Transcript of Sabrina Zohar: How to Stop Chasing People Who Don’t Want You New

Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute, and I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. Today's guest is one of your favorites, Sabrina Zohar, a dating and relationship coach, author, and the host of the Sabrina Zohar Show. Through her honest, no-nonsense approach to modern relationships, she has helped millions of people recognize the dating patterns keeping them stuck and learn how to break them. Her new book is called Why Am I Like This? And it explores how our earliest experiences shape who we pursue, what we tolerate, and the way we respond to love. Sabrina Zohar, welcome back to On Purpose.

Hi, Jay. I'm so excited to be here.

Congratulations on your new book.

Thank you.

So exciting. And I have to say that I feel like you cover such important ground in this book, which actually sets people up for long-term success. I think we live in a world where we get a lot of quick dating advice. We get a lot of good insights on what to do when you're trying to get married or whatever else it may be. And that's all useful, but I feel like I've seen couples stay together or break up based on what you address in this book. And so I really feel that You've done a real service to everyone who reads it to understand what's at the core of the success or failure of their relationship.

Thanks, Jay. I think for me, I look at so many of these patterns and so many things that we keep repeating over and over and over again. And so if we can understand, first of all, the why, sure, but then it's what are you gonna do with it? 'Cause otherwise, like you said, you're repeating the same thing for years. So I'm really excited to talk about not the band-aids. This is like going to the root of this massive gash that you have in your arm. And instead of just throwing a little, like, you know, cute little pink band-aid on it, we're actually gonna get to the wound, heal it so that you get the life and love that you deserve, that you've always deserved, but maybe somewhere along the lines you learned otherwise.

Was there a specific relationship or a specific moment that made you ask, why am I like this?

To me, I say I found myself by bed hopping, which is just like a nice way of me saying I found myself. I just kept going from person to person to person, hoping eventually this feeling would go away and finding it in all these places that for 5 seconds they would be there and then they'd come back. And truthfully told, it was the biggest breakup I ever had was I dated someone like my dad. He was very reminiscent, felt the same, right? It might not be the same look. He didn't speak in the same way, but how I felt was the same, feeling really small and dismissed and like there was something wrong with me. And I'll never forget, he broke up with me and he left and he went on a trip and I started therapy. And I kept saying, it's all my fault. It's all my fault. Why am I like this? And she repeated it back to me and I said, well, it couldn't have all been my fault. And that was the moment that crack in the armor that allowed me to say, wait a minute, there's gotta be more to this.

And understanding why I'm like this was the first step, because then what are you gonna do with it?

We think when something feels familiar, it must be right. But talk to me about how it can actually be wrong.

So for a lot of us, at least I can say present company included, home never was safe. And so if somebody feels like home, that can often feel like I'm being dismissed or I'm being put down or feeling like I can't authentically be myself in a place where that's all I want to be. And so For a lot of us, it's repetition compulsion. We keep dating the parts, we're having relationships. And I wanna preface, this isn't just romantic, this is also career, right? If you start to look back and think, wow, I consistently had the same bosses or friendships, I had the same friends that always took something from me. Because what ends up happening is when we're 0 to 18 months, we're nonverbal. And so because of that, our nervous system is picking up on every single cue, every facial expression, every micro moment to create, okay, this is how I keep safe, this is how I stay safe.

That's maladaptive.

Because then we become an adult and all of a sudden you look and say, I'm treating this person like I would a 6-year-old. For a lot of people, they think the spark, right? Oh, I wanna feel this intensity with somebody and they feel like home. That's where I would start to say, well, how do you feel when you're with this person? Do you feel seen, heard, and understood? Because for a lot of us, we are going to keep having relationships, whatever those look like, with people that are unhealed versions of the parts of us that need us more. Because we believe, you know, Jay, if you and I were dating right now, that if you and I went on a date and you're just like my dad was, right? A little bit more. more cold and gregarious and big at first, but more narcissistic, then my nervous system is going, I know what to do here. This I can do. I can keep me safe here. I know. Versus if you're an amazing and loving and sweet and you're just giving me love freely, but that goes against my core beliefs that I have to earn it and I'm not deserving of it, well then my body's gonna say, no, something feels off.

I don't think this is right. And so we have to look and say, is familiar familiar because it feels good or is familiar because that's just how you've kept yourself safe in the past? But now we We actually get to rewrite a new version of the person that we wanna become so that I can actually have the life I want and not the one I was told that I get.

And it's fascinating, right? Because when we have these experiences, we don't map them back to our childhood. We just think, oh, this person's wrong for me. This person's right for me. We're not really having this deeper conversation that you are asking us to address through the book. There's this idea that you share that I really wanted to touch on. The first 18 months of our life before language, even becomes a part of our journey, what are we experiencing? What's happening to us that's actually affecting our relationships as adults?

So in the book, I talk about the still face experiment. Not sure if you're familiar prior to this. So the still face experiment has been replicated 100 times over, but it started in the '70s. And essentially what they did was they put a mom in front of her baby and they had the mom cooing and making facial expressions and having a good time with the kid. And then they instructed parents to just, the mom to just sit stoic. And just be. And what they saw was you started to see those attachment styles come through. You started to see the kid that was getting really anxious and throwing things to try to reconnect with the mom. You saw the kid just shut down and just sit there in complete silence. You saw the kids that might've been more secure, that's like looking around. And then they instructed the mom to come back on and be back into normal with her child. And what that really shows us is that we think kids are like these little blobs, right? Oh, they don't hear, they don't understand verbiage or language, but they are looking at how much you're making it, paying attention to them, how much eye contact you're making.

Are you attuning to their needs, right? So if your kid cries, are you ignoring them for 25 minutes, which then teaches their nervous system, I'm not safe, I can't trust, there's no reliability? And then also too, I know this is probably not gonna be what people wanna hear, but the impact of Botox, that Botox, because it freezes your face, you're not making eye contact and making expressions. So kids grow up and then they think when you make a face at them that you're mad at them, but it's because they never were able to map out what mad, happy, sad looked like. And so it really shows how those micro moments, and I wanna also I wanna also preface, so many of us hear things on the internet that blame our parents. This isn't about blame, it's about accountability. It's about saying, I turned out this way. That doesn't mean my parents are bad people, right? I had the big T traumas. They were a bit more obvious. You could have had a great childhood, but maybe your dad was working full-time, so you never knew when he was gonna come back, and your mom was always on the phone.

And what it is, is it's really that we create this narrative because as kids, we're bottom-up. So we feel it in our body first, and then we go into our head, we create narratives and stories. As adults, we're top-down. So we start in our head. We overthink, we think that we can get away with it 'cause we don't wanna feel because those feelings are so intense. I'm curious, your experience. Have you ever listened to a song from like 20 years ago and you feel something?

100%.

You don't remember maybe where you were when you heard it. You don't remember the thought, but you remember the feeling.

Yeah.

That's exactly our nervous system at play. Our brain is designed to keep you safe. It is not designed to help you grow. So your brain right now doesn't know that Jay has credit cards, is an adult, can go off and have free will. Your brain knows that, let's say your wife said something to you that brought you back to being a kid. All of a sudden it's, okay, We know how to keep ourselves safe. Let's go to what we always know to do, because it's always gonna take the path of least resistance because it's trying to conserve energy so that it can still maintain safety, even though we're not in the jungle anymore and we're not being chased, but our tiger has become our cell phone.

Instagram Teen Accounts come with automatic protections that limit who can contact teens, the content they can see, and the time they spend on the app. Learn more about Teen Accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. Gimme a real life example of that as to how that shows, because I completely agree with you and I can think of a few, but I wanna hear it from you.

So I have one that always comes to mind that I think about, that when Ryan and I first started dating, I said, can we go somewhere? And he said, no. That was it. He just went, no, and walked out. And that was it. I, my whole body went to this like heat mode. I started going into, oh my God, I'm gonna kill him. Oh my God, wait, how could he say this to me? I need to like, what is going on? Protest behavior. So protest behavior is when you feel like you are losing connection. It's not just romantic, it can be any other way. in protest to try to reconnect with somebody. And so instead I had to stop and say, okay, 2 questions I ask in the book, how old do I feel? So I felt like a 7-year-old. I was like, okay, why do I feel like I'm 7? This reminds me of dealing with my dad. He was just, he could just go and walk off and you felt dismissed. And I said, okay, where did I learn this from? That's where I learned it from. And so then when Ryan came back, I said, hey, can I share something with you?

He's like, yeah. I said, when you said no, it really sent me for a tailspin. I'm not saying that you need to change anything, but moving forward, do you think you could tell me why you don't wanna do something so I don't create narratives? We've never had that issue again.

Hmm.

It's little things, right? I think we see the word trigger and think, oh, it has to be a big moment. A trigger is a neutral action or inaction. And instead of sitting and starting to say, why does it make me feel like this? Why am I doing this? I want us to reframe to, I don't like. I don't like that I'm doing this. Okay, what don't I like about it? I feel like I'm out of control. Okay, you see how we can start to get down to the root of what's actually bothering us? Because we have to remember, Your amygdala in the back of your brain, prefrontal cortex at the front. Your amygdala fires on within like a 20th of a millisecond. It takes 10 times longer for your prefrontal cortex to turn on. So for us to challenge our thoughts, to sit in the discomfort, to do the things that most of us don't wanna do takes a lot more bandwidth. So your brain is gonna go, you know what? Jay feels like he's 7 again. Let's just go back to what he's always done. And then that way we'll achieve the result we've always had.

But that's maladaptive because now you're an adult, you're dealing with people that are not your mom and dad. And so we have to be able to rewire, and we are neuroplastic. But again, we have to remember that that takes actual momentum to do because you're not gonna change your thought process by just thinking about it all the time. You're gonna make new choices, you're going to expand your window of tolerance, you're gonna have more capacity, and then by then you make different choices.

Sometimes we don't say the thing we need to say to our partner because we want to appear low maintenance or we don't want to appear difficult. Talk to me about how you were confident enough to actually raise something like that.

I'll be honest with you, I lost myself. I lost myself with my ex-relationship. I was a shell of a human. I was £90 soaking wet, and you know, I'm 5'8, so like, that was very concerning for people. I had no identity, didn't know what music I liked, didn't know what clothes I liked, didn't know what I wanted to eat for dinner because everything was dictated by him when we were together. And so it was slowly but surely having to say, okay, what are the new choices I can make? How can I start to understand this? That took me 9 years to start to actually implement. And then what happens? Confidence is built after you do something and realize you're okay. It doesn't And my favorite word now has become no. But the thing is, when you start to set boundaries and you start to say no, you also have to be okay grieving the loss of people. Because to your point, the people that benefited from the fact that you didn't have boundaries are going to now lash out when you try to tell them something that might be different. And so I see it as we wanna go really slow.

You don't wanna overwhelm your nervous system and start going, okay, tomorrow I'm gonna go out and set a bunch of boundaries and I'm gonna tell all of my family and friends no. Because then your nervous system's going to be like, whoa, wait, we're not safe. This isn't okay. And so we want to make it really incremental. And so I give an example of, let's say you wanted to run a marathon and you have literally never walked a day in your life. You are sitting at a desk for 15 hours. The last thing I'm going to say is go on a 10-mile hike tomorrow. So what I would say is put your one shoe by the door and put the other shoe by the door the next day. And then the following day you put a sock, and then the following day you put another sock. What that does is it tells your nervous system, this is safe for me. And so then we start to build capacity so we're not as scared of all these little things. But to your point, The cool girl or guy finishes last because they're one-dimensional. Nobody wants to be with a partner who doesn't say no, who doesn't have a thought and an opinion unless they benefit from the fact that you don't say no.

Hmm.

And so when we try to play the cool girl or guy, my thought is like, where are we going with this? What are we doing? I'm losing myself. And I think my mama has always said, you gotta love yourself more than the need to be loved by other people. And I think once you start to do that, when you love yourself, it's not bubble baths and face masks, it's setting boundaries. It's saying, I need water and some food because otherwise, Otherwise, I'm not gonna be able to take care of myself. It's saying, sorry, I can't go out after 9. That doesn't work for me. I need to be up early. It sounds like saying, I want a relationship and I'm intentional. And if you're not, I'm okay to lose you because of that, because I'm more afraid of losing myself than I am anybody external. That is when you'll start to see your life change. That is what helped me change my life. Because when I met with Ryan, right? When I met Ryan, we slept together on the first date, right? That should never have worked out. But I was so more afraid of losing myself 'cause I had had so many times.

Who was he? He was just another person in my world. But then it ended up becoming my partner of almost 4 years.

What's the difference between setting boundaries and putting up walls?

Setting boundaries should still be flexible. So to me, boundaries keep people in your life, right? So if I say, Jay, please don't call me after 9, you call me after 9, you didn't just cross my boundary. You just maybe forgot. You're a human. You thought maybe I'd be up. I cross my boundaries if I pick up the phone when I told you I wouldn't. A wall keeps people out. I see boundaries as I trust myself enough and I love myself so much that this is what need to show up sustainably. To me, a wall is, I don't trust myself, I'm scared, this is coming from fear. So if I put this out and you then work your way through, you've proven to me that you should have a place in my life.

Hmm.

But walls are also very rigid, right? We see it, you see the internet like I do, of the, if they don't do this and they don't do this, that's a very black and white binary. I'm good, you're bad, or you're good, I'm bad. And we see boundaries as being flexible because if I told you I don't answer after 9 and you tell me, Babe, I only have 9:30. I'm so sorry. It's the only time I can call. Can we do it once a week? I'm flexible, right? Okay, fine. On Wednesdays, I'll answer the phone versus a wall is nope. You keep people out versus letting them in.

That's such a great answer. And I'm so glad you raised that because I do think that we've got to a place in society where boundaries are really just excuses for walls and we now don't allow anyone in. Because I know who I am, I know what I need, you are not good enough for me, I deserve better, rather than the flexibility and the openness to say, maybe there's a conversation. Maybe we get to say why that boundary existed with the past ex-partner and doesn't need to exist with this person, or it needs to be adjusted. And I do feel that we've gone kind of to either or extreme. And then let's talk about the other type of person, because that's the kind of person uses boundaries as a wall. There's the other type of person that feels guilty for setting boundaries. Why do we feel guilty for setting boundaries?

Who taught you that setting a boundary means you're a bad person? For me, I grew up, if you set a boundary, you were gonna get hit, you were gonna get yelled at. You were gonna like, you don't tell somebody no, you don't say, I don't wanna do that. That doesn't work for me. So I learned me saying a need means that there's something wrong with me. I'm too much. This person's leaving because I didn't have anyone come and say, hey, you're allowed to say that. You're allowed to. So I created this, boundaries means I'm going to lose people, which now I see it as boundary means I'm gonna keep the right people. To your point, what I see with the people, especially with that rigidity around it, we have that pendulum. You're either so rigid you don't let anybody in, or you have no boundaries whatsoever and people walk all over you. What I see often, and I'm sure you probably see this too, a lot of people use boundaries as a means of control.

Yeah.

You have to do this. If you start a boundary with, you have to, that is a request or you are trying to control the other person. Telling somebody, you have to text me every single day in the beginning of dating, otherwise I don't wanna date you. That's not a boundary. You don't need that fundamentally, first of all. Second of all, you are not having a conversation. You are not saying what you are going to do, 'cause that's what boundaries are. Here's what I am willing to do. I'm not going to date somebody who is not communicative. I'm not going to be in a relationship with somebody who isn't authentic. And I see boundaries as vulnerability. You have to be vulnerable enough to share those parts of yourself. Then we just go to the pendulum swinging of people pleasing. And I know that this really upsets people when I say it, but people pleasing can be very manipulative, not intentionally. It's not like you're doing this on purpose to hurt somebody, but if you are saying yes because you're scared of what happens when you say no, then you're not actually being authentic. You're not taking up space, you're self-abandoning, and you're so terrified of losing this person that you've already lost yourself in order to keep them.

You're right. It's a subconscious manipulation tactic where you're trying to get a reaction, you're trying to get the result that you wanted, and you're willing to shapeshift and mold yourself. But then afterwards you lose yourself and you abandon yourself and realize you didn't wanna be that person even to get that result.

Yeah. I don't wanna have to do something that doesn't make me feel good just to make sure that you stay. How many times I see this, more than I can count. People that are maybe in relationships for 5, 10 years that the person tells them, I just, I don't like a label. And instead of going, well, I do, this doesn't work for me, I'd rather walk, it's, okay, well, you know what? I'm probably being too much and I'm pushing them way too much and it's me and it's me. Why? Because if it's me, that means I have control of the outcome. If I'm the problem, then I can fix it. And if I can fix it, I can get what I want. And we don't realize, like, that's the last thing you have control over. All you have control over is how you show up and what it is that you're willing to allow.

Mm-hmm.

And the harshest reality I ever learned? Take a look at the people in your life, romantic, personal, professional, and then you tell me how much you love yourself based on the people that you're surrounded by. Because who you allow in your life tells me how much you love yourself and what you're willing to put up with.

What should we be willing to allow?

I think non-negotiables are important. So I actually heard this quote that changed my life the other day, and I'm gonna share it with you. Is what you're getting enough to grieve what you're not in the relationship? So when we think of that, right?

That's really good.

Is what I'm getting enough in this dynamic to grieve the things that I'm not? And so if that means this person's dismissive and they make me feel really small and they don't wanna show me off and they're really mean or they're cold or they're narcissistic or whatever, right? Is that okay for me to grieve the parts that I want someone gregarious and big and funny and jovial? For some people, the answer is no. One person will never be all things. We need community. We need people. If you— the one is the biggest myth. I talk about that in the book. Disney lied to us. You think what? That there's gonna be some one person that comes in, swoops you up, and saves you. That was the little girl in me that didn't wanna live the reality that I was living and was hoping someone was gonna come and get me. But then let's also go into that. I needed a slipper for this guy to know who I was, right? Cinderella. You're like, this is normal to you? Belle is with her captor and you're saying Stockholm syndrome makes sense to us? And so I think we need to start and say, what did you used to accept that you're no longer willing to?

That's the first place I start when we start to understand what should I allow? What I allow are things that make my nervous system feel good with this person. So if that means that when my partner is dismissive of me and walks away when I'm in the middle of a sentence, when they pick up their phone when I'm trying to connect with them. That might not work for me. 80/20. Is it enough for me to grieve what I'm not getting? Am I getting 80% and the 20% I can get rid of, or am I constantly feeling depleted? The bank account's always in the red. The example I use is if you were going for a job right now, let's say you need a $100,000 salary just for argument's sake, but you go for a job, right? A person, and they're willing to give you $20,000. What happens if you take that $20,000 salary? You're scared you're never gonna find anyone else. Oh my God, I'm gonna be homeless. Your needs are never met. You're always wanting more. Then you start to grow resentful towards that person. All the while this person's saying, but I told you all I had was 20.

You needed more. Those are those moments where we have to stop and say, is this enough for me to say I would be okay with this for the rest of my life if I marry this person? If the answer is no, that doesn't make you a bad person. I think what the most beautiful thing is honesty. Because if I can tell you that this doesn't work for me, I'm maintaining my boundaries, my authenticity, and I'm also letting you find somebody that would see you in that same light, which I think is really beautiful.

That's such a great analogy. I love that.

Right?

That makes so much sense. Puts it into perspective. That makes so much sense. Yeah, absolutely.

Marriage, work, I don't care where you are, but we have to be sure that like my cup is filled and I have to fill it.

Yeah. And it actually aligns with the Gottman study that I've read that talks about how if your partner's response rate is 33%, you're likely to get to a divorce. And if it's 88%, you're likely to have a long-term marriage or relationship. And so when you think about getting paid $33,000, out of your $100,000, that's what you're getting and that's not going to sustain. Whereas if you're getting $88,000, it may not be $100,000, but it's perfect. It does the job. And so that even applies to the research that they did when they looked at people's styles and they said response rate to bids of affection, connection, communication, repair, it was anything that was 33% or lower was not going to work And the reality too is you can date somebody or be in a relationship with somebody and you two trigger the living hell out of each other and you're just not right.

They then find someone, they might actually be better for them because maybe for me, if my traumas are very specific flavor and so are yours, you had a childhood, I had a childhood, and we just constantly battle cuz maybe you're just like my mom and that drives me insane. And then I meet somebody else who's more like my sister or my brother that feels more comfortable to me. It makes me sad because I feel like we're in this time where it's either run from everything or stay way too long and make it work no matter what. And I feel like we should find a balance in the middle to say, are my needs met? My fundamental needs met? Does this person make me feel seen, heard, and understood? Do I feel safe with them? And that could be family as well. That doesn't just— or friendships. Friendship breakups are so much more painful oftentimes than romantic ones, 'cause that's your chosen family, right? You see every nook and cranny, and I'm being authentically myself, but that doesn't mean that I should keep someone in my life 'cause I've known them for a long time. That means that maybe I've outgrown this relationship.

And I think, again, if you are not dating your partner, you are doing the biggest disservice in your relationship. The 3 myths I hear all the time: you and your partner should never fight. I don't know who said that. I don't know why you would say that. Your partner's gonna piss you off. They're gonna drive you insane. You are 100% gonna get triggered by your partner. That doesn't make them wrong for you. The other aspect here is you have to still date your partner. You are both going to grow and evolve. I hope that I change. I hope I'm not the same person 5 years later. And if you're not still trying to get curious, about who your partner is becoming, to me, it just feels like you're missing out this huge opportunity because you're almost stunted in arrested development. You're staying in the early stages, especially people that can't get over someone. Oh, but in the beginning, it was great. When we first met, they were really amazing. And you're holding them to a standard that I don't even think they would wanna be held to because you're not willing to see them for who they are.

Because if you do, you might have to acknowledge that you had to see your parents for who they were. You have to see other people, and that can feel really painful. So it's easier to see the reflection of them because then you don't have to sit with your own disappointment.

How do you know if what you're willing to allow is just based on what you allowed from your parents?

Where are your patterns? What do you keep repeating? So when I dated my ex, the one I talk about in the book, the moment I stopped and I went, okay, I've done this with every person. I lose myself. I get really anxious when they talk to me like this. And so we wanna say, does the pinch match the ouch? Is the way that this person's engaging with me, have I felt this before? That's why I love the questions, how old do I feel? And where did I learn this from? Because I think a lot of people want to say, oh, I learned it from my first boyfriend in college or the girl in high high school that broke my heart. Well, then I start to trail it back and say, okay, how often does this happen? When's the first time you remember feeling like this? And if you say, oh man, when I was 5, let's start to get curious about what's the behavior that you learned from those people. I will give you an example. My mom is a people pleaser. Oh, to the moon and back. She will apologize for breathing. She just always feels like she's taking up so much space.

And it breaks my heart because that's her childhood. And for a while I did the same thing. If I asked for a need to be met in a heterosexual norm, a guy said no to me, I would recoil and be like, oh my I'm so sorry. You're right. I apologize. I didn't mean to bother you. And then I started saying, I learned that from her. And then what that required of me was to then go back to that version of myself and say, you're allowed to disappoint people. And you know what? I owe you an apology because I've been doing to you what everybody has done to you this whole time. I kept you quiet. I told you to perform. I didn't let you be authentically yourself. And when we can reconnect, 'cause compassion actually releases more dopamine than external dopamine. So if you can show yourself that love, and I think we've seen this muddied of self-love. Self-love means just not attacking yourself. yourself and saying, given everything I've been through, of course it makes sense I would feel like that. That's how we can actually grow and move on and stop staying stuck.

But that requires grieving, grieving the life I thought I was going to have, grieving the life I did have, and grieving the parts of me that felt like they had to keep me safe because the adult version of me couldn't do that.

Would you agree that I see 2 types of relationships, one where both people don't really make an effort and things fall apart, or the other where one person's really trying and the other person's not really engaging. Those are the 2 types of relationships I see. Is there a 3rd one that I'm missing?

I think, and I'm hopeful that the 3rd one that you're missing is the one that we're trying to create.

Right. Is the one of 2 people.

All right. Like, I hope that that's what we're creating.

Yeah. So when I see those other 2 types of relationships, let's look at the one where both people are not making an effort. If that's the space you end up in, is that just a sign that you're just not right for each other because you've both lost enthusiasm, you've both lost energy? And you might as well move on.

I think it depends on the circumstance. Because think about it this way, my partner, I love him to the moon and back. He's a little bit more avoidant leaning. So he shuts down, he goes inwards, he just goes in his head. Doesn't make him a bad person. He just gets overwhelmed and he shuts down where I go outward. I wanna talk about it and I wanna communicate and let's go and let's understand this. It has taken us 3 and a half years for him to be able to not leave the room and to sit with me and have the conversations. Now he's the one sometimes will be like, come here, let's talk. I'm like, But that took us 3 and a half years of him being in therapy every week, doing hypnotherapy, like really working on himself to get one variable to work out in my favor that I needed. But everything else I was okay with 'cause I could grieve the things that I wasn't getting. I think what we have to look at and see is 80/20, right? If you're telling me that this person, you're bored with them, you don't like their personality, you don't have anything in common, you don't want the life with them, then at that point you're doing yourself a disservice.

Because I think we see it as, well, I love them. But love isn't enough. We know, we talked about this last time. Love, I wish it was enough. It never will be. It never has been. Proximity and timing matter so much more than love. Because if I'm not at the right place at the right time with you, I won't be able to receive you. And so I think it's also realistic that people outgrow each other. The person that maybe I got with, that this person has changed. Life happened to me. Maybe I lost something or I quit my job or something has happened. And I think we need to be realistic. My brother said this to me and it changed everything. If you're gonna break up with somebody, do you wanna be uncomfortable for the next 6 to 8 months, or do you wanna be uncomfortable for the rest of your life? Which one is longer for you? And that blew me away because a lot of us don't wanna deal with the discomfort of, oh, I don't wanna hurt them. And then we have to break up finances and now I have to go out and date.

I'll just stay where I'm at. But if you're okay to be uncomfortable for the rest of your life because this is what you're putting up with, that's your decision. You are making a choice. But if not, you might be uncomfortable for 6, 8, 12 months depending on the dynamic, but then you get to reclaim your life and show up for you, which Which one are you gonna choose?

And then in the other one where you have one person making lots of effort and the other person not making effort for a long time, what does that one look like?

That one to me looks like a waste of your time because if one person is running the relationship, resentment is going to breed. You're going to be exhausted. It's funny, I was at a women's group the other night and somebody said, she said, yeah, my partner and I are in therapy, but he refuses to go. He thinks it's stupid. He doesn't wanna waste his time. He puts me down. My friends won't even sleep over my house because he's so negative and screams at me, but I still love him. And I told her, and I said, listen, I'm gonna say this with love, but you carrying this relationship on your back doesn't make you a martyr and it doesn't make you empathetic. This makes you a doormat. You are waiting for the other person to choose you. Let me ask you, did that work with your parents? Did your dad one day decide to work on this family? No. Your father left and left you as kids. And so for a lot of us, we hope that if I explain this to you, if I tell you how much this hurts me, you'll change. You'll see, look, I'm bleeding.

You'll see I'm hurt. But for a lot of people, that requires them to be more in touch with their feelings, them to sit with things. So they'd rather just go, I don't wanna deal with this. It's hard enough getting through life. Do you now need to have somebody that's making your life harder because you are trying to grow and evolve and you're constantly dragging them on this journey? I would say be realistic on how much you actually think is gonna change. And if you're not okay living with that, then that's the choice. And I think you know it.

It's almost like saying, am I willing to be patient while someone changes if they even wanna change in the first place? place. Because I think that's the critical part of the recipe, where you can be patient, you can be understanding, you can make them feel seen, heard, and understood. But if they don't want to change, and if they don't choose to change, and if they don't take on a path to change, then what are you waiting for?

You know what's funny? I did a video the other day saying I feel bad for avoidance. Like, I, I have empathy for people that shut down and can't receive love. And you know how many comments I got saying, well, I've healed, I've done the work, they're To me, that just shows you actually haven't done even a quarter of the work. Because when you do the work on yourself, you're doing that for you so that you can identify if that's actually the right person to join you on this journey. Because that's why right person, wrong time is such a fallacy, because what makes them right is that they're in your life at the right time. If you and I, Jay, you and I are dating on this episode apparently. Let's say you and I were in a romantic thing. We break up. I go and do all this work on myself. You and I coming back together years later might mean that I'm not interested in you at all. I could start to say, oh, I hated that part of you and I didn't like this, and now I'm okay setting these boundaries and having that.

And so I think it's interesting how we romanticize this mess so that we can feel like, oh, but there's a reason I'm in it. We give ourselves meaning for being in this and feeling strong as if like, I'm martyring myself. Look, see, I'm making this work. When all we're doing is we're just kicking the can down the road because you're not gonna get these years back. I might get emotional when I say this, but my mom got sick 8 years ago and she went to the doctor with a headache and they found 6 brain aneurysms and 2 carotid arteries of the neck. And the whole time that she was in the hospital and she was going through her thing, I was texting and I was on my phone and I was trying to get guys to like me and I was doing everything I could to detach. And now 8 years later, she's struggling. You know, she's forgetting things. She's not as present. She really struggles to remember things. And I have to remind myself constantly that the choices I made then were because I was needing something. I can hold that truth, but I also need to accept that I'm missing out on time with her that I will never get back.

And so I think we all think that we have so much time and whatever, it's fine, I'll waste 5 years on this person. But I want you to look around and come up for air and look at the fact that you might never see your caregiver again. You might never see your sibling again. You might never have these moments again. And so what you waste with other people will inevitably catch up with you when you cannot go And now I don't have my phone when I'm with my mom. I am as present as I possibly can be because I know that one day she won't be here. And I don't want my memory to be me stuck down looking at a screen, hoping someone validates me instead of being present with the person that I love because those people don't earn my time, but this person deserves it. I'm so tired of seeing people waste their life hoping someone's going to change because at the end of the day, what makes you think it's appropriate to hope that they change? change. I don't think it's appropriate for me to want someone to change besides to elevate and to grow in the ways that I am.

But if I wanna fundamentally change you, then that means I don't actually love you for who you are. I love you for the version I need you to become. And that's a really dangerous place.

Even if that person needs to grow?

It's not your job. I'm not your therapist. I'm not your coach. If you need to grow, I can tell you and I can say, hey baby, I think that there's something that we need. But if you're gonna lash out or dismiss me or say, of course you wanna talk about therapy 'cause you then that person's telling you, right? Like, I know that I love my dad and I hope with every bone in my body that he reads this book and sees a window into my world and maybe wants to have a conversation. But I know that he needs to do a lot of work on himself, but that's not my job to make it happen. But you know what it was? It was my job to say, but this doesn't work for me and I need to set boundaries so that I can show up sustainably if we're going to have a relationship. That's all I can have control over.

Hmm.

So yeah, there's a lot of people that need to change. I see it, you see it, we all see it. But all I can do is lovingly tell them, right? Like, this book will change your life. But it's only if you do the work, Nan. It's not just by reading it and intellectualizing it. It's by implementing it and facing the demons and going from the depths of hell and back to say, I know myself, I found myself, I saved myself. And that takes a lot of courage. Anyone who's doing that, I take my hat— chapeau, chapeau. I take my hat off to you because you are choosing to better yourself and to become the light. Because so many of us dim our lights because we're scared of taking up space. And I am so proud of everyone that makes it brighter 'cause we get to shine the way in a very dark time. Lust auf einfach guten Kaffee, wann immer du willst? Bekommst du mit den Qubo-Kapselmaschinen von Tchibo. Denn das ist Kaffee in seiner besten Form. Qubo verbindet ausgewählte Kaffees aus besonderen Anbaugebieten mit innovativer PressBrew-Technologie für vollmundigen Geschmack und samtige Crema. Ob Espresso, Kaffee Crema oder Café Grande, du hast die Wahl.

Qubo liefert Kaffeevielfalt auf Knopfdruck mit Gelinggarantie. When we don't know where it's going.

Yeah. We've mentioned these terms and you talk about this in the book. And I was saying to you before we started that I'm so glad that you do, because I believe if we understand this, we could solve 70 to 80% of our relationship issues. Why are anxious and avoidant people often so attracted to each other?

Anxious and avoidant people need each other. So anxious people are also avoidant and avoidant people are also anxious.

Ah, tell me.

So anxious people are avoidant in the sense because everything is, you validate me, you tell me that you're gonna love me, you give me reassurance. Why aren't you answering me? So they avoid dealing with what's coming up for them because if they actually sat with it, they'd say, that person's limited, right? I can hold 2 conflicting thoughts. I don't think they're doing this intentionally. And we're able to say, well, avoidants are bad people. They just don't care. Why? Because our brain wants to close the loop, right? We want a quick answer, a quick answer of, oh, that's That's it? Great. I don't have to take more energy to try to understand their perspective. Avoidant people are beyond anxious. They shut down because their nervous system says this isn't safe. That's why I say my heart goes out to avoidant people who feel like being themselves is scary, who feel like having emotions is not a safe thing to do. And my heart goes out to anxious people who feel like they can't be themselves without someone telling them they're okay. Anxious people like avoidant people because when they meet them, they're like, oh, you're more stoic.

Ooh, you have high sense of self. You're really confident. You can be a And the avoidant person sees the anxious one and says, oh my God, I love it. Look how warm you are. And you're so pers— you have this big personality. And then they start to trigger each other. The avoidant person pulls away. The anxious person wants more. Wait, wait, where are you going? Come back. The avoidant person starts to feel suffocated. They always come back is the silliest term. Do you wanna know why avoidant people come back? Because they have space from the stimulus.

Hmm.

So when they're with you, they're triggered. They go, oh no, I can't do this. They think you are the problem. So they run away. run away. Then they go and date someone else, and then that person triggers them. But then you have space. So now they're going, you know what? Maybe she wasn't so bad, or maybe he wasn't that bad. Then they go back and they come back going, oh, you're right. You know, it wasn't you. It was them. And then they get triggered again because the avoidant person feels uncomfortable sitting with emotion, so they just wanna hop out. And the anxious person is so uncomfortable being in their own skin that they just want someone else to tell them that they'll be okay. That's why they both need each other.

It's the same hyper-independence and hyper-codependence, same side of just the other side So if an anxious and an avoidant person end up together, which is the most likely pairing I think that we're gonna see in the world, if that ends up happening, what should you both be aware of in order to grow together rather than grow apart?

I think the most beautiful way that you can love somebody is to understand how they need to be loved. So if for me, I can go on my loops and I start to get on my ADHD spiral, and my partner knows me well enough to where he used to shut down and completely leave me on this island, and I'd say, my God, I'm struggling. you. And so now he knows that it's not personal, right? Like, he sits there and he's like, I know this isn't about me. She's having her experience. And he'll say, what can I do for you? Do you want me to just listen? Great. I can just listen. And then vice versa, when I see him shut down and I'll say, hey, are you present? And he's like, I'm offline. I say, you know what? Talk to me in 20. And then all of a sudden he'll come back and he's like, I'm good. Everything's fine. Sorry, I was just processing something in my head. That's my aspect here. Both people need to be doing the work because if I were just spraying and praying, right? Protest behavior. Examples of that could be silent treatment, right?

Or, you know, I'm done. I don't wanna do this anymore. Hoping that you'll go, no, no, I'm here. Let me fix this. Protest behavior could be texting 1,000 times. It's just you're doing everything you can to reconnect. If I'm engaging in that, meanwhile, the other person's shutting down and retreating, we're just gonna constantly get into a cycle and it's a bandaid that you keep putting on. What the anxious person needs to learn is space is not the enemy, that you're allowed to take 20 minutes, go for a walk, come back and say, Hey, I realized I think I overreacted there. What you said wasn't that bad. Or, this is what I realized, and I actually hated the way you said that. The avoidant person has to learn to sit in the moment and in the mess to say, this isn't a threat to who I am. I'm not a failure because this person's upset with me. Because that's really the crux of it. The avoidant person is terrified of being rejected for who they are. The anxious person is terrified for being loved for who they are. Because the anxious person thinks that there's a problem with me, and so I just need to get someone to love me for who I am.

But really they have a fear of true intimacy because that's why a A lot of anxious people are also emotionally unavailable. They think that they're talking about emotions, but constantly talking doesn't mean you're necessarily communicating. And so by just saying, well, but you did this and you did this and you did this, when do you stop to say, and here's how I felt and here's how it impacted me and here's what I need from you. Can you do that? Because if the other person says, no, I can't, you have a choice. And when we get into the anxious avoidant dynamic, we go back to being kids because we think we don't have a choice. And the best news I can give is you will never be 7 years old again, ever. So now you get to take up space. And if that means you lose that person, what are you losing?

The funny thing is, I think most people, when they see attachment theory, you go, okay, I could be avoidant, anxious, or secure. And we go, I'm secure. There's a funny study that says only 2% of the world's population can multitask. But when everyone hears that, they think they're part of the 2%. But that's how we do it. So I feel like whenever anyone looks at secure attachment, avoidant, unless you're really honest with yourself, yourself, you go, oh no, I'm secure. I don't, I'm good. I don't need anything. And mostly when you say I don't need anything means you're probably avoidant. And then the person who's saying I don't need anything but really needs validation is probably anxious. And so I guess the first step is awareness with your partner, with the person you're potentially dating. How do you have that conversation with someone?

It's funny you bring that up. My least favorite question to ask on a date, people do it all the time. What's your attachment style? First of all, people are terrible at self-identifying. To your point, like dating apps, when you're like, I'm looking for someone healthy and confident and secure. Obviously. Most people are like, oh yeah, that's me. And then they're not. So I would say what we're looking at is I want you to notice patterns of behavior before you try to diagnose them or yourself, because attachment styles are also fluid. You can pendulum and swing. So there's anxious, avoidant, disorganized, and secure. People think disorganized means you're both. It's not. It's the amalgamation of the trauma in the attachment. Come here, go away, right? We've all met that person that you're like, are you bipolar? Like, why are you so hot and cold? That's that disorganized. Low sense of self, low sense of others. So it's, I want you, but you're terrifying to me. I want you, but this Ah, interesting.

I didn't know about that one.

Mm-hmm. Prevalent of homes of abuse, alcoholism, where their caregiver was their source of fear and love. So you have both. The anxious is low sense of self, high sense of others. As an anxious, when you're a child, you regulated when someone came back to get you, right? The story I talk about in the book is when I cry, cried, cried as a kid, I would throw up. My mom would come in. I learned that I had to learn helplessness. I had to perform to get someone to come in and get me. And then the avoidant The anxious is, this doesn't matter. No one's coming. I can only rely on myself. High sense of self, low sense of others. So they understand independence, but not interdependence. Anxious people understand interdependence, but not independence. And then the disorganized doesn't really wanna take either. I think the first step is looking at the patterns of behavior. I don't want anyone to use attachment theory to diagnose their partner. You can say there are behaviors like, hey, this feels very avoidant. Are you trying to avoid the conversation? Do you feel uncomfortable? A question I ask my partner all the time is, what did you hear me Hmm.

Because he'll say, I heard you say that like, I don't do anything right. And I'm like, fair. I apologize if that's how it came off. Can I share with you exactly what I meant? So that I can understand his perspective. It doesn't mean that I have to give up mine, but it means that I can understand. Do not ask somebody what their attachment style is on a date. Most people are not gonna be honest. Or if they go, yeah, I'm avoidant, you're gonna be like, oh boy. And then you're hypervigilant and you're constantly scanning, you're waiting for them to disappoint you. And at that point, you're no longer trying to connect with them. You're trying to get them to choose you. you, and we've totally lost the plot.

Tell me the difference between seeking connection and testing someone so that they choose you.

Seeking connection is that no matter what, I'm gonna be authentically myself. And if we jive, great, right? If my freak flag flies and so does yours, awesome, because I'm curious, I'm understanding you, and I'm gonna just be myself and hope that this works. When you're trying to get someone to choose you or trying to understand, you are playing a chess game and you're constantly looking at everything that you're no longer actually in the moment. You're not present. You're trying so hard to see, but are they gonna like me? Will they ask me out again? That you're either future tripping or you're stuck in the past of, oh, but this is what my ex said, and I don't think that this person means it. Where I think that's a big disconnection point. We're on our phones so much at this point. I mean, I don't think any of us can overlook the impacts that cell phones have had, that Gen Z is the first generation to not outperform mentally the generation before, right? This is the first time this has ever happened in history because we're not activating the prefrontal cortex. We're using ChatGPT. We have so much access to information, and yet we know So we can't overlook the fact, like, dating apps have changed things, right?

I'm not gonna Pollyanna and be like, what? It's still 1950. But we are so stuck in everything is like Amazon. I want it at my door when I want it, how I want it. We look at the menu of a restaurant before we go because we don't wanna be stuck in the unknown because we're so scared of being uncomfortable.

I do that all the time.

Right? Same with, I'm like, even Ryan, he's like, we can't just go and see. I'm like, no, but what if we waste time? What if they don't have what I like? And it's because there's that moment of, but I need to have control of this and then I will feel okay. Whereas I feel like sometimes when I put my phone down and I'm out for 3 hours and I'm like, oh, I forgot that the world existed. 'Cause I stopped to look at the trees and smell some air. And I want people to be able to go out and actually identify, do I like you and how I feel with you? Not, do you want me? And do you pick me?

Hmm.

Whether you're married, in a relationship, you're dating, I don't care. It runs the gamut because we're trying so hard to be validated. But do you love yourself? Do you appreciate the version of you that's showing up? If the answer is no, then like my mom always said, what if I told you in 6 to 8 months that you were gonna meet the love of your life? You wouldn't have to worry about a thing. How would you start to act today? And I was like, I wouldn't care. I wouldn't give a shit about these people. And I was like, ah, I see what you're doing. Because if I know in my gut that it's out there for me, then I'm not gonna waste my time, right? I'm not gonna go for the job that's $20K. But if I'm scared that every rock I turn has to be the one, I'm so focused on if you're going to like me that I've stopped to even ask if I wanna be And if I'm enjoying this, and that's something, what makes a relationship healthy is that, you know, it can end at any moment because every single day you are making a choice to be with each other.

Every day, you and Roddy, you choose each other every moment. And if she came to you and said, babe, I'm sorry, that's it, I'm done. Okay, let's have a conversation about it and we move on with our life. That's what makes it healthy. Codependency is I need you in my life. Healthy is I want you in my life and I'm creating a space, but if you don't earn that place, I'm not gonna give it to you. keep you. And it's such an empowering place to be, 'cause then you're like, I'm gonna go to bed and have just me at the end of the day. And if you're gonna add to my stress, no thanks.

As I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, I hope everyone is taking notes because everything that's coming out of your mouth, I'm blown away. And second of all, I hope everyone's ordering the book right now because honestly, when I hear you speak and break these really complex things down into really simple ideas, you do it phenomenally in the book as well. And it's just translating these ideas into our real life. Because I think what happens is we get carried away with the emotions, with the feelings, with the attraction, with whatever else it may be that captivates us. And you stop realizing that these systems are deeply embedded under every interaction possible. This is the system. This is what's going on. And you can ignore it because you think the other person has an amazing job or amazing background or looks incredible, or you guys will look good together, but this is the system that's gonna define whether you'll work or not. What's the difference between a relationship that's truly peaceful and one that just doesn't have any chemistry?

The reason people say healthy equals boring is because it doesn't trigger your nervous system. So we talk about the trauma tingles, right? That's just blood rushing to your phalanges so that you'll run, but they're hot, so you run towards them. But if they were a creep, you would be running the other way if you felt this. We mistake that this feeling must mean that they're the right one for me when oftentimes that's just familiar, right? Maybe they're really much like your dad or your mom, or they remind you of your kindergarten teacher that was really mean to you.

And I think we think being someone being like your mom or your dad means they do exactly the same thing in the same way. And that's not true. It's a feeling.

It's a feeling of, wow, that made me feel really small when I just said that to you. It doesn't mean you spoke like my dad did, but oh, I hate the way I feel with you, or I feel judged, or oh wow, okay, thanks for putting me down, right? Maybe my dad didn't put me down, but he made fun of something. And so we're trying to understand like, where do I feel it in my body? What's coming So that's the, like, it's chemistry, right? Chemistry does not mean compatibility. Chemistry means you might have great sex, right? You could have a great time that night. You guys might make really beautiful looking kids, but that doesn't mean that you have morals, ethos, and ethics that align. Whereas, right? So healthy, the reason we say healthy equals boring, you're not triggered, you're not activated. And like, I'll give you an example with me and Ryan, when he liked me, so slept together on the first date, he called me the next day and he said he wanted to see me. And my first response was, And the response was, why? But you shouldn't wanna see me. I didn't earn it.

I don't have to work at this. Like, this is easy. So then you must not have value. So let's talk neuroscience for a quick second. When you have something that you perceive as valuable, I'm not talking like high-value man and woman, I'm talking actual value, and then there's inconsistency, we create novelty. And so of course, if I told you, Jay, this is the only copy of the book in the world, you can only have this, you'd probably be like, oh my God, I want one. But if I was like, oh, you can get it at any store for 3 cents, nah, I don't know if I want it that bad. When something is given freely to us and we have core beliefs that believe, I'm not deserving, I'm not worthy, why do you like me? Then what does that do? The reason we go, ah, no thank you, and find an ick is because then I have to go, maybe there was never anything wrong with me. Maybe someone just taught me that somewhere younger in my life. But that takes a lot of bandwidth versus, I'm bored, right? You're not funny. You don't— I'm not interested.

I don't have any curiosity. You're just there. And I don't want anyone to do charity work. You don't have to be the person 'cause they're nice. I still want you to feel excited and happy when you're with this person and say like, we have a good time, we get through life together. But there's a difference between I need to feel intensity. What happens when the feeling fades? Who are you stuck with? Who are you left with? Somebody that has no bandwidth, somebody that walks out when you get sad, somebody that doesn't think that you having an opinion matters. Great. So that you had a good time on your first date. What else do they have?

When you first start dating someone, what are the healthy signs to look out for? And what are the things that are just distractions?

The distractions, I'll go there first. Oh, they're really good looking. They have a good job. They're fun. They have a lot of friends, right? Usually when I ask clients, like, so what do you like about this person? That's where they'll go of like, oh, well, they're really cool and they're fun and all. Then if they say, oh, I feel really safe with them. And I say, could you give me an example? Well, I felt safe in the beginning, but now they're starting to be inconsistent. It's like, so then you didn't feel safe. It's a pattern of behavior is what we're looking for. What I want you to start to look out for, especially early, is, can I say no to this person? What happens when I say no and set a boundary and go, no, I don't wanna do that? Do they get mad at me? Do they push me? Do they pressure me? Or do they respect that? We gotta take up space. Please stop listening to anybody on the internet that is telling you to not talk about politics or religion or kids or marriage on a first date. Doesn't mean you need to get into a debate, but if it's a non-negotiable for me, if I am, as a 36-year-old woman, if I were out dating and I knew I wanted kids 100%, it's It's not— you think I'm gonna wait 4 months to ask you if you want to have kids and then find out that you don't?

So I think we need to sit with ourselves. What are your non-negotiables that you must know? And then the other aspect here is we need to see words and actions align. Actions are not louder than words. They need to align because that's how you create safety and trust. And the one part that people are not gonna like, it takes time to get to know somebody. Yeah.

It does.

And that's why we wanna say first date, just to see if you wanna have a second date. Second date, just to see if you wanna have a third. We go slow. nervous system acclimate to this of a new person? 'Cause my mom always says, when you start at 100, where else are you gonna go? They come in and they love bomb and they text you good morning every morning, and it's the grandiose gifts and let's go to this beautiful dinner and all this. But then the second you tell them, hey, that didn't work for me, and all of a sudden you start to see them shift and pull away, that's because it was performative. They were doing that because it made them feel good to get you, but it wasn't actually about you. I know you're amazing. You know you're amazing. How do you want this person to know that you were all of these things after spending 5 minutes with you. It's not realistic, but there's a little kid in there that really just wants to be seen. And we mistake intensity. Intensity is not intentional. Just because you're getting attention doesn't mean you're getting intention.

It doesn't mean that that person actually wants the same things that you do in life. That's what we wanna find out because then you're saving yourself time if they don't.

Yeah. And they may say the right thing, but they may not do the right thing and follow And so I think that alignment is so crucial because you could sit opposite someone and they tell you that they have all the values that you've ever wanted. And the next thing you know, they're not living those values at all.

Ugh, I hear that all the time of like, but this person told me that they want a relationship on the first date and now they're telling me they don't feel it. Well, yeah, just because they want a relationship doesn't mean that they want one with you in the way you want a relationship. I remember going on a date with a guy who told me his dream relationship is getting married and living in 2 separate houses. separate homes. And in my head I'm like, I, I don't want that. I wanna live with my partner.

Like, Yeah.

I'm okay with separate bedrooms, that's fine, but I don't want a separate house. I don't wanna live so autonomously. He ended up getting a girlfriend 2 years later. They're happy as a clam, right? That doesn't take away from my worth. That doesn't take away from who I am. But I'm so grateful on the first date we had that conversation so that I could say no thank you. He wanted to travel the world and live like a nomad. I am too anxious for that. I like my routine. I like to be home. That doesn't make anybody bad. And I think that we see it now as like, well, I have to get them to want what I want because I perceived that they are what I want, but we're not actually allowing people to show up as themselves. 'Cause I wouldn't want someone to change me, would you? Not after a first date.

I wouldn't be the good parts of myself if I wasn't allowed to be some of the other parts of myself.

Yeah.

This episode is brought to you by State Farm. We spend so much energy becoming the best version of ourselves, building better habits, showing up more fully, embracing mindfulness. But sometimes the most purposeful thing you can do is just handle the thing you've been been putting off. If getting your insurance sorted has been living on that list, State Farm is there to help you choose the coverage that's right for you. Go online at statefarm.com or use the easily accessible app to get help from one of their over 19,000 local agents. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. How do we finally stop taking things personally and letting other people's choices define our worth?

When we're taking things personal, the first thing I want you to do is put space between the stimulus and your reaction, because in that You can respond. Somebody says something to you and you're saying, oh, you just, it's because you don't like me. I want you to stop and say, okay, what facts do I have to back this up? What was the actual thing that happened? They said no to me to going to dinner. What is the story that I added? That they said no because they don't like me and they think I'm stupid and they don't want anything to do with me. Do I have anything to back that up? No. Okay, well, where did I learn that from? How old do I feel when I say things like, you just don't like me, do you? I sound like a 5-year-old, don't I? That reminds me of being at lunch and this, at a kid and hoping that somebody was gonna come pick me to play basketball or to go to play recess. Then we can stop and say, okay, I don't think this is personal. What's in my control? Right? So it's even like a date.

Let's say you have a date planned and the person cancels on you the night before and says, I'm so sorry, I can't go. You could of course be like, I knew it. It's because I did all of these things. But if you don't have anything to factually back that up, your only response is, thank you for letting me know.

Hmm.

And then it's showing up for you and saying, okay, in this moment, I felt really dismissed and I feel really small. I liked this person. Okay, what did I like about them? Oh, that's a good question. I actually don't really know 'cause I didn't know them. Right? That's what I mean by sitting with it. It takes 2 minutes, 90 seconds for an emotion to run its course. It's Jill Bolte Taylor, neuroscientist. But the problem is every time we have a thought, it starts the clock again. So I challenge everybody to set your clock for 3 minutes. Give yourself some buffer time to kind of get into it. Close your eyes, focus on the sensation. And so if the sensation is, it's in my chest, oh my God, okay, what does it feel like? It's like a black spiky ball and I feel like it's gonna rip through my chest. Okay, sit with it. If I took the ball and bounced it, what would happen? Every person, 100% of them, 100% right now, that I do this with in my practice says, oh wow, it doesn't feel as intense actually. They're like, wow, that feels a lot better.

Because what happens is we get flooded and you go right into your amygdala, which is your fear center. When we pause and we take that 1-minute pause, we allow all the neurotransmitters and all the chemicals to relax in our body. And then I can turn the prefrontal cortex on and start to challenge the thoughts and be with them. Taking things personal, I used to be the queen of it. Oh, you cut me off. I'd be like, 'cause you're a dick, right? Like somebody cuts you off in traffic and you're like, man, I can't stand that person. And you look, you're like, oh, they're like 100 years old and they can't see. Because we fill in the blanks with our core beliefs of how we project. We project onto other people how we feel about ourselves. And that's where I wanna stop and say, what facts do I have to back this up? And then understand how old I feel and then start to do the work from there.

Yeah. And sometimes you can even back it up with positive things.

100%.

Right? You can make excuses for people's bad behavior with positive stories because you are one of the people that looks at life that way.

If you're a glass half full instead of a half empty, oh, I wish. For some of us, we struggle with that. And the biggest thing is when you take it personal is also not shaming yourself for it. That's the biggest thing because I've had that where I'll email someone and you're like, they didn't answer me. I knew it. They didn't like me. You create this whole narrative to reaffirm your core beliefs that you're not good enough. That's why. See, they figured it out. I knew they were gonna get it. And then they email you, I'm so sorry, your email went into spam. And you're like, just kidding.

Yeah.

But what that is, is it's also called a corrective experience. To your nervous system, you go, hey, you see that thing that we thought was a threat and it wasn't? So next time that happens, let's give it a minute because we might— now maybe I'm right, right? Maybe that person ghosts me and I never hear from them. That's happened. But maybe there is an alternative reaction here that, or response, that doesn't have to mean anything about me. If you take it personal and it means something about your worth, that's when I want you to start to do the work because this has nothing to do with the actual situation. You're now projecting how you feel about yourself onto this other person.

I feel like that's at the core of so many relationship issues, just not taking everything personally, especially like you said, even if someone's next relationship works out, that feels like the worst.

Well, think about the narrative, the story. Ask anybody, anyone going through a breakup, start to ask them, what do you miss about this person? Really? What do you miss? And they'll say, I miss, you know, how I felt with them. And then you start to realize, you're like, you don't actually miss them as a person. You miss what it gave you. You miss the fantasy, the version, the reality that you created. You miss having someone there. You miss the perception of safety. But very rarely is it actually about the person, 'cause if it was about the person, then if they were that healthy and secure, then you probably wouldn't be this disheveled about them because you would've had a real conversation. You'd understand it.

What do we do when emotional intimacy moves faster than behavioral consistency?

That's when, hey, I think you're really amazing, but this is moving really fast for me. Do you think we can slow down the pace because I'm not there yet? That one boundary that you set of, hey, I'm not there, is what will change the game. Because if that person's authentic and they say, oh, you know what? I totally understand. You're right. I think I just got a little too gun-shy and excited. What does going slow look like to you? And you have a conversation versus, what, you don't like me? Once somebody gets defensive, you're like, so this is no longer about me. And again, an example I have is when Ryan and I first met, I said, I miss you, after like 3 or 4 dates. And he went, thank you. And I said, was that not well received? He said, no, absolutely it was. But in full transparency, I don't move that quick. It takes me a little bit longer to miss somebody. So thank you so much. I can't wait to see you on our date. I just don't work at that pace. And then I remember like 2 months later he texted me, I miss you.

And I was like, oh, did we make it? And he was like, I told you it would take me a minute. And yes, I didn't judge him. I didn't get mad at him. I said, oh, thank you so much. Now I know that I'm moving a little faster than you are, so let me just kind of align and See where we kind of move. Because your nervous system is gonna get really overwhelmed. And then what happens? You attach, you latch, and then when you don't have it, you're going through withdrawal. Dopamine. Dopamine is received in anticipation of. So when someone sets a bar of like intensity, right? All the love bombing, the doting, and then you're amazing and you're all of these things. But then, right? It's like the texting every day. They text you all day, morning to night. They make all these future plans, but then you see them once a month. The math doesn't math. It's that this is incongruent. That's where novelty comes in. 'Cause you're going, no, no, no, this I have to have. Because you, than have to be left with the weight of disappointment on the other side of it and disappointment in yourself that you allowed it.

Why do we want people who don't want us?

We want people that don't want us because there's a part of us that is hoping that if we can get them to like us, that'll heal every wound that we've ever had.

Oh, so true.

If I can get you to like me, then see, look, my dad was wrong. I'm not too much. I'm not all of these things. More often than not, we obsess over people that don't make us feel safe because we have put them on a pedestal that is so much better than who they actually are because we're not seeing them for who they are. If we were, that would mean I'd be a choice. And when I go back to feeling like a little kid who is never good enough, making a choice is threatening and scary to me. And so we obsess over people, limerence, right? Becoming this obsessive with people because we create a fantasy and that releases dopamine. Every time you're waiting for a text, what's gonna happen? Hope. Hope is a dangerous drug because hope keeps you stuck. Instead, what I want us to do is accept it and sit in the weight of, I don't think this person likes me. And then And be okay disappointing people. Yeah, no, I did. But we can't disappoint people if we're not allowing ourselves to disappoint. And so if you attack yourself every time someone rejects you or says, hey, I think you're really lovely, I'm just not interested in this connection.

And then you start saying, I knew it. I'm so stupid. God, what is wrong with me? Why did I do this again? That right there, you're replicating everything that happened to you in childhood. So instead, that really hurts and I'm gonna validate it. And I feel really dismissed and I feel small and I really liked them and I respect what they said and I appreciate their honesty. Because they're right there, you're telling your little, you're allowed to be sad. I validate that, but I also don't need to make this mean anything about me. But oftentimes we're scared to disappoint other people because what happens? We look like a bad person and nobody wants to be a bad person.

I see that with so many people who say, I would've walked away a long time ago. I just didn't wanna upset them. And I'm saying to them, but aren't you just upsetting them more by spending more time with them and then eventually getting to the same conclusion. How do we deal with that? There are so many people out there who say to me, I just can't break up. I can't let go because I feel like the bad person.

When I hear that, my response to them is, great. Just know you're making a choice. That's a choice you're making. You're allowed to. In my career, the last thing, I always tell people, I'm like, I'm never going to tell you what to do. That's not my job. I'm here to empower you to make a decision. My mama has always said, when you were sick and tired of being sick and tired to go make a change. And that was me. I was with my ex, the one in the book. Oh my God, it was terrible. It was terrible. It was terrible. Everybody was telling me to walk away and I didn't because I hadn't gotten to that point yet. But what I would tell them is, okay, if you are not ready to walk away, that's fine. Is what you're getting enough to grieve what you're not then?

Yeah.

If you're okay to stay in this, that's fine. But who do you wanna be? Who are you perceiving you're a bad person to? Is it them? Or do you not want your parents or your caregivers or somebody else in your life to think that you're a bad person because I don't think it's about them. Because if you're doing this, it's actually not for them. That's for you. 'Cause you don't wanna be perceived as that.

How do you move on from a situationship without thinking they're the one that got away?

You start to make them a real person and take the shine off of them. They're the one that got away from what? The fact that they didn't want a commitment. They didn't want a relationship with you. They weren't intentional. This person was wasting your time. You were constantly begging them to see you. You were the one texting first. You were the one bringing this along. When you opened your mouth, suddenly they didn't want That's where I would have to say, take the shine off of them and make them a real person. They're not the love of your life. They're not the one that you missed out. This is somebody that dysregulated your nervous system and kept you on a loop. Once we shift the narrative, we can say, they are a person that I liked and I acknowledged that I was into them. Start to extrapolate, but this is what I'm looking for in a partner. They didn't align with that. We have to really go back to taking the shine off of people because we put them on this pedestal that they They didn't ask for. Nobody asked for it, but yet we put them there.

And situationships, this is the harshest reality of them. One person in the situationship is benefiting from the fact that the other one's silent, and the other one has such low self-esteem that they're not willing to take up space. Which one are you? And if you're gonna look at me and say, yikes, I'm the one that doesn't love myself enough to take up space, then that's where the work starts because you are also not emotionally available if you consistently go after people who are not. Because that's what I meant by anxious people are avoidant as well. They avoid dealing with what's coming up. Because if I say, oh man, this person's not right for me, that means I have to do something about it. And it's easier to go, no, no, I didn't see that, than to go, oh shit, I saw it. Now I have to make a choice.

Wow. I never thought about it like that.

That's why for so many of us, making choices feels scary because it's, I'm an adult now and I get to do that. And for the rest of development, a lot of us are still stuck in the past years without It's not conscious.

It's funny because we don't like it when someone makes the choice to not be with us, but we don't want to make that choice even if they're not right for us.

I will say being dumped sucks. Dumping someone sucks too. I hate it. When I was dating, I hated the guys that would be like, hey, I haven't heard from you. I'm assuming you're not interested. And you're like, I'm sorry, I think you're really lovely, but I'm just not interested. And you're like, oh. And they say, okay, thank you for letting me know. I'm like, I'm like, oh, you're welcome. Because we almost think that I'm gonna disappoint so many people. And it's like, that's where I have to be like, don't be so arrogant. You're not gonna ruin, right? You're not gonna ruin someone's life. It's actually the kind— as Brené Brown says, honesty is kindness. It's the kindest thing that you could do is let them go. Because just because you don't like them doesn't mean that there is not somebody out there begging the universe for someone like that, right? There is gonna be someone out there that is so grateful that the last person fucked it up with you because now they get what they've always been dreaming of. So instead of taking up space, open the door for them and let them go so that the right person can finally walk in and acknowledge the gem that you are and not this rough stone that this other person is convincing you that you need to polish to become.

It's incredible that we believe love to be special and rare, but when it's special and rare to find, we get mad at it. It's almost like you're waiting for the next person to be the one, but you know that there's only a few people that you could potentially ever have that connection connection with, yet you're hoping that every single person you've run into will suddenly turn into that person. It's so fascinating, this paradox of, I know love is rare, but I want it to be common.

You know what's funny too? As you start to heal, you realize how lonely it is. Because when I was in my dysfunction, oh, I had 1,000 guys in my phone book. But then people heal and they go, okay, I've healed, but where is it? And it's like, no, no, no, no, you healed for you. You don't get a guarantee that when you heal, there this person is. But what you did is you're now gonna away quicker. You're not gonna waste your time. You're gonna be okay being alone. You're gonna have love for yourself in a way that says, I want you in my life, but I don't need you in my life. And so I'm gonna make choices that align with that. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's not gonna be very lonely because then you start to realize how many people don't wanna do the work because it's painful.

Yeah.

Right? Writing this book, I cried so many chapters, especially the first chapter talking about my brother and a lot of the family dynamics. Every time I read And that's why most people don't wanna do this is because it's really hard to go back to the place that you thought your entire life to get out of.

That's really true.

It's heavy.

Yeah. You've been trying to get away from it biologically, physically, mentally, emotionally, and then you actually have to revisit it in order to move forward again.

And sit with it. I think my sister once said, she's like, why do we have to live in the past? And I was like, see, that shows me that we're not doing it right. This isn't about sitting in the past and lamenting and constantly bringing it up. But my brother and I, we had the biggest fight moment. So in the book, my brother was sent away when I was a kid and we for years didn't talk about it. It was just, he came back in my 20s and that was it. Your brother's back and there it is. And we had this huge fight and we didn't talk for like 2 years. And about 5 or 6 months ago, not even, he came over and he looked at me and he just screamed, when are you going to let me free? I'm sorry I abandoned you. When are you gonna let When will you let this go? And I looked at him and I said, you know when I will? When you finally let me share that it's not because you left me and that's not why I'm mad. I've never been mad that you left me.

It wasn't your choice. You were a kid. I'm like, you know why I was mad? You never came back for me. You never tried to know where I was and what I was experiencing. And we both cried and hugged each other. And I don't have to talk about this with him anymore. We are so close now. He just had a baby and I'm there all the time and we feel so connected with each We're doing work together as a filmmaker. And so we get to collaborate and do the things I've always wanted, the big brother I always had. But I had the big brother that was mean to me, right? In the '90s, it was fun to put your sister down. And then we never got to have that experience of coming back together. He left and he was gone for 4 years. So the only other man in my life had left me. No wonder I was constantly hoping people would come back and get me. And that is those moments where you have to say, I had to stand up for Sab and say, no, no, this is why I'm here. I'm upset, and now we can move on from it.

And we hugged and we cried and we did it, and it freed us both.

That's so beautiful. I'm so happy for you.

Thank you. It doesn't happen with every family member, and that has to be the part that you gotta be okay with.

Yes.

But when you can have these moments, this isn't about living in the past. It's about understanding the past so you can have a different future.

Do you think it's possible that if someone doesn't heal that relationship, with a family member in the past that they can't have a positive, healthy romantic relationship in the future?

The only way I think it's not possible is if you don't internally deal with it, right? So like, I'm not gonna, my dad's not talking to me. This is, that's not an option. I don't need him to validate my experience for me to know what I went through. And I think that's the culprit here because for a long time, like I haven't actually, haven't shared this story outside of the book and you're the first person I'm gonna share it with is that I almost got kidnapped when I was 7. And when I came in to tell my parents, like, I had just saved my life. I literally like got away from this and went home. And when I told my parents, my mom said, that's a dream. And my dad said, go back to bed and leave me alone. So I'm thinking this whole time, I make things up, right? This didn't happen. I can't trust myself. I don't need my mom or dad to tell me what happened. I needed to go back and say, I am so proud. You saved my life. I'm so proud of you. I am so sorry I dismissed you and discredited you this whole time.

That right there is enough to heal you versus begging my dad to be like, you're right, I messed up. I shouldn't have done that. He's not going to, and that's okay. That's his perception and I have mine. But this isn't about other people. This is about you coming home to you, you validating your experience and saying, that wasn't okay. What I experienced wasn't okay. I don't hate you. I love you, but I'm not gonna pretend anymore that what we went through was normal. That's healing.

How do you do that? How do you let go of that approval and validation that you so desperately want from this person that has never given it to you?

You have to find ways to give it to yourself. Maybe that means meditating and seeing your little— at the house that you always were abandoned at, and going back and saying, I'm here to save you. What do you need from me? How can I support you? What are you trying to tell me? You're angry at me? That's fair. I can understand why you'd be mad at me. I haven't been exactly the nicest person to you. Healing, we have this fallacy that it has to be these big moments, but actually it's in the very small micro moments of saying, wow, I didn't text that person back. I went for a walk instead. Huh, I made a different choice. I personally, I go to acupuncture every week and I cry. I do. I see my little, I connect with her. I hear what she's going through because we see it as, I wanna get rid of it. How often do you hear, I wanna fix this? There's nothing broken. You're not broken. There's nothing to fix. What I wanna do is I wanna understand her. I wanna get curious about my experiences. I wanna You want to learn, oh, that's what you could— that's the perception you had.

Oh my God, that makes so much sense. No wonder I think that. Because when you do that, all of a sudden you'll feel your chest will soften and your shoulders relax. And you're like, thanks, I just needed to be validated. And something so simple.

Yeah. We've talked a lot about doing the work, therapy, but you also say that you can use therapy language to avoid accountability. How do we do that and how do we stop?

Have you ever heard someone go, well, that's just my boundary. That's how I am. No, you triggered me. They're using therapy to avoid accountability. And so what we wanna say is, okay, what else is coming after that? If the sentence is, hey, can I share something with you? Asking consent from this person. Yeah, what's going on? When you said this, I felt really dismissed. I got— using I statements. Here's how I felt. Here's why I was impacted, and here's what I need from you. That is somebody that's saying, hey, when you said no to me, I felt really small. That reminded me of my dad. Moving forward, I'm kindly asking, is this a possibility that you'd be able to say, why you don't wanna do this. Of course, babe, you got it. Thank you so much. For a lot of people, they use therapy talk to just try to deflect and put it back onto you. Well, I set a boundary and you're not respecting it. And it's like, could you share with me what that boundary is? Because it started with you. And so that's not actually a boundary. For some of those people, you might not get past it, right?

For narcissistic people that like to use, and that's why we have to be very careful the information we share with people.

Yeah.

When you're on a first date and you're Trauma dumping. What is that person doing? They're calculating. That's their insecurity. This is where they're starting to map out how they can then revolve and manipulate so that they become the center of your universe. So you have to be very careful 'cause then they come back and go, no wonder your dad used to do that. And you're like, wait, what did you just say to me? Oh my God, wait, maybe that is why. My ex used to use the, one of us loves you more than the other, and it's clear that I'm the one that loves you. And I remember my mom going, uh-uh. And I was like, he's right. He loves me more than I love him. That was incredible. manipulative because he knew what my Achilles heel was and he would constantly poke at it. And he would use that therapy lingo of like, well, I've done the work on myself and I can see that you are the one that hasn't. We wanna start to get curious about, do I feel supported or do I feel judged? That's a really good moment.

What would you say to someone who thinks they're gonna be single forever?

What facts do you have to back that up? Just because you haven't met that person doesn't mean you won't. And like you exist, other amazing people out there exist. You might just not have haven't met them yet.

There's 9 billion people out there.

There's almost 9 billion people. It's even the same, the saying, I had a girlfriend and I asked her, I said, are you happy with your husband? And she said, I'm happy enough. I said, could you explain? And she said, listen, do I know that there are probably better matches out there for me? Sure. Right? Of course, there's always gonna be someone that's funnier, sexier, more gregarious, but I'm really content because I don't wanna have to go find that person. And she said, I'm happy with my life. I like this and I'm okay with what I'm getting. To me, that's a beautiful place to be. Of course, there's always gonna be the bigger, better. There's gonna be someone else next door that might satisfy your needs, but that doesn't mean that they're gonna be at the age, at the demographic, at the time, in the same place and way that you are. And so if you're single now, that doesn't mean you'll be single forever. But if you activate your salience network and say, no one likes me, all men are trash, girls are crazy, I'm never gonna find anybody, then your brain's gonna start to believe it.

It's gonna start to look for it, and you're gonna start to repeat the same patterns over and over again because that's what you believe. Instead of saying, I'll believe it when I see it, I always say, it when I believe it. Because I'll believe it when I see it is, oh, I need proof to believe it. But I'll see it when I believe it is, I know it's out there for me. I just might not have met that yet. And that was the mentality I had when my mama said, if you met some 3 to 6 months, what would you do differently? I'd say no to a lot more people.

How do you develop that belief when we haven't seen it? Because I feel like for so many of us, we have limiting beliefs, we have a scarcity mindset. We don't really dream that big for ourselves, but we all know we I think there's a little delusion that's necessary.

And I also think that's what corrective experiences are for. Look for your glimmers, right? Do you have a dog? What happens when your dog comes up and loves you and you're like, oh, that felt really good? That's unconditional love. When your best friend comes over and is like, I'm on my way over whether you like it or not, I have soup and we're gonna talk. And you're like, okay, that's a corrective experience. And so I think so many of us look at it as just romantic, right? I have to have this one thing. When we then stop to look around and go, wow, I actually have a lot of these moments, but they're just not showing up in the ways that I thought they would. And so that's why I would say who you're surrounding yourself with is the way that you wanna feel when you're in a relationship. So I hope that the people in your life are treating you well.

When people share they have an issue in their relationship with their friends, friends react in one of two ways. One type of friend goes, how can I be there for you? And then actually uses that insight to improve their own relationship. The other friend hears that and gets triggered by it, and instead of being there for you, it reminds them of a gap in their relationship, which now they project onto you. It's fascinating to watch. It's fascinating. Does your vulnerability make your friend support you and improve their relationship? Or does your vulnerability make your friend feel insecure and project their gap onto your relationship?

It's so funny. The other night I was with a group that it was a new group. They weren't somebody that I normally hang out with. And I got the biggest brand offer I'd ever had. We got the email and I'm outside and Ryan's like, oh my God. And I was like, and when I went inside, they were like, Is everything okay? And I went, I was about to say it and I went, this isn't safe. And I said, yeah, everything's good. Thanks. And I just sat down and put my phone away. That right there was that moment where I was like, huh. I started to get curious. I was like, what would they respond? I said, that one would make it about herself. That one would start to get jealous and that one would go, oh, that's it? And that's when I realized, I was like, you're not my people. And that's okay, right? You meet people all the time that are just not your type of, they're not your freak. But that was an important moment. Who do you go to when you're excited? 'Cause then I talk to my people and it's the big caps of like, oh my God, oh my God, we need to celebrate.

Or when you go with a problem with your relationship, do you have one friend that's always trying to get you to break up because they want you to be single? And then 2, look who you're asking for advice from. That was in the book too. I wrote about my worst breakup was my friend, the best friend I had growing up that broke my heart into 1,000 pieces. And the one that really does show you is like, but then what made that my best friend? What makes that somebody that you love so much that you will put them in that type of place in your life? Are they celebrating you? you, or are they making you feel worse about yourself? It's the same in dating. It's the same in a relationship. It's the same in marriage.

Why do we fall for potential?

Potential is a lot sexier than reality. If I can envision the version of you that I think you'll become, it's a lot easier than me accepting the person that you actually are. Because if I accept you for who you actually are, then I have to say, am I going to be okay if I don't get those other aspects? Falling for potential is also me filling in the blanks. So if I say, well, he could be this and he could do this and he could be like that, what I'm saying also is I could fix them. I can change them, I could save them. My mama always said, you're so focused on what if, but you're not looking at what is. Because if you're looking at what is, you probably wouldn't be in this situation.

Your mom's got a lot of good advice.

Kelly is just—

This should be her book.

Right? I'm telling you.

I feel like, where's her book? Yeah.

The amount of times I'm like, my mama always says, I'm like, man, that woman is, but look where I learned it from. I wouldn't have this if I didn't have someone incredible all of my life reminding me of who I am.

Yeah. That's beautiful.

Right? That's the glimmers we gotta look for.

Sabrina, is there anything I haven't asked you about that you really wanna talk about that you really wanna tell me that I should have, but I haven't.

No, I think really fundamentally the biggest crux about this is I want people to empower themselves because if we had more independent thinkers that were challenging thoughts and having discourse, right? My God, you know as well as I do, we are in a time you cannot disagree with someone. It's the, you're either with me or you're against me. And I miss the days of being able to challenge perceptions and thoughts and patterns and getting excited to grow into the best version of who you are. Again, if you're scared of shining bright, And I need you to look around who is around you trying to dim your light so badly because we need more brightness. And I hope more than anything that this book, I can't guarantee you'll meet the love of your life. I can't guarantee that you'll have all of these things. But what I can say is that you'll be okay with you. And that to me is the greatest gift you could have is being able to lay your head on the pillow at night and say, I was good before, then I'll be good after. And who I am is more than enough.

Then I've done my job.

Sabrina, we end every episode of On Purpose with a final 5. These questions have to be answered in one sentence. The Final Five today is brought to you by State Farm. Being financially savvy is a smart move. Another smart move, choosing State Farm to help you create a plan that fits you when you choose to bundle home and auto. Sabrina Zohar, these are your Final Five. Question number 1, what is the best relationship advice you've ever heard or received?

A relationship is one giant conversation. When you stop talking, you stop having connection and you stop having the relationship. So don't ever stop talking.

That's so good. I absolutely love that.

My sister said that.

A relationship is just one giant conversation.

21 years married and she goes—

And so if you're not talking, not communicating, oh, that's so good.

You stop talking, your relationship dies.

That's brilliant. Question number 2, what is the best breakup advice you've ever heard or received?

Take the shine off of them. What makes them so amazing? The fact that they didn't want to be with you? Start to get curious about who they reminded you of and less about who you were hoping they were gonna become. Question number 3, what are the 3 questions you should ask How'd your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? How do you handle conflict? Are you somebody that likes to talk immediately or do you like to have space? And how do you see a relationship fitting into your life? Those are 3 things that are gonna tell you everything you need to know.

Let's break those down a bit. Talk to me about each of those questions and why they're useful and how you evaluate them.

So how'd your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself? I don't care about your ex. I wanna see, do you take accountability? Are all your exes crazy? Wow, that's so funny that you're the common denominator of that. Did they learn? Are they growth-minded? Something that they what'd you change your mind about, right? So I can see the thought process. When you ask then, how do you handle conflict? This person could say, oh, I like to take some space. Oh, okay. Do you communicate that? Where you could start to get curious and understand how they handle things. 'Cause I don't really care how things are when you're good. I wanna know how things are when it's not so great between you two. And the third one, how does a relationship fit into your life right now? You're trying to see if you're both on the same page.

Yeah.

'Cause if they say, right, I'll give you an example. I dated a guy before Ryan and he said, a relationship isn't really a priority 'cause I just got funding for a new movie and I'm going to Asia for a 8 months to film. And we both looked at each other and I was like, oh, so this isn't gonna go anywhere.

Yeah.

Because what I was able to then read between the lines is, is this a priority to you? Because if it's, I wanna get married and have kids and I'm really intentional about that, so if I don't see that with you, I'm not gonna waste my time. Great. Then we don't have to deal with that. But then if they tell you anything on the contrary, you can decide if you wanna see this person again. You're gauging emotional availability without being so upfront and obvious.

What's the biggest myth about dating out there right now that you wanna bust?

That somebody that triggers you in dating or relationships isn't right for you. Your partner is going— people are gonna trigger you. A trigger is a neutral action or inaction. And so if you are looking perfection and you are looking for perfection and you're trying to be perfect, you're going to be alone for a lot longer. I'm not looking for somebody who doesn't have any flaws. I am looking for somebody who I have enough in common and want the same things in life enough to where we can grow together as 2 people. So stop looking for perfection and instead start looking for somebody that is actually just aligned you in the way that you want to go in life.

5th and final question. If you could create one habit that you'd like our audience to follow for the next 7 days, what would it be?

Take 60 seconds before you respond to something. Give yourself the grace and the beauty of having a moment to defuse, allow your nervous system to regulate so that you can access your prefrontal cortex and actually decide, how do I want to respond to this? Not how and what is my knee-jerk reaction? In this moment.

Today's Final Five was brought to you by State Farm. Talk to a State Farm agent today to learn how you can bundle and save with the Personal Price Plan. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Prices are based on ratings plans that vary by state. Coverage options are selected by the customer. Availability, amount of discounts and savings, and eligibility vary by state. Sabrina Zohar, thank you so much. The book is called Why Am I Like This? Go and grab your copies right now. Break Your Relationship your patterns and create the life you want. Serena, congratulations on your debut book. I'm so excited for you, and I'm truly so excited for people to read this. Thank you so much.

Thanks, Jay.