In this episode, kidnapping survivor Denise Huskins recounts how an armed home invasion in 2015 led to two days of captivity, drugging and sexual assault, and then to police and media doubt about her account. She describes her relationship with her husband Aaron, how she tried to stay calm and survive, her release, and the Gone Girl comparisons that followed.
The conversation also looks at why women often struggle to be believed, how victim blaming affects survivors, and what healing has looked like since. Listeners will hear her reflections on trauma, self-blame, and reclaiming her life and name, presented as her own account rather than a verified record of the investigation.
In this episode Alex Cooper, Denise Huskins
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Daddy gang, picture this: it's a typical day for you. You just got off of work, you go pick up a pizza, you head over to your boyfriend's house for dinner, and you guys are just hanging out, and you eventually start having one of those emotionally deep conversations that goes on for hours about just the status of your relationship. You've been dating for 7 months, you're just trying to figure out, "Are we doing this or are we not?" Eventually you're exhausted, you decide you're staying together, you're happy, you're in love, you go to bed.
And then imagine at 3:00 a.m. you're woken up and blinded by a bright white light, laser beams across your body, and you hear a taser go off somewhere in the room. A voice you don't recognize tells your boyfriend to lay on his stomach and commands you to tie him up. You just woke up, you're confused, you're disoriented, you have absolutely no idea what the fuck is going on, who are these people, or what are they here and what do they want.
And the next thing you know you have blacked-out swim goggles put over your eyes so you can't see anything, and headphones are placed over your ears. You hear wind chimes and a strange recorded voice telling you, "Someone is going to take your vitals and give you a sedative to calm you down." Nothing is making sense or adding up. You're struggling to process what is happening. You're taken out of the room with the man, and suddenly this guy says to you, "This wasn't meant for you," but loads you into the truck of his car and you are taken away, and you fall asleep from the sedative and you wake up in a cabin.
Daddy gang, this is a true story. This is Denise Huskins' story. And this is the story of a woman who was kidnapped, raped, survived, and then came out to realize that the world thought she had completely put on an entire hoax, that she made all of this up, and did not believe her story. I'm so excited to sit down with her today and talk to her about her experience. If any of these subject matters could be sensitive to you or triggers, please, maybe this is one you tune out, and I'll see you next week.
For those that of you are going to stick around and listen, here is Denise Huskins.
What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper, with Call Her Daddy.
Denise Huskins, welcome to Call Her Daddy.
Thank you.
How are you doing today?
Oh, God. Um, every day is a mixed bag of emotions. So, like, I'm good, you know, like, all in all, I'm good, but then there's just still, uh, just my body is just, like, processing a lot of stress and.
Yeah.
Stuff from the past. So, like, it's, it's really nice to be able to speak and share, um, about what happened and, and how we've gotten through it, um, but it also just brings up a lot of deep-seated pain, so.
Yeah. Yeah. For context to everyone watching or listening, the story of your kidnapping was told in a Netflix documentary recently, American Nightmare, which was at the top of the charts. It had, like, 21 million-plus streams. As interesting as it is for people to consume that type of content, it's your life, and everyone was watching it. Like, how did you feel when you saw the world watching and experiencing your story for the first time?
It was certainly surreal, but the Netflix experience, you know, that, like, it drops in 190 countries and there's, you know, millions and millions of views, all of a sudden. So now it's just like, um, it's, I mean, it's overwhelming and incredibly positive.
Yeah.
Uh, I mean, people from all over the world sharing their stories with me, um, I mean, calling me brave and a badass and all these wonderful compliments, um, but at the same time I'm like, you know, at home on the couch curled in a ball, my stomach sick, like, a lot of that, that fear, that terror, um, you know. I mean, I spent 2 days in captivity believing I would be killed, in complete shock that I'm released.
So yeah, it just, the exposure, the public exposure is so intertwined with the thought of being killed that it's, like, really hard for my body to differentiate the two. It's like, okay, I know I'm safe, I know that, and, like, most of, most of the attention's very positive right now, so it's very different, um, but it's still, like, my body doesn't know the difference.
I do kind of want to go back to the beginning because I'm sure people are sitting here and we're talking about a Netflix doc and there's this thing that happened. Like, you're a very normal person. Tell me about life before all this. Like, who you were, your job, your upbringing, just, like, kind of paint the picture.
Yeah, so in 2015 I was 29 years old. Um, I, yeah, I grew up in Southern California. I went to undergrad with, um, the goal to become a physical therapist, and I went to get my doctorate in Brooklyn, New York, which was a really cool experience to be able to get something completely different than Southern California, the energy, the culture, the people. Uh, I had a lot of self-learning, self-discovery at that time, and, um, yeah, I started working for a couple years and I went to Vallejo, California, for a physical therapy residency to specialize in working with people who've had, um, severe neurological disorders or traumatic brain injury, spinal cord injury, stroke.
I mean, these people and their families were faced with an unexpected tragic event and are literally, like, building, trying to rebuild their lives. And so that's what I was doing at the time. I was working with people who were going through their own trauma and trying to help them.
Yeah.
And guide them. And that's where I met Aaron, who's now my husband.
Seven months before your kidnapping, you guys meet. Can you describe, like, how you met and go a little bit more into, like, the dynamic of that relationship?
Yeah, so we met at work. He's a physical therapist, uh, who's working at the hospital. We would see each other out in, like, group settings, you know, with the other PTs, and we always just gravitated towards one another. And we were dating, uh, for about 7 months or so, and it was kind of an on-again, off-again thing because he had just been going through a really devastating breakup of his own, um, with someone he was engaged to, who he thought he was going to spend his life with, and she had cheated on him, and so that, like, his whole view of his life and his future just crumbled.
So I could really empathize with what he was going through, but at the same time, after a few months of inconsistency, it was kind of, we were at, like, a, a crossroads in a relationship. So it's, like I said, like, he was going through a difficult time and it was, you know, if you look at it from the outside, it's like, oh, don't go there, it's just too messy. But, um, but at the same time, like, you don't come across that that often.
So the night that you were taken, you and Aaron had gotten into kind of, like, an argument, disagreement fight. What was it about? Can you just kind of, like, give context?
Well, yeah, so about a month before that, I had found text messages on his phone of him communicating with his ex, and it, at that point, it was disrespectful to me and he wasn't being honest to me about it. And so I kind of put my foot down, was like, okay, enough's enough. Like, I, either you go, if you, that's what you want to do, go back to her, do that, or let me go. Like, just give me enough respect to let me go. And he had talked about going to therapy but hadn't done it yet.
So at that point, he really, I think it was, like, more of putting a mirror up to his face and going, okay, I, like, what am I doing? Why am I doing this? This isn't helping me. It's not healthy for me. Um, so he started going to therapy and he, and he started trying to show me that it was me that he wanted to be with and that he wanted to try to make this work. So it was, like, a lot of back and forth, um, and I wasn't going to go over to his house that night. I had told him, like, like, if you want to start over, we can start fresh.
You can take me out on a date. Like, I don't want to go back there because they had lived together in that house too. So it was like, you know, I don't, I don't, I just, yeah, I need you to, like, court me again. Um, but then, you know, he was like, I think it'll be a serious conversation. We should, you know, not be in public, like, talking about it. And so we was like, okay, fine, I'll come over. I brought a pizza. And nothing about that night was heated or confrontational at all.
It was more emotional. You know, it was like, okay, am I willing to forgive him? Can I believe that he wants to move forward? Can he show me that? Um, and so, yeah, we talked for hours and, and we got to that place. You know, it was emotional, but it was sweet, and we, we decided, okay, yeah, we're going to, we're going to try this out and give it a shot.
When you talk about that night, what does it make you feel? Because you're talking about, like, oh my gosh, I, I went through this with this guy and we finally kind of had a really good conversation. I feel like everyone listening can relate when it's finally, like, okay, we need to get to the bottom of it. Are we doing this thing or are we not? If not, no hard feelings, I'm going to go on with my life, but, like, let's hash it out, let's figure it out. And you did. When you look back knowing later that night when you went to bed, your whole life was going to change. Like, how do you feel about that night when you even talk about it?
You know, I've been asked that. It's like, would you take it all back? Like, if you, would you not go over there? Would you not forgive him? Would you, you know, if that meant that none of this would have happened. But in the end, and I'm going to get emotional, it would mean that I wouldn't have him in my life. And he is my person. You know, like, I knew that as soon as I met him. And there's just, like, I didn't really believe and I was giving up on the idea of, like, your, your partner, your other half, like, a soulmate.
You know, I was 29 and I'm like, that shit's not real. Like, it's, it's just, and I was kind of getting, like, solidified in that, like, okay, I'm just going to be independent and focus on my career and, like, I'm, I'm good. Like, I don't need that shit. And, um, yeah, meeting him, I was like, oh, wait, maybe, uh, maybe there's not all douchebags out there. Maybe there's, like, some genuine, like, you know, focused. And, and he had, like, he had a good family and he was really sweet about his family and, um, he shared similar values and interests and, like, we just would hang out for hours and talk and, and still, like, 10 years later, we just hang out and talk to each other.
It's like, what do you talk about? I think that was something the police were like, what do you, like, what do you mean? No, you were fighting. And he's like, no, we weren't fighting. We were just, we, we were talking, we were listening to each other. We were hearing each other. And, um, so, I mean, I think it's sad that some people may not understand that. Uh.
Yeah.
But I feel lucky that I've, I've gotten that from him.
When you went to bed that night, were you like, okay, we're going to try to make this work? Like, were you in good spirits going to bed, would you say?
Oh, yeah. I mean, we were, like, just wrapped up in each other and, yeah, going to bed just thinking, okay, like, you know, I mean, we were emotionally exhausted, but, like, okay, like, this is, this feels like a fresh start. Like, that ghost of the relationship of the past is gone. It's lifted. It's free. Okay. Like.
Yeah.
We can start to move forward.
Can you take me to the moment where you knew, wait, someone's in my house and I'm in danger? And, like, were you just, like, dead asleep, woken up in this moment?
Yeah. I mean, I was dead, I was dead asleep. Uh, I, I thought I was dreaming. So I could hear a strange man's voice and it's like my subconscious was conflicted. Like, it was almost like it was saying, don't wake up, don't wake up. And, but then, I mean, it just, it was relentless and I just suddenly, like, my eyes shot open and my back was turned to where the voice was coming from, but I saw a flashing white light on the wall and, like, three red laser pointers crossing the walls and then they disappear over our bodies.
And so instantly I knew, like, holy fuck, there's people here. We're surrounded. They have guns. Like, this is real. I mean, I, the fear, I, I mean, I, I don't even know if I could ever, like, accurately describe how horrifying that is. And, and instantly knowing, like, there's people here, they've got things set up. Like, they're not just coming in to steal a laptop or something.
Like, this is, like, what, what is this? Why, yeah.
Did you, like, say anything to Aaron or was this just too crazy that you both were just, like, stunned, shocked, didn't say anything?
Uh, I think initially we're both just in shock. Like.
Yeah.
Frozen, trying to register. You know, you're pulled from, like, a deep sleep to then that is just as, like, your body has, has to have time to adjust. And, and then when you do adjust and you're realizing what it is, uh, especially with, like, guns facing you, I mean, what do you do? Scream? What, like, you know, you don't know what these people are here for, what they're capable of.
Yeah.
Um, and so we just listened and then the voice just kept talking also. So it wasn't really, like, we had time to.
Yeah.
To do anything else. He just then started saying, like, uh, he was having me tie Aaron up and he was going to put zip ties at the end of the bed and he backed away and then he was telling me how to tie up Aaron's hands and feet together and, yeah, the whole time I'm just, like, shaking, going, like, thinking, like, am I going to do this right? Am I, you know, I'm just, like, in my head about it. Like, I, I hope I don't fuck this up. I hope that they don't, I, you know, and, and, and as I'm, like, freaking out internally, the voice keeps talking, saying, like, you're doing a good job.
You are staying calm. It was very, like, distinct, almost robotic. It was just so, like, there were so many little pieces of it that was just so hard to even process because it isn't what you would normally think, right? Like, you watch true crime or horror movies and you see, like, this, like, crazy, passionate violence and realizing that criminals can be patient and in control, um, and planned out was, like, even more horrifying to process.
Right. Because I get what you're saying. Like, you'd probably anticipate if someone was going to play it out in their mind, it would be, like, screaming and yelling and, like, just yelling at you to do things. And the fact that you're like, there was, like, this calmness about.
Yeah.
This situation and yet it's so hectic, but, like, how is this person showing patience in the wake of, like, you don't know at this point what they're going to do? When did you realize, like, oh, they're here to take me? Because I'm assuming, like, when you're tying Aaron up, did you think, like, they're going to take him?
No, I thought, well, how, what, what did I not think? You know, I thought, I mean, he woke us up saying, this is a robbery. We are not here to hurt you. And repeated that over and over. Stay calm. This is a robbery. And.
Okay.
The fact that there wasn't immediate violence, I'm thinking and hoping, and also just to keep myself calm, like, okay, maybe this is just a robbery. So they're planning on clearing out Aaron's belongings and they're going to have us tied up and they, they put headphones over our ears and played prerecorded messages of instructions and forced us to take sedatives. And even in that moment, like, I hear the other people downstairs.
I hear drawers opening, like, there's a drill going. So even in that moment, I'm thinking, okay, maybe this is just a robbery and they're just making sure they're going to tie us up and blindfold us and drug us so we pass out and they have enough time to get a clean getaway and we'll come to the next morning and then it's all over. But okay, fine, whatever. Like, we'll be safe. Uh, but, you know, you're still, like, in the back of your mind going, like, you know, are, are they going to torture us? Are they going to rape me?
Are they going to rape him and me? Are they going to make us wha? Like, you know, there's those stories of, of serial rapists doing, you know, so it's just, but you have to, like, also try to figure out how to stay calm and present because if, at least for myself in those moments, I'm thinking if I freak out, like, and I lose my sanity, then that's going to make it riskier for me because I'm not clearheaded and I'm not, you know, like, I might not pick up on some information that could get me out of this alive.
So, like, I just need to, I just, yeah, I just need to calm myself down, stay focused, pay attention, listen, and, and see. Yeah. Um, but the night progressively got worse and they separated me from Aaron and then brought me downstairs and, and then he came in because there was just one man who was speaking and it's the same man who held me captive.
Um, yeah, he came in and he said, this wasn't meant for you. This was meant for, and he named Aaron's ex by her first and last name. And he said, we need to figure out what we're going to do. And I mean, I'm just sitting there going, like, what, like, how, like, how is this meant for anybody? And what the fuck is this?
And then he comes back in and he says, you know, we're going to take you for 48 hours. We're going to put you in the trunk of Aaron's car, put you into a trunk of another car, and Aaron's going to have to complete some tasks for you to be released.
Were you just silent in that moment? Like, did you say anything or you were just in shock?
Uh, just in shock. I think I said okay at some point. Um, at that point, the sedatives had already been kicking in. I didn't know what was happening upstairs with Aaron, but I was hopeful that nothing was happening because I didn't hear any struggle or yelling or anything like that. And I mean, that's really how they could be successful, right? Like, you use the person against the other. You know, if you mess up, if you do anything, we are going to hurt your partner, the person you love.
So I think things would perhaps be a little different if it was just me, you know, like, if it's like, I can risk getting hurt if it's my life I'm risking, but if I might be hurting someone else, then that changes everything.
Like, it's so interesting again, because, like, we never know what we're going to do in these situations until you're in it. And when you talk about it, Denise, of, like, your body just, like, knows what to do in these situations. Like, you having the wherewithal to be, like, stay so calm. I cannot lose my mind even though I want to scream, I want to cry, I want to do all the things, I want to shut down. I have to really be focused and listen. I remember you talking about the car ride. And even though you were on these sedatives, you were kind of, like, trying as hard as you could to stay awake, right?
And, like, just track, like, okay, we turned out of the neighborhood. Like, where are we going? Like, how long do you think that lasted in the trunk when they put you in there that you were trying to just get a gauge of where you were going?
Well, in the first car, I, it was hard to breathe. So as much as I was trying to pay attention, I was really just trying to not panic because I was, I, I felt like I was starting to lose it. And I knew it wasn't going to help me to hyperventilate. And so that's where I was just like, okay, just focus on this. And at one point he stopped and, like, grabbed my arm and he's like, do not scream, do not yell. And I hadn't said anything. So it was just, like, confusing and threatening and, um, and then he stops somewhere and puts me in the trunk of another car and it's smaller, but I could breathe easier.
Um, and he starts going and I could tell we get on a freeway. And yeah, I'm thinking, like, can I, like, kick out a tail light? Like, some other shit you see in movies. But it's like, I don't know what kind of car I'm in. I don't know where the tail light is. Like, I'm crammed. Like, you know, what, like, what do I do? Um, and I think as I was just kind of, like, cycling through all of that, eventually I passed out from the sedatives.
And at this point, when you wake up and you're being brought to this cabin, like, do you have any concept if you're even still in California? Like, do you know where you are?
No, I don't know where I am. Um, but I knew that it had been several hours. My, my, the whole side of my body was going numb. Um, and when he opened the trunk, the way that the light was, I could tell it was probably, like, later morning. Um, and he was, like, struggling to get me out of the trunk. And I knew we weren't, like, under a garage, like, because I could see the light, but then he, like, drops me and then fumbles with me and drags me into darkness.
And I'm thinking, like, where the fuck can we be where no one is seeing this right now? And I don't hear cars. I don't hear, you know, so I'm thinking we're probably in either the woods or, like, a big, more, like, vacant lot of land or something. Um, so I knew we were remote. I could tell it was a, like, single unit home, um, because there was no noises or plumbing or whatever from anywhere else. So.
First of all, I can't even imagine how terrifying, like, when you realize you're basically in the middle of nowhere potentially. And that thought, realizing, like, no one can see me, no one can hear me.
Mm-hmm.
In that moment, like, what were you thinking?
I guess I was just, uh, constantly thinking of all just the horrific things that could happen. Like, the possible torture. Like, if, like, is this what these people do? Like, is this what they, they're really in it for? You know, because at the time too, I'm like, Aaron, like, he has some money, but he doesn't have a lot of money. So, like, we don't have family members who are public figures or, like, political or, or anything.
Like, we're just really just ordinary people. Like, like, I had some money in my mutual funds, but again, it's like nothing substantial. So it really, yeah, I was, uh, it's like, uh, yeah. Um, yeah, it's hard to really think about because, um, you, yeah, you envision just all the possible ways you could be tortured and killed and, like, am I going to bleed out slowly?
Am I going to be raped by how many of them? How, like, how am I going to be able to face and tolerate any of that? Um, but I think in that moment too, knowing that or thinking, like, maybe this is why they do this, I told myself, like, I'm, like, they've clearly systematically laid it out to where I have no defense possible to me.
I'm isolated, bound, I have sedatives, blindfolded. Like, no matter what, even with all of that, I'm still a female. Like, I'm a woman to a man. Like, I can't outrun a man. I can't outfight a man. Like, I, you know, um, so I told myself, like, the only thing I can control is how I react and respond. So if, like, this is what gets them off, if this is what motivates them to, like, you know, submit a cowering, screaming woman, then I'm not going to give that to them.
I'm not going to, I'm, I'm not going to do that. And if it is my last moment alive, I'm not going to go out, like, screaming and crying in horror. Like, I'm going to stay calm and focused and be proud of the life I've lived. Like, I'm not going to give them that. They don't get that. They don't get that last moment of my life. So in a lot of ways throughout it, like, there's, you know, you have to almost detach because you can't really be present in, like, the horror of the situation.
And you have to think of all the possibilities that anything can go wrong. So it's like, if I scream, what's the possibility that they're going to fight back? Like, the more time I spent with him too, like, next to him, feeling his energy, like, yes, he was polite throughout. Like, it was a weird, it was a deliberate, like, procedural politeness, but, like, I could tell, like, bubbling under the surface was this level of aggression, like, like, almost like he wanted me to fight back, you know, to, so he could then, yeah, assert his dominance.
And so I just felt like I was, you know, I was just handling the whole situation and him with care and, um, yeah, he would talk to me a lot in captivity and tell me that he was in the military and had PTSD and couldn't live a normal life. So that's why he's doing something like this. And so I just felt like, okay, like, I felt like maybe there's something in his past that's, like, justifying him to, to do this.
And so I don't want to alienate him. I don't want to create a situation where it's like, you're a crazy monster, you're a bad guy. Like, I just would turn and listen and try to connect with him and talked about therapy. I talked about a childhood trauma. Um, I just thought really, like, my only defense is to show him the human being in front of him and hope maybe he would decide not to kill me.
I can't imagine the mindfuck of you being like, I hate this person. Like, get me the fuck out of here. But then, like, knowing you have to use your, your best possible social skills in that moment, like, you're basically, you never really, really get to see him, right? You're mostly blindfolded. So you're, like, you're saying you're literally reading his, like, energy of, like, his breaths and the way, like, his tone and how he's speaking. Like, you're having to just hear these, like, sensory moments and having to, like, gauge how to respond.
How did that mentally affect you being like, I have to be kind almost to my captor? Like, did it ever have you questioning, like, is he not that bad of a guy?
Uh, yeah. And that was part of it, like the psychological manipulation and that, like, I could tell that that was part of it. You know, it was so deliberate. So I just kind of fed into it. And also too, it's like he would reward me for good behavior. So like after he raped me the first time, I was allowed when I was by myself to take the blindfold off and he gave me, like, toiletries to shower with and food and, you know, so it's like I could see all of this.
It was a way to try to condition me. And at the same time, like, I had to take gratitude in the fact that I wasn't being tortured. And he kept saying, like, oh, don't worry, we're going to release you. And I'm like, you're going to kill me. And he's like, no, we're going to release you. And it's like, how do I trust that? But I had to, like, connect and have him trust me because if he gave me a little bit of freedom, a little bit of reward, and I immediately tried to run or scream or fight, then that would show him that he can't.
And then maybe that would mean he wouldn't trust that he could release me. So like, part of it was like knowing what the conditioning was and then also just like at a certain point, you know, it's like I have to believe that he's not all bad. Like, I have to believe that he's a human being with feelings and that there's some truth to when he says, like, you don't deserve this and I don't want to dehumanize you. And, you know, so it's like I want to believe that because I want to believe that I'm going to get out of it alive.
First of all, I'm so sorry. Like, I, I genuinely cannot fathom what you went through. And it's just incredible that you are able to tell your story today and sitting here. And I commend you for even being able to do things like this right now and talk through this. And I can imagine it's really fucking hard when you're going through this, like, mental warfare of, like, appease, appease, appease. And then he's telling you, like, I'm not going to kill you. I'm not going to kill you. Like, before the assault, did he, like, warn you?
Well, I mean, just being a woman in a situation like that, of course, your first thought is like, I'm going to be raped. Like, it's like, even if that wasn't the intention, because he said that, you know, this is where a black market startup company were hired to fulfill personal and financial debts. And we were hired to target Aaron and, and he kept naming Aaron's ex and, uh, and everything was about protocol.
Like, I have to drug you. Uh, I have to, you know, I have to do this. And, you know, so again, there's like that bit of hope. Maybe that's not what this is about, but it's like, well, but here you have a woman, a body at your disposal. Like, you, you, you are in complete control over it. So like, anyone who inherently, like, who decides that a kidnapping for ransom is a good idea, like a good business model, you know, there's something really dark there.
And so it's like, what's, what's going to, you know, stop them from, from doing that? And, uh, yeah, like later that first day he came in to say because it wasn't meant for me, they didn't have any information on me. So they were going to record him having sex with me. And if they thought I was ever going to go speak to the police, they would release it on the internet.
How did that make you feel? Like, thinking, like, were you even at that point, were you even scared? Like, were you, like, in your mind, like, fuck it, release it on the internet or?
At that point, I just was like, of course this is happening. I mean, you know, it, it had been hours of wondering, like, if that was going to happen. So I, like, as much as I'm feeling like the soul sucked out of me, I'm also like, of course, of course this is going to happen. And, you know, at that point too, it's like, I mean, what, what do I say? Like, what, like, you put me in the trunk of a car. Like, there's nothing I can say that's going to stop this.
And so just okay. Like, I, and I just laid there and, um, and I remember thinking, because he had said, like, it's supposed to look consensual or, um, yeah. And it's just like this, how there's no fucking way this looks consensual. Um, and I had worried that because of that, knowing, like, I mean, I, I to get through it and live through it and survive it, I just, I could feel myself fully detached.
Like, I was floating overhead watching all this happen. And I just had, I just had to detach. Um, but yeah, I was like, this, this, this is going to happen again. Like, I, I know it's going to happen again. And, and then the next day he said, you know, the footage wasn't good enough. And this time you have to, you have to seem like you like it. So we have to kiss and it has to look like we, we're like in a relationship and.
Now in hindsight, when you look back on that, like the protocol and like, we need to film this for the, like, do you believe like it was all bullshit? It was all just in this person's imagination to like make you feel a certain way? Or do you actually believe there was certain things protocol wise that he was actually following?
Well, I, I know that there was more than one person involved because of what we saw and heard and the night of the home invasion and also in captivity, like a different car pulled up and people came out and came inside and they were talking and then left. Um, as far as like, I, I believe that they set up these things as protocol to, um, make them believe that they weren't as bad as they are.
You know, it's like, it was that kind of this military sense of like, I have to do this and then I have to do this and I have to do this. I'm going to set up this whole situation. It's like, but these are all rules that you created, you know? And, and so this is all of your doing. And even when I would say, like, you're going to kill me, I know you're going to kill me. And he's like, no, even if, if that's decided by the other people, like we're, I'm not, I'm not going to let that happen. I have an escape plan for my family. And it's like, so you're still here torturing me for two days and raping me, but you have an escape plan.
Like, you don't have, like, you have to go through with this. Like, but you, I mean, at least you have like some measure of what you won't do. But it's, you know, I, I just, I mean, yeah, I think all of it was, uh, ways to make them feel better about attacking someone. Like, I don't, you know, I have to do this. No, you don't. You don't have to fucking do anything.
What was your lowest moment in the cabin?
The second rape. Because it was very much like a kind of like go fuck yourself. And like, fine, you want me to perform? I'll fucking perform. And like, you're not going to break me. And the only way I was able to get through it was to like just picture that it was Aaron that I was with and that like just haunted me.
And, but like I had to call upon something to like get me through it. Yeah. I mean, at that point, it was already quite low. And, and then he came in at one point to show me an article, um, with my dad speaking.
And I like read the words of my dad's like telling me to be strong, that the family was there. Like I couldn't keep reading the sentence. I just, just like keeled over and was just crying. And he like put his hand on me and I'm just like, fuck off. Like, yeah. And I think he said something like, oh, it must be real for you now.
And it's like, no, like I'm, I can't imagine what my family's going through. Because that whole time I'm like, okay, I got to be strong and get through this. And like, I just could not allow myself to think that my family like knew I was missing or like knew anything. Because like, like I knew what was happening to me, but I can only imagine like his parents, like what would be going on in your mind, like wondering like what's happening to your little girl? Just God.
But yeah, like I feel like especially that moment he showed me that to break me and like it was just so fucking pissed at him for succeeding.
Why do you think he showed you that? He wanted it to rub it in?
I think because he kept saying throughout the whole thing, you're so strong. Wow. Like I didn't, you know, like he'd say like we've studied how victims respond in situations like this. And, and like I didn't expect you to, like he just kept complimenting me and like saying how shocked, which was even more reason for me to not give him anything, you know, like, yeah, bro, like I'm, I'm not going to, yeah, I'm, you're not going to see me scared.
Yeah. But I, yeah, it's like, uh, it was sadistic in a, in a psychological way.
When you were sitting alone in moments when he wasn't with you, like what did you, what kept you going? Like what would you think about that gave you hope to be like, keep it together. We've got this.
My family, my life, my work, Aaron, like I just kept thinking about my future. Like I, it was a balance of like coming to peace with the end of my life because I didn't want if that last moment came, I didn't want to be surprised and shocked and terrified and have it just, and then that's it.
Like I wanted to be solid in the fact that like I, even if I wasn't 30 yet, like I still lived a good life and I had a lot to be proud of and like how lucky am I to have the family I have, the friends I have. And, you know, like I sought out to get my doctorate and be a physical therapist. And I did that, you know, and I, I, but then I was also just trying to focus on my future and like if I get out of this, what's, what, you know, what's next?
And, and so then that could motivate me to continue on. And I like called upon anyone and everyone that I could, like, and, you know, like I'm alone and then God knows where. And then there's this human over here who's just like terrorizing me, but I was just like trying to call upon any energy I could. And like, it's crazy, like after being released and like, I mean, what's sad about it is there was a lot of people when I was in captivity that were praying for me and wishing me well.
And I felt that.
You're trying to like mourn yourself as you are potentially about to die. And that is like, no one should have to do that. And to know the way that it went when you came out, let's talk about that. Because this is where it's like everyone fucking failed you. Your kidnapper tells you he's going to bring you home. Did he explain why?
Uh, he said that he was going to release me. Um, but there was media coverage. Aaron had gone to the police and it would be, I think he used the term, it was too hot in the Bay Area to, to release me. And he also said that he wanted me to be able to get to family. Like I've been through enough. Um, and he asked where, you know, where my family lived.
And he had my purse, my belongings, and it had my mom's home address on it. So it was like, I can't lie. And also, do you want to be able to get to someone? And, and so we agreed on a cross street. And he even said like, well, what if your parents aren't home? What if, and, but I've got childhood friends who live walking distance. I was just like, whatever, like just, yeah, like let, okay, sure. Like if you're going to do it, please. Yeah. Like, and so we agreed on a cross roads that was like a half a mile from my mom's.
And I mean, even on the drive down, like he gave me a higher sedative and I was passed out for like the nine-hour drive, but, um, I still wasn't sure if what he was saying was just going to try to appease me and help make sure that I comply. And, and so when he woke me up and said, we're here, like I just, you know, he said he was in an alley out of view from the street.
And when he drove off, like I still wasn't sure if I was actually where he said I was until I like stepped out and saw the name of the street and was like, I'm home.
In that moment, just on the street, because I know it didn't last long in your brain, did you think like, I'm free, I'm safe?
No, I mean, I never really felt that. I mean, physically, like, okay, like what? He's gone. Like the car, like I've heard it drive off, it's gone. But before he had me out, took me out of the car, he was like, you know, yeah, Aaron went to the police and, uh, you're going to have to talk to them and you can say whatever I told you about the organization, but you can't say two things. You can't say anything about any of us being in the military or anything about us having sex, his words.
Um, and, you know, we know where your family live. Like we, like we monitor victims for years. Based on everything that he had done and said so far, like, yeah, I believe that he, they would be watching me, they would be monitoring me. And so although physically free, I felt like I was going to be confined and restrained by their threats forever.
So when he releases you, I understand what you're saying. You're like, as much as I was free physically, I felt mentally still captive, knowing that this person is like, we're watching your family. Don't do this. Don't say this to the police. Like you're kind of beholden because again, you're now aware of what this person and these people are capable of. And so surviving this awful traumatic experience should have been the end of it for you. You get out and you have a complete new set of problems once you're released from your captor.
When did you start to realize that the police and media didn't believe anything that you were about to tell them?
I think there was moments. So a neighbor at my dad's, my dad wasn't home. She recognized me, brought me in within minutes. There was, um, two Huntington Beach officers there and I spoke to them for like an hour and a half. And as I'm speaking to them, I hear helicopters outside, like the media's collecting, there's people, dogs barking. It was like this, and they're like, oh yeah, it's a, it's a media storm out there. And I'm just like, I, I mean, I thought like maybe there was like a local report from like what he showed me in captivity.
Like I had no clue, like that it was aired, you know, all over. And, and when I'm speaking to the police, I, one moment I see him holding a recording device by his side and he didn't tell me he was recording. And that was like a, like that felt threatening. And I had told the officers too, like I'm afraid of them coming back. I'm afraid of what I say here is going to be leaked to the media and they'll find out.
And it was just like a really horribly conflicted position to be in because I didn't want to lie. But then I'm like, if I speak to them, the chances are I might have to. And so I don't want to do something that can maybe save me, but hurt my family later on. And, um, um, I was also, I remember there was waiting, like they, they said they needed to talk to the Vallejo police.
So we're going to get a hold of them. We're going to get a hold of them. And the time was going on. I'm like, just something didn't feel right. And then when they finally did get connected with the lead Vallejo detective, he had said, uh, that he was going to be offering a proffer of agreement, which is basically immunity. And I'm just like, immunity from what? I'm a victim of a crime. Like I don't, and it made it all more terrifying because of how the whole kidnapping went, like how arrogant my captor was.
He was like, yeah, there's media, but like it's okay. It's going to be good PR for our group. It shows us, it shows, you know, people that they can hire us and we are not going to like overreact and kill the victim. And it's just like, and, and even his threats of like, we'll know what you say, like we'll always be watching. And I was just like, oh my God, is this phase two of the kidnapping? Like, is like, why are the police behaving this way? Like I had family talking to the lead detective and they're like, he's angry, he's yelling, he's cussing.
Like they want you to come up and make a statement. There's an FBI plane here. And, and my family, I have a couple of family members who are attorneys and they're like, no, like we need a criminal defense attorney. Like no more statements. We like, and, and the fact that like people were shocked that I got an attorney, especially the detectives themselves. It's like you offered me a legal agreement and I don't know what the fuck that is. I don't know what that means.
I don't know what my rights are. Like I don't know anything. Like I'm like, how do you expect me to navigate this? Like, so yeah, I'm going to consult with an attorney.
No, but especially when you're like, they're offering me like immunity. You're like, we, I, I was just kidnapped. What do you mean me immune? Like, don't you want me to, don't you want to go catch the guy that just.
And that's why I just felt like, like they're framing us. Like someone's involved in here. Like it was just so like, it, none of it made sense. I didn't like, then who do you turn to? Like who, who do you go to?
So can you quickly just like paint the picture? Like what were the theories people had? What did they believe happened?
They, I don't fucking know. I mean, because all of it doesn't make sense. So like Aaron called 911 and went to the police station and told them what happened. And they immediately said he was a murderer and that, yeah, like they're going to, they're going to find my dead body. Like I'm looking for a dead Denise, not a live Denise. You killed her. You know, either you could be a cold, calculated monster, you could admit you made a mistake. And he just endured 18 hours of interrogation because he thought, I can't admit to something I didn't do.
And if I push back and get an attorney, I'm going to alienate them. And like my main focus is them finding her. So we just thought like, if I endure a little more, a little more, they're going to see the truth and they'll try to find her. And then I was forced to record a proof of life in captivity. So the next day when that was sent, then they immediately went from like, you guys were fighting, so you murdered her to then I made this up to get back at him. But then when I'm released, it's the both of us in on it together to get famous.
I don't like to, like someone had a theory about like wanting to be like reality TV or I, like I don't fucking know. And so Aaron's brother is an FBI agent and he's like, just at the, like she, I had worked in LA right before moving up to Vallejo. He's like, so she, she moves from LA to try to like pursue her, you know, her fame in Vallejo, California. Like what the, like it just, none of it, none of it made sense.
I think another theory that was so terrifying when I was watching the doc was like the fact that Gone Girl, the movie with Ben Affleck, had come out and everyone was like, this is the real-life Gone Girl. Like she's faking her death and then coming back. And it's like how fucked that people were comparing something that actually happened to you and being like, maybe she's trying to be like the movie. Like when you started seeing that, like did you want to fucking scream?
I mean, I, I didn't watch any of that actually. Like the, I was released and then had to immediately go find an attorney, like got to him at 10 o'clock at night and he's like, look, the Vallejo police just held a press conference and completely threw you under the bus and said it was all a lie. So the world thinks you're a liar. Like you're not going to be able to work again. Like you're, you know, so I'm like literally like everything I had focused on in captivity of like I want to get back to my life was just taken away from me.
And I still was fucking terrified that like they were going to come back and kill me. And so I'm like, do I speak to them? Do I not? Like I finally do. And then the next two days is being interrogated by not just the Vallejo police, but also the FBI. I had to go in for a SART exam and my criminal defense attorney's telling me like, look, like it's, it's really grueling. It's like a four-hour long thing. Like they're going to like strip you down. They take pictures of you.
They, you know, examine you internally. And I'm like, okay, like how bad can it be until like I'm fucking there? I mean, it's like the last humiliating like thing that you could go through like so soon after your body being attacked and violated. But it's like, okay, like I've got to do my duty, you know, like I've got to make sure that this doesn't happen to another woman, another person. And then all of that, it was just like used against me.
And remember the second day before I was going in for questioning with the FBI, my attorney said, like they're calling you Gone Girl. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? Is that a bad thing? Like I don't, I didn't read the book. I didn't, I didn't see the movie. I didn't know what the, like I heard about it, but like, like is that bad? He's like, okay, like we're going to go in for questioning, you know, and it's just, and then I think like I watched one Nancy Grace, uh, clip and it was like, I can't, I can't fucking watch a thing.
I think it's also so sad to hear like how many people have said to women, like why didn't you just get like an exam? Like after you were raped, like why didn't you get an exam? And it's like to go through the most violating traumatic experience to then basically reopen your body again to be violated. It's like I just, it's such an awful headspace that people even feel comfortable to ask a question to a woman that's already been violated.
Like why don't, basically, why don't I want to get violated again? Is that what you're asking me? And it's, and it's so frustrating in history. We've seen so many people be like, she didn't get the rape kit because it didn't happen. And it's like, it's so small-minded. And it's also just such from a male perspective. And I know you were dealing with a lot of men in this case that were looking at you wondering why you didn't act a certain way. I mean, I wrote down, people were claiming you weren't believable because you acted too calm. You didn't seem physically injured enough and you weren't sad enough.
How did that make you feel?
I mean, in the moment, I was just shocked by it all. I, I mean, even the questioning, like the FBI agent asked, like, did you scream? Like, no, why? I was woken from a dead sleep. There was multiple people there. Like I didn't, and I think he even asked, like, did you think about screaming? Like somebody asked me that. I remember saying like, well, I thought about it. Yeah, I thought, I thought about all the things, all the things I could possibly do.
Are you fucking kidding me? Like every second I'm trying to like solve the math problem in my head. Like what's the probability of me screaming to get me out alive? Nope. Okay. Like what about me fighting? I'm drugged. Nope. Okay. Can I run? I don't know where I'm at. No. Like, you know, like it's just all, so like what defense do I have? I have my ability to connect with human beings. So okay, like that's my best defense right now. And it got me out alive.
So like fuck all of them for their stupid shit. And you know what? Like just what's crazy about it too is like they're trained to know better. So like Aaron's brother is an FBI agent. He's also, um, in the army. I've had a friend's husband who's a Marine. They're like, they teach us if you are ever kidnapped or taken hostage, that you build a report. Like you, you figure out how to survive. You get food, water, and you build a report to get yourself out.
Like what you did is what we're trained to do. Like I don't want to be like sexist or like put people in a box of like, you know, because they're dudes, they don't get it. But like something isn't clicking and it's not carrying over. Like I know that they get training that not all victims act the same, but they don't treat victims that way. So it's just like what, what has to happen? And then there's a female detective who is the one that like looked outside of the box and saw the whole picture and said, nope, there's another victim out there.
I got to find her. And she's the one that like saved us and saved our lives. And so it's just, you know, when you hear of other cases where it's like the female detective who is linking and so it's like, I, I mean, I think more women in general in the environment with them and like if they actually listen and heard them would be helpful.
Well, I think even what you're saying, Denise too, it's like we, we experience life completely different than men. It's like, oh, I'm sure you would have screamed and then you would have tried to lunge at him and punch him in the face and tackled him to the ground. We can't do that. We physically cannot. We know we're, we're smarter than that. Why didn't you scream? Every woman in the room would be like, duh. Like, of course you didn't scream. But it's like because men are so privileged in those type of moments to just use their like brute force. Like we don't, we can't rely on that.
And so it's disheartening to hear you're staring at all these men being like, what do you mean? Did I scream? Like, of course I didn't scream. And they're like, why? As if you're guilty for something. You're lying. You must be lying.
I mean, everything was about me or Aaron. Like neither one of us behaved in the right way. And it was helpful later on to hear from, um, an expert in coercive control or Richards. She has a podcast, Real Crime Profile, but she was saying it was studied in men primarily like this fight or flight response. It's flight, fight, flight, freeze. And then there's also fawn. And that's the woman's primarily more innate defense of like the please and appease. Like I know I can't fight.
I know I can't flee. Like you went. So then what else can I do? And, and that's what a lot of women have to do. And it is like really infuriating that it's like this day and age, why don't, like we should know better. We know better. We should, right?
It's so interesting. You said that I just interviewed a woman who was attacked by a man, um, and it was Megan Fox talking about being assaulted. And she was like, I fawned. And like I know that was like my initial reaction is don't fight back, de-escalate the situation. And as women, that's like our way to like get ourselves out alive. And again, men are just like, huh? Like you didn't fight back? Like, because I wanted to live.
Yeah, exactly. Like you endure one horror so you can save yourself from another and so you could save your life.
When you're talking to me about this, like I'm trying to even comprehend, like you go through this traumatic experience, you come out, no one's believing you. Like, did in a way that almost feel worse. You're like.
Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. What I deal, the, yeah, the processing through everything, like the pain, all of it, like the, what happened after the kidnapping absolutely has been the hardest part to deal with. Cause I think you can kind of like understand that there's people out there who are motivated to cause harm. And it's just a really unfortunate, horrible situation that it, like we were targeted, it happened.
When you go through a traumatic event, you want to call upon your community, like the people in your life, other humans to help get you through it, to help give you strength and support. Like you were trained your whole life, call 911. If something bad happens, call 911 and they'll help. And they only made it worse. And by their public statements, like people saw my name and saw my face and they thought, gone girl, liar, hoaxer, fraud, you know, and like how can I work again?
Like, you know, like how can I put my hands on another human and have them like trust me with their wellbeing? If they think I'm some con artist. And so like everything I worked for, everything that meant something to me was taken from me. And so it, it was, yeah, it was devastating. Like, and it just was a constant, like I'm not performing well enough for any of you. Like from captivity and the assaults and then the, you know, you're not emotional enough.
You're not, I mean, even though I was sitting there, like with my head in my hands, sobbing to these officers, like somehow that's not emotional enough. Like I'm drugged, but like just, uh, yeah, I mean, everything, even like things that my family told the police, like, oh, she, she runs half marathons and she, she's a fighter and she's strong. And they, they use that against me. Like, oh, you're, you're strong. Like, I'm like, well, I mean, I'm not really, like I'm in shape, I guess, but I'm not like.
Like I'm not fast enough. Like I was, remember telling the law enforcement, like I, I run with Aaron. Like I don't catch, I can't, like we're not on pace. Like I know my strengths and I know my limitations. And that's like really important for me to figure out what to use in a situation like that.
Denise, I am so sorry you had to deal with that. Cause just again, as you're talking about it, I'm like to go from the absolute lowest moment of your life and you're wanting to like fling yourself to everyone and be like, I'm back, I'm alive, I made it. Oh my God. And everyone just slams the fucking door in your face and is like, what the fuck were you doing? You were trying to get famous off of this. And you're like, no, I was just assaulted and abused and like mentally fucked with for how many days? Like, listen to me and no one believes you.
Like I cannot imagine this psychological warfare that must have put you in a spiral of like how did it affect the, during that time, your like day-to-day life? Like did friends turn on you?
My close friends, Aaron's close friends, they all supported us and all believed in us and that, that was, you know, and our families like that, you know, cause you, you can hear and see like how things can get twisted with family or, you know, like the possibilities of that. But like both of our families unconditionally like embraced us and each other. And, and he hadn't met most of my family yet, you know?
So it's like, hi, sir, I'm dating your daughter. Like, you know, like, it's like nice to meet you under these circumstances. It was just all so crazy. Um, but you know, the little bit of stuff I looked on, on social media, the Facebook and like some people who had originally like, oh, you know, she's missing. And then they would post articles, you know, highlighting gone girl and going, I don't get it. And kind of like jumped into that whole, that whole thing.
And, and that was another thing that was really devastating because it's like, okay, maybe like this, you know, officer was misogynistic and stupid, thinks I'm gone girl, but like someone who knows me, you know, and then you think back to all the things that you've done in your life and you're like, if I give them people an excuse to think that I'm this horrible person. And so there's like a lot of self-blame and, uh, like the loss of self and identity.
Um, yeah, I mean, it's people, you know, go out and give their opinion and their hate thinking like, well, I'm allowed to, I'm justified to. It's just words. Like it's, it, it causes a lot, a lot of trauma, a lot of trauma. And it's like you're, you're no better just because you're not hitting someone doesn't mean that you're not causing severe damage.
Until he was like found, what was your lowest moment when you were out? Until he was like found, what was your lowest moment when you were out?
I think the lowest moment was after two days of being interrogated, the FBI agent saying there's a lot of inconsistencies in your story and essentially I don't believe you. And he told my attorney, he was 99% sure I was lying and that my attorney should watch Gone Girl. It was just kind of like, what? Like there's like, all I had was the truth. Aaron, same thing. All we did was just give them, give them the truth.
And it was just like, I mean, how, it's like you're hitting your head against a wall. It like you're in a twilight zone. I mean.
I'm sure you've had through writing the book and the documentary and interviews, like you've had probably some time to think about it. Like why do you think women have to work so fucking hard to be believed?
I think it's still just really easy for people to think that women like are attention seeking and overly dramatic and, um, conniving. I mean, it's really sad. Like it, like even the responses from other women that I got was like, wow, like do you view yourself this way? This is how you see women?
This is really disturbing. But I mean, I think a lot is set up in, in society and I mean, still even now with the Netflix series out and like the truth out, people still criticize Aaron and I not emoting enough and not being believable or just being like vanilla or I mean, you name it.
Well, also like not, you, you literally talk about like dissociating from your body. That can take like a lifetime to like completely repair and re-engage and like get yourself back to a place that you can even like go on with your day-to-day life and not like every day, I'm sure you think about this every single day. This is with you for the rest of your life. Like there's parts that you have to compartmentalize so you can survive, so that you can be with your children, so that you can smile.
And it's like, you're so right. It's like if they cry too much, then like they're performing. If you don't cry enough, then you're soulless. And it's like there is no right answer. And the fucked up thing is all the judgment is coming from people who have never experienced it. How the fuck do you know how you would respond in this situation?
Well, and that's where, I mean, I'm hopeful that the true crime genre is changing and shifting and evolving because that's, you know, people had the wrong perception of how people behave in extreme situations. And again, I can like get why people in the public might, you know, if their only experience is by watching something, but when law enforcement goes to fiction and uses that as a measure to judge people, that's where it's really terrifying.
But like honestly, I finally watched Gone Girl probably like nine months after the kidnapping. Like I couldn't face it. And when I watched it, I was like, it actually released a lot of that self-blame because I was like, it didn't matter what I did. I mean, you're damned if you do, you're damned if you don't. It didn't matter. Like they believed what they believed and whatever I did or said was only going to fit that box. And so I was able to kind of release myself from it.
Like this wasn't about me. Like that's not, it's not me. It's, it's their view of someone, of women, of whoever, but it's, it's not me.
No, it's like, I remember talking to Amanda Knox and her being like, all of a sudden I turned around and it was like about like a, it was like a sex case where I was like this crazy woman that was like having threesomes and Amanda was like, wait, what? Like how did, yeah, someone just died? Like, can we go find the person that like, I'm having threesomes with my roommate? Like this is not, and people love to, for, especially for women, there's like this narrative. You're right that it's like, they want us to play into this role. And I think why it's hard to believe us is because people don't want to, because it will completely disrupt the societal norms of like men dictate, women are like emotional and erratic and dramatic.
And that's how everyone wants to be. Because if we actually start listening to women and we start taking what they're saying at face value, what is that going to do to the people that run the entire fucking country?
Yeah, I, I think people just don't want to admit how bad it is. Because then if you know how bad it is and you're not doing anything about it, then you're complicit.
When your kidnapper was arrested and people started to realize you were telling the truth the whole time, how did that make you feel?
I mean, it all, it all felt horrible. I mean, it really did. It, cause when we found out about it, he got caught for attacking another family. And then we were reading in the FBI affidavit that there were calls that were placed the first night I was in captivity that the police could have traced back to the location I was in captivity in.
And they could have saved me. And even if for whatever delay they couldn't have saved me and I was still released, they could have explored that and caught him. And instead they were just so focused on being right that another family was attacked. And it took a detective, a female detective, Misty, to look beyond her case.
She noticed there was a blonde hair on goggles and her victims all had dark hair. And so she thought, there's more to this. And even that, like she came up with a lot of resistance trying to pursue that beyond the case that was in front of her. And so it's just like, I mean, I'm glad like she's our hero and we're fortunate to have our life back and for people to know the truth, but it's just like so frustrating because at what cost, you know?
And, and even after that, like there's no accountability, there's no real like, sorry, we did this. We're going to make sure we'll never do it again. You know, so it's just like, it's just one disappointment.
Didn't the male officers literally get promoted?
Yeah. The lead detective got officer of the year.
It's like.
That year. And we named him in a civil lawsuit too, like that year. He like messes up their, like the, you know, the most publicized case they've had in a while get named in a lawsuit, but they like have to stroke his ego so much to, to give him officer of the year. It's just.
It's fucking disgusting. And I even just that right there is such a testament to like the world we fucking live in.
What is encouraging is that there are so many law enforcement officers who've reached out to us, especially with the Netflix series coming out and being like, this is awful. This is not how it should be. We wanted they're like dedicated to make change. Um, and so, you know, that's something that Aaron and I want to do is like speak with law enforcement and work with them and see like how, how can we all do better? Let's work together and, and, and really what, what's our common goal?
Like let's, let's just all help each other and be there for each other.
What would you say to anyone that's a woman listening or watching today that has come forward to share her story in some capacity and wasn't believed? Like.
I feel you. Um, I think the biggest thing, um, I'm just going to get emotional, but just always believe in yourself. There was times just both Aaron and I like question our own sanity. Like, did this really happen? Am I, am I who I believe I am? Or am I this horrible person that no one can believe in? You know? And so like, I think sometimes it's human nature too to like blame yourself because the only thing you can control is yourself.
So if it's your fault, maybe, maybe then you could protect yourself better later on. And so it's kind of hard to actually just, yeah, release yourself from that and go just, it's not my fault and I did the best I can and I'm not going to let anyone gaslight me. And like, I mean, even with the assaults for me, like I like had this view, like it's not all that bad. It wasn't that bad.
And the FBI affidavit, it said there was no signs of non-consensual sex. So it was just like, like time and time again, like it wasn't that bad. She came up unharmed, unscathed, like all these things that just cut away, like devaluing how I felt and what I went through. And so, yeah, I think just like the biggest thing is just to believe in yourself, like never give up on yourself. That can be really hard sometimes, you know?
How have you been trying and like what has the process been to like reclaim your relationship to your body after this?
Um, well, it's still an evolving process. Um, yeah, we've gone through therapy, like Aaron and I've gone through couples therapy, um, individual therapy and, you know, try to work on like moments of gratitude and, and being present in the moment and appreciating just like life in general and all the little moments in life.
Um, and I've had body work done and tried meditation and, and, you know, just even like working out, boxing, like different ways to like feel empowered and strong, um, speaking, um, kind of taking the narrative back and has been helpful. And even just like journaling it was helpful. Um, you know, but it's, yeah, it's still like just, it's, there's a lot of deep pain.
So like I am exploring more therapy now and I think just kind of admitting to myself, ourselves times when it's like, okay, like we need to, to refocus and, um, and so I'm, I'm looking into EMDR because I hear great things about it. So like that's, I'm hoping that that can help some of that just, because there's like a disconnect, you know, like from logically what I know versus like what my body feels and processes.
And so I just need to find a way to reconnect those two things.
I think that, like you said, speaking about it in a way that like you're reclaiming the narrative, I think for women listening, like everyone has to take their own time and like how, you know, when you're ready to try to start to heal again. Like I know there's probably so many people that are like immediately get into therapy, like throw yourself into therapy. Like some people can't do it immediately. Like you need time.
There's layers upon layers of the trauma too. So like trying to peel that back or like something that might be triggering then isn't as much now, but then there's something that's different, you know? I mean, being a parent is like another amazing, wonderful thing. And then also like brings up a lot of fear and worry and, but then is also a motivator to, to speak out and demand that things need to be better. Like things need to be better for them.
Um.
I think a lot of people, I'm sure were like, how did you and Aaron decide to stay together? Cause I was thinking about that. I'm like, on the one hand, I would think like, oh my gosh, he's the only person that understands it. He went through with you. On the other hand, I'm sure people would be like, you're each a living reminder of the trauma. Like, was there ever a moment you weren't sure you were going to stay together? Like, how did you decide?
I mean, I think I, we both knew, even just, you know, back up to that night of the home invasion, like we, we knew that we were meant to be together and overcoming something like this and living through it and surviving it together. I mean, it could break a lot of people up for sure. And I could see how that could happen. Um, but we really like support each other and our patient with each other and we never blamed one another.
I mean, I think that's like one of the biggest things. It was never like pointing the finger of like, you should have done this or said this or whatever, you know? So we're like each other's biggest fans and we, we really try to like lift and support each other. And, um, yeah, and, and I think too, just like having good communication and admitting like, okay, this isn't working right now. Like something needs to change and being able to have the space to, to have those conversations because, um, yeah, there's, yeah, there's just different things that can come up.
Do you still live in constant fear?
It comes and goes, but yeah, when I, yeah, um, and then the speaking out publicly, like when I, when we released the book and even just now with the Netflix series, it's like I keep thinking I'm, I'm at a better place. I know I'm at a better place, but it, again, like the public shaming mixed with thinking that I was going to be killed, it just brings all of that up.
And so, yeah, the hypervigilance and like thinking of and imagining all, all the things that could happen is, uh, distracting. Yeah.
You have two children.
Mm-hmm.
Congratulations.
Thank you.
Um, as you mentioned, like I, I can imagine for you, it's a, it's terrifying to just have children in general, cause all you want to do is protect them. On top of that, you're dealing with something that is an extraordinary trauma. Like, have you guys talked about how you will explain this to your children one day?
I don't know exactly when that conversation will happen or exactly how that will look like, but I know that they will know what happened to us. And I think, you know, as they get older and even just little things of like teaching them consent and boundaries and, you know, respecting their body and other people's bodies and, and so incorporating what we've gone through in small moments like that and kind of building blocks.
Yeah. I still don't know the exact right age for, for when like, and then I'm sure it'll be parts of it and, but I definitely don't want to keep anything from them. I want them to know that no matter what happens in their life, that they can always come to us and be honest with us and we will always support them. And I definitely want them to know their value and their worth and not let anyone dictate that to them.
And, um, you know, it's good to be strong, but fighting doesn't always have to be what it people think it is. You know, there's, um, power and strength and, and patience and, and yeah, you don't have to be aggressive and instantly react to be powerful and strong. Um, but, you know, I mean, I'm sure I'm going to get them in like martial arts and all sorts of stuff too, you know, like, but I mean, I think it's just good to like mechanically, you know, the PT nerd in me, um, is just, you know, physically, that's a good idea, but, um, you know.
How have you changed as a person after surviving this horrific experience?
I think there's a, a lot that's changed and then a lot that hasn't, you know, in some ways I feel like, especially kind of going through the process of, of trying to eliminate the self-blame and all of that, I've become more grounded and confident in who I am at my core and realizing, no, I'm not what all these people thought or said. I, I know who I am. I know who I am in the world and to other people, to my family.
Um, you know, I think a lot of people would think that you could get quite jaded, um, after going through something like this, but I, I just, I mean, I'm try to be practical and cautious, but I also do still see the good in people and in the world. And so I, I want to try to like harness that and use that and, and turn it and keep kind of setting the motion towards positivity and, um, but yeah, I mean, there's, I'm going to have a lifelong battle of dealing with trauma and pain.
Yeah.
But I know that I can do that. I can still have joy and gratitude and enjoy moments and life and laugh and be silly and joke and, you know, I can still have all the good, even with all of this, you know?
Totally. Last question. What change do you hope comes for survivors and women by telling your story?
I mean, at the core baseline is just, again, for, for women to believe in themselves. And I'm hoping as more survivors speak out, it empowers others. I know that I was definitely empowered by watching others speak out and realize like, okay, like maybe I could do that too. And, um, yeah, if, if we just hear from more people and we realize what the issues are, then we have a better idea of what needs to change.
Yeah. I also think, and like, cause I have so many women that listen, and I think something that stuck with me when you were talking about it, Denise was like reading online, like other women speaking about you in a way that you were like, is this how we like think of each other? And it makes me so sad, honestly, because it's like if all we have at some point is each other, like every woman can relate in some capacity to each other of like, we know what it's fucking like.
We know the sexualization. We know people don't believe us. We know we're told to be silent. We know all of this. We've lived it. We, we, like you said, we grow up watching it in art and movies and books everywhere. It's like there's this romanticizing when a woman is weak and doesn't stand up for herself. And when a woman does stand up for herself, you're demonized and you're a bitch and you're loud and you're obnoxious. And if a man did the same thing, it just wouldn't be, it wouldn't be taken the same way. And so it's like how I appreciate, aside from the work you're also doing in law enforcement right now, also just for women of like, this is a really important conversation that you're someone that came forward and should have been, you should have been believed and you went through something horrific.
And sadly, like a lot of the themes, a lot of women listening have probably gone through, like one in three women is assaulted. It's like these are things of us just constantly, like you said, when he's going away to jail and he'll be released when he's 70 or it's like, no, no, it's a power dynamic. It's like men getting off on making us feel small, making us feel weak. How do we as women just start to like fucking support each other a little bit more and believing each other? Cause they're not going to believe us because it threatens everything in society. If we start to rise up and we start to be considered equal, then everything is going to fucking flip on its head.
So how do we at least have a little bit more of unity with each other to be like, I see you, I've been there and I don't know the answer. I think it's important to talk.
I mean, yeah, talk and hear and listen and, and just try to remind ourselves like no matter what you think or think you know of a situation, you don't know it all. Even if it's something small, you know, like, like office gossip or something, like you, you just, you just don't know. And I think we just need to recognize that and try to empathize with people and, and just, just try to receive each other with a little bit more openness and love and the very least try to like recognize when we're being judgmental and, and not act on that judgment would be nice.
Yeah. I cannot thank you enough for coming. I think back to what you said where you're like, I did react exactly how I should have reacted. And you're so right. Like you did every single thing that you could have done to survive and then some. And for anyone to judge you on how you responded to something that most of us can never fathom going through and surviving, like shame on everyone for failing you. And I'm just so happy that I got to speak with you because the Netflix documentary, like yes, it was, it was very in detail and I got to see a picture of it, but speaking and being able to like look you in the eyes and like seeing how this is affecting you day to day, like, yeah, I pray to God that this conversation and what you're doing out there can like help the next woman that goes through this.
And then everyone's like, no, we believe her and we see her and this is going to make a difference. So thank you so much for coming. I really appreciate it.
Thank you for having me.
Join Alex in the studio for a powerful interview with kidnapping and assault survivor Denise Huskins. In 2015, Denise was taken from her boyfriend’s house in the middle of the night. She was held for days, drugged, and assaulted before finally being released by her captors. But when Denise told the police what had happened to her, nobody believed her. In fact, they attacked her. They called her a liar, hoaxster, fraud, and the real life “Gone Girl.” They claimed she’d made it all up for fame and attention. Today, Denise is here to tell her incredible story of overcoming trauma, staying calm in the midst of chaos, and fighting for the truth. This is an important conversation about what it takes for women to be believed, the problem with victim blaming, and how Denise was finally able to reclaim her name and her life.
This episode discusses adult subject matter, including descriptions of sexual violence, and is intended for adult consumption only. Listener discretion is advised.
Listen to Denise Huskins audio book: Victim F: From Crime Victims to Suspects to Survivors.
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