Transcript of The All-Positive NBA Show With Kirk Goldsberry

Coming up next. Are you feeling positive, Kirk Goldsbury?

I'm feeling extremely positive, Bill Simmons.

We are going to go so positive on the NBA, and that's next. The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by the Ringer podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables last night. We did Friday Night Lights. It is basically the 28th anniversary of that movie. It came out 20 years ago. Meet Mala Rubin, one of the best football movies of all time. It's age really nice. Are you a fan, Kirk Goldsbury, Friday Night Of course.

I mean, it's Texas. It's like the New Testament of Texas, I think. I love it.

Well, now the movies become underrated, which is one of the things, one of the reasons why I do that podcast. Anyway, you can watch that in the Ringer Movies. You can watch it as a Spotify video podcast as well. You can watch all the videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. You can hear Kurt Goldsbury. He's popping all over the place in the Ringer MBA show. He's written some pieces for the Ringer. He's going to be on in one second with me because we are doing the all-positive End of the Year NBA podcast. It's next, First, Our Friends, Ron. Pearl Jam. All right, Kurt Goldsbanger is here. We are taping this on Tuesday morning, New Year's Eve, trying to put this up before everybody goes out. We are doing an all-positive NBA podcast. Kire, the NBA has taken a lot of hits, even on this podcast in a couple of ways. A lot of complaining, a lot of nitpicking, a lot of people forgetting what the league was like 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago and holding on to some ideal of something I'm not positive really existed. But what I want to do today is no negativity at all, all the positive story lines, all the things I'm excited about.

But before we get into it, do you think this is overboard with people complaining about the season this year? Because I actually feel like we hit that point about two weeks ago.

Yeah, I got sick of it. We're toughest, though. Everybody's going through the holidays, right? We're toughest on the ones we love the most. That's one of the things you learn as a parent. Good way to think about it.

Yeah.

We have high standards for the NBA, Bill, don't we? It's a product that we cherish that's been with us for our whole lives. So I think a lot of it comes from a good place, honestly. But there's been a lot of people just waiting, I feel like, to take shots at the NBA that have used this recent news cycle as a chance to just get their grievances out. And Frankly, it has gotten to be a little too much.

Yeah. This happens with anything. This happens with bands. It happens with actors. It happens with writers where you just become convinced things were better five years ago, 10 years ago, and that's just the way it is. The NBA is really good right now, and we're going to go through a whole bunch of things, but I just want to start here. We're going to go, I asked you to come up with some things you want to hit as well. I have a bunch of them. The number one thing I want to hit, though, is just basketball is better played now than it ever was, and it's not close. It's not an argument. The players are more skilled. They shoot better. The games are more high scoring. The scoring is better in the games. The defense is better. The skill is better. I would urge people to really watch closely some of these games. One of the things that's changed for me, just from a skill level that I constantly marvel at, especially I went to a Clippers Warriors game in person a couple of days ago. The ability for people to just drive and then throw these one-handed, perfectly placed passes to guys in the corner, nobody was doing that 10 years ago.

And now you have 70... Tyler Hero is basically Joe Burrow in those, and you wouldn't think of him as a good passer. But I'm just so impressed over and over again with how skilled these dudes are. And I don't think people see it, or the people that do see it, maybe we're not loud enough. But am I crazy thinking these guys are just better than they used to be?

Hell, no. In fact, I feel like somebody told me small ball was about... The 2010s were about small ball. We're halfway through the 2020s here, Bill. And we might call it skill ball, I think, because even the big dudes like Jokić and Embiid and Wemby, name a center from 2004 or 1994. Could they do anything that Jokić, too? Maybe a Kaden Rasheed-Walace. There were some guys that were super skilled that could shoot the ball and pass and dribble.

It's basically Rasheed. Rasheed was the guy everyone pointed to and said, oh, my God, this guy, he can shoot from outside, he can post up. And we held him up to this crazy level, and he was like 16 points a game.

Yeah, I agree. And I think LeBron helped change that, too. He's like, I'm going to be a five to a player, to borrow the term from baseball. And this generation does everything. Everybody does everything, dribble, pass, and shoot. And skill has never been this high. And it's one of the reasons offenses are scoring so much. It's not just the lack of defense. These offensive skills have made the offensive event almost impossible to defend. So I think it's fair to say that the talent pool of the NBA, the 500 dudes in that league at any given time, this is the best group of 500 basketball players we've ever had.

I don't even think it's close. And I also think it's probably the best top 50 we've ever had by far. I was looking at 2025 versus 2005. So in 2025, we're averaging 113 points a game. In 2005, we averaged 97.2, 16 points less. We're shooting better now. We're 46.4% field goal. We were 44.7 in 2005. Three-point shooting slightly better, 35.9. It was 35.6. Assists were five higher a game. They're shooting 21.5 more threes a game. But everyone points to that. And really, we changed long twos and bad post-ups for threes, and I'm fine with the trade. I would rather watch somebody shoot a three. I think when people, and including me, have complained about the NBA, and again, we're trying to go all positive, there's a sameness to what they're watching. What it really is, it's not the threes. To me, it's the pick for the guy 30 feet from the basket at the top. It's the over and over again of two guys in the corner and one or two picks coming up for somebody like Tatum, whoever it is, Jay Lemberts, it could be anybody. Just seeing that over and over again, the sameness of it, I think that's what people are thinking of.

It's not the fact that we're shooting more threes because they're making more threes and we have more skilled players. I don't know how you fix the sameness, and I'm not sure I care. Where do you stand on that?

I think they got to move the line. Again, I'm staying positive here, but you started with the guys throwing to the corner. One of the reasons those guys are so good at throwing to the corner is every trip down, that there's two guys in the corner the whole time, every time. That wasn't true. So there's just guys there. I don't think, and we're probably going to talk about Jokić and Wemby and Shay. I mean, if you're really watching the game, there's not that much sameness. I agree. And again, you started the podcast by talking about people forgot what we were watching. Dump it down to Mikael or Parish or Mike Jaminski. You have to remember, this wasn't Jordan and Bird every night. Sometimes it was the Mavericks and bullets. And there used to be some pretty repetitive actions in the post-up there at the NBA that weren't fantastic, so to speak. So I think it is relatively fair, but it's not new to say that the NBA is homogenous at times.

Well, and the other thing, and one of the things that I think has been so great about this season, we have so many good guards. I look back to that first half of the 2000s when everyone was complaining and I was doing my bid about how I was one of the last 20 NBA fans. Even the guys that were the best guys, they were all doing Jordan imitations. To some degree. They were these guards that had the ball for a shitload. Even you look at the All-MBA and the All-Stars from that, it was like that was the Gilbert Arena, Sarah. That was T-Mac with the ball all the time. That was Kobe with the ball all time. That was why we latched on to Steve Nash and the Sun so much because the style they were playing was different. Wade had the ball all the time. Lebron had the ball all the time. But it wasn't the same smart offense we have now because the spacing was the same. You had these guys that had the ball all the time, but they're also playing with centers clogging the lane. We had power forwards back then.

They didn't know where to put them because they couldn't space. You had the Vin Baker, Antoine Walker, these guys that were just... I guess Antoine could shoot some three. So Rastautermier, people trying to figure out how to use these big guys. And now those big guys can pop out and they can do pop and pics. I just think the product's better. I don't think there's... Go back and watch, go on YouTube and watch just a random 2005 regular season game. We were all like, What are we going to do about this league? This is bad. How do we fix this? And I think they fixed a lot of it. And to me, it's a positive, not a negative.

Yeah, the three-point line has made basketball a lot better. The 2010s brought us pace and space. D'antoni had the controls for those Suns teams, but also that heliocentric offense in Houston that really figured out how to spam a superstar over and over and over again, but to great effect to make their offense some of the best in the NBA. I don't always love Hard, and I know Rassilo and I vibe on that point.

Yeah, I don't need that.

But aligning that hyper usage superstar, that guard, that skill with spacing and smarter plays and high screen and roles has been effective and made possessions more successful in general. But I think the game is more open, and if you like scoring, it's definitely more fun to watch now than an average NBA game. And this, again, is something I've been I'm just saying, Jordan this, Jordan that. Jordan was only one of 30 teams, right? An average NBA game in the '90s was not Michael Jordan. And I think people forget that, Bill. It's like the replacement level game from the '90s was not a great product.

Well, this is another thing I have which ties into this. The watchable basketball across the board, I think people really take for granted now. I would urge people to go back and look at the bottom rung of teams in 2015. That was when we had Philly in the process. Or in 2005, you just had these broken teams that were stuck with these terrible salary cap roster decisions. You had the Marbury-Nicks, you had the Celtic stuck with Paul pierce and Ricky Davis and Vin Baker's terrible contract, which turned into Rafe LaFrance's terrible contract. You go around the league, even like LeBron was stuck on a terrible Cavs team for three years. You go around the league, there was 10 to 15 unwatchable teams. I look at the bad teams now, and the bad teams, Portland, Charlotte, Washington, New Orleans, Toronto, Utah. I can watch all of those teams. I like watching Utah. New is the most fascinating five and 28 team I think we've ever had in the history of the league. I watched them last night play right down to the wire against the Clippers. Charlotte's got LaMelo and Brandon Miller. Portland, where our Justin Barrier is located now, Portland is fun to watch.

They've got a lot of weird pieces. They have guys who can spring for 35 at any night. Compared to where we were 10 years ago, it's no contest. The league is so much deeper and more entertaining. Do you see that, too? Is there anybody I'm missing?

No, I just say in the average League Pass game right now is way better than it's ever been. Way better. Tonight's game, we have Clipper Spurs. That's not a bad game. Wmdbe, we have Timberwolves in OKC. That's a great game. Grizzlies at Suns. That's a great game. Cavs at Lakers. That's a great game. That's just tonight. Those are your options on New Year's Eve if you're going to watch a game before you go out. That's a great set of games. And again, we can't just judge everything by, oh, Jordan versus the Knicks was incredible in the '90s. Well, But the Mavs versus the Bullets was not. And I think the average NBA game in 2024, as we hit 2025, is a very good product relative to where we came from.

I remember the first year I did countdown. There weren't five playoff teams you wanted to see. I remember it was either 2013 or '14. There was just some Bulls Net series that felt like it was going on for five weeks. That was in 2013, we had Memphis make the conference finals with that like Zeebo Gasol. Nobody could make a three. They had no spacing at all. There was some good stuff, too. Like the 2014 Spurs were just a revelation and really great. I think when people think about basketball before we moved into this three crazy era, the 2014 Spurs, and especially what they did in Miami, that's the ideal for the old way of basketball that tied to the 1970s and the '74 Celtics and the The Russell Celtics, there's ball movement, everything built around a big guy, guards who could attack. Those days are over because everybody can shoot threes down. We're just not going to have a team like the 2014 Spurs again. But I would urge people to go back. Even Miami who had LeBron during this incredible MVP heat check run and Wade and Bosh, they're pretty tough to watch in 2014.

They could barely put together seven guys. Now, all the best teams have 7 or 11 guys. I'm not sure it's the seventh guy in the Celtics and could score 25 any night. So I just think it's no contest right now.

Yeah, I agree. I think the 2014 Spurs is probably my favorite basketball team in my life. That's a special team for me. A beautiful game, Good to great. Monu, Tim, Kawhi, all firing on all cylinders. It was a great team.

Great chemistry.

Yeah, not ancient history, but becoming old school. And I think that team was as deep as it gets to. Remember their bench, the Foreign Legion, had a bunch of international players. They were ahead of their time with ball movement, player movement, and this international stuff. But spectacular esthetics on the court. It's probably an unfair standard for an average NBA team, again, an average game. But yeah, like the games that I mentioned tonight, those are great. The Cavs don't just stay there. They're playing with a lot of movement. They're great on both ends of the floor. Then you get to watch the Lakers, so LeBron playing clean. There's just great games, great players, almost every game tonight, for instance. I think the league's in a good Did you have the Cavs on your list? I didn't, but I have a related one. What do you got on the Cavs, Bill?

They killed Golden State last night. The Cavs are 27 and 4. When we're talking about in the All Positive NBA podcast, the Cavs are just great to watch. In a lot of ways, they inverted what the Celtics did last year, where instead of being built around these two great wings like the Celtics were with three-point shooting and defense. They inverted it where they're built around these two great guards with three-point shooting and with defense. If you're not ready for them on the wrong night or you think you're ready for them, but you're not, or they're hitting shots, they're basically unbeatable. I don't know how this is going to translate to the playoffs yet, but the fact that we have them and OKC, who is on a winning streak right now, who's going to win 60 plus games, who's just a regular season monster, and then the Sleeping Giants Celtics team who just clearly is on cruise control now until March, April. But then some of the other teams we have, just the depth of contenders at the top and the unpredictable ability of figuring out, even though I'm in the, Oh, it's going to be OKC Boston camp.

But I watched Cleveland last night. I'm like, Cleveland is going to be tough. Boston's got to get their shit together. Cleveland's probably getting the one seed. Boston's going to have to win a playoff game in a series in Cleveland, and that team is about as confident as it gets right now. I would throw them in, too, in the all positive pod.

Yeah. And I would say we got on here before the season. I said, hey, look out for Cleveland. I think they could get the two seed. Right now, obviously, at the season end of the day, they're the one seed. And then the other team I put in there, and one of the general themes of the first part of this. The East isn't as bad as we thought it was in the first few weeks. And the other team I got to put in there is New York Knicks. And that's a related one here, Bill. The NBA is so much better when the New York Knickerbockers are good and an MSG is hosting games in April and May. Bing bong. They've won nine of their last 10. Their defense has come around. Their starting five, closing five is legit. They could pass the Celtics, depending on how your team does on this road trip in early 2025. They could be the two seed here in a few days. But I think the East has three very good teams. I'm with you. I'm still taking Boston. I think they're tired from the Olympics and the playoff run last year.

But I think the Cleveland Cavaliers and the New York Knicks, we could pair these and be like, look, East Coast basketball is good. And if Philly has a pulse now and can come around and Milwaukee is good, look, the East has as many good teams as the West right now, period. And I wasn't saying that at the beginning of the year. And I think it's good for the League and its ratings when the Eastern time zone has some good basketball. So I think if we loop all this together, I think it's a really good storyline for the league in 2025 that the East is pretty good.

Well, don't count out the zombie magic. Of course. They're just wandering around in a dark, empty building with like, it's Tristan De Silva. He's like, fucking, where'd this guy come from? The Knicks, they're a half game behind the Celtics. All the Celtic fans I know, including myself, are very focused on it. They have two players playing just out of control. Fantastic. I want to talk about them in a little bit. The big thing for them is they got Bridges going. I remember saying at the start of the year, I don't know, three weeks in. I was like, What was the point of this Bridges trade if they're just going to make him this accessory that stands in the corner? This is a really good offensive player. We've watched him carry a Nets team a couple of years ago, and they would actually run crunch time stuff. Why are they just sticking them over there. You look at his November stats, he was 14.7 points a game, 29% from three. In November, 15 games. How many free throws What do you think he took?

He should average two a game, so I'd say 30.

Yeah, he took six. I look at that and I'm just like, You're just playing in this guy in the corner. That was what the eye test was backing him up. But in December, it really seems like they tried to get him involved. He had that big day last week, but he's at 21 and a half a game now. He's moved into that, him and Ananobi, sharing that number three score thing. Some of that's predictable, but some of it would seem pretty bleak for him in November. It's like, What are we doing with this guy, especially with everything you gave up? Now, I think they've figured out at least the four. The thing that worries me about them is there's going to be a couple of buyout guys in Burberry, and that's a number one buyout candidate team because you're going to a team that has a chance to make the finals, you're going to play, you get to be in New York City. If I'm making buyout destination, if I'm whoever, I'm looking at them.

It's too bad there's not a Villanova center that they could put next to town. So I don't think they have.

Who else is on that team? Is Chris Jenkins available?

That's exactly right. But that's it in all seriousness. I love OKC because they have two different frontcourt looks when Chet's right and Hardenstein's right. I feel like that's the weakness right now, especially against Porzengus or Yannis. They need, and I'm not sure what Mitchell Robinson is going to bring come playoff time, but if they could get a real sturdy five, they're not going to get a go bear, but just a traditional five that could let them go big, play big against some of these rim pressuring teams, especially in Milwaukee or Philadelphia. I think they're in great shape. Now, their defense is already, I think it's number two in the last 10 games. They've won nine of those 10 games. Their defense is good. If they really want to get over the Hump bill, I think they need to have a couple of different looks in that front court. Right now, that's the weakness with towns only. Maybe a little Mitch Robinson in there. I think they need Ms. Hardenstein. Somebody like that, if they could get on the buy-out market or even in a trade market, somebody could come in and give them a traditional five up front.

I want to keep going on the next, but it's We'll take a break. All right, two more things on the next that tie into what you said about why this has been a good season in the All Positive NBA podcast. We have to keep going on this. One, towns. Last two years, 21, 8 rebounds. It's 50/40 guy. I felt like he had maxed out from a potential standpoint, but it was hard to tell how much had to do with Gobert being on the court with him. He was always 25 feet from the basket on offense. Ant was starting to have the ball a lot. It was like, well, maybe on this next team, there's a case. If you're playing him as the stretch five, but he also has this rebounding block shop burden, maybe there's something else here. Well, there's something else here. He's 24.5 points, 13.5 rebounds, 55% field goal, 45% from three. I test-wise, the most fun I've had watching him, and the concerns we had in the summer about, This guy in New York, I don't know, man. He's a little weird. There's a version of this where this goes bad. It's been the opposite.

I think this is... Actually, they brought out the best in him, and I think they've really responded to him. I think they a great fan base. I think they understand, let's constantly get this guy going. Let's really be super, duper, super, duper supportive of him. It's working. This is the most fun I've had watching him play basketball on top of the Brunson piece and how good those guys are playing off each other already. And that's only going to get better as the season goes. So gigantic win. Did you see this from towns? Had you given up?

No, this team, this front office has made me feel dumb over and over I didn't love the Brunson deal. I didn't hate it by any means, but I certainly didn't see that coming. And then the trade, I thought I'd like to trade better for Minnesota. Yeah. Hand up. And credit to Towns, credit to Leon Rose, credit to Tom Thibodeau. They've won that trade, I think, hands down. The Bridges trade, again, looked like a disaster there for a few weeks. I'm not sure I love it to this point, given how much they gave up. But this team now looks very good, and all those transactions look great. The Bridges' one, I'll reserve some judgment for it until we fully see it. But Towns, I didn't see this. I was worried about him in the New York media as well. I'm still worried about him as the primary interior defender in the playoffs. Like I said, I think that's a fair point to hold back. But Towns and company have proved me wrong. They built this team in an era where trades and free agents, they're less powerful than ever, and the best team teams tend to be building with the draft more.

The New York Dicks built this team from other teams' players, and it's very good. And I think they deserve credit for it, but it's working very well, Bill.

They took a real gamble with how expensive that deal was. We talked about it last summer. I didn't love the deal for either team. It made more sense from a talent standpoint for the Knicks, but the money was so disarming. You just look at it, you're like, Man, if we miss on this, there's no moves up, We are now pushing all the chips in, but it worked out, and it's been great. I really like Towns, even though he's such a dumb ass sometimes on the court. Roussel and I would always make fun of him during the playoffs because he would just get the fifth foul in the third quarter and the worst 40 feet from the basket, just bumping over somebody on a pick. But he seems like a good guy, and by all accounts, he is. You could see when he came back to Minnesota, what he meant to the franchise, but just how his next teammates reacted to him in Minnesota when they showed the video. It's just clearly really liked. I'm just glad it worked out because we've seen this league, a lot of these guys, sometimes when it feels like they can go either way from a talent standpoint, sometimes it goes the wrong way.

You look at Zion right now. Leading to the second thing, this I also love about the league in the All Positive NBA podcast. Dallas not locking up Jalen Brunson, leads to this amazing sliding doors, dominoes situation. It leads to Brunson in New York and all of these other things that happen with them where they become a really fun, legitimate contender for a fan base that's needed it for 20 years. It eventually leads to Kyrie in Dallas and him rejuvenating his career. Being one of the 15 to 20 most fun guys to watch in the league again, I given up on that. It happened. It caused a Brooklyn rebuild because Kyrie had a chance to go to Dallas. So that leads to whatever and them trading Kyrie and KD. So why is the Brooklyn build important. Because Donovan Mitchell, who wanted to go to New York City, and I will die on that hill, had nowhere to go. Brunson goes to the next, becomes the guy. Well, he can't go there. Brooklyn sucks. Well, What am I going to go there for? It's like, you know what you got. You don't know what you don't have.

He's looking around this Cleveland team and it's like, Man, this team's really good. Maybe I should stop thinking about what's next and just lock it down here. Signs extension, now they become a legitimate contender. That team falls into place. That team's super selfless. Honestly, as weird as it sounds, I think it starts with the Brunson thing. Now we have a next legitimate contender. We have Kyrie as a piece of a The Finals team last year. We have the Cavs as a legitimate contender, and Brooklyn as the most fun summer team next summer.

Yeah, that's a great take. I love that. And I think the Western conference talent, like Brunson, Donovan Mitchell, and Towns, going from West to East. We talked about how the Celtics are the favorites, but the Eastern Conference needed a talent infusion. And I think these transactions bolstered, again, the Cavaliers or a story of Donovan Mitchell going of Cleveland. And then this next team has two really big Western Conference imports at the top of the box score every night. So I think those transactions, that's a great point. So now who can we get from the Western Conference to move East next, Phil? I mean, it's like there's so much more- Zion.

There you go.

Who can save Zion?

One other thing with Brunson, and then you're up next with positive. I'm just in disbelief how good Brunson is. And I think we take it for granted now in a way because he just does it night after night with this herky-jerky, these different spots of the court, his ability, even at the end of games, to always get the shot he wants. The crunch time stats with him are out of control. Like John Schumann had in his power rankings thing yesterday that Brunson, he was on a crunch time streak where his usage rate was 46%, which is like '98 Finals, Jordan, not as high as that. Over and over again, teams know what they're going to do, and he gets the shot he wants. I actually liked the signing for them when they got him because I really like Brunson. I also never in a million years thought he was going to be this good. I thought he could be the piece of a really good team. Maybe the best guard on a contender. Not this. You watch him night to night, and all the other guys makes sense as awesome crunch time guys. Even somebody like Shay, it's very old school.

He's either going to get to the rim or he's to get his little 12 to 15 spot. I've seen that. There are guys in the '70s that did that. The Brunson thing, I don't know if I've seen before, his arsenal of weird shots and herky-jerky. He'd be a fucking nightmare to defend. Anyway, I wanted to mention that.

Yeah, he's also a great rebuke of the idea that everybody plays the same. Here's this undersize guard going and playing two feet in the paint like John Woodman as his coach, doing all these pivots and drop steps and floaters and pull He's just so talented and so smart. He didn't get the Kevin McKeel footwork as a guard in the paint. It's brilliant to watch. But, dude, if the Mavs knew that this guy was going to be putting up 50 in playoff games, I think they would have had a different whiteboard strategy before they let him go. I think he would still be in Dallas. Nobody saw this coming. I don't think the Knicks knew he could do this. And, of course, they should say they did. But, man, he's been a revelation. And the other thing I'd say just on the Knicks is it's not only they're good, you mentioned this earlier, the vibes are immaculate and they're fun. They're a fun group of guys. It's a fun team to watch. Might be hard for a Celtics fan to admit, but it's a neutral- No, I like the Knicks because they're fans.

They have great fans, and they have a great building, and the league's better when the Knicks are involved.

I hope we see Jalen Brunson playing your team in the conference semis between Boston and New York. That would be absolutely dream come true for the Eastern Conference playoff this year.

It's an awesome, awesome, awesome matchup. The fear for me is just the miles they've had to put on Al Horford already combined with Porzingas, who just can't seem to play two games in a row. I think the Celts match up great with them. In a way, that's probably the team the Knicks wouldn't... I would think definitely the team the Knicks wouldn't want to face because they just have these guards that they can throw at Brunson. They can counter towns with their own stretch fives, and then they have these wings that are better than the Knicks wings. But we might not ever see that Celtics team this year. Again, this is the all-positive NBA pod, but you really need luck with health. They had luck with Jalen and Tatum all decade. They got luck with Porzingas for the most part, they were able to get to the playoffs and get just enough out of them to make it. They got luck with White and Horford. We know with the NBA, you can't count on that year to year. Give Give me another one. Give me an all positive.

The future is French, Bill Simmons. The future is French, and it's temporarily stationed in San Antonio, Texas. Victor Wembenyama. We have LeBron James at age 40. We have Nicola Wemby Jokich turning 30 in a few days or a month, I think. And Wemby is 20. And Wemby is giving us a very clear next up. It doesn't mean he'll be the only one, but this dude is special. There's no other way to look at it. Everything is clicking. He was very high, like LeBron coming in. But I think Victor Wemenyama is poised to be the next greatest player in the NBA at some point in the next five years.

I couldn't agree more. The gold medal game was a great sign by him. The Christmas Day, Nicks game was a great sign by him. I had him down as well for the draft. I wrote down Wembe's slow burn into a potential monster crunch time guy. Wemby, to me, has turned into when I'm home watching NBA, if he's in the fourth quarter and it's close, he's on a TV now. That wasn't the case last year. Last year, it was more of like, That team's a mess. It really makes me mad that I don't have a point guard. If he does something cool, I'll see it on social media. This year, it's like now that Chris Paul, which go figure, they needed a point guard, and he's He's almost my age, but still knows what to do, how to get him the ball in the right spots. But his last 18, he's 29 and 10. Good sign. 50, 40, 87, 4.1 blocks a game. The nitpick is 4.6 free throws a game versus 11 threes a game. That's going to be the tilt that I'm watching for at the end of these games, because what's so much fun to watch in these crunch times is where they get in the ball and then what he does.

He still has that... Sometimes he plays lower than his size. He'll do these turnarounds where he's fallen down. I think once he eventually realizes, just, I'm going to get 8 feet from the basket, get me the ball. I'm taller than everyone. I'm just going to get a good shot. But it's really fun watching him figure it out. Now, the last time, I'm going back 40 years, but Samson, the first couple of years on the Rockets and Wembenyama Pretty similar offensively, except for the three-point shooting. But Samson had the same stuff. He was just figuring out what his body was. He had some really good stuff. He was always around the rim in big moments, and he was nice around the foul line, and then he got hurt. We never saw where it was going to go. With Wemby, the thing that I'm watching for as the season keeps going. They're a 500 team. We had them, I think, under 35 for the season. They're clearly going to be in the playoff makes because he's just too good. They also have some trades to make potentially. But what I want to watch from him is the last 5, 6, 7 minutes of the game.

Where are your shots coming from? Are you just going to settle for threes? Are you going to start figuring out, I need to be six, seven feet from the basket and around the rim on rebounds and stuff like that. What have you been watching from him with the evolution of that over the last year?

He is so much more comfortable on the basketball court, specifically on the offensive of end. I still think the biggest growth there is in the two-point area as well. I think he needs to have a couple of just signature moves, not a Sambor shuffle, not necessarily Euro Step, but he should be able to develop some footwork. We talked about Brunson. If he had a little bit more footwork and some go-to moves, we can all picture Michael or Kobe go into one of their go-to shots, Dirk. What's that going to be for him? I don't know what that is, but once he gets it, look out. So I'm watching that. He He turns 21 this week. Nobody in League history has ever had an average three made three.

That's fucking crazy. How is he not 21 yet? Him and my daughter's boyfriend turning 21 in the same week. That's just nuts to me.

Yeah. Nobody's ever made Three threes on average three blocks a game. He's at four blocks and easily three threes. So that's his signature thing. He's going to be a three-point shooter. But what can he do inside the arc, I think, is where his big growth area is. I think I think he'll also usher in, you alluded to this, a new rivalry in FIBA. I know it's a little early, but like 2027 World Cup, 2028 Olympics. France is going to be loaded, and they're going to be younger, and he's going to be great. I think there's going to be a new France-USA rivalry in these big competitions.

I love True Patriot, Kirk Goldsparry is one of my favorite Kirk Goldsparry. Always keeping an eye on the gold medal in FIBA.

Well, I work for Team USA I'll say I love international basketball. Fiba is a great product. I think we all enjoyed the Olympics. I remember talking to RC Buford after the Olympics. And I say, RC, what was that like? He was like, the perfect outcome. Wemby almost won. So he's coming angry, and my country won. So a lot of Spurs people love that he almost won, but not quite. And I think he has a chance when he's, what, 23, 24 to do what Manu did, which is upset Goliath on the international stage and really become a special, different level international player. But ultimately, as it relates to this season, they're better than I thought they were largely because of him, Bill. I do think they're where LeBron was in year two, a dicey playoff team. Nobody expects much, but ahead of schedule. So I think the Spurs are thrilled with where he is.

But a team that makes more sense than those first couple of years of LeBron teams. I mean, he inherited such a bad roster those first couple of They spent three years just trying to extricate themselves from these awful roster decisions. I think that '06 season was the first time. I was like, All right, this looks like a team that LeBron should have. Wemby is further along. They have some possible trade stuff if they wanted. My big thing, if they made me the Wemby consultant, he needs to figure out where his three spots on the floor are. I thought this was something when Duncan came into the league, and he came in as a finished product almost because he had been in college for four years, but he had his spots. He had right block, jump hook. He had that left a little bit further away, 10, 11 feet, where he could shoot that bank shot or drive him to the lane, hit the I thought he knew where his spots were. Wemby's spots are basically the three-point line, and then he's showing signs of a possible Dirk foul line, something. But I don't know if he even knows what it is yet.

Remember how it took Dirk to just figure out top of the key, this is my domain now. I'm now grabbing this and taking it. For me, the Wemby spot, I think, would be the left block where he could either shoot a bank shot or a little 10-footer or go into the lane with a little running jump hook. I don't know how you would defend it, but he hasn't figured that out yet.

Yeah, I haven't never thought about it in these terms, but it's like, okay, post-play is dead. Here comes the best big man of a generation. How is he going to get two points shots. And I love the Timmy, the bank shot from the left side. And Bede is the free throw line, face-up guy.

And Bede is a good one. Bede took eight years to figure out where his spot was, and it's free throw line.

Yeah, and I don't know. There's no manual. There's no George Micken tutorial video on how to drop a step and get a half hook because we're not doing that anymore. So it's a cool thing. Again, in the All Positive podcast is like, how is this guy going to figure it out? He clearly has the tools, but there's no manual to learn from here. Maybe it's MB a little bit, maybe it's Jokić a little bit, but I think he has a higher ceiling as a scorer. Is it crazy than those guys do near the basketball hoop. So I don't know how he's going to get there. But that is, I think we're vibing on that. That's the same thing. What is his signature two-point move going to be, Bill?

I like the foul line area for him, too, because we saw it with Dirk, we saw it with Embiid, we've seen him with a couple of others. Just because it's really hard to send a second guy, you can almost create enough space there where you can pass to either corner. You got a guard over there, so maybe that'll be it. I'd love to see them find one more guy, just for the record.

All right. Well, and I just say, one last thing, shout out to Brian Wright and RC and all those guys for getting grown up That. Like Harrison Barnes and Chris Paul, it really did let this happen. So they do have another level to get to, and it's going to require some good front office craft to build this team around him.

They have to be staring at Fox a little bit.

I agree.

That would be the guy I would be at least having a meeting about when we get back after New Year's. Like, all right, hey, guys, 1:30. We're going to have our one and a half hour at the Aaron Fox meeting, and We've had our best three scouts watch this last 20 games. What would this look like with my MBA? You got to talk that out and really figure it out because this is a top 20 guy that might become available in a month. My next one for the All Positive NBA podcast, and I couldn't be more delighted. I've already talked about them on the pod in the past, so we don't have to spend too much time on it. But the Atlanta Hawks graduating from fantasy team that just made trades that Woody Johnson's kids would make for the Jets, and we were like, We'll just put DeJante Murray and Trey Young together. By the way, a trade that I liked when they did it. At the time, I thought DeJante Murray still played defense, but came to find out he didn't. The way they crafted this team, putting Trey with all these wings and all these interchangeable guys on defense who can help him in some ways, or the Daniels-Murry trade, which was the trade of the year and maybe the trade of the last couple of years.

The Risa Shea pick who... I just really like Risa Shea. I liked him in the preseason. I like him during the season. He's 19 years old. He's playing 24 minutes a game. I don't know if you saw their comeback against Indiana when they scored 50 in the fourth quarter. Risa Shea was a big part of that. They have two centers who basically can just rebound and finish lobs, and that's it. It's a team that was architected, I'm going to make up that word correctly. I just want to appreciate the moment because so many... Look at the Kings. You go the other way, we could talk about them in the all-negative NBA pod. But the Kings doing all the fantasy basketball. It was like, DeMar DeRosa maybe has stuff left in the tank and on and on and on. Now they're a mess. Atlanta, just really smartly crafting a team that can exact the most out of Trey Young because they knew they didn't really have a chance to... Trey Young had no value anymore. They weren't going to be able... You're basically just selling them off for $0.40 on the dollar. All the moves they made were great.

The fact that Hunter turned out to be a guy belatedly, I just really like the team. They're 18 and 15 now, and I think they're a team that's not going to be a playing team. I think they're going to be one of the six playoff teams.

I see the same thing for them. They're 11 and 4 in their last 15, playing pretty good on both sides of the ball. Landry Fields, Kyle Corver, great front-office moves. I think the DeJante trade. The original one, it didn't turn out very well. But then getting the edit undue and getting back Dyson Daniels and draft capital has completely refreshed the outlook in Atlanta. I think Trey Young still has something to give. He's a terrific offensive player. If you surround him with four great defensive players, you have a chance to be able to hide him on the defensive end. And that's what this current block of wings lets them do. Obviously, Dyson Daniels deserves all the shine for defensive player of the year, candid to see. He is a great- Did you see this with him? No, I don't think New Orleans did either. Again, it's like Brunson. If freaking New Orleans knew they had this, they would have straighted him. So I don't think anybody knew it. He was always interesting in the draft because he had the size and the athleticism and this quirky playmaking thing. But I don't think anybody knew he could do this.

I don't think Atlanta knew he could do this.

It just didn't seem like he could shoot It always seemed like he had quick hands and he was something. But this is crazy to watch. You could argue just Murray for Daniels would have made sense. But it was really interesting watching him guard LeBron a couple of weeks ago.

Yeah. I mean, LeBron got him on that chase down block.

Yeah, that was the one guy where it was like, okay, well, maybe you might be the best defensive perimeter guy in the league, but if somebody is 6'9, 2'70, that might still be a problem for you. But it seems like Everybody else. Where he's really tough and what the Knicks should watch out for is if we get Knicks, Hawks in a round one. And Daniels on Brunson is bad for the Knicks. That's just flat out not good.

Oh, and don't forget Trey Young, in the Dice on the Nicks logo, and he loves going up to that building. Again, the Eastern Conference, here we are again. Positive podcast. The Eastern Conference is not the dumpster fire we thought it was early in the season, Bill. Atlanta, 11 and 4 in their last 15. Dyson Daniels has recharged their defensive identity. They have Richa Shea. They're letting him grow. Deandre Hunter, as you mentioned, is great. A Konglu. They just have an identity. Quinn Snyder I deserve some love here, too. Figuring it out on the fly and maybe finding a play-off- Is there some love for his wardrobe and his look, too?

Every time they cut him in the sidelines, I'm like, Is this a bit? What's he doing?

What does Jacobi call it, the Sally Jesse Fjell glasses. I think the Great Barrier Thief is one of the great nicknames in the contemporary- I couldn't agree more.

Great Barrier Thief is... I don't know who came up with that, but kudos. Can I give you... What do you think Atlanta's are under as I'm fando right now? They're 18 and 15.

So win.

So win. Because they update the wins. What do you think? Because I bet this twice, and I might go back for thirds. What do you think it is right now?

43 and a half.

42 and a half.

I'll take the over, I guess.

To me, they are top six teams. Right now, it's Cleveland, Boston, Knicks, zombie Magic at 2014, Atlanta's fifth, and Milwaukee's sixth, because they've had the Dame Atlanta stuff. So they're only 16 and 14. Then underneath them is Miami, Indiana, Chicago, Detroit. Philly, lurking now at 13 and 17 with a chance to get to 500. We'll see. They have a tough schedule in January. I'll be I'm interested to see how many games Abit actually plays, but I think Atlanta is going to be a top six team.

Quick Philly interview. What is your takeaway from that Christmas game as a Boston guy?

I just thought Philly played that game like it was a game seven. And Boston played it like it was another game in the schedule, and it's going to happen. I didn't take that much away from it.

I think that's a great point. I think that's what Boston, they're going to get that every night. Indiana got them. Again, they're getting everybody's best welcome to a title of This is one of the reasons it's hard. Everybody's like, Okay, let's bring our A game.

I don't think they were ready for what was going to happen. Here's the Celtic stretch coming up that I'm going to be really interested in. Thursday at Minnesota, Friday at Houston, Sunday at Oklahoma City, Tuesday at Denver. We're going to have a much better idea after those games. They'll play two awesome games, probably have one shitty game, and then one either or a game would be my guess. But last year, they would have ripped through and won all four of those games. That's the difference with last year's team had a chip on its shoulder. They wanted to rip through the schedule. Every time they lost, it felt like an accident. This year, we'll see. Could they go One, four on those? I wouldn't be surprised. Let's take a break, and then I have a couple more for you. All right, the All Positive NBA podcast returns with Kurt Goldsbury. His next one, what do you got?

Inside the NBA is Perfect Sports And we've seen it be saved from potential doom. It was doomed, Bill Simmons. The Inside the NBA was left for dead there for a few months. And I got a chance to visit with those guys in Atlanta when I was doing those data cast. And I love it. I think I speak for millions of NBA fans. Unlike the NFL, unlike Major League Base, NBA fans have this incredible pre and post game show. And I think there was world's worst take a couple of weeks ago that it was actually bad for the NBA. That's terrible. Charles Barkley is probably the GOAT sports media guy since Madden, probably. I just love that we have this Turner crew and this Antique crew, and I'm happy that we're going to have it going forward.

I have no notes. I do worry about them a little bit with how ESPN does basketball and whether they'll have enough time to actually do content before, during, and after games. Yeah, I think I share some of that concern as a veteran. I think the Turner people share some of that concern, too. All right, my next one for the All Positive NBA pod. Brooklyn as an old-school tanking Trade Machine team. They said it couldn't be done with the second apert era. They said the Picasso, the Trade Machine, wouldn't be able to paint during February. Well, guess what? Brooklyn's already made two trades. They have this giant Ben Simmons expiring. They have a determined thing to be bad. They have Kam Johnson, who I think there's going to be a little bit of a fun bidding war, and he actually has a tradable contract. Don't sleep on nick Claxton. Maybe he's a contract in the low mid 20s as a rim protector, alley-up guy. Could Atlanta turn Capella into nick Claxton? I don't even know if that makes them better, but there's stuff like that floating around with them. But then big picture, if they do this correctly, let's say, I think they're definitely trading Cam Johnson.

He's 28 years old. They should. They definitely want to get worse. If they also traded Claxton, they'd be like $120 million under the cap heading into the summer, which now gives everybody leverage. Somebody like Jimmy Butler or Miami is like, Where are you going to go? He's like, Well, I actually do have a place to go. It's right there. It's Brooklyn. They become leverage for Zion. Basically, they become the island of misfit toys for every player and team that we don't know what they're going to do this summer. I really appreciate that they exist, because if they didn't, I don't know what we would do for fake trades.

It's like Walmart on Black Friday, the Brooklyn Nets. It's great. The Brooklyn Nets in January of 2025. 50% off.

Cam Johnson, right now, lightning deal.

But to Sean Marks' credit, one of the worst things that could happen to a front office is these trade demands. And he lived through one of them, and they got So they back these pieces, Bill. And now they're able to spin it off into future team building resources. So I know they want to keep their draft pick. I had one of the team sources say, hey, if we start win and watch out, we're going to start trading players. That's what they've done already. Schroeder is out. And I think Cam Johnson is out. I guess-Fannie Smith is gone. I shouldn't say that. Yeah, I should say, Cam Johnson is likely...

Everybody could-Cam Johnson is on his way out. They're trading Kim Johnson.

Slide them into any team in the league, they get better. And Klaxton, I agree with. Ben Simmons, I don't think so, but maybe that would be a Sean Marks' masterpiece. But I think they're not done. And I think Klaxton and Cam Johnson are the ones to watch. Maybe even Kam Thomas for somebody like the Houston Rockets that don't have a go-to score. But I definitely think Kam Johnson is the number one player to watch on the trade market right now.

Well, you mentioned this on the Ringer NBA show yesterday. There's also a really fun scenario where Cam Thomas is the only guy left just shooting 40 shots a game. It's just the perfect... Can Kam Johnson average... Could he basically do Kobe 2006 for the last two months of the season? I still let him take for view. Kam Thomas has 81 It's...

Oh, my God. I still let him take from you. I still let him from you. I think when you saw the scoring and title odds at the beginning of the year, you were high on Cam Thomas. Don't count him out. Don't count them out. He could shoot 40 times a game a few times down the stretch here.

What do you have for your next one?

I think we have to talk about Nicole Jokić, dude. I think- Twist my arm.

Ten years ago- I got a text yesterday, and a friend of mine was like, Hey, you have Jokić on a TV, right? He has a chance to get a 40 lead 2010. I'm like, I'll put him on now. I wasn't going to watch Denver, Utah. There were better games, but fine.

I feel like they should broadcast games differently for the Nuggets because I just want to watch Jokić. I just want a Jokuj camp the whole game, particularly on offense.

Like the 22 man in football where they just have a wide shot just focused on him doing stuff? Yeah.

Yeah. Like the NBA 2K, my player. But I think he's about to turn 30. We have Wembley at 20, LeBron at 40. This is the guy in his prime right now. If you would have told me 10 years ago at the midpoint of the 2010s, Spurs are defending champs, Warriors are about to take the lead by storm. If you would have told me in that time that the best player in the world in the mid part of the 2020s was the giant Serbian center who's not Not very fast, not quick. I would have said you were crazy. But one of the things I love about an NBA basketball bill is you don't know what the next thing is going to be. And you've alluded to this, I think, in your NBA ratings monolog. It's like, we don't know what's going to happen in this league. And I think he's a perfect embodiment of one of those unicorn moments. We're like, what? This guy is going to come along. Here's a stat. He's currently averaging more points per game than Shaq ever did in his entire career, more rebounds per game than Tim Duncan ever did did in his entire career.

He is averaging more assists per game than Chris Paul has ever done in his entire career. And he's making 49% of his threes, which is like Kyle Corver numbers. This is insanity. Watch him, people. This is the best show in pro basketball.

Yeah, right now, third in assists, second in points, third in rebounds. Where is he on the... What's he shooting on the threes now? It's down 49 %. He's leading the league in three. He's 49 %. So second in points, third rebounds, third assists, first in three-point shooting. It's fucking crazy. It'll never happen again.

It's like an NBA 2K, make your own player thing, and you move all the bars to 99, except for rim protection and fitness or whatever.

But you made the guy chubby. I have some quick ones. The Pistons are not the Pistons anymore. The Pistons were so sad for so long, and now they're a fun watch. I would rank them as my stealth, most fun Eastern Conference watch behind the Hawks. Cade, I think, is one of the 16 or 17 has to be on the All-Star team, guys, for what he's doing night to night. They also have an interesting trade bait piece that I'm not sure they even think about doing this year. Maybe they do, but they have Harris and Hardaway at 41 million combined. They have all kinds of flexibility in all kinds of directions. I'm just watching them because they're right around 500. The East is a little bit weird after that sixth spot. Kate is a guy. Ivy is completely Compared to when Monty Williams was playing Kylian Hayes over him. That's what a dramatic come around that's been. I like what they've done with Beazley and Harris and Hardaway. Just the same thing you talked about with San Antonio. We're just like, veterans who've been in the league for a while who know how to show up and just be professional.

But there's also like, Hey, could this be a Jimmy Butler out of nowhere team? Could this be just, Fuck it. Let's add Zack Levine to this. Could this be I don't know who. Go through the week, go find guys that might be... Could this be a Cam Johnson team? I feel like there's a trade for them, and I think they should do it because Cade's really, really, really good and way better than I thought he was going to be. I think he's an absolute guy. I would love to see them get one more guy.

Yeah, I love Kate Cunningham. I think he's finally clicked into what we thought he could be at the draft. And I agree. Coaching changes matter. And I think this new coach has brought in a new culture. That term is overused, but it just feels differently. I love B. U. Steu, by the way, is my favorite League Pass player. Isiah Stewart, you never know what's going to happen when he's out there.

Great bench I wish the Celtics had him.

But it's like Houston last year, there was something cooking, but we don't know what it is. Right.

Orlando two years ago. You can see the breadcrumbs to something really good happening with them. And I think they've at least reached that point. Okc a couple of years ago.

Yeah. The thing I always say, Bill, is the road from bad to good always has to go through average or mediocre on the way. And that's where they are. And that's a good sign. This is where they wanted to be this This year, and again, like the Spurs, they're a little bit better than we thought. I think they should be excited about the next couple of years in Detroit.

Goldsbury, they just did this trip. They did a three-game trip at Phoenix at Lakers, at Kings. Wone all of them. It had a dramatic come from behind win against the Kings, too. That's one. I wanted to mention the Pistons. I wanted to mention the zombie magic really quick. They're 20 and 14. Paulo has played five games. He's really played four and a half games because he got hurt. Franz has played 25 games, really 24 and a half because he got hurt. They're shooting 30.8% from three. They are running crunch time plays for Tristan De Silva and Jalen Sugs. They lost Mo Wagner, who you'd be like, Oh, they lost Mo Wagner. Mo Wagner was important for them. They're 20 and 14, and they're just hanging around. They're a really hard team to play. They beat the Celtics last week, and I'm watching it going, I don't understand how we're going to lose this game. But it made sense when you were watching it because Orlando was just ready for the challenge, playing super hard. Moseley, to me, I wasn't sure about Moseley, but what he's getting out of that team. Atkinson is the coach of the year favorite, but I think Moseley, this team finishes with 46 647 wins, not having Palo, not having Franz.

That's fucking insane. So he's got to be in there.

I left them for dead two or three times. Oh, okay. They can't do this without Palo. How could you not? Then Franz shows up, and then Franz goes out, and then they start. Sugs is the guy. And now they lose Mo. They made a run in the in-season tournament. Look, if they get whole before the Eastern Conference playoffs, I don't care if you're Cleveland, Boston, or New York. Nobody Nobody wants to see that.

Nobody wants to have to score against those things. That's the worst case there. Yeah, the worst case there are eight seed. If you're the one seed, you're like, Really? These guys, now they're healthy? Because I assume Palo and Franz will be back. So I wanted to mention them. What do you have? Because I have two more.

Well, I think this will segue. I think the magic and the Rockets and the Thunder is reminding us that the NBA is a young man's game. But on the flip side of that, superstars are aging racefully, but in a weird way. We're able to go see LeBron. I was able to take my family to see LeBron in San Antonio this year, Stephen, Katie. As a Larry Bird scholar, Magic Johnson scholar, it's not always You don't always get to see these guys after 35. And I think one of the cool things is we can go see LeBron James in 2025, and we can go see Kevin Durant and Stephen Curry in their late '30s. And it's not like a nostalgia act. These guys are great. What LeBron and Stephen did on Christmas, and I know you talked about it, was awesome. They might not be championship contenders. But again, in terms of the depth of League Pass offering, some of these old dudes are bringing special things to lead pass on a regular basis. And 37-year-olds aren't necessarily dead weight anymore. And I think that's great for the league.

I would throw in Chris Paul, too. I had, actually, for the all-positive, playing off that. The fact that the Lakers aren't a disaster. I'm going to remove my abject hatred for the Lakers and the Yankees, the two teams I hate the most. It's also not good when the Lakers are bad. It's the same thing we talked about the Knicks. The league's just more fun when the Lakers are competent or good. Even I would admit that, and I can't stand them. There was a moment when this seemed like this season was going to get really dark, and that this LeBron season was going to get dark, this season was going to get dark, the JJ thing was going to get dark. The defense was absolutely abominable. They rallied around it and passed it. Lebron going away for eight days. I think the schedule really helped. They really lucked out right as things were creating and all of a sudden, we had that NBA Cup thing. They've had some good schedule luck. They got to play Sacramento three times, right as Sacramento was completely falling apart. But I feel like they've saved this a little bit. The fact that Max Christie's a competent rotation guy now.

He wasn't a month ago. The fact that they were able to get Finney Smith for basically giving up nothing, they're not going to be bad, I guess, is my point. I think if you're talking about, I don't want to watch LeBron on an awful team. This guy carried the league this century. At least they're relevant, I guess, is my point. I think them just sucking and not having their pick, it's just a dark story. At least that's not going to happen. And now I think I want to pour gasoline on myself and set myself on fire. That I just praise them. That's fine.

Well, in the all-positive NBA podcast, I think the NBA is a collection of markets. And when LA and New York are relevant, it's good. It's good for television. It's good for matchups like Celtics.

It's also good because they're on fucking national TV all the time because those are the teams they put on. So we might as well have them be good over terrible.

And one of the things that Brian Windhorse always talks about is the league also He always backloads LeBron's second half of the schedule. He always has a lot of national TV games after football ends, so they could have a really tough go. But I think they have another trade to make. I love Dorian Finney-Smith there. It took three years too long to get an actual three-point shooting wing back in his life. I still think they're one or two pieces away. But if they have luck with health, I believe in JJ Redik as a coach. I believe in LeBron James as somebody can figure out how to adore through this marathon season and get to the playoffs in one piece. Anthony Davis is the biggest question mark. If they can add one, maybe two more pieces around those guys, again, nobody wants to see them in the playoffs.

I think people want to see them in the playoffs. I wouldn't mind seeing them in the playoffs. The question for me is, did I want to see them at all during the season? And now at least we can say, All right, this is a fun team.

I Yeah.

Come on. In the playoffs, I want to see them. They're not making like round three in the playoffs. Come on.

Ask me again to the All-Star break. Okay. Get me to the All-Star break. I think there's a potential for either answer there. Admittedly, I don't think Memphis would be scared if it showed up.

Lebron is too old. I don't see him being able to... Once we get into the part of the schedule or you have to play like every other, I just don't see it. I don't see how he would have the energy net. We saw in the beginning when they were playing in big minutes. He lasted a month. He had to take an eight-day sabbatical. Davis is the one, maybe he could throw the team on his back. Fittie Smith, I thought his quotes were really interesting after the trade. He's a really smart player. He's the guy that's worked well with LeBron, where he was talking about how they used him in Brooklyn, and it was a lot of top of the key threes and a lot of him with the ball. He's like, I'm actually better off if I'm in the corner. That was when I was at my best with Luca. Now I get to go back to that. I was like, All right, this guy, this would be a good one for them. I have another one for you. This is mostly positive. There's a negative component to it, but I don't want to focus on that.

Zion trades. This has been a big topic on text and talking to different people who know things and people involved with teams. What is on as a trade asset? What's he worth? Would you do it? Is this salvageable? Like that, ESPN wrote a piece about it this week about how goofy his deal is. Basically, it's not guaranteed for the last three years, but you can keep picking it up. It's almost like an NFL contract with no real salary cap ramifications. Somebody's going to talk themselves into it. If you're New Orleans, you probably have to cut bait at some point. And I think it's going to be a really fun story over the next six weeks, which is why I put it in the all-positive NBA storyline, because I still think Zion is incredibly talented. I think he plays for the single worst franchise you could play for in the NBA at this point. I want to see him go to a place that will treat him like a plant and water him every day and put him in the sun and put little chemicals and try to help him grow versus where he is now, which is the worst situation you can be in.

Would you trade for Zion?

It depends on who I am. I think if risk were a human being, it would wear number one on its New Orleans jersey. I think that's what we're looking at. There's just so much risk there. If I'm a good team, no. If I feel good about my team now or in the next couple of years, I'm not going to give up anything relevant to bring in that risk. If I'm the Kings, if I'm the Blazers, I'm having very different conversations because I need something. I need an injection of something. And if that guy turns it around, Major If, he's one of the best players in the league. He's one of the best players in the league. The guy we've seen at his absolute peak is unstable in the pain.

Can't be the king.

Shaq, Giannis, and Zion, the top paint scores of the 21st century by season. He's that good. If he gets into some rhythm with availability and health and nutrition, it's worth looking. There's whiteboard discussions happening in struggling NBA front offices right now.

And yet that's not what can happen. He can't go to the Kings. He can't go to Portland. This goes back to my plan analogy. I get your point. Those franchises are like, Hey, this could be an incredible roll of the dice. To me, he has to go to an awesome organization that will really put some thought love and care into this. To me, it's Miami or San Antonio.

Miami makes a lot of sense.

If I'm Miami, this is the guy I'm really thinking about, especially if this Butler thing keeps going sideways and could it be a three-way or whatever? Could we get Zion? Could we save this? Could we salvage this? Could we turn him into an awesome asset? Is there a world two years from now where we have Bam and Zion and Tyler Hero, and that's our version of a big three because Hero has been fantastic this year. He's just a really, really elite offensive player now. You're not getting anywhere. If Michael Pina wrote about this today for the Ringer, if Bam and Hero are your two guys, you're not doing anything. You still need that awesome somebody. So Zion. And then San Antonio is one of those. If San Antonio traded for Zion, guess what the reaction in the league would be? Oh, shit.

Right.

That would be it. It's like, Oh, no. Wemby and Zion? Oh, no. I think those are the two teams. Maybe there's some others, but those are the two I was focused on. You sent him to Chicago, you sent him to Detroit. I don't know how it's different.

Yeah, it's super depressing because he still has a very high ceiling. A lot of front offices are simply not going to take the risk. It's a nonstarter for a a lot of the general managers around the league. We're not that risk in this NBA where you can't have one bad contract and compete for a championship. It seems like that's where we're going.

But the contract isn't nearly as risky is what makes this so fascinating. It's a risk, but it's also not a risk. It depends what you give up.

It's on guaranteed next year, something like that, right? And I think- There's weight stuff and there's game stuff where over and over again, you can get out of We'll see what happens.

But I just keep thinking of the teams that if they traded for him, what the reaction would be. In Miami and San Antonio are the two where people are like, Oh, fuck. Oh, man. They're going to figure this out with them. We've just seen it in the NBA. I don't know what else to do with that New Orleans team because Zincrum clearly has no trade value. As an expiring free agent, they would have traded them already. They're in a weird spot with CJ and DeJante, who they just traded for. They have all these pics. I don't know what they do.

They have really good tradable pieces beyond that. I don't know if they want to do that, but they got some shooters and some wing defenders that would make every team in the NBA look a little bit better. So if they want to press the explode button, I think they have some draft capital and maybe some young players they can get back.

And guess what? Nobody wants to go there. But now we're not being positive anymore. Do you have one more? Because I have two more.

This one is in jest, but I love the Washington Wizards because they let you see the GM's vision of every opponent. If your team is playing the Wizards, I recommend you go watch it because this is what the front office envisioned when they put their team together. Whatever they're going to get against the Wizards, clean looks, layups, great stops. I encourage everybody to go. It's almost like the Washington Generals, right? The Wizards are one of the best teams to go to watch right now at home. If your team is playing the Wizards at their home arena, go see it, folks. This is the best your team is going to look all year.

It's like scrimaging in a hotel conference Conference. What are those rooms called?

The draft workout video against the chair that you always call out. Yeah.

Well, playing off what you just said in the all-positive NBA draft, I love how weird the 2022 '94 draft is and how many guys I like? Risa Shay, mentioned him already. Steph Castle, all in. A little bit of a rookie while, what are you saying, but I'm all in. Messi on the Pelicans. He's a real center I think he's 15 years old, but he's definitely a real center who will get a big contract. Jared McCain, this Jalen Wells kid on Memphis. Zack Eady on Memphis, who's averaging 11 and You feel his presence in some of these games. There's matchups against certain teams where it's... I really liked him in the draft because I just felt like there's going to be games and nights where he just sucks to play against. It's like, we don't have a guy Porzingas is out tonight. Now we have Lou Carnet trying to stop Zack Eady. Dalton Connect. I like Donovan Clingon. Tristan De Silva was a pretty polarizing prospect, but I think he's been a borderline revelation on the magic. Bob Carrington, who a lot of people liked. I don't think Saur, I'm not willing to say he's a bust.

I think there's something there. I really like Bud Zellas. I don't know how much I've watched him on Chicago, but I almost feel like they have to trade Zach LaVine just to get him to play. I like the way that guy... I like how he runs the floor. I like how athletic he is. I like him. I think he's a little feisty. He's got a little chip on his shoulder. Then Ron Colin and Dylan him and Jacobi Walter, there's something there with all three of those guys. That's a lot of guys that I think all have a chance to be a starter in the NBA, which is basically what we're looking for in the draft. There's no high ceiling Superstar WENBI type version. But it's a fun draft. Do you like this draft or am I overreacting?

I think if you contextualize it like you did, yeah, I like it. I think it's going to go down in history as a relatively weak class, especially sandwiched by the Wemby draft and then what we're getting in the Cooper flag class. I love Steph Castle. I'm disappointed one player you didn't mention, Reid Sheppard, who I wanted to be better than him.

We just haven't really seen him yet.

Well, that's in a related story. He's not shooting the ball well. And if he's not shooting the ball well, it's hard for him to find justification to get minutes, especially in a Houston environment where they're trying to win games.

And they're trying to play defense, and they're two seeds, and they don't have time for a project. Hey, can you be Mark Price someday? They don't care. They want to win games.

Yeah. But when you're drafted that high bill, right? I don't care if you're two seed. That player, you're drafted in that slot, you should find a rotation minutes. But I've been disappointed by real. Yeah, it's a good point. I'm not done with him by any means. But I think the other players you mentioned, to Silva, I think is the one that jumps out. I was like, what? Okay. And again, this Orlando team, this culture, next man up mentality. He's great. Dalton Connect has been a big a piece of why the Lakers are above water right now. And Richie is going to be good. I think the Hawks made the right choice in retrospect. If we redrafted, it would be hard for me to put anybody above him right now. If you redrafted, would you go Richa Shea? If you're the Hawks, I think he fits into what they're doing, like we're talking about earlier.

For what they are and what they're trying to be, probably makes the most sense. I still really like Castle. I liked him the most heading into the draft. I just think he has it. That guy has all the... He checks all the boxes of what I want. The shooting, I think, will get there eventually. But for them, I think you're right. I think if you're just trying to have these interchangeable, tall, athletic dudes, he makes more sense for them. Check out Bud Zellis, though. I'm in on him. They might have actually stumbled into one of them. All right, here's another one I had for you. This is coming off. I took my daughter to the Clipper game the other night. I got to give them credit, man. That is the best NBA arena, hands down. Best atmosphere. Everything Balmer did where there's no TVs in the lobbies, there's no TVs in the clubs, there's no TVs when you're going buy a hot dog. Everything is built around. Get back in your seats. He wants people in there. He's got that whole section behind the court that really does. They start chance. They do all kinds of things.

There's more energy at those games than Laker games. They really have flipped this where the Lakers now look like they're the rinky dig franchise with the Staples Center, which is just old now and doesn't have the same vibe as this Clippers thing. This is the first time the Clippers have ever turned the tables on the Lakers and made them feel like they're just more modern and more on it. The Lakers still have bigger stars. But I'll tell you this, letting Paul George go over the third, fourth year thing. They did offer him three years, so I don't want to praise him too much. But not going for trying to patch it together with defense, role guys, flexibility, and then banking on Harden and Powell being able to carry all the offense, it works. Dan Gundia in the defense, it works. They're really well-coached, smart team that's taking advantage of this crazy, you mentioned earlier with aging superstars. Harden, this is the best he's looked in a while. I don't think he never has the ball too much. I think he's found the right balance of... He takes over when they need him, but he doesn't have it all the time.

And I think they're really hard. They win these games at the end of games. You watch the last five minutes, I feel like they're going to get stops. What they're getting from Zubots, who I just want to mention, was traded for Mike Escala by Magic Johnson and the Lakers, one of the worst trades of the last 10 years. But they have an actual home court advantage. I think they're a playoff team, and I was completely wrong on them. I thought they're going to suck. They're good.

I'll go one step further. There's a crazy what-if there. If Kawhi can be 88% of Kawhi Leonard for the last few months of the regular season, I love this team. I love their coach. James Harden remains somehow underrated Norman Powell has been a revelation. But if Kawhi Leonard can come back and have one really good five-month stretch here, that's a pretty dangerous team.

Yeah, because here are the minutes he's taking. He would be taking Koffie's playing almost 25 minutes a game. Porter was playing 20 minutes a game. Derek Jones said they're going to need even when Kawhi comes back. Then Batum was playing 18 minutes a game. They have minutes where it's just he's an immediate upgrade of this patchwork wings that they have. I'm with you. I'll tell you this, Body language doctor was really studying them. Happiest I've seen Kawhi on the bench in a couple of years. A lot of Kawhi Harden stuff during the timeouts. Kawhi at one point in the fourth quarter, Harden wasn't playing and they were talking during the timeout, and Kawhi was doing the exaggerated overlap thing with Harden. It seems like they actually like each other. The vibes were great. Everyone seems like they love Van Gunde. In general, I don't think they're going to go away, was my takeaway from what I've watched, but also seeing them in person. It was interesting. Golden State finally did the one thing I don't think teams realized that they should do it. Nobody on the Clippers can dribble. I don't know if you've noticed this.

They can dribble in the half court. Harden, obviously, could dribble, but nobody wants to dribble the first 50 feet of the court. It'll be like Chris Dunn, it'll be Harden who doesn't want to work at all. Norman Powell. They really don't have anybody. And I was with my daughter and we're watching them. I'm like, I don't understand why they won't press. I don't understand why people don't press the clippers. I'm saying that my daughter who barely knows anything about basketball. Then the worst started pressing in the fourth quarter, and they started getting all these turnovers. And she's like, Dad, how'd you know? And I was like, because nobody on the clippers could dribble. But that's their one weakness is they don't have that. I think pressure is an issue for them.

Let me ask you this, Do you feel like that arena will bring a homecourt advantage to those Clippers in the playoffs?

It already has. Yes. I do. I really do. Even that game, there were Warriors fans at that game Saturday night, but the Clipper fans were loud, and I think they liked the team. The Harden thing, I just can't believe because he was my least favorite player to see in person. I actually enjoyed the two games I've been to. I've actually enjoyed them. I was saying to the guy, Mike Tolan, I shared tickets with. I was like, I'm actually I'm not going to go to a bunch of Clipper games. I like going. I had a good time. The vibe's good. It's just a thumbs up. So Balmer, I don't know how much... What did he spend? However many billion dollars. It was fucking worth it because he's not the Black Sheep brother of the Staples Center anymore. He actually has good NBA dates, and there's a real vibe in the arena. So thumbs up. Great job, Clippers.

Yeah. You're tucking me into it. I think, yeah, I watch these Kawhi return games with newfound interest, maybe a dark horse in the West.

That's great for the all-positive NBA podcast. A Kawhi comeback to what already exists, if he can be healthy, it's just a really fun story. Kawhi, if you throw away the playoff last year, but before he got hurt beginning of last year, he looked like one of the 15 best guys in the league.

We've seen him in 2019, isn't that long ago. He put a team on his and got on there. He's not that guy anymore, but he can win a playoff game. He can play good defense, get rebounds, make big shots and crunch time. James Harden can create shots. But yeah, banking on, you have to be in an all-positive podcast, Bill Simmons, to bank on Kawhi's long-term health and James Harden's postseason. You really have to be in a positive environment to project them as a potential sleeper.

I think Harden, the word in the street is he's matured. With some of his off the court stuff. Is the word in the street? Who knows? Last thing just quickly is the All Star arguments are going to be great for the All Positive pod. We have just the Guards of the West, SGA, Harden, Anthony Edwards, Kyrie, Curry, Booker, Fox, and Ja. I'm positive all those guys can't make the team. Centers, Jokeh, Jwembi, Sabonis, Davis, Schengen, and Jaron Jackson on a really good Memphis team. Houston might not have an All-Star. They're a two-seed. Then you go with the East. If Brunson and Mitchell and Kate all make it, we still have to figure out Maxi, Dame, Trey, Hero, and Garland. We have to figure out how many Cavs, All-stars there are. I just think there's a lot of good players. When everybody starts doing their All-Star pods in two weeks, people are like, Holy shit. A lot of good players. Then we'll complain about the All-Star Game, but we're not going to have the All-Positive podcast.

It's going to be a Stephen Curry Celebration Weekend. Most people call it the All-Star Weekend, but it's going to be Stephen Curry's convention. So he's definitely making it. I don't know what they'll have to do, but he's definitely in, Bill. There's no way that they're going to host it.

Well, SGA, Harden has to make it. Ant has to make it. I think Kyrie has to make it, and I think Curry has to make it. So it's five guards, and we haven't talked about Booker, Fox, or Ja yet. Ja, you can maybe dig on some of the miss games. But that's crazy. Booker and Fox aren't going to be in the All-Star Game. I think that's where we're heading. So the league is loaded. That's it for the All Positive NBA podcast, unless you had any last things. That was good.

I just want to say to my beloved Texas Longhorns that are playing football tomorrow against Arizona State, Hocom Horns. Let's see a win and get to the semifinals, Bill.

Listen, I'm feeling positive about that. I'm feeling positive about everything in general as we head to the end of End of 2025. What a positive ending. This is great. We didn't even talk about the Kings. I had a whole, I was going to make fun of the Kings. I'm not going to do it because this is the all-positive NBA podcast. Thanks, Kyle Creighton, for producing. I think Cerruti is on this. I think Keha is on this as well. Next time you see me, it'll be 2025 on the Thursday podcast. Enjoy New Year's. Have a great New Year's Eve. Kirk Goldsbury, good luck with Texas.

Happy New Year. Thank you, Bill..