The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by FanDuel Sportsbook. We're also brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new Rewatchables on Monday night. We did a mailbag. We started in 2025 with the mailbag. We started 2026 with the mailbag. Got some great questions from a lot of listeners. Came up with a couple of new categories, argued about movies. Talked about heat a few times. He kept Coming up. Turns out people like asking us about heat. I don't know why. Apparently, it's a good movie. I've only seen it once or 50 times. Anyway, check that out. We will be coming back with a brand new movie next week. We are doing What Lies Beneath, which you can find on Netflix, where the rewatchables is going to be officially moving at the end of the month from a video standpoint, but also still available on Spotify on all platforms and available on video on Spotify as well. Don't forget that part. But what lies beneath next week, watch it on Netflix, listen to our podcast on Monday. Somehow this has never happened. I've done rewatchables live, but I've never done a live podcast in Los Angeles.
So We've done live rewatchables, but not a live Bill Simmons podcast. That all changes on when is the day? February 11th. Tickets will go on sale on Friday, January ninth, theringer. Com/events. I have no idea who's going to be with me. I know it'll be fun, so you can go check that one out. Coming up on this podcast, Kurt Goldsbury and I are going to do an NBA power poll. Go 30 to one, figure out where Michael Porter Jr. Should go. Does anyone want Trey Young? What's going on with the OKC? Do we believe in Phoenix and the South Tech. A whole bunch of questions. Then after that, Chris Ryan and Craig Horbeck, they stuck around after we tape the rewatchables yesterday. We talked a bunch of NFL stuff. Craig's team, the Steelers, CR's team, the Eagles. My team the Patriots. What do we believe? Why don't we have playoff fantasy? A whole bunch of things going on. So very fun podcast. Hope you enjoy it. We're going to take a break and then Pearl Jam. The Bill Simmons podcast is presented by FanDuel. Fanduel has got it all. Same game parlays, quick bets for jumping in live.
They have your way. Go check out your way. You can build the bet that fits your play, your way. Plus, don't miss out on the NFL Playoffs, one of my favorite times of the year, all month long. Download the app or head to fandle. Com/bs to get started. Get ready for the playouts. Let's go. Must be 21 plus, President selects states, 18 plus in DC, Kentucky, and Wyoming. Get in a promo call, win a 100 game, or visit rg-help. Com. Call 888-789-777 or visit ccpg. Org/chat in Connecticut. All right, Kirk Goldsbury is here. He is going to do a little power poll with me. We're going to go from 30 to 1. We feel like we can hit a bunch of fun story lines. What's your favorite storyline in the season so far? We're like 36 games in. So what are we at? The 41% mark? 42% mark? What's your favorite story?
Well, I'm biased. I have to say my San Antonio Spurs, surprisingly ahead of schedule, Bill. I love the guards, though. I thought this was going to be a Wemby team. I was talking to somebody today. Even without Wemby, the Spurs have one of the best young corps in the league, and that's been my favorite story. I love to watch them more than anything. I just love that team.
Yeah, I agree with you on that. It's funny. We are always surprised when somebody is ahead of schedule, but ahead of schedule happens over and over again in the history of the NBA. Yeah, you've been good about that. We saw it just happened with OKC. Yeah, it's always like you're always better betting on a year and a half, two years ahead versus an older team like the Clippers or something or the dangerous ones.
One of my students told me one time is like, athletes are more famous in their lives past their primes. And so I think we overrate these older guys as we get to know them. But yeah, it's a young man's game.
Except for Steph Curry and Kevin Durant, who are somehow 37 years old and still crank it. All right, power pull. We're going 30 to one, and we're going to be able to hit a bunch of stuff. So I sent you my list. This is not both of our lists. I just sent you. This is my power pull. We're going through it. First group, the Dregs. Indiana is now 6 and 30 with no signs of life. And I think they basically have locked down. They're going to be the worst team in the league. I think they're fine with it. They'll start shelving guys, scratching guys. And what that does is that locks down a top four pick, which is important because we have Peterson and Bouzer and De Bensa. I think Caleb Wilson. Even if you get four and you end up with Caleb Wilson, it's like, fine. That guy might be a multiple-time OMBA guy. So I think This is one of the weirdest situations in the history of the league where you have a team that was on the cusp of winning a championship and becoming the ultimate sports movie story. And then in the blink of an eye, it's over.
Their best player is gone for a year, and now they have a chance to get basically a franchise guy for the next 15 years and be back running in a year. I don't remember anything like that before.
No, the best comp I have is a very different situation, but it's the Bulls post-Jordon when Tim Floyd came in, and it was just They went from very, very apex of the league to the bottom. But yeah, they're 6-30. I heard Zack Lo saying yesterday, I didn't think they'd be this bad. I agree with that. They still have so many good players. They have a good coach. 6-30, though, Bill, That's surprising. They're taking the opposite approach as your team. They're obviously just going to get a draft pick and come back at full strength next year. I like that as an executive, and I think they'll be a force to be reckoned with next year. This is just a gap year.
I don't think they had a choice because the way it worked out where they just had injuries coming out of the gate even before the season started, and they were just behind the eight ball. And they also don't have anybody as good as Jalen Brown on the Pacers. A hundred %. If you have a top six, top seven guy, which is the way Jalen has been playing, it's a lot easier to win games. All right, so they're 30. Sacramento, I have a 29. They're 8 and 28. Their last net rating now, 11. 5. I don't remember if I've talked about them on a pod. We killed them before the season when house and Zack and I did the over-under pod. And Zack got as gamey as he's ever gotten, I think, just completely eviscerating a team. I don't understand anything this team is doing. The Westbrook thing to me is the goofiest of the season where you're paying Malik Monk 18 million a year. You're burying him. He's playing either zero minutes a game, six minutes a game. You went and got Schroeder over the summer to be your point guard. You gave up on him basically when the season started, and then you get Russ as an expiring.
It's not like he's helping them win games. They're terrible. All they should be doing is trying to build up the trade value of Schroeder, Monk, some of their other dudes. I don't know what they're doing, Kirk.
It is especially sad, Bill, when you look at it in the I was at the NBA Cup final and watching the Knicks and the Spurs, and you're seeing Harrison Barnes and Mike Brown out there. You're seeing Deer and Fox out there. We just talked about Halliburton. It's especially sad when you think about where they were just a few years ago and how they're back to being the Kings.
Yeah. Well, you also have the Sabona's Trade Now looming, but you gave them this pretty pricey extension in a league where everybody's afraid to trade for a contract that's 35 million and up. So I think it's going to be a little harder to get rid of him than maybe they think. They do have a good rookie center that I think could take some of his spots. But I just can't believe this is probably the worst shape they've been in.
I don't know about that.
I think it is, though. Who is their best asset?
Sabonis? Murray. Yeah, Murray or Sabones.
Is Murray even on a final four team?
Is he even starting No, he's not starting. That's for sure.
No, he's like a ninth man. How many minutes would he play for the Celtics? Would he play over Sam Hauser? I don't even know.
No, I would just push back because they have such an illustrious history at being at the bottom of this league. They've been in some bad eras, but man.
Well, I'm talking about the Vivek era. But yeah, they had Fox and they had Bagly back to back. They were five and two in those draughts. It was not awesome back then either. But I think this is worse, though, because They're actually paying a real roster. They're in one of the aprons. They turned Fox into... I don't even really know what they got. And Fox, by the way, everybody's watching him this year and the Spurs going, Oh, Fox is good. It's like, yeah, Fox is...
Yeah, he's been good.
Fox was good. He was in the all-MBA conversation for a couple of years. All right, so they're 29. Washington is 28. They're 9 and 25. Normally, I wouldn't want to talk about them. It's just a weird team where they just got a bunch of assets they liked. They didn't really know what they were doing with them, but they don't really care. Threw some people together. They have some bets. And then our buddy Mark Stein starts the ball rolling on a Trey Young conversation with them, which they have McCollum's expiring contract and Chris Middleton's expiring contract. I actually tried to figure out what the trade would be, and I had some trouble, even as the Picasso of the Trade Machine, trying to figure out how the contracts go back and forth because it's like 63 million for McCollum and Middleton. Trey is making 45, so there's others. So I'm sure there's a way to work it out. Do you like the idea of Washington buying low on Trey Young for this year and probably next year because I don't see him opting out of his deal?
I do. I actually think there's some bright spots in Washington with George and Saar. If they can keep those guys and get Trey Young, I mean, what else do they have to look forward to? They have a terrible net rating. They have trouble selling tickets. I think you got to look at them as one of the more attractive potential shooters for Trey Young. So I actually like it. I know that our friend Joe House texted us last night and said, Please don't pour any gas on that fire. I'm sorry, House. I think it actually makes sense, Bill.
I told House, House went on the Ringer gambling show yesterday and picked the chargers, not just plus three and a half in New England, but he picked them money line. So they were going to go into New England and win. And three hours later, Trey Young to the Wizards emerge. And I was like, This is how God works, House. How dare you go against your buddy of 37 years and take the chargers. Now you have to watch Trey Young. It's weird because on the one hand, is it a stressed asset? It's like getting a distressed asset. On the other hand, I'm not sure is it an asset because this league is so good. Everybody's so good offensively now. We have multiple teams in the 120s. So it's not like being a good offensive player is as much of his advantage as it used to be. It's a league where Denny Abdi is averaging 25, 7, and 7. So when you throw in his defensive deficiencies and the fact that nobody seems to like playing with them, I don't really know what you're getting. But if I'm Washington and I have this goofy team of basically shooting guards that bring the ball up, maybe.
Yeah. Well, I think you're exactly right. The market for... The NBA is so much smarter now than it was when we used to love players like Trey Young. You look at these stats, you look at his offensive numbers, but we're so much smarter at evaluating defense. And the market for anybody who is so negative on that end of the court, it's just more efficient now. I think that's a big part of it. But I think the play is you get him now, and then maybe you get him at a lower number and keep him happy in Washington. I certainly wouldn't want them to get him and then extend him at the max. That would be a bad move for Joe House as Washington Wizards.
If they did that, that's almost like you have to divorce your team. I don't even know if Vivek Ranadeeva would do that. By the way, the King said they're out. They're not interested. When the Kings aren't interested, that's usually a bad sign. I don't mind it buying low for them and seeing what's there. We've seen him succeed in the playoff. I was thinking about there are guys in history, and this isn't just in basketball, but it's for football, too, that have dined off some result that if you go back and you study the result. Maybe the result was a little more dubious and you're dining on that, but maybe it shouldn't happen. Trey, you'd be like, Well, he made the Eastern Conference finals. He led the Hawks. And it's like, Well, that is true. Let's go back and look. Let's see what the league was that year. The conference was weak. And in the second round, they had this once-in-a-decade event of Ben Simmons, his career ending during a playoff series. He literally lost his confidence in real-time And the team cratered. And the Hawks, if you go back and you look at all those games, there were crazy comebacks and the Sixers just fall apart.
And if that doesn't happen and Philly just wins that series, we're not having... There's no case for Trey Young.
Yeah, that's a fair point. I also think it's worth bringing up that the man who drafted Trey Young in Atlanta and postured them to get in the position to get Trey Young in the first place, Travis Schlenk, is now one of the leaders of the front office in Washington.
Oh, a Travis redemption.
Travis Schlenk. We've seen that in every sport. These guys, once you build a relationship like that, you'll see them bring them home. So I think the shoe fits Bill Simmons.
Okay. Well, I like for Atlanta, I still have not given up at Atlanta. They'll be coming up later in the power pole. But I like flipping Trey into CJ. If you don't really have to give up anything else other than contracts going back and forth, I don't mind that because I actually think they need somebody like CJ and the team. The with Trey, and CJ is not a good defender either, but maybe it's just the mix that they need. New Orleans, 27. They were looking frisky, and now they've lost seven straight, and yet they don't have their pick. We've talked about that a million times. Brooklyn, 26. They're 11 and 22. I went under on them as one of my locks in the over-under pot. I think their over-under was 19. And I didn't think they wanted to be good, and I still don't think they want to be good. But Michael Porter Jr. Has flipped this and ruined it and has had this unbelievable breakout season where this is where I talked about last week with Mahony about, do they need the breakthrough player award to add to Most Improved? You can't really necessarily give Michael Porter most improved because he's just getting way more shots.
I've always had that theory about good stats, bad teams. How many guys, talked about this many times in the pot, how many guys in the league could score 20 points if they just want a bad team? How many guys could score 25? Maybe that's a little of that. On the other hand, I've watched him go toe to toe with excellent players and carry his team against better teams. He did it to the Celtics. He killed the Celtics in Boston. I do wonder, could he say They have a couple of seasons here or elevate a couple of teams? But more importantly, Kirk, if you're in Brooklyn, you have to trade him this week. You're passing the point of you're not going to be able to get in the top four if you don't get rid of him now, if that's your goal. It might not be your But if they want to be a bottom four team, they have to trade him this week. He's making the team too good.
Yeah, they need more of those K. M. Thomas shots and fewer of these MPJ shots. See, MPJ is one of the more talented pure shooters in the NBA. He works out a lot with Stephen Curry and his trainer, Brandon Payne. I remember Brandon told me one time, you wouldn't believe the number of times that MBJ beats Stephen Curry in shooting drills and shooting games. He is super talented. And he had the back issue coming out of college, which dropped him in the stock. But this guy has been one of the most talented players in basketball in a long time. I like him. I agree with you. My only note on Brooklyn, the way they're playing, I would swap them out of this Dregs category you gave me and put them above Utah.
I like- So you'd put them in the next category called the Young and the Frisky? I just assume they're going to trade Porter. I wanted to keep them in the Dregs because I thought they were just going to trade Porter. But you're right. If they don't, they're in the Young and the frisky.
Yeah, I like them, and they're showing flashes of being a very good defense through stretches of the season, that young group coming together. They have the chance, Bill, and I'm not sure this is the route they're going to take, but they have the chance to get better as the season goes on.
I think there's more good coaches right now than we've ever had. The Nets coach is a good example. The Suns coach, who I think him and Missoula are in the running for coach of the year. But it just seems like there's more smart people running teams versus the old days where it was like some ex-player who had already coached three other teams. We had a lot of those guys. We don't have as many of those guys. Apologies to Doug Christie.
No, I agree. One crossover NFL take, I think one of the reasons, like the Jacksonville coach or the bears coach we saw in that sport this year, just how important coaching can be for a team.
Specialists, too. People who are really good at one side of their offense or defense.
Yeah, I agree. I had that in my notes, Will Hardy is another great coach in a struggling environment. But yeah, there's so many good young coaches right now.
Yeah. Well, he could save Golden State's season. I want to hold that thought when we get to Golden State. The trade that's the easiest trade. I actually asked Bobby Marks. I texted him today about trying to understand these poison pill guys, and I guess one hasn't been traded since 1785. But it's the hardest it's ever been to make trades. And yet the easy trade and the trade that makes sense for both sides is Porter going to Detroit. And that's the one that's sitting there. Harris isn't expiring. They have Ron Holland, which is a tough asset to give up, but you got to give up something to get something. They have Picks. I watch Detroit and so much relies on Cade in the last five minutes of every game that I think as good as they've been, and they definitely have an identity, you have to have a second guy who can create a shot. If you If you don't do that, then you're basically banking on maybe Ivy can become that guy. But that trade just makes a lot of sense. Then Brooklyn just buys out Harris. He goes and signs with the contender. You've held off the fort of not being one of the five worst teams, and you could just play all your young guys and try to lose.
That's what I would do.
Detroit has a defense that is their identity, their physical, but they lack that. The Malik Beesley shooting numbers that were so great last year haven't replaced. They have Duncan Robinson. They would slide MPJ in that role.
I think- Basically, the Harris and whatever that forward role is, they lose on defense with him because he's not a good defensive player. He's somebody that people target when he's out there on a good team.
But they're overloaded on defense and underloaded on shooting. From that perspective, it makes sense. I wonder if they're a little reticent because of Harris's off-court impacts just as a leader, as the grown up in the room. I don't know if they want to mess with it. This is a team that's getting better. That'd be the pushback. They feel like they have the best record in the East right now. I know Zack thinks they might make a trade. Obviously, they have to look at it. I wouldn't be surprised to see them just, This is our team. We're going to try to win the Eastern Conference with this group.
I actually think that's probably the right move because whatever happens, they're not winning the title this year. And Zack and I talked about when we talked about them a month ago as a trade team, you go under the premise of what would Sam Presty do. He definitely wouldn't do anything this year. He'd wait and probably wait until the summer to really make a move on somebody. But Porter is playing so well and the East is so wide open. I guess your question is, could we make the finals if we did this trade? And is that a good enough goal for you? And when you think that team was so bad a couple of years ago and how starved Detroit is for a good team again, you'll be like, we might actually make the finals if we do this. I think you're having meetings about it. Next group, the Young and the Frisky, Utah 25, 12 and 23. It's interesting, if they had had Kessler, if he hadn't gotten hurt so early in the season, I do wonder what this team looks like because some of their other assets have come through. Quijote I can't think George is my number one.
I have no idea what to make of this guy as an asset because he's averaging 24 a game. It's hard for me to imagine him being one of the two best guys on a really good team. And you watch them at the end of games, and he just seems like he can get anywhere on the floor he wants to get to, which I think is the number one thing you'd want as a guard in the last five minutes of a game. They're marketing.
There's good stuff happening here. Yeah. I hope for my friend Will Hardy that this is the last year. He has to go through this because there is good stuff happening. They have talent. It's a proud franchise. And I hope Danny Ames decides to start really pushing next year. This year, I don't know why they would try to win much more than they are where they are right now in the Western Conference. But man, this is a fan base that we know is sick of losing. They're accustomed to being at the top of the Western Conference, and they're just Are you trade marketing or no? I would field offers, and I think that's what Danny has been doing, and I would be picky, but I would if the right offer presented itself. I think you look at the Western Conference right now, there's a lot of great players younger than marketing that are going to be around for a while.
I was just looking that up. What is his age exactly? Oh, he's 28. So he turns 29 in May. That's where you have to think. Every decision you're making is where are we in 2030, basically. So he's 32 at that point. Shea. Right. Well, they're fun. Listen, and the same thing for this next team, 24 Charlotte, who's 13 and 23. It's like just two good league pass teams. These were teams that you did not want to watch ever for any circumstances. Charlotte last night put them on, wanted to see if they would go a little toe to toe with a seemingly struggling OKC team just because they've been 500 for two weeks. And turned on the game and Charlotte was up 20. It's like, what's the... And they killed Charlotte. Like, literally killed them. It was probably the best Hornets game in five years.
Yeah, it was the most stunning result of the year. I would go so far as to be like, I cannot believe what I'm watching. I wanted to watch the Suns Rockets game, but I couldn't take my eyes Off of what was happening in Oklahoma City and Connipple and Brandon Miller and LaMelo Ball just hitting three after three in this defense. It's crazy. Frustrating the thunder.
When they had Miller He's been in and out. He's been banged up, but he seems healthy now. Him and Connipple together are just a really fun foundation. I really feel like that... I've talked about Charlotte too much, but I really feel like there's something there. What's interesting is LaMelo, he He played 25 minutes, 16 points, two rebounds. It wasn't like this was like the LaMelo show last night. It was really about their wings and OKC having a lot of issue with their flexibility. I can't wait to talk about OKC. Chicago 17 and I watched them last night, played the Celtics. Celtics killed them. But Zellas, I really like, and I think he's competitive, and I think there's something potentially special with him. I'm monitoring him.
What else do you watching there?
There's something there.
What else do you watch when you watch this team. It's dark times in Chicago. I watched the beginning of that game last night, too, when the Boston Celtics just destroyed them on both ends of the court. It's so embarrassing on the interior with Chicago Chicago, your guy, Kata, just bullying them around. They have no answers. I don't know what they're trying to do. It's bleak.
I think they were trying to have a really fun offensive team built around their guards. But the problem is they didn't trade Kobe White in time, and now they're stuck where they are. The Can't Quit Yet list. Dallas, I probably have too high at number 22. They're 13 and 23. No. Net rating minus 3. 7. I can't give up on them yet, and I don't know why. And they're probably going to trade Davis in the next three weeks, I would guess, if they can get any decent offer for But I don't feel like they're that far away when I watch them. I feel like they're in these games against these teams. And part of the problem is they're relying on somebody who just turned 19 to be this decisive playmaker at the end of the games. They can't figure out the point guard spot. Nemhardt is clearly a ninth, 10th man, but defensively, he really hurts someone who's out there. They can't figure out how to put in that spot. I don't know when Kyrie comes back, the plan is still available for them, potentially. And you could talk yourself into a world with Kyrie coming back and them being a 10th seed, and who knows?
I just don't know if that makes sense.
It doesn't. I mean, they own their own pick, Bill. They're sitting here at 13 and 23. I love Cooper Flag. I'm dropping another big piece on him I can't wait. This week on the Ringer. I can't wait. I've been studying Dallas. And from a front office perspective, they own their own pick this year. They don't really for the next few. This is a deep draft. They're sitting here at 13 and 23.
They I already lost Lively.
You're looking down I-35 at San Antonio. You're looking at Houston. You're looking at OKC. Oh, my God. You have, and this is what I wrote in that piece. It's a draft right now. I said, there's two kinds of bad teams in the league. There's a team that doesn't have a direction like Chicago. And then there's a team like Dallas that's blessed with Cooper Flag and Derek Lively. And that at least gives you a path forward. And I say the clear move here is to go to the bottom for Dallas, however they get there, and go get another guy next to Cooper and Lively and start there and see what you can get for PJ, see what you can get for Gaffard, maybe see what you can get for AD, let Kyrie take his time coming back. I think that's such an obvious path forward, but I don't think this current Dallas leadership is thinking that way.
Interesting because they're a good Trade Machine team. They have multiple guys that other teams would want. Like PJ Washington, reasonable contract, right? He's around 15, 16. Anybody could go grab him and put him in a rotation and you would need him. Gaffard is another one.
Plug and play.
I worry about the lively piece and just him long term from a health standpoint, because I think that was one of the things people were worried about with him coming out of high school and college, and now he's hurt again. Then I'd also worry if I were them, about Cooper Flag coming to the Celtics in four years. I think that's a real threat. Tank, but don't tank too hard. His whole family is in Maine, and their house is covered with Celtic stuff, and his mom is probably the biggest female Celtic fan in New England. So I'd worry about them just a whiff.
Yeah, it's interesting. But just from a team building perspective, they have to look at it, man. It's just the writings on the wall. But what's really interesting, and you'll love this, too, they currently have co-interim GMs. They have Mark Cuban in a quasi-involved role again. The current owner It's just who would make the decisions, Bill, for a team like this to be aggressive at the deadline one way or another?
An emotionally scarred team, by the way, that probably doesn't ever want to make another decision.
That's not irrelevant. They are going to be pretty gun-shy about big trades, right? Because they don't want to repeat the disaster that they just lived through in 2025, again in 2026.
If I was a Mavericks fan, I'd probably have to see a therapist twice a week to get through the last year, even though it all ends up with Cooper Flag. That is incredible to watch and is doing things at an age that is about as unusual as it gets. The question for me with Davis, what is he worth actually versus, oh, it's Anthony Davis. He's worth this. It's like, is he? From a wear and tear standpoint, from the fact that the Ringer's Rich Paul will probably want an extension for him.
That's a big point.
I just don't know what teams are actually giving up for him on top of the fact that it's impossible to make a trade for a $50 million guy anymore. What's that Carfax report looking for him? When you get it in, it's like, Oh, 132,000 miles. I thought this was going to be like 88. I didn't realize they changed the engine.
He's taught me more about abductor strains than I've cared to know in my life. I didn't know what that was. And then Anthony Davis. But yeah, if you tell me he's healthy, he helps every team. If the Celtics got him, he fills a lot of gaps. But with the CBA and the trade rules, we'll talk about their front court, I'm sure, in a minute. But it's hard to trade them in the regular season, period. It's harder to trade them when your front office has co-interim GMs and your owners are still trying to figure out what's going on here. I just don't think they get it done. I could be wrong, but I just don't think they have the leadership in place to pull that off right now.
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So how's that New Year's resolution looking? You're going to crush the gym You're going to inch into quitter's day territory? What's your plan? Because that's a real thing. The second Friday of January, it turns out most of us, we throw in the towel by then, but not this year. Not if you got an Apple Watch. Apple Watch keeps you locked in. You've got the daily movement and activity rings, achievement streaks, goal tracking. It's like having a coach on your wrist. So if you're on the edge of giving up, don't. This is the year we quit quitting. Let's do this. Apple Watch made to motivate you. Find out more at apple. Com/applewatch. Com. I'll watch Series 11, iPhone 11 or later required. All right, the Can't Quit Yet group continues with Memphis at 15 and 20. I don't have a lot to say here other than I was on the record as not loving the Jaron Jackson extension. I still think when you're talking about paying that much money for somebody, I just need a little more. Ironically, I feel this way about Jimmy Butler in Golden State. Jimmy Butler, a player I like, but for $54 million a Every year, it's just too much money in a league where you really can only afford to have one or two guys making that much on your team.
I don't know what they do with Ja. Every once in a while, I get a text from somebody being like, heard So-and-so is interested in Ja. I'm like, really? And then nothing happens.
He looks great when he looks great. The Jaron Jackson thing, though, that's the most interesting thing. Basketball isn't baseball. You can't just plug and play these guys into any team and know what you're to get. He looked great defensively when Steven Adams was there collecting rebounds and clogging up the paint, and that freed him up. Team USA, when we tried to use him at the five, it just wasn't good. He needs a bigger, stronger, traditional five to really be the defensive impact that we've seen him be. Then there's also giant red flags on the other end of the court, Bill. He's arguably the worst finishing big man in the league right now. He He does this thing where he tries to drive the ball almost like Giannis from the top, and it just never works. He gets halfway there, and then it just can't finish. So I'm with you. That is looking awkward. Maybe Zack Edi He is the guy next to him, and it all clicks in, but-Right.
We can't keep him on the court. To your earlier point. They're not the coward pick.
They draft well.
Yeah. And ironically, need a point guard and have one, but have no idea what we're getting out of that guy going forward. If he's not going to be as reckless as he used to be, I don't know what's left if he can't. He's not a great shooter. And the league is just way better, way more explosive. Everybody has a good guard.
Like Trey Young, I don't have to cut off the Portland segue, but like Trey Young, the league is just a little too woke these days for a one-way offensive guard who's going to be just a weak link on the defensive end that smart teams will just attack over and over and over again. You have to be an exceptional offensive player if you're going to bring that little to the defensive end.
We just have so much more talent that I don't even know. All you have to do is just go through… I was looking at the '06 Lakers and how Kobe, I think he finished fourth in MVP. I voted for him that year, and he averaged 35 a game. His best four teammates, which I had forgotten. No Laker fan has forgotten this, but I forgot it. His best four teammates were Lamar Odom, who was good, Smush Parker, Kwame Brown, and Luke Walton. That was his team. Three of those guys would not be in rotations for three-fourths of the teams we have now, would not play minutes at all. And as the league evolved over the next 20 years, you could get away with a Trey Young in 2017 when we didn't have a ton of scoring. Now we do. We have teams We're averaging 124 points a game.
It's a great point. And we also have these young buck coaches that we were describing earlier that know how to exploit every week length that you put on the court on your defense. That's the other thing. Tactically, we know how to get Trey Young on an island and attack it. And I think that's the other thing that's happened.
Well, that's the problem with Porter. Trying to win a title and you get Porter, you're in the same position Denver was in where he's just going to be thrown into every screen and every pick and roll, and he's going to be the guy they pick on. So his offense has to be awesome to offset that. Portland, number 20, 17 and 20 somehow, even though Scoot-Hannerson, haven't seen him. Drew Halladay got hurt pretty early. Avdie is a 25, seven, and seven guy, and really should get thrown into all the terrible things that have happened in the Wizards this century list. I think giving up on that dude when he was that good. I want to mention because they beat the Celtics. It was the only game in the road trip the Celtics lost, and I watched it. I think Klingon's terrific. I really like him as a big guy. I liked him in the draft. I thought both him and Edi went maybe a couple of spots too late because where the league was going, I just like these big guys that can rebound and defend the rim. He killed the Celtics. It was the only mistake Missoula made on the whole road trip was he went small in the last three minutes and Klingon killed them, got a big offensive rebound and a putback.
But I think they really got something with him. I like their assets. I don't know what I do if I'm Portland. I might try to zag the other way, maybe. Maybe this is a team that takes a flyer on one of these dudes that are available. Yeah, I mean-LaMelo, Trey Young type guys.
I think Trey Young, they have to be looking at that. They're 17 to 20. They're in the wrong place in the standings. The league punishes that record at the end of the year. If that's where you're going to be, here's your prize, you get nothing. And look, they've beaten OKC this year. They've beaten the Spurs in San Antonio. Beat the Celtics. They beat the Celtics. They show glimpses. Tiago, I like Tiago as a head coach. Remember, they had a crisis in the coaching staff, unprecedented crisis.
His house was on Redfin. Oh, really? Billups is over. Yeah, there was an article about how he's selling his house. This This story is grim. That coach is not coming back.
Is Closterman going to move in there? Do you think?
He should talk to him about it. Yeah, he should maybe grab the Billups house. Probably a good poker room in there. I like where Portland's at. I'd be interested to see if they took a swing on somebody. Could also be an Anthony Davis team, by the way. They're in play for a bunch of stuff from a contract standpoint and a little tough. But Klingon and Avdia, they have some good guys. Yeah, they have good guys. And Kamara, we didn't mention. They have some guys that are like, Number 19, Milwaukee. They're 16 and 20. They're 14 and 8 when Yannis plays. They have seven guys averaging 10 points a game. They have Rollins and Kevin Porter at 36 points a game combined, which is one of those when you're going through the stats, you're like, Wait, what? I'm still in on this Bucks team. I'm the last one. I'm out. And it has nothing to do with that. I like Doc. I just think Giannis is that good, and I don't think the East is good. I'm not officially closing the door on them in any capacity yet. They're not going to trade Giannis So it's not happening.
I am so frustrated with this team. I love this team about five years ago and then slowly watched the deteriorate transaction after transaction, coaching change after coaching change. And here we are. Dude, one of the crazy stats of the year, though, is this is the best shooting team in the NBA, the Milwaukee Bucks. That's why I'm still in.
Yannis and shooting is something.
That is something, Bill. That's a good position to take. I just don't think this Ryan Rawlins thing. It's so frustrating. That used to be Drew holiday or even Eric bloodsill for crying out loud. They used to have better players next to Yannis, Chris Middleton, of course, Brook Lopez. It's just sad to see the supporting cast. I'm as big of a Yannis guy as you'll find in the media. I love him, and it's just sad to see what they've surrounded him with.
Well, they surrounded him with shooting.
And Kuzma.
The Kuzma trade is the one that killed him because he's untradable. I know they had to save some luxury tax last year, but you'd have middle as an expiry this year. You'd actually have the flexibility to go get somebody, and they can't because Kuzma doesn't make enough money. Number 18, the Clipper is a team that I've seen in person a couple of times recently. Thirteen and 22 now. I was mailing my betting thread with Sal and House and Hinch. I was mailing them Clipper's division odds when they were 200 to one on FanDuel, and now they are 45 to one, and I still I don't like it. I don't like anyone in that division, except for one team we're going to talk about later. But Harden is having quietly a really good offensive season. Again, he's like 25, 8, 7 or something. And then Kawhi until Jalen Brown came in on Saturday night and I punched him right in the mug. But Kawhi's looked athletically as good as I've seen him the entire time in the Clippers. They had Derrick Jones come back, who then got hurt. But they feel like they figured out how to use John Collins, finally.
The first 15 games, it was like, why is this guy in the team? What is he? And now they've figured that part out. They had a nice win against the Warriors last night, but not counting them out either because they have no incentive to not be good. They have to be good.
It's been a bad few weeks for OKC. We'll talk about that later. But what he's talking about, one of the reasons why the Clippers are winning, and that's bad for their next year's draft status, the OKC Thunder, that is. Kawhi Leonard, I had one friend at the NBA tell me for a team, say this is the best he's played since Toronto, this stretch of games. I agree with that. He looks awesome. And I know your guys went in there and won that game, and I was very impressive. We'll talk about that, I'm sure, in a minute. But Kawhi Leonard, if he's going to play like this, too, the Clippers are going to be good. And if Harden is going to play like this, the Clippers are going to be good. Those are big ifs, especially with Kawhi's availability. But yeah, just look at his numbers. He's scoring 30, 35, 40 on a routine basis. And maybe more important, he's playing his ass off on defense, Bill.
Playing his ass off and very angry competitive Which is the scariest kawaii, dude.
When we had him in San Antonio, it was like when he would get like that in that Memphis series, I know we even take that for data series. He would go to this place where it was just like an eighth grader playing against fourth graders and just be meaner than everybody and take the ball. That's what we're seeing. I don't know if it's sustainable, but the Clippers look better than the 13 and 22 record next to their name.
I agree. So if you look at the win total on FanDuel right now, they're over and under. It's 38 and a half. So they're 13 and 22. So that means they'd have to be a little bit over 500. The thing that interests me about them, they're on their pick, so they want to be good. They actually have some trade stuff.
They have a lot of trade stuff.
I think they're in play for a Davis trade, possibly. They could add up. Collins is 26. 5 and expires after the year. Zubats is at 18. 1. Bogdanovic is expiring at 16. Lopes is expiring at 8. 7, and Batum is expiring at 5. 6. They could put together any type of trade. So they could go get a $40 million guy, $45, $50, whatever it is, and make a play on a distressed asset if they wanted. I'm interested to see how that goes. I thought for sure they were going to make a play on Trey Young or one of these guys. I guess Trey would have made sense because you already have Harden, but just one of these distressed asset, Max guys, or close to Max.
But what if they decided they were going to try to trade James Harden? What if they wanted to really go after it? I think that's something I heard around the league this week, too, is Harden might be in some of these conversations. I'm not reporting anything, but look, they have to look at it.
I'll tell you this. It wouldn't surprise me after Saturday because the Celtics knocked him down once, and we never heard from him again in that game. I think he's at the point of his career where you just have to hit him a couple of times. Trade Machine crew. I probably should have the Clippers in there. Number 17, Atlanta. The season's all over the map. The trade thing burned out. Risa Shay has been really bad. I'm not giving up on him, but he's been bad. And them taking him over Castle, I think, is getting really, really tough now. I thought Castle should have been first in the draft. That one's getting really hard now. If you're a Hawks fan, you just got to be like, oh my God.
I didn't even go further than that, Bill Simmons. I think if you look at the first three or four pics from that draft, you're starting to see Reid Sheppard pop a little bit. That was another guy they were looking at.
But they couldn't take him, though. Sure they could. You can't take him when you have Trey.
Right. Well, They might not have Trey soon, and they could have Reid Sheppard. So take the best player. I agree with you. Yeah. So I think that draft class is starting to pop a little bit more than I expected, but not at that number one slot. And you're right about Richie.
And then Porzingas, which was their big summer trade, and he's still battling all his stuff. The weird thing about this team, other than them being 17 and 21, and I keep waiting for them to turn it around or it's just not happening. And yet I can't count them They're getting this incredible Alexander Walker season. He's averaging 20. 5 points a game. And is a crunch time guy for them sometimes. Is Guard and is guarded the other teams like one of their best players? It's just like, so they, A plus signing there, probably a D minus F plus for the Risa Shea pick. The Porzingus is an incomplete, but I just would have thought if that Alexander Walker move hit like that, how are you 17 and 21?
That's great. There's clearly a chemistry issue there, right? I mean, the on-off numbers with Trey say it all. Their defense is absolutely terrible as soon as Trey Young- But it shouldn't be terrible.
Well, they have good defensive guys on the roster, but it's terrible.
Yeah, there's clearly a chemistry thing. I think that's behind the scenes, the reason why we saw the news from Mark Stein and then the previous report from Shams about them working with the agents, trying to find a new place. It's just clearly, I think, a chemistry thing. And the other sneaky part of it is Porzingis. Talk about big ifs like Anthony Davis. When that guy's out there, the Hawks are good. It's actually more of a Porzingis thing than a Trey thing, I think, for them going forward. It's like, can they get any regular from Porzingus? Because they could flip this around. If they get off at Trey Young and Porzingus is healthy, the Eastern conference is there to be had. Zack did an entire podcast about it yesterday. The Hawks I am not giving up on them by any means.
I intentionally didn't listen to Zack's podcast yesterday because I knew I was doing this today and I didn't want to be tainted with his opinions, with his Northeastern opinions.
It was an excellent podcast.
I'm sorry, I'm going to listen to it today. Golden State, 16. They're 19 and 18. Tough loss last night. They're getting an all-time Curry season. Curry is having his best year in three years. He's almost at five threes a I just think he's been really good. Doesn't have that I'm getting super tired, I'm tired of carrying everybody vibe yet, which I think we'll probably have in a month. What's interesting to me about them is their 20th in offense. You think like, Oh, they got to get a center. They got to do this. It's like, They actually need scoring. They're paying all this money for Jimmy Butler, who's 17 to 19 a game. Draymond can't score. They have all these other bench guys that you don't know whether you're getting it. And that's why I thought Porter would be an interesting one for them. If you're them and you're looking at how do we possibly ever, the Millionaires, beat OKC or San Antonio in a series, which Kerr went out of his way to say how impossible that was. I disagree a little bit because they have Curry. I'm just going all in on offense. I want to build a team that can outscore other teams and do what the Celtics are doing.
The Celtics are second in offense. It doesn't make a lot of sense, but they're getting 130, 140 three points a game. I think they need to add scoring because you saw it last night. Curry fouled out. They had to run the last play for Butler. He ends up with a turnaround with Batum guarding him. It's an airball. They don't have a second guy who can create a shot. So that's what I would do. What would you do?
They have to throw bad money after bad money. I think continue to go after somebody like Yannis or Anthony Davis.
I think that's what- Yannis is going to be too expensive, though.
They can't do that. Maybe it's AD. But look, I just don't think there's a path for them to get back to that group. Stephen Curry, look at the on-off numbers. It's almost Jokić-like, the difference between the competence when Stephen is on the court on their offense versus just the sheer incompetence. As soon as he sits down, they turn into what would be the worst offense in the league. They brought in Jimmy Butler, Bill, in part to stem that. It's just not working. Al Horford hasn't clicked the way they expected that to.
When you say he hasn't clicked, there's other stuff we could say there.
Well, you can say it.
I think it's over. The one thing I've noticed with the Celtics, I was talking about because I was glad I got to see them in person at the Clipper game. The difference of having Porzingis and Horford as two of the bigs that are playing a ton of minutes versus what they have now with Kata and Garza, who on paper are much worse players, and with no experience, make no sense, but are better for the Celtics offensively because they set these big, bulky pics 25 feet from the basket at the top of the key. And the two guards in Jalen and Simon's, they all know how to use these guys, and these guys are just really hard to get around. And they create space, and they know when to roll the basket, their hands are up, and it's just a better offense and Horford, who didn't rebound. By the way, I love Al Horford. I wish he hadn't left the team twice, and I don't know why he left the team to go to a team that can't contend under the guise of contending. But he didn't rebound. He didn't get to the free throw line.
He didn't play all the time. These guys now, they play every game. They're young. They bang bodies. They're physical. They can overpower teams. The Celts are just in a better spot. I look at Horford for what this Warriors team needs. This Warriors team needs rebounding. They need consistency. They need guys who can play every day. They need physicality. He doesn't give any of that stuff to them.
No, the frontcourt has been bad. And it's just Draymond is what he is. He's not going to get you rebounds. He's surprisingly great rim protector. He's going to facilitate offense. But they used to have Kevon Looney. They used to have, I mean, going way back, Bogot, next to them. And now it's just that character is not not there. And of course, the Clay Thompson character is not there. And the non- The sound ends. The non-step minutes are a disaster. And that's really...
You have to have a second score. This is like even the Celtics. It doesn't happen every game, but he'll come in and he could take over a quarter. He could get 13 and a half. It's just like a wild card variable on top of the set stuff that they have every game. The Warriors don't even really have that. I don't even know who their heat check guy is. Is it Will Richard? Who is it?
Yeah, I don't know. I've buddy heeled occasionally.
They don't know who it is. They never know game to game who they're going to get it from. They never know who the second scorer is. Butler is just like, he's going to I was 6 for 11 every game. And that's who he is at this point, I guess.
I want to live in a world where Stephen Curry is the second guy before he's done. I just want to live that he deserves somebody else to be out there on the back to backs, and he's resting, and he doesn't have to do this. He's one of my favorite players of all time. And it's just that- That world, unfortunately, is going to be the 2028 Olympic team.
16 Miami, '20, '16, we can skip them. If only because then their fans can go, Oh, you skipped Miami, motherfucker. 14, Orlando. 20 and 16. If I told you before the year, Anthony Black is going to make a leap and be a guy who could actually be an end of the game, you notice him guy. And Orlando is going to be 20 and 16. What would your reaction have been? Was there a bus crash?
There was some nerd community stuff about AB last year, so I wouldn't have been totally shocked. This is a disappointing 20 and 16. And to borrow a term from the sports guy himself, it feels like the pistons have market-corrected the Orlando Magic's place. In the Eastern Conference hierarchy. I feel like Detroit came in and became that top team of young scrappy, defensive-minded guys. But I was early on the what's going on with Paulo stuff and that got to egg negated.
You were first. I felt like you started it.
It's not always a great place to be, I'll tell you. And you know that better than anybody. But yeah, Paolo has got to be more consistent. They're They still have a negative net rating when he's on the floor.
Paulo has to be more consistent. He's shooting 26% from three. He's shooting 45% in a league where everybody's stats are way up. My fear with him, and it's super early, they can't do anything this year. He's a poison pill guy. They can't trade him. My fear for him, though, is I don't want him to turn into one of those early 2000s forwards that we had. The Sharif, Jouhan Howard, Antoine Jamieson, Antoine, These guys that they were in the low 20s with stats, you felt like they weren't ever going to make a shot in the last minute of a game, but the teams really deferred to them, and you're just in no man's land with them. I think it's in a little bit of play now with him. As young as he is, it's just my fear.
Yeah, as we talked about earlier, the league is moving on. It's just a smarter league. And these inefficiencies, these habits, these inefficient habits or these inabilities on defense. For Palo, it's a jump shooting problem. You can't take this many jumpers and be this bad at it and be a superstar. Those days are gone. There were times when you could do that. We're not doing that anymore. So he's got to get a better shot diet.
Pass it a little bit more. Or he's got to be a complementary player. Right.
That's what I'm saying. And he can do it. That's one or the other. And that's the most frustrating thing. And League history is full of these frustrating dudes. You know it better than me. Guys who could be playmakers but insisted on being that scorer, That's where it's headed right now. I just want to see him wake up to... He is a very well-rounded talent.
If their season goes terribly, they will be maybe a top three most fascinating summer team because they'll be able to trade him in the summer and maybe they'll just decide, let's cash this asset in. Another team would decide, Oh, my God, Palo's available and we're off. Number 13, we are now in the pleasant surprises category. Philadelphia had 19 and 15, 0. 9 rating. I think they're 30 and 0 in clutch games. I don't feel like I've ever seen them lose a clutch game until last night. Last night was ugly. When somehow Denver's G League team smoked them in overtime. Listen, we've talked about them a bunch in the past on this pod. I still think Maxie has been a first-team OMBA guy. I'm having trouble putting a ceiling on VJ at this point. I don't really know what I'm watching anymore. Initially, I thought it was early Dwyane Wade, but now I'm like, this just might be Dwyane Wade. He's great. For real, this might be Dwyane Wade again. Then there are moments where you're like, is that not high enough of a ceiling. And I think Dwyane Wade is the top 30 guy. I'm not saying DJ is going to get there.
I'm just saying there's moments where you're like, oh, my God. What was that?
He had some big threes last night in that loss. But yeah, it feels to me like there's this fun story in the backcourt and this sad story in the frontcourt with this team. And it goes to the cap sheet, too. It's like, hey, we're paying a lot of money for these sad dudes in the frontcourt. And then We're paying. We have cost control on these incredibly fun young guards with Max.
But do you think Paul George has been that bad? Because I actually don't think he's been that bad in what I've seen.
No, he's been fine. It's Davis, right? If he's out there, I'm happy. He's such a good defender still. He's such great instincts, and he's such a veteran. But it's 18 games, Bill. He's played 18 games. Here we go again.
I haven't minded what I saw. I think the most important thing that's happened with them, I don't know what happens with Embiid. I mean, history will tell you we're We know what's going to happen. But the most important thing that's happened is that it's Maxie's team at the end of these games now. Yesterday, when they actually needed a basket in regulation OT, everyone else goes to the side and Maxie tries to figure out what they're going to do. And I never thought Embiid would... As long as he was on the court, I always felt like they would be trapped by this Embiid thing. And I don't think they are anymore. I think they know this is now Maxie's team. Everybody gets it. So even just accomplishing that is huge, I think.
Yeah, I agree. And he's the face of the team. If you look at the early returns in all-star voting, he's near the top. He's a superstar in the making. And then to your point about Veejay, it's like, that's good. Like I said about Cooper earlier, it's like there's two kinds of teams, those who have a clear future direction and those who don't. And the Sixers have two of the best young guards in the NBA, and that's a great place to be. The Joel Embiid situation, he made some terrible plays down the stretch in that Denver loss, which was one of the more shocking results of recent NBA. Who was the best player on that Nuggets team last night? Picket, I think.
Bruce Brown and Picket. It was a fascinating game. I watched the whole second half, and I'm like, What's going on here? Just waiting for Denver to die because I'm rooting against Philly, obviously from a Celtic standpoint. But listen, whatever happens, the fans love these two guys, and everything else will shake out. They're fine. Number 12, Toronto. 22 and 15. There were a couple of points last week. I felt like the season was going to tilt on them and go the other way, and they pulled out one game, and then all of a sudden, they seemed fine. To me, they feel like a regular to me because of the bench, which in the playoffs, I just think is way harder to be sustainable. But over the course of 82 games, when you have four or five guys that can come in and swing a quarter, it's a little better. But They've definitely been a little better than I thought. I'm still dubious.
That's a great step forward for them.
Great step forward for them. Not as dubious as I am of this next team. We're now in the enigmas category number 11. The Lakers Of course, 22 and 11 with a minus 0. 2 rating. The Memphis game the other day, Memphis is taking it to them in the second quarter. They're up like 15 and cowered who's killing them gets hurt. Then the Lakers turned that. I feel like they've had five of those this year. I'm just going to say this is not a 22 and 11 team. I don't think they think they're a 22 and 11 team. Jj seems like he's ready to start drinking on the sidelines during these The vibes are just very strange.
Yeah, I'm looking at their last 15 games. I mean, they have won over their expected statistical profile all year long. Over the last 15 games, they're eight and seven. That's pretty good. But their net rating is negative five, and they have the worst defense in the Western Conference outside of Utah in that time period. I don't know how they're doing it. Obviously, when they win, they have I have some great offensive weapons to credit. But dude, when you see the defensive numbers of the Los Angeles Lakers, this screams lottery to me. When you're down there in defense, it's very hard to even make the playoffs. They are maybe the best shooting team in the NBA, and they get to the free throw line more than anybody. But even with those two incredible things I just said, they're at They model like a 500 team, and somehow, to your earlier point, they're 22 and 11.
Their last 15 games, they're minus 4. 9 offensive rating, which is fifth worst in the league. The teams behind them are Sacramento, Indiana, Utah, and Washington. Yeah. Think about that. New Orleans has a better net rating with them. Defensively, they are 29th in the last 15 games. You're losing any play-off round you with how bad they are on defense, and they don't seem really happy either. So there you go. Number 10, Cleveland. I feel like we've talked about them every week on the pod. I just want to see all their guys playing together for three weeks before I'd figure out what... That includes the role guys. Let me just see the healthy calves for three weeks before I decide. Three games over 500 is stunning to me, though. Plus 2. 4 rating. Okay. Number 9, the Maybe Sleeper. The Phoenix Suns, the 21 and 15, 1. 7 net rating, over and over again winning these close games or coming close to winning these close games or just being in close games. They've been one of the league past MVPs of the year. They feel like they have... Even though his stats are basically the same as last year, they brought back Booker, where he's in.
He's bought into everything they're doing. That was great, considering they reinvested in him. The Dylan Brooks thing has been really fun. They got two games from Jalen Green all year. Not sure that matters. How fluky is this team?
Not fluky. I think they're the Jacksonville Jaguars of the current NBA season. I don't think any of us saw this coming. They have a new coach, a new identity. I think Dylan Brooks deserves more credit than any person on the roster for changing changing the brand of this team that you and I watched together last year in Austin that looked like they hated one another. They looked like they didn't like their coach. And some people at ESPN, our friends over there, said this is the worst predicament of any team in the league by far. It probably was. I'm not roasting those people. I'm just saying that's what people were saying around the NBA, and here they are. It's one of the best stories in the league in a year where there's some great stories. Gillespie has been great. Goodwin is great. Jordan on has brought this offensive- You mean Goodwin, the guy the Lakers waved? Dude, you could make a pretty good team.
To keep Bronnie James and Dalton connect. They waved Jordan Goodwin.
Zubatch is on that team.
A team that can't card anybody. That's unbelievable.
Julius Randall. Oh, my Lord. Yeah, the former Laker All-stars. Oso, big leap for him. He closed games. But I'll say I watched their game pretty closely at the end last night. Tough back to back. By the way, we should mention, they beat OKC, and that was another like, oh, this is not fluky. Then they go to Houston on a back to back bill. And that's what you would call an either or game in the NBA. Durant gets one of the best shots of his entire career in the regular season just to end that game. Awesome moment for him. Awesome moment for the Rockets. But from a Phoenix perspective, you had to be pretty good. That's a tough back to back. And you beat the Thunder and then hang with the Rockets till the very end. So I think it's all about Ott and Dylan Brooks, but you're right. Booker is the leader of this team. Now, the last thing I'll say, how did that game end? Everybody knows they need to get the ball to Booker. The secondary offensive option there, Dylan Brooks, that doesn't really scare anybody in those kinds of moments. So going forward, I think they need one more threat on offense beyond Booker to get to that next level of the Western Conference.
They might have it. It might be Jalen Green.
Yeah, it's fair. Let's see it.
I watch them. I see a lot of the same stuff. I think it's the most stunning thing of the year. I was under on them for 31 and a half games. They're exceptionally well-coached. He's awesome. Every game, every Everybody seems like they know where... It's the same thing with the Celtics. They know where they should be, what their role is, they're bought in. Everybody gives a shit, which is another thing I talked about a couple of weeks ago, I think, with legs about the secret to the Celtics success this year is every single guy in the team has something to prove. I think you could say the same for Phoenix. You go down the line, every single guy has something to prove. Brooks is mad. They traded him. Gillespie wants to show he's a player. Mark Williams got traded the Lakers. They pulled out of the trade. He's in fuck you mode. Charlotte trades them. But you go on down the line and all these guys are bought in and have something to prove, which during a regular season matters. But the fact that they can defend with guys that are just fringe guys that a lot of teams could have had.
But the Booker piece is the main piece to me. They have somebody at the end of these games, the same thing the Celtics had with Jalen. They have somebody that can go toe to toe with whoever the other guy's best player is. Philly has that with Maxi. You have to have one of those guys now because you get into these four minutes left situations. And if you don't have the guy to match baskets, you're going to lose.
Yeah. And it's almost like this mystical thing. The year over year vibe differential is Which one of the greatest I've ever seen, if not the greatest. I can't think of another one where it just went from so toxic to the exact opposite of toxic. Like you're saying, that defensive identity, the rebounding, that cohesion, that give a shitness, And you got to look at Jordan, not Brian Gregory, who reinvented the front office. And then Dylan Brooks on the floor, as I mentioned, just talk about a give a shit guy, every second, every game, maybe too much, but it's contagious. And I just love their identity.
Yeah, and the Celtics have a bunch of those guys, too. And I don't think it's an accident to compare those two teams. You have guys that shouldn't feel like they're as good as everyone on the other team, but they do. If the Celtics play OKC, they're going to think they should beat OKC. Does that make sense on paper? No. Phoenix beats OKC two nights ago. It makes no sense on paper. I just like where they're at. We're moving into the contenders now, number eight, New York, which is the flip side of this, where New York looks like they're already tired of each other after they won the NBA Cup. It's like, that wasn't the title, guys. That was the cup. I mean, I won't be the first person to make this point or the last. It really feels like there's some hardcore evidence now that you don't want to be in the semifinals of the NBA Cup if you care about the season. You're better off just getting out of there. This has ruined every team every year that's been in there.
Well, the second place finisher in the NBA Cup is often... It's often the stepping stone is finishing second.
Yeah, not winning, though.
It's bad. It's true. I know you probably know this or have it at your fingertips, but I think there's still the favorites to win the Eastern Conference, right? They are.
I wouldn't bet on them, though.
When I look at the West and the East, I would take OKC versus the field still in the West. I know we have to address some stuff going on with the Thunder. But I'm certainly taking the field over the Knicks in the East, particularly the Pistons, who I think are a superior team, Exhibit A last night on the basketball court. But also your team, which I don't know if you're doing the reverse jinks. I think that's the best story in the NBA right now, ahead of the Suns. I think the Celtics are going to be a real threat, and wouldn't It wouldn't be so great for Celtics fans to see that Knicks team again in the play-off? Oh, man.
Tate them back to MSG.
It would be a great thing. But from the Knicks perspective, dude, the defense isn't good enough right now. The defense isn't good enough right now. You can pick on towns, you can pick on Brunson. You compare that to what's going on in Detroit, where they just have the best defense in the conference. If they're not shooting the lights out, and when I saw them beat San Antonio, that core group of Five Guys is one of the best offensive groups that you can have on the court. The problem is on the other end, and is that really a championship-level defense? For me, I'm sorry, I think the answer is no.
Multiple guys to pick up.
Right. Point of Both attack and rim protect. Mitchell Robinson changes the geometry for them. But point of attack, just like the Lakers, we can pick on you there and you don't protect the rim particularly well. What are you doing good on defense?
I feel like I ask this question every three weeks, but would you think about Davis for Towns?
They love the Kentucky guys. That's an interesting one. I don't think so.
A couple of weeks ago, the answer was no, because Towns was having a good year, and Davis had him proven he could even stay in the court. Now, I think it's a little more reasonable.
What about the honest stuff? Do you think that's in play for them?
I just don't think it's conceivable this season. I just don't think it works from a trade machine standpoint.
You would take the field over the next in the Eastern Conference?
I would take if you just gave me New York on one end and Detroit, Boston, Cleveland on the other end, I would take Detroit, Boston, Cleveland. I think it's more realistic one of those three teams win from what we've seen the last two weeks.
Yeah, we're aligned. I mean, by the way, we should say the Knicks have a four-game losing streak at the exact time the Celtics have surged.
The bigger issue for me with them is there's two teams in the East that I think are just bad matchups for them, Detroit and Boston. Boston has all these dudes to throw at Brunson. And when Tatum, I don't know what happens when Tatum comes back, how many minutes he's going to have, but I think they like the matchup against the Knicks. And then Detroit is built to beat the Knicks. And they have a million guys to throw at them. They're tougher than the Knicks frontcourt. And that's just going to come down to how good is Mitchell Robinson going to be in that series, I think, if it's Knicks Pistons.
We saw it last year.
We saw it last year. He swung the series.
New York is as good as they were last year, but Detroit is much better. Detroit took them out last year, arguably could have without a bad call.
Duren is a different guy? Yeah. I'd be a little worried if I'm the Knicks, but we've learned over the years, don't get to anything one way or the other when it's game 36. I don't think it's a good sign where they look now. I could see them turning it around. But you made the key point. They have two guys on defense you can just pick on. Number 7, Minnesota, 23 and 13. I'd still continue to think they're underrated because how good Ian is and they know who they are, and I'm sure they'll figure out some point guard, some way to make that a little better. The only point I had on this team was, I think Randall and DiFincenzo for towns was just a great trade. It's interesting to have a trade that was that big that a year plus later, I feel like both teams would still do it.
Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, that's a good point.
Where it's like they would just, no hesitation, still say yes, which usually you have a trade and then a year later, it's like, the warriors with Jimmy Butler I know they didn't give up that much, but are they as excited about that trade seven months later? Probably not, right? You go through and most teams are like, I don't know. Celtics number 6. I've talked about them too much on the pod, but I just think... I said to Sal on Sunday, this thing with Tatum coming back whenever he comes back, trying to fit into how different the team is now and how different they play and how runs through Jalen and the two guards. They don't walk it up. They're always trying to make decisive moves. There's a lot of movement. And Pritchard and White, and then Simons, when he comes in, have the ball a lot. And this was a team that was very Tatum dependent, walking it up, trying to decide people standing around. And I just don't think that's the team anymore. And the two bigs, the way that they're, as I mentioned earlier, are able to screen for the guys 20 feet from the basket.
He's never really had that before. So On paper, you're like, just replace Shireman and some Hauser and some Minot and replace some Minots and just put Jason Tatum in there. They're going to be better. But I need to see it.
Well, we've seen it. Some stunning stats, the way I look at the game. In the last 15 games, they have the best record in the NBA. They have the best net rating in the NBA. They have the best offense in the NBA.
And they have some really good wins. And They've gone toe to toe with almost all the good teams at this point.
Yeah, they do, and they look good. And that's what I'm saying. The way I look at the game, it's like, why am I supposed to think that New York is better than this team? Certainly recently, they haven't been. And then the most compelling player in the next four months in the NBA is Jason Tatum. I just told you the record over the last 15 games, the foundation is so much better than any of us thought it was five months ago. I'm so impressed with the depth of the Boston Celtics, the next man up thing, the Spanish rookies they're finding, Kata's ability to be so much more energetic, Mizzoula's ability to re-imagine the offense around Jalen Brown in a high usage role, and Derrick White, who's not shooting it particularly well, but doing everything else perfectly. Dude, if you're getting your first-team All-MBA guy back on top of this, it becomes the most interesting story in the second half of the NBA season.
Yeah, it's funny. I look at it, I really miss his rebounding in his defense. I thought he was a great rebounder, especially when you go against some of these teams that are bigger. I think he was 11th rebounding last year.
I forget where he was. It's the most underrated part of his game.
He's a massive- He was 10 rebounds a game. And in play-offs, that goes up to 12. So I think just getting the rebound in the defense and how smart of a... Just fit into whatever whatever's happening where he is, just getting that. We don't need him to score 30 a game on this team anymore. He needs to fit in with the other stuff. But he's Jason Tatum. He was third in the MVP last year, and we've never really seen a situation like this. There's also Jalen went up a level. I think from running an offense through a team, I'm sorry, running an offense through a guy, Jalen's as good as Tatum is right now with running an offense through him. The way he's able to use his teammates and the shots that he's able to get. He's moved to the same level as Tatum. So it's a good problem to have, but it is a problem.
And it's another look. It's like when the Spurs could win with Timmy on the post and then run Manu off the bench and he's slashing and they're playing a different game. This whole Spanish pick and roll stuff they have going on with J. B, it is another look. Their offense is completely different. And then when Tatum comes back, they can throw different looks. It's almost like having different pitchers to throw at a batter.
One thing I was thinking was when they do the five out, which they've done a lot more of this year, and they have... It'll be like Hauzer and somebody else in the corner, Simon's in the corner, whoever, with Jalen running it, and then maybe a guy coming up. But just him as the focal point, trying to either find people or shoot a two. You put Tatum in the corner now, which they never really did last year. Jalen would be the one that was always in the corner. Corner. You moved Tateum as a supporting guy, playing off Jalen. We never really saw that enough. Even in the finals, when they were doing the dueling banjos thing, they didn't have the five out the way it works now, I don't think.
To your earlier point, imagine Jason as that crashing rebounder coming off the weak side when Jalen's running this current action. He is such a down. He's never got to do that.
Or could Jalen send him pics? Could he send him the Garza type I don't even know if he'd be good at that. We never saw it. The key is they need to get him back. If he's going to come back beginning of March, I think, to see it work for two months, ease him back, play him 15, 16 minutes a game, and just make it additive. Don't make it seem like, All right, you're back. You're Jason Tatum again. I don't think they can do that. I don't think they will.
I have two questions for you that I'm sure your audience wants to hear you answer about the Boston Celtic. The first one is, what are the streets talking about with Jason, the timetable with this thing.
It's always been all-star break, march range. I think they're rightfully super hesitant about it. I think the thing that's changed... It was funny watching him at the Clipper game on It doesn't matter. He goes to all the games. He's part of the team. He's coming back. There's no question. I think what was interesting was they were going to be in a position a little like Indiana right now. That was the worst-case scenario of the season.
Yeah.
Well, what What happens if we're 10 and 29 and he's ready to come back and you have to be like, No, dude, hold off? That's completely flipped. Now it's like this team is an actual contender. So of course, he's coming back. And what would be the point of him not coming back? If he's ready to play, it's a 10-month injury. Why would he want to wait till October to play basketball again? He's in his 20s. So he's coming back.
That's my second question then. If this guy comes back and he's 85 of Jason Tatum, do they immediately become the favorites to win the Eastern Conference, or is it like a Jordan and number 45 Jersey era?
It's going to take a minute. I don't think they're the favorites. I think we've seen this too many times with guys coming back. The most famous one, somebody sent me an email about this. I apologize. I can't remember the person, but about the '04 Kings. It became Page's team because Chris Webber was hurt. The Kings fans were like, Oh, when Chris Webber, as soon as he comes back, this is going to be awesome. Then Chris Webber came back and it screwed them up. Now, Chris Webber was broken down at that point of his career for the most part. I think that was the difference. Tatum is not going to be broken down. He's going to be healthy. But it's not perfect. There's been scenarios where guys have come back and it hasn't gone the way people thought.
Well, let me say it for you because I made Zack say the Spurs were in pristine shape the day after Christmas. And I'll say it for you. I think the Boston Celtics are in a very, very strong position if they get 80% of Jason Tatum in March.
The one thing that I think is unquestionably changed is they were definitely going to try to get under the first apron and completely reset everything and try to figure out how to trade Simons and do those trades like, Simons for Malik Monk, and you save six million, and you pay somebody to take Tillman, that stuff. They're not thinking that way anymore. And Simons If you're doing six million of the year, he's in the running now. When Simons is 14 points a game and he comes in, he's getting more and more comfortable. I think the saving money thing is gone. And they have a new owner who hasn't ever rooted for a good team before, Chisholm, who everybody speaks highly of. It's not like he's going to be going, Yeah, no. Can we just cut another six million? This guy's like, Holy shit, we're good. I thought I bought a lemon. Number 5, Detroit, 27. 9. We talked about them. It would be interesting. The big thing for them is give it a year or go for it. Houston number 4, 22 and 11, a little bit in the same issue of they could get wacky and just do like Fred Bambuit in a contract and some of their picks and just say, Fuck it, and try to get Trey or John Moran or one of these dudes.
But I don't think they will. I think they'll.
I think they'll. I think they're good. They're good. They won that tough game last night. This is where I I thought they would be overall, but I've been shocked at how competent their offense has been without Fred VanVleet. But the offensive rebounding, the historic stuff it bears mentioning, it's like they're just punishing people. I know Shaneuven is missing some time, but Steven Adams is still just the most dominant offensive rebounder in the league, and it gives him an identity. Like you said, what did they lack last year, Bill? The guy who could make the exact shot that Kevin Durant made last night.
I do my all-MBA, three teams every week, just to update it. So I have it in my head. And I think Durant's played his way into the third team. I think there's two Rockets that you would have to put in the top 50 now. And I think Booker's on there, too, would be the other guy.
Thompson looked electric last night, too. Thompson's on the bubble.
Thompson's another one where it's like, Oh, man, you might have to throw the stats out with him. Number three, San Antonio. I mean, we've talked about them on the Ringer all over the place the last couple of weeks. We'll see. Am I getting Wemby healthy in April, May, and June? And there's no way to know. No way to know. But I just want to see him play for three straight months, please.
The biggest development there is, even if he's not there, they're a good team, which is crazy. I was out on the Spurs for a playoff spot this year, in large part because I didn't believe without Wemby, they could walk and chew gum at the same time. They've done more than that. Fox has fit in, and then the young guard's Castle has made the leap. Dylan Harper. I don't know which of these two guards I like more. I go back and forth. I love them. And then Harrison Barnes, Champagne, Keldon Johnson. This, Lou Cornet. This is just...
Cornet signing was great.
It was great. And Harrison Barnes was giving them...
He's the Celtic we missed the most out of all the guys that left.
Well, do you think the Celtic should get in the market for a Gaffard or another big? I think they're going to compete this year. That front court, as good as Kate has been, Garza, it's a nice story. Do you want to bolster that front court a little bit?
I think there's buy-out potential with somebody. I'd be really surprised if they did a trade. Sometimes when it's going really... I think Phoenix is probably in the same boat when you have something really special going on with a group of guys that just like playing basketball with each other. I don't want to fuck with it. You saw Cleveland do last year when they were playing great, and then they did that Hunter trade, and they've never been in the same sense. It's not his fault, but it messed with their chemistry.
Yeah, Jerome was a big part of their vibe.
One thing I'll say about San Antonio, because I did a lot of research on them, and I was trying to figure out if I'd want to make a move or not, if I was them. Keldon Johnson, there was a huge piece about him last week. Keldon Johnson is the emotional fulcrum of their team.
They love him.
He's the guy in that team. And it's like, if you're making a big trade for somebody with them, him and Barnes have to be in it. And I think those are two huge locker room guys for them. I don't see them doing anything.
Keldon was like, this neither here nor there guy for a few years. And it's an incredible teaching lesson because what happened, Bill, was like, they just got deeper. He slid down a notch or two in their rotation and then became the energy guy and one of the best energetic off the bench rebounders in the league. And just this, I'm going to be Mr. Effert, like P. Kenneth Farid. The arena just loves him. I don't think you could move him. They're another team that I just don't think you mess with this chemistry right now.
Couldn't agree more. Unless Trey Murphy became available, then you have I don't really probably think about it at that point. Denver, number 2, 24 and 12, and everyone on the team is hurt. The only thing they really say about this is, Hey, I miss Jokuj, but just miss him. I'm like the weatherman, the sports guy and anchorman. I just miss. I miss your scent, miss your musk. Maybe you and I should get an apartment together. I just miss Jokuj. I just miss him.
There's a five-year sub-genre of the Simmons podcast where you talk about Embiid playing Jokich and Embiid ducking the smoke. And we missed that last night. That would have happened last night.
I know.
So we missed him. But, dude, there's a quirky here that this Denver team, with all these injuries, stumbles into some depth for the long term.
They're getting reps for dudes that wouldn't be playing otherwise.
Picket's the one that... Man, I've always loved that guy, and he's a five-tool player, and I'd love to see him find his way more into the rotation. Maybe last night, he was excellent in that win, but this is still the best offense in the league.
Did you see they're averaging almost 100, or before Jokuj got hurt, it was Almost 125 points a game. Just 125 points a game. I didn't see that. That's why with some of these stats, I almost feel like we're heading toward where baseball hit in the mid '90s when the baseball stats, for different reasons, started to become crazy. And you almost couldn't compare errors anymore. It's like, how am I going to compare this to something in 1977? I feel if you actually go, you just go in basketball reference or whatever, and And you just look at the points per game, all the guys, and all the guys averaging 22 points a game or shooting 40 % per three. It's fucking bonkers. It's like 60 guys, it feels like.
Dude, the one that I had in my notes, I'll go back to it just because it makes this point. Like, Kon Kinippel is hitting 44 % of his threes on over eight per game. That's one of the best three-point shooting seasons ever. He's a rookie, but it's like there's so much shooting talent now. His office efficiency is through the roof. And And you're right. It's inflated some of the numbers like Balco did back in the day for- It really feels that way.
Shaden Sharp is averaging 21. 6 points a game. Josh Gidey is averaging Nine and nine. A Bulls team nobody cares about. It's just really hard to figure all this stuff out. So we agree on Denver. I think the only thing for them is if they fall past... They can fall past four. They can't fall on the seven, eight, nine, 10. I think they need to... Six has to be the basement for them if Jokuj is actually out for a while. They're still whatever. They don't care if they don't have home game sevens. They don't care about that shit.
They're so much better than they were last year. If they're whole, Jamal Murray looks better. They have a deeper group. Brown is getting a little bit better. I think the coaching staff is in a better spot. And they brought the Thunder to the brink last year. So They sure did. Nobody wants to see them in the playoffs. If they end up at seven or eight or whatever, dude.
Well, let's end on the Thunder, because we said this is going to be an hour, or almost an hour and a half. Thunder, 30 and seven, four and four in their last eight, 13. 3 net rating still, which is still number one. I have my theory for, I don't want to say what's wrong, but what's maybe a mildly alarming. What's your theory?
Dude, I think the NBA changed on December 12th or 13th when the first Spurs win happened in Vegas. I think that changed the temperature in the Western conference. A week later, Bill, this is the canonical moment of the season. Finch, who hates the Thunder, has publicly said he hates how the Thunder play, goes into that game in Minnesota, and he's ready to explode. Sure enough, he gets a chance, he gets ejected. The Thunder are 6 and 6 in their last 12. But I looked at the numbers and the craziest thing I found is that Shea Gill is Alexander. Since that Spurs game, he's gone from the fifth most fouled player in the NBA to the 31st most fouled player in the NBA. His free throws are way down. His ability to draw fouls has magically decreased substantially since peaking before then. And J Dub is the other thing. He has not clicked in with this group the way they expected.
He was in my notes.
So between SGA's reduced free throw line activity and J Dub's lack of cohesion with this group, Simply put, this isn't the juggernaut that I thought they were December 10th. This is not the juggernaut that was, what, 24 and one? And I think it's good for the league. I still think they're the favorite. Don't get mad at me, Thunder fans. But I think this is just like they've come back to Earth a little bit.
I still have them as the favorite. I think Jalen Williams, I'm betting on him to come back and be fine, but he has not looked the same, and he should have gotten better, not worse this season. I had him as the 13th best player coming in this season. Now you wouldn't have him top 25, most impactful from what we've seen. The fear, if you're a Thunder fan is, although you did win the title, so there's not that much fear, and you have a million draft picks and the best foundation in the league. The fear would be That 24-on-one start, was that a little like when Phoenix started really well that year after they made the finals? Then they peaked in December or the Warriors when they had the 25-game winning streak to start the season, they win 73, but then they don't win the finals. Here's what I'm looking at. I think it's as simple as this. When they don't make threes, they're pretty beatable now. I went back and I looked through their six losses, four of which I watched. The three San Antonio games, two of them, they were 24% from three and 25% from three.
And the third one, they gave up 130. Spurs made everything. Minnesota game, 28% from three. The Phoenix loss, a couple of nights ago, 31% from three, and they got out rebounded by 20. And then Charlotte last night, 28% by three, got out rebounded by 19. My question, big picture with Dourt, who last year was 41% from three and is now 33. Caruso, who was 35 last year, is now 30. My big question is, is the league becoming better enough offensively that you can't get away with as much Dourt and Caruso as they were able to get away with last year? That you actually need a little more, even though their offense is up there, I think it's probably in the top eight. But just in some of these games, is that why this is not going to be a team that wins 74 games because their offense is not reliable enough?
Yeah, last night, they It was the most head scratching result of the year, in my opinion. They lose at home to the Hornets. And it was, again, weird. They get killed. They could not make their perimeter shots. They lose confidence. The announcers are saying shit like, Oh, there's a lid on the rim. They just can't get it. And it's like, yeah, that's it. And if you look at the numbers, they have the 20.
It's worse than that, though, because it's like this guy's open for a reason three is that they're missing. Caruso, nobody's guarding him anymore. That's a real issue for them. Anyway, I interrupted you.
No, I remember noticing the Spurs really doing that. Caruso beat us, and I think he was like, oh, for 12 or one for 13. He finally made one in garbage time or something. But that is something to watch because the offense bill in this 12 game, I'm not going to call it a total slump, but by their standards as a slump is 22nd in the NBA over the last 12 games. We haven't seen them down there. You can't slice the pie anywhere last season and find a stretch like that.
And the rebounding is a little bit of a concern.
And Hardenstein is out, and that's a big part of it. But I do think, to your point, if there's a crack in the foundation, it's on the offensive end of the court, specifically beyond the three-point arc.
I think when you have guys who you used to rely on in a real way who are now not being guarded, it's a red flag. The Celtics played the Clipper Saturday night, the game I went to. They were like, John Collins, Chris Dunn, Matum, knock yourself out. You're going to be a alone in the corner. If you make them, God bless you. And Collins made a bunch in the first half. They were like, We're going to stop Kawhi. We're going to give you this shot. Take it. And teams are doing that now with OKC. And then when they play San Antonio, who has Plastic Man in the middle, taking away Shay's mid-range game, and they're not guarding Caruso, when you don't have that second guy out there who's supposed to be Jalen Williams, that's where they become a little more beatable. I'm surprised, though. I really thought I thought they were such a juggernaut and so in tune with who they were. I really thought it was going to be hard to believe when anybody beats them. Now I'm not surprised. Now, you made to keep boy, Hartenstein's been out. It does hurt them from a rebound.
But I do think Presti will maybe tinker with this team a little bit. I wonder whether it's like, could Dort be the guy or Caruso? Do you trade one of those guys, move Kaysan Wallace into that role, play Mitchell more and try to use a Dork contract in a pick and try to get somebody really good to add. I don't know.
It's just crazy how fast things change. I remember when I was talking about the 24 and 1 Thunder and how great they were, I was on with Zack, and I said, Hey, a year ago at this time, the Celtics were clear favorites in the NBA Championship that ended up being the Thunders. It happens really fast. I'm not saying that's what's happening here, but just as a fan of the NBA, it's a lot more interesting when there isn't this absolute buzz saw destroying everybody at the top of the league. We can start to see a path for Denver or San Antonio or Houston to at least give these guys a seven-gamer.
Dorts. Dorts was born in 1999, which I don't fully understand. It feels like he's like 35. It's Canadian years. Caruso is 32, though. If you're going to decide we need more offense from one of those two guys, it's upgrade time. That would be I think it's too early for them to panic, though. I'm not panicking if I'm not.
Yes, that's what I would like to end on as well. They deserve to be the favorites. They are still a pretty big juggernaut in this league.
But there's a blueprint a little bit now. Fucking rebound. And as dumb as this sounds, try to outscore them and leave Caruso alone. And maybe he'll go 0 for 9, 0 for 10, 1 for 10. And that's, I guess, the blueprint. I still feel like Jalen, I believe in Jalen Williams. I think the way this gets fixed is he goes up a level because we know he has it in him.
And has there been an adjustment to the foul baiting stuff, or is that a byproduct of something else?
No, that's a good point.
I got to look at the numbers. I don't know if it's an officiating thing or people are figuring out how to defend him, but that's another thing to watch.
Listen, they can't figure out fucking James Harden still. He got five calls in the game I went to Saturday night. We're like, Oh, my God. You guys are still falling for this? James Harden He just sees four people in the paint and drives toward them like he's Derek Henry trying to get a first down. He's like, I'm just going to flail my...
The giant beard gets tilted up into the sky and the refs are just... They have no choice but to blow the whistle at that point.
I'm sure he's a nice guy. I just can't watch him anymore. I hate watching him in person. I just hate it. He's my least favorite player to watch because I've just... 15 years of watching him just try to get fouls. I just don't enjoy watching it.
I don't like it either.
I hope he's in a I don't like it. I just don't like watching it. Anyway, Kirk Goldsbury, a pleasure as always. Say hi to everybody in Texas.
Thank you, Bill.
All right, we're taping this on a Monday afternoon. We just did a rewatchables mailbag, Craig Horbeck, Chris Ryan. All three of us have teams in the NFL tournament, as Mike Vrabel calls it. Do you hear that? He keeps calling it the tournament. Why? He's like, Well, now that we got the tournament, win or go home. I don't know. It's just a Mike Vrabel thing. Okay. This is how we feel in about our team's check. Craig Horbeck, giant Stealers fan. Now, giant Aaron Rodgers fan.
Make the case. I have been all year. I'm tickled to be in the playoffs with him. What a fantastic close to the season. I think he's been underratedly great this entire year. All the offfield stuff and people not liking Aaron Rodgers anymore has colored the fact that he's been fucking great this year.
You're growing with great? Yes.
For a 42-year-old coming off in Achilles, I think he's been very, very good.
You were talking on fantasy last night about that Ravens game, and I really liked what you were saying because I noticed it, too, the way he was essentially building a castle out of sand every snap where he's calling out his protections. He's got three guys off the street playing wide receiver.
His helmet wasn't working? Yeah. Couldn't He couldn't even talk to Arthur Smith, and he's drawing routes on his hand to Pro Bowlers from 2017. The fact that he'd won that game with Adam Thielen, Marquez Valdes, Scantling, and Scottie Miller is incredible.
It is a weird what-if of the last four years or whatever it's been, where if he had just landed in a better situation than New York, I wonder what the last couple of years of his playing career, specifically, would have been like.
I also think he just played it right this year. He's been incredibly complementary of Mike Tomlin, of the city of Pittsburgh, the fans, why he wanted to be with this organization, the leadership. It seems like since he's been in the league, players like him. Whether or not fans do, players seem to really like him. When they played the Jets, like Brees Hall is still tweeting about Aaron Rodgers. I'm on board. I want him back for next year.
Want him back? Yeah.
What else are we going to do?
I was just looking at his stats. He threw for over 3,300 yards, 24 TDs, seven picks.
He played every game.
Yesterday was his masterpiece, though, because I couldn't believe how bad his receivers were, and they were talking about it during the game. He just wants people that knows what he can do at the line of scrimage and basically smart people who weren't good at football anymore.
There was one point where he had Thielen. He would tell what to tell the other wide receiver. I was like, This is wild, man.
It helped that the Ravens had no pass rush, and then Kyle Hamilton collided with another guy in the team at the perfect time of the game. I don't know if Or maybe it was karma for not having Metcalf because Metcalf was a complete game changer for them. He was like four free plays a game that they could just get something out of.
Both of their horses, Metcalf and Darnell Washington, not in this game. And it was a huge deal. Now, I feel honestly, the Texans, I think for the Steelers, are one of the better matchups they could have gotten. That's another... Obviously, the defense is great, but I don't trust C. J. Stroud. I think this game is going to be in Pittsburgh on Monday night. I think this is a solid matchup for the Steelers.
It's going to be a really good game.
I also think There's games on Saturday, Sunday, and Monday. Rodgers getting the extra day or two, I think is a big deal. T. J. Watt getting the extra day or two, I think is a big deal. The Steelers have that ridiculous home record on Monday night. They haven't lost since 1991 at home on Monday night. Really? Yeah. They also haven't won a playoff game since 2016.
Well, there's also the voodoo that they've had all year. Yesterday was probably the peak of it. Oh, then maybe the five turnover game with the Pats was pretty good, too.
I was on record six weeks ago saying they should fire Mike Tomlin. So this team is So Metcalf is back to the playoff.
Durnal Washington, no.
Don't think so.
But you have Ken Gainwell, the most explosive pass catching running back in the history of football.
Gainwell and Warren are Jameer Gibbs and David Montgomery in my mind.
The thing is, He's so good at bending the rules during a game and just being like... Sal and I talked about it on Sunday night, the friar move pass route where he runs to the back of the end zone and then just does the James Harden into the safety. Just flails in hopes to get a pass interference. It feels like they run plays specifically to try to get pass interferences.
Yeah, he's doing all the old man, like post game moves.
Yeah, totally.
He's trying to catch 12 men on the field. There's no other quarterback still doing Yeah.
Colin, he doesn't care about when he uses timeouts. He's just like, I don't really like what I'm seeing there, timeout. It's like 15 minutes left in the game. But I got to say, I thought there was no chance this was going to work. I thought he was completely washed last year. He didn't want to be hit. Now you think of them as a home dog. I couldn't agree more in Houston.
I just couldn't believe also last night. I know there were so many twists at the end of that game, but for the final shutdown drive that they had, I can't believe he's that age. And after everything that's happened, I'm still like, that's too much time for Rodgers.
Dude, there was two minutes left with no timeouts. It only took him 55 seconds and no timeouts to go score with Thielen, MBS, Calvin Austin, and Scottie Miller.
I mean, he had the G-Leaguers in the secondary, I guess, would be the only reason. But I think they really fucked up these field position things. Because I've been thinking about that. I'm really worried about Jacksonville for the Patriots if we can get by the chargers because I think Jacksonville is really good. They had this kicker that if you're at midfield, he can make a field goal. You could go up three with three minutes left, two minutes left, whatever. They return it to the 32. They get one first down and they're in field goal range. I don't like it. I don't think they did a good thing with this.
I agree because it's compounded with... They changed the kickoff rules where you started the 35-yard line. And then also they've allowed these kicking balls this year, where basically teams are allowed to prepare the football All season long when they used to just get the day of the game. And so now the footballs are so much more worn in. So kickers are way more accurate with them and they can kick them further. So it's like that with the 35-yard line thing, I hate it. I'm okay with the kicking balls because it's like, if these kickers can be more accurate, This is their actual ability we're seeing, and I'm cool with that. Sure. But I think we need to move the field position back.
I'd like the 25, not the 35. If I'm at the 25 with the way the kickers can kick the ball now, I at least have to go 35 yards.
I wonder if that gets offset by everybody going for it on fourth down now, though. Probably not.
It's just made it so much easier to score points. I remember there was a game, I think it was when Philip Rivers, his first game back against Seattle or whoever it was. It was Philip Rivers, who's 45 years old and hasn't played in six years, and he needed 17 yards to get a field goal, and of course, he did. I'm like, Philip Rivers shouldn't be able to easily bring the team back and score points in the final seconds of a game. This is too easy.
Yeah, I feel like we've lost the concept of field position because when field position actually comes into play in a game, you really feel it now. Will there be these games, whether it happens to your team or whether a team you bet on or picked, and it feels like all of a sudden they just can't get out of their own 15. And over and over again, they're 15, and they just can't get over the hump of getting out of there. It's like, yeah, this should be what football is like more often. Then I just gave up a countdown. I'm already on the 34, and I need to go two first downs, and I'm back in the game.
The problem is the NFL wants kick returns. They want kick offs, and you have to put the ball at the 35 to incentivize people kicking the ball inbound so that they're-So that they're not doing the touchback. It's like a rock in a hard place thing, but I think they need to figure out the kickoff situation. Starting at the 35 is ludicrous to me now.
I would get rid of field goals completely in overtime. You have to score. They're just gone. Got to score. It's got to be a touch down. You got to get a two point. And that's it. And in the playoffs, I think that would be a great Every possession or manner.
The drama of last night of Boswell missing and the loop missing.
We were talking about that before we started taping the mailbag. I hope everybody learns now that you're never close enough on a night game when you're playing in a place like Pittsburgh. Twelve seconds left on the 20. They're on the 22.
They were on the 25. It was going to be a 42-yarder, 12 seconds left with a timeout. They could have easily thrown a seven-yard pass and made it a 35-yarder. Instead, Lamar- Or go play action, go for the kill.
Yeah.
Lamar takes a negative two-yard Neil and makes it a 44-yarder on the road, outdoors in Pittsburgh. For a rookie is tough.
I've never liked that. Even when it works out for your team or the team you bet on, it still makes me... I hate relying on these dudes. Then this poor guy's life is ruined now.
I know. And Tariko, laying that up when he was like, They searched far and wide for a kid who could deliver in this exact moment.
I thought he was great. I thought they did an awesome job. You're not a braided guy.
As an announcement? Yeah. No, I'm not.
But what are your critiques? I agree with you. I just want to hear your take as somebody who didn't grow up with it.
Where do I start? I think he's incredibly stiff and robotic. I think he doesn't know what words are going to come out of his mouth when he starts a sentence. And he's so much better whenever you see him on a podcast or like, Coward or Eisen or wherever he goes. He's so smooth and natural. And the second... It's ironic that Tom braided shutters when the lights are on because it's the opposite of who he is in the field. But he He's just so stiff and wooden, and it's bad across the board.
Because everybody was like, I think he's going to have a hard time being candid if he's the co-owner of the Raiders and has this involvement. I don't think that's mad at all. I don't think he's had any problem being candid. If anything, I find his sports media appearances to be pretty on... He's really up front. But it does feel like in the booth, it's not that it's moving too fast, but that he doesn't have the same level of insight that he does when he's got a little bit more time the lights aren't as bright. I don't know. It's funny.
He doesn't seem relaxed. Like, Akemen is just hanging out. You feel like you're at a bar with Akeman.
Same thing with Collinsworth. They wait for the... There's a pace to how they do it. They don't need to feel like they have to talk just to say something. They don't have to feel like, I'm making words. Words are now coming out of my mouth. You never feel that way with those guys.
They also have things that they're interested in, things that they hate. Akemen's obviously got his bugabooze that he will tee off on. Yeah. Braided has He hasn't gotten there yet with that stuff.
No, he also hasn't figured out his announcement voice. You know how sometimes when you record a podcast remotely and you have the headphones on, you yell louder than you should? Yeah, all the time. Yeah. He's doing that where he feels like he's actually speaking to millions of people who are in a room with them. He always has this like, yell cadence to him when Akemen and Collinsworth are just like, laying back and talking.
So you do this on the fantasy football show, but do your braided impression.
Baker Mayfield here, KB, drops back. Just can't find anyone KB and ends up throwing the ball away. Just a brutal play for the Tampa Bay offense.
It's just repeating what Burkard has just said, but as analysis. Yeah.
So he does that, but he did this during the Lions-Bears game where he assumes this importance to things that aren't that meaningful. Obviously, this is a massive, massive play for the Lions. It's like, there He's out of the play. There's a massive play. These guys are going to a Ruba tomorrow. But then I think that thing that's frustrating about him is there will be these moments during the game when all of a sudden for like 45 seconds, he's really good. When he brings in his own experiences with stuff, and all of a sudden it's like, Oh, that's Tom braided.
Do you think that there's a majority of football fans are like, It's just pretty cool that Tom braided is calling this game?
Maybe. I can't tell if I'm inside of a bubble.
Like 57% of people watching a football game or just like, That's pretty cool.
Probably, yes.
Because I think we get caught up on like, That should be Greg Olson. He's so much better or whatever. But I wonder if a lot of people are like, Is that Tom braided? Awesome.
I just feel like it's Collinsworth and Akeman. Then it drops off and there's a couple of other guys. I thought JJY was pretty good this year. I didn't mind when he did the games. Olson was okay during the Miami Pats game yesterday, but he's with Joe Davis, who I'm just not a fan of.
Also, man, what is aged worse than everybody being afraid that braided being in these pregame meetings was going to help the Raiders.
It's the funniest thing. I mean, they already fired Pete Carroll. I would argue he's been a disaster. If he's the conciliarian for the Raiders, this couldn't have gone worse. Plus taking Ashton Genti, the sixth pick when you can't block. Yeah.
I mean, you got to fire him just because if you're going to rebuild, you're the number one pick in the draft, you're probably going to take Mendoza or Dante more. You can't start over with Pete Carroll, who's probably going to be there for a year or two more anyway.
I'm not entirely sure if football is going to work in Vegas.
Fernando Mendoza might be the worst fit in the city of Las Vegas that I've ever seen. He's the least Vegas-Vegas guy.
But that might be what they need. They need a guy who's like, I have no interest in Black Jack.
He's like, What is roulette? It's black and red.
I just want to play football.
Yeah, he's just I just go to the Sphere and I play football.
He strikes me as like, from the producers of Russell Wilson, we bring you Mendoza.
He's Kirk Cousins.
It's a weird one. How do you feel about your team?
I was going to ask you about this.
I want to ask ask you about this. You're an Eagles fan. You've won two Super Bowl last seven years.
But I want to know where are we at with the statute of limitations about when you can complain about a team that's just on a championship? Because this is a big...
It's supposed to be five years.
Yeah, and that was a different time.
It's been 10 months.
But no, I think it's just a very specific thing that I have a complaint about, which is that the offensive playbook and the execution of that playbook, it's very vanilla. It's a hard watch. It's a bummer to...
It's hard watch is the wrong word. It's an unnecessarily hard watch. Yeah, for the talent. I watch them and I'm just like, what is so hard about playing with pace and using your receivers and using… You have all these toys.
Also, it's like the Kremlin where it's just very unclear as to what's what they on a call versus what Jalen Hertz feels comfortable running. There's two competing narratives about it. Yesterday, then they played the Commanders again. I'm glad we don't have to play Commanders again. I'd rather play the fucking Niners than the Commanders again. Yesterday was a big thing where there was a contingent of Eagles fans, of which I may or may not have participated, that were like, Is it Tanner time? Would Tanner McKee run this offense more on time and it would tempo? And clearly not. Although Obviously, didn't have the skill players out there once Devante sat down.
That was when Kipp Pardou was Sunshine Roni Bass and remember the tijd? He was like, Is this guy an A-Lister? And then he was in driven. He was like, Oh, guess not.
But yeah, it's just been an irritating season.
It was like the first half of the season was like AJ versus Jalen. Then the second half of the season, we've just been spamming AJ, but the offense hasn't looked that much better. I feel like every pass, the receivers are running back to the ball. There's no such thing as Yack. In Philadelphia. And Saquon run- Have you run a trick play all year? I wouldn't even know what that would be. No, we haven't. There's barely any motion.
No. There's so many offensive statistics that just show how boring the offense is. I think there's like AJ Brown has run the least amount of snaps from the slot of any receiver in the NFL this year, which is just the easiest way to get your best guy to the ball is to move him around and he's just in the same spot.
It's one thing I've appreciated with the Pats this year is that they don't really have any great weapons other than the 50% of the time Diggs plays. Henry's a good tight end. He's probably a top eight tight end. The running backs are pretty good. But the way McDaniels uses everybody, you feel like he's put real thought into, Oh, and then the second quarter, we're going to run that fake reverse. When I watch the Eagles, I don't see any of that. It just feels like they just want to take 35 seconds of play, go slow, methodical, kill the clock for some reason.
It's like, Why do you want to kill the clock? If you watch the Hard Knocks, Seriani runs through this If we win the turnover battle, we're like 57 and one. That's the whole thing. It's essentially like his bet is if we win the turnover battle, if we don't give the ball away. I got to admit, watching Tana Mourkey throw a pick yesterday, I was like, Oh, this sucks. We just drove all the way down the field and he threw a fucking pick on the one-yard line. I'm glad I don't have to watch this every week, but there is just something that's just really grinding. We're just in a spot where we have a CEO coach, whether or not he should be a CEO or not, but he thinks that he has an offensive system. Most teams have the play call or coach. We have lost our OC every year, either because they get hired away, like Steiken and Kelen Moore, or we fire them like Brian Johnson and probably Kevin Patulo. It's just a really tough spot to be in because you're constantly reshuffling. And I feel like... I don't know. But I have nothing to complain about.
Every other team would probably trade places.
I feel like you're allowed to complain even after you won a Super Bowl if the team has so much potential and you're not reaching any of it.
It's the endless cycle of the Eagles have a really good season, and then they allow... And then so the coordinator gets hired somewhere else. And then Siriani is allowed to pick his own play caller. That play collar sucks. They get rid of him. And then Howie's like, I'm picking the play collar. They bring in like, Kelenmore. They're good. And then the same thing happens again.
And every year, Jalen Hertz has to get to know another offensive coordinator. Now, I just wish it was more entertaining. That's all I'm saying. I guess part of what I don't understand about football, and neither do you guys, probably because we didn't play.
I played freshman year in high school.
What is this? I mean, if we're playing NFL, is it this Is it complicated when you get a new coordinator? Is it... Like, Drake may had a new offensive coordinator from last year to this year, and it was okay. Should it be this? Every time they always blame this when the offense doesn't look good, it's like, Well, it hurts, and It's like, well, it hurts and it's a new guy. It's like, How fucking hard is it?
That's a BS complaint.
I think we do a lot of... If you do ball knower side of football media and you're watching a lot of all 22 breakdown stuff, I can attest it really only matters if people can block. Saquon Barkley has just been running into the back of his offensive line all year. The last three years, whether it was Saquon or Miles Sanders or whoever, game well, we were a buzz saw. Dudes were just getting six yards of carry, and so that set up the path. Of course. Now we're just the most conservative offense because we're not actually getting anything on the ground.
I'm going to do all my pics on Thursday. I'm hoping it changed my look. I did not have a good season this year, but I still feel like I have a... I don't know. I'm weirdly confident for the playoffs. I think this was the one team San Francisco could have played in round one that they actually could probably beat.
Oh, Philly? Yeah. I think this is a tough matchup for San Francisco.
Well, every matchup is a tough matchup for them. Their defense sucks. But I was thinking about it from their side. My defense sucks. I'd want to play Philadelphia because they're going to be so slow and conservative anyway. That's actually pretty good for my defense, and they're going to be able to score on them offensively, I think, maybe. But I don't know. I didn't like any other matchup for them.
No, I mean, the NFC is really good. But flying to Philly, cold weather outdoors, Brock Perry's beat up, Trent Williams is beat up with the Eagles defense. I think it's a tough draw.
Is Brock Prudence beat up because he has that cut in his hand?
He hurt himself in the last play of the game. I think he's going to play. He's okay. I don't know.
There's some major nobody believes in us going on.
I think the Niners probably think that the Eagles a Super Bowl appearance from them a couple of years ago.
Yeah, make that case. I think this is important.
I know Niners fans who were like, You guys decimating, taking out Brock. And then I was Trey Lance was his backup. I can't remember who the backup was. Josh Johnson. No, it wound up being Josh Johnson. We may have been playing against McCafree and Wildcat at the end. I can't even remember.
It's why the NFL now, the emergency third quarterback role was created because of that game, the NFC Championship. That's right.
I think the Niners still feel like the Eagles one from them, and I think they are going to be playing with a big chip on their shoulder. That being said, I think you're right. West Coast to East Coast in Philly. It's tough. Our starting defense is really rocking.
Niners' offense is really good, though.
Our defense is really good.
It's a suspicious line.
What is it?
It's like Philly by three and a half. San Francisco sucks on defense. They're legitimately bad. It is interesting, though, Seattle only scored, what, 13 on that? What was the final score of that game? Thirteen.
Yeah, 13-3. I don't know.
I think they're scary. I'm always scared of teams in the playoffs that can move the ball because everything slows down. Everything gets weird in the playoffs. I'm looking at that one. I just don't like the way Philly looks. I thought it was so weird that they didn't care about the two-seed.
I think it's strange, too, but apparently the players were okay with it. I think people would have been losing their shit. Guess what?
It's not their job.
If Devante Smith or AJ or Saquan or Jalen Hertz had gotten hurt in that game, which totally could have happened. Brock Pretty hurting himself in the last fucking play. Yeah.
I don't know. If I get the two-seed, I get to play Green Bay, and then I get the second game at home, and it's just easier for me to make the Super Bowl. At the very least, why Why can't you play them for an hour, see what's going on in the Chicago game? It's like, holy shit, Chicago is losing.
That was funny because yesterday during the game, the play-by-play guy, who I can't remember who it was, was advocating for Seriani to Maybe bringing Hertz. Bring the starters in in the third quarter. I was like, That's how football works. These guys can't just come in cold in the third quarter and play against the commanders. They'll get killed.
I just think Philly is... They are built for winning a playoff game where they just drag you down to the mud. It's low scoring.
I'm going to land there by Thursday. Right now, I'm being seduced by this sexy San Francisco angle.
I was watching it yesterday with a buddy, and I was like, If the Eagles beat the Niners this weekend, I'll shut up by nick Seriani forever. Because obviously, it's not pleasant, it's not fun, but whatever he's doing is how you win football games.
It is weird when you have just a really frustrating team. The 2023 Celtics were like this for me, the last market smart season where they almost made the finals. But I just hated watching them all year. Whereas this year, I love the Celtics. I feel like there's a really fun Eagles team in there. Like a team I would want to watch where it's... If you're going to pay $60 million for two receivers, and then it's like you begrudgingly using them. What's the point of that?
I just think that the offensive line is just in a transition moment. It's post-Kelsey. Lane Johnson has been hurt. Leonard Dickerson has been on and off hurt. I just think that they can't block. Because they can't block, nothing I think that's right. It's almost impressive that our record is as good as it is.
Craig was a virgin the last time the Stealers had a really good playoff moment. What year was that? 2016?
Freshman football?
No, I was good then. 2016? Yeah. Did they win a playoff game there? Yeah, they win in 2016. I was going back to 2008, James Harrison.
I was a virgin in 2008. That's right. You didn't look at a girl like, It's the financial...
It's a housing crisis.
Let's go. I was 14.
16, you lost to us. God, I can't even remember. I think we waxed you. That was the last time. Yeah. It's weird. The Stewards haven't really felt like they had a chance to win a Super Bowl since the 2000s.
Was that the bullshit Heath Miller game? When he caught that pass?
No, that was regular season. Oh, yeah. But you keep Tomlin.
Yeah, Tomlin will come back.
Were you excited about that or not?
I am now.
Do you think it's Tomlin and Arthur Smith come back and they'll have some continuity?
Yeah, I think they need to get a new defensive coordinator. I I think they have the most basic, boring, predictable defense in the league. I'm like, Raheem Morris, getting fired. Raheem Morris and Tomlin are buddies. They were together in Tampa. They did an episode of Flying Coach together. Get Raheem to be the DC in Pittsburgh because that's pretty scary.
Raheem was Overqualified DC, underqualified head coach. But everybody said as a DC, he was awesome.
But the Steelers have the most expensive defense in the league or something, and it's not good.
That was the craziest thing in this season to me is that Atlanta only went 8-9. They didn't win that division, by far the most talent. Yeah. There's no question they were the best team.
They had one loss to the Jets, and if they didn't do that, they would have won the division.
Was Cousins available earlier in the season?
Yeah.
You wonder what would have happened.
Oh, Mike.
Oh, Mike.
I think we overestimated or we underestimated what another year of recovery from an Achilles tear will do. Kirk looks so much better. Rogers looks so much better.
Keep that in mind for Jason Tatum's Valentine's Day return.
That's right. Oh, man. We just need 15 Fifteen minutes a game from Tatum.
Fifteen minutes a game?
To add to this juggernaut Celtic thing. Just need him to take the Baylor shower in minutes for seven minutes a half. Will he accept that?
He just Sean Livingston.
We're just going to sneak him in. Just shoot some threes, grab a couple of rebounds. Ready to go. Who is your fantasy MVP of the year?
It's McCafee. It's got to be. For what?
You agree with my theory that if you pick Mccaffry, you probably won your draft or made the finals? Yeah.
And just the risk-reward of McCafee, if you were brave enough to take him in the first round of your draft. And then the game won. Opening day, I think it was eagles's Cowboys. That day, there was a report that came out that he had a calf injury, he had mispracticed, and everybody lost their shit. And he played every single game and ended up having just as good of a year, fantasy-wise. I think he had the exact same points per game as he did that 2023 season where he was amazing. It's unbelievable that he had bilateral Achilles tendonitis, came back and had the same year as he did in 2023.
We should do, post-football, we should do the best fantasy players of the last 35 years on my pod with you and the Danies.
Thirty-five years might be hard for me to contribute the first half.
You're from your virginity on.
No, but we could do- That's a long time.
We could just look at the stats. We could print out whatever the numbers were. Because I'm telling you, Jerry Rice in the '90s was the all-timer.
Going back to- The reason I thought of that was because I think McCafree is a first ballot fantasy guy now.
When we think of that last level of not only great, but great for eight, nine years. Tomlinson was like that. Jerry Rice was like that.
Lt was the guy when I was growing up in middle school, I started playing fantasy football. I remember he would throw for a countdown, run a countdown, and catch a countdown every year.
Was Antonio Gates good at it? No, I'm talking like the OGs, like these guys won league for you. Marshall Falk was like that for a couple of years. There were two amazing priest homes years.
Yeah, there's a couple of like many Deion Waiters seasons where it's like guys who were incredible for two years and then disappeared. Chris Johnson on the Titans was unbelievable.
Payton Hillis.
Payton Hillis was so good.
Some receivers. David Boston had a crazy year.
Josh Gordon, all-timer.
It would be funny to try to figure out the actual first ballot guys, which we could probably figure out pretty easily by the numbers. But Rice was like, he was the first one. He would go first, second, third in some of these draughts. The fantasy thing that we always talk about is this playoff league I'm in. My fantasy league with my guy, the first one I was in with my high school and some college buddies. We go through 18 weeks, top four teams advance to the playoffs. You get to keep up to six guys. Then we have a draft. To finish first place, that guy's first pick, it's not snake, and it goes one, two, three, four. First place guy, pick second in round two. You pick all the guys out of all the teams that didn't make the playoffs. If somebody had Josh Allen, they didn't make the playoffs, Josh Allen, not eligible for the draft. We do two quarterbacks, and You have an advantage if you're in first place, but the lower you go, you have to take chances and be like, I'm all in on Jacksonville making the playoffs.
Because you have to weigh how good is the player versus how good is the team.
Could I get four Trevor Lawrence games here? It's really good. It's really fun. We think it's better than actual fantasy. Plus it keeps going.
Who's the top pick? Is it Josh Allen because he's a wild card so you can get four games out of him? I mean, Drake May, I guess, is also playing round one.
Drake May is up there because you might get three games out of them. I think same thing for Josh. You get four. The problem with the league this year is that there's no slam dunk. I know this team will be in the Super Bowl.
That's the thing is I was just like, what fan is like, We could win the Super Bowl?
If you think Seattle is going to make the Super Bowl, then JSN would be a top four guy. She'd be like, I will get three games out of him. But I don't know if they're going to make the Super Bowl.
No, the NFC is so tough. There is no prohibitive favorite. I don't know. Maybe Denver fans feel really good, but it's...
No, they shouldn't. I don't. I think Seattle and the Rams have the best odds by far, and then it dips down to the Denver one. But that's why we have four home dogs in round one. I don't think any fan base feels awesome about their team. I think I know somebody from every fan base. The Seattle fans are the funniest because they just don't trust Arnold at all. Sure. They have a really good team, really well coach. Running game looked better. The San Francisco game was a big win, but you just can't trust Arnold until you see it.
Do you trust the Patriots?
I don't trust the defense. I trust the offense. I think they'll be able to move the ball, and I'm completely trust Drake because especially with Will Campbell back, they're going to be able to put drives together.
Which team would you want to see the least in the AFC Championship?
At Denver, it's complicated from a Patriot standpoint because there's some bad history there in the history of the franchise. But on the flip side, we have good history against the Chargers. We have good history against the Jaguars. I think the Jaguars have the highest ceiling of all the AFC teams because they've been really good now for two months. Everyone said the same thing. It was like, Well, the Jaguars are playing the best, but... And then you pick another team and it's like, Well, the Jaguars are playing the best. You just said it. Why can't they keep winning?
They're probably the most balanced in terms of good defense, good offense. They have both.
Yeah, and they have explosive plays and they can get third downs. Yeah.
I don't understand why Trevor Lawrence is not and Liam Cohen are not in the coach of the year and MVP conversation.
Liam Cohen should be.
Trevor Lawrence has the same stats as Drake May. He won 13 games. He won his division. He's won eight straight. I don't know why he's not in conversation with the MVP.
I think he's going to be the third.
He's like 600 to one or something compared to Stafford and May, which is a coincid.
I think it was too late when he got going. Yeah, I don't know. I'm already on the record, but as saying I was out and that he was never going to be good at football. So it's a tough one for me because I have to unwind that one. He's been really good. I don't know if it was the KC game that flipped it, that Monday Night game. But I actually have real confidence in him, which would be hilarious if I then pick them in a bunch of playoff games and then he just fucks me.
Do you care at all about Lamar and Mahomes and maybe some of the bigger teams not getting to the to the playoffs? Do you think... Because the NBA, it's like there are-No, because we've replaced those guys.
Don't you think? I feel like we have new characters.
I think football transcends at this point.
But you still need the guys. Because we had that... The beginning of the 2000s when we had Warner and braided show up, but it was basically like Manning and Favre, and there wasn't anybody else. We were like, who's... It's like Steve McDarron. It was these people that weren't even that fun to watch play football. Then it was the whole... It was an existential crisis of who were the next guys? We were putting everything on Peyton Manning. I feel like we have so many good young guys now.
Yeah, totally. We talked about this on our big year recap on the fantasy show that just the winner of the year was just the new guard replacing the old guard of Mahomes and Lamar missing the playoffs.
Burro missing the playoffs.
Burro missing the playoffs. The Bills not winning the division and having a down year for probably what they expected. Then you got all these guys. I mean, the mini winner within that category of the year is all these offensive coordinators who come in in these play callers, like Liam Cohen coming in and fixing Trevor Lawrence, Ben Johnson fixing Caleb Williams, McDaniel with Drake May. There's been so many examples of just talented quarterbacks who were struggling, and these guru play callers come in, and now the offense is great. Now we have double the amount of great quarterbacks in the league.
Yeah, even Bo Nix, who I'm not even 100% sold on, is fun to watch. I think we have a lot of fun to watch, guys. But I don't know, Lamar and Mahomes, to me, were the old guard.
I mean, they're still He was there, but I feel like he's been hurt every year.
We all knew his career was going to suck.
His career is the one that I wish... Burrow? I don't want to take him away from Bingo's fans, but I do wish Bro was in. Either had a better infrastructure around him or was on a different team and I said this to Sal on Sunday.
He's the closest to an NBA star that we have at the quarterback position.
She started to talk a lot.
It's weird. He's weird in the press conferences. He seems mad at the team, but he also signed a huge extension with them and pushed them to spend all of their money on him and two receivers. Yeah.
Then you watch the receiver. Back to Zack Taylor. He's like, It's not his fault.
Right. They didn't try to get him out. You watch the receiver.
They did not have a GM. Yeah. It's so funny.
They don't spend money. No. I watched that whole... Sal and I had the bangles and a tease, so we were wide. That was the one we lost yesterday or Sunday. Tee Higgins has guys draped all over him every play. He's never Open? Yeah. And then Chase, because he has no time to throw, it's basically like 10-yard routes for him. It's like, what's the point of having these two receivers? We can't block for them? At least the Eagles can block the two receivers you have. But I don't understand that blueprint of we need to spend $60 million in this position.
They listened to Burrow. Burrow advocated for it, and he's really throwing his weight around. He's LeBroning it a little bit where he's like, I want Zack Taylor to stay. I want you to resign Tee Higgins. I want you to draft these guys. So it's like... And they have They have tried to draft offensive linemen. They're just not working. They drafted Armin Membu, like fifth or six overall. A lot of them just aren't working.
No, they drafted... He went to the Jets.
Oh, Marius Mims, they drafted.
That's it, yeah.
He hasn't really been that great. It's tough. It's really hard to pay. The Cowboys are about to go through this right now, paying your quarterback 50 million, and two wide receiver is a ton of money. It's really hard to do that.
I think the draft is... Maybe I'm getting older and just getting better at trying to figure it out. But The Will Campbell thing was so funny as it was happening with the arm length. Just missing all this basic shit. You could tell from the moment they drafted him, he's like, I will now protect Drake May for the rest of my life. That's right. He's Drake May's best friend. They hang out all the time. He's like, My role in life is to be this man's protector. I was like, I don't understand how that doesn't come up in the draft process. You're getting this guy who's like, I was built to be a left tackle. Give me the quarterback I have to I will. He's almost like in Game of Thrones.
A lot of it is situational, right? I remember all the pods you guys did about Bo Nicks or in that quarterback class, and it's just like, if you get Sean Payton.
If Bo Nicks was on the Jets, he'd be probably terrible. Yeah. And would have been bench by now.
The problem Where it goes, really, the Pennex pick, which was one of the worst pics ever when it happened. And then the only thing you could say in favor of it was, well, if he can stay healthy. And then he gets hurt again. It's like, of course, he got hurt. He said five fucking knee injuries. And by the way, it wasn't good to begin with. It was really unimpressive when you watched him.
And he's older. I liked him in college a little bit. But Tyler Shuck is a similar example. He's 26 years old. He was on Justin Herbert's team at Oregon, which is insane. And he's had two career-rating injuries already, and he's 26 years old. And it's like, all right, we'll see what Kelen more can turn him into something. He looks all right. But it's similar to the panic situation, except they didn't take him in the first round.
But they took him 40th instead of eighth. And they didn't take him in the area as a quarterback.
The funny thing that's happening now, because I was just reading all of the portal stuff before we started doing rewatchables. All those guys are staying. The dude who's going to Texas Tech is going to make $5 million. The guy from University of Cincinnati, and he's going to go... He basically gets a rookie quarterback contract to go play for Texas Tech. So I think all the quarterbacks coming out will probably be a little bit older than we're used to soon.
Definitely. That's going to become a trend. I think Anthony Richardson was the end of the era of the quarterback.
Let's take a 20-year-old.
Just play 12 games, but he's a freak.
If you're Dante Moore, you could stay at Eugene and probably...
Well, that's the thing.
They might win a national championship this year. I think they have incredible recruits next year. He'll get paid 5 million bucks, and then he doesn't have to risk going to the Raiders or the Jets if he doesn't want to go there.
This This is where you need almost like a draft committee for athlete advice. You'd be like, Dante, here's the history of guys who came out in the NFL draft to early as quarterbacks. Now, here's the history of all the guys who played for the Jets. Don't do this, man. Just trust the process for one more year. You're going to be out of the league in five years.
The problem is the Jets are going to probably... They'll probably be picking close to the top of the first round. It's like you can't really-In '27. Then there will be more quarterbacks coming out.
It gets tricky when you try to do that. But I mean, quarterbacks have in the past, right?
The full circle would be the Jets taking somebody else and then spending money on Mac Jones. I feel like Mac Jones playing on the Jets for $28 million a year would be the Jetsiest of the Jets' outcomes.
Because you can talk yourself into it. We should rank what are the most Jetsiest outcomes that could... I think the Dolphins eating $49 million of Tua's contract, and then the Jets signing him, giving him the Russell Wilson, the Stealers $1 million a year.
We're basically getting him for free. Oh, $1 million for He'd play three games.
That's a Jetsy outcome. Or they just pay up for Kyler Murray and convince themselves that that could work.
Kyler Murray feels very Jetsy to me, too. The Jets have always been like this. I remember, it was like 30 years ago, Neil O'Donnell was in the Super Bowl against Dallas and through the worst pick of all time to lose the game. But it just was like, good, but not quite good enough. Then the Jets splurged on him because he was a winner. Then he gave the press conference where he was like, I'm a winner. We made Me and my friends made joke about it. We still joke about it. I'm a winner. I was brought here to win games. He was done in a year. You just know with some of it. If it's the Jets, I don't know what type of quarterback would succeed on the Jets, but we've tried all the types at this point. Would Drake may have worked on the Jets? I think he would have, but I don't know.
I mean, look at Drake may on the Patriots year one. Didn't work.
Running for his life. I mean, I would argue he overachieved. Yeah. He's literally running for his life all the time. Do you have an MVP thing? Just out of curiosity. I'll abstain because I've already talked about it.
I don't have strong feelings on it. I think they're both deserving. I don't have a problem. I know the one knock is like the last time an MVP won that didn't win their division was like 20 years ago. So I think that's fair. I don't know. I think Stafford- She said three wild cards this century, one the MVP. I wouldn't be upset if either one the MVP. And if I had to give it to one person, I'd probably give it to Stafford.
Yeah, sure you would. Fucking typical media.
I'll take May just because I had them on fantasy.
Did you see Tom braided picked?
I did.
Who did he pick? Miles D.
No, he picked Matt Stafford, of course. Okay.
That felt like a very stealth Josh McDaniel thing Josh has been dining on. I did everything, and I don't want Josh to get too much credit here.
Well, and just I don't want there to be a new king of New England.
Well, but it's like if McDaniel can turn May into an MVP in two years, then what does that mean about braided?
We've already debunked the strength of schedule thing because the The thing came out about all the EPA defenses each guy faced. They're basically the same. Stafford's only playing the defense of the other team. He's not playing offense. That's already been debunked. Nobody seems to care about May's running and the fact that he can scramble and use his legs. Stafford's basically can't move. He's a fossil.
Stafford threw 46 touch downs, eight picks.
I love how passionate you still get.
It's really good. Led the league in passing, led the league in touch downs.
I would be passionate if this was an NBA argument with two guys I didn't care about. I think at some point, like logic is logic. In all the cases for Stafford, it's like, I can debunk that. I can't debunk your 46 touch downs, 13 of which came on the one-yard line. You're right. I can't beat that one. But I just think what May did this year has been underrated. But I guess if he loses to the chargers in round one, then it looks stupid.
I think they're both deserving. I don't have super strong thoughts. I do think the Patriots having one of the easiest schedules of the 20th century. If you can discredit Stafford for having Puka and throwing a bunch of one-year touch downs, I can also discredit.
When they say easy schedule, they played San Francisco's terrible defense twice, and San Francisco is a playoff team. So it's like, there's a playoff team he played. I would love playing against the San Francisco defense. We went against the Cleveland defense, which was good, but Cleveland sucked.
Now, I know.
Which defense would you rather go against?
But most of the games, you only need to score 14 points to win because you're going up against the Jets and you're up by 20 at halftime.
Stafford is going to win. Everybody's our worst-sided. What? Regular Season Award? No, it's a Lifetime Achievement Award. We're finding out.
That is honestly what it is.
This is Al Pacino instead of a woman. It's like, Sorry about Godfather 2, Al.
Downey Jr. Oppenheimer.
Here's your Oscar.
I don't know. I think it's close enough where you can't be outraged either way.
I think the nerds are going to carry Drake May home this week because there's so many EPA, all that shit.
It's going to help. How can you make the case definitively for Drake May over Trevor Lawrence?
It's a good question. I think because Lawrence wasn't as good in the first six, seven weeks.
That's a good zag for you. It's Trevor Lawrence. People would respect that.
Can you imagine if I did that?
They had the same amount of yards. Trevor Lawrence had more touch downs, one less win, also won his division, also can run. I think he ran for nine touch downs.
You're leaving out stuff where the Pats had the number one offense in EPA, maybe They led the week in completion percentage and yards per attempt. I'm just saying.
But you did do this with Sal.
What was Sal's reaction? Sal, he's already pigeonholed by his Drake maybe stuff from the beginning of the year. Now, he's just reading his Drake. What do you feel about the Chargers in New I can't believe the Chargers won 11 games. There are the team- That's where I am. A lot of people are like, Chargers, underdog. I actually feel like this was a pretty good matchup for us. If we can't beat the Chargers, this whole season was a lie. You should feel the same way about your team. If you can't beat the Niners with that defense, what a fucking joke. With all the offense and all the money you've spent on your offense, you can't beat the Niners defense.
I still feel like this is my whole thing is the Eagles This is still a skip day. You know what I mean? It's like super day.
That's a good way to think.
I'd like us to win at least a playoff game.
It's right because going back to back in the NFL doesn't really mean anything. It's no history at all involved. Only five teams have done it. Shouldn't want that. You won yours already.
I'm just saying that given the evidence of what I've seen, it's not- Did you like my theory that the Eagles didn't care about the two or the three seed because they don't want to play any playoff home games because their fans hate them? I don't think that that's true, but I do think that they play freer on the road. I don't think they get booed at halftime if they've only scored 13 points or something.
How would you grade the regular season for 2025.
Across the board?
Yeah, just across the entertainment value this season.
I thought it was one of the better seasons in a while. The unpredictable ability of, I think, Mahomes and Lamar dropping out with all of these new quarterbacks, the fact that Caleb worked, Trevor Lawrence worked, Drake May worked. I think this is the most excited I've been for the playoffs in a long time.
I think it was an A plus regular season. So many twists and turns.
It's as wide. I think the Chief's downfall, it just created this vacuum of like, you could give me six different teams. I'd be like, I believe it.
A lot. There was 10 really memorable games, too. That KC Jacksonville Monday Night game was fucking crazy. The opening Baltimore Buffalo game.
The Bear's game.
That Niners Seahawks. Not Niners Seahawks. Ram Seahawks. Ram Seahawks. It was The Packers Bear's game from a couple of weeks ago was nuts. The Bills were in that One Bills Pats game was really good. There's really good games.
I don't mind. You could give me any Super Bowl matchup and I'd be like, That's cool. You could pick any two teams. I'm like, That's exciting. That's different. It used to be. I remember last year, everybody's like, Please just don't do Chiefs' Eagles. It's always like, Please just don't have to be the Chiefs again. Now I'm like, whichever team makes it, I'm excited for it.
I actually was looking this morning at the odds of a Jacksonville, Seattle Super Bowl. That would be amazing. They weren't nearly as high as I thought. It was 17 to one. How is this not like 80 to one? This is a crazy Super Bowl. Can you imagine? The Jaguars, the Seahawks.
It's nice, though, with that thing, if the Jags and the Seahawks played in the Super Bowl. Still, everybody will watch it.
It's super cool. It's not like the small market thing in the NBA where if it's the Bucks in the Suns, nobody's going to watch. It doesn't matter who's in the Super Bowl, people are going to watch.
The funny thing is the Jags are doing all of this after trading all this stuff for Travis Henner, who stopped playing for them two months ago.
I know. That's such a terrible trade in retrospect already.
And his career ended when Danny and Craig said he was basically Wanda Robinson with better PR. And meanwhile, Wanda Robinson, didn't he get a thousand yards?
He got a thousand yards, but he got an insult him to Wanda Robinson. Wanda Robinson almost did the Miles Garrett Stop the Game because he got his thousand yards.
I love when Zack Taylor got mad about that. He's like, What the fuck? We're stopping We're fighting for our lives out here.
We were trying to run tempo.
Nobody told me about this.
Settle down. Travis Hunter might not start at wide receiver next year. They have three good wide receivers.
They should just play him a D-back, though, which is what they should have done anyway. Just made him a shutdown cornerback who can come out for some third of the 10th.
I mean, this entire playoff is like the nobody believes in us playoff. Every team, it's like the bears. Do you believe in the bears? We haven't seen it from Drake May in the Patriots in the playoff. Trevor Lawrence in the Jags. It's like Sam Darnold Who do I believe in?
I was trying to think who the number one, the number one nobody believes in Us team. And the Jaguars who already were touting that for the last six weeks. And then to be home underdogss against Buffalo, a team that they've played better than for the last three months. I think they're probably number one. I think the bears are in there, too, though. I do like bears. Being underdogs against the packers who are banged up is a good one. Then the Panthers, obviously getting 10 in it. I don't know if the players understand math and how fucking embarrassing 10 and a half is, but that is like such a slap in the face. That's one of the biggest spreads we've ever had. Who were the Panthers playing?
The Rams. Who they beat, the Rams like a month ago.
And by the way, you can throw the ball on the Rams. The Rams is going to win. But set was over and over again, just beating them. It wasn't like the Rams didn't need the game yesterday.
I think Devante is going to be back, which would be big. So one thing-Stavard can throw some more one-yard touchpoints.
You think you can grab them in there? The one thing I think Who got overrated was the Houston defense, which I think peaked about four weeks ago. I'm not sure it's exactly the same defense. It seems to be giving up long balls now that they weren't before. So going back to- Did they lose a DB or something like that?
No, I think so.
They were really slappy. They gave up two long plays to the chargers. They were getting beat yesterday. It's like that could be a DK Metcalf spot for you.
Yeah, it's going to be an ugly game. I do think Rodgers looked really good last night because the Ravens had no pass rush. I am a little worried about Will Anderson and Daniel Hunter hitting him in the third series and him just being like, I'm rattled.
There's a world where you just get overrun.
Yeah, that's always the case, though, with the Steelers. It's either win by two, lose by 20.
Unbelievable. Plus, we have Sixers, Celtics in May for the Eastern Conference. I can't wait for that.
How are you feeling about the MB DeSant?
Have we ever had a situation where the Sixers and Celtics fans both love their team at the same time? I can't believe how. 2018 was the last time, maybe.
I feel such deep connection to this Sixers team now.
Like the fucking B. J. It's like, Forget Dwyane Wade, let's talk N. J.
The Grizzly's game that was a couple of nights before Christmas. Yeah, I watched that. Or after Christmas, it was like, unreal in the Philly part.
The one on Peacock, I watched that game. I mean, you have two of the most fun players in the league. My team has this Jalen Brown Renaissance and Tatum coming back and really fun to watch. Pretty crazy. I would not have predicted that we They'll be the two most fun teams in the East. I know.
It's the Cavs made way for us.
Our guy Darryl is sticking around now.
Seems like it.
Yeah. Your team's dead. I'm sorry. Your team's looking at Anthony Davis and Michael Porter Jr.
I need to get in a room with Joe Laker. Give him a piece of my mind for what he's done to us the last five years.
He'd be happy to write you back in an email if you said one.
It's tough because he can just wait- He just waited Brian Steph Curry for five years. But he could also say, We won the title on 22. We've won four. We've spent as much money as we could possibly spend. We outthought a lot of teams.
It's like you guys have had a great run. You've had a run that most people who watch basketball will never experience it.
We've been sticking to Jonathan, Kaminga, Pajemski, and a bunch of scrubs, literally for four straight years.
Yeah.
Just waiting for the right trade to come along.
Yeah. The Kaminga thing, that was just amazing. I would love to have Anthony Davis. I don't care. Kaminga this weekend when he was getting yanked around by Kerr, and then they're like, We need you. It's like, My back hurts about. It was like, We've now reached the fuck you area of that relationship. It's trade time. Yeah, it's time. It was like a week.
Do you think the Warriors are going to get anybody?
What's interesting is I thought it was going to be Porter Jr. For a little while there, which I think would have really helped them. But now he's probably played himself up into a two first-round pick type of- Michael Porter Jr? Yeah. He's been going toe to toe.
But you do know what you're getting, right?
We just watched- Or you're getting somebody who's blossoming and maybe on Denver couldn't use all the pieces of them. It's dangerous, is my point.
Steph's going to be 38 in March, and he's averaging 29 a game. And he's just been doing that. He looks the same. He looks the same as he did five years ago.
Lebron for Butler is just the trade that makes the league more fun. That is just a hilarious trade.
I'd rather jump off the Golden Gate Bridge. Lebron James on the Warriors.
They have to figure out the dream on thing, too.
I've been enjoying watching JJ's press conferences more than actual Lakers games. Yeah, me too. Where JJ's media availability after practice, where he's just like, guess everybody just had a great holiday. I didn't.
He's like, I don't know. We weren't even running plays out there. I got to work on that. We're calling the plays, they're not running them. Pretty funny. I was thinking if the Ringer worked like some of these NBA teams, how interesting that would be where if, I don't know, Sean was dream on green, and he's just taping the big picture. He just storms out of a big picture taping an hour in. It's like, We only have another hour, one hour of the big picture because Sean couldn't make it through another taping. It's literally Draymon's job to stay in the court for the entire game. You have one job. All right. Good luck with the Stealers. Good luck with the Eagles. I wish myself luck with the Patriots.
I wish you luck as well, Bill.
I hope we're all surviving for at least a couple of rounds. Thanks for popping on. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Goldsbury. Thanks to CR and Craig. Thanks to Gehal. And Eduardo. Don't forget, live Bill Simmons podcast, Wednesday, February 11th, theringer. Com/events. Yeah, we're going to do this. I have no idea who's going to be on it, but it'll be entertaining. I have a new podcast coming on Thursday as well. We'll be breaking down all the football stuff, try to change my picking look, see if we can throw a couple of wrinkles in. I will see you on Thursday.
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The Ringer’s Bill Simmons is joined by Kirk Goldsberry to discuss all the NBA teams through updated power rankings (3:16). Then, Chris Ryan and Craig Horlbeck join to talk about their favorite NFL teams and the playoff picture (01:38:38).
Host: Bill Simmons
Guests: Kirk Goldsberry, Chris Ryan, and Craig Horlbeck
Producers: Chia Hao Tat and Eduardo Ocampo
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