Transcript of Lena Waithe New

DEBORAH: Hello, everyone. Welcome to another episode of Good Hang. We are very excited about our guest today. It is Lena Waithe. Writer, producer, actor. Lena does so many things so well, and she's the coolest. And we're gonna get into how cool she is today. We're gonna get into the way she likes to work. We're gonna talk about our love of Chicago. We're gonna talk about Blockbuster, a place where you had to go and rent videos in person. We're gonna talk about the fact that she is the first Black woman to ever win a Primetime Emmy in Comedy Writing. We're gonna talk about couples therapy. We're gonna get into it. But before we do that, um, we always have this section of the show where we speak to somebody who knows our guest, who wants to speak well behind their back and give me some questions to ask. And joining me are the two directors, Tony Award-winning directors, um, of, uh, Cats: Jellicle Ball, the show that is out on Broadway as we speak. And that Lena is a producer on. And so, uh, let's hear from, uh, Jalen Levinson and Bill Rauch. Gentlemen, hello. All right, if you've been putting off car shopping because it sounds like a whole thing, buying your car online on AutoTrader makes it way easier.

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Hi, Bill.

Hi, Jalen. Nice to meet you. By the way, congratulations, Tony winners.

That did happen.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Before we talk about our guests, just talk me through the evening of the Tonys, which is my absolute favorite award show. Yeah.

It was very surreal. I was there with my mother and my partner. And me and Bill sat by each other, and we had to keep playing musical chairs because we— Bill had family, I had family. We wanted to, like, share the time that we sat by them during the award show. And luckily—

Wait, hold on. Let's— I'm going to pause right there. You guys were making sure that you gave everyone in your family enough time?

Well, yeah.

Absolutely.

We need to talk. This is why you can't bring family to award shows. Well, for those people that haven't had the pleasure of coming to Broadway and seeing Jellicle Ball, can you just explain what it is?

It is Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical Cats set in the ballroom scene that grew out of Harlem. And so, our cats are not cats. They're human beings competing in a competitive ball. And, uh— I have never been part of a project in my whole life that more people love. Like, whatever your age, whatever your relationship to ballroom, whatever your relationship to Andrew Lloyd Webber's musical, people who love it, people who think they hate it, uh, everybody has a— just an overwhelmingly positive experience at the Jellicle Ball.

And Jaelin, can you explain, when you say ballroom, what that means?

Yeah, so ballroom is an underground queer culture that really started in New York around 1970, '71, '72. And really, the main architect at the very beginning was a powerful, beautiful woman named Crystal LaBeija, who was a trans woman of color who had felt rejected by the queer pageant scene and left that scene to start what we know to be ballroom. And when I say ballroom as a culture, much like hip-hop, it has multiple elements. So ballroom is both an artistic way of expressing oneself, it is competition, it is vogue, it is all of those kind of, um, aesthetic things that we understand about the craft, but it's also a chosen family structure that's been organized since 1972. And the structure is centered around the house, and the house mother, and the house father, and really springs out of a need for young queer kids who needed family at a very specific point, and they're coming to themselves to catch them when maybe their biological families were not able to do so.

It's such a great transition into Lena Waithe because her work and her life is kind of a living example of sharing herself with the world, trying to figure out how to mentor other people, try to make people feel seen and feel included. And, you know, as a— Black, queer woman. She is breaking barriers everywhere she goes. She's the first here, she's the first there. She's supporting and giving her voice to all different kinds of projects. And she is a producer on your show.

That's right.

How did that come to be?

She saw it when we did it downtown. She saw the Off-Broadway production, and she flipped over it, and she brought Cynthia Erivo to see it. And she just let us know, "If this thing can happen on Broadway, I want to be part of it. I want to be part of making it happen." And she was present from one of our first rehearsals in the rehearsal room, right on through previews, right on through the run. She's been an actively engaged producer in a beautiful way.

What does a producer on Broadway need to do?

Well, they need to find us some money.

Exactly.

That's a big part of it. Exactly. The art of the commerce. But apart from that, also, Lena is, you know, a public figure with a platform and is able to shepherd eyes to issues that she really cares about. And I know one of the things that Lena really cares about in this season in her life is, like, how to get people off their phones and into a room together. And so, I'm glad that Cats is a show that she feels is within that mission. I know she's starting to do a lot of theater work herself, but, um, yeah, letting people know that this kind of getting up out of your couch, leaving your house, and being in a room with strangers, as weird as that kink is, might be the only way for us to make it through the next few years.

I feel like New York is often, like, leading by example how it feels to be among a lot of people, right? New York is always bustling. And even just the recent Knicks win is a great example a great example of watching people, you know, literally rub shoulders and enjoy something together.

You can get the high from the Knicks winning every day at Casa Jellicle Ball.

Every day.

It is that exciting.

It is that thrilling. It builds community in that direct a way.

Absolutely.

Not untrue.

And what is she— What's Lena like as a person? 'Cause I like to speak well behind people's back, and I found Lena to be really, really, like, charming, curious, kind. What's it been like to get to know her? What kind of person is she?

She's so dope. She's so cool. And—

This is the thing I'm a little worried about. She's so cool.

Yeah, she is.

That is true.

Like, I already put on my outfit today, and I looked— just before I came in, I looked in the mirror and I went, "Oh, fu— Jesus Christ." Like, she's— you cannot beat— you can't beat— she's just so cool.

I know, but you're cool too, Amy.

Oh my God, I'm not fishing, but thank you.

Yeah, yeah.

She's also—

she's so at ease with herself that it puts you at ease. So, it's just gonna be so fun to hang out with her.

So, we have a thing here where we ask to get a question for our guest. And you guys have been working with Lena. You know her professionally. We're gonna get into a bunch of different things that she does, but is there anything that you think I should ask her? Big, small, silly, important, that you'd want to hear her talk about?

When did you first know in your soul that you were an artist?

Great. It's such a theater question.

Yeah!

That is such a theater question.

I love it.

Well, let's all get in a circle. Let's ask each other this.

Right.

Direct eye contact.

While we give each other back rubs in the circle.

Yep.

Love it.

One is, like, I've also seen Lena a lot on the dance floor. And, you know, however cool she is in life, she is 100 times cooler on the dance floor. And I'm always like, always trying to think about how to maintain coolness on the dance floor. And I would ask her, who does she like to see on the dance floor? Like, when she goes out, she's like, "Ah, that person's here. I know the party, the dancing is gonna be on 10." So I would be curious to know what that list is for her.

Oh, these are incredible questions. You guys are such good directors. Well, thank you guys so much for this time. I know Lena will be thrilled that we talked.

And, um, it—

It means a lot. Congratulations again on your success and on your artistry and the great work that you do and the way that you're putting, like you said, so much joy into the world.

Rubber glue back to you, Amy. You're doing really joyful work, and we need this podcast and this platform in the world right now.

Absolutely.

Thanks. Let's just keep trying to do it against the rising tide of nonsense. Thank you both. Pleasure to meet you both.

We love you, Lena!

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Woo-hoo-hoo!

I was really, really looking forward to today just because we get to hang out.

I mean, come on.

I know.

We like to do this when we're not on camera.

I know.

That's the cool part.

Well, it's been, um, Lena Waithe is here, everybody.

Hi.

Very exciting. How's your mic?

Good, good. I'm just like placing it. I don't have a hat on, which I was like debating, like, do I wear a hat? I'm feeling good about the no hat.

Yeah, I liked, I mean, Lena, everything you wear is so cool.

It's like Lena.

Like everything you wear, hat, you take it off, it looks cool. Come on. Coolest hat ever.

I wear my own clothes. This is my own, my own thing. Hip as shit right here.

Yeah, I mean, it's like, I wanna get into that actually, 'cause it's kind of, I wanna talk to you about your look, your style, and also just the fact that like, you're like my coolest friend. We'll get there, we'll get there. Okay. You're the best. So I heard you say something in another podcast that I love and I've been thinking about it a lot.

Jesus, who knows?

No, but I think it was another podcast or, Or TikTok, probably.

But okay. Not on there.

No, but those are, that's where I get all my information. Oh, okay.

You and everybody else.

Yeah, I know. But you said like, if you're, you said something that I love, which is if you're afraid that people are gonna steal your ideas, you should have more ideas.

That is true. I did say that. Follow the podcast. Yeah.

And it's such a great, it's, it's, I, I totally agree. Can you tell me what you mean by that?

Okay. This is a really good way to kick off. Such a great question.

Okay.

Because that's why you have a Peabody. Here's the deal. There's this interesting debate that happens where a lot of up-and-coming writers, if you will, talk about, how do I protect my ideas? Should I get them copywritten? Should I, like, register them with the WGA? And I always have a very— I guess it's a hot take response, which is I don't believe someone can steal your idea.

Say more. I love it.

I just feel like if I tried to write my version of Parks and Rec, it wouldn't be Parks and Rec. It would be something else. Even if we all have the same, like, idea, it's gonna be different because it's coming from two completely different writers. There's no way to copy and paste an idea. And also, artists, I believe, are oftentimes in the same wave. There's a reason why sometimes you see— there's a lot of vampire stuff happening right now. There's a lot of horror going on over here. And it's just because artists are sort of in their silo, they're doing their thing, and then they kind of decide, "Oh, I'm gonna write this," or, "This is— this is what I'm doing." This is very similar to this thing.

Mm-hmm.

I just don't buy it.

Well, what I love about it is it's like, it's the opposite of grasping energy. Yeah. Right. Which is like, I have this idea, the idea is so important, it's my one idea. And also, I, I, as I've gotten older, I feel like the idea is part of, part of it, but so much of it is people and process too. Like, yeah, an idea can only go so far.

Right.

And it's just in, in thinking about the theme for this pod today, I was thinking about just that. Cuz I feel like that statement kind of defines your career. Mm-hmm. Like you, you do so many different things. You produce, you write, you act, you know, you're, you do a podcast, you, you, you're in theater, you're in TV. Like you have this, this way of moving through the world creatively that doesn't feel like your last idea was your best idea.

Mm-hmm.

And that you're grasping too hard on any one thing.

Yeah.

Would you think that's, would you say that's true?

Yeah. I think that's really beautifully put. And thank you for saying that. I receive it. Uh, I think that I think you're right. I think people wanna protect what they have. Yeah. And there have been like big cases about people saying this was stolen from this.

This was stolen.

There's those things out there. But I just sort of feel like I'm always evolving as a person. So therefore, the work should be evolving as well. I feel like sometimes you see artists and they just keep kind of doing the same thing and they're sort of similar. And sometimes that works for people. But I think for me, I want my art to always reflect where I am in my life.

Yeah.

And I wanna be in a different place in my life.

And you're never a snob. No. But, you know, like, you like what you like, and you like it passionately. And then you make things— like, you're kind of high-low in what you do and what you make. And also what I love about you is you love TV.

I'm obsessed with television.

Yeah.

I mean—

I know, 'cause it raised us. It raised me too. Yeah, literally.

It was like, you know, I say two-parent household, my mom and the television. I mean—

What were you watching when you were young? Like, what was on TV?

You know, it's interesting, like, I was a kid in the '90s, and I think that was a really interesting time for television. I remember there was a lot of sitcoms happening.

Yeah.

We got "Perfect Strangers." Yes. You got, okay, "The Cosby Show," "A Different World," obviously.

Yeah.

But also, you had stuff like "Martin" and "Living Single," and also, "In Living Color." Yes. And also, we had Nick@Nite, where we could watch the old shows, like "Dick Van Dyke Show," like, you know, obviously, "Mary Tyler Moore Show," which we watched.

Were you watching that, Mary?

You know what's interesting? I didn't really— It's interesting, like, certain music you can't hear. Like, when you're young, jazz doesn't make sense to you.

Yes.

You can't hear it.

Yes, yes, yes.

And I think with Mary, and especially as I got older and I started to watch Friends and Will Grace, Will Grace has a sort of speed to it. And I think with Mary Tyler Moore, it took me a beat because it was a little bit like jazz. It was kind of slow. Like, I mean, like, "Chuckles bites the dust" is one punchline. Like, they're like, "We're gonna hold—" It's like edging for comedy.

They're like, "We're not giving this to you until the end." A lot of people might not know that you You produced a Mary Tyler Moore documentary, and you and I talked about this because we were both working on comedic legends. I did one about Lucy and Desi. And Mary Tyler Moore is just this great example, I think, of what you talk about, which is TV that felt ahead of its time and also just super cozy. What did you, when you got to know her and her work more, It's so well said that it's like a sound you have to get used to, like a music you have to get used to. Yeah. When did you start to understand her music, and what made you want to do that project?

Well, I think I didn't really understand it until I was in college, when I had to sort of watch it. 'Cause I studied writing and producing in television at Columbia College.

I did all that. You wanted to be a TV writer at 7? Yes, I did. How did you know that was a job?

Like, Lena, we thought people were just at the TV talking. Like, there was like that— Making things up.

Veterinarian and astronaut.

I know. And fire person. Um, I, uh, you know, I think I just— I would see names in the credits. And so, that's probably when I see Susan Fells-Hill and Debbie Allen, I knew their names before I knew their faces. Um, and Yvette Lee before she was Yvette Lee Bowser. And of course, I came to know all these women, thank God. Uh, but I just saw that show and I said, "I wanna be a part of this." And also, I was aware that, you know, my mother, my grandmother, my aunt, the neighbors, we would all gather in my grandmother's bedroom 'cause that's where the TV was. And we would just sit and watch TV. And it was very communal. And so that's why I think I knew I wanted to be a part of it. But with Mary, I didn't get it until I was in college, and I got the box set on VHS and, like, watched the best episodes and things like that. And I just sort of was fascinated by her as a human being. So I read her memoir, After All, when I was in college. And that's what really kind of sent me down a rabbit hole.

It was before you could just, like, Google somebody. Totally. You had to read about them. And her memoir is so well written. I think it may be out of print. They might have brought it back. But anyway, After All is a great memoir where she talks about, being an alcoholic, being the daughter of an alcoholic. She talks about losing her son to an accidental suicide, losing her brother to cancer, losing her little sister to a suicide. I mean, she— the woman that turned the world on with her smile dealt with a lot of dark things in her life. And that, to me, that sort of juxtaposition was really fascinating. And I was just fascinated by this person. And I think, you know, for what she did for women in comedy, there was something dainty about her, but not precious. And I definitely think you're one of the descendants of Mary Tyler Moore in terms of someone— Oh, yeah. Thanks for saying that.

She was really— important in my house. I had a young mom, and my mom used to just love and laugh, love that show and laugh at that show. And it is really interesting when you're a kid, you're paying attention what your parents are laughing at. Absolutely. And she, Mary Tyler Moore, reminded me of my mom, 'cause it was like, she was getting more, what is it? Getting more flies with honey than, like she was sweet, but she got her way. And her and Lou Grant, Nick Offerman and I would talk a lot about how Leslie and— Sharon had a very similar kind of, like, you know, gruff, and, you know. But Mary was like— And she was so, like— She was— You could tell she was genuinely funny. And that ensemble on that show was so funny.

Yes. And I think that speaks to why you're such a descendant of hers, because she knows what it is to allow people to shine around her, to not make it all about her, even though it's her show. But she wants everybody to shine.

You know? Carol Burnett was like that too. Is like that too. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. She always talks about wanting people— to win and succeed.

Yeah, you wanna give 'em the scene if you need to.

I love that you were producing that. And you mentioned about watching it on VHS. And I wanna talk about VHS because you used to work at Blockbuster. Yes, I did. Okay? People, there are gonna be people— For the kids that don't know, okay? There are gonna be people listening right now that don't understand—

Don't make me cry.

Don't make me cry.

Don't make me cry. Don't understand how important Blockbuster was. Well, first of all, what was Blockbuster? Because you were like, it was like—

It was paradise, okay?

It was paradise.

A library of film and TV. Uh, it was everything. I used to go there all the time. That's where you had to go to watch old stuff, sometimes see new stuff. This is the crazy thing. Now you just sit on your couch and hit a button. Then you had to go, you had to go hope that in the new release wall that they weren't all gone. You had to go up and say, oh, did somebody return, you know what I'm saying, uh, Face/Off? Did somebody return Face/Off? No. And I remember you go—

for you young people listening, you would go, it was a big date.

Get your popcorn, get your candy.

Yeah, you'd buy it there.

Yeah, you would I would, yeah.

And you'd go often with like friends or date and you'd stand in front of a giant wall of titles. Yeah. Just the sleeve. Yeah. And you'd bring the sleeve over to the thing and like if it was there, it usually meant that they had it, but sometimes they didn't.

They were like, we're out. Most of the time they didn't. If it was a popular movie and you coming in late on a Sunday, like, do y'all have, uh, you got Jurassic Park? Jurassic Park? You have the latest? No, I don't. I got the old one. Okay, cool. I'll take that. You're right.

And then, and then you'd look and you'd wanna get Face/Off and you wouldn't, they wouldn't have it. So you'd be like, what other John Travolta stuff do y'all have?

Okay, what else do we have?

Like, okay, cool.

You got Powder?

I'm like, okay, what's happening? I don't know. Like, it's just like the most random— it's how I got my taste. I would just like rent things based on the COVID I'm like, I'll rent this. I'll watch this. Okay.

Did you have to deal with like the Blockbuster guys who like the, you know, there was like, uh, like the mini Quentin Tarantinos of the world who came up who were like, who were like directors or wannabe and they wanted to talk to you about film and school you?

Okay. Not in Chicago. Like, okay. Like in Anniston, they were like more and also just, like, very obsessed with whatever they were obsessed with. But it was interesting people coming in there. You know, it's like, it was families. We would also get moms saying, like, "Can my son watch this?" And you're like, "Uh, wow. Huh." Like, "Is he into violence and sex? I don't know. I don't know if he should be watching Jungle Fever." Um, I don't know. But no, a lot of parents really were concerned about what the movie was and what was happening. And I just was like, "It depends on how you wanna raise your children, to be honest with you. I don't wanna be a part of this conversation." You got Blockbuster.

You were so tight with Blockbuster. You were so good at being a Blockbuster person at Blockbuster. Blockbuster employee. Blockbuster employee. Wait, did you guys party? Did the Blockbuster employees party a lot?

The one in LA, we definitely got into some trouble. Like, when I transferred— You got transferred? Well, I asked to be transferred. I mean, which is, which is insane. That speaks to who I am. I said, look, I wanna keep this job, transfer me to the one in LA. And they did. And they did. And it's like, that— You must have been an awesome employee. Oh, I was the best. Of course. I was like on top of it. Of course. Come on. I'm like going through the return bin, making sure it's empty. Yeah. You know, talking to people about movies, making recommendations. Like, the LA one was popping.

And then you get to LA because— why do you want to go to LA? Because you want to be acting and writing and you want to—

I went there because there's a semester in LA program through Columbia College in Chicago where they send like 12 students to go to Los Angeles to be on a Hollywood lot. You're writing spec scripts. People don't do that anymore, where you write a script of a show that already exists to see if you can match the voice. And the crazy thing is I could never crack Parks and Rec. Parks and Rec, but I did a 30 Rock spec, and I did a Modern Family spec. And I loved Parks and Rec, but I just could not— I couldn't grab that voice. I just sort of couldn't do it. And not for lack of trying, but what you have to kind of do is sit in your studio apartment and try to, like, come up with, like, what's the A story, what's a B story, what's a this? And I was able to kind of, like, play with those characters a little bit more on 30 Rock than I kind of could on Parks and Rec.

And 30 Rock had, like, speaking of rhythm, had, like, a really percussive, very funny joke-per-ratio kind of situation.

And I know he had a lot of fun with the Tracy. The Tracy thing, you know what I'm saying? Like, I think my about story for him was like, he promised that Obama was gonna be at his birthday party. And, uh— But yeah, that got me out to LA, like writing those spec scripts and stuff like that and being on lots and being an assistant and being an intern.

Well, then you assisted Gina Prince-Bythewood, who is—

Bythewood. She said there's no L in it. It's like Python. When I was her assistant for 2 years, I had to always help people say her last name. It's the most intense. Okay. Like, it's like, think about Python and— and put a B in front of it.

Okay. Bythewood. So you were an assistant for Gina Prince-Bythewood. There you go. Okay, Gina, I love your work. Yes, come on.

She's gonna be so happy. I'm so sorry. Come on, Love and Basketball, Secret Life of Bees. Let's go. Incredible.

Yes. We had Regina Hall on. We had Viola talking about Woman King. Oh, come on.

When is Gina getting here?

I would love to talk to her. Gina's coming 'cause she did Children of Blood and Bone. Oh, what did you learn from her? Like, what'd you learn about being a boss from her?

Oh, God, so much. So much. She's so talented. Okay, so Gina is very cool, and I'll watch her navigate certain situations, And she would never raise her voice. She would never lose her temper. And I think also, it's so funny thinking about Mary Tyler Moore. If you look at the top of that documentary, this guy is asking her this very offensive, like, question, like, "Can a woman have it all? Can a woman be married and have a child and have a career?" And the thing is, is that Mary kind of just sits there in the cut and just responds in a way that's so eloquent and beautiful. Gina was a version of that for me in terms of in person, in real time, where people would challenge her authority or would ask her if she really knew what she was doing. And Gina was like, And Tina would just never be, like, frazzled by it. She would just sort of be calm, respond, and show up, and let the work speak for itself. And so, that's what I really learned from her is, like, don't lose your temper, let the work speak for itself, and, um, yeah, just don't ever lose your cool.

Um, you talk about Aziz. Yes. You talk about getting the part in Master of None, which is where most people met you. Yes. Like, the world kind of got to know you. Mm-hmm. But you've mentioned Allison Jones. Oh, well— So, Allison Jones— who is Allison Jones, for people who don't know?

She's an iconic casting director. Yeah. And she's someone who's done discovered many talents, and I'm one of them. I give Aziz credit for sure, but he, in a really cool way, when he was casting the— what used to be called the Untitled Aziz Ansari Project, he said, "I wanna just meet with people before I read with them." And he said, "I wanna meet interesting people." And Allison had met with me, you know, like that year, earlier that year, 'cause she saw something I put on the internet, which was like this pilot presentation, which would ultimately become Twenties, which I was not in because, again, no desire to be an actor. But—

Well, I knew then, I think because—

and it's still my biggest goal, is to be a great television writer. That's really all I ever wanted to be, obviously. Yeah, started from when I was young. I never thought I wanted to be on the screen. I think I always wanted to be the person writing the words that they said. And that was just always what it was. And I admire actors a great deal. I love a great TV star, a great movie star. I just didn't want that pressure that came with it, and all that comes with that, because it's a lot. And so, So, I— when I wrote the pilot presentation for Twenties, it was a— I was writing a thinly veiled version of my 20s and myself and what I— my friends and all that. And so, it got a little, you know, buzz, and people were talking about it. And I got a call that Allison Jones wanted to meet with me. I didn't even know who she was. I didn't. I was like, "Why does a casting director want to meet with me? I'm not casting anything." And when I went in the— I walked into her office, of course, I walked by the poster for Freaks and Geeks.

I walked by the poster for Veep. I walked by the poster for Bridesmaids. And I'm like, "Okay." Okay, this person, uh, she's— she knows when a star walks into her, uh, office. And so I sat with her and we talked about television and what we like to watch. And, and what I think— what I kind of understood in that moment is that Allison kind of picked up on my taste being very varied and sort of well-rounded. We talked about Maude, we talked about Ed Martin, and we talked about all these different things. And she was like, okay. And then she asked me, had I have any desire to be an actor? And I said no. And she said, "Okay, do you mind if I bring you in for some things?" And I said, "Sure." And she did. She brought me in for an episode of Veep, which I completely failed 'cause Julia Louis-Dreyfus was in the room and reading with me. And I was like, "Oh, no, I can't. No, this is not about to happen. I don't know what's going on." Uh, and—

You were nervous?

I didn't know Julia was gonna be in there. Right. And so I was like, "What?" Right. You walked in and then you were like, "Oh, no." I've since become friends with Julia. I love her. Her voice is in the Mary Tyler Moore doc. Very grateful. She's amazing. "Let's work together." I'm like, "Okay, bet." But what was cool about Allison Jones is that she's like, "Okay, I'm not worried about that bringing you in." doing it again for The Comeback, season 2. And I'm a person that had The Comeback season 1 on DVD, watched it with the director's commentary, listened to Lisa and Michael talk about their process of figuring out Valerie Cherish. So, I was studying, okay? That series and all that it was, 'cause I knew when I was watching The Comeback when I was in college in Chicago, still living with my mom, I was like, "This is something different and new. And this is crazy that she's coming from Friends, and then he's coming from Sex and the City, and they're doing this." Totally.

Understood.

Got it. I got it. I got that at that moment.

And the depiction of television writers in that show. Oh my God.

It's like, "How much are y'all talking shit? Like, what's going on?" But also for— I'm gonna say Valerie— for Lisa Kudrow to also give you a version of what an actress can be, an aging actress, and what that can look like and how that can feel and the insecurity. It was crazy. So she called me in. At first, it was interesting 'cause she was like, "Do you know what the comeback is?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm obsessed with it." And she was like, "Okay, well, they're doing a second season." And I said, "Okay, what?" And she was like, "You wanna come in? They're doing a press day. There's gonna be a bunch of reporters. I think you'd be cool." So she comes in. Luckily, Lisa nor Michael Patrick came in the room. Thank God.

Yeah, lesson learned.

Don't be in the room.

Don't let them be in there. So she's put me on tape. I said, like, a line. And then I got the call that Michael— Michael was directing that episode. And so he picked me, thank God. And that was actually my TV debut, me being, like, one of the reporters for her press conference or whatever. And so me being on that set set was— to me, that was one of those moments, one of those God moments. That was a big moment for me. And I remember I had a pitch for my line, the way I could say it a little bit better. And that's always a tricky thing because I'm like, "Oh, I don't be that person. I got one line. I got a thought on it." But Michael Patrick King, to his credit, who I love, and he's been a wonderful mentor of mine, he's also kind of, you know, gotten on me a little bit too, and he thinks I'm being a little too big for my britches. But he heard it and he said, "Yeah, that is better. That's better. That's better." And then, of course, later, Allison was talking to Aziz, and she— he said, "Who are some interesting people?" And she said, "Oh, I think you should meet Lena Waithe." And that's how I literally went to his home, literally pulled up to his house, walked in, sat with him and Alan.

Yeah, Alan Young, who was a writer on Parks and Rec, created Master of None with Aziz. Yes.

I mean, those two. And I just sat with them. And I think I was prepared for that moment, 'cause it was weird because I was so used to doing staffing meetings.

Yeah. And— So what— for people that don't know, like, a staffing meeting, when you're a writer and you're trying to get a job, you kind of do, like, a general meeting.

Yeah. You sit and talk about yourself. And you, like, you know, they've often read a script of yours, whether it be a spec or an original, and they talk about that, talk about your life. And I just sat in front of them, and I was not unlike this. I was very comfortable in my skin. I had just fallen in love with somebody. I was talking about all kind of stuff. And they just were kind of— We talked like 30 minutes, the three of us, and then that was it. And then I got a call that he wanted me to come read with him.

It's so interesting you're talking about writers taking meetings, 'cause I think for people that are listening, Like, I don't think enough people know that writing for television, a lot of it is about, like, will you be a person that people just want in the room?

That's right. That's right. You gotta be chill. You gotta be laid back. You gotta be a team player. You gotta know when to be quiet. You gotta know when to speak up. You gotta know the hierarchy. You gotta know the politics of the room.

Have you always known how to do that? 'Cause you're so naturally good at it, Lena.

I mean, I know how to play my position. And I've been— I've been— I was a staff writer twice before I sold my own show. So when you're a staff writer, you really are there just to— you're a helping hand, you know? And you can't— and also what I learned is that it's not your job to fix the show. And a lot of people come in there going, "Okay, I got it. I know how to get us that Emmy." You know what I'm saying? It was never, never that. Even when I did get handed an episode to write, obviously in season 2 of Master of None, which ultimately became the Thanksgiving episode. Which won an Emmy. Oh, well, I'm very grateful. First Black woman ever to be Outstanding Writer in a Comedy Series. Come on. Oh, oh, oh. Aziz knew what was up. You know, I didn't actually want to write that episode because I wanted to keep it separate. I was— a lot of people were like, "Oh, yeah, you wrote on Maestro Noelle." I was like, "Season 1, I didn't write on the show at all." Now, mind you, you know how it is when you're in between takes and you're talking, and things are like— Aziz is like, "Oh, I'm putting that in.

I'm throwing that in." I'm like, "Okay, bet. Cool." But with season 2, when him and Alan asked, like, "Well, how did you come out?" And I told them the story, they were like, "Okay, that's an episode. We gotta do that." And I was like, "Okay, cool. Yeah." I'll write it. I'm gonna go do the Spielberg movie. And Aziz, I'll never forget, he said, he said, "If you don't co-write this, we're not doing the episode." I just was feeling like, not overwhelmed, but I was about to go do Ready Player One. And I was gonna be in London, and that was my first feature, and I didn't wanna mess that up. I mean, come on. Come on. Where do you go from there? But he came to London, to his credit, and we, a weekend when I was not working, and we sat in the hotel room, his hotel room, and In talked. just, like, 2 days. Cranked it out. Knocked it out.

When you were, like, digging deep for that story, your story, did you have any— Like, did you think about what you wanted to keep for yourself and what you wanted to give to the show? It's tricky, right? Oh, yeah. And I mean, it's such a beautiful episode, and it's so— And it really spoke to so many— And Angela.

Oh my God. Angela Bassett. "Are you kidding me?" "Come on. Just talk about her." I actually told Aziza, I was like, "She's gonna say no." I was like, "There's no way she comes to the show." You had not met her. You didn't know her. Had not met her. Obviously obsessed with her. You know, Aziza and I both are obsessed with Jackson 5 and American Dream. That's why we named the character Katherine. Like— But I just was like, "She's not gonna do it, bro." I was like, "You're nuts." Melina Matsoukas directed the episode beautifully. Kim Whitley is in the episode. What did I want to keep? I think what I wanted to do was be as vulnerable as I could on the page. And I think what was so interesting about it, which I think surprised everybody, Alan and Zeze, they thought that religion was a big part of my story in terms of why my family wasn't really, uh, embracing of my sexuality. But it really, it was more about what would the neighbors think, not what will God think. And that was something that was unique. And one of my favorite moments in the episode is, uh, not unlike in real life, when I told my mom I was gay, she looked around to see if anybody heard.

Like, we're in a diner. It's like, these are strangers. Like, who cares what these other people think? And I think that spoke so much to, I don't know, like, who I am. It doesn't— I don't think me being queer makes me more noble, more special, more interesting. And it's just a part of my humanity. And I think that's what I'm really trying to do in that scene, is trying to show my mother her own child's humanity.

Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. I mean, so beautifully done. So recognized for such— Like, it was recognized for such special work. Congratulations on winning that Emmy. Beautiful speech too. Your Emmy speech was so good. It was so cool. And relax. Lena, you were up there like, like, you just like no nerves.

Yo, I mean, well, look, it's, it's, you never know. You know how this goes. Okay, but you never know. And some people, it, there were—

it's interesting. But you're relaxing. You relax people. Wow. I appreciate that. Because you feel relaxed. Is that true? Are you relaxed inside your head? Do you know what I mean?

Yeah, I know what you mean. I, I think there was a lot of talk. I was up against two episodes of Atlanta, by the way. One, okay? And that was like—

Those were tough years. Competitive years.

Okay? But I'll give it to Donald Glover. We were at the Château Marmont. I'll never forget it. The night before, he does all these parties the night before. And Donald said to me, with very confidence and the cool about him that he has, he said, "You're gonna take the writing one. You're gonna take it." And I was like, "I don't know, man." I was like, "I don't know." He said, "No, you got it." He's like, "You got it." And Sterling K. Brown was like, "You're gonna take it." So I'm getting this weird— People are like, "You got it. It's yours. You got it." I'm going like, "Oh, no, no." It's yours to lose now.

I know it's yours to lose.

I'm like, "Ah!" And then, you know, the history that came with it to be, you know— And you just had Mindy here. She's one of the first women of color to be nominated in that category for outstanding writing in a comedy series for an episode of "The Office." And Wanda Sykes won, but for sketch comedy writing, which was for Chris Rock's show. And so when they told me, when the Academy said, "No, you're the first African American woman to ever be nominated for outstanding writing in a comedy series for the Primetime Emmy Award," I was like, "Oh." Huh. Okay. And I think that just— it brought a different level of weight to it. And I think what I wanted to do— I did think about Halle Berry winning that Oscar. And I remember watching and crying. And it was— I was in Chicago, so it was late as hell. It was like my mom had gone to bed. She said, "I hope she will— hope the Black woman wins." I was like, "I know, we'll see." And I remembered that speech, and she was very emotional, and rightfully so. But I loved how she sort of channeled the women that had come before her.

For sure. You know, and I think what I wanted to do was to honor Susan Fales-Hill, Debbie Allen, Yvette Lee Bowser, Gina Prince-Bythewood, all these women that had been in television writers' rooms that had influenced me. And also wanted it to be a moment for the queer community as well, for us to be seen. And just for Black women that want to write TV comedy.

Totally. It's like, you know, we're one of the founders. And you spoke about this too, which is like comedy, which also just, you know, I think I think any person that feels like they have to— Any person that feels like they're representing a lot of history and a lot of people, that isn't always the easiest thing for comedy. Right? Yeah. Because comedy, it's like there's nothing worse than being like, "I'm gonna write something very important." Like, what the hell? Right. What? I mean, come on. You know, you're like, "I'm gonna write a classic sketch." "White women everywhere." "Yeah, I'm gonna change some minds with my comedy." It's like, "Oh!" It's like, "Um..." I'm glad that that episode meant so much to so many people. And— You must have people all the time coming up and talking to you about it, right? Yes. Yes. That's really cool.

Really wouldn't expect. A lot of straight white dudes say they love it, which is always fascinating to me.

I bet you have a lot of straight white dude fans. I do, interestingly enough.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'Cause they love Master of None. They love Ready Player One.

Yeah, exactly.

What was it like working with Steven Spielberg? Oh my God. We got to interview him for the Colman Domingo episode. He gave Colman a question, and I was saying to him, like, you know, "Thanks for giving me all of my memories." Yeah. "Thank you for giving me a happy childhood." Yeah. Like, "All everything you've ever done is in my head forever." But what was it like to be directed by him?

He's like the best dad you could ever ask for. And I always say that. I would say he's a giant that doesn't make you feel small. That's who he is. He's very aware of his— of his bigness. He's aware of the history that walks into the room when he does. And he's really good at disarming people and making you not be nervous about it. And he was not in the room as well when I auditioned for Ready Player One. Thank God. He hired me off of a tape. Like, you know, like, I came in, obviously, for Ellen Lewis, who's also another iconic casting director. And I could tell when I walked in the room and was just very comfortable she saw something and then brought me in again. And I think she had a conversation with Steven, and I think that was a part of how I got in that film. And— but he just— he took to me. And it's so funny, there's a level of trust that was there before even getting on the set. And one day he said, "Lena, I could tell you to, like, run off this cliff and you would do it." I said, "Yep.

Yep." That's how much I trusted him. And you will— you will— you'll follow him to the end of the earth because you know that his heart is in the right place. You know that he wants to make something classic, something iconic.

I feel like you like when there's, like, a strong leader. I do.

Like, you relax. Yeah. And I sort of like when a person is leading with their heart. Yeah. You know? And, um, and, and just sort of has everybody's best interests, you know, in mind.

Are you the kind of person, if there's no leader, it'll be you?

Look, it depends on the situation. It's like, do I need to get in here? Because I don't want to feel like I have to control everything. I don't want to be that person.

Why not? You're like, uh, you know, it seems like you know how to do it.

I mean, somebody's going to I mean, so first of all, a lot of my friends have been like, oh really? You don't wanna control everything?

Like, like a, like a, like a trip. If you're going on a trip with your friends, are you the person that plans the trip?

I wanna sort of curate the experience more so than control it. Oh, which is the same thing. Okay, God, I'm in therapy right now. Got it. This is me creating words. You're like, you're, you're controlling, you're curating it.

But I, but see, I love that because I, I, to, that's your love language, right?

I wanna make sure we have a good time.

I just wanna talk about Shy for a second. Congratulations on it. Like you're now it's done. Yeah, almost like it's about to be done.

So whenever this airs, I'll be done.

When this airs, it will have been done. Wonderful. Perfect. And you are going to be like— you will have, you know, successfully wrapped 8 seasons of a show, which never happens. How long did Parks and Rec go?

You can't even remember.

This is a good question.

The fact that you don't know off top tells me— 7 or 8. Tells me everything I want to know. Is this 7 or 8? This is why we had to stop, because people were like, you could have went 10. You not knowing is everything I want. In life. Okay. I know Mary Tyler Moore went 7 seasons. The first iteration of Second City went 6. Uh, Will Grace was 8 seasons.

I think, I think we did.

This is what happens when you make television.

Also, you forget. This is called menopause.

Okay. I'm Perry. I'm Perry. Here we go.

Perry. I'm Perry. Hey, come on over. Come on. It's so fun. Look, night sweats. Oh my God. It's so great. Night sweats, baby. Um, Parks and Rec had 7 seasons. Wow.

So you're very Mary Tyler Moore. Okay. I'm one more, one more than you. And yeah. And you guys did it.

8, and, you know, people might not know— Extended season.

Season 6 was 16 episodes.

I— that— that— I've heard you talk about that, where they were like, we love it more, and you're like, this is so great. Yeah, nightmare, because people don't understand.

Like, me out. I'm like, I like 10, baby. I like 10. I mean, cable, what are we doing?

When you do— we used to do 20. We, we had really uneven seasons. Like, we had 6 seasons— 6 episodes the first season, And then I think it was— Which is insane. 21, and then 24, and then 16. Which is normal. And then, at the time, I think we were in the 20s. And to do 20 episodes of TV, as people will probably notice, from episode 14, 13, and 16, it got a little goofy. A little goofy. 'Cause you start an arc that ends at about episode 11 or 12, and then you go back You gotta kinda start another one that's gonna take you to the end of the season. And in between, you're like, "Let's have an episode where we're all, like, you know..." Just—

when did "Treat Yo Self" happen, though? Great question. Just 'cause, like, that feels like— As an audience member, you wonder, is that y'all just being tired and landing on something iconic? Or is it like, "We're— This is something we think could actually really..." Take?

Season 4, episode 4. So we were a little fresh. We were still a little fresh. Yeah.

That feels about right. Yeah. 'Cause that was something that just stuck. And it's still— I still get those gifts from people. Like, they're just like, "Treat yourself." Treat yourself, 2011. Come on, man. What? And we still, like, we'll say it.

Written by Alan Yang, that episode.

Come on, Alan Yang.

That's a good one. And congratulations on on an incredible run.

Thank you so much. I mean, it does not happen anymore.

I know. The Last of the Mohicans. Yeah, it's so true. And, you know, like, you also— We didn't even really talk about it, but we both spent time in Chicago. You were born in Chicago. It's such a love letter to that city. And it's also, just like the city, it's over the past 8 years, the show and its relationship to the city has changed. Oh, yeah. It's— Do you have people from Chicago feel like real ownership of that show? How do they talk to you about the show when they talk to you about it?

I mean, they're mad that it's going away. They're like, "What? Just do it forever." I'm like, "I don't know if I could do that." I was like, "I wanna do some other stuff." But they feel like these characters are their family. And they feel very connected to them. I remember when Parks and Rec went— you guys closed the curtains and you guys were doing all the press. And I remember watching all those interviews and watching all of you, 'cause as a person that watched the entire series, it does feel like a part of you is, like, not gonna be there anymore. And so— And—

Like, you're gonna miss the characters.

You're gonna miss the characters. I'm gonna miss the people, the writers. You know how that is. It's just— it's a family. It becomes a family, even though it's, uh— it can be dysfunctional sometimes, and it's work. But you realize how special that is to make something that— the world watches and that people care about.

Uh, I wanna do a very quick speed round about Chicago. Let's do it. Coldest you've ever been?

Oh my God. Let me tell you something. Winters, as you know, mm-hmm. In Chicago, mm-hmm. Are just relentless. They're, they're, they're relentless. They, they test you. I think it's why I'm so cool. I, I, I think you're right.

I think that there's like a Midwestern thing. First of all, nobody ever talks about the weather because it's like, what's the point? What's the point?

It's like, accept it. Yeah. Deal with it. Yeah. Like no one walks around saying it's cold.

Cold, like—

I'm waiting on a bus in Chicago, okay? On the train. Yes. In the cold weather, walking from the train station to my home. Yeah. Like, you don't— don't, don't, don't talk to me. Like, I don't— nothing scares me. Like, I'm not bothered by you or your attitude. Like, I've had to walk in snow to get to where I had to go, on a train, on a bus, like, waiting on a bus. In the cold. Yes. Yes. Don't talk to me, man.

Don't do it. Okay. Best concert or best music you've ever seen there? Best concert.

Oh, see, here's the deal. I gotta do two. Okay. Prince and Whitney. Oh my, what? I know. But here's the deal.

I would've loved to have seen Whitney.

Talk about musicality. Here's a, here's a deal. A big influence my mom had on me. She did not like the fact that I couldn't hear Prince when I was young.

I heard you talk about this. I love this. Say that. Say that. Say more.

I could not, I just didn't get it. And she would play Prince a lot.

Well, you might've also been like, like nobody wants to like be into what their mom is into, even if they have the coolest mom, the coolest mom. Like, if you're like, this is really great, your kids just like, they wanna be their own person. Maybe was that? I don't know.

Okay. I don't know. It just, she would play him a lot. Yeah. Which like makes sense now as you think about it in the car, in the house. And I just was like a young person that just said, I don't, what is this? What's happening? And so now fast forward, he's coming to Chicago. Oh my God. And I'm in college and she's like, you're coming. Mm-hmm. And I said, why would I wanna go to to a concert of somebody whose music I don't like? And she said, "Because you don't understand, and you need to understand. And no child of mine is not gonna be a fan of Prince." I mean, this is really— she's not joking. Her and her friend, Monique, they in the front seat, I'm in the back upset. And we're going, I think it was like United Center or something, I don't know. And we pull up, and I go into this concert, and I am like baptized, in a way, by his music. And I hear it for the first time. Wow. Live. And I'm like, standing with my mom and her friend. They're just having the best time. And I'm just, just in awe.

Yeah. And, and, um, and we have— I still have a t-shirt. We got a t-shirt from that concert. I still have it. And I walked out of there different. And I went and bought all the— then you can go to record store. I went and bought all the records and was like, listen to that. You got all the movies. Watch Purple Rain. I just really was educated. And it was one of those things where I was really grateful that she was like, "You need to know what this is." And then fast forward, I'm in LA, and he does a whole, like, you know, um, a stint at the Forum. And for a while, and I would go to those concerts and, like, listen. And I have him tattooed on the back of my leg now. Like, I have a Prince tattoo on the back of my leg. And then Whitney Houston, which I also have her tattooed here on my arm. Paparazzi photo of her sticking her tongue out. Um, I'm just— I've been a— I've been a Whitney girl since, you know, I heard "Greatest Love of All." And I'm not alone in that.

You know, growing up in the '90s and being born in the '80s, she was it.

She was it.

There was no one else. There is nothing else. And I just remember finally, like, being in the same space. And she was— and "My Love Is Your Love" really was like a comeback. Speaking of the comeback. Yeah. It was her sort of coming back and saying, like, "I'm not done yet. I'm not done." You know, we got— we gon'— I'm still here, and I still have a voice, and I still matter. And I didn't even understand the significance of that, you know, as a young person. But I remember being like, "Oh, Whitney coming out with new music? What? Oh, man, it ain't no greatest hits. It's just she coming out with some new stuff." And that was even really important for me to see that for her to say, "This is where I am now in my life, and I'm gonna be rocking with Wyclef and Missy Elliott and Rodney Jerkins and Lauryn Hill. And these people aren't who they are without me being who I am." And I remember that album and those videos and me just feeling really— And I have a t-shirt that says, from that one, which I wear often. And it's something about those shirts and those merch.

When you go to concerts, like, grab a t-shirt, do something, 'cause you never know.

I know, there's so many concerts I regret. Like, one of my— I went to, like, New Edition was one of my first concerts. Come on, that's why we love you. God, I would—

You can come to the cookout. You're coming. You're there. You're awesome. Come on. You're with us. We love you.

Ronnie, Bobby, Ricky, and Mike. Come on. I'm a girl, who cares? She likes. Um, but, but man, I wish I had a t-shirt.

I went to a Janet Jackson concert in Chicago, the Rhythm Nation. I still have that one. Like the, the merch shirts. There's something of, it's a, it's a piece of history. The fact that I can still fit my damn Rhythm Nation shirt.

Well, can I talk to you about the way you dress for a second? 'Cause I love it. Do it. Because I love it. Thank you. And you have such good style. Honestly, a lot of times when I see you at events, I'm a little jealous of how comfortable you look compared to everybody else. It's the perk of being a lesbian.

There's so many perks. Yeah. So many perks. So we don't have to deal with men. Like, I mean, that's the main one. We really are looking at y'all.

Jenna laughing very hard. Hardest Jenna's ever laughed. I mean, woo, that male ego.

It is. It's so true.

It's so true. It's so true. And like the, your style, I love your style. And, and, and it's very you. It's really like, it's, it's, um, oh, it's always changing. It's always interesting. It is like always right for the event that you're at. But you are never like, it's just like you as a person, you're just never trying too hard. True. And it's always cool.

Thank you so much.

And do you have a stylist? You pick all this stuff of yourself?

Well, it's so funny because I do— Jason Bolden, who is Cynthia's like— he's actually her style. He would joke and be like, Lena, I'm your stylist too sometimes.

Yeah, yeah.

But he— they actually doing real work. They like doing stuff and having conversations. So RuPaul always says everybody's in drag. And I think for me, I want to feel how on the outside, how I feel on the inside. And I just feel comfortable in the way that I dress. And I always want to feel comfortable. Me too. I never want to feel like I'm trying to be something I'm not or make someone else feel comfortable. I don't want I don't want someone else's comfort to be a priority.

When did you figure out your own style? Did you always have it?

You know what's so interesting? Because I'm doing a clothing line right now called Proximity, all right? With a designer, her name is Knox, and she's from New York. And she, you know, I like to wear— 'Cause I just wanna wear designers that reflect who I am. She's a queer Black woman, and we're friends. And we were like— And this is, you know, part of what she's doing. Like, she made this for me, and I wore this to a premiere of Him. I'm wearing it again. I like repeating things as well. I'm just letting folks know that like every outfit doesn't have to be new or different. But I think I sort of— I used to wear those t-shirts where there was a whole time people were wearing t-shirts with like a whole paragraph. It was like a little funny joke thing. That was a thing I was doing so much. I was like, Lord, help me. So glad I grew out of that. But then I got into vintage, like, stuff, like vintage shirts and things like that that meant something to me. And I was like, okay, cool. And then I got, you know, making a little bit of money.

I was like, okay, cool. I get a little designer thing here. There was a thing where you wanted the designer brand there, right there, so people were like, people know you wearing Valentino. Yeah. Then you get older and you realize, I don't want nobody to know that I got Valentino on. Right. Just let it be, you know, as Rashida does quiet luxury.

Yes.

You know, the, the, the white t-shirt costs $500. I mean, listen, I'm always asking Rashida.

Oh, Rashida is the goat. I'm like, what, where does this— and she's like, she's right now, she's in the biggest clothes I've ever seen. Okay. Everything is gigantic. She's— Japanese. Oh my God. Everything. She cut, she walks in. She's so cool. I'm like, is this what we're doing now? It looks incredible. Everything she's wearing is incredible.

She's so chic and just easy. Like, I, I I took a lot of tips from her. I said, "Okay, do a little plain, little jacket, little this, little that." I steal a little bit with Rasheeda. I'm like, "Okay, Rashieds." But I think style is not unlike your voice. So you have to try different things, find it over time. But I do think my queerness does lend itself to my style. And a big part of it is because I don't live under the male gaze. I don't have this desire to impress dudes. Or really even impress, like, women. I'm just sort of, I'm like, what looks good? Sounds good to me.

Well, this is kind of a segue, which is you're the producer right now on a show that is, like, all about people who are celebrating the way in which they've discovered who they are. And it is a show called Jellicle Ball. This is true. Cats: The Jellicle Ball. Cats: The Jellicle Ball. You're a producer on it.

Yes, one of the co-producers.

And talk about watching in real time people, like, figuring out, like how I wanna be in the world. Not only how do I wanna dress, but how I wanna move, how I wanna be an artist. Like, how did you get involved in working with that show? When did you first see it, and why did you wanna be part of it?

Well, thank God Cynthia saw it first. She was here in New York and went to see it at PAC when it was off-Broadway. And she called and she said, "You gotta see the show. You gotta come down. You gotta come to New York to see it." I was like, "Okay." And I bet people might be, like, a little intimidated when Cynthia Erivo comes.

I was in the audience. That's a tough— that would be— I would be like, of course.

I think they were very excited and ready to show off their skills when she was there. She guest judged over there at PAC. And so, she called me. She was like, there's something— there's a level of intensity in somebody's voice where they're like, no, you need to come. And so I was like, OK. So I came, saw, and was blown away and said, OK, well, this should transfer to Broadway. I'm hoping if it does, I said, I think we should be producers on it. And it wasn't the easiest thing, I think, because, you know, there's a lot of producers on Broadway shows. And there's certain requirements things that people need. And we just said, "Trust us. Like, we need to be a part of this because we want to make sure everybody knows about it. And we want to get out there and, like, wave the flag and be on this amazing podcast and talk about it and all that stuff." And so we were grateful to the lead producers that they said, "Yeah, you guys should come on and be a part of this." And, you know, speaking of blockbuster, I watched Paris Is Burning, that documentary, because it was on the shelf.

And I saw it one day and I said, "I'm gonna watch this doc." And I never stopped watching it. I kept rewatching it again and again and again. Again. Um, and I was seeing what I wanted to be. I was seeing these people with these big personalities and saying funny things. They're hilarious. If you go back and watch Paris Is Burning, there's just joke, joke, joke. They're not even trying. They're just being hilarious.

And I mean, that's— that to me is like real love language, is when people like tease each other.

Oh my gosh. It's like, it's— yeah, the white version is tease, Black version is throw shade. You know what I'm saying? It's like we're throwing shade, we're like being fierce, we're talking trash. And so I just I just loved that, how the— Paris Is Burning really obviously helped to influence, you know, uh, Cast Angelica Ball, and also influenced Pose and things like that. But to see Junior LaBeija, who was in the documentary, and a lot of people in the documentary have since passed away, for him to be on that stage every night, and being able to feel that love and receive it, I'm honored to witness it. And I've seen it twice, obviously, on Broadway, obviously once on Off-Broadway, and it's something that just brings me so much joy.

Well, we got to talk to— the directors. Oh, um, come on. The Tony Award-winning directors.

That's what they are now.

They're the best. And, um, we got to talk well behind your back with them. Oh my goodness.

Because these two, the dynamic duo. Just, first of all, I was very stressed.

They, I felt like they brought way too many relatives to the Tonys. Well, come on. They had a lot, I know, but they had a lot of people in those seats. Yeah. And at one point they were saying they had to talk to everybody and I was like, no, you don't. Look, it's your night. Yeah. Um, it is. But they, but they, But they spoke, of course, so beautifully about just what you were saying, which is that you guys, you know, you and Cynthia used your currency to get this show where it needed to be. And you saw something right away that meant so much to them. And that, you know, that is kind of you in a nutshell, Lena. Like, you are an artist who really loves other artists. You really support, and you like what you do, you like, and you, when you like something, you really want people to know about it. Yes. Like you are, you know, you're a mentor for so many people and you're also just like never forgetting that you're a fan and a student at the same time. Yeah. It's awesome. Thank you. And they love working with you.

Mm-hmm. And, um, they had a couple questions for you.

Oh my goodness. Ebony and Ivory.

Okay. And so Jaylen's question was, who is the person that you see on the dance floor, or what kind of person do you see on the dance floor that gets you excited, that makes you think this is gonna be a good party?

Oh, like, who do I— if I see them on the dance floor, it's gonna be a good time.

You know what I mean? Oh yeah. Who are you looking for? Might not even be a specific person, but a kind of person. Wow. A kind of party.

You know what's interesting? 'Cause I, I love, I love to dance, but I don't necessarily need to be in the center.

I know, cuz you're cool. So you just—

I don't need to be in the center.

I know, I know, I know. That's what cool people do. They dance on the side. They dance on the side.

I'm on the side. I'm in the cut, you know what I mean? Doing the two-step.

Oh, oh, I know. Barely moving, looking cool.

Not breaking a sweat.

You mean you're not breakdancing in the middle like the person that's like huffing and puffing, going for it.

But you know what though? I fuck with those people though. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you need that person. Party pumper. You need, you need the Beyoncé.

I'll tell you what I can bring to a party. What's that? I'll be the first one on the dance floor.

Yeah, you will. 'Cause you're not, you don't have any clothes on.

I don't care. And somebody's gotta start it and nobody wants to. And we've been to like industry parties where it's like, oh my gosh, there's a great DJ. Nobody's dancing. We gotta start this. Like, what are we gonna talk to each other?

Like, enough of that. Let's go.

And I will, I'll sacrifice myself and be number one with hopefully a friend.

But maybe That's why you're the cool— That's why I love reading Bossypants. I love that section about you. When Tina says, like, "When Amy got in there, it was like, 'Oh, things have changed. Things are gonna be different around here.'" Such a great passage where she talks about you coming to SNL. And I think that's so reflection of you at a party. Like, you're not afraid to be the first. Well, I'll be embarrassed.

I don't care. Which is what makes you amazing.

But what—

Who do you like to see? What type of person?

What type of person?

Or like, is there a friend that you're like, "Okay, they're here. It's gonna be fun"?

You know what? I like a person a person who can actually dance. Like, I'm not skilled, you're not taught. We just going off of the vibes.

Who's a good dancer?

Well, a lot of the cast from Cats. Like, we had an after party, and I'm like, "Oh, yeah. I'm not even doing a two-step over here. I'mma let y'all do what you doing." Um, like, yeah, I think a lot of the drag queens, like, are doing a different kind of vibe 'cause they know— choreography. Yes. That's the thing. Like dancers who— and performers. I really, I really love watching them. Me too. Because there's an art to it. There's something to it.

I was saying earlier, it's like magic.

It is. It is. I like watching people dance. That's why I don't— I'm like, I don't want to get in the way. I don't— I want to just like catch a vibe, be a part of the groove. But I love watching people that actually know how to dance. Yeah. Because I could watch them all night.

Okay. And the last question is, is what are you— because I know you love— you're like a culture vulture. You keep up. Yeah. What right now are you watching, listening to? What are you into? Give me some recs. It could be a video that you can't stop watching. It could be so much. And like, let's, let's, let's, let's have it be funny. Okay. I can't watch anymore. I know you were going to say— I know I'm about to go Half Man. Sorry. Exactly. I was about to say you were going to go Half Man. Half Man and Baby Reindeer. Okay, I'm looking the last.

I know, I know. Sorry. I know. I like, even though I think that's technically a comedy. I know, I know. Oh God. Okay. Damn. Are you a couples therapy girl?

Okay. Couples therapy.

Couples therapy. Let's talk about couples. Recent season. Okay. Okay. Okay.

First of all, who do we wanna talk? Woo. What? I'll take it away from this specific couple and just say in general, what is so good about couples therapy? Please. I think, is that you watch it and you're like, "I got these two bits." You think you—

Like, you're always proven a little wrong. Every time. Oh my gosh.

I am anyway. Like, it's like, "I know what this problem is. This person, this person." You think you're good. Like therapy. And then they start to talk and you're like, "Oh, they're not here for that. They're here for the other thing." And also, I don't know what I'm talking— You know, like, we don't know anyone's shit. I'm not smart.

I'm not Dr. Orna. She has a PhD.

Exactly. Like, I love being proven wrong. 'Cause I'm always like, that guy is not right for her. And she's too whatever. And then it's like, no, you're not. You're, you're wrong. Like, you're not, you don't know. And the way in which you watch how communicate, how different everybody's communication styles are.

Whoa. Very different. Everybody should be watching couples therapy. I agree. Whether you're in a relationship or not.

Absolutely right. Okay. You learn so much about yourself.

You learn so much. And I think, and those couples are awesome for personal growth. Participating in it. Oh my God. Yeah, truly. Because what I also learned is that we all have childhood traumas that—

Usually comes out around episode 4.

Uh-huh. Yeah. And it's never what you expect. Nope. Ever. Um, and you see how that is playing out in their relationship. And my hope is— And also, you know, I've been therapized. I'm in therapy. I don't need to say who my therapist is. Sorry, everybody. Relax. But I— I've learned a lot about myself in terms of how I show up as an adult based on how I was raised. I mean, it sounds very simple and easy to understand, but you sometimes have to really question your own behavior. Like, why did I do this? Why did I behave this way? Why am I struggling with boundaries? Like, what is that it? And it's like, oh, because I didn't have— no, my mom didn't have boundaries with me when I was a kid. And so, now I have to learn that for myself as an adult, or my— My partner has an abandonment wound. And so, when I go quiet or I leave without saying goodbye, it triggers her in a way that I wouldn't think it would. And so, and that's why I think learning in therapy that vulnerability is a strength. And a lot of people wanna protect that, or I don't wanna tell you this hard thing.

And the thing I learned too, is like, truth does no harm. And that, and so, I've had to get really honest with— with, like, people I love or say, like, "Hey, this is a part of me that I'm ashamed of, or I'm embarrassed by, but I wanna say it out loud and see where you stand." Not to test you to see if you'll stay, but rather so you know exactly who I am, and you can make an informed decision about whether or not you wanna stay. It's—

that's so well said. And you, Lena, you just said something that, like, I watch it a lot to just get scripting for how to say things.

Wow. That's good.

Because it's like, sometimes I'll like break the window when there's a door right next to it that's open. Like you wanna get something out, but the way you say it, it's like, it's good practice. Just what you just said, like, hey, I wanna share this thing with you and I wanna know how you feel about it. Like just the gentle way into the vulnerability is like just practice. 'Cause if you don't see it, you know, if you don't see, if you don't have tools or practice to figure out how to talk to people about how you feel, then it just can be like either shocking or like, He said, like, we withdraw or we like over— it's— humans are fascinating.

They really are. And I think that's why I love the show so much. And it's so interesting because, you know, I hear sometimes single people, particularly in this case, single women who have a certain age, and they're like, I'm single. And the only way I want a relationship is if it brings joy to my life or if it makes me happier. And it's so funny because I always think that is not how a relationship feels. Like, that's not how that goes. Like, if you expected somebody to come and bring just joy and happiness and fun or romance. Like, no, it's like, imagine looking in a mirror all the time. Yeah.

A real, true relationship makes you confront the stuff in yourself— That you wanna run away from. Totally. We are fascinated with the beginnings of things. We're fascinated with the, like, young people, young love, people falling in love. We're just so into it. And then everybody gets there, and then we never ask them another question again. We never talk to them again. People who've been married for 10 years and like, how's it going? What's going on? Whatever. We're just like interested in who people are dating or when they break up or whatever. But the middle, the in-between, is like nobody even—

nobody talks about it. They don't.

Nobody asks any questions about it. And it's the same way with like— I'm finding the same way with like middle age. Like people are really fascinated with like, you know, young people on the rise, and they're fascinated with like the gravitas of being the legend. And you're like, there's a lot of middle here. Yeah, there's a lot lot of things happening.

That's true. You know, I mean, like, I'm 42, and so I think—

little baby, little tiny baby. What? 42, so cute. Okay. No, no, no. 42. 42. 42 is interesting.

It's interesting. Millennials are old now. I know, it's weird. I feel it. I'm like, I'm a young elder. I'm childless by choice. Mhm. Um, have no desire to raise children. Um, but I think what you're saying in terms of the the falling, the newness of something. I think that to me is something I do get a little frustrated with. We romanticize the meet cute. Oh yeah. And the meet cute is cool. It's great. Yeah. But I think what I'm learning so much is being comfortable in the boredom. Yes.

Comfortable in the quiet. Or how about this? What is contentment? Like, what is contentment?

Like— Because familiarity breeds contempt. That's right.

And oof, we could talk about this forever.

I know.

We gotta land the plane. I mean, because there's nothing like— I mean, I'm sure you watch couples therapy. We'll wrap it up by saying couples therapy can kind of feel like almost like a board game where you're watching after many seasons and then some, like a person will say something and their partner will be like, ugh, and roll their eyes. And you're like, and there it is. Couples therapy is so good. It's just great.

Like everybody should watch. That's my big thing, couples therapy. And I'm trying to think of therapy.

Everybody just watch as much therapy as they can.

I know. And like music, I'm trying to think, I don't have my phone, but like, please listen to Tems, T-E-M-S, amazing singer. Phenomenal. She's great.

That Lauryn Hill tribute, phenomenal. She's—

Lauryn had to get up there. Lauryn said, I can't let y'all do a tribute without me being a part of it. I know. She said, let me get up here and do my song. One album, but technically people sleep on Unplugged. Go listen to Lauryn Hill Unplugged back when MTV used to do that. I love that album. Love that record. Her voice is like scratchy and she's real. She done been through some stuff. Yeah, it's like the— it's the album post-success. Yeah, yeah, telling you about some shit.

But God, it would have take I would've, I wish like, I wish there was like 10 more albums from her.

Like, we can't demand labor. I know.

We have to just, I know we gotta get outta here.

I know I'm probably late for another hang that I was supposed to have. And they like, what was you doing hanging with Amy? Classic. This is what we would do.

Thank you for coming and doing this. I would do it. This was so fun. Thank you so much, Lena Waithe. That was so fun. I could have talked to you forever and we talked about so many great things. And so for this polar plunge, I just wanna remind everybody how incredible Debbie Allen is. If you If you haven't seen her work, Debbie Allen was— Well, she kind of broke into the scene, for us anyway, in a show called Fame, where she plays this incredible dance teacher. And Debbie herself is a choreographer, an actress, and producer. And she was Lydia Grant, who was telling Leroy to find the soul within him to learn how to dance. And she has— She did a million episodes of A Different World. You can catch her talking to Lena Waithe on her podcast, Legacy Talk. They have an incredible conversation. And she's the sister of Phylicia Rashad from The Cosby Show. I mean, talent family up the wazoo. So, Debbie Allen, if you're listening, I love you. Uh, thank you for being, um, so talented in so many things. Thank you for listening. Thank you for doing the podcast, Lena.

And thanks, everybody. And we'll see you soon. Bye. You've been listening to Good Hang. The executive producers for this show are Bill Simmons, Jenna Weiss-Berman, and me, Amy Poehler. The show is produced by The Ringer and Paperkite. For The Ringer, production by Jack Wilson, Cat Spillane, Kaya McMullen, and Alea Xanaris. For Paperkite, production by Sam Green, Joel Lovell, and Jenna Weiss-Berman. Original music by Amy Miles.