Transcript of The Bachelor Who Was Betrayed | BONUS

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Hi, it's Jill Wintersteen, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible.

Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns.

The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves.

So I'm, like, delusionally proud of my chart.

Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to no time. 99 years until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster.

Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Good people, what's up, what's up? It's Questlove. So recently I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with, uh, actress and producer Jamie Lee Curtis. From Routines to Recovery, True Lies, and a certain Jermaine Jackson music video, Jamie's real and raw and And it's something I really admire about her.

I am so happy that I'm the head bitch in charge at 67, that I have the perspective that I have at my age to really be able to put all of this into context.

Listen to The Questlove Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi everyone, Andrea here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an 8-episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal: Secrets and Lies. And it premieres this Sunday, March 29th, at 10:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, 9:00 PM Central. Please check it out.

I'm here today with Stephanie Young and Clayton Eckard. You are the host, and you are the storyteller of our Glass Podcast and iHeart's new podcast, Love Trapped. We're in Austin, Texas. This is really exciting. For people who don't know, Love Trapped is about your story, Clayton.

Mm-hmm.

And your relationship with Laura Owens, which started as a business transaction and then turned into a paternity scandal, and then a 3-year pursuit for justice.

Yes.

You guys have done an incredible job, and I'm just glad to talk a little bit about your show and why it's right for The Betrayal audience. Thanks for joining me today.

Thanks for having us.

Thank you for having us.

For The Betrayal audience, can you tell them a little bit about who you are and what you do for the show.

My name's Stephanie, and I am the producer, writer, and host of Love Trapped. I've been working on this since June of last year, so we're coming up on almost 10 months, and I think I've needed that entire time to do all of the research for this project.

And I am Clayton, and I am the liver of this whole— experience.

It's your life.

Yeah. But I've been really grateful that I have a platform to help not only me, but the other victims with receiving justice.

Give me a little bit of a top line about what's been going on for you in your life over the last few years and why you need justice.

I— well, I think you hit the nail on the head. It's been 3 years. Of my life that I am not able to let go of until there's resolution. And currently it's just slowly chugging along and she's still out there and about and, you know, has looked for her next victim. And for me, it's a matter of being able to stop all of this and make sure that she doesn't have the ability to continue to perform these antics that she's done for 10-plus years. This, this goes far before, you know, beyond me.

So a little bit about Love Trapped. It's the story of your post-Bachelor life, your experience on the show. You are still a Bachelor yourself. Yeah, but your experience on The Bachelor. And so we meet you on this podcast after, like, in the aftermath of that and through your move to Arizona You end up meeting a woman named Laura Owens, and through that meeting, that chance encounter, all this craziness and complicated stuff comes out of that, that meeting.

Yes.

When I first heard about your story, it feels like a brief romantic experience with a person. Mm-hmm. It doesn't work out. There's a moment of rejection that Laura can't face, and there is fallout from that. And what was that like? How would you define that fallout?

One of the darkest energies that I've ever experienced. It was so uncomfortable that I had instant chills. And before she sent me the messages saying she was pregnant, I— I had the exact thought in my head that I don't know what that just was, but whatever it was, it's far from over. And lo and behold, 11 days later from that point, you know, she sends the initial messages that she's pregnant. But it was a very, very uncomfortable presence. It was just, it was as if the lights went off and she was no longer there. It's like nothing I've ever experienced.

Right. So it became really clear that she wanted a romantic relationship with you. She wanted to have a dating relationship with you, a long-term relationship with you. And when that didn't work out, she was telling you that she was pregnant. And there was this, um, she wanted to be connected with you in some way and was trying to leverage this idea of you being potentially the father to stay in connection with you and was doing whatever she could to stay in connection. In connection and keep you on the, on the hook. One of the things that I think a lot of our betrayal listeners will relate to is that moment of when the mask comes off. We talk about it a lot, actually. There is a moment in time when a lot of the storytellers I work with, where they discover, like the, the day of discovery, the husband that they've known for 25 years then reveals their double life, and they physically change. Their voice changes, their face looks different. So, I think a lot of our listeners and others can really relate to that moment of you saying no to Laura, and then something shifts.

Yeah, I mean, I was just going back as you were describing that, back into that moment, and I just got chills again because her demeanor went from crying to stone cold, just expressionless. And there was this— darkness where her eyes didn't go all fully black, but it felt as if they did. And it was just this instant. I said, no means no, Laura. There's nothing more here to explore. She wiped her last tear and she said, no, I understand. Have a great day. And it was just this— it was like two separate entities. Like, I was talking to one version, and then all of a sudden, there was a switch that flipped. I mean, it was that sudden. So it's interesting that you say that that's what other people have experienced because I, yeah, I saw it face to face and I've just never experienced something like that.

Yeah.

After that interaction in the car, what happened from there? Tell us a little bit about the harassment and then everything you had to go through.

Yeah, so we were involved in a real estate transaction. She reached out to me originally to do real estate. You know, I made the mistake of mixing business with pleasure and it was a—

Lesson learned.

Yeah, lesson learned. I don't do that now. But I, you know, crossed that boundary. But then I had mentioned to her that in the car the next day, I said, that was unprofessional. You know, I can pass you off to another agent. She said, no, I want to work with you. I said, okay, let's keep it professional from here on out. She said she agreed to it, but then she kept going back to trying to make it more than that. So over the course of the next few days, it was this, well, hey, I actually still want to explore this. And then it got to the point of, if you're not willing to explore a relationship, I'll just go work with somebody else. To which I said— called her bluff. I said, "Okay, then go do that." And then she said, "No, no, I really want to work with you." So it was this back and forth. And then ultimately, she just kept texting me, kept texting me. And then she started alluding to the fact that she was fertile and she knew that she was fertile during this period of her life. And she was concerned that night, even though we didn't have sexual intercourse, that when we were grinding, something could have— fluid could have been transmitted.

So she starts alluding to it before she said she was pregnant. And I'm like, "No, I'm not doing this." And so I was like, "Hey, I'm gonna block you like this. I, I don't want anything more to do with you. Like, please stop texting me or harassing me, because there's constant messages coming in. We're talking paragraphs long. Um, so I end up blocking her, and then that was, you know, 11 days, or probably a few days later after that. On day 11 from the time from when we originally hooked up was when I got that email from her, and she had sent over a positive pregnancy test and like a doctor's note. Yeah.

And so it really has been this journey of proving that she could have never been pregnant, that you are not the father.

You want to advance your education but not on a traditional path? At Rasmussen University, you'll find flexible and engaging online experiences, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. You may also qualify for a new laptop when you enroll in select online or on-campus programs. Enroll for a fully online program or on one of their 20 campuses across 6 states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu.

Hi, this is Jill Wintersteen, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with a mini driver.

The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men.

Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives, and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius, like, are misunderstood. A Sun and Venus in Aquarius in her 7th house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.

He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places.

But just an embracing of the isness of it all.

If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must-listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

In 2023, Former Bachelor star Clayton Eckard found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth.

You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct?

I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for.

Sunlight's the greatest disinfectant.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Marancini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news out of Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted —on fraud charges.

This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Listen to the Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime.

He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground.

He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real.

I thought it was a mistaken identity.

The best lie is partial truth.

For 22 years, only 2 people knew the truth. Until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

What has it been like covering this story, Stephanie?

It's been mind-blowing because every time you think that you've heard it all, there's something else that comes out, and you're just like, "This can't possibly be real." And I think one of the most mind-blowing things is the timeline of events. So, in betrayal, you just mentioned, like, some of these people have been together for 25 years. And it's that, you know, shock of being betrayed by somebody that you've known that long. With Clayton's case, he met her via LinkedIn message on May 17th. The hookup happened on May 20th, and then by June 1st, she was pregnant. So this is like a speedy timeline compared to some of the betrayal stories. So that to me is shocking. And covering that part of it, it's just like, whoa, this is like a very quick timeline to go from 0 to 100.

And the unrelenting barrage of information. Because she then filed— like, you've become embroiled in just a legal battle.

Yeah, she filed a parenting plan, uh, which I couldn't believe and was in shock that I had to respond to it via the court system. Otherwise, uh, they would submit a default judgment, and most times they would assume— the majority of the time, people filing parenting plans are actually pregnant. So I was going to throw away the paperwork, and then I had someone on the legal side of things that said, uh, no, you can't do that, you need to respond bond. And I went into the court, and I— he— the judge asked me why I was, you know, countering this, you know, parenting plan. And I said, because, uh, there are no children. He said, you mean like they haven't been born yet? I said, no, there's no child or children. Like, they don't exist. And he just looked at me, he's like, are you— are you being serious? Are you messing with me? I said, no, I'm telling you, she's making all this up. And he was just perplexed. And he goes, okay, well, I'll push this up the court. So he, like, basically just, like, pushed it into another realm of the court.

But it was— yeah, I'm like, I felt ridiculous. The whole thing was ridiculous. I'm like, I don't know how to respond to this. She's making it up. How do I prove this? And that's, you know, where we end up going with it was, okay, well, let's get her to prove pregnancy because, I mean, that's how I get out of this, you know, because this, this is something that now she's gonna hold over me. And how far is she gonna take this? And, you know, as we've just recently uncovered, obviously, through the timeline of this podcast, like, she took it public. So then it became a, "I need to prove to the public now, according to public opinion, I have to be able to prove that this is all a lie." Yeah.

I wanna jump in and just say that from the time that she told Clayton she was pregnant to the time that she filed in the court in Arizona, it was only about 8 weeks. So she was technically still in her first trimester. Trimester. And as a woman, you know that most people don't tell people that they're even pregnant until after the first trimester.

12 weeks, really. Right. Yeah.

So I think that was another interesting part of this, that from the time that she found out she was pregnant to the time that it was filed to establish paternity in the court, there was only 8 weeks.

Well, I think what's interesting too, for one, you can tell she has the timelines better, better than I do at this point.

Yeah, for sure.

You know, for me, I mean, I just, it just feels like a blur of 3 years. You know, it's like I, the emotions are so strong, but I, I don't know know exactly on what dates these things happen. Um, it just felt like it all was smushed together. But the other side of it too, um, you see the ignorance of a man to— you know, people go, oh, come on, day 11 and she's pregnant? Why would you even take that up and believe that in the first place? Um, but because I was Googling. I mean, as a man, I had no idea. I'm like, I don't know how to fact-check this, or— and I wasn't bringing it to my family originally, so this was just me. Living this experience. And I'm just Googling, and Google was like, yeah, I mean, technically someone could miss their period and like show signs of pregnancy or be test positive as soon as like 10 days. So I was like, well, we're on day 11. So it was just one of these things where at first I'm fighting this alone. Obviously I don't want this to get out to the public, but it's, you know, there's like, I also don't understand what I'm up against because I'm like, I don't know.

I mean, I'm a guy, like I don't know if this is possible. And so I'm just constantly Googling. And I she was also, you know, doing her homework.

Yeah. Yeah. We do often deal with stories of people who are intimate partners or relationships that have been built over a number of years. This is about two strangers meeting. How did that affect you emotionally, having your life completely upended? Like, do you think about, if I just didn't respond to that LinkedIn message? Like, where does your mind go?

Yeah, you know, it depends when— if you ask that question 6 months ago or even 3 months ago, and as opposed to now, I mean, I've found the silver lining in all of this, but it certainly messed with me. I mean, I lost a lot of trust in people. I mean, I became very protective of my energy, which I needed to be more protective, but I almost like overcompensated. But it's something where I struggled to function on a daily basis because it I really felt, I mean, very quickly I realized this individual was looking to destroy me emotionally and render me useless. I mean, take me out of my ability to be able to function and work my jobs. And, you know, it just felt very suffocating. And this person also had time on their hands. I mean, she was working around the clock. I'd get emails just all throughout the day. And as people find out, she doesn't have a job. So she made this her full-time job. And it was very suffocating. Yeah, it was just hard to go about my daily life and like you have this happening in the background. And I mean, a lot of us can relate to this.

If you have, you know, someone that's, you know, abusive or somebody that has some news that they're like, I'm gonna, you know, share this news with, like, or they're threatening you in some capacity, it's basically the thing that's on your mind at all times.

It's stress.

Yeah, it's just constantly weighing on you. So no matter what else you're doing in life, in any moment of silence, you just go right back into that box, you know, that I so hard, like, tried to compartmentalize. I just pushed everything in. I'm like, I have to go about my life, but this box exists. But any moment of silence, you know, where things slow down in life, you just go right back into the box. You're like, I can't help this because this is out of my control too. Yeah, you know, there's somebody on this other side that's plotting, and you don't know what their next move is going to be.

Have you, like, envisioned what life would be like when you're done dealing with Laura Owens, or do you feel like it's always going to be there?

I'll be able to let go of a lot of anger. There's a lot of anger that's rooted in this, not only just at her, but within myself. And I have to give myself grace, but I do see, obviously, that This was all brought on, I mean, partly of my own doing because of the actions I took. But even leading up to it, I mean, I was utilizing marijuana at the time to cope with the stress from the reality television experience that I just recently realized I still have not gotten over. I still harbor a lot of anger from that whole experience. And so there's parts of me that say, yeah, I mean, if you were able to have healed from these experiences, you wouldn't have found yourself back in this, this cycle. You wouldn't have subjected yourself to this kind of energy. Yeah. But you did because you're not healed to the degree where you wouldn't place your energy in a person like her. And, you know, that's, that's something that I, I do understand is like, hey, you could have avoided this, but ultimately you were what you were when you first met her, which was a damaged individual.

Yeah.

You want to advance your education, but not on a traditional path? At Rasmussen University, you'll find flexible and engaging online experiences, tuition savings options if you qualify, exceptional student support, and much more. You may also qualify for a new laptop when you enroll in select online or on-campus programs. Enroll for a fully online program or on one of their 20 campuses across 6 states. Start when you're ready and get the support you need. Visit rasmussen.edu.

Hi, this is Jill Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with Minnie Driver.

The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're gonna have a terrible time with men.

Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives, and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius, like, are misunderstood. A Sun and Venus in Aquarius in her 7th house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.

He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the is-ness of it all.

If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chartside view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must-listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckard found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth. You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct? I doctored the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case. I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for.

Sunlight's the greatest disinfectant. They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Gillespie and Michael Marancini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news out of Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges.

This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime.

He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground.

He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, Lord, this can't be real.

I thought it was a mistaken identity.

The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only 2 people knew the truth until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

One of the things that we do on Betrayal is every storyteller works with a mental health provider or a therapist, life coach, in each season to unpack a certain part of their story. And a little bit of a preview for season 5 is Saskia's working with Jessica Baum, They do a— Jess specializes in Imago therapy, which is really understanding, like, it's inner child work. And, you know, when I met Saskia, she really wanted to unpack her childhood and really figure out what is her relationship with her self-worth and how she understands love and validation that ultimately led her to Mike Levin-Good. And we hear those conversations in her therapy sessions, but it is real— like, it is important because as much as is, um, we can't control Laura Owens. We can't control Mike Leppengood. All we can do is really look internally at ourselves and say, it's not our fault, but how did I get here? And it's just a really fascinating conversation, and it's work to be done. And like, to do that work and to have that perspective, you should be proud of yourself.

Yeah. And I, I appreciate that. I, uh, also just understand that, um, yeah, I mean, my environment, has obviously influenced me, and I've also went back into my childhood, and I've seen why I've become the way that I have and why I take certain actions and subject myself to certain people. Maybe there was a lack of something in my childhood that I'm, you know, seeking, and there's certain things that I've uncovered. But ultimately, too, I think it's just as important in order to heal from that and overcome it, you have to accept accountability that while you were doing the best with what you could, you know, you are still someone— like, you made decisions to put put yourself in those, in a position like that. It doesn't make it right, doesn't make it right that someone took advantage of me or anybody else. But there is the, okay, hey, I want to better myself, so I need to understand that like I found my way here, but I can also take myself out of it. I mean, we're all doing our best, right? So there's, there's no victim blaming that should be had. It's more just, hey, I am a human being for the better and for the worse.

I've made decisions in my life, my environment's impacted me, but I also want to be a better human. So how can I make sure that I don't find myself myself in this position again, you know, what steps do I need to take to become stronger and more resilient and just have more self-love? Because I, I believe that me with more self-love again would have never interacted with somebody like her.

Yeah, I think something too that's so interesting from my perspective is the way that his emotions have shifted over—

oh, you've seen it?

Oh yeah, over the last 9 months. You know, there's times where he's really angry. There's times where he's sad. There's times where he's willing to forgive. And then there's times where he's like, "No, I'm actually really mad." So, to see this roller coaster of emotion over the past 9 to 10 months has been interesting from my perspective.

We talk about that a lot on Betrayal, about how progress isn't a straight line, and like healing isn't linear. And sometimes you're just going around because you're meeting the experience at different phases of your own healing journey and your own— like you're reading, you're engaging in certain books and podcasters and like material to better yourself. And so it makes you look at your experience in a different way. You know, um, like you were talking about, what are you reading right now? Uh, The Artist's Seduction. Probably not the best for that show, but, but like you're constantly, you're trying to, but you're working through your experience. And so it's gonna bring up complicated feelings about different choices and the different fallout. The last thing I want to say about the betrayal, what I think the audience is really going to relate to, is your journey with the justice system. Because this is something that we cover a lot. You know, I deal with storytellers that, you know, despite fear, despite being in a really dangerous situation, they couldn't get protection from abuse. They really had to fight tooth and nail to get any acknowledgment from the court system.

And so, what was it like What is complicated about your story as someone who's actually being able to navigate the criminal justice system pretty seamlessly, and in ways that our storytellers actually struggle to, which is gonna be really hard for some of our listeners to listen to, but it's fascinating. What is it like to be in a courtroom? Like, in the scene that you were just telling me about, it's a serious place with serious people. But what are we even talking about here? There's not even a real pregnancy. It's absurd. Yeah. Like, that duality is mind-bending.

Yeah. I had a little level of confidence early on, probably because watching so much Law Order growing up. So I, as people found out early on, I had so much confidence that I self-represented, which I didn't do for too long. But I showed up with my glasses and my tucked-in shirt and my briefcase and—

binge suits and was like, I got this.

Yeah. And I, but I ultimately thought, hey, look, like, this is a ridiculous claim and I'm the one that's telling the truth. I mean, all I have to do is just speak my truth. So I did have a level of confidence, which again, I would also say based on like, I played, you know, D1, Division I football. I was on the Bachelor. I was in high stress environments. So to me, I had a level of comfort and confidence going into the courtroom and truth on my side. That being said, I realized very quickly that I could not keep up with the jargon, you know, the court jargon that I was like, oh wait, I'm over here raising my hand. I'm like, I don't even know if I, what, can I speak? Can I not? Uh, it was a surreal experience. And obviously I real, I was like, look, I have to take this seriously because I could get caught up in a technicality, even though I'm telling the truth, I could get caught up on some technicality where she could end up then, you know, winning.

Right. And it's a really, um, hard lesson to learn, especially about our justice system, that sometimes the last thing that matters is actually the truth. Right.

They have, again, like there's technicalities here and there and you start seeing these arguments be brought up like by her counsel where I'm like, that's ridiculous, but they're just trying to stick on one little exception. And it's like, but that could blow the whole thing up. If you have one little hole in the argument, they can just blow that up and then say the rest of it is no longer usable. And that is what really I realized. I'm like, this is actually very like you have to be so specific and you really can't have any flaws in your arguments. And so, obviously, I have legal representation now, and that's helped out a lot. And I got that, you know, because of the privilege that I've had of being on reality television and being a celebrity to some degree. Most people don't have that luxury. If I wasn't a celebrity, I wouldn't have had the support. And obviously, the previous victims, they did not have that support. I think that is something that rightfully has agitated some people. They go, this is, you know, lucky for you. I mean, because I wish I could have had support and I'm very blessed for that.

But it is unfortunate that if you have some level of status, you have a better chance of navigating the court system. I think there are a lot of victims out there that are afraid because they don't have the financial resources, they don't have the legal representation. And it can be a very scary thing when you go in front of a judge and, you know, you don't know what words to say. And all of a sudden you're up against someone's legal counsel that has money and they just start hammering you with these technicalities. And yeah, I mean, again, I've watched the previous victims get run out of court because she had more money, more resources.

Has she bankrupted any of them? Like, you could have easily. Yeah.

Well, she's, I mean, she's cost them thousands of thousands of dollars. We're talking $60,000, $80,000. That's just money that's gone, poof. And so, yeah, I mean, maybe not bankrupted them, but has financially harmed them. I mean, that's money that could have been, you know, put anywhere else. Well, they both have children, so—

I was going to say, like a college fund. And that's a conversation that I had with one of the other victims was, do I want to fight this, or do I want to use this money for my kids' futures? And that was a really hard conversation. Yeah.

Yeah.

What do you guys want the Betrayal audience to know about your show?

I would like the Betrayal audience to know that the story is— got the similar elements of the Betrayal show. It's got the manipulation, the fraud, the deception, all of those things. But as I've been working on this project, I think The best part has been meeting and connecting with all of the people who have lived it. I think Clayton and I have talked for probably over 30 hours on tape. I've really gotten to know Clayton. I've really gotten to know some of the other victims. And hearing their stories and seeing what they've been through has been really eye-opening. And also, you know, A lot of times you think it's just one victim and, you know, it affected Clayton's life, but it's the collateral damage of everyone that's involved and the wave of destruction that goes along with it that is really the most impactful part to me, because you can see how one woman's choices really affect so many people.

Yeah, and to piggyback off that, I would say, um, I think what this story really highlights is the power of community. And I hope it inspires those that listen to find their own communities and understand that nothing should be fought alone. You know, individuals that go through something similar, a lot of times they carry a lot of shame. And I was certainly in that same position. And I remember when it first went public, I was like, this is going to ruin me. And actually, it going public was the greatest thing that ever happened because there was an army of people that were willing to rally around me. But I didn't necessarily even need an army. It would've just, you know, having 2 or 3 people in my corner, I mean, makes all the difference. So, I think we all are fighting our own battles, and a lot of times, you know, people that are listening to these true crime series, I think a lot of people, they're able to sympathize. They've went through, they know someone who's went through something similar, or they've experienced it. This story, I really think, just highlights the power of that community, and that anyone that's going through something similar knows of someone going through something similar.

Keep in mind how powerful, like, your support can be for somebody and help them get through a dark time.

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for being here today and sharing a little bit about your story.

Where can people get your podcast? The iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, anywhere you listen to podcasts. And a 5-star rating goes a long way.

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Hi, it's Jill Wenderstein, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible.

Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns.

The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves.

So I'm like delusionally proud of my chart.

Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything. I was a monster. Listen to Burden of Guilt season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Good people, what's up, what's up? It's Questlove. So recently, I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with actress and producer Jamie Lee Curtis. From Routines to Recovery, True Lies, and a series certain Jermaine Jackson music video. Jamie's real and raw, and it's something I really admire about her.

I am so happy that I'm the head bitch in charge at 67, that I have the perspective that I have at my age to really be able to put all of this into context.

Listen to The Questlove Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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