Transcript of OKC Gets Wobbled, Cleveland’s Done, and Knicks Nirvana Is Here (Maybe) With Zach Lowe and Sean Fennessey New

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Wow, classic.

Really good. A lot of great lines. Had a great time. So that's coming. You can watch all those movies on Netflix. All right, we're coming off Oklahoma City-San Antonio Game 4. I love Game 4s. Game 4s are always great. Game 4s are always like, you bet, 3 games of feeling each other out and then Game 4 is the awesome game. Not today. That did not happen.

But there's a certain buzz, there's a certain buzz for Game 4s because if it's a 2, forget the 3-0 Game 4s like we're gonna see tomorrow, the 2-1 Game 4s, it's the fork in the road game. It's either this is gonna be an epic potential 7-gamer or 3-1 and it's gonna have to be a crazy comeback to get it to 7 now, or at least We're looking— I just— I'm just— cancel your Saturday plans now because I— wouldn't you be surprised at this point if we go like— it doesn't feel like one of these teams is going to take the next 2 games consecutively.

Counter.

Okay.

Are we getting Jalen Williams the rest of the way here? And if we don't get him and we don't get AJ Mitchell, the thing that jumped out tonight was just all of a sudden OKC had one creator. And San Antonio, you knew they were gonna guard Shade differently tonight. I think that was the easiest prediction to make. Basically like, knock yourself out. We're gonna guard the hell outta you. If you get 35, great. We're not letting these other guys get, get good shots. We're not letting them get going, which is what they did. But you could really feel the lack of a second creator in this game. So you lose Jalen Mitchell, I mean Jalen Williams, but then you also don't have AJ Mitchell either. Now all of it goes on McCain, who stunk tonight. And I, I, you know, in the fourth quarter, Aaron Wiggins, Aaron Wiggins was running offense for them. It was just weird. All of a sudden they felt depleted.

Well, the whole fourth quarter was kind of a, a slow motion give up by the Thunder. I mean, I know Chet came back in the game, but SGA did it. But yeah, I mean, there, there are game fours where you feel like, uh-oh, did one team solve the other team? Even if it's a 2-2 series with, did one, the poster series for that is the 2015 Finals when the Warriors went small. And played the death lineup and everyone was like, uh-oh, is this, is this just a wrap? Even though it's 2-2 and we should feel tense about it. I, I'm not like, I agree with you that something happened tonight that gave me a glimmer of that sensation. And it was the combination of softening the double teams on Shay to the point that we're just not doubling you high on the floor. If you get to within 14 feet, we'll start darting guys at you, stunting guys at you, maybe a hard double here and there. But it's gonna come late and it's gonna come suddenly and it's not gonna come every time and it's gonna be a much more confusing defense for you to pick apart.

'Cause they were picking apart the traps and the combination of that. Plus to your point, the lack of your second and third best creators to play off of, to throw the ball to. And it felt like, huh? And I spent the second half of the game trying to think like, if I now know this is coming, and I don't have Jalen Williams and AJ Mitchell, what is, what is adjusting to this look like? Like Shay can get by anybody off the dribble and get into the 18-foot range, but what does life look like after that? How am I recreating the open threes and the good shots that we got if they're not just throwing guys at me? And I, I don't, I, I don't know the, I, I'm, I'm workshopping some answers, but I don't have any good ones yet.

Well, and you didn't even mention they're also losing all the transition stuff.

Stuff.

They're losing the fast break stuff 'cause he's the only guy that really felt good hands. It was not a good, not a good night for the Kayson Wallace, I'm worth $30 million a year agent strategy. Listen, game 3, I thought Shay in game 2, and I didn't get to do anything after game 3. I just thought Shay was just so good in those 2 games and just picking them apart and the way he was using his teammates. It was about as good as you can play the guard position, right? So they knew they couldn't, do whatever they did defensively again. It was notable, like his stats— Toriko mentioned that near the end of the game— his stats aren't that good in this series for how well it seemed like he played those two games. Like, I think he's under 40% for the series now. I mean, Wemby was the best part in the four, which now makes two games where he was the best part in the four, and we're at 2-2, which is kind of where we thought we were gonna be anyway. So I look at it like, game two, I didn't love the officiating.

I thought it really affected the game. Game 4 was the other way. I thought the officiating affected the game for, uh, in San Antonio's favor. Dort and Caruso— Dort had 4 fouls in 9 minutes. Caruso had 4 fouls in 12 minutes. And it's just like they weren't allowed to have the same physicality that they've had in some of these other games. There was big free throw advantages for San Antonio. That was one thing. Wemby had a superstar game. And then I thought Castle, the two-way game he played and the stuff he was doing defensively, I just thought he was awesome tonight. Castle had flat out awesome, the loudest 13-point, 6-assist game like possible.

I think. Yeah. And all, none of the guards, Harper 7 points in 21 minutes, Fox 12 points in 31 minutes, Castle 13 in 30. It doesn't like jump off the page that any of them played great. I thought Fox looked pretty good with the ankle stuff and Harper had a couple of explosive plays that are pretty encouraging for how he's feeling. But just the presence of them, 12 turnovers for the Spurs.

That's a thing.

That's a winning recipe.

Yeah.

And just a calm to the offense. And on the other side, I, the Thunder finished with 33 threes attempted, but they only had 11 at halftime. And I thought that number would really stood out is like, they're just not creating open shots against this defense right now.

And Wemby, he wasn't just 1 for 11 for 3 for them, by the way.

Yeah. He wasn't just the best player. In the game for the second time in the series. He was the best player by a mile in the, in a game for the second time in the series. And like, that's also kind of alarming for the Oklahoma City Thunder that he's the best player by that much in half the series.

Now, did you think the half-court shot was going in? 'Cause I did. So I was like, that's going in.

I don't know why. I knew it was going in.

I sound like LeBron. I'm like, I knew when he took it, I knew it was going in, but it really was like, hey, he's gonna make this.

I knew it was going in, but I only knew because I was about 2 minutes behind in the game and our text thread blew up and y'all ruined it for me. Like my friend ruined Tyron Taylor's 3-run tying home run against the Yankees last week by texting me before I had seen it. So I knew, I knew, I, I, I knew it was just a bunch of wows. So I knew something was gonna happen. And then obviously that was it.

I want to talk about Wemby in one second. You mentioned something about the guards, how none of the box scores were spectacular. But to me, the turnovers was the big thing because that's what killed them, you know, in, especially in Game 2. But Fox, even though Fox wasn't amazing, at least he can take care of the ball. That allows Castle to be more of a two-way, like, freelancer guy. And I just felt like their team seemed like their team tonight. It was the team that we watched all year. Now there's some weird stuff happening. We see this happen in a series where you just start losing guys you can trust as the series goes along. I no longer think Champagny shots are going in. I, I no longer think Keldon Johnson shots are going in. So those are two, two pretty big guys for them during the season that now feel like they're in like a major, major funk. And I, I'm wondering like, if we get to like a Game 6, Game 7, like really like these 7 minutes are gonna determine our season. It feels like it's gonna be the 3 guards with Vassell and Wemby will be the lineup that It's kind of like, this is it.

These are our best 5. What is it for OKC? Like, if we don't have Jaylen Williams again, I assume Caruso's out there with SGA and probably Chet. But what, like, is it just a feel for the game or do you even feel like they have a best 5 at this point?

I think it's a feel for the game and it starts with, do we feel better with 2 bigs, 1 big? If it's 2, is it Hardenstein? Hardenstein rather, and Chet, who were -28 I think coming into this game. But you know, Hardenstein was carrying the offense early on with like one ridiculously high floor. That was unbelievable. Just one of the great stretches of random shot making in recent playoff history.

He led them in shots tonight, I think.

No, Shay caught him at the end.

Oh, did Shay catch him?

Yeah, he, he was tied for second with Aaron Wiggins. Not a great, just not a great statistical indicator for the Thunder. So which two big guys do you want or is it just one big guy? And then if it's one big guy, you're really like, you're scraping the end of your perimeter fill-out guys that we really trust with, you know, Kayson Wallace would probably be in there with Caruso and then like Dort has done pretty much nothing this series except foul and miss threes. And yeah, we, the other guys are injured, you know?

Yeah. If he's just gonna foul and miss threes, at least like get some cheap shots in and try to change the tenor of the series, whatever he's doing. Has not worked. They played, uh, 11 guys plus Topic at the end. So they put 11 guys for real during the flow of the game, but also didn't have J Dub and also didn't have AJ Mitchell. This Thunder team is so bizarre to watch in the playoffs. There's been all these cool stats about all the lineups they use, and it's almost like watching a hockey team. And then she's, he's constantly mixing and matching. But sometimes I wonder, like, at some point as a playoff series goes along, I need to figure out who my 5 are, who my 6 are, who my 7 are. It's just like Wiggins, like Wiggins hasn't played really all playoffs and tonight it felt like they actually needed him. So I don't know, it's, this has been a weird one because I felt like after each game I became convinced that the team that won was in great shape. And then it just flips, which I guess is the point of a 7-game series.

But now I, I honestly think San Antonio has the advantage though.

I, I have no idea. I'm gonna wait. If, if those two guys are out the whole series, Mitchell and J Dub, and the, the Spurs injured guards can play at this level, then I agree with you. San Antonio, despite having only one home game left, has probably an edge in the series because of what we saw tonight. And, and I think the Thunder's best 5 the lineup I've been waiting to see, and I think they've been waiting to use, well, 2 of the 5 are, are not playing right now. And it would, the lineup would've been Shay Mitchell, Caruso, J Dub, Chet. And I think that's the best 5 that they can put out. It did not play much in the regular season. It got unleashed early in the series and it just, as soon as we saw it, it's gone. And certainly the lack of any clarity on timetables for either guy has me a little concerned right at this moment, late at night on whatever night this is. But maybe we'll get an encouraging update tomorrow. I don't know.

The Mitchell one seems more concerning because calf strain is just automatic. You're out for at least a week, right?

We don't—

if they, if they'd given it the, you know, when you're reading the, uh, the injury stuff, like the mild calf strain, calf tweak, that kind of— this was like calf strain. So calf strain to me means 7 to 10 days, which probably takes him out. And he didn't look right even before he got hurt. You could tell like there was something up. The, the J Dub thing, I have no idea. This has been the longest hamstring injury, I think, in league history. It feels like this is just— his body has not been healthy. What did they say? He's finished 2, 2 playoff games or something out of the 3 rounds.

Well, and it's, it's weird because when he comes back, he looks good. Like, it's not like he's like, he's an induity. He looks 70%. He looks like pretty pretty close to all-NBA J Dub, and it does change their team. You're reminded like, oh, having a giant wing who can do all of these different things on both ends of the floor, super valuable. And then it just, he just can't kick it. And it might be one of these things that just requires a little bit more sustained off time to, to just disappear or work itself out. And obviously they don't have the luxury of that right now.

They're -250. To win the series, Oklahoma City, which I just completely disagree with.

That's, that's updated now.

That's on Fanduel. Yeah. Minus 250. Wow. I do not agree with that. 'Cause I thought Harper, Harper looked back to me tonight. He had that one dunk in traffic where he exploded. Like he seems okay. Fox, you could tell is, you know, 75, 80% speed, but is still able to be a point guard and run the offense and all that stuff. I have an important question for you. Okay. Who do you think the rest of the league is rooting for in this series? Like both competitively and like long-term big picture?

I think, I think both of these teams are looked upon as, oh boy, we gotta deal with this for the next however many years. And there would almost be, the easy answer is the people are rooting for the Spurs, right? Because of all the officiating stuff and the Thunder get away with fouls and the flopper. Like they're just straight up hitting Shay with the flopper chant in San Antonio, which very good performance by the Spurs fans all around. I agree. Like you gotta be, if you're gonna chant like that, you just gotta get right to the point and be as mean as possible. And it's a one-word chant and it, and it does the job. But I will say there, there even, even though OKC is the correct answer for like who teams are rooting against, I guess the rest of the league is rooting against. There would also be like a, woo, Victor's already here. Like, if they win, there's like a, they're already in the finals. Like, that seems, that seems fast. Oh my God. But I think, I think OKC is the answer.

You know who's rooting for OKC to lose? The Milwaukee Bucks.

Oh boy, we're going there. We're going right there. She's veering right in there.

Just becomes a quick Giannis panic trade team right away.

Do you think that That is something I, I, I'm not ready to, I'm not ready to contemplate it yet. I'm just, I'm just not. I mean, it's, it's totally against their playbook and we go through all of this. They won the championship last year. Here they are 2-2 in the Western Conference Finals against another 60-plus-win team and it's already like, well, if they lose 2 outta the next 3 games, we gotta upend everything. I know the salary stuff, I know the consolidation. I got it. Like we're already going there. I maybe we, I don't know, maybe.

Here's why we're going there. Yeah.

Okay.

Here's why.

I'll go for a drive. Let's go for a drive.

No, here's why. This is it. If I'm, if I'm OKC and I lose this series to a Spurs team that's this young and isn't even close to being the team they are yet, and Wemby is the difference, and I just have no answers for him, what do I do if I'm OKC the rest of the decade? Do I just be like, ah, we had some bad luck, or, or do I look at it differently and go, okay, almost like how Minnesota, when Tim Conley went there, was like, I have to build a team to beat the Joker. And I think the question for OKC would be, we thought we were going to dominate the decade. That's not going to happen. How do we construct the kind of team that can beat a generational freak? And do we have the right team right now? Was that, was that just a weird two weeks, or do we have the wrong roster to beat this guy? And that's where you have to think about Giannis.

I think you better know the answer to that question is we just don't have the right roster with 1000% certainty. If after all the success you've had, you are willing to throw the, the throw, not throw it away, but mix it up to that extent based on the result of a few games. And that extent is gonna be, but minimum one of J Dub and Chet and a bunch of picks and role players and everything you've got. It's the last big move. You've got for a 31-year-old who has not gotten through a playoffs healthy in quite some time. You just, you just gotta be sure, like, yep, he broke us. We like, we gotta try something now 'cause we'll never beat him again. You gotta really be sure.

And I agree with that. They're gonna be that sure. But, but here's the, here's the wrinkle. Hartenstein, I think it's a team option for next year, right? For a lot of money combined with that, they're gonna have 3 max guys. And they have the Dort team option and they have the Kayson Wallace extension thing coming. This was their best, like, roster, the way all the money work, chance to compete against a Wemby team. And if they're going to lose already with, and the money is about to go up when they have all these picks, when they have the 12th pick in place, I just feel like you have to look at it holistically and be like, okay, this is it's reset time. Like, because the other thing they could do is just bring back Hartenstein at that, at that price. If they, they, if they don't pick it up, he's going to go to Fredenstein. He'll get $20+ million from, I think, a bunch of different teams. There's teams that have cap space and trade exceptions and all kinds of things. Like, I promise you the Celtics would be in on that with the giant trade exception they have.

So it's just, it's a weird one and it's a weird spot to be if you're OKC. We're like, wow, I thought we were going to dominate the last 5 years. Now it's 2-2. What do I do? Flip side, San Antonio's fine. Like, win or lose this series, they're like, whatever. Like, we're, we're happy to be here. Yeah, we could probably tweak around it. We'll figure out in February. They're not there. There'll be no panic at all. Okay. See, I'd have to wonder if they panic a little. First of all, he does not panic.

Well done. Thank you for mentioning the last thing because I was good. I had two editorial comments for you on after that. Number one, really good job bringing up the Celtics even though they haven't played in three weeks. I mean, contractually I had to. Do you want to do a deep have on Vucevic and his market and whether any cap space teams want him.

We know his market. It's called the, it's called the veteran minimum.

And this, I was going to say before you, I was gonna say I have to, we have to strike a deal now.

Yeah.

I mean, I won't even be your guest on the next podcast cuz that's not how this works. But the deal was gonna be if the Thunder win game 5 and go up 3-2, you are not allowed to go through Spurs packages for Giannis. You're not allowed to do it. You're banned from, we can't react that way. To one Spurs loss. Is that a— can we make that deal? Or are you going to go off the— on that one?

What about, what about Trey Murphy?

Fine, that's fine. That's reasonable. That, that's, that's allowed.

I will allow. Can we all agree Giannis and Wemby just is too weird and probably doesn't make any sense whatsoever?

But weird is what you're going for, right? Like weird is what the Jazz are going for. Weird is what you have to go for if you think this is the insurmountable alien mountain that we just can't climb and, and like we gotta try something different. That's different. Those two guys together on defense, even though Hannes isn't the same guy he has been defensively as a help defender around the rim. Those two guys together, it's something. I don't know what it is on offense, but it's something.

What do you think happened to Wemby on Game 3? In Game 3, now that we just saw Game 4, what was he tired with? Did they just have a bad strategy? I thought it was really weird watching in real time. I know you talked a little bit about it last night, but I didn't understand the, stand the strategy at all. I didn't understand why he was so far away from the basket. I didn't understand why they weren't playing with pace. He seemed a little sluggish to me, and it was really making me wonder, did that double OT game, was that just a huge tax for both teams? But especially with him having played that many minutes, then he looked fine tonight. So, you know, two, two days later you throw it out the window. But what do you think happened to him in Game 3? Was it pressure? Was it too much adrenaline? Did OKC do something? Like, what was your, what was your take on that?

I mean, without being in his head, I assume there is a little bit of all the, like, unquantifiable stuff you're talking about, right? Fatigue. You know, this is a guy whose minutes have been pretty monitored throughout his career, and now it's just balls to the wall. You gotta play 49 minutes in Game 1, whatever it was. Pressure, home, playoff debut, Thunder, Chet, the whole thing. But I also think it took them some time to adjust to after 6, what, 5 regular season games and then the Game 1 of The Thunder pretty much exclusively guarding him one way. Then they go scrap everything, all of that, and guard him another way with big guys with the single-minded goal of we're not letting you get lobs at the rim and offensive rebounds. We are gonna take your shot selection and shove it outside. And he, that, A, they executed well. B, I think their initial reaction was the Spurs were a little back on their heels and Victor was a little bit back on his heels and he kind of like went along with that. And tonight it was gonna be like both he and the guards, and I thought Castle set him up on a couple early pick and rolls really well.

There was just not gonna be any denying that he's going to the basket, even if it's not all the way there. I'm just gonna take one little dribble and reach and it's gonna be a hook shot. Or he tried to throw the ball off the backboard to himself two times. Yeah. Like it was just, he was just not going to settle. Look, his first three shots were still jumpers. He took a fair amount of jumpers in the game, but there was just a different, mentality and aggression level to his game. And I think that's just, I think that's just feeling out an elite defense who threw a monkey wrench into your plans halfway through, you know, the, the series or whatever.

I agree with that. I think there's one other piece. It seemed like they were really trying to attack and get to the basket and get in the paint and get to the rim. I don't, I haven't seen the, we tape right after these games end, but I would guess the stats for them in the paint were a little bit different. In this game and it, it felt like they were like, just let's attack, throw the ball near the rim for Wemby. Let's just like go downhill a little bit more. 'Cause that game 3 was just weird to watch them. It always felt like they were either going backwards or sideways and never like going, going toward the rim. The Chet piece though, he made All-NBA today.

Yeah. What, what's, what's our collective level of remorse for Jalen Duren over Scottie Barnes at this, at this point after the playoffs?

For me, zero. I'm not taking any shit for that. I'm voting centers every year for each team. And until, as long as I have a vote, I'm not changing because we decided to make this like Little League where everybody gets a participation trophy to be in an All-NBA team. I'm not throwing away 75 years of history because they stupidly decided to change the rules. I want a center or somebody who can resemble a center. I want each of my teams to kind of look like a basketball team.

Okay, I don't want to detour down Jalen Dern.

No, I'm just saying, but it's a regular season award. I have no regrets.

Now let's talk about Chet.

I thought he was a little better than this, and maybe he's in a funk, but I really was more of a believer than what I'm seeing. And I don't mean to do the, you know, the morning TV show shit. Homegirl's got to step up. Like, I'm not doing that. I just honestly thought he would have more of an impact than I'm From watching him this season, I really thought he had rounded into, you know, dead-eye 3-point shooter. Just really, really severely impactful defender. Just elevates your team in all these different ways. And it feels like Wemby's in his head. Like, I don't even like his body language. The only other time I remember his body language like this was in the Indiana series. I felt like you could feel him sliding a little bit a couple times in that series where the pressure, you could just kind of see it. He was carrying it. But I thought he shed that and now it feels like Wemby's in his head. Now in his defense, Wemby's a 7'7 alien who came out of a UFO. So I, I get it. I'm just saying, I, I honestly just thought he would play better than this.

I, I think we're gonna do some sort of pressure list.

Yeah, we'll do that after the break.

Yeah. But I mean, not to spoil one of my potential picks depending on draft order, Chet Holmgren has 45 points in 4 games. In this series. He took 1-3 tonight despite the fact that the Spurs are playing a good chunk of each of these games in like a hybrid zone defense where someone is going to be open from 3. And yeah, the guy closing out to you in the corner is going to be the Alien, and I get it. And we're going to hear a lot of like, well, this just isn't a Chet series. This just isn't a Chet series. The matchup's tough for him.

That's not acceptable. This is the team they have to beat for the next 10 years.

Exactly what I'm going to say. This is exactly what I was going to say. At some point you reach a stature where every series has to be your series. And Chet is at that now. Defensively, he's infallible. The guy's amazing. He's gonna bring that every game. He just has, like, there was just one, there was one play tonight where they're guarding him with wings the whole game, right? That's just what they're doing for the most part. And he just sort of faced up and burrowed his way to like the dotted line against Devin Vassell. Drew some help and kicked out to Kayson Wallace for the only 3 that Kayson Wallace made in the game. It's like, well, I mean, like, what? We can't get a little bit— when you're— when Shai's game is off, when the whole offense is clogged up, you can't do— like, we can't get a little more of that? I, I know he's— we do this with Mobley too, right? Like, he's not gonna put his head down and post up and get us 25 like any big man, but like, 45 points in 4 games, it just is not enough.

I mean, especially when you're starting to lose scores on your team game by game. It was I just think it's been a weird series. All right, we're gonna take a break and we're gonna come back and we're gonna do pressure rankings for what might end up being an awesome 7-game series right after this. Let's do the pressure rankings then. Let's go.

I'm coming, I'm coming back like Devin Vassell hitting a trail 3 on the delayed, delayed break.

I like that I'm criticizing Chet, then I screwed up the break that I didn't have going into the thing. At least I didn't do something like pick my nose.

Well, go, well, yeah, they, that was dangerous times. Do you wanna pick first? It's your show.

Well, you pick first and you just took, I assume, Chet's your first pick or you want somebody else?

No, I, I would want somebody else, but I did just do a Chet thing, so we'll pretend that's my first pick. I will.

No, I'll pick first. Yeah, I'll take Chet first.

Okay.

I think Chet has the most pressure and the biggest spotlight on him now as we head into the rest of this series of where is it? He just, especially on the heels of the All-NBA thing. I need to feel you more in this series, Chet Holmgren. You know, we talked about this with Evan Mobley too, and I do feel like, I know they're down 3-nothing, but I do feel like Evan Mobley went up like a half level as the playoffs went along. And I just felt like defensively, I put it this way, the position they're in is not Evan Mobley's fault, I don't think. And I thought he rose to the occasion. I would like to see that from Chet. So what would be your first pick for the pressure ranking?

Thanks.

Well, I'll just steal your thunder and go straight to the top. Shay has had an okay series. Oh, he's shooting 39% through 4 games. Yeah. And less than 30% on threes. He's, his turnovers are up. He had 4 turnovers tonight and a bunch of them are the same kind of like, I'm just gonna kind of bulldoze my way into traffic and oh my God, all these guards are awesome defensively. I just fell over and I don't have the ball anymore. Turnovers. And I look, I get it. It's Victor Wembanyama, right? They're, they're the Spurs have the one guy who can fuck up all the shit you're trying to do, all the stuff that works against every other team.

Yeah.

And you get into the lane, you get into all your sweet spots and all of a sudden it's, it's, it's, there's a guy right behind you messing with your airspace back there. And this guy over here, he's just gonna have to problem solve his way out of this and, and have, if they're gonna win this series, win 2 of the next 3 games and J Dub's gonna be out and Mitchell's gonna be out and we don't know, but let's just say I think he's gonna have to have 2 efficient games. They're not gonna be like the crazy 16 of 23, oh my God, this is the best guard we've seen since Michael Jordan or whatever you wanna say. But like 10 of 20, 11 of 22. I just think he's gonna have to dig his way out of this and problem solve it. Especially if we, like we talked about before, if the Spurs aren't gonna kind of half give him the answers by trapping him at half court with his, where his decision tree becomes a little easier. You know, look, we were talking about a guy who's a, a two-time MVP now, back-to-back Finals MVP last year.

We've talked all season about all the historical stuff that he's on the precipice of. Well, this is the precipice. The precipice is digging out of this series. And I'm not saying he's got pressure on him, like I'm gonna think differently of him if they lose this series, or he's been a flopping fraud the whole time or anything like that. But it's just like, This is it. This is the moment where if the all-time greats find a way to dig out of, of whatever Victor Wembanyama is doing to you.

I like how you frame that. And if he has a chance to be an all-time great, it's moments like this when you don't have the same team that you started the playoffs with and you're playing a ferocious opponent. Like the best example ever of this is Jordan in the '98 playoffs.

I was gonna make the same comp.

Yeah, Scottie's back goes out. Rodman's doing whatever, he's getting drunk every off day, he's going to Vegas, and Jordan just is like, all right, and just, you know, but that's the greatest basketball player we've ever had. There's been other good examples, like my favorite Bird season was '87 when McHale had the foot, Parish had an ankle, DJ had an ankle, Bill Walton couldn't play, and Bird just kept kind of throwing people on his back. Feels like we're there with SGA. I think one thing there's One of the narratives from coming out of this game into Game 5 will be the officiating and that OKC got hosed on calls and their fan base, and I don't blame them, their fan base is gonna say, you guys complain about us that we get all the calls, we get to foul, we flop. Well, we didn't get any calls in Game 4 and, um, and SGA got banged around by Castle and they didn't call it, but Wemby got banged around and they called it. And, and, uh, we want more fair treatment for MVP. So that'll be a whole narrative the next 2 days. With that said, I'm just not really that afraid of leaving some of the guys open that were out there, right?

Like, I'm okay with Wallace wide open. I'm okay with Lou Dort. Caruso is the Josh Hart of this team. It's like you're gonna live with it until he makes a couple. You know, they had Williams was out, Kenrick Williams was out there at one point hitting corner threes, but I just don't know who I trust on that team. Isaiah Joe seems like their instant 3 guy, but they don't seem to go in that often anymore. And then Wiggins would be the other one. But, um, I just think they're gonna guard him the same way they did tonight and he's gonna have to be awesome. Well, if you're doing, if you're doing same game parlays, like the SGA points with the OKC win would be the reliable one, I think, for Game 5.

I think those Kenrich Williams corner 3s are really interesting plays to go back and rewatch because The Spurs found a bit of a roadmap tonight. And look, the roadmap is having Victor Wembenyama, but this roadmap was, you, Shay, you pick your matchup at the top of the arc, like 35 feet away. You want to run a screen and roll and get Champagny on you or Vassell on you or someone you feel a little more comfortable with, Fox, than you do Harper, Castle. Fine, we'll give you the switch. You're gonna beat that guy off the dribble. Cool. Like beat him off the dribble.

Take your two.

We're not gonna double you. We're not even take your 2. Because if you beat a guy off the dribble one-on-one, it's not like that guy disappears. He's gonna be right on your hip at the Caden Shea plays. And then you're gonna get to 16 feet. And when you get to 16 feet, a couple things are gonna happen. Thing number 1 is the alien is gonna be in your airspace a little bit. Thing number 2 is there might not be a double team, but you're gonna see the guy on your right and the guy on your left kind of on their toes, half stunting, getting you in your field of vision, right? Messing with, messing with your mind. And those reads, those moments, I, I don't know what the answer is when you're in that kind of sandwich of like 4 guys all around you and one of them Victor Wembanyama.

Yeah.

And you haven't been given a trap 30 feet from the rim, which just unleashes the pass, pass, pass threes they've gotten. But that's where those Kenrich Williams threes in the right corner came out of is, is that moment just like that. And maybe the answer is the Thunder are just gonna have to play all their shooters and hope that they make enough of those threes that they get San Antonio out of that. 'Cause I don't know what Shai's supposed to do in that airspace or how to get him in a different airspace against that defense. Like there was that one floater he took where you could see him thinking like, I, I'm Shai Gilgeous-Alexander, I gotta get something in this space. And it was just this moonball, one-handed right-handed moonball that had no shot at going in. And it was like, yeah, you don't see a player of his skillset look that like unleash a shot that like is a no-chancer from 13 feet away.

Jalen Williams, not the injured one, the center, 1 for 7 from 3 tonight. McCain was 0 for 5. Isaiah Joe was 2 for 7. Dort was 0 for 1.

Caruso took one shot, I think, right?

Chet was 0 for 1. Yeah. Caruso, a little one too many greatest role players ever segments for him on podcasts and TV shows last 2 days. The gods had to like, had to like ding him with the, with the hammer. But those shots I thought for the most part were pretty open and they just didn't make 'em when you, they missed 31 of their first 35 threes, right?

Dort has 15 points in the whole series. And I know we're not going to him for, I think he has 2 threes and I know we're not going to him for points. Like that's not what he does. But the Thunder, when they're rolling and when they won the championship, there's just a lot of Lou Dort 2-for-5, 3-for-7 kind of games where he just makes just enough to make it hurt. And he has 2 in 4 games.

That's somebody that I don't feel like will be in the Thunder next year. Team option. They've gotta put money somewhere. It's a different conversation. All right, my next pressure pick. You know, you just took the best guy in OKC.

I was gonna say, I've left you with not much to, to do here.

Yeah, it's, it really has to be Wemby. And the, and normally I would say, ah, he's 22 and he's playing with house money at this point. He's, this is, this playoffs have already been a massive win for him. But A, they have a chance to win the title. B, we saw him get a little spooked in game 3, I felt like, or whatever was going on with him. So it's not like he's, We know he's human because if he wasn't human, he would just be rolling through the league every game. But I wonder, as we get closer and closer to the end of this and the spotlight gets bigger, his tendency is the hotter the spotlight, the better he plays. So we'll see. But, um, it just feels like if he has a game like he had in Game 1, or even a game like he had tonight, then I feel like they're going to win this series with the injuries on OKC's side. Kind of up to him. What's your next one?

Yeah, if he, if he's the best guy by a significant margin, obviously that's a, that's a big one. I, I was gonna cheat and just go the collective of Fox, Harper, Castle, and only because the guard crew, the guard crew, only because keeping the turnovers down is the single best way to get yourself into a game against the Thunder. And they did that tonight and it's been a little up and down throughout the series because two of those guys have not, have played limited minutes in a couple games and Castle's been overtaxed, but If, if like, I mean, you would want to single out Fox because he's the, the vet, the experienced guy, but I just think the three of them together have to have a very clean game, two more very clean games.

Yeah, I would've taken Castle with my next pick for just because of some of the stuff I talked about on my pod on Thursday about the Westbrook 2008 to 2016 that side where he's just, you love everything he does, but there's, there's a couple times he gets a little out of control, a little sloppy. Now that Fox is there, it feels like that goes away. My next guy would be McCain because if they don't have Mitchell and they don't have Jaylen Williams, and I thought he, I, he just didn't have it tonight. He was terrible. And this was after a weekend of everybody shitting on Darryl and oh my God, and I can't believe they traded him. So where'd you stand on that trade when it happened?

I was surprised. I was certainly surprised that it was the way Philadelphia chose to save money. I was, I just, I wouldn't give up a player that had showed me what he showed in all, albeit 20 whatever games as a rookie. I was kicking myself for not anticipating the Thunder being the team to overpay and get him. It was just such a perfect trade and such a perfect fit. He's sort of like their, super duper version of Isaiah Joe. Not, not, not the shooter that he is, but someone who with a lot more ball handling juice and kind of moxie to his game. I understood, I understood why the Sixers did it.

Yeah.

And that they got more return than they were gonna get ever trading Jared McCain. 'Cause he was not playing for their team, which is also their fault. But, and that he was trapped behind those two guards who were gonna be their franchise mainstays. But I don't know. It seemed like an unnecessary gamble to me.

Yeah. So he wasn't playing for them, and I think the, the case was that his stock was only going to get worse and you're cashing in on these picks that are easier for trade. We've heard the arguments. My, the question remains to me is why wasn't he playing more? It's not like he was on the '86 Celtics and Maxie was playing 40 minutes a game and Edgecomb was playing like 39. So even if you say, well, he's behind those guys, it's like, well, so what? You still have 96 guard minutes per game. You still have an 82-game season plus playoffs with, you know, injuries and all the wear and tear of a season. Like, why wouldn't you want to have 3 good guards? And I, it's just, it felt like Nurse probably, probably quit on him a little bit and it was only gonna get worse. And it's like, whoa, if we get to the offseason, we won't even be able to get a first for him. But I, I just, it was a weird one cuz he did so well last year as a rookie. You know, it's not, it's not like it's, oh, this, it wasn't like a Cam Reddish thing.

It's like, oh, he's got so much potential. He was so good in high school. Like Jared McCain was good last year before he got hurt. So, so weird traded. And I get it that they wanted the assets, but wouldn't it be suspicious to you if OKC was like, we love Jared McCain, here are a bunch of picks for him. That would be a fucking red flag. It's like, maybe we should keep this guy. Presti really wants him. Like, like, should we be reevaluating this? Yeah.

You wonder if Sam Presti's like, yeah, you know, he's probably not gonna be in our rotation, but it's a nice flyer for us. Hey, look, we have all these extra picks. Yeah.

Let's just take some of our picks. We'll take 'em off your hands.

And here he is in the rotation. But to your point, 3-point shooting is kind of cooled off. Even in his big game in, in game 3, it was mostly 2s. Yeah. And he took a ton of shots, which is fine. They needed, guys to take a ton of shots. It's a good pick. That's because if it's not those two guys, the J Dub and AJ, then it's gotta be, it's someone among this group is gonna have to give you 18 to 22 points. Like it's just, it's okay. Well, Kayson Wallace was 5 of 8 from 3. It's gonna have to be one of those guys.

What do you have for your next pick? Do you have anybody left?

Well, look, I mean, I don't know if we haven't taken a coach. Well, I mean, one coach just won the championship. A year ago and the other coach is a, you know, was a former interim, now permanent fill-in for one of the greatest coaches of all time. And this team won 60-whatever games. I don't, you know, I don't think there's any, I don't think any seats are getting hot. I'll go, I'll go like, this is gonna be near and dear to your heart. I don't know if the nuns can go to every game, but I just, I just, it's not his fault. It's not his fault. But Luke Kornet minus 9 in 13 minutes. I will just put him in as the sim— the symbol of even in this blowout game.

Yeah.

It, the non-Wemby minutes are just, are, it's be, it's Yokochi now where it's just like, I don't know what the best lineup combination is. Do we throw all the guards out there? But I'll put him in as the unfair standalone symbol of those minutes.

I thought Cornette was okay today.

He was good. This was his best game of the series, I think.

I'm going with the, uh, the two ladies who, uh, their bodies from the neck down were just on camera behind Mitch Johnson. And there's been— there was some commotion about them on the internets heading into the game. Yeah, this wasn't the first time. Um, and, uh, and I think it's going to become a talking point. I think people are going to be looking forward to Game 6, certain types of people on the internets that enjoy these things. But it was certainly, um It was certainly interesting every time they cut to Mitch Johnson, what was going on behind him.

So you're saying they're, they're under pressure.

They're under pressure. Yeah. 'Cause now people are expecting it for game 6. Like if the Spurs are up 3-2. Yeah.

Did you see, I, I know you're a fan of watching, we can, we like, I, with the, with the way we watch games, we see the in arena entertainment sometimes during the commercial breaks. Did you see Mark Henry's appearance tonight?

I did not.

Well, I mean, if you want to talk about someone who's under pressure, I would nominate Rumble, Rumble the Bison. The Thunder mascot was at this game in San Antonio, and in one— unless I took acid and hallucinated it— in one of the, the commercial breaks, they had Mark Henry come out from the stands, and I was like, I don't know, like, what's Mark Henry doing here? What's gonna happen? And he chair-shotted Rumble the Bison and, and then kicked him a little bit on the ground while the Spurs Coyote, like freaking Jimmy Hart with the megaphone, was like jumping around taunting Rumble the Bison. So my question for Rumble the Bison is, why'd you agree to this? Why are you at this game?

Yeah, you're losing to Mark Henry.

You didn't, you didn't think like, oh, the Spurs are being so nice inviting me to the game. My mascot friend must really love me. You didn't think the setup was in play? And how are you gonna respond? Is the Coyote getting an invite? Is the Coyote getting kidnapped? Like, how are you gonna respond to this? You can't just let this stand.

Maybe they're doing a home and home. Is that possible? Maybe they— now he has to go to OKC. I had a couple, couple side note things, and then I wanna ask you who you think's gonna win Game 5. So there's a lot of role player Caruso, where he stands in the role role player all-time rankings, all that stuff. You see the best role player of the 2020s, best role player of the century. Reggie Miller in the pregame show was talking about how important role players are and then proceeded to list multiple guys who weren't role players, who were actually just really good players who were like borderline All-NBA guys.

I didn't—

he was going backwards and he was like, 2024, Derrick White. And then, and it was like, ah, Derrick White's not a role player. I just, There's a specific type of role player Mount Rushmore that I think we have to discuss. And the first person who has to be mentioned anytime the conversation happens is Robert Horry. I just want to say that as a PSA to everybody who likes basketball, everybody has a platform. Robert Horry has to be the first person you mention. It can't be Alex Caruso. It can't be Derek Fisher. It has to be Robert Horry. Won 7 titles. This was— I put him in my pyramid of my basketball book. He's the only role player that made it because he had so many big moments that I wrote this thing about, and I was like, if I told you the Robert Horry game is on ESPN Classic, you wouldn't know what game I was talking about.

Is he on the Spurs?

He's in the first 7 games. Yeah.

Is he on the Lakers?

Give me the team and I'll try to guess what game it is. So Robert Horry has to be first, and he's the perfect example of a role player where he doesn't matter if he's getting his stats. He always has a knack for getting better when it matters. He's always doing the dirty work, and that's to me, a definition. Derek White's like a star. Like, he's a really good player. Iguodala is an interesting one. We're on Golden State. Golden State Iguodala became a role player, like an overqualified role player, right? I think the 4 best are Horry, Iguodala, and took Caruso. And I'm— and I want to have the Caruso combo really quickly. Horry, Warriors Iguodala, um, Derek Fisher, And Michael Cooper. Now I'm not, this is my lifetime, so I'm not doing Casey Jones, Satch Sanders, people like that. But I think those are the four. And then apologies to Bobby Jones, who I think was better than a role player. I actually think he was like a notch above. Mario Elliott is definitely there.

Oh, Danny Ainge.

I don't know where to put him.

Kiss of death, Mario. Mario Elliott is one of my all-time favorite role players.

He's in there. And then And then Caruso. But does Caruso crack the top 4 for you, like post-merger? 'Cause he's got the title on the Lakers. He's got the title with OKC. He has a chance to win another one. If you get 3, like, you're really in a different conversation now.

You know who has 3 with 3 different teams is Danny Green. Um, also a very good one. Danny Green's another different vintage.

Yeah. I'm gonna add him, add him to the list. That's a great one.

I think we need parameters to your point about Derek White and even Andre Iguodala. Derek White received All-NBA votes just today. They came, the, the balloting came out. He received a few third team All-NBA votes. I, I don't know if a role player can receive All-NBA votes and Iguodala is an All-Star. Like I, I did do, are we allowing All-Stars like one-time, two-time All-Stars? Drew Holiday, is he a role player or we do, or we gotta throw them out?

Well, so I guess the question is if you're one of your best four players on your team, are you a role player?

I think the 4th best player could be in, in a lot of cases, a quote unquote role player.

I think it has to be 5 through 9.

Okay. That's fine. I'm fine with that. I'm just saying like Iguodala was a 20-point scorer and an All-Star. I believe he made an All-Star team in his early one, maybe in his Sixers era. Maybe I'm wrong.

Draymond Green's another one, not a role player. Like don't put him in this. It has to be like a Mero, LA, the team could win with or without the person. They could probably survive, but the person is the cherry on the sundae. You know, who's your favorite random role player ever? I mean, who's your guy who just never, who never really landed on the right team? Josh Hart, by the way, is another role player Mount Rushmore potentially, but he hasn't won a title.

But he's, that's a good one. Yeah, he's, he's right at the point though. Is he too good for role player status? I don't know.

He's not a top 4 guy on his team. But is there a guy that you were like, man, if, if he had only just landed on the right team?

All right, I'm gonna just throw 3 names at you just so you know. I have no preparation. You're just—

I know I didn't prep you at all.

Um, Trevor Ariza.

Uh, uh, well, Trevor Ariza won one though. He gets one for '09, so he gets to at least be in this little club.

Okay.

SNL Five-Timers Club. You get the jacket at least. He might—

he had better years than this because of the teams he was on, but I just had the softest of soft spots for Alphonso Ellis.

Oh, interesting.

I like that one. Same era, same team. I just like late '90s me was like, man, these teams should be trying to get Voshon Leonard on their team. He's like just, he's just a random, like a Mario Elliott kind of guy.

Tough.

Like he, you know, the Heat got him at one point. I just, for some reason I just loved Voshon Leonard. This just, again, random names.

I have one that never gets mentioned anymore and should. Is James Posey.

Oh yeah.

2 out of 3 years won the title doing awesome role player stuff. There's other versions of it, right? There's the Eddie House type. I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that fits for this. Fisher was an amazing one. Fisher had just one of the most bizarre careers ever, was just in a million. I think he's like 2nd or 3rd most playoff games ever was on all of these different teams. Even when OKC, he was basically a dead body on OKC, you know, 'cause he is like, well, it's still Derek Fisher. Maybe he still has it and they were still rolling with him. Okay.

Well, can I, can I throw another name? We're in name some guys territory.

Yeah.

Did, did Nick Batum ascend beyond this at, at his Portland prime?

Never won the— yeah, well he's, he's a classic. Never. Did he even make a finals?

I don't think so.

All right.

Well, we named some guys. That was fun. Vashon Leonard. Shout out Vashon Leonard. Oh, Tayshaun Prince is a fantastic—

counts, right?

Oh my God, he counts.

Yes.

Okay, great. Uh, who do you have winning Game 5?

I picked Thunder in 7. I'll pick the Thunder win Game 5. I don't, I don't— you, you— I— someone asked me this. I was at the Knicks game the other day, Game 2, and people are like, oh, do you think he's gonna win? Who do you think's gonna win? I'm like, let me just, let's just go through what's happened in the last 2 weeks. Cleveland with a chance to close out the Pistons at home in Game 6, gets their asses kicked by a million points. And it's like, oh, the Pistons have all the momentum, they're going home for Game 7, they lose by 30 points. Like the individual games, I don't know, I'm just gonna say the Thunder cuz I picked the Thunder. But I, I will say something in my, you know what, no, forget it. Spurs, Spurs figured something out tonight and the Thunder are rattled. I'm gonna go Spurs. I think sticking with Thunder in 7 though. I'm sticking with Thunder in 7.

I think Spurs, I could, I would lean toward them game 5 because of the injuries. I don't think it'll mean they win the series. That's where I would land. Um, okay. I think it's, we're almost time to bring Sean Fennessy in to talk about the Knicks. But before, as we, as we, as Sean warms up in the bullpen here, What are you, on a scale of 1 to 10, what are you prepared for with Cleveland in the offseason if they get swept?

I mean, everything, anything. I mean, I don't—

do they have one person you'd be like, no way they're trading that dude? No.

Do you?

So if they brought me in as a conciliatory Okay. I would, Mobley would be my one keeper. I'd want another year with him. I liked how he played in the playoffs and I, I just feel like I hang nothing on him. And if I'm giving up Mobley, I have to get somebody awesome back. I'm not trading Mobley for Giannis. That's an absurd trade. There's no way they should do that. It's crazy. 'Cause last year I suggested that would be the trade.

All the Bucs fans got mad at me. Why is it absurd?

I just wouldn't do it. I don't think Giannis is changing the destiny of the Cavs winning the title. I don't think that was their issue. Their issue was that they have a, a backcourt of Donovan Mitchell and James Harden who can't guard any guards.

Well, I, I, I'm not, I was just playing devil's advocate because the argument for it, which you can find people who would make, I, I, I, I would be very hesitant to do it too and probably not. 'Cause then I've just made myself in two deals, I've made myself so much older all of a sudden. Yeah. But I do, I do now have an interesting two-year, three-year window with Donovan Mitchell. And Giannis, that's interesting. But I don't know that I've seen enough from this team to be like, well, we're, you know, we're so close.

If Brooklyn called and said, we'll give you the 6th pick and our 2029 first for Mitchell, we'll just take him off your hands. I would do it.

No way.

No way for who?

You're doing that as Cleveland?

Yeah.

I mean, look, you like—

I'm not even blinking.

You like all those guys at 6th, 2029 first. I'm assuming Brooklyn is, I mean, Look, all the pick values are going to change and I save $50 million and all the luxury tax stuff.

And do I think Mitchell is going to be on my team 2 years from now? Is he going to stay? I'm doing that.

Well, okay, so you gave your future, you gave your consigliere self knowledge of Donovan Mitchell's plans that I personally don't have. And he said all the right things about Cleveland and wanted to stay in Cleveland. He signed extensions there before. But there is an interesting conversation to be had of like, is with all these guys really, like, is the next contract gonna be worth it?

I'm resetting. I made a run at it. It didn't happen. I have a chance to get an All-NBA guy in this draft. I keep Mobley. I reset, I reset my tax. I lick my wounds and I get ready to make another run at it with a younger team.

I would—

is where I would land.

I would love to still have Darius Garland. In that scenario, but alas.

Yeah.

Uh, I do not.

But alas, you know who we do have is Sean Fennessy. Oh boy.

Yes. What's up?

So I owed Sean Fennessy this appearance because we've known each other for 14 years. I've made 100 million Knicks jokes. He's also come on my pod many times after sad Knicks events. I feel like almost exclusively, almost every time you've come on, something terrible has happened with the Knicks. They've had a bad loss. They've done a dumb trade. Now everything's flipped. So you have the floor. Just tell us how it feels.

Not today, Bill. It's Memorial Day weekend. I've been drinking. I'm feeling really good right now, man. We did it.

I feel like I want to go get a glass of wine and come back and just really, really savor this.

Well, you know, it's funny.

The last time I was on was the last bad moment I've had as a fan of this team. It's amazing. I came on after, what was it, game 3 of that Hawks series and I, we could not have been more low. 2 brutal 1-point losses. And look at us now. We're flying, Bill.

10 in a row. Some interesting stats, Zach, with this 10 in a row and the point differential and stuff about teams. Like if they pull off the sweep tomorrow of teams that have only lost twice heading into a finals. Some pretty interesting teams on the list. I, to me, I thought whoever won this West Series was winning the title. And now you see the attrition on both sides in this West Series. I don't even know who's going to be playing next week, whereas the Knicks are going to be nice and rested and it's just feeling pretty magical. I don't know, Zach, where's your head at with this Knicks thing? You talked about it a little last night.

I said it after the Phillies series. They can win the championship. You know, I think the Spurs is a coin flip. I think full strength Thunder is, I think I said like 25, 30% chance the Knicks could win. Obviously the Thunder aren't at full strength. I, I think this is a legitimately really good team that has found whatever they needed to find and are in this zone now that I don't think they're coming out of it. I don't think there's a crisis around the corner where all of a sudden they lose their rhythm or, you know, Towns all of a sudden wants more shots or whatever it is that would disrupt their rhythm. I don't, I don't think that's coming. I think this is the team and this is the level of play we're gonna see going forward. And I think they're just a strange, they're a strange team. Like Brunson is a strange guy to game plan for. Towns at the 5 is, is a really interesting tough look to deal with. And when they put Shamet in, it's really tough to deal with. They're just, they're an unusual team that plays at an unusual cadence.

And I, I think they're gonna sustain this level of play.

I think they can win.

I said after the Philly series, they can win. This is not, this is not, you know, I was at Game 1 Knicks-Cavs and it was the day after Game 1 Spurs-Thunder and there was like some snickering going around about some, from some of the people, you know, some of the league figures, agents, et cetera, in attendance, not people with the teams saying, yeah, that was a nice win by the Knicks. You had a nice comeback, but like the real finals is happening over there. And I was like, I don't think that's true. I just don't think that's true anymore. I think they can win.

Sean's head's gonna explode.

I, I, I've been turning this over in my head obviously a lot, and I was just in Europe for 10 days and like watching games at 2 o'clock in the morning and trying to wrap my head around what was really going on here. And I was afraid to come back to the United States, to be totally honest. I was nervous that if I came back, things would go awry. And then I just watched yesterday's game at, in normal Pacific time and everything again, just They just seemed different. And I, I remember watching them in February and Bill, we probably were texting about it back then when they just seemed not together. It was unclear what Towns' role really was on the team. He was doing the same dumb defensive lapses and stupid fouling that he's been doing for the first decade of his career. And things came together near the end of the season. They started playing better in the last 10 or 15 games of the year. They did win the NBA Cup. It's not like they did win 50 games again. Yeah. And you know, it's not like they weren't, consistently good this year.

But, you know, I think also some things broke right for them in the playoffs. I think it's nice that the Celtics had to play an incredibly inspired Sixers team who were desperate to beat the Celtics. The Pistons, I think, were paper tiger all season, but they also did not particularly have answers for the two teams that they played. And I gotta give it up to Mike Brown, man. I don't know how much you guys have been talking about it, but he's done stuff with this team that Tibbs was not doing. And it was controversial, especially in New York, whether or not Tibbs should have been fired. And it's a huge freaking relief to me that he was, even though I think he's responsible for rebuilding this franchise in a lot of ways, because Mike Brown is flexible, man, and he plays the bench. And the bench has been a huge part of this run. The fact that they're so deep. I remember I was talking to CR before the Sixers series and he was like, well, you guys aren't deep. And I was like, That's wrong. Like this, this team routinely plays 8 guys, sometimes 9 guys in playoff games.

And look, I don't know if you guys have been watching Landry Shamet for the last 3 weeks, but he, he looks like an elite bench player in the NBA.

Yeah.

It's, it's been amazing.

Yeah. Kyrie completely quit on him and when he was on Brooklyn, I remember feeling like he was on his way outta the league. I was looking, so this has been a 10-game odyssey to get to the point they got to yesterday. I was so impressed by how they played yesterday. And you look at the box score, And it's like if you were just drawing on a map what the ultimate Knicks box score would look like, Brunson had 30, OG Bridges had 23 and 21. Bridges was 11 for 15 and you felt him the whole game, right? He was just, he was either running the floor or he was running in little open spaces in the half court. He was just, you felt him. Whereas like most of the season it felt like he was just in the corner with his hand up or not doing anything. Towns was 13, 8, and 7 with 0 turnovers. Hart was 12, 9, and 5 with 4 steals, and Shamet had 14 off the bench. They were 11 for 28 from threes. They shot 55%, and they had actual ball movement. He's looking at it, it's like, this, these 6 guys make sense together.

And then you throw in McBride and Mitch, now you have 8. But it was watching this, I was like, it felt a little 2004 range Pistons to me. Which is interesting because I think that was the model for how they built this team. Like, it was Leon Rose and Worldwide Wes. Wes was a huge Pistons guy. Like, he was a Detroit guy. And that, and that model of like just bringing in competitive veterans, guys like hitting the right points of their careers, guys who are gonna sacrifice. And you go through the moves they made, like the Pistons, they, they had Ben Wallace, they signed Billups and traded for Hamilton in the same summer. They drafted Tayshaun, but then the big move was they fired Rick Carlisle and hired Larry Brown. It's basically what the Knicks did with Tibbs, right? And then the Rasheed Wallace deadline trade was the other one. The Knicks, they had some luck with Dallas fucking up the Brunson thing, right? That was a 4-for-55, Zach, for Brunson. Dallas could have locked them down.

There's a whole— I don't think we have time to dig into the whole Jalen Brunson, who said what, when, what was offered when, why wasn't it offered when.

Yes, there was just that Dallas lost him.

Yes, there, there was a time where they could have locked him down for that. And if they had been a little more proactive, I think they probably could have.

So they signed Hartenstein, who was like a stopgap. But the other big lucky break for them was the Mitchell-Utah trade, which I forgot the details. Do you remember what the holdup was on that trade, Sean?

No.

What was the holdup?

The Jazz really wanted Grimes in the trade and the Knicks wanted Quickley in the trade and it became like, well, it's either 3 unprotected firsts or 2 firsts and are protected depending on who is in it. And then they said, fuck you, and went and took the Cleveland trade. Zach, if they have Mitchell and Brunson, does that team make sense to you? Plus you don't have all the extra picks to trade for Bridges.

I was also going back and rereading the Donovan Mitchell trade stuff for different reasons, but I, I remember thinking at the time, and Ian Begley was, is, and was the most plugged in Knicks guy at the time, and he had a lot of the details about, well, this offer was made here at this timeline, and was there a pick here? And it's just like, it just made me think, did the Knicks really want to do this? Like, because they wanted to do it on their terms almost versus actually wanting to do it because they knew the question you just asked me about, like these two guards, small score firsts, like, is this actually going to work? And if we use all these assets here, what do we have left for stuff down the line? Look, I'm sure there was part of their front office that really wanted to do it and there was debate internally about this pick, that pick. But the bottom line is they did not go as all in as they needed to go all in. And I think it unquestionably saved them. It unquestionably— the roads not taken for them are, are that are Embiid.

And obviously Giannis is the one that, to Sean's point, halfway through the season, all the discourse was, well, they blew it with Mikael Bridges. They don't have picks for Giannis. They're hopeless. And, you know, they're just kind of stuck. And I was relistening to the live show I did in Brooklyn because I felt at the time it was mid-March and I felt like the whole show was me giving Knicks fans a pep talk. Like, no, you guys are, you guys are third in offense, sixth in defense. Yeah, I know it's been a little rocky, but like, who, who's beating you in the East? And because it felt like Knicks fans needed a pep talk, I was like, I don't need to run.

I could tell you that much.

I, I, I didn't have huge expectations for the playoffs. I thought they should definitely beat the Hawks. And then after that, I thought it was a crapshoot because I thought any, any of those top 5 teams, a lot of things also like the Magic, not having to deal with the Magic and then the Magic kind of falling apart was another thing that went their way. There were a million things that went their way. The, to the, the point about Donovan Mitchell, if they had acquired him and they tried to pair them together, I think it might've been a somewhat similar situation that Brunson had to contend with through the first 4 seasons of his professional career, essentially playing behind Luka. And so you could say like the Mavs mismanaged that scenario, or maybe there was nothing they really could have done by just having a superstar backup point guard behind the single best backcourt player in the sport. But I, you just can't under, like overstate who and what Brunson is. I, there's just, there has never been a New York Knick like him. There are very few players in the NBA like him. I think like maybe now finally NBA fans who like, even if they deep down hate the Knicks, like you can't watch him for 9 consecutive fourth quarters and consistently watch him just take over games and be unguardable.

I mean, his shot making, he's been doing this since he came to the Knicks. This is not new. It's like, it's the supporting cast that you just described, Bill. It's those guys, those pivotal moves that they've made acquiring OG, acquiring Mikael. You know, building up Robinson so that he could play 65 games in a season, acquiring KAT. It— all of that stuff has changed. Brunson's been basically the same guy who scores 27 points a game, who is fearless down the stretch, who always puts the team on his shoulders. And when the team isn't going well, we can point to him and say, oh well, you know, it's, it's iso ball and it's all Brunson and he's taking 9 of 13 shots in the fourth quarter. But when they're going good and when the supporting cast looks good, that works and it's gonna, it has been working throughout this playoffs and I genuinely, you know, you can talk about like Walt Clyde Frazier, you know, like there's Earl Monroe, like there's, it's a very short list of guys that he is now getting into the conversation with after just 5 seasons.

Yeah.

And I don't know, it's making, it's making my head spin. It's, I just, when we picked him up, I was, I was not against the move at all. It was obviously a very savvy contract, but never in my wildest dreams that I ever think he would become this person to the franchise.

We all like Brunson. I think the Knicks felt like he could be this guy. I, I do think Leanna West did feel that way. I thought that was crazy. Like, I, I clearly thought he— I, I might have even said it in the pods, like, this guy could be one of the best 3 guys on a Final Four team. Like, there's no question. I didn't think he could be what he became. Like, you're talking about, like, for an entire generation of Knicks fans, well, multiple generations, but if you're talking about like 30-and-under Knicks fans. Like, they're— this is like their David Ortiz, basically. If they win the title, he becomes David Ortiz. One of the things about how they put the team together, they were cutthroat a couple times. The Towns trade was cutthroat. Like, that— like, Randle was like their guy. Like, they brought him in, they gave him a big extension, they went and signed DiVincenzo. Um, they traded— I think, would they trade Toppin to have the DiVincenzo money? Villanova guy. This is our crew now. And then they had a chance to get Towns and they just like slit their throats basically and went and got Towns.

That was cutthroat. And then the, uh, the Tibbs trade, the Tibbs firing. Kind of have to do that sometimes. You know, there's a difference between being desperate and cutthroat. Those were two moves that were probably the right moves. Um, but it's still like, I don't know if all teams make those moves, Zach.

No.

Um, it's, it's like what we were talking about earlier where if OKC's like, check, can't defend Wemby, we're trading him. And it's just like, we're cutting his throat. Some teams won't do it.

No, the Towns one was a risk and it's one that has gone up and down over like halfway through the season. It looked like, did Minnesota like kind of win this trade? Cats all over the place and like Randle's playing really well and DiVincenzo is essential and now it's like swung totally the other way. But it was a bet on it was a ceiling bet. It was a, we need to take some risk of absorbing this contract because if it works, our ceiling goes up a level that Randle and DiVincenzo just can't—

they needed a center. Can't take—

you needed a center and you need a 5 who can shoot. And yeah, I mean, they've been— and Anunoby was the guy they clearly just targeted. And Brunson, I remember I was with you guys. I mean, I remember vividly doing on my old podcast, like, that deal was slammed, like really unpopular contract in a lot of corners. And I remember saying, I don't, I don't love it, but it's like a BB plus. Like Jalen Brunson's a really good player and like it's a lot at that time, but like it's a BB plus contract. Obviously in retrospect it was an A plus plus plus.

What was it? Was it 4 for 100? What was it?

A little more than 4 for 106.

Yeah.

106.

I was on the bullish side for it, but I also was like, yeah, it's guys, career average is 11 points a game. It's definitely on the higher end.

I do think we're all overlooking just a huge story here and a huge fly in the ointment.

Chalamet?

No, even more dire than the celebrity fandom of this.

The return of Chalamet to being on TV and stuff?

Which my dad, by the way, hates. He's like, I don't understand. Do they pay for their tickets? Why do all these rich people get free stuff? I don't like it. Even more dire. And Sean, I think you need to be worried. I think you need to be on higher alert. Oh no. I don't know if you know this, but the Cavs have won the shot quality battle through 3 games in this series. Oh yeah.

I won. Yeah.

I think, I think you guys are actually on the ropes here.

Yeah.

I think if you look at the track, the look at the tracking data, it's neck and neck, but the Cavs have a slight edge in shot quality. And let me tell you, I, I, I think the league is gonna retroactively go back and look at the shot quality and flip the results of these games. And you might be down 2-1 tomorrow morning. He's like, I wouldn't get too excited about the Finals just yet. Or the Cavs could win 4-1.

It's a deceiving 3-0, Sean. Don't, don't get comfy.

I did see that interview with Kenny Atkinson today, which was very amusing. Let's just say it's been passed around amongst Knicks fans. Listen, I—

Are you scared, Sean? Are you scared of what the next 4 games portend because of this?

I don't, what I don't want is to say something stupid and then all of a sudden this series is 3-3 and I'm getting clipped by like Cavs busting genius, you know, on X.com. I, I, I'm very excited about how well they've played. And you know what, as a, as a dork who looks at exit VLO and hard hit rate and base ball, like that's not true. I do, I do like trick myself into thinking that that shit matters. But like, look, the Cavs just haven't been able to hit threes in this series, but also the Knicks play great defense. So both things can be true.

Look, if you played those games 150,000 times, it might be a different result. Unfortunately, Sean, this is the result that actually matters and it's 3-0.

And the, the, the fact is, is that Timothée Chalamet was courtside for two of those games. So maybe he's in Donovan Mitchell's head. Have we considered that? Maybe he's in James Harden's head.

Very possible. Here's the other thing. Game 4 is already over because there was a play at the end of Game 3 that made me convinced the Knicks are gonna sweep them. That Jalen Brunson hesitation layup when all 5 Cavs just decided they weren't gonna move anymore. That's the kind of thing that happens when you're going home in 2 days. Yeah. I don't think you can come back from that.

They kind of quit. They, in the 4th quarter, they kind of quit.

It was a quitting is what was going on.

Yeah. Yeah.

And I think the Knicks can smell it. And the Knicks, I mean, Sean, what, this is the prolog of my book, The Secret. The Knicks, part of the problem with them during the season is everybody was having to sacrifice stuff. And there were all these different times when people didn't seem that happy about the sacrificing. Those guys are all locked in now. I don't, I don't know how it happened over these last 10 games, but it happened. And that's the great thing about sports when you watch it happen in real time.

I think obviously OG was unstoppable until he got injured, but the secret is what you already talked about, which is that Bridges shooting 75% from the field and being back to that mid-range guy and also being really comfortable as basically the second option offensively. Yeah, has just totally transformed the offense for them. The, the early story was KAT being Point KAT, but that has kind of moved out recently and Bridges just having much more usage in the offense makes them way more dynamic and scary. I mean, they're gonna match up totally differently though with either of the two teams in the West, assuming they go forward. Like it's, they're, it's gonna be a different looking offense and it's gonna be harder, I think, for Brunson to get some of those baskets that he's been getting in the last two series. But I have to enjoy this. I mean, it's 53 years since the Knicks have won a title. It's 27 years since they've been in the NBA Finals. It's 40 years since a team that I root for of the 3 major sports has won a title. 40 years. Like, this is very rare, and it's extremely rare to watch a team that I care about just motherfuck teams.

I mean, it's just amazing how they're just dominating for the last 3 weeks. And so I'm, I'm such an embittered and cynical sports fan. Like, I really just gotta look myself in the mirror and be like, have some gratitude, you asshole, because this is super special.

I got this email from Yuval in Israel. I'm gonna read it to you. I remember the Mavs were 2-2 in the first round against the Brandon Roy Blazers, and people were saying Dirk is choking again. That was before the 2011 Mavs had one of the most beloved championship runs ever. Something clicked. They went on this crazy one, went 10-1 the rest of the way in the West. Almost every Mavs player had a moment. Barea, Chandler, Peja, even DeShawn Stevenson. They beat the villains of the league, the Heat, without home court. The Knicks have a chance to do something similar if they take out OKC. If they actually win it, will this championship be as universally beloved as the 2011 Mavs run? This is an interesting one. Because it's a New York team, right? Dallas, everybody loved Dirk, including Zach Lowe. Everybody had kind of given up on him having a moment like that, and then he just fucking went Clint Eastwood on the 2011 playoffs and series by series just took people out. And then they took out this Heat team that everybody was annoyed by. Zach, do you see the parallels? If it was OKC during this whole flop thing at this moment they're having the back-to-back, and then this Knicks team that comes outta nowhere Do you think it would be as beloved as that Mavs title?

Well, it's interesting you ask that because I saw Ethan Strauss write this column this week about like, basically, why is this not a bigger story that this team in the biggest city and the biggest market is doing this? And I'm like, maybe I just live in the wrong place. 'Cause it's like the defining story of my life.

I feel like it's a massive story.

24 hours a day. So I, I think it could be, I mean, it, there, like the Knicks don't have a Dirk who's like been just beaten down and been close to the mountaintop and shoved off and is like entering the back nine of his career and this might be his last chance. And that was also a collection of vets.

But Brunson is as like the small guy underdog and small guys aren't supposed to win titles kind of.

No, I'm just— I'm giving you the counters before I hammer it. And the other counter is like there are just some, some people who don't like New York City. And don't like New York and it's too big and all the famous people. I think it would be, if not as universally beloved, almost so, and like such a rapturous moment around the league because it is New York, because it is the Knicks. And it may depend a little bit on who they play in the Finals because the Thunder have a, a whiff of a different kind of villainousness to them, in at least in the way they're perceived around the league. Not the same as that Miami team, but Yeah. Like there are just some parts of the country, parts, fans in parts of the country who hate, hate New York and be like, oh boy, the big bad Knicks. And we have to listen to everyone talk about New York and the Yankees will probably win the World Series and we'll do it all again.

Well, that would be terrible.

But I, but I think, I think the Knicks are their own unique thing in New York City because of the sport. It's the city's game. They're the city's team. And it's been so goddamn long that I think it would be as rapturous as the Mavs one.

I think there's one other component to this too, which is if this had happened last season, it might have felt a little bit different because it would've felt like they were vanquishing teams that they had not beaten before. So obviously that Boston series, sorry Bill, was like euphoric for Knicks fans cuz we were underdogs in that series for real.

Yeah.

And that was a really triumphant series win. And then they got their, their, their hearts ripped out in game 1 of the Pacers series and that series was effectively over. And obviously the Pacers have given Knicks fits over the years in the playoffs. And so if they had gone to the Finals after that run, it would've felt different than this where they're basically dispatching a bunch of teams that they've already beaten before. You know, the Knicks have 3 years ago beat the Cavs in the playoffs. The Knicks 2 years ago beat the Sixers in the playoffs. Both of those teams were seeded lower than the Knicks are. It doesn't feel like as triumphant and stunning a run to the Finals. And so maybe that's part of the reason why it's not getting these incredible national headlines. Also, At the very beginning of this season, I think most pundits felt like the Knicks were the most talented team in the conference and probably should be at least in the Eastern Conference Finals. In fact, the Knicks owner basically set a mandate for Mike Brown and the team that they had to make the Finals, that the expectation was the NBA Finals.

So they're— it's not preordained per se, but this has just been talked about for 16 months as a possibility. So it doesn't feel stunningly special. And also I think Zach's right that New York teams are just hated. Like the Knicks are kind of a fumbling franchise over the last half century, but they're just not beloved. And whatever success they have had, especially in the '90s, was for kind of like brute force, unlikable style of play. And so I think for older fans, that's also burned into their brains is like, this isn't a team that I love watching.

Yeah, true.

This team though, this season, I mean, this playoffs, they've been a lot of fun to watch. I think offensively they're, they're pretty exciting.

Yeah. So Dolan in the 2000s, a 10 out of 10 train wreck. And then the 2010s, a 10 out of 10 train wreck. That's 20 years, one-fifth of a century, a complete train wreck as an owner. Right before COVID All-Star Weekend, Chicago. I think Zach Lowe was there. No, it's, they, You skipped it.

I skipped it cuz I didn't wanna get COVID.

Somehow I went, I went to Sundance and All-Star Weekend and the Oscars and went 0 for 3 on COVID. Sean, Sean went 1 for 1.

I went to Sundance and, and have never been more sick in my life. So pleased to have been patient zero.

Oh, I got it at the Sloan Conference 2 weeks later. Yeah. It's not like I would, it's not like my discipline sustained.

Yeah. So they hire Leon and Wes. Basically 3 weeks before COVID And then post-COVID, they've just turned into a completely different franchise. And Dolan's been a good owner. Like, he's, he's let those guys do their thing. Supposedly he was the one that's like, we have to fire Tibbs, you guys are being too loyal to him, he's not good enough, get rid of this guy. Um, he's paid for a lot of money. Like, it's been impressive. And you'd think with that, with the Sphere, which has been like one of the most successful entertainment things that has launched probably this century. Dolan's back, man. You gotta hand it to him. I made a lot of jokes about him. I made a lot of jokes with my column and on the pod, but you gotta hand it to the dude, man.

He's done a good job. Back from what?

What?

Like when was he, when did he, when was he originally good?

Like Dolan's here.

Dolan's here.

I thought, I really thought for a second that you were gonna draw some connection from COVID To Dolan arriving.

This is the before and after.

I, I thought there was gonna be some sort of scientific commentary that was gonna frighten me. My screen was just gonna go black. Like the connection was gonna get lost.

Well, as Sean knows, I don't really remember anything from 2020 or 2021. And yep, there's a chance all of us are dead right now and this isn't actually happening with the Knicks. It's possible.

I love the idea of this being your projection, the sci-fi post-COVID dream state. Yeah, that's really exciting that, that James Dolan became a good owner.

But you got to hand it to him, man. He's doing a good job. The New York thing's interesting because this is such a beloved team. Like, if you just like basketball, I just really respect how they play. I think Brunson is just one of the most admirable guys we have in the league. But it is a New York team, and there are a ton of New York fans. And, you know, I don't need to tell you, Sean, when it's going well for New York fans, they have a way of letting everybody know about that. So I'll be interested to see how everybody handles this over the next 4 weeks.

I'll, I'll just say this is the first public comments I'm making since this win streak started. I've been trying to keep my mouth shut throughout this. That's great.

It's a great way to do it.

I don't want to jinx it and I'm also super grateful. However, like, give it, like, we deserve this. Come on. 53 years.

You deserve it just for the last 20.

Yeah, it's, it was the 2000s were fucking tough, man. That was a really hard time because in addition to being inept on the court, they were entrenched in controversy and scandal nonstop. I mean, it, it was a very ugly time to be a fan of that team. So this just feels different. And I, I, I've said this to you the last year or so, Bill, but they're just normal now. They just win like 52 games every year. They have one or two players who are in the conversation for All-NBA. They're just like a legitimately good NBA franchise. The other thing I'll, I'll note is that Leon Rose does not speak to the press ever, ever. And that is also so strange. And so we don't even really know very much about the architects of this team through this 6-year period. We just know that they're making the right moves. And I would say 6 of the 8 big moves that they've made, since this new administration came in. When they happened, I was like, that's not a good idea. It was like my old, you know, Knicks reflexes kicked in where I was like, ah, trading Randle and DiVincenzo.

I don't get that. Oh, oh, I hope OG is a good deal, but like he's really injury prone. We're getting older in that deal. That doesn't make sense. Oh, we missed out on KD and Kyrie and we backfilled with Julius Randle as a free agent. Oh, 4 years for Brunson and that this is at the expense of getting Donovan Mitchell. Like All of those times, because Knicks fans are so beat up, you could have been like, well, we're going to get the short end of the stick on this one. And every single one worked out. Even Bridges, which that trade was, was, was pilloried as recently as April.

How about a month ago?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Like, like it was like way too many picks. And now all of a sudden, two playoffs in a row, we're like, nope, he's essential. He might even be the second best player on the team. And that's astonishing. That's like The fact that all those moves that those guys made worked out and they never once got in front of the public and were like, well, we did this, so trust us. They don't say anything. It's crazy.

Well, one of the reasons, you know, they're good is besides Brunson, the next best 3 guys on the team have all had moments when they've seemed like they're clearly the second best guy in the team. And that's when you know you have a good team. But they're— Zach, I remember doing this in the 2024 Finals with Celtics-Dallas when Celtics were favored, but maybe not as much as they should have been favored considering the disparity, the disparity with the records and stuff. And at some point it just became math. It's like the Celtics have been this team for 8 months. This is kind of who they are. You look at the advanced stats for the playoffs and the Knicks have an— they're +18.5 for 13 playoff games. That's like a small sample size. It's 3 different series. and it includes them being down 2-1 in the first one. But they have the second-best defensive rating, they have the best offensive rating, and they have the point differential. They have all this mass stuff in their place. We've always learned that's, that's should be a bigger factor when you're trying to figure out what's going to happen than we give it credit for.

So I assume if they blow out the Cavs tomorrow or even just win, those numbers will still be pretty good. Do you pay attention to that though, Zach? Those, those postseason advanced metric shit?

Sure. I mean, again, it's a small sample and it's so opponent specific that, you know, it can be a little, you have to be careful. But I mean, when you are, I mean, I don't even care what the numbers are when you're like, I, I haven't even looked. When you're this dominant and you're winning by this many points every single game, like I've seen some people, well, who have they played? They played the Hawks. You fattened up against all these lottery teams.

That's pretty good.

But didn't, didn't hear a lot about that when it was 2-1 Hawks. Oh, they played the Sixers who, you know, they're injury prone Joel couldn't sustain. By the way, I, I do have to give you this as a Celtics person. You got the, like, the week that the Sixers became the full-fledged Sixers was against you. Similarly, 5 seasons ago, you got like the week that the Harden-Kyrie-Durant Nets became the full-fledged Durant Nets. That was also against you guys.

It's true.

But like, I don't want to hear about any of this because if you beat 3 playoff teams by this much, this many times, it says something about the group that you're in. And oh, by the way, they were 3rd in offense and 7th in defense in the regular season. And 7th in defense with this roster is quite an accomplishment. Like it was sitting there, they were, they were, now what they've done in the playoffs is a completely different thing, but they're just a really good team.

They caught a couple, couple small breaks, but every team gets breaks every year. Tatum and Halliburton getting hurt. Giannis and Bede breaking down. But I, and that's happened. That's, that's wear and tear with schedule year after year. The, the one real break I thought they caught was Detroit kind of choking at the trade deadline, not doing anything. 'Cause Detroit was the one team that felt like they like going toe to toe with the Knicks.

They really had their number during the regular season.

And, and you know what, why didn't they get the extra guy? And I, if, if I'm a Detroit fan, I'm going crazy right now that we are not in the Eastern Finals.

See, I get it. 3-0 Detroit in the regular season. I was, I would've picked the Knicks in 6 maximum.

I would've picked the Knicks too without even thinking that hard about it.

And I would not have thrown away the regular season stuff, but I just would not have read too much into it. And I think the Knicks were just qualitatively a better team than Detroit. 'Cause I've seen a lot of—

Kawhi Leonard was on the Pistons.

Well, okay. I mean, I've seen a lot of like, oh, Detroit whipped—

I don't know.

I don't know where they would've got—

In the regular season and boy, they blew it against Cleveland.

I just like, I didn't like the way they were playing in the playoffs. I like the way the Knicks are playing in the playoffs. I don't read too much into those games.

Well, I guess you can't get too comfortable 'cause analytically you're losing 2 to 1.

Yeah, that's gonna be, they feel really bad when, when they, when they sweep and they've lost, they, they've lost 3 games to 1 analytically.

I don't know how Sean's, I don't know how you're gonna sleep tonight, man.

This like, you don't understand the month Sean's had. He, he goes to Cannes for the first time ever. He's there for like a week and a half. As that's happening, the Knicks go on the fucking all-time heater. It's like Worm at the Chesterfield, just whipping the Russians for 24 straight hours.

Yeah, but they're not cheating. That's the thing to remember. No mechanic work, no dealing from the bottom of the deck.

I wish the Mets would cheat, by the way, Sean. As long as we're here, I'm in for anything.

Don't get me started.

Get the garbage cans out in the back, whatever you gotta do, because I, you know, I will burn the franchise to the ground.

Whatever the Knicks are doing, the Mets need to drink some of that juice. 'Cause what the fuck, dude? Like, absolutely.

I'm not listening to you guys complain about baseball when my, my owner has just thrown away baseball in Boston.

All right, fair.

We, we traded a possible Cy Young guy this year for a guy who's hitting.161.

Yeah, but he got you like 3 titles.

Yeah. And then he's like, he's 4, first of all, 4, 4 titles. And, and then he is like, you guys should be more appreciative. I should be able to do what I want now.

I mean, he's right. I don't, none of us feel that.

Way.

Just sell the team.

The Mets are way more embarrassing. First of all, they haven't won in 40 years. Second of all, they spend $400 million on their payroll and they have the worst offense in the sport. I want to jump off a building thinking about them. It's insane. Thank God for the Knicks. Thank God.

It is. But like, if you spent money like that in basketball, your team would be good. You would just, that would just mean you have really good players. In baseball, you can spend money on Bichette and then he could just immediately turn into the worst shortstop in the National League.

He makes $42 million a year.

I'm so sorry I did this. I'm sorry.

It's my fault. Why don't you bring this up, Zach?

This is my fault. I, you know why I brought it up? You know why I brought it up? Because I spent part of the day with my daughter who's now a big Mets fan. We went shopping together and she said, the Mets playing this afternoon, let's check the score. And it was the 7th inning. This is, we're at the freaking mall. We're at the Stanford Mall on a Sunday. This is my life.

Stanford Mall. They used to be my, my heyday place.

Checking the Mets score, 7th inning. And I said to her, you'll never guess how many of the runs the Mets have in the 7th inning. It's 0-0. And we drove home, we drove home listening to the game on the radio. Bottom of the 9th, Marlins are up. We pull into the driveway, guys are on base. We turn on the TV and Airbender gives up a fucking walk-off grand slam right in our face. That's why, that's why I've brought it up. 'Cause I had a day with it.

I want to hear a little bit more about Bill's heyday place, the Stanford Mall. What, what, what went down there?

Here was the highlight. Um, first of all, Stanford Mall was unbelievable. Um, but one summer Woody Allen was filming Scenes from a Mall there.

Scenes from a Mall. Yeah.

With Bette Midler and they were just there and they were just sometimes—

Directed by Paul Mazursky.

Sometimes they're on the top floor and, uh, it was just such a big deal for the mall.

Did you approach Woody and say, I love your work. Thanks for everything.

I didn't approach Woody. They had a great A&W. They had a good music.

The curly fries at the A&W were really good. You could do a Sam Goody and A&W were right next to each other on the 7th floor. You could get some CDs and go get some curly fries.

We had a Waldenbooks. Was just good times.

Yeah, you guys are getting into trouble. A couple of scams hanging out in Stanford Mall.

Yeah, I saw 2 root beer floats.

One of my great cinematic memories, Sean Fantasy, of The Big Picture is waiting in line for 2.5 hours for the opening night of 1989's Batman at the Stanford Mall. That, that's how big that, how is how big that movie was. A bunch of 11 to 12-year-old guys were like, we're, we're camping out basically to get into this movie.

That's beautiful.

I saw a lot of great ones there. I don't even know if they have a movie theater there anymore. Is the mall still nice?

It, it still looks the same. A lot of the stores are closed. A lot of them have become arcades basically. And one of the anchor stores, I, I don't know where, I think it might be Saks has become the, allegedly the nation's largest pickleball facility. Is that, is that how they—

Oh my God. That's the worst thing I've ever heard. That's like this guy who bought the Trail Blazers is like the biggest investor in pickleball.

Can I tell you a pickleball story?

Yeah, go ahead.

Game 2 Knicks, a, a team official who shall not be named says hi to me, introduces me to a guy who knows Joe House. It's like, hey, I know Joe House.

Sam was a good starter.

I think his name is Sam Porter. And he is the owner or founder or something of the biggest professional pickleball league. And he looked me straight in the eye and he said, I really, I really like what you guys do on the NBA podcast. You know, you and Bill have great chemistry. He's like, I can't listen as much anymore. And I said, why? He's like, I can't take Bill's slander on pickleball. It's just too much. I can't do it. So you've lost, you've lost a listener because of your anti-pickleball takes.

I'll be on the right side of history. If we lose a couple listeners along the way, it's fine. Pickleball sucks. What was the best movie you saw at Canshaw?

Called Club Kid. Stars Jordan Firstman, who is Rachel Sennett's friend from the TV show I Love L.A. It's his directorial debut. He plays a guy who's a club promoter in New York City who wakes up one day and he's in his 30s and he has no money and no insurance and nothing to show for it. And 10-year-old kid shows up on his front door and is like, you're my dad. And he's like, what the fuck are you talking about? Because Jordan Firstman's character is gay in the film. And it was funny and heartwarming and like old-fashioned and beautiful. And I was like, this is like a Barry Levinson movie. Or like, it was kind of like Big Daddy, the Adam Sandler movie. And honestly stole my heart. I had a great time watching it. Didn't expect it. It was great.

So it's like Gay Kramer versus Kramer crossed with Big Daddy.

Exactly. That's exactly what it is.

A good idea.

Yeah. And it's funny and sweet and, and excellent.

Zach, did Sean's Projections newsletter about movies that he launched a couple weeks ago get your, uh, get your juices watered to maybe start your own version? I'm a subscriber. An NBA type thing.

I'm a subscriber. It's, uh, it's, it's been an idea I've been kicking around. I'm a little scared. I forgot how to do it.

I will say I was doing a chat on the Substack and literally someone asked me, I signed up for your thing. I'm really glad you're here, but I really need you to get both Zach and Bill writing again. It's really important to me. And I said, I'm doing my best. So Bill, you can't just pass the buck to Zach. It goes to you too.

I sent like a 180-word text today. So I don't know if that's got me going. Just hammering the two fingers, getting going.

What was it about?

I don't know. Something— oh, it was about, uh, graduation plans.

Oh, okay. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, that's not exactly like writing about the NBA, but it's a start.

I mean, my daughter's been home for the last two weeks, and you guys have younger daughters than my daughter, and, um, she's 21 now, and we go out, and she can't wait to get carded and order a drink, and I'm just letting you know what's coming for you guys down the road.

I feel very far away from that.

Yeah. Yeah. They get, they just, the, the happiness in their eyes as they're handing their real driver's license to a bartender or waiter. Um, kind of like the look in your eyes right now, Sean, about the Knicks.

My version of getting carded with my daughter is when she's like, Dad, take out your credit card so you can buy me this.

Um, there it is.

Which is something I'm becoming more and more familiar with.

All right. You can listen to Sean on The Big Picture. You can listen to Zach on The Zach Lowe Show. Which will be going, uh, you'll potentially be at Game 5, right? If Cleveland somehow comes back and wins one.

Honestly, I just forgot that there could be a Game 5, to be honest with you. But yes, I would be there if it exists.

I honestly think it's a wrap, and I think there's going to be 30 to 40% Knicks fans there tomorrow, would be my other prediction.

Can't believe this is happening. This is unbelievable.

Heard there, can't get courtsides if you're a Knicks fan. Like, though, it'll get on the ticket sites, it'll reject you if you're not from Cleveland.

What is that like? They'll forcibly remove you from the arena?

They'll just reset your order.

But they make room for celebrities like Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce.

We're— well, we're gonna have some celebs at the game tomorrow, but I don't think they'll be courtside. Sean, good luck. Congratulations. I'm glad things have turned around for you.

Thanks for inviting me.

It came at the expense of my team. That's fine. We've been friends for a long time.

Well, I deserve at least one goddamn thing in this life, so thank you.

Yeah. After the 6th Tom Brady Super Bowl, you deserve something.

All right. Settle down.

Tom Brady's— that's another thing that's happening for you. Tom Brady's getting super weird. This is almost like another win for you.

With respect, he's been an absolute weirdo for 20 years.

Zach Lowe, thanks as always. Uh, good to see you. I will see you next Sunday. Uh, thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Jack Wilson and Chris as well. That's it for us on Netflix. I'll be back on Tuesday. Don't forget tomorrow, Animal House on the Rewatchables.

House.

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