Transcript of Taron Egerton New

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard, and I'm joined by Lily Padman.

Hi.

This is pop-out, pop-out episode of the year for me. Last year it was Alexander Skarsgård.

Mm-hmm.

This was an equal level pop-out. Taron Egerton.

Oh my, my. We— this whole room was—

we couldn't—

in kind of shambles afterwards.

He put us in a trance. Yeah. Under his spell. Fuck, I'm so excited for everyone to hear this. I really want them to watch it. Me too, because he's so fucking cute and so smart and interesting. Hyper intelligent.

He's great.

I don't even know why he's acting. I mean, he's got a fucking— he's got it all. Uh, Taron, of course, was in Kingsman: The Secret Service, my favorite action movie. Uh, Rocketman, doing an impeccable job. As Elton John. Blackbird, Testament of Youth, Carry On, and his movie out now on Netflix that I imagine most people have watched by now because it's so good, Apex. Check that out. Prepare to be charmed. Taron Egerton. He's an This handsome motherfucker. Holy smoke.

Same to you.

What's up, dude?

Good to meet you. Thank you so much for having me.

Oh yeah, delighted to have you.

Hi, Monica.

So nice to meet you.

How are you?

Happy to have you.

Oh, well, thank you for allowing me to reschedule after I—

Of course.

Thank you for saying schedule.

It's already all working out.

Of the many charming things about the accent, I think schedule is really high on my list.

Thanks so much. I'm glad I'm winning approval already.

Do you say— oh, what's my friend Jethro, the one that really gets me? Oh, do you say controversy or controversy?

I don't know.

I think I code switch depending on who I'm with, because controversy is more like posh, or it might be a bit more posh.

Yeah, it might be when I'm trying to sound erudite and impressive. Yeah, which is normally on a podcast. Yeah, so let's say—

don't do it here.

I love your Range Rover. It's very sexy. It's very titan of industry.

Thank you very much. Thank you.

It's making up for some sort of deficit in my sense of self somewhere.

Oh, you should look in my garage. You'll see the holes are made of Swiss cheese. Yeah, yeah. For me, and I bet it's the same for you, but it's a very specific thing. It was when I was a kid, BMX bikes were everything. I raced BMX bikes. You had to have a Hutch or a GT, and I had a fucking Mongoose, which is fine, but it's not what I wanted. And I coveted it so much And then I wanted a dirt bike. Boys had dirt bikes. I didn't have them. So all of this bullshit is healing.

I think it is that, and I don't think that's just the get-out-of-jail-free card. I haven't really scrutinized why I have a Range Rover, but it's aspirational. I think it makes me feel like I've done good.

Yes. And I think when you grow up broke, you like covet these things because they're so out of your reach.

How'd you know I grew up broke?

I know about you.

He's done his research.

Unless you had the world's only rich social worker mother, single mother.

Yes.

Oh wow.

You have done some research. Assuming that's That's not the case. I'm going to say it was probably a modest upbringing.

It was a pretty modest upbringing, yeah.

You starred in England, yeah?

I did. Well, I was raised in Wales.

But up till 2, you're in England by Liverpool, yeah?

This is exactly right.

So you're just across the body of water from Wales?

That's right.

Okay. And first and foremost, I want to know, because I've heard you state it, you're Welsh through and through.

Do feel that way.

So tell us the distinction between being an Englishman and a Welshman. We've had the great pleasure of interviewing Matthew Rhys. Yeah, Matthew. And then also—

He's the only other Welsh person. Oh, Anthony Hopkins.

Anthony Hopkins.

Yes, I saw that episode.

But what is the distinction?

I guess it depends on who you are. For me, I suppose it means being a little bit of an underdog. So, Wales is a lot smaller than the UK— than England, rather. The thing that springs to mind is that I suppose England is based on a mixture of different people who've come to that country at various different times over hundreds and thousands of years, whereas Wales is a little more ancient. We have a word called hiraeth in Wales, for which there is no English equivalent. And it kind of means a longing for the land. And I think that relationship with place, country—

There's a loyalty there. Yeah.

And a sense that you are one. That you are one with the land, that you're a part of the land, and that there's something—

you're from it, that you're from it. Yeah. Have you ever read a book called Anam Cara by John O'Donohue? No.

It means Soul Friend. It's spiritual wisdom from the Celtic world, and that book talks a lot about man and his relationship, particularly through the prism of Ireland, people from that country's relationship with the land and how it informs their spiritual identity. And I think although we may not have quite the same international literary heritage of Ireland, I think we still have that same cultural connection with where we're from.

Maybe a nice healthy chip on your shoulder too.

Yes, a little bit of underdog syndrome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I would say it, little brother.

No, that's different. I would argue it's the opposite.

How could it be the opposite?

Because little brother energy is like, hey, I'm like you, pick me, I'm just like you, I'm old enough, wanting to belong. This is like, fuck you.

Yeah, right. Little brother, one or the other.

Renegade little brother. We gotta have a whole new little brother energy.

They just have— they need their own identity very badly. Little brothers in general. Are you a little brother?

No, I was raised as an only child.

Okay, nice.

But my mother and my stepfather, when I left home, started again. So, oh nice, I have a 13-year-old and I'm an older brother. Yeah, 13 and 16-year-old sisters.

You have a—

yeah, little sister.

Oh, that's sweet.

Who you've sang with probably somewhere along Instagram.

Yeah, yeah, there's nothing I won't commodify at the moment.

You gotta extract every penny. How else are we gonna get Range Rovers and dune buggies?

What?

Fuck! They're not free. Yeah, so you went with mom. I guess they got divorced at 2, mom and dad?

Yes. So, they weren't married. Had me very young, 23 and 24. I think the writing was on the wall, and my mother left when I was probably 2, maybe nearly 3. And she moved to kind of pursue a new life. I think Wales, and the north part of Wales, has a bit of a romantic notion for people from Liverpool, which is where my family are from, because it's like a very working-class holiday destination. So people who went there as children to vacation grow up and think, that's where I'm going to go. I'm going to go and revisit this place I loved as a child.

And life will be like vacation.

It will be exactly like summer holidays.

Yes.

Yeah. I think that regularly when I'm visiting a place I like to go to and I go like, oh yeah, I got to live here. And then I go like, yeah, you won't feel like this if you live here. Yes. You'll ruin it.

Of course. There's a reason they say grass is always greener.

How long did mom hold on to the holiday spirit, do you suppose?

Well, she's still there.

Oh.

She must have liked something about it. She's still there. In a slightly different part of Wales, a place called Aberystwyth, which is where I kind of did my formative years. And I think she loves it. I think like anything you love, you have a love-hate relationship with it. You know, she hates the short days in winter and all the rain and wetness.

Yeah.

Okay.

So from 2 to 12, you're at the initial place, right, that you guys moved to.

Mm-hmm.

Also, side note, Dad ran a bed and breakfast in Liverpool area.

Yeah.

How often were you seeing each other? What was that like? Distance you had to travel to see him?

So my father and I, when I was growing up, were able to maintain a sort of fairly kind of functional relationship. As I got older, that became more difficult, and I haven't spoken to him for a number of years now.

Okay. Yes, I noticed when you closed your eyes, it's a similar way. At periods of my life, I would have had to tell you about my father.

Hard.

Yeah. Yeah.

My parents got divorced when I was 3. He was a good time, man. He was a fucking— had a Corvette and did coke. He was a car salesman. He was living a very exciting life. And we had a lot of ebbs and flows. The father-son thing's really complicated. I think if you're not constantly in close proximity, I think that compounds an already tricky relationship.

Yeah.

I mean, I'm reluctant to talk in too much detail about him because he's living his own life and doing his own thing. And I'll always love him.

Mm-hmm.

I do love him. I just don't think we work very well in terms of our relationship.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And so there was a point where I pushed the ejector seat and haven't seen him since.

My father died in 2012, but I think what I now notice is, whereas before I knew about all the hurt I was experiencing, and I think now from this vantage point, I'm like, oh yeah, we had just a unique gift to hurt each other.

Yes.

I think we were very similar, more than I ever wanted to admit. And I think the way we got injured and the way we protected ourselves was just like a match made in hell for the most part.

Generally speaking, I find that I am happier and more functional when I try and view everybody else as just trying their best. And with some people that's really challenging. I don't find that challenging with my father. I think he's a guy who wanted to be a good dad.

Yeah, he's fucking 23.

He's 23.

Yeah, dude, if you gave me kids at 100, my kids would be right now telling you I was a shitty dad.

100%. I mean, I feel like maybe I started to grow up about 18 months ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm already 13 years older than he was when he had me.

Yeah. But it sounds like you had a bit of an idyllic 2 through 12. In this place is a 59-letter—

Yeah. You want me to do it? Oh, wow.

I've heard you won't do it. Well, I wasn't even going to ask you because I know it's triggering, but yes.

No, it's become a bit of a party piece, but I maybe have gotten over myself. Çamberpüc Kınıkiko Gerakın Doğubeyhan Çalıoğlu Gökçe is where I—

You got to hit it twice if you're going to do it once, because I didn't catch it the first time.

Çamberpüc Kınıkiko Gerakın Doğubeyhan Çalıoğlu Gökçe. I mean, look, it's a name that is, I think, contrived to create that reaction and generate tourist interest.

Wow.

I read a British GQ interview with you from probably, I don't know, it's probably Rocketman Press, and the actual magazine said he won't say it and it's too many letters for us to even print. He said it's 59 letters long.

Wait, hold on, hold on. I missed the very beginning because I was thinking about dads. So wait, what is that?

That's the town they moved to in Wales.

The village in Wales.

So when people say, where do you live?

You can shorten it to various different—

oh my God.

I imagine like first grade through fourth is just teaching all the kids in town how to pronounce the fucking town they live in.

Exactly.

5 through 8 and learning to spell it.

Yeah. And I was a kid coming from England as well, so I didn't speak the language at that point. So it was a real—

Wow, that's impressive.

Real challenge.

But you got on well there, right? You had a lot of friends.

Yeah, I was okay at that stage. In hindsight, I think maybe being raised by a single mom who was pursuing a degree and trying to make ends meet, through the mists of time, looking back, I think I was possibly a little more anxious than I maybe thought I was aware of until quite recently.

Yeah.

Because I think I'm a fairly empathic guy, single parent, single child relationship, and I think I probably picked up on a little bit of her.

Of course.

But she was a great mom, you know. I never felt that I wanted anything or missed anything.

But you're the only other person in the house, and she's your parent. Of course you're gonna pick up on that.

Yeah, I definitely got a bit of that man of the house, I'm trying to take care of everyone thing, Superman thing, which sounds like an advertisement or advertisement of virtue. But it's not. It's a thing that I'm working on.

Yeah, he has.

Okay, I want to report— I want to pause this all to report, I'm a super fan of Kingsman.

Oh cool.

I've spent hours on here defending Number 2. I've got a compelling argument I'll hit you with later. Okay. But what I want to say to the listener who's not with you in person, you're way cuter even in person. You know, we go one way or another, us actors. It's like we're either not as good-looking as we are on camera, or we're better and I'm shocked to report you're even better looking in person.

And you're very handsome on screen as well. So that's—

man, bless you, Bugs.

I find myself moved by your handsomeness.

That's incredibly lovely. Thank you, thank you.

Are you being moved at all? Are you feeling some movement?

Yeah, yeah, guys, guys, I mean, I thought it was all going to be over when the hair went, but it really is.

I know, it's just nice working for When did stepdad enter the picture? What age were you?

14.

Okay, so that's post-move at 12.

Yes.

And things hit the skids there when we move. Yeah, it's a little rough.

Yeah, that's right. So I moved at 12. It seems to me that around that age of preteen is when people are a bit in danger of abandoning themselves anyway. And we moved from one school to another. My grandmother was in the process of dying. We being there to be near her, I just felt a bit lost and alone. And when you feel lost and alone, I think it's really hard to be outward-looking and forge those connections with people and make friendships.

Well, you don't even know what you're selling them. You're like, you're grasping at what identity I'm gonna pitch them. Do I start with the fact that I like The Who? Do I tell them I'm into this?

Yeah, exactly.

How does it work in the UK? Like, for us, you know, it goes kindergarten through 5th grade, so that's one chunk. You're 6 years in one school, and then you're in a middle school, you're right, 6 through 8. 8, and then you go to high school. So where is 12 there?

So between 11 and 12, depending on what time of year you're born, you go to— we call it secondary school. Well, people probably do call it high school now, but traditionally it would be called secondary school.

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is, were you also bracketing up?

Yes. So I'd done a year in secondary school in the north of Wales, which is already hard.

That's a hard year.

That was a rough year for sure.

That was a rough one. Yeah. And then you moved.

Yeah. I had this horrendous experience where the day where we went to that secondary school, you know, where they give you like a taster day where you go and meet other kids, like an orientation. These two boys whose names I can still remember, who I won't repeat, but I can still remember the names, they just saw me. They saw me fresh meat. They saw me fresh meat and they went for me. And that was the first year, so it was rough.

They marked you.

They marked me. They marked me.

We're going to ride this guy like a rented mule for the rest.

That's right. They saw me for the little feminine, masculine, artsy boy Oh man, um, what was your size relative to the boys your age? I was very small, very small, always very small. My voice didn't break until I was 16. It was rough.

That's not how you want to go and do this.

Girls protected you?

No, I mean, no, I was quite sharp. I was quite funny. I was quite sharp.

Yeah, that works for the girls.

No, I had a rough first year. So then we moved to Wales after that because of my grandmother being sick. It was a couple of years before I was sort of able to find my feet and find my tribe, my people.

Was there ever a comeuppance for the two unnamed gentlemen? Just life for them?

No, I mean, I'm not mad at them.

They were kids.

I don't know. I never heard from them again.

When was your growth spurt?

I kind of caught up a little bit, I think, about 16, 17. I never felt short again, but I've never felt tall either, you know?

Well, you know, yeah, I read a quote where you said, I lost all my friends I had as a child when I moved. I was quite cocky and quite confident, but that was to mask the insecurity I was feeling.

That's why anyone's cocky and confident.

No, I think it's hard to know that though when you're a kid. I didn't ever see through that. Yeah, I was just like, why is this guy strutting around like this?

I think it was unremarkable. There was no extremity of tragedy or anything difficult in my life. I just think growing up's hard.

Yeah.

And it was rough there for a minute. I think I was also a bright kid, and I had a really powerful imagination. And if not an understanding of adult things, I could see grown-ups doing adult things, and I wanted to understand what those dynamics were. So I felt like I maybe stepped outside of the world of being a child a the time when things got difficult. It was just rough for a couple of years.

Yeah, I think it's hard to escape if you're raised by a single mother, as I was. You're out in the world, you become aware of like how dudes are looking at your mom, how people are talking to your mom. That role you somehow subconsciously know is supposed to be being filled by someone else to protect her is now on your shoulders.

Yeah.

And I think it starts down the road of hypervigilance a bit.

I think it gives you a specific relationship with your sense of your own masculinity as well, because my mother is and has always been an attractive woman and I can remember that. Yeah, as a boy.

Oh yeah.

And I can remember the feelings of rage, and I can remember the feelings of inadequacy, and I can remember not knowing what to do with all of that. And probably also wanting her to be looking at me more than them. And you know, all of those.

Yeah, yeah, of course.

Well, and often single mothers— I'm not saying yours was, but also there's a blurry line between child and partner. Like, you are filling in some gaps.

Yes.

Because they don't have anyone there to share their day with, you take on a role that is a little more complex than otherwise. Wise, I think. I remember, dude, my mom has big boobs, and my mom would occasionally wear like a fucking white tank top. And I just remember like, oh fuck, man, we're going to the grocery store, she's in the white tank top, there's gonna be like weird dudes that just start talking to her. And they just like—

I hated it. A kid should have to think about—

No, I think that's maybe— that's right.

You know, but yeah, you're in this position.

Yeah, I'm not gonna say anything to my mom like, oh fuck, Mom, you're wearing the shirt, put a sweater on. We're going to be dealing with all kinds of heat here. It's an interesting experience. And then I don't know about you, but for me, in the absence of a dad going like, good job, little tiger, you're on the road to masculinity. Mine was just like, okay, what are the boys all going to acknowledge as masculine?

Yes.

And I did all of it, but it was all peer-driven. There was no wisdom in the mix.

Yeah, they're making it up as they go.

I didn't follow that route, and I still now, I think when I'm asked about tropey masculine things, I kind of go, oh shit, I'm gonna be found out.

Oh.

And so rather than pursue what you're talking about, yeah, which is that pushing, I think I sort of slightly fell into being a bit introvert for a couple of years there, whereas I'm naturally somebody who's quite expressive and outward-looking, I think.

Well, it's funny is we both have— mine's driven by the fact that no one's confirming I'm masculine, right? It's like this deep insecurity.

Yeah.

So like, yeah, getting out I relate to deeply. Yeah. Despite doing all the things.

Yeah. Yeah. On some level, I still feel that now, particularly I feel it in my romantic relationships and things, you know, it's, it can be hard to, but we're getting real deep here.

Yeah. You were right to cancel the first time. I did want to ask though about the character of cockiness and confidence because again, there's so many ways to evaluate your life. It's like, oh, boohoo this, but it's like, well, that's the skill My hunch is that's a skill that ends up being applied to Eggsy. Like, that's Eggsy. He's trying, and you've already practiced it 100%.

And don't mistake me for a second, because I was aware of that. When you talk about yourself and you talk about your negative experiences, I think in the cynical world we live in, there can be an assumption that you think that your lot was tougher than anybody else's.

Yeah.

And I absolutely do not think that.

You're not giving that off. No, you're not giving a victim off.

I am one of the luckiest people on the planet, and my upbringing was amazing, and it always love filled and great people, but I am also interested in my fucked upness, and I'm interested in how it contributes to who I am, the artist I want to be, the work I want to make.

Yeah, you have to be. Yeah, because as you age, you start becoming aware of these patterns you're in.

Yes.

And these cycles, and then you're required to come up with an explanation.

Yes.

So it's like, I don't think it's self-indulgence, it's actually in pursuit of like transcending these fucking patterns you want to break.

Yeah, I think that's right.

And I don't think it's boo-hoo. It's explanations, not excuses, not pity party.

No. And I'm also very interested in all of the bits of myself that I have a natural aversion to, the bits of myself that I'm scared of, the bits of myself that if you're therapized enough, you would call shadow, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I've done a lot of work in recent years in terms of like 5 or 6 years ago. There is no way I'd have come in here with a shaved head owning who I am. I was still too scared. I was still too worried about my currency as a leading man. I was still too worried about being rejected by women and all of those things. But I've found that work in terms of actively engaging with the parts of myself that I don't naturally feel that great about and aggressively loving them, for a better phrase, has been quite transformative in my life.

Do you know Phil Stutz? I mean, do you know of him?

So Barry Michaels is my shrink.

Are they colleagues?

Yes, they're co-writers.

Oh, okay. So look around your shoulder there. You see that little drawing?

Phil did that drawing for us.

I didn't know he'd been on the show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, okay, so about 4 years ago, I was in New Orleans. I was making a movie called Carry On, and I was sat in my apartment Flicking through Netflix, thank you. And I saw a documentary coming called Starts.

The Jonah Hill.

The Jonah Hill-made movie. And I love Jonah Hill, and I thought there was something that looked interesting and different about it. And I put it on, and something about it really spoke to me. Something about him really spoke to me. And something about Jonah Hill's candor and vulnerability and willingness to put all of his baggage, for want of a better word, front and center. And I still don't know I don't know why, but I text my lawyer of all people. I WhatsApp my lawyer. I don't know why I did this.

Your concierge lawyer?

My entertainment lawyer. My entertainment lawyer.

He's even like concierge. Yeah.

It was so weird. He's somebody that I have a friendship with, but I'm not in the habit of sending him what I sent him, which was a quote from the movie saying, how extraordinary is this? As a soundbite. He sent me a message back immediately saying, "Phil Stutz's practice partner is my shrink, and I could see if he will see you." Wow. And what started was a relationship with Barry Michaels, who he co-wrote The Tools with, and he co-wrote Coming Alive with. And Barry changed my life.

For me, it's the most poignant, beautiful moment of the documentary. They show this picture of Jonah that is virtually his shadow, right? It's everything he thinks is bad about him.

It's little him.

Yeah, it's little him. And he's, he's overweight and all these things. And Phil says, he wants you to take him along and let him experience this with you. And that fucking touched me in a way nothing ever has. Where I was like, this kid I'm trying to hide, man, he deserves to come to the party and I got to be proud of him.

Yeah.

And I just found that very powerful. Is that one of the moments?

I find it moving even as you're saying it. And it's been at the core of all the work I've done. Over the past few years. It really has changed my life in so many ways. And I don't always succeed, but I really try and bring that incredibly awkward, high-pitched voiced kid with the hair over his eye, schlubby, overweight— you know, this year I realized that I round my shoulders because I'm still hiding the weight I carried on my chest when I was like 15. Yeah, yeah, it's wild.

It's like muscle memory. Yeah. Bad kind of muscle memory.

Bad muscle memory. But there's also something really thrilling and exciting and then makes you feel very whole about learning things about yourself. And I don't know that everyone benefits from that kind of wisdom, and it's such a gift, and it's been an amazing thing for me.

You also have to know the things in order to say, I don't need that anymore. That's not serving me anymore.

Totally.

But if you don't know them, if you're not doing the work to know, like, oh, wow, I round my shoulders and it's because of this. If you don't know it, then you can't get past— you'll You can fix it. Yeah.

That moment you talk about in that doc with the photo that's emblematic of Jonah's shadow, it's so fucking hard to love that person. It takes a lot of work. It doesn't just go, okay, I'm gonna love that person now, and it starts— it's like a process of attrition. Because to begin with, if I don't manage the relationship with myself well enough, that part of myself makes me feel ill, you know? Like, I hate it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It robs you of everything in the present.

Yeah. Barry, I don't think he would mind me saying, he also, at this stage in his life, has quite pronounced health problems. He has Lewy body dementia. And watching the dignity and courage with which he's dealt with that adversity has been the single most inspiring, affecting thing that I've ever been near to in my life. And it really does put everything in perspective. And I know that a big way that he's achieved that is through— the shadow work that he prescribes.

Yeah.

Yeah, you're watching him use these tools. He claims they work, and they work.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah, that's wild. I want to meet him.

You should. He's an amazing man.

Yeah. Okay, so you kind of get into acting, right, to make friends? Is that true?

Yeah. That little nadir, to use a grandiose word, but that little period of time where I was a bit lost, I became aware of other people doing drama. And I think I always had that swagger that you mentioned masking stuff, but that really started to appeal to me. Took me a while, but when I was 15, I joined a youth theater. Look, I used to be really reluctant to talk about myself as an artist, and I've completely lost that because acting is the thing that I love most, and I do consider it to be a craft, and one that I will never really understand, and I don't care. I love it. But tracing back to that moment when I first had a taste of it, I remember as being a real inflection point in my life where I was like, this makes sense. There's something large about this that to begin with, sure, was about a bit of attention seeking and probably was about making friends and fitting in.

Yeah.

Finding my tribe. But you know, over the ensuing 21, 22 years, It's the thing that's the most important to me, and started there at that youth theater.

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Totally. When I did that first play You were wearing a cocktail dress. That's right.

A Midsummer Night's Dream.

Yeah, I've told this story too much, but it was a real moment. And it— look, it makes for a great late night moment telling this story of me. I basically had to step out on stage in a dress, and I had so much anxiety and, you know, body consciousness and all this stuff, and my voice hadn't broken. It just all felt wrong.

It was a make-or-break moment in your life.

It was a make-or-break moment. And I stepped out in this dress to Adoring laughs. And I just was like—

Thank God.

In my memory, in my mind's eye, I sort of processed myself kind of looking around going, "Hang on, this is—" You know? It was amazing. And I've loved it ever since.

Why have you been reluctant to talk about acting before? You just thought it was silly?

You know, we're all a mess of contradictions. I think, particularly as a younger person, I did have a kind of cockiness and a swagger, but I also have a kind of classic British tall poppy syndrome thing, which runs completely in the face of it. Where I sort of both have wanted to be the center of attention, but then I'm also embarrassed about it, right?

Yeah, you Brits have really figured out how to torture yourself.

We're pretty good at fucking ourselves up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we like to judge everyone else for their music taste and that kind of thing.

The notion that the Great British Empire would have tall poppy syndrome is already the most ironic condition that the fucking country that taken over the world could have. Maybe it's some residual guilt of that, like some— probably, probably. So you get into the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art at what, 17 or 18? I was a bit older.

I was 19. Okay, 19.

Yeah. All right. Because you didn't get in and then had to wait a year.

I did a round of auditions, no joy, and experienced what was probably one of my first real, like, little ego deaths and had a little moment to reflect.

And the second year I got in. My guess would be like you were pretty hot shit in school and that you get kind of humbled dramatically by not getting in.

It wasn't that I was hot shit. I don't remember feeling like I was I was ever in a league above anybody else that I was doing acting with or drama with. But I think I had, in general, a sort of slightly cavalier attitude of invincibility to things at that age, that I think walking into an audition room where they probably want a sense of somebody being serious about the craft and grown up and mature, I probably read as being a bit whatever, you know? Yeah. So they put me in my place a little bit, I think. I think.

So in between school and Kingsman, you're on a TV show, you do a little bit of work. Yeah. But obviously this Kingsman thing, that was insane. Yeah, this happens once every 5 years where a new actor gets in a mega worldwide hit and it's overnight. I presume you had an agent at the time. I did. And they called and said, you're gonna go read for this thing.

Yeah, I was in Holborn in London and I was filming a TV show called The Smoke, which is about firefighters in And I can remember the street corner I was on. We were filming in an old arts building, which had been repurposed as this fire station. And I was on the end of a street, and I had got this email through about something that was called Huntsman and— Oh, Huntsman and Son. And I wasn't sent the script, I was sent two sides, but it was a scene in a pub with Harry Hart, Colin Firth, and one other also with that character. I read those two scenes, I was struck by a certainty. I just knew. I was like, "This is my part." Oh, wow. I've had that one other time, actually, but many, many years later. But I remember it as kind of clicking into a mode, and it feeling like, you know, like when you're, I don't know, preparing for some live event or creative pursuit, and you feel like you're drawn into a kind of inexorable bit of momentum, and you can't get off the ride, and all of your being is channeled towards this one thing.

That's what I felt like about that test. I didn't know anything about who was involved. I just knew that it really zinged off the page. Even at that age, I was 23. Went along to Warner Brothers Studios, Leavesden, which is where they filmed all the Harry Potter movies, and they were setting up to do the movie. And I somehow got a recording, a taping, with Matthew Vaughn in the room. I don't know how I managed to get there. He arrived 45 minutes late, and I was nervous, but I was also— possessed by something. And I read for him, and I remember he didn't look at me once during the audition, which I can remember feeling furious about. Yeah. Ah! And that probably manifested somewhere in that attitude that that character has. And yeah, that started a process of several weeks of auditions where, you know, I got to read the full script, learned that Samuel L. Jackson, Colin Firth, and Michael Caine were attached. It was mad, really. It was a really mad time.

Do you think your brain compartmentalized in a helpful way where you were able to ignore the stakes of that?

My own experience has been that my relationship with stakes has shifted as I've gotten older. Someone recently sent me a video of me singing with Elton. I don't recognize the guy who did it. You know, I'm like, "Wow, how did I do that?" Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But at the time, I was like, "This is a movie I want to see." And that's the best feeling when you're an actor auditioning for something or hoping to be a part of something, is like, if you feel like you're making something that you, yourself, would want to go to the movies to see, that's absolutely correct. Yeah. You know, that's the right reason to be somewhere. And that's what I felt. And Matt obviously liked me, and we went through all of these various different tests and readings, and I ended up— getting the part, it was insane. It was life-changing. And it's funny, in some ways it feels like last year, and in other ways, it was 13 years ago.

Yeah. Wild. Matthew Vaughn has said some interesting things about casting you. One being, he liked that this would be overwhelming for you. He liked that this was too big of an opportunity for you because that is exactly what Eggsy was going through. He's this street kid with a fucked-up family, and now he's in the elite of the elite world of privilege and money. And espionage— all this stuff so that was like a quality he thought he could mine for it.

No one outside of our industry wants to hear that it's hard to make a movie. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I'm not going to say it's hard to make a movie, but that was one of the more challenging creative episodes in my life.

Isn't it great to have that as your first? Because then for the rest of your career you're like, oh, it's not that hard.

Nothing has been as hard as that one.

Yeah, yeah, same thing.

Even this last one tied A-Max. Are you kidding me? SAG AFTRA!

I've got equal billing to Charlize Theron. No, that was a tough job. Matt's— I think he's softened a little bit over the years, but at that stage he was still pretty old school, you know. He's coming out of that Guy Ritchie '90s. I would flatter myself that I might have had an effect on him over the years. He's slightly softer than he used to be. But at that time it was like, this is what you're doing, this is what you need to do, and this is how it's going And it was tough.

But again, it's kind of great because what Eggsy's going through is exceedingly tough.

Life is tough, you know? Life's light and shade. And that's one of the things that Barry actually is— you'll know this from talking to Phil Stutz and the Tools, the idea that pain and negative experiences are something that grow if you back away from them. And the more that you move towards them and attack them, the smaller and more manageable they get. It's an absolute truth. And time and time again, It's that thing, you know, the most obvious pedestrian one is, "I don't feel like going and doing hot mat Pilates this morning. I want to lie here and drink coffee in bed." But you go and do it, the gates to the kingdom open when you leave, you know? I do think it's an absolute truth. And you're exactly right, Dax. My experience of making Kingsman at the time was overwhelming. It was the best training ground because nothing's been anywhere near as difficult since. And also, the thing that I— my experience about it, that is one of the things that's harder to explain, is the thing about acting is that it eludes you most of the time. It's not like you show up and you do this thing and you're fucking great at it all the time.

Like, I'm shit at it most of the time. Now, the filmmaker, if they're any good, makes sure that they pick the bits where you're really good, so you look like you're good, but you've spent 90% of your working day being fucking frustrated and annoyed with yourself. Because you can't achieve that thing, the flow thing, where you're like, oh, I'm cooking here, I know what I'm doing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's hard for a number of reasons, but I love it. I probably love it for those reasons because it does elude you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now, in the movie, Colin Firth is very much your mentor, and I was curious, do you have the disposition where you can avail yourself to mentorship? Because like, if I were you and I was in that situation, I probably would have missed a great opportunity to be mentored by him. No, Colin was amazing.

I remember I was going through a difficult time.

I broke up with my first girlfriend.

And I was really aggressively partying to deal with it and was coming in in a bad way. And I remember there were a couple of days on Kingsman where Matt was like, "You're going home. I can't film you today." And Colin was amazing. He was never anything other than kind of gentle and fatherly and understanding. I actually found it and read it a couple of years ago because I'd never read it, but I remember him getting me a copy of Rilke's Letters to a Young Poet. The Young Poet, which is an amazing collection of letters from Rainer Maria Rilke to a young aspiring writer who admires his work. And I would recommend it to anybody. It's just the most beautiful advice for life. And Colin bought me a beautiful edition of it at the time that I did not have the fucking bandwidth to look at. But I later found it on the shelf, and a couple of years ago, read it and was like, "Man, this was an incredible act of generosity." And he was always lovely to me. And when he saw the movie, I always remember what he texted me. He said, "You are note perfect." Oh, he's such a generous, kind man.

You know, one of the reasons I would like to make another installment is because it would be fun to get to ride with Colin once more.

Yeah. Yeah. Your performance is astonishing for a first movie of that size and scale. It's astonishing. Thank you. Yeah. I obviously had no clue who you were, and at the end of that, I was like, yeah, well, everyone was like, I'm in. I'm in. Yeah. Yeah. Do you learn some parkour? How good were they with the stunt doubles? No way, man. No?

Okay. No, that's Damian Walters, who's an incredible gymnast, stuntman, now director. Greg Townley. There's a lot of people making me look very good in that movie.

How did the ego handle the enormous success of that? That's a pretty light-switching moment.

Honestly, I never felt like I had the moment of arrival. If I'm completely candid, I was in incredible shape for that movie. I think for the first time in my life, I felt really beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was completely intoxicating. And I was like, "Oh my God, I am ripped." Yeah. "I've got this jaw. I've got all this hair." I mean, the hair was starting to go, but I had enough. And I felt invincible. And when we finished the movie, I just went bang the other way, and I gained so much weight. And that really has been a feature of my adult life. In my 30s, I've kind of got a handle on it, but in my 20s, I never really felt like the movie— I never felt like, "Well, now I can go out and enjoy this," you know? Because I didn't feel camera ready ever. So, I never felt like I really got that moment to be strutting around. I never did. And then again, you know, I don't want to sound like, "Woe is me." That's just my path. We all have our battles to fight, but that was my own personal experience of my own success.

I would say, I bought a little place in my hometown. I would live there. I would then go away and film. I think in the face of that success, my instinct was slightly to withdraw a little bit.

Do you think you'd do any self-sabotage? 'Cause even when you said during filming and you were partying, and that's your huge opportunity, you know? It sounds like maybe there might have been a tiny bit of, "I don't deserve this." I don't deserve this, so I'm gonna do a little self-sabotage.

Maybe. I don't know. I definitely was flagrant with the opportunity with regards to what I would do on a Friday, Saturday night. I'd be dialed during the week, and then I would fucking go for it on the weekend.

I mean, most of us do, but when you're in that position—

Oh, we could have had some real fun if I could have time traveled with you back in the day. Yeah. I really relate to that, though. Ever experiencing the moment of arrival. I remember watching American Idol one season, or I watched multiple seasons, but this one time we were watching it and I'm on the couch with my wife. And once they make it to, I don't know, maybe it's the bottom 3 or whatever, the top 3, they go back to their hometown and they take a ride in a convertible and the whole town cheers for them and they weep uncontrollably because clearly they're experiencing it. I'm like, why have I never had that feeling? Yeah, I don't feel like it ever happens in some way.

No, I don't know that that's really happening for them either though. I mean, yeah, that's the awful prison of those kind of shows is you're being presented an idealized version of things that does not fucking exist.

Yeah, you get your dreams and then you're filled with elation. And I was like, where's the elation?

You know, there were other ways that it was incredibly satisfying and life-changing in terms of being able to buy a house and do things for people I cared about and experience an incredible uptick in in lifestyle, but I never had that thing where I felt like, now I'm the guy and I've made it.

I'm the shit. Yeah. I have to ask one question about Tom Hardy because I'm pretty obsessed with him.

What is it about him that you're obsessed? His talent?

He's so talented. Yeah, there's just these scenes in Peaky Blinders that are just so next level. They'll have the dialogue, they will have the upper hand, they will be delivering this thing, and he has a presence where you go, yeah, they don't have the upper hand. He can't not have— like, there's something intrinsic about him. Talk about masculinity and my obsession with masculinity. He seems to embody all these things that if I were just like him, it would have been an easy ride. So I think it's very much fantasy. Yeah, I think that's right. But also, I admire— I think in my moments of insecurity, my instinct is to go bigger, try to command control through volume and dominance. And I guess I'm intrigued by his his opposite approach almost always to what you think is going to command that. So I find that fascinating. And yeah, and then I'm just intrigued by what's really— I don't know, I'm so curious about that dude. But at any rate, you worked with him right after that? Yeah, I did. Was he already kind of legendary status?

He was, he was. Yeah.

And were you intimidated at all?

No, I wasn't. I've thought a lot about that time because he is intimidating.

He's also playing the craze, right?

He was playing the craze. I had a kind of slightly an odd angle to Tom because we were depicting a bunch of guys in a hyper-masculine world playing gangsters, but I was playing his lover, Ronnie Cray's lover. So my job was kind of to subvert it all. And Brian Helgeland, who directed it, was very open to us improvising and trying things out, which Tom loved. And I kind of grabbed that bull by both horns as well. I have all of my insecurities and all of my fears, but one thing I'm not worried about is I believe in myself as an actor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And So, I think in that environment, I felt really excited to work with him because he's this unpredictable— He's a heavyweight. Yeah, he's a heavyweight. And, you know, as anyone knows, you're only as good, really, as the person you're opposite. And it's a dance, and he was someone I was really excited to dance with. And he and I got on really well.

And your character, I would argue, if you're his lover, you are the person in his life that doesn't think he's so intimidating that you're afraid to get intimate.

Yes, exactly.

So, it's almost like we've wired on you you to be in that mindset of that, to not be fearful of him, or you wouldn't trust him. There's a scene—

it never made the movie, but I was so pleased with myself. There was a scene where he murders someone and gets back in the car, and I was sat in the back of the car waiting for him, and I grabbed his face and I snogged him. And it wasn't in the script. I can remember backing off from him thinking, how will this land? But I think he He loved it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think— I think— I have not seen him for 10 years, but at the time, I think he quite liked my chutzpah.

Yeah, that's ballsy. Yeah. Okay, so obviously, the thing I'm most curious about after that is Sing. Had you been singing? Where does the singing come from?

Singing's a big thing in Wales, so I did choir stuff in school. Loved singing. My real father's musical, and so that probably had an effect as well. I think I was introduced to music very young. There was always music being played. Because I auditioned for that. It was in 2015, I think, I got that audition through. And I did know all the people involved, and it was an incredibly illustrious cast. And I went along and sang— I think I sang "These Arms Are Mine." I sang Otis Redding and ignored what Garth had asked me to— the director, the options he'd sent. I got the part, and it's been a really lovely thing to be a part of. They're such good movies, I think. You can say that when you're voicing in something because you've really so little to do with it. You know, it's— Wow. Is it—

yeah, you have a very interesting relationship with this. Like, you don't even feel like you're in the movie. That's right. You know they made a movie for 2 years, but you certainly weren't a part of that. So it's almost like disorienting when you hear yourself in the animated thing. Yeah. Oh, that's right, I'm in this.

Yeah, you feel like an ambassador for the movie rather than actually being in the movie.

Yeah, it is. It's really interesting. I only want to talk about Golden Circle. I'm just gonna give you my defense of the movie. Go I was on a tirade, Monica, remember? Yes, we saw it together.

You did? Yeah, it's the movies to see it together.

We did with our friend Jess, and Dax spilled popcorn everywhere, and it was a huge deal.

It was— I had a huge fall.

I had a huge fall and popcorn went everywhere at the beginning.

Comically large portion of popcorn too. It was like a couple gallons.

How did you respond to the fall?

He died laughing.

Before I even hit the ground, I was laughing at how ridiculous that looked because I threw like a 30-ounce drink and a 90-ounce popcorn. If we were at 120 frames, this would be so enjoyable to watch this fall for about 3 minutes because it's spectacular. And it's in front of all these people, and I've landed on a greasy popcorn, you know, famous, you know, there's a lot going on.

This is perfect.

This is as bad as it can go. I kind of loved it, weirdly. But at any rate, I read some reviews, and my anger was simply this. I compared it to automotive journalism. Most writers at Car and Driver and Road and Track, they don't want to own a Honda Accord. They didn't get into writing about cars because they love Honda Accords, but they have some integrity where they'll acknowledge, hey, all these things go 300,000 miles, the fit and finish is off the charts. You know, you'll get a review that they understand why that is a great fucking car, whether they like it or not. And my frustration often with reviews of movies is like, if it's not your type of movie, but you cannot discount the masterclass of directing that's on display. Like, you have to acknowledge, if you know anything about movies, what went into that movie and how well it was executed, you know, as a physical product. You must acknowledge that. You can then go on to say it's not my cup of tea or it's not my sense of humor, whatever, but just the full disregard of this thing and ignoring how much skill was on display and acting talent was on display and great music.

I'm like, there's no integrity to this whole review thing.

It's a tough one, isn't it? Because you, as an actor, it almost feels taboo to acknowledge any kind of relationship with critical evaluation and review, right? It's like you should pretend it's not happening. And of course, how many of us are successful at that? Exactly.

Even if you ignore it, it'll get to you.

Yes, it'll get to to you. The movie I just made is the first experience I've had where I got through it without succumbing to the temptation and reading them. It's the first time in my entire career that I've done it.

Yeah, I didn't read one.

Look, I share your frustration, and the thing that has been my experience of it that I think is quite specific to my time is I feel like the integrity of it is compromised by the means through which you consume the review. A fair, balanced appraisal of something coming from a place of goodwill does not make for good clickbait. Exactly. So, you have to understand the myriad of complex motivations there are in writing something. Everybody's fallible, everybody's coming from their own subjective experience, everybody has an agenda. My best mate— I can't remember what the movie was, but he worked with me for a time. He traveled with me and worked with me as an assistant, and I'm thankful to say that our friendship survived it. I spoke to him on the way here, but I always remember him saying, saying to me once, there was a movie that we were both interested to see, and I said, bro, it's got shit reviews. And he went, I don't fucking care. Yeah, yeah, I made my own mind up. He didn't say it even with that bit of vim and vigor that I said it, right? He didn't say it to prove a point.

Yeah, he said, I don't fucking care, I'll make my own money. Yeah. And I thought, wow, what a statement of integrity. And I think that that is something that I've tried to practice well and repeat to myself at the times where— because we all slip into the mode of thinking that external affirmation, validation is going to be the that makes us whole. And actually, it never is. It's turning to yourself and going, well, how do I actually fucking feel about this? And I think I just can't imagine— maybe I can imagine. I just think the desire to eviscerate something is an impulse that is worthy of scrutinizing. Yeah, why? Why? Sure, this is a pithy bit of writing, and yeah, you've managed to completely undress this thing a large group of people have spent a couple of years making, but I don't know how much real value it has.

Yeah, and I think it contributes to this issue we're having in this country, definitely right now, where it's like, if you like this, you're stupid, you don't get it. And it's like, oh, I guess I shouldn't like that. It's creating this division between like intelligent people and not intelligent people, or like classy people and not. And it's like, this is not good for us. This is already such a problem. And these critical pieces are not helping. I think it's pushing a lot of people.

I've never thought of it that way. It's not good. Completely agree. Things are made for different reasons, for different people at different times. And I'm a different person today to who I was yesterday, and I'll be a different person again next week. And yes, Sometimes I have the kind of bookish filmmakerly appetite to watch something brilliant that was made in 1972 by someone that I should have watched. And sometimes I want to watch a kind of goofy Eddie Murphy movie made in the '90s because I want to just decompress. And that's—

yes, it's all valid. Yeah. Yeah.

I think the thing that's going on— I totally agree with you, Monica— is like, I think because of the political identities got so massive over the last decade that that now is the muscle memory of like, oh, I got to declare my identity all the time. And I declare share it on that thing. I had this situation where I had watched Justin Bieber singing at Coachella, just him on stage and a microphone, and I was so blown away by it and moved by it. We're all hanging out and someone's like, oh yeah, I heard it's like he didn't even fucking do anything, he made $10 million. And it's like Sabrina Carpenter had this whole thing, this whole takedown of him, which by the way I had seen simmering online, and I I was like, yeah, I just don't know how you could watch that and not feel the authentic power.

That's exactly why it rocks, because it's stripped back and it's him being honest. Yeah.

And she goes, I haven't seen it because it was only live, blah blah blah. And I was like, yeah, that's what happened. The silo she's in had declared that as a money grab and this and that, and she hadn't seen it, but her tribe, that was the synthesis. And I don't blame her, I do the same thing. But I was like, yeah, that's kind of what happens a lot of times. Their chamber declared a verdict, you got to go along with it because that's your tribe and it's all about tribes.

I think the idea of declaring an identity is, in some respects, it can be a really powerful thing, certainly for traditionally marginalized groups of people. And I totally get the power and the importance of that. But I think that on a different level, the idea of declaring anything about oneself as being fixed and absolute is sort of preposterous. And I hear myself do it sometimes. I go, I'm not really that kind of guy. I'm not a kind of guy who does this. And I hear myself and go, what the fuck are you talking about? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Weird narrative are you writing about yourself as you go along? Like, you're a mess of cells in a swirling chaos. We're trying to derive security from something. Yes, some permanence. I am this, I am this fixed thing.

Yeah, it makes us feel safer.

Yeah, yeah. It feels like you've anchored into bedrock, but all you've anchored into is something that's not going to change and evolve as the context should demand that you change in a ball.

Actually, exactly.

I think— and by the way, I love capitalism. You've benefited well from it. Yes. And I think it brings the tech and it's raised the overall starvation rates and infant mortality. I think it's the best system we got. So I'm not critical really of capitalism. With that said, I think what's fascinating about capitalism is like, how long will it take before people themselves are a product? And that was a kind of an unimaginable scenario until social media. Yeah, because you literally have a billboard. And on the billboard, you know, because you've watched every other product, the product declares what it does and what it doesn't do and how it's opposite of that. Those advertisements, or advertisements, are declarations of what the thing is. And so we have just modeled our now presenting image online as a product. So we got to declare what we are and what we're not, and it's all very fixed and ridiculous. But I think we've become products in way.

And meanwhile, none of us know who we are or what we're doing or how the fuck we're gonna move forward, and we're all having mini existential crises several times a day. And these are huge questions that are way above my pay grade, but I know that for my own self, I'm kind of excited by my own capacity to change and be different from one moment to the next. And I think there's tremendous power in not allowing yourself to be too fixed or brittle or rigid in in your sense of who you are.

Okay, a lot of funny suspicious things along the way that add up to things where you could get suspicious we're in a sim. I would argue, you know, Elton John being a cameo in The Kingsman and then you having to sing for Sing really adds up quickly to you being in Rocketman.

Yeah, I wish I'd read actual Jung, but I haven't. But you know, he talks a lot about synchronicity, and that is one that that kind of came up for me. I auditioned for drama school singing Elton as well. Oh really? When I was 18.

And you sing Elton and Sing?

And I sing Elton and Sing. It's suspicious. It is suspicious.

Will you ever let yourself go down a fun effervescent fantasy about the suspicion? Like, ah, there may be a little charmed magic dust floating around?

I think I like to— back to the ideas of certainty and rigidity— I like to remind myself that my perception of the world is entirely fallible because my eyes are my eyes. And actually, who knows what forces are at play in the universe? I saw the Tony Hopkins episode, and when I first met him, he told me about his fascination with Jung's ideas around synchronicity and how the song "Procol Harem" has followed him around, and he feels that there's significance and meaning to it. I like the idea that there are things at play in the universe that we don't fully understand. And I think I used to be somebody who had a very kind of staunchly atheist quite certain view of things that were quite stark and quite chaos-driven. And I don't feel that way anymore. I don't know what's going on.

Yeah, there's a freedom to that. Yes.

And I also feel that when I believe in a benevolent universe, the universe gets more benevolent. That's right. Yes.

When all of us humans, it's a very well-established bias, confirmation bias. Once you have a theory, you only see things that confirm your theory and you exclude all other evidence. Evidence. If you want the real view of the world, you almost have to let go of any fucking theory because you'll miss everything else that doesn't confirm that theory. Yeah. God, we're cutting so deep right now. I don't even know what— should this be in a philosophy class? Should this be part of a curriculum? Anyways, Rocketman. I know that the Kingsman were harder, but Rocketman is the biggest swing you maybe ever take in your life. I don't have the balls for that, even if I could sing. Really? No. You know what, I think it didn't feel like that at the 'Cause can you recognize now it's like a fucking swinging for the fences? Not to drop a baseball metaphor on you, maybe a thunder pitch.

What do you do on a pitch? Yeah, it's just the opposite of my masculinity. Absent father, forget it. No, there was something to do about the fact that it had a musical component and it was about somebody incredibly dysfunctional. A lot of the dysfunction I related to in terms of who he was. It just felt like a chance to express me. I'm really proud of that movie, and I always will be. And I am proud that people who like Elton John like me in that movie. But I only ever really felt like I was expressing me. I was playing Elton John, but I also just felt like I was going, I'm going to use Elton John to slightly express something about who I am.

Yeah, Elton John was like the outfit you put on. Yeah, a little bit. He encouraged you to not do an impersonation, right? He said, go be you. Is that liberating?

Yes, absolutely. And he's a brilliant creative person, and I think he understands that in order to do something well, you have to feel a degree of ownership and authorship. Nobody's going at any point, "Oh, Elton John wouldn't have turned his head that way in 1981 because he was doing this or wearing that hat." It's like, who gives a fuck? The point is that we're trying to capture the spirit of who somebody is by recognizing commonality between myself and him. And it was a totally beautiful experience. He's still somebody that I care about enormously. And I will always, always be thankful for it. And I could not be more proud of the film. I loved making it.

It was just awesome. It's a mega accomplishment. It's crazy. Thank you. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We're going to skip everything else because I've taken so much of your time. We're going to go to APAC. Apex. I watched Apex and my mother was in town visiting. She and I watched it together. She hates it. No, but I've never seen her have an experience in a movie like this. It was thrilling. I was so distracted by her. She's like, oh, oh, oh, Daxter, this is— this might be too much. Oh, oh, oh, just get her off the cliff. Why is she gonna— oh, oh, here he is. Yeah, like, she— yeah, visceral. Yes, her arousal setting went to I loved it right out of the gates. I'm sure you don't know this about me, but I fucking love men's bodies more than anything in the world. Really?

You're in very good shape. I love muscles so much. Yeah. What is it about it, do you think?

Well, for me, I'll explain it as like being born in '75, and my first drive-in movie was Conan the Barbarian. I was just like, wait a minute, a man can look like a gorilla? And then Stallone was at his height. It was like the birth of muscles.

It's worth being wary of that though, I think, because that version of me in Apex, the guy who's whatever city body fat I was and all kind of, you know, strong. Every day I punish myself for not looking like that. But the truth of the matter is that I starved myself.

Exactly. You were probably miserable.

And I was running myself absolutely ragged to get there. And Barry once told me, and it's such a great soundbite, but the idealized version of yourself— look, I don't want to get too heavy. You were talking about muscle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Said to me that the idealized version of yourself, the kind of hero version of yourself, your job is not to aspire to it, your job is to smash it. Oh wow. And I love that. Yeah, it's been a great, a tremendous help to me. It's one of the things that is a challenge that nobody wants to hear about, but fluctuating relationship with your own images.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We all have that.

That's universal.

Yeah, yes, absolutely.

I'll hit you with my current understanding my fascination. One is just, I grew up in a house with a violent stepdad beating everyone up, right? So when I saw Conan, I was like, oh, if I look like that, I got no problems for the rest of my life. So that was like, yeah, fuck, if I was Conan, I got no problems. Mom can wear her fucking tight tank top all she wants, you know? Yeah. Second, and I think this is the true thing that intrigues me about muscles, is it's rare that you can see a visual display of someone work ethic and dedication. And as someone who— my shadow is you're a lazy piece of shit who's undisciplined. To conquer that is to me the ultimate goal. I can see there's some dedication here, there's some execution, there's like real commitment, there's struggle. This is the proof of making oneself suffer. Yeah, for a goal. Kind of forget the goal. In all honesty, at this point for me, I don't make myself miserable. I eat in a way that like works for me, that I'm not miserable at all. That's so good. I work out all the time because I'm a nutcase.

And it's my medicine. And the esteem I get from knowing I did the thing I didn't want to do is joyful. Yeah, I love it.

And I feel the same way. I've always loved to move, and I, I'm a little bit at odds with the world if I'm not doing it. But it's complicated, and it's all tied up with food and all that shit, which we all struggle with. Yeah, it's toxic. The tiny moments in my life where I've looked like I did those shirtless days in Apex, or I did a show called Blackbird, or in the first Kingsman. Those days, I just was filled with self-loathing. Yeah, I couldn't enjoy it at the time because I'd completely lost any distorted sense of perspective. Also, it ain't that deep. You bounce back, you carry on, it's fine. It's just what it is, you know?

How about the attention you get from other men too? Isn't that hysterical?

That's the thing, women do not give a fuck.

Nope. No, we both know that.

They don't care. That's an established fact at this point.

In fact, sometimes it's like, yeah, in the way you're saying it's apparent when you look at someone's body, it's like, God, they really care about how much— it's not, it's like, oh, they— it reads as vanity.

It can't. They don't know I'm on an internal battle for self-discipline.

Yeah, sure, sure. But you know what I do love? There was a slightly different type of training I did for that movie. It was much more functional than just getting pumped up. And I felt so fit, it felt amazing, you know, that just the joyous feeling of your body's just primed. Yeah, great.

Yeah, peak, like what it can get to.

Yes. I used to have a picture on my wall when I was about 15 that I drew because I used to love drawing. I drew that classic Arnie shape and would write, I will get to this shape in X number of days. And I know I'd mount a chin-up bar in my room and, and I had no notion of how one achieves anything like that. Yeah, yeah. And it's crazy, you know, that kid to think that years later I would potentially be the model for another 15-year-old kid whose head I'm fucking up by achieving an unrealistic body type. No, but you know what, I feel like it's a part of the job and it's fine. Yeah, I feel like during things like this I do feel an impulse to say that it's a moment in time that you sweat for and you restrict the amount of food you eat for to get your body fat down, and there's a lot of pain. And while moving well and using your body is a prerequisite and it's important and we should all do it, that doing tons of rigorous, aesthetic-driven work is a path that can fuck you up.

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah.

And I think there's a responsibility to say that sometimes. And also, it's diminishing returns. Like, right now, I think it's nice to think I can run and I can move, but who knows in 25 years what is it going to be able to do? And what I refuse to do is turn into the person who hates their form as they age and change, you know, because the temptation is it's so there. And I do think you see it in people when they develop a kind of sense of being at odds with their own form. And I want to enjoy what it can do right now, and I want it to stay malleable and functional for as long as possible. But I also want to accept it as it shifts over the coming years, and I want to love it when I'm 75 and it maybe doesn't do as much as it used to do.

Yeah. I'll let you know if it's possible. I'm a bit further down the road. I'll tell you. Send the message back. Yeah. The Aussie accent that you have in there, to me it seems like you have a leg up on Monica and I trying it. Although to you, probably it was a nightmare.

I worked with an incredible dialect coach named Felicity. I think Felicity's surname begins with a J. I think it's Jurd.

Sorry, Felicity. Felicity Jurd is right. It is right. Yep. Oh, you're right.

My God. Wow. This is an operation.

There's 23 people in the backyard right now.

I'm impressed. We did a lot of work. It is just a really tough one, and people warned me before. The studio, in fact, were very like, we'd actually be happy if you did it British, we would like you to be British. And I was like, well, that's not really what I want to do. But I remember I got a certain way into the process and it wasn't quite clicking in in the way that it has when I've done certain American dialects and things. Anyway, look, I think I got away with it, but it's a tough one.

As an American watching, I feel like you nailed it. I haven't run it by any Aussie friends of mine, but I was like, oh, this is impressive.

It's hard to know whether people are lying to you, but I feel pretty good about it.

The whole thing with an accent is so dicey in my opinion, because I remember doing a movie and I can't even fucking remember what was set in, and they got a dialect coach for me, and I started going down the path. And maybe I'm just a quitter or I'm fearful, but I was like, this is making me way too self-conscious. I can't even think about what the scene's about. I'm thinking about where you showed me on the piece of paper, I'm changing this vowel to while, and I'm like trying desperately to understand why I care in the scene. Or the other things I had to make a call, maybe because I don't have the skill set, I was like, I can't prioritize that because it's going to take a toll on this other thing I care more about.

But I think we're all different, we all have different skill sets. Yes. Yeah. There is no fucking way that I am ever getting up and doing stand-up in front of everyone. I respect and see it for the extraordinary feat of artistry it is and daring. There's no fucking way I'm ever doing it. I'm not interested. Yeah, yeah. I don't want to go out there and die.

No, thank you.

And also I think, you know, Growing up, whilst there are some really interesting, diverse distinctions between dialects in America, I do think generally there is a more cohesive sense of self with regards to the way that people speak. Whereas I'm from the UK, and I moved from Liverpool to Wales. It sounds as different as South African does to American to most ears, you know? So, I think there's a fluidity that's baked into who I am that means that it doesn't feel that way to me. To me, it feels like the first domino I'm knocking in a string of dominoes that's gonna change other things. And lead me to feel like I'm really somebody else. Yeah. So I did— made a movie in the autumn where I made the conscious decision to not adopt any kind of difference in the way I speak and to play it as close to me as possible, because I felt like I hadn't— hadn't done— played a Brit for 7 years, so I didn't feel like I'd played anything near to me. And the first week, I thought I was gonna have to give up acting. I was terrified.

You had no artifice to hide.

I had nowhere to hide. I felt overexposed. I didn't feel there was something I could lean into, and it nearly fucked me up. Wow. So it swings around, and I would be nervous to go back there. Yeah, I felt a little— so raw— a little close to home. It was a weird thing to experience.

I didn't see it coming at all. And then underneath of all that, or at least maybe an aspect of that, is it the fear like, well, I'm not interesting enough on my own? Maybe.

I definitely know that I want to feel like things that I do with distinct from one another, and that's because as, I don't know, maybe some sort of lofty aspiration to be like the people I most admire. But I do genuinely enjoy it. And I feel that once I— Like, I just made a movie in Australia that's actually set in New York. And I, for the first time in my whole life, I stayed in the accent the whole time. I've never done that before. Oh, off set? No, from arriving in the makeup bus to leaving at night. And what I found that in the car on the way home, I kind of struggled to shake it off. Not because I felt like I was this guy in 1950s New York, 57, but because you get into a muscularity. Yeah, it's like, you know, when you're acting out as a kid and you like can't stop the bit that you're doing?

It's like that. I agree. What's so fun about doing something— for instance, I was in this movie Idiocracy. It was a character I used to do at the Groundlings, and once I start talking like him, Frito, I have completely different thoughts that— yeah, yeah, doesn't have. It is so fun and interesting.

Yeah, it's interesting And it's interesting as well, because going back to that thing earlier where we were talking about reviews and that sense of certainty about anything, there are so many different versions of me within me. And I think it's true of all of us. And that's one of the things that I really love about acting, is it's like a way of embracing your multitude of self. Yeah. All the parts. You're not just this one. And maybe you're right. Maybe it is a self-love thing. Maybe actually I'm rejecting— Taron a little bit, you know, like I quite like the idea of being able to aspire to be somebody else for a little while.

The movie, we should explain it, and it's been out for a minute so probably most people listening will have seen it, but in a nutshell, Charlize Theron is a woman who is in love with a man, and that beginning opening scene is fucking bonkers. I just kept trying to figure out the math of how they had filmed that so convincingly, them sleeping on the side of that cliff. Oh my God, it brought me back to that fucking climbing movie we all saw. But, um, her partner dies, she's on this kind of soul-searching mission, she continues to be an outdoorsy person. She's going to go down to Australia and climb and kayak.

Yeah, rediscover herself a bit.

And she meets you at a gas station, right? And you kind of step in to protect her from some locals. You guys are in the middle of fucking nowhere. Yeah. Were you down there?

We shot that just outside of Canberra. Where's that? It's a city in Australia. It's got this kind of political seat of Australia. I think Canberra is the capital. I think we'll edit that out.

It is. Rob said it is.

Great.

Yeah, thank God you've been right twice.

Not as remote as it appears, like many of the locations, all of the locations in that movie.

Yeah. So I can't remember you playing a fucking evil human being.

Is this the first time? Yeah, I did a TV show last year called Smoke on Apple where I played somebody pretty wobbly, but it's definitely a newer chapter in my life. You're a psychopath. Yeah, yeah, I'm a total freak.

And we meet you and you're very kind and soft-spoken. You're very appealing. It looks like you're gonna be probably, you know, a good sweetheart. Yeah, yeah. And then we have some more interactions with you as she's on her trip, and then the turn is one of the freakier turns I've ever seen. I do want to know a little bit about that moment where basically it's starting to occur to her you're not a good dude, and then you basically put on a song for her. Yeah. So creepy. Oh, and you start dancing. It gets real creepy in a hurry. Yeah. The scene was written that way. Like, what's the fear level going into a scene like that? Well, massive.

It was sent to me the fall of 2024. It was a slightly different version of the story, and the character originally was imagined as— It sort of felt like it was written for Chris Hemsworth. Kind of like topknot, beard, man of the woods, one with nature, leaf whisperer sort of vibe. And I read it and was like, "Well, look, I can't. This is not me." They'd expressed a desire to rewrite it. So I said, "I'd be really interested in us finding a version of it where it's a guy who wants to appear like that kind of guy." Because that feels more honest to who I am. And what started was a really— remarkable process of, like, creativity and open discourse for quite a big studio movie. And they were really open to ideas. So, one of the first things we discussed, I said, "Look, villains dancing in movies is not a revolutionary idea, but I thought, wouldn't it be cool if he kind of declared the beginning of this hunt, and we could find a cool song?" And they were open to it. And what was birthed was that sequence. And I'd been searching high and low for a song, and I was training over Zoom Zoom with my trainer here in LA, and that Chemical Brothers track came on in the gym.

And so, yeah, I asked the Chemical Brothers— I wrote to them and asked if we could use their track, and they let us use it. And it was quite a thrilling thing to shoot.

Well, basically, can I just say, it is a fun mental trick. If you had got there and they go, "You're dancing to this song," yes, you would have found 9 reasons why that's not a fix. But it was your idea, and you had to live with it.

Exactly right. And also, as much as I'm playing a sociopath psychopathic, cannibalistic nut job. That guy dancing is just me at a festival at 21. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just me. It's just me at the Chemical Brothers in 2010. Yeah. You know? So, me bringing something of myself to it is what I think makes it extra weird. Exactly. Because people are going, "Oh, my God. This feels really..." Real. Yeah. And it is real 'cause it is me.

I can feel that he is feeling this song. Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah. Is his song. Yeah, I'll put, I'll put it in a two-way tie with— was it Buffalo Bill in Silence of the Lambs?

You can't put us up there. You can't.

You refuse that? No, I went like, oh fuck, dude, this guy's even weirder than I was anticipating.

Yeah, I mean, that shot, the Buffalo Bill opening that, that rope— I'm very honored to say that I have a sort of slight pen pal relationship with Anthony Hopkins, and I I asked him before doing the movie for advice about playing a really fucked-up individual.

Wow, you got to go to the— The source. Yeah, yeah.

Yes! He said something like, he said, "I don't know where Lecter came from. Probably something in my childhood." But he said, "The only advice I would give you, and I don't need to tell you this, but the only advice I would give you is don't play the evil. Play him as the hero of his story." I really took that advice forward with me. And yeah, I had a great time. Parts like that where the rules are a little bit malleable, and you get to do something where you're being licensed to be as strange as possible. So freeing and expressive.

How fun. I had a great time.

Charlize is just a bad motherfucker in this.

And honestly, I know that people say this when they're promoting movies, but the movie's been out. We're, you know, we're here as friends. Yeah, I mean, she is a force of nature. Talk about grit. She really went there, and I think it's kind of what makes the movie work. She trained for so many once as a climber and has taken it on as a hobby. You know what you were saying about me really digging that song? Yeah, yeah, that was her with the climbing. Yeah, yeah. And I think that's what it takes to make it feel really real.

Oh my God, did you get to keep those crazy teeth?

No, I didn't keep those actually. I hadn't shown them to anyone the day we filmed. I had them designed here in LA and I had them shipped over independently of production. No one had seen them when I did it on set.

So Charlize's reaction, it's really legit because I think you could plan the most incredible scare in your real life. If like you're just having a wonderful evening with somebody and then you go into the kitchen to grab a couple more things and you come back and resume talking, you just don't do a thing. Yeah, I mean, that could— they are so fucking scary. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're missing out on a real good—

like, it's not as good as the Bridesmaids actors with a little bit of chocolate cake on there. That's so good. That's a great one.

Last thing I'm gonna say is I'm now following you on Instagram, which was new once we started doing research a while back. I just really enjoy dancing, and I want to know about the decision to do so much public dancing, which I applaud. I too have a video of me dancing, so it's a big swing.

Yeah, it's a big swing. Here's a big swing. I think it's the shadow thing. For my entire 20s, I thought that what I should be aiming at, what I was supposed to be— choose your fighter— those guys who epitomize the Hollywood leading man. And what I have found in my 30s, to use rough parameters, is that I am much happier when I'm not trying to be the guy, the man, the man. And I get it, Hollywood celebrates the man, and there's a reason, you know, there's a reason Tom Hardy's the man, and it's cool. We like those characters, we like those guys, I like those guys, but it's not my path and it's not who I am. And I suppose me doing stupid dancing on Instagram feels like a statement of intent about me going, actually, I'm I'm this guy. Yeah. And I'm okay with that. Yeah. And I like my weird, and I like my shadow.

Yeah. Oh, that's beautiful.

I've been charmed on this show. We've done 1,200 episodes, but I'm putting you in the top 10 of charm. I am so charmed by you.

Well, I felt when I couldn't make it the first time, I felt pretty wrong about it, so I'm glad we got to do this. Yeah, me too.

This is a blast. Thank you. So fun. I'm so rooting for you. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. And everyone watch Apex. It's fucking Stellar. Watch it with your mom and just see what happens to her physiologically, cardiovascularly, uh, check her heart rate. Thank you. All right, be well, brother.

Thank you, you too.

Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite Fact Checks. I just really shit the bed myself on my time management. Oh, okay. I had got all my workout gear on. I was like, should I ride up my bike today? Sure, always a big question. Big, big question. And I was like, I still really need to change this rear inner tube. The nozzle kind of popped off. It's still holding air, but I can't risk it. Okay, I'm gonna need to repair it. And then this lift— we're gonna lift. Got in my outfit, then I went to— I thought, well, I now I have a little extra time. I got to working on the bicycle. Like, it did the tires. A little more challenging than— there's a lot of challenges. So when I finally got it all done, cleaned up the tools, like, all right, let's go work out, I looked at my watch, 12:40. My entire workout had blown by. Yeah, yeah, that'll happen. Got away from me. That'll happen. You get tinkering in the shop, you know, those guys get tinkering in the shop and the time just flies by.

Blew right by. Oh my Lord, this cookie boy likes to tinker.

Yeah, cookie boys do like to tinker.

They'll think, or your morning was good? Did time get away from you?

My internet was out. Oh, at the beginning of the morning. Wow, unacceptable. I know. And I, I got a text from AT&T saying so, but I thought it was spam. Sure. Or a trick. I thought it was a trick and a way to— for them to take all my money, so I didn't click it.

Kristen just dealt with the exact same thing. She started getting tons and tons of emails and texts from Spectrum. Oh, like, you're— we're gonna shut your cable off. Okay, shut your internet. Sure. And she's like, I don't even think I signed up for the account. I don't think I— it's in my name or anything. Now there's a big mystery. There's a huge mystery. So very similar. But she, the whole time, she's like, this is all a ploy to get my credit card. Gotta be careful. I think they got it. They did.

I think so.

You're never supposed to click on it. Well, she looked up the actual web address for Spectrum and it was the right web.

No, you don't click on it.

Scary.

So scary. Yeah. Yeah, well, I didn't click on it and I was wrong. They were, that was real.

That was real.

'Cause my internet was out. And, but then it came back. Oh, wonderful. Then it came back. But I do this, right? I like plan, I plan my morning or my getting ready to the minute. Uh-huh. Which is a problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I'm a busy girl.

Yes, very busy, multiple jobs.

I have a lot to fit in there. But then the makeup, okay, that's gonna take 7 minutes, and then it takes 7 and a half, and then you add a half minute to each of these line items and you're late.

Line items. Yeah. Yeah, business speak. And then you're late. You do your P&L and you realize more losses than profits.

And the ROI is low.

It's not good. It's not good. It's not a good ROI. I hate all those terms. Then once I learn them, I realize they really are useful. I know, it's annoying.

And then I'm the person I hate. You, you're the— you've become the person you've always hated.

It's almost my full arc as a human is becoming fully the person I hated. Um, I did a good prank last night.

Oh my God, tell me, because I'm into pranks now.

Okay, so as you know, my girlfriend Khaleesi's visiting.

Yes, your little baby friend.

She's 7, Kenny's daughter. I told you about the hike. We had a great hike. We held hands the entire time. I'd love to show you me some pictures.

Oh yeah, yeah. She calls Kristen your wife and Kristen my wife and Kristen, previously Dax's mom.

Dax's mom, which is really sad. But I did discover after we talked, she is calling my sister Delta's grandma, which is great. She kept saying, is Delta gone with her grandma to the movies? When is she gonna be done with her grandma the movies. So now TT is Grandma, which is so fun.

Oh my God, I'm scared for her to give me a name. At least it's consistent.

So like, if, if Kristen's my mom and my sister is Delta's Grandma, those are— they're peers, which they are, of course, in this weird structure.

What if she started calling me, Dax, what about your Indian friend?

Oh no. Yeah, no, she's not gonna do that. It's more of an age mix-up. So anyways, Khaleesi, Delta, Kris and Kenny and I went to Cafe 101 last night. We were in a big booth. Khaleesi's so excited. There's older girls. Yeah. The older girls have had enough. But I tell them, I try to tell them, you know, what if we went somewhere and there's two older girls? You know, it's really tough being a parent in these situations. I know. Because you're really kind of weighing a couple of things. Yeah. You want to teach them to be kind and civil. And also they're in their house. Yeah. They have some boundaries. I also want them to have boundaries. For some reason.

I don't know. I know. I think I may have made a mistake on this front. Okay.

Did you advise them to punch Khaleesi? I did.

Okay. No, I told Delta the other day I did a pop out. I pop out here. I walked by and I decided to go pop into my house. And as I was walking by your fence, I heard you grunt.

I was unloading motorcycles and power washing them. Yes. And I heard your little voice come coming from like the woods.

I said, hi! And you, you kind of like jerked around. This is why I'm into pranks now, actually, because it was actually very funny because you got really spooked.

Well, and you were obscured behind FICA's, like, a hedge, a row of hedges. So you got to watch me react and look stupid for a while.

Probably funny. Yeah. Come on, goddamn it! You said, who's saying hi? Ah, yeah, you got into that mode where you were scared.

Protect my family, my property mode.

It's Monica, I'm here, I'm over here by the fence. Monica, your Indian friend.

I'm over here by the door. Your grandma.

So then, yeah, you came over and then Delta came over. And so we were chit-chatting a lot. And yeah, she mentioned that there was going to be a young girl.

And Khaleesi's so friendly.

She wants to talk. She's so cute.

Cute and friendly. She really wants to get into it.

Was anticipating being a little overwhelmed, but really Really, her ire was towards Lincoln. Oh, okay. She was like, Lincoln shuts the door and then I have to just play by myself with her. And also she looks at me and she says, please take care of it. And then I do. And I just, I don't wanna do that this time. And I said, well, that's good. That's boundaries. You can, so I taught her about it.

But then if you saw little Khaleesi excited to play with them, you'd be like, girls, get over it. Cute little girl. So yeah, Lincoln's largely spared because of the age gap. I think Delta's more interesting to Cleese. Yeah. Anyways, all this to say, we're at dinner and, um, I love talking to her, right? Because I'm just messing with her the whole time, exactly how I talked to Lincoln and Delta's there, because she's family. She's Kenny's, of course. So she's, um, Kenny says something she doesn't like, so she starts punching Kenny. She's like, won't stop punching him. He's like, stop punching me. And I go, Khaleesi, I'm gonna tell you right now, they throw people out in this restaurant. They have a zero tolerance policy on violence. He's like, no, they won't. And I go, no, they'll throw you right out of here. And what is great is I've developed— now, I had, without this ever in sight, I've developed a really good relationship with the busboy.

Oh, nice.

Okay, I love the dude, you know, we have a great rapport. So I go, I'm— that's it, I'm gonna get the manager. So I got up, and then luckily he was just standing right around the corner, and I go, oh, perfect, will you tell that— ask that little girl if she's been punching people? And he's like, oh yeah, yeah. So we come back, and now there's an employee of the restaurant, and he goes, have you been punching people? And she, she was busted. Yeah, she was so scared she was about to get thrown out. Oh no. And then we all started laughing, and then she started laughing. It was great. She laughed. Yeah, but I came back with an employee, and he got right into That is funny.

Oh, it was glorious. Ooh, I just got mirror neurons though. Like, I'm back to not liking pranks anymore.

Oh, 'cause you're afraid of getting kicked out of the restaurant. Oh my God, I would've cried.

And then I would've felt bad that I was crying because I would know everyone else felt bad. Yeah, yeah. But I wouldn't be able to help myself. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot there. Pranks are tricky.

But it did stop the punching.

Well, that's good.

Okay, so the other thing she and I have going is we were in the hospital hot tub two nights ago, and she's telling me all these different stories. And she tells me about how mean this, um, gymnastics coach is, and he's real mean. And one girl is going to have her water, and he said, oh, you want some water? And he poured the water on her head. No, she's alive. I'm gonna be honest, I don't believe that story. And she's like, what? What do you mean you don't believe it? I go, like, I, I, I trust you and I love you, but at the same time, I just, I really can't. I don't think I'm able to believe that story. And it became this whole about believing that story. And then later she told me, you know, your eyes turn color when you lie. My grandpa told me that. And I go, yeah, I love your Grandpa Joe, he's one of my buddies, but I, I'm afraid I can't believe that story. And she fought me on that for a while. But then in the car on the way to Cafe 101, she was saying, yeah, my grandpa told me your eyes turn color when you 'lying.' I don't think I believe it anymore.

No, you made her turn on her grandpa. That's okay, it's good to be skeptical. This— you can't believe in fairy tales.

But the reason the grandpa said it is because she's a little liar and she's running around telling lies, and the grandpa's basically saying, 'Don't you do that. I'll—

I'll just call her a liar.' You don't need to make up a whole thing where her eyes— your little baby's lying.

You can tell kids exactly everything is what my experience You do, but not everyone does that.

We are having a blast.

Although, don't they say that about hazel? It's like sometimes you're green, sometimes you're blue.

Because sometimes you're in light that makes them look that way, and sometimes you're in light that makes them look the other way. It's very wishy-washy. Yeah, transient.

It's very ephemeral. It changes, it moves.

It's amorphous. Yeah. All to say, your eyes don't turn a different color when you lie.

Okay, this is back to me really wishing I had green eyes since I learned they're the rarest.

Yeah, you kind of— didn't you already know they were the rarest? Did you need to learn that?

We already talked about this.

I like guess I kind of knew in my heart of hearts, but haven't you just met the least amount of people with green eyes? Hmm, I'll answer for you. Yes. Well, no. Yes, you've met way more people with blue and brown eyes than green. Brown, yeah, brown's a dime a dozen. Here we go. Go around. Also, I love browns. Don't listen to her. Daniel Ricciardo's brown eyes. I know, like a saddlewood.

I know, but like, it's just you always want— the grass is always greener when your eyes are green. Yeah, no, I— Rob, what color are your eyes? Brown? Blue. Wow. See, I don't really—

that was a dangerous question. Why? Because people take it so personal if you don't know their eye color. Oh, I hear this all the time. This is one of these these, I think, trends about how to out guys for— you know, another thing guys are terrible at is like, guys don't know your eye color. This is a test for a guy. Oh, what's your mom's eye color? What's your— what's your wife's eyes color? Eye color. Eyes colors. Oh my God. Yeah, so it's— it's real dangerous. It's— people get very hurt if you don't know what color their eyes are. You know what color mine are?

Blue. Yeah, yeah, because I know that this whole time we were talking about it. I think I sort of thought blue eyes were the rarest. Oh wow.

I don't know how you thought that.

I, I like blue eyes the most. Name 3 people with green eyes.

Okay, Callie, she has green eyes. Are we playing it fast and loose? No. Okay. Only if there's solid green.

Let me text her. Well, what's solid green? Is there such a thing? Callie might be mad cuz now we're back to the thing I said.

You have green eyes, right? I'm so hurt. Lose my number. I think she has blue eyes. She doesn't.

Okay, um, she either has green or hazel. Okay, my friend Gina, green or hazel.

Okay, you're asking me? No, I'm telling you, these are two people. Okay, so we're up to two. All right, and, um, you're currently sitting with two people with blue eyes, so that's already neutralized. Okay, so evens, even Stevens with the immediate people in your vicinity and all the people in the world Do you know? Yes, it's even Steven so far. What does Kristen have?

Blue. Blue. And the kids have blue. Yeah. See, I'm not paying much attention. You know, the kids have blue.

They're so prototypical blonde blue. I know, but they're generic.

I don't— I think I don't— you know, people think eyes are like the window to the soul. Yeah. And I guess I get like when I look like in your eyes, I get it. Like, that's where the human is, right? Hey, yeah, but I guess I'm never looking.

You can't see very well though, in your defense. I don't know that you can even see most people's eyes.

Your eyes are like shit blue. I don't see that when you know I have brown eyes. That's so insensitive. Um, yours are like grayish blue.

Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah, I would agree with that.

Yeah, which is nice.

Jess has said the nicest thing about my eyes as anyone has ever said. He said there's ice popsicles in them. Oh, it's very sweet. You know what color my brother's eyes are, right?

What are his eyes? His eyes are probably green. No, they're red. No, that's his hair. He has brown eyes.

Go ahead, test it. You're a bad boyfriend. I'm a much better boyfriend than you are.

Color of your eyes, question mark.

He's just gonna start crying. He'll get back to you in 30 minutes.

Who else should I insult?

Yeah, exactly.

Who else is you? Should you tell you don't— tell me you don't care about me without telling me you don't care about me.

I actually, when I'm like, all my— all the girls in the pod, I'm really trying to think who's got what.

I don't know.

Yeah. And the boys, I guess I hate eyes.

Yeah, they're not your thing.

Okay, we have a really important thing to do today.

Oh, are we gonna finally do the— it's a quiz from the book, the Quasi—

oh no, but We should— okay, do it next week. Tune in next week for us saying we'll do it the following week for the green— so what quiz is this? Okay, this is highly sensitive person quiz. Oh, wonderful, because this is for Blaze.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. Now, do you want me to read it? I always feel bad. You're always administering the quizzes, and I'm, I'm happy to do it if you want.

I'd like to do it. Okay. Okay. Now, discover your personality. Choose your gender to start. Male. Okay. You find it easy to make new friends. Strongly agree, agree, neutral, disagree, strongly disagree. Strongly agree. You could spend days learning about random things that interest you.

Oh, strongly agree. When others are— they seem to have nothing to do with sensitivity. It's interesting.

When others are upset, you feel set too.

Oh yeah, I hate it.

Which one, agree or strongly agree?

Strongly agree.

You aren't one for backup plans. Yeah, that's—

I'm not gonna go strongly, I'll go the next one.

Okay. You stay cool, calm, and collected even when under lots of stress.

Yeah. Which one? Strongly agree. Right? Have you ever seen me losing my shit? Yeah.

Oh. Oh my God, yeah. Oh my God, yeah.

Wow, really? Yes. Oh, wow. Okay. When I just think when the shit's hitting the fan, I'm very calm. Is that not what the question is? You would agree with that? Yeah. Like, my car's on fire and I'm like, okay, let's get the hood open. Let's— like, there's no— I have no, oh no, there's no, oh no, in me.

Right. When your car's on fire. Yeah. Okay. When out and about, you don't really introduce yourself to new people. You prefer to chat with people you already know.

That's true, even though I can make friends really easy. That's true. Okay, but not strongly.

So regs, let's go medium. Neutral or agree? Let's go neutral. Okay. Yeah, because part of your thing is that you like talking to strangers.

It's really weird. I like to talk to either dead strangers or people I know. It's periphery people that people I know know that make me nervous.

I I understand.

Yeah, I can— you understand? That's weird, isn't it though? But like, if I'm at a gas station, I talked— like, I'm, I'm very engaged. Yeah, you want to learn about them, or the server, or whatever. I'm like, yeah, I'm gonna ask the Uber driver where they're from, right?

Yeah.

But if like the Uber driver I kind of remember is friends with Callie, I'd be like, oh fuck. Oh no, not her specifically.

This friend is so cool. But you know, any friend of a friend, I I know, it feels like you have to be on in a little bit of a different way.

Yeah, we're supposed to connect because we—

yeah, I, I get it. I'm like a no across the board. I don't want to talk to strangers. Yeah. And I don't want to try— you don't want to take friends either. Yeah. Okay, you don't like to start a new project until the first one's finished. Agree. Okay, you're a sentimental type of person.

Yeah, I strongly agree.

Okay, you enjoy using lists or schedules. Neutral. Okay. Making a small mistake can make you question your knowledge on a subject. Medium. Neutral or agree?

Medium agree. Is that just—

or yeah, agree. Okay. You easily spark up a conversation with a stranger. Oh, 5. You love talking about and analyzing creative works. 4. You follow your heart more than your head. This is an interesting one. Boy, that That's, that's a hard one to—

that's hard to be objective about. What do you think?

I'm open to your— you follow your heart more than your head.

I kind of think so. I do too.

I do too. Yes, agree. Regular. 4 regs. You tend to prefer following a daily routine as opposed to just doing whatever you want.

Yeah, I love a daily routine. Yeah, strongly agree.

Okay. When you meet new people, you worry about whether you made a great first impression. 5. Yeah. You prefer solo activities over group activities. Neutral. Okay. You love watching movies that let you interrupt.

Oh, a little projection. No, not projection, just interject. Interrupt. You put something— you— I wrote—

what if I said—

yeah, I started changing the quiz. Yeah. You love to interrupt. What do you think? 6. You love watching movies that let you interpret the ending yourself. Yourself. That's a good question. 4. You get more happiness from achieving things yourself than you do from helping others.

Yeah, terrible quality, but yeah.

Strong. 5. You aren't interested in very many things. Oh, strongly disagree. You often worry about the worst possible scenario in any given situation. You love taking up leadership roles.

5.

You are an artistic type of For the world would be better off if people made more decisions with their feelings.

No, it'd be worse.

I disagree.

Yeah, strongly disagree.

Well, you work with your head— heart.

I know, but I'm allowed to and no one else.

Okay. You prefer to relax before getting into chores. That's weird.

Relax before— you don't? You don't? Yeah.

So you're— I like to keep them—

I like to keep the motor floored or off. So that's a disagree. Okay.

You don't mind when other people are having a heated argument in front of you. Oh, this is interesting.

Yeah, I don't mind. I like—

yeah, I like it. So you—

is horny an option?

Strongly agree. Strongly agree. You like being the center of attention.

Oh, 15.

Your mood is like—

how gross you are quiz.

Your mood is generally pretty stable. Yeah, I'd say 4. You have plenty of patience for people that aren't as efficient as you.

Zero. No. Strongly.

Yeah, strongly disagree. You're spontaneous. Oh, 5. You have always been fascinated by the question of what, if anything, happens after death. Neutral. You prefer to be on your own rather than with others. Neutral. You love theoretical discussions and can engage in them for days on end. 15. You have a hard time empathizing with people who come from a very different lifestyle to your own. Hmm, interesting.

Oh, I feel like you have a—

what would you give me on You have a hard time empathizing with people who come from a very different culture.

Also remember where I'm from. I know. Yeah. I love gay dudes.

I'm gonna say something ballsy right now. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I think that has more to do with your contrarianism than it does with your empathy. Wow. And I mean that positively. Like, I think you, you always wanna look at the the other side and you don't like a status quo. Yeah. And in Michigan there's— there was a status quo about people, and I think it was not empathy that drove you.

But I have an outcast identity, right? So I think I, I like— it's easy for me to lock into— uh, I don't know, I'm gonna go neutral. Okay. I think I'm— I think I'm more— I think I'm more empathetic than the average dog from where I'm from. Okay. But also, yeah, a lot of times, like, I had to definitely become friends with you before I was able to truly understand how hurtful and— sure, doing an accent, that's pretty shameful.

No, I wouldn't use—

let's use you.

I actually mean more like, I think currently you can't empathize with like a very hyper-liberal person, and that is from where they come from too. Well, Let me ask—

let's see though. Is it that I can't empathize? I mean, I think I understand where they're coming from. I think it's gonna end in defeat. Yeah. So I have like a real strong objection that I don't think we're ever gonna get in power again unless people have a reckoning. So neutral.

We'll go neutral. When there's a decision to be made, you want to make it right away. Yeah, 4 or 5.

5.

You tend to second-guess the decisions you make. No, I disagree. Socializing quickly exhausts you.

Socializing quickly?

If you start socializing, are you quickly exhausted?

Oh no, I'm energized. Strongly disagree. You enjoy going to art museums?

No. Oh my God, I went to one recently and it was, it was lovely. I went by myself. Oh, where? This one in Echo Park. Oh, and I went to see this awesome artist. Her name is Sophie, uh, I'm already a fan of hers and she had an exhibit there. So I went and I got a coffee and I went by myself and I felt so cultured.

And you really enjoyed looking at them?

I did, yeah. But there was only like— I was, I was in and out pretty quick. Okay, well, there weren't that many. I mean, I can remember the couple that I've loved.

I've loved two. The old Picasso one in the Galería in Barcelona and then the Van Gogh Museum in Amsterdam. I like walking around the Getty, but it's like I look at the paintings and I'm— I feel like, um, Larry David, right? I'm like, I'm more annoyed that other people are getting some transcendent experience that I might not be. And I'm like, why? What is—

I see. Yeah, uh, this is a ding ding ding for my other fact, which isn't a fact but is flower poopy. The flower puppy, um, outside the Guggenheim in Bilbao. Yeah, Frank Gehry designed building. I went there. Yeah, yeah, that came up in this episode. Oh, right. And I just— I went there with Callie, and, um, it was great. You loved it. I loved it. Yeah. And I'd like to go back. Yeah. Okay. You struggle to understand what others are feeling.

No, I disagree.

Disagree. Okay. You like to have a to-do to-do list for each day?

We already answered this. No, I don't. I don't. Regs don't. Regs disagree.

You often feel insecure?

I mean, what year is this question being asked?

Now? Um, um, rarely. Disagree. Yeah, but, but you prefer talking to people on the phone over texting or messaging them?

I used to, but not anymore. Disagree. Oh, disagree. Regs.

When someone has a different perspective on a subject than you, you genuinely try to understand where they're coming from. I'd go rags agree.

I think so.

You find that telling the cold hard truth is more important than being tactful. Yeah, 5. It was puked. You're happy to go with the flow when your plans are interrupted. No, I'm not at all.

That's a strong disagree.

Mistakes you made in the past often haunt your mind. Oh, 5. You feel energized after spending time alone, engaging in solitary activities like reading or reflecting. Not energized. No.

Regs disagree. Okay.

You prefer to rely on your instincts rather than sticking strictly to a set plan or schedule.

5.

You often find yourself deeply contemplating the underlying meanings and implications of things rather than focusing solely on the surface details.

Regs agree. I think that's a neutral for me.

No, I think you're strongly— yeah. Okay, okay. Strongly. When making decisions, you prioritize logic and objective analysis over considering how it might impact feelings.

I agree. Yeah, you are. I would have gone right, but okay, I think we're there.

You often find yourself worrying about potential future outcomes or what could go wrong in a given situation. You often find yourself drawn to new experiences and enjoy exploring unfamiliar places. Strongly agree. You tend to trust your gut feelings and intuition when faced with difficult decisions rather than relying solely on logical analysis. Neutral. Okay. You feel a strong sense of empathy towards others and are often affected by their emotions, even if they don't directly involve you.

Well, I'm affected by people's emotions, but you said I'm not empathetic, so I'm going to have to take that. I didn't say that. Let's go. Regs agree.

I didn't say that. Okay. You prefer to have a well-structured plan in place rather than leaving things up to chance or improvisation. Regs disagree. Okay. You thrive in dynamic, fast-paced environments and feel invigorated by challenging situations that require quick thinking and adaptability. 55. When faced with a problem, you're more inclined to seek out practical solutions rather than dwelling on abstract theories or hypothetical scenarios. That's a hard one.

That is. I would go neutral.

Okay. You enjoy engaging in deep, meaningful conversations with others. Yes, strongly agree. You often find yourself reflecting on past experiences and considering how they've shaped your beliefs and values.

Too much so. Yeah.

You're inclined to take charge in group settings, assuming leadership roles and guiding others.

I already asked that. It's a cheat. There should be a question like, do you hate being asked the same question twice? Or rather, it would say, you hate being asked.

Oh my God. Okay. You feel most comfortable when your environment is organized and structured, and you may feel stressed or unsettled in chaotic or unpredictable situations.

I agree with that, which seems like a contradiction. I know, but I— yes, I, I keep my room really clean on my side of the thing, you know, like I Um, yeah, I'm a little bit of a—

you prefer spending time with a small group of close friends rather than attending large social gatherings. Yeah, yeah. 4 or 5? 5. When presented with multiple options, you tend to follow your heart and make decisions based on what feels right in the moment.

They're trying to confuse us. They keep asking the same question but slightly different.

Then you wonder—

that's how all these are, and they're trying to catch you being inconsistent, and they're about to catch me. One more time.

When presented with multiple options, you tend to follow your heart and make decisions based on what feels right in the moment.

Yeah, I agree with that.

Okay. You enjoy exploring new ideas and concepts, often seeking out an opportunity. Okay. Yeah, fine. You find it easy to—

what if at the end it said, did this piss you off? And that's the only question that matters because you're so sensitive.

You find it easy to adapt to changes and plans or unexpected situations. Regs? No. Often seeing them as opportunities for growth and learning. No.

Okay. I mean, I get there. Okay. After a long time later.

When working on a project, do you value efficiency and strive to complete tasks quickly and effectively? Yeah, 5. You often seek out opportunities to challenge yourself and push your limits, whether it's through physical activities or intellectual pursuits. Strongly agree. You prefer to focus on the present moment rather than dwelling on past regrets or worrying about future uncertainties. No, Gregs disagrees. Okay. You enjoy engaging in lively debates and discussions, sharing your— yep, 5. Okay. You have a strong desire for structure and order in your daily life, feeling most at ease when following a clear routine or schedule. This is crazy.

Strongly I agree. It's getting really crazy.

You tend to be proactive in seeking out new experiences and opportunities, embracing change as a natural part of life.

I like new things, but I don't know that I embrace change all that well, so let's go neutral. Okay.

You feel energized and excited by social interactions, often seeking out opportunities to meet new people.

Is it in a— is it like—

is there a glitch? No, but it is different current, often seeking out opportunities to meet new people.

I do do that. Let's go, Regs.

Okay. When making decisions, you prioritize logical reasoning and objective analysis, considering the facts and evidence before reaching a conclusion.

I'd say 4. Oh, 4.

You tend to be highly self-critical and introspective, frequently reflecting on your actions and decisions and striving for self-improvement. 5. You often find yourself empathizing with others' emotions, even if you and experience the same situation yourself and strive to offer support and understanding. I'm not good at that.

Let's go, um, regs. Regs disagree. Yeah.

You prefer to have a clear plan and direction in life, setting specific goals and working diligently to achieve them.

Um, regs agree.

Okay. What is your current relationship status? Um, married.

Yeah, but 5— what is that? No, now it's 8. Oh, now we're okay.

Married. Married. How long is your current relationship? 6+ years. How many relationships have you been in? Oh God, there's 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 4+. 4+. 4+. Oh wow, how— this is personal.

How long is your penis? God.

How satisfied are you with your current relationship? We have dissatisfied, somewhat satisfied, mostly satisfied, very satisfied. Very satisfied. What's your age? Okay. Oh God, 500. It's not even an op option.

Oh my God, I'm too old to take this quiz.

No, it's 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, and above. 60 plus. Oh, so I'm okay. There's at least— weird to say 50s.

Well, that's not even as concerning as I thought I was gonna say 50 plus, right? No. And then the rest of everyone. Okay, male. Submit. Is it gonna ask you for $2.99? Yes. Uh-huh. Oh, must These bastards.

What the fuck? I have to pay it.

I know, cuz we filmed a whole segment.

Oh my God, what bastards.

And this is like someone made this test up in their fucking basement. I mean, it is blossom.co.

Oh, that's not confidence-inducing, but some of their questions were Good and repetitive.

Some of their questions were great, and then on the second time they were good, and then sometimes on the third time they were no good. You didn't love it. How much do I owe you for this? Was it $2.99?

It was $1.99.

Are they gonna give you unlimited tests?

Oh, you can take more quizzes. Oh good. Oh, that's fun. Okay, well let's find it. View my results. Show me. Oh, we'll tell you next week.

Oh fuck, another paywall. No, this just isn't about—

this isn't— I have anything to do. You're an ENTJ.

An ear, nose, and throat.

Oh no, this wasn't even a highly sensitive person test. Oh my God, what kind of test was this? It was like a, you know, those— they're— it's called something and it's, it's a personality.

Happy right now. Like, someone has wanted us to take this test, but we don't know about it. No, it's, it's like Enneagram test.

It is, but it's like a really common one. You're an EN or an INFJ.

It won't tell you the name. I think it's Myers-Briggs, maybe.

Let's see. ENTJ personality. Stanford Prison. It's Myers-Briggs. That's like the original one. So that's cool. Now you know.

What am I, an ENT?

You're an ENTJ. That's a confident leader. Okay, that tracks. Facts. 76% extroversion.

Okay, I'd agree with that.

Method of processing information: 81% intuition. Mm-hmm. ENTJs are intuitive thinkers fascinated by possibilities, patterns, and future outcomes. Interesting. Okay, um, 55% thinking. That feels like neutral.

That's a push.

Well, because it's either— so it's introversion versus extroversion. That's the I the E. Intuition versus sensing. Okay, that's your method of processing information. Your intuition decision-making functioning is thinking or feeling. You're thinking, but at 55%. Yeah, I'm on the fence. And then management function is judging or perceiving, and you're 61% judging. Wow, what a left turn. Uh, we still don't know if you're highly sensitive.

We'll have to find that test and we'll do it when we do the— they, they tricked me— Briggs and Stratton test from your book. What was that called?

Myers-Briggs? No, from your book. Oh yeah, Green Hats. Green Hats. Oh, what a mess of a fact-checker. All right, all right.

Oh, are there any facts? That was it. Oh great. Yeah, I love you.