The Bill Simmons Podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. The Conference Finals finally is here. We are down to 4 teams. Think you know it'll go down? Take your shot with FanDuel. Get closer to the action. And as you know, I've been telling you for years, FanDuel, the best place to bet the teams, players, and plays during the NBA postseason. Build the same game parlay. For a shot at a better payout, or try live betting and jump into the action after tip-off, or just follow me and my picks because every once in a while I'll put them on social. Download the FanDuel Sportsbook app right now and play your game. 21+ select states or 18+ DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem, call 1-800-GAMBLER, call 888-789-7777, or visit ccpg.org/chat. Connecticut. All right, the Bill Simmons Podcast. We are live after Game 5. Our friend Tim Legler is here, kind of a A ghostly visage here for him. Kind of, kind of mad.
It's like, yeah, definitely, man. It's my Queen album cover look.
I like it. Well, matching the weirdness, weirdness we just had, I think it's kind of fitting because it, it feels like— I don't know if the Spurs can beat OKC too, nor— we have a lot to discuss. Wanted to mention I have new rewatchables coming that came out on Monday. We did Animal House. You must love Animal House. That must have been, of course, from way back when. Of course. But you can catch that and you can hear Legs. What's the name of your podcast? The All Things Podcast?
All City. All City.
All City Podcast.
I'm blanking.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And of course you can see Legs on the, on the finals, which are coming up. All right. Game 5. I, here's my big takeaway. Just a missed opportunity for the Spurs.
Oh yeah.
I felt like, you know, it's 2-2. AJ Mitchell gets scrapped. Jalen, Jalen Williams gets scratched pretty much like an hour before the game, although I, I feel like we were expecting a little bit. And then SGA comes out and was really bad for the first 6 minutes of the game. He said after the game, he said that was like the worst first quarter he's had in his career. He's probably exaggerating. And the Spurs, I just never really felt the urgency. They showed that, that, that one halftime speech when it was like 87-71, whatever it was, they're down 16 and Wemby's got the guys around and, and then they came out and played with some passion for, I don't know, 4 minutes. But I don't know, man. Did they think this was a 19-game series? What's going on with them?
Here's what I think. A couple of things. I think first of all, I, you're right about the opportunity. I mean, you know, listen, you, you've gotta win another game there to win the series, right? And so you look at this situation, you don't have Jaylen Williams, you don't have AJ Mitchell. It's like their first, first game, they're going to get, get them like kind of like, wow, you know, this is a lot of pressure on us here because if we don't win this game, we're going to have to go to San Antonio with the prospect of being closed out. It's an awful lot of pressure on the home team in a 2-2 situation, and you're missing a couple of guys. So some guys are going to have to step up. So you would think like San Antonio's approach should be like, this is a game not only that, you know, we can get, we have to get. That's kind of how I think their approach should have been going in. They probably felt that way. Um, I— they just didn't play well enough in this situation to get it done. And I think one of the things that jumps out right away is you look at Victor Wembanyama, and a lot was being talked about like during the game that, you know, he's kind of quiet, passive, didn't get a lot of shots, didn't get a lot of touches where he wants it.
He had some free throws, so his numbers weren't like horrific early. But the thing that I'm thinking about while I'm watching that bill is this. When you look at the other top guys in this league, just go with like the, the All-NBA team if you want to, and even guys on the second team, like those are guys because of the nature of their game, like physically the, you know, their, their dimensions, they can get theirs when they want to get theirs. A lot of times that's not always the case for Victor Wembanyama and it's not going to be. He's 7 foot, you know, 4'5", whatever you want to call it. He's slightly built.
7'6", 7'7".
Whatever you want to call it. Yeah, they say every time I hear a game with Victor Wanyama on it, they say his height differently. So I don't even know. Let's— I typically go with 7'5" because that's what it looks like to me. He can't just go get it when he wants to because of that. Sometimes it works against him if he's not catching the ball in ideal spots, if some of their actions aren't designed —so he can get a quick roll to the rim from a decent, um, distance, not 28 feet where he's got to take 2, 3 strides to get where he can get chipped and bumped along the way. If he can't find those actions, those spaces, or even some of the early stuff sometimes when he gets some threes going because it's early in transition, he can't just go put it down, use his live dribble, cross guys up, have a counter move off the dribble and get what he wants, go to a fadeaway jumper or an up and under in the mid-range or whatever. It's just harder for him. So there's going to be nights when that offense isn't just going to be automatic.
And most of those guys in this league, when you look at Jokic, you look at Shay, you know, you look at Luka, you look at the Cade Cunninghams of the world, the Jaylen Browns of the world. When you look at those Anthony Edwards, when you look at those guys like— and look, they're not always going to shoot great, but they can operate in spaces where they can go get a shot for themselves. Most of the time if they're not blitzed. And it's not that way for Victor Wembenyama. So there's going to be nights when that offense is going to be a little inconsistent. Now, he affects the game defensively, he could rebound, he could do all those things, but there are nights, man, when you need your best player to go get you 30, and, and he is not going to be able to do that whenever he wants because of the way he's built. And that's kind of one thing I noticed about this game early. The way he was being defended, how hard it was for him to get touches where he wants it. He didn't really get involved in the game offensively.
And in a game like this with what's at stake, kind of needed Victor Wembenyama to be a lot better than he was offensively.
Yeah. You're talking about the concept of feeling somebody throughout a game, right? The best players in the league, you just kind of feel them. Even if they're not having the best game, they're still around. They're in it. What's weird is They did this in Game 3 and they made a big deal after in Game 4, Pop came in and yelled at us after and we had to go back to being us and we had to, and it's like, I thought you guys learned your lesson already that if you're just the, the 3-point shooting team and Wemby's 25 feet from the basket, that this isn't gonna really work. Now you could also argue they lost the game because they gave up almost 130 points, but I'm with you like, okay, see, Um, because they were able to capitalize on some of the turnovers and some of the, some of the weirdness of the game and were able to patch together some stretches even when SGA wasn't playing well. I just, when I watch it, 'cause I obviously love watching Wemby as, as do you, I just don't really understand how they use him sometimes. Like when you talk about like how do you get him more involved?
They were talking on the broadcast about get him in the paint. See, see what happens when he is in the paint. Is it really that hard to get him near the paint? Like, you could start him under the basket and have him like drift up. You could have him kind of near the block trying to back in, but they always seem like they fall in this habit of he's just at the top of the key. His 3 wasn't going tonight. I didn't feel like he had his legs tonight either. He was 0 for 5 from 3. So for me, it's like, are you doing what OKC wants you to do? And the answer is yes. This is— they're, they're really hoping going into this game that you're gonna play this way with him. And that's, that's how it played out.
I think there are ways to get him the ball. And look, they know this. Mitch Johnson's a great coach. They, there, there are ways to get him the ball. Sometimes it, it happens a little bit more organically for them. They mandate it, whatever it may be. His determination to get it. I love him personally when he sets ball screens inside of, you know, 23 feet, 22 feet. He sets elbow ball screens. He sets ball screens. Yeah. Where he starts at the elbow and sort of heads out toward the sideline, sets it so that when he spins out of it, it's like one stride. It's easier to come off the screen and just quickly throw it to him as he's first starting to move toward the rim. And then it's very difficult for the rotating defender to do much with it because of where he's catching the ball. If you just think he's going to run down the floor, go into the post area, and just kind of put his hand up and get it where he wants, you can see time and time again he gets into wrestling matches down there, even against smaller guys.
It's not that easy to do. And sometimes I think their guards don't give him enough time when he gets a switch. He's got a smaller guy. He, you know, a lot of guys in this league, like if it's Jokic, let's just use as an example that obviously wants to touch the ball in the post as well. It's a guy like Jokic, he gets the switch, he goes somewhere, you know, near the lane and then he just stops, camps out and uses his weight and strength and just holds the guy there. Puts a hand up and you can just lead him and he catches everything. You know, Wemba has got good hands too, but it's harder for him to, to just hold his position and keep, keep that defender at bay that's trying to back into him and they're trying to use their back into his thighs and like dislodge him. Now he can get there. You've got to give him an extra count. And the problem is against OKC, that means the ball handler needs a little bit more time. The pass needs a little bit more time. The problem is they're being pressured. Like hell out there.
So they can't just sit there and hold it and wait for Victor to get his position down there. They end up reversing it. And by the time he now looks like he's ready to receive it, the ball's going to the other side of the floor. It's going to the top of the key, then to the other side. And now you're asking an awful lot. Now, is he going to flash from one side through traffic, get bumped 3 times, and go catch it on the other side of the lane? That, that's just not his game. That's not his physical profile. To play that way. So the quick hitters off the ball screens, when he sets the screen closer to the rim and he dives quicker, the ball hits him like right away as he's moving. He can catch it, he can do something really effective with it. And actually, that's where he draws most of his fouls. I didn't see him involved in a lot of actions like that in this game. He was catching it a lot and then turning and facing and trying to figure out what he wanted to do against guys off the dribble.
Right. And that's just not going to be there every night for him. The way that it is other elite scorers in this league who can get lower. They can set you up, get into a step-back jumper from wherever they want. They can cross you up, counter, maybe even cross you up and then go back between their legs the same direction and get like a little pull-up and operate in a one-on-one space. That's just not going to be there all the time for, for Victor. And it wasn't really tonight and they needed more from him. And, you know, at the same time, Oklahoma City was getting really good performances from some guys that had to be big tonight, one of which, you know, you had texted me earlier and said McCain's got to have a great game. 7 for 19 is not a great night, but it was very important.
Second half, yeah, second half, very impactful. Yeah, it's— well, and that's your younger guys usually at home are going to be a little bit of a safer bet. I wrote down maybe playoff experience does matter, question mark. So here's the thing with playoff experience, because this was the thing This was the thing we always talked about during this season with the Spurs. They're too young. They're not ready yet. Well, what does that mean? You think like you're too young, that means, oh my God, there's so much pressure. I don't know what to do. I've never been here before. It's like almost like how it would be like with a quarterback like Drake May in the playoffs last year. Ooh. And then, and then, well, we have Dave Jacoby here on the Zoom for some reason, trying to figure out. This is exciting. Um, but, uh, but when I think about playoff experience, sometimes it's just kind of knowing what to do in a game like this, right? He's 22 years old. It's like, hey, they don't have Jaylen Williams, they don't have AJ Mitchell. Come out in the first half and have like the game of your life.
Have like your ESPN Classic game. And that's the youth thing. I feel like when he's 27, 28 years old, you just approach this game a little bit differently. But I don't listen. Oh, good.
No, I was just going to say, now you're right. I look at the, like, the Dylan Harper component to this. He's such an X factor because he's so physically talented. He's a guy that can play through the pressure, the, you know, the grabbing, holding that you're going to get against these OKC guards. Particularly in the postseason, he could play through that stuff. He's just got strong shoulders, forearms. He can still get to his spots. He's got, you know, multiple speeds he plays with. I think he's a little bit like more affected when De'Aaron Fox is out there. De'Aaron Fox is running more of the show. It's almost like Dylan Harper is, is like in a different mindset. You know, a game like this, he plays 25 minutes, he takes 5 shots from the field. Dylan Harper's too good a player And he is physically too gifted against this type of defense for him to be some sort of afterthought for them offensively. He needed to be much more aggressive, had the opportunity to be aggressive. He could have made up for some of what Wemby wasn't giving you, right? Because not everybody on this team can play through that stuff.
Harper can. He can still get where he wants to get on the floor, but he really was sort of quiet and and passive. And he, look, he's a young player on the road in the biggest game of his life. Yeah, that probably factors into it. And some of these guys from the Thunder, man, have been here before. Their younger players are just a little bit older than some of San Antonio's young players, right? Yeah. Yeah.
I thought, I felt like Castle in the first half was like that. Like he was just super sloppy and I thought was hurting them. And then in the second half you could see he's like, you know, I'm gonna put, I'm going to get my defense going. I'm going to put my head, I'm going to get that, get to the basket. And he actually had a really good second half. Harper did not. And Fox was bad. I don't, I think Fox is hurt. I don't feel like he had any left. I agree. He's 4 for 15. He just didn't have that.
Trying to play through it, man. And I respect that. I really do, man. You know, you're not going to sit there and if you can go, you're not going to sit there and watch other guys play like you're, you know, well, they need a guy.
He's the only guy to take care of the ball.
Absolutely need him. He's, you know, had the one playoff series under his belt, you know, before this season. This guy's like, I'm not missing this for anything. But I think you're right because he has, he has that next level quickness that gets to from point A to point B. And against a team like the Thunder, you really need that because of the way they close down driving lanes. They're so good at helping in the lane, closing out with speed to the 3-point line. Like, he can match that speed and he doesn't quite seem like he's got all of that. And it is what it is. He's going to play through it. But you know, 33 minutes, 4 for 15 from the field, that, that's not really typical for De'Aaron Fox. For a guy that's such a natural scorer, I don't, I agree with you. I don't think he's right.
Not a lot of coast-to-coast stuff with him. No. Either. With all that said, Wemby, Wemby kind of sucked for him. Fox didn't have lift. Harper didn't really show up. And Champagny kind of kept them in the game in the first half. I kind of liked the shots San Antonio was getting at this game. They had, they missed a lot of corner threes in the second half. I thought there were stretches where I didn't, I didn't love the whistle they were getting offensively. I thought they did a bunch of dumb stuff defensively and some, some of the fouls. But, but it was weird. They were hanging around, hanging around, and it was at one point near the end of the third quarter, I think it was 8, and it was like, shit, this is, They, they're gonna steal this game. I, I've seen this before. Wemby's gonna put the superhero cape on in the fourth quarter. But OKC did a really good job. And Hartenstein, Hartenstein and, uh, Caruso, and then McCain getting hot near the end. But I thought Hartenstein and Caruso— if you had to pick the number 2 MVP of OKC for this series, after SGA obviously, who's the MVP, who would your number 2 MVP choice for OKC be?
Because mine would be Caruso. Man, it's tough.
I honestly, yeah, you probably would be Caruso. The timeliness of his shooting, what he always gives you in other areas, but the timeliness of his shooting and scoring has been immense in this series. But again, you could handpick some spots for Hartenstein too. You go, where would they be without the way he played? Um, Chet, you know, has not been anything like overwhelming offensively, pretty solid. I thought Hartenstein was great in this game. He really was with his, his rebounding, his, his touch, the way he makes you pay with that little push shot, which is, you know, I always refer to as releasing the doves. It's just the strangest looking shot that he has perfected. And he just, he's letting the, he lets the doves go like in Central Park somewhere. Like that's what it looks like. He shot one of those, by the way, over Wembenyama on the right baseline. That, that ball must have traveled like 8, 9, 10 feet. Above the square. It was like a moonshot. It was. And so you think about the actual distance, it was like a 12-foot shot that traveled a greater distance than most NBA 3-point shots.
Well, the other thing I love with him, he, that's how, how high that ball traveled.
Yeah. The other thing I love with him, well, 2 things. First of all, his fouls are just hard. You feel them fouls that aren't flagrants, but Yeah. Each one is like a foul and a half. Yeah. The other thing, he gets offensive rebounds, but they always feel like they're these big kind of quarter swinging offensive rebounds. Like he had 2 in a row that led to, I think, 2 threes. I'm gonna say it was like an 8-point game, all of a sudden it was a 13-point game just 'cause he kept 2 possessions alive. So there, I agree with you. I, I said this in a, a pod a couple days ago, like I thought in game 1, I was like, man, they're gonna play him off the floor. You're not gonna be able to keep him. And now, now you watch and you go, how are they gonna let this guy leave the summer? 'Cause he's got like the $29 million team option. J Dub's contract pumps up, Holmgren's contract pumps up. They got Lou Dort they have to figure out, you know, they're gonna be in some real tax issues. They haven't shown a huge appetite to pay it, but I don't see how you let Harden stay.
I don't see how you let him leave. I also think he'd have real value to, I don't know, 8, 10 other teams that have cap space, or at least the mid-level.
Definitely. Because he— one thing he totally understands also is he is the master at finding that late-in-the-possession little pocket that he has to get to to make himself available when a guard penetrates. And then maybe it's— they've already tried a couple of actions, it wasn't going. Now a guy just gets downhill and it's like going to be a bad shot that somebody's about to throw up at the rim. And then here comes Hartenstein from the baseline and he flashes right into that middle of the lane area, you know. Yeah, 10, 12 feet, he catches it and he gets that soft shot out. So he bails out some of their possessions, he gives them extra possessions. Then he has 6 offensive rebounds. I don't think you can tangibly even quantify how many additional offensive rebound opportunities he creates because they've got 2 guys trying to keep him off the glass, right? Other guys, guards, then sneak in and run down a long one. That guard should have been there for the opponent. They're not because they're helping chip on Hartenstein because they're tired of watching him get 2 or 3 in a row. So that's a whole nother element to like what he brings to it just because of his activity.
And I love that your, your point about the fouls. You don't play through those for and-ones against Hartenstein. That he's gonna, he's gonna hit you in a way. And again, he said it's all, it's all legal stuff. He's chopping down on, you know, arms, biceps, forearms as guys are trying to get up. And then you're gonna feel it and you're not gonna, most importantly, you're not gonna play through it for an and one. You're gonna have to go earn 'em. And in a lot of cases, maybe, you know, your, your arm is like numb when you're like going up there to try to shoot.
Big welt in your arm. Yeah. So SJ had 32, 16 for 17 free throws, 6 turnovers. McCain, 18. Hardenstein was 12 and 15 and Caruso was 22 with 6 steals and 4 threes. I have 2 big picture questions for you. This is the basketball fan, just that after game 1, which was an all-time, all-time, all-timer, it was like, wow, buckle up. This is a series for the ages. Did we fly a little too close to the sun? Because we haven't had a good game since. This series has not been a classic. Game 1 had all of the everything you'd ever want. And then we've had 4 kind of, eh, probably never watch any parts of any of these games again. Where, where are we with this series now? Because I'm watching, well, that'll lead to big question number 2, but I'm watching this one like, I really thought this was gonna be the finals and it doesn't 100% feel that way. So why?
Most anticipated game of the entire season without a doubt. With what's at stake in this game. 'Cause what I said earlier, San Antonio, a lot of people, you know, believe can win the series, were going to win the series. This is your chance. This is your chance. You know, they, they both, they each split on each other's floor. So now you go, okay, this is what it sets up. This Game 5, you get it, you get that last home opportunity to close out the defending champion.
This is what we grew up with, these awesome Game 5s. This is it.
This is like the Game 5.
One that shows on NBA TV for 20 years.
Game 5 is the one. And I agree with you. I mean, obviously what all you really want as a fan when you sit down to watch it, as a broadcaster, if I'm calling the game, just give me some drama late. That's all you really ask for, man. So somebody that has to really rise up and show a lot of nerve to knock down a big shot, like some great defensive play. That's all you're asking for, man. That inside of a minute. Game could go either way type of feel to it. And no, you haven't really had— he had that incredible first game, was the greatest games any of us have ever seen in the playoffs. And you're thinking, as we all were, oh man, we're gonna get like 5 or 6 more of those. Oh, it's going to be incredible. And it's— I guess that was too hard to live up to, man.
Um, but look, it might have taken something out of both teams. Like, we've had a bunch of injuries since that game and a bunch of guys that don't look like they're 100% anymore.
Yeah, well, hey, listen, at least it certainly beat what, you know, we were calling in the Eastern Conference Finals with what went on. We certainly got that same drama in Game 1 of that series. Yeah, you did. With what the Knicks had to do, 22-point deficit in less than 8 minutes, and Brunson just put on an all-time show. And then, you know, goes overtime, Knicks win, and then the rest is history. And you know particularly how those last two ended in Cleveland. Um, so at least, you know, these games, even though like Oklahoma City got up 10, 12, 15, 18, whatever it was, you're still sitting there going, there's enough time, Spurs are good enough. And like, the, the way the game was kind of going, you're like, Spurs could make an 8-0 run here, 10-0 run. This could still get to a 6-point game with 5 minutes to go. And they just, you know, in, in both cases throughout the series, haven't been able to make that run that really made the other team feel it outside of Game 1, really feel it, that they were going to chase you down. You're going to have to really earn this late in the game.
So Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I guess from a fan's perspective, hasn't lived up to it. I don't think anybody in Oklahoma City is bitching about that right now. They're up 3-2 and that's, that's, that's fine with them, man. They don't need to have the drama that we're describing if they can end up winning this in 6 or 7 games.
Well, that leads to question number 2. We headed into the series thinking this was the NBA Finals. The Knicks are just playing better than both of these teams. Yeah. It's just a fact. Now you could say it's the, the schedule they played, but it's really hard. I think you were there too, the 2014 Finals, Spurs-Miami, and the Spurs just hit that level where they just put, were playing so beautifully together. I remember being on TV back then being like, I think this series, like in game 4, like I think this is over. I think the Spurs have kind of solved Miami and I think they've gone to another level. And it was just the selflessness and everything we were watching, which you just watched for 4 games. And if I'm them, I feel like I can beat either of these teams now. Now we don't know if, okay, say if, if J Dub comes back and Mitchell and they have a full healthy team and they're gonna have all these dudes to throw at Brunson, you know, and, and try to wear him down and guard him 94 feet. I get there's some matchup stuff, but just holistically, if I'm the Knicks, I'm like, we're in a heater.
These teams are just gonna beat the crap out of each other and something magical is happening. We can actually win the Finals, which I don't think anyone other than them would've thought 2 weeks ago, right?
I mean, I go back 2 weeks ago, I probably, I mean, think about it, they haven't lost a game in a month in the playoffs. So I think, right, once they got into that Philly series and started hitting their stride and this was looking this way every night offensively, somewhere in the Philly series it started to look like, okay, damn, the Knicks, man, like they've really like closed that gap with the West. Because at one point, I don't know how long ago you'd have to go back, let's say, but for me, probably you know, March, late March, early April, where you're going, it's a foregone conclusion whoever wins the West is the NBA champion. And at that time, there was even a time when Denver was even still kind of included in that, right? But it was really— we mainly talked about the top 2 teams. And here's what I'll tell you, that narrative is now completely changed because of the way the Knicks are playing. Now, I'm not, I'm not sitting here predicting the Knicks will win. What I'm saying is now you've got a series with whoever they play. That's the kind of basketball that they're playing because it was going to take something that was going to be almost mind-blowing offensively to think that anybody coming out of the East was going to be able to operate the way you need to, to actually win a series against those two defenses.
And that's what the Knicks have reached. They— it's a— it's, it's literally a level of offensive basketball that you sit there It's so overwhelming for their opponents. You can't really even believe that you're deep into the NBA playoffs and this is happening. And it was— the switch was flipped in the middle of the Atlanta series. They haven't lost a game since. 11 straight. Saw some really interesting stat. I kind of had some people dig up for me because I was really curious. I'm looking at this team and I'm going, when have you had 5 starters at the same time playing this well in rhythm? So I looked at their— I looked at their field goal percentage as a group. The 5 starters, 53% as a group. Okay. So I went and I said, well, who else has done that? You know how far you have to go back? The only 3 group of starters that were this deep into the postseason that had a higher field goal percentage collectively amongst starters than the Knicks team this year were the '84, '85, and '86 Lakers.
Jesus. And they were layups and dunks half the time.
That's what I'm saying. That's exactly what I said. It's Magic, it's Kareem, it's Worthy. Worthy. Yeah, like, this is the— this is the team. And they did it 3 years in a row, a little bit of a notch above that. And then the Knicks, 53% for your start as a group. And it's like, it's— I mean, what, Bridges finally cooled off? I mean, I was like, okay, you know, because the numbers were getting so ridiculous. At one point he was 67 for his last 97 from the field. And a guy that shoots mostly jumpers, it gets a little bit of slashing stuff. Couple layups in transition, but a lot of it is pull-up jumpers. Couple of threes a game, doesn't go to the line ever to get rhythm. So, and he's shooting, he's like 67% for his last 97. At one point he was 72% in an 11-game stretch. Landry Shamet comes off the bench, what does he do? Let's just go 11 for 12 from the 3. 12 teams. Yeah, it was fun. We had a funny back and forth. Richard Jefferson on the broadcast said, he's like, you know, man, one guy that's made himself some money is Landry Shamet.
I said, is 92% from the 3-point line considered good? In the conference finals. Like, I don't know. So even that stuff, um, but it's the starters. That's really what we're talking about here. The flow that they have, the way they're sharing the ball. You know what that does, Bill? For, for me, it means this: you can win on the road now because balance travels. Defense travels. Their defense is playing almost as well as their offense, but their offense has a lot to do with that because it's been so good. You're taking the ball to the net all the time. Their defense is going to be better. But it's the balance. Balance travels. You don't need it from one guy on any given night. The guys are picking each other up, and it's just this machine-like performance offensively does now thrust them into the conversation of, yes, yes, it's possible the Knicks could be the champions when this is all said and done. Certainly they're worthy of going toe-to-toe with whoever they face in the NBA Finals, and I don't think anybody thought that going into the postseason. There was a worthy challenger to those teams.
Well, they have a couple things you want, right? So they have a star who can go toe to toe in the last 5 minutes of a game. They can come from behind. They don't necessarily— they're a little like OKC in this sense that they can kind of survive a bad game from anybody in their top 6 and somebody else will pick up the slack. They're getting all these fast break points that I'm not sure that's going to translate into into playing OKC or San Antonio. Probably not the same as when like James Harden and some of the Cavs are out there. Yeah. But you know, I think about like, I thought the best two teams I saw this century, and it, it's not even close, were the, were the '17 Warriors and the '01 Lakers. I, I just thought levitated above everybody. Both of those teams legitimately could have gone undefeated. And then we've seen teams that went on heaters as the playoffs went along, right? The Nuggets hit a point in '23 where it was like, Jesus, oh, it's, it's happening for these guys. There's the Spurs, 2014 is another great example. And then the '11 Mavs where these teams, 7, 8 guys, and they just, you can kind of see them figuring it out in real time.
The interesting piece with the Knicks is the math is on their side too. Like, they're like, what are they, +20 now net rating for the playoffs? I, I remember doing this before the Dallas Celtics series. Like, at some point, the math is the math. If somebody's just killing everybody for a month, you have to take that seriously. And I don't think the East was that bad either. You know, that, that Cavs team I thought was a pretty, pretty tough, well-rounded team. The Knicks were better than them, but they, by the end of that series, they were, they were tapping out like a UFC fighter, you know? And, uh, I don't know, I just, I think the Knicks can beat either of these teams. I really do. I, I would not have said that even 10 days ago, but I wouldn't have them favored, but I, I mean, it was 50-50.
Yeah, Bill, I think it would be honestly foolish for any person to say that they couldn't at this point. I mean, and I understand you could talk about the path and who they played, and I mean, I think also there was some things in the Western Conference that the path was a little bit easier than we thought it was gonna be for these teams. True. But, but listen, you look at the Knicks, there's no doubt. I mean, You know, Atlanta gave them their, their biggest test. Philly was, you know, dealing with the Embiid stuff, banged up. They were not right, not themselves. It still doesn't explain what the Knicks did to them. It doesn't explain in this series what the Knicks did to them. Now look, I don't think Cavs— Cavs, the way the Knicks are playing, Cavs aren't winning that series regardless of what happened in Game 1. You're not recovering from that. You're not recovering from that against this team the way they're playing, because that So this team comes into that game, they're already on like hyperdrive offensively, right? And now, okay man, this is a tough spot and you put 'em in.
So what do they do? They go have a 44-11 run that actually kicked their overall hyperdrive into another level for the rest of the series. So, right, because they had to find it like in that moment. I, I look, I don't have this all that's in front of me now. I had it before the game notes going into game 4 the other night when they swept, but it was like number 1 in the, in all the playoff teams in, in fast break points per game. Number 1 in 3-point shooting percentage overall. Number 1 in field goal percentage. They were 1 or 2 off— I think 1, 2 offensive rating, 1 defensive rating, and vice versa. I always kept— they kept flipping it back and forth every time they'd play a game, but top 2 either way on both ends of the floor. They were dominating points in the paint. They were number 1 in second chance points. Like every way you can get it offensively, they're getting it. And it, it's even more, even more than that, even more than the numbers, just sitting there watching them, the connection between each other. It's special. It's something special that they've got going on right now.
They have lost 2 games in the postseason in which CJ McCollum hit a last-second shot to beat them by 1 point, right? Or this team is very, very possibly could be 12-0. Instead, they're 12-2 because of CJ McCollum playing great at the beginning of the Atlanta series. Uh, but once they figured out how they wanted to play, they haven't looked back. Um, and it's another long layoff for them, you know, going to be incredibly fresh, um, when the finals start. If this thing ends up going 7, these teams are going to get Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, 3 days off. Knicks are sitting there again for close to a week and a half. Exactly, they're sitting there waiting. Now the difference is in this last series, they, they were waiting and then they— you had to come into the Garden. You know, Philly coming off of their 7-game series to Boston had to come into the Garden right away. That'll not be the case this time. The Knicks are going on the road one way or another. So it's gonna be a little bit different environment for that game 1 where you set the tone. Yeah. But regardless, I think it'd be foolish for any person to watch the Knicks right now and not say that they absolutely could envision them being NBA champions when this is all said and done.
The 2 McCollum shots reminiscent of The '01 Lakers would've gone undefeated if not for the OT game that Iverson, the stepover game. Right, right. And then the 2017 Warriors won their first 15, had a chance to go 16-0. That was KD's first year. And that, that team was incredible. And that Game 4 in Cleveland was just atrocious officiating game. And just a weird game where you just, everything felt wrong about it, but they really had it. 16-0 would've been, you know, nobody's done that. And then I look at the Knicks and it's like, yeah, they're like 2 CJ McCollum shots away from being 12-0 right now, which is a whole other level of everything. So you mentioned this earlier, but I think it's important 'cause I haven't gotten to see it in person and you're sitting there courtside watching it. Did they, they've passed all the eye test chemistry, they have the secret, unselfishness, guys pulling for each other. It seems like they check every one of those boxes. What did you see as you were sitting there?
100%. They do. The chemistry, the— what's being said to each other in, in whatever, you know, moments of adversity they've had within a game, or if they're not playing as well as they want to, the leadership that's coming in the huddles, the way that guys are respecting each other if they've got a voice. For what they want to do. Um, but the most impressive thing about it is I've watched this team now— I don't know, we— so we did 2 of the Philly-New York games, we did obviously all 4 of the Cleveland games, so that's 6. We did, uh, one of the Atlanta games. We did the game in Atlanta when they went up 61 points, so that was, yeah, pretty impressive. But so we called that game. So I've seen them now 7 times, I think, in the postseason. And the— here's what I tell you, they are not ever missing the next pass that's supposed to be made. Yeah, it's made every time. Like, every time I call a game, I mean, it's like every third trip up the floor, I'm thinking to myself, just the way my mind works, ah, ball should have gone here.
That should have been reversed. That guy's open. The ball needs to go there because it would have led to this. That roller needs to be hit on the short pocket. I don't say that at all with the Knicks. Every single time it goes where it's supposed to. Now, a lot of that is They're playing with this, this surge up the floor and you can see what it did to the Cavs. The Cavs literally just stopped running. They're just like, this is just— it was embarrassing, guys. Yeah. I mean, it really was. You know, if you think about it, Bill, they had, what was it, 25 fast break points at a half? Yeah, in a half. The record for a playoff game is 38. They had 30 at the end of the third quarter. They could have had 35 if they wanted to keep running. They could have had 45 if they ran the entire game for whatever reason. But obviously you're not going to do that in a game like that. So they didn't get to the record. But like, and it's obviously that was a lot about the Cavs and just the lack of commitment, man, to turn and sprint, run back, match up.
And they just knew they were overwhelmed. And it was— it is what it is. But it's not just them that they did it to. They did the same thing to the— at the end of the Atlanta series, they did the same thing to the Sixers. They broke— they broke 3 teams in a row. They really did. I mean, and yet that's the thing you're watching. Happen right before your eyes. You're seeing the competitive will be taken away with what they're doing now. The, the most shocking one for me by far was the Atlanta series, because that is a 3-2 series, very much up in the air, and Atlanta's at home for a Game 6. You're like, okay, you know, we might get a 7th game out of this right away in the first round. Of course, there's a lot of tension still about the Knicks and They were down 2-1 at one point and they were up 45 points in the first half. 40 in the first half. And so you're like, okay, this team has— they've got waves that they're hitting you with where every single read is perfect. Every cut is, is with intent.
Everything they're doing right now is like literally like if you're any coach at any level, man, this is what you want your team to look like offensively. Because they're, they're just, they're just doing everything on point, on time for each other. And then at the end of it, which you never know if you're gonna get, they're finishing it with shot making. Like, that's the one thing— you can play beautiful basketball and not shoot well. They're doing that too, every single game. So, and that's just what it looks like. And their defense has been just swarming because, again, teams have let go of the rope because they're getting just smashed. And so now they get careless with the ball as well. And it looks like this, you know, piranha tank and they're just grabbing the ball and going. And, and it's amazing how fast these games are just turning into an inferno for the other team where it's like not winnable in a period of 6 minutes. That's what they've been doing game after game. And that's like been the most impressive thing of all.
Well, and they have an incredible crowd. And then on the road, they're now traveling like Red Sox style with it felt like it was half the fans at that Cavs game. What was the crowd like in Game 1? Because it felt like ESPN almost had to lower the crowd mics just so we could hear the announcers. There was some fan videos that came from that game, right, where it was like 10 out of 10 deafening. Can— yeah, because I've been in situations like that with those cans on where the crowd is coming through the cans and you almost can't even hear anything. How loud was it?
Doing the open on the court, myself, Mike Breen, Richard Jefferson, about to do the open. We're standing shoulder to shoulder, and I was having a difficult time hearing Mike Breen. So fortunately, I kind of knew the question, so I just watched his lips. And when he stopped moving his lips, I started talking because I kind of knew what the question was. But yeah, it was on that level. And then it got real nervous.
In there. The game one.
Yeah, Cavs took it to him and it was like nervous energy and it didn't— at one point it like didn't feel necessarily like the Garden in a playoff game. They were waiting for a run that never came until it happened in that stretch when they, you know, he just kept getting one-on-one against Harden over and over. And it took 6 incredibly difficult shots that he got— well, I'd say 4 incredibly difficult, 2 like sort of tough 4 really tough shots, and they were determined, were staying home with 3-point shooters. Let this guy go after 6 in a row, the lead's been cut in half, and there's enough time to win the game. Now they started making decisions. Oh, do we run a guy at him? Halfway at him? What do we do? The rotations weren't good, and then Shamet hits 3s, Bridges hit a couple 3s, and the rest is history. But there was, there was a lot of nervousness in there. But I'll tell you this though, Bill, we'll say this. When Brunson started making those shots, you're still down like 18, 16, 14. It felt to me like that crowd knew right then they were gonna win that game.
Right. Because of the, because of the history with the guy. They've watched him do it 20 times. We just needed this.
We were waiting, hanging on the edge of our seat. We were so loud early, and then man, they, they jumped us in the third quarter. And it's like, wow, are we gonna lose this game? And it was a little bit of that in the third quarter. They were just waiting. Give us one like 8-0 run and we're, we're gonna be fine. And that's what he did.
He gave them that run. You know what's funny about that?
I don't believe it again.
Brady was like that. He got to that point as a QB where you could be down the whole game and you know, they'd go for it on fourth and one, the other team, and screw it up and be like, you're giving us the ball back. Oh my God, Brady's closing. You, you just kind of knew.
Yeah. No. I know.
And it feels like the Knicks are like, wow, you're letting us hang around? Brunson's gonna— do you realize what's about to happen? 'Cause he's hit that point. What do we do with him? There's, there's been very few little guards like this in the history of the league who have been able to be the guy on a team that took a team to the Finals. He's never been considered a top 5 or 6 guy in the league. He made second team All-NBA this time around. I think we all thought Incredible clutch player. Eh, could you win 4 straight playoff rounds with him? Probably not. And now he's kind of move— trying to knocking on the door of like that top 4, top 5 in the league just because of what's happening. I— is there— can you think of another player in your career, um, playing in the league, announcing, talking about it? Is there another player that you can think of who's been like him?
There's not a comparison for him for this reason. Other guys that have been smaller type guards that are your team's highest volume shot taker, leading scorer, that's a hard way to, to go about it. If you got a guy that's, you know, under 6'6", even, that's like your point guard-ish that takes all, most of the shots and like, yeah, okay, there's hasn't been— here's why he's different than those other guys. Most of those other guys lightning quick, right? And, and so they played a certain way that you're like, okay, that you can see how you can get escapability. He doesn't, he doesn't have that now. He's got a, he's got a shiftiness that he can shake you and get by you because he's got to set you up. But think about it, and I think it's a great, great, um, lesson for young players. If you're not the most necessarily the most athletic, because I would call his game a grounded game, he's got a grounded offensive game. If you're kind of one of those guys that's got that. So here's what you have to master. Footwork, balance, get strong, get in the weight room.
Footwork, balance, strength. And then the last component that you can't teach that he has is a certainty of in himself of what the result is going to be. I think Jalen Brunson is more certain in, in, especially in big spots when he goes up to release the basketball than any player in this league. He is the most certain of where that ball's going to end up. And, and that, um, is incredible because he's not going to shake you entirely. He's not blowing by you and getting it to the, the glass before anybody can react. He's not getting to an area in the floor and elevating 38, 40 inches for a mid-range pull-up or a lean back. He's not doing that. He's a grounded offensive player that you still can't stop because he uses his strength, footwork, balance, IQ. And at the end of it, he's so sure of himself. Yeah, it's, it's— that's the really, to me, the final component sets him apart. He is one of those rare players that, like, the brighter the lights, that's, that's what he's kind of been built for his entire life. Um, this is what he knows. And so he was the perfect player that the Knicks acquired.
At the time, we weren't sure, is this the perfect player? That they just acquired because you didn't really know it wasn't his team yet when he left Dallas. Now it was his team and you're like, okay, let's see what this looks like. And man, this is what it looks like. And the guys, I, by the way, shoots 46% or up, I think every single year. So he's a smaller guard that's way more efficient than most guys his size have ever been in this league.
There's a sustainability with how he does it. 'Cause this has been 4 years now and it feels like he's just getting slightly better each year. 'Cause like the one great Isaiah Thomas season with the Celtics, the, uh, second Isaiah Thomas, when he had 29 a game, he was an MVP candidate. They made the, I think they made the conference finals, but you're watching it like, man, he's gonna get hurt. He's just flying to the basket, right? And he is like this little guy going against these big dudes and over and over again felt like he was flying in the back basket support. And I always felt watching it like, Ah, there's like a shelf life with this. I don't see how you can keep playing this way. Brunson's more, almost moves more like Jokic where it's like, I, I feel like he could do this for 10 years. This is all like footwork and confidence and know-hows. So when I think about the guys, like there's nobody to compare him to, but he's got pieces of different great guys from over the years, right? Like Isaiah was the toughest guy on that Pistons team. Right.
That was the Bad Boy Pistons. He was the toughest guy, but also like in the end of games, he knew he could take over and score. I, I don't remember seeing Oscar Robertson. I was too young, but they always talked about the way he controlled the pace of a game and just slowly, painstakingly got to his spots. And that's what made him special. So there's guys, but I, to watch a 6'1" guy who can, can control a game with his footwork basically. Who's the toughest guy on his team. And then you hear Mike Brown say this week that Duncan and Curry are the only two people he's ever seen as leaders like that. And he, those are the two best leaders of the past 35 years in the league that everybody talks about. Like if you have this guy, you have a culture the entire time you're there. So you have that too. It's just, it's an all-time signing. It's one of the great free agent signings in the history of the league.
No doubt about it. I mean, they're talking, listen, I mean, there's a lot of people now in New York and you see it all the time. Online or conversations or podcasts, whatever the topic comes up, greatest Knicks of all time. He's played himself in that conversation to the point where if he wins this, he's able to win this, and he puts up the kind of typical Jalen Brunson numbers in an NBA final, and this guy averages like 30 or something in an NBA Finals, and, and they, they upset San Antonio or Oklahoma City, which I mean, it'd be as big of an upset now as it would have been. But I'm saying, you know, these are both, you know, teams that won north of 60 right? And if he's able to pull that off and also doesn't have home court advantage in doing that, and he goes in and he, you know, shoots 50% from the field and averages 30, like, and they win a title. It's— I can't even— I don't even know, like, where does he—
with 53 years of baggage.
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Where does he— where do you shoot historically if that happens? It's been 53 years, you know, 27 since they just got to the Finals, you know. So he's a special player, man. They got the right guys around him. Give, give Leon Rose and that group a lot of credit, man, for what they did and the pieces that they went out and got. Even a guy like Bridges, who he gave up a lot for, and he was getting beat up at times this year and certainly in that Atlanta series, you know, the game before this whole streak started, remember, he had no points and 4 turnovers in Game 5 of that series. I'm sorry, Game 3 of that series where they go down 2-1. Right. And it's, it's, it's completely turned around for him.
So Even, even he's, and he's figured out where to go on the court. That's the best for him, which it felt like that took 2 years.
And here's why that, that subtle change he made to their offense with Cat. And look, it's, it's his assist numbers spiked in Atlanta series. They're not, haven't been quite as high since. There's no doubt he's touching the ball more. His shots are down, his scoring is down. It's interesting, but he feels way more important because he's touching the ball 25, 30 more times a game. But, and so what that has done from a Bridges standpoint is he's really good at weak side, like getting a little brush screen and then curling and slashing through the lane and catching some of these passes from, from Towns, or doing that continued run to the other side. And then he's that guy that will catch the ball and immediately catch it, put it down for one dribble for 18-foot pull-up. His natural motion now within the spacing they have is so much more suited to him than standing around waiting and watching high ball screen 45 times a game and hoping it's going to come your way. That's not the kind of player he is. He's the kind of player now, he's moving the entire game. And that's what their offense looks like now without a lot of play calls, by the way.
It's just spacing and putting guys in the right spot at start and then make reads. And it's, it's really suited his game. So it's not a coincidence that all of a sudden he started shooting well. Not well is understatement of the century, that he's doing this. It's because it's offense now is much more suited to his skill set, and so he looks comfortable and confident. OG's been great for them, obviously. Cat, you know, Josh Hart is like the— probably the heart and soul of what they do with what he gives up every night to try to win. It's been, it's been awesome to watch him, man. They're just, um, they're just absolutely on fire. And that's the biggest question, whoever they get in the Finals, What are you going to do to slow this machine down? 'Cause that's what they've turned into offensively, their machine.
I still don't completely understand the KAT piece of it just because he's was in the 2015 draft. He's not like a 27-year-old player at this point. Right. He's been in the league for, this has been his 11th or 12th season. And it was like, this is just who he is. He's gonna get dumb fouls. There's gonna be games when, it's just gonna, he's gonna seem upset that he is not touching the ball enough. He's gonna get beaten on the glass every once in a while. He's gonna be defensive. He hasn't been any of those things. He's been like additive. He's, you know, he'll go 6 for 9, get 13 rebounds, maybe 2 turnovers. He'll have 1 dumb foul each half. But this is the most I've enjoyed watching him. And it's like basically because he's been relegated into being this awesome supporting guy, which maybe should have been his destiny all along.
I don't know. Well, I think what he's, what he's done is transformed himself by the way he's playing into now, you, you're looking at me, go, that's a winning player, that's a guy you can win 100% as your center. And, and so, and you weren't— you didn't know exactly what he was. He had a lot of talent and he was kind of multi-dimensional, a big dude that could play some power basketball but really can shoot it. But you didn't know. Here's, here's what I think the greatest testament to what I just said about how he's labeled now. This season, all year, man, like every time we saw the Knicks, saw Mike Brown, like we were asking before the game, because KAT was the number one topic of conversation in New York surrounding the Knicks because it was like up and down offensively. Sometimes just didn't seem very included. Sometimes it was less like, man, he doesn't really fit. He doesn't seem like he's even happy, like, in this offense, like, running this offense. He didn't seem happy. They changed it. They changed it midseason and then really changed it in the playoffs. Here's though what I wanted to say about him.
Despite all of that, Bill, Every night the guy rebounded. It was like death, taxes, and 13 rebounds from Karl-Anthony Towns. And so that helped them continue to win. And it's how you end possessions by securing the defensive glass. So that was there every night. And this guy is not a guy that's gobbling up soft rebounds. He's not getting, you know, 6 a game off missed free throws. He gets physical, tough rebounds in traffic where he used his body. And he has been this physical presence for them in that starting lineup defensively, even on the nights when he only gets 8, 9 shots. And that's, that's changed, I think, the way a lot of people maybe have viewed him. This guy is now like a great fit for what they're doing. And I just, I just love those kind of stories because he's a, he's a, he's a great, uh, person. Like, he's way— he cares, he's raised well, like, he's, he's polite, he's just a good dude. And it was like he had a lot of talent. You were kind of just wondering, what is his— what is his ultimate label in this league? And I think this is like now the perfect situation for him to be appreciated and admired for like what he is capable of doing.
And he's been just a big part of this. But the good thing is they don't have to get it from any one of these dudes on any given night because they're all doing it. So it could— one guy, one guy can have an off night. It's okay. Everybody else right now is in such rhythm, it doesn't matter.
Well, the other thing about when you talk about the appreciation, that's the other thing at stake for these guys. And yeah, I haven't heard— obviously everybody's been talking about the Knicks for the last couple days, but you win the title, you can see it with the guys who didn't win the title, who didn't even like really make the playoffs, that are still invited to these games and are part of the past with the Knicks. Guys like, oh yeah, Stephon Marbury. I don't think he won a playoff series. You know, Ewing obviously made the finals. Starks did. But if these guys win, Towns could be strolling back in there 35 years from now. It could be 70 years old. Oh, there's no— there's no standing ovation. Like, that's what's— that's some of the stuff that's at stake here. I mean, they're—
you kidding me? They're at— they're at the place now where, like, José Alvarado would get that treatment if they win this because he's so popular there with, like, his energy and, like, what he does. So— and I, by the way, to your point, like, I don't— I don't— I've never seen that many former players showing up at games at the same time ever in this league.
That's just not— yeah, not even the Celtics have that many.
Yeah, had to be 15 guys there the other night from like different eras and stuff. It's really cool, man. They're all kind of pretty neat vibing on this, and the city is obviously just so electric right now. Um, I don't know what that city is going to look like if they actually pull this off and win it. If this is— I don't know how you're getting out of the arena. I don't know. We— Breen fortunately knows all the tunnels and stuff, so you can like, you know, get out of there. If you have to after the game. Although he'll probably stay there and be, you know, back there, you know, with— because he's a— look, the guy's a Knicks fan, you know. He's the most unbiased broadcaster I've ever seen. When he calls Knicks games, he's every bit as enthusiastic for the other team and whatnot, but he calls Knicks games. He's a life— lifelong Knicks fan. Everybody knows that. Um, and you know, here he is with an opportunity. He's going to be calling his first Finals as the lead play-by-play guy with the Knicks in the Finals. So it's kind of a interesting dynamic to it as well.
But he's, yeah, he's obviously the best in the business. I'm lucky to be sitting next to him.
Yeah, he's been a Knicks fan since age 7. But I think, I think you geek out, the Knicks fan side of you geeks out before and after the games, right? You're doing the game, you're just doing your job. You're, it's almost like you're an airplane, you're an airplane pilot. You're just, you're moving all the levers. He's setting you guys up. You're just lost in the game. But I'm sure there's gotta be moments when he's just like, holy shit. It's the, it's the fucking finals. We made it. I'm here. We've actually, we actually have a chance to win. Jesus.
What's crazy is for, for all Knicks fans, think there's like how quickly they just dispatched of the conference.
Yeah.
Like, like that's the thing that you're going into this, you're going into this year, the 3 seed. So you're, you know, but you think you got a chance. You're like, okay, you know, Detroit unproven. They got some offensive issues. The Boston's missing, got Tatum back late, but like, They're not quite the same. We're a 3 seed, but we have a real chance. And then what happens? The 1 and 2 get taken out for you, so you don't even deal with the 1 and the 2. And now you find yourself with home court advantage and you lose Indiana, who's your nemesis.
They're not even in there to begin with.
They're dealing with stuff.
So, so, so, like, and now you go, okay, going into the playoffs, I'm sure Knick fans were thinking like hopeful but, but nervous, like you would be. Like, we don't know exactly how it's going to go. To like completely dismantling the Eastern Conference, like just such clockwork, the first round knockouts night after night. And, and here they are sitting there with all this time off, unbelievable, waiting to play whoever's coming outta the West.
You know, sometimes that's just how it goes. I even feel like the 2024 Celtics 2 years ago, I don't know if they would've beaten Denver, but we never found out 'cause Denver never made it. And the way it just lined up was like perfect for them sometimes. That's what happens. You know, like, uh, Milwaukee in 2021 where the Nets just fall apart as Dead Serious happens. Phoenix somehow ends up in the finals. Davis gets hurt and then just a couple things, couple things go your way. And that's what happens when it's a year. The Knicks have been healthy. They gelled at the perfect time and it feels like such a magical—
That's really, that's the key to it. Like, it's so rare. It's so rare for a team to, to hit perfect rhythm, their absolute peak, and beyond probably any, any reasonable expectations for what their peak was. They actually smashed through what their ceiling was. No question. This time of the year, at exactly the right time that you have to have it, and to do it now and then sustain it series after series with, you know, one more series to go. We'll see, we'll see how it goes, but they got some work to do left in the West.
Will you get to call the games? Hopefully you'll finally get a good series. Talk about getting boned over with, uh, with drama in a playoffs. Or did you, did you call one good game? So you guys are like 0 for 7. I think it's Richard's fault. I don't think you should take the blame. I think it's Richard's fault.
We did the Knicks comeback game against, against, uh, Cleveland.
Oh, that was a good— okay, so you're 1 for 7. Yeah, because we called the whole Conference Finals, so we did that. Yeah, yeah, I forgot.
So you gotta get one good one. I'm trying to think. We, oh, we did, we did a game, a Philly-Boston game when Embiid came back and they beat Boston and Embiid was great in the second half. Was that game 5?
Game 5. Yeah. I didn't really enjoy that game.
That wasn't a huge fan of that. That was a, that was a good game at least. Like it was, it was some drama to that. I'm trying to think. Maybe there was, maybe there was one more, but no, for the most part.
Well, the Brunson game was awesome. So you, you at least had one good one. Do you?
I mean, you just, you know, it was the greatest, greatest comeback under those circumstances in the history of the league. So yeah, that was, that was like, we, I was still actually the next morning I was in the hotel room in New York and I was still, I was still kind of really processing what I just watched. Yeah. Because of how, how big they were down with that amount of time to play. And what Brunson did. You know, and the beginning of that run, take a look at the first 2 or 3 shots he hit. They're incredibly difficult shots.
He hit one off the backboard that I have no idea how it didn't go flying off the backboard.
I know the one you're talking about. Yeah.
I was like, how did he even have touch on that?
The ball hit the white stripe on the top, on the very top from the right, right off the right lane. And he's shooting this way. Exactly.
I just don't know how that went in.
Yeah, I remember that. I remember when that happened live, and then I got to do the replay on that particular shot. And now as I'm talking, it's super slow-mo, high def. And so you're watching this ball, and I'm like, it just kept going up and up because the first time you saw it live, I wasn't exactly sure where it hit. I knew it was up there. And then you see the replay and it hit the white stripe on the top of the backboard from that angle and went straight through. That's when you're like, are you kidding me? That's still— they're down like 18 when he hit that. Crazy. You're like, okay, that's what it took to get down 18. How you gonna finish this off? So just, it's, it's been unreal.
Quickly on Cleveland. Yeah. They announced Atkinson in the front office is coming back today. They're set up now for a LeBron comeback that I don't think will happen, but at least on paper it could be discussed. They have to get into the luxury tax. Whatever team we just watched is not a team that's gonna win 4 straight playoff rounds. So they're gonna have to figure out How do we pay less money? How do we shift stuff? They're stuck with Harden now because they obviously made some wink wink, come to us, we'll blow up the last year of deal, we'll give you a shorter deal to save some money. What's the move? If you had to pick Mobley, Allen, or Mitchell as the move for them to reset the team and maybe try to shed some money and, and move the roster in a different direction, who, who is the guy you would look at?
The guy I'd look at to move or to keep? To move. To build around.
If you, if you had to get rid of one, what, what makes, who makes the least sense for them? Or would you cut ties with Mitchell at this point? Like what would you do?
I don't think I would cut ties with Mitchell. No. I still think, I still think when you have a guy like that, and even in this series, he, he, first of all, I don't think he was right. I think he had something going on with his groin. He was limping a little bit. Um, I think it was—
yeah, you guys were talking about that a bunch. Like, he didn't have—
he didn't have the lift sometimes. I don't think— I'm trying to think. I don't know. Did— I don't think he had a dunk in the series. Hmm. Okay, you're talking about a guy that's like— he's known— he's going to get one or two of those rim attacks a game where he takes off, right, and ties a tomahawk on somebody. He didn't really have any of it. He's— it's weird because he still had pretty good numbers for the series overall. Like, the only guy that did Um, you know why?
He was— because he was worn out from the 14 games it took to beat the two teams they were better at. That's like their fault.
I think that was a big factor, Bill. And I think, you know, it's, it's a big factor. He played every other day for like a month when he didn't have to.
You should have won those series.
And it was their own fault. Yeah, their own fault. But it still is a factor. And it— you don't know how much of a factor until you run into a fresh team like they did. Then you're like, you would— it was obvious.
So you would look at Mobley or Allen trying to, to choose between those two?
Probably Mobley. And I think I was a little bit disappointed in this series just because like he shoots decent percentage from the field. He'll have some games where he does decent rebounding numbers, but he just has stretches of games where he just, you don't notice him. Yeah. Offensively. Now we're what, he's 4 years in, he's 25 years old and you're like that, you, you just wanted that next progression. Now he's a little bit better 3-point shooter, not like probably much better. Than when he came in the league. But it's, he's not like he's out there shooting 40%. He's, he's in the mid-30s. He, he can make 'em. He made like 1 or 2, I think, in probably every game in this series. That's great. He added that. But like, it, it's just the impact and the force that you wanted to play with for the entire game. 'Cause he has a lot of talent and he hasn't really been able to, to kind of find that gear. So, maybe, maybe it would be him. I don't think it would be Mitchell.
Would you trade him for Giannis?
Oh, for sure. Okay. For sure.
Because, because of the where Mitchell is in the stage of his career and being stuck with Harden too now for 2 years. So now it's like you're giving yourself a 2-year window.
That's what I'm saying. So I don't think that it would make sense for me in certain situations with Giannis, um, depending on where it was. It does in this case. Because like that window is like now, like every year is now going forward. So that would be the immediacy that you need in a guy that's built, that can get you through, you know, deep playoff run and he's gonna play with force against any defense and all of those things. And he's won a championship. That would be probably, you know, a place that I would see. Yeah, that makes sense.
I, so if we sat in a log cabin and talked about this for 2 weeks straight, I think we would come to this conclusion. How are we gonna win 4 straight rounds if our guards are Mitchell and Harden? How are we gonna defend? There's too many good perimeter guys in the league. How are we gonna be able to defend these guys when we need both those guys on the floor and one of them at all times is gonna be exposed? And Mitchell is slightly better than Harden.
One of the things I did post-mortem on them on like a sports radio station in Cleveland, and it was, what do they need to do? Like, what's it look like assuming you're going forward with, you know, Mitchell and Harden? So they've got to get much more athletic on the wings. They've got to get tougher guys. They've got to get, you know, you maybe have to sacrifice some of the guys that can shoot for you because they didn't even shoot that in this series at all. Right. So you need to have some guys with a little bit better switchability factor, a little bit better where you have options as a coach on what matchups you want to see and guys that can run and get after the open floor and play with that aggressive force. Because you're seeing the teams that are lasting in this league. They've got some guys like that and they didn't really have a lot of that. They got the two bigs, they play well together, both talented guys, the two guards, bunch of shooters, role players for the most part beyond that. But there was an overall physical toughness that they were not bringing to the Knicks that it was so obvious.
And I mean, you saw it other times with Cleveland, but it was really exposed in that series. And so look, they've already made a decision to move forward with Kenny Atkinson. And they're gonna go from there. And now I think they gotta retool the supporting cast and probably move one of those, one of those bigs.
I mean, the flip side would be it's a 30-team league and they finish 4th. I don't know when, when you start talking yourself into that side of the narrative. I just don't think Mitchell and Harden, you could win 4 straight series with that. And I don't really love Allen and Mobley together either, so I would probably get a little more creative. All right, how you feeling about the Commanders? Decent.
Getting ready for this time of year. I always feel amazing. Favorite part, right?
Favorite part of the year. It's the greatest time of the year. Schedule comes out.
A fan of a team that has struggled that long. Yes, man. Schedule release. Although we had a tough schedule early. Schedule release. And then I'm, I'm every day I'm reading about, you know, the OTAs and I'm just reading about these guys in minicamp and who's, who's impressing. And Stiles looks amazing apparently. Um, and he's like already the leader of the defense. He's gonna be calling the plays as a rookie. Yeah. I'm like, this is all the stuff I want to hear. So really excited. But it will always come down to the health of Jayden Daniels. End of story.
I'm just excited there hasn't been a story about my Patriots in a week, so hopefully we can keep that going. Have fun.
I will. And I think the one thing we're going to get, Bill, I don't like making big predictions, but I do feel really good that I know we've had a lot of lopsided games, blowouts, maybe in the postseason. We wanted more on a given night. I think the Finals are going to be incredible. Whoever comes out of the West, I don't see that being a 5-game series with like 3 lopsided games. I just, I don't see it. The Knicks don't go away. The teams coming out of the West, they don't go away. They fight, they're talented, they're deep, they defend. I, I don't know, man. I think we could be set up for this incredibly epic NBA Finals and all the rest the Knicks get.
You know, last round, this round, like you can't sleep on that either. If this OKC San Antonio goes 7, they play Thursday, they play Saturday, they have a couple days to, and all of a sudden they're going again and the Knicks are just, you know, getting healthy, running plays, having bonding pizza nights. All right, Tim Legler, say hi to, say hi to the Rev for me. Please give me, give him a congratulations. Good to see you. We're gonna be coming back, take a break, come back with Bryant Koppelman right after this. Uber Eats makes last-minute gifting easy, whether it's Mother's Day, Father's Day, graduation, whatever. You blink, they're here. But just because it snuck up on you doesn't mean your gift has to feel like it. The Uber Eats Gift Hub has something for everyone. Flowers, perfume, champagne, even their favorite takeout order. Hmm. It can show up in as little as 25 minutes, even if you just remembered 5 minutes ago. The best part, you can add a video message and a personal note so it actually feels like you planned it all along. Order on Uber Eats today. Must be 21 or older to purchase alcohol.
Product availability varies per region. See app for details. All playoffs long, I've been looking through the slates trying to come up with some good picks from FanDuel Sportsbook to throw on my Twitter feed. Usually my favorite parlay, some, some add-ons if you want to get, uh, get a little wacky with a longer shot. So I'm definitely going to be doing something for Game 6 and probably zagging against, um, whoever lost in Game 5, zagging the other way for Game 6. 'Cause I think this series just, it just reeks of 7, but we'll see what happens. I will have that pick on Thursday morning for Game 6. When I bet, I bet with FanDuel. It's a brand I trust. Easy to build my NBA bets on FanDuel. I know I'm getting great, got great odds payouts on my parlays, boosts every day. And you get your winnings instantly on FanDuel. FanDuel, play your game. All right, my friend Brian Koppelman is here. I just want to mention he didn't want to come on, and I reminded him, you've come on so many times dating back to the ESPN days to talk about the Knicks, and it was always sad circumstances, unhappy, why did God do this to me, I don't understand, um, We talked about our friend Goldman, who passed away in the late 2010s.
Did the last Finals he saw was 1999. Missed all this. And that was what I said to you, Koppelman. I was like, you know what? You're about to make the Finals. This is the most fun Knicks team of this century by far. It's a really special team, even regardless of what happens in the Finals. And you have to come on and talk about it.
So you're here. Yeah, we made, we made the Finals. We're not about to, we made the Finals. It's very exciting. I didn't want to come on because I don't want to jinx it. I really just want to be the— I'm here as just a— I'm such a fan. Look, my first memory, because this is like you and your dad and you and your kids. My very first memory as a human being is being with my father who died 3 years ago, but being with my dad at the Knicks. I was turning 5 years old. And that's Literally the first memory I have is Madison Square Garden with my dad watching the Knicks. That's how important this team is to me. It's in the fabric of my life. It's the best thing about sports is these connect, and the worst thing is these connections we have to these teams and what they mean because of the memories we share with people. These times get you corny, get me corny, and I can't help it because I'm literally thinking of agominous— this guy named Bob, Bobby Engler, who grew up across the street from me. And he would wear Walt Frazier's number and I'd wear Earl Monroe's number and we'd play one-on-one all day and all night long as Earl and Clyde when we were little kids.
And like, we still— he's 4 years older than me, we still text each other when the Knicks are in the playoffs, like from when we were 7 and he was, you know, 10 and I was 7, he was turning 11. It's like, it matters to my college friends who I went to games with, some of whom I still am in touch with, some of whom I don't talk to that much. They're texting me, um, not because I'm a special Knick fan, but because we're all Knick fans and care so much. And, uh, so yeah, I don't want to jinx anything. I'm just so happy to be in the Finals. Every single person involved with the Knicks They've just done an incredible job. And, uh, Jalen Brunson's the truth.
So this segment is brought to you by New Era. Ironically, because this feels like a new era for Knicks fans. You think of the 2000s and the 2010s and all the crummy things that happen, and then Leon and Wes take over All-Star Weekend 2020, a month before COVID and with, with really one goal. How do we, how do we basically recreate the 2004 Pistons with Rasheed and Billups and all these dudes? How do we think outside the box and try to put a contender together if we're never gonna have, if we're never gonna luck out with the lottery? Nobody wanted to just do the lottery thing again 'cause the Knicks had done that a million times. How do we think outside the box? When did you start believing in the vision? What year? Did you think this is actually something that was going to work?
Well, in the beginning, I didn't know. Right. And you know what happened is, I mean, you were involved in part of what made me be a believer was I ended up taking a walk with Wes and we called you and you were like, this guy These guys, they mean it. And Wes, as you know, is— look, Leon's obviously a visionary with figuring out how to put this team together, but Wes is this incredible connector of people and built this belief system. Yeah. So I think Wes was going to find all these people who were lifelong Knicks fans and trying to convert them into becoming believers. But it's about—
just like, things are different now. Just trust us. Like, we get it. We have the right vision in place.
He would convey that they really cared so much about turning this around, and they kind of put their own net— they would say, judge us based on how we do. So many people in those roles want to run from responsibility. And I felt right from the beginning, that those guys were saying, no, we know what we're saying we can do and we're going to do it. But I can't— look, there's a lot of— anyone who's a sports fan of a team that has lost for a really long time or not lived up to the promises knows that it starts to feel a little bit like post-traumatic stress, and you don't— you just are so accustomed to getting, um, disappointed and, and hurt. And it is such a joy. So like, for instance, the Jalen Brunson move. Yeah. So many people want to say, oh, I knew it. I'll be honest, I had no idea that that was, uh, a smart thing until I started watching him. And by the end of the first season, it was so clear that we had a guy who was one of the smartest people in the league, one of the true leaders in the league.
I mean, a guy who is available to fans, like communicates, but his emotional range is that of like the greatest leaders in sports.
Well, did you see what Mike Brown said today?
Yeah, you told me. I mean, say it because you saw it before I saw it. Yeah.
Yeah, they asked him about Jalen Brunson as a leader, and he compared him to Steph Curry and Tim Duncan, two other guys who've been around. Now, anyone in basketball would say those have been the two best culture setter leaders that we've had basically in the last 35 years since Magic. And for him to mention those two guys as a comparison, I was like, whoa, that's, that's, that's not faint praise. That's like a real thing to say.
It's so great for something to be a positive surprise when it comes to the Knicks. You're right when you talked about 1999 and then the years of the angry Knick fan. And I know I personified that sometimes. I wrote about— I mean, for you, I wrote a lot of articles about being angry, about being happy when Spre came back and made the chokes, that signed to the owner. But I'll tell you something, this has turned me around completely. First of all, I never stopped going. I've had tickets since 1989. I had one ticket. My friend Alan Havey had the other. And Havey and I, then Havey moved to California 12 years in when I could afford both tickets. And I've had the two seats. Since, but I've had seats since '89. And so this is just an incredibly meaningful, great thing. And yeah, if this is as far as it goes, it's a win to get back to the finals. I started taking my son Sam right when he was the age I was when I started going, 4 or 5 years old. He's had some, you know, we've had long walks back. I wrote about the long walks.
Brutal run for him. Yeah. 'Cause it was basically the reverse situation of what I had with my dad. Yeah, I had my dad and we're winning titles the first year we went and we had Larry Bird. And meanwhile, oh, poor Sammy had nothing. He had that Carmelo in round 2 once and lived sanity for 3 weeks. Yeah.
He just watched all of these disappointments and he still, you know, wears a Knicks hat almost every day. And, uh, no ma— you know, he's just a diehard fan. And, um, I do think that these guys have put together An incredible squad. I mean, you think about that day that, that Jalen— I love that this clip resurfaces all the time, but you rarely see an athlete in such an open moment, even in this era, Bill, such an unguarded moment as when he found out— oh, the Josh Hart trade. Yeah, yeah. And, and almost the opposite of the way people were when the Luka thing happened and people were getting in. When he found out that, that, uh, Josh Hart was traded to the Knicks, it's almost like he knew all of this. Yeah, he started jumping up and down because he knew, oh, you put my best friend, this guy who I know exactly how to make him better. I know I can count on him. He makes me better. He's going to throw us— because Josh Hart is such— still underrated, and he's just so perfect on this team. And the whole team, I mean, even what Mitchell said the other day, right?
You got a team of guys who somehow are just hearts on their sleeves. You know, Jaylen's the only one who's kind of guarded. Even on his own podcast, he's still guarded. He's the leader. But everyone else on the team, they're the opposite of guarded. They just let you know what they're thinking and what they're feeling, and, um, they're in it. I mean, even Rick, Rick Brunson, who will like argue with somebody.
And yeah, it's, um, it's really been an incredible thing to watch and, and Well, you know, it's so hard to put together a possible championship team without one of the best 5 guys in the league. 'Cause that really, the last time that was, the last team that was able to do this was that '04 Pistons team. The Knicks have nobody, I don't think anybody who's been first team All-NBA. So like, let's say if they win 4 more, I think Jalen got no votes for first team this year. He was never, he was never gonna. I, I had a vote. He was never— it was Cade or Jalen for the last spot. Once Luka became eligible, Jalen was second team. But the Knicks were— it wasn't a disappointing season, but it wasn't like the greatest regular season either, right? It was— I think there was as many questions as answers heading into the playoffs. They were like 7-to-1 just to even win the East. I don't think a ton of people were picking them, and people really weren't sure. I, I think what was so shocking was the, the how this became this like selfless old school Bill Bradley era Knicks team over the last 11 games.
Like even watching somebody like Towns just not care about his field goal attempts anymore and just be like, I'm just here to rebound and make some good passes and not have dumb fouls.
And then makes all these incredible shots. But I think, you know, that Yeah, I think this is great.
So you say the thing about the top 5 players, you know, well, you could argue if he wins the title, he then becomes a top 5 player. But I think he is, but nobody thinks that way now.
Player in the league. But I also think what you said about leadership, maybe it's, you gotta be a top, but 'cause if he is the best leader currently, 'cause Steph, but they're out of the play. If he is currently like the best leader in a way, the team has taken on his characteristics, meaning the team, his character really. Because he is a guy who will sacrifice. He'll sacrifice his body. He'll keep getting up. He'll keep trying too, right? He— how many fourth quarters has he had after games when he hasn't necessarily shot the ball well?
And that's, that's the big thing is that I never feel like the Knicks are out of a game when they're down 15 because of him. You know, it's like, here we go. Okay. And he just fi—
he is a guy. I was, I mean, I asked you this earlier because it is a great thing, the texting, right? You and I have been texting about the Knicks since as long as we've had text, the ability to text and known each know each other over 20 years now. And even I texted you in the first Game of the Hawks series to be like, when Jalen had that opening quarter that was so incredible, you know. And it's like, this guy to me, you know, sometimes even Knicks fans will get on him and I don't understand it. And they'll say, share the ball. And I, on the one hand, it's part of that thing of feeling like all these years of being disappointed. But when I watch this kid, I don't see a guy who is selfish. I see somebody who knows his job is to take charge of the game. And whether that means take charge of it by scoring, take charge of it by making a great pass, take charge of it by taking a charge. He's just willing to do whatever it takes. And I think the other guys see that. Yeah.
And they get—
the Chargers are a big piece of that too. Yeah. He does, you know, he's not the best defender, but he is in the right places. All the time and he fights, which is really, you know, all you can ask for. The, the Brunson-centric thing, I do feel like something shifted the last 3, 4 weeks where once whatever that little wrinkle is of moving Towns away from the basket and running stuff through him, it just made them less predictable. 'Cause I felt like they had the same issues that you'll sometimes see with Luka teams. You always see with the great Harden teams that never made it. The Celtics would get like this. We could kind of predict what they're gonna do every play. And I think in a series that becomes hard because you're just doing the same thing 7 games in a row and teams get used to it. I felt like what was going on with the Knicks with now I don't really know what you're gonna do and now you're, you're running as much as possible. You're getting these fast break points that, you know, you would kind of come and go and all of a sudden it felt like this complete team overnight.
Well, whatever happened when we were down 2-1, you know, that's the only time in this playoffs got dark. I, you know, I thought we were gonna lose game 1 when we were down in this series, but I didn't think we were gonna lose the series, not even for a second. But when we were down 2-1, I really did feel like I so supported the Mike Brown move, bringing him in. It made total sense to me, but I doubted it when we were down 2-1. I was like, I don't understand how we got here. And then seeing what they did, because 2-1 felt bad, right? It felt like the past in a way. And that was the one moment that I wavered. And in the whole thing, in the last 4 years, that's the one moment. Because once they brought Jalen in, I thought Wes and Leon have just proven it. They put this squad together. They know I'm in their hands. But down to one, I became just like all the commentators who take shots at them. And I wish I would've had more faith in that moment, but that was the moment when I was like, what is this?
And then though, seeing what happened in the next game and the next game, I was like, right, don't ever fucking doubt this guy and this squad. We may not win Wembley. You know, you got the two— I mean, a lot of people would say the two best players in the NBA. A lot of people already saying Wemby's gonna go down as the best player in the history of the NBA. And it does seem hard, but I have the faith, man. I just totally— I'm full Thug McGraw. You gotta believe.
And now it's time for Era Comp, brought to you by New Era, the official cap of the NBA. We know today's players are incredible. We know they shape A lot of the styles of the players who watch this today, they shape the game we are watching today. The New Era NBA Hardwood Classics collection celebrates those iconic moments and the players who made them unforgettable. So we'll put eras side by side, 2000s and now. I was thinking two, two good ones for this. One is Stephon Castle, who I feel like you could have just easily thrown into the Pacers-Pistons 2003-2004 bloodbath series that they had, and he could have played for either team and given you like some of what Steven Jackson was giving you in that series, or a little Tayshaun Prince. But just, I felt like he just would've been happy in that series. But the big comp, let's go Wemby and Yao. I feel like Yao has just been completely forgotten. Only played 8 seasons. His body broke down as it went along. But there was a moment with Yao when we started to wonder, you know, could this guy take over the league someday?
I, I think he got, I think he got up to probably 25 and 10 at one point. But he was 7'6". He didn't move like Wemby does. He was a pure center, but had that same kind of overpowering, holy crap, how is anybody gonna defend this guy when he was close to the basket? And unlike Wemby, was just carrying so much more weight. It was harder for him to move up and down when you saw him in person. It was just, it was like, man, I don't know how long this one's gonna last. And that's the difference with Wemby. When you watch Wemby in person, even though he's an alien and he's 7'7", the way he moves is just different. Like it doesn't, it just seems there's an athleticism to him. There's a grace to him. He carries his weight the right way. Doesn't seem like he's carrying too much weight, but I thought Yeah, there was a moment there when it really seemed like it would have been shocking if Yao didn't win a title. Anyway, relive vintage logos and timeless icons with the New Era NBA Hardwood Classics collection, available in a wide range of silhouettes including the iconic fitted 5950 or adjustables like the 940 A-Frame and 970, and some great Hardwood Classics apparel too.
Here's what you have to do: visit neweracap.com www.settledown.com/ringer to shop now, and you can use one-time code RINGER for 20% off your first order. I want to pour some Settle Down juice on everyone who says Brunson, if they win the title, is the best Knick ever, because that's a classic recency bias thing and, and really does a disservice to— just go, go read up on Walt Frazier for like 5 minutes. Um, but with that said, I do think he has a chance to be the most beloved Nick ever, right? Which is an interesting conversation right there with Clyde.
Clyde is still so beloved.
I gotta be honest, the— that mid-'80s Bernard, even though it was a blip, was—
but I think, as you know, that's my favorite Nick of all time.
But I think he's in the conversation. I just don't think it lasted long enough. But to me, it's like Clyde Bernard, and then Willis because of coming out and dragging his leg around in Game 7. But I think Brunson making the Finals, he's a— he— people are at least allowed to have the conversation now.
Bernard King, uh, April 27th, 1984, my 18th birthday. Bernard, uh, against the Pistons when Isiah had one of the great games ever, one of the best playoff games ever. But Bernard had a better game and we won in 5. And it was one of the greatest. If you go, that game's available, go watch that game and you'll understand what Bernard King was able to do. That said, you are right. Right now, the most beloved Knicks are those guys. Jeremy Lin is one of the most beloved Knicks. He really is. But for me, and I mean, I'm 60 years old now. I turned 60 this year. I love Jeremy Lin for what he gave us for those 3 weeks. But yeah, Jalen Brunson, that's the, that's, that's the top guy.
I feel bad for— he hit the final stage in the Game 1 Cleveland game where they're down 22 and there's 7 and a half minutes left and it's a wrap. You shouldn't be watching. And normally sometimes when we'll do the pod, when we have to go live, I'll text whoever the guest is and our producers, I'll be like, hey, let's go with 3 minutes. Like this game's gonna be done. Did not, as I mentioned that night, did not send the text. 'Cause it's like, gotta at least see what happens here with the Knicks. What was interesting about it is how the crowd, everyone was locked in kind of waiting to see if it would unfold over the next couple minutes like it did with Brunson. My son, Sam, they were down 18 and they were recognizing what was happening. And that's like the final level of being really, really great in those situations.
Sam never lost, lost the faith. I did. I didn't think we were coming back. Really? It was really an incredible, I didn't think so. Against James Harden? Well, that's a good point. Oh, can you explain this to me? But Sam never lost faith, not for one second. Um, which I was very proud of him that he didn't lose faith. Uh, what do you make of Harden just saying, I still think we're the better team?
I don't know what to say when, when people say after a sweep, when you say that, that, uh, almost feels like an IQ test. You can't, you can say it if it's a 4-3. And even if it's a 4-2 and you completely blew 3 of the 4, but if you get swept and you roll over in a game 4 to the point that the announcers at halftime, Barkett was just clowning them at halftime. Like you can't say you were a better team.
No. What a, I mean, I watched every second of that game last night and watching them just not even, I don't wanna say not care because they're professional athletes. I'm sure they did care, but just they kept getting beat down court over and over again on those rebounds. That felt like one of those games when you play in high high school when the other team was so much better coached than you? Yeah. And that you would just be looking behind like, how did that guy get down there again? You know? Right. I mean, I remember those. I can remember playing in those kind of games and just feeling like totally they were completely outmanned and outclassed.
It was a wrap. But yeah, it was a weird one.
This feels like Jalen Brunson. I'm trying to find the, the sports analog for this guy. He has just the greatest characteristics of So many, he's almost like, he's almost like a, the way Brad Gilbert would constantly win and he was 4 in the world and no one could believe he was 4 in the world in tennis, but he just would like get to, I mean, he was, there was a time Brad Gilbert was the 4th, number 4 player in the world. And that may be where, where this guy, this guy finds himself.
Yeah. I remember when you pitched us a 30-episode Brad Gilbert narrative podcast. We had to turn it down.
I still think we should, I think I'm so fascinated by Brad Gilbert. Well, I just want you to co-host. And I remember you said you could only do every other episode. And then I said, well, Mallory do the other ones. And you were like, I don't know if I can lend her for that. And then that blew up the whole thing, which was a draft.
Here's the thing with Brunson, and I think you need this when you have the amount of baggage that a team like the Knicks have, right? You, you almost need some sort of supernatural human being event to make people who are prone just not to believe anymore to switch, flip their minds, right?
For the Red Sox.
It was Ortiz. It was Ortiz in '04. Just the slow realization over the course of those 4 Yankee comeback games that we had Ortiz and like that there was something magical about this guy Brunson. Now whether he can keep this going for the Finals, we'll see. But Brunson at least has done that for the Knicks fans where they're not thinking about what's the worst case scenario. Because the thing we didn't talk about was that Halliburton game a year ago. Where it's like all the skeletons come out of the poltergeist pool in that game. It's like, wait, I thought we were past this. Oh yeah, we haven't won since '73. I was there.
I mean, yeah, yeah, uh, that was just brutal. Um, that series almost crushed me. But the, but the truth is, and that's obviously why Tibbs is gone, and that, but that didn't, um that didn't actually dim my enthusiasm for this team. Every move these guys— like, I was upset when they traded Dante because I thought the three guys together was so important, like, to have the core from Villanova. And who— but they were right. Like, they're just right. Leon and Wes are just right a lot. And that is such an odd thing to think about, but it's people running this team.
It's not that odd. And I wonder like if I'm an owner, if I was an owner for a losing team, I would have meetings trying to figure out, okay, here are the 4 teams, the 3 teams, the 2 teams that succeeded this year. Why? What are the reasons? And if I'm looking at the Knicks and I'm thinking like, well, how did they put this team together? Because they hired guys who were like relationships guys. They were guys that in the other business they had, which were, you know, they're basically player agents, representatives. And they're targeting people from age 15, 16, 17, 18. They're making bets on people. They're trying to— they're not just looking at talent, they're looking at how somebody behaves, what their background was, you know, how— what their work ethic is, how competitive they are. Because ultimately they're betting on those guys as representatives because they're getting a 10% cut of everything they make, right? Of course. So you're betting on— you want to bet on like the safest competitive talents. And that, it's not really much different than putting together a team. So I, if I was an owner, I would be like, who are the other agents we can get?
Who, who else sees the world like this? And because they could potentially put together a group of people like this.
Well, they really had skin in the game. And I'll, one other thing about Wes, because you said the thing about, look, Leon's not going to talk to the press, don't worry about it. But one of the other things Right. But one of the things Wes does do is he walks around the garden. Wes is a visible presence, and not in the— I'm shadowing, I'm lingering over the bench to put pressure. No, the other thing where he walks around like, yeah, we have it all on the line. He shows himself. So many people hide in the front office and in the back, and the second halftime comes, they duck into the Wes is like out there, not just down in the front row. Like, he walks around the ring in between and talks to people, and people shout at him, and he engages with people. And I do think— and that may be from being an agent too, right? Being in with people, being comfortable with people, knowing how to make deals. But it does instill a sense of, oh, these guys have something on the line here. Like, yeah, they're saying something about what they're doing.
So they put the pieces together, but it's almost like, but they also have advantages of they've known Brunson forever because of the relationship with their dad. They've known Towns since he was 15 years old. Anunoby was the CAA guy. Like, they have real opinions on these guys because they have a whole background. Whereas like, if you're just a typical GM and you're looking at it more like the way you and I would look at it, like Zach Levine, what's he about? And we're just like on his basketball reference broke the right way.
Like, okay, Anunoby, as you know, his injury. But Anunoby, from the moment he came here, he was so great anytime he was playing in the Garden. I don't know how much you felt it in the Garden.
The Garden loves—
they love him. We love that guy as a fan, as fans in the Garden. But other things like Bridges showing up with that completely changed jumper last year and everyone being kind of freaked out, but almost like when Tiger changed his swing. It's like, don't worry, at the right time it's going to peak. And then like, oh, because it was— the jumper was ugly and he missed so much, but he knew what he was doing because like, think about how it's paying off now. So it's almost like everything that's happened, these guys really just all know what they're doing. And it's very humbling. It's the thing you wish some of the commentators would understand. Like sometimes these experts, Sometimes they do know something like the people in the game. And I don't want to call out a certain self-identified big New York Knicks fan who's on ESPN always saying a lot of bullshit about the Knicks, but it seems like these people do know what they're doing and Jalen Brunson is the real thing and we're in the championship.
Can't believe it. I'm happy for you and Sammy and the whole Koppelman family. I'm also excited that I'm one of the 15 pods you've been on this month. Thanks for fitting me in the rotation.
I hadn't done a pod in like 2 years, and then Cody Rhodes asked me to do a podcast. Yeah. And as you know, his dad, second favorite wrestler of all time. And I love Cody. Got to do that. Got to do the pod. And then once I did it, another friend asked. But listen to me, Bill Simmons. It's always who put me in the podcast game to start.
Wait, I have one last thing before— much to the show. I don't wanna— I'm not saying goodbye yet. You got it now. You have a new Vegas show. Yes, guys, there was all this stuff written about it last week.
We start shooting and you and Levine are back in Vegas. We are back in Vegas.
Everybody in America wants to know what part I'm playing. They've been— it's been everywhere I go, people are asking me. I heard about The Boys have a new show in Vegas. Are you just gonna have a cameo? Is it gonna be like You're playing a blackjack dealer. Are you gonna play yourself? Like, what, what? So I don't know, I'm in your hands.
I mean, let's figure it out. What do you think? Do you wanna, you wanna put on a pork pie hat and be your, uh, a gambler down on his luck? You wanna be a dealer who's, uh, taking satisfaction in someone losing?
Can I be like a struggling actor who used to be famous but got a gambling problem and now I'm just kind of, I don't know, I'm, I'm open for anything.
Yeah, you know what we'll do? We'll put that version on the Ocho and then— right, we'll put it on the Ocho and then, yeah, you can totally, you can totally do that.
Rounders, Tilt, The Ill-Fated Tilt, Ocean's 13. This is the fourth one now in the whole gambling universe, although there was some dabbling in, in Billions.
Um, yeah, there was some poker in Billions, but the cast, the cast in this thing, we haven't announced all the cast, but Oscar Isaac, Alec Baldwin, David Costabile, Betty Gilpin, and there's—
David Costabile, your old guy.
Yeah, gotta have— gotta— would never go into battle without Costie. But, um, the cast is incredible.
Oscar is gonna crush it in this, in this part. And, um, Damon cameo, can you get him? I mean, let's— like, it's just a slip by. I feel like this kills Rounders 2, but I'm fine with it.
Everybody says, you know what, I'll call you, you conference in, Matt. And we'll take it from there.
All right. Well, I'm happy for everything that's going on with you. Say hi to all your Knicks fan friends. I know this has been a long journey. I'm just happy you're happy.
In honor of William— well, like you said, I wasn't going to do it because I didn't want to jinx anything. I didn't want it. But here's the thing. You were right. You said two things. You said, one, I should celebrate being in the championship series and— and having a lovable Knicks team, but also in honor of William Goldman, who you loved and I love too. And when you said that he had 99 and that's the last time he saw him in the championship series. And so I just shout out maybe the greatest screenwriter who ever lived, the great William Goldman, and a wonderful man and one of the great Knicks fans of all time. He's watching over us. Right up there with Spike Lee. He's watching over this.
Thanks, Koppelman. Thanks, man.
Talk to you soon. Bye.
All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Tim Legler. Thanks to my friend Brian Koppelman. Congrats to all the Knicks fans out there. Here's the schedule for me. I'm coming back live on Thursday night after Game 6. You can watch it on Netflix or you can listen to it slash watch it whenever you want on Spotify. Um, and if there's a Game 7, we will be going live on Saturday night for Game 7, OKC-San Antonio. So that is the schedule. Don't forget, new rewatchables went up: Animal House, and we have 2001: A Space Odyssey coming, uh, next week, either Sunday or Monday, depending on what happens with Game 7. I will see you later in the week. Must be 21+ in President's Select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino, or 18+ in President's DC, Kentucky, or Wyoming. Game problem? Call 1-800-GAMBLER or 1-800-MY-RESET. Call 888-797-7777 or visit ccpg.org/chat in Connecticut. Or mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope Is Here. Visit gamblinghelplineMA.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24/7 support in Massachusetts, or call 877-8-HOPE-NY or text HOPE-NY in New York. For Louisiana, call 877-770-7867.
The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Tim Legler LIVE on Netflix to react to the Thunder taking a 3-2 series lead against the Spurs before recapping the Knicks’ road to the NBA Finals (1:16). Then, Brian Koppelman hops on to discuss what it means for the Knicks to make the Finals for the first time since 1999 after sweeping the Cavs (01:09:22).
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: Tim Legler and Brian Koppelman
Producers: Chia Hao Tat, Eduardo Ocampo, and Chris Wohlers
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