Transcript of An NBA Holiday Mailbag and the Jokic Scare With Rob Mahoney

The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables on Monday night. It was a special episode, me and Chris Ryan and Sean Fanteci. I made a list of my 50 most rewatchable movies of the 21st century. So from 2001 all the way through this year, the movies I'd watched the most, the movies that I just thought were the most rewatchable. I had a little goofy criteria, and I just bounced the list of CR and Sean, who were horrified. They were delighted. They were confused. It was a very fun podcast. If you like the rewatchables, I would highly recommend that one. I would also recommend the Music Box series, Season 2, wrapping up on HBO, on HBO Max. We had our last one that ran. It was called Happy and You Know It. It's about the Wacky World of Kids' Music, which is really something that's directed by Penny Lane, who did our Kenny G documentary that everybody loved a couple of years ago. We've done Jeff Buckley, Whizz-Kid, County Crows, and then Kids Music is the last one. You can find all of them on HBO Max.

Super easy to queue up. I could do a long monolog about why Drake May is the MVP, but maybe I'll save that for Thursday so Joe House can make fun of me. But as you're debating this over the next couple of days, just remember that Drake May has run for 400 plus yards and 35 TDs on top of everything else he's done and all the advanced metrics and the fact that there could be a one or a two or worst case scenario, a three-seed, and Matt Stafford is going to be a six seed in the NFC, not to sound like a Patsomer, but I just can't believe after last night that Drake May is not the prohibitive favorite. I guess he's minus 350 on FanDuel, but come on, what are we doing? Give Drake. Sorry, Drake may schedule wasn't quite tough enough. You're the MVP, you're the MVP. Coming up next, Rob Mahoney is going to join me. We're going to talk a little NBA stuff at the top, like Joker getting injured, a little topical stuff, but we're really We're going to go right into an NBA mailbag. I had a bunch of really good questions from everybody.

As always, you can send me an email at bspodcast33@gmail. Com. Rob is coming up. We're going to do a mailbag, and it's going to keep going and going. A couple of really good questions in there. So stay tuned for that. We're going to bring it Pearl Jam right after we take this break. This episode of the Bill Simmons podcast is presented by State Farm. Having insurance isn't the same as having State Farm. It's like expecting a linebacker on the football field but getting a line cook. Sure, they both can handle the pressure when it starts heating up, but only one is stopping a countdown. You wouldn't settle for just anything for your team, so don't settle for just any insurance. When it comes to getting help you need, State Farm is the real deal. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. All right, Rob Mahony is here. We are taping this Tuesday, early afternoon Pacific Time. There are some NBA games tonight. So if anything that gets mentioned over the next hour plus, if it becomes seemingly stupid, about 10 hours from now, don't blame us.

That could be the only reason. What else could it be?

Yeah, we're never going to be stupid, ever. We're going to do a mailbag. You have no idea what questions are coming. I wanted to hit some topical stuff really soon. First, Joker gets hurt. It's pretty sad. I feel like I'm an Internet doctor guy, but when I saw it, I'm like, Looks like a hyper extension. We're fine. I didn't really totally panicked, but you just never know with the ACL. I did realize he's my number one, Oh, no, so and so got hurt guy in any sport who's not a Boston guy. Just the most upset I could possibly be for a non-Boston guy potentially being injured. I was like, I went through the death spiral of, Oh, my God, No more League Pass with the Joker, no more play-offs with the Joker. I don't get the random nights where he might put a 50, 15, 17 up. And I just got really sad. I didn't realize how much he meant to me, Rob.

I mean, this time of year, There's always a little despair in the air. We've gotten through the thick of the holidays. We're rounding the corner into New Year's. But I agree with you, losing him as a League Pass entity, losing him as it seemed like he was stampeding maybe into the forefront of the MVP race with how well he's played lately. Plus, the Nuggets, despite all their other injuries, seemed like they were going to be competing for the title, and I assume still will when he comes back. But they've just been getting absolutely smacked with this stuff. He and Jamal Murray were already doing about as much as two humans in their positions could reasonably be asked to do. And yet, now, I guess it's just Jamal Murray and Jonas Valanchunis. Congratulations, Jonas Valanchunis. You now have to carry the Denver Nuggets.

Oh, my God. I am excited for his little renaissance that we're going to have here. So they're 22 and 10 heading into tonight's game. They're the three seed. Houston's 20 and 10, LA is 20 and 10, and Minnesota is 1911. Realistically, if he misses, let's say, they said four weeks, maybe that's five. Let's say he misses 16 games, and let's say they get smacked in in those games. We're going to actually find out how truly valuable he is, and we already know the answer. So let's say they go five and 11. I think they could fall as low as 6, and they're fine. I don't want to see any part of the playing game. I don't need the extra miles. I think they stay in the top six. I think his MVP case gets hurt because now his games will be in the mid '60s, and that's going to be a little tough to compete against Shay. The biggest thing to me out of all of this is that It feels like the Spurs now could get a death grip on the two seed. I think that matters because after we get past the six, and even I'm including the Lakers in the six, a team I don't even really like.

But once you get in that 7, 8, 9, 10, that's going to be a relatively easy first-round series. Phoenix will be frisky if they're in there. But is there a 7, 8, 9, 10 team you'd be afraid of in a 2, 7?

Not particularly. I would say Phoenix is the team that as you were penciling in the top six and whether Denver is going to be safe there. Denver's lead on the Suns is not so solid. I would feel great about them not being in that mix when Jokuj comes back. So I think it's completely in the cards that the Suns could catch up and worm their way into the top six during this stretch. You would think when Jokuj comes back, the ship gets right at a bit. But you're right, it does through everything for a loop a little bit. It's going to mess up the standings. Forget the MVP part of that conversation as far as Jokuj gaining ground or losing ground. He just might not be eligible by the time he comes back for the award at all. And so the conversation might be functionally over. It's such a loss to miss out on all of that stuff amid everything else going on in the NBA. The Nuggets have been one of the most enjoyable teams, one of the most enjoyable stories. As you said, Jokuj Just a joy to watch, and now we don't get that.

Yeah, and especially coming off the Christmas night game, which was one of his opus's.

Good Lord.

Just an all-timer. Here's with Phoenix. Listen, they've been a great story. They've certainly surprised me. I thought that their over-under was 31. I thought they'd go under. Their schedule is about to ramp up. They really haven't had to go to the East, I don't think at all. I'm not even positive they played an Eastern Conference team on the road yet. We'll see in January when they get through. They have Miami, Detroit, New York, Brooklyn, Philly, Atlanta all in a row in mid-January. They basically play all of the good East teams in January. We'll have, I think a little bit better feel. Anyway, the Spurs being able to potentially lock down a two seed. I thought they were going to be good. I did not have that one on my bingo card. Quick other stuff before we get to the mailbag. Kawhi, since I disparaged the Clippers last week and said they were beyond hope, there was no fix. Kawhi was like, Actually, there's one fix. What if I turned into Kawhi Leonard again? Was not expecting that. I don't know if you saw any of what he did to Detroit on Saturday, but it was out of control.

And really made me rethink Detroit, which I want to get to in a second. I'm going to take this game to game. I'm not going to say we've turned the corner with the Clippers, but they are like 100 to one to win the division. I don't think it could be rolled out. They're like 10 games back, That division is so wonky. I don't trust a single team in that division. I was like, All right, what if Kawhi just is healthy the rest of the year? Maybe. But I would bet against the opposite. What do you think?

Yeah, I take your point. I mean, betting the Clippers to one to win anything is some real sicko shit, and I salute you for it. But look, it's been nice for just to have a pulse for that team. If it has to be Kawhi defibrillating 55 points into them in order to get the team breathing again, so be it. That's wonderful. I'm with you that that's not exactly the thing that can be easily just repeated over and over and over. The good news is, they're on a nice little winning streak right now, and he's doing that sometimes, but they're also still missing guys. They've still been shorthanded, and they're figuring it out in ways that they just weren't a month ago. I will take any version of the Clippers that feels mildly competitive after the completely lethargic start of the season they've had.

Yeah, it looked like they had completely quit on themselves, on Tylu, on everything, and now On each other.

They look like they were just having a miserable time out there together, and that seems to be changing, if nothing else.

The other thing that happened, it's a small, but, Brook Lopez just looking like an NBA player again. He was completely washed, and now all of a sudden has unwashed himself. Worst case scenario is at least a trade asset to them. There's some moves they can make, too. There's contracts they could patch together if they wanted to go get somebody.

We might need the unwashed All-Stars, the unwashed Mount Rushmore. How do you turn back that particular hands those particular hands on the clock? I don't know.

Al Horford is trying to play his way into the list right now, and it's like, We don't admit your application date. Lopez is the best example this year on that. All right, next quick thing. Cleveland And another team that just seemed like they had no outs, no answers, and no fixes. The only fix was, Well, what if everyone's just healthy? We just got to see everybody playing together. What would that look like? And they're not even 100% healthy yet, but they had their four guys against the Spurs, and they had a really nice win. And it actually looked like the Cavs again. So I'm just marking that.

This might be my greater skepticism. Everything else we've talked about, it's like, okay, I can see the Clippers. A win over the Spurs is a huge for any team at this point, which is really a testament to San Antonio. It's just been so bleak, such a drag in Cleveland all season. And you're right that they haven't been healthy, and getting guys back will, of course, help them naturally. But I don't know. I think there just might be something a little busted there that's never going to be quite right again. The sooner maybe we acknowledge and accept that, the better.

I was 97% there with you on that. I'm probably still in the '90s. I thought it was It's a good sign they played well against the Spurs because that's the team that four weeks ago would have killed them. I'm just monitoring it. Next one, LeBron, the All-Star voting came out. Lebron was seventh. I was trying to figure out, is the League trying to rig this so he's not in the top five so they can officially move into a new generation? Or will the league now have to rig this to make sure he's in the top five because they don't want to have a game without LeBron in the All-Star game because he's not going to get in as a reserve? What would be your bet? If you had... Those are your two options.

Those are the two options. Is it rigged or is it rigged?

The league's secretly excited this can happen and they can move some new people into the limelight, or the league is like, Holy shit, we can't have the All-Star Game without LeBron. We got to fix this.

From a league standpoint, an All-Star Game with LeBron is better than not. It's not really that important for the NBA as a league body to have the most representative sample.

No one hates the game, I guess, is the most important thing.

So at least have LeBron James in it, the spotlight on him at all times. I think that would be a net positive. So if there is tampering afoot, if there is some funny business happening, I would think it would be putting the thumb on the scale as far as getting LeBron into the game.

Mike Baskin has sent me an email now. Did you think it was weird- Hey, Bill, I think you were kidding, but just wanted to make sure we don't tamper with the All-Star ballots.

Tell that to Zaza Pachulia, okay? We've all been We've been seeing this happen in real-time. I did think it was interesting, not funny business, but just interesting that Shay, who is maybe this... Not maybe. Consensus top two player in the world, fourth in the Western conference in All-Star Balleting, and feeds into the larger conversation we are having, have been having about Thunder dominance, about the appeal of that team, about Shay as a star, and what he can be in terms of a face of the league or a representative of the league. I I love Shay. The idea that you would vote for anyone over him this season feels dicey, but I guess if you're going to vote anyone, it would be Stefan Luca, so maybe it's not so crazy.

Yeah, Stefan Luca seem just penciled in by casuals and everyone else. Shay should be penciled in, small market. Joket should be penciled in, but maybe people are a little tired of him. Then Wemby is the oddity. It would just seem like those would be the five guys if you're just doing a ballot. All right, last thing really quick. Pistons. I've been watching them lately, trying to study them and see what they're missing. Getting a little competitive with the Celtics in the East, too, like with the Jason Tate come back, who we might be going against. To me, we're talking about all these different trades with teams. This is clearly the team where there's one easy fix for them that would make them go up a level. You felt it in that Quippers game. They had nobody who could guard Kawhi. It's really like, all right, I guess Ron Holland, I know you're only 20, but You might be our last hope here. It's the same thing when the Celtics played them, when Jalen Brown was somebody that gave them a lot of trouble, too. Sure. These bigger physical forwards, I just don't think they have matchups for.

They're playing Tobias Harris, 28. 4 minutes a game. Javante Green, 18. 3, and Holland, 20. 8. Those three guys, 33%, 34%, 24% from three. So 70% missing, basically. Their 27th made three, is 24th in percentage. There's just a Michael Porter Jr. Thing looming here now for me when I think, What do they need? Will they need a bigger physical forward who can also take some pressure off Kade? Because when you watch them, it's all K at every point. He's the only... So it's Well, what if you just replace Tobias Harris with whatever this version of Michael Porter Jr. Is? Are they a better team? Also, he's been in big games. My answer would be yes. I just thought there's something there. Do you see it?

I I mean, they're definitely a better team with Michael Porter Jr. I just want to stop down hard right now. If the problem is that they don't have someone to guard Kawhi Leonard and Jalen Brown, the answer is not Michael Porter Jr.

Well, but this is the problem, though. I don't think the guy exists to trade for him. No. I went through all the things and it's like, all right, who's the stopper, the veteran? That guy's not in the league unless they wanted to roll the dice with Jaymunt Green.

I'm also less concerned about that particular stopper because I do think against most people, the combination of Asar and Ron Holland can fake it. I want the shooting more. I want the stretch more. I want the dynamism if it's Lowry Markinen or if it's in Michael Porter Jr's case, someone who can plausibly guard not even bigger wings so much, but has power forward size and when at his most motivated can be a factor on the glass, can be a factor as a second rotation guy defensively, all that stuff is really important and just gives you wrinkles beyond what you would ever get from Tobias Harris. And so it's like the more you can expand on that role versus a guy who stands in the corner and spaces things for you, but even then not really, the better off they're going to be. It's just a matter of how aggressive that Detroit wants to be this season. And the more that they get pressure from teams like the Knicks, I think the more inclined they're going to be to make a move this season.

Yeah. Right now, they're in no man's land in that position because they're not getting enough offense from it, but they also can't stop the other wings. So either they have to trade for somebody who can stop the wings, but I don't think that person exists, or you try to upgrade the offense. I did come up with a fake trade, and this ties into the mailbag. A guy named Jake Cawley wrote in, I had a dream that my pistons traded Jade and Ivory to the Timberwolves for Dante DiFincenzo. I view this move akin to the Gitty for Caruso Trade, and made a whole case for it. I was like, Oh, that's a fun trade. Well, you could even take it a step further and give the Wolves, get Ivy, Detroit gets MPJ and DiFincenzo, and Brooklyn gets Harris's expiring and Rob Dillingham and a bunch of It would have to be a bunch at this point. Maybe two first. Yeah, like two first?

I don't know. Mpj has been really good. I think to the larger point of this conversation, he's the player who is useful to a pretty wide variety of teams. Golden State, too. Absolutely. You could see a bunch of contenders thinking they are a Michael Porter Jr. Away or would be contenders thinking they're a Michael Porter Jr. Away. I would think the market on him could get pretty interesting if Brooklyn wants it to be.

Yeah, and they should want it to be because he's playing a little too well for them. They're a little too frisky. It's amazing though. I thought he was, and I said this, I hated the trade when they did it. I thought he was a negative trade asset last year because of the contract and his health. Just didn't trust it. But he's morphed into this different person. And now it's like he's got this year, expiring contract next year. He's playing great. 40 million is tradable in this new apert era. You can patch some stuff together.

Crazy to think about, but true.

All right, we'll take a quick break, and then we're going to do the mailback. Hey, in case you didn't hear, the video from this podcast will still be on Spotify in 2026. We love having video podcasts on Spotify, but we were also running video on YouTube, and that is going to change starting on January 11th for this podcast because we They're moving the video from YouTube to Netflix. So starting January 11th, Sunday night, right after the three NFL games, that third playoff game is going to end on Sunday night. Cousin Sal and I will be going live. It will be on Netflix, and you will be able to watch it as a video podcast on Spotify. We have a bunch of sports podcasts going that week, and then a bunch of other podcasts going at the end of the month, including the rewatchables, which will be on Netflix by the end of January. We're going to try to time it to a lot of the movies that they have on Netflix. You can watch the movie on Netflix, then watch the Rewatchables episode about it. So stay tuned. Netflix, January 11th. This podcast, the video, will be there live.

All right, Rob, NBA Mailback. Got some good questions. These are more on the serious side. I only have a couple of walking ones for you. These are more just pure basketball stuff. This first one is from Jody Zink, who listened to Legs and I discussing the most improved player award and what the purpose of that is. He said, My suggestion, what if we made it the breakthrough award for best performance by a player who averaged less than 15 minutes per game the previous season? My counter to that is, why can't we have both? Because the breakthrough award is basically, though, where the did you come from guy. Yes. Most improved, I think, is different. Where I think that's Michael Porter Jr, Jalen Duren. It's guys like that who are at one level, and then they showed up the next season and were just at a completely different level. It's like, whoa. Whereas, I don't know, is A. J. Mitchell most improved? He didn't play last year. No.

But see, I would say maybe Michael Porter Jr is not most improved.

I'm just saying guys like that. I see what's your point, though? He just got more shots, more minutes.

He's weirdly enough for a guy who's already been a champion and been around for a while on his own A. J. Mitchell trajectory. It's just in a spot with a role, with the usage he's never quite had before, and he's making the most of it.

So is Durin more of your type for that award? What do you go for? What's your fancy for the most improved?

I go back and forth because there's so many things that are weirdly off limits. It's like we can't pick players who were drafted too high because they're supposed to be good. We can't pick guys who are just progressing along naturally because that's assumed. And so we end up just giving it to who's scoring more points this year.

You give it to Jalen Johnson. It's like, Oh, he's five points higher. He's averaging a 25, 10, and 9. It's his.

I would say the argument for someone like Jalen Johnson is he's doing things that go above and beyond that expectation. The jump he's made as a playmaker, the jump he's made tying the team together, albeit a pretty broken team at the moment. But the role he's filled for them, I wasn't sure he was ever going to get to that level. That's been an exciting turn. I like the idea of splitting the award, though. The NBA used to have comeback players, so why can't we just have breakthrough player instead?

I like more awards while also simultaneously getting rid of the clutch player award, which is the dumbest award anyone's created in this sport. Breakthrough this year, Nemeas Kata, Reid Sheppard, Cam Spencer, and AJ Mitchell, all guys who did not play 15 minutes a game last year, and we're actually under 10. And this year have jumped up. Kata is playing 25 minutes a game. He's 10 and 8. He's got a 20 PR. Sheppard is 25 minutes a game. He's been huge for Houston. Cam Spencer has been a revelation. He's shooting almost 50% from three. Then A. J. Mitchell. There should be an award for the Where the fuck did you come from, guys. Yes.

Can I raise you Colin Gillespie in that mix?

Colin Gillespie could absolutely be raised in that mix. I apologize to Colin for leaving him out. I'm sorry. I created another award, too, while we're here. Please. The Powerball Ticket Award for the non-lottery pick rookie who looks like he's been an awesome steal. I like awards. As you know, I love all NBA. I love all this stuff. I really cherish my vote because it's a snapshot of everything that happened in the season. When we're looking back 30 years later, I want this snapshot to be accurate. One thing that would be cool is when Desmond Bain is the 30th pick and is just awesome right away, and it's like, whoa, they really struck oil with this. The Powerball Ticket Award, Hugo González with just a massive lead right now. I don't even think, was he 31st or 30th? I can't even remember if he was end of the first round or what. But out of all the non-Lottery guys, he's the one that if there was a redraft, I just feel like he'd be a top 10 pick. I don't know. Is there anybody else you'd have outside the lottery? You like the Powerball ticket. I can tell.

I mean, look, you're speaking my language. My only argument is, don't we give this award multiple times every week on the podcast that we create. Isn't this what we do? Is just honor these guys constantly all the time?

Podcast Content Award? Yeah, maybe.

Ugo is definitely a great pick. I'm trying to think if there's anyone else even in the running this year. Ryan Calkbrenner has definitely had his moments.

Calkbrenner is in there.

He's fated a little bit, honestly, as far as his contention for this hypothetical award. Will Richard in Another World might have been in contention, but also has fated. I think it might be Ugo's to lose at this point.

Ugo is minus 6: 50 on Fandil. Last award I would have is the... And I don't know who to name this award after, so maybe you'll have to help me. We're Sorry We Mocked Your Seemingly Horrific Trade, Our Bad Award. And the nomination would be Brooklyn Trade for Michael Porter Jr. The Getty Caruso Trade, I think there was a lot of people with Chicago like, What are you doing? Maybe the Derrick Queen trade. He's tailed off a little lately. That still could end up being a top three pick.

I don't think anyone was really bagging on him so much as just the parameters of the deal.

And then finishing last in the vote in the Luca trade. I think that's the last one in this.

Yes. Okay, that's fair.

Because we're still locking it.

As we should be.

But I think the Porter Jr. Trade is the leader in the clubhouse. I don't know what GM we named that after, a GM that did something nuts, and then all of a sudden it wasn't nuts a couple of years later.

Accidentially struck some gold. Or I mean, honestly, in fairness to them- Or intentionally struck gold.

Yes.

I mean, that's turned out to be quite a nice deal for Brooklyn, honestly, not just with the way Porter has played, but with the pick that they're getting in exchange. Kam Johnson has been good, but hasn't exactly blown the doors off when he's been healthy in Denver so far. I think it's worked out pretty nicely for the Nets, all things considered.

Is it weird that I still hate the trade, even though it's been a good trade? I still just completely disagree with the logic behind it. I still feel like K. M. Johnson was worth first rounders on himself, and I feel like Denver would have traded Michael Porter Jr's contract and attached a first rounder to get rid of it for the flexibility. I still don't think they got enough, but it turned out to be a great trade.

There is a nobility in you being the person holding on to the pipe under the bridge as the tornado comes through and twisters, just holding on. Please continue to Hold on, Bill. I still feel like...

All right, next one's from gray Zable in Denver. You keep missing the actual most appalling part of the Luka trade. The Mavericks, all caps, gave up a second round pick in the deal. Polinka had the balls to say, Actually, this isn't a fair deal. We're going to need more. And Nico thought that made sense. It's a great point.

It's a great point.

How did he get a second round pick on top of everything else?

How does that conversation even start? Because it can't be that. It can't be Polinka coming up and being like, Okay, we really got to even this out for both sides. I would think it had to have started from some other hybrid He wanted a first, and they were like, All right, we'll settle for a second.

He's trying to jedi mind trick Nico into thinking, I still don't feel like I'm getting enough back.

Honestly, good negotiating tactic if that's the case. It's unbelievable. I wouldn't be surprised if it was some other deal that Frankensteined its way into this deal. And so they're like, Okay, let's just copy paste these terms that include a second round pick, and maybe no one will notice.

I wrote down, It's the fuck you, touched down at the end of the 50 to three blowout when you're just They're supposed to be running the ball and kneeling, and they're like, Fuck it. Let's throw another 50-yard bomb here. Give us a second round pick, too. Nico's like, Fine.

Just wait until that second rounder wins the Powerball award. Then they can really take their victory lap on it.

If you gave him a true serum right now, does he feel like he's still in it with this Luka trade? With the way Luka has looked on defense lately? Do you think after three drinks over the holidays with his friends, he's like, You'll see with Luka, he's never going to win a title I'm sure he goes into that mode, right?

First of all, I don't think it takes the three drinks. I think he just- You think he goes right away. I think, look, you wouldn't have done it in the first place if you didn't believe it. I would like to think that Nico Harrison is out there with a Bill Simmons level of confidence in the Michael Porter trade being bad about his own resolution for the Luka trade.

Yeah. The part that really falls apart for him is the Anthony Davis piece, where he was like, We needed somebody more reliable from a conditioning and health standpoint. I present to you Anthony Davis. That's the part that I can't believe nobody was in the room like, All right, I get all the logic with the Luka side, but... All right, next one. Do you have one more point on that? I was going to say just the fact that the way that set up now every, for example, Anthony Davis groin injury just feels like such an indictment on the process, on every step that led to this.

We should be over I can't be over it. It's a ridiculous trade. It will always be a ridiculous trade.

This is a long one from Mike from Williamsburg, which I assume is Brooklyn. Simmons. I like when the people, they start the email with the Simmons.

How do you like to be addressed? Is Simmons your preferred?

It's a last name. I mean, you don't even need to mention my name. You're sending an email to me, but he gave me the Simmons comma. You love the overrated, underrated, properly rated gimmick dating back to pre-grantland before your stubborn fingers stopped working. Another instance. So we went from Simmons, and then we had the stubborn fingers. I think the overreaction, underreaction, proper reaction gimmick works just as good. I present the 2025, '26 Spurs as an example. So timely email here. Okay. San Antonio beat the champs three times in two weeks. I get it. It was impressive. First game, OKC shot 24% from three in the NBA Cup semis and lost by two. It happens. It is true. Okay, so you couldn't make a shot. Yes. Second game, Spurs rolled by 20 at home, good win, and they kicked S. Way to go. You have Wemby and two other top three lottery picks, plus you got Fox for free. Weird dig at the Spurs there. I don't know. All they did was win by 20. Christmas Day, okay, so he goes 11 for 44 from three and loses by 15. I hope you watch this game because every OKC three was wide open.

In two of those three losses, OKC couldn't hit any threes. Now he brings in the media. But if you follow the media, the champions who have just won 108 of 130 games heading into mid-December now need to pray that they don't see the spurs in the 2026 playoffs. I am going with overreaction, which he wrote in all caps. That was from Mike from Williamsburg.

Was that scrawled on a paper? Was that sent in with clippings of a magazine?

It was like in Times, New Roman, 10-point font.

That was real wingdings vibes, to be honest with you.

All right, let's talk this out because I did feel like there was a slight overreaction. But I also felt like something meaningful happened.

Because when O KC- Both of those things could be true.

If O KC is just going to make 24% of their threes, I think there's probably eight teams that could beat them night to night. If they're just going to shoot like shit. You already talked about this game on your part. I have not talked about the game. The things I noticed, which other people have mentioned, was the multiple guards at once. Just good ball handling. Seems like the right kryptonite for Dorent and Caruso, where it's like, you can do that crazy defense thing on us, but not really this time because we have three guys who can handle the ball or two at all times. It's what Indiana did last year, and their guys are better than Indiana's guys. Right? Yeah. Does that make sense? I think what was interesting about it is it flipped the Dora Caruso thing against OKC because if their defense isn't going to matter now, it's like they have to make shots they didn't. Yes. The next thing was a bigger thing to me and really jumped out because I watched those last two games. The Wemby in the paint against SGA's mid-range, I think, is a real thing. Did you notice that?

Absolutely. Okay. That felt like a real, how do you stop SGA, the most efficient mid-range guy we've had in a long time? What would be the best way to stop him? What if we had a 7'7 guy with his hand up all the time? Yeah.

Well, especially, Shay is so good at all of the various step-throughs and step-backs. His footwork is impeccable. He's so good at drawing fouls. If you can even take away that fraction of a second when he does get open by making him think that Wemby could get there, I think that changes a lot of OKC's offense.

Yeah, it felt like it tilted it just enough that they felt uncomfortable, which I thought you could feel.

That is the difference. And that, to me, is why it's not so much of an overreaction. The Thunder shouldn't really be afraid of anybody at this point. They still are the Championship favorites. They're still the best team in the league. I don't think anyone should budge on that opinion. But the Spurs showed, if you are going to beat them, what it takes. And it takes making them uncomfortable by tilting them off balance in exactly that way. And in particular, you alluded to the way those factors influence each other. If you aren't forcing turnovers, if you're the Thunder, Then all of a sudden, those Caruso shots, those Dore shots, they really, really have to hit. And same thing with your offense. If the balance of your offense is always a little backfooted or a little reliant on three positions in a row being swung to the weak side corner and Alex Caruso, breaking all of them, Then all of a sudden, you have a little bit of a crisis of confidence. Then all of a sudden, you're out of your flow. You're second-guessing things. You're not playing dominant, dynastic Oklahoma City Thunder basketball. That is what it takes.

The Spurs, like it or not, seem to be one of the very few teams in the league capable of even nudging the fund or anything remotely close to that point.

The Dork Caruso thing is the thing I would be worried about if I was OKC because that whole team shot Threes a little bit better last year, but I actually like the shots they got on the Christmas Day game. They're good. They were wide open. Sj was definitely more effective, but they were getting wide open threes everywhere, and they just weren't going in. It made me wonder, do you overreact to this or not before the trade deadline where you have Dork Caruso and Wallace, and none of those guys are knocked down. I totally trust these guys, wild card scoring thing. Or do they need to play A. J. Mitchell more? Is there some offensive wrinkle they would have to fix that?

Well, A. J. Missed those second two games. So he missed the game on the 23rd.

I'm saying would they see them in a series, would he play more over one of those guys?

I think it's a huge variable because that is the exact person you would go to if Caruso or Dora or whoever in the case of Wallace, whoever you want to point to on the wing, isn't fulfilling their offensive duties and you need a little bit more juice in the second-side operation. You would pull the lever and put A. J. Mitchell into the game, and he would give you a lot of those exact things without giving up a ton defensive. He's a good defender in his own right. So that is the role player they would have off the bench that I think could change those games.

Yeah. Presty has always been careful with trades during this season, and I don't think he would do a trade. I do think if Murphy became available in the Pelican, that's guy that they would have to really think about with all the assets they have, the tradable contracts they have. You think about like, All right, we're going against the Spurs. We're in a series now. We're down 3-2 in San Antonio in game 6, and I need somebody who can get a fucking shot. Do I trust these guys I have. What was interesting about the three games, and why I don't think it was an overreaction, is it was the first time you started looking at OKC who seemed like this potential dynasty going, How could this go wrong? I hadn't thought about that for a while. The other things that jumped out to me, Wemby off the bench, which won't be replicable in the playoffs because he'd be starting. But Wemby off the bench was such a massive fucking monkey wrench. You're hanging with your team with the starters, then it's like, Now we're going to bring in Wemby. Look, I was there. You probably don't remember the '86 Rockets Lakers series.

You know what?

Somehow I don't. Yeah, somehow you missed that one. Are you over 40 yet?

Not over 40 yet.

Yeah, so that happened before you were born. So you missed that one. Rockets This Lakers was the all-time kryptonite series in NBA history, where the Lakers had won in '85, they'd won in '82, they'd won in '80. They were kicking ass in '86. They were still doing their Showtime Lakers stuff. And then they just go against this fluke Rockets team, and they got their ass kicked. Kareen all of a sudden looked like he was a million years old. I wrote about it in my book. Samson and Lajuan, they just ran them over. And it was like, if they had played 20 times, I think the Rockets would have beaten them 18. It was this real moment where they had to go out get Michael Thompson next year. It was just a bad matchup. I'm not ready to go there with this yet, but I did think of it. I did think of like, Oh, shit, could this just be the wrong team?

I think what it introduced is not that the Spurs are that yet, but that they could be that. That over the next two or three years, when we're all assuming the Thunder are going to be in contention because they're so loaded, what if they do have just the perfect foil sitting right there with a generational player, plus all this depth, plus two all-star level guards, I guess three all level guards. That could be the exact design you need. That would be an incredible turn of events, I think, for all of us, just in terms of watching what the next 5-10 years of basketball look like.

The Wemby-Simson parallels are there. Samson was Wemby before Wemby. If you go back and watch him on YouTube. I was showing my son, I was like, Watch Samson. He's very Wemby-ish. Wemby was taller, but they were doing a lot of this same stuff. All right, next question. This is from Brad Atkins, one of my favorite showrunners. Six seasons into his career, what's the most important game LaMelo Ball has played in the NBA? Not how he performed, but how important the game was going into it. I got this email and I tried to think of it, and I couldn't think of it. I had to look it up. But off the top of your head, do you know?

It would have to be one of the play-in games, I would guess, that Charlotte got absolutely smoked by, I want to say, the Pacers both times somehow.

Your brain's working better than mine. Yeah, he was in two play-in games, neither of I remembered. They lost in 2021 to the... They were on 30 and 39 Hornets, made the play-in, and lost to Indianapolis, 144 to 117. Lamelo was 4 for 14, and he was a minus 35. Then the year later, they played another playing game for the 43 and 39 Hornets. I somehow forgot that they had a winning record that year. They lost Atlanta by 29. Lamelo was 7 for 25, and he was a minus 13. Tough. I'm going to say those are his two biggest games so far.

As a LaMelo ball apologist, I have no defense. He has simply dug his grave to this point. It is his fault, both by his play, but I think more importantly, just his inability to stay healthy to this point in his career for the most part. That has really doomed him on both fronts as far as playing actual meaningful games.

It's a weird one for NBA teams. I think they're in this position with him. Atlanta is in it with Trey. New Orleans is in it with Zion. And probably Memphis is in it with Ja, too, which is why those four guys have been mentioned a lot of times. But how long do you stick with this asset as it's declining? Because I think you could argue Atlanta now has stuck with Trey for too long, and I don't think he has trade value anymore. I just don't. I think you're basically looking at Vivek. You're going around the league and you just keep coming back to Vivek and be like, Man, maybe he'll do it. But other than that, I think he's been in the league too long. I think we know what That's such a weird collection of potential home run swings, too, because they all have something to recommend about them.

Lamelo, not just the vision and the creativity, but remains one of the preeminent draws in the league, one of the very few players who will actually get people, and not just people, but young people watching NBA basketball. That is a huge and powerful thing, especially for a small market franchise. I would guess is a huge reason why a team like Charlotte would be so loathing to give him up.

They're better off keeping him.

If it does work, it will work in a way that will be more important than even a better player, but who's less of a draw would be. Then Ja has some of that, too, but has just about the biggest question marks in terms of conduct and decision making off the court and on the court in the league, to say nothing of the fact of the way his game is deteriorating. Trey is probably the most accomplished of those players from a postseason standpoint. No question. And yet people seem to really dislike playing with him a lot of the time. And just the reviews are not glowing as far as the Trey Young experience as a coworker. And Zion, I just... Has been awesome when he's on the floor. Usually, I just have zero faith that he's ever going to be a high leverage star, basically ever again. And I would love for that not to be the case, but I don't really see a reason to believe it.

So if you had to rank those four for who you would be the most afraid to trade for, I'd actually have Ja first because the combo of the off the field decision making, but also just physically, he doesn't seem the same. And I don't think he's as explosive and reckless as he was a couple of years ago. If he's not as reckless, I don't really know what's left.

It's Ja or Zion for sure. I think Trey and LaMelo, for all of their faults, are in a slightly different category of challenging in their various ways You want to build around them and see them grow, but they're just not bringing the baggage to the table that Ja is.

I'm still in on Zion.

I would still- Based on what?

I'm trying to think what actor or actress Zion is like. Where you're like, Oh, maybe this will be the one for them. Sydney Sweeni. It's just nice. No, but she's been in a couple of things. It's true. She was in White Lotus. She was in- That was like Zia.

She was like Zia. She was like Zia. She was like 13 good games of a season when he's healthy. They all have their moments.

Sydney Sweeni is pretty good. Trey, I still feel like we've at least seen him succeed, which is more than two of those guys can say. All right, so long email about tanking from Christie that I'll try to cut through, but he basically says, The true drivers of tanking are general managers and owners, and they do it for different self-interested reasons. Gms tank to save their jobs and basically prolong the illusion of hope, which Sean Marks has been the best at. Keep my job. Three years from now, we're going to have all this stuff, and you just hope people buy it. Then he said, Owners tank to save money, which I don't 100% agree with. But he said, Losing becomes profitable, especially with revenue sharing. He did write, The NBA is a cartel with guaranteed asset appreciation. Yikes. But he suggested, If the NBA wants to eliminate tanking, what if we had an eight-year ownership rule? If an owner's team fails to finish in the top six in its conference, even once over an eight-year period, that owner should be required to immediately sell. Eight years seems low, but I was trying to think, what's the right...

Basically, we call this the Vivek rule, right? But he did make the playoffs two years ago. Eight years seems like Maybe it's the right number. If your team can't make the top six for eight years, maybe you should be required to sell. Now, there's probably all these legalities why you can't force an owner to sell, but I didn't mind the rule.

I mean, it's encouraging regular season competitiveness, which we're all for. But does it matter if they're just doing it one time every eight years? If they just take the majority of it and then spend on a bunch of veterans for a one last ride just so they don't have to sell their team, is that worth it for anybody? Frankly, say you are a fan of one of these long suffering franchises. Say you've been waiting for the Utah Jazz to turn the corner, and they have refused to, in part because they have mistimed their trades or held on to Lowry or whatever you think the sins of the Jazz are. If you've been waiting all this time and then they just go trade for a bunch of Tobias Harris's, does that make you feel happy? Does that help anybody if they just have one season where they win 42 games?

You're the Stan Van Gunde mid-2010s Pistons. You're like, Oh, we made round one.

I think there is a lot of of good reason and dignity and competitive basketball to be played in the middle of these conferences. I'm not trying to pooh-pooh being fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh in a really competitive conference. I'm saying when you go all out and that's all you can do, that's when it gets really bad. If we're building something stably in the middle here and we're waiting for our Pascal Siakam to show up, for example, and then all of a sudden we're the Eastern Conference champion, Indiana Pacers, that's very different than one of these teams just trying to out to satisfy an arbitrary rule. The reason I am cautious about this is because we're seeing the 65 game rule for superstars just feel so meaningless. Why would that be the benchmark? And the fact that Nicole Jokic is going to be out for a couple of weeks and might be an eligible that Victor Webinyama might not be the defensive player of the year, even though we all know he's the defensive player of the year. The fewer arbitrary rules, the better, I think, in terms of those kinds of cut offs.

Yeah, I almost feel like we could go back to the 55, but you can They only have 10 things where you miss one game and that's it, where you're basically just resting or skipping. But I don't even know how they litigate that.

You want a doctor's note. Excused absences only.

Yeah, excused absences. That sounds great. Here's my tanking thing, and I've mentioned this before, I think even going back to Greenland. I don't know whether it's top three, top four, or top five, but I just think they should have a rule where you can't be in top three, top four, top five, two years in a row. Even Even if it was top five, here's the things that need to stop. There's really only three things that were bad because people talk about tanking, it's ruining everything. It's really only ruined it three times. The process in Philly was outrageous. They picked third, third, first, and first, or they ended up with those picks for four straight years. That should never happen. I think we should all agree that that was a complete disgrace. Let's never have that again. San Antonio had Wemby. They got Castle number 4, and they got Harper number 2. I'm not sure that should happen either. So even if you had the top four lottery pick rule, they win with Wemby, they get the fourth pick, but now it goes back to five because you're not allowed to have a top four pick two years in a row.

Now you don't get Castle. That changes them a little bit. And then Houston goes 2, 3, 4, 3, 4 straight years. And it's just ironic that Houston and San Antonio, or two of the three teams you'd want to be now, but they threw away multiple seasons to do it. It's true. Okay, see, tried for two years. It worked out once with Chet, didn't work out as well the year before when they got Gitty. But that seems like an okay fix. Are you okay with that? I'm okay. You can't be in the top four two years in a row.

I am okay with it, but the sound you just heard is every small market GM calling us frantically, trying to get this rule banned from all possible existence. Because if your argument is the only way your team can get better through the draft, then you want the dedicated, consolidated 2-3 year window to make that happen. I wonder if we did have a rule like this, would the penalty for it just be the tanking team just end up tanking for seven straight years because they need the every other year cadence in order to make it possible to get a couple of top five picks together?

I mean, we've already benefited the small market teams a lot with some of this aprons stuff.

Not untrue.

I think they've been really helped Let's take one more break, then we'll finish the middleback. We don't just have readers in America, Rob. We go as far as Singapore, with Tony. If the Lakers offer Austin Reeves plus every pick they can legally come up with, how many imaginary bonus picks would they need to even get the bucks to stop laughing in a Yannis trade call? Would they have to have time travel pics? He just keeps going. I looked at this because nobody There's a really interesting thing that's happened with Yannis that I have not mentioned on our podcast, and I don't want to throw this at you. Because on the one hand, you would think he's one of the best trade value guys we have. On the other hand, he's been basically available for the last two months, and we've seen multiple contenders be like, We're good. We don't want him. I was trying to think when KG became available in '07, and he's right around the same age, miles in his career that Yannis is. He might even two years older. Everybody wanted KG. It was like, You add KG, and this is the perfect guy to have on your team.

He fits with everything. He doesn't need a lot of shots. He's a culture guy. He makes you better. Everybody wanted him. If the Spurs had made Duncan available at any point from '08 to '13. I just feel like maybe '13 is too late. Maybe let's say '08 to 2010. They're like, You know what? We've won enough titles with Tim Duncan. He's now available. I think everybody would have lost their minds, people would be like, We're getting Tim Duncan. We were winning titles with him. There's something about Yannis that I think holds people off because there's a perception that if you bring Yannis and you have to fit the team around him, he's not a fit into the team guy, which I haven't really heard discussed. Do you see it that way?

I think there is some of that. It's not even that he doesn't fit into the team. It's he wants to play a pretty specific way.

That's what I mean. Yes.

Whatever you may say about Kevin Garnett, I think you're right that competitive, but also the mid-range dumper was there, the facilitation was there. There was really no question that he would find a way to fit into most offensive systems with most offensive stars. Giannis, we've seen, we saw with Dame, it's not always quite that easy, even when we think it will be, even when it seems like these pieces should fit together like Dame and Giannis would or like Luca and Yannis might, there's a little bit of hesitation because he is a guy who wants the ball in his hands. He wants to be the creative superstar. If you don't have the pieces to make that work, then I think you have to- Then why would you trade for him? Exactly. What are the teams that are close enough to think that they should trade for him, but not so committed already that they would have to tear down or compromise part of who they are already in order to accommodate everything that he wants to do?

Which makes him just a fascinating trade asset because I think he's one of the best 20 players of all time. I can't remember where I have him on my list, but I have him somewhere between 15 and 17. He clearly is. He's 30 and 12 every year. The stuff he's done is all time. All-time stuff. He's one of the generational superstars of this century. And yet I think a team like San Antonio would look at it and be like, Yeah, he might screw us up. We have a good thing with all these guards. We have Wemby. He doesn't really make sense with Wemby. Whereas if you had somebody like KG and it's like, We could turn Keldon Johnson and some pics and Luke Cornet and the KG, of course we're doing that. We could fit him right in. Sure. I just think it's more like how unique Yannis is as a player and how much the team needs to revolve around the stuff he's good at. That brings me to the Lakers. I think him and Luka are a weird fit. I'm not sure I like it. Because Look, they could trade Reeves and LeBron, assuming LeBron would sign off for Giannis and Kuzma, and Milwaukee is like, We'll do that.

We'll buy out LeBron. Give us all your picks. Sure. Lebron will get to go somewhere else. There's a world where that's a conceivable I don't think it would happen. But then I have my future as Luca and Giannis, which on paper, of course, you're doing it. If I'm playing a video game, I'm doing it. But in real life, is that a weird team?

So the guy you want with Luca is somebody who's really comfortable screening and re-screening with the patience to play in space when they catch in the middle, who can either give him the option as a pop player to attack the basket or be such a dedicated force on the role that you have to pay attention to him at all.

It was like Davis five years ago.

Davis five years ago or Giannis earlier in his career, frankly, or Giannis even at times during the Bucks Championship run. He tilted in that direction enough for that team to show us that he can do it. Obviously, he's one of the best in the world at doing it when he wants to. The question is, how much does he really want to sign up for that? Because when you play with Luka, you're doing it all the time. Ask DeAndre and ask every big Luca has ever played with. That is the job, is how much do you want to be rolling to the rim even when you may never see the ball? And Yannis would be the world's most overqualified role, man, playing with Luka. That may come with a championship.

But then you want to do that.

It may come with incredible results, but it's not what top 20 players all time usually do.

Yeah, and same thing for Houston. Yeah, on paper, it would make sense to trade for Giannis and they have the right assets, but I'm not sure what you're compromising by doing that. It's just a weird one. That's why I still feel like a team like Atlanta made the most sense. There's another team I'll come up later in this. This question is a long one from Tom D. I'm going to try to skim through it, but I picked it just because I know you'll love it. He writes, On Amy Poher's podcast, great podcast, by the way, she called Julia Louis Dreyfus, the LeBron of television. Julia rejected this comparison. Then instead of listing other basketball comps like a normal Ringer employee, Amy just moved on. That is true. We would have just kept going and badgering Julia Louis Dreyfus on that one. But he writes, If you were going to make a JLD basketball comp, isn't it clearly Kobe? Seinfeld is the Shaq Kobe years. They're both all-time great number twos on an all-time great show team, but they're also beloved by a segment of the fans who claimed they were actually the star of the team.

New adventures of old Christine carried a mediocre supporting cast to mediocre results in individual glory. The 2006 Emmy is her 2006 scoring title. Interesting. Same year. Veep is the Gasol Odom Bynum Lakers. Two Lakers titles, three Emmys. Neither team or show was quite as good as the Shaq, Kobe Lakers, or Seinfeld, but HBO made it feel newer and fresher. Danny said, Whatever Apple show she's going to end up on soon will be the Steve Nash, Dwight Howard era. Her co-stars will probably be Sheldon from Bink Bang Theory and Sofia Vergara. Jesus Christ. He really went deep on this. He said, Bonus, her year on SNL is Kobe versus Jordan, the All-Star Game. He said her arrested bone, my guess for all, was the '08 Olympics. He's like, I'm staying away from Colorado. Good idea. I really like this. Jld is the Kobe of television with the multiple errors. You seem just confused.

I love the longevity argument. I love the parallels. It falls apart in one critical way, which is JLD is way better at what she does than Kobe ever was at what he does.

Right. She is in all- She is the Jordan or LeBron.

I mean, if you absolutely need to stretch it, I guess Kareem at three. But just really, I don't know that anyone has ever been a better TV comedian, either gender, any presentation. She's the greatest TV- Yeah, it's like her, Lucille Ball.

Comedy star of our time. Yes. Yeah, it's like her, you Lucille Ball in the final, too. What's interesting is, I think a lot of the Kobe fans would think that was totally justified that they were in the same swimming pool.

Well, I mean, that is life as a Kobe fan. That's what that particular standem describes to. The problem is I am a Julia Louis-Dreyfus super fan. I guess if I want to poke holes in one other aspect, if Seinfeld is the Kobe Shack Lakers, who is the Shaq? Who was the bigger star or the bigger presence on that show than her?

The reason I liked the Shaq Kobe was because Seinfeld was allegedly the Shaq. The show was named Seinfeld. He was the franchise guy, and they built show around him. He showed up in LA and was the free agent. Then he needed Kobe to actually win anything, which is the same thing with her role, with Elaine's role in that show, because I think Elaine is one of the great TV characters of all time. I don't know who George was. I don't know who George. George is basically like Robert Horry and Rick Fox and Derek Fisher.

He's the entire supporting cast.

Maybe him and Kramer or everybody. Then Phil Jackson's clearly Larry David.

Yes, that It makes sense.

I liked all the Kobe and her career, the way it moved. But it would be almost like if LeBron had Kobe's career. Yeah, because if you mapped- It would be where I've landed.

If you mapped her career onto LeBron's career.

Or Jordan had Kobe's career.

Oh, interesting. That might be it, honestly. If Kobe were actually Michael Jordan and not just wanting to be Michael Jordan.

If Jordan had all of Kobe's moves and the way the supporting cast moved around him, but it was Michael Jordan. Yeah. All right, I'm glad we talked this out. I have another TV. I had to get one I've got a weird one for you. It's funny because you didn't ever watch this show, but you'll have an opinion on the question. I can't wait. You didn't watch The Sopranos?

I've seen two episodes of The Sopranos.

Is Meadow's boyfriend catching Vita, blowing the security guard at the Esplanade construction site, the most holy shit moment in the history of television? A brief power rankings on the topic would be great. This is from P. J. Cantwell. So this got me thinking, what was my number one holy shit moment ever watching a I figured you could come up with three off top of your head. Here are my five. I'll go from five to one. Bernthal getting killed in Walking Dead, I still can't believe they did that. I felt like Bernthal was becoming a major star, and then he was just shot. I didn't know about the comic books.

Quick question, how do we want to handle spoilers with these potential reveals?

We're... Spoilers are... Yeah, come on.

Jump ahead if you don't want any great TV shows spoiled for you.

You should be watching these shows. Fair. Or you should have already watched them. Number four for me is Jack, We Have To Go Back and Lost.

I think that's a good one.

Number three before your time, but Kimberly pulling her wig off in Melrose Place, and it turned out she had a giant alien scar. It was all... Yeah, she came back. She died in a car accident, but then she came back. She seemed a little off. Then at the end of an episode, she went to go to the bathroom, was looking in the mirror, and then just pulled off this red wig and had this giant scar. It was like, Oh, my God, it's on. It was amazing. Number two, Omar dying on the wire. Number one, the red wedding on Game of Thrones. Got to be. Which I think that has to be number one, right?

I was worried you were going to leave it off the list because I know you're not a huge Thrones head. But that felt like, at least in terms of the last 20 years of TV or so, has to be it, I think.

Any others that you would have?

I feel like we hit the biggest possible ones. Does this example from the Sopranos actually stack up to this It was a key part of season five or six.

I can't remember. It was the key swing thing that determined six episodes.

Wow. I guess I got to get caught up.

It was more that one, unlike Red Wedding, which was massively consequential. This was more like a, Wait, what just happened? It was like one of those. The ending of the Sopranos, I think, was the more controversial. But everybody knew going into the ending of the Sopranos that something huge was going to happen. To me, it's more like, I can't believe they just did that. I can't believe that just happened.

That's where the red wedding has that DNA. I think a lot of TV has been chasing it ever since, to be honest with you, to pretty diminished results. We're so jaded to expecting those sorts of reveals now that I think it's really hard to actually pull the rug off people.

Mad Men, I was trying to think of the Mad Men ones, and the only one is when that guy got eaten up by the equipment in the office.

The riding lawnmower might be the only truly shocking moment in that exact way.

Then Breaking Bad had some good ones, but nothing like Red Wedding. I mean, they had some good, but you always were on your toes with Breaking Bad. It was never like, I have no idea what it's going to be. The Wire had multiple ones. Yes. Even Stinger actually dying was surprising. Also true.

For Breaking Bad, I wonder if it's something like the way Jane dies and Walt's being responsible for it, or just the seated poison reveal, slow burn over the season. There's a lot of stuff like that, but Breaking Bad loves showing you the clue and then playing it out over three years. Is it as shocking as even a guy getting his foot run over by a lawnmower? I would say not.

Red Wedding, clearly, number one.

Got to be it.

There's some Miami Vice stuff when Crocket got amnesia and went bad and he shot tubs, but they gave it away in the commercial, so I was expecting it. But Crocket shooting tubs was way up there. All right. Glad we talked about this. Mitch from Michigan says, he's been listening to the pod since 2018 and appreciates my knowledge of NBA history. Thanks, Mitch. My brother and I are Pistons fans. I told him that Andre Drummond was the worst multi-time All-Star in the 21st century. My brother pushed back with Roy Hibbert or Brad Miller. We need your take. Who's the least deserving multi-time All-Star in the 21st century? Just shots fired at everybody. So Drummond was a replacement selection in 2018, which I think that even makes it worse, right? Yeah.

Because you're electing him specifically for that spot. You're right about the shots fired. We're going to be unkind to all of these guys, but Andre Drummond even had his absolute best. Getting your All-Star birth off rebounding is a tough beat, I think, overall.

Couple of other colonies. Kharam Butler went, too, but I really like Kharam Butler, and he was 20 a game and tough juice, but I was surprised he had two. Vucevic had two. Zack Levine had two. I think this is the answer, and it was not mentioned in the question. I think it's Adruna Salgaskis.

You're throwing Z under the bus like this?

I am, and I love Z, and I thought he was a huge part of those later cap. But can I give you Can I have a resume, though?

Please.

2003, he averages 17 and 7. 5 rebounds on a 17-win Cavs team and makes 44% of his shots. 2005, They were 42 and 40, 17 and 8. 6, 47% field goal, 2. 1 blocks. We should say- The stats just aren't good.

The 47% numbers, he's shooting exclusively long twoos. It's not like he's getting easy stuff around the basket to pad the stats. He's just shooting mid-range jumpers at this point and also somehow managing to be effective. Granted, a different lead.

I love how you're thrown off by the Sogauskis. Well, I'm I love it.

I'm thinking about the grand tradition of guys who snuck into the All-Star team a couple of times. Again, in the spirit of throwing guys under the bus, Antoine Jamieson seems like a very nice human being. Antoine Jamieson is- Yeah, he did, too.

20,000 points, too.

I mean, and Zach Levine is going to be in this category. I'm sure we can have a fun conversation about him at some point. I just think there are other good candidates beyond the big Zs and the Brad Millers.

The reason I went with big Z is my answer was because I was trying to time it to that really weird time for talent, which was in the league from basically '03 to '06 because so many of the expensive guys flamed out. We missed a couple of draughts, but they were also demanding you pick the center every year. There was always two centers on each team, and we didn't have enough centers for a few years there. That's how Jamal McClora got in. The worst one of all time was, rest in peace, but Kevin Duckworth, two times in the '90s. Still trying to figure out how that happened.

Anyway. David Lee, two. Two-time All-Star David Lee.

He's fine. David Lee.

Very productive.

It's funny, though. I went back and looked at his stats, and they were legitimately good. He was a huge part of that. 2013 Warriors. He was like 20 and 10 and getting to the line. All right, next question from Bob Madson in Milwaukee. Basically, are the Celtics qualifying for the Ewing Theory this year with Jason Tatum out and them still playing well? The answer is just a flat out no. They won the title with Jason Tatum. If you win the title, you are automatically ineligible for the Ewing Theory. It can't be mentioned. The whole point of the Ewing Theory is you never won a title. The team played better without you. They won the title with Jason Tatum.

They're also not playing better without him. But lots of guys are playing well above and beyond.

Having the second-rated offense has been confusing.

Shocking.

I don't understand that at all. I watched this team, and I actually really love watching this team, but I don't understand how they have second-rated offense.

Even in watching in real-time, I'm not usually sure how it's happening.

It's like offensive rebounds and weird threes, pull up contested threes.

Clearly, those things alone go a long way, It looks like the energy of the team goes a long way. But I am worried about you and what your attachment to this group is going to be. Do you want Jason Tatum to come back? I know you keep pushing for him eventually in order to make- He's coming back. It's happening. I'm sure he will, but you're going to miss this version of the team.

I'm so much deeper. It's so much darker how into this team, me and some of the other. I was creating Fanspo Trade Threads with the Simon's contract and trying to figure out the best one and finally came up with Malik Monk and just any thing where it would save them 6 million bucks. But as you know, I've always liked Malik. Simons expiring, the Kings can get out of that. They get Malik Monk. We try to rejuvenate him, former sixth man of the year. Save like 6 the end of the year, save like six million bucks, gets them closer under the first apron. I'm at that level. I'm making up like the King Celtics trades.

Absolutely insane.

I can apologize for it either.

I mean, nor should you. I think Look, if you were standing on the edge of a cliff and Hugo Gonzales and Jordan Walsh and one of your children were dangling on the edge and you can only save- Which child? I'm going to leave that to you to choose. I'm saying if you can only choose one, I think you would at least think about it.

It's gotten to the point where Mazula has been amazing, but he blew the Portland game. He took Kate out with three minutes left to go small for reasons that remain unclear. Clingin ended up getting the biggest rebound of the game, put back, and they ended up losing. They had a couple of dumb turnovers. But just texting angrily with my dad that they blew the Portland game. I'm like, This is great. What a great place to be. Just furious that they lost to Portland. Another Boston question, quick, from Scotty. Ironically, he starts it off, I know you're a Boston homer, but I also think you take your NBA vote seriously. Thank you, Scotty. Do you think Jalen has been a first-team all-MBA guy so far? I'm slightly the wrong person to ask, not because of the Boston homer thing, but because I'll put five guards on my team as first team.

You want actual positions or some semblance of it.

I want to have a team that looks at least something like a team. For me, he's been the best forward in the league. I think for me, it would be Jokaj, SGA, Jalen. Then we could fight about Maxi, Ant, Brunson, Kate, and Luka, two of those five. I personally would have Luka on the second team despite the stats. I have Jokaj, SGA, Jalen, Maxi, and Ant as my first team on the NBA right now. Maxi because of the minutes he's playing and all the stuff he does for that team and the stats. I just think he's been unbelievable. Ant's just Ant's at the point now where it's proof to me he shouldn't be on the first team. He's just awesome. He's so good. I remember where Durant and I were arguing about this once when we did all our pods together and I was talking about somebody who was second team and first team. He's like, But what's the point of the team if I'm one of the best five players in the league? I'm like, Yeah, I guess that's right. Ant, I just don't know how he's not on the team. If you had to knock out any of those guys, who would you knock out?

Well, let me start with this. Are you treating Yannis as basically ineligible? Because he's not technically ineligible yet.

I don't have him on any of the teams yet. If Yannis is going to be eligible, then that screws this up. Then maybe Jalen gets bumped.

You had Jokić on the team.

Yes.

I mean, so there may be openings just from Yannis and Jokić being off of it, not being eligible with the 65 game threshold. That would create some room, although...

Do you have to have a big man on each team or you don't care? I don't care.

I'm just going to take the five. I don't like it because the parameters of how we vote now makes, to me, the MVP ballot look a lot like your first-team All-NBA. I would like them to feel different. I just think with what we're asked to do, it's basically the same thing.

I wish we had one big and one true wing and one true guard, and then you could do whatever you wanted with the other two spots. Yeah, I just think it should look something like a real team. I also think it's... To me, right now, I have Jokuj first team, I have Schengen second team, and I have Jalen Durn third team. I think all those guys deserve to be recognized as all-MBA guys. Whether Luka can play his way on there, we'll see. But Jalen Johnson, I have as a second Team, all-MBA guy right now, even though they have a slightly losing record, they're three down. Then for third team, Murray Mitchell and Curry, I think all have to be in there. We know who the best 15 guys. If you're talking bubble guys. The bubble guys right now are Booker and Durán and Márquinen. I have Towns as a third team for now. Yeah.

Do you have Brunson as second team?

Brunson's second team. But honestly, if you wanted to do a five-minute argument about Brunson versus Maxi or Brunson versus Ant, you can make the case, right?

Yes. I really go back and forth all the time between, specifically, Brunson, Maxi, and Kate Cunningham. All three of whom influence the game in slightly different ways, wildly It really is just a matter of taste. Do you want Brunson's ability to gut out points or Maxi's ability to be purely athletic or Kate's combination of offense and defense? I honestly waffle with those guys a lot. I think right now, I would probably favor Brunson among the three of them. But ask me again in a week and I might feel differently.

I'm ready to move Kade up to one. If they stay a one seed or a two seed, that's going to change the conversation for me. If Ant's a six seed and New York and Detroit are the one in the two seat. I think maybe you think about it differently.

Do you think any other Thunder guys will make it? Do you have Chet anywhere near the conversation?

I didn't. Wemby is the wild card. Hard whether he can play enough games. My team sucks too much, guys. Avdie and Porter, I think, are the two, but their teams just aren't good enough. There's some guys lingering, let me add my eye on, like Ahmed Thompson. Honestly, Fox, I think, has at least played his way close to the bubble with how important he's been for them. He carried them when Wemby was out. I think he's been huge in these OKC games. Ananobi is another one that I think, as a two-way guy, at least has to be thrown into the bubble section. Yeah.

See, I'm trying to think, would I take Fox over Castle? I'm not saying Castle should be in the mix. I think they're both probably a little further down.

I'll add Castle to my list. That's a good one.

I mean, Castle The energy he plays with is transformative, and I think that's worth noting for sure.

Yeah, that's a good one. Well, we'll see. But the bigger point is Jalen's been a 30-point game scorer all year. I've talked about this four in the pot. He's gone toe-to-to with the other team's best guy every game. I just think he went up a level, and I don't really fully understand it. I've never seen a guy go up a level in year 10. I didn't think... Nba, you know who guys are by year seven, year eight. Year 10 is unusual.

To be this productive, again, for a team that is top five offense and this successful in the standings, you can't discount that anymore. Those are all NBA credentials. There's no doubt about it.

Mike from DC wants to know, why don't we live in a world where Darequine's spin move is called the DQ blizzard?

Oh, my God.

Let's just put that in the world right now.

Fucking meant it. First of all, we need to get the consult. You said it was Darequin. Who was the emailer who suggested this?

Mike Mike needs a consult fee.

We got to get it connected on the deal somehow, but this has to happen.

The DQ blizzard is great. I remember once upon a time, I was pushing hard for Paul George to change his uniform, remember, to 13? He was doing MBA columns about it. Just change to 13 and your nickname could be PG 13. Then he did it and his nickname became PG 13. Now I give the world the DQ blizzard, courtesy of Mike from DC.

It's honestly beautiful. We need to be able to just change his name on the jersey. Obviously, there's 13. There's no AK 47 possibility here. But just put blizzard on the back of Derek Queens' jersey. Blizz, yeah.

You could even nickname it. Come on. All right. We're near the end here. Andrew Zee wants to know. So I had the Mekesky Award for the best American white guy that I've been joking about since I had my column at ESPN, that we needed a best American white guy award. One year, we made a Mekesky plaque for it.

I've been thinking, American white guys just aren't getting enough credit for things. We really do need another trophy for me to hand them.

Hold on to your hat. He wants to know why DeMontes Sabones is not eligible for the Mekesky Award.

It's a complicated case.

Born in Portland, Oregon. Yes. Lived there until he was eight. Played center at Gonzaga. Basically, he was gone for 10 years. If he was eligible, then does he retroactively get six Mekesky So I went through this. He went to high school in Spain, and he plays for Lithuania in the Olympics. I don't think he's eligible.

So the Olympic qualification does matter to you?

I think it does. The combo of that. I think two of the things that have to happen are high school in America, and you have to be eligible for the American Olympic team, or at least that's who you play for in You can call also vetoed out. One of two. Yeah, I just think... Then the other thing is, could we expand to North America? Because then that brings in Nash, but it's like, we play Canada in the Olympics. Now I'm changing the Mekesky. I don't want to change the Mekesky. Mekesky is what it is. But it does lead to an email from Matt from Des Moines who asked-It would, first of all, lead to an email from Des Moines. Are white guys having a moment in the NBA right now? Is this the best white American talent pool since the merger? I was like, You know what? This is interesting. So we're not including the foreign guys. Okay. Kalkbrenner, Huff, Filipowski, Herta, Podzempski, Quint Post, Leravia, and Grady Dick. Not even on the final team. Okay, good. They're like, We're inviting them to the 100-person tryout. Yeah. Donovan Clingon, Reid Sheppard, Luke Cornet, Jaime Haukes, Alex Caruso, Sam Hauser, Gilles Gilles Gauzeau, Zack Ead, T.

J. Mcconnel, D. Fincenzo, Duncan Robinson. Not even starting. Christian Braun, Tyler Hero, Reeves, Holmgren, D. Flag. It is a lot. I was surprised when I saw all of it down. Is it the shooting? Is it the spacing? What's going on, Rob?

Well, it's always the shooting. It's the shooting. It's the surprising athleticism. It's the feel for It's the game. It's the competitive savvy. It is all of these things. I will say the one part of this that has been striking is the con Cooper Rookee of the Year race is now really heating up. And those guys are just like, these are real deal star-level prospects. And where they separate themselves from a lot of the guys you listed who are nice shooters or nice bigs. It's like, they can do everything. These are guys you want to put the ball on their hands and see just how far it can go. I don't know that we've seen many white American players with that profile in a long time. It's been a A lot of supporting stars, role guys. Cooper and Concanippal feel like something pretty different from what we've had lately.

I went back and looked at some of the old Mekeske's. Chris Kamen won one year.

A true legend in the game.

Mike Miller won. This is a renaissance. Okay. Gabe Halper and Goldstein wants to know why we're barely hearing Philly in the Honest Trade Rumors. Is Darryl just asleep at the wheel?

So what's the package?

He wonders, could it Could it be Embiid in all their pics, and then you hope Embiid gets scratch? Could it be Paul George with Edgecom? You throw in a bunch of pics. They do have the big contract to put with Yannis. They do have the hedge cone piece, and they do have a bunch of pics. And it is weird that they haven't been mentioned at all. If your ultimate goal is, Could we just end up with Maxi and Yannis? We'll figure out the rest later.

I would guess probably the reason is because the salary that would be going back, whether it's Paul George or Embiid, those heavy contracts, not just in terms of the number, but the implications that come with them. And so if you are Milwaukee, you would need a third team to take those contracts, or you would just be saddling yourself with that experience. But as far as Yann is on the Sixers, Tyrese Maxi is exactly the player I would want playing with Yannis.

I got excited about it.

Maybe we do have to gin up the conversation.

Well, you also Darryl, as I've talked about many times, the classic, I just want to have three stars. I'll figure out the rest. If he could figure out I just think Edgecom has to be in it. I don't know how you get Yannis.

I thought we were just treating Dominic Barlow as the third star.

Maybe Quitten Grimes is the third star. I don't know. But I just feel like if he could be, I have Yannis, I have Max, I have two first-team or second-team OMBA guys. I'll figure out the rest of the team later. All right, last question. I thought this was a great question. I'm glad you're here for it. It's from somebody whose name is Al Pacino in Boston. I don't know if that's his Gmail name or whatever it is. He said, It seems like a near certainty we're going to name an award after Steph when he retires. It's probably going to be something boring, like the three-point contest. I propose something convoluted instead. Steph is the absolute undisputed goat of shooting. Nobody would ever argue Rael was a better shooter than Steph. Why wouldn't the Steph Curry Award go to the Poir who was the most dominant at a certain skill that season. So what player was the best at their skill versus all the other guys at that skill? He says this season would probably come down to Steph shooting, Wemby shot blocking or Jokuj passing. And then you bet on who had the best skill.

He said, Most memorable winners would include 1958 Bill Russell, 1987 Michael Jordan, who was eight points higher than the next guy's scoring, and '93 Dennis Robman, who had 18. 3 boards. Shaq was next at 13. 9. It would get the general public to appreciate certain skills more. I think it would be fun. Keep up the good work.

I love this.

I loved it, too. What a great idea. What was the best, most dominant skill of the year? That would be a really fun thing to figure out. I don't even know. This year, I would say Jokuj is playmaking, but I don't know if playmaking is a skill.

Might just be a scoring, to be honest. He could be in the running in a couple of different ways.

Right. So could SGA's mid-range game, that would be eligible? I guess they would have to tell us, Here are the 10 things that are eligible this year for this award. It's like, Curry shooting, SGA's mid-range game, Jalen Brown's mid-range game, Jokuj is passing, Wemby's shop walking.

Caisen Wallace in the passing lanes. Let's get weird with it. I think there's some real potential here. I also, to tie the convoluted awards together in the spirit of the I know is whatever moment that I haven't seen is that truly surprised you. I think the Steph double bang against OKC might be the closest thing that the NBA has had to the red wedding. I guess maybe LeBron chase down in game seven might actually be that, but Steph on both sides of it, unfortunately.

Wow, that's a good one. What was the red wedding? Is that the Ray Allen shot?

Actually, that's a great one. I feel like it would have to be the stakes of the play.

It's the last 28. 2 seconds of the 2013 game 6. It's the red wedding.

Phenomenal.

It's the red wedding for Spurs fans. And much like in Game of Thrones, the family bounced back.

Look at that.

Came back a year later. All right, so you like this, the Steph Curry Award.

I'm very much in favor of it. I like the long list idea of let's get five or 10 honest to goodness. Ten nominees. Just truly elite at whatever it is they do. It can be big or small, but naturally, the award, I think, is going to go to which of these things mattered the most.

What's your What's the role in elite skill right now, 30 games in? Who's the leader for the Steph Curry?

Are we treating shot creation as one skill, or is it broken up into scoring or passing or whatever?

I think it would have to be a little more minute, where it's like, Shot blocking, rim protection, that's one. Passing, mid-range game, long-range shooting. Rebounding would be the other one. If somebody's like, I have, I average 20 rebounds a game this year, Nobody else had 12. You're probably winning the Steph Curry that year.

For the sake of full circling this thing and bring it back to Nicole Joghich being out for the next four weeks, I think it is his playmaking. I think that is the single most irreplaceable and valuable skill that is happening for any team at any level right now. And some of that is because the things that make the Thunder great, for example, are so balanced out between five and six and eight different stakeholders who are all really good at what they do. Nobody does what Joghich does. Nobody has that impact on the game. If you're pointing at the guy who is most like Steph in terms of warping everything around him, I think it's Nikola Jokuj.

So playmaking would be a skill. I agree. That should be a skill. It would be funny if rim running finishes Somebody just won one year because they had 377 rim run finishes compared to 100 for the next person. But I like this. I think there's something here. Congratulations, Al Pacino. Rob Mahony, thanks for sticking with us for the mailback. Thanks, Phil. This was fun. I had a good time. Good to see you. Happy holidays. All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Gehow. Thanks to Isiah. Thanks to Mahony. I hope you have an awesome New Year's Eve. Please stay safe. I am excited to get to 2026. This is an interesting year, to say the least, but 2026 is looming. Can't wait. Thanks for everything. Thanks for listening. Thanks for supporting everything we're doing here at The Ringer. Thanks for supporting this podcast and I will see you in 2026.

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