Transcript of Love Is No Defense | EP 8 | Saskia's Story

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Hi, it's Jill Wintersteen, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend Krista Williams.

It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns.

The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves.

So I'm, like, delusionally proud of my chart.

Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster.

Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckard was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.

You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct?

I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. 2 more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini.

My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped.

Laura, Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Good people, what's up? What's up? It's Questlove. So recently, I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with actress and producer Jamie Lee Curtis from Routine, to Recovery, True Lies, and a certain Jermaine Jackson music video. Jamie's real and raw, and it's something I really admire about her.

I am so happy that I'm the head bitch in charge at 67, that I have the perspective that I have at my age to really be able to put all of this into context.

Listen to The Questlove Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, everyone. Andrea here. I have some exciting news to share. ABC has turned Betrayal Weekly into an 8-episode anthology, which means each episode features one of your favorite Betrayal Weekly stories. You'll get to see the people involved, hear from people who have never spoken before, and actually see where the story took place. We are so proud and excited to share it with you all. It's called Betrayal: Secrets and Lies, and it premieres this Sunday, March 29th, at 10 PM Eastern Standard Time, 9 PM Central. Please check it out. Earlier this season, we went through Saskia's divorce trial. We talked about all the hurdles that Saskia had to overcome, all the insults she had to endure. Just to end her marriage. But I want to go back to that trial for a second because there's one more moment you need to hear. It's the devil in the details.

What's on the screen here is defendant's exhibit 3.

This is audio from the middle of the divorce trial during Mike's cross-examination. Saskia's attorney began by quoting Mike's initial divorce filing.

Paragraph 8 says all of these acts were consensual, and in paragraph 10 that all of these allegations are false and defamatory, pose a serious threat to your good reputation. Do you recall making those statements? Yes. The statements about this being a betrayal and that all acts were consensual, those, those were false statements, correct? Those are not false statements. Well, we know that not all the acts were consensual, right? I maintain they were consensual. Absolutely.

Remember, by this point, Mike had already pled guilty to rape in criminal court. But here he was in the divorce trial stating that all of his sexual encounters with Saskia were consensual. Saskia's attorney couldn't understand it. He pulled up the transcript from Mike's guilty plea.

And in fact, you were asked in this guilty plea by Judge Cummings if you are pleading guilty because you are in fact guilty.

Do you remember being asked that question? Uh, yes. And what was your response to that question? I pled— I did. I pled guilty. Because you were guilty, right? That's— yes, yes. So I'm struggling with your previous testimony that all acts would be consensual but you would be found guilty of rape. How is that? Well, I think, first of all, I think you would kind of bifurcate some of it, or have separate parallel discussions with some of these different topics. There's one thing about The consensual use of pornography, the consensual acts of taking photographs and videos.

Mr. Levin, good. The judge interrupted him.

So I would say I'm going to cut you off.

Okay.

So you maintain that all acts, all acts between you and Ms.

Inwood were consensual? Okay. Your plea agreement was that you were pleading guilty because you are in fact guilty of rape.

They can't both be true, so the question is, which one is true?

I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal Season 5, Episode 8, Love Is No Defense. The judge allowed Mike a 15-minute break to talk with his attorney.

When the court reconvened, Saskia's attorney asked him again, how can it be true that you pled guilty to rape of the defendant but that all of the acts between you and the defendant were consented to? So I think that's a— I think this is an important point. So to try to explain better, um, so based on discussions with my attorneys and my understanding, they're explaining to me the statute of rape and the definition of rape and specifically around the use of force.

You'll remember that at the time, Maryland had a law on the books. It was legal to rape your wife if she was unconscious unless force was used.

My attorney explained to me there's no specific amount of force that is required. That force becomes a very subjective thing.

State prosecutors could only charge Mike with rape in the moments where they could argue he used force. But the examples of force that they identified weren't slam dunks.

The state specifically says the force in these videos, as Your Honor will see, is force such as moving a leg while unconscious.

By the time of his divorce trial, Mike had clearly learned a lot about the marital exemption to rape. And he was using it to distance himself from his own guilty plea. Mike told the divorce judge that the whole criminal case against him was based on a technicality. Under the law, the only thing he did wrong was move his wife's leg.

So I absolutely pled guilty to that act of moving her leg while she was unconscious, semi-conscious. I pled guilty to something that I did do. And that, I recognize, is the plea of second-degree rape. And I did that, and I admit to that. I think from out of the criminal setting, right, in kind of a common, if you will, place environment, I don't believe in my heart that I did that, that I raped her.

Mike didn't believe in his heart that he raped Saskia. We're going to come back to him and let you in on what he's up to today in the next episode. But before we get to that, we need to talk about why Mike argued this, that raping his sleeping wife wasn't rape. And the reality is The law said it wasn't. The state was able to prosecute Mike, but they knew it was on a technicality. That's why prosecutors only charged him with 3 counts of rape and 1 count of attempted rape, despite there being so many videos. And it's a big part of why they agreed to give Mike an 18-month plea deal. The law said what it said. It wasn't raping your wife if she was unconscious. So Mike got off easy.

It's 100% a case that sticks with me because we weren't able to really accomplish full justice.

That's Debbie Feinstein. She's chief of the Special Victims Division at the Montgomery County State's Attorney's Office in Maryland. She supervised the prosecutors on Mike's case. Back in 2018, when they were just beginning to build the case, Debbie knew.

There were many, many, many more counts of rape that we could have charged him with.

She watched those videos. She saw what Mike did to Saskia.

She could not consent. She could not be amenable to what was happening, given the fact that she was physically helpless and mentally incapacitated. It's just those, those two things cannot be true at the same time.

And yet, in the eyes of the law, both things were true. Saskia was consenting even though she was completely knocked out. According to the law in Maryland, she consented the day she signed her marriage certificate. The marital exemption to rape could be seen as a legal loophole. But that's not quite accurate, because laws like this have been around for hundreds of years. They were built into the legal institution of marriage.

It comes from the common law of England in the 1600s, when women were chattel. They were possessions. So once you married, the husband could do whatever he wanted to the wife because she was like a table. Your horse, your teapot, that's chattel, that's property.

That's Lori Ruth.

I am the public policy director at the Maryland Network Against Domestic Violence.

It's a coalition that represents all the domestic violence service providers in the state. Lori has dedicated her career to helping survivors of intimate partner violence. For decades, she provided direct legal support And today, she lobbies for bills in the state legislature. Laurie first heard about Maryland's marital exemption around 2008. At the time, she was the legal director at a women's rights nonprofit. A call came through to her office. The woman on the other line was in the car.

She was driving on the Baltimore Beltway, and she said, my husband is drugging me and having sex with me and filming it.

This woman, like Saskia, was incapacitated when her husband assaulted her.

And I stood up from my desk. I said, you have to pull over. Like, you can't be driving down the street telling me that story. And I said, that is not allowed. That is illegal. It's a crime. He can't do that.

But then Lori looked into it.

Come to find out they're married. Come to find out, here we are in 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023. He probably was allowed to do that.

According to the law, she hadn't been raped at all. Over the years, Lori never stopped thinking about that woman.

You hear stories like that and you think, Somebody needs to be focused on this for the betterment of our society and the citizens and the women and daughters and girls in the state of Maryland.

But here's the thing. This law wasn't just affecting people in Maryland. In 2018, when Mike committed these crimes, marital exemption laws existed all over the country. In red states like Ohio, Michigan, Nevada, Mississippi, Oklahoma. And also in blue states like California, Rhode Island, and Minnesota. And all across the country, there have been people working to end these legal exemptions. People like Stefan Turkheimer.

We want the law to respect individuals. We want the law to respect survivors' experience. We want the law to create the rules for how we want society to behave. And that's not this.

Stefan leads the public policy team at RAINN, the Rape, Abuse, and Incest National Network. It's the nation's largest anti-sexual violence organization. Stefan's job is to look at laws around the country and see which laws need to be changed to protect survivors.

I'm a lawyer, right? But sometimes when you read a law, you're like, this can't be correct. Let me, let me go check. Let me see if this is actually being used.

When he learned about marital exemption laws, that was his first reaction. Maybe these laws were relics of an older time, never actually enforced.

But it turned out that that was not what was happening. Straight up, in Ohio, people that were being sexually assaulted by their husbands through drugs or other means were calling the police, and the police were saying that's not a crime. That's what was happening.

Stevens met women like Saskia all across the country, women who could never get full justice for the crimes committed against them.

The thing about a law like this, the black letter rule, is that it's not just like what cases can't go forward. It's that every single survivor can see this and be like, the law doesn't recognize my experience. They say that I'm to blame, that I'm not worthy of protection.

The more cases like Saskia's he heard about, the more angry he became.

The key is to take that outrage that you have and bring it to people that can change the law and let them be outraged with you. These are people whose minds can be changed. These are people that want to change laws. That's why they got the job.

And yet, convincing these legislators is no simple task.

Sometimes it takes a lot of people and a lot of effort to do something that should be easy.

In Saskia's case, the prosecutors told us they felt like their hands were tied. Debbie Feinstein wanted to file more charges against Mike, but because of the marital exemption to rape, she couldn't.

This case spoke volumes because it was exactly why this law didn't make sense. In this case, he got a substantially reduced sentence of incarceration, really because the meat and potatoes, the, the heart of the case, was taken out from under us because of the spousal defense to rape.

For Debbie, having to charge Mike on a technicality was a sign of a larger problem. Even though Mike took the plea, she couldn't let this case go.

The ones where we can't get to the full right outcome, they live within us, but they also drive advocacy, which is what happened in this case.

Hi, this is Jo Wintersteen, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with Minnie Driver.

The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're gonna have a terrible time with men.

Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives, and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius, like, are misunderstood. A Sun and Venus in Aquarius in her 7th house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.

He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, on different houses, in different places. But just an embracing of the isness of it all.

If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chart-side view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must-listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

I'm Bailey Taylor, And this is It Girl. You may know me from my It Girl series I've done on the streets of New York over the years. Well, I've got good news. I am bringing those interviews and many more to this podcast. Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work with the women shaping culture right now.

As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated, so you have to work extra hard and you have to push the narrative in a way that doesn't compromise who you are and your integrity. You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja.

Each week I have unfiltered conversations with female founders, creatives, and leaders to talk about ambition, visibility, and what it really takes to build something meaningful in the public eye. Because being an it girl isn't about the spotlight, it's about owning it. I think the negatives need to be discussed, and they need to be told to people who maybe don't do this every day, just so they know what's really going on. I feel like pulling the curtain back is important. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It Girl.

In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckard found himself at the center of a paternity scandal.

The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story.

This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth.

You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct?

I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case.

I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for.

Sunlight's the greatest disinfectant.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Marancini.

My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped.

Laura, Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news at Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges.

This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of The Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime.

He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground.

He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years.

I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity.

The best lie is partial truth.

For 22 years, only 2 people knew the truth until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster.

Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In the state of Maryland, people were working for years to overturn the marital rape exemption. But these kinds of laws, laws that have existed for hundreds of years, are difficult to overcome. To rally people to make a change, it often takes a case of massive injustice. Saskia's case was exactly that. It was a case with overwhelming evidence, dozens of videos, which Mike streamed to thousands of people. But he was only sentenced to 18 months. It's the kind of story that could get lawmakers' attention. Here's Prosecutor Debbie Feinstein again.

It is singularly the most impactful, effective, way to approach advocacy in the legislature is to have a case where an individual, a human being, was impacted. And this case spoke volumes.

So in 2020, just after Mike went to jail, Debbie went to Annapolis. She worked with state lawmakers, legal advocates like Lori, and representatives from the Maryland Coalition Against Sexual Assault to present a bill in the Maryland legislature. A bill that could overturn the marital exemption once and for all. We got a recording of that legislative session. A representative from Saskia's county introduced the bill.

I'm Delegate Charlotte Crutchfield from Montgomery County, and I am honored to be able to testify today on House Bill 590, also known as Love is No Defense to Sexual Crimes.

Debbie testified at length, and even though Saskia wasn't there in person, her case was the highlighted case that we brought to Annapolis. Here's Debbie testifying before lawmakers.

In Montgomery County, we had a case within the last couple of years, and in that case, a spouse raped his wife repeatedly, actually on camera, while she was mentally incapacitated. And in that case, marriage was a complete defense to his rape of his wife. It's incredibly disturbing that we could not prosecute the individual for all of those counts of rape that he perpetrated on his wife. He ultimately ended up pleading guilty with a much reduced sentence that really barely scratched the surface of the horrific offenses. But I will tell you, because I watched those videos, the horrible nature of them that we were unable to prosecute.

But even with the example of Saskia's story, the bill got a lot of pushback. Debbie and her colleagues were trying to eliminate marriage as a defense to all sex crimes— first, second, third, and fourth degree.

So on the scheme of things, you know, we have rape and then we have fourth-degree sex offense, which is an unconsented-to touching, which could be a graze on the breast, a graze on the buttocks, or the genital area.

Some legislators were concerned about what the bill would mean for those lower-tier offenses.

What you're saying is under this bill, the husband would have to get consent, that I couldn't roll over at night and just put my hand on a bikini area. I would have to say, excuse 'Excuse me, he's a little bit cold. He's just trying to spice it up a little bit.' He rolls over. Now she can say, 'I'm gonna prosecute you for a fourth-degree sex offense.' That was so disturbing to hear that come out of legislators' mouths.

Laurie Ruth, the public policy director you heard earlier, felt the same.

You stare at them and you think, what kind of marriage do you have that you actually think that's going to happen?

But lawmakers, like all of us, buy into myths about rape accusers. Some think that women are likely to bring false allegations and that they'll use those allegations to their advantage.

The most common response we see is, how can we be sure that she's telling the truth? How can we know that she's not lying? Often followed by, to get a leg up in a custody suit. That is a real barrier to getting Bills passed.

Representatives worried that this change would overwhelm the courts.

The Office of the Public Defender says we're going to be swarmed with defendants if this law passes.

Another advocate, Dorothy Lennig, spoke directly to those concerns.

I actually find it kind of shocking that the public defender is going to argue that they would be swamped with cases. I find it shocking, kind of sad, if they're saying that at this point the only reason we're not protecting women who are accusing their husbands of sexually assaulting them is because of this law.

But ultimately, these concerns were enough to kill the bill. To me, the fact that a bill like this could fail in 2020 Doesn't make sense. The government wants people to get married. And yet with this law, signing a marriage certificate means limiting your rights. As Debbie said to us, we're basically penalizing someone for being married. It defies logic. I asked Laurie Ruth about this.

I don't know that it has to do with logic. There is a deep, deeply seated misogyny at play. Logic? I don't think so.

It's also not a partisan issue.

I think the rest of the country views us as being quote unquote very liberal. But I think if you spend any time in Annapolis, you learn that it's not as simple as that. We have actually had legislators say this, like, you women get one bill this year. Let's say we've got 5 that are about child support, court, domestic violence, something else, they'll say, "You get one." Stefan from RAINN has seen these attitudes in other states too.

When you're presenting to an individual legislator on a bill, there are a few signs you can see about whether or not they're listening to and buying into what you're arguing. One of the main ones is whether or not they reference their grand daughter or their grandson. If they talk about their granddaughter, they're thinking about the survivor. If they reference their grandson, they're thinking about the offender. You hear that these people made a mistake or whatever else, something shouldn't ruin their life, all this kind of other stuff, all things that are not backed up in stats or stories, but you still have to deal with them. Because these are people that can stop your bill.

And they do stop bills all the time, often before the bills can even get a full debate. The bills that do make it to the floor are put through the wringer. This is especially true when it's only people like Stefan, Laurie, or Debbie testifying, when there are no survivors speaking on the bill's behalf. Here's Laurie again.

Sometimes the pushback to us is, well, I know you professionals are talking, but Where are the people that this really happens to? Why didn't you bring anybody with you? Isn't there somebody who could speak about this? And you want to say, do you not understand? It's not that easy to stand up and talk about the most awful things that have happened in your life to a big room full of people.

Asking survivors to testify is no small thing. When the bill in Maryland was first introduced, Saskia was in the middle of her divorce proceedings with Mike.

I was a shell of a person at that point. I couldn't have gone through the steps of describing what had happened.

No other survivors like Saskia came forward either. And yet all of the experts we talked to for this episode agreed, so much of the time it's survivor testimony that gets these bills over the line. Here's Stefan from RAINN again.

People don't really get motivated by stats, not really. They really get motivated by people and stories and how they make them feel. The story can make the person hearing it feel that they're a part of it. And when that happens, and then you get to the end of the story, the person receiving that story is left with something they can do.

In Maryland, when the bill failed, advocates were disappointed, but they weren't ready to give up just yet. And survivors wouldn't stay quiet for long.

This law treats spouses as objects, not people. This is your law, and this is rape.

Hi, this is Jill Winterstein, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And I just sat down with Minnie Driver.

The Irish traveler said when I was 16, you're gonna have a terrible time with men.

Actor, storyteller, and unapologetic Aquarian visionary. Aquarius is all about freedom-loving and different perspectives, and I find a lot of people with strong placements in Aquarius, like, are misunderstood. A Sun and Venus in Aquarius in her 7th house spark her unconventional approach to partnership.

He really has taught me to embrace people sleeping in different rooms, in different houses, in different places, but just an embracing of the is-ness of it all.

If you're navigating your own transformation or just want a chartside view into how a leading artist integrates astrology, creativity, and real life, this episode is a must-listen. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

I'm Bailey Taylor and this is It Girl. You may know me from my It Girl series I've done on the streets of New York over the years. Well, I've got good news. I am bringing those interviews and many more to this podcast. Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work with the women shaping culture right now.

As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated, so you have to work extra hard and you have to push the narrative in a way that doesn't compromise who you are and your integrity. You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja.

Each week I have unfiltered conversations with female founders, creatives, and leaders to talk about ambition, visibility, and what it really takes to build something meaningful in the public eye. Because being a Nick Girl isn't about the spotlight, it's about owning it. I think the negatives need to be discussed and they need to be told to people who maybe don't do this every day, just so they know what's really going on. I feel like pulling the curtain back is important. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

It Girl.

In 2023, former Bachelor star Clayton Eckard found himself at the center of a paternity scandal.

The family court hearings that followed revealed glaring inconsistencies in her story.

This began a years-long court battle to prove the truth.

You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens, correct?

I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to crack the case.

I wanted people to be able to see what their tax dollars were being used for.

Sunlight's the greatest disinfectant.

They would uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Marancini.

My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped.

Laura, Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Ladies and gentlemen, breaking news out of Maricopa County as Laura Owens has been indicted on fraud charges.

This isn't over until justice is served in Arizona.

Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime.

He pulls the gun, tells me to lie down on the ground.

He identified Jermaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Jermaine was sentenced to 99 years.

I'm like, Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity.

The best lie is partial truth.

For 22 years, only 2 people knew the truth until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster.

Listen to Burden of Guilt's Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 2020, in Maryland, the bill to end the marital exemption failed, but Debbie Feinstein, the prosecutor in Montgomery County, couldn't forget about this law or about Saskia's case.

It lit a huge fire under me, under my team, and we wanted to do whatever we could to change the law.

So in 2021, she and other advocates brought the bill again. But again, it failed. The same legislators spoke up, determined to keep it from passing.

Isn't the whole purpose of marital exceptions that we don't end up in court talking about Who said what in the marital bedroom?

When the bill was brought for a third year, the same objections resurfaced. It seemed like the marital exemption might be the law of the land forever. But then came 2023. A lot was different about that year. New advocates brought new stories of why the law needed to be repealed.

Because of the spousal defense, I was unable to prosecute this man for raping an unconscious woman.

More men testified on behalf of the bill.

We must break the cycle of violence and close this vicious loop.

But there was one person's testimony that stood out among the rest. It was a survivor's story. We're making the choice to omit her name for her privacy.

My name is—

I'm a sexual assault survivor and a victim of this law. Less than a year ago, I was raped by my husband, and under the existing law, what he did was legal rape. I could not respond verbally or physically, completely incapacitated. And it constituted consent because I was married. I had photographic and video evidence of my assault, and instead of my proof being used to prosecute my rapist, it proved his innocence because this chamber made my rape legal. This law treats spouses as as objects, not people. We are forced to satisfy sexual desires when we are deprived of strength and power. This is your law, and this is rape. You have an opportunity to correct this remnant of our past, and I'm charging each of you to do that. You've been entrusted with the power to protect your fellow citizens, and please, I implore you, make the right decision. Provide a path of healing and justice for all future victims like me. Thank you.

This was the first time that a survivor of marital rape came before the legislature in support of this bill. Laurie Ruth, the public policy advocate in Maryland, remembers her testimony well.

Those legislators had to look her in the eye and hear an absolutely horrific story.

Immediately, it was clear the survivor's words broke through. I just want to say thank you.

That's the most impactful testimony I've ever heard on this bill. I've heard this a lot, too many times.

And so I just want to say thank you for your willingness to step forward. Hearing this exchange of a legislator thanking this survivor reminds me of something Stefan said earlier.

The story can make the person hearing it feel that they're a part of it. And when that happens, and then you get to the end of the story, the person receiving that story is left with something they can do.

After 4 years, in May of 2023, legislators voted to end Maryland's marital exemption. The bill passed the House and the Senate without a single no vote. Today, the law that allowed Mike Levingood to get off easy no longer exists in Maryland. In the last 5 years, Similar reforms have also passed in other states, including Ohio, Minnesota, California, Mississippi, and Rhode Island. But Stefan says the fight can't stop here.

Are the laws progressing? Yes, the laws are progressing. Is the United States in a better state than it was 5 years ago? Yeah, it is. Is it a better state than 20 years ago? Yeah. Is it in better shape than a lot of other countries? It absolutely is. Is it where it needs to be? No.

5 states continue to treat marital rape as a lesser crime: Nevada, South Carolina, Virginia, Michigan, and Iowa. And still, in about half of the states in the US, rape continues to be defined in reference to physical force. Most of us don't know about these laws or even think about them. Until they affect us or someone we love. When Saskia first heard that the bill in Maryland had passed and that the marital exemption in her state had been overturned, I was like, finally.

It makes me feel relieved that I went through all of that not in vain, that there's something good that came out of it.

But look how much damage has already been done.

Changing the law doesn't change what Saskia lived through, and it's unlikely to change what Mike thinks. Saskia not only endured abuse, she endured this law, a law that told Mike that what he did wasn't rape. In the end, he may always believe he's innocent.

I don't believe in my heart that I did that, that I raped her.

On the next episode of Betrayal, we dive into where Mike is today. I couldn't imagine what it would be like for Saskia to first learn that her perpetrator is selling the experience that he gained from what he did to her.

I, I just can't imagine.

If you want to learn more about the laws in your state, RAINN has a database for that. Go to rainn.org/betrayal. That's R-A-I-N-N dot org slash betrayal. Click Take Action and select Laws in Your State from the dropdown menu. For resources on sexual violence, visit rainn.org/betrayal. That's R-A-I-N-N dot org slash betrayal. You can also get free, confidential, 24/7 support through RAINN's National Sexual Assault Hotline. Just text HOPE to 64673 or call 1-800-656-HOPE. You are not alone. If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team or want to tell us your story, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. That is betrayalpod@gmail.com. Or follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod. To access additional content and to connect with the Betrayal Community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com. We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts. Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. 5-star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Faison. Hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning.

Written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique Laborde. Also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablow. Production management by Kristen Melchiori. Additional support by Curry Richman. Our iHeart team is Allie Perry and Jessica Kreincheck. Audio editing by Tanner Robbins, with additional editing and mixing by Matt Dal Vecchio. Special thanks to Saskia, her friends, and family. And special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie Lieberman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines. Music library provided by MIB Music. And for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, it's Jill Wintersteen, host of the Spirit Daughter Podcast, where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend Krista Williams.

It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns.

The embodiment of Pisces intuition intuition with Capricorn power moves.

Just so I'm like delusionally proud of my chart.

Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.

I'm Nancy Glass, host of the Burden of Guilt Season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpwright became the victim of a random crime. The perpetrator was sentenced to 99 years until a confession changed everything.

I was a monster.

Listen to Burden of Guilt Season 2 on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

In 2023, Bachelor star Clayton Eckard was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax.

You doctored this particular test twice, Ms. Owens. Correct.

I doctored the test once.

It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing.

Greg Gillespie and Michael Mancini.

My mind was blown.

I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped.

Laura, Scottsdale Police.

As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences. Listen to Love Trapped podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Good people, what's up? What's up? It's Questlove. So recently, I had the incredible opportunity to have a real conversation with actress and producer Jamie Lee Curtis. From Routines to Recovery, True Lies, and a certain Jermaine Jackson music video, Jamie's real and raw, and it's something I really admire about her.

I am so happy that I'm the head bitch in charge at Sony. 67, that I have the perspective that I have at my age to really be able to put all of this into context.

Listen to The Questlove Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an iHeartRadio podcast. Guaranteed human.