Transcript of COLLIN GOSSELIN: The Real Story Behind One of America’s Most-Watched Families New

Hey, it's Jay. I don't know what your day's been like, but I was just thinking about you for a minute, and I hope you're being a little patient with yourself because you deserve it. And yeah, I'll talk to you soon. Hey everyone, welcome back to On Purpose. Today's guest is Colin Gosselin. Millions of you watched him grow up on Jon and Kate Plus 8, but what the cameras didn't capture is the story he was living behind the scenes. In his upcoming memoir, In the Shadow of Eight, Colin shares his account of childhood abuse, isolation, institutionalization, and the years he spent fighting to reclaim his life. Today, for the first time, we hear his story in his own words. Colin, welcome to On Purpose.

Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here.

I'm so grateful to have you here because when I built this platform, it was really to have conversations like this, to give people like yourself an opportunity to share their story, to advocate for things that are important to them, to actually have a platform to talk about things that are meaningful. So I just want to take a moment to say, when Someone like you writes a book like this, writes a memoir like this. It takes so much courage. It takes so much strength. And I just wanted you to know how much I deeply, deeply value that you chose to trust our platform and be here today.

Thank you. And I really appreciate this opportunity to be able to be here and share my voice on such a larger level. So it's super important to me.

Colin, what's fascinating is that the world met you at 3 years old and you were on the show John and Kate Plus 8. But for those who don't know anything about the Goslins, how would you who the Goslins were and what the show was?

I mean, I would start and describe it before the show. We were, you know, a normal family just doing our normal thing. And the only thing that was abnormal was probably the fact that there were, you know, we were a family of 10 living in, you know, in a small home in a small, you know, humble, humble county. But to describe the Goslins, you know, after the fame and all that, I would just say that The intentions were good at first. You know, the show was a means of income to provide for a family of that size. But, you know, it quickly spiraled. And, you know, when you're given all this money and you're given this spotlight and this fame, some people take it and they take it the wrong way and they, you know, let it get to their heads and others, you know, they appreciate it and they keep that humility. It quickly became a dangerous machine.

And before the show happened, what was your day-to-day like? What did it look like at your home and your family?

To be honest, I don't remember what the day-to-day life was like before the show, because for me, my earliest memories are when there were already camera crew in the house and cables and lights and cameras.

Yeah. I mean, so when the camera crew showed up, how much of it was being produced and how much of it was being captured and how much of it was being directed?

Early on when the show started, I mean, it was everything. I mean, they wanted to capture every little moment. I always joke and say, like, you couldn't— a toddler, as toddlers, we couldn't pick our nose without them capturing it. So, I mean, it was everything from them showing us in potty training, all the birthdays. It was everything, all the meltdowns. So, as far as directed, I mean, early on, I don't remember a lot of moments being like— stopped and recaptured, but that did happen a lot later on once there was a bigger viewership. And I feel that it was more crucial for there to be this certain picture put out there.

Can you tell me about— I've heard you talk about a moment where you were directed to redo a particular emotion. It almost felt like it was a hard and difficult moment, but it almost felt like you had to then reperform it.

Yeah. I mean, there were many times where something would happen and there'd be like a facial expression from, you know, one of me or my siblings, or there was a line that they said and, you know, you didn't, you know, a sister didn't laugh hard enough at it or something like that. And they'd say, hold on, hold on, hold on. Like, I think it was to my sister Leah. They said one time like, Leah, can you, you know, re— re-say that again? But say it this way. And, you know, Hannah, you laugh more at it, or, you know, Colin, change the way that your face looks. So, you know, Just stuff like that. It was just, it was really weird because, you know, that didn't happen early on 'cause we were kids and we didn't understand the presence of the cameras. But later on, as we were older, it was just weird for me to understand that, you know, why is it reality TV? But we're being told to stop and show this facial expression versus that one. And, you know, laugh, laugh a little louder, you know, smile a little harder, stuff like that.

It was just really weird.

Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine at that age what you just said is where you don't really even understand what's going on, I imagine, when you're that young.

The cameras being there on day one, and you don't really understand that it's any different since those cameras have been there since day one. So, you know, people ask me all the time like, oh, isn't it weird? Like, wasn't it weird being in front of a camera? And I'm like, no, it wasn't weird at all. Like, it was normal. You know, from the age of 3, that was part of my life. It's like for anybody, if there was something that their family did You know, on a normal day-to-day basis. It was as normal as waking up in the morning and eating breakfast for the normal family. That's how normal the cameras were. So they were just always a part of the daily routine.

Do you ever remember the cameras being off?

We were rolling every day. I mean, at least a majority of the week, every week of the month, of the year. They were always there. There was always lights set up and cameras. And then once it got big enough and it was, it became, it went from, you know, the big family in the small humble house, to the big house, there was like more camera crews and it was just this bigger operation. And then there was just even more and more cameras and it was just always rolling. And at a point it actually became the normal day in the life. And once the viewership got bigger and the network changed, they would have us do like activities and vacations that would kind of draw more viewer entertainment in. So things that weren't day in the life, they were things that we did to just content to fill, to fill the air. So.

At what point did filming the show stop feeling right for you?

The first indication that that life wasn't normal for a child was probably my parents' divorce. You know, obviously early on, I'd say as a top— as a kid, it was never normal. That should never be a thing where you exploit children, where you film them potty training. But when I first had that recollect— that realization, it was when my parents divorced. And I kind of overheard some conversations where my father didn't want that for his children. And, um, they would do things like they'd have photo shoots where they'd bring in like puppies and they'd be like, kids, like play with the puppies, have fun, pet 'em, you know, do that. And then, you know, once they got all the pictures, they, you know, we'd still wanna play with the puppies, you know, cuz we're kids and puppies are adorable and they'd take the puppies away. And, you know, you'd see things like that as a kid. And, and even though cameras are something that you understand as normal, you know, that's not normal. And, um, like I said, with the divorce, I, I overheard them my dad didn't want that for his children. So then I started to question, you know, what really is all of this and how normal is all of this for a child my age and for my siblings?

How old were you when that happened?

My parents divorced around 5. So the realization really kicked in around 4 and a half, 5. And then it kind of just started that, that realization and those thoughts just started to like marinate as I got older and they started to get like deeper and deeper. And I started to think more and more about it as a 5-year-old. So, you know, if a 5-year-old realizes You know, maybe this isn't right. I mean, and it's kind of crazy, you know?

Instagram teen accounts come with automatic protections that limit who can contact teens, the content they can see, and the time they spend on the app. Learn more about teen accounts and Instagram's ongoing work to protect teens online at instagram.com/teenaccounts. What were the other things, like you just said, like it's not normal to watch children be potty trained. Like what were the other things like that that you then started to realize, wait a minute, this isn't, Normal. This isn't okay.

In my eyes, like, I don't think you should film a kid getting potty trained in general. I don't think children of that, that young an age, or even as we got older, as we were like preteens, I don't think filming every little detail and everything they do and every emotion they have and every outburst they have, I don't think that's normal. Actually, it's not that I don't think, it's I know. I mean, that's exploitation, you know? So a child should be able to develop naturally in their childhood with their parents being there and, and their parents supporting and teaching them about the emotions that they feel without the child feeling the pressure of the camera, you know, on them. So, you know, a normal child, they feel emotions and, you know, their parents are like, you know, maybe you feel it 'cause of this. And they try to help them through those emotions and why they're feeling them and soothe them and, and, and condole them. But with the cameras there, you feel like you have all these emotions and you have to hide some of them or you have to fake some of them or you have to just completely switch 'em off because, you know, you don't want to be exploited to the camera for feeling normal emotions that children are allowed to feel.

I couldn't agree with you more. And I feel like this is such an important conversation, even more so now because you were on a TV show, it was very successful. Today I feel like social media—

Absolutely.

Has made it so accessible and easy for anyone's child to be broadcast to the world.

It's crazy nowadays because it's becoming this big thing that, you know, with social media, you know, YouTube and just anything on like Instagram or TikTok or whatever, that you can just put your child in front of a camera and broadcast, you know, every part of their childhood to the public. And that means their emotions. That means vulnerable moments that they're going to have, that those moments should just be between them and their parents. and the parents helping them to feel through those emotions. And when it's broadcast, the child may feel embarrassment. They may feel that they can't fully express the emotions that they're feeling. And when it's put in front of a camera, you maybe don't even understand those emotions as much as you would if it was just normal.

And the thing is now it's been so normalized.

Absolutely.

It's become so normalized for kids to be recorded, kids to be uploaded videos on YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, whatever it may be. And of course, viewers find it endearing and adorable and cute and so many other things. But the reality is that the experience for that child, in listening to your story and getting to read your book before you came today, for me, it's like we have no idea what's happening to that individual.

These parents are making content, and it's— you're right, it's cute for the viewers to see. They're enjoying it. There's these cute moments, and it puts smiles on people's faces. But the thing is, a child is too young to understand to say no to that, right? Because as a child, you know, you just do what your parent, what you're told. But the child is too young to understand that they're being put in front of a camera and that they're gonna permanently be on the internet out in the world. And, you know, they may grow into a teenager that's insecure because, you know, you, you never know what the aftereffects are. But the biggest thing is that the child doesn't have a say in it. The child can't, you know, raise their hand and say, I don't wanna do this if, if they don't understand it. So that's why for me, when I understood it, it was like, I, I don't want this anymore. But the biggest thing is that children, like when you're developing, when you're still in the, the most important developmental part of your life, which is that entire, you know, baby, when you're an infant all the way to when you turn 18, you know, an adult.

And even after that, it shouldn't be broadcast. You're gonna make mistakes. You're gonna, you know, I just, I just feel like in that developmental stage, there needs to be privacy. There needs to be an ability to have that vulnerability. That's not broadcasted and, you know, for the world to see.

Talking about that, how did you start to push back? What do you remember about saying no at the first time you started sharing that?

I was very scared the first time I went to my mom and I was like, I didn't even word it. I wasn't direct. I wasn't like, oh, I don't want to do this anymore. I was afraid of her. She's very much like a drill instructor. Uh, or drill sergeant. Um, I was, I was very afraid to voice that, but instead of verbally voicing it, I, you know, I, I did kind of verbally voice it. I was just like, oh, like, I'm, I just, I don't wanna do this. Like, kind of like that. But I was scared. It was like, you know, me, Dad, you know, probably around 8 years old is when I, I first voiced that. And it was like, oh, like I, I didn't know how to say it. I was afraid. Um, this had been, this show had been an operation that had been going on for so long. How do you throw a monkey wrench in that?

Yeah.

You know, how is it Kate Plus 8 when one of the kids doesn't wanna perform anymore? So I realized it was like this big circus I was a part of. And while it was beautiful because we were given so many opportunities because of, you know, the show and the money it was bringing in, that was what was on the outside. It was like we were, you know, and, and I, and I always say it was beautiful, the opportunities we were given because of the TV show. And on the outside, it was also beautiful and it was cute and it was funny and it was, Like the whole world was a part of the family. But the really difficult part was behind the scenes where they didn't see that there was, you know, that I was struggling. You know, I was struggling to understand why my life was being broadcasted and why my privacy was being traded for a paycheck from a network and why my opportunity to have a natural, healthy development as a child, why that was being sacrificed for money. Because when a child's in that developmental phase, I mean, the things they learn stick with them for life.

So you can't trade that for any amount of money. And that's how I felt. And I observed a lot as a kid and I understood a lot of things that I don't think somebody that age would understand. And I think being on camera did that to me. Yeah, it's just, it's crazy to think about now, even today, even though it was my whole life, it's still crazy for me to think that all of that was broadcasted.

I can't even imagine having the courage at 8 to go up to a parent and say, I don't wanna do something?

Like I said, it was, it was this really like shaky, like shaky, scared kind of timid approach. But then without really verbally voicing it, I would physically, I mean, I mean, in my expressions in interviews, you can see I'd have my head down. I'd be looking to the side and my mom would be sitting behind the cameras set up and she'd be like pointing at her face, like smile, like smile, like fix your face. And she'd be mouthing it to me like, dead stare in her eyes at me. And it would be like, they'd do like a boys interview, or sometimes they'd do like a big, all 6 of us on the big couch. But I remember one time I was with my brothers and they were just, you know, they were fine, but I was just off to the side and I was out of it. And she was like looking dead at me like, you need to, you need to fix it now. And there were many times like that. There were many times where we'd be out on a shoot, you know, out filming around the town or on vacation and You asked how I pushed back, and this is how I pushed back.

I made it so that when the viewers would watch, they would know something was up by how my facial expressions were, by how my body language was. I rebelled by not performing, by not showing that we are a big happy family, because behind the scenes, even though it looked like America's happiest, biggest family, behind the scenes, it was not like that. And because I rebelled, because I pushed back so much, that's why I faced a lot of what I faced from my mom afterwards. The aftermath of me not wanting to be a part of her big plan, I faced a lot of consequences from her. Let's just say consequences because of that rebellion.

First of all, I just wanna say that like, I feel like in this, book, you're extremely real and raw. And I know that your reason for wanting to do it is to advocate for children's privacy and protection and wanting them to be safe and sharing your own vulnerable, painful, traumatic story. You're doing it for that reason.

Absolutely.

Can you take us back to some of the earliest moments or memories that you have of what you would describe as abuse taking place within your home and what you experienced?

I mean, there's this journal that my mom wrote, and it was when I was 2 years old. And in the journal, she wrote about how she would hit me very hard, and she would pray to God to help her to stop hitting me. And my mom was religious growing up, and I don't know what she faced in her childhood, but clearly that transitioned into, you know, how she treated me. But my earliest Direct memory was probably around 8 years old when I would rebel. I would look upset. I would drag my feet and turn away from the cameras and try to hide from the cameras. And oftentimes she would drag me away from the cameras aside. We were in Mexico one time, or I think it was Mexico. It was on a vacation and we were filming something and she like dragged me around the corner and was like grabbing me by like my shirt and was like, you need to get your act together. You like, she's like, She used to tell me, stop having a pity party. This isn't Colin's pity party. Snap out of it. Put a smile on your face. Fix it right now.

Fix it. She would grab me up by the shirt. She'd like do this thing where she would take her palm and like stretch it out and go like this to the side of my face and, or pull me by my ear. That was a big thing that she used to do. And she just would just grab me up and ragdoll me around and say, you're gonna get it together now. So then I'd prance back over to the cameras and Oh, and I, I didn't know how to, you know, after that I didn't know how to just smile, but I would try to just fake it and just be like, do a little and just go and pretend like I'm having a good time. But that's my earliest memory. And that happened a lot. That wasn't just that one shoot. This happened a lot all the way up until age 11 when she finally decided she wanted to discard me. And there was a reason behind that too. It wasn't just, let me just throw him away.

It's heartbreaking to hear because not only about the portrayal, but more importantly, just about the treatment that you are receiving. That was your earliest memory or direct memory. But when you read about those entries about your mom praying to God that she could stop hitting you that hard and, and beating you in that way, how did you feel when you first read those?

I mean, it's heartbreaking to read something like that. I think if anybody has to pray to their God or even reach out to anybody or Even just ask anybody like, hey, help me to stop hitting my kid. I mean, that to me just proves like you shouldn't be a parent. Like, it, it's just crazy to me. How do you, how do you have to reach out to anybody to, to, to help you to stop hitting a 2-year-old child? It, it just made no sense to me. And that my first evaluation was, was that it was like, how do you have to ask for help to stop doing that? You should just not do that in the first place. You should just want to protect your child in the first place. They're 2 years old. It doesn't matter how old they are. That's your child. You made the decision to have a child. You know, it's your job to nurture, to care, to be there for them and to protect them. And most of all, not abuse them. I mean, it's, it's just, it's, it's really not rocket science, but I mean, I guess to get into that concept, some people just don't understand it like that.

But that's, to me, it's just plain and simple. Like, you just don't do those things.

Absolutely. Couldn't agree with you more. I don't, I mean, children, like you said, at any age, but children at that age are completely dependent, completely innocent, completely helpless. Like, I mean, there's, there's, there's no reason. Were you treated differently to your siblings as well?

Yes.

And do you believe that's because you were pushing back and standing up?

I was the, the first kind of, I guess I pioneered that path of Being rebellious. And, um, when I, when I did start to push back, that's when, I mean, you know, like I said, she would do things early on and write about them that made me question, like, why was it always me that she, that she picked out? Was it something from her childhood that caused that? But at 8 years old, when I decided to push back and rebel, um, then that's when I really faced her wrath. Because, I mean, She was America's best mom and we were making a ton of money and the whole operation was flowing exactly how it should. And all of a sudden, you know, 1 out of the 8 on Kate Plus 8 is like, I don't wanna do this anymore. And he's looking upset on camera and viewers are like, why does he look like that? What's going on? And they can't question what's going on in the home because then my mom looks bad. So she was doing all of that. And then I was, I went to school one day after she had dragged me by my ear.

My ear was swollen and it was purple. And that's one thing, this is, this is really when the peak of things started to happen. So, you know, a teacher saw and I talked to a teacher about it and the guidance counselor got involved and I was ultimately pulled out of school because I was trying to go to other people for help. So she was cutting off every route I could take. To protect myself. She told my dad, she told, she told me, uh, your dad doesn't want to see you anymore. And she told my dad, Colin is no longer going to be visiting you anymore. So she cut off that. I mean, everywhere I tried to go for help, I couldn't get it. When the camera crew were there, none of this happened because they were always there. So if they knew, I could just always go to them. But she didn't show this in front of the camera. She would pull me aside, like I said. And then Once she pulled me out of school, I was homeschooled. So my, my, my siblings would go off to school and she would, let's just say those days were not good for me.

They were out of the house. It was just me and her. And those days were some of the hardest days of my life to recall. And I've done some hard things. I mean, I was on Parris Island. That's pretty hard. But, you know, I was, I was around 10 at this time. And I was outta school and my siblings were in like 4th, 5th grade, and they would go off to school every day. And I would, my mom would be physically and verbally abusive to me. She would belittle me and tell me that this is all my fault and tell me about how, you know, what's wrong with me for not wanting to perform and had a room built in the basement where she kept me locked up. And it's not just like a bedroom where, you know, That's a part of the house that, you know, you just put your kid in and you flip the lock around and lock them. She had a room specifically built in the storage part of our unfinished basement that was cinder block walls and cement floors. She had a room put up there with a bolt lock on the outside of the door where she would keep me.

I mean, she, I mean, this was all by design. This was not by accident. This was a full effort operation of hers to, to, to silence me and make sure I had no way to tell. CYS came to the house one time, and she used to have this look in her eyes that was like, you better not do it. You better not do it. And I'll kind of explain the layout, but like, let's say you were the, the child services worker and, and I'm me. We're at this table where we were in the front living room. I remember this vividly. There's like windows over here, lots of light coming in. There's a set of double doors over here. And, you know, they open like that. So she had the double door. They were like a little bit more on your side. She had it cracked open and she was standing there. standing right there with her eyes on me, but you can't see her because the door's like this. And they're asking me questions and I'm like, yeah, you know, how are you feeling, hon? I'm okay. If I would have said something when they, when that, when that CYS worker left, it would have been hell for me.

So I knew, I knew that look in her eyes meant don't say anything. I didn't have my dad to talk to, go to anymore. I didn't have teachers to go to anymore. Like I said, she didn't perform— she performed very well in front of the camera crew. And when, you know, when the cameras were on me and her, it was, oh, Colin, I just, I care about you so much. I just want you to be, you know, good Colin. She would say something along the lines of that. So I had nobody.

It seems like when I'm listening to you, there's so much control, there's manipulation, there's neglect, there's curation of image with Child Protective Services, whoever. I wanted to ask you about When your teacher noticed your ear, tell me a bit more about that particular injury and that moment where she actually contacted— your teacher, I believe, contacted Child Protective Services.

Yep. My, my 4th grade teacher did. She— when my ear was swollen like that, and that was from my mom pulling on my ear going like this, she would fully, like, I'd be standing up and she'd just yank me by the ear, like yank it, pull it very hard. And when my teacher saw that, I didn't directly wanna say anything, but she came up to me and was questioning me about it. I didn't know what to say. I was, I was always scared to speak up because I knew how powerful my mom was. And it was, I just said, my mom, she pulled my ear. She did this to me. And I was taken to the guidance counselor and they were, they were trying to kind of dig into the story a little more, but I, I just didn't really know what to say. And I also had, I always had this thought in the back of my head, no matter, no matter what official service or protector was present, I always had this thought that if they can't pick me up, And take me somewhere else right now, today, this moment, then I can't say anything.

And that's one thing I want to change is because there's all these rules and paperwork and stuff that, you know, systems have to go through to be able to remove a child. But an hour, a minute that you don't remove a child from a home when you notice something is a minute that anything could happen. The parent could, I mean, Parents have unfortunately done worse than just abuse their children. But the biggest thought I had in the back of my head, and that I know that a lot of kids in these situations have, is that if I can't be immediately removed right now, I have to go right back there with that person and be there with them. So when I'm sitting with the guidance counselor, I'm like, I don't even know if I can tell them what's going on because I don't— I know it's gonna get back to my mom. And also, what are they gonna do to be able to— Be able to remove me from the situation right now. So if they can't remove me from this, like this whole operation, then it's gonna end the same way. My mom's gonna come, she's gonna smile, she's gonna say, oh, it was an accident.

Uh, he was roughhousing with his brothers and she's gonna bring me back to the house and I'm gonna get it. That's basically it. So one thing that needs to change, there needs to be more speed and more intention in removing children from these situations. Because I know every child that's in these situations, they all think that thought. Because you can come and you can talk with a child and see what else can do this, but they have to go through all these reports and they have to do all this and say all that and get this permission from the judge and da da da da da and find placement for the child. It's hard for a child to say anything when they know that they're not going to be able to just leave right away and be under protection of somebody else.

Yeah, well, I think this is the exact reason why children need protecting is because they can't stand up for themselves.

Right.

It's too vulnerable. It's too scary for a child in that moment to stand up for themselves, even if they know what's going on.

It's not even the fact that I was on TV, that there was all this power and money behind my mom. It's the day-to-day normal family, and, and the child is vulnerable and they can't speak up for themselves. And when parents want this reputation, not even if they're on their broadcast in front of the nation, just a reputation in their hometown with their friends, with people they know in the community. When they want that reputation, they'll do anything to remove any routes that the child can take to speak out or say anything. But oftentimes a child is so vulnerable, so scared to say anything that it's hard for them. If I would've known that somebody could come and pick me up and, and take me away from that place and keep me protected and actually hear my story and actually hear the child versus trying to defend the adult. We often want to defend adults. They're more credible. You know, children are young. We think they're young. We think they're just saying this, saying that. We need to start believing children. And if somebody would've removed me from the house. They would have taken me away and protected me and heard my story.

I would have told them everything. And at that point, things would have happened that I would not have to go back there and face that abuse that I faced on and on and on for days after. And then after that, been sent away and had 3 more years of my childhood taken. I mean, it's, it's because we don't act fast enough that children have to go back and keep facing these things. It's, we don't act fast enough. This is the thing that needs to change in these systems. There's actually a CYS report, one of many that have, that have, that have started since like 2006 when I was, uh, I'd be 2 at this point. And, uh, I believe the one early on that might've been from like family members that were concerned for the wellbeing of me and my siblings, you know, being constantly on TV. But there's one that was later on that happened around the time that my mom Had me zip-tied hands and feet together. And after I was sent to the institution, because that all happened in the same day, Child Protective Services talked to me and I told them about the zip ties.

And I told them about the whole situation with the room, with, I was locked in a room and I wanted to get out, which is completely justified. Any child that feels locked in a room, I don't think they're wrong for wanting to get out and leave the home because they feel that sense of danger. This report details everything. Child told us that he was zip-tied. Child had bruises on his knees. And I talk about why those were there, because my mom had picked me up and dropped me on the floor. And it details everything. And then you look at the determination of the report and you know what it says? Unfounded. They should have gone to the house and done something. I mean, my other siblings were still at the house. They made this report after interviewing me. I told them all of this, and the outcome of it said unfounded. We don't have a determination. These systems, they, they need to change. It's, it's heartbreaking for me to hear. I hear stories all the time. I see these things day after day. These things do not stop. It's not just the epidemic of kids being exploited on social media.

It's the thing that's been going on long before for the exploitation, and it's the— and that's the abuse.

Yeah, inside the home.

Inside the home.

Which no one sees.

There doesn't need to be big cameras in a production that it's hidden from for it to be abuse. So, and it's, it's also scary because there were so many more people. These things were being filmed. There was cameras, there was more camera crew presence. Even though she did a good job at keeping what she did to me separate from everybody, the scary thought is that If it took me this long to get this out there to somebody, think about the child that doesn't have a million cameras in their home, that doesn't have all these other adults in their life. Think about it. How hard is it for them to tell somebody? That scares me. That scares me for them. That's why I wrote this book. That's why I'll never stop speaking up. And simply, that's the fact that no matter how many people come after me and say, oh, you're just fabricating a story as a grown man, you know, You're just doing this for attention. I will never stop. I mean, I, I'm sorry. I get, I, I get very emotional because, I mean, like I get attacked for speaking up, but it really doesn't matter to me.

I, I can brush it off so easily because I understand the depth and the importance. I understand this, how important it is for somebody to be a voice because it's this cycle. If somebody speaks up, If I speak up, if I write a book, somebody else will speak up and write their story too. And on and on and on. It'll be a cycle. We need to keep the cycle going and we need to change these institutions and we need to change these protective services. We just need to make so much change. There's a lot of change to make. And I plan to do everything I can to make, to make that change. But it just breaks my heart because If I couldn't find a way to get that, to get out what was going on, what was happening to me, then think about the child who doesn't have all the people in their home. It's just common sense. I mean, as a parent, you're supposed to protect your child. You're supposed to, you're supposed to do everything you can to nurture them and protect them and teach them and help them grow. And, and, and how could you bring a kid into this world and not do that?

It's like, why? Like, it's not that hard to understand.

Thank you for sharing that, Colin. And you're definitely not asking for too much. I think it's the bare minimum.

Thank you. I, it's the bare, bare min— it's below bare minimum. Mm-hmm. It's, I mean, asking a parent to do the best for their kids and not hurt them and not exploit them and not use them for money. I mean, even It's below bare minimum. It's just what should be done.

Yeah.

I just think it's every adult's responsibility, if it's their child or not, to, to look for the signs, to, to be there for all children. If you see something wrong, do something about it. It is the responsibility of all adults to protect children. They're innocent. They're vulnerable. They're learning. They're growing. It is our job. It's my job. That's why I do this. I don't care how many comments I get to say, oh, Colin's this, Colin's that. People say horrible things about me in the comments on social media, but I don't care. I simply feel so unbothered by the hate because I'm so driven by my mission to advocate. I seriously feel that they can say the most horrible things about me. Horrible. And people, I mean, I read a comment earlier this morning. It was horrible. Just degrading and saying horrible things about me. But I simply felt no, I felt no pain because this, it's a simple fact that the motivation I have and the drive I have to speak and to write my story and to keep advocating and to change these systems, the motivation I feel is so strong in my heart that it radiates so strongly.

It's like a force field that you can say all you want. And I just don't even, I don't feel the harmful, hateful comments. I don't. It's this scale and you see like a scale like this. Their hateful comments are all the way up there because this side of the scale is so heavy in the fact of, I know what my mission is and I know what my purpose is. And I love that this says on purpose. Because I know my purpose and it's just, it weighs that side of the scale down incredibly.

I think what we notice when I'm reading your book is that there's this escalation. So first you become aware, then you start slowly standing up for yourself. Then we notice you being treated differently, the basement isolation, siblings are at school. And then Child Protective Services. And then you actually get to this point where you decided to run away. I wanted to ask you, like, when you're reading the book and as I'm hearing your journey, it makes sense because it's almost like it's just getting worse and worse and worse and worse and worse. So it makes sense to me why someone even attempts that. But walk me through that decision and how you tried to do that because you felt so trapped. And because you felt so helpless in those situations when people were even asking you questions.

It actually kind of made me a little bit nervous to detail that process. And I'll tell you why, because I thought that if I talked about that first decision to speak up for myself and to stand up for myself, I thought that when others read that, other kids who like, maybe like maybe a kid's reading this who's currently in that situation of that first step, I thought it might make them scared to do it because Because you're right, there's this escalation that it keeps getting worse. But I will tell you, to get to a good standing, to get to a good place, sometimes you have to make hard steps. It's gonna be hard. And it's not their fault. Children shouldn't have to make that, that hard decision. They shouldn't have to speak up and be afraid to go through those hard things, but it will get better. And in the end, I would've taken that risk a million times. I would've done it a million times over, no matter how hard it was. It was very hard. You're right. There was this escalation of events and it kept getting just more difficult and things just kept falling, not in my favor over and over and over.

I just kept getting more, it just was worse and worse and worse. But it got to a point where one day my mom wasn't in the home and I was like, it's now or never. I need to leave. So I was in this room, which by the way, it's in the unfinished basement. There's a window. There's a window like, like this wide. It's like a small little window in the corner, which is also a fire hazard, just by the way. Um, you know, for locking somebody in a room with no way out. So there's this tiny window, super high up, and I, you know, threw my mattress against the wall and climbed up it and climbed out, and I ran. I just ran like faster than I, I mean, I've never run that fast in my life, but that feeling of I need to get away, that fight or flight carried me all the way down the driveway and on the road. And then I had this realization, and this is a really, really sad and upsetting part of the book, and it's going to tangle a lot of brains, but it's going to like really linger in there for a second for some people.

There was this realization that we lived out in the middle of nowhere. Everybody knew my mom. Everybody liked my mom. Everybody loved my mom. She had a great reputation with the local police department. She'd bring them cinnamon buns every year and everybody, I mean, I mean, the trash, the guys that came and collected the trash, they loved her. So I had this realization that I lived in the middle of nowhere and No matter where I went, I'd still eventually have to be returned back to my mom. Or somebody would recognize me or recognize my last name, they'd take me back. And she would just, you know, embrace me with this warm hug and say, oh, I'm sorry, you know, he's got behavioral issues. And I thought about that, but then I thought, like, I don't know where my dad lives now. I don't know where to go. I had to then, you know, after building up the courage to climb out that window and run away, I had to build up even more courage to walk back to the place, the exact place where the damage was being done. And people say, oh, like, well, you know, why just, you know, walk into town?

We lived in the middle of nowhere. You know, just walk to the neighbors, just give it a chance. Everybody knew her. The problem is, is as adults, even now, we turn a blind eye to these things. We see these things and we're like, oh, you know, it's okay. Like, I don't know what's going on inside the house. Like, it's probably just some mess up, you know, it's just a little mistake. Like, the child's just having a rough day. Let me just bring him back to his mom. And all this went through my head in the span of like a minute. And then I walked back up the driveway and it was, it was right back to it. I mean, I don't want to tell too much because it's, it's all detailed in the book, but yeah, that's when, uh, I had a very rough afternoon after that.

Yeah. I mean, I feel like even as you're saying that, as to what people expect, I'm like, I think we're expecting too much of kids. Like to expect a kid to say, oh, you should have done this, or you should have done that, or you could have done this, or you could have done that. I mean, that sounds like Sounds like a lot to expect of a kid to know what to do in this scenario and to know who to trust and who to speak to.

You're right. We shouldn't have all these expectations of kids, these adult-level expectations, but with TV and with all of that and how I grew up, I grew up very fast. So I had to make like really big decisions as a little kid. And that also makes me think like kids shouldn't have to make these grown decisions. We should let kids be kids. A lot of my childhood was taken from me, and this is why I'm such a big believer that we should just let kids have their childhood. Let them be kids. Don't force decisions and agendas and all these things on them. Just let them be kids. Teach them. Explain things to them, help them grow, be there for them. If they feel this emotion that they don't understand, just comfort them. I mean, I, you know, I'm not a parent, but I sure can tell you that, you know, love is a strong thing. And sometimes, yeah, sometimes you can't love a child. Sometimes, you know, I, uh, I heard this story from a close friend. She was in foster care and she went into a home and Her foster parents thought they could just like love her and just give her that love.

And sometimes that doesn't work for everybody. And I understand that. But I think showing up is a big thing.

This episode is brought to you by Chase Sapphire Reserve. One of the greatest gifts we can give ourselves is the chance to step outside our routine. Travel has a way of slowing us down and shifting our perspective. And with the Chase Sapphire Reserve card, Every journey becomes even more rewarding. Earn 4 times the points on flights and hotels booked direct. Enjoy access to award-winning airport lounges, 3 times the points on dining, and Reserve-exclusive tables. Learn more at chase.com/sapphirereserve. Cards issued by JPMorgan Chase Bank, NA member, FDIC, subject to credit approval, terms apply. Talk to me about the day that you got institutionalized. And, and what you remember.

So I was 11 years old and the day I got institutionalized, this was, like I said, this was after I came home from the house. Um, but my mom had returned home because she had left me with nannies. Like I said, I, I felt the bravery to leave because she was not, to run away cuz she wasn't there. She came home like a raging storm and picked me up and threw me on the floor, came in, bound me with zip ties. And I talk about this in the CYS report that was only a few days later from when this happened. And meanwhile, there's 2 nannies that are, that have, that were there, and they're complicit with all of this. They're seeing all this happen, and they're fine with it. It blows my mind. Why are adults, even if you work for my mom, why are you okay with this? Why are you letting this happen? But eventually, she comes in. After I'm laying there bound up, she comes in, she clips them off. There's marks on my wrists and my ankles, and I'm wearing shorts. So she brings in a pair of sweatpants and a long sleeve shirt.

It's May, by the way. It's hot outside. So I'll tell you, the apparel wasn't really appropriate, but it had a reason. Put it on. So I put it on. I cover the marks on my wrists with the long sleeves. The pants cover the bruises. And the ankle marks. And then, uh, she was friends with somebody on, uh, uh, somebody that was like part of the EMS, whatever, paramedics, whatever, and, uh, the ambulance. And they, they come, they come into the house and she explains to them, Colin's irrational. He ran away. Like she's showing them like the window. Like he just, he's outta control. He has all these problems. He's outta control. And I'm just sitting there like, there's no way if I speak up and tell my side of the story, there's no way all these adults will believe me. So they get me up, put me in the ambulance. I'm taken to another hospital first. Um, and I'm there, I'm held there for like a, like a couple hours and then they get me ready to transport again. And I'm like, my mom's there and I'm like, like, I'm asking my mom, like, mommy, where am I going?

Where am I going? What's going on right now? Where am I going? And she's just Looking at me with a blank stare, like a blank stare, almost a little bit of just frustration in her eyes, but a blank stare. And she doesn't say anything. They put me in the back of the ambulance. The last thing I see before the ambulance doors close in the bay there in the hospital is her face. And, uh, that's the last time I've seen my mom in person at 11 years old. I'm 22 now. Wow. She did visit me once in the institution one time, but that was, that was a year and a half after that time that she closed those ambulance doors. Um, so then I'm taken to the institution.

And you had no idea how long you were?

I had no idea where I was going when that ambulance drove away. And I'm trying to like ask the ambulance guys and they were actually really, these were like a different, these were different. This was a different crew and they were really nice. They're like, hey, like, You know, we can't really say, but we're taking you somewhere. And so they take me in and they take me in and, you know, they take me into the institution and, you know, they do all the intake and whatever. And I'm just like going through the questions, but, you know, I detail more of what goes on in the story and things I see and the emotions. But overall, I was, I was very, I was scared. I was in a new place, but it was weird. There was this weird dynamic of emotions because while I was afraid, That I just got told nothing and then dropped off at this place, I realized that I wasn't at home anymore. And that even if I'm here for a day and I have to go back home, it's a day that I don't have to deal with my mom. Even, even as horrible as that place was, being there a day, at least one day, meant that I don't have to endure the abuse of my mother.

But it turned out I was there for over 20 months. And the, uh, the normal stay there is 7 to 10 days. If we put that in perspective, 7 to 10 days inpatient. I was there for over 20 months. 2 Christmases, 2 birthdays. Yeah. All the holidays. And the biggest thing was the birthdays. I mean, usually I celebrate them with my siblings. We're all the same age. It's, it's a bond we share, but I didn't have them. I didn't get phone calls. And then about a year and a half of being there, my mom finally decides to visit and it's all for about 20 minutes. And I've, I've gained weight. I've been put on all these medications. Um, I look sick. I feel sick. I feel lethargic. And she sits across— she— we're like sitting— I'm like sitting here and she's like sitting here on a couch and I'm like looking at her and she's telling me how well my siblings are doing and that they're doing so well without me. And, you know, they, they don't miss me and they don't need me. And I, I broke our family. Basically things— just telling me how well things are going without— with me removed from the equation.

And I'm crying. I'm, I'm bawling. You know, you're limited on what you can have in an institution like that, but I was able to save up all my good behavior points for a pack of origami paper. And I'd made a bunch of little animals for each of my siblings and my mom. I made like an origami tulip for my mom, like a flower, a couple of flowers. I made some like different animals that I knew each of my siblings liked. And she goes, no, no, it's okay. You keep those. And then the whole time I'm bawling. I have these glasses on. I had to get glasses because my eyes had gotten so bad. And I, I just felt just, I felt a bunch of nothing and a bunch of a lot at the same time. And I was really excited to see my mom and I thought I'd see her sooner than, you know, a year and some change later, but she comes in for 20 minutes. And she was almost acting in a way as if like driving down to that institution was like a burden to her. So she was very like, ugh, and then just tells me like all these things, like, it's just horrible.

I'm already feeling enough. I've already been emotionally damaged enough from everything I went through in her house and in this institution thus far. And then she just sits there. What parent doesn't visit their kid? After dumping them wrongfully in an institution. Even if you put your kid in an institution for legitimate reasons, you'd still go visit them. I got one visit in, in 2 years for 20 minutes, and it was all a lecture about how I ruined our family, how I'm no good, how I deserve to be here. Putting these words out right now. I'm coming outta my mouth. Like, the only other time I've talked about this is maybe to like my family or when writing this book is when I've really went over this. But it, it's hard every time I say it because I, I simply can't believe that a human can do this to their child. Just doesn't make any sense.

Colin, you're so brave.

Thank you.

So courageous. This is not easy at all.

I'd like to say it gets easier to talk about, but when you talk about it, you relive it. I relived it to write this book, but like I said, it's worth it every time because I understand the weight of what I'm doing.

Mm-hmm.

I understand the weight of my advocacy for other children and grown adults. I saw a comment the other day. This lady said, uh, she was, uh, 67 years old. She Had dealt with abuse as a child from her parents. And when I read that, I was like, wow, like sometimes these things are more lasting than just going through them and going to therapy and getting over them. Sometimes they're so lasting. And even if we go to therapy and we fix these things and we help kind of soothe our mind a little bit on the things we've experienced, Even later on down the life, you never forget this. You never forget the things a child will never forget, what their caretaker and nurturer and, and somebody who was supposed to protect them flipped and did to them. You'll never forget that because the dynamic of a parent is to protect. And when they don't, it's just, you never forget it. And that made me realize that like, you can talk to a therapist and you can have a family that shows up, but the thing to think about is the fact that what we do to children, when they're young, it ingrains differently than if they were an adult when these things happen.

Yeah.

It ingrains very differently in the mind, in the development. So for me, while, while I feel so— I'm so passionate now about building a peaceful life, and even when I get hateful comments, I'm so passionate about just responding in an understanding way to help people understand rather than just being negative and just saying like blah, blah, blah, and just, you know, getting mad at them. But even when you like, building that peace is so important for me, but I will never forget the things I went through because they drive my mission and they drive my purpose. So it's like this balance of what to hold onto.

Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, since writing this book, I know that you actually found new documentation that you uncovered From the day you were admitted. I know you actually brought it here to share with us.

I absolutely, I did.

Would you be comfortable reading that to us now?

A couple weeks ago, I actually got documentation from Fairmount. And Fairmount was the first institution I was in, if anybody doesn't know. And these are notes written by an RN, and I'm just gonna read it to you. These are full Fairmount official notes signed off by a nurse and everything. It says here 5/6/16. So that was the date I went in 4 days before my 12th birthday. This is on admission and it's 4:25 PM. So this is that afternoon that the nurse is talking to my mom. It said, mom also reiterated, reiterated to RN that patient is not to have any sugar, underlined in all caps, any sugar. And while I find that, why I find that important or why I find that interesting is because, yeah, sure. You know, as a parent, you know, you're allowed to limit how much sugar you give to your kids, you know, to keep 'em healthy and whatnot. But she had just dumped me in an institution with no reason to, besides the fact that she wanted to get me outta the house so that I wouldn't keep trying to show the world what she was doing. So she dumps me in this institution and she reiterates to the nurse that I'm not to have any sugar.

So that's the priority, right? That's, that's the priority. It's insane to me. Mom explained that patient does not know how to use a phone and doesn't know anyone's phone numbers. And that's crazy. So I was, I was put here. I don't know how to use a phone and I didn't, and I don't have any phone numbers. RN offered to assist patient in calling mom. So the RN actually offered to help me because I didn't know how to use any phones or have any phone numbers. And my mom replied. I'm going to be running around. My daughters have a prom, and I think he needs some time to think about what he has done. I mean, she's done, she's just left her kid in an institution. She's just abandoned him. So yeah, basically she doesn't want to call me because she's more worried about a prom, doesn't want me, she's more worried about me not having any sugar. Mom expressed concerns of father attempting to contact facility. RN also informed mom of Childline call being placed. And my mom stated, in quotes, he always tells wild stories. I've been investigated before. Yes, I have a room that I lock him in, and a psychiatrist approved that.

So she has admitted right here on a document that she has, does in fact have a room that she locks me in, and then tries to say that a psychiatrist approved it, which no psychiatrist would ever approve that. Ever. A psychiatrist would never give that kind of advice to lock your child in a room. Mom also stated that now CYS is going to contact father, who will sell this to the tabloids and TMZ. So she's fully paranoid because she knows what she's done. She's admitted to locking me in a room, blames it on a psychiatrist, doesn't want to call me, is more worried about a prom, and is more worried about me not having any sugar. Then it says, Mom warned RN that if Father sells the story, the media will be on our campus attempting to interview and take pictures. RN assured Mom that her son is safe, provided all necessary contact info, and emailed a copy of our unit information to Mom's personal email. It's on paper. It's in writing. She's just admitted to the room that she had me locked in.

Has she denied that previously?

She's denied it previously publicly, saying that she has never done any of that. And right here on a legal medical document, it is quoted that she has admitted to locking me in a room. One more time. Yes, I have a room that I lock him in, but his psychiatrist approved that.

It's interesting that If you're handing over your child to Fairmount Behavioral Health System, which is what it says on the notes, right? And then the only reference to behavior is, I think he needs some time to think about what he has done.

It shows that she has put me in here for no legitimate reasons, uh, besides the fact that she wants me to think about what I've done, which is constantly Try to tell the world what is going on and what I've been going through. But she can't have that because her reputation cannot be ruined. Her reputation as America's best mother brings in a lot of money. I never thought, uh, an RN that signed off here, that her conversation would be recorded between my mom. But she just admitted to locking me in a room, which is full-on child abuse.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing this with us. I know that these are, you know, exclusive documents that haven't been seen or heard before and—

Never before.

You just said to me earlier that the natural time there was like 7 to 10 days. You were there for 20 months.

Right.

What was the hardest thing about being in the institution? Like, what was that experience like? What was the most difficult thing?

Besides the fact that a lot of the staff there Have been, I mean, that place has been investigated plenty of times for neglect and for like sexual abuse and crazy things. And like, they have a lot of cases against them. Some of the most difficult things for me were, well, treatment, the treatment I faced from the staff. Um, and another difficult thing was the first week, every day I wake up and say, oh, you know, I'm almost out of here. It's about a week. I've asked the staff, hey, how long do kids usually stay here? And the staff say, yeah, 7 to 10 days. So, you know, I'd wake up for the first week and say, hey, like, yeah, I'm almost done. I'm, you know, you know, I don't know if I'm going to go home, but maybe when I go home, maybe my mom will forgive me. Maybe this is just her testing me and just, you know, getting a little break. And then when I come home that, you know, she'll treat me better. And it scared me too, because I really didn't want to go home, but then it became 1 month of waking up every morning and saying, oh, maybe it'll be tomorrow.

And then it became 6 months and I'd go to bed at night and say, I'm probably going to leave, you know, soon. It's been 6 months. And then it became 10 months and then a year and then a year and a half and then 20 months. Imagine for 2 years, from 11 to 13, being alone, getting minimal phone calls, getting one visit, thinking about your family and what they're doing, thinking about your siblings at school having fun with their friends, thinking about, you know, what are they filming about? What vacations are they taking? What are they up to? What's the outside world up to? What's going on in the world? You really can't capture that feeling, but it really, at that age, was an insane feeling to have. Like, when am I actually getting out of here? Am I going to be here forever? Because at a certain point, I was like, I'm going to, I'm going to be here till I'm, till I'm 18, till I'm, till I can sign myself out or whatever. I don't know. I got no answers.

I asked.

The staff, the doctors for answers. Nobody had an answer for me. Another thing was that since kids only stay there 7 to 10 days, there's no formal education program. I didn't have education for 2 years. That's illegal. Fairmount Behavioral Health Systems in Philadelphia, they didn't educate me. I had no education. So something happened. Somebody paid somebody a lot of money. Something happened. That I was not supposed to be there that long. And I was held and not educated.

That's what you believe, that there was some involvement?

I believe that there was, there was foul play somewhere in there, definitely, 100%. I mean, my mom was a very powerful person back then, and something happened that, that I was just constantly kept there. I'm digging into that now. Let's just say that. I'm gonna find out what happened. But one thing that was really hard for me, I was always really close with my siblings, right? When I lived at home, up until the separation, when we started to get separated and I would eat meals separately and I didn't go to school with them and I didn't play outside with them. She kept us very separate, probably cuz she didn't want my influence of not wanting to be on the show. She didn't want it to rub off on them. And she didn't want them to see what she was doing to me. But before that, we were always very close. We were a pack. So in Fairmount, a kid would come in and he'd stay for a week. And in that week, we'd become best friends. We'd share our vulnerable stories and where we're from and what we like to do and what our hobbies are.

We're kids, you know? So we'd like, we would just like be kids and like talk about boy stuff and like, you know, cars and And video games and stuff like that. And like, they would tell me about video games cuz I never played video games, but like all that kind of stuff. And like, we'd talk about like Fast and Furious, like my favorite movies. Those are my favorite movies still. We'd talk about stuff like that and then it'd be time for them to leave and they'd leave. So that, that was a week. And then somebody else would come in and I'd form a bond with them and they'd become my best friend. And we'd play basketball outside on the court that they had there. And, uh, you know, we'd laugh and whatever. And the only comfort in that place was when you could share a bond with somebody. A lot of the kids were dangerous, but there was some that you could form bonds with. And they would come in for a very short amount of time and leave. It would also make me wonder, like, why am I still here? Like, they're, they're coming in.

And leaving, and I'm here. Like, what's going on?

It's really hard because I feel like you wanted someone to understand you, but people weren't trying. It's almost like before you got to the institution, you wanted to share, but you couldn't because otherwise you'd be unsafe. And now you're in the institution and it's unsafe for completely different reasons. Right. How did you even manage to get out?

This kid came in, he was a couple years older than me, and, uh, his name was Zach. And I, I wrote a letter, which I was very secretive about because I had this feeling I was in there for so long that nobody really wanted me to get out. So I, I wrote this letter in crayon and I folded it up real small. It was on a couple of pages, so I really tried to fold it up small. And I— and he was leaving the next day and I said, you need to take this out. I told him who my family was and about the TV show. And I said, find my father's social media. His name's John Gosselin and reach out to him and tell him where I am and that he needs to come and get me because my mom would not tell my dad where I was. She had sole custody of me. She would not tell him. And I, I talked to Zach today still, and he told me, he's like, he's like, dude, I, I put that note in my underwear. 'Cause he's like, they search your belongings and stuff when you leave.

He's like, I put that note in my underwear. I walked out with it. He reached out to my dad's agent at the time and they, they had to ask him like a bunch of questions to make sure it was legit, that he wasn't just making this claim. 'Cause a lot of people were making claims like they knew where I was just to like, I don't know, like mess with my dad, I guess. But. He got through all that and he got the letter to my dad. And I had found the address of the place on like a brochure laying around in Fairmount. And I wrote the address and I just was like, I need you to come get me. Like, please. It's like, you're my hero. Just, I need you to come get me outta here. And after that, my dad officially knew where I was. But up until that point, he had no idea where I was. And so he was able to go to court. And say like, I know where Colin is. And he gave all the information in court and like started the process to get me outta there. You know, these things take a while.

So it was still about, you know, maybe a little less than a year. And then finally I, I got outta there. But the crazy part is when that, that court process started, right? It started once my dad got that letter and he was like fighting for to get custody of me. From my mom. Literally the day he got custody, he went to Fairmount to go and try to pick me up and they, or he called Fairmount or something and they said he, I'd been moved, which makes me think back because they rushed having me moved to a facility across the state, 4 and a half hours away. So I believe my mom was playing a game of hot potato and moved me very fast. So that my dad couldn't get me. But they moved me to a residential facility, which I was there for another year. And I, I guess that was to like integrate back into society. But the biggest thing is that I was moved so fast as soon as my dad got, uh, I think joint custody of me. So that's also crazy. That's, I mean, it's insane that she put that much effort into making sure he couldn't have me because I'll tell you why people would say like, oh, why didn't, you know, I, I've heard this, I've seen this in the comments before on social media.

Like, why didn't it, you know, if Kate Kate didn't want Colin, why didn't she just give him to John?

Yeah.

His dad. Well, why do you guys think? You know, it would all gone out there. I would've told him about the abuse and I would've said, I want to use my voice even at that age. And I, I want people to know what's going on in the home. And her show would've been done. It would've been canceled. Her money would've been gone. All that money that she loved, all that attention she loved, her whole reputation of people praising her would've gone out the window. I got on the phone with him and it was a very emotional first call. I hadn't heard his voice in years cuz she hadn't let me visit him prior.

What did he say to you?

That phone call, I don't remember like exactly, um, but I do remember that a lot of it was him saying like, I got you, we're gonna do this, it's gonna be okay. Cuz, uh, a lot of what I remember was crying. I was like crying on this like phone. It was like one of the ones with the cord, like an office phone. And I'm like crying and my tears are like going all over the phone. And, uh, I just felt this relief. How I, if that was the first time in like about 2 and a half years that, well, the 2 and a half years that I'd been in institution, because this, I started talking about 6 months into being into the, into the residential treatment facility. So I guess this was all going on since. I was 8. So, I mean, it was the first time in like almost 6 years that I felt this relief that things would change. And he just kept saying, it's okay, we're going to get you out of here. He's like, I went to court and just follow through with the program and whatever, and it's going to work.

And it did because a couple months after that, I was told I was going home and I went to live with my dad. And I met Colleen and, uh, even today she's who I call mom. And, you know, I, I've made a post about her praising her for being the strongest woman I know for everything she's done for me because of the simple fact, you know, she loved me and showed up for me. And when somebody constantly shows up for you and is present and is there for you, Over and over and over when you've never had that from a mother figure. That is what healed me. I didn't have that from my mom. I had the complete opposite and many worse things, but Colleen showed up and loved me, and my dad showed up and loved me, and my sister was there, and Colleen's kids, who I consider siblings, uh, and just having that family dynamic and everybody that was constantly there for me. It changed everything in my heart and how I felt. And, you know, when I came home, I still did struggle a lot. I wasn't perfect. For years after I came home, I'd still, I still had so much grief and anger, and I just, I still dealt with so much.

It wasn't fixed instantly. I had to learn how to trust people again. I had to learn how to trust Colleen again as a mother figure. So, I mean, for years, even into high school, It was still difficult, but progressively, progressively, um, I started to heal and realize that people still show up for me even when I make mistakes. And they don't beat me and they don't abandon me and they don't exploit me and they don't use me to make money. To me, that was, that meant all the difference.

Was there a part of you that had to heal your relationship with your dad as well? Because Did any part of you feel abandoned by him initially?

Yes, absolutely. And I write about this because I was told, uh, you know, I was told by my mom, like, your dad doesn't wanna see you. And my mom told my dad, like, Colin doesn't wanna see you. Like, we were told on both ends, like, you can't see each other. They don't, you know, this person doesn't see you, so-and-so. I mean, we were both told the same lie. Um, and so I was like, Dad, like, you didn't want to see me. And he's like, what are you talking about? I was like, I was told, like, by my mom, like, you don't want to see me. For all those years after being told that, it kind of like was just like ruminating in my brain. Like, wow, like my dad doesn't want to see me. But I, I knew that he was my only hope. So even though when I wrote that letter, even though I knew At the time, or so I thought, that my dad wants nothing to do with me. I had no other options. I had to make a move, even if it was going to be difficult. So we really had to heal our relationship.

And we had struggles. It wasn't all sunshine and rainbows. I was a preteen boy with anger towards my mom that had had to defend himself in an institution living with Guys much older that would roughhouse and make fun of me. Like, I had all this stuff I had to get through. And I also had this understanding that my dad, like, basically, like, left me out for the wolves because he didn't want to see me back then. And my mom was doing horrible things. So I had, I felt like I just, I felt like my dad eliminated my option to, to help me then. So. Um, we had to really work on our relationship. And like I said, the trust with Colleen, I had to learn to trust another woman. Like, I had to work on so many relationships because of the damage that my mom and these institutions and people coming and going in the institutions and the staff in the institutions. I had to work on so many relationships because of all the damage that wasn't— that was done to me. And it made it really difficult.

How did you even begin to do that work on yourself? I can't imagine.

I had this realization like a couple years after coming home and I like, I wasn't doing too well. I was like, you know, I was acting out in school and I still got good grades, but I just, I just was basically trying to justify what had been done to me by being reckless. But I had this realization that because I was wrongfully hurt and imprisoned, And all these things that were done to me wrongfully, like, why would I go and do that to other people just because I'm angry, just because I'm mad, just because I lost 3 years of my childhood? Why should I go and do that to everybody else? And I was like, what I really should do is work on my problems, is talk to my family that's here for me, accept their love. Learn to trust them, grow, get good grades in school, and be successful because success is the best revenge. And everything after all the abuse I faced and then went on camera as a kid and I was like withdrawn and like I looked out of it, my mom used all that to say that. Oh, Colin, he's troubled, he needs help.

That's why I sent him away. So because I looked how I looked on camera after facing what she did to me off camera, because I looked that way, she used that to say, oh, he just needs help. And like, when my siblings would go off to school and I was at home and she was doing what she was doing to me, and she'd go and get them from the bus stop. I'd be in the back of the car looking all like withdrawn and sad and mopey. And she'd say like, your brother, oh, he just has problems. That's why he's like that. So when she sent me away, she used that to justify that like I have all these problems. And I realized, I'm like, if I just use the anger of what she wrongfully did to me and go and do all these things, then her fabrication may come true. So I decided that because what was wrongfully done to me and what she wrongfully told the public I'm gonna use my pain and heal people. And I always say, hurt people heal people. It's a true thing. When you understand the pain, you want nothing more than to just help heal others.

And so they don't feel that pain. And little by little, I learned to get my act together and I worked on myself and really tried to like tell myself like, you can do this. You can be better. Turn that pain into purpose.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's impressive, man. Like today I'm meeting a kind, genuine, brave, smart young man. And thank you. From the moment you walked in today, you know, just your energy, your attitude, your approach. And if I'd met you under any other circumstances, I could never have imagined what you'd been through before the person I'm meeting today.

We never know what other people have been through. That's important. There's a lot of people who have like insane stories and I always feel like those who have had the toughest upbringings and the hardest experiences, a lot of them, you know, when they get on the right side of it, they're the strongest people. And I think that's, I see that a lot and that inspires me to be better every day because I can use that pain and I can use it to help others and I can use my story to help others. And that's exactly what I should do. And that's exactly what I'm gonna keep doing.

I've got a few more questions for you, Colin, that I wanted to ask you. I know at one point you wanted to become a Marine.

Yes.

Why was that important to you? And what happened with your mom that you couldn't see that dream through?

So I was in JROTC in high school, which is like a Junior Reserves Officer Training Corps. It's like a pre-military high school kind of thing. And it's like a leadership program, if I could best describe it. But after high school, I had this burning desire to join the Marine Corps because I had heard, I had seen presentations in school from all the different recruiters and like the Army recruiter was like, oh, like, you know, you know, you get promoted the fastest and you get to pick your MOS and like, you know, you get all these like good benefits. Same thing in the Air Force and the Marine recruiter. Like, he just like, I talked to him privately and he straight up told me like, This is gonna be the hardest thing you've ever done. And I was thinking like, I've done very difficult things. Bring it on. Basically, that's what my attitude was. I was like, I don't care about the pay. I don't care about the promotion, the rank, any of that. And he told me about the standard that Marines carry themselves to. And I was like, that really spoke to me, that standard and the fact that this was gonna be super difficult.

I mean, that's all I needed to hear. And I was like, sign me up. So I signed up and I go to boot camp and I'm, I'm a few weeks away, not a few, a couple of weeks away. I'm like a week and a half away from going to the Crucible, which is the final challenge on Parris Island for boot camp. And once you pass that, you graduate, you're a Marine. I had done a Vice documentary before going to boot camp a couple months before, and it had aired around the time I went to boot camp. So My mom goes publicly in response to that documentary and says, it's not true what he's saying, and throws all these diagnoses in the air, like things she doesn't even know what they mean. She's like, he has OCD and ADHD and bipolar and autism. Like, she's like saying I have all these diagnoses, right? And somebody gets wind of it on Parris Island and they're like, you know, we've We need to look into this. And as of right now, we, you know, we can't verify if these are true or not. We can only speculate based on what we've seen.

And, you know, they knew who I was. They knew I was a public figure. And they're like, we need you to get an evaluation for these diagnoses and just get a full evaluation for anything. But unfortunately, we're gonna have to let you go, son. Just like that. And I was like, I can't continue training. And I, I told them there in the office, I'll say it was, it was a Navy officer. I was like pulled into like the medical building talking to like this Naval officer. And I was like, I, I've done it all the way through. It's like, I'm almost done. I was like, I'll tell you right now, when I get that psych eval, it's going to come back clear. I was like, I just want to graduate and be a Marine. I was like, This brotherhood that I've just discovered in just, in just, in just the first part, in just training. I mean, I can imagine how it is all the way through the first 4 years of, you know, being a Marine. I was like, this brotherhood, this sense of family, I mean, this camaraderie, that was everything to me.

And that was another thing that sold me on the Marines. It was the fact that you have— it's, it's like the most strongest It's the strongest bond and form of brotherhood and family that you could have. And he just told me, we're going to have to let you go, son. You got to get that. You got to get a psych eval done. We have information to believe that you may have a certain set of diagnoses and you just have to get evaluated to, uh, to prove that they aren't there so we can let you continue. Because I, and I understand, and there's no wrongdoing by the Marine Corps because it would be a liability if they, you know, did let me through and I did have those things. So I go home and I kid you not, the first week that I'm home, I'm like calling around to all these, all these doctors, all these, uh, like psychologists and stuff. And I'm like, I, I want to get an evaluation. And they're like telling me, they're like, like a full evaluation? I'm like, yeah. And they're like, they're pretty expensive. You know, they charge by the hour a lot.

And so I ended up paying like between like $2,000 and $3,000. And I used all my money that I made in bootcamp, which it's not much. I had like $4,000 from bootcamp saved up. So I'm like, I'm like, screw it. I'm like, this is worth it to me. So I go and I get the psych eval done. It's like a 5 to 6 hour long process. I'm doing all these, answering these questions and they did like in something like an MMPI or whatever, like just basically asking me all these questions, making me do all these tests. And, you know, just a full evaluation. It took hours long of just getting to know everything about me. I answered like 400 questions. In like a computer system that like evaluates and like did all these like tests by the book, like did everything. He did a full evaluation and it was, he ruled out the 6 diagnoses that my mom claimed I had. Even after not having those 6 diagnoses that were listed, he had ruled those out. They were all unfounded and he had no reason to believe that there were any other further diagnoses as well.

And by the way, going into that evaluation, I knew that was going to be the result, but to see it on paper from a doctor, and, and I knew I was like, I'm going to take this to the press so she can't keep saying, oh, Colin's this and Colin's that. I mean, it was, it was a relief.

Did you take it to the press?

I did take it to the press, and that, that full evaluation signed off by the doctor and everything, it's released, and it's also going to be in my book, like the full picture of I wasn't surprised that was the outcome. I was relieved that it was on paper. She'd been labeling me for years, saying that I was her special needs son when all I was was hurt, misunderstood, and unwilling to be a part of her circus. And because I was a little bit rebellious against being in front of the cameras, she labeled me special needs and sent me off.

I mean, your mom's talked about taking legal action against you because of this book. She's talked publicly about that.

My mom has claimed that because she's a public figure, she can't take legal action or whatever. Yes, you can. Anybody can go and sue for defamation. But I'll tell you, and I'll say this right now publicly, she won't. Because I have evidence that she has abused me. And, uh, if she does decide to take legal action, she will lose. And, um, I can say that confidently. If you think that was a lot of evidence of her admitting to locking me in a room, I have more. Not that I think that any kid should have to prove with documentation that they were abused. We should listen to their stories and hear them and hear their voices and look for the signs. But I will tell you now that her excuse of, oh, I can't because I'm a public figure, it was an excuse. She won't do it. And I've also asked her to do a lie detector test. where we're hooked up to the polygraph. And literally, I don't know exactly how it works, but I think it's based on heartbeat and like fluctuations in body, like temperature and all that. I've asked her to do that and I confidently want to do one, but, uh, she hasn't responded on that.

So.

Has your mom tried to reach out directly to you at all?

No, she has not.

Never?

Never.

Would you want her to?

If she were to reach out to me, I would hope it would be an apology, her taking accountability for her actions. But other than that, there's a lot that must be done first, and there's a lot that must come to light. And, you know, everything was always the Kate Gosselin Show and the America's Best Mom Show, but I don't think she can let that go, and she doesn't want to let that go. It's not just the fact that, like, people make mistakes and she's made mistakes. She intentionally did horrible things. And like I said, there's a lot that must be done. There's a lot that will be done. My greatest intention is not to go out there and soil my mom and throw dirt at her. It is to advocate for children who have faced abuse, exploitation, abandonment, who have tried, who have been silenced and who have been overlooked by adults who should have cared for them. That is my number one intention, and I will never stop. It's not to soil my mom's name. It is to advocate for children.

Have you spoken to your siblings at all?

I have not.

Would you want that?

I would absolutely want to speak to them. It's just a very difficult dynamic when they were told one side of the story that they're, you know, like I said, the bus stop story where every day she'd pick them up from school at the bus stop and I'd be in the back seat. I sat in the back left in our van and I'd be looking out the window and be withdrawn from every, from all my day's events. And they'd be happy talking about their teachers and they'd be like, Why is our brother acting different? Like, he's weird. He's weird. And they'd see me rebel against filming and they'd say, he's rebellious. He's angry. He has problems. Because they would see me rebel against the cameras and my mom. And of course I was rebellious. I wasn't perfect. It wasn't just like, oh, I don't want to film. I'm going to walk away. I fully made it voiced in my, in my, in my facial expressions, in my body language. I would have temper tantrums sometimes because I didn't want to be on camera. And they would just follow me around and film the temper tantrum. And then I was like, I just, I don't want to be on camera.

And then they would go to school, my siblings, and have a fun day at school, at a normal school. And I'd have to sit here with this homeschool teacher. And the days that she wasn't there homeschooling me, I would have to face my mother's wrath. And then they would see me and come home and see this damaged, broken, Weird, quiet kid. And then my mom would tell them, oh guys, like, it's just because your brother, he has problems. He has problems. And she would just build all this up. So today, I don't even know them at all. I don't know what their voices sound like. I can barely remember what they look like or what they'd look like today. And we also had a very different version of our own childhood. A lot of people don't understand how siblings can grow up in the same home but have a very different version of their childhood, but it's a real thing. And I mean, it made it easier because we had such a big house, so she kept me separate. Like, I didn't eat meals with my siblings. They would like be in the family room with their iPads and I'd be like on the whole other side of the house in my room.

Like, so I mean, it made it easy to separate us physically. But then with all these other, like, mental games she was playing with them. And then when I, once she got me out of the house and sent me to institution, it was very easy for her then to just control the narrative and say, your brother's getting the help he needs. And, you know, he has a lot of problems and he has this and that and he's getting the help he needs.

Thank you for being so vulnerable, open, clear today with us about your story. And of course, the book goes into so much more detail.

so much more context, so much more vulnerability, emotion. Yeah.

I recommend people read the book because I think it will take them into understanding so much more about the stories and experiences you've shared with us.

Through the eyes of a child who, who has been through it. And I think it's important for people to understand that.

Yeah.

And I've dedicated the book to the reader, actually. And told them that it is their responsibility, with the information I've given them firsthand from my experience, it is their responsibility as adults, as anybody, to speak up when you see something. Take the time, take the risk. It might be scary to say something when you see something that doesn't seem right. Step out of that comfort zone, step out of what you're comfortable doing, because it may save a kid's life. It may save a child's life and their childhood. And those things that I talked that happened to them that stay with them forever, you might just be able to prevent that. That's why I dedicated the book to the reader, to every reader who picks up that book and opens it and reads from my experience firsthand. It is your job to advocate, to look out, and to protect children.

Colin, we've heard about your mission, your purpose. We've heard about your past. Talk to me about who you are today as a person. I know you're studying. What are you studying? How long have you got left? Talk to me about you.

So I'm currently, I'm in college. I'm in my second year. I would have been in my third year, but you know, I went off to the Marines. I'm in for finance. It's just something that, that kind of just piqued my interest. But what I really want to do is hopefully one day I'd like to have the opportunity to open my own foundation. Not an institution, a foundation, a place where children can come that I would work at, that I'd be at present helping them. I don't want to be a doctor. I don't want to be a nurse. I don't want to be a psychologist. I want to be somebody who is present at a foundation where kids can come and be safe and be understood. And firsthand, I know how to understand that looking at a child. So that's what I really want. That's the future. But today I'm studying in school, just hoping to get my bachelor's. I have a pressure washing business that I opened about a year ago. It's fun in the summer, just washing houses. I have a buddy that works with me. We have a lot of fun. And I'm hoping with this book that we can go around the country and do speaking engagements and book tours, and I'll be able to just really connect With the readers and with audiences who may have not even read the book and just be able to speak on my experiences.

And, uh, you know, college and pressure washing, the pressure washing business and all that, that's just the little stuff. The big thing is that I want this book to turn into a movement and I want it to be the start of the action that we all take together to change these systems. The, you know, Children and Youth Services, SAMHSA, all of those services. I want this to be that stepping stone, and I want to turn this book into a movement that I go everywhere and speak about and, and, and tell people and instill it in their heart to actively want to make that change and be the advocate for children.

Colin, thank you for writing In the Shadow of Eight.

Thank you.

And, uh, thank you for sharing your story with me. and now the world through this book that again, I hope many, many read. And I think what you're doing is of utmost importance, especially right now in the world we live in. And I support you and I'm—

Thank you.

Here to support you continuously. And yeah, thank you so much for sharing your story with me.

Thank you. Thank you, Jay.

Really grateful. Thank you, Colin.

Thank you.