Transcript of The Red-Hot Knicks, OKC’s Beat-Up-Wemby Ploy, a Mini-Mailbag, and ‘Survivor 50’ | With Rob Mahoney, Jason Concepcion, and Mallory Rubin New

The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The Conference Finals finally is here. We are down to 4 teams. Think you know it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel. Get closer to the action. And as you know, I've been telling you for years, FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay. For a shot at a better payout, or try live betting and jump into the action after tip-off, or just follow me and my picks because every once in a while I'll put them on social. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21+ select states or 18+ DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat. Connecticut. ¡Bill Simmons Podcast! Live here on Netflix. Rob Mahoney is here, one of the stars of Euphoria Season 3. I think you've done a great job. Coming up on this podcast, Rob and I are gonna talk about Knicks, Cavs. The Knicks are up 2-nothing. We're gonna talk some OKC, San Antonio. We're gonna do a mailbag. And then a little bit later on, Jason Concepcion and Malie Rubin together talking Survivor 50, 3 hours last night on CBS.

So that is the plan for tonight. All right, 9 straight playoff wins for the Knicks. I'm gonna start here. We had some injuries in the game last night, San Antonio, OKC. I don't know, Harper, it seems like might be back for game 3, but definitely not 100%. And then J Dub, who knows? Deren Fox high ankle sprain. The Knicks have won 9 straight playoff games. Is it fair to start thinking about the title if you're a Knicks fan at this point?

God, I mean, now you're just daring them, right?

To— Yeah.

You don't want to get ahead of it. Here, let's, let's look at it this way. Josh Hart came out of Game 1 with a ton of humility and was like, I understand this isn't about me. I'm going to do whatever the team needs me to do. I'm going to accept my role in the series. And the basketball gods rewarded him. With one of the shooting performances of his life. So if you're a Knicks fan, I would say don't do anything that's gonna get you in trouble. Be responsible out there, including not looking too far ahead, even though it is very tempting right now.

Take it one game at a time. But I will say this, I thought the winner of Spurs and, uh, and Thunder was gonna be the winner of the 2026 title. The injuries are definitely gonna even things out. Plus the fact that the Knicks have been on a heater, I was really impressed how they attack Cleveland, because at halftime the Cavs hadn't shot that well. And yet it was a close game, which I always, I thought the Knicks were gonna win tonight, but it was a close game at halftime and it felt like the Cavs hadn't gotten going. And I was like, this is interesting. Hart took 12 shots in the first half. That's a bad sign. You don't want him to take the most shots on your team. Are the Cavs gonna make a run? What? And then all of a sudden the Knicks went the other way. They went on an 18-nothing run. In the, uh, in the third quarter. Hart did end up taking the most shots, right?

Yeah, he had a ton of shots.

I mean, he took 21.

He took the most shots by any Knick not named Jalen Brunson at any point in these playoffs. So it was, oh my God, and was dared to do it. And I, I have to say, is, do you think there's anything more satisfying for a role player than this? Than being dared to be a scorer when you don't have that reputation, you deliver in this huge way, in this huge moment, and you get the satisfaction of winning. You get the satisfaction of scoring a bunch of points. You get the satisfaction of proving people wrong. And you get really the icing on the cake, just getting to rub it in constantly after every 3, after every like drive. It's just gotta be a pretty sweet night for Josh Hart.

Yeah, it's like a double middle finger.

Just let him fly.

Really gonna give me this again? I'm making him. Josh Hart, I don't know if every playoff team has a guy like this, but Josh Hart is definitely the, if he's playing well, the Knicks seem pretty unstoppable guy. Yeah. Right. We've seen this in playoff series. We saw this in some regular season games when he's going. They just suddenly look pretty, pretty formidable. I thought Brunson was outstanding tonight.

Yeah.

In a way, like a better game than he played in Game 1, even though he went on that, you know, heroic heater down the stretch. I thought the game management tonight, you know, figuring out immediately what they were doing. He went back to his old Villanova running the show kind of ways. They just dissected that. That trap at the top. They were playing 4-on-3. I liked everything they did. I, I gotta say, like, I gotta hand it to Mike Brown. I thought the Knicks were, like, really well coached in that game. I was impressed.

Really well coached for the last several weeks. I mean, they've just looked like a team that has answers to everything, that knows exactly when to pivot and how. And yeah, if you're looking at the box score for this game, it may feel like Jalen Brunson was under wraps. He was seeing a lot of pressure, and you're right, he was so surgical about it. And I think a huge part of why the Knicks are here now and they feel as dominant as you mentioned up top is they've reached this point of, of stability in their offense where no one feels like a specialist. Like Josh Hart can have a game like this that's explosive, but Mikal Bridges was doing everything offensively and it was awesome. KAT is driving really responsibly and hitting threes and posting up. OG Anunoby can overwhelm like any defender in front of him at almost any time right now. They're just in such a comfortable place because all of these guys get to be dynamic. And that's a credit to Mike Brown, but it's also a credit to Jalen Brunson for understanding how to tap into everybody.

And Bridges got going really since midway through that Atlanta series where that trade seemed like a disaster. Then it didn't seem like that bad of a disaster. Now it's like, hey, if they don't make that trade, maybe they don't win the Finals. But I really like how he's playing. I thought he was really good in Game 1. And in general, like, you know, you have guys sacrificing all over the place on a team like this. But as you get closer, this is 10 playoff wins for them now, as you get closer, to the ring, suddenly it doesn't matter. And that's why somebody like Josh Hart, who's a little embarrassing for him game 1, but he's ready to go game 2. There were a couple other things that happened though. The Cavs bench was awful.

Yeah.

And I don't, so at home, whatever you're gonna get, whatever you're gonna get from your bench guys. But one of the things I liked about, so Merrill was 1 for 8, Struis was 1 for 7, Tyson was 1 for 4. Dean Wade, Wade Sardine was 1 for 3. Yeah.

So combined, that's 12% for those guys.

Yeah. And Merrill, I thought it was interesting. They were— Legler noticed it. Legler was talking about it during the game, like that he, that he was getting a little hangdoggy. And I was thinking about, you know, the half bang from the end of game 1 with Merrill.

Yeah.

The bah, whatever that was. And that not going in, it felt like he carried that into this game. He, he's kind of like, I really thought he was becoming like a real playoff guy. Yeah. And like a guy that when he was open, you just felt like it was going in and now that felt like that's going sideways. They had to rely on Schroeder, which has been fool's gold for what, 13 teams in the league at this point?

Including this one. I mean, he hasn't been good for 6 straight games now. Like just really has not made an impact and they have to play him and he needs to handle the ball because otherwise Donovan Mitchell and James Harden are just gonna get run into the ground. So he has to be out there unfortunately.

Yeah. The, the things I didn't like about this Cavs team when you just talked about, could this team win 3 straight rounds? Can they guard people like Maxie and people like, like Brunson? Could they guard those kind of the smaller scoring guards?

Yeah.

They give up a lot of threes. Usually they're open. That's just kind of who they are defensively. They're a middle of the road defense team. You saw that today too. And, and it just feels like the Knicks are starting to look like a bad matchup for them. The Knicks were asleep for the first 3 quarters of Game 1. But since then have been in control of the series. And I don't, I don't know what the moves are here for the Cavs, which I of course said after game 1 of OKC-San Antonio, and then the move was just to go big and, and bully and grab and pull Wemby's arms for 4 quarters.

Shockingly effective if you can get away with it.

Yeah. I'm not sure what the moves are here. Like even looking at the minutes, Allen played 28, um, and it was a -20. Uh, Mobley played 36. They were trying at one point, they had 3 guards with Tyson and Mobley and They're just trying all kinds of different things and they, they can never really land on anything. So what's, what's the answer? What do they do?

Well, I mean, the big question is, do you want to continue to guard Josh Hart like this? Like, do you want to try this again, or do you have to go completely back to the drawing board in terms of the coverage? I ask this, and it may seem crazy after the game that Josh Hart just had, but it's like, if they aren't guarding him this way, they don't have a lot of defensive alternatives. Like, it's, it's really hard to contain Jalen Brunson. It's really hard to keep James Harden from getting switched into that matchup, as we saw in Game 1, when you don't have like a Jarrett Allen just kind of shadowing everything on the back line. And so they have to make a lot of hard defensive decisions. Offensively, I just think if you're, if your role players are shooting like this, you're gonna lose. Like, there's really not a lot you can do to adjust to that. To the point that, I mean, one of my favorite looks for the Cavs is Harden and Allen, and they put 3 shooters around them. Usually it's Dwyane Wade, Max Struis, Sam Merrill, all 3 of those guys, it's often like as clean and easy as Cleveland's offense will ever look.

They will rack up points for little bursts of time when that group is out on the floor. But if 3 of those guys can't shoot, you're cooked. Like it, it kind of is that simple. Those guys are gonna have to play better. They're gonna have to make some kind of adjustment defensively. I actually would not bail on leaving Josh Hart just yet because of that desperation, because of the lack of alternatives. I think they should make him prove it one more time before they really go back to the drawing board on it. But look, they were gonna be behind the 8-ball in this series. The Knicks have played like a juggernaut. The Cavs have been great survivors, but it's not as if they have all of these options to toggle between.

So they, the heart decision.

Yeah.

Atkinson after the game and, and in the interviews yesterday was talking about, he was doing some 1% thing, how hard the Brunson shots were, which I agreed with. I said that after the game, I thought the shot making was extraordinary by Brunson. There was only maybe 2 of those times where it really felt like Harden got cooked. But for the most part, those are really hard shots.

But also guess what? He's Jalen Brunson and he hits a lot of really hard shots.

Yeah. But I, but I guess my question is, you seem like you're overreacting to the last 8 minutes of the game and underreacting to the first 40.

Yeah.

And then they swing completely the other way and they're like, here's what we're gonna do. We're leave, we leave Harden open. Once he starts making a couple, I'm getting rid of that strategy, especially at home. Like I could see doing that in Cleveland, but it just felt like the more comfortable he was getting, you know, we see this sometimes with the Hack-a-Shaq. Well, they'll start doing the Hack-a-Shaq and then the guy will start making 'em.

Yeah.

And he almost gets in a groove with shooting 'em and then it's like, all right, stop. Like he's in a groove now. I always thought with Hack-a-Shaq, you should be doing it sporadically. Like you do it, you don't do it, you do it. Like you kind of keep the guy on the heels. I would've tried that with, almost treated this like a football game with Hart. Where sometimes we leave him alone, sometimes we don't.

Yeah.

And just try to mix it up. I don't, just didn't love the strategy. I have not loved the coaching in this series. And then there's the Mitchell piece too about, is he hurt? Is he not hurt? 'Cause in the first quarter they're showing us replays of him and it looks like he's dragging his leg, then he is doing a Eurostep. Like what's going on with him?

I think he's definitely hurt. I mean, even injured players can have athletic moments and we've seen some of those from Donovan Mitchell.

Yeah.

But you'll see him just like absolutely chugging, working super hard just to run up the floor on of these possessions. So I don't know what it is that's ailing him, but he's not his explosive best all the time. He is a, like, he's a great shooter and he's so strong and his footwork is so good. He's just going to like by force of will be an impact player in a lot of these games, but I don't think he has it there all the time. And James Harden clearly doesn't have it there all the time. And this is maybe the critical flaw in the Cavs design is with both of those guys playing that way, so much of what Jarrett Allen and Evan Mobley do offensively is drafting off of the attention that Donovan Mitchell and James Harden get. And that's why you saw like Evan Mobley put up 10 points in the first quarter of this game like it was nothing. Super easy.

Yeah.

All like with that, like playing within the flow of the game. 4 points the rest of the way because the Knicks changed their defense a little bit, overreacted a little less, made these guys earn it. Also got out to Evan Mobley on some of his shots too, to take away the Josh Hart style open looks they were giving him. Jarred Allen is kind of a similar thing. Like it's as soon as you contain the dribble penetration, those are not two bigs who are gonna force it, who are gonna put up a bunch of points unless they're working the offensive glass. And that evaporated for the, for the Cavs over the course of this game too.

Yeah. Allen and Mobley at halftime were 23 and 10.

Yep.

That did not continue. And then Harden had 12 points at halftime with about halfway through the fourth quarter, he still had 12 points.

Yeah.

And it was like, what? Oh, is he, is he out there? And then he had a couple, couple late kind of after the game was decided. I don't know, Rob, I don't know what the move is. The Cavs have been better at home for the most part. Mm-hmm. Even if they did have that Game 6 stinker, I think the variable that's gonna be different this time, you're gonna have Knicks fans there. I don't know what the number is, but it's gonna be more than you think. And the Knicks fans travel. Yes. They seem to be everywhere. Cleveland is just close enough to like 4 different cities. there'll be secondary market stuff and I have a feeling there's gonna be, I don't know, maybe 15, 20% there. So the energy's gonna be a little different than maybe a Cleveland-Detroit game. And then we'll see, like, is Mitchell healthy? Are they gonna do the same thing with Struce again? Is this just the Knicks time? Like, it's really starting to feel that way with the Brunson, the way, you know, kind of flipping the, gravity of that Halliburton game a year ago.

Yeah.

And kind of, kind of resetting that. And then you see the celebrities, what a great ticket. I didn't realize that we talked about this when I did the pod 2 days ago.

Mm-hmm.

I thought the crowd seemed pretty great, but they also mute the microphone. So there was a lot of good fan video that came out from the lat— from the 24 hours after the game with some of the different shots. And like, that crowd was like delirious. And everybody who was there that I knew was like, that's the best crowd I've bet on in a while. And it just feels like that's— it's now you're down 2-0.

Yeah.

You have to win game 5. You have to either sweep the Cleveland games and win game 5 in New York, or you have to win 5 and 7 in New York. And I, I just don't see it with this Cavs team.

It was gonna be difficult no matter what. But I, I wonder, you, you raised the point of the traveling fan base. Yeah. Is this one of the new inefficiencies in the league, having the Eastern Conference like regional Geography on your side where you can travel, having a fan base with disposable income who's gonna make the trip to Cleveland, right? Can we get like a, does Timothée Chalamet have like a super PAC where he's just like funding busses? You know, let's, let's get people over there. I just think there's an opportunity here for any celebrity with some money to spend to really make an actual impact on the atmosphere of these games.

We've started seeing this in baseball in the last 15 years first. And now it seems like it's trickled in basketball. It was certainly the case with the Celtics. Like they would play in these. Random cities like Phoenix, New Orleans, and it would be like 5,000 Celtic fans there. You could see it with the Knicks, definitely. See it definitely with the Lakers.

Oh yeah.

The gener— the teams with the generational fans seem like they can take 15 to 25% of a stadium for big games.

So we'll see. Or 80% if it's Philly, apparently. It's right.

Or 80%. It can be blue. Yeah, that was bad. So we have the Knicks are down -820 on FanDuel. Knicks sweep is +250.

It's not going to be a sweep. The Cavs are, I think they're too good for that.

You sure?

I mean, I'm sure, I feel sure that they're supporting players.

The Knicks haven't lost in 3 weeks.

They haven't. But here's the thing. It's like in a game like this, you see the dominoes falling where Josh Hart shooting the way he does opens things up for Jalen Brunson, who then is attacking like more open coverage, spraying out to everybody. Everything is building on itself. And on the other side, Donovan Mitchell, who isn't moving super well, is now seeing multiple defenders in front of him every possession because no one around him can hit a shot. And the bigs are like trying to do the dirty work, but ultimately aren't attracting a lot of attention. If either of those things flips, right, Josh Hart makes a few fewer shots. If any Cavs role player starts hitting shots, then you see the dynamic and the balance of this game shift pretty dramatically with it. I just think we're gonna get one game where that's the case, whether it's the classic role players shoot better at home type of influence, whether it is like a one-game James Harden explosion, whatever that looks like. The Cavs are a team that when their backs are against the wall have responded with some of the most impressive efforts of these playoffs.

So I, I don't want to write them off and say we're, we're headed quite down that darker road.

Cavs in 5 or Knicks in 5 is +190 and that would be my bet because I think you're right. I think there's gonna be a game where the role guys make shots.

Yeah.

Even tonight I felt, especially in the first half, I thought the Cavs were getting good shots. I like the shots they're getting. They just weren't going in. They're getting open threes. They're getting good Mitchell shots. Mobley was doing whatever he wanted in that first 6 minutes. And I liked how they played. The results just weren't really there.

Nope.

Unfortunately. Mike Brown for Tibbs, looking pretty good.

Huge upgrade. Huge adjustment.

The Bridges trade looking all right.

Mm-hmm.

Towns trade, solid.

Back to a win.

I mean, the Shamet signing, I mean, pretty good. Like, there's been some good moves here.

I'm not exaggerating when I say the Landry Shamet signing might be like a monumental move in retrospect for the Knicks. Like, his, his ability to give them important minutes, to be a floor spacer. In Game 1, they go on that run because they have enough shooters to take Josh Hart off the floor. In Game 2, Josh Hart becomes one of those shooters, so it's not a problem, but The Knicks bench has been awesome and it's been awesome because it's been cultivated over the course of the entire year in a way that, if we're all being honest about it, Tibbs would never.

You're right. There should be a basketball reference or a cleaning the glass stat. Do I think it's going in? Mm. And Shamet, I, I think I was probably like 25% with him for most of his career. Now I'm, now I think it's going in.

Who else is high on that list? Like, who else is disproportionately high on the belief versus the actual percentage?

Well, in the Spurs-Thunder series, I just think every Vassell shot's going in now. I think he might be 100. And it may, I don't know why. I just feel like, and Champagny's another one, even though he wasn't good in game 2. I always feel like his shots are going in too, but Vassell right now is in a groove where it just doesn't seem like it matters if he's falling left, falling right, falling backwards, it's going in.

Catches it in the air, whatever. Like he, he, he makes just like preposterous shots. I, I think those, those two guys are great. Devin Booker's another one of those guys for me who I'm always like, I feel like it's going in. And then you look at the percentages and it's like mid, mid-30s from 3. It's like a beautiful jumper, but it doesn't always hit.

We have Pritchard as the best Celtic for this. Every time he misses, I'm so upset.

Is that not just you?

No, I just can't believe— I'm always thinking it's going in with him. Like, I still haven't gotten over his corner 3 in the Gabe Settling Philly thing. I still can't believe that didn't go in. All right, so we, let's move to Spurs-Thunder because that's probably a more interesting series for a lot of reasons. A lot of talk about the physicality today.

Sure.

So there's two kinds of physicality, right? I like the first kind of playoff physicality. Let the big boys be big boys. The stuff that was happening in this game, and you could say from the other side if you're an OKC fan, well, they were doing it to Shea too, their opponent grabbing him. They debuted like almost a new way to defend Wemby yesterday. And I'm gonna be really interested to see how the league reacts to it over the course of the series. This is just new territory for us. Yeah. If you're just pulling his arms and pulling him off balance all the time, if you're pushing his shoulders down when he's jumping, which is all stuff Hartenstein was doing, I felt like Wemby got fouled 20. I don't have a dog in this race. I'm a Celtics fan. I don't really care who wins the series. But I also really enjoy watching Wemby. And yesterday was— I don't mind if he's getting knocked around. I thought Minnesota did a great job doing it. I thought the difference yesterday was like the pulling, the grabbing, the pushing, just stuff that just shouldn't be legal. And if you're gonna be allowed to do all that stuff, OKC's gonna win the series in 5.

So how did they react to Game 3?

So I think this conversation depends on like who you're pointing the finger at. From the Thunder perspective, I think as a competitive team, if you are not seeing what you can get away with in literally every series you play that's competitive, you're not doing your job.

So I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly with that. They should have done what they did in Game 2. I agree that it was a good strategy.

And I would say it's even incumbent on Isaiah Hartenstein in particular, who is desperate to find a way to stay on the floor in this series to see what he can do to affect that matchup.

And the answer was everything.

The answer was, I mean, yes, it was, it was whole. You're right that some of those plays are like borderline dirty. Some of them are very physical. It's like walking a very delicate line of not just like what is legal, but what is like in good taste as a competitor sometimes.

Yeah.

Great teams do that. Great teams have players who do that and can understand how to like toe it and without going over too much. But the, the refs have to call some of it. Like this is a case where you could put together a supercut of 15 to 20 different Isaiah Hartenstein plays. That are questionable in all sorts of ways. And some of them have to be called. Some of them were, not enough of them. I don't even really see that as being Isaiah Hartenstein's fault. Like he is playing the game and playing his role in the way that honestly the Thunder kind of require him to play it.

I actually thought it was brilliant by him. And you could see him as the game was going on and be like, oh, I guess they're going to just let me do this.

Yeah.

He was even, he was doing something that I've always wondered why guys didn't do more is pulling Wemby away from the basket on drives so that he, he basically to slow him up on the offensive rebound. Every time it felt like he was getting some sort of advantage. I thought it, I honestly thought it was brilliant, but I also couldn't believe the refs allowed it 'cause it was pretty blatant. It's not like you couldn't see what he was doing. And I think if Wemby, the only, the only thing he probably made a mistake on is he just should have had his arms up like this.

Yeah.

Because I think it just would've been more clear that Hardenstein was grabbing him on the, on the sides and stuff, but it was pretty effective. And I talked about this a couple weeks ago. This is Kareem. This is his entire career.

Yeah.

Guys doing this to him, guys pushing him, guys elbowing him in the back, guys trying to provoke him. And Kareem, I think, punched like 5 different guys at one— broke his, broke his hand on Kent Benson's face at one point.

Yep.

Wemby's gotten mad once, um, but my guess is Hartenstein will not be able to get away with this stuff in Game 3. I am guessing the supercut was sent to the league today.

Again, that's, that's the Spurs job, right? It's like everyone is kind of needs to play their role in response to these things and figure out how to navigate them. You're, I don't know that we've had a player like this whose officiating is so unique, maybe since Shaquille O'Neal. Like, is there anyone in that time in terms of bigs that, that comes to mind for you? Yeah.

Shaq. Shaq. It just wasn't fair.

Yeah.

He could just get near the basket and he could just turn and dunk. And so they started to do, and I remember this is where it was always tough for me to evaluate Shaq as like a top 15 guy. 'Cause on the one hand, I felt like he left stuff on the table.

Mm-hmm.

And that he would, he would always play himself into shape. And you know, there was really only one season where you're like that he was fucking awesome from beginning to end, which was his MVP season. On the other hand, I don't think it was fun to be Shaq 8 months a year with the way he was guarded.

True.

And they would pull on his arms and they would pull on his shoulders. And that's why he ended up having shoulder problems. And I think with at least one of his shoulders, over and over again, he's going, he's exploding to go up and they're just kind of grabbing and pulling him down. So I, I would say he was probably the last guy I can remember where it was a constant dialog. And then some of the stuff the Pistons did to Jordan was probably the other big example. Other than that, before that, that people didn't play defense that way.

And, and like LeBron has taken a lot of hits and a lot of kind of borderline hits over the course of his career, but it's totally different as a ball handler. Handler. I think this is where the Shaq-Wemby comparison, or Kareem if you wanna loop him in, these bigs who are off the ball trying to establish position, trying to set screens, there's just so much space for the officials to kind of like turn their head ever so slightly and miss crucial contact, crucial fouls. It's a reason why bigs in the league in general on offense are just not officiated fairly. They are not given the benefit of the doubt that guards are. I had wondered if Wemby might be the exception to that just because of his frame. Like you were saying, if he puts his hands in the air, just like he's so thin and he moves so much. If you are someone like Isaiah Hartenstein kind of pulling him out of the way, is that enough of like a neon sign saying, hey, there is weird contact going here for the refs to finally pay attention to it? In Game 2, it wasn't like it just didn't draw enough attention in the way that apparently he needed to.

The thing that I've, I just, I love watching Wemby. I really enjoy it. That sounds like Chris Collinsworth. I love, I love Wemby. I love Dylan Harper. I love Wimby. I really enjoy watching him. And one of the things I love, other than how competitive he is and being an alien landing from UFO, all that stuff, I love that he doesn't bitch for calls. He really doesn't.

Yeah.

And he takes a lot of punishment and I just think he's used to it. I think this is the way people have defended him since he was 14. And I think he's done a probably done a mental study. 'Cause yeah, I think he puts a lot of thought into everything, probably as much as any young star we've ever had. And I think he's realized like, it's not worth it for me to be bitching all the time. I need to be bigger than this. I need to be the most physical imposing guy in the, in the game, in the league. And if I'm just constantly bitching and yapping and complaining, that gets compromised. So he took it. But Mitch Johnson did not seem like he was enjoying it.

Yeah.

It seemed like he was getting madder and madder and madder and And, uh, my guess is it won't be the case in Game 3.

Well, and they'll find ways to work around it, right? Like, one of the things you can do is, because of Wemby's skill set, you can move him anywhere on the floor. You could run him through actions like a guard if you want to, and make Isaiah Hardenstein have to, have to defend him that way, which is something he's not comfortable doing. I, I think the other part about the not complaining about fouls too is Wemby, for as much as he gets hit and held and pushed, like, isn't one of these guys who is falling over all the time, even on his own shots. Like a Joel Embiid style. I think it's become a really cool part of his game, not just because, you know, some of that's just gonna turn people off, but you see some of the tip dunks that he gets now off of his own misses. And you're only there to do that because you're not falling, you're not leaning, you're not trying to bait out the contact. Like he's moving downhill so much all the time now that he is able to clean up and get just crazy plays with a kind of geometry that we're not really used to seeing from anybody else.

Yeah. House and I talked about it 2 days ago, just like how important that game 1 was for him, which we all had the same conversations. I thought SGA was great last night. I really thought he had a command of the flow of the game and when he should step in. And I just thought like, that's why he won 2 straight MVPs. 'Cause the games like yesterday, Wemby, the experience of watching Wemby, I don't remember feeling this way as a basketball fan since like those early 2013, '14, '15 Curry range where it was just like, I, I can't get enough of this 'cause I've never seen it before. And with the Wemby, like yesterday, and it feels like every game there's something different. Yesterday it was just, he just had these crazy offensive rebound putbacks from weird angles. He must have had like 5 of them.

Yeah.

Where you're like, I don't understand how he got that. You almost want them to stop the game and replay it and tipping things from far away and you know, being under the basket and reaching his octopus arm around and I think he, he probably didn't even really have a, that good of a game for him. Mm-hmm. But it felt like he was consistently impactful and all over the place. The, you know, the Fox thing and then losing Harper. Yeah. I feel bad for poor Castle with the 20 turnovers in 2 games, which I sincerely hope nobody hangs on him. He's not a true point guard. He's going against the scariest collection of defensive guards we've probably had this century. You know, he's been sloppy. There's a little bit of a Westbrook side with him. Early Westbrook.

Yeah.

The OKC from '08 to 2014, a little outta control. Awesome one play. Definitely a few plays where you're like, oh no, why'd you do that? A tendency to be involved in the biggest play or one of the biggest plays of the game. And it might be a good thing, it might be a bad thing. And like Westbrook is, one of the 15 to 20 best players in the league.

Yeah.

But is just young and figuring it out on the fly. And Fox was just so helpful for him for just being, having, being the adult in the room. It's, I think it's just so much to ask for Castle to just kind of navigate that Thunder defense. Jesus.

It's tough. But in the same way that with, you know, a younger Russell Westbrook and especially a prime Russell Westbrook, like what Harper gives you in terms of the fearlessness of his play, I will just take every day of the week.

Right.

And I, you, you take that and you try to harness it and try to rein it in. Like, okay, don't do these particular crazy things. Or in the case of this series, he's just like mishandling the ball sometimes. Like he's trying to go so quickly and so aggressively through all of those Oklahoma City defenders that he's just kind of like losing it.

Yeah.

I think that's going to be the reality if both Harper and Fox can't play. Like they just don't have alternatives. Like you can throw Jordan McLaughlin out there. But it's not really gonna change a lot. You need the 2-ball handler approach even just to get Wemby in good advantageous positions. And so it's like, it's not an accident that the fewer ball handlers were on the floor. Now it's hard to even get Wemby the ball. It's hard to get those like post-entry passes to him. Everything just gets so much more complicated. But I, I trust that Castle will rein the turnovers in certainly over time, but even over the course of this series, like it just can't be this terrible all the time in terms of the volume.

Yeah, it's basically 2 a quarter. I remember in the, I think it was the 2012 Finals, I wrote a piece about Westbrook about the, the concept of a 90/10 guy where the 90% is awesome and that 10%, everybody's got the 10% that they're not really good at. They have some flaw. And with Westbrook, the 10% was so glaring. You always thought about it.

Yeah.

And Castle as a point guard, you can, you just are kind of aware of it. It's like, all right, his flaw is he's a little sloppy.

Yeah.

And now the— he has the ball all the time. I'm gonna be thinking about this more that he's a little sloppy 'cause he's 21 and he's going against Lou Dort and Caruso and who's the other guy they have? That's Ter—

Kason Wallace.

Kason Wallace. I forgot about him.

First team all defense. Kason Wallace.

I voted for him first team who just stands at midcourt waiting to pick your pocket.

Brutal.

And has done that to, done that to Castle at least once a game.

Well, so if, if Stephon Castle has a little bit of young Westbrook, is Dylan Harper like the most supercharged Eric Maynard we've ever seen of like, here's the like game managing responsible guy behind him.

Yeah, he's alien Eric Maynard. I, I was so bummed when he got hurt.

I know.

'Cause that was another great thing about this series. You're watching Harper in real time. I talked about this two days ago, the just like, this is the worst he's ever gonna be and he's doing this. I was thinking about, I really value when a, when a young point guard can rise to this. 'Cause even you think like some of the best point guards we've had, Tony Parker in the 2003 playoffs.

Yeah.

By the end of that playoffs, he was so shaky that they were like, should they trade him for Kidd? Remember? It was like a whole thing. Oh, absolutely. Kidd's a free agent. Do they do a sign and trade? Would this be an upgrade to get Jason? 'Cause Parker was a young point guard and they didn't know if they could rely on him. Rondo was like that for the '08 Celtics. It was like he was good one game, not good the next game. And for Harper to be as, consistent and also impactful on both ends.

Yeah.

Pretty dumbfounding. It sounds like he's gonna play tomorrow is the word that I was hearing.

I hope so. I mean, even if it's in a somewhat limited state, like they could really just use everything that he brings to the table. But when you think about those 3 core guys, Kessel is having the most normal young player in the playoffs experience because of those walls he's running into. Harper, we really haven't seen the limits on it yet. He's still so smooth. Like, There, there was a play where before he left this game in Game 2, he's like driving one-on-one through Lou Dort, just like one diagonal step at a time. And Lou Dort is just constantly backpedaling. And Dylan Harper, who again is 20 years old, just body bumps Lou Dort, a living fire hydrant, out of the way for a basically uncontested layup. It's like, yeah, nothing about that is normal. Nothing about Wemby's arc and his like first playoff foray is normal. Stephon Castle is looking mortal by comparison, but it's still awesome. And so if, yeah. You just have to feel— we've said it so many times, but like the fact that the future of the franchise is anchored around those 3 guys in particular, it's just about as safe a bet as you could possibly make and as encouraging a sign in this first run as you could possibly get.

I think they should win the series and I still think they're gonna win this series.

Mm-hmm.

But we'll see with Harper. If Harper's compromised, then that's gonna change the equation. Fox, the high ankle sprain. I, I never know what to believe with these anymore. Sometimes high ankle sprain is just like you're done for 4 weeks. And then other times it's like he can play. It would seem as a point guard, that would be not a great position to have a high ankle sprain.

Especially against the Thunder. Again, like there's defenses you don't want to go against with any limitation, and you might have to, like if you're Harper or Fox, but it's not ideal.

They're gonna be home for Game 3. My guess is Fox is gonna be a game time decision and play. I don't know this for a fact, but it's a home game. They're probably hoping they could split the first 2. In OKC and come back and then actually unleash Fox. And I don't know, I, I just feel like if the J Dub situation, the other side.

Yeah.

Which he really looked good in game 1. And I thought, I tweeted this, that, uh, I thought game 1, you know, there were casualties from playing 58 minutes at the pace that everybody played at. You knew, you knew something bad was gonna happen in game 2. We had 2 injuries. Right. I think Mitchell might've gotten hurt too.

Yeah, that looked a little shaky too.

Yeah, something. But J Dub now seems out. I guess he's going to be out for a while. You could feel it with some of the lineups. They basically have to go— they could do the two bigs with some guards. Maybe Aaron Wiggins plays a little more. Maybe— I don't know. What do you do? How do you replace the minutes?

Well, this is where if the officiating changes around Isaiah Hartenstein and J Dub isn't available to play, You're starting to see those, like that cascading effect become a real problem because then who literally, who guards Wemby? Like, who are you throwing at him? We saw a little more of Chet on Wemby in Game 2. Thought he did okay, but he's not your first choice. If J Dub can't play and Isaiah Hardenstein gets in, let's say foul trouble because of all the holding and grabbing and pushing he's been doing, we're either going to get like 28 J-Will minutes or like 40 Alex Caruso minutes. Like it's one of those two guys is going to have to stretch really far in that matchup. And I don't know that either of them is fully ready for it. They both, you know, have things they can bring and try to make Wemby's life hard in particular, and also can contribute on offense. But all of the matchups get very strange very quickly if J Dub isn't out there. Like he really is the critical piece that makes a lot of this make sense for OKC.

I actually like J-Will in this series.

He's, he's really good.

Yeah. I like his top of the, it's a little Luke Garza-ish, that little top of the key 3. It's getting some Garza flashbacks.

Okay.

Like J-Will, I'm just trying to— J. Will cannot—

reminds me of a young Garza. Everything cannot be through the lens of Luka Garza. That can't be what we're doing.

It's a little Garza-ish. No, but one of the things I like about him is he'll mix it up.

Yeah.

He got in a fight with Champagny's brother in the Washington game during the weekend.

Sure.

I don't know if— I don't know if the other Champagny's holding it against him, but he'll mix it up.

Is Justin showing up in the same way that, you know, the Thompson twins were showing up for each other?

And the Morris's?

Yeah. I mean, you got to.

Very possible.

You gotta come to your brother's playoff game. I would think it's a requirement.

I thought for sure Game 2 was gonna have some sort of altercation. And I had like a Mad Libs of, I had Wemby, Castle, Dort, and Jalen Williams, some combination of the 4 of them. And maybe even some Kelly Olynyk if he had gotten some minutes. But I still feel like, I feel like this series hasn't gotten chippy enough. It's been physical, but it hasn't been— we haven't gotten aggro yet. I think it could be Friday night.

No.

Yeah, Friday night, little, little Spurs crowd having some spirits before the game.

Yeah.

I'm, I'm a frisky crowd mad about the officiating in Game 2. I, I think there's gonna be a, a vibe in that game as they should be and as there should be.

I'm looking at the FanDuel odds now and I'm seeing -500 for a Bismack Biyombo forearm shiver to some Thunder player. Do you, I mean, would, would you take that one or what do you think the alternative is?

I would love to see Bismack come in for 2 seconds. Olenek has There's, I think you could find like a 2-minute video of him doing stuff in different playoff games. Most famously when he accidentally knocked Kevin Love's shoulder out of his socket.

Yeah.

That was a tough one.

Again, a lot of borderline physicality going on in the playoffs. I don't know how that, the lines of what is an accident can really be blurred pretty clearly.

What do you think's going to happen in this series?

It is so injury dependent. I think if J Dub is not able to play, God, it just, it really depends on how many ball handlers the Spurs have too. I am inclined to say if J Dub doesn't play, the Spurs have the upper hand in it. That they, they've now taken a little, a little bit of a tilt in their favor. And I say that just because J Dub is so important and because we saw Shay like read everything so perfectly, both in terms of spraying out to other players, but also picking his spots on offense. That just gets so much harder when the Spurs have a chance to game plan for the reality that J Dub isn't out there. And so. You're gonna have to rely a lot more on Alex Caruso being a real offensive player and a scoring threat all the time, which certainly was the case in Game 1, but isn't all the time.

By the way, hasn't been consistently reliable throughout the course of his career. Even the playoffs last year, he's a little Josh Hartis, Hardish, hit or miss. There's games when he just, they're not going in.

Makes plays happen, but Game 1 was literally like one of the best role player performances I've ever seen in my life. So that cannot be the expectation for who he's gonna be. Also, AJ Mitchell's kind of figuring out his way into the series if, as we alluded to, he's even healthy enough to go. So the, the next guys up for OKC after Shay without J Dub, I think are really difficult. And that's in part because this is not a Chet offensive series. This is not a matchup he can be a dominant scorer in by basically any way. So he might have a game where he has 18, but it doesn't feel like 18 because he's like, he's not forcing the issue. He's not pushing, he's not attacking. It's just kind of like circumstantial baskets for him, I think.

The series odds shifted. They were dead even a day ago. Now it's OKC -162. So I don't know if that means there's in— inside info. J. Will comes back. Awesome series though. I mean, yesterday, other than how well SGA played, it wasn't like the prettiest basketball game, but it was dramatic and riveting. And I thought, if you're San Antonio, I didn't feel like I played well and I lost Harper midway through the game and I was still hanging around, hanging around.

Yeah.

Down 2 with like, what, 3, 4 minutes left? And I really had to make OKC make some plays. And I thought SGA, you know, really did some good stuff. And more importantly, OKC has really now settled into the role as America's villain. I think they've embraced it. I think their fans— it's us against them for the fans. This happened to the Patriots with me. Once you have to buy in officially, and once you officially buy in, it's great. You're just like, everyone's against us. You're just, your middle fingers are out at all times. You, you're constantly, you know, taking everything personally. It's a great place to be. They, they should savor this and enjoy it.

So if the Thunder are, to borrow your framing, a little Patriots-ish, does that endear them to you at all? Does, does their villainy make them a more appealing team to you?

I just, I don't like the flopping. I just am not a fan.

Yeah.

I don't like it. I don't like when guys on other teams do it. I almost feel like the Thunder are the best at it. I, you know, there's theories that they practice it. There's every game, there's 10 videos afterwards of different things that come out of it. But part of the thing for me is I don't necessarily think they have to play that way. They're so talented. So I don't really fully understand it, why they bought into that style. It obviously works for them, but I just, I don't like it.

I mean, there's the two conversations of like, how good are they? And clearly they're amazing. They're a championship team. They play to that standard literally every night. And then there's the, how much do you enjoy watching them? And that really comes down to how much appetite you have for ignoring some of that stuff. I think if you, if you just pile up the 15% of most annoying behavior of basically any team, every team's got some stuff going on that's true. That really gets under your skin, whether it's the, whether it's complaining to the officials, whether it's the shot selection, whether it is the flopping, it's just a matter of taste. And like, for me, I'm willing to like overlook a lot of it because I really do like watching all the other stuff that the Thunder do at just like an A, A+ level. So yeah, that part is a payoff for me. But you can't just like write off somebody's experience if they say, oh, this isn't, this is a bad watch. This is annoying to watch. This is not what I like to spend time doing. You know, when I'm clocking out for my day and now I gotta like grind through Thunder tape because it feels like they're at the free throw line all the time.

I get why that would be a chore, but they're also fucking good.

It's not quite as bad as Luka complaining after every single call. Like to me, that's a 10 outta 10. I just hate that probably the most. Not everything can be a foul on you, Luka.

No.

But fortunately we, uh, didn't have to worry about him for that long. Uh, some mailbag questions.

Okay.

This is from Kevin. I'm writing this the day after Wemby's 41 and 24 against OKC. If it came out that Wemby actually was an alien, that he was legitimately not human at all, and we knew where to find more Wembys like him out there, would that affect your interest level in the NBA? I think it would for me if we didn't, if we had non-humans. But, but yeah, my point with that question is somebody was convinced that it, Wemby might be an alien and crafted that and sent it in.

That part is believable to me. The part that sent me over the top was that, oh, we can ascertain where he came from and find more, find, you know, like go to, go to the Avatar planet and pull more Wembys down here to play. Would it, would it affect our interest in the league? I mean, I think if there's a literal alien involved, how does that not affect your interest in the league? How does that not make it more interesting? What is it? Whatever is happening.

It would be, it would lead to amazing halftime shows and morning shows and think pieces. Have humans lost control of the NBA? That's coming up next.

I mean, it's hard to be America first when you can't even be Earth first, you know? Like, just the, the talking heads would have a field day.

Mike from St. Louis asks, is the Spurs backcourt of Castle and Harper the most exciting young backcourt since the Splash Brothers? What other young guard tandems got you hot and bothered like these guys?

Oof.

They're already the second and third best players in their team and they're 20 and 21. And then the Western Finals.

Yeah.

Really good question. Splash Brothers is a great example. That started to happen 2013 range. Curry was a little older though. He was in his mid-20s.

Sure.

At that point, he'd been in college for 3 years. I was trying to think, I thought more people would come to mind and it was really tough to think of 2 young guards in the same backcourt.

Yeah.

That were this fun to watch. The closest I could come was the Derrick Rose, Ben Gordon backcourt that the Bulls had for a split second. In 2009. Remember that?

Sure.

So when Rose was a rookie, Gordon had that great playoff series against Boston and felt like he was the next Danger Tony. And it was like, wow, what a backcourt. 10 more years. And then Gordon left like the next year and went to Detroit and it was gone. But it's, it's pretty rare to have two young guards like this. We usually, it's usually it's two guards who can't play together. Like a Jaden Ivey and a Cade and things like that.

Or a Steph and a Monte Ellis. It's like you gotta pick one at a certain point. The other guy gets jettisoned into the next version of your team. I mean, even, even if you expand it into veteran groups, like, this is so unique because these guys are so good and so young. But it's not as if there are just great guard-guard combinations of any age that are this interesting. Like, for me personally, Stephon Castle and Dylan Harper are like among my maybe top 10 to 15 most watchable players in the sport, period.

I agree.

Uh, and so like, I am dialed in on every Spurs game I can get my hands on. Like, especially a run like this has been so fun to watch when they're out there together or apart. I think it's really hard to compete with that. The only other young tandem I can think of in the league right now is, I mean, we do love LaMelo and Khan together. Like that is, that's a fun pairing for sure. But it's, it's nowhere near.

Yeah. I feel like Khan's a forward too, don't you?

I mean, I mean, it's like sort of him, him, Brandon Miller, like it's, it's all kind of a little fluid out there.

Yeah. But, well, when you're talking guards, like Chris Paul and Booker had that nice little Phoenix run.

Sure.

That was really fun. We had, if you go back to the '70s and '80s, you know, we had the, the best one was the Dennis Johnson, Gus Williams one that made the finals in two straight years. Those guys were both young, they're both in their mid-20s. So we've had, we've had something like that.

Yeah. Or, or young Parker and Ginobili might be, might be a good comp if you want to reach back a little bit.

Both those guys were, that's a great one.

They were much wilder than these two. It was like two Steph Castles out there a lot of the time, but that can be fun too.

Nash and Finley was fun for a little bit there.

Of course.

Yeah, there's been some good ones. Um, this is from Jeffrey. He listened to, uh, my Borat rewatchables and then the breakdown of, uh, Game 1 of OKC. And Borat in that movie talks about having a romance explosion, and he wants to know what the current romantic explosion team is. The guys you would construct around your personal enjoyment. What would be the best? You just mentioned two of your favorite players.

Yep.

So if you put a team that would actually make sense together of 5 guys that would be your romance explosion team, what would it be? Oh my God. I can start as you think of it.

Please.

I have Joker, Wemby, and Steph as 3 of the 5, and then I'm just gonna work around them. So those are my 3, 5, my 3 favorite players to watch anyway.

Yep.

And I was thinking healthy Halliburton. Assume we're having him healthy next year. And I get Steph and Halliburton who can both play with or without the ball, and they can both cut. Joker, Wemby. Who's my fifth in this scenario? Who's a shooter that's fun to watch and play with? I almost just wanted to put Aaron Gordon in there because they put him in the dunker spot.

I do love that.

Some corner threes and then he could just set picks and do stuff. That was probably, that was probably, I have four. I couldn't get that. I couldn't get there with the fifth.

But so are you, what do you, are you trying to win or are you just trying to have a romantic explosion?

Just like, I love watching all these guys. I can't believe they're all playing together. I'm having a great time.

Yes. I think the, the like collision of all that talent is kind of hard to write. Like in particular, the Steph, Jokic, Wemby part. I, I love, I love watching Jokic. I love watching him dissect the game, but like Steph and Wemby are the important elements of that for me personally. Okay. And so like, I would start with those two. I want like, really kinetic players between them. Like, I want, I like Jalen Johnson types, like super fluid, can do a little bit of everything, but like aren't being overtaxed in the way that the Hawks overtaxed him over the course of this year. But I feel like we need some defense, do we not? Like, I like watching—

that's why I brought Aaron Gordon in.

Aaron Gordon's a great one. I think I almost might put Giannis in this group. Like, I really like watching—

Giannis, he's alive.

Giannis is alive. He's back. He's healthy. He's— theoretically out of Milwaukee. I don't know where we are in this scenario, but Giannis of like, I don't have to be the superstar. I'm playing with these other guys and I can just be like the best defensive player in the world and also an aggressive open court weapon at all times. That's a guy I want part of this formula.

I'm gonna give you my young guy romance explosion team.

Okay.

Maxey, Harper, Khan, Flagg, Klingin. Let's go.

Do you need a towel off?

I— let's go. I got Clingan protecting the rim. I got Khan spreading the floor. I got Maxey and Harper going up and down. And I got Flag over here just doing Flag things. There's gotta have a—

I say this with all due respect, there has to be a better guy than Donovan Clingan for this team. There has to be a better option.

As a— I just needed somebody who could play defense.

I mean, this is Chet off the board. Are we, are we so down on Chet we're just throwing them out?

Yeah, Chet would be pretty good. You're right. Chet's probably in there. I don't know. Having a tough moment with Chet.

I mean, here, here's the thing. If you want pure re— pure watchability, just like enjoyment watching that guy work, gimme Moussa Diabate out there. Like the fights per— the fights per 36 are going through the roof. The crazy rebounding, the like, he, he will make one pass and take one shot every game. That is objectively insane. But I'm, I'm, I'm along the ride for all of that.

Tyler sent a Giannis email, actually. Tyler J. Is it cr— so he, he, there was a rumor today about the Heat offering Hero, Ware, the 13th pick, and 2 future firsts for Giannis. I forget who reported that, Gary Werfel? I think that, Jerry Werfel?

Yeah.

I think that's who it was. Tyler says, in past offseasons I'd scoff at that, but isn't that pretty decent value with the new lottery rules, especially with Giannis's injury history? Couldn't they last? Couldn't the Heat be in the 4 to 10 range? I feel like firsts are a little more valuable now. Honestly, I felt the same way. I thought that was a lot. I don't, you know, Giannis, see, you have 2 really good years left, 3. I've done, I've done a million podcast segments about this, I feel like, but I don't know who else is desperate enough to trade for him. It feels like the Heat is the only team.

The Wolves, maybe.

Maybe, but I don't— I'm not getting the same kind of picks from the Wolves because they've already traded all their picks.

It would have to be a third team involved for sure.

Daniels kind of has to be in that trade, and if then that changes the calculus of why the T-Wolves would do that. So I don't know, I don't know if the— I don't know if the Bucks are doing better than that. That's one of those where I'd kind of be like, do you want to call this in? Like, can I get a swap and we're good? Can I get a 2031 swap? Let's call it in.

At some point we need to do the full indexing of the complete range of offers that we have contemplated for Giannis over the course of this entire saga. Because at the beginning, the idea—

this was a reject.

Oh my God. HeroWare and a couple of firsts for Giannis Antetokounmpo was just like—

Hawkeyes.

Hawkeyes too. Absolutely. But it would have been a nonstarter. Like that's maybe in the pile, like we're putting it in the roundup of deals for, you know, for the blog posts. But is anyone really taking that offer seriously? I, I think a couple of things have changed. For one, just literally everything happening in Milwaukee, but also the relative value of those firsts, like in this new era with the changed lottery odds. It does, it shifts the calculus a little bit around teams like Miami in particular, as far as like how bad they could possibly be. Like they don't need to be fully bottoming out anymore for those picks to really be worth something.

I think Giannis wants to go to Boston, and I'm not sure Boston wants Giannis, and I think that's the, push and pull right now.

What makes you think he wants to go to Boston?

I just think he does.

Aggregated?

I don't care.

There's your social clip, there's your aggregated blog post. Let's just, let's just run with it.

I think he wants to stay in the East and, um, I think a certain guy on the Celtics has the same shooting coach as him and, um, I think there's a lot of respect for the organization, and I just think that would be a team he would be interested in. But I also think Miami is another team he'd want to go to.

Yeah.

And by the way, the league's more fun if he goes to Miami. The league's more fun if Jaylen and Jason stay together next year. Sure. Giannis goes to Miami with Bam, and they just kind of figure it out, Heat culture style, and just, just salvage random guys from around the league, like the Davion Mitchell types, and all of a sudden they're scary.

Plus with like the Pacers coming back, the Hawks a little bit better, the maybe the Pistons find a way to add a piece or two. Like the East could be a really deep conference next year, especially if Giannis goes somewhere that's actually kind of relevant.

Don't forget House's Wizards. Of course, the resurgent Wizards, the, the Trey and AD pick high pick and roll with the Bansa spreading out on the side.

I genuinely can't wait, but I don't know if that says more about them or me.

Tony Candelora. Wants to know, when we look back in this era of the NBA, will the Thunder end up being to the Wemby Spurs what the Bad Boy Pistons were to the Jordan Bulls? The Bulls had to mentally and physically overcome that big hurdle, and the Spurs might have to do the same. The Pistons won back-to-back titles. Could this be history repeating itself? I hadn't thought of that, but I thought that was pretty interesting. I didn't— the problem is in this scenario, I guess you— the, so the, the Spurs would have to be the 1990 Bulls. In this scenario.

Yes.

Which means they would— yeah, I, that's, that's a pretty good one. I mean, it's pretty realistic. I just think the difference is the Pistons were kind of on their last legs after the second title, whereas OKC is young and has a big future ahead of them.

Well, narratively, I mean, you have the team that's kind of like testing him with physicality in the way that the Pistons did.

Yeah.

You, you have Wemby potentially having to overcome both that and them just competitively. Over the course of his first couple years in the league. I, not only though does it feel different just because the Pistons were so much further along in age and experience than the Thunder are, but it would be like if that Pistons team were in place and they were a test for Jordan as they were, but they also just had like this other trove of young talent and picks that was also in the pipeline so that they could be a totally different but equally competitive version of the Pistons for the next like 8 years. Like the sustainability of the Thunder. Is the unique element. And so every other contender falls apart within like a pretty concentrated window. I think we have a lot of reason to believe that the Thunder will not do that. They'll have to change. They're gonna have to like draw a line somewhere. They might have to trade J Dub at some point, loath as they are to do it, but they just have so much to work with in a way that even the Pistons of that time did not.

Yeah. The funny thing about this conversation is OKC might win 9 of the next 10 titles and we'll be like, remember that? 2026, and we thought that they were going to be a stopgap champ for the Spurs, and now they're challenging Bill Russell. Uh, one more Giannis thing from Victor. He, he mentioned, it's basically asking, is there's— if, if Giannis goes to Miami, the Zombie Heat, does he turn into zombie Greek Freak, and does that get scary? Oh, if he goes to Miami, does, does he now become zombie Giannis? Yeah. And get the heat juice poured on him, and now it's 2021 again, basically.

Is that how it works? They just pour heat juice on people?

Yeah, they pour heat juice on people.

I mean, the logic of the zombie says, like, as long as he gets bitten by somebody down there, as long as, like, a piece of a brain is eaten, then he becomes zombie-ianus. But what does zombie-ianus even mean?

I, I don't know. It's like a Game of Thrones White Walker thing. Like, I don't want to be part of that. Yeah, yeah. Um, Ethan wants to know— he's a big Knicks fan. If the Knicks won the championship with Brunson as their best player, considering all the discourse about how you can't win a championship with Brunson as a small guard as your best player, what are other sports equivalents of that? And he mentions, this is an NFL thing, not your total forte, but if Lamar Jackson won the championship and there's this whole narrative about you can't win with a, like a quarterback who runs and moves around as much as Lamar. I don't think the Knicks are gonna win the championship this year, but I think if they did, there would be, uh, it would be a reckoning for a lot of things we thought about the type of teams that could win a title. Definitely not, not building a team through the lottery. Pinning your hopes on a guy who after 4 seasons was averaging 11 points a game career. And I think he got what, like $104 million for 4 years? And it was like a polarizing contract.

Remember?

Yeah.

Some people are like, whoa, that's Jalen Brunson. That's way too much. Where were you on that? I was, I was more bullish on it. I think if you were watching, I didn't think he'd be this, but I was like, no, no, no. How else are you gonna get, I thought he was a proven playoff guy at least.

Absolutely. I think if you were watching that Dallas team, even before like the breakout against the Jazz that he had in that playoffs, all of the signs were there that he was a good, at least like plus starting level point guard. I thought maybe he'd be the kind of guy who like makes some All-Star teams, maybe has like a Kemba Walker kind of career. This has been a totally different thing.

This makes no sense. It's up there with Kawhi is really the only other example of somebody's first 4 years not remotely looking like their next 4 years, right? Where it's just like a double leap.

And he's so good at all the things that small guards are not supposed to be good at. Like, for as much as people wring their hands around that idea, he gets in the lane and finishes and maneuvers around people in a way that we very rarely see and maybe have never seen from anybody else. So. I, I like this idea though of kind of like puncturing the common logic around what a champion can look like. And I think you're right about the construction of the Knicks. Not only did they not build through the draft, they didn't even really build through free agency either. Like all of these guys, they got by trade.

And so, yeah, and even Randle was a free agent signing who then they turned into Towns somehow.

And on the other side of this, I mean, we're just coming off of a year where a really young team, Thunder, a really young Thunder team won the title. And if the Spurs managed to get outta the series, maybe even a younger Spurs team manages to win the title. So the conventional wisdom that like you have to have experience, you have to have all these things gets thrown out the window. I don't know what the requirements would be anymore other than you need the superstars. And clearly in this era, you need a lot of depth just to survive this sort of run.

Jordan Malaney in LA wants to know if Wemby could pull a Jerry West in the Western Conference Finals where OKC wins the series, but Wemby wins Western Conference MVP. Hadn't thought of that. I'm on the record, I always think it should come from a winning team. I don't know how you're the MVP of a team that lost, but this could be a really good test case if Wemby finishes 27-17 and 4 blocks a game. Yeah. Or whatever. And, and his plus-minus is crazy out of whack and they lose in 7 by 3 points. But I, I personally think it should be a winning team.

If he has 3 more games that look like game 1. I think he probably should win. And that's even if Shay looks amazing, right? It's even if, even if—

so you would vote for it.

I mean, you have, you have to see it in context. You have to understand what's happening. It's like, it's not just about the numbers, but how much you are shaping and impacting the game. I don't think anybody affected Game 1 in the way that Victor Wembanyama affected Game 1. And they could lose the series and that could still be the case, especially if they're down all these other guys and they don't have the ball handling and they just kind of fall apart. But he is the one constant. I don't see a reason you can't vote for that.

I think the one thing that's definitely happened, he's the best player in the league now. I don't think that's arguable anymore. The impact that he has and watching him go up a level in the playoffs, I just think, I think this is kind of a wrap. As great as SGA is, it's just what we're watching from Wemby is, we haven't seen it. Uh, John K wanted to know, is Wemby the greatest threat we've seen to challenge Bill Russell's crown for most NBA championships? Championships, which is 11.

I don't think that's happening.

I don't think it's happening. A, and B, we've been here before with like, honestly, Shaq and Kobe felt like they were gonna win every, every title in the 2000s, right? When Wade and LeBron and Bosh all got together.

Not 1, not 2.

Yeah. It like 7, 8 seemed realistic. So we've been in this spot a few times. Yeah. I don't, I would say winning 11. The difference here is if he's 22 and his best teammates are 21 and 20, the kind of runway they're gonna have, skipping all the steps of like, you know, Jordan didn't win a title till year 8.

Yeah.

You know, Wemby might win a title in year 3 for all we know.

I feel like it's much more likely that we look up 10 years from now and Wemby, Wemby and the Spurs won 4 and Shea and the Thunder won 3, and it was just kind of like a back and forth between them for supremacy during this time.

But no, Celtics-Lakers in the '80s. So Lakers won 5, Celtics won 3.

Exactly.

It easily could have been 5-3 the other way. Last one from Brian from Philly. He said, this is one of those series everybody seems to agree whoever wins the West will win the title. He wants to know how many other times has that happened where the finals, where the series before the finals felt like the finals. So I went through this Warriors Rockets 2018.

Yes.

Suns-Spurs 2007. The Robert Horry shoving Nash into the, into the thing. It felt, it felt like whoever won that series was gonna win the title and the Caps are waiting. Lakers-Kings 2002, I think was a good one. The Nets were the, in the finals that year. Either team was beating them.

I mean, couldn't all 3 of those, like all of the championships in the Lakers repeat probably would qualify at some point with some series they played or another in the West?

Yeah.

The problem is in 2001 they killed everybody. So I don't even think we thought there was this, they were just destroying. That was the second best team in the century. Lakers Blazers in 2000 was the other one. That felt like, uh, and Indiana I thought was a good team that year. I actually, and that series is a lot closer than I think it gets credit for. Now, if you go back and you watch game 4 and game 6, it's a really, really good series. But I think those were, uh, Those were the four. Oh, and then one other, this is from BS, weirdly, um, that wants to know why the Knicks keep rolling out all these ex-players that also have all this baggage from Knicks past, whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. Marbury, Starks, Ewing, et cetera, et cetera. Larry Johnson, Sprewell is, it's like the ghosts of Knicks past, not in a good way, but the, the MSG has come to accept them. Are you pro? Are you con? Where are you in this?

I think we should honor our history. I think if you know, not—

That's how I feel as well.

Like, what's the problem? Certainly with honoring those, like Patrick Ewing wants to come watch the game. You're going to turn your nose up at Patrick Ewing? And I'm here for the Big Ten. I loved the ceremony they had earlier this season where they brought out like 60 guys like Ron Baker come celebrate with Knicks legends. I think once a Knick, always a Knick is a genuinely cool thing in a league that feels so transactional and so mercenary sometimes. Like, Let's care about playing in a place and let's care about players and athletes that have relationships to a city and to a fan base. I, I don't think any of us need to be too cynical for that.

Rob Mahoney, I completely agree. I kind of like it. It's a little weird. It took a while to get used to it, but I like it because I think that's when you're a franchise that has generations.

Yeah.

I think you should embrace the generations and they've done a good job of kind of the celebrities of the people that have been coming for a while, get priority for the seats. I saw Fat Joe was courtside today. Yeah. But then all the other Knicks guys from the '90s and 2000s. I don't know. I kind of like it. I do like it. I always liked when the Celtics, even in the '80s and '90s, when they would bring the guys from— anytime a guy from the '60s or '70s was in the house, it was like, oh, oh my God, it's, it's who? Don Nelson. Wow. It is fun.

If you're the Knicks, it's just every game. My OneNote I don't know when Patrick Ewing entered his, like, newsboy cap era, uh, but I do have mixed feelings about that. Maybe it just comes for all of us.

Feels like he's, I don't know, tinkering with stuff. Yeah, maybe new stylist.

Him, John Travolta. Like, it's, it's a weird year for, like, berets and alternative hats.

Travolta might have ended the beret.

You think so?

Yeah, I think, I think that, I think he killed the beret a couple nights ago. Um, so you're doing Euphoria, you're doing it, uh, with Joanna on the Prestige TV pod.

I am, in fact. And we're doing—

How many episodes left?

2 episodes left. And we're actually going to be going live to YouTube for both of those episodes. So come hang out with us on Sunday nights.

What's that, Ringer TV? It's the YouTube channel?

Ringer TV. If you're not dialed in on the NBA that night, come watch Euphoria with us.

My daughter was on my pod the other day and said the season seems to be revolving around Sydney Sweeney and her boobs. And she's hoping that they will gravitate away from that in the final 2 episodes, was her review.

I don't know how locked in you've been, Bill, but they literally destroyed a skyscraper. Oh, I'm—

I've been watching it. Yeah, they did a Godzilla with her boobs.

Just wanted to make sure, you know, when that happened I sent you like an urgent Slack alert just to make sure it was on your desk. But I'm, I'm glad you're there.

By the way, I haven't been to Slack in 8 years.

Maybe that's why.

Yeah, I'm always available on text though for you, Rob Bohony.

I appreciate that.

All right, Ringer NBA, Prestige TV, and, uh, I don't know when I'm going to see you again. There'll be some sort of live thing we'll have to do during the series because I think Spurs-Thunder will go at least 6.

I certainly hope so. Hopefully there's enough like live action by the end of this series.

Yeah. All right. Thanks, Rob Boney. We're gonna take a break. Come back with, uh, Malory Rubin and old friend Jason Concepcion next. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel, our friends. FanDuel giving you better payouts on same-game parlays on the NBA playoffs all season long. More ways to build more value every time you play. Stack your picks your way for every game, every matchup, every moment. Spreads. Player points, threes, parlays, whatever you want. Build it into one same-game parlay. Go for much bigger payouts. So if you're betting same-game parlays this NBA postseason, why wouldn't you do it on FanDuel? I have no idea. More options, better payouts, all NBA playoffs long. Head to fanduel.com/BS to get started. FanDuel, official partner of the NBA. Play your game. 21+ select states or 18+ DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by LinkedIn. For small businesses, guess what? Every hire matters. Luckily, there's LinkedIn Hiring Pro. Great name. It's designed to help you hire with confidence by surfacing only the right candidates And guess what?

HiringPro streamlines the entire process from drafting jobs to shortlisting candidates and conducting AI-powered screening interviews. And its conversational interface lets you describe what you need in plain language. Hire right the first time. Why not just do it the first time? Get started by posting your first job for free at linkedin.com/simmons. That's me. That's linkedin.com/simmons. Terms and conditions apply. Survivor 50, 3-hour finale last night. Jason Concepcion is here. Malie Rubin is here. You might remember them once upon a time back in the 1900s when we had a little podcast called Binge Mode about a show called Game of Thrones way, way back when. But here's what's uniting us right now. We all love Survivor. I had a big comeback this year. You guys have been in from the ground floor. And it was an action-packed season finale. Where do you want to start, Jason?

Oh, gosh. I'll start with the winner because I thought Aubrey— deserving winner. Absolutely deserving winner. I've never necessarily gravitated to her game. I thought the season where she came very close to winning, but Michelle won, Khao Rong, I could see— Yeah, she played really well down the stretch, but I think that, um, the criticism that her social game was not necessarily as on point as it needed to be to win that game is, is correct. And ultimately, the fact that she was able to get to, to get to the position to win the last immunity necklace without Jonathan, Joe, or Rizzo realizing that she's the biggest threat to win the game. Yeah. Is proof positive that she deserves to win and that she altered her game enough to, to win under very challenging circumstances. I mean, it, it seems like a $2 million mistake to choose to boot Tiffany over Aubrey, certainly for Joe. And, uh, but shouts to, shouts to Aubrey, just, just a real A great, great run. She played it in that kind of new era way where she stayed in the middle, stayed in the cut, and then flowered late to kind of take the reins.

And again, still managed to stay off of people's radar. Just a wonderful performance. Have to hand it to her.

Mal?

Yes. Yeah, I really agree. And I think, like, season 50— First of all, what a treat to be here with you both today to talk about this genuinely really memorable finale. And season 50, Survivor 50 was supposed to be a lot of things, right? Not a lot of shows go for 50 seasons and 25 years. And one of the things that it was supposed to be— and I think when the initial cast list came out and there was this wide swath of players from the middle seasons missing, it was like, isn't this supposed to be a celebration of the eras? And it ended up being that in a lot of satisfying and surprising ways. And I think because of that core intention and the level of just adoration that every member of the cast brings to Survivor— like, well, maybe we'll talk at some point about the celebrity twists across the season, which worked, which didn't. The true celebrity twist celebrity at the heart of Survivor— I've said this before— is Survivor. And so a player like Aubrey was always going to win this season. I think a player who has the deep-seated trauma from injustices of Survivor's past and the ability to, in Aubrey's case, I thought beautifully and quite effectively articulate that at final tribal— a player like Sarii, god tier, was never going to get to the end.

There are very few other members of the cast who would have actually taken her and followed through on that pledge. I think Ozzie might have. Probably nobody else would have, right? And a player like Joe was never going to get the votes. I actually think Rizzo is like a great player, and I hope we get to talk about him, but he was also never going to get the votes because the other players have never watched him play. They don't understand what his Survivor history is, but they do understand Aubrey's. And so I think Aubrey always was a leader in the clubhouse for like most likely to win the season. And I think she really played well. The underdog story almost always hits at final tribal, and she was able to back it up with, like, actual savvy gameplay and a real narrative. So I think she's a worthy winner as well.

Is it time for me to have a zag?

Do it!

Please zag! Please zag!

This is why I stopped watching the show.

Oh, come on.

No, honestly, this is why I stopped, like, 20 seasons in. I just had it with, with how They systematically get rid of all the most interesting, most talented, best-looking people during the course of the show. And what do we end up with? Oh, the middle. This is the new strategy. Oh, you mean the people that were smart enough to realize this person's a bigger threat? Let's get them out. This person's a bigger threat. This— I just— I thought she was so unimpressive, and the only reason she won was because 10 other people were way more captivating and way more of a threat, and she just kind of waited until the end. It was like watching a cockroach.

Okay, go.

Yeah, please, you, you first.

I want to agree and disagree. Jason, I know we feel the same way about this because one of the things that like got me through COVID was us texting about Jesse during Jesse's season. This has been a real problem in the new era where like, I think genuinely it is difficult, if not impossible, for the best player in the season to win. And this is something that Jason and I have like agonized over for years. Jesse was one of the players I was shocked not to see in the Season 50 cast. He was easily one of the most dominant players in recent memory, and the fact that he was not only not able to win but not make it to the point where he could have tried to win was, I think— and I know Jason, you agree— an indictment of the structure of the game. So broadly, Bill, I think your critique of like, can the best player win, is valid inside of this phase of Survivor, a show that I love and like basically can't live without. That said, I don't think that's the case for Aubrey. I don't actually think Aubrey is a player who falls into that mold.

I don't think that Aubrey is What mold does she fall into?

Not charismatic, doesn't win challenges, nobody really trusted her.

She, she won.

And everybody kept her around because they all were stupid enough to think if she got to the end, they were gonna beat her. That was the only reason she won.

I'll say this, I think it is very telling that over 4 appearances on the Survivor television program, mm-hmm, the first time she won an immunity is the first time she won the title. I— and she— you—

in immunity, she practiced it. She practiced it on her own.

Anybody could do that.

Good for her.

She's been the final— yeah, she's been the final challenge for— I, I can't even remember how long it's been.

Everybody's been lazy. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Everybody knows. And yes, there was a vote, but it's like everybody should put their chip on it's gonna be Symotion because everybody knows it's gonna be Symotion. Everybody loves Samocean. Everybody could have done that. And I'll just say, like, I love Sari. She dominates the game when she's in there. Yeah, absolute mastermind, the likes of which we will never see that level of strategic and social play maybe again. If she could win a challenge one time, I mean, her threat— she could maybe win this game because that's— you need the complete package. And I want to say that I agree with you, Bill, that specifically in New Era, There have been champions.

Yeah, for sure.

Gabler, who came out of— literally came out of nowhere. You're like, "What?" Erica, to a degree. Where the editing has not caught up with the way the game is played today, where people stay in the middle, they stay below the surface, and then they burst out late. And I think that that is a production issue that the show needs to figure out in order to— drive these narratives stronger. That said, I thought they did a good job with that this season. I really think they did.

Well, I think if anything, we saw that she was gonna get—

make the final 3 just from the edit. Yeah, when she was crying during the mac and cheese, I was like, all right, here we go.

When Jonathan put his tongue in the rice, I'm like, he's not winning.

That you don't—

that's not a champion's edit.

Oh man. I think, Bill, like, you, you invoked the word cockroach, and I would just I would at least posit that that is part of the point. Outlast is one of the core tenets of Survivor. And I think that there are— and this is actually— I think this is a healthy debate because part of what's fun about Survivor is just like the players have different styles and approaches. Fans of the show have different things they're looking for in a champion and different things they gravitate toward in a player who they form an attachment to. I like all sorts of different Survivor players. I actually think Jonathan played— —amazing season, you know? And obviously quite different from Aubrey. And one of the things that was super fun about the back half of the season was that brief moment where they were like, should we work together? Literally no one at home or on this beach would ever have anticipated that Aubrey and Jonathan would work together. And it was like riveting, right? Even for a moment. I think that the challenge beast is like a form of Survivor dominance. I think that the social strategist, the tactician, the intuitor, right?

All of these things are different. I think that there is something undeniably impressive, though, about just being able to move vote to vote and not— because I don't think— by not being impressive. No, but that's the thing.

We don't have to vote her out yet. She's— there's no way she's going to win. That was their strategy.

I don't agree. She controlled the Aussie vote, which Joe basically confirmed at final. She had the better— she had the better ability to make her case, which people forget about that part of it. Like she told the story at the end about why she should win, and it resonated.

Yeah, that's what my wife said at the end. She was like, because we thought Jonathan had the best quote-unquote on-paper game, he couldn't communicate why he played the best game. And you could feel him dying in real time during the tribal council because— and I think there was more there maybe in the edit. It didn't seem like people liked him. Um, it was interesting to me that all the women, it seemed like, except for Stephanie, didn't vote for Jonathan.

No, Stephanie and Chrissy both voted for Jonathan. I mean, they were the most vociferous in his defense.

But how many women didn't vote for him though?

To the point where Tiffany had to say, is there a question in this monolog? Incredible moment.

I mean, Stephanie, that was like— that was just weird.

Covered up for him too in one of the biggest episodes where Bizarre. All she had to do was throw him under the bus and she probably would have escaped, and she didn't. And then she was like, well, I was trying to do right by him, or whatever she said. I thought that was weird.

Yeah, I mean, that's like an adjustment Jonathan can make. Jonathan will play again, there's no question, right? And I thought one of the cool things, like, when Jonathan played his first season, everybody talks about Ozzy as the Jungle Boy. There has never been a more physically dominant single-season performance than Jonathan's first season. It was astonishing. He was like Thor. It was crazy. The fact that in between his appearances, he said, I'm going to study at the knee of Boston Rob and really work to improve my game is impressive. So now he will, I have no doubt, make another adjustment. There's no question, Bill, that he's thinking the exact same thing. Like, I sat there and the relationships I needed didn't pan out, and I wasn't able to articulate my case too. And I actually think Jonathan did a pretty good job across the season of, like, saying what he needed to at tribal council or in a conversation with somebody when he was trying to move a vote. But certainly Aubrey did too. And I think that like Aubrey got by because she wasn't the biggest threat. There were— for weeks now she's been a target.

Weeks. So I just don't think that's accurate. Was she always the biggest?

It is accurate, which they got rid of Sari because they thought she was the biggest threat.

They got rid of Tiffany over Aubrey because they were afraid Tiffany would win the next immunity and that they wouldn't be able to control the outcome then.

But this is not because they did this Celebration of the Middle. And that— this is why this show's frustrating to me. It really is a microcosm of real life. This is what big companies are like. This is what ESPN was like. Middle-level managers who just figure out how to go under the radar, don't really make noise either way, and just kind of strategically survive until other people flame out. And that's the show. And this is why I stopped watching it, because it's frustrating to me.

I will disagree with you in the sense that the middle era of this show, certainly up to Winners at War, was, "Let the players play, and very aggressively so." Fewer advantages, huge alliances, big rivalries, big characters making big moves. It has turned into, and I think you're framing it a lot more aggressively than I would, that kind of game in the new era. With too many advantages and, and people playing the middle. That said, I, I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna critique it through the, your take through the lens of Jonathan. I think Jonathan made an, made a tactically sound decision that, that I, I can, I have a great chance to win the final immunities and my only real threat in that regard is Tiffany. And so I need her out so I can win that and then Then we get out Aubrey, and then we move on. Not realizing that you might not get that chance. And I think it was an ego move. I agree. And the issue is, people who play— As much as Jonathan has grown, he still, I think, thinks of himself as a challenge player, a physical player.

He's always talking about, "They only see me as the big guy." I mean, you're talking about how much you're the big guy. And he looked at the game through the lens of challenge beast, Tiffany's gotta go. Not looking at the full picture. What are the conversations that are happening when you're not looking? Who has relationships on that jury right now? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Who's having conversations that you're not aware of? Who's been involved in votes? Who hasn't had a vote cast against them? And you've gotta look at that whole picture. And Jonathan's not there yet. Rizzo, who I love, is certainly not there yet, though I think we'll see him again.

Oh my God. No question. Yeah.

Yeah, but hold on with the strategy piece, and this is why Jonathan lost. So Rizzo has an idol that they never flesh out ever.

Two seasons in a row. Yeah, terrible.

Incredible. Yeah, Sari has— they know that she's never winning a challenge. She's just not. That's her fatal flaw. It's like Mitchell Robinson's free throw shooting. Like, you can do hackas, hackas Sari, put her on the free throw line, she's gonna go 1 of 2. Um, you have to keep her to the final 5. They got rid of her a week too early. That was your week to either get rid of either Aubrey or Tiffany. I forget who had the immunity at that time. I think that was—

you keep 3 until the final.

He's like, we got to get her out, we got to get her out. It's like, just do it when there's 5 left, or do it when there's 4 left. What challenge is she winning? There's no way. She's already proven she's been last. Or if you're doing advanced metrics on it, she's last or second to last in every challenge you're doing. So why do you have to get rid of her before the final 4? I just don't understand that.

They're in the island all day talking about nothing.

This is like all I would talk about. Yeah, just be planning out 40 scenarios like this. Never dawned on them.

I've had this exact discussion with like, I think this is a popular take, you know, in the wake of when specifically Sari was voted out. And I think that you're undeniably right that if you just look at the probabilities, like if you just look at the likelihood of certain outcomes, you can't argue against the case you just made. There's no— there actually is no counterargument. However, The infinitesimal scenario, however small the likelihood is that some challenge emerges— and like, frankly, I think that production puts a challenge in front of them that is suited to Sari because they so badly want Sari to win. You can't be the person who made the single biggest mistake in Survivor history, which was to allow Sari to get to the final, because that's your legacy.

You get rid of Rizzo and his idol. I don't know. I just didn't hear that.

And I think also taking Sarii out is a resume move for people because she's such a beloved player. So they all wanted to be able to say, "I'm the one who finally got Sarii, the goat, out of the game." And that's, like, too tantalizing of an elixir to pass on, I think. Yeah, I agree.

I think Jonathan had a chance, and his chance was get Aubrey out when you had the chance. That was it, period. And then— lean on your strength as a challenge beast to say, I can beat Tiffany. Why are you— why are you running from the smoke? Why don't— why are you running from this, from challenging Tiffany head up in it in the final immunity challenge? Like, take her on. Don't be afraid of that. That's what you're good at.

I love Aubrey out. I love Tiffany. I was really rooting for her. I thought she had a great season. Um, I understand why you'd want to get her out, but I also don't feel like she had the same connections. And part of that— I mean, you guys have been watching the show the whole time. I watched, I don't know, the first 20, first 25, I can't remember, and then I faded off. The, the part that was different for me than maybe you guys is the history of these people on the shows was such a big part of how everybody perceived, yeah, who they should vote for, who is in control. They were using the past. It was like why Riz couldn't win because he hasn't tasted his blood enough, or whatever stupid reason it was. And I was just watching, like, who's playing the best game this year? And to me, like, I thought Jonathan and Tiffany were way better, and I actually thought Riz was better than Aubrey too. But then everybody was pulling in the past, and you were so close against Michelle, and I was like, I didn't see that season. I don't even know what that means.

I'm just judging you by this year when you were just in the middle doing nothing for most of the season.

I'll say that I think that there is— there's active activity on the island, playing the game, making moves, et cetera. And then there's this passive ability to read the game. And I think that is what this middle play that Aubrey displayed shows. I think Tiffany had an ability to read the game. What she was missing was an ability to rally people to get Aubrey out. She saw it. Aubrey is the threat. We need to do this. But she couldn't build those connections to make it happen. And—

Yeah, she was annoyed by people. That's how I would be in this game. I would just be starting to get annoyed by, like, 6, 7 people. I can't help it.

Very much the same. But that reading the game, I think, is the thing that is both the most amorphous, hard to visualize as an audience member because you have that omniscient view. You can see everything. You know what's happening basically on the island from— 30,000 feet above. And it's also what makes the game so frustrating, I think. You know, Jonathan didn't do press after the finale. And I think— And if you watched him, the other podcast have noted this, other people have watched the finale, he had, like, a big dip in his lip, I think just chewing, you know, trying to—

He looked very unhappy still.

I think he thought he won. And I think— Oh, wow. He must have thought he won. And he— and I think he thinks— I think he realizes he made a $2 million mistake.

I think he's known for a full year plus, because that's how long ago this was filmed, that he didn't win. And he has spent every day stewing on and anticipating this moment of public regret and embarrassment.

That's what I mean. I think he thought in the moment that he thought he won.

Oh, yeah.

It was like, "Yes, it's getting here." And the prediction markets had Aubrey at like 36% before the show even started, which I didn't know any of this till last night. Night. And then heading into this final episode, she was the prohibitive favorite.

That's not surprising to me, just because even though they had not actually read the votes, much like before the game, you know, the Zoom alliance, all of the pre— you're not supposed to pregame, but they do. They form alliances, they talk. Similarly, you know, everyone's like, who'd you vote for? Who'd you vote for? And yeah, it's NDAs or not, enough people know that at some point word gets out and then it travels. I, I did not know that about the markets and Aubrey, but I think the edit frankly, from episode 1 made it pretty clear that Aubrey was gonna make it far because there was— we had these kind of two phases of the edit. The first one, you know, in like Christian was the player I was— Tyson is Tyson, host of Ringer, excellent Ringer podcast, The Pod Has Spoken. If you are not— if you were listening to this and have not checked out The Pod Has Spoken, check it out. It's— if you love Survivor, it's a fantastic podcast. Tyson is the best. He's my favorite Survivor player ever. One of my most recent new favorites is Christian from David versus Goliath, right?

Yeah. Christian is— I was when the cast list for season 50 came out, I was just overjoyed that we were gonna get to see Christian play again. Christian was so prominent in the early episodes that I was like, fuck, there's literally no chance Christian is winning this season because they wouldn't be devoting this much time. Yeah, yeah. So Aubrey was in that interesting spot where there was— it was so conspicuous in episode 1, uh, centering this feud between Genevieve and Aubrey that did end up bearing fruit and being really meaningful in the inane Blood Moon episode, but had no consequence early on in terms of being featured as prominently as it was. So it's like they're telling us this is gonna matter for a reason. Then we get to the middle of, like, the surging, "I'm an underdog," right? "Okay, I won't make the same mistakes I have in the past." People start targeting Aubrey. Then they start talking about how Aubrey has a good story. "Oh, Tiff's making some good points." I think this has been— again, I love Survivor. There's like the mini version of it where you're watching a challenge and literally the scoring, the music of the scene changes right before the outcome of the challenge.

You're like, I guess I know who's about to hit this shot and win. Why do they do this? Yeah, they tip the edit. There was a period a few years ago where they worked more actively, I think, to obscure the outcome and how they edit the show because so many people were onto it. There were a couple candidates, I guess, in how this season was edited. I think Jonathan was one of them as well, where it was like the way he's being edited. You, you did really believe he was going to get pretty far. Tiffany is the opposite.

Yeah, I didn't feel like he spent enough time on her, and meanwhile she was cranking out challenges.

The only finalist, the only final 5 contestant with a no confessional episode, right? And so I think they really, they really overcorrected on Tiffany's edit in particular.

Sorry, Tiff is great. Um, she'll win at some point. She will win. So will Rizzo.

Did you think there were too many gimmicks this season? No question.

No question. Not only too many gimmicks, but too many game-breaking, destructive gimmicks. It's one thing to have, like, Blood Moon, and it was like a name. It didn't really matter. But then you have, like, the Jimmy Fallon one turn, which was basically outrageous. Put a gun in Christian's hand and tell him he has to shoot himself. Like, it's— there was no chance he came back from that. Yeah. And too many of the advantages were like that. The Billie Eilish boomerang, which it, it's notable to me how many longtime Survivor watchers and Survivor contestants turned Survivor content creators have continuously been like Oh, um, Rizzo should give the— no, he can't. It's the boomer. He has to keep it. And that mechanic alone is just dumb. We want to see players make deals. We want to see players be active, not get locked in these boxes. And too many of the gimmicks, they gamified it. They randomize the game too much. And two, I think they're just too prohibitively dangerous to the person who gets them.

I could not possibly agree more. I think, again, the true celebrity in Survivor Season 50 is Survivor. So let's center the gameplay. Yeah. Now I think the shock of the century to me is that the MrBeast thing, which I had been dreading given how prominently it had been teased in the trailers, was kind of amazing actually. And Devin's at the center of just a— Yeah. So it's, I think, two things. One, when Jeff is talking about the blood moon and how iconic and historic it's going to be, and that's why we're here to make historic moments, it's like, That's not how a historic iconic survivor moment happens, by you saying out loud it's about to happen. It happens organically and authentically because of the decisions that the players make. And the Blood Moon robbed the players of the ability to make decisions based on their play to that point by artificially dividing them into groups that were too small. Do a— the Pod of Spoken crew talked about this a lot at the time, but do a 17-person tribal. That would have actually been historic. Now, the MrBeast thing worked out because because it came up loud.

It came up, it came up, right, Beast? And like, they got the $2 million, great. But it allowed Devins to behave fearlessly and boldly, which is his game. It was an amplifier for how he already plays. And I think it revealed everybody else's collective cowardice because they let him do it, which was demented. How could nobody else stand up and say, I'm gonna do this instead? The Jimmy Fallon thing I will take to my grave, both because of my affection for Christian, but also because to your point, Jay, it deprived a player who we love to watch operate of the ability to operate at all. It's, it's a, it violates a sacred Survivor tenet, which is the one thing you will never have to do on the island is write, write down your own name. So right away I'm out. But it's just, once you go back and you have to read that out loud and say that and then do it, there's literally nothing you can do to save yourself at that point. And then what, what are all of the alliances and the gamesmanship for? Genevieve who I think is a great player, found 2 idols and got voted out because the game didn't allow either of them to make it back to her in time because of that artificial division of the, the structure.

So like, I think the moments that heightened gameplay and centered it and allowed the decisions that the players had made to that point and wanted to make in the future to be at the, the fore, including like fire making, right? Like the blowing— Jeff revealing that, which I'm sure we'll talk about, was like astonishing. But the fact that 2 players who had lost We're facing off in fire. I was like, my jaw was on the floor. I'm like, I can't— this is actually poetic. This is like, this is mythic. This is what Survivor is. Jimmy Fallon coming in, or like a 25-minute spearfishing aside with a Survivor superfan. I'm like, I'm a Survivor superfan. I didn't get to go do that. Why do I need to watch this? You know, I— the moments that moved me the most this season were like Ozzy crying about his father. And I was like, I did not expect to feel this way about an Ozzy scene, but I'm like bowled over by this.

I'm really moved. How many times do you cry about Um, I was genuinely affected by that Ozzy moment.

And even something really like, you know, like, uh, Joe and Devin's having just this very authentic connection about— that would really touch me. The moment that got me the most this season, not even close, won't surprise Jason who knows about my Colby obsession to hear this, but like Colby being voted out, it got me because it's like, not just because he's just insanely hot and always has been, and one of my formative crushes, and I was sad not to get his to see him, but that's a moment that only season 50 of Survivor can give us, which is like this person you watched grow up on your TV, sit there. The guy used to be a hotshot challenge beast, dominant, beloved, like poster boy, heartthrob. Then he comes back, he can't get it done. He doesn't handle it well. Then the third time, and to be there after 24 years in his 50s as the fatherly figure and sit there with that humility and humbleness and grace. I was just like, this is actually kind of amazing to me to have watched this person move through the phases of his life and to see the way it impacted the other players around him who were in tears having to send him home knowing he would probably not be back.

I was like, this is why I'm watching a season 50. This is amazing.

Also one of the top 15 people that were more charismatic this season than the winner, Aubrey.

I mean, listen, I don't disagree. I will say that I don't disagree that— Oh, God. She's not oozing charisma by any sense.

What were your favorite Aubrey moments during the season? Your mileage may vary.

Well, I love the Genevieve feud, but I— but those— that's one of those editing decisions where, you know, from my perspective, it was they gazed at each other across the beach and then hated each other, and no explanation. Yeah, I want to know. Yeah, what happened? And they should have made more, uh, hay out of whatever that was because it seemed so deeply felt. That both of them were just simply not gonna work with each other after whatever happened on that beach. But that was great. That's the stuff I love, is these petty rivalries, alliances based on— on fear. Based on nothing.

You know, just vibing with somebody and being like, "I like that person." We'd walk to go take a poop together. Yeah. Can I give you my MrBeast impression? Mm-hmm. Sure. On the show? Please.

Bigger teeth, whiter.

Did somebody tell him like, hey, you're probably gonna be nervous out there, just smile like you're a serial killer for the entire time you're out there? That's one note. Um, my most disappointing moment was when Christian turned on Mike White, who had befriended him and even brought him to the White Lotus thing. And I, I do feel like— I feel like Christian worked a long con on Mike White, who loves this show and should know better. Oh, I'm telling you, I, I do. First of all, I think Mike White was like, this is my guy right here. Meanwhile, Christian did the full fucking Scarface double cross on him.

Is anybody working a longer con than Michael White, who has brought— that's the thing, multiple Survivor players into the White Lotus universe. Yeah, and he got out of con, co-hosted the official podcast. With Mr. Probst and who's— who dangles these appearances in White Lotus as boons for being in his orbit. I think Mike— I think Mike was trying to do the exact thing to Christian that Christian did to him, only Christian got there first. And honestly, Christian had to. He had to do it at that moment.

Mike White, another more charismatic contestant than Aubrey. Very true. But that was it.

So Christian and Mike played together, right? They were on— and that is my favorite season of Survivor. David— if anyone's like, what old season should I check out? I mean, there are a ton. Heroes versus Villains, Blood versus Water. I mean, they're amazing. Yeah, all the Tony seasons, Winners at War, they're fantastic. But like, David versus Goliath is a fantastic standalone season, and a lot of those characters have been a part of Survivor lore moving forward. Christian was on the one hand right to identify that people were looking at them, and Mike was too, too willing to say, like, my David versus Goliath guys are my guys. Like, let's do it. Yeah, Christian realizing that was a threat was right. I think that there was no, literally no chance that anyone who was playing this season was going to give bazillionaire Mike White $2 million in prize money. So like, I don't think he needed to be eliminated in that sense. Yeah, he is a very compelling an artful director of decisions. And I thought the way that he, like, with a laser beam to the heart— yeah, picked at that scab, at that Gabby wound.

For that was a mistake. Holy shit. Like, that was riveting to watch because, like, not again.

The context there is Christian and Gabby had a what seemed like a rockside alliance. Yes. Bordering on perhaps a mutual crush. Like, it was— It was powerful television. And at a crucial moment, she turns on him. He survives it, but ultimately, it does wound his campaign going forward. And it was a big, big moment. And for Mike to put his finger on that, I thought was— I thought it was too soon for that kind of move. And I will add this. I think Mike's other mistake, if you could call that, he came in too shredded. You're— yeah, keep your shirt on. Yeah, keep your shirt on. Yeah, don't, don't be like, I've been working with the guy who, you know, gets the Hemsworths ready for the Cinematic Universe to prepare for this. You're— it's, it's telling too much. Yeah, he had to—

um, we didn't talk about Joe yet. Yeah, Joe with a goose egg in the final 3. Very rough.

He has not done well in the finals twice, which is really tough.

And Sari just drive-by shot him with the, with the joke, the jotation, whatever she said. That was just an unbelievable throat slit.

That was so, so, so good.

Joe, every— Joe probably, it should have been a red flag for him that everybody was so delighted to never talk about him, never vote him out.

And just keep him going. Yeah.

Everybody saw him the same way. I think Joe showed good growth towards the end of this season, recognizing that his honor and integrity kind of gameplay is, one, very old-fashioned, and two, just is not a way to win the game, to go far in the game, to be a threat to win the game on any level. That said, he brought it up in— the final tribal council, talking about how he, he added some layers to his gameplay. And that's the part that didn't resonate with me at all. I did not feel that Joe meaningfully— here's the thing, Joe as a Survivor player thinks he's playing the honesty and integrity game, and to a certain extent he is with— in, in relation to everybody else. He's also lying and playing Survivor early but not recognizing it, and then later when he's saying, oh, I had to add these lies to his game, he act— where? Yeah, you didn't.

Yes. Yeah, I didn't remember. I didn't remember that either. My wife and I were like, what did Joe do, a double cross that we forget?

I think he was like trying to basically reposition something, like saying to Coach— Coach, one of— as always, one of the most bankable experiences in this, in this unpredictable world is that watching Coach on Survivor will be the highlight of a lifetime.

Uh, Another one more charismatic than Aubrey. I'll just keep listing them.

He is such an incredible character. I just can't like get— I just, I never— I personally never tire of it. But saying to, to Coach, I will never write your name down. And then we get the, the pairs elimination, which was like, again, an example of, I thought, a much better twist than some of the ones that were touted in the time, in the moment, of being like a huge twist. It's like actually interesting to pair people and then you have to vote out two people at once. I like that. Yeah, that was really good. Now, I think that Joe is— Joe is a little bit of a, like, every person inside of them has two wolves, right? Like, for me personally, because as Jason knows, watching Joe a couple seasons ago with Eva was like one of the most emotional and moving and deeply, I think, genuinely deeply affecting experiences in the history of Survivor.

It was, it was, it was, uh, blockbuster television to the point that I am convinced production tinkered with the challenges to keep Joe in the game for 2 or 3 extra episodes when they realized he couldn't do a puzzle.

Yeah, it's entirely possible. It was just beautiful to watch that, I thought. Like, sincerely. Yes, it was. That said, Joe going back to camp after, like, Devyn gives us one of the most authentically incredible moments in Survivor history, and Joe says to everybody, has the fucking gall to say to everybody, That was disgusting. Wasn't appropriate. I'm like, dude, what game do you think you're playing? This is Survivor. Now I think people try to play their version of Survivor is fine. And if you want to do the honor integrity alliance, like, it's not personally for me. I like watching people stab each other in the back and cut each other's throats and then try to justify why the person they did that to should give them a million dollars. Like, that's amazing. But if you want to try to do it differently, that's your prerogative. That's actually fine. Don't say you can't believe that other people are doing the thing that everybody is there to watch.

The whole point of the show. Yeah, yeah. Why else do we have it? Um, who is the one— if we, if we reset this season and just start it over again, who was the one that got voted out a little earlier, Jason, that you feel like, man, it just almost like a sports series where it's like, oh man, if they didn't hit that 3 in game 1 and we probably could have won that one.

I think there are several, but I'm gonna go with Genevieve. I think Genevieve is one of the most dynamic players we've seen in the new era. Yeah. In her previous season, had this ability to scramble from the bottom against adverse situations, hold fast to toxic allies as meat shields in a way that showed a level of— ability to read the game that I think— and, and read the middle game that I think is uncommon. And she's very smart, very tactical. And I think that's why Aubrey had to get her out immediately. Immediately. They played the very first one.

Yeah, I think Genevieve is a great pick for that. I have, I have two nominees. One is very quick because it was, it was injury, so there's not much to talk about. But Kyle, I think, would have gone incredibly far, incredibly far in the game. And he's one of the more impressive winners in recent memory. And I would actually be fascinated, Bill, for you to go back and watch watch his season given your overall feeling about kind of like biding your time as a strategy. Because the way he did it, I thought— I was like, you should be like in MI6. Like, it was, it was just unbelievable. And I think you would really have respected his game and, and wanted to watch him play the season. But I think it's maybe the, the spirit of your question, the better answer is since Jay took Genevieve, Charlie, because this was just a bizarre self-immolation that didn't need to happen. And I think it was kind of interesting to watch, given that it was very genuinely born out of his personal trauma from Maria. Charlie's a really good player. He did incredibly well in his season.

He had an alliance that took him very far. And his ally, as we know, even if you didn't see his season, you know from watching this season, his number 1 didn't vote for him, and he has just never gotten over it. It's a sincere, sincere wound he carries, and he just completely misread the Rizzo thing and allowed that— this misread, this misperception that Rizzo was Maria and had done to his ally what Maria had done to him. He imploded his own game because of the wrong read on someone he hadn't watched play. And I think whether you let your own personal trauma or baggage lead you to a certain decision is very human. And that's interesting to watch. But I wish Charlie had just been like, all I know is what people are saying out loud. And why would Rizzo in any way tell us the truth about what happened? I shouldn't let this be the arbiter of the decisions that I make. It just was so strange, the hold it had on him. And I wish we had gotten to watch him play a little longer because he's a— I think he's quite a capable player.

Jason, um, can you— I know it's— it just happened, so you probably need more time to reflect, but What do you think? What do you think, Riz? What do you think this final 3 meant to the Albanian community?

Well, I, I, I was saying when, you know, Rizzo was talking about how important this is to the Albanian community, that first of all, they have Dua Lipa, so they're good. I think the Albanian community at large is— they're filled with great things. Okay. Yeah, you know, Action Bronson, uh, Granit Xhaka, former Arsenal player. Like, there's We're doing okay. Reruns are taken on TNT.

They're doing good.

They're doing well. I, I think Rizzo— listen, Rizzo's got a lot of potential. I think we'll see him again. I think he maybe overrates his own game to a degree. He, he needed to control a vote. If you're never going to be able to win a challenge, you need to swing a vote somewhere down the line. And he was just, I think, a little too passive and made the— ultimately cut his allies off at the knees way too soon. He needed to skate through, I think, one more vote with Sari and Ozzie. I thought he needed to—

don't you think he needed to flip when there was like 6 left and do a new alliance with, with Tiff and Sari? I mean, I think would have been a move. Yeah, I mean, that's a move too, because he was, he was drawn dead in the one he was in. I think he was always gonna be the third guy in that group. Here's where I'll disagree.

I think that there's two ways to do it, and both are very strong historically. Yeah. One way is you have one, only one number one ally, and you say, "You and me, we're going to the end, and whatever happens there happens." Or you flip at some point. Both of those work really well. But, uh, you know, I think there's so many examples of you need that one ally. You just need the one. And I thought that Rizzo had gone too far down the road Yeah. With Sari to not hold onto her for at least one more till you get back together. I mean, like, till you get back together and you get to do it.

But Sari had like 4 people like that. That was one of the great things about her game. Yeah. Was everybody felt like they were her number one. And meanwhile, yeah, you know, Sari was getting around.

Yeah. I mean, that's part of her, her just magic is the ability to just win everybody to her cause and really truly steer and direct the outcome. She's like, it's amazing.

It's like if CR was on Survivor? CR just floats into different groups.

I think he'd do very well. He'd do great. He'd do great for the— he need the nicotine. Could they be able to airdrop him the nicotine? I think CR—

interesting question. I think CR would get double-crossed and it would be like one of the most devastating moments in Survivor history. People would— too trusting. Yeah, people would just be out of—

yeah, too trusting, too nice of a guy, beloved by all, warm open heart, and then just absolutely eviscerated when he—

the point of the show. I really like— be great TV. I really liked Rizzo though. I enjoyed him. And I think he was actually, you know, I wonder, like, should you hold back during the early tribal councils? Because if you're just like, he's somebody who could have like a podcast. Like, he's just like, oh yeah, on the more eloquent side of those things. So I think as he's like, just very like for 2 minutes just laying out like some big picture angle on the show, they had to have been thinking like, I don't want to be in the final 3 with this guy. He's going to be able to explain his case the best.

Yeah, definitely. Yeah. He is able to not only succinctly and clearly say the thing that needs to be said, but he does it with, as he would say, some cinema, right? Yeah. He makes it really compelling and dramatic. He draws the eye. Rizzo is one of my favorite recent players. And I think that my sense, J, I'm curious if you agree with this from 49. I think this is a pretty widely shared experience. It's very similar to what Colby went through. In real time on season 50, where the first couple episodes you're like, what's going on with this guy? Like, this is really a lot. And then you just fall in love with him, and it's so— it's so fun to watch him play. And I think, like, in general, I think a problem with the recent seasons of Survivor is that the players are way too self-aware. They're all super fans, they're obsessed with the game, they all think they're Survivor scholars. And so they're not only constantly like I'm the best. I know exactly how to do this because I've crunched the tape for my entire life. I, and I think the part of it that's fun is they're awed by the experience.

And when you have a season like this where, like, you can watch Rizzo pull Coach aside and say to a player he idolizes and grew up watching, we don't slay dragons at camp. We do it at tribal. Like, it was incredible. And I think watching the way that he navigated his interactions with these people he idolizes was genuinely impressive. But he transcends, I think, a little bit of a flaw with the current game because most of the players who are obsessives are too— there was a season a few seasons ago, I can't remember which one it was, where I think 6 of the players were podcasters or in the media. And it's like they're just too hyper-aware of what their image is going to be and how they're going to play as TV characters in addition to as Survivor players. And I would love— obviously, we're not getting that because the tease for 51 which I have to be honest, I could barely follow and did not understand, like the open era explanation of all the advantages and everything that's ever happened in the game is in the mix. I'm like, I'm not really totally following how this is going to work.

More twists. More adventure.

We need the opposite.

We need a clean slate. I completely agree. Yeah. It seems like that— I mean, this is just a guess, but it seemed like maybe they're going to try and do a one world type of situation. So Bill, one world was there were no kingdoms. There were no two tribes. Everybody was just on the same beach. That is kind of interesting to me if they're gonna do that. But I agree with Mal. Like, let the players play. Take out some of these randomizing elements that have been introduced lately. I think that there was— Now, maybe Jeff has data that backs up that people actually love this stuff, and in which case, fine. That said, for me, as a person who's been watching a long time, there is, like, an ideal— that crested in Survivor, I would say, like around Davids vs. Goliaths, Millennials, Gen X, when it was like a minimum of advantages and idols. And you knew that when an idol left, it was coming back. That was very predictable. And it allowed players to just play. Yeah. And now I think you're looking over your shoulder. You're wondering, if I pick up this advantage, how is it going to harm me?

There's just too many things that take the players out of the experience. In ways that I think hurt the game.

Did you both miss having an actual reunion special where we learned more stuff about bad blood between people, and did people regret stuff? And— 'Cause I know Jeff Probst is on the record as, like, he didn't really like those things anymore. Yeah. I kind of enjoy them. I almost wish, like, they had done a 1-hour and just put it on Paramount or something if they couldn't put it in the 3-hour window. I like seeing the bad blood and I like learning more about how people felt about the show. I thought it was weird they punted on that.

I always like when Jeff asks, like, if this person had been at the end instead, who would have voted for them? And they raised their hands. And the person who made— in, in, in this case, it didn't happen this way because Aubrey made the right decision to choose to take Joe. But plenty of, plenty of players who have made a decision about who to choose to have next to them have made the wrong decision and that person has won. And it's like something they think about until the day they die, right? Yeah. And then Jeff asked, would you Do you have— and then it's like just an unbelievable thing to watch those hands go up in the air. So I missed that specifically. But of course, if that had happened, Bill, if we had just gotten the true reunion hour at the end, what we would not have gotten— oh yes— was moonlight La La Land all over again. One of the most batshit what the fuck just happened live TV moments in the history of pop culture. I don't think we're overstating it to say that Jeff spoiling fire making. Jeff bringing out Rizzo.

At the final 4.

At the final 4.

What was weird when Rizzo came out, it's like, this is unorthodox. He's still in the game.

What happened? Rizzo was like, what am I doing out here? He tried to kind of like roll with it until Jeff was at the end, was like, okay, go sit down. And then realized like, oh, you spoiled it.

Yes. So Jeff's explanation. Which I watched this morning on one of the morning shows, was that— and this part makes sense. He's not watching the shows that's happening because he's already seen it. He's right, probably been involved with the editing. Yeah, probably like, no, no, do you use camera 2? I don't like that angle of me for that one. He's doing all that, so he's seen it and he's prepping and he's getting the live stuff ready. And it's hard to host a live show, as I've said many times. It's hard to host. Yeah, so I empathize with him. Yeah, he clearly either got bad information from a producer— 100%— or, um, I— or got discombobulated. I would go with the bad information, um, because you're doing a 3-hour show, you're live, you're going from here to there. There's a possibility— and I would say this as an older guy who had 2 brain farts already this year in the podcast— there's a possibility he just brain farted and forgot that they hadn't shown the Rizzo thing yet, and now retroactively is like, oh, they told me I don't know. What do you think? Is it brain fart or producer mistake?

Jason, having been around TV and live productions enough, that is a mistake that is structural. 15 people made that mistake. Yes. There is a director and a segment producer who— it might be that Jeff was like, okay, let's— now let's bring on Rizzo. Brain fart. But then like 5 to 10 other people need to just be like, okay, I guess we'll make this mistake right now. Doesn't he have a earbud in his ear?

Like, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, don't, don't Don't spoil the fire, don't spoil the fire.

Nothing. Or somebody come running down the aisle and go like this. It, it's— it should not have happened, and it happened because a whole load-bearing part of the production collapsed, not just Jeff. There's no way it's just his fault.

Yes, I think, you know, they, they decorate camp and, and particularly tribal council on these sets with like a, a lot of specific touches, right? You know, they'll shields or phoenixes. Um, sometimes there are skulls, and I would encourage everyone who's a part of this production to get a scan of their skull committed to the public record so that we can look at the future seasons of Survivor for every skull that is part of the set deck and make sure that the people who did this were not murdered by Jeff Probst, because this is not something that should have happened. And we were texting in real time because, first of all, I don't think it's possible that we were all watching —this in real time on the West Coast. Yes. I don't think it's possible that there's an explanation of, like, he was gonna bring Rizzo out and just the mistake was simply saying, go sit down, you become the final member of the jury, which obviously was astonishing when he said that out loud because then it was undeniable what had happened. And then the hush that fell over the room, Jeff saying, wait, what just happened?

My heart was, like, seizing watching it. The fact that Rizzo came out at all— once that happens, no matter what Jeff says from there, they have fucked it up because why is Rizzo out there? It is. Yeah, exactly. So it— I think that it has to be just the sequencing and the fact that that happened at all before that segment had aired. It's just a colossal mistake. The thing that we were texting about was like, why didn't they— because it's aired live on the East Coast. It's done. There's nothing you can do about it. So everyone will know. And that's like really a shame. However, we were texting like, why did they not edit this out of the West Coast airing?

And Paramount the next day just take it out of everything. Yeah.

And I was so baffled by that until I kept watching. And saw that the answer was clear, which was that Jeff then went on to reference it 5 times from there. So you couldn't have edited it out because the rest of the show wouldn't have made sense. And I give Jeff huge credit for that because this was like— I mean, the fact that it's like what all the articles are about and it's like the lead of every conversation today is such a huge bummer.

Oh, wait a second, next, next week, did they intend to do this intentionally? Intentionally.

Oh yeah, yeah, get the news cycle going, get the news cycle going. But like, oh my God, I think there is something— this is the spin that I put on it if I'm Jeff. Survivor is a game about humanity and overcoming failure and mistakes. And so there is something so meta about it in the season where Jeff put himself into a challenge and then bombed and had to say, boy, I really like have more respect for what you guys are all doing out there, that Jeff basically didn't say the right thing in his version of final tribal, and it's like a huge story that people are going to be talking about. Now Jeff can have his version of that moment after basically like 25 years of elite, elite work at something that's super hard.

People, people were mad, Jason. This angered people. I get it.

I mean, he did spoil a huge part of it. Um, but again, not his fault alone. It can't be. He's not running the cameras. He's not bringing Rizzo from the green room to the, to the stage door. There's a million things, other moving parts that are happening that had to fail to let that happen.

Big winner, Rizzo, because he was just pathetic in the fire challenge and nobody remembers now because it was the prop mistake. Guy's practicing all day and he can't even get a spark.

First time loser in fire.

That's another one of my controversial I don't love the fire. I don't love it as a decider. I just feel like it's become— it's too important of a thing in the show's legacy. I get it in the early days, but in the early days, they did a lot of things different. Remember in the early days, each person would walk in front of the 3 people left, and it was almost like they were a defense attorney, just ripping everyone apart before— I love that. Why did they get away from that? If you were fire, I wouldn't spit on you.

Yeah.

Why did they get away from that? I used to love when they would get up and walk, and they would have a whole speech. Whole thing prepared. Uh, I don't do that anymore.

Fire is, um, has become more, much more important post, like, season 38 when Rick Devins was notably eliminated after Chris Underwood came off of, uh, the Edge of Extinction and had the brilliant idea, really truly like revolutionary Survivor idea I've been out of the game for so long, the way to prove that I'm in it to win it is I will put myself in fire and say, "Come challenge me. I will win." And he won, and he ended up winning the season. That organically became such a moment that now it's basically part of the show. I'm on the fence about it. I think sometimes it's very compelling, other times not. I would like to see Jeff move fire earlier. Oh yeah, surprise people with it.

Yeah. Oh, interesting. Huh. Um, we do a Game of Thrones survivor of all the characters who wins. Oh gosh, you know, Joffrey voted out early. Joffrey's number one.

Joffrey just kills somebody in the middle of the show. Because he's so crazy. Yeah, everybody wants to get Joffrey in the final three.

Yeah, Littlefinger thinks he's gonna win, but around like 6, 7 left, I think he gets shanked.

Littlefinger's a classic overconfident, you know, irrational confidence guy in Survivor for sure. So just had this debate, and I made the case for Arya, and Joe talked me into Tyrion, which I think is probably a pretty good answer, especially aligned with the canon of the show where like Tyrion makes it through basically everything he needs to make it through, and then at the end says, basically, in final tribal, inexplicable things, and everyone's like, "Sounds good." You know? So I think Jozef Targaryen is a strong one. Yeah. That's pretty good.

I like that. I like that one as well. I would say also Varys, because he's got a great story. You know? He's got the personal— You've gotta be able to weaponize your personal trauma at some point during the show. And who can do that? A tactical player, strategic tactical player who can do that can win. But I also agree, I think Tyrion is.

I think Margaery makes the final four. Yeah. Really good. Gets a lot of flirt relationships going with multiple cast members who feel like they might have a chance after the filming.

Yeah, a showmance, a potential showmance. That would be nice.

I think she's working that.

Yeah, you can't have a Targaryen out there, they take their torch and they just light people on fire. That's not gonna work.

You know? Who is the one? Brienne of Tarth? I think she gets to the final 5 too.

Well, that's a great one too, 'cause you have Brienne and Jaime afterwards. She wins challenges. An alliance no one really saw coming. Podrick would do well. I think Podrick would do really well.

Podrick would do quite well. Oh, man. Jaime-Brienne as an alliance. Talk about a showmance, a will they, won't they. That would be gangbusters. The kind of thing that Jeff could not stop talking about at the finale.

And then Jaime has to make his Cersei or Brienne choice at the end, and we're all like, "No!" It's too good.

Well, the other thing is they're used to really malodorous people from Game of Thrones in the 1300s. There's not a lot of deodorant back then, you know, people wearing the same clothes for months.

They brought the family, you know, it's always emotional when the family members come out, but this is later than we usually get to see this. These guys stink, like they are rank. Yeah, you don't even want to—

it's, it's like a fist bump from a couple feet away, right?

The brothers, the mom and daughter, okay, but Joe's wife I could— I'm sorry, I'm just gonna be honest. I was watching this and I was like, if Adam had made it to the final 3 of season 50 of Survivor and I was brought out on a boat, I would not lovingly embrace him and tell him just own your game. I would be like, can you, can you like eat a coconut or something? Yeah, like, can we, can we freshen up a little bit before— this is like really tough.

Well, probably the game probably blows out everyone's nostrils after like 6 days. Oh yeah, for sure, you become nose blind because Probst, at one point, he hugs Serri after something, and he was like, "Whoa, he did one of those?" And you forget, like, how gamey, 'cause it's like, what, 90 degrees every day, and they're just wearing the same shirt for 6 weeks?

They used to be a lot dirtier too. I mean, they're filthy now for sure, but they used to be so disgustingly dirty that it was absolutely notable. Sleeping in rat-filled caves. It's really, like, toned down from what it used to be on the hygiene front. Main front.

I miss it. I miss those days. Yeah, there must be real reasons for that. All right, we just went an hour. Did we hit everything? I think we did.

Yeah, it's just a shame that Sari didn't get to win the season. Just say that one more time. I'll just—

I, I said it on, on the podcast, and I believe this. I, I wish she could have been on a season that was a mix of newcomers and veterans, much like Boston Rob's season, which— yeah, no disrespect to Boston Rob, he's an absolute legend in the game, legend, legend, legend. But it was him and Russell. He got Russell out early and a bunch of newcomers, and then it was just like target dummies to the win. That's legit. But I wish we would've seen Sari really work her magic against new— more newcomer players, not just the best of the best.

Have they ever done like over 40? The entire cast is over 40 or over 50, anything like that? Like a senior Survivor almost? Golden Bachelor, but for Survivor.

Golden.

Yeah, like Crush, you know, just do like a little mini season of like 14 people, but then you get Colby, you get all these people anyway, and you don't have to worry about the challenges being as dangerous.

They can also brand it a little more like, um, kindly, like something about wisdom, right? You know, the wisdom of the years. Like, they don't have to be like, you, you fuckers are old. But I do think that they have started casting way too young. Like, the bulk of the cast now each season is really— they've watched two generations of Survivor.

Yeah.

And I think it's like cool when people who have lived a lot of life are, are out there. So that would be, that would be great.

Yeah, maybe that would be what inspires my wife to finally go on. I've been pushing for her forever.

Her new thing, she would do— she would, she would do amazing.

No, she would do it. She was like, I just want to be able to— she'd win probably 3, 4 challenges. But she would also probably kill Jeff because the narration of him during the challenges, she'd be like, Jeff, shut the fuck up, I'm trying to—

that's why you never quit on Survivor. There's Carrie Simmons.

Jeff, shut up, I'm trying to do this, I'm trying to do a puzzle, stop talking. He really dialed it up in general this year. I felt like I— it, it felt like, uh, I don't know, he was locked in, which made the reunion thing so funny that fuck that up. Well, we'll see. We'll see how many people either get fired or murdered after ruining special. Yeah. Mallory, when are you going on Wait a Second?

You know, I, uh, I can't say I'm like up on all the conspiracy theories. There's got to be one conspiracy you care about.

Whatever one you've got gestating, the door is open.

You don't care about scuba divers at the Maldives?

You know, I have been served a couple Instagram reels about that. I will say I don't know if it has any connection to Survivor and the amount of like beautiful like ocean visuals in my, in my Instagram algorithm right now in general. But, uh, I'll, uh, uh, I'll give it some thought. I'll see what's— if the production team of the live Survivor Season 50, uh, the special mysteriously disappears, count me in.

I mean, okay, I'll be tracking it. Could it be like the—

with the scientists when the scientists started disappearing one at a time?

How many are we up to, like 8? I think it's 11 or 12. I think we're up to— God, unbelievable.

I might have to come on soon because I have a whole NBA thing. Oh, please, we can do NBA on Wait a Second, right?

Absolutely. We— sports, sports conspiracies are—

I have a really hardcore— like, I might have to get dressed up as Conspiracy Bill, the whole thing. Oh yeah, it's like one of those. Yeah, it's one of those.

Anyway, incredible. Yeah, doors open anytime. All right, and we've got the Zodiac Killer also waiting for you as well.

I know, I just got to do one Once, once we get through the NBA third round, I'm gonna really dive into Zodiac and we'll be ready. All right. You can watch and listen to Mallory on House of Ari. You can watch and listen to Jason on Wait a Second. Uh, great to see you both. It was fun to see you on the same screen.

An absolute delight. Thanks guys. All of you. Bye guys.

All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Mahoney. Thanks to Jason and Mallory. Thanks to Gael and Eduardo as well. Don't forget to watch Animal House this weekend because that is going to be the next rewatchable on, uh, on Monday. Get ready for that one. Enjoy the weekend. I'm gonna be live on Netflix Sunday night after the basketball game, which is going to be Game 4, Spurs-Thunder. I hope, I hope we have enough guys left on each team for an awesome game. Anyway, enjoy the weekend. I'll see you on Sunday night. Must be 21+ and present in select states. For Kansas, in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18+ and present in D.C., Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877-888-8255 8-HOPE-NY, or text HOPE-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.