Transcript of An MSG Miracle, the Wemby Arrival Game, Tottenham’s Nadir, and 'Euphoria' Season 3 | With Joe House, Chris Ryan, Anthony Dabbundo, and Zoe Simmons New

The Bill Simmons Podcast, brought to you by FanDuel. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. We did Borat. It was me and Kyle Brandt. I had a great time. We've been doing comedies all month, and it turns out it's kind of politically incorrect comedy month, um, because we did There's Something About Mary, we did Tropic Thunder, we did Borat, and now this Monday, the next one's gonna be Animal House, which is also on Netflix. They have a bunch of great comedies. Uh, somehow we've never done Animal House. Probably the, uh, the most influential modern comedy of the last 50 years. Uh, that is coming. I'm really excited to do it. This movie's been in my life basically since, uh, I was 9 years old, 10 years old, whenever I wasn't allowed to watch it and I did anyway. So Animal House is next. Go check that one out. For this podcast, Joe House and I are gonna react to Game 1, Knicks-Cavs, as well as, uh, rehash, um, we've had a day to sit with one of the great basketball games of this century, OKC-San Antonio Game 1.

Um, I have some big picture stuff about it, and then we're gonna talk about where that series might be going. So that's up first. Anthony DeBundo and Chris Ryan came on to talk about Tottenham potentially being relegated. Out of the Premier League if they lose on Sunday, basically. Um, soccer. I'm gonna start doing more of it on this podcast. I had a great time talking to them about that and the World Cup and a whole bunch of things. And then last but not least, uh, my favorite guest. I'm not allowed to pick favorites, but she is my favorite. My daughter Zoe Simmons, um, came on because she just turned 21 and we wanted to talk about a bunch of TV culture and all kinds of things. And we were joined by a very, very special guest who had never been on the podcast before. Who has 4 legs. So, uh, if you have, if you're watching this as a video podcast, I think you'll enjoy the third person on that segment. Anyway, it's all next. We're gonna take a break.

Pearl Jam.

And then Joe House and I coming off Game 1. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The Conference Finals finally is here. We are down to 4 teams. Think you know it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel. Get closer to the action. And as you know, I've been telling you for years, Fanduel, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay for a shot at a better payout, or try live betting and jump into the action after tip-off. Or just follow me and my picks, 'cause every once in a while I'll put them on social. Download the Fanduel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21+ select states or 18+ DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. All right, recording this part of the podcast a little after 8 o'clock. Tuesday night. House, this is the best 24-hour run of basketball we've had in a while. We had the incredible Spurs-Thunder game last night, and then a Knicks game that looked terrible. And yet notice, even when the Knicks were down 22 with like 7 and a half minutes left, I never sent you the text, let's start early at 3 minutes, let's just get going, because this is what the Knicks do.

And by the way, this is kind of what the Cavs do too, but an incredible comeback. Jalen Brunson on an all-time heater down the stretch. James Harden, I think, started decomposing at one point. And the Knicks did that. It didn't make up for the Halliburton game last year, but it at least made some inroads.

Yeah. I mean, the storyline here, are you not entertained? I mean, my God, the first two games of these finals, unbelievable. I have to give you a hard time.

How Yeah.

In the face of what Wemby did last night, was there no Bill Simmons content immediately thereafter?

I never thought to have a live podcast last night. It was a game. Live.

It didn't have to be live. Something.

I'm doing it with you. We're gonna do it after. We're gonna do it after we talk about the Knicks. All right.

The Wembygasm was last night. I was covered. I mean, I, I smoked 4 cigarettes. It was like I couldn't, I had to change the sheets. There was so much. It was outrageous.

We had some good Ringer podcasts today. I'm, I'm gonna levitate in with some big picture stuff. Let's talk Knicks first. Better win for the Knicks or worse loss for the Cavs? Always a fun game. I feel like this was actually a worse loss for the Cavs because now they basically, I always say this, now they have to win 5 times in a 7-game series. They shot their wad in all these different ways. I thought, I didn't agree with really anything the Knicks did for 3 quarters. They finally decided to just do 5 shooters down the stretch with Shamet. And Kenny Atkinson, I think, had an ice cream headache or a brain— I don't know what happened to him. He just kind of died on the sidelines. James Harden just getting torched by Jalen Brunson over and over and over again. He kept the two bigs out there. I, I don't know where Merrill came in, maybe with 3 minutes left. I don't think we saw Struce at all in the fourth quarter.

Yeah, that, that was the, the bizarre thing to me. That was a rock and a hard place game because you had to choose which side of the narrative coin you wanted to, to subscribe to. On the one hand, the Knicks, 9 days off, so there's gonna be rust, the rust factor. The 3-point shooting was abysmal for 3 and a half quarters.

Yes.

On the other hand, all of the numbers, uh, in the history of the NBA say that a team coming off of a Game 7 win with a short turnaround time on the road It's very much in favor of the home team with the rest. And you know, that's definitely the get the betting angle that you're supposed to do.

So somehow that got borne out because that's what happened and the Knicks somehow covered. And yet if you watched the game, you felt like the Cavs were in complete control. I was wondering complete and complete control. I was wondering 3 quarters in, I'm like, fuck, what do they do with this big lineup? Like, are they gonna have to start Towns and Robinson next game? Are they gonna have to match the bigs with the bigs? And then they went the other way. They went shooters. And you know, I think Mitchell, I had him down after the third quarter with 24 points. So he had 5 points in the last 17 minutes of the game and just was not involved. Felt like Harden was, was, had the ball all the time on one end and then on the other end was just constantly defending Brunson over and over again. And I don't know where Mitchell was either. So that was your worst case scenario. If I'm a Cavs fan, I have in the deep recesses of my brain, I'm terrified of James Harden in big games. I'm terrified of teams honing in on him and making him play defense.

And then I'm also worried that there's gonna be a little who should take over here, which I thought they had solved, but I guess they didn't.

Well, we had another oops, he did it again. James Harden, 5 made field goals. Oh, 6 turnovers. 5 made field goals, 6. How is that possible? How in this era can a guy have this many games where, where turnovers surpass made field goals?

Well, he's old. I mean, he's old. That's one thing. One thing I noticed the Knicks were doing with him, and I didn't understand why the, the previous 2 playoff teams didn't do this. I don't really think he can go by anyone anymore. And the Knicks were— he does the thing, he does a lot of stutter steps like he's gonna, and then he does the step back. And I thought the last two rounds everyone was falling for that. And then this, especially Bridges, who I thought was great tonight. Bridges was like, yeah, he was. Dude, I'm not falling for that. I don't think you're going by me. And when you go and do that step back, I'm gonna be right there in your face. And I, I just thought Harden had a lot of trouble getting going. Mobley was really good. And then Mitchell was, I had all these notes that I guess I just have to throw away about Mitchell after three quarters. 'Cause I had this whole thing about, Is this Mitchell's moment? All first team All-NBA guys who never made the Finals, which is like kind of a shorter list than you think.

It's basically like Dame, Nash, Paul George, C. Webb, Tracy McGrady, Joel Embiid. Like it's less than 10 people. And it was like, can he get off that list? Can he have like his, maybe this is it. And the Knicks looked so dispirited. It just felt like, maybe we read this series wrong. I really thought the Knicks were gonna kill the Cavs in this series.

0:00:00.0 Well, the version of the Knicks that I thought, um, what was the advantage version was the first quarter where all of their points are coming in the paint. And that's true, they dominated points in the paint this entire game. Um, and, and their ability, especially you made the good observation about Bridges, um, and, and his defense on, on Harden. He, he just, they, they have of a, an advantage over Detroit. Detroit doesn't have any guards that could put any pressure at all on Cleveland's guards. But immediately the Knicks made Harden and Mitchell uncomfortable. Now I thought Mitchell was pretty awesome across the game, but it's the full Mitchell experience till the fourth quarter. Guess how many, guess how many free throws he took?

How many?

One. He was one for one from the free throw line.

And what was he for assist?

And this is the issue, right? Uh, he ended up with 3 assists and 4 turnovers. But here's the thing, right? When you are in the midst of the run that the Knicks went on, and they waited about as long as they could wait, it was, you know, it was 22 points with 7 and a half minutes left.

Like, this has happened 5 times in the history of the playoffs, right?

But the, the, the true greats, the true greats The guys, the first-team All-NBA guys recognize what's, what, what is happening and they go into their bag.

Yeah, right.

They settle their own team down, settle down, and they change the pace of what the other team is trying to do. You got to get to the free throw line at that point. You have to, you can't keep just chucking up threes. And that's what Cleveland did. That's why Mobley ended up with, with 16 attempts.

Right.

8 3-point attempts from, from Mobley.

You know, I just think blowing a 22-point lead, I don't care how great the crowd was. We'll talk about the crowd in a second. How much of a heater Brunson was on. 22 points is so many points in 7 minutes that it's so many points. I felt like Atkinson was just this passive observer to the whole thing. I remember I've told this story before, but the Celtics-Pacers Game 7 in 2005. So this is Ricky Davis, Paul Pierce, that team. And it was the post-Melee Pacers. And I thought that was one of the best coaching jobs I've ever seen by Carlisle that year. And he was like, he was still missing some of his guys, but they took a big lead. And every time the Celtics even had a, a chance of coming, he was timeout, like, or like some sort of thing to stop it. And it was just disjointed from that point on. That Knicks run, it just felt like it was continuous. I, it was like watching a sports movie. Just felt like Brunson had the ball over and over and over again. They didn't really trap him until like 2 minutes left.

And then the big thing was Towns had that terrible foul. Yes. Where he has to pretend he can't believe they called it. It's like, you fucking pulled the guy, Towns.

So, I mean, OG is inside the free throw line with 6 feet of space in front of him.

Right.

And Towns is holding Allen.

And I think that was to cut it to 2. And then the Cavs went back up 6. And it was like, wow, Towns just screwed up the game for them. But then Bridges made a huge 3 and that like near the end of the shot clock too. And then Shamet made a massive 3 and all of a sudden it was tied. Then Harden made a really nice little James Harden foul line thing. Brunson came back and made it. We gotta talk about how great some of that shot making Brunson. I mean, we've seen him do that, so you almost take it for granted.

Yes.

But he had 5 holy shit shots during that run. He had like, opposite hand floaters off the glass. He had like high ones that seemed like there was no chance it was gonna go in, but it did. He was hitting threes and, and the Knicks fan off the set, he did, he threw us off the set.

Second and third quarter, he was shit. They scored 23 points the first quarter, the second quarter, the third quarter, 23, 23, and 23.

Well, the thing is we, and we're texting at the end of the third quarter about a live bet on the Knicks because we've seen this Knicks game 15 times this year, right? And we thought they had graduated out of it. Maybe the Hawks series and the Philly series, like that this is now the new Knicks. They're using Towns more. But the reality is they played a bunch of games like this this year where they look like shit for 3 quarters and then they go on a heater. And I think the crowd was waiting for it. I was waiting for it. But once it got to 7 and a half minutes left, down by 22, it's like, okay, I guess maybe they missed the window. And then Brunson was just like, boom. And the crowd knew it. They knew when it got to within 15, they knew it was happening. And I thought that crowd was, uh, was a 10 out of 10. Kudos to everybody who was there.

No, they were dying. They were waiting for any, just the slightest opening. Yeah. And the fact that it came with 7 and a half minutes left, just all they, all they needed the Knicks to do was string together a couple of, of, of buckets. But I, I do want to pat myself on the back a tiny bit for your last bit. Yes, because at the end of the third quarter going into the fourth, what I texted to our thread, does anyone feel like the Knicks can make a fourth quarter run in this shitfest?

What did I text you back? I said yes.

I, I'm, I'm staring at 10.5 like it might grow a pair of boobs. That's, that's what I wrote to our group.

You did. I'm like staring at it. Direct, direct quote from Mouse.

And then, you know, to, to Raheem's credit, Dream says, you know what? On Christmas Day, we had a very similar scenario. Me and, and our boy JJ Justremski tried to talk— Dreamin' JJ tried to say, no, don't do it, don't mess with it. Yeah, you don't, don't. And then, and then by golly, the Knicks came all the way. And you reminded everybody, this is the Knicks, this is what the Knicks do. It's incredible.

This is what they do. Uh, with that said, at the end of regulation, Sam Merrill semi-wide open Takes a 3.

It was down.

Mike Breen gave it a half— he gave it a bah. Did you hear this? I rewound it to make sure. He said, here's Merrill for 3, bah! No, it's out! He said the bah. He said the double bangs.

This was his first time. He was gonna bang it. He was gonna bang it.

And it really did, like, it went in and rattled out and just got the ghost of MSG kicked it out. But that thing was dead center.

Do you think the Cavaliers can lodge a complaint about Breen doing these games in MSG You know, he, the, the, the, the, the, the karma of Mike Breen calling a Knicks— he is the most impartial, he's brilliant, but I mean, the, the karma, buh.

Did he do the one last year though? Did he do Halliburton last year? That would be— maybe he did. 'Cause it switches every year. So Brunson ended up, what did he end up with for the game? Did he have 38, but he had 36 after regulation. And so I, 42-11 run for the Knicks at one point. So I don't know, what do we name this game? Is it the Buh Game? Is it the God Hates Cleveland Game? This might be a God Hates Cleveland Game.

I don't know. It, it's, it's, it's too much. Like it's an outcome where, uh, if you had shown this to us, this box score, oh, it went to overtime. That's cute. Uh, you say, oh, Cleveland, good job, good job, Cleveland, good effort, good try.

So much worse than that. It was, it was, well, get me up 22 because they had this whole narrative about getting over the hump. We thought they revealed themselves on Friday night when they completely choked in that Detroit game and they were just awful, right? Then that Game 7, Mitchell plays one of the best games of his career. Um, they tossed their balls on the table. And yet today they reverted back to who they were. 53s, by the way, 16 for 50. 53s I don't love from them either. Just don't like 19 turnovers.

They have all the 8 threes from Mobley. I just don't like it.

And for 3 quarters I thought they were doing everything right. Like, even when they started doing the hacker Robinson, I was like, yeah, I kind of like this. Don't let the Knicks get back in the game inside.

Yeah, they definitely have an advantage inside. I mean, there, there is— Towns was lost. They, they can't run him.

It was awful.

They didn't at the elbow. You know what, the way that the Knicks had so much success in the last series, they had Karl-Anthony Towns at the elbow.

Did you see his turnovers?

At the free throw line.

Yeah. 7.

The free, yeah, yeah.

And they were putting little guys on him. And the announcers, Jefferson and Legler, our guys, they were like, I don't understand why they don't put Towns on the low block and try to punish these guards. It's like, could you, yeah, we ask that question every time this happens. They never do it. He doesn't want to go down there. That's just, what it is. So they gotta unlock him. I thought they were way too Brunson-centric for the first 3 quarters. 4th quarter they had to 'cause that was the only way they're getting back in the game. But they, they felt very stagnant. Same old Brunson stuff. And the, the Mitch and Towns, I would consider throwing that lineup out there together a little bit too.

For Cleveland, the version of OG also first game back in, in what is it, 2 weeks now?

And that was another big Cleveland mistake.

2 for 9.

Guess who I'm leaving wide open in the last 5 minutes of the game and trapping off his guy? OG. Yeah, I didn't think his threes were going in. He shot that airball in overtime. I didn't—

well, he didn't think they were going either.

He didn't want to shoot it. He was like trying to pass him.

He stopped taking the threes and he started driving in, and to get to, you know, inside the free throw line, he was going for a floater.

And that—

I mean, he was going for a floater on the play that Towns committed the foul.

Yeah. Um, the crowd tonight, so this has been obviously the Knicks have Ignited the city. This series, and then the Finals if they can get there, are gonna be among the hardest tickets in New York history. Crowd was locked in today. Nobody left. There was a moment, I think it was after, maybe when Shamet, whoever hit the game-tying 3, it was either Shamet or Bridges, and they wide shot it and Cleveland didn't call timeout and the announcers weren't even talking 'cause I don't even think they could hear it. And they did the wide shot. And people were just jumping up and down. It was, it was like, it was like a walk-off baseball home run or something. Everybody was just so deliriously happy that they came back. It was a really great atmosphere. I kind of wish I had gone. I think it would have been worth a 3,000-mile trip to be, to be there for that one. You know, I don't—

game one?

No, I'm just saying I wish I'd been in the atmosphere of that.

Yes, for sure.

I mean, the Knicks fans are about as thirsty as it gets. Pretty soon you'll be there with AJ DeBansa and Towns and Trae Young.

Maybe.

Ke'Shawn George.

Maybe. Why not? Why not us?

Could happen. All right, so what do we think for the series? I'll give you some odds. Don't look. The series odds right now. Every time I go to FanDuel now, they send me to the prediction thing first, and then I have to go roundabout around it. Come on, FanDuel. Um, playoffs futures. Okay. Ooh, that seems high. Minus 375 for the Knicks.

That sounds right.

Just for winning game 1, which they were supposed to win.

They had the, the, you, you said at the beginning, Cavs have to win 4 out of the next, you know.

Well, you got to tell us. Is this it for the Cavs? Is that a death blow?

What?

No, I mean, do you think they could win this series?

Would you, would you wager on, on the Cavs +310?

I wouldn't wager on the, I didn't wager on the Cavs at the beginning of the series. Nothing's changed about my opinion on this.

I think they're done. You know, I think they had to win this game.

The single biggest difference to me is the return of OG who got to the free throw line 10 times, even with all of the you know, the weird shooting coming in.

Yeah, but that, that explosive too.

Yeah, it's just a deep team. It's just, it, they, they have weapons in a lot of different ways. They can defend, you know, with, with the best of them. And the fact that they were asleep for two quarters after not playing competitive basketball, uh, against a team that just came off a Game 7 win. Yeah, you don't, it doesn't change my opinion, uh, overall of what this Knicks team is all about and where I think they're headed.

Rusty and lethargic. I have more concerns about Towns than I did 3 days ago, but I, I feel like they can— some of the stuff the Cavs were doing, I wonder in the Knicks series, especially if they play the Wemby UFO, I think, I think, uh, I think some of, some of the tricks will be emulated. Okay, we've talked about the Knicks series enough. That was a great game. Not as great as the game last night. We're gonna take a break.

Not as great as That's right.

We take a break and then we're gonna talk about one of the great games of the 21st century. Thunder Spurs, Game 1. The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. We are halfway through the NBA playoffs and they're getting better and better. Every possession matters. Every bucket swings the game. Tonight is your shot to boost your bet because all customers get a profit boost Tonight on FanDuel. So when the moment hits, you win bigger. FanDuel giving better payouts on same-game parlays all NBA playoffs long. I'm gonna figure out something for San Antonio, OKC game 2, a series that I am obsessed with. I have a lot of thoughts on matchups, who might play. I think I can put together a good SGP for this, but lock in your bets, boost your odds, make the playoffs pay off with FanDuel, official sport betting partner of the NBA. Head to fanduel.com/bs to get started. Fanduel, play your game. 21+ select states or 18+ D.C., Kentucky, Wyoming. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra. You know what my favorite thing about the playoffs is?

I like during, and it's usually maybe a Game 4, Might even be a Game 5. Game 7, everyone's nervous. There's a different level of energy. But Game 4, Game 5, for one of the two teams, there's this realization with like 5 minutes left in the fourth quarter where it's like, uh-oh, our fate is, is suddenly in real flux right now. Who's stepping up? What are we gonna do? Let's calm down. Can we rise to the moment or are we gonna shrink from it? It's as great as opening up A Michelob Ultra, a nice cold one, crisp, refreshing, the ultimate prize. Plus, as the official beer partner of the NBA, they're giving fans a chance to win courtside tickets, custom merch, and more. You could be at one of those games when the pressure rises. Michelob Ultra, superior is worth playing for. Enter now at michelobultra.com/courtside. Michelob Ultra Courtside 25-26. No purchase necessary. Open to U.S. residents 21+. Begins on October 1st, 2025. Ends on June 30th, 2026. Multiple entry periods. See official rules at michelobultra.com/courtside for free entry, entry deadlines, and prizes and details. All right, House. The arrival. The UFO has landed. Wemby has emerged from the UFO.

He's 7'7" and he's here to dominate the league. I had a Tiger '97 Augusta kind of feeling watching the game last night, like that something was changing for real. The sport was being upended in a real way. And I know that's gonna sound stupid if they end up losing this series, but I don't even think it— the win or lose the series doesn't matter. He was doing something last night that I just felt like something the sport had shifted. And then I'm not the only person to say that, but it did bring me back to Augusta. And all of a sudden, Augusta, it just felt small for Tiger. Remember we were like, fuck, this was like the hardest, weirdest course we have. And he's like just annihilating it. What's happening? Everything Wemby was doing last night, he, he took out SGA. SGA was a mess. He completely took out Chet to the point that it was almost debatable whether he should be out there. He took out Harden, Harden, Stein, they had to take out 2 minutes into the game. He changed 50 shots, 41 points, 24 rebounds, the blocks. He had a 32-footer to tie the game.

He had a game-tying shot in the end of regulation. And, uh, did this all on the road, did this with the fuck you energy from the MVP not getting that. Shout out to Hakeem in '95 against Robinson. Was hard not to think about that moment. I sent you the YouTube clip last night and just backed it up in all these different ways. And I, I think, for me, it's that he walks the walk and then backs it up and does shit that we've just never seen. And it, you know, talking about arrival games, MJ's 63-point game, Kobe in the 2000 Finals after Shaq fouled out in Game 4, LeBron in 2007, the 48 Special against Detroit. Curry had that unbelievable 2013 Game 1 against the Spurs, which everybody forgets now 'cause there's been so many great games, but He, when he goes into the next round against the Spurs, I think he has, I don't know, like 10 threes or 40+ points and just was going against this great Spurs team by himself. Felt like on that level, like it was a before and after with this game. You agree with that?

Of course. And the numbers back it up. I mean, you have to go all the way back to 1970 to find a performance where a player 22 years old or younger has a combination of 40-20. That's Kareem. There's only 2 players in the history of the game at that age to have a 40-20. That's Kareem and now Wemby.

Yeah.

And, and you have to use as your reference point all of the great playoff performances, the highest leverage performances. To create the context. And if we didn't have that Pacers comeback last year against the Knicks, that, that just incredible out of the—

the Halberd game. Yeah.

You could say like, you know, so I was in my text thread, greatest game 1 in a, in a conference finals ever.

I have the list.

I mean, I made a list in the conversation.

Here's what I wrote down. You tell me if it beat these games. I went to this game, so I'm a little biased. 2018 Game 1 Finals, the J.R. Smith game. I think that was the last great game, and that game was 8 years ago. 'Cause LeBron is going against this, you know, juggernaut, all-time Golden State team. Yes. And he's basically taking it to him by the, by himself and physically dominated them. I think he had 50 or 51, whatever he did.

Cleveland lost.

Cleveland lost in OT.

That's the problem.

I'm just talking about as a game. That game was fucking awesome. That game was an awesome game.

Yes.

Off the charts awesome.

Okay.

And it was Durant and Curry at their peak and the Warriors still really good. That game was awesome. Uh, the Haliburton miracle last year, that was a game one. And then the Iverson 2001 Finals against the Lakers. I think those are the most important 4 for this century for different reasons, right? Iverson.

Yeah.

Iverson really needed that one in the legacy, in the big picture. It's the only time he made the finals. He took, that was the best Laker team, and I think that was probably the second best team of this century. And he just went toe to toe with Shaq and Kobe and beat them. Did the stepover.

Shaq had a 40-20 that game. We were, we were reminded, right? You know, inside of the NBA this, this evening?

So I would go those 4 and then the runner-ups, the 2008 Finals Celtics-Lakers Game 1, the Paul Pierce wheelchair game. So even that became the, the me— and it was also a really good game, but just that the Celtics and Lakers were in a Finals again and the hype leading up to that I think is there. Dallas-San Antonio '03. Dirk had a 38-15, Duncan had a 40-15, and this was like, we thought this was gonna be the start of a Dirk versus Duncan run, and it ended up for a variety of reasons not getting what, but that game was awesome. I don't wanna sleep on that. '97 Finals, Chicago, Utah. Malone wins the MVP and then Jordan hits the game winner and does the—

Yes.

That's gotta be on there. '95 Finals, Orlando, Houston. Nick Anderson, the free throws, the 4 free throws. I wouldn't say that was a great game, but if you're talking drama and memory, sure, it was one of the most memorable games I've ever seen.

I remember watching his career. I know right where I was.

Yeah.

I could put myself right back there right now.

Same year, Indy, New York, round 2 was the Reggie 8 points in 9 seconds.

Okay.

'92 Finals, Chicago, Portland, MJ hits the 6 threes, 35 in the first half, does the shrug.

That was the game 1.

Yeah.

Wow.

And then the '91 Finals, which is another one that's like an awesome game, but it's 35 years ago. Bulls-Lakers, Magic versus MJ for the first time. Magic hits Perkins for a 3 to go ahead. MJ has a jumper to tie it, and it does the Mike Breen bah and rattles around but doesn't go in, and they lose. And I think in the last 40 years, those are the ones. And I could go 70s, '80s, '90s. But those—

tell everybody, go on YouTube and watch some of these games.

Please go watch those. But I really think this century Those 4, '26, '18, Golden State, Cleveland, the Halliburton game and the Iverson game. I think those were the best 4. Usually game 1s aren't great. We've had some fun weird ones. Like remember that year Phoenix beat San Antonio in like '03, '02, somewhere in there with Marbury. Marbury hit like a half-court shot.

Oh yeah, that was crazy.

And it was like the one great Marbury Phoenix moment, or maybe it was 2001. I don't remember, 2003, whatever it was. We've had some good ones that Celtics-Bulls 2009, Rose's rookie year was good. But, um, those are the best ones. Usually the series, there's like a feeling out and this one didn't. And it was one of the things I wrote down was like, how's like the speed of that game compared to what normal basketball is. Like you watch a game like tonight and it just feels like it's on a, a podcast that's 1.0 versus last night the game was at a 1.5.

Well, part of it, that is because these teams are familiar with each other, this iteration of these teams. And what the Spurs did that's so remarkable over the course of the regular season, they used each of these matchups with Oklahoma City as referendum games for them. Yeah, like, this is why that organization is heads and shoulders above all, all others, you know, in the league. It's, it's why the Spurs have occupied rarefied air for 35 years, 30 years, let's say.

Well, they've also had some, some fucking luck.

No doubt.

They won the Wembley Lottery and the Duncan Lottery.

And the Duncan Lottery.

3 teams passed on Dylan Hart— on Stephon Castle, including your stupid team. And then Dylan Harper at 2.

All that is true. And yet they are— they are— they've routinely maximized that good fortune. They really have. You're correct. And they jump through the opportunity door. And it's apparent that this season coming into it, they're like, every time that we play Oklahoma City, we are going to get in that ass. We're going to— it's an experiment. We're going to be physical. We're going to run SGA off the ball. I mean, part of the thing you gave Wemby credit for some impact on SGA. The answer to that to me is yes, but it was a masterful—

it was everybody.

Yeah, it was everybody. It's the physicality of those guards. They double him, they run him off the ball, and what that creates is open shots for Alex Caruso. That's fine because Caruso knocked a whole bunch of them down and Oklahoma City could have won. But I think the Spurs are like, if we lose to Alex Caruso, that's okay. We are willing to live with that.

By the way, what the Cavs should have done tonight with Anunoby.

Yeah, they sure—

I mean, the thing last night Wemby's point guard because De'Aaron Fox doesn't play. Castle mostly plays point guard. He's 11 turnovers. He played hard. He did a lot of good things, but 11 turnovers.

He was trying.

And the other ball handler, Dylan Harper, who had an awesome game, and I want to talk about him in a little bit, but he's 20 years old and they're in OKC. And at one point, there's a couple points where OKC is like, here are all our best defensive guys. We're just putting them all out there. Good luck. And, uh, it felt like they couldn't start their offense within 40 feet from the basket. It felt like they couldn't even figure out how to get Wemby the ball even though he's 7'7", 25 feet from the basket. Um, and Wemby still pulled off the game with some help from, from his guys. There was a couple of big threes, like Champagny hit a huge three in the corner. Um, I thought Facel had a couple really big plays.

He did.

Castle. Um, never lost his confidence even with all the turnovers, which I really appreciated. And I thought the defense, the fact that I wrote down in my notes, they basically, they basically forced O.K. See into this lineup that I'm not sure they're gonna not be able to do the rest of the time where they, they basically had 3 guards with J Dub, with Chet.

Yeah.

Because They have to figure out a way to pull Wemby away from the basket. So they're just gonna, like, Hartenstein, I don't think can play in this series. I don't, I'm not positive Dort can really play big minutes in crunch time in this series either. 'Cause whoever they have who's not a threat, Wemby's just gonna guard that guy and help off him. So, um, it's gonna be a chess match, but I feel like the, the chess has already been played to some degree. We'll see. The questions for me is, In the next game, are they gonna just say, Fox and Harper, shoot threes until your heart— we're gonna double team Wemby, we're gonna trap him, we're gonna make him give up the ball, and if you guys hit threes, God bless. I would assume that's the move for them. OKC, I think, already made their moves by the second half of that game. I don't know.

There, there, there are some things it feels like OKC can do to free up SGA. Like, you know, we're gonna see some innovation yet.

Like what though?

Well, I, I mean, there'll be, uh, some unique screening kind of situations. You know, we're gonna see a version of SGA, I imagine, that's akin to the way that Steph gets free. They run him off of, off of, you know, pinda. He, he's running the, the entire, the entirety of possession.

That's not totally his game though. I was wondering, are they gonna stagger him for when Wemby's out of the game? You bring him, you try to have SGA in the 10 non-Webby minutes and stuff like that to just try to—

that also sounds like a fine, uh, way of doing it. But what they have to get comfortable with and what SGA has to get comfortable with is he's got to, um, be a mid-range shooter now because you just can't go, go to the rim. You can't get to the rim. And then, then you can see Oklahoma City, um, palpably dramatically impacted. It's not just the blocks and the altered shots, it's that the lane is no longer available. So you have to become comfortable in the mid-range, and that is, uh, a version of basketball you and I watched. We grew up with it, but it's not how they play modern basketball.

Yeah, there was some good stats. Uh, D Lee 43— David Lee, that's his Twitter account though— um, was talking about how SGA drives basically 19 times a game during the season and passes 38% of the time. But last night, 30 drives and he passed 54% of the time, right? So it's not a huge thing, but it felt that way watching it. Like he was trying to get to spots and there was always Wemby. I had this reader sent, uh, listener sent this great email about how we should nickname, change Wemby's nickname to Jaws. Because when the people decide to go in the paint, it's like when the swimmers go in the water and it's like, na na na na, they're tripping. It's just— and then Wemby's just kind of looming around with the shark costume. But it does feel like he's changed SJ. I don't know how SJ snaps out of it, but SJ just didn't seem as comfortable. He actually seemed the most comfortable just doing step-back threes. Right.

So that, that could work. That could work. I mean, he is the MVP of the league. We are going to see some wrinkles out of this, this Oklahoma City. This, this is part of why this series feels so rich. It's because the strategy element of this, I expect to see something new every game. We're not going to see the same game twice. I don't feel like in this series.

Well, you know what else we might see in this game, this game too. Is, uh, hey, can we start roughing up Wemby here? There was a clip that went around, uh, this morning about Chet stepping on his foot during a free throw. Did you see that?

No, I didn't see it.

They were next to each other boxing out, and right when the ball went up, Chet just stepped on his foot to try to trip him. And I wonder if they're gonna start doing a whole bunch of stuff like that and trying to get in his head. One thing with San Antonio, they don't really have an enforcer.

Well, this is like, if you're gonna play Hardenstein, he has 6 fouls. Like that, that's the point of, of Isaiah Hardenstein being on the floor.

Yeah.

Is the 6 fouls that he brings to the table.

I know, but it just unleashes Wemby on the other end. He can just do whatever he wants. But you're right, maybe use them to beat him up. I think ultimately Chet's gonna have to figure out a way to defend him because the problem with putting the guards on him, which sort of worked and got Caruso going, but then you give up all these offensive rebounds. Like he had 9 offensive rebounds last night. So you're, you're, you're making it harder for 'em to get the ball, but then on possessions, you're giving them like an extra 6, 7, 8 possessions a game. And I don't think that's worth it. Big picture on Wemby, we weren't there for Wilt. We were there for, we're old enough to remember '70s Kareem with the goggles, and then obviously '80s Kareem when he wasn't really the same. But it, this does feel like what that must have been like when you just went to a game and Wilt was just destroying everybody.

Sure.

We've had, you know, we've had some great centers over the years that we've certainly loved talking about and loved watching, but that when somebody can do it on both ends like that and just completely destroy the psyche of a crowd, and you know, we didn't even talk about the 32-foot shot yet, which was one of the great moments of the century for basketball for me, like an All-time holy shit from the exact Steph Curry spot. Um, I, I— did you think it was going in? Because I actually did. I don't know why it happened. I was like, I like it so fast.

It was both an ooh, and I was actually— I had my kid with me, and I— because I grabbed him. I'm like, you got to watch this. You, you are not permitted—

this is—

yeah, this is— this is a must-watch.

And you want— you're going to be pointing to this, you know, as you grow up, as, as you know, something significant.

And we both—

I had an ooh. I was like, when he pulled up, I go, ooh. And then I was like, ah, you know, oh, one of those. Yeah, one of those. Like, unbelievable.

I was looking for it because he, he kind of likes that shot. The problem was he was so far away, far away, but I saw him trailing and I was like, yeah, kind of just watching it. But then when he pulled up, I thought he was gonna stop and realize he was too far and he just Just fired it.

Somebody took the clip of Steph doing it with Breen's double bang and synced up the timing with Wemby so they're on top of each other. And it's really— whoever did it, extraordinary job.

It's basically the same spot, right?

It is. It is. You can see that's what makes it so impressive is it's like Steph and Wemby are in the same spot on the floor.

I went back and I read the piece that I wrote after LeBron's 48 special against Detroit. And you know, it was like this realized potential thing for all of us. And I, I thought actually, I actually kind of liked what I wrote. I was like, all right, I kind of captured that one a little bit. But it was basically like, here's this guy with all these tools and we're hoping it's inside him and we're watching game after game, week after week, kind of hoping something like this will happen. And then it started happening. Now he's doing that against an '07 Pistons team that was getting a little long in the tooth. The league's pretty weak that year. There's only like 5 teams that, you know, the Cavs made the Finals that year with one of the worst Finals teams we've had. But it was a moment and it was like a really good sign when it happened. Like, oh, this guy, he really might have it. Like, this might be like a real Jordan challenger. This is the first real sign we have that there's some real specialness here. I already felt that way with Wemby.

And even we were texting before the game, the MVP thing, it was like notable because of the history of what's happened in basketball with this, with Jordan and Malone in '97 and with Hakeem and Robinson. It was like, this is interesting. He's not going to like that they gave SGA the MVP. And I think that's my favorite thing about him about anything is I think he's a real fucking dick. Like he's a competitive motherfucker. I do love that. Did you see that video of him watching the ceremony? He was like pissed off.

Yes, yes. That, that, that, I mean, and, and all of those historical parallels that we just eat up. We, we just can't get enough.

Yeah, this is what we love.

And, and we get the benefit. Uh, I mean, there was a half dozen different ways for the Spurs to lose that basketball game.

There sure was.

Like, what did you think?

Including the 32-point 32, uh, foot 3, uh, 3.

I, uh, and that was the first overtime. Yeah, they were down, they were down 3 at that point. It was in, it wasn't even regulation, it was in overtime.

I thought they were gonna lose. I thought they were gonna lose because, because of the minutes.

Yeah, because we have, we haven't seen it out of, out of him. And the impact of no Fox, what that meant, you know, that the extra minutes on Harper, the extra minutes on, on Castle and the, the, yeah, the turnovers. I mean, I, what did Harper and Castle combine for turnover-wise? I, they were discombobulated.

I kept thinking back to that Denver, that Saturday Denver-San Antonio game that was awesome, that went in overtime. Jokic's last great game. He, the game that earned Jokic number 2 on my MVP ballot. I thought Wemby got tired in the, in the overtime of that game. And you could see it.

Yeah.

So when I was watching the game last night, I kept thinking he was gonna wear down and he just didn't. Like whether it was the adrenaline of what was going on or the fact that they hadn't played for a couple days. But I, I never thought he looked that tired. The Spurs guys after the game said he had no legs. We couldn't believe he took that. I never felt like he was worn out because I think when he gets worn out, he starts falling down and you can kind of see it. I didn't feel that way last night.

I felt like he, he showed some, some fatigue, but I think Oklahoma City couldn't be— can't be, we'll see how it goes— as physical as Minnesota was. So like, I, you know, I think it was a little bit of a breather for him against Oklahoma City because he just didn't have to take on any of that physicality. I mean, the, the size of Minnesota was was legit and it was the only way for them to really compete was to lean on him, to push him, to be in his space, and they could rotate Gobert and Randle in that role. Oklahoma City doesn't have that.

No. I— the other thing with Wemby, I don't say this lightly, I really feel like he checks all the competitive boxes. Even when I've seen him in person, I don't feel like he's mailing it in, doesn't give a shit. Like, I feel like he really cares and he's really competitive all the time though. Honestly, the way Jordan was, that was one of the things we loved about Jordan. Jordan always cared. He always put, put the proper level of competitiveness and respect on the game and really like just wanted to cut everybody's throat out. And it, it does feel like Wemby's wired like that a little bit. And I, for a center, that's a really rare trait.

That's the accelerant. This is why we're in this position where we're having to revisit our priors on how quickly can a young team come together and really properly threaten. The history of the NBA is littered with upstart teams, upstart young teams who have the talent but don't have the basketball IQ, the wherewithal, the, the, you know, the reps under these high-leverage moments.

And I wonder if it's the '77 Blazers is the only team that did it. That's a really—

I wonder if they were accumulating those reps over the regular season.

How about this? What I mean, did Wemby— did the— was the Olympics his version of those reps? I got that email a few times from people because it sounded like, oh, he's never tasted his own blood. It's like, he actually did in the '24 Olympics. Right. That was the first time he took some haymakers. Yeah.

Yeah.

Steph gave it to him. He, and he got to understand what it was like.

This is why I was wondering aloud about this idea of each of those games against Oklahoma City in the regular season as referendum, like really mattering stick games. And they kicked ass all season long. They did not take nights off to your observation, your point. That's right. They didn't. That competitiveness. And it wasn't just Wemby. It was that whole Spurs team. Cause Wemby missed a whole bunch of games.

Yeah.

And they still, you know, won the number that they won and it was like 25 games over whatever their, their win total, 20 games over what their forecasted win total was supposed to be.

Like I said Sunday, I thought, I genuinely thought they were gonna win this series. And I think Wemby, I, I just think we're gonna be coming to grips with what's happening here over the course of the next 4 weeks. I was on one text thread where they were like, said like, oh, there's those of me who's the face of the league and doing all that stuff. And it's like, I didn't, I don't know what face of the league means. I just know that this is the biggest appointment TV viewing that the league has had since Curry and the Warriors in the middle 2010s. And this doesn't happen very often. We weren't sure if it was going to happen again with anybody we had. And we always try to put the guys that we have in position. You know, I, you and I love watching Joker. Not everyone loves watching him. Wemby appeals to every single person because of how tall he is and how skilled he is and how unusual he is and how much he gives a shit. And I, I think this will end up being probably the most watched series, non-finals that the league has had, at least in 10 years, you know?

And it's definitely passes the mom test. I'm sure.

Yes.

I'm sure whoever, whoever, whoever's mom or dad that doesn't follow sports probably brought up the Wemby game to you today, right? That not to, or to whoever's listening. It's just the way it is.

And people who missed it, they won't miss, uh, tomorrow night. They won't miss, you know, the, the Wednesday night game because it is absolutely appointment TV. We have the reigning MVP of the league in SGA. That's a controversial figure, you know, the worm has turned a little bit.

A lot of—

you gotta get 50/50 on foul merchant, um, out of, out of SGA.

They weren't calling them yesterday. The refs were great yesterday. I liked it on both sides.

You and me both. I thought it was fine. I thought it was a very fair game. But, you know, and you put that alongside a player that none of us have seen. You had, you know, Jamal Crawford last night say, we've never seen a guy like this before. We can't really process it. I mean, I have my quibbles with Reggie Miller.

Oh, really? Oh, God.

Oh, God. Just leave it alone. There's no reason.

He's a nice guy. Um, Dylan Harper.

Okay, let's do it.

I watched the game yesterday with my daughter, who's coming up later on the podcast actually, um, who was half paying attention all the time. And at one point she turned to me and said, wow, you really love Dylan Harper. Is he like your favorite non-Celtic? And I said, I think he might be. I, I think like after Jokic and Curry, I just love Dylan Harper. I love how he plays. I sound, I sound like Collinsworth. I just love that kid. I just love that kid so much. I was just in awe of what he was doing yesterday where they're like, hey, Fox isn't playing. We know you're 20 and we know we're going against the team that has the best collection of defensive guards probably in the last 15 years. Do you think you could give us 40+ minutes tonight and do a whole bunch of shit and maybe go iso every once in a while and go grab some rebounds? Oh, and jump in the passing lanes and get— what do you have, 7 steals? And get big rebounds in traffic. Oh, and don't get tired even though you should be like a sophomore in college.

I thought what he did was out of control. And if anything, I was texting people during crunch time in the OTs, like, as you know, as the Castle thing was really going sideways, like, why don't they run stuff for Harper? Why don't they run high pick and roll for him with a shooter? Like, I want to see— I think OKC would have trouble defending that.

Headed with the ball across half court.

I know. First, maybe that was part of the problem.

And he ended up being the guy a bunch of times.

Yeah, I think they really need him in this series. But what he did yesterday, I thought I was just, I was so impressed. And I'll say this, House, you know I don't say stuff like this lightly because you've known me for almost 40 years. To me, like, we saw Kidd in college and, you know, the first 5 years you and I were, we, I didn't even have a, internet column when he got traded the first time, and you and I were so apoplectic that they traded him. Dallas, we were like, how do you trade Jason Kidd? Are you guys like, that's insane, dude. How do you ever in a million years do that? I think of him, I think of Chris Paul in the mid-2000s. Like we're talking about like top 50 guys ever and some of the best young guards we've seen in our lifetime. And I think he's gonna be as good as those guys. I really do. I think he's gonna be like a Hall of Fame, multiple first-team All-NBA type of guard.

Well, the cool thing is, if you had Harper stock when they drafted him, an important element of what's going to propel that stock into return on investment, you know, double-digit strata, is how free he can play basketball with playing alongside Victor Wembenyama.

It's the perfect guy to play with him.

He's absolutely perfect. That's exactly— he only shot 1 for 7 from, from, from 3 last time.

I know.

Uh, and, and it would have been— but he got to the free throw line. I mean, he's the multi-faceted— 11 rebounds. Like, how is he getting double-digit rebounds? Well, that, that's what the team needed out of him. And, and, you know, he was able to drop down and grab, uh, and, and The poise going to the hole. This is what—

poise and physicality.

There you go. That's it. That's right. Exactly. He took every bump. He took every bit of— and this is why the Spurs are so live in the series. It's because I think they can out-physical Oklahoma City.

Yeah.

Right. They took the blow that Minnesota represented. Minnesota was a wake-up call. Game 1 of that series was a wake-up call for these Spurs. Welcome to the playoffs, gentlemen.

Now we've officially started.

Yes.

Right.

And to their great credit, they recalibrated. They're like, oh, okay, well, here's what we have. Here's what we can do. And they could handle that physicality. I think Minnesota did them a great service in preparing them for this series. And they showed up ready to get in that ass. And they did. They were in it all game long. They were physical with SGA. Now, the one thing you said it a couple of minutes ago, will we have that whistle? What's that whistle going to be throughout the balance of this series? And in fact, for— let me just ask you right now, what's that whistle going to be tomorrow night, Wednesday night? I think tomorrow's line is the exact same. It's the exact same line, which suggests that I— what is Fox playing or not playing? It'll be a game-time decision.

I would assume he's playing.

He should play.

And I would assume he'd be better. I really think this series is gonna get small and it's gonna be the 3 guards against the 3 guards on OKC, whoever they are. J Dub and Vassell and then the, and Chet and Wemby. And that's just, that's just what we're gonna do. And it's gonna be, and OKC will probably look at that game 1 and say, we should have won. The Champagny 3, really hard shot, shouldn't have gone in. Jalen Williams and double OT, that terrible shot he took with like 35 seconds left with that kind of rush shot.

It wasn't that stupid.

Okay, see, he had like bad shots that I'm sure they looked at the tape and like, we should have won that game. That was stupid. The difference is Fox is gonna come back and Harper got a taste of it. Harper, Harper now knows the speed. He understands like a 3-hour game like that, that there's levels to it. You gotta save stuff. I just, I look at Harper and I'm like, this, this is the worst he's ever going to be right now, right? Over the next 10 years, this is the worst version of him and he's already awesome. And then Castle's 21. That's the other crazy thing. It's not, you, you almost look like Castle's like a 27-year-old. He's 21 and, you know, bodying through everybody and he's one of the most physical guys in the series. I still think San Antonio is going to win. I thought that before the series. I think that after game 1, I don't know how many games it's gonna be, but I just think—

I hope it's 7. I want 7 of these. This is an incredible matchup.

So the guys to watch in game 2, number 1 is Chet. I think this is the biggest game in his career so far. He's gonna have a long career and there'll be a lot more good ones, but I thought, I thought he just got his ass kicked in game 1 and he's gotta figure out Well, he can't only have 7 attempts.

Just like they—

that I need to feel you in this game. I did not really feel you in that first game. I felt Caruso. And then the other thing, which I mentioned before the series, and maybe it'll shake itself out with Hartenstein not playing as much, but they played 11 guys in the first half. And that, that was a big thing I was worried about with OKC is like, do they know who their best guys are? Do they know what their best lineups are? I still don't think they totally know. I think they have like 8 guys they trust, but I'm not sure he knows which should be where. And the Jalen Williams thing is a big thing to introduce out of nowhere in the third round.

For any— yeah, and he took 25 shots.

Right.

Welcome back, J-Dub.

Right, they were open.

Get your 25 piece. I mean, he took 2 more shots than SGA.

I'm gonna read you a list of the best 21st century games and you tell me Was the game we saw last night, I'll go game by game. You tell me if it was better or worse. All right.

So we, we are, we just did the game ones.

No, I'm going with best games.

We said it's, it was an incredible, go, go ahead. Fine.

Just trust.

I'll just, okay.

Was it better than the Halliburton game last year?

I liked it better.

Does that help? That's the right answer. Was it—

I liked it better.

Was it better than that?

You know why I liked it better? Because the Spurs were 7-point underdogs missing De'Aaron Fox, and they had every excuse in the book to not, you know, to just come into that environment on MVP night, right? And, and just, you know, show a great effort. And then let Oklahoma City do what they do, which is, you know, win by 10 or 12.

I have it over that game. Do you have it over Game 4, 2022 Finals? Curry, basically his legacy game that led to his 4th title. No.

Much more at stake in that game. Much more at stake. The leverage is so different.

So that's a TBD. I'm gonna make that a TBD because if San Antonio wins this series, I think that's the problem.

I'm gonna have a hard time putting that game last night, a Game 1 in a conference finals with a brand new team with the identity of the Spurs over any finals game, any legacy games.

I think that's the right answer.

I think I'm gonna have a hard time with that.

Milwaukee, Brooklyn, Game 7, Durant foot in the line.

Damn.

Pretty great game.

Yeah, that was an awesome game.

I think last night was better 'cause I think the quality was better 'cause that game had Durant was great, but it had James Harden on one leg. There was no Kyrie.

Yep. No, the last night was better.

Philly-Toronto Game 7, Kawhi shot that bounced way up in the air and went in.

Oh, I think I gotta give it to that Philly-Kawhi.

I think that one was better. I think that one was better. Yeah, that one, that game was unbelievable. It was. The J.R. Smith game. LeBron said he won.

He cried after that game. We didn't have any tears last night.

No. Uh, Game 1 Finals. I think that's a really tough one. That was like LeBron's last stand in Cleveland, basically.

That 2018?

Yeah, that Game 1 LeBron by himself against the Warriors for 2 and a half hours. Last night was better. That, that game felt more, I, eh, 2016 Game 7 Finals. That beats this.

Come on, man.

The Klay Thompson.

You just had to mention it. The Klay Thompson game, which was Game 6 against Houston.

No, Game 6, Golden State at Oklahoma City.

Oh, Oklahoma City.

Golden State down 3-1. They win Game 5.

I said Houston. I knew it was Harden. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I knew which, which, what I was talking about.

Uh, it was Durant, Westbrook, not Harden.

We're old.

We're allowed mistakes. Klay Thompson gets on the heater right as the Golden State 73-win season's about to go down the tubes. It's a pretty great game. Damn.

I'm gonna give, uh, give it to, to Klay.

I think that's the right answer. San Antonio Clippers, Game 7, Round 1. I think this was better, even though that was a fucking awesome game that I went to, by the way. 2013 Game 6 Finals, San Antonio-Miami, the Ray Allen game.

There's no, come on.

There's no way that game was not better than last night. Yeah. Okay.

All right. You're just trying to set a context here. I appreciate it.

Last one from the last 15 years. Well, I have 2 more from the last 15 years. The Bulls beating Miami to end the 27-game win streak was my favorite game that nobody talks about anymore. That game was fucking awesome. I love the win streak.

It was a regular season game.

I love the win streak. I wrote like a 7,000-word column about the win streak. That was a great column. The win streak was awesome. That'll never happen again. Nobody's ever winning 27 straight games ever again in the regular season.

I wouldn't say that.

That without load management and shit, it's never happening again.

The Spurs might want to try and do that next season.

And then the last one I had was 2011 Game 5, Dallas-Miami, which I went to. Jason Terry hit the big 3 to end it, but that was like the not one, not two, not three Miami Heat just taking it on the chin in Game 4 and Game 5. And the crowd was delirious. I still think last night was probably slightly better, but Anyway, those are the ones I had from the last 15 years.

So we, we kind of had it slated somewhere in the middle there.

The thing is, if, if San Antonio wins the title and this was the best game of the entire run, I think that gains in significance. Right?

Okay.

Okay.

I'll accept that.

Yeah.

No, no pushback for me on that.

What was the best Tiger holy shit, he's in our lives forever Masters? Was that 2000?

Wow. Well, 'cause yeah, 2000—

2000 was though, we're in trouble for a decade now. We're not at that point with Wembley yet. We're in the '97 Masters area of Wembley.

'Cause it's an arrival moment.

It's an arrival.

Right? Yeah. This was, this was the highest stakes, the, I mean, unless you want to use the Olympics as the highest stakes, the, you know, the gold medal game. France against the US.

What, what, you know, that was July '24. Yeah.

That was pretty important game for, for Wembley. But he's bigger now. He's stronger.

Well, the greatest players ever all have a knack of coming through at a pretty precociously early age. Even Magic won the title when he was age 20, right? Yeah. Bird won a title in his second year. Kareem won in his second year. Russell won in his first year. You know, it took LeBron a few years, but that had more to do with the crappy guys on his, on his Cleveland team. Same thing for Jordan. But for the most part, they, they kind of start telling us who they are pretty early in their career. And I think, I think he told us last night would be my big takeaway. But the Dylan Harper thing, long-term, the fact that they have those two guys together with Castle as a third. I mean, can you believe we live in a world where their setup is better than OKC's already? It's like, that scene would've seemed impossible a year ago. Oh, impossible.

What? I'm not sure it's better. What happens if OKC wins this series? What do you mean it's not better?

Wemby would have to get hurt for it not to be better.

What if Oklahoma City wins this series 4 games to 1 because they go on a—

All right, I'll take Wemby. I'll take Wemby, Harper, and Castle. You take SGA and any other two OKC guys, which three would you rather have?

Well, when OKC has Giannis next year because of all of the picks that they have and all of the, I mean, which, which OKC are we talking about?

That's the other question from this series. What if they, if San Antonio thumps it to them, is there some sort of move now? Do they look at this and go, Oh, I would.

5 games to 1, that's a, that's a, a, a feature, not a bug. Where they, they played 6 times, these 2 teams, regular season, and now 1, 1 playoff, and it's 5 games to 1. Like, I, I, the, the evidence continues to mount, I'll just put it that way. I mean, I know a bunch of different times when they played Not all of the— both, both teams weren't their full complete versions of themselves, so on and so forth. But, uh, San Antonio is hell-bent on sending a message. They are hell-bent on sending a message to Oklahoma City. They have it circled in red on their, their calendar. And we're just gonna see, we're gonna see how this plays out. Do you see yourself turning on Wemby at any point, um, over the course of the year, over the course of the playoffs? I loved the comeuppance. I felt like it was a comeuppance when the Joker and Denver beat them on that incredible Saturday night game. Yeah, it was like, this is a measuring stick game. Yeah. And look how close you are, and yet you're, you're— there's just one other level. Yeah, that level unfortunately included Aaron effing Gordon not being hurt.

God damn it. I'm gonna be bitter about, you know, the existential crisis that Denver is in now because— and I mean, I'm not I'm not, you know, denigrating Gordon. He just couldn't get healthy in the playoffs for 2 consecutive years now. And we're losing out on this Joker moment.

And that Denver team was supposed to be better because none of us like Kareem. We can be honest about that.

I've never, you know, it's not in my DNA. We just hate on him.

No, we respected him, but nobody was like, I'm a huge Kareem fan. I love Kareem. Kareem's my guy.

I think there are Lakers people that would say that they love Kareem because he was on their team. Yes, that's right.

You talked yourself into liking Gilbert Arenas for 4 years.

Gilbert Arenas was fucking awesome. I know, for one season he sure was.

No, I think usually with the tall giant guys, eventually they become the villains, you know. And this has happened to pretty much every tall guy has ever played basketball. I don't know if it happens with him because he's so, he's so different and he's so much fun to watch and he's so competitive. I think if somebody cares as much as he cares on top of the talent, it's really hard to root against that. I know.

I think there's an undercurrent out there. Ask Jacoby. Jacoby.

Oh, I know there's an undercurrent. I, I, I heard it out. Well, there's a, there's a, the xenophobia thing that's happening too.

Oh yeah.

Where people are like, oh, what's happening? We're losing our sport to the internationals.

Nah, I mean, that, that part I, I don't care about. Um, I do like it's the, the tough guy stuff. Let's, you know, this is why I enjoyed what Minnesota did to him in, in game 1.

Yeah. And honestly, what Lou Dort's gonna be doing to him in game 2 through the whole, through the entire series.

I mean, they baited him into, to the, the elbow to the throat. That could have been a suspension. I'm glad it wasn't a suspension, but they got him. They won 2 games by being physical with him, right? Knocking him out of his—

and that's what— okay, Lou Dort's gonna do the Bret Hart— when Bret Hart put the metal vest under his hockey jersey when he was against Bill Goldberg. Bill Goldberg speared him, but Bret Hart had a metal vest on. I think Lou Dort's gonna wear that tomorrow.

He's gonna be— that's what the fouls are for. Yeah, that's what the fouls are for.

I can't wait. I, I think tomorrow— I think this whole series is like, you can't miss a minute. There's no excuse. Tell your wife, tell your girlfriend, tell your spouse, your boyfriend, whoever doesn't want to watch basketball with you, they can fuck off for 3 hours because this is a must-watch every minute. We don't know when we're getting another series like this. It hasn't happened for 8 years.

Don't sleep on how impressive these two coaching staffs are and can be. And the innovation we're going to see. It's the diametric opposite of what we watched with Cleveland.

It's like Kenny Atkinson, but after a cup of coffee.

Like, I just can't— like, I still can't unsee that Detroit-Cleveland. I'm so glad it's over. I'm sorry I lived through it. This is the diametric opposite. These are two staffs that are so goddamn innovative where every game's going to look different.

Jamal Mosley back in action with New Orleans.

Congratulations.

Jason Kidd fired today.

Saw that.

That was one of the more— I wish I forgot to predict that on a podcast because the combo of Masai taking over—

well, yeah, that was— Masai wants his guy, which is understandable.

Jason Kidd, who during like at least the last year Luka was there, was complaining about him to everybody. And there's no way he didn't know about that trade, and there's no way he wasn't trying to Jedi mind trick people into trading him. And he definitely knew about it before it happened. And then the trade happened. He's like, I didn't know anything about it. I didn't know what happened. They were definitely gonna, well, the story is they were gonna Joe Pesci him at some point.

Our out is like he was hoping for a front office kind of thing. Like maybe there was something—

he tried to get the Knicks job last summer.

Seamless.

He pushed in the, you know, he definitely wink wink the Luka trade. And then 4 months later it's like, yeah, I'd love to check out this Knicks thing. Definitely.

That was definitely, um, one of the, the possibilities out there.

Well, maybe the Portland guy will hire him at a discount because he's already getting paid by somebody else.

Well, that, that guy fired 70 people today.

I saw that.

Like, what the fuck is going on? Like, what, what is this league? The, the, the 3 most recent owners— now you can, you can, you know, take, uh, Ishbia and say, okay, classic new owner syndrome, came in, tried to make a splash, tried to throw a team together and build excitement. I want the best players. And, you know, he hired, you know, two consecutive coaches with some pedigree, guys that had accomplished some things in Vogel and then Bud. But, you know, I don't— it should be a—

he spent money. He was just misguided.

And then he listened to good basketball people and the team that they fielded this season was like, okay, this is— this makes sense. That's competitive.

Like Vivek.

The Dallas— it's just like Vivek. The Dallas situation with those people and whatever scheme that they have up their sleeve with the 'we want the casino' and, yeah, uh, you know, 'we sanctioned Nico getting rid of our best'— the antagonism towards the fan base. And then this fucking guy comes into Portland and he's like, 'I'm not paying Splitter.' Uh, uh, he coached this team to, to unprecedented outcome. They made the effing playoffs, and then you know what? Oh, uh, congratulations, playoff team, I'm getting rid of two-thirds of the infrastructure that we, we have here in a city that's a— it's a captive audience, right? Like, the only other pro— they have, um, the women's team, the women's WNBA team selling out. They have a soccer team. They have a soccer team. So I mean, you know, Like, the Trail Blazers are tied to that community. And by the way, that community is subsidizing your fucking stadium, bro. The state and the city approved, you know, $350 million of renovation, and he's going to come in and run the organization like what? What? To what?

He's using his hockey strategy, his NHL strategy. He's trying it out. I don't know what he's doing.

I don't know.

I don't understand why you spend this much money on a team and then you try to cut costs all over the place. It's so weird to me.

What message are you sending to the fans?

That's the thing.

What's the purpose of doing it?

Yeah.

It's not a company. Like, go ahead and run it like a company. You're asking people to pay their money. The revenue is—

Well, this is what the Bulls do. He's looking at what the Bulls do and he's like, these dumbasses are paying for their tickets every year. Maybe I'll do that. I won't pay luxury tax. I'll save money all over the place. I'll be profitable.

It's very cynical. The built-in subsidy that comes from the national TV contract, they're all buoyed by it. The franchise is only going to move in one direction because, you know, as these rights continue to go and we'll see how, what, what packages the NBA innovates itself into in terms of streamers on, on, you know, that whatever the cup and these, these sets of games or whatever. Over the next 10 years. But the, the $80 billion— what is it now, $70 billion that's left, $65 billion that's left on this, this rights deal ensures a trajectory for the value. And he paid what he paid. They got a valuation out of it. He was a good soldier in that respect. Right. What was the valuation? $4.5 billion. Well, that's what he paid.

I don't know if it was the valuation.

Yeah, set the floor. Right, exactly.

But that's the problem. All these people are spending— they're spending that kind of money But if the team isn't profitable, then they have to zag the other way, which raises the question, why did you pay for the first place? Yeah. And, and setting the floor for the expansion teams that we'll see if they get the money or not. We have to go.

Anyway, we have to go.

Um, congrats. On that note, congrats on the most boring, boring PGA tournament we've had in a while. Made up for it by Wemby.

Great winner, Aaron Rye.

Mm-hmm.

Everybody's the, the people's champion.

People's champion.

Nice guy.

Great guy.

There you go.

House, you're the people's champion. Thanks for staying up with me. Uh, we're gonna take a break. We're gonna come back with CR, Chris Ryan, Anthony DeBundo. We're gonna talk some soccer next. So all playoffs long, I've been looking through the lines, the props, the futures, everything, sharing my favorite picks from FanDuel Sportsbook on my Twitter feed. I share a lot of times a straight up bet, parlay. I'll do some add-ons, and I'm looking at this game too, OKC San Antonio. I think there was some really instructive lineup stuff that my guess is OKC is just gonna have to go smaller. And then conversely, San Antonio might have to play more guards as well. So I want to try to figure out the right kind of same gamer that steers towards some of the shorter players, shall we call them. So I will have a final pick on that. Before Game 2 on my Twitter feed, still debating who's going to win. I think every one of these games is going to be close. You look at Game 1, if Caruso doesn't hit, you know, 10 shots, he makes like 6, 7 threes. If he doesn't have basically the shooting game of his life, I think San Antonio would've won that game by 20.

And that was with Castle turning the ball over 11 times, no Darren Fox. So I feel like all these games are close or San Antonio's going to win. So I'm probably leaning San Antonio plus the points. When I bet, I bet with FanDuel, a brand I trust. It's easy to build my NBA bets on FanDuel because I know I'm getting great odds, payouts on my parlays, boosts every day. I'll get my winnings instantly. FanDuel, play your game. All right, CR, Chris Ryan is here. Anthony DeBundo here as well. You can hear him and listen to him and watch him all the time on the Ringer Gambling Show. And this is his time because basketball, NHL playoffs, tennis, although we lost Alcaraz for Wimbledon today, uh, Wimbledon, uh, World Cup's coming, Champions League. And then I just have so many soccer questions that I know nothing, so I'm like, I'm just gonna bring two smart guys on the pod who follow soccer and they're gonna tell me stuff. Let's start here. Tottenham might be out of the Premier League. I had my second kid and I just, I fell off with them and I apologize, but, uh, So they lost today.

Explain the stakes, DeBundo, on Sunday. What, what, walk us through everything we have to look forward to. When is this game gonna be on? What's gonna happen? Can I wager on this? Walk us through it.

So Tottenham are 2 points ahead of West Ham with 1 match to play, and all 20 teams play simultaneously on the final day, 11:00 AM Eastern, so 8:00 AM Pacific Sunday morning. Little, uh, coffee and, uh, and football. Tottenham are at home against Everton, who have nothing to play for, but I'm sure would love to play spoiler. West Ham host Leeds, who also have nothing to play for. Tottenham just need a draw. If they draw, they will be safe. However, if they lose and West Ham wins, then Tottenham, one of the 10 richest teams in the world, one of the 6 richest teams in England, and one of the biggest clubs, uh, and historic clubs, uh, in, in the sport, will be relegated to the second division, which as a Spurs fan myself, is an existential crisis that I've never felt as a sports fan in my life. You, our American teams have bad years. We're like, okay, we'll get 'em next year. This is not something I, I'm, I've ever experienced. So now I'm kind of terrified.

So CR, what's the history of this? What's the worst example of this ever happening?

Honestly, it's, well, one of them is Leeds. So Leeds, like, who flew too close to the sun about, I guess it would have to be back to 20-some years ago. Went down and it took them forever to get back up into the Premier League and really have only like fully stabilized themselves as a Premier League club in the last couple of seasons. The one silver lining to this that I would give to Bundo is that we have recent history with clubs like Aston Villa and Newcastle going down and then coming back up. Tottenham has like too much money to fail ultimately. Like they'll lose some really good players. It's going to be tough that they have essentially the crown jewel stadium. Or one of them in the entire country. And they're gonna be hosting like really small clubs if they go down. But I don't think it's done deal yet. When I watched West Ham, the last West Ham match, like I was like, that club looks like fully on its knees. But Tottenham really needed this one today and I think it's probably all the more painful that Chelsea beat them today.

So this is as much drama as we could possibly get on a Sunday other than if the actual title was at stake.

Yeah, it would've been cool if City had won today just for last day final stakes. But yeah, Arsenal is now officially the Premier League champions as of today, which is an even bigger buzzkill for us as Spurs fans.

Your biggest rival could win the league and you could get relegated in the same year. It's like the worst year imaginable for us.

So Debunda, what is the NFL, NBA equivalent of this? Everything that's happening right now, would it be like If the Sixers were in danger of getting relegated, like, how big of a team are they?

I don't even think there is a comp. Like, I was thinking like the, the New York Giants, maybe. It's not the Cowboys, but like the Giants or the Chicago Bears just being out of the NFL for a year.

It would be honestly a good, a good one would be the Red Sox have to go to AAA baseball for the season while the Yankees are coronated as World Series champions.

Oh my God. I can't even imagine.

For Arsenal and Tottenham fans, that's what the rivalry is, except it would be like if it, if they were in the same city and they just hated each other, if they were the same part of the same city.

So from a bragging rights standpoint, can you come back from this?

Uh, no, there, I, yeah, I mean, it would take multiple generations, multiple, like, I mean, look, Arsenal had a holiday that they used to call every year St. Tottenham's Day. They would celebrate it every year when they finished above Spurs, and for 20 straight years they did. And honestly, as a Spurs fan, the year we finally broke that, it shouldn't have mattered, but it really did. We finally were able to have a run of dominance, and for, you know, 5 or 6 years Spurs were the best team in North London. That has dramatically flipped now the last 3 or 4 years where Arsenal's taken back control. But the odds of, you know, Tottenham haven't been relegated in this era of the Premier League. It hasn't happened to the club since the '70s, and then since the Premier League was founded in '92. They've never been relegated. So this would be, yeah, about as bad as it gets.

And also, this is a huge deal.

Like, like CR said, you don't know what the team looks like next year. Like, they're not going to be able to recruit players. They're going to lose all their good players. If you're a good Tottenham player, why would you want to stay when you can go play for another better team? Uh, they— it creates a bit of a, you know, snowball effect down the hill here that could happen for the club.

I'm so fascinated in this, and I wish I had gotten more fascinated sooner because I would have really enjoyed the I, I first remember mid-season, like, hey, they might get relegated. It's like, there's no way. They have way too much money. But to be in that crazy stadium they have playing, playing second league games, I don't even, I can't even, it breaks my brain. Much like Wembley's 32.3-foot-3 broke my brain last night.

Very similar. You know, and it's not dissimilar from that where it's like a great reminder of why sports is just amazing to watch, where it's like for a couple of years, it felt like maybe the gap was getting too wide between Championship and Premier League football. The money was getting too distorted and you'd frequently have teams that came up and went right back down. And in some ways, some teams actually like modeled their success by like getting up for a season to get Premier League money, getting the parachute payments, going back down, that it was its own kind of moneyball in a sense. Like there are clubs like Ipswich or West Brom who might even have said to like, oh, this is how like our model for our success. Tottenham, it's not supposed to happen at Tottenham. You know, like this is Tottenham was a couple years ago, like knocking on the door of, of the top 3, 4 in the country. And they built this enormous stadium and mortgaged a lot of their future on this stadium. And now they have to, you know, they're going to have to figure out a way to pay for it with like Millwall coming to town.

Unbelievable.

They've also financially built a team like around the club. Everything off the field about Tottenham is great. The books look great. Everybody's happy with the business, the stadium, all that stuff. And it's come at the expense of— they had the same guy running the team, Daniel Levy, who's been running the club for 25 years. He just departed. The club became so big to the point where, where he wasn't doing a good enough job overseeing the actual soccer team, you know, the buying and the selling of the players. And they just let the, the transfer strategy completely rot and they embraced a bad kind of analytics that got them into a a lot of bets on a lot of players that didn't have upside that maybe they thought they did, and now they're left with a pretty rotting core of untalented young players.

So, so is there a villain? Like, who are the, who are the Spurs fans?

You know, they would probably point to, I think some Spurs fans would probably point to Thomas Frank, who managed the club at the beginning of this season and was a really heralded hiring. He had come over from Brentford. He like played smart football, which was tactically astute. And he had Brentford, who's a really pretty small London club, punching way above their weight. And I think people thought it was a pretty logical hire and it just went so disastrously and so poorly. And then, Sebundo, who was the manager in between Frank and De Zerbi?

Yeah, Igor Tudor. That's right. Very short-lived run.

This guy who's supposed to be basically an emergency room surgeon and his expertise is to like keep them up. And he shows up and like, I think he was gone, what, in like 19 days? What, how long was he there?

Right.

It was, it was less than Liz Truss. I think it was like 40, 40-something days. Yeah.

This is one of the first Liz Truss mentions on Bill's pod.

This is great.

And now they've got this guy Roberto De Zerbi who came over from, he was coaching in France at Marseille and he plays like really electrifying football, but it just might be too late. And you know, these guys are coming in, it's like hiring a coach in any other league midseason. It's like you're not practicing all the time. You've got games every like 3 days pretty much. And now it's, it's really just a like all hands on deck. Sunday is going to be nuts for that.

So is, what are the stakes for the players on the team? Right? Because if this happened to like, I don't know, the Chicago Bulls, Josh Giddey would care that he was down in the G League for a year and he would have no way of getting out of his contract. Can all of these guys, like, get out of their deals? Like, what happens?

That's the thing. It's a little bit of a black box. You don't really know. Now, a lot of the lower-ranked teams, when they sign contracts with those teams, the players will get some kind of relegation clause. But, you know, when you're negotiating with Tottenham, are they still making sure to, you know, cross the T's and dot the I's to make sure that there's clause in there? So we don't entirely know yet. It's not entirely public. Just how many players can leave. However, like, they do have still multiple world-class players. Cristian Romero, who's going to start for Argentina this summer, Micky van de Ven, uh, there James Maddison, who's been, uh, you know, Premier League champion in the past. Like, there's plenty of players in this team that could go and play in other Premier League teams or other countries and be very, very successful there. So those guys are gonna want out, and you can't just hold them hostage. So it's going to be very fascinating to see what happens this summer.

They're also going to want to sell high on whatever. I mean, if you call selling it, if you call it selling high because they've been relegated, so their value on a player for player basis is probably lower than it's ever been, but they'll probably try and sell high to like mitigate some of the financial losses they're going to experience from having no fans for a year. Well, I think the money, the TV money, there's some, there's something to be said for, I've seen, there is history of teams going down and like, it's almost like, um, a cleanse, you know what I mean? Like, oh, we have to get all the bad blood out. Maybe we get some of these contracts out. Like, we're gonna immediately be these runaway favorites to go wire to wire to win the championship next year. I mean, Tottenham in the Championship is insane. So I would assume that they will probably have a pretty glorious run in the Championship where they, they kick ass all season and the fans, the ones who show up, I don't know if they'll be like a full capacity. Tottenham Stadium, but it, it'll be like fun, you know what I mean?

It's just gonna be weird because you're in the gym.

It'd be nice to win again, you know?

Yeah.

So this is Red Sox and then AAA.

Yes, basically. But you did ask, Bill, like, who, who's at fault here? Uh, Daniel Levy is the first name. Johan Long, who's the new sporting director, he's the second name. But this is not a one-year issue, and I think that's the one other problem. They finished 17th last year, right? They had the most bizarre season where Ange Postecoglou was their manager. They finished 17th and they were never actually in danger of getting relegated. 18th is relegation because the gap was pretty big, but they barely won any games the second half of the season. They put all their eggs into the Europa League, which is a secondary competition. They won that. They won their first trophy in 18 years, 17 years last year. And then they had to make a decision on the manager. He just won you your first trophy in 17 years. But you were awful most of the season. They fired him and a lot of people had mixed opinions on that decision. He's probably looking down smiling at the moment at the fact that he might be relegated. Ange Postecoglou.

So for the people that don't know this that are listening, I wrote a whole giant column about trying to pick a Premier League team, I think in '07. It was before my second kid was born. And I really tried to get into it for a couple of years. And I watched a lot of soccer and my daughter started playing and I I actually did follow it. Um, and then I just couldn't keep up. There was too much sports, there was too much parent stuff. It is funny, CR, that I picked what seems to be the perfect team for me. I think I really would've enjoyed this Tottenham ride the last 20 years. I would be losing my mind right now if they're about to get relegated.

Yeah.

You should also have maybe have chosen Liverpool in the first place so you could see where all of John Henry's money was going.

Yeah, that true. So that was the, that was the runner-up, but I think they had had a little too much success when I was trying to figure it out. I wanted. I wanted a team that, you know, was gonna— they were gonna rise up and exorcize demons, all this stuff. And it just—

yeah, there's nothing like, uh, Raphy Devers getting traded and me being able to text you and be like, thanks again. Yeah, it didn't really work out though.

Liverpool just spent the most money they've ever spent on one player the same week that Rafael Devers was traded.

Unbelievable. We— that's why we all want them to sell. So West Ham, what, what is the NFL/NBA equivalent to them, like mid-level?

That's a good question. I think of them more like a Chicago Bulls. Like, they are historically really well-supported club. They have— I don't even know if they've ever— they never really had a Jordan era, although they have been great in the past historically. But they have moved into the London Olympic Stadium out of Upton Park, which is where they used to be. They moved into, you know, this giant cavern of a stadium and have been pretty bad for the last couple of seasons. I think they did, they, they made some noise in the Conference League, Debundo. I can't even remember.

They did. They won the Conference League.

They won the Conference League, the third tier European competition below the NIT level tournament in Europe. But if they go down, it's actually, actually equally catastrophic. I mean, their owners are embattled. They've got a lease on this stadium that their fans don't like going to. And they don't have nearly the talent pipeline, I don't think, that Tottenham has.

You know, no, they don't have the resources either. I mean, they're, they're a mid-table financial club with more history than that. But you mentioned the stadium thing. I went to London Stadium last year. It is not a very exciting place to watch a game. They don't get great crowds. The noise is kind of just—

it's got a running track, reverberates the stands from the field.

So it's just like, oh my God, I went to that stadium for the 2012 Olympics. I can't believe that that's where they play.

Yeah.

And Upton Park was like famously very loud and like a tough place to play and they just haven't had that. And they're, they've done a similarly bad job with, with squad recruitment. Like they've, they've recruited a lot of players that don't really fit together and then tried 4 different managers and none of them have worked. But since David Moyes left, it's been a steady decline.

So this was the biggest Premier League story this year, or was there something else?

Uh, I mean Arsenal winning the title for the first time in 18, 22. 22 years.

Yeah, that's a big story.

I think the reason why maybe people who are outside of the internal, like, the Arsenal fandom— like, I was funny, I was just recording Wait a Second with Concepción, and he was saying that he was going to London soon, and I was like, oh, for the parade? And he's like, what do you mean? I was like, Arsenal just clinched the title. And he had like kind of a stroke when I told him that. Um, but you know, for Arsenal fans, I think it's been incredibly rewarding, and I used to have a lot of affection for Arsenal as like a neutral kind of like, I liked watching them play. But this season has been pretty, it's kind of like the, what happened to the Thunder where it was like they were everybody's darlings a couple years ago.

Are they flopping?

No, it's, but they've scored a quarter of their goals have come off of corner kicks.

I have a comp, CR. I have a comp. And a lot of people in my community got mad at me for this. They are the Eagles.

Oh.

They are the Eagles.

Wow.

Like the, the 2025. They're Turkish pushing? Yeah, they, they, they literally are essentially boring to watch. They win with their elite defense and their goals this year. Like the, the main difference between them and their main title contenders was that they mastered the art of the set piece and they built what's called a meatball where they just like block the goalie out and then they send the ball in and they're bigger and taller than everybody else. So they just score all these headed goals off set pieces and look, credit to them. Don't hate the player, hate the game, but they're not a fun team to watch.

So it's like when you watch Caruso and Dort like foul 4 times in a possession, it's like, well, you can only really call one foul, right? So like, yeah, we'll just do it everywhere.

Well, CR, you know I'm a big set piece guy. I know, for real. I really feel like it's underrated part of soccer.

Bizarre. The set piece.

Listen, my daughter, who's coming up later on this pod, we've— it's been 17 years of watching her on soccer teams, and as you get older There are always these teams, it's like the secret sauce, and they figure it out and they get like one free kick goal, one corner kick goal, and they win 2-0. And you're like, what just happened? We dominated possession the whole time.

Yeah.

Anyway, I like the set pieces.

That's Arsenal. And that's honestly, it's creating a larger question about the World Cup this summer too. How is that going to be officiated? Because the ball was in play less this year in the Premier League than it's ever been. Set piece goals were up. It's not even just corners and free kicks now. Teams have guys— Brentford has a guy whose main job is that he can throw the ball over his head 40 yards and like they just make sure to bring him in so that he can, you know, whatever side of the field they're on, he comes in and throws the ball 40 yards into the penalty area and then they just scrum around. It's not the most exciting. When you think of the beautiful game, you're not thinking of that.

Yeah, I think for a lot of people watch the Premier League this year and we're like, eh, like there's something kind of missing here. And then we had a Champions League semifinal between Bayern Munich and PSG that happened a couple weeks ago.

Electric.

It was like shooting like drugs right into your carotid artery. It was like you, like, I was like, oh, this, I've missed this. This is what this sport's supposed to be. This is so electric. And then you go back and watch guys who are just basically like fouling each other on set pieces on their way to a title.

It's kind of a bummer. So Champions Champions League, the final. Debundo, did you make a pick yet?

Yeah, it's funny. I, I think it's a toss-up and the betting odds have PSG as a favorite. This is the classic clash of styles. PSG have way better attackers, but when they played last year, Arsenal was right there. I think Arsenal's very live to win it. They're not, again, it's not the sexy pick. Even Victor Wembanyama weighed in. He was making fun of Arsenal's play style, said, of course PSG, of course he's French. But he was saying, you know, nobody wants Arsenal to win except for Arsenal fans. It does feel that way. As like the numbers nerd though, I do think they're pretty even teams.

See our Premier League title and Champions League in the span of a month. That's impressive.

Yeah, it would be, it'd be really like a really significant achievement for them and for Arteta, the Mikel Arteta, the manager for Arsenal. It's been the other big headline coming out of the Premier League season. If since you asked like that a couple of minutes ago, is this we found out is going to be the last season that Pep Guardiola manages Man City. Hmm. So he's been there for, what is it, 13, 10 years, something like that. Like, he's won an obscene amount of titles, like in terms of Premier League titles, FA Cups, Carabao Cups, over that time period. And it kind of marks the end of an era, at the, in the Premier League.

Do we like Arsenal fans?

I, I love many Arsenal fans.

Jeff Chow's an Arsenal fan, right?

Ian Wright is an Arsenal legend.

What type of personality? Yeah. What kind of personality, type is an Arsenal fan?

Are they the most popular fan base in America?

I think there's a huge crossover between Arsenal and Knicks fans.

Oh, that's enlightening. That makes sense.

I feel, I feel that too.

Um, who is our least favorite fan base right now?

I mean, well, my answer is still going to be Arsenal. That's because I've— my phone has been just off the hook, and what am I supposed to say? I mean, I picked them before the season. I told you guys it was gonna happen. You can't, you can't throw it in my face. They still will. Of course, as they should.

But what about you, CR? What's your least favorite fan base?

I think as a Liverpool fan, Manchester United fans are my least favorite fan base.

I remember when I was doing that exercise, I really was intrigued by Newcastle, but part of, part of the exercise was I need to go— if I, if I go overseas for a game, what would be a fun trip? And Newcastle a lot, but I really liked how, how kind of tortured.

And there's a fair amount of speculation. Newcastle in the intermediate intervening years, They were heavily invested in by the Saudi PIF, and now people are speculating that something similar could happen to them that happened to LIV.

Oh, yeah.

Well, it won't be as catastrophic probably, but they are looking for outside investment. It looks like they are trying to unwind their, their sports position there.

Um, World Cup starting, what are we down to, a month? Last week. Last week.

3 weeks from Thursday.

Yeah. Um, Debundo, this is the greatest summer of your life.

I'm very excited, but greatest sports year of my life. I was talking about this with Sheil a couple weeks ago. Uh, we just had the PGA at Aronimic. I was down there on Sunday. We've got All-Star Game in Philly this year. It's a great year for Philly. But then yeah, the World Cup, the Winter Olympics were great. Uh, I'm not sure we'll have a better sports year. However, that could change on Sunday. If Tottenham gets relegated, I will not feel like this is the best sports year of my life.

Debundo, have you checked any, uh, uh, of the resellers to see like what those World Cup tickets are going for in Philly?

Are they dropping?

They are now.

Okay.

I mean, we didn't get the best slate. Have you looked at the Philly slate, CR?

Yeah, it's not, it's not that great.

It's not the sexiest slate. Ivory Coast, Ecuador. That's going to be like the dark horse battle. But other than that, we got a pretty mediocre slate.

Debunda, you know about CR, right? World Cup Bigamist. Leading two separate lives. Like those Lifetime movies where the person has the separate family in another house.

Wait, what would be my Netflix title for you?

World Cup Bigamist. That would be it with a picture of you with like a jersey that has two different logos on it.

That's right.

So who did you root for on Black Friday in 2022?

I don't— I can't recall.

Did you give a nice little golf clap when it ended in a draw?

Honestly, he's not gonna say, but he's, he's like probably 60-40 England.

Honestly, you know what, it's not that hard. I don't really like the USMNT, honestly.

That's the thing, that's what he's talked himself into is I don't like how we're run. I don't like our style and culture. I don't like our youth program system.

It's—

I'm rebelling against it.

It was— I was introduced to the game through his perspective, through his lens. I always enjoyed, like, the drama around the England national team.

I support it. You don't have to apologize to us, but it— but when you're a sports bigamist, there's always a chance the two teams are going to play and you're going to have some real reconciling to do. I don't think that would be this year because I think that's going to be a problem.

I don't—

it doesn't seem like, uh, I saw Rob Stone this weekend, actually, who's obviously heavily involved in the World Cup, and I, I was like pushing him to get me excited about the American team, and he tried. I felt like he was going through the motions, and it just feels like, uh, even though everybody seems to agree it's one of the more talented teams we've ever had, and we have all these good American soccer players, nobody seems to think they're going to do that well in the World Cup. So you agree with that, Debundo?

Well, I will say they got some bad news because their best center-back went off injured, uh, for Crystal Palace over the week. So if he's out, they have no good center-backs. They're already at a problem where they only have one.

You need this.

The second one is going to be a 38-year-old Tim Ream who's looking a little old for MLS. Um, and so the defense looks problematic. The goalie situation is the worst it's been in my lifetime, and the defensive situation looks bad. However, The good news is their star attacker, Christian Pulisic, he has not scored yet in Serie A in 2026, so he's doing great too. A lot of excitement for Team USA at the World Cup.

Brutal. Who, who, Sierra, who do you think is going to win? Do you have a—

you know what, this is one of the hardest ones for me to pick in a long time just because of, uh, the unique nature of like playing outdoors in America in the summer is gonna, I think, sweat down some of the veteran teams, you know. So I think I am leaning France, but I don't, I don't really know. I mean, France is just so talented from like one to like, they could, a second team France could probably make it to the last four, you know?

Yeah. So Debundo, that's what I was looking at too, because I think Wemby's gonna win the NBA title and I'm a big believer in the cluster theory. Mm-hmm. And him winning the title on American soil, followed by France, followed by All of us wondering how we let this happen with France and we thought we got rid of them a bunch of times over the years. I made fun of France on a pod. I got a long email from somebody who's like, hey, we've been there for you for like 7 wars. What the fuck?

Yeah. Lafayette.

I got really, really bad.

Did that all that for nothing.

So sorry. But, but yeah, I wonder, I do wonder if there's a cluster theory. Who do you like for the World Cup?

I mean, if you just lined up the team, France is the most talented. Like, I don't even think it's debatable. And by the way, if you're doing narratives too, Kylian Mbappé, Talk about a guy who kind of needs a big World Cup. Yeah, because PSG might win a second consecutive Champions League since he departed.

Look, and there's this theory and Real Madrid is exploding like on his watch right now.

Yeah, there are 40 million signatures from Madridistas to get him out at Real Madrid. They're not very happy with, with Kylian, even though he scores a lot of goals. But yeah, I mean, France is the most talented team. Spain, you know, Lamine Yamal is their best player. He's not going to be healthy for the start of the tournament. He's got a leg injury that he probably won't be 100%. And you never know with those. I actually like CR's England a lot. I like that they have a real manager who has tactical know-how this time, unlike Gareth Southgate. But again, like, do I trust the English in the American summer to not wilt?

That's also just going to be like, it's going to be quarterfinals, semifinals, and it's a penalty shootout. And then it's just, it's hard to like project out when you know that's looming. I think that there's a couple of interesting storylines going into the Cup. One of them is, Debundo just alluded to that there's a couple really good managers working in this one. Obviously, uh, Pochettino is managing the USMNT. He comes from, among other places, Tottenham. Uh, Carlo Ancelotti is managing the Brazilian national team, and it's his— I think this is his first time as an international manager, but he just wins shit a lot. And I would keep an eye on Brazil even though they've got kind of a chaotic roster. And Thomas Tuchel, who's managing England, is pretty tactically astute. So there's a lot of interesting stuff happening in that department.

Probably the most talented group of managers we've ever had at a World Cup. Like, you don't often see a lot of the elite club guys go do international, and a lot of them are just like, yeah, I'll go take my shot at the World Cup. Why not?

Any weirdness for England considering it'll be 250 years since we sent them the fuck out of here? CR sent them packing. I think it'll be weird to come back on an anniversary or no. Be the back of their heads. I don't think that comes up. It's not gonna come up in the pregame.

Yeah. Can you give us— but if they play on July 4th, like they're definitely losing, right?

Yeah. They'll be in the back of their head, you know, when we push them out to bundo. Can you give us a dark horse please? US is 55 to 1 to win the World Cup. I would advise people not to wager on that.

No, please do not bet that. Underdogs never win, actually win the World Cup. There's only 8 countries that have ever won it. 7 of them are in this tournament. Italy, who I guess would be my second country. They didn't quite make it once again, but Ecuador is going to be my team. I love this team. They were this— they were actually better than Brazil in World Cup qualifying. They have 3 or 4 guys who are mainstays on Champions League teams.

81.

Yeah, I don't think they can win it, but like, you know, they're in a group with Germany. I think they match up pretty well with them. Ivory Coast, like, that's going to be a really fun underrated group. And I think nobody's going to want to play them because they only gave up, I think it was 5 goals. In 18, uh, South American World Cup qualifying matches. So elite defensively, not a ton of goals there, so probably low ceiling, but I think they can make a run. They're not that different from what Morocco did a few years ago in terms of like having a handful of really good players and a good system and a good defense.

It would have been funny if Dabundo's like, you know, I'm looking at Sweden, really well-run country, really have liked everything, everything I've Heard about those guys. I don't like the Swedes as a dark horse.

Yeah.

What do you got for dark horse?

I love the Swedes as a people, but not as a soccer team this year.

You know, Netherlands at, what are they, +2,000?

Yeah.

I, I mean, that, that's interesting to me. They have a lot of really nice players. I, they tend to burn quick and then, and then flame out like at crucial moments in tournaments, but they have like a really solid squad. So I think that's a nice one. Look at. I'm a little bit Eurocentric when it comes to the World Cup kind of favoritism though. It's hard for me, you know, to see Argentina, for instance, at +900, like getting back into it here. So I, I, as it stands now, I'm looking at the Netherlands.

So 8 countries ever and 1 is not in.

Yep. That's Italy. 3 straight World Cups our Italians missed.

I want to do a 30 for 30 about that Netherlands team in the '70s and we never got it together.

Oh, the Johan Cruyff Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They were kind of like the 2000 Steve Nash Suns of the 1970s, basically.

We were talking about that back at Greerland.

I remember that. Yeah, we always circled that idea. We never, we never got there. All right, well, Debundo, good luck on Sunday. Uh, it sounds like you're gonna— it sounds like you're okay. You just need, need a draw against a team that doesn't care if they win or lose, it sounds like.

That's right.

And then West Ham could lose anyway, and they could be fine.

Yeah. Odds are probably like 6 to 1 that we go down, 5 to 1, but it's high enough that I'm uncomfortable.

All right.

CR, I'm glad we're still getting along after Sixers Celtics.

I think it's water under the bridge, brother.

It just turned out badly for both of us.

You know what? That's one of the things that was actually comforting about watching the Spurs last night. And I was like, oh, you know what? This is a different sport. Like, like we had no fucking shot.

Like, honestly, We're gonna play Keita against Wembenyama.

Yeah. I mean, not that we would even go to the finals anyway, but I was— this happens right around now, last couple of NBA seasons. I'm like, oh, that's how far we are.

Forget it.

I'm not even mad.

Yeah. There's this speed thing and you can really feel it with the perimeter guys too. There was this speed thing going on. It's almost like watching two lightweight boxers or welterweight boxers and they're just flying and you're like, oh man.

I was watching Caruso getting stronger as the game went on and I was like, nevermind.

Yeah.

Yeah. CR was wondering what was going on with him.

Yeah.

Maybe he got some Paul George tips.

I was like, this is nuts.

Yeah.

Are they just gonna leave him open all series? Is that the plan? Just hope he misses.

Well, that, that's the, the Spurs on the flip side that I think they're gonna let Fox and Harper just take threes now. I think you have to double Wemby, right? You can't, you got, you basically have to live and die with guys on the Spurs hitting perimeter threes would be my guess. But are you up or down for the playoffs, the Bundo?

I'm up thanks to Jalen Duren. What a guy that he's been great. You know, you hate to do a hate watch sometimes, but what did you short him? I bet under 0.3 rebounds and assists in every game.

Wow.

Series.

Terry Rozier.

We went 6-1.

He Terry Roziered it. Yeah. I've been listening to some of this.

In the Pistons-Cavs series.

Oh my God.

Then I actually had Caruso over last night, which might've been the easiest win in my life.

Oh my God.

It was a lot of fun.

Yeah. I had, I went big on Spurs-Knicks after round 1 and have, I went on the Spurs this year. I have a lot of Spurs stuff. I just said some point, just at some point was like, what are we doing here? These odds are outta whack. But now the odds are, now it's like they're dead even. It's -108 for Spurs or OKC. It couldn't be more even.

You know, we, we're on the verge of NBA history, Bill.

Which one?

Never before has the NBA Cup Final been repeated.

I know you love this.

The long storied history of NBA.

You made Sal love this. Sal is now excited about this. You somehow corrupted Sal. He's like the NBA Cup.

We've never had a rematch. We could get a rematch if we get Spurs-Knicks and the Cupheads are very excited about it. We're very excited.

It does feel like the biggest possible finals we could have. Like Wendy against the New York Knicks.

Wendy in the Garden.

Yeah.

The best we can do, I think. Right. And probably the toughest, I would say if it does happen, those tickets at MSG will be the single hardest Finals tickets probably ever.

Did you see there's already a StubHub courtside price for Game 1 of the Finals for the Knicks?

Is it like $30,000?

There was one listed for $100,000, which I think might have been overlisted, but somebody tweeted for $100,000, I gotta be checking into the game.

Well, the other thing, yeah. That's probably fair. The other thing is Dolan controls all this stuff and isn't going to work with the league, and he's just going to be like, I've made promises to Bobby Bacala and Matthew Modine and all these other people that have been going forever. Like, why are we always—

we always got to drag Modine through the mud here.

He's been a great— he's been a great Knicks Liberty supporter.

Um, we still— I'm still trying to get to the bottom of, uh, that Sixers Game 3, whether it was really M. Night Shyamalan who gave his tickets to Timothée Chalamet. Allow him to sit courtside in Philly.

Oh, is that a rumor?

It's a cockamamie.

Would that be a, we'd have to ban him, right?

Yeah. I mean, to the extent that like he is the most notable courtside guy in, in, I mean, that's disgusting.

If that's what he did, that would really be horrible. CR, I'll see you on Friday. 'Cause we're doing Animal House is the last comedy. This could be the last rewatchables ever. The Bundo, I'll be watching on Ringer Gambling. Say hi to the crew for me. Thanks guys.

Thanks for having me.

All right, it's a family reunion. My daughter is home, uh, briefly from school. She has to leave for an internship. Murph joining us for the first time ever.

First on-time cameo.

I think it might be his first podcast.

We wanted to put a mic in front of his face, but we thought the mic would freak him out.

But he's here. He looks like he's gonna nap during this. He's just happy to be here.

He's happy to be here.

Uh, all right, so we used to call this, for realsies, we called it Teen Patrol. Um, now you're 21. You turned 21 2 weeks ago. You're a young adult.

I am. How does that make you feel? Are you feeling old?

Terrible.

Yeah, I'm sorry.

I feel awful. It was fun having drinks with you on your 21st birthday though.

Yeah.

And watching you flash your ID to everybody.

I'd like to stay at this age forever. Now that I'm here, I don't wanna get any older. It's an exciting time for me, but probably a daunting time for you and mom.

Do you wanna say final thanks to all the fake ID people you were over the years? Like, say goodbye to Quinn.

I'll say I was Quinn. Thank you, Quinn, for your service. I was Zoe Simmons, but I lived in, um, Bakersfield. Yeah, so I lived in, um, Long Beach. I appreciate all my old homes. Thank you everyone for your service.

I told you I was Bart Osmond for like 2 and a half years.

I just can't believe that anyone would believe your name was Bart.

And I was 5'10" and I would always crouch when I was buying. So anyway, I'm glad you're 21. Welcome to adulthood. We're gonna talk about Euphoria first, the most important show of your generation, of the 2020s. Went away for a while. The stars on the show became super famous, um, almost too famous to be in a TV show. Now the show's back and polarizing. Are people mad? What's the deal?

Yeah, people aren't, aren't happy about what's going on with this season. I have a few issues with it. Well, first of which, it's the Cassie show, which no one signed up for. At the beginning of Euphoria, it was all surrounded by Rue. Rue was the center, and then all of the exterior relationships were kind of side plots. But this season, it feels like Sydney Sweeney and her boobs are the two main characters. And everyone else is just kind of doing their own thing.

So, there's been a lot of dialog in our house about this, about why they chose to do this. And either she's making fun of the persona that people seem to think she is the last four years, or Sam Levinson, the creator, and— director. He's making fun of her and she doesn't realize it. So where do you stand?

Um, I would like to believe that the first reason would be the correct one, but at the same time, Sydney Sweeney and every single brand deal, every single internet thing that she's done has made me believe that she genuinely is that type of person. Like, the American Eagle ad was a conversation within all of my classes in college for months on end, far too long. People were triggered.

There was some triggering.

There— people were triggered. But like, I mean, it's— I just don't— I, I think she— that is who she is. And honestly, props to her for standing so true to her identity, I guess. But I, I think Sam Levinson is making fun of her. The monstrous boob version of Sydney Sweeney destroying all of LA was kind of like, oh, maybe he's not on her side here.

The Godzilla boobs.

Godzilla boobs.

She said it was like one of the highlights of her career to do that.

I'm sure it was because her career is within this area of her body. So of course she's gonna be ecstatic that her boobs were bigger than, like, the stadium or the Staples Center.

Yeah, like, so you didn't like the boxing movie is what you're telling me? I just thought it was pretty good.

I'm sure it was. I, I don't know. I have a problem with her where I can't get into her characters because she's just the same person in every show. Yeah. And Euphoria to me feels the most authentic to her, and this season has reigned true to that. Um, but she's the first biggest problem.

Okay.

My second biggest problem is that Nate Jacobs has become— am I allowed to say the word here?

Sure, you say what you want.

Nate Jacobs has become a major pussy, and he's— but he's— we have to remember that he beat up Maddie Perez in season 1. He single-handedly put his father in jail and uprooted his whole life, and he was the biggest bully at the school that they went to. And now he's getting bossed around by Sydney Sweeney and her big boobs, and these gangsters that are extorting him for money, right? It's like Nate Wouldn't you think that you should start carrying, like, a gun or maybe, like, a pocket knife or something to defend yourself? You're just gonna keep getting limbs cut off without doing anything?

Plus, you're 6'5" and you're a former quarterback. You can't fight back against anybody?

That's what I'm saying. I really— I dislike the fact that he has been completely emasculated in this season. He's losing toes and fingers. I liked when Jacob Elordi was, like, this force in Euphoria, and he's no longer that. So that's— a major problem.

Okay.

I'm also just not understanding where the season's gonna go because we're 6 episodes in now and Rue has almost been murdered multiple times by the new person that she works for. Maddy's somehow getting involved in this entire stripper deal and—

Right.

It's just Sydney Sweeney boobs. So it's like, where is the— where is everything gonna come together? I'm not sure.

And it's Rue making this face for pretty much 90% of the episodes.

Yeah, she always looks like that. That's a good job, Dad. You look pretty— I don't like you looking at me like that.

Scary.

I don't like that. Yeah, but you have to say something too. She's like, come on, man, come on.

I don't know, I feel like she's great actress, obviously. I feel like she's a little bit on autopilot this season.

I mean, she has a lot of shit going on.

Probably the biggest female movie star we have. And she's like, oh fuck, I gotta be on season 3 of this show. So I, I feel like if this was basketball, this would be like Jason Tatum in February playing the Nets and just kind of running up and down and shooting threes.

I'm with you. It seems like Sydney Sweeney is the only one that's really like into it and she might need this. This was her starting place and maybe, I mean, she's huge, so I don't know if that's accurate, but.

So how much, how much content have you consumed about Sydney and Zendaya and not, not being in the same place and never filming the same? Because you, you pointed out in the wedding scene, you never actually saw them on screen together.

They're never on screen together. And Zendaya just doesn't like her. I mean, that's at least what I've, I've read. Yeah, I don't— I just don't want to say things that might not be true. I don't think she likes her.

Yeah.

Um, and more than that, I do respect the fact that she values herself as an actress to such a level where she's not gonna like put herself in that position to be in scenes with someone she dislikes. At the same time, it just— it fucks with the show. And there are multiple relationships on the show where people don't want to be on screen with one another, which is problematic because they got rid of the girls from Faces of Death. What's her name? Oh, um, Barbie Ferreira.

We kind of like that movie.

We were all right with it.

I thought it was good. She was definitely dialing it up.

I like her a lot, but she also had her own problems with Sam Levinson. It just seems like the— it's been too much time, too much baggage, too much shit has happened. Honestly, I was surprised that this season is as compelling as it is because I thought it was going to be a total train wreck. Yeah, so I'm, I'm happy to watch it. You know I'm not a tough audience, like I can watch anything and be like, that was enjoyable. I'm having a good time. I just want to know like some consistency of the plot line or where this is going.

No Tell Me Lies for you?

What do you mean?

It's I mean, like, not even close to Tell Me Lies, how excited you were after that season.

No, because that— I mean, because we had a villain the whole time. This show, it's like our villain is so inconsistent, and I wanted Nate Jacobs to be the villain because he's my favorite villain.

Yeah.

And now he's just like this fucking loser that's like hiding out in his house waiting for more toes and fingers to be cut off.

So how many does he have? 10 fingers? He's down to like 17 left that can get cut off.

Yeah. It's like, maybe Nate Jacobs, pick up a pocket knife. That's all that I have to say. And you were happy with the Tell Me Lies season finale, right?

Absolutely.

Absolutely. I mean, it was, it was great. Some people had some things to say. I honestly like that Stephen won because I thought Lucy was a bigger loser than he is.

So interesting.

At least he had some ambition and he was committed to the fact that he's an awful person. Lucy spent the whole season trying to convince everyone that she wasn't. Meanwhile, she is.

So, and then you love JFK: A Love Story.

Oh my God, the best.

Even though it kind of ended weakly.

I hate to say this. I probably should have known more about what happened with them, but I really didn't know much.

Yeah.

So watching the show for me was like, it was a lot to take in cuz I, I really didn't know much about what happened to him or her, but she's incredible.

Did you know, you knew they died, right?

I only knew that JFK died. I didn't know that Carolyn Bassett also died. So that was, I mean, I loved that show. I wish more shows like that would come out. Just about the ins and outs of like really popular relationships.

You might like The OJ Show. Maybe we should watch that before we move.

That was a left turn.

No, that was the same kind of show where it was like real life but really well done with good actors.

And I think she's great too, um, the lady that plays Carolyn Bassett. I can't remember her name, but she'll be huge. She's gorgeous.

I like how you're calling her Bassett.

Bassett.

I think it's Bassett.

Bassett.

Carolyn Bassett.

Sorry, Carolyn.

You liked her, uh, you thought that '90s style was back.

Oh yeah.

The clothes.

Well, she's just classic and I like that the internet's like dressing like Carolyn Bassett today and it's like, no, like you're just dressing like a chic normal person. Like, but the internet just likes to ascribe labels and names to things that don't need them. But I do like that her style is coming back into the forefront because she's great.

And you like that roommate show on, uh, oh my God, the movie, The Sandler's Daughter.

Awesome. I love everything that those two girls do. And obviously Sandler is like my, he's my peak. I just, I love him the most. Yeah. That movie was great. I mean, as someone that's in college and you have roommates, and obviously my roommates have never ever been like that person, but it's just interesting to see and to watch and be like, that was funny. And I understand what you mean and how you feel.

The algorithm really understands you. Um, so your MVP of 2026 is Lorde.

Yes.

Who you just saw in concert.

Oh my God.

Last week. And you said it was the greatest night of your life.

She's just, I don't have many musical artists that I feel that way for. With her, it's like time stops. Like I get really weird about Lorde. I love, love, love her.

Is that a polarizing opinion or do most people feel that way?

No, I think that people, because she's been labeled like cringe at times, or her music is like too old or outdated because we all listened to it when I was 10. Remember Royals?

What's cringy though? Oh, Royals.

Yeah, but just because she's been around for such a long time, people have problems with people who have remained successful that long. And also like she's had some moments at concerts where she's like shushed the crowd and done some things, but she's just like really feels things and the internet doesn't get that sometimes. Um, I think that people that listen to her music feel the same way that I do.

And you like the Maggie what's-her-face too, right?

Um, Maggie Rogers. Oh yeah, she's great too. Me and Mom have loved her for forever, but Lorde is, is everything to me, and her concert was impeccable. There's just not a miss in any of her songs. Even if you don't know her music, it's just like every song has a beat, every song is cool. And she is like a polarized— like, the way that she dances, just her as a figure, like, she's just, she's awesome.

What's her demo?

I'd say people my age So everyone in the crowd was like around— yeah, around. I mean, at least we were in the pit and that was like all the people that are dancing. But I think Lorde is for everyone. Like, Mom loves Lorde. I think people who like music like Lorde because she's a great lyricist and like the way that she writes and the things that she says, like, they really relate to people.

So who else do you like these days? Who are you listening to?

Um, well, I'm still a big Camp fan. I know you have your mixed feelings.

I'm not against it. You and Mom just need to get a room.

Yeah, we'll get a room and go to Camp.

But I love—

I mean, that concert last summer was probably one of the best I've ever seen. I'm gonna see them again this summer.

You'll see them.

Absolutely. Like, they— he is— Marcus Mumford is incredible. It just brings me a lot of joy to see artists who are like sticking true to who they are and don't have to do all the theatrics in order to perform and can just like let their voices be the thing. I also like Sabrina Carpenter now though, which kind of goes against that.

Yeah, that was an interesting turn for you. Yeah, you didn't like her for a while.

I really like her music now, but it's also because I think I'm in a more fun part of my life.

Yeah.

And, um, I love to like go out with my friends and dance, and her music is dancing music. So now it's a little more like relatable to me. And also when you're happy, I feel like you like happy music, and her music is happy music.

So Sabrina Carpenter, good hang or bad hang, do you think?

I think she's probably great. She's definitely great. She's been media trained. She's been in like on Disney Channel since she was 10 years old. At that point, you can't not be great. She's great, I'm telling you.

Chaperone Tuffang.

I don't even want to speak on her. She doesn't deserve air here.

Speaking of Tuffangs— oh God, Alex versus Alex happened. That was another thing you were fascinated by. Alex Earl versus Alex Cooper. And you, you were listening to Call Her Daddy back when it was pretty raunchy.

Yeah.

And then you stopped at some point.

Alex Cooper, like, when her pod was good. Yeah. Um, I don't— it's, it's safe to say I have my side, and it's with Alex Earle. I stand true to Alex Earle.

Yeah.

Um, I think this argument is so ridiculous.

Well, can you give us the backstory? Because I guarantee 99% of my audience doesn't know what this is.

I know it's not exactly—

here's what I know. Alex Cooper, first she has her, her, her partner Sophia.

Yes.

Who she somehow cut out and got the pod herself. Grew the pod, came to Spotify, became a much bigger pod, went to Sirius, did like some really strange documentary that your grandfather stormed out of the room for when we tried to watch.

Like, literally left.

He doesn't storm out of most things like that.

I've never seen him storm out of a room before. He's like, I don't like this person. I'm out of here. But anyway, she builds this little, I guess, little media empire. Alex Earle is her first big hit, but they have some sort of falling out, which to me, from afar, knowing nothing, Well, I can fill you in. Yeah, tell us.

So, um, I'm assuming from what I've read, Alex Cooper gave Alex Earle a non-compete, um, contract where she wasn't allowed to— I obviously— non-compete contract means you can't do anything that would be competitive with Alex Cooper's brand.

Yeah.

And then Alex Earle comes out with Sit Margz, which is obviously a hit because it's a low-calorie tequila drink, and all of Alex Earle's fans are like little girls that just like— I mean, not little girls, girls that would like, yeah, like to drink that. And Alex Cooper came out with that Unwell hydration drink, which, I mean, I've never tried it. I have heard good things, so I won't give shit to that. But I think that was where the problem kind of started to arise, where Alex Cooper was like, hey, fuck you, I told you not to do anything that's going to compete with my stuff.

But even before that, Alex Earls' podcast was on Alex Cooper's Unwell Network.

Yeah.

And then something happened and all of a sudden—

I'm telling you, I think that kind of Sorry, the drinks thing. I think Alex Cooper is a mean girl is what I've, I've gotten from the internet. And I think she's insecure in a sense. And there's somebody—

she had somebody that was on her podcast network who was threatening to expose her. Yeah.

Like, and be in, in a more authentic way, because Alex Cooper was cool and people liked her because of the stories that she would tell.

Yeah.

Which without a doubt are super raunchy and like intense. And people's feelings are at expense of her stories, but they're interesting. And Alex Earle is kind of like a more authentic, cool, relatable older sister type who people just like in a, in a way that's like more connected than people like Alex Cooper.

Yeah, because you, you'll watch her, she does stuff like she's just doing her makeup, getting ready to go somewhere, and it's the whole process of hanging out with her as she does that.

She feels like a friend, and like Alex Cooper couldn't do that because she's not likable to most people because she's known to be mean.

Yeah.

So I think that was—

she obviously is like, well, to some degree, because she has a pretty big audience.

I was a part of that audience at some point until all of this. People on the internet are calling her a vulture, I guess, which is— I mean, I have nothing to say on that, but people are saying, and part of the problem is that Alex Cooper will come to you and you've had some terrible traumatic life event and will be the first person to kind of pick at your body and be like, let's talk about this. I didn't say that, that's what the internet's saying. Yeah, but that's kind of like a part of the thing. So then anyway, Alex Cooper comes out with this video adding Alex Earl being like, Alex, I've seen you reposting all of this stuff, like, come on, just come out and say it. And we were all like, holy shit. But it also felt like a skit. It was like the most— the weirdest like video ever. Just like, I mean, you think that she has such a big team where they'd be like, maybe make this sound a little bit more whatever.

Did you feel like at all that in wrestling we would call this a work? That they were trying to do this to—

they're riling up the audience. Yeah, but then it's weeks and weeks and Alex Earl hasn't responded or addressed anything. She went on a talk show and they asked her about it and she was like, I didn't prepare for this, I don't want any negativity, whatever, blah blah. Like did not even give it a second of time. Which leads me to believe that, like, obviously they had a falling out, but people thought it might be a PR stunt, like something else might be going on. But clearly something deeper rooted has happened, and Alex Cooper is more willing to, like, blow things up and kind of be immature. And then Alex Earle wasn't wanting to feed into it. It's a whole debacle, but my stance is I'm on Alex Earle's side, and I think Alex Cooper's being a little immature.

What are Alex Earls, what are her next 5 years look like?

Well, she just launched, um, a skincare brand called Real Actives, which people had interesting, uh, feedback for cuz most people thought she should have come out with a bikini brand or something that felt more like authentic to her audience. And a skincare brand is—

or like lingerie, like Sydney Sweeney.

Nah, she's too cool for that. Sydney Sweeney can stay in her lane, that she can do that. But Alex Earle, like she, she, there were opportunities. She chose skincare, which is, I mean, Sure. Um, so that seems like it's going well. I've seen posts about it. People seem to like it. I haven't purchased it myself and I don't think I will, but good for her. So your lane would've been core power yoga, something, you know, like something that would've prompted people to purchase it more.

I don't know.

I think skincare is, is a tough whatever. It seems like she's doing well and then she has St. Mark's, so she's, she's successful. She seems like she's doing well.

All right. Just so people don't think you're catty. Two people you really like.

Did I sound catty in that?

Not at all.

I apologize.

Not at all. But you really like Kylie and Kendall?

I do. I really do.

When you told this to me, I was surprised because I felt like the Kardashians—

they get a tough rep.

They do.

That's for sure.

I wouldn't say it's, you know, completely undeserved.

Yeah, sure. At the same time, I am like a huge Kylie stan. I'm still unclear on how I feel about Kendall because she has taken my husband, so I'm gonna need a minute to—

Jacob Elordi.

—think on that one. I'm not even ready to talk about that yet.

Um, how long have they been together, Kendall and Jacob Elordi?

They went to Hawaii last week. I almost threw my phone out the window. Whatever. Um, Kylie's great. She, she just really is. I love her. What's great about her?

Tell her why you— tell me why you like her.

I think she's a super authentically kind person. And obviously people might be like, what are you saying? She's one of the biggest stars, and like, how could she be an authentically kind person? But in every single interview, in every single fan interaction, everything that I've seen of her, she's just like a nice, cool, normal, down-to-earth person in light of everything that has happened to her. Like, she's been in front of a camera since, what, she was like 8 years old, right? And the fact that she's like a normal, cool, kind person that's liked by most the people that she meets. Like, that is— that says a lot to me because people aren't like that these days.

What was the thing you were telling me about when she had a kid and she gained weight and she was like, well, she went—

she went on Jake Shane's podcast last week, which is where this like real love ignited for me because I just— I loved her personality. I was like, I'd be friends with this person in a heartbeat. Like, she seems great. Don't have a heart attack over that one.

You'd be friends with whoever you want. You, you tend to overrate all Jake Shane appearances though.

Uh, I— but she was talking about how when she had her daughter Stormi, she was in the best shape of her life. And then she got pregnant and was eating pints of ice cream every single night and bagels and all sorts of things. And by the time she was giving birth to her daughter, she was 200 pounds and didn't even like flinch in saying that. And I just think in this day and age, especially with how skeletal people in Hollywood have become and like the GLP-1 and everyone's just so, so skinny. For someone to admit that they're— they were 200 pounds, someone as like much of a force as Kylie Jenner is, and she's constantly talked about for her looks and everything. Yeah, was— I mean, I thought that that was pretty a cool thing to do. So I'm big in on her.

In the rundown you sent me, things you wanted to talk about, you wrote Kylie and Kendall have single-handedly taken down the Twin Towers, Jacob and Timmy.

Well, that is my only problem with that.

Just went to Hawaii. Yeah.

I think, well, um, Kendall and, and Jacob went to Hawaii and then they got caught on a double date and there's some awesome paparazzi pictures of them in a car like covering their faces. Um, I think Kendall and Jacob are a great couple and will probably have beautiful children if that's the route that it's going for. I do think that they're too big on their own to be able to be together in a way that could ever be normal, but I could be wrong.

You know my theory about this. I've talked about this forever. I haven't. Two celebrities, when they date, two famous people, they have to stay in the same level. In the moment one passes the other, they have to break up.

Yeah. I don't know.

It's gotta be like this. It can't start doing this.

I don't think that they'll last. It's a fun moment though. And my prayers go to Olivia Jade, cuz that's a tough one.

That was the before Jacob Elordi one?

Jacob's ex who was on and off for like 7 years.

That's the one who was the Lori Loughlin's daughter? Yes. I love her too.

Do you like her? The USC girl? I love her. I watch all of her videos. Why do you like her? She's super cool and normal. Her videos, she doesn't really let her personality shine. It's just kind of like esthetics, getting ready, but she's super cute and has great style. I just, I like watching her stuff and her outfits and things.

What's the TikTok, Instagram attention span like? What, what's happening in 2026?

What's different in the last 6 years in terms of people being able to What do you mean?

Are there any trends? Are people starting to realize maybe I shouldn't be on my phone this much?

What's happening? I mean, people will say that, but will that ever happen? Like, no. I think TikTok is just as big, if not bigger, than it was before, especially because there's now the shop, which is incredibly annoying to me, but a good move on their part. You know about the TikTok shop?

Do you buy stuff?

Yeah. Like the fact that there's consumer things now too, it just drags even more people in. Okay. Um, Instagram, at least for me, is just becoming a place to post. It's not really a place that I like frequently scroll on. Instagram Reels are great, but they're not as— I don't like get as much into a trance as I do with TikToks.

Do you still go on people's posts when they post pictures of themselves and go, "Gorge!"?

I really don't anymore. Hearts! No, I don't do gorge or hearts. I'll only really— So pretty! I'll only really comment on like my best friend's posts. You phase out of it, you know? I'd like to get off of Snapchat at some point soon, but it's my main form of communication with my boyfriend and other people.

So Snapchat's still kicking.

And don't judge me for that. What? That's— people judge for using Snapchat, especially in relationships, but I just like to see the face. I like to see someone else's face.

Well, you, you, your generation has this whole thing where you just take pictures of your, where you are and send them to each other.

Yeah. Like BeReal and stuff. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is how it is. I would rather— I just want to see photos. I think texting all the time is boring anyway.

What social media device do you think Murph would use?

He needs a lobotomy or something. I don't know what's going on with him. He really has chilled out. It's impressive.

He's old. He's almost 6 years old.

Don't say that. He's not old.

He's a baby. If he was human, he'd be like 40. He's a baby. He still doesn't like other dogs. Yeah. Um, all right, other stuff. You, you You deep dove the pit. I did. Which last time you did a hospital drama that you binged was Grey's Anatomy during COVID and you, you, your personality changed.

It put me into a place. Yeah.

You were like in a dark spot for like 3 months.

Well, you'll be happy to hear I did rewatch Grey's Anatomy this last semester. That was my show.

The entire show.

It's like 18 seasons. No, no, no. We only got through like 3, 3 seasons, I think. Yeah. He hasn't even seen George die yet. So hopefully he's not listening to this. Yeah. Um, he's definitely listening to this. And then we, um, switched over to the Pit halfway through watching Grey's Anatomy and it was like, I can't ever watch Grey's Anatomy again.

The Pit's just, yeah, it's like nightmare. The Pit spoils everything.

Yeah. I mean, what an amazing show. I hate to say it, my attention span is short, especially when it comes to watching television. My attention span in regular life is fine, but when I'm watching TV, I need to be stimulated by something else, which is something I'm trying to work on. Um, like even yesterday watching— we were watching a movie and I had no—

we watched the Wemby game and it was like one of the most important basketball games of the century.

And I did that despite you because you kept punching my phone and pissing me off. Well, I was just like, I'm not gonna be satisfied.

He doesn't touch. You're like Warren and there's something about marrying the headphones.

Try to rage bait me and I don't like it, so I was trying to make you angry back anyway. Um, The Pit is phenomenal. But my point to that was that I didn't pick up my phone once at any point watching that. You're locked in because it moves so quickly. I wish we had more TV shows that were so fast-paced like that. And just like, I, I don't know, the way that it was filmed was just special.

So yeah, you never left the hospital. There wasn't really any music. There's never a moment of calm.

And like that, I mean, maybe that's a problem that That's the only reason why I wouldn't pick up my phone. But like, I think TV has gotten boring and there's too many pauses and things, and this show was just like perfect.

That, that led to one of Mom's best quotes. Oh God. When she said how she wished she'd been smarter cuz she would've been a great doctor. She would've been a great trauma doctor. She's not afraid of any sort of terrible situation. Yeah. She doesn't get grossed out by blood.

Her one problem is she panics. She's a panicker.

I wish she'd panic in the ER though.

She's a loud panicker though. Oh God, what happened? And it's like, you have this— oh, back up. Sorry, Murph. Wow, you just jostled Murph out of his nap. Yeah, but the pit is great. Anyone get canceled this year? Um, I mean, everyone gets canceled, but currently it's James Charles, which makes me sad because I, I actually was telling all my friends that I'm in on him, and I, I was like, in spite of everything he's done— because a lot of people have done terrible things, and I acknowledge that he's Pretty— he's not a great person.

Multiple times he's done some weird shit.

He's not a good person regardless. I started to like him again because I thought he was funny. Like, I just saw a lot of clips of him just— he doesn't care. He's just becoming one of those people where just he'd say whatever he wanted and it was like, that's funny because why would you do that, whatever. Um, but he has just gotten canceled again.

So there's no new person this year? There's no Rookie of the Year come up?

Well, I'm a big Stassi Schroeder fan. Back to the, um, or no, sorry, Stassi Baby, not Stassi Schroeder. I'm sure she's great too. Stassi Baby, Kylie Jenner's best friend. She's my favorite right now. Kylie Jenner's best friend?

Yes.

What does she do? She's an influencer, but they've been best friends since Kylie was a little kid and they were on Kardashians together. And then it's kind of like the internet grew up with her. She's great. I love her. So what does she bring to the table? She just does makeup and is— she, she goes out all the time. This is brain rot. She goes out all the time and I love like watching her get ready and then she films her night out with her friends and it's just like, this is so fun to watch because there's nothing more fun than that.

So, um, The Drama was another one you liked. Yeah, the movie.

Back to Zendaya, that movie was great. I thought it was great. Anything else?

Any horror movie this year?

Um, I'm excited for The Backrooms. That will be really fun to watch. And it's also just incredible that a 20-year-old is, is the person who produced it and created it. That makes me want to see it even more. Um, but the idea about The Backrooms has been something that has fascinated me for forever, so I'm excited to see it.

I've been pointing that out to you a lot about these people when they're in your age range, how just weird it is to me that somebody who's 20 is making a movie and and Wemby's 22, he's a year older than you, right?

It makes you feel bad about yourself.

No, not just like— no, it does. No, because sometimes people peak early.

You're doing great. Well, I mean, Taylor Swift, and she was a 17-year-old or 16, probably younger than that, like came out with the debut album. It's like this— I mean, she's a generational musician. I know, but I'm just saying it's, it's, it's, it's weird getting older because the people around you—

I brag about you all the time. Thanks. I know, jobs this summer. Yeah, it's impressive.

It'll be cool. I'm a CorePower Yoga Sculpt instructor if anyone's in Boston and wants to come to my classes. Great.

Uh, what's Taylor Swift's next 2 years look like?

You know, uh, I really like her music. I'm sure she's happy. I, I can't say that I like her as a person right now because she seemed—

she's aged out of your extended demo.

It's not that at all. I, I like people who are older. I don't care for that. It's the fact that she kind of will create a posse and have a lot of people around her and then drops them like flies. And I get you're a famous person and you have to do that sometimes because if people cross you, then you can't have them around. Because I mean, she's in a tough position. At the same time, like, I don't love that. That doesn't— I don't know, I can't judge because I'm from afar. Yeah, but I think it's also her fandom that gives me problems because I don't want to be lumped in with the real, like, crazies. Yeah, but I do like her music a lot, so I think she'll— she's gonna get married. I don't know where, probably in Rhode Island. That'll be cool.

Pay-per-view. Yeah, pay-per-view, $100 to do it like a boxing UFC event.

There's no way that she would do that.

$75 wedding.

There's no way that she would do that. I'm sure she'll be pregnant soon. She'll have ginormous babies with Travis Kelce. It'll be great.

It's some, some big kids. She's like 5'11".

She's also like a great athlete, probably. She's a great dancer, so I'm gonna assume.

All right, how's it— how's it feel turning 21?

Um, you know, I have no— nothing's holding me back anymore. It's a nice feeling. I didn't like being Quinn and going up to the— to the bartender, allegedly, and for them— for me to be like, oh, I don't know if like this is gonna work out for me. And now my life has just opened up. Am I allowed to tell them the story about you?

No. Why not? Which story? No, no, no stories about me on my own podcast. I'll just edit it out. Okay. You don't get it. We had a really fun night though. We did.

The best time ever. I think that was one of my favorite days ever.

It was. Except the Celtics lost.

Yeah, that, that if they had won, it would have been the cherry on top. But to see you take about 4 Fanta shots, which they're exactly how they sound. And one was dyed green. Yeah, that was great. And then, um, I enjoyed— I enjoyed you having your, um, transfusions, which every time I looked away and then I turned back, somehow you had another one in your hand. I don't know how it was happening.

I was nervous because the Celtics were in a Game 7. I know. I figured they were probably gonna lose, and you were trying to lose.

Nervous drinking.

Pussy, you turned 21, and it was freaking me out.

It was a big day, and we had a big night the night before too. Mom really had a home run. Ben even had a home run. And then, yeah, it was great karaoke.

We did. Um, yeah, it was weird because I— because 11 years before your 21st, I remember we went ziplining in, uh, Catalina, and that seems like it was like 5 minutes ago.

Yeah, well, but let's go slower for you. It goes faster for me. I don't— well, yeah, obviously it goes faster for you, but It feels like these last few years have really sped by. Like, I feel like Ben just had his senior prom the other day, which we went to, and it like, it made me sad because it's like Ben just entered high school. It feels like, I feel like I just had my senior prom and all of a sudden it's like Ben is going to college.

And you have one more soccer year left starting at age 4. This is like year, year 17. Yeah. I won't give up on it though.

I'm going to do something with soccer. I can't let it go. But I'm excited for your last year. Yeah, but it's, it's, it's all I have because the, the Celtics are in shambles.

The Patriots—

oh my God, Jaylen Brown, to cut, to, to end it off, we have to talk about it.

Oh yeah, you went to a lot of Celtic games this year. Well, I'm, I'm a devoted fan. You were like a legitimate fan this year.

I've, I've kind of unfortunately was lucky because Papa Doc wasn't able to make most of the games, so I got a lot of tickets. Nets. Yeah. Um, I've really been—

you're dating somebody who loves basketball. Yeah.

But I've really become attached to this team, mostly Jason. But if Jalen—

well, your guy Kader was—

I've been rooting for Kader for 2 and a half years, even before he could— he looked like Bambi on Ice for like a season. Yeah, he couldn't— like, he was not together. So do you study the Tatum-Jalen body language when Tatum came back and how they interacted. You kind of started to tell me about it, and it's just not something I ever would have wanted to look for because why would I want them to be rooting against each other? Yeah, it's totally there. Like, they totally do not get along in a sense.

Well, they don't not get along, it's just they don't seem—

it doesn't seem like they're like—

they seem like co-workers.

Yeah, I'm not positive Jalen was rooting for Tatum to come back and be great. Yeah. It feels like, I mean, as an athlete and as a soccer player, it's like she, he had his, like, there was a moment and a real opportunity in time where he was the, the leader and like gonna be the savior of the team. Yeah. And he was great. Like, he, he really was. He stepped up to the plate. And then Tatum comes back and everyone's like, oh, thank God. Like, Tatum's back. Now we have a chance. And I could understand how you might have a chip on your shoulder if that's the reaction of the fandom.

It's like with Murph in our house when, when Willie comes. Yeah. Cuz we, we gave Willie, we gave our dog Willie to your grandmother after your grandfather died and Willie hangs out with her. But when he comes back to the house, Murph acts like Jaylen Brown.

Yeah. He's like, I've, I've been running this shit and you were gone.

The office closed for me, motherfucker.

You're coming back into my territory.

I'll be the one that goes to the backyard first. You will follow me.

But if Makes me sad. I'm gonna try and dribble through all 5 players on the court and you're not getting the ball.

Stand over there, put your hand up.

It makes me sad. And if, if Jalen leaves it, I mean, I don't know what, what to make of that.

I, I hope they stay together and maybe they will if there's not a good enough trade. But I do, I do really have the feeling he wants his own thing though, because they won the title. If they hadn't won the title, that would be different, right? But yeah. They already won the title and now he's like, kind of really like to have my own team.

I get it. Are there any prospects for who can come in and save us? Because I'd, I'd like that.

There's some good trades. No, they'll, they'll be able to get some good guys. Plus, I don't know how many more years until Deuce is the backup center. Like 10? Deuce is like 5 feet tall now. He's huge.

I always see him in warmups and he's like doing his thing. Yeah. That would make me sad though. Jalen always has like a little handshake with him before the game. Like, that'd be a bummer.

That's the thing. It's so rare to stay together for that long. Like, even Klay Thompson and Steph Curry eventually broke up. Yeah. Because Klay Thompson, they didn't want to keep him. To stay together for your entire careers is like the rarest thing you could do. Yeah. Which makes me think it won't happen. Yeah.

And also for them to be working in tandem for so long, it, it's understandable how they, he might want his own thing.

Well, you like tall guys. Wemby's probably too tall for you though.

He's too tall. 7'7". I've gotten more mature. I don't, I don't need them to be ginormous anymore.

Like a Lordi size?

That'd be great. And he's Australian.

Hopefully Hank is Australian, but that's a bonus.

I, I love Australia. I've been telling you forever I'd like to go there, but just people from other places are like— an accent's a cool thing.

It's very similar to Boston. That's why you like it.

Yeah. Is it? Yeah. Really fun, rambunctious people. People are happy there and they're happy because it's sunny and they're all beautiful all the time. And it's like, why would that not be a place where you want to go? Marco Robbie's also from there. Maybe I have to go there after college. I'd like to maybe take a visit.

All right, Zoe Simmons, congratulations on turning 21. You've been coming on my podcast since I was at ESPN when you sang Christmas songs. Oh, I remember that. That was like early, late 2000s. Yeah. Quite a run for you.

It's been a long time. Murph's first appearance.

I'm glad you're able to do this.

Does Murph have any final words? I wish I could move the mic towards him. Murph? Murph? Have anything to say? Nothing. He's giving it a sniff.

Can't speak. All right. Thanks, Zoe. Thanks, Dad. All right. That's it for the podcast. Thanks to House. Thanks to Debundo and CR. Thanks to my daughter. Thanks to Murph Simmons. Thanks to Gahau and Eduardo as well. And don't forget to watch Animal House before we do Rewatchables about it next Monday. I'm going to be back on this feed. We're going to be live on Netflix after Game 2, Knicks-Cavs. It's going to be me and Mahoney, and we're going to be talking about that game. And I'll have a whole bunch of other stuff for that podcast as well, including some special Survivor content. So stay tuned for that. I will see you on Thursday. Must be 21+ in President Select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18+ in President DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Opt-in required bonus issued as non-withdrawable profit boost tokens. Restrictions apply, including any token expiration, max wager amount. See terms at sportsbook.fanduel.com. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-GAMBLER. IReset. Call 888-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut, or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope Is Here, visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York.

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