Transcript of Lizzo

Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Shepherd. I'm joined by Minica Maus.

Hello.

Hello. Today we have— it's always an honor to have someone that's a one-name artist.

That's true.

We call that—

You got to be pretty good to be a one-name artist.

I think that's called a mononym.

A mononym. That would make sense. Today's mononym is Lizzo, a 4-time Grammy Award-winning, Emmy Award-winning superstar singer-songwriter, rapper, and actor. Her albums are Cuz I Love You, Special, Bitch, and her new book, which is adorable, out tomorrow, called Lil Lizzo Meets Sasha B. Fluton.

This was great.

Wonderful, cute little children's book.

It really is sweet.

About her love affair with Sasha B. Fluton.

Yeah.

Oh, it's lovely. And Lizzo, what a party.

Really fun.

Yeah, buckle up. Please enjoy Lizzo.

He's been wanting to dance with you for years.

Yeah, this is— I wish I had had more coffee because then I would have really—

We can rain check it.

I would have brought the moves.

The offer stands.

I see. You're— whoa, what is that?

Cream top.

Oh, that's coffee.

From where?

Kmart.

Kmart? Do those still exist?

No.

No.

I think in Mexico they do.

Defunct.

Get comfortable.

It's a really good coffee shop, Maru. I don't know if you've ever had it, but it's very good.

Did you guys— when'd you guys get this?

40 minutes ago.

So it's melted. So it's soup.

I'm just kidding.

Oh, bitch.

I didn't know high maintenance like this. I was not prepared. I thought we were both from Detroit.

I'm a diva, honey.

Okay.

You're from Detroit.

Cool. And in fact, I know we both lived there at the same time.

Really?

Yeah, because I grew up in the suburbs, but as soon as I graduated high school, I moved downtown. And you were there because you were a little child.

Oh, I was a child when you were downtown?

Yeah, I'm 100 years older than you.

Oh, that's right.

Okay.

What part of Detroit did you live in?

I was an Eastsider. I grew up till I was about 9, and then I moved to Houston. So my memory of Detroit is more so like family, but I lived off of Chandler Park Drive. I don't know if you know about that.

Okay.

I know the East Side. Do you have any memories of like going down the Detroit River on 4th of July?

We would go sled down—

Or going to Hart Plaza?

Belle Isle.

Belle Isle. That's where it's at.

We would do Belle Isle, Balduc Park.

Okay.

And we would go sledding. And then it was horses after that.

Did you do a family reunion on Belle Isle? Yes. 'Cause that's the move.

Yeah.

matching shirts.

We actually do have Kirkwood family reunion green shirts.

Uh-huh.

And we would play volleyball and baseball.

Yes. Do you ever go down that insane slide that you'd go in the fucking potato sack and get caught?

Yes!

Yes!

Wow. Oh, no. So you really— you're really Detroit. What up, though?

And Belle Isle is the most life-affirming half square mile in America.

What is it? A park?

So it's a little island in the Detroit River. It was a public park. And it was pretty good size. And you would go on Friday nights and cruise or on Saturday and Sunday, it's family reunion time.

Oh, that's what we did.

Okay. Yeah.

And then you got the matching shirts. So as you're driving by all the barbecues, it's like orange, green, yellow.

That's so funny.

Yeah. Yeah.

And then in the winter they would water down the trees and so it would be like an ice tree and we would like play. And I had the most wild imagination. I imagined there was like a family of polar bears in this tree and I would slide in and I would be sitting at like ice tables. That's a real memory I have.

Yeah.

I just remember it was like one of those big pine trees and it was just frozen solid and we would just run and slide and play.

That's so fun.

On ice. I don't think kids today play with trees.

No, they play with their phones.

Yeah. They have a video game where you slide under a frozen tree.

I had a best friend that was a willow tree in Detroit.

Okay.

A best friend off of Chandler Park and Bishop. There was this giant willow tree and it was my best friend. And I would sit in the willow tree and talk to the willow tree and I would use the leaves of the willow tree. Well, I was a kid. I didn't know no better, but I would pluck them off and use them as a tail. And I would pretend I was Tails from Sonic. And then one day they drew a line across the tree and I was like, what does this mean? And my mom told me she was real. She was like, they're gonna cut it down. And I was like, why? And they're like, it's blocking. They told us that it was like a hazard and robbers were like hiding underneath it. So the city couldn't find them in the helicopters. Oh my God. It's Detroit, Gotham City. So I was like, no, I'm not gonna let them do this. So I was going to stand in front of the tree and be like, if you're going to cut this tree down, you have to cut me down. And my mom was like, you can do that, but first you got to go to school, honey.

No.

Y'all know what happened next. I went to school. I came back. It was a stump. I cried for weeks. I was inconsolable. That was my best and only friend.

Giving Tree is amazing.

I was going to say, are you able to read The Giving Tree without getting hysterical?

Fun fact, that book is about me.

No, I'm just kidding.

No, it's kind of the opposite because the little boy in that is a dick.

Yeah.

Yeah.

He's a—

he's a— Hide from the tree.

Yeah. Yeah.

Hide from me.

Yes.

Literally.

Okay. I'm gonna make a prediction.

Okay.

I guarantee I know that there was one night of the year that you were not allowed to go outside after dark. And that's October 30th. Devil's Night.

Yeah.

Devil's Night, baby.

Wow.

Devil's Night is so crazy. I remember that's not a thing anywhere else.

No. But growing up there, you think everyone in the country's got Devil's Night.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, when I moved out here, I've never met anyone that's done Devil's Night.

And mind you, Texas is an open carry state.

So I was like, surely they'll be driving around shooting guns in the air on October 30th.

October 30th.

Torching things.

But absolutely not. But also I was a kid in Detroit, so Halloween even was a little dicey cuz it was like, oh, that was when they was putting razor blades in the chocolate. Oh.

Which by the way, is that true?

No, it's not true.

It's an urban legend. I learned this in a class at UCLA. There's never been a razor blade in a piece of candy ever. The only time there's ever been poison or something naughty in candy is a parent putting it in the candy of their own child. But there's never been a stranger who's just doling out poisonous or razor blade candy.

Okay. So how did this happen? Y'all, because I feel like back in the day before like social media, there were just commonly known urban legends.

That was our social media.

But that just means that social media is, it's something deeper. It's something real.

Yeah.

We had an expert on, on these at one point. There is a math to them. There's something about the details are sticky. So like, They went through like 10 that almost everyone had. It's like there's this famous one about a girl who goes on spring break and she meets a boy and she has sex with him unprotected.

Oh my God.

And then when she's going to fly home, he gives her a present and he says, don't open the present until you're on the airplane. Do you know the punchline to this one? Does this ring a bell? She gets on the airplane, she unwraps the box, and inside is a miniature coffin. And when she opens it up, there's a piece of paper that says, welcome to the wonderful world of AIDS.

Okay.

I think maybe because y'all were super little during the height of the AIDS thing. But when I was in high school coming up on spring break, that was being circulated in my school. Like, listen, this happened to a girl 2 years ago on spring break in Cancun, so don't fuck around. And the expert was like, it's these details, the little coffin that stay with you.

I mean, it's stranger danger. It's like there to protect you, I guess. But it's all made up. Did you know the one about the needles in the—

In the chairs in the movie theater. No, that's what I was gonna say.

See, y'all are the same age, so that makes sense.

Yes. And I still look.

Yeah.

Every day.

'Cause you just never know what could be in there.

I agree. I am so with you on this.

Now, what about the myth about— okay, now I don't know if this is a myth, but are public toilet seats— can you catch something, anything, any type of illness or sickness or disease from a public toilet seat?

If you're a married man and you mysteriously end up with HPV, yes.

What do you mean?

All this shit was made up by married folks to explain why they got an STD somewhere. Oh, they were saying, they were saying like, you can get herpes from a hot tub.

Wait, so you can't?

No, you can't. You're not gonna get it. Well, you're gonna rub the inside of your vagina on the seat. You think your butt cheeks are gonna pick up some?

I don't know.

Also, most of these STDs die when they're airborne STDs. But what about like, um, you can get some fecal matter on your butt cheeks. Yeah.

And then you could get bacteria, right? I think you could get a bacteria.

But again, you're gonna have to explain how it gets from your butt cheek. and you move it somehow internally.

If anyone wants to write in if they've experienced this, please do.

Yeah, well, it's gonna be a married person. This is true.

Some people get in the hot tub naked.

Yeah.

And then it can—

And then they have sex.

The heat kills it.

But again, it's in 102-degree chlorinated water.

Good point.

Now, the other one that I was most fascinated by, and by the way, had I never transferred schools, this would've never occurred to me, but I went to an elementary, then a junior high, then transferred districts to another junior high, and then went to a different high school out of a different district, right? And every one of these schools had the exact same 3 rumors about the kids they didn't like. So there was the girl who got hot dog stuck in her vagina.

Yep.

I knew about that one. You know that one?

I didn't have that.

The boy who got his dick caught in a pop bottle or a vacuum. And I would go to these schools and they'd be like, you know, Brad got it. And I'm like, no, there was a kid Trevor in my old school they said that about. There's no way both kids did this.

I mean, we don't know.

'Cause you kind of believe the hot dog one about the girl in your school.

Oh yeah, I believe her kind of. She was a friend of a friend. I don't know.

I went to, like, a Black country kind of high school. So I feel like our stuff was like— there was a girl giving blowjobs in the annex bathroom, and there was, like, a long line. But I don't know if that's, like, an urban legend or, like, a horror.

No, that probably happened.

That definitely happened.

Yeah.

We had a girl under the bleachers.

And you know what? More power to her.

But I hope she's okay.

I really hope she's okay. My God. Jesus. When you think about, like, being in high school— when I was in high school, I really thought I was grown. I really thought I knew everything. But now I think about it, about high schoolers. Fuck, I think about 20-year-olds and I'm like, they're babies.

I know.

They're babies.

They don't know anything.

Protect the babies.

Yeah.

No.

Oh no.

The girl who gave a blowjob under the bleachers in my middle school was in 6th grade.

Jesus.

And it felt fine.

Jesus.

It literally was like, oh, it's happening.

Jesus.

People are doing stuff. And now I'm like, that's Delta's age. That makes me wanna die.

Yeah. Don't bring her into it. But yeah.

No, but that's what you learn to do.

You start doing like, wait.

Yo, same. 5th and 6th grade. And I was like, ow. Like you think back and you're like, oh my God, my heart. Like those poor babies.

Yeah.

A couple different girls left my 8th grade cuz they were pregnant.

Oh.

I had sex in middle school.

Oh. Oh, you was like a slut.

I just saw a shade in your eyes.

You fucking slut.

No, I'm gonna slut shame you.

Well, hold on though. Your eyes betray you. You go, you go, well, what?

This is also, what are we talking about? Like, we're in a show.

That's what we're about. That's what we do. The show's called Urban Legends by Monica Padman and Dax Shepard. You should have listened before you came.

You're on a tangent, honey.

Okay.

So what did you do?

What did mom and dad do in Detroit?

They had multiple businesses. The most prominent business when I was born, I knew, was a credit card business. So they sold credit cards. My parents always owned businesses together as long as I've known them. You know, before I was born, they probably had jobs and stuff and worked for people, but they've never worked for anyone since I was a kid. And I have memories of passing out flyers to this credit card company on the weekends and putting them underneath car windshield wipers and making it fun with my brother and sister, like a race. Like, who can get rid of their flyers first? So, yeah, that's what they did. They were very collaborative.

Were the siblings older or younger?

Older.

I'm the baby. I'm the mature baby. Tall. Sister's short. The oldest is the runt, you know, the little one.

It's upside down.

Yeah.

So why did they move to Houston when you were 9?

I always say for the mortgage business.

Okay. Uh-huh.

The mortgage business.

Was there some heat on everyone?

Listen, you know what it's like. You have to evacuate Detroit. You don't leave Detroit casually. You have to, like, flee. And I remember one day I was like, like in Detroit. And then the next day I was in Houston. My mom was like, hey, we're gonna move to Houston. I was like, no. And then I blinked and we were there. So it happened damn near overnight. Not a lot of heads up.

That's why I'm asking was maybe there was some heat. Maybe were these credit cards, some of them were maybe a little not so hot.

No, I don't think the credit cards were, but I'll say my dad was a very infamous person. You either loved him or you wanted to kill him.

Okay. Okay. Big personality.

Yes. Libra.

Okay.

Yeah.

What does that mean, Monica?

Well, yeah.

Good at lying. Charming.

Good at lying.

Yeah.

You might be a rising.

Yeah. Well, let's look. He might be.

It gives that. Or maybe a little Pisces or Aries, a little bit rising.

That's my rising.

Oh, nice. Yeah.

Okay.

Scary.

Oh, but I'm a double Virgo otherwise, so I'm good.

Yeah. You know what I love about you guys who like astrology is like, no matter— no matter what, y'all who like astrology and believe in it, No matter what it is, you guys are equally pumped. That's what's neat about it. It's like, there's no strata of what's good and bad. It's just like, you're a Pisces? Oh, great. And then, oh, you're a Capricorn?

Ooh! Because it's good to know. I think you can tell who really is into the charting of it all and who's just like early horoscopes kind of into astrology, because they'll be like, oh, oh, that's because you have a very basic understanding of the signs, but all the signs are great because we're made up of all of them. We're made up of the stars. You know, it's really that. And I think we really nerd out because we like, I'm speaking for you, but I like Sailor Moon. It's an anime.

I thought it was one of y'all's gurus who knows a lot about the charts.

Okay, I'm gonna ask.

Doesn't it sound like an astrologist name?

Sailor Moon.

Sailor Moon.

That is a fire name for astrology.

That would be an account. Yeah. Sailor Moon, like as an astrology account.

Maybe you should take it.

If Naoko Takeuchi will let me have the name Sailor Moon, then—

They're not gonna come after you on Instagram.

Oh, baby, that IP is locked in. That IP is Barbie deep.

They probably already own the handle on Instagram.

The Sailor Moon handle's taken.

It's taken. We haven't looked, but we feel pretty confident it's taken.

Master Sailor Moon. There's something there though. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Wait, I know all your things. So you had, you had Corn Roll Click.

Oh, you know my music things. Gotcha.

Yeah. Or Girl Always 3 Rs.

Girl.

Girl, 3 Rs though. I spelled it a lot today, so I'm like, is it 2 Rs or 4 Rs?

I use it a lot now. It's very—

That is fantastic.

You'll leave here today with something. It'll have been worth your while.

Thank you so much. Yeah.

Okay. So you land down in Houston and do you remember that being an overwhelming transition or did you take to it? Of course, I've read Lil Lizzo and Sasha B. Fluton.

Yeah.

So I know that version of the story, but what was your overall— did you feel fish out of water-y?

Yes. I think that it was a culture shock because I was like, I don't wanna see horses in the roads instead of cars. No, I was very dramatic. And I did see horses and was like, oh shit.

hey.

So that was big. But also, my entire family is in Detroit, and my church was my whole family. Like, versus in Houston, there are megachurches where it's just a congregation of the people from the city. Also, by the way, the pastor is flying in on a helicopter, coming down, preaching, getting back in the helicopter, flying to his other megachurch.

So he can spread the word quicker.

Exactly. But our church, the main room was the size of this.

Was there music in that church?

Yes. The choir are my cousins and aunties. The band are my cousins. The pastor is my uncle. It's all my family.

Wow.

It scares me. I say this all the time. I'm not religious. And in fact, religion scares me a bit, but I do fear its decline because like, yeah, we just had Anderson .Paak on. He learned to play drums at the church.

Yes.

Where are all those kids in the decline of that? Like, where are they gonna get the music education? Scares me a little bit.

That's what I'm worried about too. I don't even think there can be another Whitney Houston or anyone close to her because church is so formative. You're born with the gift, of course, but in church, you kind of learn how to release your inhibitions. There's something about catching the spirit, and there's something about the Holy Ghost, and there's something about church music that allows you to express yourself in an uninhibited way. And that's what Whitney brought to secular stages. She brought the church to the club.

Yeah. You're also already in community, which is already a heightened state. And then you add on music, which also is a heightened state, and it kind of can reach a level that otherwise it can't.

And everyone's rooting for you in the church. Like, no one's at church like, ugh, that's bad.

Because it's not like— I'm sorry, somebody calling me?

Oh, you can answer it.

No, it's my driveway.

Can we peep this case real quick? Oh yeah.

It's really nice.

Speaking of Sailor Moon.

No, I didn't know why your purse was so big and now I do. 'Cause what other purse would that phone fit in? Wow.

This is from Sailor Moon. It's her crescent wand. So she's like, you really are into it. Make up. And then the powers come out of it and she turns into Sailor Moon. Yeah. But I also hate touching phones. It burns my fingertips. Sorry. That's a little side note about me. I'm sensitive. I'm a sensitive kid. Wait, we were talking about something. Church. Church.

People rooting for you.

People rooting for you. Because it's not about that. It's about God.

Yes.

So we're singing for God.

Yes.

We're using our talents and our gifts for God. And I think that's the difference.

There's a humility in it.

Yes. Because when you think about pop music and in the pop space, most singers are singing for the coin. They're singing for the check. They're singing for the glory.

Approval.

The clout. The approval. Because they have to. But when you see a person who was anointed and who is singing for a higher purpose, it just hits differently. I don't see it anymore. It's declining at a rapid rate.

So in Houston, what church did you end up at? One of the megas?

We ended up at a mega.

Did the pastor ever have a scandal while you were there? Because what they also like to do with the private jets is they also like to get in a little trouble in the sheets, it seems.

You know, I went to a few churches. I'm not going to name names because we don't want, but I went to a few megas, but I will name one. I went to Lakewood for a while. I remember when Pastor Joel's father had passed away. 'Cause he was the head of Lakewood. And I remember when he passed away, there was a huge billboard. It was like, we're gonna miss you. And then Joel begrudgingly took over. Joel Osteen? Yes. He was like the young, cool PK.

Oh my God.

Preacher kid. But I remember he took over and it just started going crazy.

He bought the Charlotte Hornets stadium, right? That's Joel Osteen.

Well, he bought the arena that I know about.

Yeah. This dude owns arenas.

Yeah. And then moved the church into that arena. And I was like, oh, they big balling now. I was driving by him on the highway. I said, let me see what it's all about. And I checked it out. So, I did a lot of church hopping, but my family, I think they were very turned off. Our first year there, we went to church, and it was a megachurch, and it was New Year's Eve, actually. I remember we went to church, and, you know, we pray into the new year. There was a lot of issues. I feel like my family was very uncomfortable, but it's a weird story. There was a huge power outage at midnight, and everything shut down. And my dad was, like, a very superstitious kind of person, and he had already been feeling weird. And when that happened, he was like, I don't want to do this anymore. Like, that was a sign that we shouldn't be going to these churches. So, my family stopped going to church when I was very young. All together.

Wow.

Oh, wow.

I am the only one who continued to pursue church and congregation. And eventually, with my best friend, I found a church, and it was very small. And we would go together. And it was so small that, like, we would have to move locations. He would rent out buildings, and sometimes they wouldn't make rent, so we would move to another building. But wherever we were, we would always come together. It would be the same congregation. We would sit and we would play, and it was very, very grassroots. And I loved it 'cause I was hanging out with my best friends on the weekend. But I also loved it because it gave me a place to be sacred. I crave that.

Yeah. Yeah.

I think it's important.

And so how did you do with the other kids in school?

Um...

You said they were country. Were you in a rural area?

Baby, I was in the SWAT. I was in Southwest Alief, Texas, which is southwest of Houston. So this is Houston and the H, as we like to say. And then there's the North Side, South Side, West Side, which is Katy. And then there's East Side, which we don't really go over there because that's basically Louisiana. And I was down here in the SWAT.

Okay.

So it's all the greater Houston area, but we was in the SWAT down here. Mind you, 30 years prior, it was all cows in that area.

Okay. So there's still fields.

Down Highway 6, there's just fields, old plantations, prisons, which are—

Plantation.

Yes, exactly. Exactly.

Very much that. And so, when we moved into our neighborhood, we were the second house. I remember when the neighborhood was being built and our house was being kind of put up, it was all grass. And then it developed really quickly, and it became real country urban. The culture moved very quickly. My sister older than me, we went to the same high school. Elsik was very kind of artsy. By the time I got there, it was like, the trap. Like, it took 4 years for it to be the trap. It was fun though. I loved high school. Middle school is where it was rough. You was out here cracking and shit.

That was my— funny enough, Monica was born in '87. You were born in '88. 4/27/88. And that is my peak year of my entire life. And I've had a charmed life, but 7th grade is the best year of my whole life. It went all downhill in high school.

What happened in high school?

Okay, so in 8th grade, I was 5'11, 160. In 9th grade, I was 6'3, 150. So I lost £10, grew 4 inches. This nose came in, but this all didn't come in. So it's just a huge nose, terrible hairdo. My brother had me get a perm, and it was long and bad with a perm up top. Huge nose, acne, rake figure. It just was a bummer. Brand new school.

What's wrong with being tall?

It's okay if you're tall unless you're 150. And 6'3, that's not enough weight on that frame. You feel me?

Yeah.

I feel you. I was real beanpole-y.

Oh, so they were calling you beanpole and shit?

Well, I fought, so they don't—

You were fighting them?

Yeah, I fought them.

Yeah, man. Body shaming goes both ways.

Of course.

Nobody likes what they got, period.

Yeah.

But also, if somebody's mean enough, they'll find a way to make fun of you.

Oh, of course. If you would've talked about my nose, I was devastated. Right? Or my acne.

Or I remember it was my shoes. They would be like, oh, so you slouchy shoes, your shoes slouch. I'm like, why would you say that?

How did you know? And also that means nothing. What does that mean? What's a slouchy shoe?

I don't even know.

I have wide feet.

Oh, wow.

So my shoes would kind of slouch on the sides. And it's like, back then, I— you don't even know. I used to bind my feet. I found out like Cambodian women would like bind their feet. In middle school, I was binding my feet with tape so that my shoes wouldn't slouch. So my Air Forces would stay crispy on the side. Because if I had a little slouch on the edge of my Air Forces, somebody would see it and it'd be the end of the world.

So you were binding for width. Those gals were binding for length generally.

Yeah.

Okay.

I think they're binding all around. They're trying to have the teeniest tights.

Yeah. Oh, they had— you've seen those x-rays. It's, it's a hoof.

All it did was fuck my feet.

Oh, of course.

I had, what's it called? Ingrown toenails and shit.

Oh, okay.

I don't have no arch.

All right.

Actually, I'm realizing that's probably why heels hurt so bad now. I fucked my shit up.

No, I think they hurt everybody. They do.

No matter what. Trying to not But middle school was, I think, the worst. You know, in Detroit, Black people, we have what's called the Detroit proper. So if you talk to my cousins, it's like, well, how y'all doing today? How's everybody doing? God bless you. Amen. Amen. But in Houston, everyone's very country. And if you don't talk very country and you talk proper, you talk white. So I was getting the white girl. I liked anime. I wasn't wearing my hair like the other girls.

You got Cambodian feet.

I had Cambodian-bound feet.

And you talking about— Cambodian feet.

Oh my goodness. My interests were just different.

Japanese interests.

Yes. And this was before liking anime was cool. 'Cause now liking anime is just so standard. Yeah. Thank you, Pharrell. Pharrell made it cool. But like before that, it was like, why do you like that weird stuff? I didn't conform. I didn't shave my legs because my mom and my sister, they don't shave their legs. So I didn't learn how to shave my legs. And I still to this day don't really need to shave my legs. But the girls were like, your legs are hairy. Why don't you shave your legs? You're weird. And I'm like, why are y'all just finding anything to say So most of my bullying was middle school. That was the brunt of it. But it was also the height of my delusion. So I didn't really notice because I was in a fantasy world.

Yes, me too.

Like, I couldn't find my clothes after gym one day, and I was like, hmm, my clothes just disappeared. No, girl, they took your clothes and threw it on top of the locker so you wouldn't find it. So you'd be walking around in your gym clothes all day.

Okay. So you were saved by your obliviousness sometimes.

Oblivious.

That's the word. 'Cause I'm oblivious to this day. I can't pick up on certain signals. I'll be like, wow, how did that get past me?

That can be a blessing.

Yeah, it might be.

It can save you a lot of pain.

It might be learned. It might not be something you just are. Your brain might be protecting you.

Yeah, you might also call it disassociation these days. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare. We are supported by Allstate. Checking Allstate first could save you hundreds on car insurance. Not checking whether someone is actually waving at you before waving back You saw the wave, you went big, and then they walked right past you to greet the person behind you. Oh.

Yeah.

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I would raise my hand in class, and I raised my hand a lot, to the point where, like, the teacher would ignore me. I was the only one raising my hand. And I remember at one point when I would raise my hand in class, they would go, damn! And everyone would start laughing. I was like, oh, they're laughing with me. Like, I didn't think anyone was making fun of me. I kept raising my hand. So I did have a little bit of obliviousness with the teasing, but when I look back on it, I was like, oh, no, they was really coming for me. On the other end of the spectrum, there was the very obvious, like, somebody called me fat ass every day. You know, it was like, what's up, fat ass? I had teachers who would say, kind of made fun of me too, 'cause I had really sweaty hair, y'all.

Well, Houston's a beat down with humidity. Yeah, it's hot as hell.

And I would sometimes have to walk to school in humidity 'cause I wasn't far. My brother and sister, my sister has very, very long curly, mind you, this is a weave, but really long curly Alicia Keys-like hair, right? So she would always just wake up, wet her hair and scrunch it in some mousse. My brother, very same. So he would just scrunch it with some mousse. I'm the last baby. So they would tell me to scrunch my hair with some mousse. It did not look like that. My hair's way more coarse, way more fine, way more kinky. I got like an actual afro. So I would wake up in the morning, wet my hair, and scrunch it with some mousse, and look a hot-ass mess.

Oh, no!

And I would put my hair in these little uncombed, wet-ass ponytails. And I would go to school and be like, this is so embarrassing, and I'm putting myself all the way out there. It was not matted.

Okay.

But it would mildew.

Okay, sure.

Because I would sweat in my head.

Yeah.

And it was humid at school.

Yeah.

my hair was wet all day in the bun.

Oh no, it was in a bun. Was it so itchy?

It wasn't itchy, but it was just a wet-ass, mildewy-ass bun.

It was a WAB, wet-ass bun.

Yeah, bro, you got that from the top, make it dry. Anyway, but I had to like learn real quick in middle school, like, my hair is not like my brother and sister's, my hair's not like my mother and father's. My mom had really long hair touching her butt. My dad had a ponytail, Rico Suave.

Oh, he did?

I'm the only one with an afro. So I'm like, I have to learn how to jazz it up. And I did. I got my first weave the last day of 8th grade. And I remember I was walking through, and it was the last day of middle school, 'cause we were going all to high school. And they were like, Melissa! Melissa! Like, everybody was gagged. I remember I had this little chocolate brown weave that I glued in myself, and my mom helped me glue it in, and flipped out the ends like this. I had the little Farrah Fawcett, and I was like, yeah. Yes. And it was very Sandy in Grease. Like, what's up? And they were like, wow, she's actually pretty. Wow, she actually looks nice when she does her hair. And so I took that energy and went from Melissa to Lizzo.

And so it was a big reset for high school. You were shaving your legs, you had your hair right.

Yes. Shaving my legs for no reason, by the way, just to fit in.

No hair, just to fit in.

And we stopped binding our feet in high school.

We stopped binding our feet. We started getting Wider shoes. I think I switched from Air Forces to— what's the one, the strap, the Reebok Adidas? No, no, no. What's the one that—

Filas.

Oh, Filas.

I remember wearing Filas.

Oh, yes. Okay.

'Cause they had a little rounder situation. I was like, yeah, I'm in the Filas. Like, y'all don't know nothing about this. Y'all don't know nothing about this. I love hugs.

Yeah, you were, you were bringing it back to Run-DMC.

Exactly.

That's what they wore. Filas.

Is that what they wore? I thought it was my Adidas.

They did have my—

Yeah, see, you're wrong. Look at you. Look at you.

No, hold on.

Uh-oh.

I wanna say they switched to Filas. Anyways, in the fact that—

We'll do that for the fact that.

Yeah, we'll do it for the fact that. Okay, so you start playing the flute at 10 years old.

Yeah, 5th grade.

5th grade. And you play all the way through to—

College.

You go to college. But even before that, at 14, you formed the Cornrow Clique.

Cornrow Clique.

How many of you?

3? There was 4 of us.

Okay. And you were rapping?

I was rapping.

So flute and rap happening simultaneously.

Flute first, rap second.

And then you went to University of Houston.

Go Cougs.

To major in?

Music performance and flute.

Okay. And you did what, 3 years there?

I did about 1 and a half years before I chickened out.

It didn't correlate with your father dying?

Um, hmm.

Yes, they were very close together though. Yeah, no, it was same time.

Okay.

Same time.

Yeah.

That would explain that for me. But it was like I dropped out and then he passed around the same time. It was like a year before he passed, I dropped out.

And what— can I ask why he died?

That's a great question. I don't know.

How old was he?

I think he was like 53.

Yeah, way too young.

He was a baby. Like, when I think about it now, I'm like, oh my God.

Oh yeah, that's in 5 seconds.

He had had strokes.

Hypertension.

Yeah, he had hypertension. He had congestive heart failure, but like was always trying to like manage that. And honestly, he was like doing better and I was actually shocked.

So it was quite sudden. You didn't have any sense that was coming.

No.

And were you guys close?

Mm-hmm. I would consider myself a daddy's girl.

You dedicated the book to him.

I did. He told me that I was gonna be a great flute player before I even thought I would be a great— He was, like, super into the flute. And mind you, this is somebody who was very strict on his kids 'cause he wanted us all to be very successful. My brother, he was like, you have to do football. My brother's like 6'5, like, in high school. And he was like, no, you're gonna play football. And my sister, he's like, you're gonna do this. And they kind of rebelled. My sister and my brother wanted to do more arts. My brother, he can draw. He's, like, super talented. And my sister is extremely talented in music and arts, and they wanted to do that. And I wanted to do this flute thing, which is music and arts. And I was like, sure, he wasn't gonna fuck with it. But he was like, no, this is great. Do this, do this, do this.

And am I wrong? Real quick, I can name, like, 7 great jazz saxophone players. I can probably name, like, 8 great trumpet players, even clarinet. I can't think of a real famous flutist, right?

And, you know, Black people, we don't say, oh, Chris Martin, we say Coldplay. So he would always say, you gotta be like Jethro Tull.

Okay.

But I didn't realize— I thought his name was Jethro Tull.

It's just a band. Yeah, that's common though.

His name is Ian Anderson.

Uh-huh.

But my dad would always be like, you gonna be like Jethro Tull. So yeah, I think that was a big part of it 'cause, A, there was a huge gap for what I provided.

Oh, I just realized why you're saying Jethro Tull. A heavy flute in Jethro Tull.

Yeah, the Ian Anderson.

He's the flute player.

Yeah. And my dad would be like, you gonna be like Jethro Tull. I did not— I thought that was a Black man 'cause Jethro—

Yeah, especially down in Houston.

So I said, oh, Jethro. I'm gonna be like Jethro and them. Like, so I would always say that. I just got a book of Ian Anderson flute solos, and I'm like, oh, that's his name. It's crazy. But like, that was our only kind of contemporary flute person at the start that we knew of, because everything else— there was the classical side that I was super into. Like, Sir James Galway is my hero. So there was that side. But you think about Yo-Yo Ma, besides Sir James, where is the Yo-Yo Ma of flute now? Where you're going on late-night shows and shit.

Yeah.

Yeah. I can't think of a super famous flutist. Is it flutist? Flutist?

Flutist? Yo, my whole life, I grew up, it was flutist.

Yeah.

Literally, recently, I'm telling you, right after college, it was like, it's actually flutist. I think that's a Mandela effect. I think it switched from flutist to flutist.

Yeah.

Because I remember us being like, no, no, no, it's flutist. Correcting people. And now it's flutist.

Okay. Tomato, tomato, flutist, flutist.

Hello.

Hello. Flutist sounds better. It sounds more fancy.

I'm gonna say I'm a flutist.

Like flaunting too. It like shares some DNA with flaunting.

There's a little magic.

But if I'm around, if I was in a group of flute players, I would say flutist. 'Cause I would be afraid to be looked down upon.

Sure. Okay. Well, they need to look up to you.

But yes, but then talking to the layperson, you might say flutist.

Yeah. Amongst A muggle. us. Yeah.

A muggle.

Yeah.

A muggle.

Like a non-music reading individual.

Yeah. Well, that Harry Potter punched through everything, didn't it?

God, it got me.

They got everyone, didn't it?

It's universal.

What happened? Oh, just my reference?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Everyone gets it immediately.

I think if you're y'all's age, you love Harry Potter. It had no borders.

Someone asked me recently, why do you like Harry Potter so much? But it was such a young person asking a millennial. And I was like, oh my God, this is like a moniker of what our generation—

What was your answer? Because it's to me quite obvious.

Oh, he did ask me because we went to the Harry Potter at Universal Studios. We were eating the Harry Potter food. And I was like, well, because I read the books. And I was like, and I was present when the movies were coming out. And it was like a really big deal. And he was like, so when did the books come out? And he was looking up the year.

And I was like, don't look up the year because he wasn't even born yet.

I was like, don't look at that.

Or as my kids say, the 1900s.

No, literally. I was like, no, it was like 2005. Like, that's when the last book—

Yeah.

I was in line for the last book.

I was also in line. At the Barnes Noble? Yes. Or like sometimes you preorder them, but you have to get in line. But I think part of it is because our generation, we were their age.

Yes.

Give or take a couple years, but the main characters were our age.

So we were growing up with them. Growing up with them.

Yeah.

Well, y'all, the reason it was so successful is the same reason that you love Good Will Hunting.

thing.

Any story about someone who's normal and average and finds out they're incredibly special is the most wish-fulfilling story.

Not even normal. They're downtrodden, right? It's like worse than—

Yeah, he's getting shit on by that terrible family he lives with. And then you find out, no, I am special. I kind of had a hunch I was special. And we all feel that way. We all think like, I think I'm special. Why doesn't anyone see it? So this book is Someone seeing how special you are and then getting to go with the other special folks. And we also want to find our tribe. So it's like, it's also—

I feel like every story has that. It's a Cinderella story.

But I don't think, you know, I think you could go, it's the magic, but that's just the fun stuff. But the real human stuff is like, hey, I'm really special. Why doesn't anyone see that?

Like, if you want a successful children's story, start with child who doesn't feel special. give them purpose, make them feel special.

Make you a flute.

And then add your own magic to it. I think that's the true story of childhood and growing up.

Yeah.

And by the way, we all deserve to feel special and be seen as special, but it doesn't happen.

And the more relatable your hero is, the more you can see yourself in it. And that's why I wrote Lil Lizzo, Me Sasha B Fluting.

Yes. Even the kids we thought didn't feel that way felt that way.

Yeah.

You know, even the kids that were in the cool clique, there were 4 kids cooler than them, and they couldn't figure out why it was, you know? It's kind of a universal human— we all just think everyone knows what's going on, feels like they've got it figured out, but no one does.

Those kids, like the cool kids who are fortunate to be cool and feel special at that age, I think eventually though, they have to learn how to find their special that's not external validation. And, oh, 'cause you're so hot, or 'cause you're just so effortlessly cool, or you're just the guy. They have to figure that out. out later in life. I was a nerd, so I didn't have that as a reverse, but—

Yeah, I think that can be harder in some ways when you've lived a whole life with other people telling you something, and then you're like, who am I?

Yes.

Okay, so back to college. Was there a specific thing that had you leave?

Yeah, pressure. College was wild. When you are a music major, you gotta wake up at the ass crack of dawn, and you're actually extremely independent. You wake up at the ass crack of dawn, you all have like a big recital that you have to complete, midterm, and at the end of the year. And so every day you have to log hours in the rehearsal room, which is this scary little room by yourself. 'Cause there's all these rehearsal rooms, but they're pretty thick because—

They're like phone booths.

Yeah. 'Cause you don't wanna bleed the sound. Everyone's rehearsing. So I'm in this room in this old-ass building, which I know was haunted. I hate iso booths now when I record music. Like I don't go into the booth. Like I record in the control room with everyone else with the microphone.

You got like PTSD?

Yeah. Because when I go in those little rooms, I'm like, ah. So anyway, I'm just realizing that's what that's from.

You weren't even pumped about the size of this room.

Too small.

You commented.

I'm cool with it.

You like a big space.

No, she said the church was this size.

Yeah.

She likes that. Okay.

Okay.

Okay. It wasn't a pejorative.

It's not the size.

He's in it.

It's what you guys have done with it. And I think you've done a great job. The hidden cameras are a nice touch.

Yeah.

Meta ain't got nothing on y'all. Yes. Anyways, you're waking up, you're hitting the marching band field at like 7 in the morning. It's one band, one sound. Then you break and then you have to go and you gotta find a practice room, you gotta log hours, you gotta rehearse, rehearse, rehearse. Then you have to go to, like, regular fucking school. And that's the part that really pissed me off because I felt like I was in fame. And I was like, I'm waking up and I'm doing music. This is the thing. I'm an independent woman. And then you have to, like, go to math and English. And I'm like, why the fuck am I doing this again?

Yeah.

I did this for 18 years.

You needed to go to a conservatory.

Yeah. That was the plan. After U of H, I was gonna go to the Paris Conservatory 'cause that's all I wanted to do. And I was kind of getting exhausted of that because then it was like, of course, the conservatoire was great. But then I'm also a jazzy Black girl with friends who I went to college with, close friends. And so there was parties and I was rapping with them and I was in a rap crew, the nightlife, and then waking up at 7 in the morning. And it was like wanting to be in a sorority and then waking up at 7 in the morning. I felt like I was getting pulled and I was really, really stressed out about it. It was really stressful to me. That was like one of the hardest times in my life. I feel like I just kind of gave up.

And then, so you had the shame of quitting probably, right?

Do you have regrets about that? No.

Good.

Well, it worked out.

It worked out.

But I bet for a year it didn't feel like—

For a few years.

I just, yeah, gave away my one shot at making a living at this.

Yes. For a few years. Because if I had had any other kind of degree, if I was pursuing like a doctor or nursing or teaching, maybe to this day I'd have regrets. 'Cause I'm like, it'd be nice to have that. But I was pursuing music performance and flute and now I'm performing music and flute. So I really honestly think I deserve my doctorate. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They should have honored it.

You give the speech, they'll give it to you.

I played with the National Symphony Orchestra last month. Yeah.

Have they not invited you to give a commencement speech?

I would love to do that.

University of Houston, get your shit together.

Yeah.

Uh, duh. Get her down there.

Ruck Feist, honorary doctorate.

Give her a doctorate degree. Okay. Why Minneapolis? Like, if I'm you and I'm thinking about moving somewhere to pursue music, I guess I'm probably thinking LA, New York, Atlanta. New York.

Hello.

Outside of Prince, Why are we going to Minneapolis?

Which I wasn't even aware of. I didn't know he lived there. It's a really funny story. I was on the indie side of things, so I wasn't on the industry. Like, if I wanted to be an industry girl, maybe I would have moved to New York or LA, but I was in a rock band at that time. And I had been going back and forth with this producer via Zoom, and I was, like, writing with him, and he lived in Denver. And I was still in this rock band. And I was like, Man, working with this guy's pretty cool. And he was like, hey, I'm gonna move to Minneapolis. And he was like, you wanna come with me and be in my band? I was like, Minneapolis? I didn't really think anything of Minneapolis back then as far as like music, 'cause I was in my own Houston bubble. I went to South by Southwest that year, which is a music festival in Austin, Texas. And every fucking person I met was from Minneapolis.

Oh, really?

Every band that performed, every rapper, I was like, where are you from? And they're like, Minneapolis. And I would like link up with them and we'd run around and party and have like the best time in the world. were like boofing vodka up their ass and like—

Oh wow.

Eating molly off the floor. Like, it was just crazy time. I was like sleeping in my car and then they all like slept in the car with me cuz that was the only place. We didn't have a hotel room. I was like, these people are fun. And I was like, you know what, I will move to Minneapolis cuz I had already made a bunch of friends at this festival. And I was like, I'll just link up with them when I get to the Twin Cities. And I did. And I still had my hesitation. And then I played a show there and it was like our first show. Oh my God, the Varsity Club. We played the Varsity Club. Anyone who knows Minneapolis knows. And I remember I performed, and afterwards someone came up to me. It was a girl. And I remember she was like, do you live here? And I was like, no. And she was like, you need to live here. We need someone like you.

Oh, wow.

And I was like, easy.

Okay.

And I was like, you don't gotta tell me twice. I was like, wow. I felt so appreciated and loved in that community. But yeah, no, they love on their artists. They love on their local artists. They have a lot such a rich local music scene, especially when I was there. I felt like there was something in the lake water, man. There was Rhymesayers, so there was Atmosphere and Doomtree, and you could sell out every venue in the city with just local acts all in one night. And we would, like, bike and run over to the different venues. I don't know what it is about the Twin Cities, but it's not just the music scene, it's the restaurant culture too. The mom-and-pop shops, the family-owned restaurants, there's so much love and support in that way.

It's kinder. It seems like it's kinder than some of these other big cities.

Yeah.

And it's got like a Portland kind of feel where, like, they really just give into community. I think it's super, super community-based. There's nothing like it.

So you got big there.

Yes.

You got big. Like, you had songs that—

I was so confused by that.

That were big there, and they wrote about you there.

Yeah.

And you kind of were a queen there. I feel like that's a great place to learn how to do all this.

I felt very appreciated. I also feel like I was an anomaly because I was this Black girl raised in COGIC Church who could freestyle rap like a Houstonian or like Mike Jones. And I was up in the Twin Cities, just this anomaly of a person. But I could also jam in rock bands, and I played the flute. And they were just like, who the fuck are you? Like, you're so weird. And I was in, like, 12 bands. You know, I played flute with my friend who was a rapper. I was in this noise band. I was in 2 girl groups. I was in an electropop band. I was in so many bands, y'all. And I would pop up on stage and collaborate with the other rappers. I was doing anything for free.

How did you end up recording with Prince?

I was on my second girl group. That was fun. Those were the days. But our group was featured in a documentary that was on NPR, The Current, and they were highlighting girl groups. And so it was us, and then we were And Prince also had a girl group, Third Eye Girl. And so we were all in this documentary. And then I remember we got a call from the radio station. It was just like, hey, somebody wants to work with you. We were like, who? The rest was history.

Wait, so Prince is using the radio station to book his stuff?

That's how he found us.

Uh-oh.

By the way, The Current is an incredible station. It's the NPR station there and just beloved. When you heard your song on The Current for the first time, it was a big deal. Like, we would pull and we were all in the car together, and the first time they played our song, we turned the volume up and we were like screaming.

It's like being on Morning Becomes Eclectic back in the day.

What is that?

That was the LA NPR Morning Becomes Eclectic. The Garden State soundtrack was the current running soundtrack of Morning Becomes Eclectic when that movie came out. And the guy who would curate all those songs has now done a lot of music supervision in shows and movies because he has impeccable taste. And it was where you would go discover the coolest new bands that would become these huge bands. So I'm, I'm excited. I'm imagining it's the same thing as the current.

Wait.

You're knowing it now?

Hold on. You're Garden State? Am I tripping?

No, but people think I am.

I literally, I literally almost passed out.

Wait, this is— No, my doppelganger is Zach Braff.

Zach Braff is—

I am not Zach Braff.

I was sitting, my brain was spinning.

Yeah. You started getting scared. Like, fuck, I got the wrong guy.

Podcast have I been on?

This is great.

No, this is great.

This happens all the—

like he gets asked to take pictures all the time as me and vice versa. And we just do it.

And y'all's names have this exact—

Zach, Dax. Yeah.

Yeah.

White boys with big noses.

Rad ass names. That just, you really fucked me up. Don't do that again. You zapped out.

Yeah.

Don't do that again.

Anyways, have you seen Scrubs? Let's change subjects. Have you seen Scrubs? Look at that. She's really fucking confused. That Zach Brown.

Okay.

I'm Parenthood and Without a Paddle. No, I know you are, but I, for a second I thought I didn't.

I said, I understand. Oh shit.

That was confusing.

No, you fucked me over intentionally. All right. Rewind.

No, you did a great job.

You asked, you didn't say like, oh yeah, I love your movie Guardians.

Oh yeah, I don't, I can't cap in my rap. Yeah. But if you rewatch this tape, you will see.

No, the look on your face was very genuine. You got really scared about time-space. You were like, where am I in the universe right now? I genuinely broke down.

Holy shit.

Okay.

That's really cool.

Anyways, we're back though, Scrubs. I don't know. Check it out. It's a new season. Yeah, we brought it back. Anywho.

Stop.

Okay. 2013, first solo album, Lizzo Bangers. This is the one that got really big in Minneapolis in particular, right?

Yes. I was able to sell out First Avenue. And the song Batches and Cookies, that one was getting played on, like, BBC Radio.

This whole Minneapolis chapter is really fucking cool, 'cause I don't know if you went to New York if you would've gotten all this encouragement and, like, started fortifying your confidence, or if you'd gone to LA, if you'd gone to Atlanta. Like, I think there's a special accident that happened that you go to South By, you end up there, and then you're loved there.

Yeah.

And you kind of learn to be loved. You gotta learn to be loved, no?

Yeah. You do have to learn to be loved. And I also feel like I never felt like I really belonged anywhere. fully as an artist. Because when I was in my rap crews, I was still writing pop music, and then I also was listening to rock. And then when I was in my rock band, I still wanted to shake ass and freestyle rap. And then gospel music don't let you do none of that.

Yeah.

And flute really don't let you do none of that.

Yeah.

And then I got to Minneapolis, and for some odd reason, all of it was okay.

Prince is the fingerprint of the City. And Prince is doing crazy guitar solos on an R&B song. Yeah, in the '80s, he's going to a Bob Seger concert and going, why is that guy in arenas? Oh, he does ballads. I'm gonna do ballads. He's a neat, you know, amalgam of all these things. And so I think the vibe is like very embracing of something that's a little left of center or avant-garde. So it's like a beautiful place.

Yes.

For you to learn to do this.

Like, weird was okay.

Yeah, yeah, right, right.

And I was like, oh my God, it's okay to be weird. I would say that all the I just feel like Minneapolis, the people there are so supportive of Black people. I just felt loved and appreciated for who I was, and I wasn't called white girl. I was actually the Blackest person in the room at that time. They're like, ooh, you kinda country. Like, me?

Yeah.

Miss White Girl?

I'm country? I'm hood? Oh, wow. That's a first for me. That's a first for Elmo. So— but yeah, no, I loved my time. It was magical.

At that time when you were kind of a big thing in Minneapolis, did you ever think like, yeah, this is good, like this would be enough?

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Oh my God.

Like you made it.

Making it? I hate to be that person who's like, yeah, no, not actually making it. I hate those people. But I have to be very clear about when you're a big deal in Minneapolis, it's not cloudy or fame-like. Like, literally, it's like, oh, I could play this show and I can pay my bills really well. I can tour and make money, and I can give money to my mom. I can help my people out. And if my people need to come stay with me, they can come stay with me. And I can eat wherever I want in the nicest restaurants in Minneapolis.

No, that's it. Boom.

I can fly wherever I want on a nice flight, nice Virgin first class sometimes. It was really that.

Did you have a nice Do you care about cars?

Hold on. Give me a second. I did not drive for a long time.

Snowy roads.

How the fuck did I get around?

Yeah.

Yeah. How the fuck did I get around in Minneapolis?

Did they have buses or a train?

I deadass can't believe I'm sitting back and realizing I don't know how I got around because I stopped driving because I had a little—

Little DUI sitch.

My license— it was not DUI.

Okay. Sorry. That's a very common reason to lose your license.

Forgive me.

No, I've never— no DUI, nothing. But, you know, Houston HPD, they like to fuck with me. And my license was basically hot for like a decade. My license got unhot when I moved to LA finally. I said, can we figure this out?

You're like, let me hire a lawyer to figure this out.

Yo!

So, I go to the DMV. I'm scared to go to the DMV. I don't know if that's an experience for y'all, but I have a fear that if I go to the DMV, I'm going to get arrested and put into prison, 'cause I know that can happen to people. That's how you get got. Or they'll be like, hey, everything's fine. You mind just stepping out of the vehicle for a second? Everything's fine.

Everything's fine.

Yeah. Yeah. Fucking—

Yeah.

So anyway, shit was hot for a while. So boom, right? I'm like, okay, finally have enough money to pay off whatever this weird thing is, why I can't get my license, what's holding my license up. I pay it off. My shit's still hot. I was like, chest out, about to finally get a license. I walk up to that bitch, she's like, oh no, sorry, you can't get one. Mind you, I'm scared. I'm like, I'm thinking the cops about to fly out.

US Marshals.

They're like, no, you just can't get one. So there were 2 Melissa Jeffersons.

Oh, okay.

2 driver's licenses out there with my face and my name, and they both had a record. Oh my God.

So somebody got your ID and started having a good time on the highway.

I, to this day, don't know what happened.

Guess what? It's him.

It was you.

It was you, huh? I lost my license 3 times.

I had to do something.

Oh my God. Imagine the gag. She's sitting there like, Zach Brown? But so I finally paid that one off and now I can drive. So I did not have a car. I did not drive in Minneapolis. I rode in the back of people's cars. You know what, Minneapolis? I love you so much. I rode in the backseat of people's cars. I slept on people's couches. I slept on people's floors and futons and guest rooms. I ate meals that y'all cooked. I ate free poutine for playing shows, drank free beer for playing shows. That city really did take care of me.

Pabst Blue Ribbon.

PBR.

Huge in the North.

PBR.

That's right.

I think it's just big.

Yeah. When you're driving, I've driven a motorcycle across the northern part of the country. And when you're going through Wisconsin, people can have a bar in their house. Like the liquor license is very weird. And everyone has a Pabst Blue Ribbon sign hanging off their porch.

Yeah.

They love that shit.

And in Minnesota we get a bit of that too.

You do get a little bit of PBR up.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then there's Tecate down south. Tecate, Lone Star, beer.

Right?

Beer.

I think beer's like a lost— I don't think people fucking with beer no more.

It's out there still. They're going to breweries and stuff. I was just there.

You was at a brewery? I was about to say something wrong with people who go to breweries, but I don't want to judge. I don't mean to judge, but you don't need to judge. It's like, why do you want to taste nasty after nasty?

But I agree, I don't like beer, but my friends still like it who are there.

Like carbonated piss.

It doesn't taste good.

We're having our first dust-up because you're wrong. Beer's delicious. It's been with us for millennia.

He does have a beer company.

I don't give a shit. Like, I'm like, nasty things have been around for a long time.

That feels— That's a fair—

I don't know if that's a good con.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

I'm sorry. But beer's delicious is a crazy statement.

Okay.

Beer's never been delicious. The only time beer's delicious is a crispity fucking crunchity Blue Moon with orange juice. Oh, I do like Blue Moon.

I do like Blue Moon.

Okay. So I guess you do like it.

With orange juice. Mm-hmm. Okay. You gotta sweeten it up a little bit.

Orange slice will suffice.

I will squeeze the orange peel and then dump the slice.

But you don't actually need Tropicana dumped in there. You just want the orange slice.

I need that orange flavor.

You want a little citrus pop?

I can do that. I could do a little citrus pop, a little sweetness.

Sure, sure, sure.

A little sweetness. They call it a Colorado mimosa.

Oh, that's what it is.

Okay.

Nice.

And you'll fuck with that?

I'll fuck with that.

Yeah. Okay, good. I wanna talk about something important.

Okay. Okay. Come on.

So in 2014, in the wake of Lizzo Bangers, which was like very well reviewed and you're kind of really getting some traction and some momentum, you do this interview for StyleLikeU's What's Yes.

Yeah.

And in this interview, while talking about your body, you start taking your clothes off, which then leads to My Skin. And I do wonder, when you look back on your life, don't you think that some of these decisions that kind of came out of nowhere literally put you on a trajectory? And then you wonder like, wow, if I hadn't done that magazine, maybe I end up there, but how much longer or how much later would that have been?

I have a very auspicious life. I think Tauruses do though. I think we are like the Forrest Gump of the zodiac.

Okay.

But like, I think about all these things 'cause I just taught a self-love class on Twitch, and somebody asked me, how did you learn all this shit about self-love? And I was like, my heart was broken in a million pieces, and I just started desperately clinging to books and crystals and candles and prayer. And then I discovered self-love in my desperation to love people without conditions. And then I started writing all these songs about self-love, and now I'm the self-love guru, and now I'm teaching this self-love class on Twitch. It was like this weird, full circle thing where, like, when I go back to 2016 clutching a fucking rose quartz and a black tourmaline in my apartment that's about as big as this space— I love using this space as a— Yeah.

As a reference point. As a reference point.

I would have never imagined the life that I have now, or needing that moment to have the life that I have now. It felt so in passing or not important. Just like the Style Like U, when I got that interview, I didn't even realize I was underprepared for the interview because I didn't know what it was. That's when I was just doing press, and I was just doing shit.

I was like, all right, whatever.

Yeah, whatever. I was rolling up hungover to things, not in like a dark kind of way, but I would party a lot. And I'll be like, what are we doing today? What are we talking about today? And they're like, you know, you have to remove articles of clothing. I was like, I don't have that many pieces of clothing on me.

That's part of the interview? Okay.

Yeah. I took off my wig. Yeah. It's part of the interview.

Oh.

So it's called What's Underneath. So you're slowly taking things off as they ask you questions. So a lot of people come with layers on.

Oh.

Yeah.

Because they're—

The people that know where they're going come in layers.

Not me.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. I'm over there. I literally had to take my wig off because I had nothing else to take off.

I'm boring you with these Anderson .Paak stories, but another Anderson .Paak thing that's crazy is he thought of the idea of, I wanna play Tiny Desk.

You wanna fuck Anderson .Paak, don't you?

So bad.

He really does.

Dude, I think he is Prince. I think he's our Prince.

No, he's fire. He is unbelievable.

Unreal. That smile.

Oh, I know. A million watts.

It's intoxicating. He can't not smile. He said he can't get his teeth in his mouth. Really? He is a permanent smile.

What a blessing. I know, right?

Because, you know, you can trick yourself into being happy.

Yes. And he's done it. But he had the idea of, I want to do Tiny Deaths. And then he got fucked up and he woke up in New York and he's hungover and he doesn't want to go. He tries to get out of it and they basically force him to do it. And as you know, that's the biggest Tiny Deaths ever. And that defined him. People are like, oh, he plays the drums and sings. Crazy. So, yeah, it's that weird thing where it's like you almost missed it.

My Tiny Desk is also very underrated.

Okay. So anyone listening, just go check that out.

Go check my Tiny Desk. University of Houston, get her to do the commencement speech. Uh, go watch Tiny Desk. Uh, watch Scrubs, new season out now.

There's a new season? For real?

Yeah.

For real. They relaunched it and it's actually really good.

Oh, okay.

It's very good. Yeah.

Why isn't Big Girl, Small World on Spotify or Apple?

Damn.

I was trying to listen to that today and I couldn't find it.

Every time I get on live, somebody go, I want to listen to Humanize. I want to listen to Humanize. Humanize is a music video that's online that's from that album. So you can listen to that. It's very Björk. Well, me trying to be Björk. If you want to know the unsexy answer—

Yeah.

Oh my God, this is— I'm— who fucking cares? It's over now. I already won the Grammys. So to be eligible for the Grammys, I had to take down previous works.

Oh, why?

Oh, because, um, because Best New Artist, you could only have a certain amount.

Oh God, that's crazy.

Submissions or whatever, or not even submissions, but bodies of work out, because I never submitted for the Grammys before that, but bodies of work. And I had so many bodies of work out that they were counting them as albums, or I don't even know if it was albums, it was just like songs out in the world. So I had to take down a shit ton of songs to be eligible for Best New Artist.

If you then put 'em back up, they would take it back?

I didn't even win it. So, you know, I think Billie Eilish won actually, which much deserved, 'cause I had been out for like 1,000 years. But I say all that to say, I changed my the rules. Because now the Grammys came out and said, hey, now you can have X amount. It doesn't matter. You have to only have a certain amount of, like, well-known pieces to be eligible for Best New Artist. So that's why Apple gave me the Rule Breaker Award. Because that's not the only rule I broke. Songs that came out 3 years ago never went number 1 on the Billboard charts. Like, that just was unheard of.

I was telling Monica that. Good Good as Hell?

No, it was Truth Hurts.

Oh, Truth Hurts.

Good as Hell as well.

That had been out for a minute.

That came out in 2017.

And I said to Monica, can you imagine having Good as Hell? And for a couple years you're like, I don't know, why isn't this fucking song— and then it comes out on another album and all of a sudden it is fucking—

But mind you, 3 years later it was like top 10 Billboard. Truth Hurts, number 1 Billboard. Yeah.

What is that like to have those songs that you must feel in your soul are worthy of that later confirmed, but in the period before it's confirmed you going like, well, y'all, I don't know what else to do.

Well, here's the gag. Well, first off, one thing about me, I don't care if I flop or have the biggest song in the world. I'm a songwriter and a performer, so I'm always gonna be okay. There's more where that comes from. I'm like, I'll write one. I got something in me. And I do think that there's a sort of scarcity mindset with a lot of people because they're given And when you're not hot anymore and you flop, they won't give you the hot songs anymore.

So you're in trouble.

But because I'm a songwriter and all these songs I wrote myself, I know that all I have to do is keep going and being myself. You know? So back then when that happened, I wasn't thinking like, why isn't this number 1? Why isn't— I was like, on to the next. I was honestly, first off, I thought Where the Hell My Phone was gonna change my life. When I wrote Where the Hell My Phone, I was like, y'all, I'm scared.

Buckle up.

Y'all, Nicki Minaj.

You're like, everyone needs to get ahold of my ego. Okay. Everyone pay attention. Keep me in check.

I thought that I was about to be the hottest shit in the world. I said, we going to the big leagues. No, nothing happened to this day with that song. So, you know, Good as Hell, Truth Hurts, I loved them. I believed in them. I thought they were incredible, but I'd never known any greater success than they had hit. So I just kept moving forward.

And they were all step-ups anyways.

Yeah. Truth Hurts was devastating for a lot of reasons though. Truth Hurts was devastating cuz I was like, Yo, this song is actually really good. I love this video. And I felt like a lot of people went dark on me who was supposed to support me at that time. And it kind of broke me down. And I was like, oh, I quit music. And then they were like, hey, don't do that. And I was like, all right, I'm just gonna make music and just talk to my fans and not worry about nobody else. Not worry about no Grammys, no number ones, nothing bigger than what I got.

I think that's actually incredibly good advice for anyone that's artistic to hear. I had 2 different people that helped me. One time I had written a sketch while I was doing sketch comedy at the Groundlings, and then I saw almost the identical sketch on Saturday Night Live. And some of the folks that were at the show were writers on Saturday Night Live. And so I got all spun out. I'm living in a fucking one-bedroom apartment. I've not made any money.

About the size of this room.

It's a big deal to me. And I remember talking to someone kind of higher up than me at the Groundlings and saying, like, too tall to fuck. And this person said, if you think that's the only great sketch you're going to write, then you should go get a lawyer. If you think you are an endless well of great sketches, then keep it moving. And I heard that somehow. I don't know how. I'm pretty bullheaded, but I heard that. And yeah, I think it's just like, if you're an artist, just keep fucking—

Just keep going.

Be a volcano, man.

Yeah. And now you look at the biggest artists in the world are people who have been out for a long time, putting out music consistently for years and not getting the appreciation they deserve. And then all of a sudden, one day, just popping the fuck off.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, thank you to the internet. Thank you to TikTok. Thank you to the fans who, like, consistently So just keep fucking going. Use it. Oh my God, I use so much emotion. I use anger.

I can't wait to hear the song that comes out of this interview. I'm so excited.

Oh my God, all the anger. I thought he was Zach Braff. Dax, Zach, the tension between those Zachs.

The song should be called Zachs. Zachsaphone.

The Ax.

The Ax.

Dax and Zach.

The Ax.

It's a little on the nose.

It's, uh, it's a little clunky. It's just a more— it's more clunky.

There's no nose. There's no—

I'm not a songwriter. Okay. I can't do it.

You signed in '16 to Atlantic. Good as Hell comes out 2019. You're in Ugly Dolls and you're in Hustlers. Also, first movie you're in makes $160 million. It's crazy. It doesn't happen to anybody.

Wait, really?

Yeah.

It made $160 million.

Worldwide. That was a big movie.

You know, guys, I never really— I never really—

Paid attention. 'Cause it's not your thing. You weren't setting out to be an act— if your life was acting, you would damn well know it.

I didn't really appreciate that music shit either, bro.

Like, oh really?

I was performing at the AMAs and stuff and I was just kind of breezing through everything.

'Cause of this obliviousness or as a self-protection?

It might be a combination of both. I really didn't smell the roses a lot. I just started appreciating and smelling the roses lately. But for the most part, I'm like, I had all that going for me. I ain't even realize.

Do you feel like you missed it?

I did miss that because that particular part of my career is never gonna happen again. Right. The discovery and the rise. Yeah. That's never gonna happen again.

And it's scarier to be the person who's already famous and built in because there's one way to go. People wanna bring you down as opposed to cheer.

Oh, but I already had that too. You know, I survived that part.

Yeah.

It's Phoenix time. And then once you're Phoenix, you're good.

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah. You gotta, you gotta take, yeah. You take the big beatdown and then if you Phoenix it, then you're kind of impenetrable.

Oh, but I now feel like a mama bear for other artists. I see when they like start blowing up, I'm like, oh my gosh, it's coming.

Yeah.

Right. I hope they survive. I hope they make it.

Yeah. At the peak of that, once you start touring in 2022 with Special. You've hosted SNL now. It's like you're really at that peak, kind of. Everyone in the world is singing to you, dancing to you, watching you on TV.

Didn't even really realize that.

Bowing down to you, really. I mean, that's what was happening. You know, you became— I know, that's too much. You're not a god.

Uncomfy.

I want to know how you do on those tours that are really, really long. Of course, we watched the doc. Love the doc. Do you get lonely? Are there waves? Are you happy?

Then you're How do I describe this? Being on stage in front of 20,000 people who came to see you, who love you very intensely.

Who got babysitters to see you.

I know.

Who spent money they don't have to see you.

Oh my God.

Don't even get me started on that part. Like the sacrifice and—

Yeah. You know.

But the energy that they're giving you, imagine every person you love all in one room screaming, affirming you and—

Yeah.

I love you. It is the most incredible feeling. And then you're not up there doing something you don't like. I'm up there singing songs that make me feel good, and I love my music.

Yeah.

So we're doing this together, and it's this incredible high, and there's these lights. And then you go and you sit afterwards. There's a massive comedown, just chemically.

I think this is why so many performers are addicts, because the only way to sustain that moment on stage once you're alone back in your room is to get fucked up.

Yeah.

I'm not calling you an addict, but I'm saying I think that's why so many are addicts.

I mean, I probably had an addiction to food or something crazy.

Okay.

Yeah.

You're gonna have something you regulate with.

Yeah. And then I would just get very moody and like sad until it was time to get back on stage again. And then it was awesome. But I love touring. Like I love performing. And now I'm a way more balanced person. But touring for that long, you're kind of raggedy. Like I was pretty raggedy. it looks so glamorous being glittery and diamondy and made up and singing songs. It's just the wear and tear of travel. Anybody who goes on vacation knows that when you're done that vacation, even though you had a ball, you gotta recover, recuperate from the vacation.

Yeah.

'Cause travel is taxing on the human body. So you're in the planes, you in the trains, you in the automobiles, you in the buses. Time changes, you going faster than the human body should go way too often. Why I'm going this fast in a 4-hour flight? pressure fucking tube in the sky, and then you're in the next city, and then you're—

Ah!

Every fiber in your body you give to people. And back then, we was doing radio promo, 'cause I don't think they really do that post-COVID. I don't think meet and greets and all of that. But it's like radio station meet and greets. You got your real-life meet and greets of your fans who came to the show. You got your soundcheck parties. You have your press. You have your promo post-show. You gotta talk to the suits and the ties.

Yeah, you got sponsors.

So much interaction and energy and talking and connecting. I'm really good at that. I love that shit. But the human body only has so much. And so I'd be really tired, but I would feel like I'm not allowed to admit that I'm tired. I'm in a very privileged position.

Well, you feel you'll be ungrateful if you acknowledge that.

Yes.

Which is the great crime and sin of people who aren't eternally grateful if they've made it.

Yeah.

Which is not possible for a human to feel eternally grateful.

The human version of me is like, oh, I need a day off. You need a day off from your dream job?

Exactly. Wow.

That's crazy.

No one's gonna feel bad that you're tired on a world tour.

I didn't even feel bad for myself. I was like, bitch, get yourself together.

Yeah.

Right. Get up, girl. Get up. Yeah.

So after that height, there was a valley, and I'm not attempting to relitigate or get into any of the reasons for that. there's a valley, but I've certainly been in valleys, but I've never been on a mountain as high as yours before I was in the valley as low as that. And so what emotionally was happening there and how did you regulate during that period?

When you're going, going, going, going, going on a super high, and also I wasn't even really perceiving how famous I had gotten. I feel like a regular girl in the Twin Cities walking to the bar, gonna get some cheese curds and a beer. I still feel like that girl. But the whole world is like, everything I did was news. I had been going full throttle. It was like clothing line, it was like TV show, tour, album actually really doing well. Like, oh my God, I didn't even know how well the album was doing. I wasn't paying attention. I was just doing, you know, making my little TikToks. I had always planned to just like stop. My last show was in Japan on that tour. I'd never been to Japan. I've been waiting to go to Japan my whole life, you know, Sailor Moon.

Yeah.

And I was like, I'm about to spend some time here. And I wasn't going to tour. I was gonna take time to work on the next album. I had really planned to just, like, stop. But I also stopped while the world stopped fucking with me. And it was really weird because it was just like—

Yeah.

And I was like, whoa! This feels like my life is over. Yeah.

Okay, now, quick question here because we're about to go when I've had these things, some part of me goes, yep, I knew it. The shoe was gonna drop. It's too good to be true.

Yeah.

I didn't deserve it.

I've had that fear my whole life about everything. And I don't know why it's a common thing with people who are successful. We are always looking over our shoulder because I know with me personally, it started when we were in Detroit and then Detroit got taken away from my family, got taken away from me. Church got taken away from me. And then after that, my dad died when I was 19, taken away.

By the way, every time something kind of goods going.

Yeah. Something happened.

Right? Like you just found your shit in high school. You're in college.

It's taken away.

And all this. Yeah.

And so with the fame thing and the success and the public perception being super positive and being overly loved and people understanding me, I wasn't looking over my shoulder for a shoe to drop. 'Cause I really genuinely was moving so purely. I really, which they say you shouldn't do, just really showed the whole world my heart.

Uh-huh. Yeah. You let your guard down.

There was no guard ever.

You know?

Like, I came into this thing myself, and I was like, honored myself. And I was just bumbling around as myself, unabashedly. So when everybody started hating me, I kind of didn't understand. And I think anyone in this position, 'cause it happens to a lot of artists, like it happens to every artist, and especially now, you look up and it's like, uh-oh, now everyone hates them. What happened?

Yeah.

We never expect that's gonna happen to us.

Do you remember when there was a fight in high school and like you'd see a huge crowd of kids running to go watch the fight? Did that happen in Houston? That was like where I grew up, it was constantly. Like, you'd be at your locker, and all of a sudden, the big mob's going, oh, shit! Let's go! Someone's gonna get their ass kicked!

High five!

The internet to me is that. It's like the pile-on. You can see the big mob coming. You're like, oh, I gotta get a piece of this!

I had experienced little waves of it, but this time, after my tour ended, it was, like, legitimate. So I really did feel like my life was over because music had been my life, and I didn't feel like anyone wanted me to make music anymore. I only signed to a major label so I could help people. 'Cause I was cool with being an indie artist. But then I was like, but I'm making music that makes people feel better about themselves and seek love for themselves.

Especially girls, especially Black girls, especially big girls.

Yeah.

Folks that deserve a champion.

Gay boys.

Yeah.

Trans people. People who felt othered. So I was like, I'll sign to Atlantic because if that means y'all will get my music out to more people, I think of my music as medicine. So I was like, oh, wow. Should I cease to exist?

Right?

It was really heavy. It's really heavy. And I think you have to kind of go to a very, very, very, very low place to be able to kind of float back up to the top, I had to stop making everything external about me. Everything that was happening outside, I was like, that don't got nothing to do with me anymore.

Yeah. Right.

Like, who am I? Who's in my real life?

Who do I see day to day?

Let me tell you something. It was nobody for a while.

But can I ask this? Here's what I've been guilty of. At moments that we've had great success, that has been something I can look at lean on when I'm doing some other shit. Like, for me, it was I had a relapse, right? And it was like, this isn't good. We know this isn't good. We know that me using is not good. I'm not an idiot. But then I go, but man, this other thing's going so good. I'm just going to think about this. Like, I had something to lean on that was pretty powerful for me. And I think if in the wake of me also collapsing on that, and then also I don't even have the thing I had been We're at a very lonely, scary spot. Like, I don't even have the crutch now of success.

Oh my God. Yes. I know exactly what you mean. I can't even really articulate it, but I understand what you're saying.

Yeah. It's like just keeping myself above water because I know I have this thing that's really quite special and good. But by God, if you took that from me at that moment, I would— I don't know. Like, again, I don't know if I can exist at that moment because it's all I'm using to keep myself afloat.

You know, where I came to, it's like knowing who you are and not, like, what you do. And I feel like I had been identifying myself as what I do for so long instead of remembering who I am, because that's my job. And everyone in the world might not actually know me like I thought they did.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, wait, y'all actually don't know me.

There's almost something false. It's like realizing, oh, this thing I thought was real is actually not real. actually kind of false. In some ways, that's freeing, isn't it? A little bit?

It was extremely freeing.

Yeah.

Because I'm like, oh, only I know me. Only I know who I am. And I need to remember that and not allow someone to change that. Because I can do that too. I can allow someone to make me feel bad, even though I didn't— I used to get emotionally manipulated a lot. Actually, to this day, I kind of still— because I'm so, like, sweet and understanding and forgiving.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You get taken advantage of.

Oh my— Oh my God. Yes. I need protectors around me. And so now I feel like I have all these protective people.

And would I be right to guess you're not great at boundaries?

No.

Yeah.

But now I am.

Yeah.

Yeah. You know what's so crazy? It's like when you're a famous person, the more famous you become, the more boundaries you have, the more people look at you like you're a bad person. It's like, hey, that's fucked up. But I'm like, but I have to protect myself.

Yes, you do. You know?

I was always like, no, you have access to me. Everyone has access to me. I will never be that famous person that no one can talk to and no one can like, no, now I know why.

There's only, there's only so much of you.

Yes. Yeah.

You have to learn that.

And you have to save some for you.

Yeah. So I learned that as well.

Did you come to that on your own or did you have therapy? Did you have help?

I did have therapy. I've had the same therapist since like 2017.

That's kind of helpful. 'Cause she got to see the whole—

She saw the whole thing.

Oh yeah.

The whole enchilada.

I'm like, actually, we're like trauma bonded now because you've seen it all, sister. You're not going anywhere. But like, I had that. And honestly, I'm not gonna hold y'all. Like, I was talking out loud to myself and to God, but I would just be like, one day things have to be better. One day things have to be better. One day I'm gonna wake up in a reality where I don't feel like shit, where I am happy. And I was saying these things, and then one day after the next, you look up and you're like, oh, I don't have to say this anymore because I'm here.

Yeah.

It was a lot self-work and a lot of self-awareness you kind of have to have. It's like, hey, you know, you shouldn't do that, or you shouldn't give this person access to you in that way, or you shouldn't put yourself in that position, or, you know, you've been putting yourself in this fucked-up position for so long. You know that this person been kind of boxing you out and manipulating you, and you thought this was going on, but really this was going on. You need to watch the people around you. And this is the biggest thing that I learned from therapy is my inner child had been leading the show the whole time. My inner child who's like, I want everyone to get along.

Yeah.

And we're all gonna just naively accept And now grown-up me is protecting baby me. I'm like, no, stop. You can't. No, get back here. Get behind me.

Yeah. The girl with the bound feet and the fucked-up hair.

Yeah, please.

Yeah, the mold in the bun.

Okay.

The wab.

He's dragging me.

No, that little girl you gotta protect.

No, we gotta protect her.

I was like, girl, no.

Like, no, no, no, no, no.

Like, you can't trust these people. So, I am proud. I'm not done, though. I'm learning new shit.

We all are.

Oh, my God.

It's not over.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, wow.

Okay, so how do we end up writing Lil Mimi? Lil Lizzo meets Sasha B. Fluton. Can I kind of give you the description I wrote out of it?

Sure.

It's so adorable.

You wrote it?

Of course I did.

It's such a sweet book.

It is. It's about a little girl feeling lost and alone in a new school, sees a room full of instruments, gives them all a whirl, but none of them land. Then Sasha B. Fluton said, what about me? The two of you go on a ride, stopping in the jungle, the sea, and the sky. And every time you try to make the sounds of those places, nothing comes out. But when you and Sasha look into yourselves a sound finally comes out, and that is the sound that brings all the kids together. It's the sound that you make that lets you know you belong.

Oh my God.

Is that a good description?

Yes.

With the cutest little drawings.

Oh, I know.

And the cutest little imaginary worlds.

Oh, I just feel like this book makes me emotional every time I think about it. And I was like, I fucking wrote it. And I deadass wrote it. Like, no funny shit. I got video footage of me writing this motherfucking book, of me sketching Lil Lizzo to give to Mark Pett. Like, I'm really hands-on. in this book, but I get emotional every time I think about it because everyone's interpretation of it, and every person I sit with as they read it, or I read it to, it elicits a different response. I'm the same way with my music though. I could play a song for somebody, and a different person, different person, and it'll hit different every time. The way you surmised it with going to the space, and the sea, and the jungle, and like you tried to play those sounds, but those sounds were not you.

Yeah.

Oh my God! This is just tearing me up right now because it's true. I wanted it to have a Where the Wild Things Are kind of surrealism.

Yes.

Where, you know, the walls dematerialize, and suddenly he's, like, in a boat.

Well, again, you already told us, like, you lived in La La Land.

I did.

Yeah, with your tree.

You and your tree. The book is La La Land.

Yes, it is.

Exactly. And when I would walk into the band hall, it was like nothing outside of that room mattered. Only band kids understand the intense feeling of family in a band. It was so fucking important to us. The music that we were playing, the march that we had to do. Anything outside that room, we just drowned out 'cause we were so focused and we were so in tune with each other. And so when she walks in that room, she's like, well, what's all the fuss about? I wanna know. And she finds Sasha. Sasha called to her. The flute picked me when I was in 5th grade. There was something about the flute being difficult that I was, like, super, super drawn to. And I loved a challenge. I was, like, such an overachiever. just poindexter. So, when I was chosen, she was like, you. 'Cause it was just such a magical moment. I just— she looked down at me and smiled and was like, you. And I was like, yay! That was my Sasha being like, you gonna sleep on the flutes? You gonna sleep on the flutes?

Exactly.

And they chose each other. I do like drawing the parallels between my actual childhood experience with the flute because that's the reason why I wrote the book. I wanted to tell the story in a colorful way. I've been playing the flute— when did I first pull it out? At the BET Awards and twerked in front of people. Rihanna stood up, 2019 BET Awards, '18, '19. They've been asking me about Flute since then. We're about to be at about a decade of them being like, so why Flute? How Flute? And I was like, here, let me put it down for you.

Yeah.

Our friend Molly, when we were all at the height of our Lizzo obsession, Molly was obsessed with Sasha B, right? She talked about Sasha B all the time.

People have a connection to Sasha separately from you. And I think this book is gonna do that even more. because of her personification in the book.

It's like a little bonding. He's an outcast too. Yeah, yeah, I'm an outcast too.

I'm an outcast too.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

See me, you know?

It's beautiful. And Sasha's so funny and brassy, and, like, she's got her little hands on her hip and her little rainbow buttons and—

She's a fun girl.

Yeah. She's being played wrong the entire time.

The entire time.

And at the end, it's like, ah. And that's when you create the sound, and it's like breathing. And I wanted to throw a little bit of mindfulness in between breathwork in there at the end so that you can sit with your youngins and you can be like, okay, now sit and take a deep breath. When you get to that point and they take a deep breath, a deep breath makes anyone feel good. Sometimes when you say deep breath, it makes you want to take a deep breath. Or when you say yawn, it makes you want to yawn.

Okay.

The very last thing I want to talk to you about is I was watching the Gayle King interview and she wanted to talk to you about your use of the word bitch.

Oh yeah.

Look, I love Gayle King. We all love Gayle King. But she's like, you're going through, you know, we use it a lot. Okay. And then she said, you know, what about a little girl hearing that word? That was part of it, right? And I just want to say that one morning, probably 4 years ago, I think Lincoln was 9, our oldest daughter. She came into our bedroom. It was one of those days, right? She just did not want to go to school. She was just feeling defeated by everything. And she said, I can't do it. I didn't feel— and she was sad and all this stuff. And I said, come with me. And we went to our mirror. I've told the story on here before, but we went to the mirror and I said, I want you to repeat after me. Okay? And she goes, okay. She's 9. I go, I'm a bad bitch and I'm going to fuck this day up. And this little 9-year-old goes, I'm a bad bitch and I'm going to fuck this day up.

Yes.

And dude, her spirit changed like you can't imagine. On a dime. And then I told that story on here, and then all these kind of women in our life, it became a little anthem. I'm a bad bitch and I'm gonna fuck this day up. And then this was given to us.

Oh my God, look at the little baby face.

So I just want to thank you because our family anthem that gets us through our bad days is, I'm a bad bitch, I'm gonna fuck this day up. And that's because of you. Yeah.

Wow.

What?

'Cause my little girls, they got introduced to that word as a powerful word, as something that makes you feel like you can walk out on strong.

The way that I feel about that thing with profanity and children is I don't like to cuss around kids at all. I grew up in the church. I don't cuss around my mama to this day. And I'm a grown-ass woman, you know? So that's how my mind is. But I also feel like we live in a world where it is an inevitability that they're going to hear it. these words. Like, I was hearing cuss words when I was— and I was like, what is that? What is that?

First grade on the playground, you hear every horrendous word imaginable.

You're gonna hear it. So it's like better to disarm some of these words so that younger people cannot have the negative effect. Taking the power out of fat, taking the power out of bitch that someone can hurt you with, you know what I mean? And giving the power back to you. Exactly.

The way you neutralize them is they go bitch and you're like, fuck yeah. And they're like, oh, that didn't have the effect I wanted. That's not gonna hurt her. I wanted to hurt you and minimize you and reduce you.

Exactly. I was like, oh, what's up, fat ass? Yeah, my ass is fat.

Yeah, exactly. Like, okay.

And you wanna bite it.

Yeah.

Or else you wouldn't be talking about it. Yeah.

Right.

So much.

So, yes, I do think that inevitability and a part of my work is disarming words like that and toxic words like that. 'Cause I want people to be kinder to each other, but that's not realistic.

No, it's not gonna happen. That's not the world.

So we have to disarm That's right.

I love that.

No, it's just a judo move on it all.

Yeah.

Well, I've been wanting to do this for 5, 6 years. I'm so happy you're here.

You've been eluding us for so long.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We've been wanting you forever.

I hear that so much. I'm like, guys, I promise I'm down the street.

Well, now you got boundaries, so we got—

We caught you when your boundaries were down.

Like 5, 6 years ago, we probably would've been doing tequila shots.

Right? You have a conversation 5, 6 years ago.

Literally. Yeah. Maybe, maybe this is the timing was perfect for this. Yeah.

This is so funny. Are you guys— no, you drink beer.

No, I don't. I haven't drank in 22 years.

I'm so sorry. It's 'cause I thought that you had a beer company.

You just said Duels.

Oh, Duels. Okay. Okay.

I own O'Duells.

You own O'Duells? No, no, no.

Don't do that.

Brad owns O'Duells.

What?

I gotta hold this up. It's the cutest book ever.

Please.

Little Lizzo Meets Sasha B. Flutin'.

Out September 9th.

September 9th. You guys, it's a great, it's a great one.

It is. Get it for your little beautiful girl.

And there's a flute song in the end. Oh yeah.

I did a little song. You can hit the QR code and go listen to a special flute song. Uh, Lizzo, I adore you. Thank you for coming. This was so fun.

Yeah. Thanks so much.

Yay.

I had so much fun with y'all. I could talk all day.

Come back.

Okay. Let's go out with a song.

Okay.

Oh, okay. Okay, here we go.

That's not gonna work for me.

Time to focus on you. All the big fights, long nights that you've been through. I got a bottle of tequila I've been saving for you. Boss up and change your life. You can have it all, no sacrifice. No, you get it wrong, we can make it right. So go and let it all hang out tonight. He don't love you anymore.

Oh, you want it back?

Oh wow. You better lock your finances. All right, listen, if he don't love you anymore— Y'all gonna be sweating in these damn chairs.

Okay, great.

I sure hope there weren't any mistakes in that episode, but we'll find out when my mom, Mrs. Monica, comes in and tells us what was wrong. Okay, you have a story.

Yeah, I have a couple.

That you've withheld. This happens to us in real life occasionally.

Yeah.

Where I see you, normally I'd hear some fun story and then you have to reserve it.

For the fact check.

Yeah.

I have 2 actually.

Oh my God.

Okay, but I'm gonna start with this one first.

Okay.

So happy birthday, Jess. Jess is 50 today. That's a big old number.

That's a big boy.

It's a big boy for a big boy. Uh-huh.

And he's finally grown into his age.

Exactly.

Or aged into his growth.

He's aged into his size stature. Yeah. So we went to Palm Springs for just like 36, 38 hours.

Um, I was told by Anna you were blessed with no traffic on the way there, which is rare on a Friday.

It was great.

Maybe because it was 126 there.

It was hot. Yeah, it was really hot. So it was me, Jess, Anna, Erica, and Charlie. We kept it small for many reasons. One, it was very impromptu. But just, we wanted to go to this very specific restaurant that I think max is 5 people. The tables.

Wait, they only have 5 customers at once?

No, no, sorry. Like each table, you can't have like more than 5 people, maybe 6. I, but I think 5.

They don't have big tables.

Yeah, exactly. Um, so we went, it was so fun. Um, restaurant incredible.

kind of cuisine?

American Palm Springs.

Everything's fusion, isn't it?

It's fusion. Like, I had a burger, someone had a pork chop, steak frites.

Okay, so hearty stuff.

American. Yeah. And then there was a really cool bar attached to it that we went to. Anyway, great, but like chill night. Like, we were at the pool and then we did this dinner. Oh, and I walked to shopping, which was the first time I've No, maybe the second time.

The other time was in Georgia when you were in your— your family really wanted to drive you. You were going to take a walk.

Oh yeah, but I don't regret that. That was like—

I thought you said you got on the walk and you were like, yeah, it's too hot for this walk.

No.

Okay.

I don't regret that.

Oh, okay.

I had some regrets in Paris when I'm out— when I was out there in the heat wave.

Heat bubble.

Yeah, in the heat bubble. But then this was only— this was a 3-minute drive. I was like, I'm walking. This is crazy.

Yeah.

So it was like a 16-minute walk. 17-minute walk. I get out there, 2 minutes out, and I was like, oh wow, I'm like so hot and I'm getting nervous. Like, it's— then I'm starting to get— yeah, so I'm taking deep breaths, but I made it there.

You're back in SoulCycle.

Exactly, exactly. But I made it there to the store, and then 2 minutes later the store closed. I didn't look up the timing, so that was really upsetting. Anyway, easy, great Great day, fun day. Now, this hotel has 2 parts to it. It has a normal part with like rooms, great rooms, a big pool. And then there's an area, this special area called the bungalows.

Okay.

And they're extra and it's like kind of its own private area. So if you don't have a key card to that, you can't get in there. Um, and it has its own wading pool.

This is what you posted a photo of. I have an image of a long rectangular pool and then seemingly bungalows on the sides.

Yes, there's bungalows on the sides, and then in the pool on one side there's like 6 or so chairs that are in the pool, and so you can like lounge and be wet. It's so nice. I mean, the pool's like 18 inches.

Okay.

So there's no— yeah.

There's no diving or—

No, there's no diving. There's no swimming. You just like lay in it. No hold your breath Yeah, and it is kind of funny when people are walking because they just like splash. They're just walking through.

It must have been so warm as well. I mean, they would maybe even have to cool it at that depth in that heat.

The first day people thought it was— could be a little bit cooler.

Okay.

Not me, because, you know, I like the heat.

Yeah.

Uh, the second day we thought it was nice.

Okay, great.

Anyway, so we get back after dinner. And we decide to get in the pool. The pool closes at 10.

Okay, interesting. For Palm Springs, I feel like it would be open later, but continue.

I love that you said that. So, pool closes at 10. It's 8:40 when we get home and we all get in our bathing suits. We're all drinking water. Like no one, we are not rowdy, I guess is the whole purpose of me saying that. hang this. We all get in the pool, we're hanging, we're chatting, we're drinking water. And somebody opens the door to the bungalow behind us. Opens it like, what's this? Like—

Abruptly.

Abruptly. Thank you. And he said— it was a guy. He was probably, I would say, 60? Or young But had, you know...

Some hard miles.

Thank you.

Okay.

And he said—

Sorry. Did you fall down back there?

Are you okay?

What happened? My headphones got caught in the door. Oh, that scared me.

I thought he was being attacked back there.

I know.

Harder, not stronger.

I thought he had a seizure. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay.

Take your pick.

Okay. So he opens the door and he said, I can hear hear you. And we laughed, like we thought he was joking, being funny. Um, to remind people who don't know, Char— so we have Charlie, Jess, Charlie, Jess, me, Erica, Anna. Um, Charlie is huge and muscular, and Jess is huge as well. Jess is intimidating when he stands up, right? But we're all So he comes out and he's like, he's like, you're waking everybody up.

We're asleep.

We're asleep. And then what's so interesting is the way everyone starts behaving differently, right? So Erica—

I can feel how I would— I know the feeling that would be in my body.

Yes. Which is similar to Charlie.

Sure.

Okay. But Eric was like, don't worry, we'll move.

Oh, that's nice.

And I know. And I was like, no.

Yeah.

Um, and Charlie was like, hey, you need to chill, man.

Okay, yeah, sure.

Uh-huh. And he said, I need to chill? And Charlie was like, yeah, man, you need to chill. And he, he like turns around and this guy's like, I would never do this to you.

To him? To Charlie specifically?

To all of— like, when wake them up or something? He was like, we're asleep. I said, I said, it's 9.

Yeah.

And Charlie was like—

We're in Palm Springs, it's Friday night.

Charlie was like, the pool closes at 10.

Yeah.

It's 9 o'clock. And he's screaming at us and getting closer.

Oh.

He's starting to walk towards us.

What is his, his physical stature?

Um.

You're not great at this.

I'm not good at this.

Yeah. He's Tiny.

Okay.

But okay. So then Charlie gets up out of the sea and this is kind of comical because, you know, it's like 18 inches that he's just standing in this pool. And with like, you know, water to his ankles basically. And he's like, you need to go back inside. You know, Charlie's like, you need to go back inside. And he's like, oh, oh, look, with you and your tattoos, you think you're tough, man? I was like, oh my God, what is about to happen?

Yeah, this is a guy who hasn't been punched out. Too long. Been too long. He's been act— he's been acting like this to people and getting away with it.

And we heard a woman inside say—

She's so sick of being married to this guy. Exactly.

Yeah.

Glenn?

Steve.

Okay. Steve.

Steve, come to bed, she said. You could hear inside. And then Charlie was like, Steve, go to bed. And then— and he was just carrying on, carrying on, finally And finally he went inside.

Okay.

But it was a real showdown. Showdown. And I did not expect to feel what I felt.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

It was really interesting.

So what were you feeling?

I was like, I condone this. Yeah.

Yeah.

I condone Charlie, but Charlie didn't— he did not escalate. He did not cross the line. And he said after, he was like, I just told myself, do not get outta this pool.

Oh yeah. Right. 'Cause then, then we're in a— now we're in another situation. Yeah.

Yeah.

Now police are maybe coming.

I'm like, I, yeah. So I didn't want any of that to happen, but I was glad that he was saying stuff and standing up to him. And I also, I was like, it's 9. I was like, sir, we are allowed to. He didn't hear me at all.

Sure.

He couldn't hear women.

Yeah.

Um, but I was not afraid.

Uh-huh.

Of the confrontation. And then I was like, Whoa, this feels not natural for me.

Meanwhile, what's happening to me?

Meanwhile, Erika, Jess, and Anna have like moved in another area, and Erika keeps telling us, she's like, come on guys, come over. Like, come, Charlie, come. Like, you know, she's obviously—

Steven Charlie.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, the wives are like, come on everybody, let's just drop this.

But no, no to dropping it. Like, this guy, like, I did feel like moving Felt like he won. Uh-huh. And it was 9 o'clock in Palm Springs. And oh, I think I said something like, we've all paid to be here.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, we're all— what, what makes you think you can come? Like, if you— I understand if it's loud. First of all, you can come out and say, hey guys, I'm so sorry. I mean, whatever, there's a million ways to do this properly.

We go to bed so early.

Exactly.

We like to go to bed at 7.

Uh-huh.

Yeah.

Um, but you could do that, or you need to really take it up with the hotel.

You need— You also don't get a room next to the pool.

Well, all the bungalows are right there.

So that's not for you.

Exactly.

So this isn't a hotel for you.

You're just either tucked into the corner and you visit the pool when you want to.

Yeah. Like, yeah, this isn't the hotel for you. This is the way it's set up.

Don't beef with the architect, my friend.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, yeah, so we were all like a little like amped and kind of frazzled. But it was— it is funny, everyone behaves so differently in these situations. And I'm sure so much of it is childhood, so much of it is just personality, I guess. Like, I was kind of surprised. Like, I was surprised Erica wasn't more confrontational.

Uh-huh.

Because she's very strong and like speaks her mind and stuff like that in general.

But she's also in public relations, so she's really, really good. at, um, de-escalating, uh, you know, tensions that are rising. She has these big events, you know, so she's got to be a, a master judo expert at redirecting these hostilities, you know.

Yeah.

I think she's really well practiced. She's like dealing with the public a ton and clients and—

Yeah.

Yeah.

And Ana was sort of somewhere in the middle because she was, she was like, what? Like she was saying like kind of some stuff, but then not enough for her to like really hold her ground. So, and then Jess, you know, kind of gets up and then staggers away.

She trips 5 times. Literally.

He wants nothing to do with confrontation, really.

That's interesting because he often does.

I don't think he does. He does. My experience with him, and one time we got in a fight about this.

Yeah, yeah, that's like someone called someone gay or said something about Anna. Exactly.

And then it wasn't Anna, it was somebody else. But yes, something happened and she was really upset, and then Jess like went inside to go deal with it and then came back and had done nothing. And then I was really annoyed. Um, so, so we're all just so different in these circumstances. And you know, normally I think I'm like, no, walk away. We just don't— who cares? Who cares? Just, we need to walk away. That person is not Nothing to do with us. But I didn't feel that way.

Interesting. How do we describe it?

And I was like, I'm not moving.

This is your auntie vibes coming out now. You're an auntie.

No, I don't. No, I don't think that's it.

I don't like that.

I, I— now I'm starting to wonder why I ever thought— I don't know, because I am fine in confrontation. We do know this.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you— yeah.

So I don't know why I ever thought that I—

Well, I'm imagining you think you are anti-physical, physical confrontation.

Yes, which I am.

I am too. Yeah, until someone forces physical confrontation, and then— yeah, then I go, okay, this is how you want to have this confrontation. I can do either. I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll argue with you, or if you want to get down, I'm, I'm your Huckleberry. Like, let's, let's do that.

I know.

That Be conclusive. That's my— why I like it.

I still don't like it. I don't like it. I'm really proud of Charlie for staying in the pool. I'm glad he did.

Yeah.

But when this man is coming towards us with this anger and like screaming, and he's so aggressive, I was like, wow. Like, I do feel like maybe he deserves to get hit, which is— I've never felt that. So it's really wild.

Then it's a good thing we're transitioning, you and I. Like, now you're into— and I'm kind of like, I'm retiring from all of it. So it's, it's good that we weren't ever out on the scene. Oh God, with both of us that way. Because again, I have this chip on my shoulder about guys who have power in their jobs and they're used to like fucking screaming at people and, and doing things that would otherwise get them into a fistfight. Like You can't just do that unless you have some bullshit arbitrary power you're used to and you literally can't click out of— yeah, you're not in your office, bro, and I don't work for you, and you can't talk to people like this.

Yeah, I guess because I think I live with so much that you, you can't talk to people like that, you can't treat people like that. Like, I live with a lot of those feelings.

Yeah.

So I guess I was just like, yeah, this It was weird.

The heat had you.

I mean, also, he was just so clearly, obviously had been drinking like all day long. Obviously, who goes to bed? I mean, it was insane. As you said, 10 PM is too early.

Yes, yes, yes. For Palm Springs on a Friday night.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that was wild. And then it led to a different conversation where I— so then Charlie went to the front and he just said, hey, just so you know, this happened.

This is how this unraveled.

Exactly. And I— and this is also, I guess, a way that I act— I was like, someone's getting an email. Someone's getting an email tomorrow. The hotel's getting a stern email. And I said that to everyone. I was like, I'm, I'm telling the hotel, like, that this was completely unacceptable.

Uh-huh.

And then Then we were kind of split. Okay. Because some people were like, well, it's not their fault. And I was like, it's not their fault. It is absolutely not their fault.

Yeah.

But this happened at their hotel. It ruined a section of the night.

Yeah.

And it could and maybe did have an impact on whether anyone's— we're ever coming back here.

Okay.

So I think it is up to the hotel to say, like, I'm so sorry that happened. happened here. Um, you all get to come back for a full week for free.

I'm just kidding.

No, not like that. But still, I do think it's a responsibility of the establishment to do what they can, um, to make you want to come back. Because I did think like, oh well, if this— and also if it is too loud for people, like, that's a problem.

Yeah, yeah.

And I don't want to have dealt with that person. I hated that, even though I kind of liked it, but I hated it.

Yeah, a little bit. You liked it.

Um, and yeah, so then we got— we were all in a debate about that, me and Charlie, of course.

Of course. Yeah, he's the great email writer.

Yeah, he loves—

exactly.

But to be clear, we both believe— we're not like, oh, this is the hotel's fault. But—

So I'm on the side of confront that guy. And then not on the side of like, it's too bad you guys had to deal with that guy. And now these people working there got to deal with this guy downriver.

Yeah, but here's the thing that's also true. Like, they might need to put a flag on that or say to him like, hey, if you come back to this hotel, that can't happen again.

No dustups at the pool. Exactly.

Like, they need to know.

Go ahead and call us if you think someone's being too loud and we'll look into it.

Exactly.

Yeah.

So did you write an email?

I did not.

Okay.

Because then I got in my head about it a little bit. I'm still debating.

Okay.

Because I, I just— because I was thinking like, okay, if this happened at a restaurant, okay, because Jess was like, no, like, they don't, whatever. And I was like, Jess, if this happened at a restaurant and some patron screamed at another patron and like stormed over and stuff, of course it's not the restaurant's restaurant's fault, but the, the restaurant is gonna do something. The restaurant is probably gonna send them a dessert, something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And like pay for their coffees.

Tell the guy like, you can't do that here.

You're not welcome here anymore. Yeah, well, maybe when Charlie gave them the whole lay of the land. I know, but no one was really there.

It was just—

he didn't say it to anyone. A bellhop?

Kind of like there was no one there.

Oh, they were—

So that's why I felt the email was really necessary.

Okay.

Because I wanted to speak to a manager, the hotel owner.

Sure, sure, sure.

The front desk. Because I agree with you there, right? I'm like, what's this front desk person gonna do?

She's trying to get through their shift.

Yeah, so this is more of a higher-up situation that I wanted— I wanted I'm gonna.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Let me know how that goes.

Okay. It just was wild, this guy.

Yeah.

And then I felt really bad for the wife.

Yeah. I mean, that's— she's linked to this guy. You think that's not a standalone? That's not someone's first time acting like that.

Steve, come back to bed.

Steve, we can't do this again.

That's what—

See, I'm not going to bail you out again. Although Let's just devil's advocate. Yeah, maybe she was in there going, Steve, go fucking tell him to stop. Like, she could have been goading him, then he snapped because his wife's yelling at him.

She could have.

Yeah, that's some— that's a scenario that happens sometimes.

That happens. That could definitely happen.

I have a friend whose wife's always getting into fights, and he's just like— he can hear it from the car, and he's like, oh God, she's, she's yelling at the construction workers. How long before they call her a bitch? And then I gotta get out of the car.

So yeah, no, she could— it It definitely could have been. I just felt like, oof, this is a tough, tough situation. And then the next day we were at the other pool at the bar, and he— and this is like at 2 or 1 or something— and he comes up. And so we're all just kind of like standing there, and he doesn't say anything to us and orders his drinks and then goes. So we think he doesn't remember. Okay.

Yes.

So he might have been heavily intoxicated. Okay. One of the many reasons he would have lost that tussle with Charlie.

Oh yeah. You think you're a big man? I could— when he started saying that, I was like, oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like, who do you think you are? Like, who? I mean, it's crazy because I was like, yeah, you're asking for him to hit you when you go up in his face.

You're taunting a bear. Yeah.

Oh, with your tattoos.

Yeah.

It was wild.

Wow, how exciting!

It was exciting.

Yeah, very exciting.

But they owe us our money back.

Okay, okay, great. Okay, so that was one of 2 stories?

Yes. Okay, this is a different male story.

Okay.

I was on the West Side on Thursday, and once you get to the West Side, depending on your timing, you have Yeah, you're there for the day. You're there for the day into the night.

Yeah, till traffic dies down at 8 PM.

Exactly. So I was there and then I was like, okay, where do I go kill time? So I went to a place called Baltaire. It's a restaurant, it's in Brentwood. And I've been there before and I was like, they have like a loungy area. So I was like, I'll do work there. I have my computer. So I went and they were like, have a seat. um, seat wherever that doesn't say reserved. So I went, there was one table in the back that didn't say reserved. So I sat there and there was like obviously some sort of like gathering happening. Like kind of looked like maybe it was like a work, post-work or work thing. Anyway, I'm sitting there and then this guy comes up to me, this man, and he was like, I haven't met you yet.

How old?

Um, I would say he—

okay, I pretty much think everybody Yeah, it sounds like people are your age or they're 60 or they're 20.

No, people are 25 or they're 60. Okay. Um, and he came up to me and he said, I haven't met you yet. And I was like, oh, I'm not part of your party. And he was like, oh. And I said, but they told me to sit wherever I wanted if it didn't say reserved, and it doesn't say reserved. And he was like, oh, it's all reserved. And I was like, oh, uh, and he was like, but you're, you're fine. You're fine. You're not bothering anyone. Like you stay.

And I was like, well, had it filled up at this point with all the reserved tables?

No, there was like a couple more, but like people were coming and I was at a very, I was like at a big table, but that, cause I was the only one, there was the only one that didn't say reserved. And, and I was like, well, no, I don't want to be, I don't want to like intrude. And he was like, no, no, no, no, you're fine. And then like the bartender server lady comes up and she's like, this is reserved. I was like, okay, yeah, it doesn't say it. Um, and so I sat here, but where should I go?

Yeah.

And she was like, do you want to sit at the bar? Like the actual bar area. And I was like, well, am I allowed to with my computer? He said yes. I was like, okay, great. I go, I sit at the bar. Now I am the first In like the front seat. Uh-huh.

Where people would put in cocktail orders to your right, like the servers.

Exactly. Except, okay, but it's on the left and there was one seat there. But yeah, it's like on the corner. I'm not sitting there, you know? So I'm workies and it's great. I'm getting my edits done. I always wonder, I'm like, people can see. So they're just seeing, um, me and you and Lizzo.

Yeah, yeah.

Anyway, um, so I'm sitting there, I'm, I'm doing work, and then I, I look over and the bartender like comes and he puts down this placemat, this leather placemat at the seat next to me. No one else has this, by the way. Um, and he puts like a knife and a fork, and I thought, huh, who is about to come sit here?

Yeah, the president maybe.

Exactly. Yeah, so I'm kind of keeping an eye out. And then a man comes and sits there. I don't recognize him, but I'm noticing that everyone, like the staff-wise, is coming up to him and they're all like really engaging with him, hugging him. How old is he? 60.

Okay, great. It's— I feel stupid asking.

And, and I'm like, who is this guy?

Yeah, you love this. This has happened in New York.

This happens to me all the time.

Yeah, yeah, someone, a very VIP entrance. the scenario.

Yes!

Yeah, yeah.

And I was like, okay.

You're intrigued.

Yep, I'm intrigued. People are— and then I think— but I have headphones in, so I can't hear that well. But I hear something about sports. So I was like, maybe this guy, like, owns a sports team or something? And he was wearing a suit.

Oh, okay.

So then I'm intrigued, and then I take out my headphones to get a drink, right? So I'm just like— I take them out, and I'm waiting for a second. And he says—

Seizes. Uh-huh.

He does. He says, it was like 5:40 or something. And he was like, you, you have to stop working at 5:45. And I was like, oh, well, I don't think that's gonna happen. And he was like, um, well, they're gonna kick you out. But he was being very, very playful. I was not like nervous or anything, but I was like, oh, I guess I'll be on the street with my computer and my martini then. And then he laughed and laughed. He thought that was so funny.

Best joke he ever heard.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um, and I was wearing a—

Amy Schumer joke, remember?

Yeah.

Oh my God, you're not gonna believe what she said.

Kate Upton. Ding, ding, ding.

Upton's doing it.

Um, I was wearing a bandana that day. I've never worn one before, so I think I was feeling like a new personality.

Yeah, persona going. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Um, and she was cool, this girl. Me. Um, so then, you know, we talked for another second. Or whatever. Get my drink. I like kind of put my headphones back in and then all— and then this other person comes up to me. Extremely— shout out— extremely attractive man comes up to me.

Wow.

And I take my headphones off and he said, are you Monica? I said, yes. He said, I'm a huge Armchair Warrior.

Oh my God. And he was extremely attractive.

Yes. He had to me James Marsden energy.

Whoa. That's huge. energy.

Uh-huh. And I was like, no. Then my bandana was doing nothing for me. I was—

You were back to—

Yeah.

Yeah. Being an ugly dog.

Being regular Monica. Um, and I was like, oh, that's so nice. He was like, you just had a birthday. Happy birthday. And I was like, thanks. Um, I'm editing. I always tell people that I'm editing right now.

Yeah, sure. Um, and behind the curtain.

Yeah. And then he said, he said, can I take a picture? Uh, For my wife.

Ah, bummer.

Yeah.

Okay.

And, um, and I was like, sure, of course. And then he looks at this guy and he says, can you take a picture for us? And he hands the phone to him.

How exciting. Now that— now the old timer is like, shit, this bitch is famous.

So he says, yeah. He takes a picture. I say bye to the armchair. He walks away and this guy says, okay, well, I, I need to know who you are. Uh-huh.

You just said I own the Cardinals. Stay tuned for more Armchair Expert, if you dare.

I said, oh, I have a— I have a podcast. And he was like, oh, well, what is it? And I said, oh, it's called Armchair Expert. I host it with Dax Shepard. And he was like, oh. He's like, you do look familiar. And I was like, well, I don't know. I thought you were going to say he said, You do look like Dax Shepard. I thought it was you, Dax. No, he said, you do look kind of familiar. I was like, well, I mean, if you don't listen to the show, you— it's probably not. He was like, well, I mean, I know, of course I know Dax. And I was like, yeah. And he was like, well, then I think I put my headphones back in or something.

There's so much action happening. A lot is going on. This is like sitcom pacing. Yeah, like Cheers. Now this person enters, that person exits, they open the door to this conversation.

Yeah, exactly. And so then I think I take my headphones out again or something and he sees us again. He's quick. He knows, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

And he's like, it's like sitting next to someone on an airplane. Yeah. He said, I just doom scrolled you.

Oh wow. Oh wow.

Yeah. And he said, and I said, doom scroll? I was like, well, that's, I think, a bad thing. And he was like, well, my daughter, he has a 24-year-old daughter, so my daughter calls it that. Um, and he was like, you are famous. And I said, I think you're famous based on what I can see has been going on here for the past hour.

Yeah.

And I said, and I said, who are you?

Yeah, nice. Yeah, flip the script.

My bandana was doing a lot of the heavy lifting.

Yeah, you were back to bandana mode. Uh-huh.

And then, then things start going wild, right? Like, he's like, oh no, I'm just a regular here. And I was like, um, doesn't feel like that. You have your own placemat. I know how this And, and, and then he said he works for some people.

Okay.

Um, and then, and, and then the bartender, this really nice bartender, Carlos— I learned about Carlos— he comes up and he was like—

Not 60.

No, Carlos is not 60.

I had a hunch he wasn't 60.

And, um, Carlos is joking with this man and he's like, how'd you get her to talk to you? I've been trying to talk to her.

Well, Carlos was saying that. Yeah, but you are the head of this bar. You should go here all the time. I would never leave this place.

Well, listen, so Baltaire is a very specific place. It is a specific vibe. People are there to meet people.

Oh, great, great.

Now, to me, it's a, it's a type. So West Side. And so I think that's also like, the cultures in LA are very different. The West Side's very different from the East Side.

Yeah.

So I think I felt kind of like in a fun way fish out of water.

Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah.

Because I'm in a bandana.

Yeah, yeah.

A like terry cloth Suzy Condi— great shirt, green shirt. You know, people are in pants, like loose pants. People are there in basically their underwear, you know. Like, people are there looking sexy. It's very specific. And I guess this is Thursday night, And Thursday night is live music night. And so it was like so packed.

Yeah. Okay.

Wow. Um, and I think it gave me confidence because I was like, oh my God, like, what is— this is such a scene.

Yes.

Yes.

And I think this person was intrigued by me because I was not doing this, you know, playing the game.

This is me at the Four Seasons with the tattoos. Like—

Right. But I didn't even know.

You were enjoying it.

I was enjoying it and I wasn't on the prowl. Like if I was on the prowl, then I would be like, oh, I like look crazy.

Uh-huh.

But I—

But I'm saying you got to experience the thing I'm always trying to say is like, oh yeah, I kind of dig that everyone—

Yeah.

I'm not participating, which removes me from the stakes of it all.

That's, yes, definitely. It removed me, it removed the stakes, but also, yeah, I just felt really confident in my bandana.

Yeah, great.

So then we, We start talking. I talk to this person for— I leave at 9.

Uh-huh.

And we talk the whole time. And then we have some other friends next to us that we make.

Yeah, great. And there's like an hour and a half of talking or more?

Like 3 and a half hours.

Wow, this is a meet cute.

And then like I eat some of his steak and I order a potato.

Yeah, wow, this is so fun.

It was so—

You were being hemmed and hawed over.

I was, 'cause then I ordered a Barolo. Shout out, if anyone wants to send me Barolo. It is my favorite wine.

Oh, that's a wine.

It's a type of wine, and it is very rarely on the menu as a by the glass.

They want you to get the bottle.

Yeah. So, but they had it by the glass, and so I ordered a Barolo, and he said to Carlos, he said, oh, the perfect woman.

Oh yeah, this is very—

He's Italian.

The man was, not Carlos.

Exactly.

Okay, because Carlos could go either way.

I was thinking Oh, he actually could be Spanish.

Yeah, Carlos Sainz.

Exactly. Anyway, um, he— so, so that was fun, and, and we talked about everything. We talked about dating. Um, he's, he's looking— yeah, he's divorced, but he has a great relationship with his, um, ex-wife. And his— unfortunately, his house burned down in the Palisades, which is very sad, but now he lives in Beverly Hills. Beverly Hills. And we talked, and I asked him what happened in his marriage.

Oh yeah.

And, um, I asked what he's looking for in a partner.

Yeah.

All these things. I told him about the Dairy Queen story. Oh, uh-huh. Okay. Um, yeah. So we just chatted.

And how overt was he being? Was he going like, well, that's crazy 'cause you are so beautiful? Was he going hard?

He didn't say you're so beautiful, but he was giving me compliments.

Yeah. Yeah.

And we discussed Trizz. We discussed every— he knows everything about me.

Wow.

I was just enjoying him so much.

Sure.

Yes.

Like, I— and I was like, oh my God, this is my new friend. Like, he's a fun friend.

Yes.

And I got his name, we exchanged numbers.

Yeah, yeah.

And he paid for my— all my drinks.

Sure, of course. He lives in Beverly Hills.

Well, it was actually really cute because I obviously wanted to pay, and I went to pay, and then Carlos, you know, gave me my change. I checked, but it was just a smiley face. Oh, nice.

Really? He gave Carlos the wink. He's probably got it all like sorted.

Oh, he has it all dialed. And at one point they gave me a placemat.

Oh my goodness. I know. Whoa.

Because I said, I said, oh my God. I mean, he has—

Do you think you'll ever hang out with him again? Because there's the elephant in the room is I'm sure he'd love to make love to you. So how do you—

I'm not— I don't want— I would like to keep it as a friendship, but I also like kind of Like that it was like a, it was a, what's that called? In the pan, flash in the pan. Like it was like a really fun just night.

One-off. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I like really just have a fondness for him and for that evening. Yeah. And I don't really—

This is how these older men woo you. It's like they just, they're just a good time. And then all of a sudden you're like, I mean, he's definitely listening to this.

Oh, well, so shout out, you know who you are. Um, I did overhear him saying he's buying a house in Puglia.

Where the hell's Puglia?

Italy. Oh, Jesus. I know.

You're gonna be on a wooden Chris-Craft boat on Lake Tahoe.

I did think, I thought, this is how it happens.

Yeah.

This is exactly how it happens. And like, and also he's great. Like, he, he had a great personality. It was very, very enjoyable to talk to. Funny, understood funny, which was great.

Key.

And so like, I said I would keep my eyes peeled for someone for him.

Uh-huh.

More in his age range?

I just, I don't know what he is, but I, I, I, I don't know. I just—

Did you ask him what age he dates?

I did.

Yeah. And what'd he say?

He said he doesn't have like, he doesn't have any restrictions on that.

20s fine.

Basically, I feel like 20, 30, 40. He was just like, it doesn't matter as long. And then he gave me some requirements, which were good requirements. He liked that people had their own thing.

Yes, of course.

Which is what I also And me too. Yeah, exactly. So anyway, I, um, this—

I don't want a passenger.

Exactly. He didn't want a passenger. He wanted some, but he also did, 'cause he was like, he's ready. He, you know, he's like lived a big life already. Uh-huh. And he's ready to like travel and do a bunch of things. So he kind of, he want, he needs someone. So this is, I'm putting this out there for people who are interested and I can set you up. Okay. Um, he, He is—

20 to 60, if you're listening.

And he's interested in someone with purpose and has their own thing going on, but he also wants to travel and stuff and want a partner. He is in a little bit of a pickle here.

Yeah. Yep.

But there's gonna be someone for him.

Well, he sounds very charming.

He was, he was fantastic.

He got through to you.

Exactly.

Yeah.

Yeah. Extremely hard to do.

Yes. I'm, I'm blown away by both parties.

It was really fun.

Okay, those are both wonderful stories, and I have a tiny one that's just not wonderful. It's just me telling on myself, only because it just came up in an Armchair Anonymous.

Oh wow.

And I wanted to tell you just because it was one of the more awkward things I've ever done.

Oh no.

So this was back in Tennessee over the summer. Delta had a friend flying in, and that's a whole process if an unaccompanied minor is flying.

Oh right. Yeah.

So you gotta go to the airport, you know, you gotta— you declare yourself, they need all this information on you, great. And you got to get there really early, um, to get a— not a boarding pass, but a pass that can get you through security to get you to the gate, right?

Yes.

So I left the house and I was like, okay, I gotta go pick up my, um, Hi-Flector 2000. That's my— that's your zapping instrument. And, and because it required signature, I had it delivered to Walgreens because I was afraid we wouldn't be home.

Oh, smart.

Do you ever do this?

I don't.

I hate signature. Just to everyone in the world, no more signatures. Okay.

Did Delta go with you?

No.

Oh, it's just you? Okay.

It was just me because it was hours, right? I was gonna have to be there early, then whatever, and she wouldn't have been able to come through the gate.

Oh, she can't, right?

So am I gonna leave her in the lobby of the airport? So anyways, I leave my house and I, I'm on the edge of me being comfortable, I'm like, I gotta get to the airport and check in. I wanna make sure this little girl isn't getting off of a flight for her first time flying by herself and I'm not standing there.

Yeah.

So I'm a little stressed about that. I probably shouldn't have tried to pick up the thing. I'm like, I'll just turn left, it's just a mile, and then I'll be back on track. So I go into the Walgreens and I say like, hey, I'm picking up a package. And she's like, okay, the name? And I say, Dax Shepard, and here's the address. And so, uh, she can't really find the box, but I can see the box. We're already in that situation, right? Why can't she see that? But maybe I think it might be that one, right? So, so she gets the box and then she comes up and I show her my license and it says my name on the box. And she goes, okay, the tracking number.

Oh yeah.

And I go, oh, I don't, I don't know the tracking number. And she's like, well, I can't give you this unless you have the tracking number. And I go, even though it says my name on there and I'm showing you my license?

No.

I go, okay, let me go out to the car to get my phone to see if I can find this tracking number. So I go out to the car, I get my phone, and you know, you would think it'd be easy to find it. It's not easy to find. I get so many emails from FedEx and UPS, I don't even know which carrier it's been sent by at this point. I'm going through forever, and now I'm starting to get like, oh fuck, man, what if I can't find this? You know, I'm getting a little stressed. Finally I find it.

Great.

Oh my gosh, I find it. And as I'm turning to show her the phone, she doesn't even look. She goes, okay. And then she grabs this tablet, right? And I'm already like, you didn't even look at the tracking number.

Okay, so you're getting—

I'm just like, God, why did we have to do that? Yeah, like, what is this protocol? It doesn't make a ton of sense to me. And then she gets out this, uh, iPhone-y type thing to sign. I go, okay, no problem. I sign and I go, uh, I'm about to grab the package. She goes, oh, we gotta initial some places. And then so it's like She finds one of the places to do an initial. I do one of the initials. I go to grab the box, and then she goes, hold on, we got more. And she's— now she's scrolling through the thing, and I, I, I, I just kind of snapped. I go, and this is— I go, I go, I love you, but I'm taking this box. I gotta go.

Oh.

And I just grab my high flexor.

Oh.

And I walk out, and I get in the car, and I go, I just said to her, I love you. But I have to take this box and I have to go.

Okay.

And I'm like, why did I say that? Why did I say I love you? And then I was like, oh, it's because almost every time I have to— we get to that point with the kids and I got to go, I love you, but we're not going to that restaurant at 9:00 at night. It's always, I love you, and here's terrible news.

Right?

And I'm so muscle memory. Just imagine you're her. And I go, I love you, but I'm taking this package.

Yeah, it's pretty wild.

It's so weird.

Although I do— I think a lot of people are used to hearing that.

I love you.

I love you, but—

oh, okay. So maybe to her, she didn't even—

not do that.

Like I say that I gotta get to the airport and pick up this little girl, you know? That's that. But, but I love you.

What if you said that?

I love you, but I have to pick up a little girl from the airport.

I shipped in a little girl from another state.

Wow.

Yeah.

Now I've question. So you pick up Delta's friend?

Yes.

And how was the car ride with you and this little girl? Just you two?

I know her so well now. She's around nonstop. Yeah. So I know her really well. She's at our house nonstop. And I drive her home all the— well, Delta obviously always comes when I drive.

That's what I'm saying. I actually think like, I'm putting myself in the position.

For her, that did cross my mind. Like, oh my gosh, you gotta ride with somebody's dad. Yeah.

For 20 That would scare me. I was scared of people's dads.

When she was getting— I'm starting to get panicked because I'm watching everyone come off this flight. And you know, often there's like, there's these huge gaps.

Oh, I know.

Because some— someone can't get their bag out or whatever. So I keep thinking, oh my God, she's not on this flight. Now what am I gonna do? Like, I had 5 mini panics.

Yeah.

And there was a huge gap. And I'm certain I'm watching the last person get off the plane, then this long, long gap. And then I see her coming at me down the gangway with this flight attendant, and she looks at me and throws up double peace signs. And I'm like, oh, she's a gangster. She didn't care at all about flying on her own. We've also taken this— I think I told you, I took her to Disneyland with Delta on her birthday, and she's the one that wanted to ride the rides with Ryan and I over and over again, like the ones that were too scary. She doesn't give a fuck.

Okay, well, I love that. Yes.

So she was fine.

And that's good for her because I, I would be so scared to ride with someone's dad.

Sure. Yeah.

And like, what are we gonna talk— like, do I have to talk to him?

I really— I already had prepared. Like, she— I know she— where she had been that summer. I know who she's with. I know her family members. So I had many questions to keep the ball rolling the whole ride home. And it was a lovely ride home. And yeah, it wasn't awkward at all.

Good.

That reminds me when I was little, littler, um, in middle school, I would go to my best friend Gina's house a lot. And, uh, her dad and mom were around a lot, but her dad picked us up a lot. And, um, he was— he's still a very cool person, cool dad. Um, and, but like, yeah, I would be really quiet around her dad. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Um, and then he said once to Gina, Gina, he said, what's going on with Monica? Like, she's so quiet, but then when she's in the room with you, like, we can hear her. Like, she's like so exuberant. And I was so embarrassed.

Oh, about that observation had been made?

Yes.

Okay. Um, and I didn't like that, you know, 'cause I was like, well, now I don't know what to do. Like, I guess I need to—

Turn it down or turn it up?

Yeah, I didn't know.

I think turn it up on the dad's side.

I mean, over time, I mean, I ended up knowing him my whole life. So like, over time he did get the full me.

Yeah, yeah.

But I was just taught to be like, don't talk to people, adults, you know.

It'd be my preference I'm never with a kid by myself. Yeah, I just— I would prefer to not be, you know.

Yeah, sure.

I don't like— you know, there are times when I'm taking her home and maybe Delta's been told it's time to get ready for bed, and I always go, no, no, you're coming with me. I'm not I don't want to be alone. Yeah, I just, I just, you know, I agree. It's just preferable to me that one of my kids is always present if I'm with someone.

Exactly.

And I would imagine the parents would prefer that too, as I would prefer.

Yes.

That mom joins or the friend joins.

Yeah. Yeah. So interesting.

It really is.

Okay, we do have facts.

Okay, great.

This is for Lizzo. Okay, some facts for Lizzo.

Yes.

Does Kmart still exist? And then you said in Mexico, maybe.

Yeah.

3 locations do remain worldwide.

Okay.

Miami.

Oh, wow.

But it's a small format store operating in a former garden center, so it's not the old kind. Okay. Charlotte Amalie, U.S. Virgin Islands.

Wonderful. That might even be worth me planning a vacation around that.

It says a larger department store. And then Guam. Guam, also a larger department store.

Great.

Um, but it says poor Kmart family.

Yeah, I hate when things go under.

Go under.

Yeah, yeah, it sucks.

I told you, I thought the Kmart mansion was for sale. I think so. Maybe even how that even came up.

No, it didn't.

But yeah, there's a mansion for sale in Michigan. Oh my God, I think maybe even Jack White owned it or some, some Detroit famous person. and owned it and bought it for like, I don't want to say $10 or $12 million at one point, and then now it's for sale for like $3.7 or something. But it's this huge castle on like all this property.

Why is it just declining in value?

I think the same way these castles in England, they cost so much to keep up. They're just like, you know, they're— everything's 120 years old inside and it's all separated by concrete and stone. You know, it's not easy access. I just think it's a beatdown to keep these things—

That sucks.

Operational.

Okay, is Devil's Night only in, uh, Michigan? Yes, using the specific name Devil's Night for the night before Halloween, October 30th, is primarily a Michigan tradition, especially centered around Detroit. But says there are— while other places do not call it Devil's Night, many regions across the US and the UK have a similar night of pranks and minor Vandalism. They use different local names. Mischief Night.

Okay, not as fun.

That's common in New Jersey, parts of New York, Pennsylvania, and parts of England. Goosey Night. Oh, that's used in parts of New Jersey. Sounds like New Jersey.

Well, we know New Jersey is. Yeah.

Um, Cabbage Night, common in upstate New York and parts of New England. Gate Night, used in places like Bay City, Michigan.

Oh, okay, Bay City.

And then Beggar's Night, observed in areas like Des Moines, Iowa.

I gotta say, we have the coolest name for it— Devil's Night.

Well, it's like we go hardcore, cut to the chase.

Yeah, yeah.

Goosey Night is silly goose, or you pinch people's butts.

Why? That's what you call goosing someone.

You do?

Yeah, like it feels like a goose bit your butt. You never— I've never grew Remember hearing that? My mom always says it.

Oh, she did?

Yeah.

Then he gooses me.

Oh yeah.

Or you can say goose the throttle too.

I think pinching butts is out of favor.

Like, it's very cute.

I think it was an '80s thing.

It was huge in my junior high and elementary.

So '80s, '90s. But I like— no one was doing that.

And I just loved— I was at my locker and someone— I felt someone pinch my butt and I turned around, it was one of the rascally girls. And I loved It was so fun.

I know. I just don't think it's in anymore.

I don't think you're allowed to grab anyone anymore.

Well, if they're your boyfriend or girlfriend, sure, sure. But even that, I'm saying, I don't think is like a thing.

Delta does a lot of butt pinching with her friends.

She got that from you.

But she didn't. Oh, I think she did.

Okay.

I was looking up some urban legends because we talk about urban legends. Um, now which— what do you want to hear? Do you want to hear 50 of the spookiest urban legends from every state? We could pick some states. Just a list of urban legends? That sounds dumb. But then the others are like from a long time. I want to do this one. Okay, it's from Reader's Digest.

Ooh, blast from the past. Kmart, Reader's Digest.

Exactly.

Urban legends.

Okay, do you want to pick a state?

Yeah, I do. Um, I want to pick Florida.

Okay.

I mean, we should probably save that till last, but—

Okay, ready?

Yeah.

Florida is Captain Tony's. Since 1852, Captain Tony's, the oldest saloon in Key West, has been known to be haunted. Doors slam for no apparent reason, and there are inexplicable banging noises and frequent ghostly visitations.

But why?

Well, the building itself has a long and storied history, one that includes being built around a tree that the town once used for hangings and for being the site of the town's original morgue. Many died around that tree, including a young woman who allegedly murdered her husband and 2 sons. She was hanged in a blue dress covered in blood, and she hasn't left the scene, appearing to patrons as the Lady in Blue.

Oh wow. So that's more of a ghost story than urban legend.

Yeah, I think these are those ghost stories. It says urban legends, but let's look at Michigan.

Are these New Georgia?

Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm waiting for a hot dog or a Pepsi bottle or a vacuum cleaner.

Uh-oh.

I don't know this. Georgia, the Song of the Cell.

Okay.

As urban legend goes, in 1848, Ellick and his wife Betsy—

Was this gonna be in Savannah?

Probably, yeah.

Okay.

Both enslaved people.

Okay. Bad start.

Yeah. God, Georgia.

Well, yeah.

Were in their home one night when their— this is a bad— this is bad.

Their master?

Yes.

Yeah, yeah.

Were in their home one night when their master, drunk and belligerent, crashed through the door. He attempted to attack Betsy, but Ellick fought him off. Undeterred, the master— I hate saying that. The master chased Ellick up a ladder into a loft. As the struggle continued, the master lost his balance, fell out of the loft, and died. I can't say I miss him. Even though Ellick turned himself in to the sheriff the next morning, explaining that what had happened was self-defense, he was still charged with murder.

Oh boy.

A common occurrence in the antebellum South. Ellick was imprisoned in the old Lawrenceville Jail. Lawrenceville's near me. And later—

That's the best one silver lining.

And later executed unjustly for the crime. People say they can still hear his sorrowful song through the walls of the old jail.

This is horrible. Yeah, these are like ghost stories.

All right, let's look at Michigan. I hated that. And I'm disappointed.

Yeah, the word master, you know, it has so many different meanings and applications. And then this One, uh, gross one, and it's got the power to take down the word entirely. Like, they've dumped it from master bedroom. I know, uh, you got master cylinder, you got, uh, you know, but what if you're a master? Master class.

Do you hear mine?

Masturbator. Yeah, that's—

That was a funny joke. Okay, ready? Michigan.

Yeah, but what about people like that are masters at things? Don't you feel bad for them a little bit? Because that was a good distinction. I know, but he's a master carpenter or she's a master I think you just say expert like we do. Okay.

All right.

What if this had been called Armchair Master?

Nope. I wouldn't have allowed that. Okay. Ready? Michigan. The Nain Rouge. Ever heard of it?

Well, Rouge. We have the River Rouge, which is red, right? In French.

Do you know what Nain is?

No.

It's dwarf.

The red dwarf?

Yeah. Oh my goodness. This is one of the urban legends still recognized today and is celebrated by the people of Detroit Every year. They say there's a devilish creature known as the Nain Rouge, French for red dwarf, who causes mayhem in the city. Small and red. This is Devil's Night, probably. Small and red with a piercing, cacklish laugh, he's thought to be seen when disaster is about to strike and is even said to be the reason for the Cadillac Company's downfall in the city.

Oh, wow.

Okay. That one was the most substantial.

Why is he driving industry out of the city? I guess he hates his city.

He's a rascal.

Yeah.

He's a devil. Okay, well, those weren't really urban legends, so—

Not as we normally think of them.

That was annoying. Okay, now a couple though. Bloody Mary. We all know Bloody Mary. Do you know Bloody Mary? You don't know Bloody Mary?

Well, you can't say it in the mirror.

A famous mirror ritual where chanting a name multiple times in a dark room summons a vengeful spirit. I once had a sleepover and invited my friend and told her about this, and she had to go home.

Oh God, you spooked her. that much. Yeah.

Oops.

The Hook-Handed Killer, a cautionary tale about a maniac with a prosthetic hook attacking young couples parked in secluded areas. I think I've heard that one.

Yeah, started by the Moral Majority to prevent people from hooking up.

Ew, I've definitely heard of this one. Okay, The Licked Hand, a story about a girl who thinks her dog is licking her hand at night only to find the animal murdered and an intruder under her bed. I've heard this.

That feels familiar.

Yeah.

Again, like I was saying, the expert that was telling us about it is like, it's these weird details that end up being sticky. So it's like licking the hand, right? That's what makes it memorable. And the dead animal. The small coffin with the note in it.

I know, that's your favorite.

Yeah. Like, why would he— where would one get a— he's a woodworker. He made a miniature coffin.

Oh, Slenderman.

I've heard of that.

Oh yeah, yeah. I saw Doc on that.

Yeah, me too. Okay, now, can you catch things from a Public toilet seat. You are extremely unlikely to catch an infection or sexually transmitted disease from sitting on a toilet seat.

Yeah.

Unless you're married.

I know that was the— we already said that. Okay. It says fragile germs. Most bacteria and viruses that cause STDs or illnesses die very quickly when they leave the human body and hit a dry, hard surface. Healthy skin acts as a strong protective against germs. To get sick live germs from the seat, we need to directly enter an open wound or your mucous membranes, which is rare from simply sitting down. Also, no, because what if—

You've never gotten your vagina on the edge of the seat?

I guarantee people have gotten their vagina on the seat.

Have you?

I hover, but a lot of people sit and I could see what if they kind of fall and then they sit and then like—

You'd have to sit on the corner of the toilet to accomplish this.

No, like—

And then let's just do the math. Yeah, you gotta like sidesaddle the seat, which is insane. I just don't see that happening. Additionally, the person before you had to sidesaddle it to get the STD on that area of the toilet.

No, not sidesaddle. Okay, let's say—

For the listener, Monica's pointing at the little—

This is the toilet seat.

Yeah, the U.

So, okay.

The outside of your cheeks go on.

So I'm unbuttoning.

Yeah.

Ah!

No, because you would have put your butt cheek in the big hole and you would have fallen over to the side into the water.

Look, okay, I know. So if you're hovering, you're hovering like this.

There's no— you would have been touching the front where there's no seat.

And I know the seats. Listen, I'm gonna take a picture.

I don't— I'm interested in why you're incentivized for STDs to be contagious on toilet seats.

I'm not. I'm just trying to talk things through.

Okay.

As a woman who Sits on toilet seats and you're a man.

Well, you just told me you hover, but—

I mean, at mine I sit. Like, you're a man, you stand.

Yeah, so not when I go number 2.

Right, so, but that's different. Okay, so also, um, it does say toilet— what you might actually encounter: gut bacteria.

Yeah, yeah, okay.

Toilet seats can carry small amounts of bacteria like E. coli or strep. Disgusting. Okay. Can you get an STD from a hot tub? You cannot. From just sitting in or soaking in the water of a hot tub.

Yeah.

Unless you're married.

They die very— That's such a good joke. They die very quickly outside the human body.

And there's chlorine.

It says you do not catch an STD from the water itself.

Yeah, you'd have to be sliding down the handrail with your vagina or anus.

Oh, so you're saying you could—

If you slid down and someone else had just just slid down.

People have done that for sure, and they're, they're doing—

their vagina would rip it apart, you know that. Even in your drunkest state, you would never think it was a good idea to hot dog bun the handrail.

I wouldn't, but I've been around so many people who are drunk and then they're trying to impress boys, and then the boy slides down like, I'll be fun, and then they do that.

Okay, okay.

What does Joel Osteen own.

Oh, um, what does Joel Osteen own?

Great. A 17,000-square-foot mansion in Houston, Texas, valued at approximately $10.5 million to $14 million. His net worth is estimated between $50 million and $100 million. Um, he does not take a salary from Lakewood Church. His wealth comes from best-selling book royalties, speaking engagements, and Media projects. So his megachurch purchased and moved into the Compaq Center, originally known as the Summit in Houston, Texas arena that was the home of the Houston Rockets.

Did he ever own the Charlotte Arena? Was he there?

I don't think so.

Oh, wow. So there's another megachurch owner that has the Charlotte Arena.

Okay. Unfortunately, you were wrong.

Oh, wow.

And Run-DMC They wore Adidas, not Filas.

Makes sense. They did have a song about it.

Yeah.

I wonder who wore Filas.

Well, Lizzo did. Okay, how to pronounce flutist, flutist. So it's based on region, kind of.

Chef's choice.

British English is flutist. American English is flutist, though flutist is also used— and it says the more common North American alternative pronounced flutist. So I guess any, but I would say flutist.

I'm going to stick with flutist because it took me the longest to learn.

You can't unlearn that. Okay, now we talked about Morning Becomes Eclectic, and you said the guy that runs it ended up doing a lot of stuff for—

Music supervision.

Was it Tom Schnabel or Schnabel? He was the show's originator.

I know the person person I'm talking about did, uh, some music placement on Parenthood, and I'm embarrassed I don't know.

Was it— would you know it if I said it? Chris Doritos?

Doritos?

It really sounds like that. That's sad.

Could have been Chris Doritos.

Nick Harcourt?

Nick Harcourt?

Jason Bentley.

I'm just— I'm really sorry, I'm not gonna know.

Ann Litt, Novena Carmel, and Anthony Valadez.

So lots of people were programming, I guess.

Well, these are over the course of time.

Yeah.

But if he were— if it was Parenthood, that would have been 2012. That would have been Jason Bentley.

Okay, that sounds right.

Yeah.

I'm trying to remember Larry telling me his name 14 years ago. And I just don't have it.

I understand.

Yeah.

Okay. Um, what's a Colorado mimosa? Often called a colomosa. Hard cider-based twist on the classic champagne cocktail made by mixing traditional hard cider with fresh orange and lime juice.

Yummy.

Okay. The topmost viewed Tiny Desk concerts, 'cause you said Anderson .Paak's was the biggest ever. You were just saying words.

Yeah.

Um, Dua Lipa. Dua Lipa is the biggest, 142 million views.

Wowzers.

Then Mac Miller.

Ah.

137 million. Then Anderson .Paak.

At what?

118 million.

Okay, let's get Anderson up there to the top of the leaderboard.

Also Lizzo, remember she said she has a, um, underwatched.

Yeah, watch hers first, but also let's get Anderson in the number 1 slot.

Um, all right.

Mac Miller, that, that was my introduction. Uh, yeah, somehow when, you know, as I told the story—

Your desk is so great.

It's so cool. Good for them, man.

I know.

I found, I found a Fila.

Tupac wore Filas?

Tupac's in some Filas.

Okay.

That's cool. And he's in front of a Jaguar XJS. Yeah, it was, uh, for an insert of one of his albums. He wore them.

They were Grant Hill sneakers.

Ah, Detroit. Ding, ding, ding. What a player. Grant Hill always led the league in triple-doubles.

Something just happened with Tupac.

His murderer was convicted.

Okay.

Yesterday or the day before.

Wow.

Some 18 years later or whatever it was.

Wild.

Just think about having murdered someone and you've gotten away with it for like a decade. When do you start thinking like, well, I guess I'm probably Yeah, for real. I think 14 years in, I would be like, I guess I got away with it.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

Whoa.

Can never get comfy. That's one of the—

Scary.

Prices you pay for being a murderer is the rest of your life you're like, am I going to prison?

Yeah. Do you think they like it? Kind of like what happened with, um, Steve at the pool? Like, like they kind of get off on like—

Well, you know what, I, I have a little bit of a moral conundrum. Sometimes these people get brought to justice like 30 years after the fact. You read about them. I know, it's like you— when you read an 82-year-old's getting sentenced to life, I kind of don't like it. I'm like, well, obviously they didn't kill a bunch more people or do a bunch more shit.

Unless they did, like Robert Durst.

Yeah, for sure.

So, but I agree, if it's like a one and done, but it's still like—

It's just like, well, fuck, they were already out for 30 years, they didn't cause any more wreckage. Do we really need to now spend money to make an old person die in jail. It gets tricky for me.

It is tricky.

I wouldn't— it wouldn't be tricky for me if it was my loved one that was hurt.

Exactly.

But although being outside of that dynamic, I, I just go like, what's this all about? What's the point of this? So that this guy can die in jail?

It depends also on the crime.

Yeah.

I think maybe, I don't know.

Yeah.

Um, not saying anything, but just Okay, I'm not gonna say anything. Okay.

Um, do you want to tell me and cut it?

No, because you'll be mad.

It's—

it could be a spoiler.

Okay. Okay.

Um, oh wow, you know about a court case I don't know about?

Um, all right, well, that's it.

That was everything for Lizzo.

Yes.

Long time coming. I'm glad we got her.

Me too. So fun.

All right, love you.

Love you.