Transcript of The Wizards Win (Something!) and More Lottery Reactions, Plus the Juggernaut Knicks With Joe House, Tate Frazier, and Chris Vernon New

What a special day here on the Bill Simmons Podcast, live on Netflix. Tate Frazier is here, employee number one at The Ringer back in 2015, now a host for us on, uh, Ringer Tailgate, pops on a bunch of our shows, a college basketball expert there, I would say. And more importantly, uh, because Zach Lowe couldn't be here today because he, uh, was at the lottery watching Joe House's favorite team.

Oh yeah, we called it.

We called it to being Joe House. You finally got the number 1 pick in an awesome draft. I've known you since 1988, September. We ate food and played pickup basketball together. That's how this all started. I have never seen your Wizards even make the conference finals. You've never had a truly awesome player on your team. You've had fun players, you've had good players. You haven't had an awesome player. How are you feeling?

Well, let me say right up front that it is, uh, of course ridiculous, irrational for a, a grown-ass man with a mortgage to derive such enormous pleasure, joy for something as dumb as where the ping pong balls land. But let me tell you right now, I apologize to absolutely fucking nobody. Champ is in the house. Number 1 is right here, baby. And we got it done with my guy number 2, John Wall, in that chair. And look what we do. We do the Dougie. Do the John Wall.

I'm just, I'm just glad you have pants on. Unbelievable.

I was encouraged to whip my dick out. Now, if you, if you'll indulge me, I'd like to offer, I did prepare an an acceptance speech for today. I did a little acceptance speech.

Oh, tater tots. Let's hear it. Yeah, let's hear it.

So, uh, I have to start with my wife, uh, because today is Mother's Day and she agreed that we could end Mother's Day today at 3 o'clock PM Eastern so I could get in locked in. That focus was crucially important.

Uh, good karma, good karma. Plus you probably had some drinks at brunch with her, so you're feeling great.

We did that, the Bloody Marys. That, that was put us in the right frame of mind. Um, huge thanks to Ernie Grunfeld, to Tommy Shepard, to Jan Vesely, to Johnny Davis, all the way up to this moment. Finally, with, uh, incredible infrastructure, a brain trust who created the tank of all tanks, a tank so brilliant and beautiful in execution that the league had to change the goddamn tank. We'll never have a lottery like this again. I'd like to thank Coach Brian Keefe, Sharif Cooper, Juju Reese, Jameer Watkins, Alonzo Williams, all the guys, they put their— poured their heart out. All my old DC guys, John O'Rant, we'll go all the way back to Wiz Nuts. Shout out to Wiz Nuts, my guy. Uh, Dan Shanoff, Christian Dunetzky, all of the old heads are so over the top with this one. We got our guy, we got the number 1 pick, and I'm— I'll humbly accept the number 1 selection today.

Emotional stuff. Tate, they earned it. They went 1 for 24 in their last 25 with a net rating of -14.6. I think somewhere in there was the Bam Adebayo 83-point game.

Yeah.

Which was one of the most humiliating nights in the history of the NBA. Thank you, Bam. They traded for two expensive, uh, former superstars that just didn't play all year. Trae Young and Anthony Davis played it perfectly. Just, just a win from start to finish. 50 wins in the last 3 years, Tate, for the Wizards, and it's finally paid off.

Yeah.

Congratulations.

Yeah. Worst record in the NBA. It kind of feels like they deserved it, right? Finally we see the team with the worst record get the number 1 pick. So that was encouraging to see. And I just love Joe Housey. I mean, he's like out of breath right now as he gives us like—

Yeah, I was worried he was gonna die.

It's gonna be a sweaty 2 hours today. Can we talk about how the rig for this year was the anti-rig? The brilliance of it was the tremendous zag was that the teams with the worst records grabbed the top 3 picks. Now the Brooklyn Nets were on the outside looking in, but when you did your karma rankings with, with Nick Wright, magnificent as always, by the way. Thank you. Shout out Nick Wright, my buddy. We've never met, but we're friends. You didn't have Brooklyn very high. You thought it was like, you know, did Brooklyn deserve the karma, right?

I thought their first rounders were so stupid last year, I had to deduct points. I just didn't understand anything they did. Yeah, when you think about it, and we'll talk about Indiana and the Clippers in a second, 'cause that was the most momentous thing that happened other than who got the number one pick. But for the most part, like, Golden State didn't move up. Atlanta didn't get in the top four as a possible Giannis suitor. Nothing truly goofy happened. And you would think the league would want to take care of Indiana, a team that lost their best guy to a terrible Achilles injury in a Game 7. And not give the 5th pick to the Clippers. But that's what happened. We have to talk about this. Why I really want to dive in that Clipper thing. We have to talk about this Washington pick because it seems like AJ is the guy. I predicted this to you, Tate, 2 months ago. Yeah. I was just like, this is a wrap. AJ's going to be the guy. And it seems like he's the guy. Couldn't help but mention there was a look on his face after the, after the lottery.

There was a picture that got sent around about a half hour later where it looked like Not just one of his dogs died, but like he had 3 dogs that he grew up with and they all died in, in the same explosion in the living room or something. Is— do you see a world where he doesn't go number 1 here, whether either somebody trades into this spot or Washington says screw it and takes Darren Peterson?

Yeah, it could be like a Chris Webber situation, right? Where like a team really loves him and they don't like the fit, so maybe they trade up to get him at number 1. It does feel like Utah obviously has invested. I mean, I don't even know how many years, what, 5 years? 7 years. Yeah. I mean, you, you run the numbers about all the millions of dollars from the BYU NIL to when he went out there to play for high school. Like he's been in Utah for quite a long time. So I think in his mind when he got to the Final Four, he's thinking, all right, Adam Silver, he cooked the books for me. I'm gonna stay in Utah. I'm gonna be a happy camper. This is gonna be great. And then when number 2 popped up, you could just see it. He was like, oh wow, this is real.

Oh wow.

He's like, he's like, where's Washington? Is that near Philly?

Yeah.

I think it hit him in real time. I also, I saw a lot of people saying that he was like, very, uh, no-nonsense, all-business type of guy. So that was an all-business response. I do think he had a little bit of like, oh man, I'm not going to go to Utah. But it leads itself to a situation— we were already texting about this— I mean, if you're Washington, maybe you call up, uh, you know, and kind of see what they're willing to offer, because obviously Utah is in love with him. There's also the other wrinkle where Carlos Boozer is a scout for Utah and obviously has his son in the top 3 and played for the Jazz for a while. For the Jazz, right? So like, there may be something where they're happy there at number 2 and they're going to get Cam Boozer, which means Peterson could even fall back to a 3-4 range depending on what Memphis likes. So I mean, I just think there's a lot of, uh, conversations to be had, which makes, you know, the 1-2-3-4 situation even more fun.

Yeah, House and I, we've already kind of ruined the podcast with a bunch of texts about this already. And basically, as soon as it all settled down, it's like, all right, House, let's say Utah really wants that number 1 pick. You only have to drop down 1 spot, and you could just take Darren Peterson and just make sure he doesn't put creatine in his creation drinks and creatine in his green juices and just stays away from creatine.

It took him a long time to come up with that excuse. You know what I mean?

That was a good one. I, it was, I was like, you know what? I, I, I tried out the creatine a little bit and it really screwed me up.

Yeah.

Yeah. And it's not for everybody.

We've seen it happen with Ben Griffin. He had too much creatine one tournament. It was losing his mind. So I mean, it's happened before. We've seen it in sports.

I recommended it to Kevin Wilds while I was, when I was trying it out. And now I think he's still doing it. I think he's all in on it.

But maybe it work, it works for him. But you know, the, Innovation for Peterson was to wait. He waited enough time for like the stink of how his season played out to deliver the excuse 6, 7 weeks. We're all done with March Madness. We're not thinking about Kansas basketball anymore. Uh, I have— here is what was going on. We knew that there was a true story. Somebody was going to give us the— so I, I admire, uh, the, the innovation, the revelation.

Yeah.

The one thing I will say, nobody with the Wizards are not calling anybody. Tate. I mean, Tate said maybe the Wizards call. The Wizards are— the Wizards' phone is sitting here.

Yeah, they're taking AJ, and then—

and you call them if you want to call. The phone's right here. You can call. We'll listen. Why wouldn't we?

We're around.

I'll take the call. And you know, the funny thing is the threads, uh, so from so many different sources, I— my phone's been buzzing, uh, relentlessly, and it's been all these congratulations. But everybody is wondering out loud about Utah because, you know, they made big investment in DeBansa. And by they, I mean Ryan Smith and BYU made an economic investment in DeBansa being physically in at BYU, by BYU, with the idea that he might, uh, if the ping pong ball goes back their way—

they took him, they took him from Massachusetts.

Yeah.

And he went to prep school in Utah, ended up at BYU. And this has been a thing that's been going on, right? I don't remember if it's 4 years or 5 years. And it was always like, wow, if they could ever get AJ, they're taking him. They're really familiar with him, the whole thing. It's weird. It's also weird somebody is this excited to go to Utah. We haven't had that a lot in the league in the last 50 years. Haven't been a lot of people, people panting to go there, House. But we, we were— I sent you all the picks Utah has. So Utah has been building all this stuff, hoping to do a 125 cents on the dollar type of trade. They have a swap with the Lakers next year. In '27, they have the best 2 of Minneapolis, uh, Minnesota, Cleveland, or Utah. Um, they have a swap with Cleveland in '28. They can do the best 2 of Cleveland, Utah, and Minnesota. And I'm saying 2 different, 2 of the best, 2 of the 3, the top 2. They have their own first, and then they have this really nice Phoenix first in 2031 house.

Devin Booker will be like 34 years old making $80 million on top of some other guys they have. So my thing is like, if I, like, let's say they come to you and they give you two of those picks, they give you like Sensabaugh and they give you number 2 just to move up one spot and you take Darren Peterson. Like, are you sweating that? No, no.

Two of those picks. I was wondering if the offer, if I was being too greedy looking for something like Ace Bailey, the number 2, and one of those.

That's the other way it could go.

One of those future firsts.

So just Ace Bailey and number 2 to move up to 1?

They didn't need to find anyone. You need one of those future firsts as well. And one of those—

Ace Bailey looked pretty good. Tate, didn't Ace Bailey want to go there last year?

Yeah, that was what he was angling. That's what a lot of people thought, that his agent was trying to get him to go there. So, right.

Yeah, I mean, honestly, Ace Bailey and two for one is a lot because I thought Ace looked good last year. I don't know if I would do that if I was Utah. My thing is I would trade back just because we've been arguing about which of these four guys are gonna be the best guy for four months, and I don't even know if we have an answer. Tate, where'd you land?

Yeah, I mean, I do think that AJ is number 1. I feel comfortable with AJ, right? He wants to be the number 1 pick. That's the number 1 test. Do you want to be the number 1 pick? AJ obviously wants to be the number 1 pick. Peterson has worked his way through the media with these exclusive interviews to put out that he also obviously is willing to be the number 1 pick. I thought the interviews at the draft— what an awkward TV experience that is at the lottery, by the way, with like everyone.

Can we talk about this?

Yeah, please.

So you have a half hour You have a half hour, you're ESPN, you have a half hour for the lottery, and then the Knicks game starts. You spend the first 15 minutes having awkward interviews with the people sitting there, showing all the representatives, and then doing the same ping pong ball video they show every year. The lottery happens, 4 massive things happen in the lottery, and they just throw it right to the game. And it's like, what are you guys doing? Like, like, I, how could you have handled this worse? Like, I would've had the lottery at 3 and then 15 minutes of discourse. Anyway, go on. So we both had AJ, we both think AJ should be the first pick, but I wouldn't, it's not like a Wemby situation where you wouldn't bet your life he's gonna be the best player in 10 years from this draft. It could be any of these 4 guys, right? Yeah.

I mean, I think you can talk yourself, I mean, I've seen boards that have Boozer at number 1, right? That seems like he's the, the, the safest of the 4 picks, right?

Hollinger had him at 1.

Yeah. Hollinger had him at 1, which is a, you know, I think it's a fair point because if you look at Boozer's record, right, he's won at every single level. Obviously was National Player of the Year this year. You like the way that he carries himself. He is going to be a really good player at the next level. I think Caleb Wilson obviously is tantalizing. I know you don't like the hairdo hairstyle that he had there at the—

Ambitious, ambitious hair.

I think he cleans it up and I think he's going to be all right. But I mean, just the high flyer and Sean Kemp has been thrown out there. KG has been thrown out there, obviously McGrady a little bit. I also think I see a lot of people with Caleb at the 4. I think he's going to end up being a wing. I think he's going to end up being a 3. So I think he's one of those guys.

Yeah.

I just think he has the athleticism to be out there. Maybe they slot him down at the 4, you know, at some level. But I think Caleb's obviously in that conversation. And then Peterson, I saw Peterson in person at the Kansas-Carolina game in the fall. And I mean, he didn't even have a great night, but I mean, puts up 24 points with ease and you're just like, man, this guy's so smooth, so easy. And obviously the McDonald's All-American Game, you saw a lot of people defer to him just because of he, you know, just the way he carries himself. He calls himself Michael Myers of basketball, right? Like, I kind of like that even though he's a little bit of a weirdo.

Right.

I think that might be a good thing. We told him, we said he was the Kawhi of guards. So again, you can kind of argue the Kawhi of guards house.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I could take the Kawhi of guards. I'm not sure he didn't show enough Michael Myers, uh, he wasn't enough of a killer this season.

I think AJ should be— I think AJ should be first, but I also feel like if you end up with Peterson and more stuff, that's a nice place to be. And the, the— we've talked about this before when Tate and Kyle Mann were on, but The Peterson High School tape is out of control. It's out of control. I mean, he looks like he's gonna be Kobe Bryant when you watch this stuff. And I, I thought, seemed like he had a little too much weight this year and we were talking, it just felt like he could never get going this season, which of course makes you nervous to take him one, but it also feels like he could just be spectacular.

Now it also feels like he didn't want to learn the college game. I mean, I know that's a little bit banal, but I just feel like it's such a different sport. It was just like, all right, I'll just skip this stage.

I totally agree, Tate. The, the, what, what he showed us, body language language-wise, attitude-wise, is my single goal is to not get hurt. I will do this thing that is a required step. I will fulfill the requirement. Present? Present. He raises his hand. Are you here, Mr. Peterson? Mr. Peterson is here. He's present.

And that's it.

Get me the fuck outta here. I want to go be a pro basketball player. And here we are.

The VP of common sense would be a little nervous about the Wizards taking a guy who's already had major cramping issues and questions about his demeanor and his body.

You're talking about the old Wizards.

Gilbert Arenas.

Those are the old Wizards. That's not this Wizards. John Wall. That's old stuff.

I don't know how—

Don't bring it up the past. We're in the present, baby.

One of the things I love about the Bansa is there's just no way, like he's already built like a 28-year-old man.

Mm-hmm.

And I don't even know what his body's gonna look like, you know, 5, 6 years from now. But he's just got, there's some, there's some interesting stuff with him. There's some defensive metrics that aren't great with him. Hollinger pointed to, like for how athletic he is. Why isn't more stuff happening on that end? But I just, to me, he feels like the perfect kind of, he could play the 3, he could play the 4. He's physical, he rebounds, he, you know, I think he's really competitive. He really wanted to be the number 1 pick. I think that matters, House. And if you drafted him and he actually could talk himself into going there, I think he gets there. I just feel like it's a set thing. You know what it is. I don't know what the variance of it being bad— I don't really see with the banter.

No, no, no, no. That's why you're— the ceiling with him feels like to me the highest ceiling, just acknowledging that Caleb Wilson is more of an unknown quantity because the injury limited how much we got to see him against the highest comp and especially in March Madness where you really get a chance to see like, okay, these are stakes, the guys are ramped up, let's see it. So we were deprived of that with Wilson. But I feel like ceiling-wise, the Bantz is— it's all the whole thing. And he will definitely be cool with being here in Washington.

AJ Strong. We've had some more luck lately with nickname, acronym, first names. Dare I say, if he comes in right away, and I think he's a 30 minutes a game guy next year, right, in the NBA.

Yeah, 100%.

I mean, he could be like a 15-8, like a 16-8, something like that. Is that conceivable?

Yeah. And if you look at the front court with Washington, that's a fun front court. Like, as far as size, you know what I mean?

Like, those three guys, him and, him and Sar and Anthony Davis with Trae Young and George and House loves Trae Johnson. Like, that's, that's a kind of a team.

Yeah.

The floor is BJ Edgecomb. I think what we got outta Edgecomb this year for a guy that showed up ready, playing big minutes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ready, and he took that team— he, more than any other player on that team, transformed what they were going to be capable of for this entire season. You know, when we did the, the dumb October 'what the hell is Philly going to be,' we had no idea. We knew how excited they were about Edgecomb, but he showed up and within 2 weeks it's like, oh, look at this backcourt, they have Maxey and Edgecomb. And it, it, it resuscitated the fan base. And if we get anything, I think that's the floor for D'Vanza. Now maybe that— maybe, you know, I'm—

and we like—

I'm on supply right now, baby.

But we like Sarr.

Oh yeah.

There's, you know, some of the metrics of them were pretty bad, but I like them.

He's shot blocking stuff. That's what you want. Threes and shot blocking.

All right. We'll get back to Washington because number 2 is Utah. Washington had a 52% chance to be in the top 4, and Utah was at 45. Won a crucial coin flip. I dunno if you guys know it, they had a coin flip with Sacramento to decide who was 4 and who was 5 and who got which set of things, and that ended up getting them the second pick. Danny Ainge, who I'm intimately familiar with as a guy that ran my team forever, and just the way he thinks, he always goes for superstar ceiling. He's always, if he feels like somebody has a chance to be great, he's gonna take that guy and he's not gonna care where it is in the draft. Like he was the one guy that would've taken Durant over Oden. It's just that, that's just how he rolls. Tate, is it possible he'll look at the high school stuff from Peterson, he'll throw away the Kansas year and be like, this guy's Kobe Bryant, we gotta take him?

Yeah, I think there's a high chance just because, I mean, I think a lot of times the college tape is just like additive. It's not the definitive case. And I think a lot of times for fans, it is the definitive case. 'Cause that's what most people see. They don't see all the stuff beforehand. They've seen these kids since they were 16 years old. And obviously Danny Ainge was there the last time the number 1 pick was traded and Markel Fultz. And there was a lot of people that, you know, were a little upset in the moment that that happened. And then it turned out to be one of the best trades ever for Boston to be able to get Tatum there at number 3. So he's been there, he's done that, he's seen that. And I think with Peterson, it just sort of depends on how he interviews maybe with Ainge and if Ainge likes the fit. Um, but I just think it could be tantalizing with that.

It's gonna be a boring interview, I'll tell you that much, from what we've seen from, from Peterson.

But maybe he likes that, you know.

Maybe I don't think I'll be talking about his favorite podcasts and some books he's read lately.

He's not gonna be like Tom Knipler, you know what I mean?

Sure. Yeah, yeah, that's another one. Um, look, he fits in with the team they have because now they have Jaren Jackson, they have Markkanen, you know, they have Kessler who's coming back. Yep, they got a great, great year from their young point guard. What they're actually missing is a 2 guard and a scorer and like a closer, which—

that's what he played at Kansas. He played—

so maybe played the 2, right? So House, maybe they're just happy, happy. Maybe this all— because there's a world where you just look at the board and you go, Washington happy to take Tabansa, Utah super excited to take Darren Peterson, Memphis Couldn't be happier to add Cam Boozer, like the most Memphis pick ever. And then Chicago like, sure, we'll take Caleb Wilson. And that's just how it goes, right?

Boozer's kind of a grown-up, you know what I mean? Just feels like a guy that's not gonna have any sort of issues. You can make him a franchise type guy. Cedric Coward fits in well with him. Jaylen—

Grizzlies. Yeah, they're back. It works. I could see that. You agree with that, House?

I sure do. And especially Peterson's athleticism at the pro level, um, and him with— and Ace Bailey, like there is something there in Utah that you could point to and say, you know, let's go ahead and see if we can win some games. Well, I think that team, because, uh, you know, that poor coach, um, that, that, you know, Will Hardy. Yeah, Will Hardy. We haven't seen him really get to cook. He only gets to cook every once in a while. He cooks through 3 quarters and then, and then he has to turn this, the oven off, uh, for the last—

he was going to be cooking meth if he had to coach that team for 3 more years.

Breaking Bad.

Yeah, it really was. I was like, he was losing his mind probably. But I mean, they got lucky last year with Ace.

Yeah, that they—

Ace tried to do that stare down and get them to go to Washington.

They just stared him down like, you're calling his agent video, one of the classic draft videos. Yeah, right.

But they've never moved up in a lottery, I don't think, in the history of the franchise until, until this draft. So Peterson, I would assume— but I'm telling you, man, if Danny watches enough Caleb Wilson and it's just like, this guy's this guy's the next Giannis, we're taking him. Like, they'll take him at 2. He gives zero fucks. I know their process, like, it's that there's never leaks with Danny because it always takes him a while to figure out who he likes. His also, his son's running the team and obviously the owner is going to have a say and there's a bunch of people involved, but they're— Danny's going to be the Yoda of this situation. I think from a fun NBA standpoint, Dubanza 1 and then Peterson going to Utah 2 is fun. Boozer at 3, and then we don't think Memphis will trade that pick or anything. And then, you know, Chicago, just hilarious. They're gonna actually end up with a fun team despite themselves, and it will go nowhere near the luxury tax, but they'll play with pace. They have, uh, Taylor Jenkins went there. And with Wilson, the only question I have, Tate, there's no chance he drops to 5, right?

I just think that anything is possible with the Bulls, you know? I could totally see the Bulls like having Keith Walker.

'Cause Walker's from Illinois.

Exactly.

I mean, that's like —not nothing in their backyard.

They talk themselves into Wagner, great passing vision, all that sort of stuff. And then somehow Caleb Wilson falls to the Los Angeles Clippers and gets to work under Kawhi Leonard, a guy who I think, you know, as far as the hand size, I think is a little bit similar. And I think it would be a perfect kind of tutelage situation where he could learn under. And Ty Lue obviously doesn't really lean on the rookies too much, but it could be a good situation and a good spot for Caleb Wilson. But the Bulls, I mean, I know they just got a new, you know, kind of front office situation, so maybe. But at the end of the day, the ownership is the ownership, and they've you know, done some things in the past that are head-scratching, and that could happen yet again there at number 4.

Or not done some things.

Let me ask, ask you guys this, and we'll have a chance to talk to Verno as this all plays out. Oh yeah. Memphis strikes me as a team that might be more inclined to take a swing on Caleb Wilson rather than the, the tried and true steady Cam Boozer. 'Cause like, does Cam Boozer move the needle for Memphis? I mean, they have an interesting little nucleus. There is still yet whatever they resolve with Ja, whatever assets they get back, but they're still super in transition. They're not a team that's going to be looking to try and win, I don't think, 45 games next year, right? They don't have the roster for that. Um, so if, if, if Caleb fits like that way where Cedric Coward is, like, you're just building a really athletic, uh, kind of front court situation.

A little Memphis. Boozer dropping to 4 would be out of control.

Well, that's why I'm asking Tate.

Like, yeah, that's like, he just feels like I don't know what his ceiling is, whether he's ever gonna make a first team All-NBA or anything like that. And I probably like him a whiff less than others, but I still feel like it's like he's getting guaranteed 22 and 10 guy, you know, total stud. Yeah. And he'll be super competitive and he's always produced.

I mean, I think that's the real thing with Kambuza where you almost talk yourself out of it even though it's right there in front of you and you're like, he's gonna be an all-star, you know, he's gonna be a guy that's in that conversation. So. So I really, I think Memphis just plays it safe there, but I like what you're saying, House, like high IQ transition type team, Coward, Caleb Wilson, that could be a fun combo.

I could, I wonder if Wilson could just single-handedly rejuvenate Ja Morant. Well, you look at Chicago, if Wilson falls to Chicago at 4, and for the people listening who haven't really followed this draft, Boozer's like the steady 22-10, really knows how to play the game. He's just gonna elevate wherever he is. And Caleb Wilson is like the wild card who got hurt before March Madness. All-time incredible college athlete, like just nuts. Like he feels like he came out of like the Phi Slama Jamma era. And there's like pieces of Sean Kemp. Tate mentioned Tracy McGrady a little bit. He doesn't have the 3-point shot yet. There feels like there could be a little, little Chet maybe defensively if he could ever figure out that side of it as like a 4. I know the defensive stats weren't awesome for him, but, uh, but I'm looking at Chicago with Giddy and Kobe White and Aya Dasunmu. Oh no, they don't have two of those three guys.

I got excited for a second. I'm like, wait a second, what is going on?

Yeah, it's— now they don't.

Think about that though. Matas and Caleb.

Yeah, Buzelis and Caleb. Who's not getting just yanked— his minutes yanked around by Billy Donovan anymore. All right, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come back and talk about the number 5 pick, which became one of the most fascinating things that has happened in the recent history of the lottery. After this, the Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. It's been a wild playoff run, not over yet. FanDuel wants to bring you closer to the court to make all of that action come to life for you, the basketball fan. FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, plays. During NBA postseason, build a same-game parlay for a shot at a bigger payout, or try live betting and jump into the action right after tip-off. Whatever you want. That's the whole point of live betting. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21+ select states or 18+ DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat. Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. You know what my favorite thing about the playoffs is? I like during it, and it's usually maybe a Game 4, might even be a Game 5.

Game 7, everyone's nervous. There's a different level of energy. But Game 4, Game 5, for one of the two teams, there's this realization with like 5 minutes left in the fourth quarter where it's like, uh-oh, our fate is, is suddenly in real flux right now. Who's stepping up? What are we gonna do? Let's calm down. Can we rise to the moment or are we gonna shrink from it? It's as great as opening up a Michelob Ultra, a nice cold one, crisp, refreshing, the ultimate prize. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, custom merch, and more. You could be at one of those games when the pressure rises. Michelob Ultra, Superior is worth playing for. Enter now at mickelobeultra.com/courtside. Mickelobe Ultra Courtside 25-26. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2025. Ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at mickelobeultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, and prizes and details. Clippers make this crazy trade for, with Zubats to the Pacers. Mm-hmm. And it's top 5 protected, or top 4 protected. And at that point it looks like the Pacers are gonna be the worst team in the league.

Cool. There's a second first round pick there. Oh, one Joe House is back. Yeah, we're back, Joe House. All right. Um, Indy goes 4-21 in their last 25. The Wizards go 1-24. Indy lost 16 straight and somehow didn't end up with the first spot. Falls back 3 spots, gets jumped, loses the pick for, for Zubats. And this 5th pick is no joke, Tate, because we move with the 5th pick. There's a secondary, guys. Wogler, we mentioned. Acuff, who might be a next Kyrie for all we know. Burrys is in there. People love Flemings. Like, this is like a potential All-NBA someday guard. And Indy just doesn't have the pick now because they traded for Zubats. Just a staggering kick in the balls. An all-timer.

Yeah, it's an all-timer. Can you put your conspiracy hat on here, Bill, and talk about this?

Because obviously I don't think my— the hat— I don't— there's no conspiracy, right?

I mean, I'm just saying ABA-wise, right? The Pacers. Do you say— do you think there's a little bit of like, they'll never let the Pacers get what they deserve because they're an ABA team? That's where I'm going here.

I'm just like, wow, I never even thought of that. They've never won the lottery.

Yeah.

Yeah, I like that conspiracy.

Yeah. Well, can we talk about the protection? That's the thing.

The protection is the thing. They basically made it seem like, hey, there's 4 players we love in this draft, and we get— but that's not how you can think, because if you end up with the 5th pick and you have to give it away, nobody in the planet would trade Zubats for the 5th pick in this draft. I don't think they would trade him for the 6th, 7th, or 8th picks. Honestly. But yeah, they took this chance with the percentages, Tate, and what happens? They get screwed and now they have no pick. And for the Clippers, this is a miracle. Yeah, it's amazing. Literally a miracle.

Yeah, it's amazing. And, and obviously there's a lot of like, you know, I, I think this is Pablo Torres' nightmare. Shout out to Pablo. This is, he did not want to see this. The Clippers getting some sort of, you know, momentum. Yeah, they got something. It's basically their number one pick, right? I mean, they, they were able to, they knew what it was. Okay, House has got video again. That's good.

Yeah. So that happens also.

You had, I think it was The president of basketball operations for the Pacers kind of put out a tweet to Kevin Pritchard. Yeah, Kevin Pritchard was just like, I'm so sorry that this happened. We thought that we had good juju on our side. Turns out we didn't. That's never good when you see that as a fan of the Pacers. And you know, we talked about like that would've been the perfect spot for like a Peterson or Caleb Wilson or a Boozer, one of these guys to kind of slot into this Pacers team that can make a real run as a title contender. And now we're talking about the Clippers and them being able to get the 5th pick. And then, I mean, you could talk yourself into Acuff pretty easily there at number 5. And I think that would be, be a big swing and a nice pickup for Ballmer and the Clippers.

So it's funny, I think they would take Wagler because he's 6'6". Yeah. Like, Acuff's a big guard. How's that? I love Acuff, obviously, but you have Darius Garland already, and I think they really like Garland. Like, he had some real juice when he showed up. That if you loved Acuff, I think you'd have to trade Garland, which would get a little complicated. but don't you think Wagner could play with Garland? It's not ideal, but he can play on or off the ball and he's 6'6", has some size, like has the shooting. I don't know. Yeah. I, I feel like he could do that, right?

Yeah, 100%. I mean, I think it, it, it fits as far as like those two guys being able to play together. It's not redundant at any point. And you know, there's a team that's sitting there at number 7 that I know that loves Acuff and probably would be willing to trade up potentially if you feel good about them wanting him so bad to get there at number 5 and maybe you get some more. The Kings really want Acuff. Cuff. I think that's pretty much a known entity at this point. So if they're willing to move up, that could be something there where you could get even more assets from a franchise that's a little bit desperate. So, but I really like Wagner. The only time that we saw Wagner struggle is when Jaxel Lindborg pretty much locked him up on defense, and he's 5 years older than him. So I mean, I think there's going to be some growing pains, but he'll get there eventually.

House, I had this in my notes with Sacramento. If you're the Clippers and you could just move back 2 spots, shots and take Burris 7. And also you get to trade with Sacramento, which has been one of the most foolproof ways to get better over the last 40 years and pick up a future pick from them. I would think about that 'cause Burris, I like, I, as you guys know, I love Burris, but, but if you're staying at 5, I think you, I think Wagler has to be the pick.

Both of those are tremendous options for, for the Clippers and it is proof positive that karma is on the Clippers' side, even in the face— oh, even in the face of all of the great circumvention, allegation, navigation. Somehow or another, the karma landed in a certain way. I suspect that the league is going to land in the same place, which is we are going to get on—

interesting. Clippers basketball. Because the worst case scenario here is they decide horrible things happen and they just wipe the— wipe the— we lost house again. Wipe the— they just wipe the Clippers pick away, the number 5 pick, and that's that. I had a doozy for you guys. Well, first of all, the Clips turned Zubats, who I didn't even think was playing that well this year, and Harden, who didn't want to be there anymore, into Garland and the 5th pick in this draft. So that's just amazing. And Matherin. Yeah. And Matherin if they end up resigning him. Yeah, that's true. They have two paths now because they could potentially trade Kawhi and trade Garland and just blow it up and try to rebuild around young guys. They could also swing the other way and make a Giannis play here because they're gonna have some cap space. They have the 5th pick, which I think is attractive. And there might be a way to send that and make that the focal point of some sort of trade and take Giannis' thing on and try to keep Kawhi and Garland and build around those three. Does that excite you at all?

Yeah, it excites me. I just want Giannis to be saved. I want Giannis to go somewhere. You were talking with Nick, right, about the Hawks and just, you know, if they get that top 4 pick and trying to package away where Jalen ended up going to Atlanta and maybe, you know, Giannis ends up going to Boston. I thought that was a tasty idea that I thought that, you know, I started putting that together in my brain. I'm like, that makes sense. It's kind of a win-win for everybody. This is obviously played out a little bit differently here, but if you're Milwaukee, I mean, I felt bad for, you know, shout out to Mallory Eden sitting there, you know, at the number 10 pick. It just looked like, you know, it was like Warriors, Bucks, like some of those teams on the back end that maybe they slot in and were able to, you know, never—

yeah, none of them hit this year.

None of them hit. So I mean, this is a way for them to be able to get something for the future that gives them a little bit of optimism and also saves Giannis because I'm tired of seeing Giannis be wasted. You know, after 2021, I thought we were gonna have like Wow, Giannis could end up being the greatest power forward ever. And it has really derailed, you know, over the past 3 seasons. Obviously injuries are involved and then the coaching. Shout out to Doc Rivers. I think he tried his best to make things happen, but great BS podcast guy. Glad he is back on the pod. We need him here.

It all worked out. He's back where he belongs. Yeah. On the, on the pod every once in a while.

And if Giannis goes to the Clippers, that's great for the league too.

Giannis going to the Clippers and being in Los Angeles with Kawhi, who's on a similar window of, I think, you know, how many more years is he going to have with Garland? And they could patch around. They've been really good at building veterans around there. You know, one of the outcomes of today was it feels like it really improved the Celtics' chances to get Giannis, if that's what they want to do. Because you saw Atlanta, who ended up in the 8th spot, but that was a team that if they moved into the top 4, I feel like they would have been in play for Giannis potentially Golden State was another one. If Milwaukee had gotten up there with Atlanta and somehow both ended up in the top 4, maybe they keep Giannis at that point. But none of that stuff happened. So I would say the Celtics are probably, probably the favorite at this point to get Giannis unless Dallas got aggressive. But I don't really know what the other team would be. Can you think of any? Charlotte? No, right?

No, I just don't think Giannis is going to be happy there. And then the Heat is basically just like Milwaukee South now. Yeah, you just trade spots with them at that point. I don't think that really works out. And as far as like the narrative of Giannis's career, you get Boston behind you, you kind of get the media, the cha— you know what I mean? Like you could really, right? You can really change the whole conversation about who you are as a player because like the numbers tell a great story about Giannis, you know what I mean? And like what he was able to do in 2021, you add in 2 more titles and you do it in Boston and you're kind of like the, the 1A and Jayson Tatum, you know, coming off injury is kind like, you know, I wouldn't say 1B, but let's just say Giannis ends up being the guy there. I just think it's a great story for a narrative purpose. And I do think Giannis, I know he turned his nose up to being the face of the league, and I think that was a bad move in general, but I think that could really salvage everything as far as like the Giannis story.

Yeah, he's in that where the KG 2007 spot, only he has the title but wants this next act and it's time to leave the team he's on. Still, maybe Golden State would be the other one. I mean, Golden State's at 11. Mm-hmm. And they have the Butler expiring, but I, unless they just gave the rest of their drafts in a way to get him, I don't know how that excites Milwaukee. Milwaukee's gonna want something back. Yeah.

So whether that's Jimmy Marquette guy goes back to Milwaukee.

I know, but he's hurt. Yeah.

You know, there's no, there's no real sell there.

And if you get Jalen back, you're getting a, a guy who's gonna be second team All-NBA, but you're putting him on a bad team. Maybe he'd like that. I don't even know. Or is it—

I don't know what he likes after it. Yeah, who knows?

He's all over the place. He had his favorite year of his career, but there were different reasons for it. Can you walk us through 5, 6, 7 with Wogler and Acuff and Flemings and Burris? And then it gets a little weird. Then somehow Phylan has just gotten pushed back when I feel like maybe he, he could be the guy that jumps. Is there in that whole order, is there anybody you think is in the wrong spot?

Yeah, it's a cluster of guards and, uh, Mikkel Brown Jr. was sort of the guy that I thought was the guy at number 5 going into the season. He had his own version of a Darren Peterson situation where he had the back spasms and Louisville fans and kind of the people around the team were a little upset about him not being able to play. And there was some kind of back channeling that was happening there. But I still think Mikkel Brown Jr. has a lot of upside. So I think he could be one of those guys that ends up being a steal if you get him at 8, 9, 10 range. Let's say the Hawks get him at 8. I think that's a really nice pickup. Up for them. I like Wogler at 5. I think Darius Acuff is the most explosive and like the guy that could really become a superstar. I mean, you even saw when they did the graphic on ESPN, the top 4 picks, they cut out Caleb Wilson and put Acuff. I couldn't believe that. Right.

Was that the Jay Billis list or that wasn't the ESPN list? That was just the Jay Billis only list.

I think it was a Billis list and that's why they did that. But I, for me personally, like knowing Caleb a little bit, I do think that Caleb is almost better when he's disrespected. Like if Caleb were to go number 1, I would actually be concerned. But Caleb going number 4, number 5, I feel like that's the best case scenario for his career. Cause he kind of, he's like at the MJ thing where he like needs gripes with people to kind of fire himself up. So I think that Acuff going at 5 would be great. Burrys is a little bit older, but it just kind of feels like a surefire guard that you can trust even off ball at times if you need him to be there. 5 line.

0: And we know what he is. Burrys is, we know he's a 2. Yeah.

Like he, he, he's a 2 and I think he's, obviously showed a lot at Arizona last year and a really, really good scorer and player. Phylon's an electric scorer. But honestly, of that group, I feel like Mykel Brown Jr. is the guy to me that gets me excited. You know what I mean? That could really be in a—

because on some lists he's in double figures. Yeah, in some of the mock drafts. I'm kind of shocked that—

I mean, I know Ament fell for, for, you know, a myriad of reasons. I know Mykel Brown fell for some of the stuff I mentioned with the injuries, But if you've watched Mikkel Brown when he's on, he is really, really good and he's got the size.

Who would you compare him to? That's a good question.

I'm trying to think. I mean, he's kind of, I mean, he's bigger. That's the other part. I think he's physically bigger. I mean, I mean, Jrue Holiday maybe a little bit potentially, you know, a nimrod.

You think he's that kind of defensive player? I think he could get there.

I think he's offensively great. I just think that Mikkel Brown Jr. has a lot of upside and I just think that the more I see him fall, the more I'm just like, if you're in the 8 to 12 range, 12 range? 'Cause I think 12 is the line. Like when, when things go bad is at 12. I think that's when you're like, you know, in OKC getting 12, I'm fascinated to see like, did they just take a swing on a Bennett Sturtz? Did they take Acquaintance? Like who is that player that the Thunder go for? We're all like, oh, of course they take Steinbach from Washington and he turns into Detlef Shrimp 2.0. You know what I mean? Like who, who is the play there at 12? But as far as that clutter of guards, I think they all have different kind of traits that you could fall in love with. But I, I'm like a Wogler, Acuff first, and then from there, you know, you can kind of pick which one you fancy. But Mikal Brown, I, I'm, I'm excited to see what he looks like.

So Acuff, if he goes to Brooklyn at 6. Yeah. The Kings will be sick. Well, they don't have their 27. Phoenix, Phoenix or Houston, one of them can switch. Houston could switch with them. So they kind of have to be good next year, right? Acuff is an investment in somebody that you're hoping, you know, can be pretty special. Who knows if he's— it's pretty rare for a point guard to come into the league and be awesome right away. And I, you know, there's, there's some feeling and some feedback about the Nets that they might want to say, fuck it, let's, let's get— we're tired of the lottery. Just didn't work out for us 2 years in a row, right? We tried to Tried to game this system twice. Each time we got screwed. Let's just trade the pick for a star. I'm gonna read you some names. Mm-hmm. Uh, sadly, I, I think House might be dead. I'm not sure what happened. I'm honestly like, a part of my mind— Oh, they're getting it fixed.

Yeah, they're getting it fixed. A part of my mind is concerned about House right now. I think he's on too much of a high.

No, no, no. I think maybe, maybe the DEA hit— The Bloody Mary's hit. Maybe he put something in his Bloody Marys and the, the drug police came. Name. Um, Paolo Banchero for the 6th pick, that feels like a no for Orlando. I'm just giving you some guys.

Okay, I think it's a no, but I mean, Paolo would say yes, right?

Well, but I guess for Orlando, it's like, we're way over the tax, we get to reboot a little bit. I— that's a no. I'm just, I'm just listing names. Don't get mad at me, people watching. Jaylen Williams on OKC. Mm-hmm. Which would allow OKC to get out of all this money stuff that they have coming. They could grab, you know, somebody awesome at 6. I don't think they would trade Jalen Williams for 6. If we're moving in the top 3, that becomes a different story. But 6, no. Crossing him off. Mobley gets a little more interesting. Especially if Cleveland gets bounced in 5, and we've seen Mobley kind of level off and just be an 18-9 guy. And Cleveland's way over the tax and could they just reset this? You let Harden go, maybe you trade Mitchell, and this is just a complete reset. Jamal Murray at 15 was the most fun one where you just put a cuff on Denver and you put Jamal Murray on Brooklyn. You have a vet. Giannis has to be mentioned. I don't know why he would go to Brooklyn if nobody was there. And then the only other one that's like Donovan Mitchell, Jaylen Brown.

I don't see how that makes sense for Brooklyn.

Yeah, I, I, uh, the, the Paolo one is the one that got my attention the most out of those.

Oh, interesting.

Yeah, just because, I mean, the, the Paolo thing just is fascinating. I know they gotta figure out the coach. I mean, you got the Wagner situation. I know Orlando would be sick to hear that, but I, uh, I, I'm just fascinated by him because he can turn it on and when he does turn it on, you're like, oh yeah, there he is. There's the franchise, you know, top 10 potential player. And then there's times where he's a little bit off and And I don't know, he's, he's a fascinating situation. I also feel like all the Giannis examples outside of Boston or, or the Clippers, as we've mentioned, it just feels like, you know, Will Smith and Fresh Prince when he's in the room by himself, you know, it's like, how many, how many of those situations can we send Giannis into? Right. I would feel bad for him if that were to happen again.

And how many years does he have left? Yeah. Right. Like, like if you're trading for him, what are you actually getting back? Sacramento at 7, I think they just take whatever point guard's left. They don't have point guard.

I think they're gonna try to trade up. I think they're gonna try to get the 5 and get Acuff. I really do.

Wow. I mean, that would be a godsend for the Clippers. You end up with this weird trade you made, somehow you get the 5th pick, you move backwards to get 7 for Burris, who you probably would have wanted anyway, and then you get more assets and you trade it with Sacramento. There's no way that doesn't work. Atlanta is another one that I think could trade up if they got excited about about a point guard. They're also a team, Jaylen's from Atlanta and that has to be mentioned. Yeah. I mean, if this was straight up Jaylen, Dyson Daniels and a contract and the 8th pick, like whatever that is.

How much do you think that's possible to happen at this point with Jaylen Brown? I mean, 'cause we, you know, you guys are talking about, I mean, he is so smart and cerebral and I do feel like some of this stuff is targeted and pointed on purpose, you know? Right. Is he kind of sent the message himself that he's like, I would be interested in something like that?

'Cause otherwise, well, you've, you've been following sports long enough now. He's doing the thing where there's just mixed signals anywhere and it's hard to tell whether he just wants everybody to be talking about him. Mm-hmm. Or whether he actually wants to leave or whether he actually wants to stay. And there's, there's kind of, I, there's no way you're just trying to grab it all over the map trying to see what's happening and you have no idea. Yeah. And I, I honestly don't know. Like somebody asked me for percentages of if I thought Jaylen was gonna be on the Celtics next year and I was like, I don't know, 50%. 50-50. That's crazy. That's what it feels like. It feels like a coin flip.

He also won a Finals MVP. Like, it'd be one thing if he, you know, when they won the championship, he did not win Conference Finals MVP and Finals MVP. I mean, he got those. I thought that would be the end of the whole thing. I'm, I'm, I'm very confused by it. Also, I'm so sad that we didn't get, you know, the Knicks-Celtics series after watching what the Sixers showed out. I know. I mean, my God. Yeah. Jesus Christ. We hadn't even talked about that.

No. Well, quickly in the latter, Atlanta's a Dallas is 9 and they have Kyrie coming back and Burris would be the dream Dallas guy here, right? Yep. But that's not positive he's gonna get all the way to 9, but that's like, oh my God, what a home run putting him next to Flag. There's a really fun version of how this lot— the only problem is I can't figure out what Atlanta would take. I assume at 8 they would take a point guard. Milwaukee's just taking whoever the highest ceiling guy has left 'cause they're gonna be in a rebuild at 10. And then can you walk me through Yaxel at Golden State at number 11? 'Cause that just seems like everyone's just gonna pencil him in there. Can he go higher than that? He's gonna be 24. Yeah.

I know Kyle Mann had him, I think 8 or 7 or 8 on his big board. Yeah. And Yaxel is one of those guys where he is older, which makes sense for Golden State, right? It's a team that it's obviously a very old team. And I know Draymond just had that moment with Barkley talking about Barkley's like old teams don't win anymore. So I, you know, it's a young man's game, but I think Yaxel, So my only issue with him going to Golden State is yes, he is older, but like the maturity is not older. Like his maturation does not match the age. And I do feel like, you know, you bring in another Michigan guy with Draymond, Michigan State guy, Kerr just resigned the extension. It's sort of running it back. Like you don't want to recreate a whole situation and a whole problem again where Steve Kerr is like, am I like, where am I? I'm in the Twilight Zone. Like why is this happening again? Yeah, but it does like make sense on paper. Defender. Kind of nice insurance on the wing, you know, as Jimmy is rehabbing and getting back. And he could be a nice piece for them that could be, you know, I mean, it doesn't have to be a scorer by any means, but I think defensively he's a nice cog in the machine.

But I still would be a little concerned about the maturation. Uh, that would, that would be the thing where the age seems like it matches, but I'm not sure that the, uh, the way that he acts—

well, the one that I think— so Mera, the center, is anywhere from like 8 to 15 depending. That could be an OKC move Well, that's what— so I had him written down tentatively for OKC at 12. But I also think there's a world where they try to trade up in the top 3, which I talked about Thursday. And some people are saying, because I had AJ Mitchell in 12 for the 3, and, and some of the feedback I was getting was AJ Mitchell's contract is so good, why would they trade him? Why wouldn't they look at, at Jalen Williams instead? 'cause he's gonna be at like 45, 48, 50, and they've proven that they can be running at all cylinders whether he's there or not. And I was wondering, like, could they trade Jalen Williams to Memphis for KCP and the 3? That feels like a preppy kind of move, right? Yeah. If you're Memphis, you're like, holy shit, we have Jalen Williams and Cedric Howard now. And if you're OKC, you're basically resetting the clock and you're getting some sort of, you're getting Boozer or Caleb Wilson, you're getting one of those guys, maybe even Peterson.

Yeah.

They know they have to break it up at some point. And also it looks like it works without J Dub, which is crazy. And AJ has been great so far. And I saw some people saying he looked like a top 50 player. So yeah, I mean, I think Presti will be working the lines. I think that's a good call. I mean, but I, I think at 12 to me is where the line is to see, 'cause like Dalyn Swain's in that range, Adai Mar is in that range. We also didn't mention Kingston Fleming. Flemings, who I do— I forgot to kind of mention in the cluster of guards. I do think Kingston Flemings is pretty fascinating too.

Yeah, I don't know what to make of him because— and I don't— from what the rankings are, it seems like a lot of people— because we've seen a little like Fears. I know he's better than Fears last year, but same kind of thing, like just a young athletic fast guard. What is he? Um, where was— we had— it felt like a big— a little more of a sampler size with Wagler and Aikoff. Yeah, but I know Flemings— at one point Flemings was the most— in all, number 5 and everything. Yeah, yeah. Um, last thing I want to mention on the lottery, Miami's at 13, and if you factor in 2 teams usually do something weird, right? Odds are they're gonna get like Phylon or somebody good, and it just— they— it always happens. They got Caron Butler that year. They got Tyler Herro that year, they got Bam that year. They're always like kind of lingering from in this early teens range. Couple people screw up and all of a sudden somebody awesome. And as you know, I don't like Miami. Salin wears—

what about like Nate Oment there? It seems like he's dropping. He is dropping, but I just don't think there is the tools that are there. Like, I'm not completely out on Nate Oment. I know that every time I see a new board, it's like Nate Oment's down to like 18, 20 range. Range. But there were talks last year going into the season where Nate Emmit was going to be in the top 4. He was going to be, you know, instead of Caleb Wilson, it was Nate Emmit, you know. So I still think there's maybe a team that talks themselves into taking him in that 14, you know, 13 to 15 range.

All right, so I'm putting you on the spot. The best player from this draft will be 10 years from now, people are throwing this clip back in your face.

I don't want to say it because I don't want it to get thrown back in his face, but I'm going to say it because why not? Caleb Wilson. Wilson.

That's not just a North Carolina thing.

No, I mean, I, I honestly, I could take the blinders off and I could just say to myself, my God, this guy is incredible. Um, so I mean, AJ, Caleb— oh, Verno!

Yeah, Tate just said, Tate just said he thought Caleb Wilson was going to be the best guy from this lottery in 10 years. Chris Vernon is here, by the way, host of the Mismatch. Future Memphis Grizzlies. Wilson, winner of the 3rd pick in the NBA draft. And I can't wait to hear who you want them to take.

Oh, listen, this Boozer-Wilson debate is gonna feed families, my, my family, for the next month and a half. This is gonna be great because I think the expectation is, is it right, the Banchero will go 1, Peterson will go 2, because they don't need a 4 in Utah. And so the Grizzlies, they're sitting at 3. That's going to be the debate. Everybody is going to try to decide whether or not they prefer Kambuza or they prefer Caleb Wilson, the sure thing, or like what Tate says, the guy— ceiling guy. Yeah, right, the ceiling guy.

Well, so who— let's dive into the psyche of Memphis and the grit and grind Grizzlies. That was the most beloved Memphis team of all time. Who is more Memphis of those two guys?

I mean, I will say that Wilson is— Wilson is— there's two, there's two ways to go look at it, right? Because I don't think people would necessarily think Marc Gasol, but Marc Gasol is like totally embodied Memphis. Now, he did go to high school there. He had an awareness of the city prior to, but he is a serious doesn't take any crap, gets the job done, right? Like, he doesn't go about it in some kind of flashy way, so I think that could be viewed as blue collar. Um, certainly Wilson has got the whole, like, I have this crazy motor, that kind of— so I think, honestly, I think both of them can fit in terms of, like, the city. Um, Wilson's the kind of guy that, like, will, like, it'll be every kid's favorite player. He'll be the one smiling. Like, he's got, he's got like a personality, whereas Boozer is obviously much more businesslike. But what, what fans respect is guys that, you know, especially in a blue-collar town like Memphis, they just respect guys that give an honest effort every single night. And I think that both, both of them, you're getting both of that.

Yeah, both, both of them do that, right? They'd go about it in different ways. Certainly Wilson's flashier, But you could be playing against anybody and Boozer is still like, Boozer doesn't half-ass it against anybody. And so it's just the idea that you like bring your lunch pail to work and you give an honest effort every night.

All right, Tate, give us your last thoughts because Double House is gonna come back into the Zoom. It feels like we've filled special, we've fixed the special effects. House doubled during the, during the podcast. All of a sudden he was in two feeds. Yeah, he was gone.

Zoom's open. Yeah, it was a disaster.

Um, so give us your Memphis take before we go. Who do you want them to take?

I think they should take Caleb Wilson because I think Cedric Carroll and Caleb Wilson is a fun combination. Also, like, John Morant, the high-flying John Morant.

Oh my God, that's a league pass team.

Yeah, like, this is— you get a perfect— you get dunk highlights galore. You got two high IQ guys with Cedric Carroll. I think that's great. It would be fun.

Didn't Boozer play on Chicago? The, the dad? Yeah. Yes, I have a vague memory of him ending up there and it wasn't, wasn't Great.

Yeah, well, and, and let's, let's pause on the whole John Morant flying around dunking.

I'm saying back in the day, we can restart the clock on a different guy, you know what I mean? Like, let's have some fun.

I gotta tell you, Bill, in absolute stunned disbelief that Tate prefers the Carolina guy to the Duke guy. This is crazy.

I like one of the chances. I like one of the guys.

I think it's a win-win, Verno.

Tate Tate will call it like it is, but if it's a UNC guy that he loves, he's gonna ride for that UNC guy.

If he played Georgia, I would say the same thing.

I'll say that. Tate, we'll see you on Ringer Tailgate this week. We're letting you go. Thanks for, thanks for hanging on, especially with the traumatic House disappearance. I'm glad we were able to go through.

I'm worried about him. I hope he gets in. Thanks guys. Good to see you, Verno.

Good to see you. Bye, Tate. Good to see you, Tate. Verno, how drunk is he? How drunk is House?

House was fairly coherent. What? Yeah, he's popping back on right now.

There is no chance if Memphis would've popped up one, I'm on this thing.

Did you, did you feel like you just wanted to get in the four or did, were you like, yes, yes. Yeah. 'Cause that's how I think with this draft, you just want to be in the four.

It was just, you know, whenever you go through miserable punted seasons, you just want the end to justify the means. And so being in the top 4 meant that it was worth it. And, you know, like, I'll give you, for instance, the very end of the season, and this is the worst thing to go through, is when you're playing, when you're playing games where it's like, who wants to lose more? But you guys even talked about it. I recall there was a game that was coming up with Memphis versus Dallas, and people were like, this thing should be on League Pass, right? Memphis was better at the end of the season at losing on purpose. Well, now you look up at the end, Dallas is picking 9 and Memphis is picking 3. They had the same record. They had the exact same record at that game. Yeah. And now, I mean, that is how, that's how, that's how sometimes this can fall. And so if you're, if you're a Dallas fan, I think you're looking at it and go, whoa, whoa, what was the point of that? We're picking 9, right?

We had that, the, we had that the Durant year. Yeah. The worst team, terrible. And then we fell to 5. We we felt of the Jeff Green pick. It was, it was devastating.

Oh, Bill, I hosted a bar build with Memphis Grizzlies fans on ESPN.

Well, that's right, you had the Mike Conley.

On ESPN, we had one huge blow-up doll of Greg Oden in a Memphis uniform and one huge blow-up doll of Durant. And oh my God, the amount of alcohol that was consumed that night after it popped up 4, and the radio broadcaster for the Grizzlies like got on the stage and he's like, Chris Bosh was drafted number 4, and everybody was like, congratulations, congratulations, baby.

We fell to 5 that year, and it was like, are they gonna take Jeff Green or Yi Jianlong? And I was like, shoot me, where's the bar?

The chairman, the Ferno, who are you gonna take? You're gonna take a 3.

Oh, I just— all right, before you came on, what Tate was on, I was saying like, I got 6 weeks of Cam Boozer-Caleb Wilson debate. This is gonna be crazy. This is gonna be great because they're— look, I love both of them. I don't think there— there's not like a wrong choice. And that's why— that's why everybody is euphoric, because if you were able to get in the top 4 you're not making the wrong choice. That's how it feels, at least today.

I felt that way because the lottery happened this afternoon. I was like, as long as we get in top 4, I'm cool. I'll take any of them.

I asked, uh, Tate before you guys came on, if OKC offered Jalen Williams to Memphis for the 3rd pick and took back the Caldwell Pope expiring, would you consider it?

I don't think they because I think what's happening now—

I do. He was— what was he, second or third team All-NBA last year? Yeah, yeah, he was like 23.

Here's, here's what I'll tell you, but he's already signed his contract, Bill. Yeah. And one of the things we are learning is that I think this is all evolving where you're going to have to have major contributors on rookie contracts and probably multiple major contributors on rookie contracts.

Well, that was like the Celtics with Joe Mazzulla in the, in the playoffs when guys like Hugo and Oh no, they— he didn't play them. But technically, I agree with you. No, I mean, I think you're right.

That is what's gonna happen because what ends up happening is because you can have second-tier stars, right? So Desmond Bane signs a max and Franz Wagner gets his $180 million. And so then you've got— when— because that's how the only way you're going to keep these guys is by paying them. But there's only so many that actually probably move the needle still enough. And then if you accumulate a couple of them, now that's got to be good enough, right? Like, and you're up against it. And so I do think that the value of— the value now more than ever is getting these guys that are— can contribute immediately, because now you get them for 4 years and you've got a good enough— you're able to build out. You think about even what I just went through with the Grizzlies. Yeah, the best team was when those guys were on their rookie deals. That was the— that's when you were able to have Tyus Jones and De'Anthony Melton and Kyle Anderson and Brandon Clark, and like, your bench was really good too. But I think kind of the only way you can have— like, you're either gonna overpay a bunch of starters, right?

And/or you're gonna have these guys on rookie deals. I think the best teams are gonna be young.

I Well, that's why the Celtics are in such an interesting spot with Jaylen here. If they can try to trade, you know, that, that would be one of the logic, especially with the way that Tate and I talked about how the draft broke where you have like Brooklyn at 6. It was like, well, we don't want to suck again. Can we get a star for this pick? Or Atlanta at 8. And could the Celtics end up, if that's what, if Jaylen does want to leave or they decide maybe it's time, is that the kind of trade that if, if Giannis isn't sitting there trying to get a young guy back on a cheaper, on a cheaper thing, and then try to spend the money elsewhere is the way. You agree with that, House, or would you rather keep Jaylen and make a run at it?

So I, I think you're not that far away if you have both Tatum and Brown, and we kind of have a good track record of that based on this.

Unless Jaylen wants his own team, that's where the problem would—

you, you, you— at some point somebody needs to sit down with him and get to the bottom of this so that we're not dealing with this nonsense, you know, 15-year-old old drama silliness, the twitch and whatever.

Can that person not be Tracy McGrady?

Oh, I— that's— that was— did you see that last night?

I was so happy. What the fuck was that? I watched it. I didn't actually talk to Jalen. I just saw— I noticed the body language, and I was also down 3-1 and blew it, and I know how frustrating that— what are you saying? Also, Jalen just said this was the best year of his career. So his body language was bad. Like, that was a mess, man. They should have rehearsed that one better. We know you talked to Jaylen Brown. It's fine. Just fucking admit it.

I want to say though, to Verno's point, that here in Washington, the defense that the decision makers offer up for why they traded Deni Avdija was because of wanting a core group of guys all between ages 19 and 22 that are basically on the same contract trajectory and let them all come together at the same time. That's why this number 1 pick is especially valuable for the Washington situation, because now you have 4 or 5 guys that are all in that same class, that same category. And it— we'll see if any of them actually, you know, if it plays out. But promising Saar, promising Keyshawn George, promising Will Riley, promising this number 1 overall pick and you put a veteran or two into it and it's interesting.

Well, and you really just need two of them to hit, right? Because yeah, look, Oklahoma City was able to move off of Giddy. Giddy was a hit, right? Like, that's a hit pick. And then by the time it was time to pay him, they're able to swing that into Caruso because they had other ones that were gonna hit, right?

Well, OKC, we got to talk about them really quick. Pick. They're 7-0 in the playoffs. We haven't talked basketball at all. We've been talking about the lottery for a full hour. They're 7-0 in the playoffs. They've— I talked about Thursday night, this AJ Mitchell situation where, you know, he's gonna make $3 million a year next year. And this is a guy who feels like he could almost run his own team at this point. They're— they have the big Jalen Williams contract and big SGA and Chet, and they're gonna have to do some gymnastics pretty soon. They have this 12th pick, which to Verno's this is what you want to do. You want to keep replenishing with these guys in the first 4 years. And it's just, it just feels like they're gonna be in this situation over and over again the rest of the decade. It's really starting to feel like they could be in the finals or the Western Finals, 60+ wins here for, I don't know, next 7, 8 years. This is, and this 12th pick is gonna be a good player.

And you didn't even mention, right? They got the Sorber kid. He doesn't touch the floor. Yeah, he doesn't. And, and Topic, he doesn't touch. I mean, they got 10.

And Wiggins doesn't play anymore. That guy, that guy would've played played minutes for real teams this year. Oh, for sure. He's just— yeah, we— well, no, we don't— we didn't play subs house. Um, so before the lottery, I was on a FaceTime with my dad for 15 to 20 solid minutes. He's still really upset about the Sixers series, and the Knicks series made it worse. Oh yeah, watching the Knicks, which— that game happened tonight. It was a sweep. It was embarrassing. It was really really the most humiliating weekend you could possibly have in Philly, where you not only get waxed by the Knicks, but you have 70 to 75%, like for real, of Knicks fans in there just completely taking over the building. And then by the end of it, you go from a week ago where you had the highs of this Game 7, oh my God, Paul George is in a disaster, hey, Embiid's back, Maxi, Edgecomb, and it's so exciting, to a week later being like, is Darryl gonna get fired? What's gonna happen? How's this gonna play out. I just, my dad was just like, why didn't we do that against Philly?

Why didn't we put Embiid in pick and pop stuff? Why didn't we just hound Maxey? Like, what the fuck were we doing? Yeah.

Especially with the way that obviously they've got a ball dominant guard and Brunson is a drop coverage demolisher, right? It was like Embiid, I don't care what his stats were, he was unplayable. Against them because there's no, there's no good choice to make. You cannot hide him. And to Mike Brown's credit, he was not gonna let him be hidden. He was gonna be put in every single action until you either pulled him off the court or you just lived with us bombing you out. And they just lived with getting bombed out. Yeah.

Well, they did that with the Celtics too, and we didn't make any of the threes, but I also didn't feel like we attacked Embiid like that. House.

Well, I want to be as respectful as possible, but like this version of Celtics fandom, you guys are fucking delusional. You weren't good enough. You didn't have the talent. Oji Anunoby, whose name I'll never get right, and Karl-Anthony Towns are better than what the Celtics put out in terms of a front court. Like you had no answer for Embiid or any of the size. They had no answer for Paul George playing defense. The Knicks are better. The Knicks are better than the Celtics. And the Knicks ran the—

I told my dad we might have been saved by actually getting our ass kicked in a real way by the Knicks, especially if Tatum wasn't 100%.

So, well, because then it convinces you that like, hey, that we got this many wins because we gave an honest effort every night. We were tryhard, right? Sure. And tryhard when the playoffs come around, get exposed because you can't just win. Yeah. By, by with depth and playing hard.

Right. You had a team like that. What was your Memphis team like that recently? Like 4 or 5 years ago? You had a team like that? Oh, sure. Or 3, 3 years ago.

It's why, it's why people didn't believe in them. Right. It's like, because when it comes, when it comes playoff time, like there might be the one Luke Kennard game or there might be the Tyus Jones game. Yeah. But then, but as you, as As you go up levels in the playoffs, they are just gonna hone in on that, and then you're gonna find out, like, okay, I've actually got really 5 that can play in this. I don't really have 10 that can play in this. I mean, hell, even, even in the Minnesota series during one of the Grizzlies' best seasons, they made— they— the Grizzlies benched Steven Adams and played Xavier Tillman at center. Winner because Towns just played him off the floor completely. They were like— and that was in the first round of the playoffs. It's like, once you can— if you give an honest effort and you play hard every single night, you can win a lot of regular season games. And I'll give Missoula and the Celtics credit for doing that. But I think House is right, when it came down to talent, in the end, it's still, you know, Nemias Keita, and it's still Sam Hauser, and it's Yeah, right.

Is it?

And it's not your fault. It's not the Celtics' fault that Embiid came back and was capable of being effective. You couldn't really game plan for Embiid being part of the playoff series.

Also, how, who could have predicted Derrick White being awful?

Like, not like, I know. Well, they put a lot of miles on him.

He was awful.

One of the things we were talking about was Paul George comes back from the suspension. By the way, Skip Bayless, who I can't say I'm a fan of, the playoff P, P-E-E was legitimately funny. House, I'm furious we didn't come up with that joke. All the years we've been together. We never— how do we not come up with Playoff P.E.? Was so good. But he comes back and he's got his legs, and Bede comes back from— I— God only knows where he was, and he has his legs for a week. And then by the, by the time they got to these last two Knicks games, both of them looked like the guys that we picked at our worst contracts draft. So they, they got this little thing. I still feel like the Celtics were a little better than a tryhard team when Tatum came back. I just think the whole thing of bringing him back midseason combined with, uh, them bailing on the bench was pretty weird.

You also started 3 guys that never play in games.

Well, that was, yeah, that was, that was desperate.

That was desperate.

The Ron Harper start will live in infamy. Nobody, nobody still knows what happened with that. Um, can we talk about the Knicks quick? They've won, uh, 3, 7 straight games. Some of it can be attributed to using Towns and, and running more stuff through him and some of the passing, which has been really impressive, and becoming less Brunson-centric. They had a shitload of threes today. I think they were, they were making, they were 9 for 10 at one point from 3 in the first quarter. But, uh, but that what they've done for Towns, which I always kind of wondered why they didn't do it, maybe I didn't, I didn't know if he had it in him, but what they did, it just feels like they're more interesting now, House.

It, it's incredible. And I give Mike Brown a ton of credit. This— got to— of assists that he's, he's gotten at least 6 assists in however many straight games. And tonight, you know, I think he had 7 assists in the first quarter.

And they're real assists. They're not like, I passed you a shot and you dribbled and took a 3. They're like backdoor layups and hitting guys cutting and stuff.

The thing to me with this Knicks team is they have shown us now twice twice, both in, in two different closeout situations that they have another level. And that's what's scary for this run that they're on because they did the exact same thing to Atlanta. Like, yeah, how can they make all of these buckets and get rolling so quickly in a first quarter and basically put the game out of reach in a first quarter? They did it twice. That validates what they did to Atlanta. And the Sixers, you know, I I think comparing them to Atlanta, that was a more formidable foe, a more formidable situation, even though they had 'em down 3-0. Right. But for, for sure, they are, they, they flew today. They were at a different kind of place altogether in terms of the speed and the force that they played that first quarter. And the game was over.

Yeah. That's, that's twice, right? That's twice. Twice. That they, that they've done a team with theoretically their backs against the wall should have a grand slam effort and they just humiliate them.

Slit their throats. I mean, you look at the 7-game winning streak, they won by 16, they won by 29, they won that last game in Atlanta by 51. And then you go in this series and they were— they had a 39-point win, a 14-point win in Game 3 that was actually not even as close, and then the blowout in this game. I like when I'm seeing blowouts in the playoffs with the team like that. That's a different level. That tells you like not only That's— I always— the teams that fall behind always makes me nervous. And what's weird is the Knicks were one of those teams that they always felt like they were down 8-10 with, you know, 8 minutes left. And now, now they're blowing everybody out. They look really good. I mean, this is probably the best time to be a Knicks fan, I would say, since 1994, where you feel like, holy shit, we have a real chance now to win. Even last year, you know, they they obviously were the favorites in the Indiana series. They'd just beaten the Celtics, but they weren't supposed to beat the Celtics. That was a weird series.

Like, they're kicking asses now. And I, I don't know. I, I like, I actually, do you think they'd go toe to toe with one of these West teams, Burno, from what you've seen? Yeah, I do.

I also think that like Detroit was mega physical against them and really bodied them this year. So like, if they can get through that, if they can get through, 'cause I think it will eventually be New York and Detroit. And go look at those games this year. Detroit pumped them out. And so we'll see. I do think they would need like full-on OGN and OB to be able to, to deal with that, right? Because again, you're going up a level. But if they get past that, because they'll be battered and bruised by the time they get through there. But for sure, I mean, I— it's very plausible that we could see, you know, we saw them in the in-season tournament, for what it's worth, right, at the very end. Than, you know, when—

oh, that's so nice of you to bring that up. But you remember, it's a real thing. Yeah, no, I like it. But everybody cares. You want some Adam Silver brownie points?

No, they did care. Well, look, Adam Silver's on my good list. We popped up 3, House popped up 1. Like, that's true. He's— I'm cool today.

Well, you know what happened? Nick Wright and I talked about on Tuesday, the— all the mean stuff LeBron said about the city, they had to atone. Oh, that was— yeah. Vicious comments.

It wasn't just him. We got dogpiled all year. All year.

Draymond, can we build a hotel in Memphis? Can we build a 4-floor Mandarin Oriental or a Montage? I mean, you can't do that, Verno.

I don't know, you're the richest guy I know.

Help us out. I'll invest in it. It's 41 nights a year plus playoffs, right? I think we at least know it's going to be booked some nights. I agree. I've never heard a hotel— what is the hotel that gets this much hatred? We had influencers going down there and doing videos. Like, this is amazing.

The Hyatt, I think. And I mean, like, and the Westin, I suppose, the one across the street. I mean, it's— I guess it's not up to their standard.

NBA people, NBA people and Joe House love, love a good hotel.

I stayed at that Hyatt, and actually I was there at the same time, um, because I went and visited Verno, did the show with Verno, um, and it was during the season, and both the Dallas Mavericks were in for a couple nights, and, and then, uh, Houston Jason was in. I was in an elevator with Shangoon, and it's a very nice Hyatt, but it is not like what they encounter in other cities. And it's a super easy walk straight down the street to, to the, uh, but they want big-ass suites.

Yeah, they want good room service. They do want all that. And, um, we're—

that's what the big conspiracy is. We ain't got enough, you gotta import some. I mean, we We don't have enough flight. I guess we don't have enough flights either.

We're taping this before Game 4 of Timberwolves-Spurs. What Wemby did on Friday night was terrifying. This will— who knows what's gonna happen in Game 4, but that was, I thought, such a fascinating game just for the future of the league that somebody age 22 could do that. I got this email. That I thought was kind of, kind of broke my brain about, about the Wembley situation we're in. Basically, so it's this guy Bradley from LA, Laker fan, and he said, if you look at all the guys who became Hall of Famers who won titles who were under the age of like 24, which is basically Magic Johnson, Kobe, Kareem, Duncan, Magic, Wade, Kawhi, and Bill Russell. That's the list. All of them had an older awesome teammate that helped them win. So Magic had Kareem, Kobe had Shaq, Kareem had Oscar Robertson, Duncan had Robinson, Wade had Shaq, Kawhi had Duncan and Parker and Ginobili, and Russell had Kuzi and Charmin. So the question is, does this mean the Spurs are going to lose, or does this mean Wemby is great enough to break history and become the first guy who's like, I actually don't need a Hall of Fame older teammate.

I'm going to do this myself. Himself. How good is he to you, House? Like, what's the ceiling for you as we head into the next 5 weeks here?

I, I hate to confess this. I'm still stuck on my old guy mindset. I mean, the evidence keeps piling up that he is a one of one capable of sort of vanquishing the entire, you know, 20, 30 year, longer than that history that we've built up that you, there needs to be, there's set to this. So they need to go in and take a loss. I thought that Game 1 against Minnesota was like, welcome to the playoffs. That, that, that's, that's our, you know, they ran through Portland without too much trouble. The first game where they had a team come out with playoff intensity, the playoff physicality, you know, they were constantly in, into Wemby's chest, at his legs the entire game was that Game 1. And yet the ability for San Antonio and Wemby, they just very coolly recalibrate, reset. And that Game 3, um, it, it really challenges the, the old artifice. Yeah.

And maybe this is a new era, Verna. Yeah.

You know, it, there's part of me that thinks it might be, and, and it goes back to what I was saying about teams being young. I remember years ago on The Mismatch, I did this whole bit where where I think the Celtics had lost at some point, and maybe they were like when the Jays were like around 25. And I was like, look, you go back and look through the history of the NBA, and everybody's like 27 before they do it for the first time. And that is Michael Jordan, and that is LeBron James, and that is Steph Curry, and that is Shaq. And name the great players, they're generally— yeah, it's 20, 27 or older. And so we have this expectation but the history of the NBA tells us that. And then Giannis did it at 26, and then Gilgeous-Alexander did it last year, I think at 26. And so that number may just keep getting lower. It might, like, you know what I mean? Like, because I've already had to lower it from 27. It's like, yeah, right, we gotta kind of gotta wait until they're 27, you know. They become men, they've probably settled down, you know, they figured out, you know, they figured out the game, they've got a lot of reps and whatever.

But it's interesting, if there is anybody that would be different, it certainly stands to reason that it would be him because he is— I, I think we throw around that he is unlike anything we've ever seen, but he's truly unlike anything in the history of the world. So, right. Why not him?

I was texting, don't ask, but I was texting about Caitlin Clark with a couple people yesterday about— well, I don't ask. Well, it was, it was, it was David Letterman house. We had David Letterman and John Amazing. Of course it was. No, of course it was. No, but she, she had a, like, not a great first game, right? And, and I was, I was thinking in my head about comparing her to Wemby, where same kind of spotlight, same kind of being tested by everyone in the league over and over again. And in Caitlin's case, it doesn't seem like she's handled it 100% well. Like, last year it felt like the entire league was, was coming at her, right? And really trying to test her and be physical with her. And really seemed like almost like the other people on the other teams like genuinely disliked her. And she was in all these non-sports conversations and, you know, kept bringing— getting brought in as a political tool. And it didn't seem like she was enjoying that part. It felt like to me, like, I know nothing, but it felt like a little bit of her joy was gone.

And some people, it's a lot when it's all getting thrown at you, right? And I look at Wemby and he's the opposite. He's like, fucking bring it on. I've been training for this my whole life. You're going to be physical with me. I'm going to make you pay. And I think that's been the most impressive thing to me, that at age 22, he's wired the way he's wired, where he's got so much fuck you in him already. But nobody really hard to mess with him.

Nobody resents him, though. That league resented Caitlin Clark. They resented the fact that that's all anybody wanted to talk about. But they're also right. Like, they've kind of been there, they've done that. They're great players and they're their own right. You know, the A'ja Wilsons of the world had been winning MVPs and championships, and yet it's like all anybody wanted to talk about was Caitlin Clark. And so it had this resentment.

There was enough you could chip away at it, because the difference with Wemby, right, is if you play against him or you even go see him in person— and I know we've all had the same experience— you're just like, holy shit. Yeah, like, this is like even 3— you saw him in person, right, House? It's like 3 times crazier than I was expecting.

And so I haven't seen him in person yet, but I, I just would say it's a luxury for Wemby. He's arrived in a very well-established league with a well-established collective bargaining agreement and pay, you know, pay structures. I mean, they brought him along how they could. The situation with the WNBA was radically different, and Caitlin Clark arrived with a giant fan base. She dragged people over to that product because they were so enamored of her college performance. She was a one-of-one in college in terms of that shooting, and she reminded us of Steph Curry. Like, wow, we haven't seen anybody shoot like this before, and now I'm a fan of Steph. And she came over, and all of a sudden there's eyeballs, lots of eyeballs on the WNBA for the first time. And, and they're in the middle of, uh, about a collective bargaining agreement that's about to expire, and the entire pay scale needs to be reset, and the TV deals need to be all set. And she did bear the brunt of a lot of that because she was the one that generated the interest that propelled the whole thing upwards. The prices they're getting for expansion teams, she singularly, to my way of thinking, is responsible for the entirety of that.

And she missed most of last season by being hurt. And so all she had—

and the team did well without her, which is another thing. Yeah. So there's, there's ways to pick at it. It's interesting though. Yeah. So we'll see with Wemby today.

She's way more famous too. Way more famous. Do you think your wives know who Victor Wembanyama is?

I think this— the last couple months, I think it's been happening.

Do you think your wife knows who Victor Wembanyama is?

She definitely does because she does— the TV is on basketball in my house. It's not fair for me. That's fair. That's fair. I have a 15-year-old too. He— I just don't—

I just don't think she— but he's not famous like she is.

She was Was there any PCU that thought OKC was gonna lose a game to the Lakers?

No, not after, not after watching that stupid Houston series. I mean, that was so abominable that you watched that and it was like, yeah, I mean, though, that's, it felt like two non-playoff teams that we were forced to watch playing each other in the playoffs.

I mean, I don't know how that ended up being the worst matchup, but it was a 4-5. I know. It felt like they were the two worst teams.

Well, because they didn't have Luka and they didn't have Durant. Right. You know what I mean? I mean, it was, it was, it was pretty rough to watch. So, and again, another team that can expose you like Oklahoma City. And, and you know that like you have no chance unless your turnovers are low. That's your only chance against Oklahoma City is playing with low turnovers. And they're gonna go out with a backcourt of Marcus Smart and Luke Kennard. Yeah. I mean, that's, that, that's a tough pill. It's sad.

I, it's gonna be really interesting to see who's at that game tomorrow cuz it's clearly gonna be a sweep. It's a Monday night. It's not like OKC fans are taking it over. I, I think it's gonna have, it's gonna be definitely a weird energy game. Plus, how's the Laker fans lost their celebrity road title? The Knicks fans are just murdering them. Oh, this is a rout. I think Boston might have better celebrity fans than the Lakers at this point.

I love what you're doing, but it's, it's not comparable. I mean, this Knicks team has legit ambition to get to the Eastern Conference Finals. It was always Eastern Conference Finals bust for the Knicks team. That's what they did last season. The energy entering the season was high. The Lakers were always a work in progress. And, and you know Los Angeles as well as anybody now that you've been there for 25 years. It's a sea to be seen kind of place. Do you want to be seen?

They're real fans too though. I, I gotta, as much as I can't stand the Lakers, I gotta get about the courtsides.

We're talking about the real fans.

They've never replaced the aura of Jack, and I remember writing about this like 15 years ago, they'd never— Leo never really wanted it, honestly. He kind of let down the fan base. He wants it.

Yeah, Chalamet at road games, Spike, Spike Lee and Chalamet at road games, that's a, that's a different level, right? Like, we— to travel to the game, I know it's close travel, but still Still to have your, to have your, you know, your celebrity fans in the opposing arena, that's something.

Yeah.

Who's an it guy in Los Angeles right now or, or gal that you could put courtside that would capture the moment and that would feel like, oh, this, this is taking it up a notch. I mean, I think you have to go music.

So like Kendrick Lamar, I think they have to grab, yeah, I think they'd have to grab Kendrick. Ironically, the guy that handles his career, Anthony, huge Laker fan, obviously doesn't care about the Lakers. He won't put Kendrick at a game.

Well, Anthony told me Anthony told me to whip my dick out on this show today because he, he knew how excited I was.

Yeah, thank God. No, but maybe you have to do more musicians and not do the, not do the actors as much.

Well, they still got Flea, right?

Yeah, that's the thing. They haven't replenished. It's like a, it's like an aging contender that hasn't replenished their thing.

You know what I just thought of? Who? Where's my man Jimmy Goldstein?

He's still, he's going all these games. They don't put him on camera anymore.

Yeah, there's, there's a, there's a story there. Oh, there is?

Yeah. No.

Well, um, he used to, he used to be it. They used to show him at every game.

It doesn't help what we're talking about. We want somebody that, that's 30 years old or, or, you know, under the age of 40.

Last topic before we go. Detroit-Cleveland. Uh, I had Cleveland yesterday. I wagered on them. And they barely pulled it out and they wouldn't have pulled it out if, if James Harden didn't turn back into James Harden for like 3 minutes. He sucked the whole game and then for 3 minutes became James Harden again. Cleveland, I don't think has lost a home game, right? In the playoffs. And hold on, timeout, 20 seconds.

Yeah. Would you have rather lost the bet and Harden missed all those shots or Cleveland.

Yeah, just for the Harden story. No, I wanted to win the bet.

You wanted to win the bet?

Yeah, I needed one after I— and it's way, it's way funny. The Knicks have been profitable as well, House. We have been, we've been grabbing the Knicks lately.

Well, hell, you could have a minus 30.

The Knicks were minus like 1.5 today. Like, who thought Philly was winning today? That, I thought that was Crazy. Crazy. But anyway, what do we think happens? What do we think happens in Cavs-Pistons here? Do you believe, did the Cavs do anything to make you believe in them or no?

No, I, I do not. I do not believe the Cavaliers are gonna beat the Pistons. I, I just, I, I have Detroit in 5.

I think they win game 4 and game 5. I do as well.

It's a weird one cuz I don't feel like Cleveland's playing the right line. Lineups. Now granted, I'm a guy on my couch in LA, you know, and I'm not, not spending every minute with the team, but like, unless Sam Merrill's hurt, I don't understand why they're not playing him more. I don't understand why they only play one big instead of two. I don't understand why they play Wade when every time Wade's in, it feels like it's a disaster. I would've pulled Harden. I know Harden came through down the stretch. I wouldn't have played him in the last 6 minutes 'cause he's such a defensive liability. But I don't know, do you think they'll— it just seems like Atkinson's gonna go down with the with this, this two bigs, Harden, Mitchell, and a shooter. And he's like, I guess, I guess this is win or lose. I don't know if I agree.

I also think that, you know, I know JB Bickerstaff from his time in Memphis and I know he feels he got, he feels like he got screwed there, like that he got blamed there. Yeah. And he, and he coached Donovan Mitchell and he coached Devin Booker. Mobley, and he coached Jared Allen, and he coached James Harden when he was in Houston. He knows all those guys. So if there's anybody that knows how to make those guys look like a semblance of them, uh, you know, or a shell of themselves, it would be him. A guy that has really— he's been— he knows what, you know, the way to defend those guys. He watched it every night. He coached all of those guys. And so I am unsurprised that he's got a good game plan against those guys to make them super uncomfortable. Also, they just don't have— I don't think they have the requisite toughness. I just don't. Like, they just— yeah, they know. Verno knows because he's an OG.

Where's that Mobley at?

Where's that Mobley at? Also, like, how— what— they give up wide open threes at the worst possible times to a team that's not even that good at shooting threes other than Robinson. Cade's the best guy in the series. Cleveland's going to be the most interesting offseason team, I think, if they— if Verna's right and they lose the next two. Did you say that, or how's that?

No, no, I think I agree with him. I agree.

Yeah. So if that happens, I'm prepared for anything with Cleveland. And also, like, you know, Mitchell, at this point, there, there's a small piece missing with him in these playoff games. That Brunson seems to have, which is ironic because Mitchell was the guy the Knicks wanted all the time. And maybe this will be the Mitchell moment because this Detroit team is a bitch to play against, right? They have all these dudes they could throw at him and throw it hard in. And, but I don't know, it's, it's like I keep waiting for his moment and maybe it's just going to be one of those careers where it never happens, you know, like, or be on the next team. Or the next team. Maybe it'll be in Memphis. So we all think, we all think this ends in 5? Yes. I mean, I know I do. Yeah. All right, so that would be, that's +240 on, uh, on FanDuel. Oh, okay. Yeah, if you're interested.

Well, then they must be, then they're obviously the underdog tomorrow night. So that's a, I mean, because they're going to be favored in 5. Well, no matter, no matter what happens tomorrow Underdog +3.5 tomorrow. Yeah, no matter, no, let me have it. Yeah, no matter what happens tomorrow night, they're going to be favored in Game 5.

All right, we're gonna go because San Antonio, uh, Oklahoma— uh, can't— San Antonio, Minnesota.

Who do you guys think the great— who do you— who would you take? I want to get you both on the record right now. Hey, I'll let you change in the next month and a half, but if you had the 3rd pick and it was the Bansta, I'll give you the Bansta. The house, Vance Peterson. And then the debate that I'm gonna be having with everybody for the next 6 weeks is going to be Wilson or Boozer.

Before you came on, I told Simmons and Tate that I think that, that Caleb is more of a Memphis kind of, of player. The dynamic, uh, uh, ability, the, um, he could be a 3 or a 4. I think he fits what I've come to understand is what your decision makers, the like, they like that flexibility. And if that kid can, can play defense the way that, um, Cedric Coward plays defense, that's pretty formidable.

I know I heard you last week, Bill. You love Wilson. And I do. There's no way you can watch these playoffs and not think, boy, he fits in these.

Yeah, it's funny because when the way the, the way the draft fell, Memphis got 3, and Boozer just seemed like such a clear M Memphis guy just 'cause, you know, competitive. I liked how he handled himself even when they fell apart and that when his brother screwed up the NCAA game and he was just like, like he, he didn't, he was the only one that didn't seem rattled by it. But I think the Wilson upside is, I just can't believe the tape with him. I don't want to say he really seems special, but potentially I do.

I do think number one, the Memphis front office loves analytics. And they also in this new era, I do think are going to try to atone for the mistakes made with Morant, right? They want to make it all about the team, not elevate a star above everybody else that then gets bigger than the operation and all. And think that that led to a lot of the things that ended up, you know, the, the, the, the car went off the cliff. And Boozer is like, he is as safe as safe comes. There is 0% chance he's going to suck. There's a pretty good chance he's going to be awesome. And there's 100% chance— well, I don't want to say 100%, but an 80% chance you never hear— I don't even know if he's on social media, right? He's not A+ character. Yeah. Nothing controversial. Nothing. It's like, it's like the anti, it's like, no, he's like in a rom-com.

He's like the, they're heading toward the wedding in the, in the beginning of the rom-com and he's like the perfect guy on paper. He's got everything. And yet that, yeah, Caleb Wilson's over there. It's like the bartender, like, whoa, look at that guy. And all of a sudden we have a love triangle. Caleb Wilson, if you, there's YouTube clips of him, you just watch 10 minutes of him and you're like, is this guy Sean Kemp crossed with Gonna be honest, I know, and he's so electric, and I keep thinking of him and Caleb together. So you have that, but then you have Memphis, grit and grind, analytics. This guy is just like a guaranteed— so it's a really tough one, but it might be Memphis's one chance to get like a super duper star. I don't think Caleb— I don't think Cam Boozer is going to be a super duper star. I think he'll— I think he'll be a star and like a couple All-NBA second or third teams kind guy. But Caleb Wilson could be like— I don't know what he's gonna be, House. I'm literally prepared for anything. I agree.

The two good choices though, Verno. I don't think it's—

well, if you, if you threw him like that, him and Bozelis would have some crazy ass dunks in Chicago. They, they would make the Bulls fun for the first time in forever.

Well, Tate made the key point, like Caleb is a chip on the shoulder guy, and if he, if he's fourth in a class of Oh yeah, that's it. It's like boom going on there. Um, I— the great thing is you can't lose. Yeah, like, and it's a position you needed. Oh yeah, you traded Jaren Jackson, which I, as you know, I supported that trade. We argued about Jaren Jackson a million times. I was never a Giant fan. I'm pretty sure you can replace his 5.7 rebounds a game. I don't know if you've figured out how to, how to put those together there yet.

One of the guys we argued about was Mobley, by the way.

True. Maybe everybody, maybe everybody was a loser. We're all, we're all—

and, and the other thing is this, we also got lucky because Sacramento ain't up there and Brooklyn ain't up there, and those are Morant homes. Those are possible, right, that if you don't hit the lot, if you just crapped on your fans again in and you missed out and you're not gonna get a new shiny toy to sell those suites and season tickets, right? You got—

so you think Morant's gone whatever happens? Yes. That's your take? Yeah.

But I mean, and, and maybe you push Morant and 16 in and now you're moving up again. You know what I mean? Like, I do think that, I do think that because it could have gone different if like Sacramento or Brooklyn ends up with DeBancsa or like say they went 1-2 in this or 1-3 in this. Maybe it's a little different world, but I do think that those are possible landing spots when the trade stuff comes around, just because they're gonna need something to sell. And he is fun as hell. He is fun as long as he plays. He is fun. I—

Brooklyn could be your outcome there. Last thing before we go: OKC right now is -170 to win the title on FanDuel. San Antonio is +320. The Knicks are +750. 50. What's your favorite bet out of those three, Verno?

So I think I would say just odds-wise, Knicks.

Yeah, I think, I think, yeah, I mean, +750 is like good odds. Yeah.

Is Anunoby going to be able to be 100% by the time we get to the NBA Finals? And it almost feels like if he's not If not, then I don't like it. And honestly, like, look, Oklahoma City's obviously the, the, that's last on that. How about this? What is Detroit? Plus a billion? Like, I mean, 'cause they're not 18 to 1. Oh wow. I mean, again, Minnesota 150 to 1, although that game is starting right now.

Yeah, I think that, yeah, I think, I think probably Minnesota missed their game 3 was they, if they could have beaten San Antonio in game 3. With Wemby having a game like that. They just couldn't hit a shot. Look at McDaniels, was like 5 for 22, like nothing was going in. Randle was bad. Um, all right, Verna, we can listen to you on the mismatch. Yep. Um, I'm excited to hear where you finally— where— so you've landed on Caleb? It's out.

Yeah. No, no, no, I'm not late.

So you made us pick and then you didn't even do a lean.

He needs to milk it. He's got 6 weeks.

If you put— if you put my head on a guarantee today, I'd tell you they'd Boozer, but I wanna watch this whole thing play out.

I'mma lean toward, I'mma lean toward Caleb Wilson.

But I may prefer Wilson by the time it all comes around.

Yeah. I'm ready to change my mind.

It's gonna be a fun 6 weeks.

And would you rather have House take DeBancsa or would you rather have him move back a spot and flip picks with Utah and grab some stuff?

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Do not do this. No, you get AJ DeBancsa. All right. The first time I heard about AJ DuBanz, that he was 13, and the guy told— called me and said, I just saw the next one. And I've had that. I'm telling you, there's people with the legend of Peterson.

There's legend of Peterson also is out there.

No, I mean, they know that, Bruno. DuBanz is going to be a major, major star.

You cannot pass on it, bro. In 22 games of Anthony Davis before he gets hurt, it's going to be amazing.

He's on the trade block. We're gonna be—

you guys see that thing going around about how the way to get the number 1 pick is to trade for Anthony Davis?

Because the last 2, 3 times—

what was the 3rd time? It was Dallas did it.

Pelicans, right?

Or no, no, but they, they traded him though. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Or they, they hadn't traded him. You do trade him. Yeah, you have to trade him. I think it's like it follows like the whole horror movie. Um, all right, thanks to Verna, thanks to Joe House.

Technical difficulties, we made it work, we made it work.

Thanks to our guy Tay Frazier, thanks to Cahal and Eduardo as well. New Rewatchables coming tomorrow, um, Tropic Thunder, exciting stuff. Congrats to these two guys, the first and third picks in the NBA lottery, uh, and we'll see you, uh, next Sunday night on Netflix. Must be 21+ and present in select states. For Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18+ and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877-833-2277 8 Hope NY, or text Hope NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.