectionist. And so, uh, what is happening right now with his audio?

Because I want to talk to him about this Vrabel story.

We can hear him, he can't hear us. So we keep doing the thing of like, maybe come out, come back in, are you got the right headphones selected? And he thinks it's on our end, and we're pretty convinced it's on him.

That's always the go-to, right? It's not working.

Hey, why don't you come out and come back in and then check your headphones, make sure the right All right, so just keep him up there and he'll get in on the conversation when he can. I wanted to start in the place because we were talking during the break about just iconic Marlins home runs, and I know that we're out of the local hour now, and I do want to and will get to this Freible story, uh, but I did want to finish the conversation that we were having because I'm sitting here celebrating Chandler Simpson of my beloved Rays and the way that he just hits the ball on the ground and runs all over the place. as the entire sport has gone to exit velocity and lift. And we started talking about Marlins home runs and people least likely to hit a Marlins home run. And somebody here nominated Dee Gordon for the most iconic home run in Marlins history. That's a thing that happened. That's a thing that'll make David Sampson, that robot, emotional because, uh, he suffered, hurt with the death of Jose Fernandez for ways that extended beyond baseball. The Dee Gordon home run, was it the first pitch after he died?

A non- —home run hitter. It was the first at-bat though.

Yeah, the first at-bat, the first pitch, Dee Gordon stood up there righty to honor Jose Fernandez and was taking the pitch no matter what because he's a lefty. And then he came around and on the left side, uh, I mean, he jacked it to the upper deck.

Yeah, a guy who never hits home runs after their beloved teammate had just died, the ace of the staff. Uh, just as shocking a death as a sports team will ever see for an individual. Uh, the next guy up is not a home run hitter. Uh, who nominated that though? Because That was a home run that— what you're talking about there is all emotion, no stakes. No stakes on that home run.

The entire dugout was hysterical crying as he rounded the bases. It was really something, man.

But so that's the most emotional home run. Does that then make it the most iconic home run?

No, no, not at all.

Well, we have a list and it should settle the debate. And with the former Marlins team president here, really interested in his feedback to this list. The greatest home runs in Miami Marlins franchise history. O-L-I, Andrés Galarraga goes upper deck.

Farthest home run in pro player stadium history.

Got you on your heels. Uh, yes, that's an opponent. He did not play for the Marlins, by the way. Just two nights ago, I saw Giancarlo Stanton, uh, hit a home run over the Fenway wall. I've never seen a human being hit the ball as far as he did. It just, it just went— I've, I've, I'm saying, I know this is routine now, and I know Ohtani hits the ball out of stadiums, What he did hitting a park out, hitting a ball out of Fenway Park. I've never seen someone hit a ball like that.

When it went out of view, it was still ascending. Yeah.

Was it still on the way up when it went over the wall? Yeah.

It didn't land on the street behind the stadium. It landed like several blocks away.

It's awesome. Also, OLI. Stanton sets a franchise record. Also, OLI. José Fernández starts a bench-clearing brawl with a home run.

Yep. He spit on third base.

Spit on third base. Brian McCann. I spit on third base.

And final OLI. Ken Griffey Jr.'s 600th home run.

That's a good baseball horror movie sort of franchise. I spit on third base. That's what José Fernández did.

Number 5, Jeremy Hermida's first at-bat.

Oh, grand slam! That can't be number 5.

It can't be. Yes, it can be.

We were so seated. He was the prospect.

I was there for that. That cannot be. I waited through a rain delay for that.

That cannot be in your top 5. You don't have a legitimate franchise. You're a— no, no.

Number 4, Paul LaDuca hits a home run.

Yes!

In the middle of a game that he just joined in progress after being acquired. A pinch-hit home run in his first ABS appearance.

Yes! He got off the plane, Dan, the game already started. He came right to the clubhouse and he hit a home run.

I sat next to Paul LaDuca at Barstool for 2 years. I didn't know he even played for the Marlins.

Really?

You thought he was just a horse racing expert?

Well, I knew he played baseball. I just didn't really care where, like, I didn't look into it. Yeah.

Oh, I'm just seeing right here. I missed an OLI. Stanton breaks a video board. So number 3, Miguel Cabrera goes, yo.

Good placement. Good placement.

Roger Clemens. That's got to be number 1.

No, no, it's not. Cabrera opposite field as a rookie. Nope, it's not number 1.

Number 2, Alex Gonzalez walk-off.

That's number 1. No, I was telling you, I was responsible for that.

They don't win the World Series if he doesn't hit that home run. Chris was responsible. Potentially they win the World Series if he doesn't hit that home run. Potentially. Eventually they went out 2 games to 1. I was a big one. Yes. Which is why it's number 2. I can't believe you're getting— argue— I'm getting arguments here. I'm acknowledging it's one of the biggest home runs in franchise history and on a list that had Jeremy Hermeda on it. I mean, it was a walk-off. So it was a grand slam in his first at-bat. You never see those. All right. And number 1, it is the Dee Gordon one. You got to be on Instagram for this, but that thing comes up all the time on IG. The emotion attached to it. It was just a beautiful moment and possibly served up by Bartolo Colombo. Two O.L.I.s we forgot: Emilio Bonifacio's opening day inside the parker and Heesop Choi's opening day home run in 2005.

Good one. I'm not giving that one the noise.

Dave, how is that list? David, the name of the podcast is Nothing Personal. We will get to this very big story in a second. Tell me what you have here on the list that they just put together.

I don't like the Stanton video board one because that was costly.

How much did it cost you? How much did it cost you?

5 figures more than the Vrabel-Russini photographs. The Alex Gonzalez walk-off. Zazz, I have no idea how people don't understand this. Without that home run, we cannot win the World Series.

Of course, that's why. Period.

Number one, because, I mean, you can't win the World Series without Josh Beckett.

If I don't go back to my seat there, they don't get that home run.

But here's the thing. This is why your guys are underestimating what Cabrera did going opposite field off Clemens, standing over Ovation Clemens in the opposing ballpark. Standing ovation Clemens.

That's the coolest home run. He fooled us though. He fooled us. No, no, but I—

but the thing about that home run is I remember the pitches before it because he was throwing it. He was throwing under his chin. I don't remember the pitches before Alex Gonzalez's home run.

Most badass home run, it's Miguel Cabrera, and that includes a dude that broke a video board. And his legacy is there's like this little netting in front of the, the video board now to ensure no one else has to pay $5,000.

Can't believe Dontrelle didn't make the list.

One of my worst moments in baseball was going to Jeremy Hermeda after his— in his first game. Mike, you had the memory right in that, uh, it was a, it was a grand slam pinch hit, first at bat. It was unheard of. And we were in the clubhouse at Pro Player right after the game, and I said to him, the rest of your career is downhill from here. And he and I still talk about it because it turns out he didn't end up having a good career, and it was way downhill, and he never became what we thought he would become. He's an amazing an amazing father and husband and just a great guy.

He probably doesn't smile at the memory like you do of like, oh no, he did not pan out the way.

Oh, that's— listen, he's— oh, he's come to terms with it. There's a ton of talented players who don't get careers in sports, who have talent beyond belief. Jeremy Hermita, we thought was Ken Griffey. We— that's the swing. We just— we were all in on Hermita. He hits the Grand Slam. We think everything's great. GM, manager, everyone's jumping for joy. And I'm saying, hey, kid, that's as good as it's going to get.

David, was he the top prospect you ever had? No, no.

But he would certainly— I would say Jelic was a better prospect in terms of what we thought and what we were told he would become. And he's become it. Stanton, we knew, would be a behemoth. So Hermita, though, we expected for sure. There's some guys you draft in the first round, like we drafted that catcher who stinks and I forgot his name right now. A first round pick, top 10 pick. He never made it. Oh, God. Anyway, just another wasted draft pick. And we sort of thought when we took him, like, ooh, that one may not work out very well.

And it didn't. When it comes to opponent home runs, does Galarraga rank higher for you than Bonds, McGuire, some of those home runs from opponents?

No, Colorado does not rank higher than— what was Colorado before? Barry Bonds. We gave strict instructions that we should not pitch to Barry Bonds when we faced him.

That's what I remember. What I remember— home run. Yeah, I remember Bonds hitting a home run when the instruction from everyone in the organization was do not give him anything to hit. Nothing. He is to walk every time.

If I had known now what I've known then, what I know now, we would have just put up the 4 every time. It really would have made sense. Bases loaded, doesn't matter. When he was at the height of hitting and steroids and everything like that, it just made no sense to ever pitch to him, ever. And yet we have the instruction, do not pitch to him. And I believe, Dan, and there's so many games to look back, I think it was extra innings when, when he hit.

Well, I think it was a broken bat too. I think the bat broke. Yeah. Wasn't there a broken bat home run from Bonds to right field?

I vividly remember sitting down the first baseline and seeing Barry Bonds hit a broken bat.

Are we just now telling old stories? Are we now just telling—

sorry, are we— sorry. How are you, Trista? Hey, Juju, how we doing?

Well, David, I, I DM'd you back and I've been left on read, and so I've got a little bit of a bone to pick. Yeah, check the Twitter.

Yeah, it's real. Trista, we have a major issue right now. Did you—

have you been sending out the DMs that you were hosting a podcast? Did you— did you text me?

Oh, look at that.

I did. When? When was that?

Was that today? That is Monday at 11:06. Hi, this is David Samson. Have a great week. See you soon.

You have the wrong number.

Do I really? You have to have the wrong number. It says read Monday. I don't have— you read it, by the way. Who the hell has read receipts? I— not me.

Minor penalty, 2 minutes delay of show.

Sorry, I deserve Wow.

Watching a broken bat home run from Barry Bonds against the Marlins. And it's not even like, let me check the bat, see if it's broken. This bat is shattered.

It's shattered.

And the ball went into the first row. David, let me close the loop for you.

The organization was saying, don't pitch to him.

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I went in the margins. I'm like, I'm like your Moneyball of sex. I'm basically Scott Haderberg. Lot of walks.

Stugatz. Lot of walks, but I'm on base.

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This is the Dan Levatar Show with the Stugatz.

David, it was the 6th pick in 2008, Kyle Skipworth. Oh yeah. That's him.

What a great name for a draft pick you missed on. Skipworth.

I never thought of it that way. We were told he was going to be good.

Well, right there, that's how that works.

That's how all— but it's amazing. Tonight you're going to do it. You're going to have a draft party and everyone's going to be like, oh, we're getting the best guy ever. I hope he falls to me. It'd be the coolest thing if he does. And then he's going to suck.

Do you fire a scout? Do you fire a scout right there when he busts?

No, because it's hard to ever pin down. We would keep track. Track of who was scouting which player because I was to evaluate and give bonuses. But no, you get more than one shot. It's hard to hit it. You want to hit it right. But our guy Jim Fleming and Stan Meek were the best in the business. We had more great draft picks than most other teams. So overall, we were happy.

But man, Skipworth, did he just say you guys didn't give him an A for you got to hit it hard, you got to hit it right? Uh, I want to go to this Freible story in a second, but before I do that, I want to bring up something that happened with Juju here, uh, earlier in the show. He said something that I have not heard before. I don't know whether he was referring to Ty Simpson or someone else. Oh no, it was Jalen Hurts. He was saying he's a Crimson Tide. That sounds weird to me. I don't ever call a player a Crimson Tide. Do you? Like, I— it's not something I had even considered.

The Heat is the most difficult one out of all of these.

No, but Heat, Jazz, Mammoth, whatever. I understand that it's not plural, but I've never referred to an Alabama player as a Crimson Tide. Have you? Has anyone here—

right, I see him put on the elephant suit, so I don't even—

who knows? Is that just plural and singular, or am I saying something like— Juju said that as if it's a common thing. It's not a common thing, correct? You refer to Jalen Hurts— no one refers to him as a Crimson Tide, correct?

Nah, not at all. Another reason to go Sooner here. Checkmate.

I should have gone Sooner to Vrabel. So David Sampson, uh, Nothing Personal is the name of the podcast, and he attacks a bunch of different things that no one else is attacking. And there's a lot here that I do actually want to talk about, even though I'm compromised here emotionally, at least in part, because at the center of one of these terrible scandals that nobody wants— them, their family, their kids— I've got somebody who I care about who, you know, must be feeling pretty terrible right now, and I don't want to make any of this worse, okay? But this went from not being news at all, being gossip at the start, because in my history, paid-for photos are not news, okay? So just by by itself. Yeah, Page Six and the New York Post and new journalism and everything else, but paid-for photos are not news. And you may have noticed, Zaslav, that the mainstream news did not at the beginning cover any of this anywhere. So it became something that gathered all manner of fire in the place that it does these days, the internet, where anybody who exists is easy to dunk on.

And when the entire internet is dunking on somebody, then everyone's talking about a story, and it's story that's not in the mainstream press somehow, that no one is covering, until the participants start talking. Because once you have their voice attached to this, then it becomes news, and then it becomes fair game. Okay, everyone's been demanding that Frabel come out and answer some questions, and so all he did yesterday was come out and just sort of sit there because we were demanding that he come out because of all of the hypocrisies here. Like, how is it possible that the standards are higher for the New York times than they are for an NFL organization. How is it possible that somebody being good at his job over here is not answering any questions about this, and someone else over here is resigning from a career that they have built because of everything that's happening around here? Frabel comes out yesterday and he answers questions because we demanded it, but not really. He was out there with God knows what the PR crisis stuff was, what the crisis teams were telling him, how scary a moment this was for him because of whatever the shame there is in his private He goes from saying this was laughable, laughable, to now the man in front of us yesterday has lied about something that was laughable that is clearly kind of so now.

What did you make of everything that happened yesterday, including him volunteering to us that he's going to emergency counseling this weekend that will make him miss 8 of the 11 picks that the Patriots have on the third day?

I just want to make sure that we separate the two issues. When he first met the media a couple days ago, That's when he moved from laughable to, I take this very seriously, my job as a leader. I take accountability. I had very difficult conversations. And that's what I'm going to say. That was already throwing Diana Rossini under the bus. It was horrific. He looked mealy-mouthed and whatever advice he was given was poor and his execution of the poor advice was spot on. But that was that. But then last night at 12:30 AM, it came out like a Friday news dump of yesteryear that would make Cody proud. Like knowing the deadline of a newspaper and doing it post-deadline as an ode to days gone by. It came out and said, hey, I'm going to counseling because accountability starts with me and I need to do this to be a better husband, a better father, a better coach. Hold on, you need to go on Saturday? I don't need to be a better coach or husband today because it's round 1 of the draft, but I can be a better husband starting Saturday. I'll miss round 3, day 3.

He couldn't have started Monday. I just don't understand who advised him of the schedule.

Well, let's— couldn't understand. Well, let's go through this. Okay, let's go through the latest parts of this because I want to go through the entirety of the timeline and how— look, Look, nobody wants to be at the center of these shamings publicly, uh, and what the— what has happened here puts Vrabel in a position where they wave Stefon Diggs because he was too much of a distraction. Stefon Diggs was their leading receiver. He had 85 catches, he had 1,000 yards. He's a serviceable number one. Their receivers weren't very good, but now they have to trade draft picks for AJ Brown because he was such a distraction. Vrabel had to go and explain that to his team, that he had done that to Stefon Diggs, and that's part of what he was saying were the difficult conversations of the weekend. But the news last night and the move last night, when the Patriots are surrounded by crisis management advice at a time, David, that I— when I've seen this happen anytime in the world, this is when people are at their weakest and they come and take bad advice from from just people who are there to profit off of the misery.

Like, you are at your weakest in having to address whatever it is that's happened here. You're very weakest. You're getting a lot of advice from a lot of people. Whatever the Patriots did yesterday, explain to me the maneuvering that has them at 12:30 at night saying our coach is going to miss the day that we have all the draft picks. It's supposed to be football first. It always is football first. And then on Saturday, he can't be seen in public because he knows that they're going to be talking about this on the televisions because they're not going to have other things to talk about.

But you miss something. He's going to be in contact with the Patriots. So it's not the type of help that he's getting where they take away your phone. It's not that. It's not like sex rehab or drug rehab where you go in and you're out of touch. This is counseling. Maybe it's immersive counseling. Maybe it's just day counseling. Maybe it's overnight. We don't know. But he'll be in touch with the team. The whole thing is so preposterous that I laugh. And it's not fun to laugh about this because I feel for Diana, who's just gotten railroaded by Vrabel, by him changing the story either with her permission or without. He obviously chose his family over her. We see that. And this because these are the exact steps that you do when you get caught and then you face it and then decide to go back or go forward. When you go back, you have to eliminate the distraction. But it just seems that the way he's disseminated the news has been clumsy.

How does this work, though, from a franchise to coach perspective, David? It doesn't seem like it was all Vrabel's idea alone. Is it like a drowning man pulls down whoever's near him? Every man for himself sort of a thing.

We will make an executive talk the way we want them to talk in public. You cannot make a player— you can ask a player to say a certain thing, but you can't make a player. And if you think the player is not going to say what you want, you just don't make that player available to the media. When it comes to your manager, your coach, your GM, you can absolutely instruct them what to say. They work for you. And I really think that the Patriots did get involved here. And somehow, I mean, we're talking about Kraft and his, you know, strip mall massage. I guess they've got a crisis PR firm that views lying and then doubling down on the lie as smart. But they can certainly make Vrabel do it. Now, could Vrabel then say, "I won't say that, Trista"? He can, but then he's risking being terminated for cause.

All right, so walk me through some of the humanity of this, David, because it's one thing to have the very public shaming of everyone is clucking and laughing at you, and then the very private one of whatever's happening in your personal life. But at The New York Times and The Athletic, there were a whole lot of journalists, peers, that were in an uprising over that, how those institutions handled the beginning of this. Giant institutions that are also interested in optics and the truth. And from everything that happened afterward, it is not unreasonable to assume anywhere in the resignation of Diana Rossini that she just got out from under whatever the questions were going to be about this investigation. Vrabel has also got to feel at his weakest right now, and it's at least in part because he's surrounded by a bunch of peers closer than— it's not just the internet cluck. It's all the people you deal with every day. You went to laugh— from laughable, this is all laughable, to now you're a liar. Like, you're somebody that we're seeing from everything that you're handling here. You're the coach of the Patriots and you're a liar.

Him at his weakest, no matter what you think he is, is a strong man, is a champion. Okay, this has got to be so human at the core of it. He's doing whatever they tell him to. Like, he's just scared. I mean, what's the truth in the report of Robert Kraft trying to get these photos blocked for him? And what's the truth of who's the reporting on the— us— on the— the Patriots were trying to block for the paid photographs.

So one thing that we do know, according to multiple sources, is that the Post had this story and the two central parties here knew about it because there was that news item that Diana Rossini was approached at her home. And In Touch has reported with this extended timetable that the, uh, the Patriots and Diana had— again, this is In Touch, so take it with a grain of that Robert Kraft tried to kill the story. Now, you may ask how. According to this source that spoke to In Touch, he had a crisis strategist get involved, and those efforts, well, we all saw what happened.

Yeah, you can get involved and try to kill a story. That happened. That's a Tuesday when it comes to famous people in journalism. And when they're— listen, you know, Dan, if story's going to come out about me or about the Marlins, I'm going to try to kill it. And sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. And sometimes Sometimes whatever it takes isn't enough. And in this case, the real question that I've been asking is what else is left? Because Vrabel continuing to double down on this change of position, he knows what could be out there. Hey, if there's a hidden camera at this place at this time, I was there and I may have been naked. I mean, whatever the case may be. And if you're the New York Post, you have no duty to disclose everything you have. You can keep calling the Patriots and Vrabel and saying, all right, I've got 2 more photos, I've got 4 more sightings, I've got 2 more witnesses. Now, do you have a comment? So this could be going on. And if Vrabel— that's the concern. If I'm the Patriots, is, oy, this counseling is not going to stop the story if there's more.

And there may be more. Yeah.

I mean, people could be digging into his past now. This is basically the a green light to anybody to do— for anybody to do that. I actually thought his statement was effective earlier this week in putting the story behind him. It was also effective in burying Diana and left her holding the bag a little bit. But then the news item came out yesterday of he's going to seek counseling, which allows you to be a, a little bit of a skeptic here and be like, well, all right, what's going on here? Is there more to this story? Are they worried that more stuff is going to come out? That would be the counseling. Or are they just trying to avoid the optics of him sitting around on day 3 of the draft staring blankly into the abyss in a war room while they have to vamp because it's day 3 of the draft? That's—

that seems— David, give me your best theory there on the Saturday emergency counseling, that, that day particularly.

You can't say that. That's an oxymoron. It's not emergency counseling in 3 days. Emergency counseling is when you drive yourself to rehab from a 7, like you've had the bender, right to rehab, or you're caught in bed. Hey, look at me, I'm naked. All right, I'm going to sex addiction counseling right now. That's emergency. When you make an appointment, hey, I'll be there like in 72 hours. I just don't view it that way. So my theory here is that the Patriots actually thought that this 12:30 AM announcement would be an end to it. Hey, look, all right, it's counseling. Of course he did it. He lied. He spoke to the team. It's all good. We need him for the first 2 days of the draft. It's so silly. But day 3, we'll let him go. To me, I would have announced nothing. Let the draft happen and then quietly go to counseling. And then even if you go, when you're done, you can then meet the media again at training camp and say, yeah, I had offseason issues. I took care of them with professional help, my family. I'm trying to put it back together and put this behind me.

Me.

I just think he's really brave for being able to put aside the counseling days 1 and 2 of the draft and being able to wait till Saturday. It's admirable.

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Dan Levitar. Taitas. Stugatz. Taitas. This is the Dan Levitar Show with the Stugatz.

I also think that we should meet his statement with scrutiny because that statement didn't necessarily just read about this Diana situation. You could also parse through it and say he's trying to get out in front of other things, which then turns your attention back to Diana's side of the story, which is not convenient in a narrative if there is more to it.

David, it's all so dirty.

It is like, is this the worst crisis counselor ever? Like, it feels like everything that they've been advised to do just makes it all the more worse. Yeah, my entire show—

well, 50% of my show is based on people who just get bad crisis PR advice and how funny it is to look back on when I had it and gave it and how people just actually convinced themselves that the rest of us are just stupid. And they— because you go through in crisis PR, you rehearse it, you have written Q&A, you have a written statement, you know how long it will take to read. You literally practice. And that means that there are people who went through it and said, yeah, this sounds great.

Yeah, but this is perfect. But David, if I can just stop you for a second, okay? Because this is a nightmare for the parties involved, everybody involved. This is a real public nightmare. There are kids involved, like, then, and everybody clucking about this at work and everywhere else. I, I understand how it is that anyone is going to criticize crisis management because it's weird in the middle of the night to throw us counseling. But let's check the timeline here for a second because it does feel like they're warning us that more is coming, just the same way that Melania comes out and does that press conference on the Epsteins out of nowhere. She just comes— and on Epstein files, and everyone's like, well, what's she, what's she trying to get out ahead of? Here's the timeline. Vrabel gives that mealy-mouthed press conference that answers no questions. He's just in front of us for the flogging and then answers nothing. Like, you demand answers, accountability, you got none. Hours later, the New York Post reveals new photos. Now he announces he's going to counseling. What's going on with this photo leaker, this photo taker? What's happening here that might make for more here, that one might make all the crisis damage management stuff that is happening happening here moot because there's more here that everyone's fearing.

And I don't get sitting out the third day of the draft. There has to be a strategy behind that.

It's possible that Murdoch told Kraft there's more. 100%, that's possible. It's possible that the reporters said to Vrabel and his representatives, hey, just so you know, there's more. We're not going to tell you what or tell you when. So trying to get out ahead of a story that you don't have control of is really hard when you've started it with a The only play that Vrabel had was to meet the media and say, obviously, I was there. It was inappropriate. I was involved in a relationship outside of my marriage. I'm dealing with it privately. I don't know if it's going to work, if I'm going to stay married, if I'm going to— if I'm going to stay the coach. I can only tell you that the gig is up and I'm incredibly embarrassed and sorry. I'm not taking questions. I'm not going to talk about it further. But that's what happened. That's how you end a story.

I want to reiterate here because I want to talk about the journalism of this for a second, David, because, okay, I'm compromised here. I'm just simply compromised. I do not want to make this any worse for someone else that I care about who probably must feel that she is under a great deal of duress. And I haven't been able to connect with her in a way that I do not want to make this any worse for her by one syllable in any way that for whatever it is that she's enduring right now. So I just, I want to make that part clear because I want to talk about the journalism of this, the paying for photos, what is and isn't news, the ability to kill stories and not kill stories. Bob Kraft made something go away there with moving the levers of law in a way that rich people do. What happened here? Like, what's happening here with long-range photos and intrigue? What's happening here that is making this the story that's eating up the internet?

Well, we have an incredibly salaciously built society. We love this stuff, which is funny to me because of the glass house syndrome, but for whatever reason, we think that extramarital affairs are are really the most important soup you can ever have. I should say tea. And I've just never viewed it that way because I've just been around it in sports and on Wall Street so much that to me, it was never even a factor in hiring or firing or thinking about anything. It was just be smart. And if you're not smart, then you can't do your job. If you can't do your job, we have a problem. And for me, Diana Rossini, that's her job, is to give me inside information And if she wants to get it however she gets it, I have no opinion. I don't know how she gets it, but I read it and I use it to help me do my job.

It can be seen though, as from the outside, it can be seen as a gender story. Why is the woman getting punished here instead of the man? Why is it always worse for the woman than it is for the man? So if I were to reverse this, I make somehow the coach a woman, Dawn Staley, whatever the, the equipat summit, whatever the equivalent is to Vrabel, and I make the reporter a man. Do people understand listening to this that the man would also have resigned a second ago because because this is about the journalism and the ethics of the New York Times, and it's an ethical standard that no other insider has to live by because ESPN doesn't do it this way on the journalism standards of, of what this is. This is— this might not be a fireable offense at ESPN or some other remaining places. It's a fireable offense at, at the New York Times because all of these standards are diminishing, and you cannot have a story where you pay for photos You pay for photos, they're shopped around, and you pay for them. They're photos that were supposed to be reportedly of just Vrabel.

They didn't even know that Russini was in this story. They didn't know the woman involved, reportedly. I don't know what's true there. I'm having more and more trouble figuring out what's true everywhere. The, the paying for photos and turning it into the crisis that it presently is— can you walk me through what you believe is happening there journalistically that makes the standard for the journalist higher than the standard for the football coach?

Well, you have to look at the source. The Athletic has a code of conduct. And you're right, the code of conduct is different at The Athletic than it is at Fox, let's say. And the reason why it's different is every company has its own thoughts. Chick-fil-A closes on Sunday, for crying out loud. So you have to look at where you work. Diana knew where she was working. She knew what her code of conduct was. There are some places, some people she competes with who can do a whole lot worse to get inside information. And they do it and no one cares. Is it about sex? Well, sex is sexy. If Adam Schefter were having an affair that got caught on photos with that clipboard-holding owner of the Titans whose name escapes me, I can't believe it. I'm old. Mike Ryan, what's the name of the woman who's on the sideline as the owner of the team? The Colts? Irsay?

Irsay? Yeah. I don't know. Irsay. The Colts.

Thank you, Juju. Bros. So imagine if Schefter were having an affair with her or some sort of photos of canoodling came out. Schefter would have a problem, which is why I have not leaned into the gender side of it. It just happens to be a woman journalist with a man coach. But I believe the other way, society would have treated it the same. And it's incredibly unfortunate that a journalist who works for a place with rules broke those rules. Maybe forced to resign, maybe violated them, maybe. But if your competitors do something, gentlemen, I leave you with this. And Trista, please. There are baseball players who did not take steroids who would come up to me and say, why am I not doing steroids? Everybody else is doing steroids and you're paying them, you bastard. You're paying this guy because he takes steroids and I don't. Why don't I? And my answer always was, it's your decision. Decision.

Why did you tell Trista about the steroids?

Why specifically? No, I said gentlemen, and I didn't mean to. Oh, okay.

The real question is, why'd you say, I'll leave you with this?

Because I, I wanted to, to say that, that people have a choice, and, and all you have to do is own up to your choices. And sometimes they're ugly and sometimes they're wrong, but when you lie about what you've done, it creates this ripple effect that and last, and it can cost you your job, it can cost you your career, it can cost you whatever it is that you may think is too high a cost. And enough people just, I guess, don't think about that at the time.

I think too, just really quickly because we're running out of time, like, the larger concept too is like, why are you in a position where you, you have to make that choice? And as a woman, is there a way to really compete with men? And I'm not putting up for anybody, but is there a way to truly compete with male newsbreakers given the dynamics of how it normally goes.

Is she the only female insider? Is that— I guess so, right? Like, just when you think of insiders, just the insiders, the information— Kimberly Martin.

Yeah, that was Josina.

Yeah, Courtney Cronin's also an insider. Yeah, I'm not the only one.

Just— but I'm, I'm talking about the, the Woj type, the Shams type, the part— the one that's so credible. I am talking about degrees of credibility. I'm talking about this in, in the modern age where truth gets distorted, and we're talking about a story that seems to involve lying, right? That's part of the intrigue of it. Where she has gotten as a credible newsmaker, none of the, the top of the, the information chain. I, yeah, I think of her as the only woman who has climbed into the group of the Schefters and the Wojciks. Do I have it wrong? Because I may, my information may be bad. I might, I might be following the wrong insiders because others are as big as she is. You're right.

You're 100% right. There's nobody operating at that level, at that scale. Kimberly Martin, but she also operates as an opinionist.

Not the same thing. David, thank you. Appreciate the time, sir. Nothing Personal is the name of the podcast. Apologies on the tech issues on the start. That was quite the tantrum.

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