Transcript of Survivors’ Discussion Continued | BONUS | Saskia’s Story

This is an iHeart podcast. Guaranteed Human.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of The Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster.

Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckard was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.

You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct?

I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, it's Jo Wintershtein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend Krista Williams.

It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns.

The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves.

Just so I'm like delusionally proud of my chart.

Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

Good people, what's up, what's up? It's Questlove. So recently I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with actress and producer Jamie Lee Curtis. From Routines to Recovery, True Lies, and a certain Jermaine Jackson music video, Jamie's real and raw, and it's something I really admire about her.

I am so happy that I'm the head bitch in charge at 67, that I have the perspective that I have at my age to really be able to to put all of this into context.

Listen to The Questlove Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is a bonus episode of Betrayal. For this bonus episode, We'd like to share more excerpts from the survivors' group discussion because these women, Ember, Natalie, Stephanie, and Saskia, had so much more to say than we could fit in one episode. This discussion was moderated by a professional.

Having conversations with survivors is really near and dear to not just my heart, but to RAINN's heart.

Megan Cutter is the chief of victim services at RAINN. The Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network. RAINN has been working with us throughout Season 5.

Healing is not a linear journey. It's not a straight line. So I want to talk about that concept with all of you and would love to get a sense of like, how do you define healing for you? And I think this can be a conversation of like, how this feels, how's this show up? So let's talk about healing.

I think that's the hard part. There's no, like, arrival.

That's Amber. It's been 2 decades since she found out her then-fiancé was drugging and raping her.

If you had asked me 20 years ago, I would have been like, yeah, by 20 years in, I'm gonna be all better. I'm not even gonna think about this anymore. I wish it was something where we could just flip a switch and never think about it again. My capacity has changed though. My ability to not judge myself, that was a huge thing that I had to get over, was like, why am I not better? So I went internal with a lot of it for a very long time. I still think of it almost every day, but it doesn't take my feet out from underneath me when I think about it.

Then another survivor, Natalie, jumped in.

Like you, Amber, I'm going on 12 years.

That's how long it's been since Natalie found images on her son's iPad of her husband assaulting her.

I remember there being a time years ago where I'm like, no, I'm fine. Like, I could totally handle this. I can deal with it. I'll just keep this inside and shove it in a little box and it's fine. And No, it's not. Because days would pop up and I'm like, oh, I'm really not fine.

I think, you know, we all share this common feeling that I don't know how to fix my life after it's completely blown up like this.

That's Stephanie. She shared her story in season 1 of Betrayal Weekly. After 23 years of marriage, she found intimate photos of herself on her husband's laptop.

But it was very empowering for me to share my story through the Betrayal Podcast. And the best part of what came out of that is that the podcast producers connected me with Saskia, who is my absolute soul sister.

Back when we first met Saskia, we immediately saw the parallels between her and Stephanie's stories, so we connected them via email. Email threads eventually turned into long phone calls, which gave way to a deep friendship. Stephanie even flew out to visit Saskia in Maryland last summer. They watched TV together, went on walks, and when one of them felt overcome with grief or anxiety, They didn't have to explain because they both understood. Here's Saskia.

You know, to see how strong Stephanie was through this gave me more of the, you know what, I'm gonna see that I can be a survivor, that I am a survivor, and that I can help other people with this. We can make sure that nobody else feels as alone as we did. I feel like I'm in really good company.

And now to have Natalie and Ember also to join this terrible sisterhood that no one wants to be a part of is just really, really powerful.

Like the other survivors, Saskia's effort to rebuild her life is ongoing.

One thing that was so hard for me is that this was 7 years of my life where I thought that I had a wonderful husband and a wonderful family. And I didn't know what to do with those 7 years of memories. We had to not only deal with being raped, but also having our whole lives as we knew them fall apart. I wouldn't wish that on anybody, but I think it allows us to kind of build back up and take some of our control back. But I think a necessary part is to gain more confidence, be more aware of our needs and our wants, right? I know I've learned that you do have to be a little bit selfish in life just to survive. I always thought that was a bad word, being selfish, but I think being selfless, you know, really enabled me to be taken advantage of.

I think it's a matter of not selfishness, but self-preservation. I've learned, and I see that in you also, Saskia, we have finally figured out that we need to prioritize ourselves, our feelings, and taking care of ourselves and not just everybody else.

I'm Bailey Taylor, and this is It Girl. You may know me from my It Girl series I've done on the streets of New York over the years. Well, I've got good news. I am bringing those interviews and many more to this podcast. Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work with the women shaping culture right now.

As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated, so you have to work extra hard and you have to push the narrative in a way that doesn't compromise who you are and your integrity. You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja.

Each week I have unfiltered conversations with female founders, creatives, and leaders to talk about ambition, visibility, and what it really takes to build something meaningful in the public eye. Because being an It Girl isn't about the spotlight, it's about owning it. I think the negatives need to be discussed and they need to be told to people who maybe don't do this every day, just so they know what's really going on. I feel like pulling the curtain back is important. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey girl, hi, this is Jo Wintersteen, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with Minnie Driver.

The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're going to have a terrible time with men.

Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives, and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius, like, are misunderstood. A Sun and Venus in Aquarius in her 7th house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.

He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the is-ness of it all.

If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must-listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckard found himself at the center of a paternity scandal. The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story. This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth.

You doctored this particular test twice, Miss Owens. Correct.

I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case.

I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for. Sunlight's the greatest disinfectant.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern— two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Marancini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news out of Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges.

This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade?

Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age.

What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year?

He still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction.

And how did a 2023 event called WAGgedon change the paddock forever?

That day is just seared into my memory.

I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on No Grip, a Formula 1 culture podcast that dives into the underexplored pockets of the sport. In each episode, a different guest and I will go deeper into the wacky mishaps, scandals, and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No Grip on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Right around the same time Saskia reached out to us, Giselle Pellicot's story was gaining international attention. Giselle is the woman in France whose husband drugged and raped her over the course of a decade and invited dozens of other men to do the same. Megan Cutter, the facilitator for RAINN, brought up Giselle's case with the group.

When you see stories in the news, in the media, over the last year or so, we've seen a lot of conversation about Giselle Pellicot and, and her story. What's the impact of seeing a story like Gisele's in the media or hearing on the podcast a story similar to your own?

I felt like the Gisele Pellico story has been really important in bringing awareness to the whole world that there is such a thing as marital rape, marital sexual abuse.

That's Stephanie again.

Her country gave her the privilege of having her anonymity But she still went forward to bring this abuse onto a national, international spotlight, which was just amazing.

Here's Amber.

I go on TikTok, social media, Instagram, and I can come across just in my scrolling so many accounts of people talking about sexual abuse. And it's like, okay, people are talking about this in the public square. Where that was not the case 20 years ago. But is it where it needs to be? No. Let's not just pat ourselves on the back as a culture and say, look at us, we've become so much better at this. It's like, better doesn't necessarily mean good, you know? And what more do we need to do?

Then Natalie brought up another high-profile sexual abuse case, one that saw polarizing public reaction.

When you said in the media, I remember Bill Cosby and I was listening to that and just listening to commentary from people just being so angry and wanting to stand up for those victims and trying to educate people on how wrong it is.

Bill Cosby was America's dad, but in 2014 and 2015, More than 60 women came forward accusing him of drugging and raping them. The victims were torn apart in the press and online. Many were accused of making these allegations up for fame or financial gain.

I didn't realize at that time, but I feel exactly what those other victims were feeling, and being labeled as that is just something shameful to carry. People give their opinions, and sometimes it would just be really hard because, you know, you just have to sit there and kind of take it.

We talk a lot at RAINN about the myth of the perfect victim.

We think a lot about this myth on betrayal too, how it contributes to some survivors being perceived as more sympathetic, believable. While others are written off.

The perfect victim— they weren't drinking, they weren't using drugs, they remembered every single moment of their abuse, and they remembered it in order, and they went right to the police, and they said, I need help right away. And this idea of what someone quote unquote should do when they experience sexual violence, which is not at all aligned with how trauma works in the brain, how abusers function— like, it's not real. And when someone doesn't match that idea, there can be judgment, there can be shame, there can be a lot of putting something on the survivor. Have there been moments when you all have questioned your own experience because of the expectations put on you by that perfect victim dialog?

When you look at, like, the perfect victim— I was not a partier, I wasn't out drinking regularly, I didn't have a fake ID, I never did drugs. Even with that I was deemed a non-credible witness by the first two police officers that I spoke to. And they're like, yeah, your testimony won't stand. You know, the DA won't pick this up if I don't remember things in a linear way. It's so frustrating. I wasn't somebody of ill repute. It didn't make any difference in my case.

Then Saskia spoke. She knew firsthand what it meant to be held to that perfect victim standard. She lived through it in her divorce case with Mike.

I feel like he was given every grace, every opportunity to just shit on me, my mental health, my substance use and abuse. We've been so traumatized already to have to then put your life on display. And talk about your vulnerabilities and defend them. I couldn't have expected the nightmare.

Saskia did conform to the perfect victim narrative in at least one way. She rushed to report Mike, her abuser, the moment she realized what was happening.

But I think back, and if I had my wits about me, maybe I would've chose more self-preservation, right? I had two stepdaughters and as soon as I discovered what happened, they were pulled from my lives and the lives of my kids. My kids had to see me falling to my knees. So I have guilt for some of the things that I did too. You know, I don't think that I'm better than anybody because I chose this path. We all have to give ourselves grace for our choices and what we had to do to survive.

I am sitting with what each of you have shared and, and talked about, and I think it's reminding me survivorship is not a monolith, right? And I imagine for people listening to this too, to hear that there are different ways to navigate this will hopefully make them feel like whatever way they're trying to stay safe is okay and is right and is valid. My last question is, if there's a survivor listening to this, what is it that you wish for them?

My wish and desire for you is that you would know that you are loved, that you deserve safety and kindness and compassion. Exactly as you are right now.

I want any victim survivor of this to know that she did nothing to cause this, and the shame is 100% on the perpetrator. And you're not alone.

Carrying that shame is really what kept me from a lot, and it really isn't yours to carry. It's not ours to carry.

I think I would share that it's not what happens to you, it's what you do with that and how you respond to it that shows the type of person that you are. And it's possible to have something so tragic happen to you and still have goodness and hope and not let anyone take that away from you.

For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. That's R-A-I-N-N dot org slash betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE.

Hope.

You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. That is betrayalpod@gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal Community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. 5-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning. Written and produced by Leah Jablow, with additional production by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our associate producer is Olivia Hewitt. Production management by Kristen Malkieri. Additional support by Curry Richman. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dal Vecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman.

The roundtable discussion was led with the help of RAINN, the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network. Thank you to our facilitator Megan Cutter and to Angelina Marcano for her support. Additional thanks to Jennifer Simmons Kaliba. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of The Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster.

Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckard was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.

You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct?

I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. Laura, Scottsdale Police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped Podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, it's Jill Wintersteen, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend Krista Williams.

It can change you in the best way possible.

Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns, the embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves.

Just so I'm like delusionally proud of my chart.

Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

Good people, what's up, what's up? It's Questlove. So recently I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with, uh, actress and producer Jamie Lee Curtis from Routines to Recovery, True Lies, and a certain Jermaine Jackson music video. Jamie's real and raw, and it's something I really admire about her.

I am so happy that I'm the head bitch in charge at 67, that I have the perspective that I have at my age to really be able to put all of this into context.

Listen to The Questlove Show on the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an iHeartRadio podcast. Guaranteed Human.