Transcript of Tommy Lee

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman.

Hi.

Hi.

What are you drinking?

I'm drinking— I'm drinking a coffee.

Okay.

But I don't want any more of it.

But I— it's like a blankie at this point.

Safety blanket.

That makes sense.

You know who needs a safety blanket?

Tommy Lee. Tommy Lee. Tommy Lee is a musician. He is the co-founder and drummer of Mötley Crüe. He's— I mean, I think he's the most famous man in the '90s.

I know.

His albums include Never a Dull Moment, Andro, Tommyland: The Ride, Shout at the Devil, Dr. Feelgood. His new album is out now, Tommyland Rides Again. I mean, this guy did it all, Monica.

He really— he has lived a life.

Yeah. Please enjoy Tommy Lee.

Dax, you were at the fight that we were at.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, Saturday.

We were gonna say hi, but we didn't want to be like that.

But I saw you— well, this has happened to me twice in like 24 hours, which is I saw you there and I was like, I don't want to say hi because I'm interviewing him in a minute. And then I saw a dude at a party on Sunday who we're interviewing on Wednesday. I was like, oh, this is so awkward. Normally I would sit and talk to this dude, but I don't want to like find out a bunch of interesting shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He wants to talk about today because there's like a viral clip going around of him from that fight of people. He rubbed his nose when the camera was on him.

Oh, exciting. You think you're on Boogie Shoogie?

Sober my ass.

He's sober now and everyone's like, he's fucking geeked out.

Oh my God.

The internet's insane.

They cut to David Spade and he also does a little—

he just—

he's fucking scratching his nose.

But it looks like like the two of you were just in the bathroom banging the devil's dandruff.

Just doing gaggers. Dude.

Good thing they didn't cut to you also.

It's a very common thing to do. I'm surprised they didn't show Dax, like, rub his nose and just look.

All the sober people.

I'm just tapping my veins.

All the sober dudes.

I'm roping off. Yeah, exactly. The little piece of glass that the flowers came in at the gas station to get my pipe ready. At the fight. Wow. Do you ever get that dark? Do you ever get the little flowers with the little glass pipe?

What's the little—

No, there's all these hacks when you smoke crack and all the downtown gas stations had all these inexplicable items for sale. Like, who's buying fucking these little roses? Yeah, but it's really just to get this little glass rod that you could use as a pipe.

Wow.

And then they sold little bits of like SOS pad or Brillo pad that you also want to pack in there. Like, all this random shit would be at the counter at mobile gas stations. Yes.

Downtown Detroit.

Oh my God. Wow.

I get so excited that I'm like, oh my God, dude, fuck, I've been sober for a year.

Yeah, yeah.

And I celebrate.

Yes.

That's the fucking problem. I can never go past a year because I'm so pumped that I actually pulled that off.

The impossible.

Yeah.

I do a party and I drink.

How long does the celebration last? Looks like you're debating whether or not to be honest.

Maybe 6 months.

Okay, sure. A little 6-month celebration.

And then?

Then you're demoralized and you hate everything.

Yeah. Yeah. You want to kill yourself.

Yeah.

Okay, I'm done.

And you're like, well, we're here again. Yeah, here we are again. Have you done ever longer than a year?

Yes, I think 3 years was the longest I've done.

Oh really?

Yeah. I don't know why I didn't celebrate between those years. I must have been on some other plane.

Yeah. What do you think was going on? You were probably very interested in something or distracted by something.

You know, I was probably really busy. If you're always on tour, you're just going and going and going. All of a sudden Couple years goes by like that. 2 and a half years in one tour. All of a sudden you're like, dude, I did it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you go, I've earned some reward for this, right? Come on, I deserve rewards.

I've been good boy.

I know this is the pathetic thing about all of us in recovery is, yeah, you behave like all human beings behave and you think you deserve a ticker tape parade. Yeah, I haven't cheated on my girlfriend in 2 years. Yeah, like everyone, man. Yeah, this doesn't deserve a fucking parade.

That is awesome.

And when you go out on those after the year, do we do everything? Are there some stuff you just can't ever do again? Like, for me, I got burned by the opiates thing, and I just— for me, it's so seared into getting off of them is so horrendous. It's just beyond. Yeah, that to me, it's like, oh, I don't think in any scenario, even fucked up, would I go back down that one.

Yeah.

Are there ones you won't fuck with, or when it's on, it's on?

Yeah, that's one of them. I don't really fuck with that. I haven't fucked with that in a long time with heroin. That's one of those that you go, oh, I could die.

And you're watching people around you are dying because it feels so fucking good.

You're like, this is way too good. I know myself well enough. We shouldn't fuck with this. Yeah, that kind of vibe. I fucked with it for a while, and there was a point where I was with my bass player and we were just doing a shitload of heroin, and we ran out. And it's like probably 3, 4 in the morning. We're like, fuck, dude, what are we going to do? The moment we unscrewed the cap on a fifth of Jack and filled up the cap with Jack and then pulled a couple syringes and we're shooting Jack Daniels, I was like, whoa. It was at that moment where I went, okay, what is happening? We can just drink this, but we're shooting it, right? This is fucking wrong and somebody's going to die.

Insanity. Crazy's taken hold. No one's thinking clearly.

Eject.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That was when I realized.

Do you even remember the sensation of shooting booze? Did it do anything differently?

Yeah, you could taste it. Oh wow, like you taste heroin.

Yeah, you taste heroin.

Yeah, there's definitely a taste.

Yeah, yeah. Well, have you ever had a B12 shot for health?

Yeah, I have.

And you taste it kind of immediately.

That's true. Yeah, I would not expect that though.

What does it taste like?

Not to to trigger anyone, but I am curious.

Yeah, how would you describe the taste? Okey.

Okay, but medicine okey.

Interesting.

Medicinal.

So strange.

Yeah, I'm like referring to like wine or something.

Yeah, exactly. A hint of chocolate.

Yeah, notes of—

let's start at the beginning. You were born in Greece, in Athens.

Yeah.

Yeah. And your dad was in the U.S. Army. He was a sergeant.

Yep.

What was he doing there? 1959 to '62 or something?

Yeah, he was stationed there as a staff sergeant of the motor pool. He ran where they fix all the tanks, trucks, anything with motors in it.

So he was mechanical?

Yeah, full-on mechanic.

I know he built a monkey enclosure in your backyard at some point, so I know he has some carpentry skills too.

Wow.

We had a monkey growing up. It was fun, man.

But mom was Miss Greek Beauty Pageant.

Yeah.

Contestant, right?

Crazy, huh?

So is she a mega babe?

Super hot. Tell my father once in a while, I go, "Dad, I get it. I get it. I would have married her too." Aha, she's gorgeous. Yeah, beautiful, stunning woman.

Was she keen to move to California, or was that a bummer for her? She falls in love with this dude in Athens, and then he wants to go back to California.

Yeah, I don't know if she had a choice. I would just assume she'd be excited to come to America. I don't know. The crazy thing was neither one of them understood each other. They communicated through drawings. Oh, really? You know, my dad, he had a translation dictionary, and that's how they would communicate, was through drawing pictures and a chicken and an egg. And we need to go and get this.

She must be so hot if he was willing to do this, right? Can you imagine someone being hot enough to like, I'm going to communicate with you? It is cute.

But I mean, you got to—

because you don't know what her personality is like because you're not talking to her, right? So you're just like, this girl's so stunning. I'm willing to communicate via pictures.

You just don't care about her personality.

Yeah, yeah.

Cartoons. So I presume she learned English. Did he ever learn any Greek?

He learned enough to get better at communicating, appease his father-in-law occasionally.

Yeah, yeah, right.

It's funny because, dude, I went to this dream analyst dude like years ago. We were talking and I was telling him about my dreams. The conversation shifted to me talking about how my mom and my father would communicate, right, through pictures and stuff. And he goes, that explains all your artwork on your body. He goes, at that age, that's what you saw as communication.

Interesting.

And he goes, so you now are communicating on the outside of your skin. And I was like, I never thought about that, but isn't that cool?

Yeah, that makes sense. What do you have for siblings? Because you went to her ballet recital.

Yeah, dude.

And what did you see there?

I joined ballet.

Smart move, right?

I went to some of her practices and stuff, and I was like, man, this is cool. Yeah, yeah. Way cooler than like playing baseball or football and getting snapped with towels in the locker room. I was like, I'd rather be doing this. Yeah.

Hanging with all the girls.

Yeah. This shit's gay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I'm not down. Yeah.

But that's what they accused you of, right? Once you had a recital coming.

Front page of the daily paper. And then that day I went to school and just got pounded like, dude, what is up? I literally quit the next day.

Oh yeah.

What age do you think that was?

16.

Oh, that late?

Yeah, that is late.

Oh wow. High school.

What was the vibe in Covina in the '70s? Was it just like Americana? There were jocks and burnouts. And where were you shuffling into this mix?

I'd only go to my favorite two classes in school. I was kind of a loner. I didn't really hang with many people. I'd go to my favorite two classes, which was music and shop, wood shop and shit, like make silkscreen t-shirts and shit. Yeah, like creator shit. I would bail home and I would go play my drums in the garage, so I didn't really hang very much at school.

Yeah, you're like an introvert.

Yeah, yeah, totally.

I think that might shock people because you've had such an out loud life.

Yeah, yeah. I'm really nervous just hanging out with you guys.

Oh God, seriously?

I'm being brutal.

I like I'm honoring you with a wife beater today.

I love it. Yeah, I know. And you're all fucking buffed out, dude. Well, that's just— are you working out?

I work out pretty compulsively. Yeah, it looks like that.

Fuck.

Have you gotten into the, like, suffering as a way to abate addiction? Like, I think if I suffer a few times during the day, like I sauna, which is miserable, and I cold plunge, and then I work out, which is miserable. If I do these three miserable things, I feel like I've earned a good mood the rest of the day. Ah, have you ever tried Have you tried that, like going the opposite direction?

I have tried that, but I think my go-to now— this is like 7 years ago— I've gotten into the world of bonsai.

Oh, yes, I know this about you.

To me, that's like my—

That's your good addiction.

That's my drug of choice these days. It's the reverse of the torture. I don't know, this is just, I think, a kinder way of—

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, you're caring for something.

Yeah.

Yes.

And so you have like an implicit purpose, and it's slow and methodical.

Hours can go by and you don't even give a fuck about anything. Like, it is the most beautiful release.

What do you do? You trim it?

You're doing everything from fertilizing to wiring branches where you want them to grow.

Oh, wow. That's so cool.

I learned this as you talk about it. It takes like years and years to get them to look the way they do when you see them.

Years, bro. It would be silly if I didn't mention there's a lot of It's like watching paint dry sometimes, you know? You're like, I've been working on this tree for fucking 4 years. Yeah, this is it, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're trying to like feed them so they grow faster. And so it's good for the impatience.

Yes.

And the restlessness, it calms you down.

Get on the tree speed.

A year ago, at that time, you had 43 bonsai trees under your care.

Yes.

How many do you have now? Is it worse?

I'm down to 38 now.

Because you've killed 5 of them? Yes, sir.

Oh no.

Can you push them too hard as far as trying to keep them miniature?

You can do that.

It's like having like a child athlete.

No, you're right. If you do too much work to them at once, let's say it's time to repot something because it's getting root bound. If you do a bunch of hard cuts and a lot of trimming and working and then repot it, it's too much sometimes on the tree. You'll stress it out. Uh-huh. Because it's building new roots and new branches.

Yeah, yeah.

So you can stress a tree out and kill it. And I've done that.

And how do you feel? Do you take that hard?

Yeah, dude, it's— that's a bummer.

You—

something, you know, years with— yeah, and you're like, I just killed this fucker. What are you doing?

And will you be sad for a while over it?

Oh yeah, I still keep like the branches, the deadwood, the remnants. Yeah, I keep—

oh my God, that's sweet.

Really? It's like the skeleton or whatever.

Yeah, it's a little like Mike Tyson and his pigeons.

Totally.

Yeah, it's like, it's like impossibly sweet activities. Pigeons just cares for them. He loves pigeons. He's got like the sweetest heart. He has hundreds of pigeons. And as a kid, he was a loner, right? And he just had these pigeons. So, wow. And someone like stole his pigeons. That was his first fight. Well, he fought back. He used to get bullied, and then he was like, oh shit, I'm powerful.

Oh, it's funny.

With my pigeons. Yeah, but smart version.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah, we don't want to accuse.

No, I didn't.

I just kind of would never accuse him of anything. Yeah, so you were kind of an introvert. You weren't terribly lucky with gals, were you, in high school?

I did okay.

Deborah, was that her name? Brenda. Brenda. Brenda.

Brenda. Yeah.

Oh, fuck. Yeah, easy mistake.

He does his research.

Whoa, dude.

He does his research.

How old were you when you and Brenda made love?

Oh, um, I was 13.

13. Okay, okay, okay. You never know what ages are coming from because he also talked about the time he did acid, and you're like waiting for him to say the age, and you're predicting it's going to be this, but it was like 13, I think, as well, right? Yes.

Yeah, yeah, 13 was a big year for him.

It was big. It was really big.

8th grade or 9th grade?

That would be like junior high school. I think 7th.

Yeah, I too had sex at 13.

You did?

I did.

She was 15.

She was a 9th grader. She had already done sex a couple times, and so I was like, okay, she already knows what she's doing.

Apparently that's really young.

Yes, it is.

Now that I have a 13-year-old, I recognize. Oh my God. Yeah, it's uncomfortable for people. When we were kids, it made you cool. Like, my friends thought I was a king because of that.

Yeah, yeah.

And I hate to admit I love that my buddies thought I was so cool because of that. And now as I'm older, like, no one likes that. Everyone's uncomfortable.

Everyone's like, get rid of my child.

Yeah, yeah.

My little sister came walking in.

Oh boy.

And I'm fucking her best friend, which is our neighbor.

Brenda.

Yeah.

And my sister's just like, top of her lungs, just fucking— yeah. And just—

she probably thought you were killing her.

Blew the— yeah, it was such a bad scene. And I knew she was going to tell my parents and shit, right? It was all bad.

Tommy, you can't have sex with the neighbor children.

Yeah, both parents had the talk. Oh no, restriction from each other. Oh, they should not really see each other for 3 weeks or something.

That sounds right.

It was that classic kind of like a movie Yeah, leave it to Beaver. Our bedrooms, we could see each other and be like, at night, be like, oh yeah, yeah, that was fucked up.

Oh, sorry, what's up?

Sorry.

Yeah, I still like you.

You're rad.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, so the introversion, will we attribute it to anything, or just that was your nature? You wanted to get home, your dad built you a little soundproof box inside the garage for you to fucking thrash around nonstop.

Yeah. My dad built a room inside the garage. That was my place.

And you were in marching band too, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Were you a show-off? Were you fucking flipping the sticks around and stuff? Was there a lot of pageantry to it?

I liked that part of it. That's the part where the showy, twirly things that I later brought along with me into Mötley. But yeah, that was fun. I'm a drummer. I fucking loved drums. And anytime you organize a bunch of dudes all in the drum line, man, that's—

Some magic happens.

Woo!

It's powerful, right?

Yeah, it's primitive. There's something tribal. Tribal that happens.

So fucking cool. Right out of high school is kind of when things blew up for me with Mötley. And I quit my senior year. So that's kind of when everything—

You had Studio 19 in what grade? That was your first band? Yeah, Studio 19.

Sweet 19.

Oh, sorry, Sweet 19.

Yeah, no, it's cool. He knows all this shit.

What year? What grade was that?

Yeah, early senior year.

And this is interesting, I think. The lead singer— singer of Mötley Crüe, Vince, went to your high school, right?

Yeah.

So you knew him, but how close were you? Were you guys friends, or you just kind of knew him peripherally?

We were buds. Yeah, he was always playing backyard parties, and I'd go check his band out. Okay.

And all the girls at the school were in love with him, all over him.

He always had chicks all the time.

Yeah.

So he's like, that was cool too. Of course, hang with them because he did all these shit.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you already tatted by then?

No.

Okay, that came later.

Yeah, yeah.

Okay.

You need a little scratch for that.

Or some really good homies that are, like, tattoo artists. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hook me up, dude. So, Sweet 19, you did play, right? You did shows, and you played some Sunset Strip venues back then.

Yep.

And you met Nikki Sixx doing that?

Yeah, he had come to see us play, and that's where I met Nikki, was at the Starwood.

And did you guys get along instantly? What was the connection there?

Instantly, 'cause I had known him. I had posters of him.

Oh, you did?

His band, London, at the time, they were this really cool kind of glam punk band in Hollywood, and I had one of their posters up in my bedroom. So it was cool to meet him. I was like, "Whoa!" And he had left his band, and he was wanting to start something new.

When he came to see you, was he coming to see you play?

Yes.

Were you head and shoulders above your competition at that time, at that age? Do you think you were pretty mature as a drummer already?

Probably.

Yeah, you can brag.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if this dude's already been in some successful bands and he's coming to scout you, he watches you, he's like, yeah, I want to be in a band with this dude. Yeah, there could be several things. We've also talked to a bunch of people with bands where they go, I just thought this dude looked cool. Like, people might think, I can't— he came in, he played a great solo. No, we're like, this dude's got a vibe, he's so cool. So Nikki could have saw you and been like, oh, this guy's— he innately is a rock star.

Which is probably more the case because Nikki is pretty visual.

Flamboyant.

Yes. And maybe not so much like, oh, he's a super badass drummer.

Yeah, technically he's—

More on the aesthetic side, maybe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know.

And what did Mom and Dad think of this pursuit? You've dropped out of high school. That couldn't have been their dream for you.

Yeah.

You're hanging out on the Sunset Strip.

Not the dream. Teens. Yeah.

How are they responding to that?

They were hating it when I told them I was gonna quit school my senior year. I got— I think I got like 3 months to go, and I'm like, I gotta bail, we got a recording contract.

You guys already had all that before you were out of high school? Mötley Crüe already had a recording contract?

Not a recording contract yet, but we had a manager, and we were—

you're about to sell your first album, right?

Yep. Wow.

Okay, this is 1980.

Yeah.

Oh, this is so exciting.

You're like 17 or something.

You're 17. Yeah.

Oh my God, that's too young to become a rock star.

He's already been having sex for 4 years. Oh yeah, he's okay. I think Mötley Crüe came on my radar in junior high, like '86, right? Even when I'm researching you, I'm like, dude, yeah, 1980 is early for that band. Yeah, it's so '80s, the band. But in 1980, it's a pretty forward progressive band, because we're coming out of like yacht rock time and a little confusion in rock and roll. We don't really know where we're going yet, right? It's a precarious time for rock.

Yeah, it was a weird time. Like, The Knack was huge. Remember My Sharona? Yeah, that was fucking massive.

So how quickly do you guys— well, first of all, so Nikki kind of scouts you, you guys decide let's form this band. Next comes Mick Mars. And then you're the one who says, I know Vince, he gets all the girls back in my high school, we should give him a shot.

Yeah.

So when you called him, was he like, I'm straight, I already have my thing all ironed out, or was he anxious to join this band?

At first he made it seem like it. He's like, oh yeah, fuck yeah, bro. I'm like, dude, you gotta come down, we got this singer right now but he sucks, you gotta come audition, come, you know, give it a rip. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And he didn't show up. Oh great.

Yeah, so, but he eventually did, and Vince was our guy, man.

This is like the lore of a lot of these bands. I don't know, did you watch the Led Zeppelin doc that came out last year?

Yeah, yeah.

Were you not shocked with that first recorded performance of theirs in black and white? They have been a band for like 6 weeks and they play as good as Led Zeppelin ever played.

Insane.

I know, it's impossible. I know, you're like, how could these guys have this synergy? After 6 weeks of playing together. Yeah, but you guys kind of hit that same magic, right? It worked immediately.

Immediately. From the second Nikki and I got together, he had written a bunch of these songs with the anticipation of starting a new band, right? And he's playing them for me on acoustic guitar, and I'm sitting in a situation kind of like this, and I just started playing drums on the table. And we vibed immediately, and it just almost erupted. It was like, this is meant to be. We gotta find a fucking guitar player, we gotta get a singer. That's really where it all started, with an acoustic guitar, a bunch of fucking alcohol, some hands on a table. We were off. That was it.

Yeah, so if we chart your using— I know you've experimented with acid at 13. Where are we at here, senior year? We've dropped off. How often are we using? What are you into at that time?

Then drinking Mostly.

Uh-huh.

And couldn't really afford cocaine yet, so mostly drinking.

Was it immediately problematic, or was it a slow—

Oh, no, not at all.

No, you had a nice ride for a while. You did it like a gentleman for a minute.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, how long did that last?

Fuck. That lasted till 1989. We all decided we needed to go to rehab or someone was gonna die.

You had kind of a 9-year trajectory of it getting progressively more dangerous.

Yeah. Like, till the wheels fall off dangerous. We were shooting, right?

Yeah.

We gotta stop this. This is fucked up. And people are eating handfuls of— they were called halcyons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're like sleeping pills. We'd eat handfuls of them and then go out for the night. Right.

Everything was upside down.

We were zombies, and people weren't waking up. We're like, someone's going to die soon.

Yeah.

So as a collective, the whole band—

the whole band went to treatment, Monica, together. Yeah, at different places.

We can't do this.

This alone, guys. We got to do this together or it ain't going to happen.

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It's on my list of—

oh, it's beautiful.

It's so wonderful. I'm sure it is.

I had read Flea's autobiography, which is an incredible book. It's so good. I'm no historian on the Chili Peppers, but yeah, it's a beautiful doc in this friendship that they had, right? Flea and Anthony in this halal this high school friendship where they're all outcasts, they all see each other, and then addiction's just stronger, you know? Yeah, it's this like beautiful fun thing, and it's fun, fun, fun, and now people are nodding off on stage and people aren't waking up. You know, it catches everyone, and it catches everyone at different times. And I am wondering, like, yeah, when you're in a band with 4 dudes and all of you have your own— your own battle going on, but it's not the same battle. Nikki was a junkie, right? He just loved heroin.

Yeah.

That's probably the harder one to manage in the group if someone's smacked out.

Yeah.

And are you guys expressing concern for one another, or are you just like, "I'm not gonna fuck with you so that you don't ask me about what's going on"?

That's a weird time when you're all wanting to look out for each other, but you're also—

You're addicts.

I can't sit here and beat you up over the dumb shit that I'm doing too.

Were there any adults in the room or parents like, "Hey, we think things are getting a little out of control"?

At this point, way, way beyond parents, like security guards, but people that worked with the management. People are like, dude, you guys, it's time to wrap this up.

I would imagine it's tough too when the persona of it is working so much.

Yes.

And you know, that's part of the appeal of this band.

Of course.

Fucking Mötley Crüe. We're supposed to be animals. Yeah, we're delivering. How much are we in on the joke and how much are we not in on the joke?

Yeah, for sure, right?

Dude, totally.

Are we putting on a show for them, or are we getting played? Are we playing ourselves?

Yeah, man. Yeah, you look back at all that stuff, you think about all the times like you were that persona after the show, a bunch of people coming backstage and shit. And if you're not that guy ripping out of a bottle of Jack Daniels and got a party going on and fucking everything all crazy, they come back to your after party and this fucking rules.

You're selling the dream of it.

You can't keep that up.

It's a performance, right?

Yeah, like it just never stops, right?

Yeah, yeah, you're living it.

I noticed that once you get sober and people come back and see you drinking a bottle of water, they're like, what's this?

Yeah, yeah, that's eerie.

Let's get out of here, let's get out of here. You're just hanging on, literally.

Yeah, you have this heartbreaking— I find it heartbreaking statement where you said, "I've been around the world 100 times, and I've seen nothing." Oh, yeah.

It's a weird one.

Think about it.

It is, yeah.

You've gone around the world that many times, and you've seen the—

Hotel and the arena.

Hotel, the arena, an airplane, a tour bus, and that's it.

Yeah.

Okay, on to the next.

It's lonely.

It's a trip.

I wouldn't even know how to correct for it, the gap in what we've experienced and what you've experienced.

But even in our time, Tiny Experience where we do live shows and there's 3,000 or 5,000 people. It's so thrilling and exciting. And then you go back to your hotel room and you're sitting and then you're like, what happened? All these people love me like one second ago and now I'm completely lonely and I don't know what to do.

It's in your room.

Yeah.

You're experiencing like these two enormous highs and lows within 30 minutes of each other.

Yeah.

Well, that's why you just stay high. You just don't get to the low.

Yeah, yeah, right. Right, it's party time.

Yeah, it's party time.

And depending on how late that goes, sometimes it's into the next day, and you know the drill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Fuck it, let's go.

But I think this would shock people, is like your preference most of the time, you left stage and it wasn't about a girl. It was, let's get coke and let's go back to my room and let's be by myself. Yeah, like the isolation. So like, yeah, what was the gap between— were you having this sense of like, well, I know how this life's supposed to feel because I dreamt of it, and I know how people think it feels, but it's not how it feels. Were you having those big gaps in like what everyone thought you should be feeling versus what you were feeling during the height of that?

Oh dude, full-on band therapist. We'd all get together and talk about how everybody's dealing with this new arrangement.

Yeah. He has new life.

Life, right?

Rock star.

Yeah.

The ultimate.

Literally.

I mean, you're the thing that all the little kids want to be.

Yeah. And interesting, that opens up a whole other thing. Once you start getting into therapy with the people that you work with and that are also going through the same thing, you're learning all these other things about them. And all of a sudden, it's becoming really complicated at the same time. Yeah.

Like, what were you learning? Learning.

You learned a bunch of things about each other that you didn't really know, that nobody talked about.

Because Nikki had a pretty rough childhood.

Yeah.

So you're like, that's coming out.

Yeah, you learn about everybody's stuff there because we wouldn't sit around and talk about personal things. Yeah, we were too busy fucking partying. Yeah, you know, you really get to know people when all that gets pulled away a bit.

And what would happen, like, interpersonally in a group like that— did you always have your bestie in the band, or would it ping-pong? Were there periods where you were closer to this person or closer to that person? Was there, like, ebb and flow in how people paired off?

Yeah, it would move around, but I guess Vince and I would pile up mostly. Mick was quite a full-on recluse. Like, he would sit in his room, windows closed, with his guitar laying in bed. He would never come out.

And he was primarily drinking, right?

Drinking and coke.

And blow.

Yeah.

Okay, great. Right.

And Nikki, he would stay to himself a lot, but we'd go out at nights. But Vince would always, let's go down to the pool at the hotel, and then, you know, we'd start day drinking and we would usually be hanging.

You guys had the constitution to keep it public, keep it out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so now this is a funny personal story. So you guys did— you all go to treatment. I will mention all the albums do great, right? There's 4 before Dr. Feelgood. And you guys are fucked up during all those. They're all great. Shot of the Devil's 5 million copies. Theater Pain's 2x platinum. Girls, Girls, Girls is 4x platinum. So it's all huge. But you guys all go to rehab in '89, and then you come out and you do Dr. Feelgood.

Yeah.

And that's by far regarded critically— it's the most loved, it sold the most albums.

Yeah.

You guys did your best work. I don't know how sober everyone was, but full on, full on. And did that shock you? Do you start thinking you needed to be fucked up to do what you guys did? Was it a shock was it soccer that you guys got together and worked that well sober together?

Yeah, it actually really was. I think between that and between a brilliant idea from our producer at the time was, "Let's get these guys the fuck out of Los Angeles." First of all, I don't want any distractions. These guys are finally clear-headed.

Yeah.

Let's get them away from LA. We go up to Vancouver, and it just rains every day there. So, alls we did was wake up, go to the studio—

Drink a gallon of coffee.

Yeah, exactly. And then go work. Go record and write and do the process. There was no, like, "Oh, it's beautiful out today." It was work and just focus. I hate calling it "work." That's wrong. Between being sober and Bob getting us the fuck out of LA to go focus on what we were there to do was genius. I don't know if we would've done that in LA.

Yeah, right.

That we would have come up with that kind of work.

And at this point, you guys have been together for 9 years, and you're all young dudes. It's almost a miracle you're still together at that point.

To do Dr. Feelgood.

I know, dude.

I pinch myself all the time.

Yeah, I mean, it's probably—

How did that happen? So many times that could have unraveled. Okay, now here's a fun personal experience. So when I, in 1992, '91, I worked for General Motors. And General Motors got called by MTV Movie and said, "We want to do a celebrity race at the Denver Raceway." Grand Prix. You guys build a bunch of Geo Storms. Well, I worked at the race shop that built those Geo Storms, so I went to the Denver Grand Prix in like '91 when I was 16, and you raced in that.

Yes, I was just gonna say, no way!

You raced in it? Vince raced in it. Yes, one of the bald ones. And then Sebastian Bach.

Oh my God.

And I was 16, right? And I think of you anytime I have an interaction with a dude that's terrible. I think, well, you deserve this from your Tommy Lee interaction. So I was like 16. No, this is great. I get to kind of formally make amends for this. So I'm with my uncle. He's like 10 years older than me. We're kind of milling about in this little tent where you guys are at, and we're there to fucking handle the cars. And I start chatting to you, and this is what I said. I go, yeah, I'm not really into Mötley Crüe, but I'm so in love with your wife, Heather Locklear.

Oh my God, Dad.

I know, I know.

That's so bad.

It's so bad.

And my uncle loved it, right? And I was like, I was a legend for fucking 2 days because I said this thing to Tommy Leary.

Somebody—

yeah, yeah, yeah.

And now I think every time a dude comes up to me, he's like, I don't really know you, but my wife thinks you're whatever. I'm like, yeah, I deserve that. Because what I said to Tommy Leary— someone comes up, he's like, I don't care for your shit, but I love your wife. Bags. I'm like, yeah, I deserve that.

Oh my God, dude.

Oh man, do you remember how he reacted?

Totally cool. He's like, I mean, he's talking to a 16-year-old. He's like, oh yeah, you know, he's just nice.

That's nice.

I'm sure. Give me the fuck to move on.

That's nice of you.

Oh my God, you're the first famous person I ever met because I was, yeah, 16 and from Detroit.

Wow.

And then there was this crazy moment.

You were working on those cars?

Yeah, yeah, I worked for this company SportsFab who had built those cars.

Oh, oh, okay.

What a trip.

Total trip. The world is this big, bro. I swear to God.

So I want to apologize for such an obnoxious way to say hi to you 34, 35—

Glad you did.

35 years ago.

Yeah, yeah.

I didn't think I would ever get a chance to say that.

Oh, that's awesome.

So how long did that period, that stretch where everyone went to treatment, how long did that one stretch last for you? And what did you find when you were sober? Like, did your life get way better?

It got way better. And then once again, maybe this is where it all started. Started the first time getting sober. Remember, whole band's doing this thing. The fucking last night of the tour, my boy Vince— last night of the tour, we played Hawaii. We finished in Hawaii, which is fucking rad. After the show, we go over to the strip club.

Uh-huh.

Vince and I head over there. The girls are walking around with the big fucking round trays with the test tubes and shitloads of shots, everything you could want.

Cornucopia.

Yeah. It's the last night of the tour. We're done. We just We look at each other and we go, yeah. And he's like, yeah, the girl, bring all of it. And we just fucking started—

just pick up right where you left off, right?

Right where we left off. Just going fucking bananas. Got shitty. The next day, I couldn't live with the fucking guilt. Pretty much just let our other two boys down.

Yeah, broke this pack.

Yeah, fuck. But I gotta say I'm sorry. And so the whole band's in a room. I was like, guys, I fucked up last Mintz and I went to a strip club and the drink lady came by and it was on.

It was colorful.

The drinks were fun. And it was the last night of the tour. I lost it. I'm sorry.

Yeah.

And I'm sitting there and I'm waiting for Mintz to go, yeah, dude, we did it. And the motherfucker doesn't say a word. Oh, just leaves me. Oh no. Leaves me. I'm looking at him like, are you gonna say something? He never said a fucking word.

How did they take it, the other guys?

They were bummed, but— Yeah.

You also, among addicts, you're like, "Yeah, that's what we do." You're not that shocked ever.

Yeah, it's the end of the tour. You're in the right place at the wrong time.

The other thing I think about that would've been stressful for me, you're much sweeter, I think, than you present. Even the fact that you had to admit that—

Yeah, I know.

I was nice. —to the dude says a lot about your spirit. And also, you're the dude who went and wanted to be alone in his garage and play his drums. I was on a show called Punk'd, right? And when I was on that show, the kind of dudes that would stop me were so aggro.

They're like, bro, fucking punk!

You know, it was like, it was so much. They'd squeal to a stop at a stoplight, just be screaming at me. And I'm like, this isn't my group. Like, I'm not into this kind of attention. Were you a bit in a prison? Like, you represented this thing that was permission to rage and get out all your teenage fucking male everything. Yeah, you had to interact all the time with a lot of dudes that were fucking aggro. Was that hard to have that fan base? Not that you weren't grateful for them, but just— yeah, wouldn't you have rather been approached by the ballerinas going like, I saw you dance at Kennedy Center and wow, you're beautiful? Exactly.

Yeah, but you got all the, oh yeah, bro.

Yeah, crew. Yeah, no emotions, no feelings.

We're never gonna talk about anything that hurts us.

Yeah. Yeah, it's a beautiful thing. I love those type of people. But yes, it's also kind of like, oh boy, this is it.

Yeah, these guys want me to go berserk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, one thing I got— I think Monica would really love to know about this. I certainly did— that you had a little spell where you were a gigolo.

Oh yeah, I do want to know about this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a male escort.

Yeah, for a minute. For a minute. Yeah, Nikki and I both were.

You both were. Is this in the beginning before the band blew up?

Very beginning, when we had We moved into an apartment together, and then we meet this lady who's the madame. How old was she?

Was she a lot older than you guys?

Yeah, she was a few years older than us. And that's where we met and then started talking. She's like, "I got work for you guys." And dude, this was at a time where we're all living together, and we literally— our manager would give us $20 a week. To live on. Each guy got $20 a week. We saw some big numbers. Yeah. And we were like, okay, fuck it, let's do it.

How many dates do you think you went on?

Probably 9 or 10.

And you said they were often older ladies who just wanted some companionship. Yes. And then sometimes they wanted more.

Yeah, sometimes. Sometimes they didn't want more. Sometimes they just wanted to hang out.

Sometimes go and just sit and have dinner with them.

Really? Yeah.

Yeah. And that's it. Just dinner, literally.

Just wanted company, just to dine with. Yeah. And then sometimes they're like, I'd like you to come over.

Yeah.

And then you got to do that. And then that would happen. Were you able to compartmentalize?

If you're just going and having these dates and sometimes having sex with them, you just, like, put that out of your mind? I think if you're a jiggle, you have to do that, right? You have to, like, compartmentalize. Lights down low.

Lights down low. Real low. She's bringing the lights down. But you know what?

I think I was lucky too, because A couple of, like, the older women that I got, they were actually really fun.

Yeah, I bet they were.

They're fucking wild-ass ladies. Well, for some, you know, older lady to be hiring— Exactly.

That's already someone open to some stuff.

She's got to be pretty open and wild anyway. And so a couple that I was fortunate enough to have some good times.

Yeah, yeah, I believe that for sure.

But the lights down low. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know?

It's a secret between you and I. How much money did you make?

Oh, I'd get $500. Oh, nice.

Nice. Okay, $500 compared to your $20 in 1980. Yeah, I know, compared to his $20, $102 grand, dude.

Totally.

If you were living on $20 a week, yeah, you just 50x'd.

$20 a week, you got $500 for a couple hours. You're going to Gil Turner's and stocking up on some liquor.

Okay, how many times did the band break up and get back together?

I left left in 2000. So it's been a couple of times. And then in 2016, we had decided, you know what, let's go out on a high note here, let it rip, and not run this thing into the ground. And then all of a sudden we're playing like county fairs and not so rad gigs, you know. Rather than burn it out, we're like, let's just cut it. And 2016, we kind of officially I don't understand the motivation to do this.

Like, bands do this all the time. It's like, why even declare? Who knows, maybe you'll fucking want to do it again in 4 years, and maybe you won't.

I know. We didn't want to be one of those. We just— we were like, we don't deserve to kind of fucking fade out. Let's take this fucking thing out at the top and then bail. The last thing we wanted to ever do was be another one of those bands that like, oh, they got back together. Right. Yeah, yeah, reunited for another—

they're playing at a tractor pull.

Yeah, we were just like, no, let's make it official, and we signed this whole thing.

You're never allowed to perform as the band outside of the band, right? Yes. Yeah, that part's cool. I think that's right. Yeah, but I think you guys might have misassessed your future. Yeah, there's no reason you're not Metallica. Yeah, right. There's no reason you're gonna dwindle into the county Yeah, I don't know.

There was some weird fear we had. And I think we all, in general, did want to go out on a high note.

Like honor the band in a way.

Yeah. You don't want to overstay your welcome a little bit. Yes, thank you. I get it. It's like ending a show after 4 seasons. You could keep doing it, but it's like, "No, it's done now." It's good to be done here, where it's still good.

I mean, I agree with that, but then also, like— like, I'm going to see Metallica in October at the Sphere. I can't fucking wait. You know, Rolling Stones still play. Uh, there's plenty of examples. Yeah. Okay, so you and Theo talked about this, and I want you to talk about how you can get kind of lost in a purgatory if you're a musician or anyone that does live performances. Theo related, but of course you made a great point. It's like, unlike a stand-up— a stand-up, you go do stand-up on the weekends and maybe you do one show in the week, but you're coming home now. Stop. Yeah. And you're like, when you go on tour, you leave your house and you're not back for 2 years. Yeah. That's a wild experience, I think, mentally. Yeah. And then you guys were both relating to this feeling of like being on the road and desperately wanting to be home, and then once you're home for 5 minutes, the grass is always greener, right?

Yes.

How do you come to peace with that weird tension? And does it like kind of just fuck you up permanently?

I still wrestle with that one. If you're home too long, you're like, fuck, I gotta get out there and rock And then if you're out there too long, you're like, I would fucking shoot my mom right in the back to sleep in my own bed.

Yeah. And is there no option to design these things? Impossible balance. Why can't you design these tours where you do go home once a month for a week or something?

We're doing that now. That's how you're touring now? Yeah, this summer we're going out for, I think, 3 months and that's it.

Okay, you start in July. How much did you bring your boys on the road?

I'd bring them out any chance I could because you miss a lot of shit. How old are they now? My oldest son is going to be 30 in a couple of days. Wow. No shit. Yeah. And my youngest is a year younger. They're all grown up. Yeah. Yeah. They're all grown up.

And did you have anxiety watching them grow up? Like, oh, when is the addiction thing going to catch them?

No. It's crazy because I never thought that. That. My one son is sober. Oh, that's cool. Yeah, he ran it like crazy. I don't know, do you think that stuff is, um, hereditary?

Yeah, the saying we love is like, genetics loads the gun and trauma pulls the trigger. Uh, I believe that. Okay. I also believe you could just be exposed to it and pick it up.

Yes. I'm not sure what—

yeah, like, do you think of your childhood as being traumatic? No, not at all. And is addiction in your family? At all? No, it's not. Yeah. Okay, so you kind of— yeah, you just came to it naturally.

I hope it's not my fucking fault. So no, I never really thought about that too much until it happened, and then I went, uh-oh, fuck, what is this?

There's so many moments in our pop culture that are defined by you at different moments. You're just like— you took over pop culture. What do you think you lost and what did you gain by this really heightened experience. Privacy? Mm-hmm. Lost? We interviewed Pamela a couple years ago. And yeah, her explaining, like, the tension living in Malibu with the photographers and everything that happened was just being documented.

Sounds— She spoke quite highly of you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, the connection you guys will always have. Yeah, totally.

Yeah, we loved talking to her.

Yeah. She's great. But it did not sound fun. No, dude, it was not. Not cool. That was a weird time.

It's hard enough to be wrestling what you and I have wrestled anonymously. That already would be hard enough. But then also you add in this other element of the public. Fuck.

Do you think on any level you sought out the attention? No. You don't think so?

Okay. No. Hell no.

You had enough. Yeah. It found you. On you.

Yeah, yeah, I call it a shit magnet. Oh yeah, yeah.

In 2001, The Dirt, the autobiography that the band put out, came out. Yeah, that was huge. They made a movie out of it. I love hearing this, you love the movie. Love it. That makes me so happy.

Yeah, it's rare. We've all seen some pretty shitty rock kind of doc movies.

Yeah, especially when your brand is cool, right? That's more dangerous for Mötley Crüe to participate in a show and it's That could be rough. You wrote your own biography in '05, Tommyland. And what was it you were wanting to be known about you that wasn't known from The Dirt?

Just more personal, rather than not about the band, more what was going on in my life then. There was a lot to talk about and a lot to not get my side of anything out just the truth, right?

Your experience through all of this. Yes. Did you watch the Man on the Run documentary? The Paul McCartney one? Amazing. Amazing. I just watched it. Jesus, dude. I'm wondering if you had this feeling like, I never took a minute to imagine what it's like to leave the Beatles at 27. I was just like, oh yeah, the dude's in the Beatles, he was happy. He's like, no, he was 27. He had his whole life ahead of him. He still wants to be a musician. Yeah. And he lives under this fucking shadow. He's the one guy can say like, I'm never gonna top this thing. He can probably say that definitively. And yet he found a way to do it, which is insane. It's impossible. And so much failure along the way, right? Like the first two albums no one liked. His band fucking quits when he wants to record in Nigeria. Yeah. And then he writes that album that becomes as big as a Beatles album.

Yes.

It's almost impossible, right, that he was able to do it again.

Yeah, that is insane. Yeah.

Were you relating when you were watching that? Yes. I mean, like, yes dude, same. Leave Mötley Crüe.

The age is what freaked me out, because I didn't realize that's what freaks you out. Because I know what I was doing at 27. I wasn't coming off the Beatles, right?

Yeah. So tell me, when you started doing solo work, or when you did Method of Mayhem, or any of these projects you've done post-Mötley Crüe— yeah— how much of that do you feel the weight of that? Like, oh God, everything will be measured against Mötley Crüe. Yeah, there is that.

But you know what, I don't really focus on that. What I enjoy the most is— I call it, you know, my adult sandbox. It's like I get to do creatively whatever I want to do. That is the fun part, and that's my main focus and objective is for that kind of work outside of Mötley is I can do whatever I want to do. This is such an exploration, you know what I mean? Like, ah, dude, anything goes. I have somebody going like, ah, it doesn't sound like Mötley. This is where I really get to wield my creativity.

Yeah, you got into DJing for a while. You're kind of like into electronic stuff. You're into really everything. I've always been that way, man.

Super eclectic, into everything. Everything but country music. That's my only thing that I dislike. I don't know why, but I can't— when I think of country country music, I just cannot stop. The song comes into my mind and I don't know why, but maybe that's part of the reason I fucking don't really like it. Put another log on fire, check me up some bacon and some beans, sew my socks and wash my old blue jeans. You sound good singing. Put another log on fire.

Aren't I always nice? Your kid sister. Don't I take her driving every night? Oh shit. Oops. Yeah, so that's not, that's not the song that's going to get you into country for sure.

And my buddies have tried, you need to go to Stagecoach. Uh-huh. Oh yeah, it's nothing but chicks. And I'm like, I'm good, dude. I'm good.

I'm happy. Chick phase is over. Yeah, we're post-chick phase of our life. I mean, I got to bring this up just because I almost fought him too. You got in this fight with Kid Rock.

Did you guys punch each No, that's the fucking craziest thing is nobody got at each other. Okay. There was people on us so quick pulling us apart, but there was a couple swings and a miss, and then we were okay.

So it's not even a fight?

No. Yeah, not at all. Like, people like, oh yeah, fucking punch Tommy Lee, dude. He never touched me. Like, it never happened. Yeah. I don't know what edit you saw, but yeah. What was the impetus of that? I don't even know. You know what? I got up to go to the bathroom. I come back from the bathroom and he's sitting in my seat. Oh, oh, you know, they do that.

Just kidding.

Seat filler. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They go to commercial or he just saw that I left and went, I'm going to go sit in his seat and start shit. I don't know. I don't know what the objective was, but I came back and he's in my seat and I'm like, bro, what are you doing? Yeah, yeah. And he's like, fuck you. It was just on.

Yeah, but it's fake on.

It seemed intentional. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, I don't think it just was filling a seat. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Okay, so explain Tommy Rides Again. You already have that album, and now how do you re-tackle the same album?

We're talking about re-releasing it for its 20th year anniversary. And I had just built a Dolby Atmos recording studio in my home. And once I kind of went down that rabbit hole, I was just like, "Oh my God, this is the most insane thing I've ever heard in my entire life." life, and I can never listen to stereo ever again after this.

Because Atmos has sound coming from what, the ceiling, above, above, behind, sides, rear. You're literally in the mix.

You're like, are you fucking kidding me? Anyway, I'm obsessed. Yeah. And talking about re-releasing for the 20th anniversary, Tommyland: The Ride, and there's no Dolby Atmos mix of it. So I was like, I want to remix it and sort of reimagine it if we're going to do it, why not? That's what we ended up doing.

Are you technically quite savvy, like on the board and stuff? You are? Oh yeah, you geek out on that. Totally. When you're making music now though, does it start with drums? Not always.

Sometimes it'll be a guitar riff, a drum beat. It's usually there's some sort of melody in my head and then I'll start banging around on a keyboard just to get the melody out. It's funny because in In the Tommyland: Rides Again, the new version that just came out, there's a new song called Stupid World that I put on this record. I had written that in like—

it was COVID 2020.

Yeah, I'd written that around then. So going back and finding that, I was like, it is so fucking appropriate right now because the world, to me, we're in a really fucking stupid place. It's just really stupid everywhere. I wrote this around COVID Also a stupid time.

Yeah, also a stupid time.

It was really bizarre. Yeah, really felt like the world might end. And I didn't think much of it. We write things all the time and put them away, and you're on to something else. And anyway, so in the new studio, I was opening up some older songs and files that I had been working on for the last few years, and I found that, and I was like, "Oh, man, this is so fucking appropriate." And going back and finding old work is really fucking cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Stay tuned for more Armageddon. Chair expert, if you dare. Have there been instruments that you've fallen in love with after doing solo stuff and wanting to create your own stuff? Have you picked up other instruments that you didn't play in the '80s?

No, I've always played keyboards, sing. I would sing on a lot of Mötley demos because we couldn't get Vince to come over to singing, keyboards, bass, guitar, drums. Obviously I kind of play enough of everything.

So when you're on tour this year, will you be behind the drum kit? On drums the whole time?

Yeah. And play piano really quick.

The physicality— what are you, 63 now? Yeah. And you've treated your body like absolute dog shit. It's like shocking you're as healthy and robust as you are. But drums, man, is a fucking hard instrument to play, dude. It's insane. And when you see these, like, Gene Krupa or these old dudes who still were fucking slaying at like 70, you're like, how do they have even— there's still—

yeah, yeah, I know. It's crazy, man. It's so physical.

Is it what's kept you in shape? 100%.

By the time I get done after a 2-hour show, I'm fucking toast, just physically. And then your ears, you're just laying in bed hearing— oh wow, she's really high-pitched, you know, a little squeal. You're like, okay. We're done, right? Stop. You don't realize it, man. I sweat like a motherfucker. I don't really, like, gain any size, like muscle. And I weigh the same I've weighed in high school. Like, what is the fucking deal? What is happening?

What genetics do you have?

I clipped one of those pedometers on my shoe. I clicked it on before the show, take it on after the show, and it said 13.3 miles. Oh my God. I just did 13 miles sitting down. Yeah, from the kick drum.

Yeah, it was all that.

And I was like, okay, that explains a lot. I guess. Yeah, you're pretty much doing more than like half a marathon.

Oh my God.

Do you have any repetitive injury stuff? Like, do you have wrists or shoulder? Are you held up pretty fucking good? I'm pretty good, man.

I had one hand surgery because I had a—

it's called Dupuytren's.

I can never fucking pronounce it. Dupuytren's contracture.

Okay.

And it's where the nerves in your hand that you have running through here, over time, they start to pull. This finger was stuck. Oh, wow. Like in this position and both of these. So they had to go in and cut that and get rid of it. That's the only thing that's really physically— and that's a scary one. That's my hands.

Yeah, exactly. Do you ever wonder what you would look like had you not done anything? Because I'm inclined to think genetically you might be at a freak. Like, you might have looked 38 years old right now.

Oh, have you not done drugs?

Yeah, you not done anything. Maybe. I mean, can you—

because you look great. Oh, thanks, bud.

Yeah, I can only imagine what you would have looked like if you had taken the Engelbert Humperdinck route.

Fuck, I'm looking all 18. He's fucking 63.

Okay guys, that's my last question. Do you still have dreams? I'm wrestling— I'm behind you 10 years, but I still wonder how how much fuel I have in the tank to be productive and engaged. I just might want a bonsai tree the rest of my life. What kind of, like, goals and motivations do you have? And do you feel like as you're getting older, it's harder to give a shit about that stuff?

I'm not sure what that is, but not that I haven't set goals in the future. I think that I have stopped projecting. For me, at least, it gives me anxiety thinking about things that haven't happened or could happen or this. I feel like these days I'm living really for the fucking moment. We are right here, right now. Like, Bill, that's a big change. I used to do a lot of that, the looking forward. And I think right now, these days for me, I'm really comfortable with just looking right here.

Do you think it helps that you've had all the dream outcomes? And the dream outcomes didn't really feel as good as anticipated. So you're like, oh, maybe it's actually not about the outcome. It's just about, like, how much I enjoy it en route to the outcome.

That's a pretty deep one, dude, because I remember a little kid jumping up and down on my fucking bed, playing air guitar and playing cardboard boxes and going like, I'm going to be that guy. Like, I'm going to fucking do this. This knowing that, you know. So it's weird, like sometimes you do have those projections and other times you're just so pumped just to fucking be here.

Are you proud of yourself when you think about that little boy? Like, you did do it. Fuck yeah.

Yeah, yeah, that's so cool. The one thing, my poor fucking parents, all I can say, a drummer constantly making fucking noise.

And then when he finally leaves the house, you're like, oh my God, is he gonna live through this, right? Yeah, exactly.

Your mom going "Um, why you drink so much?" Yeah. Just all the time. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Brutal. I do have a question.

Has there been jealousy in the band? Was there jealousy amongst the members? Like, did anything get crazy? No, not really. Really? I don't think so. That's surprising.

But he's in a tricky position to evaluate that because as the drummer, weirdly, he and Vince were so famous. Everyone had a lot of fame. Name.

I feel like maybe they'd be jealous of you because you're kind of—

yeah, exactly. I would. I don't know.

Yeah, I think you're the lasting name that's come out of that band. Gotcha. That other generations know. Yeah, you're right. Maybe that's a question for them.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess I want to end on this. It's just a compliment. You have navigated so much messy business. You think? I mean, yeah, you're from a different era. It's back like when you were in a rock band, you slept with someone in every city. No one had phones, no one tweeted about it, no one did anything about it. No phones being a big one. Pictures. You made it through that whole phase. But what I think is super telling is like, I've met a couple folks that you've shared years with, and those folks like you a lot. That's cool. I think your sweetness has really carried you throughout a very tumultuous and what could have been many times, thanks for playing moments. You got to get out of here forever now. And that never really came your way. And I think it's a testament to your kind of sweetness.

That's sweet. Yeah. No, you're just fucking likable, right?

Yeah, you're very likable.

Oh yeah. But when you were upstairs, your wife did say that you posted your dick on Twitter.

Yeah, how did that happen?

Yeah, we want to know how that happened. Just drunk. Okay, just drunk. People have missed it. Yeah, yeah, because I do recall earlier I said, do you think he sometimes— you draw the attention, and then, you know, I am circling back to maybe there's a kernel of that. Yeah, we might not be able to help it. I mean, it's like you're a rock star. It's who you are. It's your identity.

Kind of expected, maybe. I don't know.

I've had all the addictions, but sex and love addiction, for sure, 10 out of 10 for me. And really, once I got into therapy like 6 years ago, really understanding— no, the first drug was this 8th grade girl liked me who was the most popular girl in the school, and I've never been higher in my life than her asking me out. Just, that was fucking unbelievable. Unbelievable. Do you feel like you've had that addiction? Oh, is that the first drug? Girls' approval?

Yeah. There was a girl in my school in high school, the hottest chick in the whole school, stunning, beautiful. I would just be like, I wonder if that's even possible. Yeah, no, I can't ask, I can't.

And then when that happens, yeah, yeah, it takes over your whole life, right? Like when that girl likes you, you're just fucking walking around like you are the king of everything.

The next thing you know, you're in your van on acid fucking the girl who you thought you could never ever be with, and you're like, what just happened?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Whoa, dude. Yeah.

And then you're just chasing that for the rest of your life.

That kind of— the hottest girl in the world. The pace.

Yeah. Fuck. Which one do you think was harder to let go of, drinking and drugs, or female approval and attention? Drinking and drugs.

Harder. Way harder. Way harder. Hard. It's hard.

Well, Tommy, this has been a blast. I want everyone to check out Tommy Land Rides Again remastered with a new song that's out right now. You can listen to it everywhere. And then go see Tommy fucking play. Rock shit. Come to the tour. Where do people go to get tickets for the tour?

Motleycrew.com. Okay. Is a good place. Everything's there.

Dates, tickets, So listen to Timeland Rides Again. Go see them play this summer. It'll be memorable. You won't regret it. This has been a blast. I'm glad I got to apologize for my behavior at 16 or 15. I was 15. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it was a blast. Yeah, long time coming.

Yeah, dude, totally. Be well.

Oh my God.

Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks.

Judd Brewer. Judd Brewer. Can you even think of another Judd? Apatow. Yep.

I'm glad we had a neurologist on.

Yeah, well, neuroscientist. Very good timing for you and all your thoughts of neural pathways and— that's right, transmission.

I didn't get to ask him all the questions I wanted about, um, your ailment. Yeah, I thought maybe that would not be productive for us, but I had questions.

We should get an arthritis doctor on here so I can really perv out.

So you're allowed, but I'm not? No, you are.

I'm just saying I'm surprised we haven't gotten an arthritis doctor that I can basically just make treat me real time in the interview.

I know. Okay, so Judd, he talks about the two-body problem, which is a dilemma for life partners. In academia relating to the difficulty of both spouses obtaining jobs at the same university or within a reasonable commuting distance from each other. That would be very hard. It's like, it's a— it's like acting, I guess.

And I really like the idea of professors being married for some weird reason. I don't know why. I don't care if machinists are married to one another.

Me too.

Doctors— I guess I want doctors to be married too. Really? Yeah, because I imagine their work is so esoteric it would take another doctor to really geek out on what they're interested in.

Oh, interesting. I like the idea of a doctor with someone who doesn't know anything about medicine so they can help benefit. Yeah, exactly. You only need one doctor in the pair.

Well, that's John and Joya. Jon Favreau, he's a genius because he went out and got himself Joya, who is an emergency room doctor. And I would watch them raise kids and I thought, anything can happen. They can let anything happen because Joya's here. I know. She'll just fix everyone right up.

That's what I want.

I always felt so safe knowing she's around. I was like, I can go into cardiac arrest, she'll handle it. Anything. Yeah. It's about the best person to have around.

We were just talking about that the other day. My friend Laura and I, because you know, we're in this group of all of our friends and we're single, although now she has a quarantine boyfriend.

Yeah.

Don't put her on blast.

She might still have some lures in the water.

You're making her Facebook, what's the term? Official? No, they're Facebook official. She posted something the other day. Day about him. Oh yeah. Oh, oh, oh, oh, great, great. But anywho, generally we're the single ones. We were saying, who should we date? Who's going to add something new to the group? And what are the categories?

I'm really glad you guys are thinking that way too. Productive.

Yeah, we're trying to be efficient.

I think you need an ER doctor. That way I can like fuck around on these vacations and not even worry about it.

Well, I have been saying that I, I'd like a doctor in the group for sure, especially people are doing backflips and stuff off the house into the pool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we need a doctor there. And somebody said— this was on a girl's Marco Polo— Marco Polo, if you're listening, I'd love some free— I think it's trying to make me pay now. Oh, um, it's not letting me do 2x, and it's a problem. Wow.

So that, by the way, what a great way to monetize that, because you gotta go 2x.

Once you're used to going 2x, going back is—

by the way, we mean double speed. Yeah. So if you use Marco Polo, it's a fantastic app. It really is phenomenal, but you'll become immediately aware of how fucking slow everyone gets their thoughts out. It's maddening. Yes, they need a quadruple speed.

I think they do have a triple in this payment package. Uh, worth it. It probably is. I should just buy it.

Maybe you should buy it for your birthday's around the corner. Let me buy a year worth of fast forwarding through all your friends. Oh, how sweet. I'd be happy to buy that for you. Oh, should I buy that Kristen for her?

I think it's like upcoming $7. I don't think you need to buy that as her birthday.

Nobody would just be thoughtful. I'm so fucked. This birthday is knocking on the back door. I thought about this idea. What do you think about this idea? I mean, we shouldn't be doing it on here. She doesn't listen. I'll cut it. Maybe the viewers will text us ideas. Okay, go on. They're listeners, not viewers, Dax. So here's what I thought the other day. What would you think about this? I'll book like 5 bedrooms at a hotel and I'll get a baby babysitter, get on the same floor of like a nice hotel here in the city, maybe the Peninsula or something. It'll be like the Richardsons, the Hansons, you, and we'll just all wear like bathrobes and we'll get room service and we'll lay in bed.

And then maybe we'll go out on the pool, maybe we won't.

Yeah, that sounds lovely. Like, because that—

isn't that what she would want? Just to be able to lay in bed for 7 hours and read or knit and do all that shit. And then she could check in and out with you guys if she wanted to be social, she could.

If she didn't, right? I think that's good. Yeah, I think she wants some just peace. Yeah, yeah. Um, so that sounds wonderful. I like that idea.

Okay, I'm gonna pursue it a little further. Okay.

All right. And I have an idea. I'm scared to say it. Okay, but I'll say it. Maybe because maybe some— you're right, maybe someone could help.

Yeah. Again, she's not gonna hear this.

What if someone like DMs or something and is—

well, don't be a dick. How about this? If you're out there, don't be a fucking dick. Well, okay, she don't read her DMs, so I guess I'm not worried about that. It's just if you know if we're all friends. Don't fuck this up.

Yeah, so when she was in Paris over a year, about a year ago, and there was this chandelier that she wanted very badly and was really on the fence about, what, should I get it, should I not? Too expensive. She thought it was too expensive.

That's why I like her, she's frugal and ish.

She did not end up getting it, and since we've had so many conversations, she regrets it. And it was at got a— it's a vintage chandelier. It's gonna be at a pawn shop. It's gonna be hard to track down, but I'm gonna do it.

Oh, you're saving the day, and we're gonna get it.

I, I really hope it's still available. That's my— I'm worried it got bought. If you bought it, if you're a listener and you bought it, can you give it to us? Because it's her birthday.

This is the year— the exact kind of challenge for you though.

I love it.

Yeah, this is your sweet spot. I really want to start tracking something down. Sleuthing, gumshoeing. Veronica Mars. Veronica Mars. Yeah, it would only be appropriate that Ron Mars would get something that had to be Ron Mars for her birthday. I really hope it works out.

If it doesn't work out, she'll divorce us.

I guarantee I'm gonna hate it because if you're not gonna like the look of it— yeah, I already know that. I already know that she made the right decision and buy it. No, why? I just know. I can tell. She, she buys things if— No, no, she, she wants it.

She has said it so many times.

Okay, where, where's it going?

I think it should go in your bathroom.

Oh, and I won't like it, so I'll have to see it all.

But it'll be over the tub. It'll be—

I just won't look up. It's beautiful.

All right, I won't look up.

You've seen it and you like it? I can't remember if I like it. It's She likes it, and that's all that matters. Okay, he said that his dad was a deadbeat. Okay. And then I kind of got interested in where that phrase came from. Oh yeah. Ooh, I didn't really find it. Oh shit.

Okay, because I wanted to guess. Well, yeah, let's guess. I think it's a newspaper term. I think it's people who got assigned beats, you know, they call that in journalism, like you have the science beat, you the financial beat. I think it's a beat that doesn't generate any stories. Like, you've been given this completely deadbeat. Oh, and then that just ended up— because newspaper writers affect our colloquials— that it just emanated from there, as if it emanated from sports. You know, so many of our sayings are like, they're sports-related. Sure. Don't strike out, right? Yeah, yeah. I'm guessing it's coming from, from the the newspaper world.

Interesting. But how does it equate to Debbie Parent?

Well, just people probably were using the— well, that's a deadbeat, that's a deadbeat, you know, it's something useless. Oh, and then it just got transferred to deadbeat parent, deadbeat thing. That, or the only other thing I can think of that has beats— well, there's two. Well, okay, I got two more. Um, there's beats in cop patrols. You have different beats. You could have a deadbeat, like there's nothing going on. So similar, similar. Car. Yeah. And then I guess you could say musically, like, that's a deadbeat, it doesn't add anything to the song. I'm going with the newspaper guest.

I like the newspaper guest. When I hear deadbeat, just the sound of it, I hear like physical abuse.

Oh no, deadbeat dad doesn't mean that.

No, I know that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it doesn't mean that at all. You're absent. Exactly. But when I hear the words dead dead and beat. Uh-huh. It sounds to me like violent and somebody was beaten to death.

Well then, right, that would be, um, let's see. So dead beat would be beat dead. That's the phrase you're afraid of. It's the person was beat dead. Well, sure, I don't like that.

I don't like it. Yeah, flip it. Okay, the legal definition defines deadbeat parents as— yeah, I like that it's parents. It's not really fair for us to say deadbeat dad, even though it's fair. Okay, it's 100% fair. Well, in his case it was that. And yeah, yeah, okay. The legal definition defines deadbeat parents as parents of either gender who have freely chosen not to be supportive parents or who do not pay their child support obligations. However, the label has become so generalized that the freely chosen aspect is too often forgotten. Most of the fathers lumped in as deadbeat dads are not dads unwilling to support their children. They are simply unable to afford the child support. Yeah, when 66% of all child support not paid by fathers is due to an inability to come up with the money, calling all the dads who miss payments deadbeats is painting with far too broad of a brush. Mhm. Interesting.

Uh, my father never paid child support, so he was—

and he drove a Corvette and he had a lot of money, so he was technically a deadbeat dad.

I hate to say that out loud, but it is the truth. That's where a lot of my ire stems. That's the, the thing I can't make peace with. He was lovely. He was sweet to me. Yeah. And then he was also— he didn't— he loved you. Yeah, he did. He loved me. Uh, but it's hard for me to reconcile the fact that he didn't fucking pay child support.

Is it because he was always on the verge of not having any money?

He just spent it all on himself. Always. As a rule of thumb, if he had written a book on finance, it would have been spend 170% of what you make. That was his— so there were periods of his life where he actually made a ton of money. Like, I think he made almost a million dollars $1,000 a year in Michigan in like '98. Wow. But he went and immediately bought a million-dollar house, a Jaguar, two Harleys, blah blah blah. He spent more than— he had this gangster apartment in Chicago overlooking the river.

How can he not be forced to pay? That's what—

how? My mother never took him to court. That's what would have happened. She could have taken him to court for not paying child support. She could have reported him, right? And she never did.

Okay, so, well, speaking of, in the '80s, how many single moms? Okay, by 1980, the number of single-parent families stood at 5.9 million, which represented an increase of 71% during the '70s. The rate of increase slowed significantly during the '80s, although the number of one-parent families continued to increase.

Well, my parents got divorced in 1978.

Oh, so they were part of this group.

I was still one of very few. I think we were the only family on our block really that had a single parent.

Yeah, it's so amazing how it's changed.

I mean, but it was really segregated economically. So Oxford Acres was pretty nice, it was like middle class, and everyone was married. But then all my friends who I liked hanging out with, the poor kids from LaSalle Gardens and all these different mobile home parks, all those people's parents were divorced.

Well, Well, it makes sense, right? If you only have one income coming in, you're most likely gonna have less money.

That's true. And I think there's other factors, but yeah, yeah, I think the alcoholism rate is higher. I think the domestic disturbance— you know, there's a lot of things inextricably married to low income that's unfortunate, right?

But it's all connected, right? Maybe like if you're by yourself, you're raising 3 kids, kids, that's maybe a little miserable. And, you know, I mean, and you don't have— you have one job, you don't have very much money, like, maybe you're more willing to drink. And then it's a spiral.

But I have to imagine there's a really high correlation between low-income and unwanted pregnancies. I don't think rich kids have nearly as many unwanted babies.

Yeah, well, exactly.

Yeah, so it all feeds into itself.

Well, and again, like, healthcare, like, rich kids get on birth control or have abortions. And there was just yesterday the Supreme Court, the, the Louisiana abortion case. There's a bunch of horseshit, these trap laws where they say like you have to have—

the one of them was the, the hallways had to be long and are wide enough to support two hospital beds passing each other at speed. Like something that would never happen at a— any place. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And this one specifically was there had to be another type of hospital within some range of the clinic in case something went wrong.

Yeah. And then I also think maybe that those doctors also had to be resident doctors at other hospitals, which is just insane.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it was another positive Supreme Court ruling. There's been— Robert—

yeah, he voted, and his real allegiance, which is very admirable is precedent. That's his thing. It's like he won't let his opinion override precedent. Like, he was basically deciding, no, we've decided this case. It was Roe v. Wade, right? And this is in opposition to Roe v. Wade.

Well, there was a case in Texas, I think, that was specific, that was very— it was this exact thing. Oh, okay. I think Roe v. Wade is still, like, quote, on the chopping block. Yeah. Which, oh my God. Yeah. Anyway, so, so that was good. But you know, it, it's just, you see how it all ties together, right? So if, if the clinic can't be in a rural area, mm-hmm. Then people who are in poor areas can't get abortions. And then it's just this cycle. Yeah. It's like, it's all part of the same conversation we're having over and over again where especially like Black people are are again in these positions like that they can't get out of. Mhm. So this was good. This was good news for the Supreme Court.

Well, as that systems guy told us, whatever result you're seeing is a perfectly designed system to create that result. Yeah. So if you don't like the results, you can't just wish the results are different. The system is creating them perfectly. Yeah.

The meme that, you know, has been going around is the system is not broken, it was built this way.

Right, right, right, right, right, Right. Yeah, yeah, it works perfectly. Yeah, to get the result that we're getting.

Oh yeah, so you talked about the 60 Minutes food chemist, and I read this article and it is— yeah, they just actively make an addiction.

Yeah. And I'm gonna say, I'm not— I would say I'm not as cuckoo about food as I think a lot of my friends are. Yeah, I'm not like— you were vegan for a bit, you've done no sugar, things to feel good for sure. Um, I guess just what I'm saying is it's, it's not my cause per se. I'm not someone who's like anti-GMO and all these different things. But when I saw that, I did think like— I guess let me, let me back up. If people want to fucking eat McDonald's, go get them. I guess that's what I'm saying. I have friends that probably want to make that illegal, right? Right. So I'm like, go get them, get fat, die, whatever.

Oh, I'm a—

you know, that part of me is a libertarian. Don't die now, but don't die. But, but, you know, but it your right to. With that said, I'm watching that. It's not unlike the technology in our apps where I was watching that and I realized we are defenseless. There are people that are much smarter than us and have a much better plan to trick your body that anyone would be powerless over. If they make the taste disappear immediately, so I mean, you can't compete with that. No. And I was like, how can an individual compete with billions of dollars being spent to make you do this.

And that's where we get into this huge ethical question, and it correlates currently to masks, right? Yes, everyone technically has the right to commit suicide, to kill themselves, but you do not have the right to kill— to kill somebody else.

Yeah, it's true, it's true. Again, and I just want to be on record as saying, look, I am way further on the right side of the spectrum about corona than all my friends. I've been wrong several times already, which I've admitted to, but I still am like, there ain't no stopping it unless the hospitals are overrun. Let's just get this thing going. Protect the old people.

Old people, the hospitals—

hospitals are starting to get really crazy here. They just sent out like a— they're getting worse.

They're getting worse. Yeah, you know, part of me, again, the libertarian Part of me is like, you know, old people are drastically outpacing the rest of the population for dying of this. And I'm sorry, I love my— well, I've lost my last grandparent recently, but I love— I loved my grandparents. It's on them to protect themselves. I'm sorry, it's— part of me is like, you're the one that's at high risk, so you got to have your shit buttoned up. You got to not interact. Interact with people without masks. You gotta— but let me just— okay, that's— I'm just telling you my position. But I still have to do the right thing ethically, even though I feel that way emotionally about it. I have to do the safest thing possible. Yeah, I have to do everything I can because some of those old people aren't gonna do it, and they're stubborn, and they have this, that, another reason. And I, I should be benevolent enough to help, and I'm going to do that. I'm going to go against what my instinct is to do. And there's no arguing that if both people have masks on, you're in the single-digit percentage of transmission.

So as opposed to 70%, I guess here's my thing.

It's like, oh God, I always, I always use this. No wonder they hate me. If you're diabetic and you don't have insulin on you and you can't eat a bunch of carbs right now, it's not my job to fucking take all the carbs out of the restaurant or not eat carbs in in front of you. It's your job to monitor your blood sugar. So if you are susceptible to this disease, you got to protect yourself. That's not my job.

But older people generally are the ones that need a little more help, right? So, right, you're right. If I need to help my grandma, if I'm the one in charge of taking care of her, yeah, and I have to go to the grocery store to buy a groceries and no one there is wearing a mask, and now I am totally susceptible and I bring that to them. They're being careful, that's the best case scenario, but I could bring it to them.

But again, and not to be a dick, but you know, you shouldn't hang with your grandparents until there's a vaccine then.

But, but what if they can't feed themselves?

Oh well, then you can drop shit off at their door.

I mean, you don't have to interact with them, but older people People need more help. They just need more help. Like, my mom's sister is living with my grandparents right now, and that needs to happen. That's not like she just wants to— that, that needs to happen. And so if my aunt gets it, yes, she'll probably be fine, but they will not be fine. And it's not a choice for a lot of people. And a lot of people live— you know, we're privileged. We, we we can be distant and we can do that. A lot of people don't have that luxury. They're a big family living in one house and you can't separate, you know. So it is up to us to have some social responsibility to help the people who are not in the positions we're in. Yeah.

You know, my friend has it right now. I told you this whole story. No, we were supposed to go off-roading. Uh-huh. Uh, so my friend is a, a music producer. Mm-hmm. And he and I were supposed to go off-roading roading, and it was all set. And then he called me the day before, he's like, I'm so sorry, but I, I have to fly to Miami. Some big hip-hop artist wanted him to come record the next morning. So he went and he was there for a few days, and then he came back. And when he got back, he goes, yo, they do not give a fuck about Corona down there. Yeah, no one had blank, blah, blah, blah. And then he, he got it, he got it while he was there. So he has it right now, and I've been checking in with him to see, like, you know, how's it— he's like, it's good, you know, my breathing hasn't been affected which is good. But, um, he says that the day before, he was so fucked up that his wife was talking to him and he couldn't— he's like, I couldn't— I thought she was speaking another language.

And I was like, oh my God, I'm, I'm going downhill. Went to bed, woke up the next morning, and was like, oh, it passed. I feel back to normal. He's excited. His wife makes him his favorite meal, pork chops with this mushroom gravy. And he goes, honey, you changed recipe? No. And she's like, no. He's like, yeah, you did. What, what'd you do different? She's like, honey, I didn't do anything different. He's like, oh my God, it tastes different.

He can't taste anything.

He's like, bring me a strawberry. She brought him a strawberry. He— nothing. He has no smell and no taste as of yesterday. Now hopefully that'll return.

See, but that's freaky. This is it. We don't know all the things yet. I'm sure it'll return and he'll be fine. But well, that's scary. I hope he feels better. Well, anyway, it's important to have social responsibility.

Well, again, that's the whole reason I laid out my whole thing is I'm telling you what I would want to do. Yeah. But I am saying there is a time for individual rights and there is a time to get over that. Yeah. You know, yeah, it's gonna be a year out of your life. Yeah, it's gonna be a fucking year of your life. Of 80 years, hopefully. Yeah, uh, that you had to wear a mask when you left the house. At the risk of getting into a fight with you, which we're gonna avoid, but I also— you do have to weigh the economy. You have to weigh what percentage of GDP drop will result in which amount of death, and then compare that potential collateral death against what the deaths would have been from Corona. That you just— responsibly, you have to think of that. If the cure is worse than the disease, if end up killing people because people aren't getting screened for cancer and they're not getting their vaccines on time and all these other things. If that number ends up being worse than Corona, then logic would tell us we got to just eat Corona and not— because it'll be a net smaller death.

Okay, with all that said, even if that was true, you wearing your mask to places has no impact on any of that. Yeah, you know, it just doesn't. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I mean, again, it's, it's a little more complicated than that. It's like, it's, it's disproportionately affecting one community, and if we just let those people die, that's not okay. You're speaking of the Black and Latino?

Yep. Yeah, rich people fare better.

Like, that's, that's true.

That's how it should be. Oh yeah, yeah, like the guy who owned the Clippers. Sterling. Sterling.

Yeah, Donald Sterling. Oh yeah, he was a great guy.

He's person.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

Um, okay, the Swedish word for not too much, not too little— lagom. Lagom. Just the right amount. Okay, and then we talk a little about shrooms on this podcast. And it, it seems apropos for me to say, since we recorded this, I have tried them.

Yes, you tried them, and I didn't even instigate it. You did not even instigate it, but I volunteered to be a part of it.

Yes, and to be a, um, babysitter.

Yes, the sober, sober companion.

And I'm very grateful that there was a sober companion there. It was everything you said it was gonna be. You were right. I'll say it again. I've said it a lot of times, but I'll say it again.

I was wrong about Corona, but I was right about mushrooms.

You were right. It was a, a lovely experience, and it was really cool to see the world in a brand new way.

Yeah, it's best to take your standard world you've seen all the time that you're familiar with and recognize recognize how much your brain is in charge of assembling these photons in a way that you call reality. Yeah. And then all of a sudden your brain starts assembling them in a different way. Yeah. And it is a different reality. Yeah. And it cannot be experienced without that. Yeah. I mean, maybe some meditators can or something, but yeah, to walk down a street that you've walked down—

I know, it was— that was such a big takeaway for me is I just kept thinking, I'm taking everything for granted. Yeah, like, this is beautiful. I walk down this street every— not, you know, enough, a lot. And, and I'm missing it. I'm missing it every time.

What I think what happens, like, the best way to explain it— and we've had a lot of experts on here talk about how your brain is fantastic at filing things into the subconscious. So operating the car, you're not thinking about driving the car, you just drive the car because the whole program is running in the subconscious. Yeah. And we're also great at getting rid of distractions so we can focus on the things we want, which means filing everything else into that white noise category. And when you get on shrooms, it's no longer white noise. It's all right there. All these things that you've learned to ignore. Yeah. Through design. Yeah. You now can see.

And I think probably for different people, there's a different level of that, right? Because we talked about this on a couple of episodes ago. I feel that I'm in my head all the time. Yeah. And you feel that way too. I'm in my head so much that I'm not paying attention to the physical world around me very often. And yeah, so this was such a different reality for me, whereas for some other people, I, I think it wasn't as extreme, right?

It's not as big of a difference. Yeah. The other thing it's great at doing, and this is well documented in— what's name's book. Michael Pollan's. Yep, Michael Pollan's book is— your brain's really, really good at comprehending you as an individual and then the world separate from you and around you. Yeah. And shrooms breaks down the barriers a bit of your sense of individualness and your sense of detachment, and you feel like when you touch the pavement and you touch the flower you're really interacting with it, like, in a way that is not, I'm this and that's that. It's like, oh, we're this thing. And I don't know, there's— yeah, that's the thing I also like about it, is how it kind of shatters this obsession of your identity. Yeah, right. I guess.

Well, so I had a tough start. Uh-huh. I got really scared. Um, everyone who I trusted looked bizarre.

And so everyone was getting high, and I had completely forgotten the most annoying part about doing drugs was that everyone just monitors how high they are for the first hour. Yeah. Are you— I'm at a 3. Are you 2? I'm at 1. Well, look at those trees. Let's look at those trees. Yeah. Is that leaf doing that? No, this leaf's not doing this. Is that leaf doing this? No, I can't feel anything. I'm too high. The whole thing. Yeah. I was like, I need to step out until everyone just feels high. So I went inside and I started playing Words with Friends. Yeah, I was gone for 20 minutes, and then it really hit you. Yeah, 20 minutes. Yes. And you were like, what the fuck? You told me you're gonna help me and you've abandoned me.

Yeah, I felt like you gave me drugs. Like, well, a lot. I felt like we've been talking about this for years, you've been trying to get me to do this for years, and then you, you left. Yes, which I did.

It was very regrettable. But of all the people that were doing it, you were 0% high. You were saying—

I was, yeah.

I was like, oh, she's not even high, and this conversation is annoying, I'm gonna go inside.

I wasn't high, and then all of a sudden I looked down at my hands because you had said that when, when you do shrooms, you look at your hands a lot. So I was kind of checking in with my hands to see, and they were normal, and then all of a sudden I looked and then they shriveled into grandma hands right in front of my eyes, and it was so startling and scary. And I thought, am I a grandma now? Like, I didn't know what was happening. And my grandma now— and then immediately I felt really unsafe and then abandoned.

Yeah. And again, there's like layers of real life. This is why they're therapeutic, is like whatever's thing you really fear, it is going to be the loudest thing that if it goes wrong, that it'll be the first thing that comes out. So it's like in real life, you're so linked to my train and Kristen's train, and there's a certain amount of powerlessness in that. Yeah. And what if we just disappear? And you're so linked to it. And then I just disappeared.

Like, it happened.

I know, it was bad. And I, and I was crying, um, which was, I think, a bummer for everyone. And then, and then you came out. You came out to check on us. So I was like, oh, he's coming back. And then you came back, and then you looked fuzzy. Uh-huh.

You didn't know if I was real. By the way, when I, when I did come outside, you were crying and you were also laughing. You know that? You were like, you were like, you were, you were bouncing back and forth between crying and laughing because Because we were telling the story about Ryan's dad calling.

Uh-huh. And I was crying during that because I was not literally paying attention. I was crying. But then Ryan was like, Monica hates this story. And then I started laughing because obviously I was not thinking about the story, but that was like a funny thing to say. But I was still crying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then when I got very involved, you were, you were thinking you couldn't breathe. Yeah. Yeah. And then you were really scared. And then I was like, okay, we need to reset. Yeah. Let's go out on the street and let's take a little walk. And no one's ever stopped breathing on shrooms. Your body knows how to breathe. You don't have to think about breathing.

Yeah.

And then you came back.

I did.

And it was so impressive because when I saw you, I was like, oh, fuck, man, I told her to do this. It's gone south. Yeah. Generally when it goes south, it stays south.

Yeah. Fuck. Yeah.

I really kind of misled you. And I was very pessimistic and bought bummed. And then 15 minutes into the walk, things started changing, and then you just had this very beautiful ride. It was so sweet.

Well, you, you said, listen, you can choose—

for the next 3 hours, things are going to be fucked up looking.

Yeah. And you get to decide how you see it. So I chose to enjoy it and find it beautiful, and I did it, and it was It was really spectacular. Yeah, it was really cool.

I was so happy on the ride home in the minivan, Chrysler Pacifica. No better vehicle to have someone on shrooms in.

Okay, we don't need—

I'm happy. No, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it. Um, I— you just go, you were right, this isn't to be missed on planet Earth. And I was like, oh, thank God.

Yeah, yeah, I, I feel that.

I feel that. Yeah, it was real Yeah, I was really— I was like, man, I fucking— I would have put that on— like, if, if that hadn't gotten turned around, that would have been as bad as if you didn't end up getting your house after I said you're gonna get that.

So it was, it was that level or worse.

You put a lot of pressure on yourself, which you shouldn't have, but it—

no, it was dumb that I split. But again, you really weren't high at all. Everyone else was a little high and you simply weren't. I was like, I don't—

who knows, maybe it hits so fast, in my opinion. Maybe not, maybe it was more slow than I thought.

Well, that's another thing that just is relevant, is that the initial idea was that people were going to microdose, which I was against. I was like, there's really no point in microdosing, in my opinion. Now, it might be great for people with like severe depression, and they can do it and still work, and I, I have no opinion on that. But yeah, for the experience I wanted you to have, microdosing isn't it. So, right, it started as a microdosing experiment. Yes. Quickly, no one felt anything. So then you guys doubled the microdose dose, which still— I was like, do what I know you should do. Yeah, just like have a cap and a stem and fucking let's see what happens. Yeah. So after— this is what also made it really tricky for me to help navigate you guys, is like, you guys took the one pill, then you 25 minutes later you took another pill, and then, then I go— some people had Then I go get real shrooms and bring— yeah, some—

someone's eating chocolate.

I'm like, who even makes this chocolate? You guys, that could have 10,000 milligrams of psilocybin or one. What do you know? So then real mushrooms were procured in real form that I knew about. Yeah, caps and stems. But at this point, that's now 75 minutes from when you guys took the first. And I'm like, you guys, fuck this whole thing. You should have just done a cap and stem at the beginning like I said, now God knows, I think this would be good for you. But anyways, it was left to me to basically dose you guys. Yeah, yeah. So I picked for everyone what they should have, and for the most part I did a good job.

Yeah, and that was another part I'm remembering now. So, okay, first of all, yes, I went in thinking this is going to be a microdose situation, that maybe some colors are going to be a little brighter than normal. Yeah. So my expectations were not set correctly, and then it did— they didn't catch up to when we—

but you, you kept changing your opinion too. Like, I want more. Like, I feel nothing.

Oh, well, well, I was like, now that I've done this, yeah, I better feel something. Now, I did not want to feel like the— my arm— my hands were grandma hands. Yeah, I just wanted what I was promised, which was that the world was going to be a little brighter and sparklier. Or something, which you had been told from other friends who had microdosed, correct? Yeah. So, so I was like, let's take more, but I was, I was not in the headspace that I was gonna like take a full dose. Yeah, yeah. So anyways, so, um, when you were dosing us, you were, you said to me, I think you should take this, and I said, really? And you didn't like that I said that.

I didn't, because in my defense, I had lost complete control. You, like, you guys had taken the one pill, then the second pill, and And I would— at this point, I was like, if you want me involved, let me do this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I understand your point of view.

Like, I already said don't do that.

Now we're here, and now it's time for you to listen to me.

So I was losing patience. Totally. I understand that. And I was scared. Shocked. Yes, I was scared. And I was just like, are you— like, this seems like a lot. Yeah, yeah. And in my defense, I was right. Like, that wasn't a microdose. Exactly. I was like, this is what I'm doing now? But I was skeptical and you didn't like it, and then I felt like, okay, now he's mad at me about that.

But you weren't the only person arguing with me, if you recall.

Yeah, but you snapped at me.

Of course I did.

I know, exactly. So I—

and you know why? It's actually probably not that we disagreed about that. It's the, I want you to trust me and I'm pissed you don't trust me because I would I know, not take care of you. Although 20 minutes later, I did not take care of you.

Well, that was part of it. That was part of it. So I said, okay, okay, okay. And then I, I did it. And then I was like, are you serious? You got mad at me when I, when I pushed back, and then I said okay, and now you're gone.

Yeah, you had a big grievance. You had a legitimate Oh boy.

But it all worked out. It all worked out. It all worked out. It all worked out. And it was lovely. And I'm very grateful for you, and I'm very grateful you were there. And I would not have been able to turn it around if you weren't there. Oh, well, I'm sorry.

It made me so happy that you guys had such a sweet night. Yeah, it was really funny too, because of the— I'd say the success of the evening. Yeah. And it's kind of, um, dissipated through our friendship circle. A couple different people told me like, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna go with my girlfriend and we're gonna do it. I forget where. And I was like, cool, and your girlfriend's done it? And, and she's like, no. And I'm like, no. I'm like, you can't go to a new— they're gonna go to some place they've never been. No, neither person have done it. I'm like, I'm telling you, you will convince yourself that you've got the one bad batch of mushrooms and you're gonna die. That's what's gonna happen if there's not someone there who's either done it a bunch or sober like I am. Totally. To go every Everything's chill. No one's ever been hurt. Let's start thinking about this. I agree. Yeah, I would not recommend two people on their own experiment. My friend Greg introduced me to it. I'll never forget. What a fucking day. I think I was about 18.

I was out of high school, and I was just, like, living in Detroit and working for my mom. And I worked with this guy Greg, who I fucking love so much. And he had this big jar of shrooms.

He's like, if you ever want to do them—

and he was a normal guy. He wasn't a druggie. Yeah, like if he had been like a druggie type, I wouldn't have trusted him. But he's a pretty straight-laced dude who believed in psilocybin at a young age. Yeah, he came over and 4 of us did them at my mom's house, and then we wandered into Camp Dearborn, which I had been in a million times. I knew it was supposed to look like— yeah, and we wandered around the toboggan hills, and I found a bulldozer that had the key in it, and I drove a bulldozer. Okay, I don't love that part, but it was such an incredible time. It really was. And there's nothing grimy about it. Like, if you do coke, you get fucking gross. If you do ecstasy, you get pretty gross. You do meth, you get gross. A lot of these drugs, they, you know, they bring out the pleasure center of your brain. Yeah, the shrooms is not that at all. Shrooms is— there's nothing grody about it. No. Also, for anyone who would want to sue me in the future because I told you to do it, I'm telling you not to do it.

Don't ever do shrooms. Yeah, I am not condoning anyone to do shrooms. I'm not encouraging anyone to, and I'm not liable. But my experience with shrooms was this and yours was that.

Yeah, just be very clear.

Yes, yes. Some armchair gets looped up and rides a bicycle off a bridge.

No, no, no, we're not, uh, advocating.

No, this is our experience that we're sharing. Yeah, we had a really funny moment where I kept pointing things out to Monica again because I've done them 100 times and I know what's gonna— what are going to look cool on it, what aren't. So I'm like, oh, Monica, look at the wood here, look at the— look at all the grain in the wood. And I'm like, look at that house, you think there's a sitcom going on in there or drama? And then you go, how do you know that? Are you on it? Are you making me think that? Or do I think that? And you also— like, it was so funny.

And then I thought you weren't real because I thought maybe you were just in my brain somehow.

Then you were out on your own walk.

Yeah, I did, because I was like, oh my God, you know everything. Everything I'm thinking. So, which can't be, you must be in my brain, which means you're not real. That was another big takeaway, was which, you know, I think we know this in life, but it was so apparent how affected we are by other people and other people's energy. So when I say I bummed everyone out, I think that's for real. Like, I'm really glad you pulled me out quick because everyone probably would have started getting really sad, really quick. Yeah, because your energy is so infectious. And if you point something out and, and it looks weird, like a grandma hand— yeah, when I saw it first, I was like— and one of the other participants— yes— was like, I know, I know, I know. Yeah. And then we both were kind of feeding off of like, oh, that, that got really scary real quick. Okay, okay. Yeah. Yeah, but then later when another participant was looking at hands, she was like, isn't it cool? Yeah.

And then I was like, it is cool to look down at your own hands that you've been staring at your whole lifetime and for them to be different is awesome.

It is. But you can choose. You either can see it— look, both things are true. It is scary, uh-huh, to see something you know to be real and substantial in front of you, not be that. Yeah. And it's also cool. So whatever you say can have such a big impact on the people around you. And that's just like so true about life. Oh yeah. Your energy and what you say.

But again, it, it does go to that thing I was saying where it's kind of eroding these walls between us where it's like, it is so transmissible. Yeah. Like love's more transmissible. Yeah. Fear's more transmissible. It's all more transmissible.

But the thing is, I don't know that it's more. I think it's the same amount as what we're doing day to day. We're just not as aware of it. Our energy does that on a daily basis.

I don't agree though, because the participant you're talking about, in general life, that person could make an observation, you would go, well, yeah, of course she sees it that way, because she's this, she's this thing, she's that thing, she's this thing, but I'm this thing, that thing, and this this thing, so it's not the same for me. Like, of course that guy thinks that. I always do this. Like, anytime I have a disagreement with someone's perspective, I immediately try to figure out why their perspective's different. I don't assume that their perspective is correct. That's true. I think of the reasons why we have different one. But you can really share perspective in a way on shrooms that it's hard to share.

I guess I mainly mean more energy-wise. Like, if people are happy, you can, you can borrow that energy. But if someone is sad around you, that has an impact. Whether you, you can logically be like, that's separate from me, it is seeping in. Oh yeah.

Well, anyone who has a partner who has depression has experienced that.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's, it, again, social responsibility. You got to take care of yourself. Yourself so that you can take care of people around you. Yeah.

When are you gonna do it again?

Not in a rush to do it again. It was wonderful, but I definitely don't feel like I gotta do that next weekend again.

That's an— yeah, that's the thing I'm talking— it's not like getting drunk was like, that was fun, I want to get fucked up tonight. Yeah, there's something— it's, we— it's a little exhausting. Yeah. Like the next couple of days you're aware that you went through this thing. Yeah, for Sure, in a nice way though, in this like you're tapped into some emotion. Yeah, that's sweet. Yes. And you can feel it, and you're not anxious to get back in the fire because you're processing, right? I'm trying to understand it all, right? Don't do it. Don't do it. Don't do it. Drugs, don't do them.

Okay, love you.