Transcript of Oh Walt Whitman!

Conan O'Brien Needs a Fan. Want to talk to Conan? Visit teamcoco.com/callconan. Okay, let's get started.

Hey, Brooke, welcome to Conan O'Brien Needs a Fan.

Hey, how's it going?

Hey, Brooke, how are you?

I'm great. How are you?

I'm doing all right. Where— I don't see where you are in the world. Where are you?

I'm in New York, currently in Queens.

You're in Queens? Oh, terrific. And all I know about you, it says here, and this is fascinating to me, is that you are an intimacy coordinator. Is that correct?

Yeah, that's correct. It's the best job in the world.

Yeah. Yeah, it is. Well, I'm— Okay, Sona, why don't you tell us? So excited. Clearly, Sona's the one that has thoughts about this. This is— I mean, this job is endlessly fascinating to me, and— I would think it's become more and more necessary as sex scenes— if you think about, you know, back in the day, it was a kiss, and then the camera would drift over to an open window and some billowing curtains, and then pan back over, and people were smoking cigarettes, and the covers are pulled up to their chins. So, obviously, as sex scenes become more graphic and realistic, you need people there to make— sure that everything's copacetic. Is that correct?

Yeah, I think the position came out of the MeToo movement, where all of a sudden the awareness of some of the abuses in Hollywood became very apparent. And as a result, producers started being willing to pay for someone to be there, both for, uh, guaranteeing that actors can consent to what's being asked of them in a private setting with someone who's not in charge of hiring or firing them.

Oh, right, right.

And then also exactly what you're saying, the artistic side of it, which is the fun part, is making the scenes more believable, authentic, compelling, absurd, whatever the need of that project is.

Okay. I mean, I'm curious, first of all, how did you become— how does one become an intimacy coordinator?

Yeah, well, nowadays there's schools you can go to, but I started back in 2016. I was an actor for a bunch of years, and I tended to get cast in roles that involved intimacy or trauma, and I realized that I'd taken years and years of study. I have my MFA in performance, and all of my teachers taught me how to get to the place of grief or fear or terror, but not how to get back from it. Got it. And I had a summer that I was doing 3 shows in a row, 3 theater shows, um, where I like cried for 4 months basically in every show. And I was like, I need a way to come back to who I am that's healthy. Yeah. So I started creating a warm down for actors, and theaters started bringing me in to teach it. And then I'm queer. I came out late in life, and when I came out, I realized right away I wanted to tell queer stories because I hadn't come out earlier because I hadn't seen representation of bisexuality. Right. So I wanted to tell those stories, but I realized I had a straight lens.

Yep. And so I took a year, and every day for a year, I read something or listened to a podcast or watched a show or took a class all on queer sex and storytelling, BDSM and kink. And then theaters started bringing me in to stage that bondage scene. And then one day a theater said, hey, will you be our intimacy director again? And I was like, dear Google, what is an intimacy director? And, and right about that time it was being named and people were paying for it. And I realized that this thing that I was doing that involved boundaries and consent, choreography and closure, which is the warm-down section, there was now a field And so I kind of had that— you know when people say that luck is when preparation meets opportunity? Yeah. I mean, that was my journey. And it was awesome. And then when the pandemic hit, I switched to film and TV, film first. And then I got to do my first TV scene on June 1st, the first day of Pride, on Harlem. And it was a queer scene. And that was pretty awesome. And I was hooked.

Oh, well, good. I mean, first of all, congratulations on— I'm very happy when people find— it takes a long time. Sometimes it, you know, it can take all different amounts of time, but it can take a very long time to find sort of your calling, you know, what you, what you feel like you were put here to do. And it, it found— it sounds like you, it didn't happen overnight, but you found it. And that's gotta be incredibly rewarding. I have to say one thing is that I could see a lot of Charltons getting into the business and saying, "Yeah, I'm an intimacy coordinator," but they're not. Are there ways that you can say, "I'm licensed"? Is there a license you can get? Is there any way that they can patrol it so that creeps like me don't become intimacy coordinators? That's what I'm saying.

You're like, "Do it, guys." Yeah.

"Hey, you guys, why don't you do it? And I'll watch." "Uh, Conan, why are we doing this at a campground?" "Quiet! This is my method." You know?

This isn't even in the scene.

Yeah. "Why are you taping this with an old super—" Super 8 camera. So yeah, that's what I'm saying is, what do you know? We need to stop people like me from becoming NBC coordinator.

How are you doing that? I'm really glad you brought it up because I am here specifically to stop you from doing that.

Yes! Oh, okay. All right. Well, just try.

There isn't any licensing. There are schools that offer certification or accreditation or a diploma, but really The, the marker, in my opinion, is SAG-AFTRA came out with, uh, guidelines for intimacy coordinators, which is a number of things you should be trained in. Yep. It adds up to a minimum, I think, of 75 hours. And then, uh, in order to be on the SAG-AFTRA registry, you have to have worked on a SAG set for at least 60 days. So if a producer's really looking for someone who's super qualified, then That's one way to tell, to tell. But I also think asking someone about their process is really useful. Yeah. Because not every IC is great for every project. Right. And I'm a big believer that, uh, you need the right IC for your project.

Um, what is, uh, I, I mean, I wanna get into some of this cuz there's so much I don't understand, but mm-hmm. Um, there are, are there devices or kinds of garments that people wear because you can't really have, uh, people, you know, touch— touching each other certain parts, right? So what's— what, what is the barrier to that? What is— because I've always heard that there are these things and you hear about it and you're like, I don't know what they're talking about.

Yeah, um, you're exactly right. It's called a barrier. Okay. Um, and if it's a SAG-AFTRA film, there can be no actual sex acts. So a barrier can look a number of ways. It could look like this. Oh, yes. This is— That is the least sexy thing I've ever seen.

Sona went, "Oh, yes." And you're basically holding up what looks like a giant eye patch.

And Sona's like, "Oh, yeah." I'm glad there's— I'm glad she has props with her.

Visuals. Yeah. OK. Oh, OK. So what is that?

That's a barrier? So you're correct that sometimes filming these scenes is the least sexy thing you'll ever do. This is a modesty garment with a barrier. It's made by Coviere in New York. And basically this is for someone with external genitalia. Some might call that a penis. And basically you would put all everything in here and then you would pull it tight and then it's taped to the top of like right below your belly button. And inside is a barrier. And a barrier is meant to reduce sensation and prevent the transmission of fluids.

Okay. Now, a couple of things here. First of all, that thing seems huge. What do you do with all the extra room? Is that for— is that for cash and credit cards too? Absolutely. Cell phone? I'm just looking at that thinking, being like, there's a lot of extra room. You know, I don't know what kind of freaks you're working with, but am I keeping a book in there? But Brooke. Yeah. Oh my God. Okay.

Fluids.

Yeah, we have to talk about this. Is this something— and I'm asking if you're listening right now and there are children in the car, you know, what are you doing? But do people get themselves in a state while they're acting where there could be various secretions?

Honestly, not very often, if at all. Okay. If someone were to get aroused, for example, there are lots of things you can do to let that go. Just think about baseball.

That's what I do. Just think about 1975 Red Sox, and it all goes away. Oh wait, no, it comes back with a vengeance. Start thinking about Dwight Evans. That's a good-looking man over there in right field. Anyway, um, uh, so it doesn't happen that often. What is— oh my God, what is the thing that's depicted in most sex scenes that you see that's the most inaccurate? You know what I mean? Something where you're like, yeah, they always do this in scenes and it's not how it really works.

Well, two things actually, I would say. One, a, like, very fast orgasm where it's like we started touching and now we're all orgasming together at the same time. Yeah. But the other I would say is we often don't see the moment of like insertion where, you know, like all of a sudden they're just having sex. Yeah. But in real life, it takes some effort for the penis to find a vagina, for example.

And you mean the actual moment of coordinating? This part goes into this part and it takes a second, right?

Yeah. And I think because we're not actually doing it, people forget that there needs to be that moment of reaction. Of like, oh, something new has happened, whether it's a breath or a slight shift or something.

Yes. Well, first of all, thank you for getting the word out there that sometimes there can be some fumbling, uh-huh, uh, some, some confusion about what goes where. Uh, you know, it's— well, no, hold on a second. Maybe one knows the hole, but it's dark. You're getting yelled at. Uh, Do you know what I mean? You're getting yelled at. Yeah, what are you doing? You've never got— how can— so many years and you didn't get better? That kind of thing. Oftentimes you're trying to eat a sandwich with one hand, you know, because you didn't get a chance to eat after the podcast. I'm speaking very generally.

Absolutely.

You know, you've got— you're looking, you're trying to watch, uh You know, television at the same time. Yourself on television? Well, old clips of yourself. Not current clips, but old clips of the TBS show, and before that, the NBC show.

Oh, okay. So much of intimacy is about reaction. Mm-hmm. So if we don't have those moments of reaction— Yep. —we lose it. And so much of us get our education from media, our sexual education. Mm-hmm. And so when we show these things that are impossible— and of course, we can dramatize things, but we're doing a disservice to folks.

Well, people now watch these things and they think, "Oh, you know, it's easy to do it standing up in the kitchen." Um, do you know what I mean? And it's— yeah, I'm telling you, it's not— it's not easy, especially if the fridge is open. It's cold, you know what I mean? Huh. And then you try to incorporate cake batter that's nearby. Well, because you see it, you think this will be a good idea, and then you get yelled at again.

I need to throw up. This is so gross. Cake batter? Come on. I can't. I gotta go.

Where you going? You got nowhere to go. Uh, what do you use? Do you Use drawings, charts. What do you do to try and instruct people when you're explaining how the sex scene should work?

Kinds of things. Sometimes I just use my words. Like, sometimes I do use images. Sometimes I use action figures.

I have— You use action figures? See, we've got— we've got— we've got a little sex scene. Wait a minute. What's happening there? I need to try and figure out what's happening.

So this gentleman on the bottom is laying down enjoying himself.

Couldn't tell what the sex was of that person because it looks like a Lego. Yeah, and this other gentleman is up.

One knee on the ground, one foot up, and he's pleasuring this guy. And if we wanted to turn it into a threesome, right, we could just add her. Okay.

She's underneath onto his leg and she's, she's fisting. Oh, she's fisting.

Oh yeah. She's going to fist this guy.

She's pushing her fist. Okay. So. All right. That is two males and one, right? Describe what's happening here. Two men and one woman. You've got to check out the video, by the way. And it's on YouTube. You've You've got to see it. It's incredible.

But yeah, this would be a kind of particularly difficult scene to just talk through. Yeah.

I mean, try to explain that. That's an Escher drawing. You don't know— the stairs are turning into more stairs or turning into more— I mean, it's a very confusing— that's a Dalí painting. There's a melting clock in the corner. So yeah. Okay, I see what's happening. That's not a situation that probably comes along every day, you know?

No, not that one specifically. Yeah, probably not.

And what movie was that for? Is that Toy Story 5? What is that? Oh, no! You just got fired from it? He just got fired! They're now editing me out of Toy Story 5 as we speak. Don't worry, it's a $100 million fix at the last second. Pixar has the money. Um, so you have those, uh, those figurines ready to go. I mean, it's not like you have to improvise with a GI Joe and a Thor and an Iron Man, right?

No, I have a whole kit of stuff I bring to set. I bet you do. Whether it be the barriers you saw, these guys. I use this for a barrier sometimes. And what is that?

That looks like a turkey.

This is just a Squishmallow, but sometimes if someone's having a rough day, it's a little bit hilarious if I just put this between the two people, because you can't have a bad day when you've got a Squishmallow near you.

So I think I'm aware that I'm not an actor every time— a true actor— every time I see a sex scene. And I think, I don't know how these people do this, you know, because there's 75 people around them and I just can't imagine how they do it. Orgasming, you know, pretending to orgasm. It's just, you know, and then there's a sound guy, you know, 2 inches away from you who just had a liverwurst sandwich and, you know what I mean? Yeah. Or a chá tobacco.

And it's insane. Absolutely. I mean, this is why we don't get aroused very often, because there's all these people around. But you could do it if you wanted to, Conan, because it's actually so technical. Like, I worked with an actor recently on an orgasm, and we choreographed it. We, like, voice-ography'd it with what the breaths were going to be, what the vocal sounds were going to be, so that she didn't have to make any of it up. It was ready to go. Anyone can do it if they want to do it.

Okay, but here's my question. Do people ever— because sometimes they're drawing from personal experience. So when an actor is pretending to orgasm, they're really telling you often what they sound like or the sounds they make, which is very personal, right? Isn't that kind of strange? Has anyone ever revealed their sounds to you and you're like, oh boy, you know what I mean? Well, someone comes in.

That's why this position— go ahead.

Well, I'm just saying, I'm going to take this a little further. Oh no. Let's say you were working with me and I was in a movie where it's required that I have sex. Okay. Okay, and there's a scene and you say, okay, Conan, and I'll say, well, let me just freestyle the first one. Yeah. And we've got the little squishy between me and the, uh, in my, you know, the actress, uh, and squishy squishy squishy, and I'm there and I'm going, I just, you hear me freestyle, I'm going, uh, uh, uh, Walt Whitman, you know, and you realize that Oh, Jesus Christ. Those are the sounds Conan makes. And then when he reaches his climax, he shouts the name of one of our great poets, Walt Whitman. I mean, I've just revealed to you, and I think I just did right now to everybody listening, what my jam is. That's my jam.

I think that's one of the reasons that it's so important to have an intimacy coordinator, because Actors should not have to bring their personal experience to set.

Brooke is good at her job. I know. So, you're saying you would prevent me— You would prevent me from using my true noises and my certain peccadillos in a scene?

I would give you the opportunity to do something that the character would do rather than what you're suggesting.

But what if the character's name is Cronin O'Reilly? And he's a tall Irish guy from Boston. You know what?

You go for it. Okay.

Yeah. I just— I think it's endlessly fascinating. And I bet you they're always coming up with new technology. They're going to keep coming up with new things like here's a spray that the guy can put on his penis that encases it in an inert goo that will, you know, keep his penis from becoming aroused. You know, they'll come up with all kinds of crazy new stuff. You know, I know they will.

I don't think they have to.

I want this spray. Come on, science.

Hey, NASA, let's get on it. That's what we need is NASA in the intimacy coordinator realm. I think we could make a partnership here.

I'm just saying, I do think all foolishness aside, which is a lot of foolishness aside, but It's really good that you're there doing this. And it's stunning to me that it took so long for people to realize that, you know, we need someone on set to make sure that the actor is taken care of and has an advocate, you know, in the moment. And when you said, I mean, things that should be so obvious, but— You can't be talking to the director or the producer who can have you fired. You need to be talking to you, Brooke. You're there telling them, "I'm on your side, and let's make this work for you." So that's— I mean, that's huge. That's a great service you're providing.

Yeah, and I find that actors, if they're given all the information, they're ready to go for it. Most often, there's not an issue. But often, in the past, actors weren't given the information in advance, and things weren't choreographed. So it was just like, go for it. And then you are bringing your personal experience because that's what you know. Yeah. Whereas now we can say, oh, you've got a boundary about blank? Great. Let's talk through the story. Let's bring the director 3 other options that will work with your boundaries and that works with the story and see how we can all make this work in a way that works for everyone so that on the day, the actor isn't worried about the intimacy, they're able to really dig in to the acting and give it their all. Do you—

have you ever seen a couple kind of start to form a relationship when they're, you know, there's— they clearly have feelings for each other? You see like, oh, this isn't just acting. Have you ever seen that?

Yeah, honestly, it happens quite frequently because our bodies respond to physical touch, to eye contact, to breath. So, our bodies can tell us we're actually attracted to someone even when we're not. And that's part of why closure practices are helpful to differentiate between when I am the character and when I am myself. Yep. And if it's theater we're talking about, and two actors start to become involved, it's really important that the choreography doesn't grow with the actors' relationship because that then isn't telling the character's story anymore. So, a stage manager, for example, is in charge of keeping that choreography really precise so that it doesn't change because that's just not professional.

I could just see that happening all the time, though. And it does. People are on a movie together, they fall in love, or they start a relationship because they have been kissing each other and rolling around. Rubbin' each other. What'd you say? Rubbin'. They're rubbing each other. No, but they're wearing their barriers. Yeah, but you know. And the barriers have all that extra room, so they have Tic Tacs in there, an alarm clock. An alarm clock. Yeah, the one they got from their great-grandfather. Just saying, that barrier had a lot of extra room. They can be sized. There's a 64-ounce bottle of Dr Pepper.

What's that? Size them. Oh, good God. Thank you.

Yeah. You know, I just don't like to waste material. Brooke, fascinating what you do. It really is. It really is fascinating. And I'm happy for you that you realize this talent and you're helping people. And it's a very— it's great. It's really great. Thanks. You will never see me on a set having an intimate scene. That's— I will always be the weirdo. In the other room in any sex scene, who peers in occasionally. That'll be my role. So you can teach me how to peer. Brooke, thank you so much for everything, and take care, and I'll see you on set. Yeah, thanks for having me.

I appreciate it. Anytime people talk about IC work, it gets more normalized, so I really appreciate you. Normalized?

What about me going, "Ugh, ugh, ugh. Walk with me!" normalized. Brooke, you called the wrong place. Thanks, Brooke.

Bye. See you.

Conan O'Brien Needs a Fan with Conan O'Brien, Sonam Avsesian, and Matt Gourley. Produced by me, Matt Gourley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Liao. Incidental music by Jimmy Vivino. Take it away, Jimmy. Supervising producer Aaron Blair. Associate talent producer Jennifer Samples. Associate producers Sean Doherty and Lisa Birm. Engineering by Eduardo Perez. Get 3 free months of SiriusXM when you sign up at SiriusXM.com/Conan. Please rate, review, and subscribe to Conan O'Brien Needs a Fan wherever fine podcasts are downloaded.