Transcript of The Activists Working to Abolish IVF

I'm Ayesha Rosco, and this is the Sunday story. As the November election approaches, some Republicans, among them, former President Trump, seem to be trying to soften their image on abortion restrictions. Take this statement from former President Trump in an interview with NBC News in August. He criticized a Florida law prohibiting the procedure after about six weeks of pregnancy. I think the six week is too short.

It has to be more time. And so I've told them that I want more weeks.

Trump played a key role in the overturning of Roe v Wade, but he appears to be adjusting his position to appeal to swing voters. This has raised concern amongst some anti-abortion groups including a group of activists who favor not only state and federal restrictions, but total abortion bans without exception.

I am for the abolition of abortion, not its regulation, not its incremental long, drawn-out end.

For the total immediate criminalization of abortion. This is T. Russell Hunter speaking in April at a conference in North Carolina for activists who describe themselves as abortion abolitionists. He leads a group called Abolitionists Rising, which hosted the conference. Hunter has been getting his message out through social media, especially YouTube, where he has close to a quarter million followers.

I watch Donald Trump and see what he's been saying over the years about abortion. He said contradictory things. And so I'm looking at it. Well, I can't vote for Donald Trump because he's still opposed to abolishing abortion.

Npr Sarah McCammon has been following this abortion abolitionist movement over the past several months, and she joins me now. Hi, Sarah.

Hey, Ayesha.

So, Sarah, let's start with this. What is abortion abolitionism? And how do these activists differ from others in the anti-abortion movement?

Abortion abolitionists want to ban all abortions with no exceptions for rape, incest, or life of the mother. Abortion abolitionists oppose anything that causes destruction of an embryo, which they see as equal to a human being. That includes the fertility treatment IVF or in vitro fertilization, which often creates leftover embryos that are frozen or discarded. One of the most significant positions these abortion abolitionists hold is they They support treating abortion as identical to homicide. That means charging anyone involved in abortion or some other types of reproductive health care, like I just mentioned, with murder, including patients and doctors, with penalties up to and including the death penalty.

So the women who are pregnant, if you go and get an abortion, they favor the death penalty? That's what you're saying?

Yes, in at least some situations. And that position is out of step with the messaging from traditional anti-abortion activists who say they don't want to punish women who have abortions. Now, I want to be clear, Ayesha, the distinction between these different groups within the anti-abortion movement can sometimes be murky. So on the issue of rape and incest exceptions, for example, there is some variability within the larger anti-abortion movement. Some major anti-abortion groups don't think there should be exceptions for rape and incest. A growing number of states have abortion bans in effect without those exceptions. But there is also a long history of Republican support for legislation that includes those exceptions. That's Trump's position, for example. Just to note here, at NPR, we don't use terms like pro-choice or pro-life, which are favored by advocacy groups. Instead, we talk about whether or not people oppose or support abortion rights. But the abolitionists are critical of most of what we know as the anti-abortion rights movement, the major groups that lobby elected officials to restrict abortion. That's because abolitionists The abolitionists see these groups as too willing to compromise.

What about strategy here? How do they differ in how they're trying to make these changes?

The major anti-abortion groups tend to take a more pragmatic work within the system approach. They've worked closely for decades with Republican lawmakers and Republican Party officials to elect candidates who align with their views at all levels of government and make gradual changes to the law rather than getting behind ideas that extremely unpopular with the public, like jailing women who have abortions or banning IVF altogether. Now, abolitionists, meanwhile, are quite willing to take those positions. They criticize these major anti-abortion groups for not doing so. While abolitionists are working within the political system to some extent, they're much less concerned about messaging and less interested in incremental progress.

How did you become interested in covering them Are they influential?

Well, I ran across these groups because I wrote a book about evangelicalism and the role of evangelicals in particularly right-wing politics, including my own background in the evangelical world. I'm just curious about how these ideas move in and out of different groups and how religious ideas inform political and ideological positions. I'd run across the idea of abortion abolitionism in the course of some of that work and also just covering the abortion issue. But the thing that interests me about abortion abolitionists, Ayesha, is that they are articulating some of the fundamental beliefs that I think they actually share with the more recognizable groups. The idea that life begins at conception, at the moment of fertilization. That's something you will hear from across the spectrum of people who work to oppose abortion rights. Many abortion rights opponents will also use slogans like abortion is murder, as something you'll see on signs at protests and rallies, for example.

They are articulating the ideas and the beliefs about life beginning at conception, but they're taking it to a conclusion that's a bit further than these other mainstream groups.

Right. Where these two movements seem to differ is less on their fundamental philosophy about life and pregnancy. It's more so in the application of these underlying ideas about the morality of abortion and other types of reproductive health care and how they would like to take laws restricting access to these procedures. Certainly quite a bit further than what most Republican elected officials would advocate for. One of the things I was really curious about was their explicit opposition to IVF.

That issue of their opposition to IVF, that got a lot of attention after the Alabama Supreme Court issued a ruling giving embryos the same rights as children under the law. Ivf clinics temporarily shut down before state lawmakers passed this legislative fix. But that was a big issue.

Right. A really big issue for Republicans. As I think you remember, many Republicans supported abortion bans and then scramble to express their support for IVF. That's because IVF is very popular with the public. Abortion access, particularly in cases of rape, incest, medical complications, and early in pregnancy, is also quite popular. But IVF is even more popular, including including with the majority of Republican voters. Now, former President Trump, who, as we mentioned, appears to be trying to adjust his position on abortion over concerns about backlash from voters to the overturning of Roe v Wade, has said that he would support government-mandated funding for IVF or a requirement that insurance companies should cover it.

But as you said, these abortion abolitionists, they want to ban IVF, right?

Yeah. At a time when many Republicans are trying to soften their image on these issues, these activists want both abortion and IVF banned across the country, and they want patients and doctors to be charged with homicide, with murder. I went to Texas. This is a state where abortion is almost completely illegal. It's also one of the places where abortion abolitionists have been the most active.

When we come back, Sarah talks to abortion abolitionists outside of an IVF clinic in Texas.

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Outside a medical clinic in Bedford, Texas, the sprinklers have been going off periodically, as a handful of activists shout at the patients going inside. What we do with that knowledge of God is we hold down the truth of God in unrighteousness. These protests might sound like what you'd hear outside many abortion clinics around the country, but this is the Center for Assisted Reproduction, a fertility clinic where many people trying to have a baby go for IVF and other fertility procedures. Even as the sprinklers douse some of the protesters with water, they continue on under the Texas Sun. And so today, my friend, become a disciple of Christ. Among the abolitionist activists are a young married couple, Will and Abby Dietrich. They see both abortion and some of the fertility treatments that happen inside this clinic as morally wrong, because as I mentioned earlier, embryos are often destroyed in the IVF process. And on this day in early July, they're confronting an aspiring father who's been waiting outside the fertility clinic during his wife's appointment. Will Dietrich asked the man to defend the morality of fertility treatments like in vitro fertilization, according to his religion. I wanted to ask you something.

You said you're a Hindu, right? Yeah. Yeah. In the Hindu religion, isn't it true that everything has a soul, ants, grasshoppers, pretty much everything? Yeah. If all beings have souls, how could you justify going in here when this is a living human being as an embryo? Even within your own worldview, I was just curious, how do you justify doing what you're doing as a Hindu? After some back and forth, Abby, who herself is visibly pregnant, weighs in.

The embryo is a baby. In the womb, my baby right here is a baby right now. They readily say that it begins a conception. It would be wrong for me to kill this baby, just like it's wrong for you to murder your babies that are in the freezer and for you to not implant the babies that you have in the freezer, sir.

Throughout the argument, which lasts about 15 minutes before it eventually peters out, Abby keeps repeating this sentence, I just want you to be consistent with your worldview.

Do you see how inconsistent that is with your worldview?

Abby's own worldview is what has driven her to be here today, a view in which an embryo has the same moral significance as a born child. She tells the man that if he and his wife end up with extra embryos through IVF, she's willing to carry them.

Instead of letting them throw them away, I'm saying, I'm here and we'll adopt them. Yeah, that's a goal of ours in our life.

That is. That's the goal.

We just keep having our own babies first by the Lord's providence.

On the day I met them this summer, Will was 30, and Abby was 22. Is this your first baby that you're working on?

Number three. Number three.

So far, they've been having children the old-fashioned way. I pull Abby and Will aside to ask them more about how they became involved with the abortion abolitionist movement. Abby said she grew up as a pastor's daughter, and she met Will while they were both street witnessing, trying to convert strangers to Christianity in the nearby city of Denton, Texas, when she was a senior in high school.

Then I met Will and I was like, Okay, well, we're just going to get married and have kids now, and I'm happy with that. That's what I wanted out of life. That was my goal.

They're united by their belief in creating a society that aligns with their vision of God's will.

The Christians need to be helping implement laws in the government to help them implement God's law on society, if that makes sense. We have lots of Christian abolitionists who are also running for office because they also believe that God's law should be on society, and the church needs to step up.

Farther down the sidewalk, another activist, Christine Harhoff, is holding a megaphone, hoping to catch the ear of some of the other patients seeking fertility treatments.

We're standing here outside of the Care Fertility Clinic, exposing the Deeds of darkness. This is a house of death.

Christine, who also lives in Texas, drove several hours to attend this protest.

And so we're calling upon the parents to and encouraging them, if they have children inside of the freezers here, to go inside and get their babies out. The Bible says to rescue those headed for death, such as those in the freezers. So sometimes traffic slows down and there's nobody to speak to. We're not out here to be annoying to the neighbors, but I am out here to stir up a fuss.

What do you hope that this accomplishes, standing here and yelling at people.

I'm not yelling at people. I use an amp just to elevate my voice above traffic. My point out here is not to yell at people so much as to oppose something that I think is a great wickedness.

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I spent a couple of days with Christine, talking with her at the protest, and as she went door to door handing out flyers in the Dallas area. I also sat down with her for an interview. Christine says the Supreme Court decision overturning Roe v Wade fell far short of her hopes. Even with nearly all abortions now banned in Texas, she says people are still getting abortion pills through the mail or picking them up in other states where Democratic officials have worked to protect access to them.

The Democrats are simply coaching the woman in Texas into aborting at home via the pills.

And that, she says, is why she's advocating for tougher laws, laws equating abortion with homicide and targeting patients who have them with prosecution. Eventually, our conversation turns to emergency medical situations like ectopic pregnancies, where the pregnancy develops within the fallopian tube instead of the uterus, a condition that can damage a woman's future fertility or in some cases be fatal. Christine says she wouldn't support terminating those pregnancies either, although she thinks doctors should try to save the pregnant woman.

I don't think that it's ethical to go in and outright murder the child. The Bible talks about favoritism, and favoritism being sin. We don't favor the mother's life over the babies.

A lot of people hear that and they say, That is treating a born, fully developed woman, a woman who has relationships, who has feelings, who may have children who depend on her, who has people who love her, who has wants, needs, and desires, a fully developed woman, versus a fetus or an embryo, which is not at that stage of development. It's treating her like a vessel, like an object.

By all means, we have compassion. We're not meaning to be out here saying we don't have compassion for the parents going through this or that we don't have compassion for a woman in an ectopic situation. We've all had friends and family members who have gone through something like that, and it's hard. It's rough. We would pray for them. We would try to help care for them and comfort them, but still encourage them. Even if that mother were to die. There's nothing unethical and everything very noble and heroic about a mother who would lay down her life for her child. Too often in modern society, we ask our children to lay down their lives for us. That's what we usually see at abortion clinics and even here at the IVF Center.

Christine is in her late 40s and has eight children. She says she used to describe herself as pro-life, but now she feels that position doesn't go far enough. It's a conclusion she says she reached, partly by spending time outside abortion clinics, trying to persuade women not to go inside. She said she used to think, as many anti-abortion activists argue, that women have abortions because they don't fully understand what they're doing.

What we found was completely the opposite, that these women did know, almost across the board, that it was a baby, and yet they were still choosing to do it anyway, despite our signs that said, We'll adopt your baby. They were still making that conscious decision to go forward knowingly and willfully into that abortion. That was a real surprise to us with that pro-life mindset way back then when we were getting started. But as we continued to reach out to the mothers, a lot of our mentality that we had had shifted over to what we now have termed the abolition mindset, of thinking of it more as a sin issue, a sin issue that needs both the gospel and needs Godly legislation to restrain the mother's sin.

That's why Christine says she believes abortion must be treated as murder, with consequences up to and including the death penalty, though she says it would only be appropriate in some cases where women are fully conscious of their actions. She says everyone, including men involved in helping women get abortions, should be held accountable.

If they were man enough to create that child, they should be man enough to take care of that little one.

Christine says men who fail to take responsibility for their actions are often part of the problem.

I often tell them from the sidewalk, it shouldn't take a little homeschool mom from Texas pleading for your baby. Man up. Do what men do. Protect your kid. Protect your child. Provide for your child.

Her advice for some of the men who say they worry about cost of having a child, sell your gaming equipment.

You can't pay for the birth. Go get rid of the games, dude. Man up. It's time to grow up. Be the dad that you were created to be.

Inside the fertility clinic in Bedford, Dr. Cathy Doody says even though IVF is still legal here in Texas and across the country, these protests are having an impact on her patients. She remembers one woman who had become pregnant through IVF only to miscarry.

And in the exam room, she was sobbing. She said, Dr. Cathy, don't they understand? I want to be a mom. I want nothing more in my life than to be a mother. Why are they doing this to me? She said they were yelling at her as she was walking in the door. I mean, I felt really sad. I had miscarriages myself, and all I could do was hug her. I said, It's okay. We're going to get beyond this.

Doody says she respects people's right to protest.

But this? I don't know. I wouldn't do that to someone else. I would wager not one of them would like to be walking into a doctor's office for a private appointment and for whatever reason. A group on the Street doesn't think what your appointment is for is correct. I don't think they would enjoy getting yelled at.

All of these women, Abby and Christine, and the patients in Dr. Doody's clinic, place a high value on motherhood. But for Abby and Christine, an embryo is just as valuable as a woman.

So Sarah IVF remains legal all over the country. Abortion is mostly illegal in Texas, but the penalties don't explicitly target patients themselves. So how much of an impact are these abolitionists actually having?

They've been making some headway in Southern and Midwest state legislatures with getting sympathetic Democratic state lawmakers elected. They've been particularly involved in the Texas Republican Party, and they're forcing a conversation about how to apply some of these basic ideas, like the idea that life begins at conception, to public policy.

Okay, so when it comes to public policy, have they had any achievements?

Not a lot so far, but legislation supported by abolitionists has been introduced in more than a dozen states. It usually hasn't gone very far, but one exception is Louisiana, where a couple of years ago, a bill that would have equated abortion with homicide and defined personhood as starting at the moment of fertilization made it out of a state house committee.

What was the response to this bill? Was there a backlash?

There was a lot of pushback, including from major anti-abortion groups like Louisiana Right to Life, who said women who have abortions shouldn't be treated as criminals. The bill did not make it into law, but the abolitionist movement saw getting it out of committee as a victory, and they continue to try to elect like-minded state lawmakers in legislatures around the country. For example, in Iowa, Republican State Representative Zack Deacon identifies as an abolitionist. He spoke at the Abortion Abolitionist Conference I attended in Charlotte earlier this year. God's word is consistent. You can't go and be elected official and vote for things God hates and expect him to honor your government. As we mentioned, this movement also has been quite active in Texas. The state Republican Party platform there includes some abolitionist language, such as a clause urging lawmakers to pass legislation, Immediately securing the right to life and equal protection of the laws to all preborn children from the moment of fertilization.

I want to ask you about the language that this movement uses. Obviously, the term abolition. It brings up memories of the anti-slavery movement, slavery abolitionists. Is that their strategy to reference the anti-slavery movement?

Yes, they are quite intentional and explicit about that. At that conference in Charlotte, there were long lectures about the history of the anti-slavery movement and with leaders trying to make an explicit comparison between that movement and their own. They're trying to cast themselves as inheritors of that tradition and portraying themselves as being not on the fringes, but on the front lines of morality. I talked about this with Peggy Cooper-Davis, a law professor at the NYU School of Law. Her work has focused on the history of civil rights, including reproductive rights and the anti-slavery movement. She says associating the anti-abortion movement with the anti-slavery movement is just not appropriate.

The lack of autonomy with respect to reproductive rights in slavery was one of its most horrible features. Having autonomy with respect to reproductive process is a basic human right. Freedom with respect to family and reproduction are core issues in anti-slavery. The idea that one could police the reproductive process in the name of anti-slavery is obscene.

Is this movement racially diverse?

In my observation, no, not particularly. The activists I've met, the leadership of the movement, and the couple hundred people at the conference I attended are almost entirely white Christians. But by using this rhetoric, abortion abolitionists are trying to say something about what they see as the gravity of this issue. They see it as something where there can be no compromise, even where the rest of the anti-abortion rights movement, and certainly, Republican leaders like Trump, are signaling a willingness to accept some compromise, at least for right now in an election year.

Sarah, what are you seeing in this movement going forward?

I think it's worth watching this movement, even though they haven't had a lot of legislative success so far, because in the last decade or so, we've seen what seemed like marginal ideas become mainstream. There was a time, for example, when people wouldn't have imagined Roe v Wade being overturned anytime soon. Then it was at what to many felt like a very rapid pace. Now the door has been open to all kinds of restrictions, not only on abortion, but potentially other types of reproductive health care. There are real questions about where those laws will go from here, especially in states with large Republican majorities, where lawmakers may not call themselves abortion abolitionists, but may be sympathetic to their larger goals.

Thank you so much, Sarah, for your reporting. I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

This episode of the Sunday Story was produced by Justine Yann. It was edited by Jenny Schmidt and Megan Pratz. Gilly Moon mastered the episode. Thanks to Tony Caven and Micah Ratner, the Sunday Story team includes Andrew Mambo and our Senior Supervising Producer, Lianna Simstrom. Irene Naguchi is our executive producer. I'm Ayesha Rosco. Up first is back tomorrow with all the news you need to start your week. Until then, have a great rest of your weekend.

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