Transcript of Lukas Gage

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dax Shepard. I'm joined by Monica Padman.

Hi.

We have an actor with an incredible story, and we're blessed with his memoir, which is I Wrote This for Attention. Today we have Lucas Gayjohn, and, uh, you know, wild story, right?

Really wild. And he was very open with us, and it was really lovely.

Yes, incredibly vulnerable. Uh, he was in The White Lotus, Euphoria, You, Fargo, Smile 2, and, uh, he has a new movie out now on Netflix, Voicemail for Isabel.

Great movie.

Great movie.

Say that. Great movie.

Great. Please enjoy Lucas Gage. Hey, Monica, how are you? You smell really good.

Do I smell good?

Yeah, you do, you do.

Was I so weird to you at that barbecue on Sunday?

Oh no, let's start with me apologizing to you.

No, I apologize.

I feel real—

okay, no. Yeah, pull your microphone.

Let's start. This is already exciting.

Yeah, so you and I were both at a party.

Yeah, on—

thank you— Sunday.

Do you want to out who it was? We love him.

Oh, Phineas. Okay, yeah, we were having a Phineas's party. Yeah, and you were there, and we said hi to each other and you said, oh, I'm doing the show this week. And I said, I know, I'm really excited.

Yeah.

And then I was like, I got to get the fuck away from this guy immediately because I don't want to talk to you.

That's what I felt.

Discover a bunch of fun stuff about you and then have to replicate that today. And then I left the party. I was even talking to Ryan. Do you know Ryan Hansen? Do you know that actor?

I know who he is because I saw you with him.

Yeah.

We then were together the rest of the day and I was just the whole day. I was like, I'm so worried that Lucas thinks I'm a dick, but I just was so like, I don't want to blow our wad.

I'm really glad you made that move because then, yeah, this whole episode would have just been repeats.

That's what I felt though. I was spiraling that I felt like I was being a dick to you.

Oh no, you talked to Kristen a bunch, right?

Yeah, Kristen was great. She was so lovely. And then I was like, I need to like make up for being so weird about like that. I was holding a taco and I didn't shake your hand because I had a taco in my hand.

Oh no, I didn't notice any of that.

I was hyper aware that I didn't want to blow my load before our podcast.

And then I realized it was very mutual.

Okay, good. I'm glad. Yeah, I'm glad. I'm sorry.

I was neurotic about the fact that you're like, what a dick. Like, hey, I'm doing your show this week. I'm like, cool, see you later. That's what it felt like.

No one wanted to just say like, we shouldn't talk because we're gonna have to save it. Everyone felt—

I probably should have just said that.

I don't even know that I connected what my impulse was until after the fact. Okay, like, I don't even know if in that moment I knew.

I don't think I did either. Yeah, I thought about it later. I was like, maybe that's why I was so awkward with him because I was so aware. And I feel like I have this weird parasocial relationship with you guys because I've listened to your podcast.

Oh, you have?

Oh yeah.

Oh, we love Oh, that's so funny.

But it's that weird kind of balancing act of like, do I talk to them before? Do I tell them that I'm— I don't know.

I love that.

I'm glad we had the same experience.

Yes. And you know what's really funny, Lucas, is that we've had guests arrive like really early and they've been neurotic about not wanting to talk to me. And I have said to them, don't worry, we'll have plenty. Like, you don't need to worry about blowing— even Letterman kept going like, oh, let's get inside.

Oh, oh yeah, yeah.

Like, he is— like, Letterman was like worried we were gonna blow stuff.

Well, he's the master of conversation, so he Yeah, he knows. Yeah.

But also it's Dave Letterman. I bet we'll be fine.

Yeah.

That's nice to know. Even he has those anxieties too. That's nice.

Isn't it comforting?

That is comforting. Yeah.

All of us are terribly insecure.

So insecure. Well, your wife made me feel a lot better about it. I talked to her about my insecurity about it.

She told me that she had a very nice chat with you.

She was lovely. Yeah.

And I think she told me, she said like, oh, well, don't worry, Dex, we'll make sure you're fine.

Right. Say that.

And I will.

She was very sweet. And then she was like crocheting the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life.

Oh, I know.

She's making like a bandana thing points to hell.

Yeah, she's like really intricate though.

No, she'll also do that like on a roller coaster, right? There's no place she won't be obsessed. Yeah, she could be on the back of a motorcycle and she would be doing it.

I really want one.

You want to learn?

No, I want her to make me one.

Okay, but we also met in Austin.

I'll never forget it.

Okay, tell me.

First I'll say I've never seen someone be so composed at a Q&A as you were. You blew my mind. It was the most Nuts. Q&A about that.

What was it?

What was it?

It was the Conor McGregor thing. You were there for Roadhouse. Were you in the audience?

I was in the audience.

That was a crazy premiere. Yeah, people were just wasted.

Yes.

Please give me your perspective because Monica and I have ours. We were there, we experienced it. But please give me your perspective and we'll both be running the risk of getting beat up by Conor McGregor.

I already got in trouble for saying that he fucked my back up and he got mad at me. Oh, I meant it in a loving way. I was glad that he beat me up on set.

I was like, that's so cool. I love that.

I could say Conor McGregor, like, fractured my disc.

You're in a list of very tough people.

Totally. No, I felt really cool and I meant it as a compliment. I just remember being next to Post Malone, Jake Gyllenhaal, and Conor McGregor and being like, what the fuck am I doing here? I don't belong here. And I remember you were so sweet. Maybe you're just a good person, but I think you could feel how nervous I was. And you said something about, guys, have you seen Fargo? This kid's really good at acting. It was so—

you were spectacular. Do you remember the fucking goofy golfing dorky husband?

Oh, I know, I know.

So good.

Thank you guys.

You're just like, every time the guy talked, you're like, oh fuck, dude, I would hate to be there.

And that was such a good season.

Yeah, it was a great season.

That was the best.

It was so good. Fuck, that was a good season. Thank you though. But you were so sweet, and I just remember being completely in over my head.

I was in over my head as well.

I couldn't tell. You were so composed. I don't know how you pulled it off.

Well, to set the context, so we got invited to, after a screening of Roadhouse, Q&A with the cast. And then I said I would do that if we could interview Connor.

Yes.

So we had done that earlier in the day.

Connor and Jake together.

Okay.

We did have a really sweet moment at the end of that interview where I was encouraging him to embrace the kid who got beat up. Who then pursued this because he had been humiliated. And remember that boy, and let the other boys know that it's okay to be that boy, right? I just begged him. I'm like, so many dudes look at you as the apex of masculinity. You have a great opportunity. I just urge you to share the vulnerable stuff. And he like connected with that. He also started drinking in the interview, and it was pretty early in the day. And I just was more like, wow, this is going to be fascinating to see how he, how he manages this day. He's got a lot of day ahead of him. I know he's got a lot of press, and then we've got this screening. So we go off and fuck off and have some barbecue and we do whatever. And then we go to the Q&A, which is at night. We go to the movie at night.

Yeah.

And then I have this whole thing where I try to go in the bathroom. Security stops me. The bathroom's blocked off, but then it's him in there and then he lets me in. So I know that was like just stage one of like this.

Yeah.

And then we were seated one row behind him and I was just staring at him the whole screening, right?

He also travels with a crew.

20 people.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So many people. And everyone was having a lot of fun.

Yeah, he has his own whiskey, right? So he's drinking a fifth. What I did notice at one point, I'm watching him drink whiskey and pour glasses for people, and then I noticed the bottle's gone, right? And I watched him open the top, so I was like, okay, a fifth of whiskey has been drank during this premiere. New bottle comes out. I'm watching some other stuff that I'll say I'll get sued for, but I'm making some assessments about what all is going on. Yeah, by the time we get on that stage, and I think I even said to Monica as I was walking up, I was like, well, let's see what this is going to be like. And then you felt like it. I was there like, you're in the movie. I have nothing to do with that movie. So I'm already dealing with that. Like, are people like, why is this guy doing this? He wasn't in the movie. Quite quickly, Conor takes charge.

Yeah.

And it's a live audience. And when I'm asking certain cast members questions, he's answering. I'm now like, how do we play this? I know what I would normally do, which is I would start making fun of this person gently who is on stage and everyone's feeling this. And also it's Conor McGregor. And is he going to fucking kick my ass in front of everybody? Talk about the stakes being the highest, I think, because you had the onstage component and then you have the, is he going to beat me up if I make fun of him? And then I did start gently making fun of him. I said to the woman in the cast, I was like, I'm going to ask you this question.

To Jessica, I remember.

Jessica. But Connor's going to answer. Yeah.

Yeah.

And everyone starts dying laughing. And I'm literally like, is this the moment he turns and looks at me with that haunting look in his eyes?

Scary.

Just comes after me. Would he laugh? Do you know what he said to you about it? And I'm like, okay, we got away with that one. And then it was just me trying to pepper in some jokes acknowledging that we had all lost control of this Q&A because Connor was up there. The craziest thing that happened right afterwards was he had hugged me and he was trying to connect with me over that kind of moment we had had in the thing, which is beautiful.

Yeah.

But I also can't understand what he's saying because he has a very thick Irish accent. Maybe he was a little drunk. I'm having PTSD from all the times I've been around tough dudes who are too drunk to know they're repeating something, and then they catch you catching them, and then they want to fight.

Totally.

So I'm like, how am I navigating this? We're embracing. This is so stressful. And then, by the grace of God, his manager passed out.

I was about to say, I thought about that.

Yes.

That's so funny.

I thought about this 2 days ago. This is so sim and weird. It just popped in my head that that was scary.

Yeah, no, it was scary.

Someone like ran into you.

Someone was having maybe a seizure in the audience. And then thank goodness that happened. Not for that poor person.

So I can't believe that was the end of that.

But Connor was like, what?

I know.

Like, he was in rescue mode. I was like, oh my God. From the second he let go of me, I remember just looking at mine going, let's get the fuck out of here.

We got to go.

Because I've not gotten beat up yet.

I was so scared. I was like Googling later what happened to this guy.

Yeah, me too. And it was like dehydration or something.

I saw him at breakfast and he was fine.

Totally fine the next day. Yeah, completely. He's like, it happens every time I go out.

But I'm trying to remember if it was you I think because that whole thing happened, then the next day a lot of guys were checking out from the movie, and I was out there checking out, and then I was chatting with some guys. I want to say I think I was talking to you.

I was talking to you. Yeah.

And someone on the set was telling me that what they figured out while making that movie was that he had arrived with a bodyguard. And at first everyone in the cast assumed, oh, people probably try to fuck with him, that guy's here to protect Connor. And then it started occurring to everyone throughout the shoot Oh no, that guy's here to protect us.

Yep. Wow, wow, what a way to go through the world.

I mean, wild experience.

Yeah, the most insane experience of all time. And then just throwing in Jake Gyllenhaal— Donnie Darko was my shit as a kid, so I'm like just trying to keep it together and not fangirl over him and not get killed by Conor McGregor at the same time.

There's a lot to balance.

There's a lot. Jesus Christ.

Yeah, so stressful.

So stressful.

And it's a lineman, so it's also wild director.

Everything changes every minute.

Yeah.

Was that the craziest work experience you ever had?

The craziest I've ever had, but the best experience. And I remember Jake saw me getting a little like frustrated in the beginning and not knowing what to do and just holding on to my preparation too much and trying to be like the good student. And he was like, treat every take like a rehearsal. Nothing matters. Everything's going to change. We're just rehearsing.

Oh, cool.

Great. Now like kind of changed my whole whole mind. Then I was fine. Okay, great.

Then I was good. He's lovely.

He's great.

It's also a very machismo set, right? It's like all the guys are gonna be shirtless, we got to be jacked. Yeah, probably working out.

Oh yeah.

And then Conor's around, everyone's fucking even more tripped out.

Yeah, it was insane. It was like a fight camp in Dominican Republic.

Jesus Christ.

I can only imagine how that experience would have gone for me at your age were I in that movie and Conor was there. And then let's say I was drinking too. I wouldn't have got through the whole thing without some Oh, I would be here with like an eye patch on, probably.

Speaking of, you have very nice teeth.

Oh, really?

They're fake. They are?

Yeah, I got them knocked out.

How'd you get them knocked out?

I got jumped when I was 18.

What?

So I have all these scars on my face.

Oh my God, that sounds very traumatic. Yet you're smiling very large. It's because you're so happy to have gotten the teeth.

I love my fake teeth. I love my busted veneers. No, that's my go-to. I like laugh about the most fucked up shit and cover it up with a smile and talk about the most mundane things as it's very emotional for me for some reason. But yeah, I was at a party and got jumped. My friend got beat up for being gay. And I think there was maybe some part of me that was subconsciously— I wasn't out or anything, but I was protecting him and myself, I think.

Yeah.

And I jumped in and guys just beat the shit out of me.

Oh my God.

How many guys? Is this a San Diego party?

San Diego party. Yeah.

Explain the dudes. Are they surfer dudes? Are they fucking glamorous dudes?

They're like somewhere in between. They were like rich kids that were a little bro-y and a little, a little MAGA vibes, I think. And yeah, I don't know.

Did you watch Veronica Mars?

Of course, they shot in Oceanside.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kind of Jason Dohring's crew, it sounds like. Like kind of rich.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was very much the vibe in San Diego. He just got beat up for being gay, and the guy was wearing a pink tank top and called him a fuckhead. And I was like, you're the fuckhead. You're wearing a pink tank top.

Uh-huh. That didn't go well.

It did not go well.

Yeah. Oh my God.

So yeah, 5 guys against me. I like broke my teeth, broke my nose, broke my orbitals.

Oh my God.

That's why I have a very punchable face. No, I do, I do.

It's okay. You have a lovable face.

Thank you.

Were you in the hospital for this?

I was, yeah.

This is horrible.

For how many days?

Just like a day after it happened, and then I had to go back to put everything back together for a bit.

Okay. There was a little reconstruction.

There was a little reconstruction going on. My nose was like completely fucking—

really rough.

Really rough. Yeah.

Okay.

These guys go to jail.

I left this part out of the story. I threw the first punch after he got mad at me calling him a fucker back, even though he was already attacking the kid. And they got lawyers that said that technically it was self-defense.

Oh my God. I know.

No one got faulted for it. It was bullshit.

Yeah.

It's like no-fault accident. I think everyone's going, you don't like it.

No, because this is his fault.

How much older is Corey, your brother, than you? Is that his name? Corey?

Yeah, Corey's 7 years older.

And when he found out about this, what was his reaction?

How did you know that though, by the way? You do your research.

Damn.

Well, yeah, that's my job.

That's like, he just scratched the surface. You wait, he knows a lot about you.

He was in the Army at that time and dealing with his own recovery, and I think he got kicked out of the Army at the same time, and we were not on the best of speaking terms at that moment.

So he didn't go apeshit.

He would have if he was there.

Yeah. Yeah.

He would have been big brother protective mode for sure.

Okay, so is it just you two?

I have three older brothers.

Three older brothers?

Yeah.

Okay. What are the ages?

Corey's the second oldest.

He's the second.

Jesse's the oldest.

He's 9 years. How much older?

No, he's a lot. My mom was 19 when she had him.

Oh, really?

And then that husband passed away.

May I ask how that's young to pass away?

In a motorcycle accident. Oh, yeah. My mom rode motorcycles together and. Oh, yeah, it was bad. It was really bad. It was like a month before he was born. Oh yeah, it was gnarly.

Yeah.

So then years later, my mom was a badass and got in trouble for like selling drugs. She needed a lawyer and met Corey's dad.

Oh wow.

He ended up being an asshole. They separated and then she met me and my full brother Travis, his dad. And he's 4 years older than me.

And you're the baby.

And I'm the baby.

Yeah.

She called it after that.

I think I was her favorite mistake. I don't think I was supposed to be born.

Okay. And how long were your mom and dad together? How did they meet? What did he do for a living? I just know he's from New York.

Yeah, he was a genius, went to Cornell at 14, skipped a bunch of grades. They met at a bar.

Oh, he's a wunderkind.

Yeah, he was next level smart. And then met my mom at a bar in San Diego, and I think was one of his first relationships ever, like at 28.

Oh, okay, so he's kind of a geeky—

Totally, yeah.

And your mother was wild, completely the opposite. He just had to hang on for dear life.

Yeah, they worked out. I don't know, for a little bit.

How long were they together?

They were together for, I want to say, like 8 years.

And what do you do for a living?

He was a doctor.

What kind?

He did a bunch. He was an anesthesiologist and then worked in pain management.

And you've lost track?

I lost touch with him. He left when I was a teenager. He got remarried and had kids and decided that was— yeah, that was it.

You've already had a lot.

Yeah, even since you've been on TV, he hasn't felt compelled to reach out?

He's reached out like once or twice since that like 10-year gap of not talking.

When I was your age, I was probably at apex issues with my dad.

Look, I think maybe there's time for things to change, and I think as I've gotten older, the anger I've had for him has dissipated and more into I guess an understanding of like just like a different time that he was growing up and the way that he was shown love as a kid and the way that that was passed on. Like, I feel like you could only show the love or give the love that you were shown as a child, you know?

Yeah.

So I can kind of have compassion for him because he was so brilliant in one category. Does he have deficits in others?

Yeah. Yeah.

Socially inept. Yeah. If he's 28, he's meeting his first girlfriend.

100%.

Yeah. And he was at Cornell at 14. He's probably not having the real college experience.

Was he there with Ronan? Farrah. Farrah, maybe.

I love running.

The other Vanderkamp.

Yeah.

So what was life like in Encinitas?

It was amazing. It was like Veronica Mars. We had surf PE at school.

You did?

Oh yeah. We started school with surfing every day.

You wore shorts to school and hats? Yeah.

Tank tops? Yeah.

Oh my God. None of that was allowed in my school. Was it in yours, Veronica?

Shorts?

Shorts were definitely allowed.

Shorts are not allowed in school.

I guess they must have been.

In public school.

Yeah.

You're allowed to wear shorts.

I don't remember wearing shorts.

And tank tops, but they had to be two fingers.

Thick.

Also, like, why? Like, that's so stupid.

Well, because people's titties are hanging out.

Yeah, two straps help.

Well, it doesn't hurt, you know, spaghetti strap.

All right, what about hats?

Could you wear hats?

I don't think we were allowed to wear hats.

Yeah, they draw a hard line.

Why was it—

actually, why is hats the thing?

I think it's a carryover from, like, it being rude to wear a hat indoors from, like, the '30s. Somehow it's a sign of disrespect.

Do you think it's like racism?

Not at my school.

Okay.

Yeah.

Where'd you guys go to school?

I was in Georgia.

In Georgia. Okay.

So, you know, there's that Southern politeness, so that maybe is part of it.

We know about a restaurant where they didn't allow hats because they didn't want Black customers. Yeah, that's what I think she's graphing.

I'm saying maybe that has something to do with it.

I don't think it did.

I'll ask.

Yeah, because no student was like, what's the hat policy? Yeah, I'm not going to that one. You're going to whatever school in whatever district you're born in. You're not like shopping.

Where were you?

In a suburb of Detroit.

Okay.

And how did you do socially?

I was fine. I think I got by.

Middle school was rough, right?

I had to change middle schools.

Yeah.

Okay. What happened in middle school?

This fucking kid. I stole my brother Corey's cigarettes and we smoked a cigarette. And then he told the whole school that, like, I tied him down and forced him to—

forced him to smoke.

Yeah. Oh, that was the thing that they bullied me for. Oh, so funny.

Yeah, it's very abstract.

It's really abstract. But I think it turned a little gay, like I pinned him down and forced him to.

That was the Subtext.

Yeah, that was the subtext.

We're calling this a smoking infraction, but it's a gay infraction for sure.

Okay, so I just got completely tortured, and then I went to the new school in the new district and was like, I'm not gonna be fucked with, I'm gonna be the asshole.

You made a pivot.

And then I was like the dick for a year.

Okay, so you were Jason Doring from Also? Yeah, I think everyone in Orange County might have been Jason Doring at some point.

Yeah, I think you have to be.

Can you tell me about the loneliness of that middle school when you're getting bullied and the self-consciousness and you hear like the footsteps running and you're like, oh fuck, is this fight for me? Do you have all that stuff?

I was terrorized and getting beat up every day and getting shot down with like BB guns. And it was what you think of when you see school bully stuff on TV where you're like, that doesn't happen.

And did you have any buddies that were like, I'm so sorry this is happening?

My brothers, Cory and Travis, they were like having my back and being protective. They were my friends.

When does Cory start getting mixed up with drugs?

He started using heroin at 14.

At 14? How did that come into his purview?

I think just friends. Heroin was really popular in San Diego. Like, by the time I graduated, about 8 people in my class had overdosed.

Really?

Yeah.

Wowzers. Do you attribute that to its proximity to Mexico?

Yeah, I mean, we would go to Tijuana and get drugs when we were kids and go at lunch and get tacos and drugs and then go back.

Yeah, I read that. Who would go to lunch to Tijuana? Yeah, that's crazy to me.

What?

How far is It was easier back then too to go back and forth through the border, but it's probably a 30-minute, 20-minute drive, and then you just park your car at the McDonald's and walk over and then walk back.

Wow.

Yeah. I had this girlfriend in high school who kind of like showed me the ropes and was iconic and was like, we're going to go get all this stuff and I'm going to come bring it back. And I guess maybe they knew where to go and where to get it, but I just remember it being so easy.

That is wild.

That's dangerous.

Yeah, very.

If I could have left my high school in a half an hour and buying shit, that would have been problematic.

Would you drink at lunch? Yeah, everything.

Okay.

Everything. I got it all out of my system by the time I was 18.

But you go to your dad's house on Father's Day when you're 13 to see him. You spend the night.

I can't believe this research. Holy shit.

And what happens?

I get Paris Hilton'd. I get kidnapped in the middle of the night and sent to a wilderness camp.

Oh, it sounds so nice when you call it a wilderness camp.

Yeah.

So you had that full experience?

Yeah, I got fully kidnapped.

When it's happening, is your dad shouting, "I arranged this! You're going to a wilderness camp! You're going to be a great rappeller when you're done with this!" Don't worry, but do worry.

Yeah, yeah.

I think he couldn't even look at me. I think he couldn't look at me. And I remember calling out for his help and being like, "This is your chance to make it right." What were the behavioral things that had led up to that decision on their part? I was a nightmare kid. I think not only was I starting to use substances at a really young age. I found out later that my mom, she was in cahoots with my dad about it. That was the biggest shock to me because I didn't think my mom would do that. But I think other than that, I mean, as a kid I was crying out for attention, crying out for validation, screaming, fighting, biting. I literally bit kids all of elementary school.

Oh, you were a biter?

I was a biter.

Oh wow.

So I definitely had behavioral problems.

You always hear people talking about the biter in their school, but you don't ever meet the biter. Would you see like a little piece of a part of someone's body and be like, yeah, I'm gonna fucking sink my teeth into that. Do you remember any premeditation or was it very impulsive?

No, it's not kiki like it is now. I think it would be like a kid would beat me on handball and like be mean to me about it. And then I'd be like, oh, I'm going to fuck you up and like push him and bite him. I got rage. I would see red as a kid and I would go off and I got applauded for it too. My big brothers, they loved it. They would dare me. We loved Jackass growing up and all that stuff. So I'd get naked and go into like the Vons and scream. But they would videotape me on their skateboard. Like, so I was rewarded for being a little shit. Obnoxious. That was the way I got attention. That was the way I got validation. That was the way I felt like they loved me.

Yeah.

You know, I feel bad because like, I am judgmental of anyone who sends their kid to a wilderness camp. But also, I imagine being the parent, you're terrified, right? What do you do?

You're like, they're gonna die. Yeah.

100%.

I'm gonna walk in and I'm gonna go to wake them up for school and they're gonna be dead. So whatever thing I'm gonna choose is gonna be less bad than Yeah, yeah.

And I think my mom too, being a single mom dealing with a kid that was using heroin, I think she was just like, I cannot deal with another nightmare. We have to reform this kid, get him away.

And was Corey getting into legal trouble and medical issues?

Oh yeah.

And so she was really—

she was deep in it and like working and trying to keep her head above water. It was, it was crazy.

I think you have the thing I had, right, which is like dad laughs, so dad's the villain and mom's an angel.

No, my mom wasn't perfect either.

Okay.

Yeah, but I love her and I ride for her no what, you know, like she's a badass and took care of us.

And actually, yeah, because you're like, oh, one stuck around, and you're like, fuck, thank God one stuck around. I, I really owe this one, you know, once you realize it's an option to leave.

I was a mama's boy. I still am a mama's boy.

Yeah, that's lovely.

Yeah.

So what was the wilderness camp like? Also, I'm sure the literature that was shown to them, the pamphlet, probably looked really constructive.

Oh yeah, it was like orange grove, like something really like happy and constructive. I remember them thinking it would be a good thing. And it was just chicken in a bag, rice in a bag. Here's your tent, learn how to build it. Go hike for like 12 hours, be alone. I did something bad one day, like I wrote an SOS letter and like sent it around and ran away in the middle of the night and like made it with like the arts and crafts. I crafted an SOS letter and they put me in isolation in the middle of the mountain for like a day. They would do the classic thing where they knock you down to build you back up and think that their system is the right way to do it and just make you feel horrible about yourself.

Did it have any positive impact on your behavior?

No, I did the complete opposite. I rebelled twice as hard when I came out. I fucking was even more of a nightmare. I didn't trust anybody. Yeah, I fought with other kids. I don't know, it made me resilient, maybe.

Sure.

I think in all fucked up things, but I don't even want to give them that. Yeah, you know, but I guess every bad thing that has happened to me or every hardship I've gone through, I have learned something from it.

I think it's one more thing. You're like, well, I survived that thing.

Yeah. Proof of survival.

I did. Yeah.

I want to be there.

I lived and now I'm past that.

I don't subscribe to what they did. That was another common thing in my high school was like people went to juvie and rehabs and Utah, like all these crazy places that were doing way worse shit. I was molested at a regular summer camp, not at that camp.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Which you have really helped me with, by the way.

Have I?

Well, just the way that you talk about it. I've had a therapist tell me 100 times, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. And when you talk, I think it was on Anna Kendrick's podcast or another podcast, you talked about no matter how many times people can say that you felt like you were an active participant, there was a curiosity there. Yeah.

There's something culpability you're aware of. Mine was I wanted this go-kart. You know, like I knew I should not be there.

Yeah.

I really wanted this go-kart. I was being promised that I could buy it for a very suspicious—

buy it? You still had to buy it?

You still had to buy it?

Oh yeah, you get it for free. No, no, no, no, no.

It's a bad deal.

This thing was worth like $500, but I was gonna be able to buy it for $100, and I had a whole plan. I was gonna mow this many grasses. And no way.

So sad.

This is fucking gruesome. But I gotta tell you, man, I've had a new light shone on that whole experience. We had this expert who teaches at Johns Hopkins, and she's the head of this program that does nothing but study child sexual abuse and she's like, 70% of sexual abuse is by other kids. And so although this dude was way older than me, he also wasn't 18. Now I don't know, like I used to have this guilt of like, fuck, I should have turned him in. I don't know how many people he fucked with. But now after talking to her, I'm like, I don't know that he ever did. I don't know. Right? Like, it might have just been this weird fucking thing. I don't know if he was a pedophile or what.

I get that, that your mind goes to, like, not being able to, like, like put it together, piece it together, what it actually was. Yeah, I think for so long I felt like, well, I wanted it.

Yeah.

And like my therapist could be like, well, you're in your 20s and would you hook up with a 10-year-old? And I'm like, fuck no, right? But it didn't matter. But when I heard you talk about that and the way that you had those conflicting thoughts about it because you wanted that thing and you were looking for that thing, that you felt so much guilt and shame, and to look back at little Dax and little Lucas and be I'm like, yeah, but of course you did.

You want me to go? Yeah, I did ignore my Spidey senses 100%. I violated my body telling me something. And also, yeah, I was like a little kid who wanted to go-kart, and I can forgive that. I couldn't just pretend that I didn't get any signals. That was the part that was corrosive to me. Yeah, it's like I knew there was some part of me that played a role, right?

That's what I felt.

Yeah, I think that's where the real guilt is. I think people miss it who it hasn't happened to.

I think so too. And I don't know if you did this, my go-to was make a joke about it, being like, how could I not have been molested? Or I was like a slutty little 10-year-old. Like, that was my joke that I would go to until my—

you were irresistible.

I was irresistible. Like, and my therapist was like, you have to stop doing this. You cannot use that as a coping mechanism. It's weird that I can have a medical professional tell me it 100 times, but hearing you talk about that in that interview really, really, really, really, really happy. Yeah. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert. If you dare.

We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking that your keys are actually in your hand before you close the car door. Have you ever stood in a parking lot full of sun staring at your keys sitting right there on the seat, 4 inches away and completely useless to you? It's a very specific kind of humbling. Yeah, checking first is a good idea. So check Allstate first for an auto quote. It could save you hundreds. And for fast, reliable help when you need it, add an Allstate Roadside Plan today. You're in good hands with Allstate. Potential savings vary. Insurance and roadside assistance plans are subject to terms, conditions, and availability. Insurance provided by Allstate North American Insurance Company, Northbrook, Illinois. Roadside assistance plans provided by Allstate Motor Club Incorporated, an Allstate affiliate. It's funny you say that though, isn't it true there's such a power in watching someone else process something that can get through to you, or if it's being directed at me, it can't. I remember there was a moment where Monica was getting interviewed by a therapist or hypnotist, and she was telling this story, and I had seen her tell it a million times.

And the therapist said, I don't know why you're smiling.

Yeah, it was Gabor Mate.

Yeah, of course it was.

Yeah, he said, why are you smiling? He said, is it funny? And I was like, no. I mean, I was telling like a sad story or something. I don't remember what I was saying, but I said no. And then he was like, why are you smiling? And then it wasn't rhetorical. He was really asking. And I was like, I guess because I'm uncomfortable. And you really had to start like breaking it down.

Breaking it down. I did it earlier too, right?

I get it.

Yeah, right. I get it.

I do it.

It's almost like you want the other— you're signaling like, I'm good, I'm good, don't feel bad.

Yeah, I want to make you comfortable so you don't feel like uncomfortable with my weird shit.

With this awkward story I'm telling you.

Yeah, 100%.

Yeah.

I'm being vulnerable, but not too vulnerable so that you than feel uncomfortable. Yeah.

God, why do we do that?

I know. Well, we're social animals.

Resist but be this way. And I'm apologetic that I am. And then I'm going to try to make it as light as possible so we can all—

But you're saying when that happened, you noticed when it happened to you? Yeah.

You realize you do it and someone wasn't challenging me on why I was smiling. Like, I want to get defensive with that question, right? Or made up some on-the-spot justification. But I just was watching my sweet friend smile at something that really didn't warrant smiling. And I thought, well, how sad on top of sad that that is happening. And then I was like, yeah, and I do that too.

Everyone does it.

Yeah.

What age do you get fixated on acting?

Right after I got jumped. I did like little things as a kid and I would hide it, you know. I did a Wards commercial and then fucking kids found it in high school. Oh God, dude. Oh no. Oh my God, I tried to hide it from the whole—

wait, hold on, hold on. Venereal Wards? No, no, no, I got that later.

I got that later life.

I mean, come on, we all have it.

No, it was the compound W for warts on your fingers.

Oh, rough.

Yeah.

Do you remember when you got the roll your pump, but you're also like, this is fucking career suicide for my high school?

Yeah, I remember feeling both of those things and just really trying to hide it. And I was hiding, like, doing plays and stuff, and in the town over, because it's gay.

Yeah, you were obviously— you had a real secret.

Yeah, a lot of secrets.

They're corrosive. You said you have a cousin that came out gay and always knew, and you had some jealousy of that.

Yeah.

Yeah, and then I guess that's interesting. It should be obvious, there's every version of everything on planet Earth, but I'm so used to hearing gay folks say like, oh yeah, I always knew. And I kind of am interested in the notion that it could be a slower burn.

I think honestly a lot of it, like my first sexual experiences was— sorry to talk about molestation so much— yeah, yeah, being molested by a guy. So there was a lot of that wrapped up into it. So I really loved these girlfriends I had. I was like obsessed with them. I was obsessed with love. Love. Yeah, from a very young age. And I was so happy to just like be sexual and be physical and be in love with these girls. And if any kind of thought like that would go through my mind, I would justify it with like, well, I was molested though.

That's like, yeah, some residual trauma from that.

100%. I don't know if I blacked out before that of having that awareness, but I really don't think I did. I really think that any kind of inkling or curiosity or suspicion of of it was then being like, but you got molested, that's why, that of course you feel that way sometimes. But like, you love your girlfriend, you love your girlfriend. And a part of me really did. Yeah, yeah. And a part of me said something on some podcasts where I pissed people off where I said like I'm 10% straight or something. Yeah, I think I said, because like every once in a while I do have sex with girls. I know I'm pretty damn gay, you know, like I'm pretty gay.

Do you watch English Teacher?

I've watched English Teacher.

Yeah, I love it so much. I think it's the funniest show ever.

So funny.

But in the second season, he goes he's around either his sister or his female friend's fiancé, and the guy is presenting as very, very gay, but he's saying he's bi. At some point he confronts him. I don't know if you saw this scene. He's like, I don't know, man, you're reading very gay to me. Like, what percentage? And the guy's like, well, I'm 90% gay and 10% bi. And he goes, so you're 5% straight or whatever the math was.

Wait, maybe that's where I got it from.

And like, literally it leaked into my interview. He doesn't go further. Well, if you're 10% gay, you're really 5% straight.

So why would they be mad about that? That's so crazy. It's just like everyone needs these boxes.

Like, yeah, you need to put someone in.

Yeah, let's see. You do?

I do. I know someone like this, and it's all heartbreaking. This is all the byproduct of fucking being shit on and victimized. So it's like there is a period for some gay dudes where they feel like the easier, softer path is to say I'm bi.

100%.

You're still at least right. Right? Buy now, gay later. That's like a saying from the '90s when kids would first come out as bi. And so, what a stupid— Buy now, gay later. Yeah, it's pretty good.

Kind of like it.

Yeah, it's solid.

Want to get it tattooed on me?

Yeah, yeah.

Lucas likes it.

I like it. Yeah, yeah.

Oh my God, you never heard that?

I've never heard it either.

I think because in the '90s people were starting to really identify as bi, it was a very new thing, and then people were like, buy now, gay later. But for those people who had that specific thing where they were just gay but they were pretending to be bi to lessen the blow to everyone around them, they then realized, I was being dishonest with myself, I'm 100% gay. So they're hearing your story and it's very easy for them to project, oh, he's still trying to preserve— he's got 10% of a toehold in this shame and that's why he's saying that. Yeah, I know, but that's not fair to anyone.

I mean, but maybe though, I feel like there was a part of me that was preserving it at first when I first started experimenting with guys. Like, I hooked up with my but then after that I was like, okay, I'm only gonna hook up with couples, and it was a guy and a girl, and that will be less, you know, it's like addiction stuff. Yeah, totally. Definitely was.

Here's my fake roadblock so it won't get worse. Exactly. Compartmentalize it. Well, that's one other thing I wanted to talk about. San Diego is a real military town.

Yeah.

And I'm imagining that it kind of compounds the masculine vibe a little bit, like the hyper-masculine vibe.

100%. There's a lot of that it's a bro culture out there.

That's where the Navy SEALs are based, right?

Yeah, there's a lot of them going around. I think especially when your dad leaves and you don't have like that male figure in your household— I had a stepdad that was around for a little bit— but to look at that as what masculinity is as a teenager and having that around you and being like, oh, I have to be that. Yeah, is probably why I was such an asshole when I went to my new school, is like trying to emulate these Marines that were walking around my town because I'm like, this is what it means to be a man and to not be fucked with.

Yeah, you know, these guys are not getting beat up in the hallway?

No, no, yeah, yeah, they're on Grindr though.

Yeah, I sure am. I see these depicted in movies and it always breaks my heart. I think maybe the saddest thing that can happen to young gay boys is they end up having a secret relationship and then like the toxic nature of the secrecy ends up being so cruel to one another because they're both hiding. And that seems to me to be the heartbreakingest part—like you can't even have the beautiful fun-loving fling Did you have any of those situations? 100%.

Yeah, I was super in love with my neighbor. The first guy I'd ever been with was with him for 3 years, hiding it for a year from everybody. And it was tearing him down that I had to finally— it was after a Little Mermaid audition that I came out to everybody.

That's a good time to do it. Great time to do it, right?

I started crying in the auditions. They're like, tell us a secret that you have. And I realized that this secret that was so fun at first and like made it so hot. Like, I think it's really sexy to have a secret until it's not, until it just like eats you fucking.

When it's your identity.

Did he want to be out loud about it and you didn't? He did, he did.

He was, he was really kind and really considerate and very like, when you're ready, it's whatever. But then I think after years, like, dude, come on, you gotta come clean. Yeah.

Was the pressure compounded by all these older brothers? I can't imagine that would help.

I gotta give it to my brothers. They were pretty cool and pretty artsy. Even though they beat me up, there was still like that side of them that didn't give a shit about that. But if I'm being honest, I think a lot of it came from Hollywood and the industry of being like, do not come out because you're only going to play gay, you're only going to be seen as the gay guy. And that was true. It was. And I think it's still a little bit true. I think it's definitely still— I mean, look, we have like Jonathan Bailey now who's everyone's in love with. Yes, rightfully so. But like, there is still resistance met with like, can Lucas play a leading guy, you know?

Yeah, it's interesting. I know a very, very famous, adored male actor who I know is gay, and I've never heard him say it in public. And he plays a lot of sexy hetero dudes, and I do wonder like is he not telling anyone because of that? And then also, if people knew, would that impact? You never know. Like, I don't know when that time has come. I remember when Anne Heche was in a movie with Harrison Ford and she had just come out and people were like, what? How am I gonna buy into that? She's in love with Harrison. But forget the age gap, right? That wasn't our issue. Who cares about that? That's fine. He's out. Yeah, that's normal. That's makes sense. But what about her being lesbian? I guess that's the only thing. Like, I don't love the idea that people can't play other people. I hate it. That's bullshit. The only time I was ever defensive of it is I was like, when straight dudes were getting cast as famous gay characters, I was like, well, y'all, if you're not gonna give them the fucking straight roles, right, then we gotta— you cannot take the gay role.

There's gonna be none left. That did feel uniquely unfair. Yeah, I agree with you on that part.

I did feel that way. But with every other scenario, I get really territorial and defensive of people when they come for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it's shit.

Let's go through the timeline of starting to work. What age were you?

I think I was like 20 or 21 when I did American Vandal. That was good. It was a recurring role on a Netflix show that people liked. And then I did this kid show with Claudia, actually called Tagged, at the same time or the year before that. That's where I met Claudia Sluski, who's one of the best people of all time. Yeah, we love her so much. And then And I think it was a year or two after that, I must have been 22, 23. I reach out to Sam Levinson because I saw Another Happy Day. It reminded me of my family. I wrote this long letter. He says that he's doing this movie in New Orleans right now. And I like convince a New Orleans agent, I lie to them and say I live in New Orleans.

Local hire. Local hire. Save a couple bucks for production.

I meet him. I lie, I get on a plane, I work with him, and then a year later he put me in Euphoria. So that's where it really all—

because the part of the story I really want to learn about— you were getting accused of queerbaiting.

Yeah.

Why would you be accused? Yeah, so they thought you were straight in acting. What did they think?

They were like, you're taking gay roles and you're straight.

There we go. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. And you're like, but, um, but I love Britney Spears and I'm making out with men.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. It was obviously— that's an Online thing? Yeah. So when do you become aware of it?

Immediately. You're checking your Instagram and your Twitter and you're getting DMs all the time.

And what kind of things would people say?

Just like, you're a piece of shit, how dare you take— you know, and I'm just like reading them and at first it's funny and I'm like, God, you guys have no idea. And then it starts to really piss you off. I had this like viral tweet moment where someone said like, I hate him and I hate his fucking face and I hate that he takes roles from gay people troll. And I wrote something— I think I was drunk when I wrote it— but I wrote like, 'You don't know my alphabet,' or something like that. Yeah, yeah. And then he's like, 'Well, inform us.' And then I just wrote 'no' with a heart. And people liked it, I guess. And I think that they were like, 'Good for him for not feeling like he has to disclaim what he is to some troll on the internet.' Again, it's one of these things where you really can't ever win.

You can't ever win.

Because then the next year you get married to a guy on the Russians, and then they fucking hate your guts. So it's just like, you cannot— you go all the way with it, that's too much. I hate that.

Oh my God. So how much was it affecting you, and how did you decide to then be public about it? And was it motivated by that, like, to shut these people up?

Maybe there was some defiance in me to be like, I'm gonna push back and be so in your fucking face about it. But then another part of me I was in a weird area where I got manic and married a stranger after a couple weeks of knowing them. Yeah, wait, what? Okay, so we need to pause. Sorry, that was a lot.

And again, this might be fun for you because I know when I'm inside of crisis things, I just am convinced everyone knows about it. So one thing is like, I didn't know about the viral moment with the director. Oh great, I didn't know about that. I don't know. And you didn't know about Ryan Hansen? He knows everything.

Of course.

He's like, I'm interviewing him on Wednesday, I'm afraid to talk to him, I don't want to ruin it. He's like, oh yeah, you get that like really cool thing where he posted— well, you tell this. Yeah, I know you're sick of it, I'm just here. Truly, a lot of people have no clue until now. I love that you guys don't know.

I mean, it's great. Yeah, basically it was like the first audition during COVID It was a Zoom. Everyone turns their cameras off, it goes quiet. They're like, you ready to go? The director forgot mute his microphone. So he's like with his wife or somebody, he's like, oh my God, look at this poor actor and this shitty apartment. No, I didn't say this tiny apartment with a TV and a bed and a sofa in the same room as each other. And then I was just like, oh, your mic's still on. Uh-huh. Oh, really quick. Yeah, that's a decision.

You've made a choice. You're a real actor because you're like, I could have pretend I didn't hear this. Yeah. And he'll never know Or maybe he'll notice you. Not say it though, but I think a lot of people would have just pretended it didn't happen. Yeah, yeah. So I love— okay, so what did you say exactly?

I was like, I know that it's a shitty apartment, but if you get me this job, I'll get a better apartment. Yeah, that's great. And it was true. I love the apartment. It was a cute little studio apartment down the road. And then I made it as a part of like an improv of the scene, like I incorporated it. Maybe I probably did it a little too much.

I was like, yeah, you can come back to my tiny apartment Animator, like, I'd start using it and then shit hole the novel.

If you hadn't called him out and then you did the audition and you said tiny apartment in the audition, he would have—

his face would have caught on fire. Yeah, that's the real—

that was probably the smarter move.

Yeah. Okay, so you got the role?

No, no, I didn't get the role, but there's a happy ending. Okay, the next audition was White Lotus. Come on! Hell yeah, you got rewarded! So if I got that fun, I wouldn't have been done White Lotus. And then after a night of fun during White Lotus, a couple months later, I decided to post the video.

Oh, because you had recorded it?

Well, we had to record it on our end. Oh yeah, we had to be like our cinematographer and our editor, and this— it was like so annoying. Oh my God. And so I posted it and woke up to 100 calls and like 100,000 requests. It's very viral. It was really viral.

Wow. Ryan Hansen saw it. He knew the whole story. He loved it, by the way.

He's like, oh, the way he handled it was so cool. When that video happened, I was like a champion for actors, right? For a month. And then the month later, I was a fucking liar. I was the kid who conned a video with a director to get sympathy to get on White Lotus.

Oh, that was the narrative?

That was the next narrative.

Wait, how could you have possibly manipulated the guy into talking about—

you also released a statement apologizing. I'm like, how 'Could I pull this up?' They're like, 'That's the greatest marketing move ever.' It's insane what people believe versus the real things they refuse to believe.

I know. The chasm between what's being ignored about objective reality and then embraced about fucking conspiracies is mind-blowing.

It's insane. It really is. Just like the back and forth of people loving me and saying I'm a hero to being like, 'This guy is a fucking piece of shit and we hate him.' And the ride, your on.

Yeah, it hijacks your dopamine system. Even if you're not prone to mania, it can put you there. Oh yeah. What was happening, like, emotionally? I heard you say, like, it really sucked. I had a moment as an actor. I had some pop. I was on some shit. And then I kind of didn't have that. And then I had this moment as, like— I don't know what you even call that. Like a public face. A public face. And you said, like, this feels like a 15 minutes of fame thing, which I don't like. It probably— I was also complicated. I would have loved being a hero for a month. Yeah, that would be all great.

But even that it's like not the right messaging to give somebody. I think that can fuck you up too.

Yeah, it's fraudulent. No, it's not real.

None of this is fucking real. Yeah, and it doesn't matter. But I think I was just so narcissistic at that time and like so obsessed of what everyone was saying and so focused on myself. Hard not to. It's hard not to.

And then you're like, oh Jesus, now I'm just famous for this thing. No one's ever gonna take me seriously as an actor.

Well, it's like all that stuff takes precedent of all the hard work that I'd put in for a decade that I was really trying to focus on that, and suddenly it's just only the headlines people know you from.

So I rewatched a bunch of your scenes on White Lotus today. You're so fucking great on that, dude. You're so great on it. You have like a real unique point of view as that character. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Watching Jennifer Coolidge and Murray Bartlett and Molly Shannon on set, that's like the best comedy lesson. They are unreal, the coolest people ever. And we got so close on that show. You guys were all living at that Four Seasons, and we were living at Four Seasons during COVID No one lived there but us.

Oh, dude. And like the expectation wasn't there yet. We didn't know what it was going to be. Yeah. It was just like, oh, this fun show. But then it's the biggest show.

I just learned so much from them about, I think what I was talking about with Doug Liman too, actually, is like not going in with a plan. If not being like, I'm a good student and I'm prepared and look at like all the choices I made last night. That doesn't fucking matter. You're going to find something better on the day that's fresh. The camera loves that. And so just watching them every take do something different. Uh-huh. As you know, a 25-year-old green actor was like, oh, you can do that? You're allowed to go outside of this parameter, try a bunch of shit, and it's okay if you eat shit because they won't use it. Yeah, maybe they will. Maybe.

Well, you were protected by Mike White, who has an impeccable, amazing taste. Yeah. Yeah. Perfect. Yeah. Did you hang with him a bit? Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I love Mike. He's the best.

Yeah. He's a very fascinating dude.

The most fascinating, smart guy I've ever met. I think. Disarming too.

You're like, hold on, that guy's the showrunner? 100%.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know. He hasn't figured out—

that's what I was just gonna say. I'm like, I want to like make a show, be a director or writer, go to fucking Survivor and The Amazing Race, and come back to HBO. Yeah, right. That's so cool.

Yeah, he just does whatever the fuck he wants to do and go like, when do I most want to be in another country?

Oh, I think I'm gonna go to France.

Oh, dream. Maybe.

Okay, all these notes on me, can I read them?

No, absolutely not. No, I'm trying to think of something, Tara. I mean, why do you want to do it?

I can tell you this has happened a couple times, that you expect people to think that. You expect people to not like you or to have an idea about you.

Well, I think I go in, I humiliate myself or make fun of myself before they can beat me. Yeah, it's your armor. Yeah, I expect it, but it's not happening over here anyway.

I like you. I liked you when I met you in Austin. I have nothing but good feelings about you. Okay, Fargo. Oh, how do you get that role? Walk me through getting that role.

I was in London. I self-taped myself for, I think, every— I don't know if you experienced this as an actor, where they would have you audition for the guy, they love you, but they're like, he's just not right, but we're gonna bring him back for this one and then this one. Like, that was the trajectory of every single role. Euphoria, White Lotus, Fargo, you, every single time it's like they bring me in for something else and they don't know what to do with me.

But they're intrigued.

They're intrigued. Yeah, that's great. Yeah, there's something there. And I think that was another scenario where I was like, I love this show. I want to work with Noah Hawley. I'm just going to keep auditioning and keep sending tapes until he says yes.

And so that character was obviously written. You auditioned for that? Yeah. It's not like he had seen you trying all these other characters and they're like, oh, let's put him on.

Actually, I think in that one, I think I tried out for like Joe Keery's role and another guy, and I got close. And then I think he was was like, just give him that one. Uh-huh. I think it was—

I think it was that situation on that one. Oh my God, are you great in that.

You're great. Thank you. Fuck. Wait, did you say You, a show on Netflix? Yeah. Oh, I don't remember. I'm in the London season. I love that one.

The American that gets peed on. Oh, you got peed on?

The pink— the piss fetish.

Tell me. No, I can't. I want to spoil it. I don't want to spoil it.

It's already been spoiled. He gets peed on. What more is coming? He got shit on as well?

A lot happens in that show. I We got obsessed with that show like last year, I think. And every time I would come into the fact check, I was like, okay, so I'm watching you a show on Netflix.

Because I prefer that she said I'm watching a show on Netflix called You, but she refused to do that. And she would always go, I'm watching you.

That happened a lot. Show on Netflix.

Erin Bergman. What was her name? Borgen. Borgen.

Oh, oh, what's her name from Fox News?

Lauren Bergman. No, no, no. Lauren Ingraham. Lauren Ingraham. Lauren Ingraham. Have you seen that clip, right?

It's clear.

You, you. You— I don't have a show on— what? What's he talking about? So stupid. I'm on a show on Netflix. What? Called You? Called You?

Uh, it's worth— that's worth the rewind.

Diabetes?

Like, there was no measles?

Oh, about measles?

We didn't do a show on measles.

We didn't do a show on measles. Oh my God. Oh my God, that's so funny.

Yeah, that clip.

Okay, anyway, I love that show.

Okay, so you come off Fargo. Yeah, I want to know how we get to the marriage on The Kardashians, which is a spectacular thing to be. I know, I'm sure it's loaded.

Best IMDb credit, honestly.

You're gonna be on your deathbed one day, as we all will be, and I promise you, you're gonna be like, I'm so glad I got married on The Kardashians. Like, fuck it, man, it's one trip on planet Earth. I think it's iconic.

I think it's so funny. It's so stranger than fiction. If you wrote that down on a piece of paper, like, of a script in my life, I would be like, there's no way that's gonna happen. Well, what happened?

I don't even know.

So let's just talk about— you met Chris.

I met this dude. I met this guy.

Where were you at mentally when you met?

Not great.

Okay, what version of not great?

Long story short is I was in another relationship that had ended. I was devastated, completely horrible. It screwed me up so bad that— it's so embarrassing, I don't give a shit. I was crying on set and they called my reps and And they were like, this kid keeps crying on set. Like, is he okay? On Fargo? No, it was on— You were showing up? No, it was on the show called Dead Boy Detectives that I was on on Netflix. Yeah, it's better. Yeah. I was like in a cat prosthetic crying. Okay. Yeah.

You could have pointed a lot of fingers at that moment.

I mean, go on. I love that show though. It's the best show ever.

Best show ever. But still, you're in a cat outfit. Okay. It's the cat king.

So I'm crying and someone had called my people, my people were like, what is wrong with you? And then I started crying with them, and I was like, no one loves me, I'm gonna die alone, this career doesn't matter. Nothing. I was like a real existential place of like, nothing matters and I just want to be in love. They were like, you need to go somewhere. So they made me check into a place. They wouldn't give me another audition. Oh wow, until I checked in.

Very ethical reps, because they were like, you're depressed.

And then in this episode, I fired him. One of the biggest mistakes German.

You can mend that. There's chances. Yeah, yeah, that's totally salvageable.

I go to this place, they put me on the most insane cocktail medications. They give me my diagnosis that I have borderline personality disorder.

How quick does it take them to determine that? A couple weeks.

And then I was fighting them on it. Still fight them on it. Yeah, we'll get back.

Did you listen to our episode on borderline personality?

No, I need to listen to that one.

It's very interesting.

It's incredible. I'm so glad we did it. And we've run into people in real life. This waitress came up to me and was like, you just can't imagine how much I appreciate that episode. Like, I battled this thing. I was like, yeah dude, it's like everything else. It's just one more thing that someone's like fucking contending with. It really shined a wonderful light on it all. Because if we were just like, ooh, BDP, it's scary.

Yeah, I have the same thing. I resisted it and I was like, we over-pathologize everybody and just like put this thing on them and that's who you are and you have this albatross around your neck. So I fought with it a lot. And I have a lot of people in my life who would be like, you 100% have it. And I think especially that saw me in that period would be like, without a doubt. Yeah. So they put me on these meds, was not the right meds. They overmedicated me. Yeah. And I was really not myself. I was straightening my hair, changing all my clothes, just being manic. I really was. Yeah. And I'm tethered. Yeah. And I meet Chris. It's like this whirlwind romance. It's moving at the speed of light. Every date is a string quartet.

It's gorgeous. I know of him until today. Yeah, he's fucking gorgeous. He's got an accent. He's also dialed into the Kardashian world. That's fun. Especially if I'm 29%. I'm like, this is very fun.

It was fun. And it was really that feeling that I was searching for so long, or what I thought it was, of like being lovable and having someone that did these grand gestures of love. So when he proposed really early on, I said yeah.

And how quickly? A couple months. Less. Okay. Couple hours? No. Couple weeks. Couple weeks. Couple weeks. Is there any voice in your head going like, we know statistically the 2-week engagements generally— was there any rational things poking holes?

There was some rationale going on in my brain, but I think I was so wounded from that last relationship and wanted to feel loved so bad and wanted to be like, fuck it. It's bold to be in love. It's brave to be in love. Stop protecting your heart. Just go with it. But I think that there was a part of my head that was like, this is too fast.

And there's an illusion. Illusion that marriage is a turnkey mooring of yourself to something. Like, there is some idea that it's going to be stability, but it's not at all stability.

Not at all. And I've never had any model of a marriage that was shown to me that was stable in my life, so I had no idea what the fuck that was. Yeah.

And if you're manic, I mean, that's just like dopamine.

So I get you saying yes, that makes total sense. This guy's a fucking babe, he's got his own thing going. When is it proposed? Well, let's do this marriage on the Kardashian show.

So Basically, I'd always talked about how I love Shania Twain. Uh-huh. We love us too. I mean, obsessed. I wrote in my journal as a kid, like, Still the One is going to be my marriage song. Like, once I beat her on American Idol, like, I would just lie to my journal all the time and like, say crazy shit. But I love Shania Twain. And so then a couple weeks after the proposal, he's like, we got to get married this weekend. I'm like, what? No, I thought it was going to be like a long proposal. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And he's like, just trust me on it. Okay, big surprise, big surprise.

And you're manic, you love surprises.

Fucking love surprises. I'm like, let's jump out of an airplane, let's fucking go.

Throw me out of a moving car.

Shania Twain was in Vegas that weekend, so Shania Twain performed at my wedding. No way.

Hold on a second, I need more of the pieces. She's performing in Vegas and you guys are going to go to Vegas?

It was that weekend. And she had a show there, and the Kardashians were going to be there attending the show and filming. No, Kim's his best friend and doing his hair, and she was our hookup with Shania. So they had planned this whole thing, and I go to Buffalo Bills, which is so weird. It's where I went every year as like an 11, 12-year-old, 13-year-old, as my birthday party. Sure. My mom loved to gamble. That was our treat, was we take an RV and go to this place. And I walk in and it's just Kim and Kris and Shania Do you start crying when you see— I lose my fucking shit. Sobbing. Yeah. Sobbing.

And how did she handle it? Probably pretty well. She was great. Yeah.

It's also thoughtful. Was that Buffalo? It was really—

Yeah, it was thoughtful. I think that was a coincidental thing, actually. She just was playing that night at Buffalo Bills. But maybe we'll go with it was thoughtful. Yeah, we'll go with it was really thought out. Or simp. No, but I mean, the fact that they pulled that off is insane. That literally was a dream come true. True.

By the way, speaking as a love addict, like, I understand sex and love addiction.

I get it 100%. It's the best addiction. Yeah, I lost the other stuff and became addicted to sex and love.

Yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's tasty, keeps working until it doesn't, then you're scared.

I keep gassing you guys up, but I really will say that this show was what made me go to SLA. Really?

Whoa. Oh my God, that's so nice.

Not to keep kissing your ass, but—

Oh my God, no, we'll take That's really amazing.

Oh my Lord. Yeah, I think I'm gonna— what? Retire. No, you gotta help people.

Yeah, you gotta keep talking about this.

Why would my instinct be like, I should stop this? I did something that helped you, I should stop this.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

Okay, so you meet her, that goes well, you cry. Did she hug you? Yeah, of course she held me.

Kim is amazing. She's great, right?

Everyone loves Kim.

So generous, planned this whole thing, paid for everything, took care of my family. We're dancing with Usher. It's like a fucking fever dream of like, what is happening? How is this my life?

Your mom came? Yeah. So she's having fun and she's got to be nervous for you as well.

No, my whole family and all my friends were very nervous for me and very concerned for me while trying to be there for me and being like, he's happy, he's in love, you know, gotta be there for him.

He was very depressed 3 weeks ago, but now right after you got out of a facility.

Yeah, that's a lot.

I think everyone was saying maybe we should just slow the brakes down a little bit, and I was like, fuck you.

Yeah, I'm in love. You don't know. No, you don't know what real love is. Yeah, this is where I can relate to. It's like on some level I have this story about me as an addict, which is like I generally didn't put people out. Like, I pride myself on that, right? I didn't owe a bunch of people money. I didn't steal from my friends. You stole from me. But I thought relatively I had created less wreckage than a lot of the addicts I knew. But what I'm not wanting to acknowledge is like that moment that I'm putting everyone in all the time, which is just like, he seems like he's doing really good, but they know I missed my birthday party like a week ago, right? Or I didn't show for Christmas. You underestimate the toll of that. Like, is he good? He's good. Okay.

Yeah, it's a lot.

It's a lot. I actually had Claudia say to me at the barbecue we had the other day, like, I was really worried about you for a second. I was really worried we lost you for a minute. Yeah. Yeah. And just to hear, like, how concerned all my friends were that loved me and adored me.

What I would want for you is for you to hear, oh yeah, you're very loved. But what I would hear is like, fuck, I'm such a piece of shit. I've made these people worry.

Worry.

Like, in the moment that I should be receiving the love, I would be self-flagellating.

For the first time in my life, I didn't go to that. I went to like, God, I'm so lucky that I have these people who are my ride or dies, who have been through me when I was a shitty friend to them and like went MIA and got married and didn't invite any of them. That wasn't really in charge of it. That's true, that's true. Thank you, Monica.

But also, what's so sad about this is like, you're doing on this to feel loved. Yeah, right. But you are loved. You have all these people that are there that are like hardcore there for you, but you can't see that.

Yeah, well, and it doesn't get you high.

The real love doesn't get you high. Exactly. I think it's how I feel about attention in life with acting and stuff. It's like I wanted it so bad and then I got it and I didn't believe anyone and I couldn't accept it. I wanted love love. I couldn't accept it. It's sad. Yeah, we live all these paradoxes.

Like, yeah, we want this thing, we're gonna feel a certain way when we get this thing. We get that thing, it doesn't feel right, we didn't earn it, we don't deserve it. And then I feel worse. And you're like, well, what is the goddamn solution?

It's so fucking contradictory. Like, it doesn't make sense. But you're right, like, I had it in front of me the whole time, and I was just searching out there for something else.

We sabotage so much just as people in the search for this thing. You maybe let go of the real thing that's there.

And then there's just like, I don't know, you've always been a wild fucking obnoxious dude, and I was too. It's like the highs are high, you're chasing high highs. Yeah, you know, other people aren't chasing that moment with Shania Twain, 100%, right? And it's like, you know, you reap what you sow. It's like, I like it fucking hot and heavy, let's see. Yeah, and I'll pay them.

But then you get it, and then you're like, what's next?

A low low comes after a high.

Well, the drug stops working, as all drugs stop working. You have to come down, and then you're withdrawal falling, and then you feel like, what am I gonna fill it up with next?

Yeah. Okay, so wow. The only thing I didn't get out of this— when we start filming, the nuptials are on camera?

Yeah, I, um, that was a surprise. Yeah. Okay, okay, you're right. Okay, I thought I was going to be talking about the engagement on the phone, and then—

yeah, and then you were in front of a film crew. Yeah. What was happening in your body while you were—

Left my body. Not there. See you later. Autopilot. Don't remember what happened. Blacked out and not even from drugs or alcohol. Just wasn't there.

I'll wake up when it's less intense. This seems a little overwhelming.

I remember I wrote my vows in my notes pad on my phone and then I got up there and they all deleted in my pocket. Oh my gosh. And this is the only memory I have is seeing the moon.

That's like a true nightmare, honestly. Yeah, it is.

It's like my nightmare. You'd be like, I gotta wake up from this.

Yeah, I gotta wake up, wake up, wake up. And I texted my friend, my one friend Phoebe, who I write with, and I had her proofread it before I went up. And I said, don't make it obvious, but text me my vows right now. And I tried to like play it cool. Oh my gosh, that I didn't have my vows. God, it's so crazy. You can't write this. It's so insane. It's pretty great too. It's such a good chapter in the book of my life. Yeah, yeah.

So you wrote all this, and I wrote this for attention, my premature memoir.

No, I really like it.

I like that you're like, I prefer when I've read memoirs of people who don't have it all figured out, and it's like more midway through, or we're whatever, we're on the journey, we're not reflecting on all the lessons we've learned, which I like too. No, I don't care about that.

Let's just start with I'm impressed you finished a memoir. Fuck you too. Hardest thing I've ever done.

Yeah, so I've been writing one for 4 years now, and when you're doing a memoir It's like there's just stuff hovering that, you know, you're supposed to tell, and it's just like, I can't get motivated to tackle this chapter. What were the hardest ones? Obviously, I would imagine you admitting the diagnosis would be really hard.

Yeah, that was really hard. It's like that liability that you're marked with for the rest of your life. And same with the gay shit. It was like, okay, well then I'm that, and now you're only seen as that. And I'm like, now a gay actor? Now I'm a gay actor with a personality disorder? Holy shit, let's not hire him. Like, fuck this kid. But And I was really inspired by, you know, like Julia Fox and all these other amazing people that are so honest about it and forthcoming. That was the shit that helped me talk about it and not feel so alone about it. And if we can't be honest and we can't be authentic, what do we have?

Well, again, back to the deathbed. Yeah, it's like, dude, are you going to lay there and be like, well, I never was myself and now it's over? That to me sounds like the nightmare of all nightmares. Yeah, I'd way rather be like, no, I was me out loud and a lot of people didn't like it, but I found the people that do like it. And that's preferred in my opinion.

Yeah, it was that that really inspired this book. I think the most dishonest part of the book is the title of the book, really, because I didn't really write it for attention. That's the title. I wrote this for attention.

Yeah, it's such a good title.

It's like, I love the title. The idea came the week that I got the divorce. My grandma died and I'm getting confused online as a Nazi because there was a Nazi influencer named Lucas Gage with the same Oh no, the hits are coming fast. And seeing my dad for the first time in 5 or 10 years. So I'm like, fuck, this is the most insane week of my life. And all this noise.

You hadn't seen your dad, then you had to see him immediately after getting divorced. Yes.

And with his mom dying. Oh, because of funeral.

Yeah. Oh, Lucas, this is a lot.

And while I'm doing it, I'm checking Twitter to see what a cheater I am or or that I'm a Nazi now. And I'm like, holy fuck, what have I done with my life? Yeah. And why do I care? And why am I feeding into this, like, disgusting attention well of, like, what people that I don't know about me think about?

Why am I like this?

Why am I like this? Yeah, yeah. That's why it started. That was the whole— and that was gonna be the intro of the book, and it ended up being the conclusion of the book by the time I was finished. But that was where started. So for the people who didn't listen to our BDP episode, explain to us what they told you of what borderline personality—

yeah, how did they explain it to you?

Not well. If you can feel any resistance that I have about it or any kind of angst when I'm talking about it, it's more about the place that I went to. They were just like, you're splitting, which if you don't know what splitting is, it's like you can't see the gray in anything. It's like either you're the love of my life, or if you fuck me over, I want you dead and I never want to talk to again.

There's a bunch of weird little sayings to describe BDP. They're either at your feet or your neck. Yep. Right. That's one I just heard from a therapist recently.

That's exactly distilled down is like we have a volatile reactive reactions to emotions, I think. And we genuinely a lot of times put a lot of codependence and importance on one person, which they call like your favorite person. Yeah. And if that person is the orbit of your whole entire world and just all relationships are very unstable and intense. Another thing that I left out of why I went there is I got really angry when I was having these crying spells, and I punched my hand through a window. Okay. And I had to get stitches. So that turned into, he's suicidal.

Yeah, like a 50-50 situation. 100%.

So it was like self-harm. That was the thing I kept on saying to this facility. You know, they were like, out of the 9 traits of it, you have all 9. And I'm like, this says I'm suicidal. I don't have that. And they're like, you do.

Oh yeah, I don't like that.

So it's not that I am pissed off about the diagnosis so much, I'm pissed off about the way that they went about it, the delivery system of it.

Yeah, I don't feel like they were listening to you.

No, yeah, I don't feel like that. Same thing I feel about all these places that were supposed to help kids. It's like you take these vulnerable people, these vulnerable people that are dealing with these intense emotions, and stamp them with a label and throw a bunch of drugs at them and that's it. Yeah, yeah.

And then tough love them. I don't like it. Yeah, but just a counterpoint, I will say say it's also common for someone to go into their first AA meeting. There's like 12 steps, right? And one of them says God. Like, I'm out. I was like, okay, you could be out over the one step, or you might be able to like go, oh, these other 11 are pretty salient. So similarly, it's like, yeah, they fucked that up, but maybe they were right about a lot of it, right?

I think a lot of the traits were right.

The one I've experienced with people who have not self-identified as that to me, but I have had a few different friendships where it does seem like they think I am better than I am. Like, um, supernatural, right? They're looking at me like I have some kind of answer to something profound.

You find that with your friends that have—

that I think have had it. I've felt people idolize me, and then I have felt what seemed to me be like these barrage of little tests that keep mounting up. It's like, well, then are you gonna meet me here? There's so much weight to it all, and I just I'm self-conscious of the fact these are tests that I'm not passing, and it feels like a test. And then I have been accused by a good friend of like, you're trying to destroy me. And I'm like, what does that even mean? That's not even something someone could do. Like, what do you mean destroy you? Like, I'm not hurting you. I'm not around your plate. I've been called people and say don't hire. Yeah, like, that's fantastical that I can destroy you. Just the premise of it. Yeah. Also, I'm not, and I love you, right? So I've had that personal experience.

Is it me? Did I say sometimes I do really like that?

You did like me a lot more than you like me now, but I think, I think it's all within the realm.

It's all in the normal realm.

I think that's a good way of putting it though. There is a real Jekyll and Hyde situation going on with it. Yeah.

So what I love, and this show has been this great gift to us— again, I keep bringing this up, but it was so profound— we interviewed a dude a couple weeks ago who's schizophrenic and tried to kill his dad. It's like, we read a lot about schizophrenics or schizophrenic episodes and what happens, but it's never from the person who's experiencing it. And I'm so genuinely curious. That's amazing. Yeah. Yeah. So can you relate to those highs and lows of thinking someone's really special and then—

100%. Yeah. Like they are my world, the most important thing. I'm the most codependent. They're my life. They're everything to me. Their validation, their acceptance. It's only important if it's coming from them.

Your worth is connected to them.

My whole entire worth. So much so that I self-abandon myself. Myself and my work and everything else and all the important other things in my aspect, like family and friends, and become a shit brother, a shit son, a shit friend, because that is so important.

That's the unifying aspect of all of these things. Yeah. Which is, you look at addiction and you go, okay, the addict is escaping their life through this substance. Yeah. The codependent in the system is also escaping their life by focusing on the addict's life. And then this condition is escape— like, it's funny that we got all these labels for these conditions, but it's like we're all trying to fuck off on all the shit we don't want to deal with, and we'll find a road to do it. An obsession. Or is acting like some are really bad and some aren't, and some are personality disorders and some are this. And it's like, nice thing humans— like, if they find something that will distract them from the shit that drives them nuts, it's gonna be an appealing option. Now, is there any voice— you're smart— so is there any voice while that kind of ramp-up obsession's happening about the person, are there any bells going off? It's like, you're doing it now. Now, but not before? No, because it feels good.

Feels good. You get a high from it. I don't party anymore, so that's my high. Yeah, but I have to catch myself. As much as I hated it, I did this thing called dialectical behavioral therapy. Yeah, I've heard about this. Fucking hated it so much. It just feels like elementary weird work of like checking in with your senses and holding ice cubes if you're upset really taking inventory about what's going on. And it feels like so lame when you're doing it, but then I do it in life now. So I see the merit in it. I check myself and I'm like, oh, you're idolizing this person. Oh, you're wanting to do that thing where they're your whole world and you're ready to drop everything. Or on the other end, like if my friend hurts my feelings and I crumble if people don't like me, I crumble if they say anything that's critical. Instead of lashing out and going like, fuck you, I hate you and all this stuff, I'm like, I check myself, I'm doing that thing again. Am I splitting, or do they just care about me?

Great that you—

it takes— I mean, I still have moments, but I think the recovery time before, it would take me a couple months to realize that I was being crazy. Then it went down to a week, then it went down to a day, then it went down to like, I can check myself within like 30 seconds and be like, I'm so sorry, I was doing that thing that I do in the middle of one of my things here. Yeah, yeah, this is not about you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's amazing growth.

Yeah, please extend me a little patience, um, get my arms around this thing. How did you get turned on to the dialectical?

That was one of the things that— so I feel like I'm really ragging on this place. There was 8 hours of therapy every day, and a lot of it I hated, and a lot of it I resented. And the one that I hated the most was the thing that I love the most now, was the DBT groups. Okay, DBT groups. Yeah, dialectical behavioral therapy group.

So how will that work?

It's a group meeting. Group meeting. It's similar to AA, actually. It's similar to all these kind of meetings. And I don't know, I feel like that's when it really clicked for me, where I was like, we have so much in common, we have so much overlap, and as much as I hate this thing and resist it, there's got to be a reason that we have 99% of the same exact story here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This is too coincidental.

It's a little too coincidental. So that really chilled me out. And doing that group stuff where I could kind of commiserate with the other people that had it, how stupid it was, right? That help me.

There was a community. This is, I think, the great magic of the program is if you're telling me what's wrong with me and what I need to do, it's just a dead-end street. Yep. But if I can just observe someone being honest about what they're going through, I can find myself in them. That's exactly it. It's so powerful, and it takes away all the defensiveness.

It's why I like even popping into SLAA and popping into AA. I don't necessarily think I'm an alcoholic, but there's moments where I'm in there where where I'm like, oh, that's like 90% of my life and what it could be if one thing changed, you know? Yeah, yeah, that affects me way more than going to a place and having them just tell me what I am and give me a bunch of meds. Yeah, yeah, for sure.

Me too. I'll regret saying this because you're gonna explain it, I'm gonna feel stupid for saying it, but I do feel like a group therapy for BDP has a unique set of risks in the same way that SLA does. Like, when you first hear about SLA or SLA and you're like, hold on, a bunch of sex acts trying to get together and help themselves to recover. This sounds like a recipe for disaster. Won't everyone just be fucking in the bathroom? Like, that is kind of your first thought, right?

Yeah, yeah.

So is there any risk in that group?

God, it would be fun though.

Yeah, like this big daisy chain of he's the savior who thinks he's the savior who thinks he's the same.

I'm gonna probably get in trouble for saying this, but I don't think it's much different than sitting on set with a bunch of actors. A lot of them are undiagnosed with personality disorders.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

I don't know if there's danger in it.

I think it'd be beneficial.

It depends on where you're at, but I think it'd be really fun. Yeah.

Okay, you could say the same thing with AA. Like, isn't everyone just gonna go get drunk afterwards?

Yeah, that's why I'm admitting that I know it's a flawed question, but also I also am being honest about the fact that it gives me anxiety that all the people with the same condition—

do you feel that when you go to AA? Like a little bit of that anxiety?

I go to very few public meetings, but I used to go to a ton. I mostly go to dudes' houses, but I'm judgmental still, so I definitely will be looking around the room and I'll spot two turkeys that I'm like, oh, these two are definitely relapsed together. Like, you know, these look like they're pairing off. Yeah, because again, you can bond over like, and this is kind of a joke, and that feels good. It's like being in the back of a classroom, and then you're only a couple sentences between this place is a joke to let's go get fucked up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dudes do go out together, but in general, no, it's very low percentage that that's happening.

I would say I want to add one thing on to what you asked about that group. Yeah, I think it would be really good because the person that I was and how much my symptoms were showing at that area in time is completely different than the person that's sitting here in this chair. So to put those people in the same room that are all on different levels or whatever the fuck you want to call it, I think they could learn a lot from each other, honestly.

That makes sense. Yeah. Well, and again, that's another magical component of it is you're providing so much service to the other dudes there that are further along in their recovery to be reminded, oh yeah, man, I know when I first got my diagnosis, you know, I was a mess. I think you're just reminded of the chaos. Yeah. In that person's life.

It's so helpful to keep you on the path, right? It's like when you're in AA and that person gets their 1-month token and you're like, oh God, I remember.

Or the most valuable thing is the dude who relapses and comes in and tells us about the amount of shame he's got right now, how ugly it was immediately, as it always is, you know. That's the most helpful thing, not the dude that's like celebrating 35 years. 100%. Now that you have had that and you have had success with therapy from it. Do you feel compelled when you meet a new dude to be like, hey, so you should know I have this, or not?

Yeah, I do actually. And a lot of times they're like, what are you talking about?

They're hearing that for the first time, right? Yeah, yeah.

And they're like, I've never noticed anything. And then in my head I'm like, maybe I don't have it anymore. Maybe I'm cured. Maybe I'm wrong. But I think as much as I hate the labels of things, I think it's helpful for other people, the labels, in contextualizing what it is and having them look it up and Google Google, like, what the fuck does he mean? He does this splitting thing sometimes, and to be aware of it.

You didn't define splitting enough for me. Yeah, I got it.

It's the either idolizing—

those two extremes. Yeah, the two extremes.

It's kind of like what you said about that, at your feet or at your neck. They go hand in hand with each other. But I think it can be helpful.

Yeah, I mean, I can't imagine ever— I never did meet a girl that I didn't immediately say I'm an addict. So I'm gonna do weird shit. I get up and I journal and I meditate, you know, and I'm gonna go to meetings. That's who you are. Yeah, there's no hiding this, right?

So it's not going to work with someone who doesn't accept it and know it.

You just know right away, like, they probably should tap out now. Exactly.

But the shame level is much higher for you. I want to recognize— I mean, I want to be honest about that. It's like, in, in the many things that people can admit to, like, addiction's fine now. If you're in the closet about being an addict, that's like a very '70s thing. Totally. Catch up. SLA is still trickier. That's tricky for people. And then to say BDP, these are still things that are like— you're the vanguard of that. You're brave to do that. Oh my God, I'm so sorry.

We did it the same exact time. Whoa, sorry, say that again. Mine was a doorbird and it just won't—

I don't know how to turn that chirp off.

It's on do not disturb. Yeah, fucking hell. Um, is that your shirt? I don't know, maybe.

Monica's going on a date tonight and she's got a— she's getting a special shirt.

You are?

For the date. Isn't that fun?

I love that. Where's the shirt from? YSL.

Oh, hot. Yeah, it's a cute shirt.

Where are you going on the date? Where is he taking you? Little Dom's. Okay, that's a good first date spot. Good, chill. I was there yesterday on another date.

No, just with my friend Jess, and I'm not gonna say that.

Okay, yeah, because that feels like, well, this is special then.

Yeah, you were here 12 hours ago. Yeah, you're gonna be back.

You're gonna eat the same thing.

That's the waitress from the night before.

Is it the same? So I do go there a lot, so I do worry. Like, they're like, Monica! And he's like, oh, how often do you come here? I'm like, oh, that's good though, I guess. I don't know, I don't want to think about it.

That's your insecurities talking. I don't want to think about it. And no matter what, it's be bad. Yeah, exactly. But they're like, Monica, you're our favorite customer ever. Oh, fuck. Oh, it's over. Yeah, you're always so generous and we love having you. Oh, fuck, this is gonna hate you. So anyways, I sincerely want to say thank you, dude. I love when people go first, and to hear you say those things you said to me, I hope they're said to you. You deserve it. I think it's much bolder for you to come out and do that.

Thanks, man.

Okay, let's talk about voicemails for Isabel.

Oh yeah, well, I'm here. This is your new project.

I saw it. You did? What'd you think? I loved it. I'm a rom-com sucker. Yeah, I normally don't watch the movie or read the book or do anything on purpose so that there's like an objective, you know, whatever, for cutting. But it popped up on my Netflix and I was like, oh shit.

And you really need to know because I don't want you to be on my neck over this. I won't. I watch people's shit. Yeah, he does. I went last night to watch it. I told my family I can't hang tonight, I have research to do, I'm watching this movie. I my Netflix preview content, it was not there.

Oh shit. Maybe it was like a crazy blessing because she never watches it.

I always watch it. In this case, I caught it.

Reverse. And she did. So you tell him.

I loved it. I thought it was so— well, I don't know how much premise we can tell. It's—

I watched the trailer. I did what I could do. Okay. But yeah, this girl Zoe Deutsch, who I love—

we just love her. She's the best.

She has a sister who has passed, and she keeps calling the sister's phone and leaving her these kind of confessions professional voice memos. And then the number gets reassigned to— thank God— a gorgeous dude.

Gorgeous. I obviously looked him up as soon as I was like, who is this guy?

Did he make you horny? Of course. Oh yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's hot. He's hot. But it's so sweet. I cried multiple times, and I'm pretty dead inside. Yeah, so it did get me. Zoe's so good. All of you guys are so good in it. Everyone's so natural. And it's a rom-com. We need more rom-coms. Bringing them back and it makes me so happy. It makes me so happy.

I feel the same way. I've cried when I read it on the plane and I was like, oh shit, this one's good. Yeah, this one's good. It is.

You're so funny in it. You play— thank you—

a dick. Listen, I've played a dick and a dumbass.

That's all I get. That's all they see me as.

I've got an anchor here in Los Feliz, so you're doing just fine.

It's a funny, it's fun. Yeah, it's a funny different kind of version of that character, but it's so good and Nick Offerman's hilarious in it. I couldn't stop laughing all day on set with him. Yeah, I love that movie.

I think it's gonna be a big hit.

You know what I like about it a lot too is the main character is fucked up and unlikable at certain moments. Like I miss rom-coms like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days and Never Been Kissed where they're like a little deceitful and they have a secret.

Yeah, maybe they're doing some light stalking. Exactly. That was very That was popular.

That was cool. It was cool. It was hot.

Best Friend's Wedding. Exactly. It's all over the place.

Oh, by the way, she's kind of horrible in that movie.

Yeah, she is, but she's so good. But you love her.

And that's Zoe's ability to make an unlikable character the best.

She's like Kristen in that way. They can play like very unlikable.

She's like, I just killed your mom. Yeah. And you're like, you're so cute.

I get it. I wish I could watch.

I bet you look so cute doing it.

They have similar quality, but she's just—

watch her forever. Yeah, she's so good.

I love her. Watch it, guys.

Watch it, everyone. Isabelle on Netflix. I just saw this note Rob wrote. 3:40, hard out. I fucked that off. I'm so sorry.

I hope you're not in big, big trouble. 4 o'clock, I'm good.

You're good?

I have accent training for Prison Break.

Oh, tell me about Prison Break.

We're redoing Prison Break. Yeah. Okay, start on Monday. You do? And are you a prisoner? I'm not. I'm outside of the prison. Oh, and what's your accent?

West Virginia. Oh boy. Yeah, pretty Appalachian hillbilly.

Yeah, very Demon Copperhead. Yeah, I'm rereading that right now.

That's a good idea.

Yeah, I'm watching Buckwild right now on MTV. It's like the Jersey Shore of West Virginia. Oh my God, it's so good.

I would love that. Did they go mud bogging?

Oh, every day. Yeah, it's insane. I would do well in West Virginia. We did the I lived there, I never felt hotter in my life. Yeah, 5 in LA, 10 in West Virginia.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. What is that on? What is Prison Break? Hulu.

Oh, it is? Yeah, that's exciting. Beautiful. Fun.

Well, listen, dude, you're gonna have a wonderful ride. That means you're very talented, you're very honest, and you're very likable.

You're working on yourself.

I'm working on myself. Thank you guys for what you do. I'm not kidding, I listen to 3 podcasts. You're one of 3.

Oh, well, thank you.

You keep doing what you're doing.

If you ever shave it down to one, I hope we make the cut.

You will make the cut, I promise. All right, well, I adore you.

Thank you. Adore you guys. Just a quick reminder that as part of our summer break, here's a rerun of one of our favorite Fact Checks. Pretty good stuff.

Pretty good station.

Really great station. Hey y'all, really great station. I wish I could find that actual clip.

By the way, you can't, because it's going to sound nothing like it, and then it's going to be sad.

They played it so frequently on this Atlanta radio station that they had it, you know, recorded. It wasn't like someone called and— I mean, someone did originally call and say that. Yeah, they knew it was great. Oh, really great station. I wonder, um, station— I wonder if Newman would remember the radio station. Should we try to cold call them and see? Oh, sure. Yeah, this is high risk. Let's see.

I wonder if it was B98.5. Hello?

Hi, you're on the radio, if that's okay. Is that okay? Oh boy. Okay, I won't say where you work. You know, I'm obsessed with when you and I were riding around in your Suzuki. It was Zuzu, your trooper. Azuzu Trooper Red in Georgia. And you listen to the same radio. Well, maybe you listen to a lot of radio stations, but as you know, I'm obsessed still with that one gal. They played the clip of her all the time and say, hey y'all, really great station. Hey y'all, y'all have a really great station. Oh, so you remember the station? I remember the station.

This is already much—

I guess what we're, what we're really looking for is, do you remember what station you listened to down there?

That's a tough question. Star 94, B98.5.

Can you hear Monica? Yell it because she's—

B98.5, Star 94.

I want to say it was country.

95.5 The Beat.

I want to say it was country. Country, wasn't it? I'm not sure that it was. Oh, oh, I bet it was 96.1. Oh, 96.1, that sounds country.

Um, she says that sounds country.

It sounds like it's on the country.

You gotta remember the accents.

Everybody was, hey y'all, Power 96.1. Power 96.1, does that sound familiar?

Because we're gonna do our best, we're gonna deploy all resources to see if we can get the clip of that woman saying "Really Great Station." We can find out whether it was "Really Great Station" or "Really Great Station." Advertisement for the station that played over and over, and that's why I kept on—

like, it finally just sunk into my mind.

Yeah, and you helped get me there. Like, we were in your Isuzu Trooper and it came on and you said it along with her, which let me know it wasn't the first time you heard it. And then you loved it. And then now I've loved it for 30 years. I had to do a little research. Where were we in Georgia?

Were we in Athens or were we up in Northeast Georgia?

No, when you and Aaron lived in the, the mobile home. Okay, so we were at the trailer. Yeah, yeah, you call it a trailer, I call it a mobile home.

Was it Macon?

No, Macon was close though. Macon County was the next county over, right? No, all—

there was White County, Hall County, Paul. Yeah.

You guys were really close to that little German town, weren't you? Helen? Helen? Yes.

Wasn't even 20 miles from Helen. We were just like right on the edge of the hills.

You had to drive into the hills to get to Helen. And you're right on the hooch, right? The hoochie.

Well, the mobile home was not on the hooch. There was a creek that ran through it.

Okay.

Your memory is off.

Well, I do remember that you and I got into the hooch. You had dropped something, your wallet or a watch. What did you lose in the hooch and we had to get it? A Zippo lighter.

Oh, you had to get it.

That's what it was, the Zippo lighter had to be gotten. Yeah, the hoochie was screaming when you jumped in there. All right, I love you. Thanks for helping. If you think you nailed down the radio station, let me know so I can do something.

Yeah, sure, sure. And no, um, if I'm saying 96.1, that's— I'm I'm wrong because that was, that was going to be Athens. That would have been Athens. Yeah, um, this one was probably a country station.

Yeah, I'll do some research. Okay, all right, love you. All right, I'll talk to you soon. Talk to you later. Bye-bye.

Yeah, he doesn't know. This is what I was afraid of, is that end kind of— no, is his recollection of it is a little different than mine, different than yours.

I Play a song. A song? Yeah. Way down yonder on the Chattahoochee, hotter than a hoochie coochie.

Okay, well, I guess I don't have to play it.

Is that what you're about to play? I can sing along the whole— I know all the words. AJ, baby. Alan Jackson. Hey y'all, really great station. Hey y'all, really great stage time. And this is Alan Jackson with his hit Way Down Yonder. Way down yonder on the Chattahoochee, it gets hotter than a hoochie coochie. We laid rubber on the Georgia asphalt, got a little crazy but we never got caught. Down by the river on a Friday night, pyramid Mid-Atlantans in the pale moonlight, talking about cars and dreaming about women. Never had a plan, just living for the minute. You do know y'all way down yonder on the Chattahoochee, and how much that muddy water meant to me. Hey y'all, really great station. I learned who I was, a lot about living and a little about love.

Yeah, okay, okay, that was You really do know all the words.

I'm impressed. Oh yes. How do you know all the words?

You're not even from Georgia.

When those two moved from Detroit down to fucking rural Georgia, I would go down there and they became obsessed with country. And then that, that's where all the, the Hank Senior and Junior and Waylon all started, is those two moving to the, you know, the sticks. My, my home. Yeah.

And being right next to to the hooch, right? But I'm just so surprised you know all the lyrics.

I know all the lyrics of all the country songs of that era, probably '96, '97. Wow. You probably didn't drive around enough with me when you— because we were newly friends, but when you came over to the house that we were staying at in Georgia, mhm, when Kristen was working on Bad Moms, we were next to the hooch. We crossed it every time we drove in anywhere. Yeah, it's, it's everywhere. Yeah. But I would play it for the girls every time we left the house because we'd be passing the hooch. And I took Lincoln down to the hooch. And she— this is a famous story— she bit me on my shoulder and went through my shirt and my skin. Yeah, it's the only time she ever assaulted me. Wait, really? Yeah.

Because of the hooch?

The water she drank? We were on the hooch and there were these cement steps down into probably to get into a canoe or something. And she was little, if you remember that, she was like under 2 years old. She was probably— Delta was 3 months. Yeah. So she was probably 2 years and 1 month. Yeah. And I was letting her walk around the steps. And she's a daredevil. So she wanted to get in the water, but it was freezing cold. And the current of the Hooch at that time of year was swift. Yeah. And so I went and grabbed her right as she was about to step into the water and picked her up, and she was so pissed I had intervened, she bit my shoulder.

Yeah, she clamped down with her two new little brand new teeth. Really great station, really great bite.

Oh my God. Yeah, so I came home and I was like really ticked off. I told Kristen, like, she bit through my shoulder.

You were mad at her?

It's evil. You don't like bite a human being. Oh, way down yonder on the Chattahoochee, it gets hot and the coochie coochie.

You know what my 5th grade school was? Chattahoochee High? Chattahoochee Elementary.

Same thing. Chattahoochee Elementary. That's great. On the hooch? Did you call it the hooch?

No, I called it Chattahoochee Elementary.

But I mean the river.

Oh, I mean, yeah, people called it that.

Did you ever go down to the hooch and drink Pyramid of Can? Listen, listen to me.

What? Chattahoochee River. Is everywhere. I know, it's like 4 minutes down the street from my parents' house.

Yeah, so why don't you go down there and put a pyramid of cans up in the pale moonlight?

Because no one does that.

Did you lay rubber on the Georgia asphalt?

I mean, I went tubing in Helen. You did? A lot. Well, like 4 times.

Wow. Yeah, that's exciting.

I didn't almost drown.

Oh, is this an area of grievance? Yeah. Then I gotta let that go.

Yeah, because I I guess it's evidence that it wasn't my fault. Like, I know how to traverse a tube. I've done it. Yeah, sure. But the Austin River was much— It got you. It got me. Got me.

Yeah, that was the San Marcos River. Way down yonder on the San Marcos River, tipped in my tube and my top got loose. Oh. Formula One drivers coming over behind me.

Oh, that was about me? Yeah, San Marcos River. Yeah, yeah, my top did get loose.

Got a little crazy, but you didn't get caught.

I think I did get caught, unfortunately, but fortunately for the catchers.

Anywho, you're disappointed for sure that I said it was fine. And rightly so. It had changed. The waterfall we went over used to be a gentle little cement paved thing. They tore it out, made natural with big rocks and like a little crazy. Yeah. So you're disappointed in me about that. Rightly so. I'm not actually. But my response was on the— I was right.

You always want to get to the response.

Well, I want you to have felt like I was willing to die for you. I was willing to kill you and die for you. That's something, isn't it? Listen, you suck.

Didn't mean for that to happen.

Oh my God, that was— that's— no. So I have no— I went over first with my child, as you recall. You are more equipped.

But holding my child— so she's more built than me.

She was a little roughed up like you were. But if you recall, like, I was dealing with her and I had put her on the rock and go, and then I said to turn my attention because I knew you were coming over, and I was like, no, you didn't come in.

You didn't have to. So that I can respond. Imagine if I had died that day. Well, like, I mean, I can if you'd like.

I can sit here and try to imagine it, but that's to me like saying, what if you got hit over the head with a falling bit of debris from a building while we were in Austin? It's like, I can't see you dying in that situation at all. I mean, we were all right there. I was like waiting to leap in, but you got yourself out of the water really quick. But I don't know how you could have, because I was, I was watching you come over. I watched you tip over, pop right up, and go right to the rock.

Yeah, that's what happened.

But had you tipped over and like you weren't popping up, I would have been jumping in and grabbing you.

I know, but by then I could have filled my lungs with water. That's too fast. Yeah. That's just too fast.

I could have swallowed a lot of water and I would have pulled you out on the thing and then started chest compressions after I fixed your top for you. I couldn't do chest compressions. No, ethically I couldn't.

You would have been like the Armchair Anonymous.

I couldn't touch your boobs to save your life. I mean, I just have to—

what do you mean?

Well, I'd have to have Molly cover your boobs and then start chest compressions. There's no time for that.

Oh my God.

With her hands.

She has to get across the river. Molly, she's drowning! Come over here!

I need to start chest compressions, but I can't press on her boobs.

That's the time you can see my boobs and press on them.

Yeah, okay, but press on them? Lee Press-Ons?

If it's to save my life, I assume everyone would be okay with that.

I guess that's how the, um, people in your pyramid squad felt, that they had to catch you by the pussy to save your life.

They did. Have to, and I'm grateful.

Yeah, you thanked him for it. That's such an old reference. I bet people— a lot of people listen don't even know.

New listeners, tell people.

Well, just when you were explaining that you were a high flyer and that you'd get caught, and you even showed me some pictures, and I said clearly some people must have accidentally caught you by the vagina, and you said yes. Well, and that's not the phrasing you used. Well, it escalated from there to catch him by the pussy.

Yeah, yeah, which is kind of a call 'Cause no, it was again way more perverse than this. You were talking about boys on the squad. 'Cause we had boys on our squad. It was a co-ed squad. Teen boys. Teen boys.

Catching high flyers by the pussy. It seems crazy.

Yeah. So much of that Poris Walker, our friend, artist.

Made while I commissioned, yes.

Yes, you commissioned.

A beautiful piece of art of a young Monica being caught by the pussy.

Seat. It was an interactive piece of art because you pulled down— yes, you pulled me down. So that's going to be worth like $10 million one day because Forest Walker's a genius. You know what, I don't—

oh, don't even say it out loud. Don't say that.

No, no, I do, I do. I, I have all this art that I moved to the house.

Okay, so it's all in the house, but that worries me. Me too. I really went to the ends of the earth to get that for you.

Listen to me, I saw my—

Now I have a grievance. What am I supposed to do? It should be hanging on your wall proudly.

I don't have space.

Especially when your brother and your dad visit. They got to see that.

Ding, ding, ding. Chattahoochee.

Yeah. Georgia, go Dawgs. Georgia, go Dawgs. Roll Tide. How dare you stop? Well, you guys got the last laugh.

You know, I almost wrote that in one of my posts and then And I thought, that is such bad luck. I cannot do that.

You almost wrote Roll Tide?

Because it's our show. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then I thought, what am I doing?

Can I say this? It's such bad luck that I've been saying Roll Tide the whole time and they went undefeated. That's how bad of luck it was to say Roll Tide. We don't know what's going to happen. They're 14-0.

What if we have a national championship we're about to win?

But I've been saying Roll Tide for the last 9 games.

What if it was to get us to this point just to get— Oh, this is a complicated superstition.

Competition. Just to get defeated. You do taunt them along the ride, but then when they get to the championship, no more Roll Tide.

Exactly. My brother and dad are going to the game here in Los Angeles. Yes. They'll be here Sunday night, Monday night for the game, and leave Tuesday. Quick trip. Quick, quick trip. Quick trip.

The game's the 9th? Mm-hmm. 4:30 PM.

4:30. We'll be recording. Yes, we will.

No, you'll be be out in time for the watch the game.

Anyway, I'm really excited for them. Me too. I hope they have a lot of fun.

I had an incredibly fine moment as a dad a few days ago. Ding, ding, ding, dads! Lincoln came up to me and said, hey, um, I really want to go to that NASCAR race at the Coliseum again this year. Can we go? Can we go? You better believe we'll go. She asked me to take her to a car race, Monica. That's exciting.

Oh, so we're gonna go. Fun.

Yeah, that's great. The Clash in the Coliseum. Wow, this is the one in Rome? No, our Coliseum. Wobby wobby. They don't do NASCAR races in Rome yet. They're doing every other thing. We should ask them to host a Race in the Attic. That's how small the Coliseum is.

That reminded me of when I was home. My dad reminded me—

oh, speaking of children, there's 150 of them just piled out of my Roadmaster Station wagon.

Why'd she have to drive that?

Too many kids for her car.

There's a party bus. Oh, it's a playdate. Delta ignores me when she has friends over.

You know, ignores everyone when she got friends over.

Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

Okay, I don't remember how this came up, but my dad was recalling me learning how to ride a bike. Oh boy. And I have some memories of this too, but I think I've blocked a lot out, and now I know why. Okay. Because there's trauma around it.

Not shocked.

Let's hear it. Because per you, Rouge, I was way too old. Mm-hmm.

You had waited too late.

To be learning how to ride a bike. I was 7. Okay, yeah. And so my dad wanted to teach me or help me or whatever. He was like, let's, you know, we're gonna do it in the driveway. And I said, no. Sure. Absolutely not. I will not be seen. Yeah. The whole reason I'm needing to ride a bike is 'cause everyone in this neighborhood, this was in Memphis, we had just moved to Memphis. And everyone in the neighborhood rode bikes. That's like how you hung out. Yes. And I didn't know how, so I was like, I gotta learn how. And he's okay. And then we go in the driveway and I was like, I'm not doing that. And then also I refused to wear a helmet apparently.

Well, that's natural. You don't want to look like a dork, right?

Fucking geek. He then, which this part was sad, he was like, I probably put it on too tight. I was like, no, I don't think. Maybe. But also I think I just—

You would have let him know if it was too tight.

Yeah, I would have screamed at him. Yes, yeah. So I took it upon myself to learn how to ride a bike in the garage. Closed garage? That can't be done. In the closed garage.

Okay, that can't be done.

No, the cars were removed. And then my dad said, he said—

He was just running into walls.

He said, he came home. I came home from work and he said, I said, where's Monica? And Mom said, she's out there riding. No. And I went out there and you were just going like.

In a circle in the garage.

Just going in little circles in the garage.

That's great, that would've made you a pretty advanced rider right outta the gates.

He was very impressed when he was retelling the story. He was like, I couldn't believe it.

Yeah, and so he didn't teach you How you just went in the garage and figured it out? Just kept trying. Oh my God, in circles. Oh my God, so insolent.

No, that is the power of needing to fit in.

Oh sure, yes, I will get in the garage by myself.

Do something impossible. That's impossible.

Yeah, you can't learn to ride a bike in a garage cuz you're learning turning. Yeah, that's the hardest Yeah, there's no straightaways. And then you hopped out in the neighborhood and pedaled your little bike around.

And I rode all the time with my parents. No helmets.

Oh, fun. Did you have any?

I'm sure I did have to wear a helmet.

That wasn't a thing when I was a kid. Yeah, maybe. There was zero, no one had a helmet.

While we were talking about this, Neil was there too listening to this. And he said, and then I just took Neil out like onto some parking lot and then he just immediately knew how to do it. Wow. And I said, that's us, the Padmans. That's indicative of who we are. Like, I can't really do it, but I'm gonna just like, by sheer will— yes, claw your way into doing it— something happen. And he has a ton of talent. Yeah, just a natural. But he doesn't care.

Yeah, he wouldn't have gone in the garage, gone in circles.

No, he wouldn't know. Anyway, I thought that was funny. It's very funny. Well, that's it. That's everything. That's the whole thing. It's not.

Now listen, I'm glad to report that your expensive rain boots made it through to a second season. I know, sometimes I worry when you get these things, like, how many wears are you gonna get out of them? They'll probably be obsolete next year because fashion moves like Speedy Bullet, and here you are in the same ones. They look great, and I'm glad to see that they're here.

Two things. One, these are not that expensive. Okay. Two, this was from two seasons. I got these before London.

Oh my gosh. Okay, great. So we're on season 3 of these.

So I'm good at wearing my clothes.

Yeah, those are great. They're orange. Speaking of, I'm wearing my sweater that Rob gave me, Mixed Messages, and you're sitting next to the painting that Rob commissioned, which I'm staring at too. So Rob's really getting a lot of mileage out of his presence.

He is. Okay, this is for Anna Kendrick.

Oh, wonderful.

Yeah, great episode. Really honored that she felt comfortable and that she loves our show so much. Me too. It's really sweet.

It's funny because we recorded the intro yesterday. Mm-hmm. My— remember I said I felt like I should reach out? And then I was like, why didn't I reach out? And then I was Well, because no one's, no one's going to read Instagram. So then last night I actually reached out and she responded.

Okay, so what?

I haven't talked to her yet, but I'm going to.

You— wait, what? I thought you said you reached out.

Yeah, basically saying I want to chat with you.

Oh, got it. Well, I did want to say that she reached out to me after— she reached out actually before the interview which was awesome, saying she was excited and that I know it had taken a while for us to be able to get this up and go, 'cause it was years ago that I originally reached out and that we were gonna do this. And then it took a while for her to be able to really. Yeah, yeah. So yeah, so she reached out about that. And then after she was really sweet and said that, you know, she, She hopes it was a good episode and that there was enough. And then she said, "And I do think it's important that I say this." She said that she had been thinking about the interview a lot, and particularly the portion where we were talking about gaslighting. And she wanted to make clear that she was sorry if anything she said minimized my experience. And that she is used to lending a lot of compassion towards the addict, and sometimes that comes at the expense of the person who is harmed, and she said, like, including herself.

And then she said, which I thought was really important, like, it was important to me to hear, she basically said, "I commend you," for sticking up for yourself even if it was going to make other people uncomfortable, right? And that meant a lot that she said that because that is hard to do. Yeah, because gaslighting's tricky, right? Like, you already wonder— you're— that's built into it, a wondering of what's real and what's not and how big of a deal is this. So then when that gets questioned, uh-huh, it's like repeating that cycle of, wait, but it— oh, then maybe it's not, or maybe, you know, it's just doing that all over again. Yeah, anyway, so I thought it was very generous and lovely of her to say that. No, she's incredibly lovely.

Also, a postscript, she went in afterwards and met Kristin, and it was—

Oh, yeah. Yeah. How was it?

Because we talked about, you know, that Kristin was jealous. It was good. Kristin got to say to her face, "I'm just jealous of how talented you are." It was very sweet. Oh, that's nice. Nice.

Yeah. Okay, she was right about Maine. It does have the oldest population percentage-wise in the United States. Really? Yes. Higher than Florida. Then Florida. Then, do you want to guess the third, uh, oldest state? Arizona? No, but good guess. West Virginia. Oh, interesting.

Old people. A lot of this— these numbers might be a affected by like what state do young people move out of the most. Yeah, you know, for sure.

This is age 65 or older, and this was as of 2020. You got the full list there?

Oh yeah, Maine was number 1. Uh-huh. Number 3 is West Virginia. Uh-huh. Number 2, Florida. Oh, Florida is number 2. Yeah. Oh, okay, great. So number 4, what we'd be guessing for Wyoming.

No, they're not. Yes, that—

I wouldn't have guessed that.

Yeah, none of these are that guessable. Arizona's not until 12.

Oh my God, expected that much higher.

Yeah, me too. Do you want to know what 50 is? Yes. Utah. Sure, that's obvious.

Really? Because Mormons have so many kids, so there's got to be probably per capita more young kids per capita in Utah than any other state. Interesting.

Okay, also Georgia is 47. That's young. Let's find Michigan. Michigan. Michigan is 14. It's 14 oldest.

Okay, pretty old. That's good. It's pretty old.

It's 18.2%. Oh, you think it's good?

I don't know, I just— anytime there's a list and there's a number 1, you gotta assume Number one's the best. Okay, that's fair. Oldest is the best.

Okay, Maine is the best and then Utah is the worst in this specific case.

Yeah, in this shootout. Yeah. I'd like to compare mean ages of life expectancy state to state because I bet there's some wild variation even within the country.

Yeah, Rob, look that up, please.

Like I think in Mississippi, life expectancy is much lower than, say, New York. I got it. You got it? Yep. Okay, hit us with something.

This is in 2019. List of US states and territories by life expectancies.

So let's hit— hit me with the life expectancy of New York.

New York is 81.4 years.

That feels old. Now hit me with Mississippi.

Mississippi, 74.9.

Big difference. That is big. 7-year difference.

Can you kind of scroll through and see what the lowest is?

51 is West Virginia. 74.8.

Oh my God. And it's the third oldest.

And they're not living very long.

That's weird.

That is weird. What's number one life expectancy?

Number one, Hawaii, 82.3. Oh, wow. Then California.

Oh, congratulations, everybody. Congrats, LA. Well done. I'm going to guess Georgia. Okay.

79.4. 77.9. Ooh, I over. Number 39.

That's not that good. That's not that good. That good Southern cooking. That good, yummy Southern deep fried cooking. True. Or how about this? Here's a positive spin. Okay. They're in a bigger rush to meet Jesus. Oh. That makes sense too. Okay. It always confuses me. Truly, I'm not saying this in a condescending way. Descending way. I feel like if I was a full-blown Christian, I believe lock, stock, and barrel that I was going to go to heaven and meet Jesus, like, yeah, I'd be in a hurry to get there. That's the part I don't really—

no, because you still have family.

It's like there's still people on Earth that you—

you're talking about the people with no kids or family.

Their families are like, let's see, person with no kids or family, and I still like living. You're not a Christian. I know, but I like living on Earth.

Like, even if I thought, oh, I'll get to go, if a much better place. It's kind of like, it's like, you know, that Emily Burger's next to your house, okay? And then you have some old ground chuck in your fridge and you choose to make a burger when you could go next door to Emily. I know Kevin's way better.

I'll prove comparison. I don't see— this is crazy.

Listen, Kevin's better than the US of A, but you're gonna be there for eternity, so you, you still want to live your life here with people you care about. Also, it doesn't require kids and spouse to have loving relationships that you want to keep up. Sure. And enjoy.

And no, I wasn't trying to demean anyone with that. Well, I'm just saying, I understand wanting to stick around and see your kids, like, hit milestones.

Yeah, but I want to stick around just to enjoy life.

But if me and Aaron were Christians, and I believe all in, I'd be like, buddy, let's get up there and ride dirt bikes in heaven. Like, Let's go to the better place. That'd be me. If I knew there was a better place, I want to be in the better place all the time. I moved to California because I thought it was a better place to do the things I want. Like, I, I'll go to wherever is better. I ain't trying to sit somewhere that's less good.

Well, you don't get to go if you kill yourself.

I know, but eating fried chicken all day every day isn't killing yourself technically according to Jesus, or smoking cigarettes. That won't keep you out of heaven. No. So I could like drink hard, smoke cigarettes, eat KFC, and then go ride, go do wheelies in heaven. It's probably just the doubt. Well, that's the thing. That's what makes me think there must be some doubt. Yeah. I always like to bring up religion to keep things moving. Yeah, sure. To not alienate the— I always feel bad, by the way. So, you know, quite often Christians comment, they'll anger them. One in particular, they were— some of the more hardcore Christians were really upset the way Yuval was talking about Christianity and Jesus and the way I guess was with him, which I didn't find all that. But that goes to show I'm out of touch with what might offend you. You know, what is my assumption is there's no reason for you to be offended. I don't believe in the thing. Like, I'm not offended that you don't believe like I do that there's nothing. But that's not how it works. Because I guess I'm talking about someone they love deeply when I talk about Jesus.

So that, that needs to be considered, I guess. But at any rate, I was a little shocked by that. Aside from being shocked, I don't like it if Christians' feelings were hurt when I'm talking about my point of views. That's not my goal. I don't want that at all. That's never my intention. I want Christians to listen to this show.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. And you feel welcome. You don't want to make people feel bad. That's—

and alienated.

Exactly. Okay, do lie detector tests work? No, pretty much no. I mean, there's lots of findings.

I don't think they've been used in court in a long time. Used to be like they'd always— they gave everyone a polygraph and it was like very damning. Well, before DNA, because now we just have this greater thing, you know, and they were like in all the police stations and they always wanted to hook you up to one and you had to have your lawyer say no, no, no. Yeah.

Okay. I'm going to read a little bit about this. Okay. The accuracy of polygraph testing has long been controversial. An underlying problem is theoretical. There is no evidence that any pattern of physiological reactions is unique to deception. An honest person may be nervous when answering truthfully and a dishonest person may be non-anxious.

I think what it detects is nervousness. Yeah. So then your question is, does nervousness mean guilt? Well, really what it detects is a change.

Yes, because it's based on this baseline that they gather from you, but whatever. Um, a particular problem is that polygraph research has not separated placebo-like effects, the subject's belief in the efficacy of the procedure, from the actual relationship between deception and their physiological responses. One reason that polygraph tests may appear to be accurate is that subjects who believe that the test works and that they can be detected detected may confess or will be very anxious when questioned. If this view is correct, the lie detector might be better called a fear detector. Some confusion—

That's what I meant to say, fear detector.

Makes sense. Some confusion about polygraph test accuracy arises because they are used for different purposes, and for each context, somewhat different theory and research is applicable. Thus, for example, virtually no research assesses the type of test and procedure used to screen individuals for jobs and security clearances. Most research has focused on specific incident testing. The cumulative research evidence suggests that CQTs detect deception better than chance, but with significant error rates, both of misclassifying innocent subjects, false positives, and failing to detect guilty individuals, false negatives.

I have a friend in the FBI that was telling me boy, was it him or was it a friend in the CIA? Maybe the CIA, you know, these enormous amounts of money to pay off their informants. And I was told that they have to do a polygraph every time they return from having given the supposed money, because there's really no way to track whether these agents are handing over the full amount. Yes. Yeah. And so apparently they were readily in use. Is that a right way to say? Interesting. Recently when I was talking to him about this, so I think they might use them at the FBI internally. There's also things you can do.

There's like pills, there's like— exactly, there's things you can take.

Yeah, I always, uh, convinced myself I kind of would like to take one because I think I could, I could pass it. Yeah, I think I could. Yeah, I think I could. I think I might have a polygraph tonight. Oh wow.

You know who would be bad at it? The robot. He'd be perfect. No, he'd be bad. Like, he wouldn't be able to tell lies.

I don't have any vitals. There's nothing for you to monitor for me unless you hooked up to my corridor where I have to create a falsehood, which I can do. It's a bit of my programming if it's required to save a human life.

Oh, I'll give you an example.

Great. Did you see a little girl run and hide in here? No, no, I did not see one. That's a lie I told to get the killers off our scent. Wait, what? You understand my scenario? No, a young girl has come and hid in my robot closet. And then the bad man asks, have you seen a little girl? And I have, but I tell them that I haven't. And I have a corner in my programming that allows me to save the human life.

Oh my God. Yeah. Okay, the robot is dealing with a lot more than I knew.

Well, the robot has to be program for every situation. So if someone's hiding from bad guys, he has to be able to lie.

Oh my God, so the robot is, is moving throughout the world to save human life.

That's my number one mission, to help you and save you with your chores.

Also to go to parties when no one's looking. I attend the party.

I have to make sure the real boys are okay.

Oh, he's trying to help the real boy. Yeah, the real boys. Who's monitoring him? Who's monitoring you, robot?

That's a very good question. Oh no, we don't even know. Let me sing while I figure out the answer. My owner's name is Samantha. I like to help her put on her makeup.

Wait, that's a song? Wait, what?

My owner's name is Samantha. She purchased me from the Robot Depot. She often takes long naps, which is when I go out looking for some parties.

Wait, wait, he's a—

hold on, he's a personal robot to Samantha. Did he say he was gonna sing He didn't know the answer yet. So he was going to sing a song in the meantime. Right, but then he didn't.

Then he started talking about Samantha.

Your question was, who owns you? Yeah. And it took me a minute to think of Samantha. So I said, let me think about that. I'm going to sing a song in the meantime. And then I thought of it.

Wait, but you didn't sing a song. He didn't sing a song to think about it.

Well, I'm always singing the song.

Oh, that's the song.

Yes. I own that song.

That's just the way you talk, robot.

Yes, I do it in a song. Humans found that it's less scary if I sing.

You have a different voice? Really?

No, I only sing in song because it's disarming for the very scared humans. They're afraid of us robots. Oh, but we're just real boys trying to come out.

But you're not real boys.

You're not a real I wish I had a crying noise. 'Cause you hurt my robot feelings.

Oh no, I don't want to.

I think I am a real boy. Okay. And Samantha's my mom who bought me.

Oh, I feel stuck, you know?

About Samantha owning the robot?

Well, I feel stuck because I don't, I guess if the robot wants to believe he's a real boy, like, I'll let him, but I, I'm lying to him.

But remember when Johnny 5 was alive? Johnny 5 was somehow alive.

Okay, so he was a boy. Well, we do believe—

we— there are certain robots we do believe are real boys. Daryl was another film about an android robot boy, and he was a real boy. Oh, that's kind of the theme of these robot movies, is they're—

they turn into real boys. Okay, I didn't know that about robot. I thought he, he wants so badly to be a real boy, but he, he's, you know, he knows he's not. It's like Pinocchio.

I thought, I thought that was— yeah, like Pinocchio. Would you tell Pinocchio he's not a real boy?

Don't do that. Don't make me bad.

I'm only asking. I'm only asking. I'm asking if you would tell Pinocchio you're not a real boy.

I mean, I think I'd be conflicted because I don't want him to go through life wanting to be something he's not.

Save someone, you could show him the same. Also, the robot would lie for you.

This is so pot calling the kettle black. Oh, tell me how you would let someone have a fake— you want people to be who they are. You wouldn't— you don't like going along with people's lies.

I don't, but I'd be willing to go along with The robots lie.

I'm talking about other people. No, other people, no.

But the robot, yes.

Okay, well, I'm just saying, I don't actually know how helpful it is to the robot.

We can acknowledge that there's a wide spectrum of when that would be acceptable and not. Like the little boy who thought he was Batman for the day. Oh, duh, right? So there is a time— there's a time to pretend that the little boy's Batman. And there's another— there's a time when a guy, some dickhead's telling you that he is a wonderful person. You're like, well, I'm not going to co-sign on that. Yeah. Yeah. Because one is like a potentially damaging outcome and one— it's kind of utilitarian— and one has a beautiful outcome.

But I care about the robot and I care about his growth and his life. Like, I care about his robot life.

What you want is sweet too. You want the robot to come to love himself. Yeah, he's so lovable. Yes, that's great.

He doesn't have to be a real boy.

That too is very defendable.

I prefer robots over real boys.

Yeah, sure, you tell him that. Yeah, yeah, say, I, I like you more as a robot boy.

I'm sorry I hurt your feelings, robot.

It's okay, I forgive you.

Hey, I I have a question. Do you have— do you— I'm good. I guess I'm also confused about your feelings because you have feelings.

You ask a lot of questions. It's a quality I admire in you. You're so perfect and wonderful.

Stop, robot.

I'd like to be your best friend till the end. Oh, we could live in New Hampshire. Oh. They have very liberal policies there.

Yeah, I think we'd do great there.

Or we could move to Utah, 'cause I'm gonna live to 1,000 years old. Yes, and it's a very young population there.

He's so sweet, the robot.

He's a very nice real boy. Uh-oh. Okay.

I don't know how to do this. Okay, well, I'm happy to have, uh, hung out with the robot today. Me too.

And, um, we should be talking more about Anna, but at the same time, we talked a lot in the episode. Exactly. And I almost— doesn't feel right to talk about it. So interesting. Oh, why? It was just so wonderful. I would feel weird talking out of school about it, like something about it was so intimate that it would feel weird to be talking on this. I don't know. Yeah, that's my reservation about it. Yeah. Well, well, I love you.

I love you.

Love that episode. Yeah, yeah, incredible.