Transcript of Eva Benefield (on surviving the Black Swan Murder)

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert, Experts on Expert. I'm Dan Shephard. I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Hi.

Today we have Eva Benefield on, and she is a true crime survivor, author, influencer, and founder of Ghost Cowboy Apparel. She has a new memoir out called Ghost Girl: Surviving the Black Swan Murder. So Eva is the daughter of the victim of the Black Swan Murder.

This is a wild story.

A wild— the wildness had begun long before the official wildness.

Yeah. So you get to hear all about it.

She's been through everything. Please enjoy Eva Benefield.

Thank you.

I'm Dax.

Hi, Dax.

How are you?

Good. How are you? Hi.

Hi. Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Sorry, I know you were early. Sorry we made you wait.

I was. Well, I was like early once today. I was late to the airport this morning.

Oh no.

My layover was 10 minutes.

Oh no.

I don't know how it happened. It said 53 minutes. I was like, okay, I have time. Ugh. Was it like 8?

It was so stressful.

I wasn't stressed out until I realized that we were boarding when I got there. And then I was like, well, don't need to be stressed anymore.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh geez.

Yeah.

I woke up late this morning and New York wasn't bad. LaGuardia wasn't bad. And then I think I flew into LAX maybe once before.

Oh really?

Yeah. Cause I used to go to San Diego a lot, but I haven't really spent a lot of time here.

Are you gonna be here for a little bit? No.

Oh, go back to Charleston tomorrow.

You don't get to play.

What did you, did I miss? Did you fly in today?

I flew in today from New York. I flew into New York yesterday.

Okay. You flew Charleston, New York yesterday.

Charleston, New York, here, Charleston. What time did you take off? I took off at 5, no, we boarded at 5:50.

Oh, New York.

Oh, this is miserable. Do you feel terrible?

So I woke up at 4:15 yesterday to get to the airport to go to New York.

Okay.

I got to bed at like 10:30 last night, but I woke up at 4:15 and I was like, I have 20 more minutes. I'm just gonna sleep until, you know, the driver texts me.

Uh-huh.

Did not. It was 5:15. 'Cause I was waking up all night like, oh my God, I have to go. Oh my God, I have to go.

Yeah.

I hate that feeling.

Yeah.

Ugh.

And you recently slept in past jury duty too.

That was a couple years ago. So you did your research. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you kind of have a pattern of— Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Actually, no, I don't. I wake up at 5 or 6 every day.

What? You do?

My Hatch alarm clock. Yeah.

Oh, and it like rises slightly.

What's a Hatch alarm clock?

Oh, it's life-changing.

Tell me about it. Let's do an ad for them right now.

Yes, I would love that. It's just an alarm clock and it's a sound machine too, 'cause I love my rainstorm. And then it lights up over time over the course of like 10 or 15 minutes and it gets brighter and brighter and the music gets louder and louder and then you wake up.

Gently, a gentle wake up.

Well, my fear would be, it would be the proverbial frog in hot water being brought to a boil. You know that old adage?

Yeah.

That if you slowly and incrementally raise the loudness, I might just get used to it as I was sleeping. Does that make sense?

Yeah.

As opposed to being like hit and shaken outta—

I know, but it's bad for your system to get like woke up.

Yeah, I like it.

I'm scared. You know, wake up with some cortisol.

Sometimes now I wake up before it starts really going off. Oh, you do?

Do you pick a song or is it a sound you wake up to?

It's a sound. I have retro alarm clock.

Oh, nice.

Oh, okay. So it is a little—

Yeah, yeah.

It'll get your attention.

It's like, "Eva." Right?

Yes. Eva.

I'm dyslexic, so I'm like, "Yeah, that's definitely Eva." But then I'm like, also, who knows?

Ava?

I just don't know.

I get all variations.

And when I see Eva, I hear, "Eva!" Oh, did you like that?

Oh, I bet you get that a lot.

That was a big elementary school thing.

Did people plague you on the playground? With Saint Eva like that?

Oh yeah. They did. Yeah.

This is like Monica was trying to hide her Indian-ness and then Bend It Like Beckham came out, which you're too young to know about, but it was a huge movie about a young Indian girl in England learning to play soccer.

Playing soccer. And it really exposed me because it was like, oh, she looks like that girl, so she must be Indian.

She must be a great soccer player.

Yeah, duh. Obviously.

So you grew up in Charleston. Yes. You were born in 2001?

Yes.

The book, one of the characters is kind of the Lowcountry is what we call it. Yeah.

Yeah.

Explain the Lowcountry to us.

Have y'all ever been there or anywhere in the Lowcountry?

I've been to Charleston so, so long ago, but yes, I've been there once and it feels like you're time traveling. It's like the most charming.

It does. It's kind of like the beach, but we have the beach there too, but it's marsh, it's not rocks. And the only rocks we have are the jetties and that's for sediment moving and stuff. And then you smell pluff mud at low tide. You can hear little fiddler crabs rolling around everywhere.

Wow.

And you'll see Mud minnows. And it's just serene and quiet and peaceful and hot and humid. And it's beautiful.

And historic as hell. It's probably like among the oldest cities still thriving.

Oh yeah.

Is it Isle of Palms?

Isle of Palms.

Is that near? Yeah. Is that near it?

Yeah. That's where I live.

Oh, that's where you live.

You live there. Yeah. Yeah. Where does Danny McBride live?

So he lives on Sullivan's. My favorite restaurant's on Sullivan's. He also frequents there. Oh, so I'm seeing him all the time.

Is it exciting?

Kind of.

I mean, everybody that's local is like, oh, Stanny.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Do you know Bev and Bob Miller?

No.

What if you knew them? That would be so cool. I mean, they live in Isle of Palm. I feel like I'm saying it wrong.

Welcome to my world.

I tell you every time I say something, every time you say a word, you can say IOP and I'll know the rest of it.

IOP.

Okay, perfect. Yes. That's one of my best friends growing up parents and they moved there 10 years ago. They love it so much.

I'm sure if I was running around, if you showed me a picture, I would see them.

Yeah.

Cause I feel small, right?

It's small and I'm an avid runner. So I will run into people in like Mount Pleasant or downtown, and if I talk to them, I'm like, oh yeah, I live in Isle of Palms. They're like, oh my God, I, I've seen you running out there. Yeah, that's me probably.

You're like the local Forrest Gump.

I think so. Yeah.

So you have a pretty idyllic childhood at the start.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Tell me about your relationship with mom and dad. I know they differ, but yeah, just tell me about that a little bit.

Brought up like any other Southern household. It was loving. It was, my mom was just a sweetheart and gentle and kind. Wouldn't hurt a fly. And she talked a lot. My dad was very quiet, very chill. So she was talking all the time, and he would just let Renee talk. Church every Sunday, and just— you can't complain.

Brothers and sisters?

Two half-brothers.

Okay.

So they're 14 and 11 years older than me on my mom's side.

Got it.

So she had already had a marriage?

Yes.

Again, I didn't grow up in the South. I grew up in the heathenist North. Divorce was like, who wasn't? Was that an issue?

I think so. My mom's side of the family didn't really like the idea of it because divorce is just it's just not, especially when you're a very avid churchgoer, it's kind of frowned upon. And I also still to this day don't really know all of the things about that marriage, about what they thought of my dad. I also don't get to see them very often. They're upstate South Carolina. But I also, I think it's just been kind of hush-hush. Nobody wants to talk about it. So it's just the elephant in the room sometimes.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you were so young when she died that I'd imagine too, there would've been many, many conversations. About her previous life, in her opinion, when you were old enough to, like, understand all those details.

Right.

But also in the South, you don't really talk about your dirty laundry. I'm from Georgia. There's just a lot of, like, we're sweeping that under the rug and not really— back then anyway.

It's still now. When I was young, my mom, she was very picky about the moms that she would hang out with. And I would always ask why, because I would have friends and she really wouldn't hang out with their moms. She was like, you'll get to an age where you'll understand. And One day I got to the age where I understand. It's like once everything happened with my dad, I could hear the parents talking. I could understand and pick up on, especially in Charleston, South Carolina, it's a little pretentious sometimes. Yeah, totally. We can sweep things under the rug very easily if we have to.

Yeah.

Okay, so tell me about the morning when you're 14, you're fixing to go to school and you and mom have a little disagreement. Tell me about that morning.

So I was a brat.

Okay.

As we all are. Yeah, I mean, I was 14. I was moody. My dad was out of town. My mom was taking me to school. She was a talker and I always did not wanna talk. So we were in the car and I just was kind of being a brat and she dropped me off and I got outta the car and she was like, "Love you." And I slammed the door and I walked inside. And I also now realize I had very bad anxiety going to school. I didn't know that it was anxiety until later, but every morning it was like a stomachache and kind of shaky. And I didn't realize until now, I'm like, oh, I was freaking out a little bit every day before school. So I was just kind of in my own little world, slammed the door, went to school. That was that.

What was happening at school, do you suppose, that was giving you anxiety?

So I had just switched from a smaller school to, it's the second largest school in South Carolina.

Oh wow.

So it was a big culture shock. I was private up until middle school. I went into a smaller public school for middle school, but it was still just a huge change seeing all of that. So I think it was that a little bit that just kind of threw me for a loop every day.

Yeah. Humongous high school. Yeah, that is scary. So after school, you're expecting Mom to pick you up. That was the routine.

And she did not answer her phone. I was waiting at the carpool line, and she has a tendency to be late. She could have been late to her own funeral and it would have been normal. So I was like, okay, I'm going to give her some grace. But then 30 minutes went by and still nothing. I tried calling her, I tried texting her, and just nothing.

At no moment were you like, oh, I slammed the door, she's teaching me a lesson? Was there any part of your brain that was like, oh, maybe she didn't pick me up on purpose?

No, my My mom was never one to hold a grudge. I probably had texted her earlier that day. I know I was texting in the group chat with her and my dad first period that day, so I didn't think she was holding anything against me for that moment, right?

Yeah.

So how did you get yourself home?

A friend from the private school, she switched to that school too. I was like, hey, can you give me a ride home? Because my mom's nowhere to be found. So her and her mom took me home.

And when do you start getting nervous when you get home?

I show up to the front door cuz I didn't have my key, knocked on the door, she didn't answer. And every spring and every fall, she loved fashion. She had so many clothes. She had two of the same item in almost every single thing. Some with tags on it still. Yeah. Like a problem.

Was her name Monica Padman?

Yeah, exactly.

No, she switched her closet out. She had a huge walk-in closet and then she'd put everything in tubs and, and she would be up until 2, 3 in the morning.

Yeah.

Switching her closet out. Yeah. It's, it's almost wintertime. We gotta get the fur out, you know? Oh yeah. So, I was like, okay, maybe she's just sleeping because she's not answering. And I went, knocked on the door, didn't hear anything back. And at that point, my friend's mom was like, hey, let's just go get some dinner and then come back. So we went to Chick-fil-A, sat down, got some dinner.

Wow, you left. Mm-hmm.

Went back, still nothing. And the house— their room was to the left of the front door behind some bushes. So I went and I crawled into the bushes, and their lights were off, but also still not that unnormal because my mom hated overhead lights. She liked natural lights. So I was like, maybe it's getting darker out, so she just wants to circadian rhythm. And I saw kind of a silhouette, and I didn't really want to make anything out of that, but I went to my friend's mom and I was like, hey, something's wrong. I think we need to get in the house. I mean, it was just us three girls, so we went across the street to the neighbor, and the neighbor, he and his wife came out, and he's huge, tall dude, and went and just busted the door down.

Are you first to go in? I'd imagine it's your house.

I went in briefly and I kind of looked and I went back out and my neighbor went back in. My dog Sully, he was the sweetest golden retriever you'll ever meet in your entire life, was mean. He was being mean to my neighbor. So he came out and said, hey Eva, you need to come get Sully. He'll bite me.

Oh.

And so I went and I got Sully and that's when I saw my mom. So I took Sully out and my neighbor, I waited a few minutes. My neighbor came back out and just shook his head. At my friend's mom and his wife. And so that's when I kind of knew, okay, something happened. Something's not good.

Oh no.

How sweet of Sully though, that he was like, she can't protect herself right now. I gotta keep everyone away from her.

I've never seen him like that. And to this day, he's never, never been like that again. Yeah.

So what is it like to find mom? That is terrifying. Is your first hope like, we just need to get her to a hospital?

Did you like run in when they were shaking their head?

No, I didn't wanna see that. I just knew, you know, at that point she hadn't answered anything. If she was even mildly unconscious, she probably would've came to eventually.

Oh, right, right.

I had a gut feeling and I knew, so I just kind of got up because instinctually I think everybody started calling my sister-in-law and 911.

Yeah.

And everything. I was like, I know what's about to happen. I don't wanna see the gurney. I'm gonna go to the other house.

Yeah.

Yeah. So went across the street, sat down.

Oh, had she had any health scares prior to that?

No. You know how greens powders are a big thing now?

Yeah.

She was on that in the '90s. Like, she was healthy, always working out, always going on runs and walks, drinking her protein shakes, you know, like the Quest chips. She was having a special order those from the old brand that used to own it.

Oh my gosh, she was into Quest chips back then?

Yeah, I remember I was like 5 or 6, she was going on advicare.com and getting Quest chips.

Advocate.

Oh, wow.

Wow. Yeah. Always very, very healthy.

Yeah. Crazy unexpected.

So that was just the furthest thing from what I thought happened.

And she had 75% blockage in an artery. Is that the conclusion?

Yeah.

So she had a heart attack and died.

Yep.

And you're 14 and you're at a new school and your dad's out of town. How long does it take for him to get home?

He got home, it was middle of the night that night.

It was the same day.

Yeah. My sister-in-law and my mom's ex-husband came to pick me up. And so we went over to my brother's house and And I did my homework and went to bed. And then my dad woke me up probably 2 or 3 in the morning.

Were you in a state of shock at that moment?

I think so.

For sure.

I don't think I really ever had like a full grief moment. I think that I was just so shocked and I was outta school for 3 days. That was a Wednesday. I was out Thursday, Friday, went back Monday.

Wow.

Just tried to get back to normal.

And were people urging you not to do that?

Not really. My dad and my brother and my sister-in-law were just kind of like, do what you wanna do.

Whatever you do. Yeah.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. And how was your dad taking it?

He, I think, held it together for me. I didn't see him really break down until her funeral, which was a couple days later, but that was the only time I saw him break down. And he would console me when I came to him about it and just say, I miss her too. I don't think that he wanted to show me that he was mourning, 'cause I think he wanted to stay strong.

Yeah.

How did you and Dad's relationship evolve after?

So we were already pretty close. I was always kind of tagging along to Lowe's and helping with house projects and doing whatever, and we just got even closer. That was like 9 months of pure fun. He kind of did whatever I wanted to do.

Yeah, you kind of have leverage at that point.

Yeah, so I mean, I remember I'd been begging to go to San Diego for so long, and I think a month after that he was like, so guess what, we're going to San Diego. Yeah, no way.

It's like anything I can do to help cheer her up, right?

Or, and also just let's live life.

Were you carrying any guilt over your last exchange?

That weighed on me for a little bit. And I mean, the more I talked to my dad about it too, cuz he knew that was something I can't keep a secret, I can't tell a lie. So I just immediately went to him, I was like, this is the last interaction we had. And he was like, you know that that is not what your mom would remember you by, or you should remember your mom by. That meant nothing to her.

Yeah. And as a parent of teenage kids, that's standard biz.

Yeah.

They're just randomly like terrible to you for no reason.

It's just the way—

yeah, quickly go like, did I— and you're like, no, I didn't do shit. This is just happening. Yeah. When did the Bible verses every morning start?

I think it was towards the end of my high school career because I could drive. I was out of the house a lot. He mentioned it a couple times that it hurt him a little bit when I got my first car and could get outta the house because I was never around anymore. That was something that he brought up in two different conversations we had about Ashley, which was like, you're never home anymore. I miss you. You know, as soon as I gave you your car, you were just gone.

Yeah.

And so I think that was kind of his way of connecting. Yeah. After that.

Well, sorry, what is the Bible verse? What? I don't know. What is that? You just did it every morning for years?

Every morning he sent her a Bible verse. She always woke up to a Bible verse.

Oh yeah.

For years.

That's lovely. Okay.

Yeah. Which later comes into play.

Okay.

Got it.

Yeah.

It's a circle moment.

Yeah. So during that 9 months after your mother died, you did specifically ask him, do you think you'll ever remarry?

I asked him the night that he came home after my mom died.

Wow.

That was like my first question. You know, he gave me the whole spiel of like, I've seen a lot of death and I'm here for you and we'll get through this together. And then I asked, are you going to get remarried and have kids? And he said, no. I mean, it was like probably 3 in the morning. He had just flown in from Texas and he was like, I don't think so, no.

Do you understand what his job was? He was a consultant for defense contractors. Do you know, like, what was—

Yes, kind of.

Kind of?

I think.

Yeah, it seems like an abstract job to have your hands around as a kid.

He had some crazy technology. He was a brain guy. Encryption was his forte. So he was doing a lot of encrypting on some crazy government projects and kind of consulting the military and just anything that needed protecting. He'd have, like, prototypes of stuff. I'd go to his office, and I was 10. I didn't really know what I was looking at, but I remember some of it. I can't even wrap my head around it now.

So 9 months later, he's in Florida, right? Where he meets Ashley.

Yes. Yeah, they did meet.

He was at a dinner or something.

Yeah. Something in Palm Springs.

Palm Beach.

Palm Beach. Is that it?

Palm Springs is here.

Palm Springs is here. Okay.

But she was working for the Trump campaign.

Yeah.

So definitely she was probably in Palm— or not definitely, she was probably in Palm Beach.

That was definitely it.

Okay. So they met. Now this is crazy, right? This little chunk is wild.

Yeah.

They met and then 13 days later they got married.

Yeah.

And she's 24 and he's 54.

Yep.

And you are 15?

15.

Okay.

Explain the first time you are made aware of, of Ashley.

So we were in the car, he was picking me up from school because I couldn't drive yet. I was 15. And so he picked me up and he always had his conference calls on speakerphone. And he picked me up from school. We were on the way home, conference call on the speakerphone, and I hear them talking about this conference that they were gonna have the next weekend in North Carolina. And they said, Doug, are you gonna bring your girlfriend?

Oh boy.

And I was 15. So that week or two prior, I had seen him kind of at night in bed on his phone, like sending a heart emoji or, you know, like a kissy face.

Oh.

So I just kind of put two and two together and I was real quiet at first when he got off and he said, what's wrong, Eva? I said, what are they talking about your girlfriend? He said, oh, they got me confused with another guy. Me. I said, well, I saw you texting a heart emoji to someone last night. He was like, it's not my girlfriend, we're just friends. I said, well, have y'all gone out to dinner? And he was like, yeah. And I said, well, have you kissed? And he was like, yeah. I said, so you're dating?

Yeah, you're like, so that's more than a friend.

So that's exactly what they said on the phone.

Yeah. So I was like, okay. At that point I didn't really know what to say. I was just like, all right, I trust you if this is making you happy. Right.

Because you don't have any idea she's 24. You don't have any idea anything about her, right? No clue. Kids have varying opinions, right? I've talked about this with my own daughters, like, okay, so if I die, is Mom allowed to remarry? Funnily enough, the verdict was Mom can remarry, but I can't.

Okay. Yeah.

Okay.

So I don't know why it's that way, but at any rate, also between the two of them, there's a much different reaction to that.

Right.

So I'm wondering, would it have been your wish that your dad never dated again, or were you like, he needs a date and not be lonely?

I don't even know where I stood at that point. I feel like I was annoyed, but I didn't think that it would go any further than that. One second he's single, next second he has a girlfriend. It wasn't introduced in any sort of slow way, like, you know, start bringing her over and this is a friend, and then it was just kind of like, boom, we're dating. I think that if it had been that way, I would have been a little more pushing against it, like, hey, no, this isn't cool. Yeah, but just because I had no choice but to kind of react and be Oh, okay. I didn't get a chance.

Well, in none of the scenarios I modeled out with my own children was anyone allowed to date within 9 months. I think you, even with mom being allowed to remarry, it was like after X amount of years.

I didn't even register that she was dead yet. So I was just kind of like, right.

Exactly.

That's a lot.

Yeah. You're dealing with such upheaval.

This is interesting. I have a friend who has been through a similar thing. Her mother died and then her father remarried. Remarried. Very, very quickly to also kind of like a pretty young and very fast sort of random.

Right.

It's more common than you would think. I've heard a lot of stories since then and people be like, yeah, men just remarry a lot faster.

They can't handle it.

Yeah. Yeah. What's funny is as I'm learning this story, 'cause by the way, I didn't follow any of this, right? Like I wasn't aware of the Black Swan murder.

Okay. Yeah. I should've been blind.

Yeah. I don't watch any of those shows. I don't watch 48 Hours. Now I've seen 48 Hours researching you, but I had no clue that that had happened. So when I'm I'm first finding out that your dad married this woman 13 days later, I'm going, I need an explanation, right? My conclusion— tell me if I'm completely off base— which is like, she's sending him naked photos and stuff, she's very sexually engaged, and he's very religious, and he can't have sex with her if they're not married. So literally this thing is like fast-passed. Yeah, just to have sex.

Well, so here's also something: I don't think that she was as religious as she made out to be to my dad. I think that she just was like, if that's it's going to take, then I'll get married right then and there, you know? Like, in her head, she wasn't saved, but outwardly she was like, yeah, I'm a Christian too, so we have to.

Oh geez.

Well, it only worked to her benefit to fast-pass it, which again, I try to resist my poking at religion, but therein lies one of my issues. Like, what are we talking about? You got to get married and you got to make some crazy decision to appease—

when people do it that fast, because I have friends that are getting married now, I'm like, we're 25, slow down.

There's time, there's time.

You don't know these people. Exactly.

Yeah. You don't even know you yet. Really? Yeah.

You know, our brains are just starting to develop. Exactly.

When did you meet her? The next day after the wedding. Uh, the secret wedding.

Wait.

Yeah. So I, I wasn't even at the secret wedding. They were dating and then the next day they were still dating, but I met her and then the next day to my knowledge they were married. So I, it was like 3 days. Yeah. You know, I got the introduction and then the next day. Yeah.

Yeah. Explain the introduction. I think you said, but you anticipated related them going like, okay, so we're gonna be dating. And then your worst case scenario is like, God, did he propose to her?

Yeah. So the next day he was like, actually, she's in town, let's go pick her up from the airport. I said, okay. So I went and got in the truck and we went and picked her up from the airport, and he was just kind of making the small talk for us. He was like, she's a ballerina and teaches children, and she's done this and done that. I was like, okay, cool.

Were you shocked by the fact that she was 9 years older I didn't know the exact age.

It just kind of went over my head at that point. I don't really remember the rest of that day. I know it was just kind of small talk and I think they went and did their own thing and I went and hung out with my friends. The next day I was getting ready to go to my friend's house and my dad came upstairs and he was like, you need to come downstairs and we need to have a family chat. And it struck me a little weird that he said family chat.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Why don't you get the non-family member outta here and we'll have a little chat.

Exactly.

Oh, you mean, you mean me and you? Yeah, we can do that.

Totally. And he said, no, I think like, We all need to go downstairs and talk. And I said, I don't have anything to say to her. Y'all are dating. Good for you. Yeah. The only thing that I would go and sit downstairs for right now with her is if you were gonna say you want to propose. And those words came outta my mouth. And then the next second he said, we're married. So I wasn't legally allowed to drive my car without an adult with a full license yet. So I got in the front seat, made them both get— it was a two-door Jeep Wrangler. So they had to like go crawl into the back seat.

Oh my God.

And they sat in silence like this. And I was angrily driving over to my friend's friend's house. They took my car and I was just at my friend's house.

Oh my God, this is a lot to process. Had your dad displayed any previous kind of rash, impulsive decisions, or is this completely out of character?

That was so out of character. I mean, he was usually very slow and meticulous and thought about everything.

He's into encryption, for Christ's sake.

Yeah, the biggest life lesson I learned up until that point was measure twice, cut once from him, because I was always doing home projects. So he was always very meticulous about decision-making.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Simultaneous to this, this is also interesting. Your friend moves into your house. Yes. Tell me about that.

So that was in the fall, right when school started, when I found out about Ashley and my dad. She moved in that December, right after Christmas. I was at a lacrosse kind of showcase thing up in North Carolina, and my dad and Ashley were there. We all went together, and I was in the middle of a game, I had stepped out off the field and I saw that she had texted. She was like a friend that I had in school, but never outta school. That was freshman year. So we were in sophomore year now and we were still in touch, but never really hung out. And she had called me a bunch of times and texted me. I called her back and she said, hey, this is really last minute and random, but I need somewhere to stay. Can I stay with you? And I said, yeah, sure, why not? So I asked my dad and my dad was like, I mean, we have 3 extra bedrooms upstairs. Y'all have at it. So we went and picked her up. She moved in.

Wow.

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Philip.

After the kind of shell-shockness wore off, what was your assessment of Ashley, your new stepmother? What were your first impressions of her?

I could tell she was kind of fake nice and not smart. It was kind of like talking to an airhead all the time. I picked up on it as time went on and I got older as well, that she was just kind of acting super smart, but you could tell she just didn't know anything about anything.

And you were feeling the manipulativeness?

Yes, that was pretty quick. I would say that I started realizing I didn't have her way, so she would go to my dad and my dad would be like, well, you got to do this because Ashley, you know.

And your dad wanted her to step in and be a motherly figure because you didn't have one anymore, right? But she wasn't a good match for that role, right? I mean, again, she's 9 years old.

Exactly.

She was 8 years older. Both my brothers are married and I'm very close with my sister-in-law, my oldest brother's wife. She had moved in right after my mom passed to kind of help with the house stuff. And my dad was out of town a lot, still traveling. So it was me and Bev. And, you know, she taught me everything that I needed to know at that point in my life. And I was like, you know, I'm good. I don't need another 20-something-year-old. I have Beverly. So I was nice to Ashley. But as soon as she started to put her foot down about certain things and say, well, no, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna tell your dad, or you have to do this, or I'm gonna take your car away. The first time she threatened the car, that pissed me off. Yeah. I was like, no, we're not doing that.

And were you afraid of confrontation or no?

Not really.

Okay. So you would fight back in those moments?

Kind of. I'm not a confrontational person, but I will get my punches in when I can, you know?

Yeah.

So you're not a pushover. Yeah. So if she said something, I'd try to be polite about it at least until if she kept pushing, that's when I'd I'd just kind of be like, no, I'm not doing that. Yeah.

Yeah. And as this wild experiment is running its course, what are you noticing in the nature of their relationship?

Super all over each other, lovey-dovey at first, very much PDA all the time. It was disgusting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

As time went on, it was Ashley just bitching about something constantly and my dad just kind of sitting there and taking it and listening. Eva said this or somebody said this. And my dad was quiet and chill, so he'd just kind of take it and not say anything.

He's like, get me back to my encryption.

Yeah, exactly. I'm back to my office. That's why he's out of town all the time.

Yeah.

Then she started going with him.

What was the event that led to him firing the gun in the house?

I wasn't home. Neither was my friend that moved in with us. I think what had happened was she was upset about something. And I mean, when she got upset about something, she was in his ear. Just nonstop. And I think at that point, from my understanding, it was out on the counter or he was cleaning it or something and she just would not stop. And he got frustrated and just shot it up into the roof. And that shut her up.

Part of the thing they bonded over, Monica, when they first met is they both love guns. She had like multiple guns on her the night they met.

We went to Publix one time, just me and her, and she made a comment about a gun and I was like, are you packing? And she pulled up her shirt and showed me. I said, we are in public. Yeah. In Mount Pleasant, South Carolina. There's nothing here that's gonna harm us. Yeah. It was just kind of a weird flex. I think she thought it was cool.

Like tough or something.

Well, also she's campaigning for Trump.

You're right.

She's really kind of the prototypical.

Yeah.

She's very typical.

She's checking all the boxes.

Trump girl.

Yeah.

Yeah. Loves guns, has multiple guns on her at 24.

Oh boy. Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Oh God. I would of course love to know her entire childhood, how we end up as her. I know, it's so tempting the whole time I'm learning about her to really assign her a lot of different personality disorders I know about. She feels very, very borderline personality.

I think it was either that or histrionic.

Yeah, she—

it was whatever Amber Heard has. It was the same is what we discovered, cuz she either thought your dad was a savior or that he was evil, like evil killer out to get us all.

Yeah, those were the two options on the table. He's everything or he's nothing. Okay, so in '17, so at this point they would have been together for, I guess, a year and a half or something.

Yeah, something like that.

She has to have a ballet studio, right? Which, again, this feels very transparent. I hate to sound so judgmental, but it's like she wanted to open an international ballet company that would be really inclusive, meaning it would have all these people that normally wouldn't have gotten taken to a ballet company, i.e., she never got to. You know, it sounds like she's trying I'm gonna create a version where I would've been there.

Yeah, that was exactly it. She wanted that. I think she didn't make the cut for ballet.

Yeah.

And so she wanted this ballet company and my dad wanted to give her the entire world on a silver platter, was like, okay, let's make it happen. And he was smart and he knew how to pull together investors and make things happen fast. So that's what he did.

Wow.

Yeah.

So they start this ballet company and lots of ballerinas fly from all over the world to come audition and become members of this company.

Of this, and she's like running out.

Yeah, but she mostly doesn't even show up.

She was very there the first few months. It was towards the end when she wasn't showing up as much anymore after they announced the pregnancy. So that's when she was starting to have a bad pregnancy, and so she wasn't showing up to the ballet things anymore. Another thing that I think happened is some of the investors and my dad probably— and I also, you have to take this with a grain of salt because I tried to stay out of it as much as possible, sure, but from my my dad and the investors realized, "Hey, she kind of acted like she could run this entire thing, but she can't. Let's pull somebody down from New York that actually knows what the hell she's doing." Yeah. So they pulled down this woman who started running things appropriately and trying to get things pulled together more properly than she was. And I think that she did not like the power being taken away from her. So she started acting out and that's when she just vowed herself herself.

At this moment, and you're getting older and wiser and more savvy, right? Are you assessing this as like, oh yeah, this is just a gold digger using my dad to execute all of her dreams?

Yeah, kinda. I mean, there was a day that my dad came home with a duffel bag of cash and I just kind of looked at it and I asked him, I was like, what's that? Where'd you get that? And he was like, this is nothing. He didn't say much about it. It's for the ballet. I said, okay. And then he said, just don't take Snapchats of it and show your friends. We don't want people knowing this is in the house right now.

Oh geez.

Yeah.

I said, okay.

You're like, what?

Yeah.

Were you like, get me outta here. It's time for me to be outta here.

I was just so enthralled in my own things.

Like, yeah. Yeah.

I just was kind of letting them do whatever they wanted to do.

Mm-hmm.

And then I was trying to make it through high school.

Yeah.

And do you think you were running as fast as you could a little bit to stay focused on things that wouldn't have you thinking about the fact that your mom died?

Yeah. I was always out hanging out with friends or at lacrosse practice or just doing anything that I could to get away. I started going to the gym every morning before school. School and then had lacrosse practice after school, and it was always—

yeah, you didn't want to be there.

It's funny and sad that your dad would accuse you of kind of deserting him when in fact he brought a force into your house that would make you leave. No one's going to hang around, sit around a table and act like this is the dream family scenario.

Yeah, and I was holding a grudge against my dad for so long about that, and he would always deny, deny, deny, be like, well, you left me, or you're resenting my my wife. So he used that line a couple times. Well, you're resenting my life, so, you know, why should we do this or be nice to you or whatever? Not that my dad was ever mean, but why should she be nice to you if you're resenting her? Until it was after she left that I think he had a come-to moment and was like, oh, Eva, that must have really hurt. Because he eventually came to apologize, and that's all I was looking for. Yeah, it was some sort of apology.

He got sucked into this vortex at a very vulnerable time for him as well. So, like, ugh.

It's another high horse I'm tempted to sit on, which is like, I watched the Anthony Bourdain documentary, and it's so heartbreaking.

Yeah.

And yeah, he falls in love with this really young woman. He gets really insecure. It's a very bizarre relationship. I've seen so many men, older men, who get with young women, and they can't handle it.

Yeah.

It's not good for them.

It's just like a distraction, the honeymoon stage. And, you know, I hear and he was like, this is great, nothing's wrong.

She's hot.

And then he's in too deep and he can't get out.

Yeah, he owns a fucking ballerina company all of a sudden.

Right. Yeah. Like, what the hell?

Yeah.

So the pregnancy, did they wait a while to tell you about that? Or how do you learn that she's pregnant? And I can't imagine you are excited about that.

Yeah.

Because that means she's around permanently in some sense.

Yeah. So me and my friend that had moved in were sitting in my bed and they came up into my room and they were like, Hey, we have an announcement. And my dad framed it like, you are gonna have a baby sister and y'all are gonna share birthdays. 'Cause her due date was right around my birthday. That was the worst way to tell her. Who?

That mean girl.

That was so male of him. He didn't realize like, no, I already feel less important 'cause this is right now. My birthday is not my birthday.

Yeah.

This is great news.

Oh God, what was the worst thing you could say? And we're naming her Eva, and you're going away.

And actually, you're being sent off. You don't exist anymore.

You don't need this anymore. So after she got pregnant, this kind of escalates the craziness. Yeah, getting pregnant.

Mhm.

I guess in order, I think what seems most relevant plot-wise is she moves back to Florida with her mom at some point. How do we go from getting pregnant, we have an announcement, to her moving down?

She was going back and forth a little bit more just because she was having a bad pregnancy pregnancy. And then eventually one day I asked, where's Ashley? And my dad said, oh, she's having a really bad pregnancy. We decided that it's best for her to be taken care of by her mom because my dad was traveling so much. So she was just down there in Florida and that was that. And then I came home one day from school and her car was gone and all of her weird little hot glue seashell pictures off the walls were gone and a note was on the bed.

And what did the note say?

I have no idea. I just remember my dad reading it and looking crushed and just going silent. I actually left the house when I found all of that, and I was going over to my sister-in-law's house because I was like, I don't want to be around that. And she said, no, turn around, go be with your dad. So I went, I turned around, and he just— he went very quiet.

Were you like, what happened?

I don't even remember if words were exchanged other than, she's gone, or she left me.

Oh Jesus.

Yeah.

So at this point, I'll add that the ballet company now gets shut down. It costs Doug like 100 grand.

Yeah, something crazy. Just gone.

She now lives with Mom.

And she's pregnant still.

Yeah, she's pregnant. And now she starts this narrative that she's pretty convinced Doug killed Eva's mom.

Yes.

Oh my God.

Yeah. She did that along with, "He's out to kill me and her, and he's beating me, and he's beating her, and poisoning me." Yeah.

He's like figured out in her mind that he had poisoned Eva's mom. And so, oh, now he's poisoning me.

She was pulling medical records from my mom. She was trying to get the grave dug up.

No.

Yeah. I didn't know that again until after.

Whoa.

But I knew about the poison stuff. It was like a really weird thing while she lived with me was they were obsessed with teas. We had a tea drawer and I was an avid coffee drinker with my dad for so long, which was another weird thing that I picked up on. 'Cause it was always coffee with my mom. Every morning coffee. And then all of a sudden, the coffee's gone, the tea's there, and every kind of eclectic, weird tea you can get. And he would send her boxes of tea down to Florida, or take them to her. And so, she eventually came to the conclusion, "Oh, these teas must be what's poisoning me. That's why I'm having such a bad pregnancy." Oh my God. So, she started going to the doctors in Florida, and they would run all these tests, and they couldn't find anything. So, she would go from doctor to doctor to doctor and try and get them to run more tests and do more labs because she was convinced. Until one of the doctors fired her as a patient and they said, get out of my office. Nobody was fitting her narrative and her agenda, so she was getting mad.

Would you agree that she's now significantly less stable than she was when she arrived?

Yes.

So did you have any kind of theory on what was the catalyst for that? Do we think it was like being pregnant and hormones?

Now more than ever, I think that she just stopped getting her way as much, and you you can only play that part for so long before you start to get frustrated with the outcome. And so, I mean, it just happened to her in prison. She got put into, what's the word?

Solitary.

Solitary confinement. Yeah, because she assaulted a cop in prison. Then they moved her to a new prison in January. So I think she was probably playing like pretty nice girl and then wasn't getting her way still and got frustrated and assaulted a cop. Same thing.

Oof.

Man.

Okay, so now it's getting really, really dicey for your father because she's starting to accuse him and call people, and Child Protective Services now getting involved, and your father's under the weight of these accusations. She has the baby, and Monica immediately starts hyperbaric chamber treatments to rid her and the baby of the poison that her dad—

25 treatments or something.

They let her do that? 26 consecutive days, 40 hours of treatment.

With the baby?

Video of the— pictures of the baby in this hyperbaric chamber so that she can get the poison out.

It almost sounds like psychosis, like Cohen. We had someone on who is— he has like a schizophrenic adjacent disorder and led to all the psychosis. It kind of sounds like that.

Yeah, well, that's what these situations leave all of us with, is how much did she herself believe, how much was just evil calculation?

I think it was both. I think it was evil calculation to start, and then she just got to a point where she started to believe it because she said it so much.

Yeah, did you convince yourself her ultimate goal was, oh, I'm gonna get a divorce and I'm gonna take his money?

I don't know. I think at that point he did not have a lot of money, and it was becoming very apparent he had just dumped a ton on this. Right.

Yeah.

I mean, at this point he was still paying the medical bills for the kid, he was paying for her, he was paying for her mother. Her and for me, and then for himself. He was just spread so thin.

I'm trying to think of the different things that happened during this time, but he wants to see the baby. She will not allow that. And then there's a hearing, and in this hearing, he has to basically prove he has not been poisoning her and that none of these allegations are true. And in fact, that is the come, thank goodness.

Yeah.

What grade were you in at that point? Are you like a senior?

Maybe I was around junior, senior year.

As you're seeing your father go through this stuff, how is it landing on you? Are you urging him like, just let this go?

It was back and forth for a while. He kept me out of a lot of it because I didn't find out that there was over 10 allegations made against him in this time. There was a period where CPS did get involved and I moved out into my brother's house for 6 months, and then I moved back. That was right at the end of my senior year, and I moved back in with him, and he was just keeping me kind of out of it because I had asked him to at that point. I said, I don't want to know what's going on. They were trying to reconcile, and they'd be together at one point, and then she would do something again, and cops would show up at the door, and, you know, another allegation. He called me at one point, and he was like, hey, I just need you to kind of— I had to speak to someone on the phone. Phone just to give a character reference. You know, this is my dad and he's a great guy and he would never hurt anyone, right? Yeah, he did that one hearing. I don't know if that was senior year, I think it was.

And the judge said there's not a scintilla of evidence that proves that Doug is guilty of any of this. This is ridiculous.

Yeah, he was probably pretty embarrassed by all this too. I can't imagine he wanted you to know. He knew he married a girl after 13 days, right? He knows what a disaster has been, and he didn't necessarily want you to know she's now accusing him of trying to kill her.

He knows you've been around this whole time, basically.

All right, so I went and visited. At this point, he had met the baby, they were back together, he was living in Florida. This was second semester of my senior year because he got me an apartment in Charleston and he moved to Florida. So there was Christmas where he asked me to go meet my half-sister for the first time, and I went down there and I stayed with him in his apartment and I met the baby. And so this happened twice. We went to church church, and she was wearing a bodycon sparkly sequin dress that went up to her butt cheeks and stilettos into the late night service in Sarasota, Florida. And her mom and the baby and my dad and I walked in. The baby started crying. I was overwhelmed. I had to go step out in the hallway, and her mom and her followed me out there and cornered me. And they basically were saying, why are you crying? Did your dad do something? You know he's out to kill us.

Oh my God.

The mom said, here's my number, I'm writing it on a piece of paper. Don't put it in your phone because he can hack our phones and he can get my number and he'll kill me. And I literally looked at her and I said, fuck off.

Good.

I had enough. I said, my dad is not a killer. He didn't kill me. He didn't kill my mom. Went back into the service, finished the service, went to bed. And I told my dad at that point, but I don't think they had really registered what exactly, because I was kind of just like, they just were being really weird and annoying. Fast forward to Easter of the next last year, he asked me to go back to Florida again. So I did. And we were all shopping before dinner, and Ashley and her mom pulled me into a corner of the store that had a huge speaker so that I guess nobody could hear them. But again, same thing— your dad tried to kill me, he tried to kill your mom, he's gonna kill us all. And again, I just said, leave me alone. Like, I don't know. So the next morning, I told my dad, I said, hey, I can't do this anymore. This is the second time they've tried to convince me that, I don't want to be around them anymore. And he said, he's like, that's it, I'm done. I have tried again and again and again to show this woman that I love her and there's nothing wrong with me.

I'm gonna pack up my car and I'm leaving too. And I said, no, Dad, the baby is about to be here to open her Easter basket. I don't think you should leave. You need to have that experience with her. She's old enough to remember that. So I told him to stay. I said, I'm gonna go to Charleston, you can come back tomorrow. And he stayed and he didn't come back. So that was like a moment that I could have been like, good for you, leave. And I didn't.

But your reasoning was so kind and generous.

Also, even if he had come back with you that weekend, he would have been back. Yeah, exactly. There was no breaking this cycle without something radical.

Yeah.

Were you feeling abandoned? I mean, you're in high school and you're living in an apartment. Your mom's gone.

Not really. I thought it was cool.

You got an apartment.

Yeah, I was a senior in high school.

That is kind of cool. I had a triple early out, which meant I only had one class.

Oh man.

So I actually almost didn't graduate because my attendance record was so bad that year or that semester. But at the time it was in Mount Pleasant. It was in the neighborhood that my best friend and my boyfriend at the time lived in. And so, I mean, everybody would just come over after school. Yeah. And my dad passed through a lot. Okay. So I would see him once or twice a week going to North Carolina and home from North Carolina. So I didn't feel too abandoned. And I also— I mean, I texted him all day every day. I called him all the time. He was still my best friend. Yeah. So we were always talking and, okay, hanging out, you know. I was still super close with them.

God, to have your own apartment and a boyfriend, that is exciting.

Yeah.

At some point during this, I guess post-Easter, she decides, okay, we're gonna be together, we all need a fresh start, let's all move to Maryland?

Yes, so that was my freshman year of college, actually.

You have the worst first year of college of anyone I've ever heard, because it's 2020.

So that was going into my sophomore year. I graduated high school 2019. I didn't continue college after that because I told my dad, hey, I'm not letting you pay tuition for me to cheat online school. Like, that's not gonna happen. I didn't know what I wanted to major in yet. Yeah, it was going to be a gap year. COVID hit right at the end of my freshman 1 year.

So they have this plan that they're going to move to Maryland, and your father goes over to the house to help pack.

Yeah, the Florida house.

The Florida house.

Yeah. So he had his apartment, he packed it up. She was living with her mom. He went and packed up their house and had a big U-Haul in the driveway. She had 3 guns loaded, one in the pantry, one in a laundry basket down on the floor, and then one in a closet in different rooms.

And there's a baby.

There's a baby walking around that is a toddler now and can reach into a hamper.

Oh my God, the stupidity of that is fucking— yeah, ghastly.

He was in the room and she just shot him and killed him. She shot him, didn't hit him enough to kill him immediately. I think he hung on for about 2 hours before he fully passed, but she waited 15 minutes. She went over the neighbor's house. There was like 15 minutes in between him getting shot and the cops getting called. So before the cops even arrived, the detective arrived on scene, her lawyer was already there, and she just kind of left him to bleed out. I think she was hoping that he was going to bleed out so he couldn't say anything.

Yeah, so he was shot through the leg and the arm, but the one through the arm had entered his body.

Right, yeah.

And went into his chest.

Yeah.

And then she went over to the neighbor's house and basically tells the neighbor, Oh my God, he was assaulting me. I had to kill him. It was self-defense. Now this feels very calculated. I don't think she wanted to be evaluated with her delivery on 911, so she delegated it basically. So now the, the neighbors got to report what happened, right?

And 10 minutes before it happened, the mom and the baby went down to the little park nearby right before it happened.

Oh wow. I mean, all these guns around, and I mean, the fact that it wasn't premeditated It is hard to believe.

Everybody knows you keep your guns in your safe. The safe probably should be the first thing to go in the U-Haul. So it's like, why was there one in a backpack in the closet?

That is so crazy.

I will add this. We left one detail out, which is your dad at one point, at the height of this, did write a letter to the sheriff's department accusing Ashley of having a split personality. So it seems like there was a moment where he kind of accepted what he was dealing with, but then of course they reconciled.

Yeah. And he always had most positive attitude too. Whenever I was was dealing with anything, he was almost projecting his false positivity onto me. So I think he just wanted to believe this isn't happening.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Denial.

So you start getting concerned, obviously, the following morning, 'cause normally you would've woken up to a text of some scripture.

Yeah.

So the night before, I had texted him around 5:00 and I had said, "Hey, like, we're out at the sandbar." I sent him pictures of what we were doing. We were all on the boat. And the next morning, I went to go go text him, or I'd check his text and talk to him, and he hadn't sent me a Bible verse. So I thought that was kind of weird, but I also knew some mornings he woke up at like 4 and started his day at 4:00 and had a meeting at 5 or 6. So I knew that happened sometimes, and he would always get back to me and say, I'm sorry, I had a meeting. There was a couple times he's like, I did a double workout today, so it was a couple hours. I was like, okay, so I didn't let it get to me at first. And then another hour went by and still nothing. I still have all the texts on my phone. If you kind of pull it to the side, you can see 30 minutes, 30 minutes, 30 minutes, 30 minutes, and then the texts start turning green. So I knew something was wrong.

I started Googling car accident. I texted Ashley. I said, hey, have you heard from him recently? I haven't heard from him, starting to get worried.

God, the trauma.

Did she respond again?

Yeah, no, she didn't. I don't even know if it went through or not because I remember feeling so stupid for even reaching out to her. I deleted it. But I called my friends and all my friends are like, "Eva, you have anxiety. You do this when we don't answer fast enough. You know, it's probably just your mom." I called my sister-in-law, and she lived 5 minutes down the road from the job that I was supposed to start that day. And so I went over to her house to hang out, and I was telling her, and she was like, "Eva, you have nothing to worry about. Everything's fine. He'll get back to you." And we were sitting in there in the living room, and I got the call from my uncle. And it was both my uncles on the phone. I don't know if they were together or they had just patched each other in at the same time. Yeah, he said there had been an accident accident. And I said, what happened? And he said, your dad's been shot. And my initial reaction was, he's dead and she killed him. And so that's what I said.

I said, I was like, is he alive? He said no. And I said, she did it, didn't she? And he said, yeah. Oh, so that was that.

Oh my God.

Okay, now, well, that's simply not enough for you to go through. So now we've got to have a media circus.

Yeah.

What do you do with that? Is it this same kind of, kind of shutdown? I really can't even process what this is.

In that moment, yeah, my uncles were talking and talking and talking, and I said, hold on. And I set my phone down and I looked at my sister-in-law. They had their newborn, and she put the baby down on the couch, and I crawled up into her lap, and I just looked at her. I said, I don't have parents. And she said, I know. She was crying. I wasn't I wasn't crying, I was in shock. But I had friends down the street because it was in the same neighborhood that my apartment was in too, and we were all going to hang out after my shift. So I called my friends and I said, hey, are y'all still there? I drove over there. I couldn't even get my foot to fully step down on the pedal because my foot was shaking so much. I sat down on the porch and my friend, he was like my best friend, and he said, what happened? And I said, she killed him. And everybody just kind of kind of looked at me. They said, all right, what are we doing tonight? You know, what are we going to do? We had plans tonight.

Are we going to continue the plans? And I said, I would like to continue the plans. I think that it's about to get pretty hairy with the media.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Boy, I mean, by the way, at 19, this would be my solution. Like, I don't even know what your solution— but I would have been drunk very quickly.

Yeah, I was drunk shortly after.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just too much. And I'm like, okay, let's—

way too much.

Let's add that to the mix and see if that helps. Okay, so how soon after does the first bit of media attention start?

I mean, within a couple hours, there was the local news doing the "estranged wife shoots husband in Sarasota, Florida." And then a few weeks later, maybe, we got some calls from some bigger media. Then it just kind of snowballed from there.

Some part of me, that would be exciting in some way. Like, "Oh my God, news are calling me." That would be an exciting element. Moment for me. Having had nothing spectacular happen to me, I might have initially been like—

I don't think that I ever felt excited about it. I just kind of said yes to everything. I didn't ever feel nervous, so I just kind of kept doing it. And, you know, I think that my family, my dad's brothers and my family, were just kept saying, you're doing such a great job, you know, you're so well spoken, you can really hold your own for your dad. And that's when I was like, you know what, yeah, people need know that he was a good guy and he needs to have some justice. And this doesn't make me nervous, so I'm just going to keep doing it.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're representing your family well, right? So this turns quickly into, yeah, media attention, TV specials, tabloids, social media scrutiny.

Yeah.

Like the full storm takes off. And I think you can sense people, they want an emotional performance from you.

Yeah, because it was very tabloidy. It was very—

yeah, young woman, older man.

Yeah. And the daughter that's left alone, there's always these tearjerker questions. I could sense that they wanted some sort of emotional reaction online for the clickbait.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh, and did you feel like stubborn, like, I'm not giving them that?

Not really. I just can't cry in front of people.

Yeah.

I'm so— I wouldn't say numb to it, but it doesn't really faze me. I can talk about the most gruesome things I've dealt with this entire time. And I think the other side, the media, likes that because everybody wants to know. I wasn't intentionally feeding into it. I'm just like, well, I'm an open book and I don't have an issue talking about it.

Yeah, but it's also a very heightened experience to turn on the TV and see yourself on it.

Yeah, well, it wasn't weird. I remember the first— it was a CVS 48 Hours that I did and it came on the TV and I was like, the camera does add £20.

That's all I could think about.

So honestly, it wasn't really exciting for me to see myself on it on TV, I was more annoyed at some of the, the media was still trying to paint my dad in this terrible light. So I was like, okay, I have to keep going, right?

Entertaining the notion that it was self-defense, maybe.

So is she in jail? Was she then? Did she get—

she was on house arrest. Oh yeah, she was in jail for like 10 days or something afterwards. She got put on house arrest.

When do you start making TikToks, before the trial or during the trial?

That was 2020 when it happened. I started my first TikTok that I made about It was December or January of 2020, 2021-ish. I woke up with millions of likes, thousands of comments, millions of views.

Wow.

And then within a week or two I had 200,000 followers.

And explain the TikToks you were making.

At that point I wasn't really doing a whole lot of talking on TikTok, but I had used a sound or two that just was fitting of like, mom died, dad remarried, boom, dad murdered. So it wasn't a lot of context and I think that was just enough for people to comment 'What the fuck?' Right. You know, 'What did I just watch?' And then replay it and then the algorithm picks up on it. So it just got very widespread.

Wow.

Very quickly.

Yeah. And you are mostly exploring some dark humor throughout all this.

Oh, it was all jokes. The only time I didn't joke about it was explaining it, but even then I just joked about it. So what else am I gonna say?

You're so funny.

I feel like I'm watching a playbook of exactly how I would've handled it, to be honest. Thank you. Like, yeah. My immediate reaction to heartbreak, sorrow, everything is a joke almost immediately. I'm almost in the middle of watching something horrendous and I'm already kind of, this is my defense mechanism.

Yeah, I crack jokes all the time about things I probably shouldn't, which is not great. But my friends and I, I stayed over at my friend's house for probably a week after all of that happened. The night we got drunk and then we just kind of continued the party for a week after that. And at that point, the orphan jokes started rolling around 'cause it was like, well, you was at like, our orphan. She's just hanging out on her couch and they didn't care. They wanted me to, but the orphan jokes came on within days.

Yeah, yeah, whatever you need to do to survive something like that. Like, no one can judge it.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We had the most horrific event happen. Out of respect for the people involved, I won't even detail, but suffice to say, we had roommates, and I was with 3 of them, and we got this completely tragic bit of information. I received it first, and I had to go tell my other 2 roommates who were with me out of town. And at the end of explaining it to them, I already had—

The punchline.

Yeah, I had a joke. And then they're all so fucked up too, 'cause we're all from fucked-up houses. They were right on it. It's just like, that's just how we did it.

It's funny. I mean, you have to. Have to laugh sometimes.

Yeah, that was my approach. But I also would be juggling with that, often feeling guilty that I wasn't having the reaction everyone thought I should.

I did. That happened with my mom too, is I never really had this breakdown. And I think after the murder happened, I was kind of waiting to see, am I gonna crack? 'Cause I immediately— my first reaction was, oh my God, my parents My parents are dead. Second reaction was, oh my God, rent's due in 3 days. So I immediately had to start thinking, how am I gonna pay my bills? How am I gonna do this? The house mortgage fell on me. There were so many pieces to pick up that I was just left to deal with that I didn't have a second to sit down and think, oh my God, what just happened?

Yeah, you're 20 years old.

I was like joking and then somebody was trying to serve me for the mortgage on the house. So it was like, I couldn't, you know. Yeah, you didn't have that luxury.

Injury of really wallowing in it while another parent nurtured you.

And I couldn't afford therapy, so I just kind of did what I had to do.

I think I always had a suspicion that if I were to let it break through, I would never recover.

That's why I haven't to this day gone to any sort of therapy. I went to a psychiatrist for like 2 weeks after the pre-trial because I think that messed me up. I couldn't sleep for days after the pre-trial, but I was almost scared. Everyone kept saying, well, maybe if talk therapy isn't for you, EMDR might, because that's what if you just can't get it out? It's subconscious. And that is— I had a lot of like nervous system issues after that. It was coming out in different ways, so I thought maybe it is just a nervous system thing. But I didn't want to tap into that because that's a can of worms that I don't know if I open it what's going to come out.

Did you have any autoimmune stuff?

Yeah, I had some autoimmune stuff. I had blood sugar dysregulation. I had just like the most random things, a lot of hormonal issues.

The body knows. It doesn't give a The body doesn't get with the plan. Like, oh, we're just gonna ignore this and focus on something else and run faster forward.

Yeah.

The body's like, no, you're not.

No.

So that's what really got me into like the health and wellness scene and exercise and just nutrition because I had to figure out how to fix all of that too.

So what was it about the pre-trial that was so disturbing?

So it was only one day and it was basically whether or not it was gonna go trial for murder, if it was out of self-defense or not. But it was one day, and they had all these— it was mostly evidence just thrown up on the screen. And so all day they were going, "This is evidence picture number this. You're about to see this," and they would put it up on the screen. And then halfway through the day or so, or towards the end of the day, Suzanne O'Donnell came up to me and she said, "Hey, what we're about to put up on the screen, some of it might be graphic. If you don't want to see it, we don't have to show it up there, but if you want media to to see it. We have to show it. I said, well, I want media to see what she did to my dad. And there was like a couple times that I had seen a few more graphic pictures, but it wasn't anything with my dad in it. Yeah, but I think something glitched or they didn't announce it because I thought, well, if they announce it, then I can just look down before I see it.

They didn't announce it and just boom, dad's autopsy pictures, like chest up, eyes open, blood on face, like literally out of a horror movie on the screen, big screen. And so I looked at it and it was almost like I couldn't look away. And then I looked down and then I sat there for a second and then I just looked at my best friend and I said, I have to go outside. I thought I was doing such a good job keeping it in, but there was kind of a door and then a little space and then another door out into the hallway. And I like wailed out, and before I could get outside. I told her like a day or two later, I was like, you know, I think I really held it together. She said, no, everybody heard that.

It's okay that they heard that. That's the reaction of someone seeing their dad.

Yeah.

In that state.

I did go to a psychiatrist for a couple weeks after that, because every time I closed my eyes for weeks after that, I couldn't fall asleep.

You should never ever have to see—

oh my God—

so when you love injured like that and hurt. How soon after that is the the trial?

One year exactly. So that was July 2023 and then July 2024.

And in the book, that's kind of more agonizing than anything else. Yeah, the whole waiting for justice.

Yeah, the trials. It was also around the time— I don't know if y'all are familiar with the Murdaughs in—

yeah, oh yeah, yeah.

So that happened around the same time as my dad's stuff. And so, but that was going to trial a lot quicker. So I kept thinking maybe this is going to go to trial pretty quick and I can get justice justice. And it just kept getting pushed and pushed, and they would file something else, and she switched lawyers, so they have to refile this. The pretrial finally happened in 2023, and then it was a year, which is typical, I think, for the justice system to have a year later after the pretrial. So it wasn't too far, but yeah, it was 4 years of waiting for this, which was gruesome.

You just were like, I've got to know she's going away. Was the anxiety of that like, I must know she's gonna pay for this?

Kind of. At that point, I don't want to say I didn't care, but it taken so long, and I had finally gotten my feet back on the ground and my life set up, and I was heading in a good direction. And I was just like, you know, she goes to prison, she goes to prison. If she doesn't— I think that's what I told myself. Also subconsciously, I was kind of hoping it would kind of just be over with, but it was also this weight on my shoulders of knowing it was gonna happen.

Yeah.

And anticipating the outcome.

Yeah.

It was just like a And so every day I would wake up and think, oh, it still hasn't happened yet. You know, what's gonna happen when it does?

There's no closure.

Right.

Do you start between the pre-trial and the trial? Is that when you start your company?

Oh yeah. I actually started Ghost Cowboy in 2021. It kind of just took off very fast.

Tell me, how'd you get the idea for it?

It started randomly. I was working doing social media for a company based out of Charleston. They had all in-house production, so they had the t-shirt printing machines, the embroidery machines, the shipping. I had a couple of funny— there was like memes. It was back when Kanye and Pete Davidson had their rivalry. So I hadn't— yeah, I hadn't had the website set up yet, but I had this idea for myself too. I just— I wasn't going to make a t-shirt and sell it, but I was like, I'd wear a funny t-shirt with it. It would was like Kanye holding up stick figure drawings and he had crossed out Pete on it or something. I put that on the t-shirt and I wore it in a TikTok and it went crazy. I mean, it was like 120,000 views within the first couple hours. So I told my boss, I said, hey, should I put it up on the website? They had like an old website they weren't using. He said, yeah, why not? And it did great. And I said, okay, if I do that again— he had thrown me like a grand or something. I saw the sales, I was like, I know what kind of brand t-shirt we were using.

Like, that blank was cheap, you know, he threw me chump change. So I said, if I do this again, I want 50% of the profit. Yeah. He said, okay, if you do it again. And then I, I did it again. And then the third meme t-shirt went super crazy viral. And at that point I said, okay, I kind of wanna just have a stab at this t-shirt thing. And so I set up my own website. Ghost Cowboy has no meaning behind the name. I actually don't love the name of it, but you know, it was just so random and people liked it.

We have a catchphrase. Phrase in our description that we can't stand anymore.

Oh yeah, messiness of being human.

Yeah, we don't like it. Yeah, it's too cute.

Everybody knows it. So I was an artist and I didn't want to get known for the pictures taken off of the internet and memes and stuff, so I just started using my TikTok every day for 60 days. I drew something and I think that people really liked the fact that I could draw it and then immediately go put it on printer and print the shirt and then put it up on the website. So people would comment, you know, you should draw this or you should do this kind of shirt and this kind of color, or you should do this on a hoodie or a crew neck. And so for 2 months straight, a new shirt every single day. And that series started picking up some heat and that's just what took the company off.

Wow.

Wow.

And now you do all kinds of goods. Yeah. What other things do you guys?

I do sweatshirts, t-shirts, crew necks. I do hats occasionally. It's kind of kind of whatever I'm feeling. I do a new design every week. And yeah, it's just me back there in the warehouse, 'cause I split from that guy. We become business partners over a handshake. I was young, I was 21. I didn't really know what I was doing. And eventually I just was like, you know, this is all my art. I'm doing all of the work for this. I was giving him overhead to pay his employees to do the production for me. So I was just like, I'm gonna step away and do this all by myself. Yeah. And there was a a little bit of a backfire on that. He said, "No, and you're an employee." I said, "No, I'm not." Yeah. So I had to take some legal action, which took about a year. So I wasn't ever able to really get into the lawsuit details, but I came home from the murder trial and immediately had to get on call with my two attorneys because I was still dealing with this like lawsuit. Oh my God. I was paying myself nothing because I had to afford this lawsuit.

Yeah.

And eventually it settled and that was it. Was kind of that. It's back, but I lost all of the employees. I had to start fresh with the production. So I got things back to like the volume that I was doing, sale-wise, but it's just me back there. So now customers still think that it's like a full-blown team. No, it's just me, dude, in the back of a warehouse printing out the order. Wow.

Well, you have this theme recurrent in your book, which is creation is the best response to Destruction.

Yes. My dad taught me how to paint and to draw. As soon as I could hold a pencil, I was drawing stuff. And I was always upstairs in my room painting something or doing a craft, or that was just kind of how I like to spend my time as a really young kid. And then I got into middle school and I realized, you know, I actually am kind of pretty good at the portraits thing. So I started doing more portraits. And my dad was a phenomenal artist. I mean, could paint anything you asked him to. Just, it was insane how good of an artist he was. And he taught me how to do all of that. And then it was an outlet for me. I would either go on a run or I'd go paint something that kind of just got myself out of my head.

Yeah. So the trial— a, in the trial when that finally happened, did you guys ever have moments? Did you guys lock eyes ever?

No, she didn't look at me once. I think the first time I saw her was in the hallway, and I lost it because at that point I hadn't seen her in so many years. And I had to run into the bathroom. I cried. I came back out, I was like, all right, let's do this. Ever since then, that entire trial, I was trying to stand right there and make her look at me. Her eyes were glued to the floor or glued to her little notepad in front of her, and she was just scribbling away. Even during the victim's impact statement. She wouldn't even look up.

There's demonstrations going on outside the courthouse.

Oh yeah, the purple people. They were all in purple because purple is the women's survivor, like, domestic violence survivor color. That was a funny story. The last day of the trial, which obviously I support women and I want to get women out of domestic violence situations, but we were against those people that were wearing purple and protesting the the entire 2 weeks blaring Christian music. They had her child, my dad's child, out there with a picture of her on a t-shirt screaming, "Free my mom," or something like that. This kid is 6 years old. She doesn't know what she's doing. And some reporter shoving a camera in the kid's face. It was ridiculous. But yeah, the last day of the trial, my uncle wore purple to the courthouse. We're like, are you jo— like, really?

Yeah, just on accident.

Yeah.

Is he colorblind? Did you learn on that day.

Maybe.

Yeah, I guess that might have been his excuse that day.

But no, what are you talking about? This is red.

No. Yeah.

Isn't that so frustrating when you're like, I'm on your side technically, and yet so hard to navigate that?

Because at that point, like, I had my own platform. I didn't want people to think that I didn't. And Reddit was not a nice place for me.

It's not a nice place.

Instagram and TikTok were great. All the comments had been so kind. But Reddit and Twitter, I could not load No, those are more toxic. People were saying I have my dad's eyes, but there was one that was like, she's gonna turn out to be an abuser just like her father because they have the same eyes or something. I was like, really? You're really gonna say that?

What is wrong with you? I don't know.

Also a lot of church supporters.

I don't want to say that they had faked being friends with those people to kind of gain support in the community, but I kind of feel like that's something they would do. Yeah, I didn't want to look like a bad person bashing kids.

Yeah, you're going up against like a Woman's Defense Fund League coalition in the church, and then you're the victim. It's Really upside down.

Yeah.

Did you learn anything in the trial that was upsetting, or you wish you just never learned about your dad? Because part of the defense is going to be them trying to paint your father as this terrible person, and then you're going to inadvertently learn all kinds of stuff about your dad that maybe no one needs to ever learn.

I didn't really not know anything, you know. Everything was kind of already made aware to me before. There were text messages between them sent them some interesting sexy text messages that you'd rather not see. She's like, ah, gross. Yeah, like there was a couple reports where they talked about like choking and all the sexual stuff they want to do. I'm just gross. But there was one thing he texted Ashley at one point that he had said, Renee doesn't exist to me, or something, because she kept bringing my mom up. And he had said that like, she doesn't exist to me anymore, because he's gotta pacify Yeah, that was a little gut-wrenching. Yeah, of course. 'Cause I mean, I'd always known my dad to just love my mom to pieces.

And it wasn't true.

It wasn't true. Yeah, I know it wasn't true, but that's—

Of course it's hard to see that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, what did you learn about the power of charisma during that trial?

I mean, everything. She just had her agenda set and she just would do anything to try and force the agenda. Like the alligator tears on stand, that's what everybody said when she was crying and she looked worse on certain days and she was, dressing, just the whole thing. She was playing a role.

She's kind of built to play that.

Yeah, she's been doing it. She's been playing a role for years. Yeah, her whole life.

And that's what I put in my impact statement. I said, you know, this is a role that you finally thought you were gonna get and keep, or something, or the best performance of your life. That's what I said. And, you know, she tried.

Now, post-trial, you have some, like, reckoning to do. You've got to kind of figure out what's ahead, and I'm curious.

She's convicted.

She got found guilty of manslaughter, so she got 20 years plus 10 years of probation, but obviously that could be shorter.

Yeah, it was 5 to 1 at first with the jury. She was going to get murder 2, but then all 5 came down to meet the 1 at manslaughter. I don't know the reasoning, but that was really annoying to hear. I thought it was murder 1.

I think it was premeditated murder.

There was also reports reports that came out during the end of that, that two different people had said that she had reached out about hiring a hitman, but it wasn't enough evidence to back it up.

Yeah, to submit that. So were you expecting some closure or sense of relief once she was convicted and found guilty that did not come, or did you not even expect it? Or tell me all the wave of emotions post-trial?

I was relieved post-trial for sure, ready to get out of Sarasota and never have to go back. I kind of had done a really good job of giving myself the closure, so I wasn't looking to the verdict for validation, you know, because it was like, well, whatever she gets, my dad's dead, there's no bringing him back, and I already have everything that I need at this point, so I just need to figure it my own. But it did feel good to have that behind me. And even the next summer, 'cause I had two summers in a row of anticipating some sort of trial, I was anxious for a little bit and I couldn't figure out why until I realized, oh, this is the first summer that I'm not dealing with my business in a lawsuit. I'm not dealing with a murder trial. It's just quiet.

Yeah.

And I don't have to deal with anything anymore.

But that can also be scary.

Oh, I was freaking out.

Yeah.

My roommate at the time was like, well, maybe it's because like you just are not used to being comfortable.

Yeah. Just you're a raw causal setting and the nervous system, the cortisol. Like, you had been living at a very, very heightened for years now.

Yeah.

You've got to like figure out how we're moving forward. And I know many of the reasons, but tell me some of the things that you focused on and became your path out of this whole chapter.

I knew that I had built my platform up to this point, and when I had started posting, the reason I kept posting was I wanted to help people because I'd get so many comments and DMs and people coming up to me in grocery stores saying, "Hey, I'm dealing with this, and you helped me laugh about it," or, "You helped me look at it in a different light." Or I got a comment the other day that said, "I'm dealing with something, and I'm gonna start referencing your videos anytime I start to feel alone." And that just made me feel so good because I had felt so alone. Sometimes I still do. None of my friends are, you know, doing the things that I'm doing right now, or I was doing. And it's kind of scary being like, I don't have a fallback plan. I'm doing this on my own. I don't really have a reference.

Yeah.

You talk about how isolating the experience is because, yeah, who on earth can relate to you really? Right. Your boyfriend of 3 and a half years was urging you to like get over yourself.

Yeah.

Get over it.

Which ended that relationship.

After my dad passed, I realized that yes, it was very isolating. And first of all, I mean, it was like a high school into college relationship, but he's told me one time, he's like, get over it. And I realized we're just on different paths right now. You have your parents, you have your fallback plan. This is my plan B.

This is my safety net, is plan B. Unfortunately, we're down to that.

Yeah. So I was just like, I just need to figure out what I'm doing. And it really just made me think, okay, we're just not meant to be together right now, you know? And I just need to figure out my life. Also, I didn't handle it with grace. I think I was like blacked out, not drunk, but just in a daze of what is going on with my life right now. Yeah. I started posting on social media and I was realizing I can help people feel less alone because I needed a me in that moment and I didn't have a me. So I just kept doing that and I built this community that made me feel less alone. I helped other people and I wanted to finish the book and get that out there.

Well, you have really good habits. You have art, you're creating nonstop. You have your business, which is great. Sully's still with us.

Oh, Sully. Yeah.

No, the dog is large. Still with us.

13, but he acts like a puppy. So—

oh my gosh, he's been through a lot with you.

I say that if he could write a book, he's going to do a lot better than mine.

Yeah, tell me how the ocean in Charleston and all those elements you've come to lean on and how helpful they've been.

So right when I started writing Ghost Girl, I had just moved into my house on Isle of Palms. I started going down down a really dark path. I mean, I was going out every single night. I had started my business, I was making money, I was doing on my own, I was drinking, I was partying. And then I had one terrible, terrible, terrible hangover and realized that I need to stop doing this because it is not the correct— I'm blowing money. I'm waking up at 10:00 AM or 11:00 AM every day or 1:00 PM. Like, yeah, just not good habits. And I found this house and I moved out and I had always my parents saying growing up, growing up, you know, we're gonna move to the beach one day, or we were always at the beach. We were always in the marsh. We were always doing something outside. And so I saw this house. I had bought a 1978 F-100 that I was rebuilding and I sold that.

Great choice. I just wanna tip my hat to you.

Thank you. I loved that truck, but I sold it so I could afford two rents because I had my apartment in Mount Pleasant and I found this house and I had to have it. Sold it so I could afford the two rents to get rid of my old lease and move into this beach house. And I went dark. I got back to my old self of waking up early. I was getting back into shape. I was running all the time. I had Soleil, I had my business, and I just kind of had a few friends and my roommate. And I just was out at the beach every single day, and I had the luxury of my own business. So if the UV was high, I was going to go tan.

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, your Instagram has Beach, beach, beach, beach, beach, beach, beach.

Yes.

I can tell that's like a huge source for you.

Yeah. Tomorrow the UV's at 11 and I'm not there. I'm flying home.

Oh no.

I love that you're chasing UV.

It's hot.

Oh, that is my—

Nice out here.

Oh, it's so nice. But I'll be on an airplane tomorrow. So I wish I got to experience the outside today. It was great. But yeah, no, I saw a post on Instagram today and it said the UV is my stock market. I'm checking it every single day. I tie my mornings if I don't have to go to the warehouse. I'll be like, okay, wake up at 5. I was up until recently training for a marathon. So it was, you know, an hour, hour and a half every morning of running and then lifting and then doing this. So I'd be like, all right, if I can finish all my things by 11, I can be on the beach by 11:30 and then can go to the warehouse at 3. That was like my summer style. Nice.

This is a good existence.

Yeah.

Did you run in the marathon?

No. So this happened to me last fall too. I had a different race and I was actually supposed to be in Ventura last week. Weekend to run it, but I tore something in my glute and it caused IT band syndrome. Oh yeah. And I got to a point where I could run on it but not well. And at that point, I think I was so emotionally— work is busy, the book is coming out, I have a lot of things going on. And my PT said, I can expect you to run it but come home injured even more. And I said, why would I do that?

Yeah, exactly. So I have a fall race that I'm I love the voice of your book. It's very young, and I say that as a compliment.

That's kind of the biggest thing I get.

I really, really dig it, though. I'm really glad you aren't trying to purport to be some 50-year-old looking back on your life with all the answers. Like, there's something about all the current vernacular you're using and just the way you're talking. It's a very, very youthful book. I think, like, young people would love reading this book.

I also started writing it in 2021, so I moved into the beach house and then I started writing it. I mean, I was younger and so I've kind of grown into it and it's interesting. So I'll go back and read some of it and be like, I wouldn't say that now.

But it's good. It's of that moment.

It really captures 4 years of my life and into now.

It's almost impossible to believe that you're doing as well as you are. I mean, it's like, I feel like a 1 in 10,000 people, all these things could happen to and you would still be functional and building and creating. That's crazy.

Well, so my mom and my dad always said everything happens for a reason. And I had so many weird instances where that just kind of came to fruition after the fact that that was the biggest thing. I just, I told myself for so long of like, everything happens for a reason. It sucks, but it's supposed to happen. My brother, ex-military, I had him kind of in my ear almost like David Goggins in your ear, just like suck it up, get through it. And so I did have this kind of war path of, you know, I'm just gonna have relentless positivity.

Yeah.

And that's just what's gonna get me through. And then, I mean, obviously eventually I did start getting into the neuroscience of it all and just how you can really train your brain to get through and stay positive.

We're insanely resilient and you're a premium example of that.

Prime example.

That is fucking crazy.

The highest example.

Yeah. I really hope everyone checks this book out and I hope if you have a young girl in your life, you buy the book for her. It's called Ghost Girl: Surviving the Black Swan Murder. Eva, it's a real pleasure to meet you. Yeah, thanks for having me. Thanks so much for being here. Being willing to tell us the story.

Great.

Yeah. All right, let's get you some UV. Let's try to get a 12.

What's the apex?

Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite fact checks. 2 pees in an hour, Monica? I'm actually concerned. Oh, a little scary.

That's a lot.

I only pee once a day.

Once a day.

I know.

No, I mean—

And 2 in an hour, you're like—

Some would think that's scary, but—

Initially, that part's scary, but then you get used to that.

That's right.

And then it's scary if she goes twice in an hour.

Yeah. Well, I did think for a minute that I was getting a UTI, but I'm not.

Okay. Okay.

It's my mom's fault because she—

She gave you dirty underwear?

Yeah, she does my laundry. No. She takes cranberry pills. She's been taking them for a long, long, long time, and she like swears by the cranberry pills. And so I started taking them for a while, and then I stopped. And so when I was home for Christmas, she was taking hers, and she said, are you still taking your cranberry pills? And I said, no, I'm not taking them anymore. And she's like, why?

You should— anymore?

Yeah. She's like, why? You should take them. Whatever. And I was like, I'm not taking them. And then on New Year's Day, I called and we were talking about our resolutions and she said, what are your resolutions? Cranberry pills. And I was so annoyed.

Wow.

I was like, no, I'm not doing it. Like 3 or 4 days later, I was like, I think I'm getting a GI. And I had to go pick up some good old cranberry pills.

She'd be so happy, right? I told her, how could she not?

I just told her I'm back taking the cranberry pills. I didn't tell her that.

You didn't admit.

No, I didn't.

It was under duress.

I did not.

Well, I'll just say in a forthcoming episode soon, next week.

Yeah.

We have a guest on who's talking about throwing a birthday party. And I went on and on about how I don't want a birthday party. And half the episode is about how I don't want a birthday party. And we walked out of the garage from that interview and I was like, that's weird. Kristen's got a man over in the swimming pool.

A big man.

Yeah. Notice it was Aaron at first. I was just like, oh, she's got a man over. I saw a little bit of— there's a woman in the mix, and I'm like, oh, these are her singing friends over.

Yeah.

So then I come around the, the hedges and I see my son's here, Sharon Beasley.

Yeah. And I go, he's in the hot tub.

My very first thought, not to get too dark for the cherries, but this is our past. I'm like, the only time Aaron has ever shown up in California without letting me know he was was coming was the day I opened my apartment door in Santa Monica. There was standing there, and it looked like he had been drug behind a car for a week, and he had been smoking crack for 5 days. Oh, you can't— tiny moment of, I think I'm gonna die, or go get on an airplane and fly to my dad. He got on an airplane.

So you thought, you thought something bad was happening?

I was already sober for a year maybe at that point. Yeah, I just got I got a bit of a PTSD, like, why would Aaron just be here without telling me he's coming?

But did it make you feel better that he was in the hot tub and laughing?

Well, I said, "Surprise!" And he goes, "Are you coming off of crack again?" And I said, "I'm here and I'm healthy." Oh, good.

I mean, I didn't really think that.

And Ruthie was there too.

But you never know, she might've been like, "We gotta get Aaron to back this up." Yeah.

Oh, God.

It wasn't that really deep, as I'm saying. I just had this really weird moment where this has only happened one other time. So Kristin, at that point, had to acknowledge, "You're having a surprise party. I've planned a party, and I brought Aaron and Ruthie here for the party." And then— then I was really excited.

Good.

'Cause I didn't have to ask anyone to come. I didn't have to get scared about that. There wasn't a bunch of time for me to worry about who's not gonna show up. 'Cause it was just gonna be the next day, which was last night.

It was perfect timing. She planned— she knew she was going to tell you, which I thought was a good plan, that there wasn't going to be a real jump out moment. And also, Rob and I did great acting because during that interview, we all knew.

You already knew.

Of course we knew.

Did you feel so bad for me? Like, what a dumb dumb he does. He's digging himself deeper and deeper.

No, I was just like, oh, this is going to be a funny moment. Yeah. But then I also was like, if he is then up mad that this is happening or anxious, we had an interview scheduled the day of your party, which was yesterday. Yeah. And it was scheduled for 2:00. The party started at 5:00.

Yeah.

And I was like, oh no. Okay. I think we should probably move up the recording. When is she gonna tell him? Because he needs to have enough time to do his research. He's gonna be mad if he doesn't have enough time to do his research. And if he already doesn't want the party, zero.

Oh, I'm gonna reacts. I'm learning terrible stuff about myself right now.

He's gonna be even more mad about it.

He's gonna hit people. He's gonna hit the children.

But you were very happy.

Hey, my son's there, so I'm happy right away. Aaron's here. This is unexpected. I had just seen him a couple days before in Detroit.

I mean, which was a surprise, or it was last minute. Last minute. And so exciting. It was like, oh, I get to see Dad before my trip and get to pretend that it's our last night together.

Yeah, but Erin's only been here for 10 minutes, but boy, we've already had a very eventful trip.

Yep.

So yesterday, before the interview and the fact check that was moved up, I said, you want to go for a ride in the new station wagon? To which Erin was like, absolutely. So we went for a little rip around town. It was so fun. And then I was like, um, let's quickly— I think we can, before the fact check, get some eggs. So we stop at Cafe 101, we parallel park the wagon Wagon on the street. We go inside, we sit down, we're there for, I don't know, a minute and a half.

Yeah.

And a stranger walks in, he looks at me and goes, "White car?" And I go, "Yeah." He goes, "It's on fire." Horrible. And I just—

PTSD. Oh my God, too many fires in this city.

I sprint out of the restaurant. I'm, I'm fully expecting it to be engulfed in flames. So we sprint outside, get to the wagon. Sure enough, there is smoke coming out of the hood, pull the hood pins, open it up. A wiring harness is on fire. There's flames. I don't know how this worked. Did you see this happen?

The spit?

Yes. Yeah, I just went— I spit as hard as I could at the fire and it went out. It went out. I might have a superpower I didn't know about.

I was just grabbing a fire extinguisher. I couldn't figure out how to pull the plastic pin off. And by the time I got the pin, I was watching him and he went, and the fire was gone. It was just smoldering.

I, I don't know how that worked.

I do worry about that with fires, about using the fire extinguisher, cuz it's not something you can practice.

Well, you should, I guess.

I guess.

I realize that. Oh, I should know how to do this.

Yeah, I know. I have one by my bed and I look at it a lot and I think, I don't really know how.

You should get the safety off and everything.

Yeah, exactly.

It seems really simple, and then also when you think about it, seems really hard.

There's a video of Taylor Swift trying to use one.

Oh, there is?

And she's also like, what the fuck?

She didn't do a good job.

She did end up doing a good job, but she always does a good job.

Yeah.

Was something on fire in front of her?

Yeah, in her kitchen.

Oh yeah, and someone was running video.

Yeah.

And then I'm piecing together because there's now a woman behind the car who I guess was either parking or got in her car, and then what became obvious is she must have got the hotel guy, but I do wonder, had we not just had the fires, if like she would have been so incredibly— she might have saw smoke coming out of a car, like, it's not my problem.

Exactly.

But yeah, everyone's on such high alert that I think she immediately—

I think that's right. She's like, this whole area is about to— yes, like, ignite.

I was then thinking like, oh my God, what if I had set another round of fires in Hollywood?

Finally got those feelas.

People have been like, that entitled bastard, why does he got to have these cars that catch on fire?

Old new cars that keep catching on fire.

Yeah, he can afford a new one, but he bought an old one.

He should be driving electric, that wouldn't caught on fire.

You went near the end of it.

Yeah, but you can drown in them.

I shouldn't say that.

Well, when they catch on fire, you can't go breathe anywhere near them, as we're now finding out. That's the crazy part.

But also, you know that horrible story, and I don't know all the details, so I don't— and it's very sad, but Mitch McConnell's, um, sister-in-law drove into a pond. Yes, in, in a Tesla, and like couldn't get out and died. Ooh. And I think it might have to do with that Tesla.

It probably shuts down the door, opens electrically, not mechanically. Or I think— I don't want to be sued. I think there's a release on there as well. If you had read the manual and practiced like a fireman, no one's doing that.

It's in the middle, it's right there.

It's what?

It's right there on the door though.

Oh, okay.

Well, apparently people like came and tried and they were there and they couldn't.

Yeah, I'm vaguely aware of that.

Yeah, I probably talked about it before.

I think you did. It was when you were wanting everyone to have a window.

Yeah, now I have a lot of smashes.

Oh, nice.

Aaron, I have an update for you.

Oh, please.

I think one of the last times you were here, we were talking about my running.

Yeah, I remember this.

Yes, and I want you to know since then, a sign has been put on the yard, not by me, that says no, it says no dogs allowed slash no trespassing.

I forget exactly what it says. No congregating.

No. It says something explicit.

Really?

Like no more of this. So it was solved for me.

I thought you were gonna bring up his chest hair. That's where I thought this was going.

No.

The last time you talked about having shaved his chest hair, how sexy he felt.

Okay, so what's the update on that?

Well, I just had my back shaved again.

Are you making cashmere?

Cashmere? I should, because it's an enormous amount of fur that comes off.

Really quick, Erin, I've never let you feel this.

No, but I've seen it.

You'll be very impressed. Select group. Go ahead and touch it.

Be really careful.

Give an honest, um, what you think about that.

Oh. Oh my God.

Is that not the softest thing you've ever felt?

Can I sleep with it tonight?

There's a blanket made of that.

No.

Oh, so you can make some. I know, you got to be careful.

That is— it is cashmere, isn't it?

It sure is. There's no Wow. And you know, now Delta's leg hairs are in here too.

Oh yeah.

So we're getting it from harvesting from my back and her legs.

The whole family.

Maybe it can be a joint Aaron's hair, 'cause then we can really get some movement on it.

At the risk of hurting Aaron's feelings, Aaron has had dense body hair his whole life. He's a man. He's always been a man. I'm not, I've always not been a man. I've always felt like a little preteen. Teen or a woman next to him, and he's always had a gorgeous Burt Reynolds chest hair since we were 17.

Okay, so you think it's coarser?

I think it's coarser. Would you— yeah, yeah, yeah.

I, I, um, yeah, all I'm saying is the amount.

Yeah, okay, well, you don't have to have cashmere. We can do mohair for you.

So Ruthie just shaved me again with the dog, um, you know, it's got a vacuum. I may have said this before, but I don't think— I don't know, it has a a hose and you watch it accumulate in a chamber.

Oh wow.

And this is so fun because that's why I realized, I'm like, oh my God, I have so much hair. Like this much.

Whoa.

Aruthi's super grossed out by it.

Well, she can't touch the cashmere then.

Yeah.

I know we're both getting hair now everywhere. It's maddening. But have you noticed, we already talked about our armpit hair? Have you noticed your armpit hair is like, will be 2 feet long sometimes?

If we haven't talked about it, yeah, I've been chopping mine with scissors.

Yeah, same. I now give myself like a haircut. Yes, me too. And then I have this very weird— I want— do you have this where it's like, I have it in my mind it's supposed to be some length, or else why would it be that long?

Sure, because when I—

I'm tempted to just like cut it as close to the skin as possible, so I have to do it do it less. But then I think, aren't you supposed— it's going to be some length.

I wonder that too.

Can you just keep, like, grow it out just so we can see how long?

Um, you're right, there should be video evidence of some of this.

You know why I had to finally confront it? Other than, like, maybe my kids pointed it out and I was embarrassed, but also you can't even get your deodorant to the skin anymore because it just clumps up in your hair, and then you have dingleberry berries in your armpit and you're like, what the fuck is going on? Why am I a mess like this?

It's red light.

Well, 50, you know, not Aaron.

Yeah, not yet.

Not even close.

6 months.

So talk about your party.

Okay, great. How about you guys talk about my party?

Oh, it was a yacht rock theme.

It was a yacht rock theme. It was at my favorite roller skate rink, Moonlight Rollerway.

Yep.

To name drop, Kimmel made the playlist, as he's made me many playlists in the past that I love, and Kristen enlisted to do that. Tons of blasts from the past, a lot of my Groundlings friends, just an incredible, perfect group of people. My dad came all the way out from across town.

Tom Hansen, um, Adam Perry Lang made barbecue.

Cooked—

it was incredible.

Yeah, did you get on both the meats?

I just had the pork.

You just— the pork ribs?

Yeah, so insane. How good were They were so good. And the cornbread was so good.

Oh, it was damp as a motherfucker. It was like a— it was like a, um, uh, what do you call it, cake? A sponge pound cake.

Yeah, it was delicious.

I was really excited about the Adam Perry Lane of it all because most of my friends that were there didn't know about him. And I don't know what their expectations were at a roller skating rink, how good the barbecue is going to be, but he is one of the best barbecue— he does these pop-ups around LA and there's fucking lines around around the block. Yeah, and he's just there cutting ribs.

At a roller skating rink.

Yeah.

It was really sweet of him to do that. He's a very nice man. He is incredibly nice. I also enlisted him to teach Kristen how to make crepes.

Oh, right.

For Christmas one year, her birthday, I forget. And like got her all the machinery and stuff. And now she knows how to make crepes.

She's stuck with it. She goes through little phases. You know, there's no crepes for months and months and months. And then there's crepes 10 days in a row. She cooks them compulsively. Well, I guess we gotta talk about it.

Well, exactly.

Oh, you should bring that up. She would love to.

I thought I had a craving for crepes like 3 days ago, and it was 9:00 PM, so I didn't think it was possible for me to get it, but I wanted it so bad. And then the next day I told her I was craving them. She said, I'll make them for you. And then guess what the word was on Wordle today?

Crepes.

Plural or singular?

Singular.

Singular.

Isn't that weird?

That's suspicious. So normally this is Delta's birthday party is here every December, and we always get the rink for 2 hours. And it's always my commitment to skate as long as possible because it's such a unique opportunity. But the window of this party was 5 PM to 10 PM, and I was like, I don't— oh, I gotta back up. One other thing that happened, because I didn't know I was having a party, is that day before I rode the furthest I've ever ridden on my new road bike. Oh, I told you, I passed your house a couple different times. Armchair sent me. I was even paparazzi Rotseat. I didn't know it. Oh yeah, I went everywhere. I was down the LA River, down past Spoke, then out in Glendale, then back into Silver Lake. So the— that whole day when I came out and, and he saw him in the pool, I was like, I went too hard, I can barely walk. Then she said, 5 to 10, we're skating. I was like, 5 hours of skating, and we're gonna skate, we're gonna skate hard. And oh, one thing I gotta add is people really went for it with the Yacht Rock theme.

Aaron had an incredible outfit. Outfit.

He really did.

Turnkey, bought off of Amazon.

Yeah, it was perfect. Yeah, it was white, it was white on white on white.

Hat, pipe. The pipe really pushed it over, right? I don't even know why it makes sense.

I don't know. I don't—

I can't like— I'm racking my brain of where I've— some famous image of a captain with a pipe.

I love boat or whatever, but again, I don't even think on Love Boat that was the other one where they're all Shipwrecked, Gilligan's Island.

Yeah, Gilligan's Island.

Did like Gorton's Fisherman have a pipe or something?

Oh yeah, but again, that's a yellow-rimmed cigarette.

This is like the Mandela effect. We all just think we know these captains have pipes, but none of them do.

I don't think any of them do. And how long had it been since you skated, Aaron?

Probably 7 years.

7 years.

I was a lot heavier and I—

You were at 320 at that point.

Yeah, and I remember really 'Cause I was like, I'm gonna do this. And I was real wobbly. And then after a few laps, I was expecting everyone to be watching me 'cause I thought I was that good.

So fucking stupid.

I'm like, oh really? I'm just a fat guy roller skating and I'm old.

But you're waiting for them to notice how fucking good you are.

Yeah, I didn't know your old man.

Everyone's gonna high-five my fucking kids, hoist you up on their shoulders. I probably got beat up the next day.

Well, despite that, you did quite well. And Monica, let me thank you in public. You have sat out the last two skatings.

I have, but then it was your birthday, and so I thought I gotta do it for your birthday.

That was so sweet.

And did it? You did?

I did it. I did like—

you did quite a bit.

I did like 12 laps or something, maybe more.

I think more.

I'd say, yeah, I want to say you were out—

you had 3 different sessions, didn't you?

I had multiple sessions. I even, after eating, I put them back on.

And I learned today, earlier today, that you actually had gone out by yourself to do a little trial run, like the garage in Tennessee.

I did, where I learned to ride my bike.

Yes.

Yeah, I got a little nervous not having been on them for a couple years, and I was first to arrive at the party, um, and so I just went out on my own and did a little practice. Yeah, found my sea legs. I'm not good on them, and I don't— Ryan tried to help me, um, he was like, you know, you go more side to side. I go more front to back, I guess. Yeah, um, it's sort of my proprietary move. Um, so I'm just not very good at it, but it's fine. It's hard for me to not be good at it. But yes, you, you kill it.

I ate shit though, let me say that. So, and then by the way, on the way there I said to Aaron, okay, if you haven't gone in a long time, a prediction for you is you think you're gonna be bad and then you're gonna get out there and go, oh my God, I'm actually quite good. And then you're gonna get overconfident, and then that's when the big wreck comes. And I had been skating for a good hour and a half, 2 hours at this point. I was very loose, I was feeling very confident, and I decided, you know what, as I skate by Joy, um, because she was high-fiving people on the sidelines. I'm like, you know, it's gonna be radical, so I'm gonna blow by shooting the duck.

Oh, is that what you were trying to do?

Oh, did you think I just fell out of nowhere?

I knew you were doing something with Joy, but I didn't know that was—

so for people don't know, shooting the duck, you like, you get on one skate and you bend down. I can't even bend down on one leg if I wasn't wearing skates, especially with the biking from the day before and the 2 hours of skating. And I got halfway into this commitment and realized I'm going going down, and I went down pretty hard on my hip.

Yeah, it's scary.

Luckily you were on the rink at that moment.

I was.

And you were right behind me, so you saw the whole thing.

I did.

Made a loud enough noise that I think most everyone looked.

I missed it.

I don't think so.

I was skating, but I missed it.

Yeah, I don't think so.

I'm not sure if I want— I wish you had, or I kind of— well, I wish I had, but yeah, of course.

You've skated up to me and you go, the fucking duck bit back. I didn't even know that happened.

You got up really fast. You didn't look hurt.

That's the goal.

Yeah, but I knew you were.

And then you didn't— you hadn't seen— you were— you hadn't seen Fall Guy, right? And so, have you seen Fall Guy?

I did.

Oh, what a movie, right?

So good.

Every time this stunt's over, they give the thumbs up like, I'm good. They're not good. Their back's broken. They're like—

right.

So then I was like, I gave the thumbs up, and for the people who had seen it, but you hadn't seen it. And then I felt compelled to try to explain to you my jokes. Yes, I was in a good pain and I'd given you the thumbs up and I needed you to know that was enough.

And I said, are you okay? And then you gave the thumbs up and I was like, nope. And then he had to come back and tell me what in fact wasn't okay.

I was not okay, but I kept going. I was like, is it— is my hip fractured? Maybe it's fractured. Let's just keep going. There's nothing they can do for that. So you can put a cast on your hip.

This is why it's really roller skating is so tricky because you You have to commit if you're going to have fun and if you're going to be good, but then you will fall. So you're choosing—

especially if you try to show off like me.

Well, once you're feeling it, like, everyone's going to try, and that's what I don't do. I just do half because I don't want to fall. Yeah, and I don't fall, so that's great. Yeah, but then there were very few falls last night, right?

In fact, kind of a shocking, um, few falls. Because at Delta's party the first few years, people were going out really bad. People had wrist injuries. It was like 20% of the dads were fucked up the next week.

Anna fell last time.

Yeah, she went down pretty hard. I saw that.

You see it and then you just like, you kind of look away, let people recover on their own.

Well, no, so that's a great— as you know, I like getting embarrassed. And when I fell down at the movies, you know, I was laughing hysterically, but the pain was so sharp. Like, I wanted to laugh because it's just embarrassing. I tried to shoot the duck. Joy watched the whole thing. Her friend's watching. She doesn't know me, so there's a new person. I— at least Joy is my, like, sister. Yeah, I've known her for 12 years. It was painful enough that I couldn't actually get to the laughing part. I just got—

you were smiling pretty big though.

I was performing. I came out of retirement from acting and put on a real good thing, then gave a thumbs up, and only 2 people got it because I thought everyone saw Fall Guy and they had it. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. And then Kristen, somehow— I'm not— I haven't even asked her logistics, but our favorite treat in the world from Michigan is Saunders Bumpy Cake. For people who've never had Saunders Bumpy Cake, it is a chocolate damp devil's food cake base and then these huge ribbons of Twinkie filling all covered in a fudge icing. Did you try it?

Yeah, I did. I hadn't had it before.

Did you like it?

Yeah, I loved it.

That's not your thing?

Oh, fuck yeah.

It was really good.

When we were kids, you didn't love chocolate, right? Yeah, right, right.

I do know I had some for breakfast, and I fucking went nuts.

I had my immune suppressant before the party because I knew we were going to have bumpy cake, and I ate way too much. So I coupled the hip pain with, like, I made myself sick, but then I was like, you must get out and push through all of this. Did another couple of hours of skating. It was a great, great party.

It was a lovely party.

And as I told you, what was really kind of novel about this party, because I've had them in the past, I'm always feeling really guilty, like Tom and he drove 50 miles across town through rush hour traffic to get to the party. And he's older. And then I'm out skating the whole time, and the whole time I'm like, I gotta go sit and talk to Tommy. Drove all the way here. And then virtually everyone that's showing up, I feel like I should be talking to them for a half hour. And then I had this light bulb moment. I was like, everyone here is a blast to talk to. When I look around, everyone's quite happy talking to whoever. I'm not needed here. I can stop feeling guilty. Guilty about that.

Did you have the moment where you were like, oh, all these people I've collected?

Yeah, I tried to have that moment. I did. I was in the bathroom and I actually even did my mantra for like 2 minutes. I was like, I really, I really want to, yeah, have that moment and see that. And then Tom Hansen, who knows me so well, he hugged me and he said, are you able to let any of this love in? And I said, I'm trying real hard, but also I'm pretty sure everyone's here just because Kristen invited them. Like, if I'm being honest, that's so unfair.

That's so unfair to all of us.

To you?

Yeah, I mean, to anyone who went.

It's a little— I don't know, it's still my residual low self-esteem or something.

I don't know. It was the funnest party I've ever been to, and there's no fucking booze there.

That's saying something.

Yeah, I mean, I'm still riding on it today.

I got to push back a little bit. I guess you're not counting your birthday parties, cuz Aaron's birthday is July 2nd, which becomes a Fourth of July Aaron's birthday spectacular. It was often at his dad's farm, and it would be like a 3-day party with 50 people camping. Those were—

those were fun, man.

Fucking awesome. Those were damn good.

Those were good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I'm happy you had a great—

I fucking had fun, man. I had so much fun.

It It was really fun.

So much fun. And I don't want you to get the wrong impression. I, I, I, I did— I felt very loved.

Good.

Yeah.

I mean, when you were blowing out your candle, I looked around and I was like, oh, this is so lovely.

Well, what I thought of many times is like, this is— you'd be hard-pressed to find a better group of 40 human beings.

So it was a really good group. I felt lucky that I wasn't— I had been collected. Oh, over the 50 years. I was happy to be there.

Did you have a favorite conversation with anyone?

I had so many. I One I can't repeat.

Oh, okay.

That was the most memorable. It was with Eric. Yeah, it was funny.

He's so open though. You think he—

I can't because it's not about him. Okay.

Um, I can't wait to hear that.

Jesus, he, he never fails. Like, I think I know every— I think there's not one thing he can say that will get me. And man, he got you. Man, does he. I got tucked in Joy. I ate with her and that was so nice. Hadn't talked to her.

That's what— that I was excited about. That I was more looking around seeing people I love talking to each other and watching you guys chat. I was like, oh yeah, my sisters are chatting. Like, yeah. And she was wearing all Dayglow yellow, like full—

oh yeah, like neon fishnets.

So awesome.

We came up with my superhero name cuz we were of course talking about about spades.

Uh-huh.

And her friend she was with was Black as well. And she's like, "This is the upside-down world. They play spades, we don't play spades." And then her and I came up with that my superhero name is The Appropriator. And my catchphrase is, "I'll take it." I see something from your culture I like, I'll take it.

The Appropriator.

Oh, that's funny. Really fun to talk to Nate and see Nate in such a long time.

Yeah, again, if Nate tucks at a party, what am I worried about anyone finding someone to talk to?

How about you? Did you, did you chat with anyone new that you were like, oh, I loved catching up with all the, yeah, like the old Groundlings, your crew from back then. Like I hadn't seen Ben, Tim Lovestead. Yeah. Yeah. So that was all very fun and super comfortable. Like we all just dove into conversations that were fucking great.

Yeah.

Ben sent me a text like, I talked a lot with Aaron Weekly. It was so fun.

Yeah, it was great.

And that accent. Of course, probably stole the show. He was the same white outfit Aaron had, but his was short shorts.

Oh my God.

Yeah.

And he was very sexy on those rollerblades.

He was so good on those.

Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, best party I've ever been to. Oh man.

It's kind of your birthday too. You get to take, you guys get to share birthdays.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Felt like it.

Yeah.

Kristen did a damn good job there. She did.

She really did it.

She was very worried. She said, "Boy, he's really been talking a lot and that he's very grateful he didn't have a party." And what a loving uncle.

I think she had heard me say like 4 times between my birthday and yesterday, "I'm so glad." I would hate a surprise party. And the poor girl had planned a surprise party.

But what do you think now?

Now that it's happened.

Oh, I'm so happy.

Yeah.

And that just goes to show I'm known better than I know myself in a lot of domains. Like, yeah, I was delighted. As long as I didn't have to go through any of the anxiety of it all, it was absolutely delightful.

Would you have been upset if it was a real surprise? I guess there's no way to know.

I don't think so, but I just, I don't know how you get me to the roller rink.

Exactly.

It's so— I think she would've had to tell. I'm just so annoyingly curious about why would we be—

Yeah, but Tine wasn't gonna tell. Take you to the—

well, that's roller rink. The only thing that had been planned, and I had been tricked on, is that Panay and Nate and I were supposed to have dinner that night. That was the big plan. Oh, and even like on Monday I asked Kristen, can I go to dinner with Nate and Panay? And she's like, yeah. I'm thinking she must have been laughing her buns off. The plan was coming together perfectly. And then so I was both really excited about the party, and then I was like, oh man, I was really looking forward to dinner with Nate. So we just decided we will also go to dinner next week.

Where are you guys going? To Morton's?

I hope we bring George Kittle with us. Aaron and I decided the best compliment you could give any guy is to say like, oh, I'd love to go to Morton's with that dude. Yeah, like if you don't know him, yeah, but you've seen him from afar and you go, fuck, I'd love to go to Morton's with that guy.

I mean, he is a great guy.

I like Dan Campbell. Can you imagine going to fucking Morton's.

Goes directly to Morton's, don't stop. You guys wouldn't even have to say it.

We get there and the food would be on the table.

Oh good, yes.

What's the equivalent? Is there equivalent of that for the gals?

Oh, like the spa? Um, no, there's no chatting. Solo. Yeah, also the mall, I guess.

Oh yeah, shopping.

Yeah, go right to the mall with her.

I'd go shopping with her.

Like, what do you want What are you gonna do with Ashley and Mary-Kate the first time you hang out? Besides tour?

Oh, my pants just fell off.

Exploded.

My underwear fell off. I don't know if I can go shopping with them. That's confusing.

You'd be, I imagine, I would be self-conscious if I were you. 'Cause I'd be afraid everything I said I liked, you'd worry they didn't think it was good style. Exactly.

I guess we would go to their store.

Okay.

And I'd say, can, what do you guys think I should get? I'll pay. And they'll be like, I know you'll pay. We don't give discounts.

We don't fuck around like that.

And then they'd pick out some stuff for me, and then we'd all go have martinis. They would smoke cigarettes. I wouldn't.

Oh man, you want to smoke with them?

No, I've never done it, and even for them I won't. Wow. I'll roller skate for you, but I won't smoke a cigarette for you. Um, so we go to bed early.

Super early. Right away. Yeah.

Anyway, well, it was lovely, and I'm I hope you feel happy today.

Oh, I do.

Just, I took my immune suppressant and I think I have a cold that came back and I think I have a fractured hip, but also just beaming with gratitude. Yeah, I did feel, I felt hungover this morning. In fact, so many times. I don't know if you remember this. Do you remember I got like a really cool sweatsuit for Christmas and a watch and I was at your house, we were in the backyard and I somehow fell and fucking split my lip like wide open when you were little. No, when I was like home for Christmas, and our Christmas started at a certain time, and then we had stayed up till 9 in the morning the day before, and then so I didn't wake up till 5. So I got to Christmas Eve, our big family tradition, quite late, and I just had this enormous bloody scab on my mouth from the night before. We had a lot of those. So anyways, when I woke woke up, I was like, I have a headache from eating all the cake, I'm sick, and my hip hurts. I feel like I was at your house somewhere, 99 or something.

Okay, should we do a little just quick fact?

Some facties?

Yeah, this is for Reid Hoffman.

Okay.

You said that Martin Luther raised literacy rates from 3% to 95%, according to AI.

Okay.

While there isn't a precise percentage readily available to quantify how much Martin Luther raised literacy rates, historical research indicates that the Protestant Reformation Largely driven by Luther's teaching, significantly increased literacy levels across Europe, with some studies showing a difference of nearly 20%age points between predominantly Protestant and Catholic regions. Essentially, areas with the larger Protestant population had substantially higher literacy rates. But there's no percentage.

I'm clearly way off given that percentage because—

but you got it from weirdest people on Earth. Joseph Henrich.

Jo— friend of the podcast.

Andrick, go back and listen to that one. Is our unemployment rate as low as it's ever been? The unemployment rate was 3.4% in January and April 2023, the lowest in 55 years.

55 years.

The last time the unemployment rate in the U.S. was this low was in the first 5 months of 1969. The average unemployment rate during the Biden administration was 4.1%. Really low.

Yeah, very low. A lot of countries have 10% and above.

Yeah, 1984 did come out in 1949, but we think he wrote it in 1948.

Yes, but he had said— Reed, our guest— no, it was, it was '48, which was clever because 1984 was a flip of '48.

And we still think that's true. Yeah, but it did not come out until '49. The price of Bitcoin today is $104,600. $627.70.

Wow, wow, wow, wow. Aaron, did you watch that Greatest Heist doc on Netflix?

Not yet.

Okay, well, in a nutshell, these two incredibly weird people— I don't feel bad saying that—

their names are Ilya Dutch Lichtenstein and Heather Razzlekahn Morgan.

Yeah, so a bit of a clue in their names. And they stole— stole— I always say stoled, that's one of my things. They stole $70— yeah, there they are. Oh man, boy, that photo of him on the left, he might have Stockholm.

This— yeah, this makes me feel sad actually.

Oh, it's not— yeah, you are not happy for either of them. But they stole $72 million in Bitcoin that they really couldn't unload, so they just, they just held it. By the time they were arrested, it was worth $4.5 billion. So it's the greatest theft in the history of the world.

Oh my God, no, I have not seen this.

$10.8 billion.

Now worth $10.8 billion.

If you had $72 million, it was stolen from Bitfinex, or Bitfinex, I don't know, I don't know. And it's a Hong Kong-based virtual cryptocurrency exchange. So that's yikes.

We've had friends that were involved in some thefts of that, right?

Yes, we did. Well, that was of, um—

we have a friend that's a victim of—

a victim, that's what I mean.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yikes.

A lot of money, which I can only imagine what it's worth now, cuz that was what, 5 years ago?

Yeah, it was. Yeah. Oh, I have a thing marked here. So you made a car, you designed a car using AI, and you decided you wanted to show it.

I would love to. W, you want to put on the TV? Cuz you're so good at with that now.

Yep, you can email me it.

Oh, and I'm gonna send you one picture after that of a Ted Seegers poster that I— well, there's two, there's three actually that I really like. Let's see. Oh, I'm gonna send four things.

Oh my God, because then I did something for our show.

Exciting. All on AI?

All on AI.

I played around with some merch stuff on AI. That was fun. Oh, okay.

So, right, so, um, for the listener, yeah, so I want a, um, 15-passenger van for Nashville because we're assume we're always going to have so many people staying with us that anytime we go to dinner, we're going to need like tons of seats. So then I was like, well, I want a 15-passenger G-van, a Chevy, but I want to be John Player paint scheme. I want it wide body. I just said like not a ton of things, and it spit this one out. It's fit 3 amazing ones. Look at that. Oh yeah, that's the John Player livery, famous paint scheme. Isn't it interesting how they fuck certain things up. Like, look at the grill. It's kind of gonna say Chevrolet, but it doesn't. Yeah, yeah, it's weird. And then like there's normal letters on the tires and then weird abstract. And that's the third one. Look at that motherfucker. Can you imagine if I can send it? Here's a weird thing. Look, and I'm only noticing now that it's blown up that big, it's got two gas, uh—

oh, it does.

Yeah, fuel doors. Yeah, two fuel doors. That's weird, right? You see that, money?

You need a lot of gas for this.

Well, probably He knows I'm going to be— have my foot in the kitchen the whole time. Okay, now go, Rob, to the other—

what is John Player?

Was a cigarette brand that sponsored Formula One and racing, and they have this signature black and gold. So then, okay, so I said make a poster for a beer brand named Ted Seegers in the style of Miami Vice.

Yeah, I love this one.

Isn't that great?

That's really cool.

And again, what does it say? It doesn't say Miami. But it says like, almost makes you think it's like a Thai beer or something.

Underneath it just squiggles, kind of like hieroglyphics.

Yeah, get that Egyptian. Okay, now then I said, give me, um, a beer brand, you know, Ted Seegers. I want a muscle car, a motorcycle, and a muscular horse.

This one is a little—

the fucking horse.

I think is ripped.

Oh, this is so funny.

All right, and then I was like, what if, um, a beer brand named Ted Seegers sponsored a, um, hydroplane race boat and it made that? This is incredible.

Yeah, but what's on the side? Did you—

I think it's a—

I think it's barley or hops. Yeah, probably.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, and then look at this beautiful—

that's pretty.

Get that Pretty.

What'd you say? A crow with a cherry?

Yeah, a crow with a cherry in its beak. Okay, but I had to do many to come up with this one. This one took a while.

Did you see this?

What's this?

That's your, um— oh, that was your invite for the party.

Oh, I didn't see that. It says Yuroch Rock, right? Yeah, that's not an H, it's an R. It's Y-U-R-O-C-H. And Captain's Questionable. There's— oh, he's got Sneakers on. He's a jacked crow. This— no, I hadn't seen that. That's great. Look at the vascularity.

Oh my God, that crow is a fucking—

how scared is that other crow that's flying in the background? He's probably flying to get the fuck out of there.

I didn't realize she used AI for it. Oh, she must have. Well, that's that.

That was it. Those were all the facts. That was a fun AI detour. Yeah, unless you're listening, I guess that'll get cut out if you're— I was just thinking if you were listening and you couldn't see any of this, go to YouTube and watch it.

Yeah.

All right, love you, love you, love you.