Transcript of #676 - Billy Strings

Today's guest is a 3-time Grammy Award-winning musician and songwriter. His new album, So Much for Goodbyes, is out August 28th, and he's on tour the rest of the year. You got to go see him if you can. You got to see him live. We filmed this up in Grand Rapids, Michigan at Mackinac Harvest Studios. Uh, we want to thank Michael and his team over there for the hospitality. It was second to none. And so was this conversation. This is one of my favorite, one of my favorite chats ever. So grateful for his time. Today's guest is Mr. Billy Strings. Dude, good to see you, man.

Yeah, you too.

It's awesome, bro.

Yeah, thanks for coming through the old stomping grounds, man.

This is it, Grand Rapids.

Yeah, glad to have you in Michigan. I grew up like, I don't know, half hour, 40 minutes away from here over in Ionia and Muir. But yeah, Grand Rapids, we used to come over here a bunch when I was a teenager and party, and it's a good, good city.

Would you guys come like on a, like a Saturday night? Would like your proms be here? Like, was it like that kind of place, or was it like Was this like going to the city?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I never went to prom. Um, you didn't? No, I, I actually didn't want to. Yeah, yeah. I don't know, were you like one of the kind of like anti—

like, like, because there is something about prom that's kind of like establishment, I think, especially when you're in high school, kind of.

Yeah, yeah, it just wasn't my vibe. And I had a girlfriend at the time, I really pissed her off that I didn't want to go. I think she ended up going with like Dylan Youngstrom or something.

Nuh-uh. Yeah, Dylan freaking Youngstrom. Yeah, what the heck, dude? Either way, bro, I was in band with him, dude. He couldn't even make first chair.

I know.

Yeah, fuck, that's crazy, dude.

Yeah, she was pissed, but understandably so. I was like, what kind of— like, what an asshole thing. Like, nah, I'm not gonna go. Later on, I'm like, man, I was a real dick, you know.

But what was the reasoning behind it? You don't seem like a guy that doesn't have like reasoning kind of behind it.

It's prom, I just don't want to go dress up and I don't really dance and what, they're not going to be playing good music anyways. And yeah, I don't know, yeah, it's kind of like seemed like not my scene, you know.

Yeah, I think it's hard to go from kind of like picking like to the window to the wall, you know. To the sweat comes off the balls. Yeah, yeah, that's kind of— it's kind of crazy that that's the music that we like feed to the kids. Like, from the window to the wall to the sweat comes off the balls or whatever.

I remember that was always on like Need for Speed back in the day, the video game. And yeah, it's crazy how nostalgic that music is now. Like all that, like Rick Ross and Young Jeezy and stuff like that. It's like you hear that and it brings you right back to like those parties.

Oh yeah, dude. Yeah, there was just something about like, oh, those young parties, dude. When you would show up at a party, bro, and like somebody had like a fence on the side of the house, you would open the fence and go back into the party or go into the house party. And somebody's just— parents were unfortunately out of town. Like all they'd done is like driven to see your mom's sister like two towns over, and they had no idea that their insurance was at risk.

Yeah, around here, I mean, I think everywhere kids are partying, but around here it's— there's nothing better to do, you know? Yeah. So yeah, we always just— it's all— that's all that life was about is like, where's the party at? Yeah, dude.

And then just some nights you would just drive around and look for a party and for like 4 hours, and people would just make up parties, dude. I, I would always make up parties of it. Dude, there's a party, it's like 7 miles out that way, and people would fucking drive out there. And we would just sit there like, yarn and things or whatever, like in the parking lot, and just die laughing, just knowing that like everybody was headed out to some invisible fiesta.

Yeah.

Um, man, I missed those, uh, those days though. Like, I look back on it now and everybody like pulls all their cars into a field and burning pallets and just like, you know, somebody's got a keg. And it like, around here, it always ended up in a fight at the end of the night. It would be like Once people got drunk enough and then somebody finally would— it would pop off and then it would like the whole place would just erupt and everybody would be fighting. Yeah, that happened all the time.

Oh yeah, dude, things have to end either like in a fight or dessert. I feel like, like, that's kind of the American way, dude. Our shit was somebody would always— some fucking— some little like summer school junkie would throw a, like, a WD-40 bottle into the fire.

Oh yeah, that's a good move.

And then it would just be— it would be like 30 seconds of, like, Vietnam. It would be like— it would be like watching Hacksaw Ridge, like, really fast, you know? Um, and that was always— that was always kind of how it went. Did you guys have some people in town? Did you guys have any, like, characters in town that were, like, sort of, like, um like local celebrities in the sense like that was like the guy in town that was like this thing or something?

Yeah, a lot of those different cats, and for different reasons, you know. One of my dear friends, uh, Darren Page, he's no longer with us, but he was like super popular, you know, um, good-looking dude. I think he was like on the football team and everything, and everybody loved him, you know. And he got into like drugs and shit, and it sort of drug them down. It was weird to see because like, you know, it was kind of like the kids that were from a more stable family maybe would go down the wrong path and they wouldn't necessarily know how to handle it. Where I come from, like a family that was like full of drugs, and I've always been real careful, you know, because I saw it. But I think kids that were more like sheltered or something, sometimes those are the kids that would like end up overdosing or, you you know, going to prison or just taking it way too far.

Yeah, yeah, they get loose. It's like suddenly like they have no cookies and suddenly they just wander in the damn, you know, yeah, they just wander like into Keebler's tree or whatever, you know, and they're just in there gooning, bro.

Yeah, and then there was, uh, folks that were, you know, famous for other reasons. There was this guy, one of my best friends ever, he's also dead, um, from an overdose, Kevin Clayton. One of the craziest motherfuckers I've ever known in my life, dude. Just absolutely nuts and, uh, hilarious. And would—

what, like, how was he funny?

Just, he was fun. He was just funny, man. He was always like, you know, just trying to get high. And he would go to like jail or something and get out and go back to the same old shit. And he like You know, he's just a fun person to party with. He was nuts. Yeah, he was always like, come on, bro, get— let me get $50, I want to go boot a coot, you know. And he was like one of the first people I ever smoked with and stuff. And, uh, boot a coot? Yeah, that means like bang an oxy.

Oh dang, I thought it meant go down on somebody.

Come on, bro, let me get $50, I want to boot a coot. And, uh, he's fucking nuts, dude. One time we were at, uh, over at my mom's house, and it was when that game Skate had just came out on Xbox, the first Skate. And I was just like me and Kevin and my brother and another friend of mine. And, uh, I wasn't drinking. I was just— I didn't feel like it that night. I was just hanging out. I just wanted to play my video game. And so I got this brand new Xbox, and I'm sitting there playing, and, um, fucking Kevin and my brother, they got this— for some reason they had a Mountain Dew bottle full of Southern Comfort and like a bunch of other shit, but they were drinking this full 2-liter of fucking SoCo. Don't ask me why it was in the 2-liter bottle, but it was. And then, uh, so as the night went on, they got more and more hammered, and Kevin come up to me, and I'm sitting on the couch, and he put his arm around my neck, and he kind of put me in a headlock and I was like, dude, stop.

Like, I'm not in the mood, you know?

Yeah, I hate it when people do that. Yeah, sometimes I don't, like if it's around the holidays or something and we're gonna get something afterwards, but if they're just doing it for no reason, I don't like it. Anyway, go on.

But yeah, he was all drunk and, you know, uh, he put me in a headlock like this and I'm like, dude, stop, you know, I'm not in the mood. And he fucking squeezed harder, so I'm like, dude, stop. And, and then I'm like, fuck it, I just start hitting him and I'm hitting him like this and And we kind of break up, and then, uh, like, I'm sitting there on the couch and he kind of tries to go at me, and my brother is like right there. He's like, that's my little brother, you're not gonna fuck with him. And Kevin tries to get up off the couch. Every time Kevin got up, my brother grabbed him by the face and sat him back down. So then Kevin swung at my brother, and, uh, they started fighting, and they, they were going from one end of the house to the other, and I was moving furniture and everything. I was like, you know, because they're gonna tear my mom's house up.

Oh yeah, yeah, dude, when a bad fight happened, you to get the shift robe out of there. Yeah, that's the first one. You better move that dinner table.

All that.

And then they'd go— I'd move that, and then they'd go to another room. Anyways, they knocked my Xbox clean over. Those little AV cables stuck right in the TV and broke off. And, you know, I'm like, damn it, I can't play my game anymore. So they ended up— Kevin ended up on top of my brother like this and just hitting him. And I watched my brother's eyes close and his head just started— I'm like, dude, he's done. I'm like, he's done, he's knocked out. And he kept hitting him. And so I just picked up this full 22-ounce Steel Reserve and I hit Kevin in the head and I knocked him and the bottle didn't break, it just went thump. And then he's going, mm, mm. And then they're both sitting there, laying there knocked out on top of each other. And my brother woke up and he said, what'd you do? You killed him. And then Did you think you killed him?

I don't know.

I heard him. He was snoring and grunting. And then, uh, yeah. And then so my brother woke up. He's like, you fucking killed him. And, uh, and I'm like, dude, this is crazy. And, and then Kevin woke up and he's all disoriented and he's like, he's like, what the fuck? He's like, what the fuck was I doing? And then he sees my brother and he's like, I was kicking your ass. And they just went right back at it, dude. I got the hell out of there. I was like, fuck, you guys can fucking kill each other. I don't care. So One of my friends picked me up. We went down to, uh, over to my friend Benji's house or whatever. But then Kevin, he fucking left my house, uh, that night from my mom's place in Muir all the way to his place out on like Stage Road or something, uh, or Nickel Plate. I can't remember, but it was a long-ass walk, 7 miles in the blizzard. And he fucking— he walked all the way there in one of his shoes and one of my brother's shoes. And then, uh, and he called me.

I, you know, I got to where I was and I went to sleep. And then 5 o'clock in the morning, I got a call from Kevin. And then he just says— I'm like, fuck, answer it. It was his dad's home phone.

Hello?

And he just says, wait until I find you, you little bitch. I'm going to beat your head into oblivion. And he hung up like, goddamn it, now Kevin's going to beat me up. And then the next—

he holds a grudge, huh?

Yeah, he was nuts, dude. And then the next morning he called me and said, bro, I'm sorry, let's go skate. And then I met him down at the skate spot and he had a big old fucking goose egg like that sticking off his bald ass head because he just had his head shaved because he just went to boot camp.

Oh, and everything is like— was it big? Like, like sometimes people get hit in the head and then it looks like they're like growing another head.

It was like a cartoon shit. It was like a, you know, big-ass fucking goose egg right there, you know, like one of them, uh, I don't know, on Looney Tunes or something.

Oh yeah, dude, or like that power slap. You ever seen that power slap thing?

Oh my, why do people do that, dude?

Dude, I don't know.

Have you been to one?

Oh yeah, I've been there, dude. I've been there. It's, it's like, it's— I mean, to me that just seems so Like, dude, the craziest part of it to me— well, first of all, one time this guy had this big, uh, like he'd almost like sprouted another head, kind of like, like he was looking like he was gonna be on Abby and Brittany, you know, or like some, like, you know, like a conjoined twins TLC type of thing, you know. And then somebody— and then he— yeah, it looked like he was like sprouting another head, and somebody had drawn another face on this big thing that was growing up. So that was pretty dope. Dude, one time I saw a guy after the fights, he was in the carpool line. I'm like, dude, you just— you were just like slapping, like, like, I don't know if you're safe to just get into it, into an Uber or whatever, you know. It was bananas, dude. But those people really love it. I think the thing about it is like, this one thing I learned about some sports, we may look at it like it seems insane, but it's just if somebody likes it Yeah, there's that new one where it's like people from Tonga or whatever, or people from Hawaii are just running at each other and hitting and like running right into each other.

Have you seen that one, dude? You know what I'm talking about, Trevin? Yeah, it's just like, it's kind of like speed dating, I guess.

Well, it's like, it's like, well, it kind of reminds me of like jousting, I guess, right? Yeah, I mean, new sport unlocked.

Yeah, this is what it is.

Oh my God, he's like Ram Man from Masters of the Universe.

Yeah, yeah. Oh dude, this is the sport.

I mean, that's like them rams, them big goats when they headbutt each other. Yeah, that's what these boys are doing.

And it's like, bro, and they have women doing it too. But this is just what I started to realize was like to the competitors, it's a sport. So it's like, that's where I kind of started to meet sports. It's like some things I'm like, ah, because at first for UFC I was like, some of this I don't know if I like, but now it's my favorite because I realize those people, they just— it's their thing.

Well, yeah, I mean, and I feel like there's at least, uh, you can defend yourself. You're not just sitting there being like, okay, hit me as hard as you can, getting like brain injuries, you know. Or what's that, like CTE or whatever?

Yeah, CTE. Everybody's got it, I guess, or some people have it. Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, no, I mean, I like UFC. I, um, I think it's just, it's a, it's like an ancient— I mean, combat is, and you know, nature's violent, I think. And it's like hand-to-hand combat is like one of the oldest things there is. It's the most like, you know, kind of like natural thing you can do. So it's sometimes, even though You know, I'm not like all about violence or whatever, but I'm just saying like, no, it's human, it's a great sport, you know, it's kind of like, yeah, what's, what's more sport than two men like, you know, or women, or just two people like going after each other and trying to kick each other's ass, you know?

Yeah, it says here wrestling is generally considered the oldest hand-to-hand combat sport. Grappling is a near-universal human practice and predates written history. The earliest surviving depictions of organized wrestling date to ancient Egypt around 2000.

I reckon it's sort of like them gladiators or something, you know. Oh yeah, bro, like a modern-day version of that.

Yeah, dude.

And then, you know, it's not always— I mean, these people get hurt, and sometimes, you know, there's crazy bloody brawls like, you know, Forrest Griffin, Stephan Bonnar kind of fights. But then there's like— I saw you at the at the Paddy fight on TV. They showed you a little bit. I was watching that.

Oh, you were?

Yeah, you like choked that guy out in like minutes. Everybody's okay. Yeah, you know.

Yeah, that was quick. That was just like Kevin Clayton trying to do it to you on that couch, man. We've all got our own, like, you know what I'm saying? We all have like our own moment of attachment to little things, dude. Um, but no, dude, the craziest thing about the Paddy thing was, so usually the fighters come into the ring, they have about a 1-minute intro, like probably a 30-second walk and then there's like 30 seconds by the cage where they're checking them to make sure that they don't have any knives or whatever, and then they let them go in. Yeah, but for Paddy, they had to go— I believe anyway, they had to go to a commercial break for Paramount. So he just had like 3 minutes in the ring with his music.

Yeah.

And they— I'd never seen that before. So he just starts like just doing the, uh, he's got the whole place doing the Baddie Daddy.

Yeah.

And, uh, and the place just— it turned into like kind of a rave. It's like, oh yeah, that was the energy it needed. So by the time his fight started, In a way, I think even if you were a fan of Benoit Saint-Denis, you were suddenly a Paddy fan just because you've been doing his moves.

Yeah, he's vibing. Also, man, that's so dope. That is such a— what a, what a host. Like, to just be in that sort of mindset before, like, you know you're gonna— yeah, fight. Just to be like dancing and happy and hyped. Like, you know, back when I was in high school or whatever and I was getting into fights it was always a lot better if it just popped off all of a sudden and I wasn't expecting it. The couple times where I was like, okay, meet me down here, and we're driving down there and I know I'm gonna get in a fight soon, that was like the worst. Like the adrenaline and just— it was like, you know, it's like terrifying. Yeah, because you know you're gonna get into it soon.

And yeah, you're building up, it's all this extra energy, and then you're like, you— yeah, people are giving you strategy or whatever.

Goes away once you get hit in the face.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dude, some guy in a wheelchair kept giving me strategy at a fight and I'm like, that's fine, dude. But it's like, you know what I'm saying? I'm happy to listen to you, but now it's just like, it was just too much at that moment. I was just like, God, this seems like not the best omen.

You know, my brother, dude, I was watching a fight with him. Who's that guy? Oh, I don't, I shouldn't say this. He'll kick my ass. Yeah, I don't know.

We cannot say it.

My brother said it like that Khamzat guy or whatever.

Oh, Khamzat Chimaev?

Yeah.

Yeah, I was watching a fight with him and my brother's like, that motherfucker looks like the Nutcracker.

I was like, holy shit, dude, bring it up.

That's pretty badass.

Oh wait, you know, I think it's Islam maybe looks a little— let me see. Oh, he— I think he has a Nutcracker type of beard. Yeah, Sean Strickland will protect us, dude, if things get bad. But he does— that is kind of a Nutcracker type of beard. Um, dude, you were talking about, uh, you were talking about Uh, oh, what happened to Kevin Clayton?

Uh, he OD'd. He, he was a, you know, he struggled a lot with, with substance abuse. He, he was into heroin and all sorts of shit, man. Around that time, it was like, you know, meth was really kind of tearing everything up. There was a big epidemic, really. And then that OxyContin too. Everybody was robbing each other's grandmas and shit, and you know, their own family members and stuff just to get them pills. And, and, uh, yeah, Kevin, he got into that stuff real bad. And I remember he was texting me too and, and sending me messages online rather, and saying, man, I— he knew it was coming. He was like, I'm losing control. And I was like, bro, you gotta— you're the only one that can put your hands on the wheel and steer yourself out of this, you know. And he's like, I can't, you know. And not much Longer after that, I heard that he OD'd. He just— his stepmom found him in the bathroom like foaming at the mouth and shit. And it was terrible, man. But he was also, man, he was a great skateboarder. He was just fearless. Um, he would fling himself down these huge stair sets and not give a fuck if he got hurt.

He was, he was just one of the nuttiest people I ever, I ever met. And, um, like, I remember he got out of prison for like a couple years and he grabbed my heart— my, my skateboard and and did like a switch hardflip first try. It's like, you haven't skated in like years and you just did a switch hardflip first try? Like, what? You know, he's just— he's crazy, man. Everybody around Ionia that grew up in those years, like, he's sort of a legend, you know?

Oh yeah, dude, there's something amazing about being like a local legend, dude. Like, we had a white guy that could dance in our area, and people— and you knew his name for like 40 miles, dude. And it was legendary, dude. This guy Wes, I'm not going to say his last name just to protect his anonymity because, uh, but yeah, dude, he was just like, he was a legend. When you were growing up, that's all you want to be. And like, you maybe go to one high school football game and he would come out with the band and he was like the white guy and they gave him like this magic stick, you know, like this like baton. Yeah, yeah, baton, dude. But it was like the king baton. It wasn't like the one that like— there was always that one girl in band who threw it up in the air and she had on like this really thick glasses and you were like That bitch is gonna fuck it, you know what I'm saying? That thing's gonna take somebody's fucking wig off, you know? But, uh, but he, but he had like the biggest baton.

He would come out and he would just take it to another level, bro. And it was like, I don't know, you need heroes like that. You need like local legends. You need like, like, yeah, you need legends like that just to build hype, to be like, I want to be like that, or just create stories in town. That was always the best, dude.

Yeah.

We had, uh, oh, there's all those smoothies. Let's bring them in and we could do a cheers actually to Kevin, man.

Hell yeah, that's the greenest one they had. Oh yeah, thank you.

That's Grand Rapids green, man.

Hell yeah, thanks dude. Yeah, that's good.

To a toast, man. Yeah, to Kevin, bro. Kevin Clayton, bro.

Yep.

Yeah, dude, we had— I'm trying to go— oh, I remember they had a guy in our town who's probably— we were kids, he was probably like 30, and he would ride on— he had a bicycle but it had a baby seat on the back, right? And it was empty, and he was always riding around. And, and later on I found out he was, um, he had like a— he had like some mental irregularities or whatever. But he, um, when we were kids, somebody said that he was, uh, he had married a man and that his husband— he had married a very small man and his husband had passed away. And so he'd ride around like just on this bike with this baby seat on the back, and that's where his husband used to sit. And so we were kids, it was just this lore, and it was like, oh man, that's a gay— like a gay gentleman that lost his husband or whatever. And it was like this kind of like kind of romantic, sad sort of thing. And he would kind of pull up and he'd always be in the distance of like all the ball games and everything.

Whoa.

He'd just be in the distance. He'd be like 40 yards away from everything. In fact, if he had a memoir, I'd call it 40 Yards Away from Everything. Wow. And he would kind of sit over there and people would be like, dude, his husband passed away. Years later, we finally— it was like a kind of like a mentally— like a guy who had like some mental issues or whatever, and his mom had gotten him a bike, and she just got him a bike that still had a baby seat on it. But when you're a kid, you know what I'm saying, there's just like— everything can have a little bit of magic in it, you know? Oh yeah. And like, it's like, it's so exciting.

You ever hear about this guy called Mole Man?

Mole Man.

He's in like Pennsylvania or something.

No, I never seen him. What's he up— you know him?

No, I don't know him. But dude, it's like this cat, he's like lived with his parents and he just has been collecting like, I don't know, stuff forever. And, and, and he's been building these like structures out in his mom's like backyard, like in the— there's like a documentary about him and he's like built these tunnels and like all these like little house structures and stuff, and he just lives out there. And so I don't remember how long— I don't know how long ago the documentary was made, but in the, in the film they were kind of worried about like what was going to happen to this cat when his mom passes away, and is the people— somebody going to take his property, or how's he going to keep doing this?

He's the inheritor.

Yeah, like, man, he's a, he's a wild cat. You ought to watch this film, Mole Man. Mole Man, dude, he's You know, that's a local legend right there around his area for sure. Oh, everybody's got to know about the Mole Man, dude.

Mole Man, let me see another gander at him. Oh hell yeah.

Oh yeah, he kind of has—

he looks like he took a hit off a cigarette forever, you know what I'm saying? Fuck yeah, Mole Man. That would probably be an interesting person maybe to go talk to too.

Yeah dude, you should try to link up with Mole Man and see what see what he's all about. But he's, he's, he's built like several houses and— what, just in the backyard? Like, and he'll just go— say somebody's like tearing down their house, he'll go and grab like some of the windowsills and some of the old drywall and shit, and he'll take it over to his place and he just stacks everything up. I don't even think it's like nailed together. See, it's just, it's just fucking all stacked up.

Yeah, damn, that's just figuring it out.

Yeah, he's I guess ever since he was a little kid, he just like building stuff like that.

It looks like one sneeze would fucking remodel that thing though, you know what I'm saying? Dude, one afternoon of allergies and he's gonna— he's gonna be living in a studio. That's wild looking though. But just like, it almost is like— dude, I was just gonna say, it's almost like a be— it's almost like a beaver, like just collecting things. Like a bird that makes a nest. Dude, when you see some of these bird nests, they go in there and there's like all these little things that the bird has found from around the community that they just put in there.

Like, at my house, out the back window, there's a lot of, uh, like, wildlife. We have this little pond, and so there's ducks and geese, and they're always getting into it, and, uh, groundhogs. And we got this little muskrat that swims across the— he's always got a big piece of grass in his mouth and he swims across the pond. He's cool as hell. But yesterday I was hanging out with my dad playing guitars, and we saw two of them fucking, uh affiliated woodpeckers flying across the, you know, right there. And they went up on this tree and they were both doing that shit. I was like, who are they affiliated with? Oh, they were.

And what does it mean, affiliated?

I don't know.

I think they're probably in like the—

like a duet.

They're like them in the cartel or something, I reckon.

Oh, that could be the damn new Brooks and Dunn, dude. Yeah, that could be Dan and Shay. Who even knows what's going on anymore?

Yeah, and they're just—

wait, do they do that? They come in pairs?

I think it was a male and female.

Oh, a couple.

Yeah.

Oh, she probably wanted to go on vacation or something and he probably didn't want to take her.

Yeah, they were up there getting all them larvae out of them, out of that bark.

Oh, it says right here, yes, Pileated— Pileated woodpeckers mate for life. They form permanent monogamous pair bonds and stay together year-round in fixed home territories. That they def— that they defend from other woodpeckers. If one partner dies, the surviving bird will find a new mate. You can learn more about their habits via the Cornell Lab of Ornithology.

Holy shit. So that's crazy when animals do that shit. I saw something the other day where a fox— it's like something about like if a female fox dies, the— her old man will just like not ever like get another lady.

Huh.

He's like, he's just gonna mourn his babe forever.

That's honorable, huh?

Yeah, but if like the male dies, the chick's just like, ah, fuck him.

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Yeah, drugs, depression. Uh, I mean, it was always like overdose you know, a couple friends that I was close to committed suicide, and then a lot of people were kind of hauled off to prison. So that's where, you know, a lot of the folks that I was friends with and loved and stuff, they— that's like the 3 ways that they would mostly leave. Yeah. Hmm.

Yeah.

Was it— was there a funeral that you remember going to? Like, you remember the first funeral you ever went to?

Yeah, my grandpa's funeral, I think, was the first one, at least that I remember.

Were you like surprised that people died? Like, I remember I went to a funeral for the first time, and even though I had known, like, like we, we knew that my friend's brother had passed away, but when I went to the funeral, I didn't— I don't think I really registered it. Like, and then we went to the funeral and like, um, it was like, oh, and it was just like so—

it was, I don't know. Yeah, I remember thinking it was so much.

It was so much. It always bawling, dude. And I just wanted to like— my tears, like, I was like— it wasn't even my family, but it was just like so crazy to think that like this part of that, that that's part of it.

Yeah.

And I, I remember wanting to be— my tears, my tears were like going into the cracks in the fucking floor. And I was like, God, that's—

I just want to crawl down in there.

It— well, it just feels like it's so like— I don't know, I was just like, it's hard. It hurts already, the fact that you're gonna not have to be here one day. Something about it already hurts.

Yeah.

I think that's how I felt like I was young for sure.

Yeah, it's, it's tough to think about. I mean, nobody, nobody wants that, but it's kind of the only thing you can count on really. Yeah, I remember thinking it was really like, for— it was first time I saw a dead body, I think was my grandpa's. And I remember like, I think my aunt, maybe my grandma and stuff was like you know, kissing him and stuff. And I remember just kind of being like weirded out by that, like, whoa, you know, they're like kissing that dead— my dead grandpa's body.

That was a freak. Yeah, I mean, I would— I'd be like, damn, I didn't know what that was possible. Damn, he must have really had it.

Yeah, no, he was— he was badass, man.

Oh, if somebody's— yeah, I think, yeah, if I'm laying there, I want some of my friends to come up and tickle me or do some little things like that, you know. Maybe sneak a pill under my tongue or something, or give me one hit of LSD at that point. Yeah, because if I die sober, man, then I'll— that's what I want. And I don't know if that's crazy to announce, whatever, but yeah, if you come— if you come to my funeral, you're welcome to slide a little hit of la sud under me, you know?

Yeah, help you with, you know, good journey.

Yeah, good luck out there, brother. Yeah, let's make it— hey, make it rip, bro. Um, Dude, you had your— how's your leg? How's the leg going on? I know everybody asks you, so I—

it's great. Um, yeah, I mean, it's, it's healing up pretty good. I've been doing lots of physical therapy and shit. Last time I saw you, I was on crutches. Now I'm just kind of rocking this, this guy.

Hell yeah, that cane, baby! Yeah, Willy Wonka, dude. That bitch is hype. Your wife got you that?

Yeah, because this is the cane that, uh, Lawrence Talbot had on the original 1941 Universal Motion Pictures, The Wolf Man. And Lawrence, uh, Larry Talbot, in the beginning of the film, he's working on his dad's telescope. He just comes back to England or wherever they're at, and he's working on the telescope, and then he, you know, comes over and he sees this girl in her window and she's putting on her earrings and stuff. He's peeping Tomming that shit. Yeah, yeah. And then, uh, so he sees her and then he realizes she works at the antique shop, so he goes over there and he's like trying to talk to her. And then he really doesn't know what he's looking for. She's like, well, what are you looking for? And, uh, he said, well, what I'm really looking for is a walking stick. And he picks this one up. He's like, this one's pretty cool, it's got a dog on it. And she's like, that's a wolf. And, um, so he goes out on a double date with this chick with her friend Jenny, and she sees this fortune teller in the woods that's actually played by Bela Lugosi, who was like the original Dracula.

Oh yeah, bro. And, uh, Lugosi was like that. Yeah, The Wolfman, this is called.

Yeah, man.

And he was a peeping tom.

Lon Chaney. Yeah, hell yeah. Hell yeah, that's how he found his girl. And then, uh, but anyways, that, that fortune teller sees Jenny in the woods, and he's looking at her palm, he's reading her palm, and he sees this symbol, that star with the circle in it. And then he's like, you guys got to dip. Like, you know, because he— that's what happens is the Wolfman sees that symbol in the palm of his next victim. And so then, you know, they skedaddle. And then all of a sudden you start hearing these big howls and shit. And this wolf is attacking Jenny. And Larry beats the shit out of that wolf with this cane because it's got a silver head on it. Silver bullets. You know, silver can kill a wolf, a werewolf. And then he goes home, he gets bit in the process, and he goes home. The, the old lady drops him off, and then, you know, they— the cops show up and he's like, man, you know, the fortune teller was found dead in the woods. And he's like, I'm telling you, I killed a plain old ordinary wolf. And, uh, so yeah, anyways, this is the Larry Talbot Cane.

I'm a big big fan of all those old monster movies. Like, my dad used to watch him with me when I was a kid.

Yeah.

And I just— I was really fascinated with The Wolfman when I was little. Like, I wouldn't go outside if there was a full moon.

Really?

Yeah, because I knew he was out there, dude, just lurking on his tippy toes with them fangs.

Yeah. And, and dude, being scared as a kid, bro, remember how scary it was? When you think of how scary it was when you were scared of something as a kid, dude. The dark, bro.

Yeah, yeah, bro.

Under a bed? Get out of here, bro.

Yeah, monsters in the closet or something. Or you think something's— that some shadows you see. The, um, like when it was nighttime and we were driving in the car with my parents and stuff, and I was looking out the window, we'd be driving past a forest, and I used to call them wolfas trees because I, like, I knew the wolf was out there and like In the movie, he's like looking behind these trees and shit, and they're all like oily black. And like, I just always, whenever I saw like the woods at night, I was just like, I knew the Wolfman was out there. I believed in him.

Oh dude, I remember thinking that like I would have— oh, that's him.

Yeah, that's Lon Chaney Jr.

Damn, he's like that. He looks like he used to play for the Minnesota Vikings a little bit, like my buddy Steve Setzler. He's got that look, bro. I remember we would watch those Jason— we watch Friday the 13th movies with our older brothers, and then our older brothers would just go dip and do some shit and just leave the younger brothers. Oh, like, the craziest thing you can do is watch a scary movie with your younger brother and then just dip, because that kid is fucking scared out of his ankles, bro. I remember me and my friend William just sitting there. We sat back to back, dude. We were so scared, and we stayed up for as long as we could. Yeah, we put every light in the house on except the one in my mom's bedroom, and then we put a towel in front of her door so the light wouldn't go in there. And we had— we were like, we are not losing this plate. Like, oh man, just everything was fucking traumatic, dude. And you'd hear a car go by and you'd be like, that's Freddy Krueger. Yeah, it would always be something that was so intense, bro.

My dad, when I was, uh When I was little, there was one night— because I— he, you know, he's the one that showed me The Wolfman and shit when I was, I don't even know, fucking 5, 6. And, uh, yeah. And so I remember there was one night where I was, I was up in my room and I was playing with toy cars, and I was probably supposed to be asleep, and I probably had, you know, school the next morning or something. But I was in there playing with my toy cars and shit, and my dad had this wolf mask and he went outside and I had a window that went off to the back porch. And he, you know, I'm sitting there playing with my toy cars and I heard a noise and I like looked around and I was like, what the fuck was that? And I'm like, oh, you know, and I went back to playing. And then I heard clearly a scratch on the screen of the window and I looked up, dude, and I saw he was wearing that wolf mask and it fucking— dude, I freaked.

Your dad did that?

Yeah.

He scared the living shit out of me. And I I ran out of my room, like down the hallway. We lived in this little trailer.

Did you know it was him?

No, hell no. I mean, I thought it was a wolf, you know? And, uh, I ran and I ran like I jumped from like the hallway all the way over to my mom who was laying on the couch, and I just landed right on top of her. I was screaming, crying. My dad came in the back door just laughing. He's like, it's a mask, it's a mask, you know? Oh, and I'm just like Dude, I— man, it must have been funny, but why the hell would you do that?

So scary, dude.

He still talks about it, bro.

Yeah, I guess. But I guess, yeah, maybe— look, dude, maybe you're like, I'm gonna scare the shit out of this fucking kid, you know what I'm saying? Who knows what parents think? Because all you have to do is have 2 beers and be like, hey, I think I'm gonna scare my kid. The next thing you know, you're doing it.

Yeah, you know, or maybe it's like, he's supposed to be in bed, but he's in there playing with his toy cars. I'm gonna go, you know Oh dude, yeah, but dude, he just scratched on that, that metal screen and I'm like, I heard it the first time and I was like, what the fuck was that? And then second time and he like moved into the light with that mask, dude. I was so terrified.

God, dude. Yeah, yeah, dude, they, we had, uh, we called it, they called it like haunt. People would go haunting in our area and it was like, that was like peeping toms. They had a lot of peeping toms in our area, so you'd see people out there almost on the circuit or whatever, like people would like hit like It was just like a lot of peeping toms, you know. They busted a lot of dudes in our area. They had a lot of pedophiles in our area because they used to have this, this law where if you was a pedophile, um, and you might— I don't know if you believe in them or not. I believe in them.

Believe in what?

Pedophiles?

Yeah, like, do I believe they're real? Yeah, yeah, I'm pretty sure they're real.

Okay, all right, same.

Unfortunately, same.

Yeah, but the problem was, dude, uh they would have to come to your door. They had a law, if they moved into the neighborhood, they had to come to your door. But all of our moms worked in our neighborhood, like, you know what I'm saying? Like, a lot of it was a lot of single-parent families, and the moms worked. So you'd have a pedophile would come to the door, he'd like have to let you guys know, I'm a pedophile.

Oh yeah.

And it would just be us kids answering the door. Like, it was the worst.

Oh shit.

It was the worst idea, man, that they'd ever come up with, dude. Because we— I remember 3 different pedophiles, or p-files people call them, because if they're in a hurry or whatever.

But I remember 3 different p-files would and be like, hey, I'm a—

I've just had to let you know that I'm registered and that I'm in the, in the neighborhood. And we're like— and we'd just be standing there, dude, just kids.

Well, I reckon that was like, you know, probably the early days of the internet and stuff, and long before that like database.

Oh, for sure. This was just when—

yeah, so that's what they had to do is they had to go kind of out themselves.

Yeah, well, they had to organize them because before that they were just working freelance or whatever, I guess, you know, before they, you know, had them all registered up. But, um, anyway, let's change the subject. Uh Yeah, dude, so what happened? Take me through the— uh, take me through a little bit of the, of the injury. So are you— is it better now, would you say?

Uh, yeah, it's definitely getting there. I mean, it's, it's stiff and it hurts a little bit, but yeah, I was just— man, I, I grew up skateboarding and it's always been one of my major loves out, you know, outside of music. And, um, I think, you know, the last little bit I've been playing a lot more music than skating Uh, but I was on tour and I was skating a fair amount. I remember we went through Tampa and I went through the Skatepark of Tampa there.

Dude, I've been there. Yeah, that indoor building. Yeah, bro, that place— bring that place up. Yeah, what's it called?

Skatepark of Tampa.

Dude, this was one of the neatest things, bro. Thank you so much for reminding me about that today. They let us just come and watch one day and watch all the guys skating.

Yeah, yeah, they have a big contest every year, Tampa Pro. And when I went this last time, all the pros were there warming up and shit. Yeah, it was gnarly. It was cool to go see him skate, but I was skating and, you know, I don't know. And like in these arenas that we play, I mean, you know, it's like you get to the back door sometimes, like just the walk to the green room is like a far-ass walk, right?

Oh yeah, dude, sometimes you have to stop and even get a snack.

Yeah. So I had been using my skate— like, I would get off the bus and I would just bring my skateboard and I would, like, slap down. Also, the concrete's always so smooth in there.

Yeah, it is pretty slick. And a lot of the concrete in those places is kind of slick. Yeah.

So it's really nice on a skateboard. Super smooth. So I could just, like, push twice and, like, be all the way around the whole arena and, like, you know, into my green room or whatever. But I, you know, I'd been skating a bunch. Uh, and we finished this show in, uh, Charlottesville. I think it's the John Paul Jones Arena.

And dude, that's a great spot.

Yeah, I've been there. Yeah, so we finished there.

That town is great. Yeah, that's where UVA is.

Yeah. And yeah, I was lucky that I broke my leg there. They had a great, um, medical team there, you know, like that The hospitals are great there.

And, uh, oh yeah, you break that bitch up in Syracuse or something, they'll just wish that bitch was better, you know? Yeah, I mean, I can get kind of risqué.

It was crazy. So like, I mean, it was really weird. I was all excited after my gig. We just finished the last song. It was this big Hide and Seek jam, and we just spanked the crowd. And, uh, and I was all excited. I had all this adrenaline from the show and I— my board was sitting there. We walked off stage, we're getting ready to do an encore, and so I just grabbed my board. I did like a couple bonelesses, and then, um, I went out just right backstage, and I just kind of flung this back 180. And that's like— it's a go-to trick for me. I've done it millions of times, and I've never broke my leg, you know. And but the thing is, is like, I wasn't like focused, and I wasn't really skating. I was just like flinging tricks, and I wasn't like thinking about it. And so, and it was dark and I had brand new like sticky shoes on. And so it was weird, like I did this back when 80 and I kind of slipped out. And then when I put my foot down, my body kept spinning and I sort of like sat on my foot and my shoes were brand new.

So like there's the bottoms was sticky and it just, when I put my foot down, my toe stayed right where it was and the rest of my body kept moving. So I just heard it snap.

Nah.

Oh, dude. Yeah, I could hear it over the crowd, like screaming. And it was just— I mean, it sounded like a 2x4 snapping in half. And I'm laying on the ground and my guitar tech comes up, Toby. He says, dude, get up. And I'm like, I just broke my leg. And he's like, nah. I'm like, look at it. It's fucking— it's pointed 90 degrees to the left.

Yeah.

And he's like, oh, shit. And so I laid there for a minute and nobody was like moving me or anything. So I'm like, fuck it. I just got up. I Lieutenant Dan my ass out of there. You know, I just scooted on my ass back behind the curtain. They came, they cut my pant leg up.

Could you tell it was broken?

Oh, I knew it was broken immediately. I mean, I heard it. It's like— and the fact that it was like pointed the wrong way, it's like, yeah, my leg is fucking broken.

Did you try to fix it yourself at all?

No, no, I didn't fuck with it. Um, but I, I scooted out of there, and then the, the medic came and he kind of cut my pant leg up and They took me and they put me on this stretcher. And then I called my wife and I'm like, yeah, I just broke my leg. She's like, what? You know, I'm like, I was dicking around on my skateboard, you know, and fucking slipped out and somehow I broke my leg. And all the, like, pros I've talked to and stuff, they're like, even Tony Hawk, Jamie Thomas, all these cats, they're just like, man, that's how it happens is like some stupid little trick. Like, it's always like some dumb thing. But so I'm sitting on the stretcher. And the guy comes up and he's like, we're going to give you some fentanyl. I was like, nah. Like, I was like, no, like, don't you know how far I've come? Yeah. You know, I was like, fentanyl? Like, you know? And he's like, and, you know, one of the guys was like, dude, the roads are pretty bumpy around here. You're going to want that. It's like, all right, fuck it.

So they gave me fentanyl and IV. It like took the edge off, you know?

Yeah.

And at that point I was starting to like go into shock and I started sweating, but I was freezing. And, uh, it started to hurt because it didn't even hurt when it happened. It just— I heard it and I knew it was broken, but I had so much adrenaline, didn't even fucking hurt.

That's wild, dude. Was that a pretty— just that whole experience got to be pretty wild because like adrenaline is just like a crazy drug that God gives you, but you can't just get it whenever you want.

Yeah, it was, it was wild. I mean, I knew my leg was broken. It just— I couldn't even feel it at first. I just— my leg was pointed sideways and I'm like, oh man, it's busted. But it didn't like hurt until that adrenaline started to wear off. And then it was like, oh, and then it kind of started coming. I'm like, oh shit, here it comes. And then they gave me that fentanyl.

They hit you with an IV?

Yeah. And they were doing that and morphine back to back. Um, fentanyl would work better, but it only lasts like 10 minutes, you know.

Damn.

And then the morphine would like last longer, but it didn't help as much. But then, so they got me there and they They gave me a red carpet, man. It was like, you know, we gotta, uh, you got a police escort? Yeah, police escort. You know, they're like, we got a high-profile patient, you know. And so they've— man, they brought me in this back door, they closed off the hallways, there was nobody in there. They wheeled me right into the x-rays immediately. It was fucking cool. And then, uh, did it feel like a movie kind of? Yeah, I mean, it was just nice that I didn't have to sit there with a broken leg in the emergency room forever.

Yeah. Oh yeah, for sure.

And shit.

Oh yeah, getting a little bit of treatment. Yeah, just to not just sit out there and some other guy's coughing on your fucking leg or whatever. Somebody's fucking— yeah, some guy's using you to fucking sleep on your back and shit, bro. Our healthcare system is fucking crazy. It's wild. Just people like, like trying to heal each other like religiously and shit in the lobbies. A lot of these hospitals just gotten crazy. Yeah, people rubbing pepper jack on each other's fucking necks and shit, like, and just people just like thinking up shit they can do because they gotta wait 5 or 6 hours to get in there to even get a fucking hug, you know?

Yeah, totally. So I was lucky to get in there, and they x-rayed it and stuff. And I mean, I can show you the x-rays, they're pretty, pretty gnarly.

When I saw you in Austin, you showed me a picture that was crazy. It looked like they had fucking turned it into a damn violin. Yeah, that was like that one you showed me.

Well, that's— yeah, after they, you know, the surgery and stuff. There's one in there like right after it happened, um before it was even set and splinted, where it looks really fucked.

Um, but yeah, dude, turn it into a violin. Dude, what if you had a violin, dude, and you made it wooden and you put some strings on the side of that bit?

That metal bar in there could work as a whammy bar if I ever get it taken out.

That's what it looks like.

Yeah, but dude, the craziest part about the whole thing was, so I get in there and we get it x-rayed Yeah, that's the one that looks really screwed up. That was before it was set and splinted. So it's what they call a distal tib fib spiral fracture. And it's— it means like it's broken like pretty close to my ankle, which made it worse. If it was broken in the middle of my leg, they could just put a rod down there, screw it, and like it'd be a lot better. But because it was so close to my ankle, it was— it's a bitch of a surgery, like, you know. And so But dude, they, uh, they x-rayed it and they're like, okay, we're gonna have to set it and splint it before— because I don't— I'm not gonna get surgery till the next morning. So they had to get it straight and then, um, and then put a splint on it. And so they needed me to like not be in the room, but they couldn't put me under anesthesia. So what they did is gave me this huge dose of ketamine, and it was insane.

It was like one of the most, like, crazy psychedelic experiences I've ever had. I mean, they dropped me straight into a k-hole.

Really? And take me through some of that. Take me through the k-hole. Was it like— was there a layover or was it just straight there? Was it direct flight? Like, were you getting emails?

Direct flight.

I mean, it was a— it was immediately everything just folded in on itself and, like, language and everything kind of made up all these molecules. And I could still hear the doctors talking a little bit, but they were using now this alien language that I couldn't understand. And I was frozen in this like white space and time, and I went down into this other dimension. It was like when Matthew McConaughey is trying to move the, you know, book on the shelf. It was like I was trapped behind layers of language. And, um, fuck, that's a good description, Billy.

Yeah.

And I was, uh, I was there and I knew I was there, but I just— there was nothing I could do. And it felt like I turned into like computer code or like I felt like I was the microchip inside of an iPod sending signals. But, you know, um, bro, and it, it was, it was wild. I felt very much like an inanimate object. Yes, dude, that's what it felt like, dude.

Yeah, I felt like I was playing hide and go seek, but I just, I never told with myself, but I never told myself that we started the game. Like, I felt like I had fucking I felt like I would never find my shoes again. That's what I felt like. And I also remember feeling like I was something very small that had fallen behind a piece of furniture.

Yeah.

Anyway, sorry, I just had— you were making me— dude, some of those thoughts you just had were freaking bananas.

Yeah, it was like I was stuck in this frozen dimension and I just kind of was like, well, I guess this is life now. I guess this is where I'm at.

It—

this sucks because I think I'm dead, you know? And I just was like, well, shit. And, uh, I was kind of like, well, whatever, I guess I'm just— there was nothing I could do because I was paralyzed in this state.

Yeah, dude, I felt like— you ever see that ball in the back of your throat kind of that's there? Yeah, but you just see like every once in a while you kind of get a glimmer at it through your whole life.

Yeah.

And yeah, I felt kind of like that. I felt like that but on like an animal somewhere at a zoo that had been closed for almost 2,000 years, right? That's what I felt like.

Yeah, long forgotten.

Yes.

I felt like, you know, like these sunglasses that are just sitting here, but nobody knows that they have a soul and a brain, but they're just— they can't say or do anything because they're just frozen in these glasses. But you know what I mean?

Yeah.

So then when I started to come back to— that was hilarious too, because I, I guess I started coming to— there's this lady's face right here, and her face is all distorted, and she's talking to me in this alien language. And I looked at her, I'm like, "Who are you?" You know? And then I look over here and there's this big tall man in a white shirt. And I was like, "Uncle John?" And then my wife said I was talking all sorts of gibberish about like the inside of an apple core and that like this has all been predetermined. Like this was all, you know, thought out and this was like part of the plan. You know, everything.

You had the wizard's tongue, they call it.

Yeah, yeah.

For a second there, I thought I was. And then I was also speaking complete gibberish. Not saying real words.

Yeah, but that you got—

yeah, but then, uh, that's fucking—

hey dude, welcome to New Jersey.

Yeah, the doctors were running around doing a bunch of stuff to me, and I just like— I was like, I didn't know what was going on, and I was like, I thought they were aliens like fucking with me, you know, like trying to probe me or something. And I was like, fuck you. Yeah, like I just told him that.

I was like, get away from my ass, Whitey.

I was like, I'm sorry, you know, I didn't mean that, you know.

And then, uh Oh yeah, there's nothing crazier than being on drugs and being an asshole and apologizing at the same time.

Yes, right away I was like, fuck you, I'm sorry, you know. And then they put this thing on, uh, I mean, it's great.

You're the best, dude.

The, uh, what do you call it, for, for your blood pressure?

Oh yeah, that cuff.

Yeah, that cuff. It fills up. So I'm laying there, I'm all fucked up, and that thing fills up. And, you know, probably because of my guns that thing popped right off, right? The Velcro came undone and it went— it goes pop off my arm. And I go, my butt popped, you know? And I just— it felt like my butt cheeks like blew up with air and then they popped like a bubble.

Oh yeah.

And I was like, oh, my butt popped, you know?

Yeah.

My wife was like trying not to laugh, but I was saying some crazy shit. And then they, uh, they brought me upstairs And I was in a lot of pain all night long because they started giving me like Dilaudids and, and hydrocodone just orally, and it wasn't doing anything to the pain. I just laid there and moaned and groaned all night.

Dude, that— but that seems crazy that they— and did they have to go over with your wife if they were going to give you all that medication? Like, who approves that once you're kind of like—

yeah, my manager was there, my wife, my security dude, you know.

Okay, so there were people there at least like like keeping tabs on you?

Yeah.

Okay, bet.

Yeah, I think my, uh, my dude Jim, he rode with me over there, and then my man—

Oh, I met him.

Yeah, you know, dude, he's awesome, bro. Yeah, he's a killer.

He's a great guy.

Yeah. Then the next morning they fucking took me down for surgery, and they— before they gave me a nerve block, which was the best thing ever because it just— it's like an epidural for your leg. It just drenches all the nerves in lidocaine. So I didn't feel nothing then for the first time since it happened. I was like, oh, it just felt so good to not feel it.

Damn, you were like Eminem in the 2000s. You're like, yeah, freaking Marshall, nothing matters.

Yeah, for sure.

That's crazy.

And they gave me this one shit, I can't remember what it was called, but it had me so chilled out.

And then like, God, dude, it sounds like it's— this is kind of the worst thing to say being in recovery, but to fucking say like, yeah, using drugs like in a hospital, like it was like proper care.

Yeah, it was a freebie.

Yeah, it's a freebie, dude.

Yeah, it was. It really was. I mean, and I—

you, you—

except for the—

except for the— I mean, I sort of enjoyed the ketamine, but it was also terrifying because I thought I was frozen in a—

oh yeah, that shit's horrible—

different dimension, you know?

You're like, nobody's ever gonna come, like, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah, I thought my brain had fried, and I, you know, it was like you took a glass of water and poured it on a television or something. It was like all the, you know, my brain just fried. But man, the thing that they gave me right before surgery, uh, I don't know what it was, but it had me so chilling. And, uh, I was finally just getting some rest and some relief. And this— and then my oxygen kept going down, so my thing started beeping. So I'd start chilling like this, and then she'd go beep beep beep, and then this lady would come in and say, I need you to take a big deep breath for me. I'm like, you know, I take a deep breath and then I chill a little bit, and it goes beep beep, and she's like, I need you to breathe. And I'm like, I am breathing, you know? Like, just leave me alone. Like, I'm fucking chilling finally, you know? And God, now that I'm chilling, you're coming in here making me breathe and shit. Because I guess I was so chilled out I wasn't even breathing. I was just—

oh yeah, that's one of those breath diggers, dude.

It was good.

It's like that, they just want to fucking— all they care about is you filling your lungs up, dude. All those fucking— just those lung diggers.

But yeah, probably the smartest thing that I did coming out of the hospital was I gave all my pain meds to my wife and I said, you divvy these up, you know. Yeah, you're in charge of this. Like, give me my pills when I need them and stuff, because I know myself too well. I'd be like, oh man, one of these is good, what— wonder what two's like. So then, uh, yeah, start hiding them or whatever.

Yeah, I'd fucking start boofing them.

I don't care, crush one up and snort it or something.

Yeah, but snort it with my ass, brother. I get it, you know what I'm saying? If I had to, like, a little Parachute. If— yeah, what's it called?

A little parachute.

Oh yeah, a little parachute, bro. If they— yeah, yeah, dude, I'd send somebody behind enemy lines, you know. I'd send one of them behind enemy lines for sure. Yeah, but yeah, I can't trust myself. Can't trust myself.

Yeah, I, I— and I'm, you know, I've just been around it a lot and I know myself. I'm an addict, so I was like scared to, you know, be on that stuff anyways. But I had to take out— they gave me Dilaudids and then I was on this, uh What is it called? Gabapentin was like the nerve pain thing. And then there was another—

I just saw a lawsuit about gabapentin. You may be able to be part of that shit.

Gave me vertigo like a motherfucker. It was crazy, dude. But yeah, I weaned off it in like— I weaned off like everything in like 2 weeks. Um, and then I was just on like ibuprofen and stuff. And so it was pretty good.

Weeks— 2 weeks is a long haul. Let's read it really quick. Is that new? Yeah, June.

Is it related to dementia? Shut up. But, but look, dude, I'm just gonna tell you, just because I'm telling you, this shit gave me vertigo, like weird brain shit to where when I'm laying in bed and I roll over like this, next thing you know I'm spinning. You know how when you get way too drunk and you're spinning and you can't fucking hold the— you know, that's what it was doing to me, dude. And I like the— one of the first times it happened, I laid back in bed and I moved my head like this and I was like that because I thought the bed was falling down into the floor. I thought I was gonna slide off the end of it, you know?

Fuck yeah, I know what you're talking about, dude. When I was like 13 or something, I fucking, um, the dude left the Gravitron door open at our fair one time and my fucking legs were hanging out of that bitch. And dude, no joke, bro, I walked sideways for probably almost 11 days after that, dude. I just like, my body just could not adjust to what was going on. That thing would— that thing fucking remix my little ass. Um, there is currently no nationwide class action lawsuit or multi-district litigation, uh, for these cognitive claims. The allegation lawsuits are being investigated or filed individually, alleging that manufacturers failed to warn patients and doctors about potential long-term neurocognitive risks such as mild cognitive impairment or dementia tied to repeated use for off-label conditions like back or neck pain. Anyway, I just— that just passed through my, um, brainosphere the other day. You know when the bathroom has 2 handicap stalls so you don't feel so bad taking one of them? Or when you wear last year's summer shorts for the first time this season and find a $5 bill in the pocket? That's a power move. Just like how hiring Morgan and Morgan is a power move.

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Yeah, it's an illness. I mean, I think some people are lucky enough not to have it. I think, um, you know, people who can go out and have a couple beers with their dinner or a glass of wine with their steak or whatever. It's like, man, yeah, that's, that's amazing. I wish I could do that. Yeah, because if I'm like, we need to like get a bottle of whiskey and finish it and, you know, we need to go on a mission to get more after that's gone.

Oh dude, I'll fucking— if I come over to your house and you give me a glass of wine, I'm gonna fucking get an 8-ball. I'm gonna sell— I'll sell your front porch on Etsy. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? I'll sell all your fucking windows out of your house. You little fuck.

You want to know— and I'm going to take that out, but, uh, you want to know what's crazy is that it just—

yeah, it's just not going to end well, dude.

So after my mom died, um, and I was in Australia when I found out that she died from an overdose. I was in Australia on tour. I still had no idea what happened. I was like, was it an aneurysm, a heart attack? Like, what the hell happened? And then I got her autopsy and her, um, her papers back and it's, you know, her death certificate and it said methamphetamine intoxication was the cause of death. Like, holy shit, you know, because that was a surprise. Yeah, big time. I mean, and I had no idea that she was using again and stuff, so it broke my heart. And, you know, I've been dealing with it, but as soon as I got back home from Australia, I went straight over to her house and I went up in her bedroom and I started digging through shit and I found her stash, you know, and I found all these, you know pipes and, you know, little bags and vials and stuff and all that shit. But dude, um, the difference is like this speed was different than the stuff I was used to. Like back when I was around that scene living in Ionia and that it was that epidemic at that time, it was being cooked in this area and it was like Sudafed, like shake and bake, uh, kind of country bumpkin sort of crank.

I knew you were talking about like just like that homemade shit kind of.

Yeah, it was like white powdery stuff and you you know, put it in a pipe or a light bulb or a foil and like jank them or whatever.

Not exactly, not exactly, but yeah, I know what you're saying, but I'm just saying like it's like a localized mixture, it's like a local recipe. Yeah, but it got the job done.

Anyways, this shit that I found after she had died, when I found her stash, this was straight crystal, um, glass. And I had never even seen shit like that before, right? I had heard about it and everybody's seen Breaking Bad and shit, but I'm looking at it, I got this vial and it's like half full and I'm like, damn. And it just looks like broken glass in there, like shards.

Really?

Yeah. And I, you know, I'd never—

Does it look anything like that? I mean, we just brought up a picture here.

Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, I could also— I could send you the pictures of it, but, um, dude, you want to know what the first thought that went through my head was? I was like, man, I should just take a little bit of this and put it aside for like a rainy day. Yeah, you know, because I don't— where the hell else would I get some? You know, I don't, I don't know anybody anymore or whatever. That's like that addict, you know, coming through. It's like this— literally the stuff that I'm holding in my hand killed my mom, and my first thought is I should take some and just hide it, like that way if I need it someday. Yeah, you know, I'll have it. And, um, Yeah, it was just— that was a crazy thought, you know. And I just ended up, you know, getting rid of it. I got a hold of my buddy, my friend Alec, who's a police officer I went to high school with growing up. And I called him and I was like, man, can you have one of your boys come just grab this stuff? Like, I don't want to put it in the trash can because I'll go digging back through there later, or my dad will, or something, or somebody will.

Or I just needed to get like actually dispose of it, you know. And so my mom would have hated that. She always told me, don't even speak to the police.

But yeah, yeah, man, another crazy thing too is like, that's a good definition of it.

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's how bad it is. It's like, like I said, this, this literally killed my mom. And, and I'm thinking, man, I should just take a little bit. Yeah, and put it aside. Nobody would know.

And also thoughts like, for a rainy day. Oh yeah, I would be like, let me keep some so I can scrapbook it. That's— I'm not even joking, that's what my brain would do. So I can like have like a— if I— and you know what I'm saying, like I'll think like, let me keep some for like a memory, like a mem— you know what I'm saying? Like, but yeah, but there's a part of my brain that's like, uh, man, I don't know, that's just a good— yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. I know we had texted kind of around that time, but, um, well, yeah, man, and I appreciate you, uh, reaching out.

You know, this guy, he got a big heart. I mean, you stayed in touch with me through all that. When I was in the hospital with my dad, you kept, you know, kept in touch, and you offered to come walk my dog when I broke my leg. Like, man, you're a good dude, and I appreciate all that, you know.

Well, thanks, man.

You're the—

probably you're one of the realest guys we've ever— we've— you're one of the realest people I've been around. I don't know how God gave you that gift to be so real. I'm sorry to hear about your mom, dude.

Yeah, she loved you, bro.

Did she?

Yeah. Oh yeah, she loved you, man.

Where did I meet her? Somewhere.

Did you?

Yeah, I met her somewhere. I'm trying to think if it was at a show of you.

Yeah, probably.

She was at a lot of your shows, right?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, she came to so many shows. Like, I would be in fucking New Orleans or Seattle or Texas or somewhere, dude, and she would just show up in my green room. I'd be like, what are you doing here? She's like, oh, I hitchhiked down with so-and-so, and you know, can you get me a hotel room?

Really?

I'm like, holy shit, Mom, I'll sleep on the bus, you can have my room.

Oh, um, what, um, yeah, what was her spirit like? Tell us, let's if it's okay with you, let's just think about her for a second.

Man, she was a— hard to explain. She was a beautiful, beautiful soul, and, um, I've never met anybody else like her, that's for sure. I mean, she, she was born in 1960 on Halloween.

No way.

Yeah, she's a Scorpio. She was like— she was always kind of like psychic and always had this intuition. Always, even though she was an outlaw, she like never, you know, she skirted around the law in a lot of different times. Like, just, but yeah, she loved music and she loved art. She was an artist. She made a lot of art.

Uh, she loved music, huh?

Oh yeah. I mean, I remember being a little kid, like a little kid, and she would like show me all these, you know, Do you know who this is? Oh, this is, you know, Led Zeppelin, or this is, you know, Pearl Jam, or this is— she used to play— she did like backwards masking where she'd play the record backwards and find like secret messages in it. And she was playing me when I remember being just a little kid. She was playing Revolution Number 9 backwards, The Beatles, White Album, showing me how it says, "Turn me on, dead man," you know. And I'm just like a little 7 years old or something. I was like, Mom, what are you doing? But yeah, she was amazing, man. She dealt with a lot of trauma in her life. I mean, I think she had a wild upbringing anyways. I mean, when she was—

Is that a picture of her when she was young?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. When she was like 16 years old, bro, go back to that one picture.

Look at what a curious but also kind of mysterious young lady she is.

Yeah.

But witchy too.

Like, she's just something— there's something different about her, man. Just like she came from like another realm just to audit humanity.

Yeah, she— I mean, she definitely did. She was, she was tapped into some shit that we will never really know about. And it was always crazy too because like, man, she's got so many crazy stories. And I would hear these stories and I wouldn't even believe them, you know. She's like, oh, I was hanging out with those dudes from Blow, like, down in like Miami and shit. They had that, you know, they were breaking out lines this long and they were, um, you know, they had boats full of money. They didn't have anywhere else to put their money, so they just would buy a boat and just put it on this boat and park it in the marina, like, just with full of cash, you know. And then, uh, you know, things, just crazy things. And I would, I would not believe her, right, because these stories would be so insanely just like, whatever, you know. And then, uh You know, like, she used to hang out with, like, um, all the bands. She would get backstage. She's got, you know, picture— I got pictures with her, like, Lynyrd Skynyrd and, you know, all these, uh, old bands.

She said one of those bands— what was that band, 38 Special or some shit like that? One of these bands had a damn chimpanzee that would ride on roller skates and bring drinks around.

Really? Who was it?

That's what she said anyways. And I'm like, okay. You know, and then later on, she seems like such a gypsy woman. Yeah, she was, man. Later on in life, there would be somebody, you know, show up, her, one of her old girlfriends or something. Debbie, remember that time we were partying with the band and they had the chimpanzee? And I'm like, are you shit me? You know, and it would always be like some story that I did not believe. And but just crazy, crazy shit like that, man. She's, she's had, she had a wild life. And it makes sense that she would go out like that because because she's not gonna go out in some boring way. She's not gonna get sick and drag it out. She's just gonna— And that's the other thing about her is she would be there and you're partying and you're hanging out and then it's like, where's Deb? She would just leave without saying a word. And that's how she left, is how she always did. And it was, now that I've had more time to process it and just been in a lot of therapy and stuff, I mean, obviously it still tears me up.

I'm, I'm like grieving a lot in my dreams. Mm-hmm. I wake up like suffocating in my sleep and I just like, my mom comes to me and I— but it's never like a sweet, like beautiful thing. It's always like really painful. And I wake up and I'm just like, I'm not breathing and I'm like, I'm crying so hard in my sleep that it just wakes me up and my throat hurts and my head is throbbing and I'm— and so I feel like I'm grieving a lot in my sleep or something, but Um, well, she seems so whimsical.

It's almost like the only place you could even, yeah, touch her is in your dreams in a way, you know what I'm saying? Like, she just seems like such an ethereal type of creature, you know? It's— even hearing you talk about it, man, um, it's so wild that she loved music so much and that the thing that she created was a musician. It's just kind of like, yeah, like, I don't know, it's kind of, um It's pretty cool. Yeah, you know, because sometimes our mothers go through a lot, I think, and we don't realize it, you know. We— because they don't— a lot of moms don't— they don't really share all that with you, I think.

Well, I think that was a big part of her, um, you know, addiction and stuff was— let's see, I mean, she had a crazy upbringing anyways. My grandpa was always drinking, coming in, smashing up the house, and just It was just a wild place to grow up. And then, you know, she was with my dad, William Apostle, and he died when he was 35. I was 2 years old. And that was only a couple years after her sister was murdered. So her sister was her best friend. And Mel, who's now free, you know, on a fucking bass boat somewhere, he killed my Aunt Carla with a .45 point-blank, closed case, fucking, you know, um, and my mom, you know, there was that. And then a couple years later, my dad died of an overdose, or I mean, that's what it was. But also there's a lot of like kind of word on the street is somebody actually gave him a hotshot, like on purpose. So like, that's the crazy thing too, is I just came across all these— my cousin Patrice, she just found all these old tapes that was my grandma Apostle's from her home phone back in the day.

And It's the first time I ever heard my dad's voice.

Wow.

On these tapes, you know, and it's just really crazy the shit that they were all doing back in the day. Everybody was in and out of jail, all this crazy shit going down.

So was it voicemails and stuff like that, leaving on a message machine?

No, it was like my grandma had her own phone tapped and every single phone call would just be recorded.

Sorry, dude, that's just so bizarre. Yeah, and perfect for your life. And what a gift now that she had it.

Yeah, because I could hear my— you know, I can hear my grand— or my, my Dad calling his mom kind of from jail or something. Yeah, bitching about, you know, whatever, this and that. Or, I need some, you know, uh, need some money in my commissary. I gave my shirt away to this one guy or whatever. Because he was like that too. He was like kind of this Robin Hood type. Like, he would go in— my dad, uh, he would go in and, uh, some store, Walmart or something. Back in the day, there was them Hypercolor shirts.

Yeah. And you blow on it, it would change colors.

Yeah. So he would go in and like steal a whole rack of those, like just come out with the rag and put it in the car. And then he would like drive around Lansing and like give them away to the homeless people and shit.

Dude, the fact that the homeless are out there repping Hypercolors. Yeah, Hypercolors.

Yeah, those were the shit, bro.

That's so—

but yeah, I've always heard a lot of crazy stories about my dad too. He was, he was— I mean, they were all nuts, dude. Just fucking wild bunch, you know, hillbillies. And, uh, my dad, like, there's this one story where he worked at a cable company for a while. And, um, ever even Eldridge or whatever, I don't know, it was some kind of—

but, but they made cable, like, long—

I'm talking about like T for TV.

Okay, bet.

Like, so even when I was a little kid, my grandma always had free cable. It was just hooked up. It was like wired in. And my dad had did that when he was— back when he was alive. And, um, it's like he would— he climbed up the, the telephone pole or whatever, and he's got the case open. And then everybody on Fairfield Street came out of their house and was looking because their TV got shut off or something. And he's all up there on that pole. He's like, do you have HBO? And they're like, no. And then he's like, he's like, well, you will in a minute, just go back inside, you know. So he hooked up everybody on Fairfield Street's cable for free, like after he worked for the company, you know. Yeah, dude, shit like that. He was like Robin Hood, bro.

Bro, he'd— we could use him now to take care of these flock cameras. That's what we could use him now for, man.

One of the craziest things too is like that I'm coming to terms with and like learning and, and stuff like that is just hearing him Hearing him talk about me and my brother and stuff. Like, when I was growing up and he was, you know, he died when I was 2, I always thought, oh well, he loved heroin more than me, right? And I'm kind of, you know, I was kind of like, well, screw him. I got my, you know, Terry, that's my dad. He raised me up. He taught me everything I know, how to play and everything. And I always kind of had this chip on my shoulder about my real dad, but it's just not the case. I mean, He did love me and my brother, and he did try his best, and he was trying to, you know, get his life straight and stuff. And it turns out there's a pretty good chance that he was kind of murdered, you know, like somebody shot him up with like, you know, a hot shot is what they would call it.

Would people do that to people like they didn't like, they would, who they knew were struggling with addiction sometimes? Is that a common thing?

It's a way to murder somebody with that, you know, it just looks like an overdose.

Yeah. Good point.

And I think that was happening a lot back then. I mean, the guy who supposedly did it, Steve Rogers, um, he died the same exact way months or a year later. And I think his old lady Martha might have shot him up like that because she loved my dad, you know, or whatever. And but I think there was a lot of that tit-for-tat stuff going on back then. And, um, yeah, it's, it's crazy to, to learn about and hearing these tapes and stuff, because there's also tapes of my mom calling my grandma Apostle, talking about what happened. My grandma Connie on my mom's side calling my grandma Betty on the Apostle side, calling and telling her what happened to her son and stuff. Like, you know, apparently he like collapsed in the driveway. And like, they, you know, Steve Rogers was like, let's get out of here. And, you know, Martha's like, hell no. And, and, and took him inside and was trying to do CPR and everything. And, you know, so hearing all this stuff is really— I went down a bad rabbit hole of it when I found all these tapes and I started listening to everything.

And I just, you know, it's like I'm trying to put these puzzle pieces back together from 1995, you know?

Oh, it's like a serial podcast. Yeah.

I mean, it's, it's just— but it's like my dad. You know. Yeah.

And then you have to go down it. Was it a lot of hours of tapes?

There's a lot of them on there.

Yeah.

I haven't even listened to all of them yet.

Wow.

But there's also just like— I always thought the Lee side was crazy because my grandpa, for instance, he was an outlaw race car driving, you know, bringing moonshine up to Michigan. Crazy. Just crazy bunch. And he hung out with like riffraff from Lansing and stuff. Like all his whole crew was just like Like, crazy, dude. Crazy. Like, there's this guy named Art Schaefer, and he's still around. And Art Schaefer was like a klepto, and he would hang out with my grandpa. You know, he was— my grandpa hung out with like the outcasts, you know. He would befriend these guys. There was this guy Billy Struble who was mentally challenged, and there was Art Schaefer, and there was Hillbilly Pete who had a big beard, and he always had a Big 40 wrapped up in a paper bag. He never really said much. But Billy Struble was always like, you know, helping my grandma mow the yard and stuff. And he was always real proud. Guess who mowed the yard, Boomer? I did it, I did it, you know. And I was like, hell yeah, Billy. He always smelled like coffee.

Yeah.

And, um, like bad, like bad kind of stinky coffee. But then Art Schaefer, he's total klepto. And so there's this great story of him, uh, my uncle worked at this place called Crystal Ray and they had events there and stuff. And so they had all these, um, what was it, like, uh, turkeys or some ribs or something in the freezer.

It was like a little, like a convention center type, or like a place, like a, like a hall people would go and have.

Exactly, like a VFW kind of, like a, like a hall. They would have like bingo there, weddings maybe.

Yeah, maybe.

Uh, yeah, but my Uncle Billy, he worked at this place, and so Oh, they were steaks is what they were, big old steaks. And so they were going to have this event when they were going to cook all these steaks. And Art Schaefer was good friends with my Uncle Billy, and he found out there was all these steaks there, and he went and stole all them steaks. And, uh, and so he had them. And my Uncle Billy, he said, uh, the next day or something, he said, man, he was sitting there with Art, and he knew how to draw it out of him. He said, man, Art, man, it's a nice day. I mean, I sure wish we had some of them steaks that come up missing, man. I'm sure they'd be good. And he goes, they are good.

You know, he snitched on himself.

Yeah, yeah, he said they are good, bro.

My buddy Antonio, the other day, he freaking— he had some bad zins that he bought off the internet, like, like a bunch of cans of them. So he went and sold them to like some gas station owner, like at some like kind of small gas station.

Whoa.

Knowing they were bad, but then fucking such an idiot, 2 days later he went to that gas station and bought a can of them because he was just going to buy Zinz. He bought his own bad Zinz back.

Oh my gosh, were they like expired or something?

I don't know, they were just— I think they were bootleg ones he bought off the internet or something.

I think—

oh, like fake?

Yeah, I think he got them on Etsy or whatever. God, I'm like, bitch, that's what you fucking get for getting Zinz off of Etsy.

Yeah, um, man, I was on those things for a while. I just kind of last couple months or whatever. I got off them damn things, dude.

It's like we spend so much of our lives trying to get off of some of this stuff.

Now I'm just on coffee. Yeah, and I quit smoking weed back in December. Um, what made you want to quit, dude? It was like kind of on my mind for a while, like wanting to quit, and then there was two like real big moments. Um, first what happened is I was I was leaving to go to the grocery store to go get some groceries and just, you know, get some shit to eat.

Yeah, dinner, lunch.

Yeah, just some stuff to put in the cupboards, you know. And, um, I walk out to my truck and I, I'm just like this. I'm like, like, oh shit, like, you know, I don't have my vape pen on me, you know, my weed pen.

Yeah, you're just frisking yourself.

I'm just like, yeah, exactly. And I'm like, oh shit, I gotta go back inside and get my pen. And I'm just like, in my mind, I'm like, really? Like, do you really? You can't go 20 minutes to the damn grocery store without weed? And so it just made me feel kind of weak or something, right? Just like, man, you can't do anything without this? Like, you really need to smoke weed every 5 minutes? You know, and then, and then, uh, this is a perspective kind of— yeah, just like, maybe, you know, I was just going to the grocery store. I'll be right back. I can get it in 20 minutes. Yeah, you can't go 20 minutes without it.

Well, that's what's interesting, that feeling of that moment. Like, whenever I— it's like, if I can just let this moment pass for 30 seconds, I'm gonna be fine. Yeah, but this moment feels like I'm never gonna have that again.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's just like, I need it, you know? So, so that was kind of weird. And then, uh, the straw that really broke the camel's back was my son was sick. He had the flu or something, and he was just a little guy. Um, River. River. Yeah, he was just a little guy, and he— it's the first time he really ever got sick. Like, you know, he was throwing up, and, um, it was like 2 days of this, and he was just like nursing, uh, and he was sleeping, and I was just like, okay, he kind of seemed like he was in like a pretty good spot. And like, I was like, are you guys good? Like, I'm gonna go upstairs and work on some music in the studio. And, um, my wife, yeah, he's sleeping, you know, he's good, he's just nursing and sleeping. And so I'm like, okay, I'm gonna go upstairs. And I'm upstairs and I'm working on some music. Of course I'm hitting my pen, you know, and I'm working on music and playing on Pro Tools and shit. And then, uh, getting high You know, and when I came back downstairs, my son had gotten worse.

Like, he was like lethargic. Like, we couldn't even get his attention. We had to bring him to the hospital. And that was the last time I smoked right there. It was like I felt like such a, you know, my son is sick and I'm upstairs getting high.

Like, that's like, yeah, like a commercial almost.

It was just, yeah, it was just like, man, I'm done with this shit. And I just like threw all my paraphernalia away. And just— I just quit right there.

Fuck, dude.

Yeah.

Does it feel different now? Do you feel— do— have you— what are some things that you noticed since you— since you quit smoking? Because you probably smoked it for a decent amount of your life, dude.

I smoked every day since I was like 11.

I mean, oh damn, dude.

Sorry. I mean, I— by the time I was 12, I was like scraping my bowl to get high, you know. I was like, fuck, bro, looking for roaches and shit. Yeah, it's just I've always smoked weed. The only time I ever quit was when I was like 19 and I I got a DUI, they put me on, uh, probation and I couldn't smoke for that whole year. So I was just doing acid that whole year.

Yeah, but, um, oh dude, cocaine helped me quit vaping at one point.

Oh, that's a different one.

But so, you know what I'm saying, it's just the, the way that some things kind of work out.

Yeah, um, like I said, now I feel like I'm just drinking so much coffee, it's like I gotta have something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I just, I've always wondered about it too because Well, yeah, I grew up— I mean, dude, when I was fucking 10 years old or something, like, dude, we were like sitting in a field like huffing rubber cement until we heard Mystery Music in our head. Like, I was like just a little baby, you know, like trying to get high. And, uh, you know, but like I said, by the time I was 12, I was full-on stoner kid, you know. And, um, fuck. And, and, and whatever. So it's like my whole life I had, I had always, uh, you know, had something like that. And so I've often wondered, like, what is life like without, like, drugs and getting high and drunk and stuff? Like, what, what would it be like to just raw dog life? Yeah, you know, like, and it's actually hard, you know, but, but it's, uh, it's— yeah, dude, it's not as Hard is like, you know, I feel like drugs and shit cause a lot more problems than they, than they medicate, you know.

Um, I think a scenario like that with the kid would probably, yeah, it would make you have to about-face. Maybe just even that moment, it's like, I just can't, I can't risk this. I can't risk being high in case something happens to myself.

No.

And, and also, like, I grew up, you know, in an environment that was very pro-party.

Yeah, remember we talked about it last time we were podcasting.

Yeah, you know, beers, music, people smoking weed, even the whole culture around the music I grew up with, not necessarily the bluegrass side, but, you know, the Beatles and the Grateful Dead and the, uh, you know, Hendrix and all this, you know, LSD and trippy psychedelic stuff is all— it's all cool, you know. It is until it ain't, you know, until You know, it's fun at first, and then when it starts to take over your life or gets too much and you can't stop or, you know, you overdo it, that's— yeah, it all starts fun and games until somebody gets hurt.

What's something about being a dad that you think has been kind of surprising? Dude, has that been like a totally crazy adventure?

Man, it's the best. I just—

I met your son in Austin. Remember, dude, I met your son and the governor of Maine. Yeah, that lady, Janet Mills. Dude, she was rocking, bro.

Yeah, that was a good hang. I'm glad you swung by.

She was rocking. And they had that pimento cheese spread over there. Dude, who is that? The— some—

I mean, yeah, she's my business manager.

She's the— no joke, I sense she might be the nicest woman that I've ever met. She is just like being helpful. Like, she just like wants to be helpful.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, that's what she does. I mean, she helps me with everything on the daily. Everything. She's like my business manager, but I also you know, she helps me like with like my doctor's appointments and like my, you know, every single thing she helps me with. And my manager Bill.

Yeah, she was so nice, man. And then we went to your show and Steven Wilson Jr. was there, dude, and I got to meet his son, which was awesome.

Oh wow, his son was there?

Yeah, his son was there and his wife was there. Um, so that was just great. That was so cool, dude. And I got to see you guys meet. You guys, I don't think it— I think you guys had kind of passed, but it never got kind of meet each other.

Yeah, that's where I met him. That was what, uh, was it Farm Aid or— no, it was Willie's Fourth of July picnic.

And Willie's kids were there. Micah I got to meet, and his wife I got to meet too. She was, uh, she's—

yeah, Mike is the shit, man.

Yeah, dude. I think we're gonna try to go to Farm Aid.

Oh yeah, yeah, you should, man.

Um, but yeah, dude, that was so great just seeing you and Steven Wilson Jr. get to meet each other. Was cool, dude.

Yeah, he's an interesting cat, and he's got such a cool style. Um, you know, I think he's found his, like, his own sound, and it's cool because he doesn't sound like anything else that I've ever really heard. Like, his guitar playing is really interesting and really cool.

He feels like a little bit of like a time traveler or something, but I don't know where he's coming from or where he's going, kind of. But it's kind of nice to see him pass by, you know? Yeah, he's, uh, he has some sunglasses too that he just mailed me, a pair of like, kind of, I think he kind of came out or like Maybe did like a collab on some sunglasses, but pretty cool stuff. Um, yeah, what's something about being a dad that kind of surprised you, or does it feel like a surprise at all? Maybe like to somebody like you who like has had so many types of feelings and like kind of traversed so many different moments of highs and lows of life that, um, that that's not as big of a surprise. It just sort of feels like, uh, I think, uh, life moving on.

So the big one for me, um, I mean, besides just— I would fucking rip your esophagus out for him if I had to. Like, just feeling that about somebody, like, I would kill someone for him if I had to. Or like, you know, like, I love him that much that I would fillet you right here, you know? And, uh, that's awesome. That's crazy to feel that love.

And, um, so it's like a new kind of love? Like, like, is it— does it feel like a, um— because that's interesting.

Truly, like, I would take bullets. Like, you know what I mean?

Like, I love you.

Yeah. And it— I've just never felt that before. It's like I would, I would die for him. Like, I would do anything to protect him.

Huh.

It's just a crazy feeling.

Does it feel like a part of you, or does it feel like a new— like, does that question make any sense kind of to you?

Yeah, he does feel like a part of me. Actually, what's so funny is the other day he had this like little booger and I like picked his nose and I like grabbed this little booger and I was like, wait a minute, like I have boogers. He came from my balls. Now he has boogers. Like this is still sort of my booger.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Yeah, dude.

Like this booger was once in my balls. You're like, wow, that's so wild to me.

Yeah.

Oh yes.

And then I like rolled it and I like flicked it.

Fuck yeah, dude.

You know?

Yeah, I love that, bro. Fuck a kidney stone, boy. We on some new shit. Yeah, yeah.

But one of the—

that's crazy.

One of the beautiful things about—

yeah, my fucking boogers aren't even just mine.

Yeah.

And now, yeah, he's got everything.

Shit.

Piss, puke, and boogers, and, you know, tears and everything. But man, one of the big, like, things that I felt like a shift in is that, you know, music has always been like the most important thing to me. It's like been my— the way I've survived. It's been my social currency. It's been my survival tactic. It's been my coping mechanism. It's been everything. And it's always been the most important thing to me. My guitar is my best friend. There's nothing that comes before that, you know. And I used to be so worried about the music, like even just on stage where I'm so concerned about playing well, singing well, performing good, probably because I don't want to go back to where I was, like being poor and not having food and just living in squalor and kind of having a shitty life.

You know, the uncertainty of it all.

Yeah.

And just like, you know, when you don't have food, it sucks, you know. And, um, so I think ever since I started like making money playing music or just making a living off of it, you know, like, I'm like, oh man, I have to— every time I step on stage, I have to just kill it. Otherwise, like, I could go back to that, right?

Like, the pendulum is there every single time. Yeah, dude, I feel that same way.

And it's like I'm always like running away from, you know, I'm never like running towards success. It's like away from poverty. And I'm scared that this is all going to go away and I'm going to end up in some trailer smoking foils again or whatever. And so I have strangled the life out of the music before because I'd been so concerned about playing well that I'm playing hard and I'm thinking and I'm like trying to lead the band and I'm just like all this, you know, crazy stuff. And it's like, Man, that's not really the way to go about it, you know? And at the end of the day, we're just playing music here. It's not the end of the fucking world if you play a wrong note or you forget a couple lyrics or whatever, dude. Nobody cares. It's— nobody's gonna get hurt. It's not a big deal. But to me it is. Like, if I have a bad gig, dude, I'll be depressed for days, you know?

Yeah.

Or something. That just happened recently, really, dude.

Who's your therapist, man? I told— I want your therapist.

Uh, well, her name is Dr. Okay, she's in Nashville.

Is she?

Yeah, dude.

But because some of the stuff you're saying, it's like exactly like I've just felt sometimes, like in my life, dude, it's like I feel like, like one little thing goes wrong, it's like it's gonna— like everything depends on me. It's not true, but it's like— and it's not everything does, like, like, uh, like I'm some kind of god or something, but it's just like, well, dude, You're famous, man. But it's like, but it's like every— it's like nothing— everything has to go this way, or I, I can't even explain it exactly, but everything feels like a lot of pressure, you know?

Yeah, because you got all these eyes on you and everything.

Well, I have my own eyes on me. It's like my— I won't let my— I fucking— yeah, I'm under my own microscope, you know?

Yeah.

But it's like, yeah, it's just like, um, I don't know, I just— I don't give myself enough room to breathe in there where where it's like, hey man, we're having a good time. It's kind of, we're having a comedy, you know? It's like we're doing, it's like we're making laughter. And at a certain point, sometimes it's like you almost start to lose some of the laughter because you're, it's, it's like you're squeezing it too tight. Yeah, everything feels so life or death kind of. But it's always felt like that.

Sometimes you have to allow yourself to bomb, you know, to have those, like, to have those better shows. They can't always, they can't all be zingers.

Yeah.

You know, and you have to just realize that. And so that's kind of the beautiful thing about it is like when you're truly improvising, you're not always going to do it. Like the ball team doesn't always win, you know, like the Red Sox don't always win even though they just did like 14 in a row or something.

Yeah.

And I just went to like, yeah, one of my first ballgames out there. That was pretty cool.

Did you?

Yeah.

Who was pitching? Do you remember?

No, I don't know. I don't know enough about that stuff, but I brought my son to that. It was cool. But man, what I was getting at is like, when I had my son, when he was like brand new, and then I started going to play gigs again, like all of a sudden it's like, I don't give a shit if I play bad. I don't give a shit if I miss a few words. And instead of like strangling the music, all of a sudden I'm singing and playing. I'm— as long as they're okay, I'm free to go play and sing.

Hmm.

As long as Bear and River and Allie are good, man, then I can go play and sing, right? And I'm not only strangling the music less, which in turn I'm playing much better and singing better. I'm singing from a place of joy in my belly. Yeah, I'm singing, you know, and I'm playing guitar free from the restrictions of fear.

Mm.

And I'm truly just letting it go.

And yeah, I'm not playing out of desperation.

Yeah. And I'm actually playing because it's fun and I, you know, I get to go play. And I've just realized that, I mean, I play and sing much better now. And I always also, every time I'm playing, I have this little cosmic listener that I can just look out in the crowd, but I can picture River's face wherever he is in the world and I can sing to him. He's my little guy.

Really?

Yeah. And also, dude, when I walk out the front door of my house, to go get on the bus and go on tour. Now I have a reason to provide for my family. I'm on an actual mission, right? Not just to go stoke my ego and to go, you know, like, oh, to go play and try to whatever, keep doing this music thing that has always been the most important thing. It's like, no, it's not the most important thing. I am a musician. That's what I do. That's my job. but it's not the biggest thing in life. My family is. And that actually makes me play better because I'm not squeezing it so hard. And now I'm actually loosey-goosey. It's like when you look at a cheetah run, if you watch it on slow-mo or something, it's like they start and the faster they run, the looser they get, right?

Mm.

I mean, they start looking like a spaghetti noodle.

Mm.

And, um, that's kind of how I feel my life is going right now. It's like I'm looser now, and I'm just kind of more flowing with it. And I attribute so much of that to my son because he's the only thing that is really truly life or death, like, important to me. I mean, all this stuff is important. My music is important. Yeah. My fans are important. My career is important.

So what a gift he is.

Yeah. But it's, it's not as important as, as River.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So it's nice to have something that trumps, you know, the music that's more important than that, you know.

Do you think you needed something like that when you're looking at your life now? Like, are you even able to see that? Because dude, as you're saying that, Billy, it's like, it's kind of funny because it's like, yeah, man, like sometimes you get tired. Yeah. And some of the stuff you made me— it just kind of brought up some emotions. I think there's something nice. I always feel something when a dad talks about his son, you know. I think there's something about that that like you know, all like— I don't know, it makes me feel something.

Dude, I absolutely love it. Uh, you know, before I came over here today, I was working in the garage. I'm building him a little table. Like, yesterday I went to Home Depot and I got like a bunch of lumber and stuff, and I'm, I'm building him this little table for him to play with his monster trucks on. And there's like this big ramp that comes down and they do a loop and And I saw this— me and him watch these YouTube videos. It's called Our Time for Adventures or something. It's like this guy that just, um, basically plays with these toy monster trucks. He's like, let's go racing! And like, River loves it. And dude, I love it. It's like I sit there and watch him and, you know, he just races these monster trucks. And so I'm building him like one of those tables like that. And I— that's what I was doing before I came over here this morning. Is like working on this like table for my son and, and, you know, just, just stuff like that. It's like, like, yeah, like that, you know, like that table.

Oh, sweet.

And it has these like little things. He lets go of them and then they ramp. So I'm like building one of these for my little dude and so he can have like a cool table to play with his monster trucks on. He loves monster trucks.

Oh, that's so fun, dude.

Yeah.

Do you almost get to have some childhood moments that you didn't get to have through your son, but you almost have them like in reverse psychology? Does that make any sense?

Yeah, you get to view the world again through these kind of more innocent eyes and more curious— curiosity, which is an amazing thing, you know, because I grew up really quick. I mean, I, like I said, by the time I was 13, I was— I moved out of my mom's house and I was, you know, I look at a 13-year-old kid right now and I'm like, oh my God, I was like homeless at that time. Yeah, sleeping on couches, you know, like, holy shit. I didn't really have— I mean, I had a good childhood for a little bit, but then it got— things got kind of rough. And I feel like a lot of my childhood, I had to grow up too quick.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah, dude, that's a great way to put it.

So yeah, I just, man, I love playing with, with my son and like just, you know, his little toys and watching like Cars or whatever. Like, he loves Lightning McQueen.

Yeah.

And, uh, dude, I've watched that movie so many damn times. It's so good.

That's kind of nice you get to do that and go back and have those moments. Yeah, dude, even when I think back when I was like 14, I moved out and lived with some other people. But before that, for like about a year, I would go to school each day and I'd stay with like a different friend's family or something.

Yeah.

So it'd be like I'd be at school and all day— it's funny, I didn't think about this till just now— all day, part of my day was, how am I gonna convince somebody at school today to let me stay over there?

Yeah.

So sometimes it would get to like 4th period and shit, he'd be like, like, fuck, I've already exhausted a couple of options, dude. I'm gonna fucking have to stay with somebody I don't even know, dude. And sometimes it would get a little weird, bro. Like, there was like 2 days, 2 nights I stayed with one of our janitor's families. We had a vice principal used to sleep in his trunk, the trunk of his car during fucking recess. And I'd go over there, I'd go over there, and I seen him get in there a couple times. So one time I mentioned that to him, like a little bit of like like, not like bartering, like trying to like threaten to snitch. But a little bit of me was like, dude, I fucking know what's going— like, I don't— I didn't know if he was smoking though. I didn't know what he was doing. But just the fact that he's over there sleeping in his trunk, I think he didn't want that information out there. And his wife worked at the other school, and so they let me go stay over there for a couple nights. But I'd always remember I'd have this big backpack, and it had all— because it had all my stuff in it.

Like, it had my change of clothes, it had my toothbrush, it just had my stuff. So it was like You know, I forget about— sometimes, like, I think you're right, just growing up quick. It's like the other stuff that you're thinking about that other kids aren't thinking about, probably, you know.

In a lot of ways, I, I'm grateful for it.

Yeah. You know, do you think, do you think, like, so say you're a dad that doesn't get to be there as much as he wants for his son, right? Like, maybe you, like, heard from listening to some of your dad's, like, tapes and stuff from the voicemails and the, the conversations you had with your grandmother, right? Like, just, this is all kind of a hypothetical thing, or say you're the kid that didn't get this, some of the experience he needed, right? Or some of the nurturing and like, or just like the connection that he needed, right? Do you think that like, as a dad now, like, do you think it matters which side of that equation you're on? Or either side, you can get the healing from one side, you know what I'm saying? Like, is there a little bit of healing you think for like the kids, like a young person out there who maybe didn't get some stuff if they are able to apply themselves as a dad, do you think that there's some healing in some of that, in the dad side of it? Does it make any sense? Sorry, I'm kind of yelling.

I feel like some of that stuff gets me kind of animated.

No, man. I think like—

Does it make sense to you what I'm asking you?

Yeah.

And I think I am trying to maybe heal some of my childhood through being his father.

Yeah.

And I think as he gets older and older, I will be able to do that. Just, I want to be present. That's part of the, you know, another part of the reason I quit smoking dope and stuff, you know? Yeah. I just wanna be there. I wanna be there. He looks at me with these big clear eyes. I wanna be clear, you know? But yeah, just like, it's a way for me to kind of, you know, redo my childhood and stuff. Now there's this other thing that I have It's like this experiential density, like because of the hardships that I've been through. And even as a young man, teen, you know, teenager, young kid, I am able to have this perspective that I feel like a lot of people don't have. And I have this kind of like terminal uniqueness in a way that's like I never feel like anybody would know what it's like to be in my shoes, like what I've been through, what I've seen, the life I've had, you know, the trauma that I've dealt with, you know, because it's much more than just, you know, having parents that were on drugs.

I mean, I was molested when I was a child. I was, you know, fucking sodomized before I was, you know, 7 years old or something.

Damn.

You know, and so, you know, there's a lot of, a lot of, a lot of shit. And I live on this island that I feel like nobody would ever understand what it's like to be me. Right. And so I think that's like more of the negative side of it. But the experiential density, I think, is kind of like I can use it as a positive thing where it's like I have this perspective like most people, like, you know, or not most people, but a lot of people, you know, they grow up and their parents feed them and they buy them a car when they're 16 and everything's fine. And like, man, I didn't have any of that shit, you know what I mean? I had to figure it out for myself. And I have this perspective, um, that a lot of people, you know, by the time I was 15 or whatever, I was more of an adult than my teachers. Yeah, you know what I mean? And, um, so one thing that I've kind of considered at one point was my wife and I, we were looking at houses in Nashville And we ended up just staying where we are, and we're gonna like do a renovation and stuff.

But we were kind of house shopping a little bit, and you know, I was looking around at these different houses, and they're all— they're all like— I didn't want any of them because they're all like on an acre and a half, and they're like tall and skinny, and it's like, man, yeah, I want to live in the country, you know? I don't— I don't like this.

Yeah, I don't want to live in a bunch of stairs. That's what some of those houses feel like, a bunch of stairs. Yeah, it's like, where are you? I'm on the stair.

Yeah, like you look out the window and you can see your neighbor, you know, washing their dog or whatever.

Yeah.

And it's like, uh, um, but as we were looking at these houses and I was looking at, you know, there was a couple that we were kind of thinking about and I was like, man, is my son gonna be a kid that grows up in a house like this? You know what I mean? Because I grew up in a moldy meth house, you know, that didn't even have a furnace. You know, we just had like a wood stove that always went out.

Yeah, dude. Oh, our living room was fucking sinking, dude. We'd have to have— I have my, um, my mom's boyfriend would come and spray like this kind of foam under the fucking carpet to kind of even it out. Oh yeah, they're just fucking retarded, dude. I think our whole side of our apartment complex was sinking.

Thinking.

Yeah, but no judgment.

Oh, you told me about your balcony.

Oh yeah, people fucking kept stealing it.

Yeah, the balcony would just fall off or whatever.

What the heck, dude? People would kept stealing it. Bring that picture up one more time, dude. Right there, that's the balcony. Yeah, it was. They put Christmas lights where it used to be. Like, bitch, we know there was a balcony. There's still a door there. What the heck, dude? We would come home and somebody would have stolen our fence because there was a front— there was a front gate in front of the like of the apartment, and then there was a— there was a balcony, and people would steal it. And they would—

how do you steal a balcony? And for what reason?

For the wood.

Just for the wood?

Yeah, for the textiles.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, and they would use it down at their joint.

That's such a strange thing to steal. Yeah, balcony.

But I think it was easily like, um, I think we didn't hammer it in good or whatever.

They could just remove it really fast. Throw it on a flatbed and get the hell out of there.

I think, bro, not a flatbed. People would fucking just run down the street with it on their backs because 3 blocks away somebody would have a new baby crib or something made out of half of it, dude. We fucking— all that neighborhood was bananas, dude. I— bro, oh yeah, it was fucking bananas.

I'd like to go check that place out sometime, dude. Your hometown, it was cool, dude. That'd be sick.

And I'll have to go up to, uh, Ionia sometime too. We're close. We wanted to be able to go up today and see some of it, but next summer we're gonna have a better plan and I'm just gonna come and do a trip in Michigan. I wanna go to Charlevoix so bad.

I wanna go.

What about Charlevoix is drawing you there?

I just heard about it. It sounds kind of magical. I wanna go to Traverse City.

Traverse City, I understand. But like, I mean, Charlevoix too, it's a nice place, don't get me wrong. But I just feel like Traverse City would be like the more destination. Charlevoix is like, a smaller place like outside of Traverse City. There's like water there and marinas and stuff like that.

But I guess I just can't imagine it. Dude, we went into Lake Michigan yesterday. Um, dude, we took a ride on a boat in the Chicago River and dude, it was the cool— one of the coolest things I've ever seen through the city.

Oh wow.

It just— if you ever get a chance, honestly, it really is like— because I, I just couldn't even believe it. Like, and I was like, oh, I've never gotten to go like on a boat boat through like a middle of a city kind of. I know you can do that here in Grand Rapids, but it's just like, you know, Chicago's just a— it's a bigger entity there.

Kind of like reminds me of like Amsterdam or something. There's all those little canals.

Oh yeah, Venice and Amsterdam. Oh yeah, Amsterdam has a ton of them, dude. Um, what about, uh, what's that island place with the dunes? You ever seen that place?

Sleepin' Bear Dunes.

Is that cool?

It's very cool.

Yeah, dude, I heard about that.

Yeah, it's a beautiful place. Michigan has some like damn near tropical, like paradise. Like, look at that blue water, dude. There's not water like that anywhere, and it's fresh water, bro.

That's what I'm saying. Like, even when I got into Lake Michigan yet in Chicago, like, we went all like off the coast a little bit. I could— I never knew it existed like that.

Like, I knew the lakes were there, but yeah, we got to keep it a secret, bro. We shouldn't even talk about this. Okay, I don't want any more people—

no, some stuff you want to keep it a secret. But we went to that Field of Dreams baseball game.

Where was that at?

Um, Dyersville, Iowa. You ever seen that movie? It's an old movie.

Yeah, yeah.

So we went to Dyersville.

Oh, I saw a video. You ate a bunch of peanuts.

Oh yeah, dude, I ate like 6 bags of peanuts. I ate almost 400, probably 400 peanuts. The guy—

well, each peanut has like 2, sometimes 3, so you might have ate 800 and something.

I don't even think about that, you know what I mean?

Yeah, because each pea— a peanut has 2 nuts in it. So if you ate 420, you made 880 peanuts.

Fuck yeah! I didn't think of that.

That's fucking close to a thousand, bro.

Damn, fuck you! You know what I'm saying, bro?

Next time, break a thousand.

Yeah, you right, you right. Yeah, I'm gonna run for mayor of Chicago now, dude, if I can eat that many peanuts at a ball game. Dude, the guy came over and had to sweep up the nutshells like 4 times, dude. There were fucking birds overhead, like, fucking, they were pissed that we created so much, like, probably usable material for nests and shit. But, um, but it was that— yeah, dude, that was just a great experience. I just love them. I don't know, I love the Midwest. I love the people. I've always heard about, um— yeah, there's some of them.

They come out of the corn.

Came out of the corn.

No way.

Yeah, one came out the closet, I think. Dude, dude, one day—

yeah, epic.

And you even— they had a corn, like, built up to walk up to it and stuff like that. And, um, Who, who I, I got to meet Patrick Renna, the guy from Sandlot. He was the great Hambino in Sandlot. And then, uh, just got to see some of the players. Um, they had Joe— let me think— Joe Maurer, um, Scott Rowland, Lee Smith, the Hawk, Andre Dawson. Joe Ryan was there. Um, yeah, and the Twins. Uh, they gave me a new hat too.

Nice. Yeah, I see you've been rocking that Detroit hat pretty heavy, dude.

Yeah, well, because one of the nicest, or like one of the dopest squads that ever came out to me, like, the guys that ever came to see me play were some of the, uh, Tigers guys came one time to see a game. Rogers, Scooble, um, Carpenter, some, some, just some of their different pitchers came out and it was just awesome, dude. And they like were just— it was like probably 2 or 3 years ago and there was like a little— they were younger and just like their energy was like, they were just fucking like ecstatic, but they were all like really nice guys.

Yeah.

Um, so that was just a good experience, dude.

Oh, it's sick to see that old English D out there.

And then here I am in Michigan, which is kind of crazy, like the things you kind of like, maybe I didn't know that I would be here today, you know?

Yeah.

And getting to spend time with you, dude. Um, dude, thanks so much for just kind of thinking about some stuff. I, uh, I want to ask you, I want you to see if you can tell me this story. I know you got to meet Bob Dylan, right? Can you tell me that story? You do not want to tell it? Sure you can.

Yeah. Um, yeah, so we were on tour with, uh, Willie and Bob And this is one of my favorite stories, dude.

Yeah.

And, you know, I don't take this for granted. You know, I remember when the, when the thing first came to me, that the offer, it was kind of put to me in a way that was like, okay, well, we, we could go do our own tour and like probably make a lot more money. Or we could go on this tour as an opener, but we're gonna be able to, you know, go tour with Bob Dylan and Willie. And it's like, dude, we're going with Bob and Willie. Are you kidding me? Of course. And so every night we played with them, me and the band would like finish our set, we would hurry up and go back to the green room, like, you know, have a snack or whatever, and then like get right back out there, get our good seats, sometimes just on the side of the stage and watch Bob Dylan play and then watch Willie play, you know. And so it was just every night was just like, we watched them intently every night because like I said, we do not take this for granted. So actually, I need to rewind a bit to tell you the story about Bob Dylan.

Somebody had told me, T-Bone Burnett actually told me—

he lives in Nashville. Yeah, he's friends with Jeff Bridges.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Jeff, dude.

And Crazy Heart.

Yeah, such a good movie. Yeah. But so T-Bone's like, hey man, Bob Dylan's like a big fan of yours. He keeps bringing you up and stuff. And I'm like, what? You know, that's crazy. And then my manager says that one of Bob's people, his— one of his managers or something, kind of just told my manager, Bill, the best way to get a hold of Bob is to write him a letter. He likes letters. So I was gonna write him a letter, and, and I remember I was staying at St. Cecilia in Austin, and I walked in the room and they had this really great paper there, like this stock paper. And I thought, well, this would be cool because it's from like a hip hotel and it's nice paper. I'm gonna take this paper. This is what I'm gonna write my letter to Bob Dylan on. And then I never did. A whole year passed. I procrastinated. And then the next year passed. We're doing Austin City Limits or something. I was in Austin again, and I stayed at the St. Cecilia again. And I walked in that same room I stayed in last time, and I saw that paper again a year later.

And I go, man, screw this. And I just set my backpack down and my luggage. I grabbed that paper and I went straight up to the cafe and I had a coffee and some eggs. And I sat there and wrote Bob Dylan a letter. Just basically, you know, saying thank you and just thank you, you know, and telling him about how I, you know, loved the way Doc Watson used to play his songs and stuff. And so after that, you know, I had heard that Bob was excited about this letter that he got from me and stuff, and I was like, okay, well, that's, you know, I don't know what to believe, right? And we get on that tour, we play like couple gigs, and we're opening for Bob. And then one night after our set, before Bob goes on stage— well, that was when I sat in. Actually, the first time I met him was at the Hollywood Bowl, and I was standing backstage after his set, and my security guy Jim was like, "Here, stand over here." And I just thought, I like I was in the way, like they were gonna move some road cases or something.

But no, Bob was coming off stage in this huge North Face parka, and, uh, right as he was walking by, somebody was like, "Hey, that was a great set, Billy." And he stopped in his tracks, and he was like, "Billy?" And he walked right up to me, and he was like, "Man, thank you for the letter." And I was like, "Man, thank you, Bob, for the music," you know? And he shook my hand.

Oh yeah.

And With his hand? Yeah, with Bob Dylan's hand. He shook my hand, and my hand is like tingling right now just talking about it. Every time I talk about this story, my hand starts tingling. That whole night, it's like vibrating. Um, I shook his hand, and I looked him in the eyes, and he said, you know, thanks for the letter. And I told him, thank you for the music. And and then he walked away.

And did he have a good hand?

He was— yeah, it was a nice little hand. And, uh, yeah, and, uh, that whole night my hand was just tingly. Like, it was, it was like I touched a magic crystal or something, you know? And so now every time I tell this story, it does the same thing. But later that night, I was like, it's either like some crazy beautiful energy, like he's just got this magic, or it's like, you know, some leftover Bengay or something is what I was thinking. Um, yeah. But then, so like the next night on tour, or yeah, a night or two later, we played our set and I'm sitting in the green room and then, uh, I was like smoking a bowl or something and this lady walked in and she's like, Bob wants you to play with him tonight. And I was like, what? And she's like, are you too stoned? And I was like, no, I'm not stoned enough, you know. So I'm like, okay, oh fuck, you guys, it's happening. Bob asked me to sit in. So I'm, I'm like walking out to my bus because I know his band, they all wear black and stuff.

So I was like, I got a black shirt, I can put my hair in a ponytail, get a little bit more classy, blacken up a little, let me darken out. Yeah, for— to get a little bit more classy than whatever t-shirt I had on, right? I'm fixing to play with Bob Dylan. I want to go put a nice shirt on.

Yeah, yeah.

And pull my hair back. And as I was walking out to the bus, I saw him. He was walking right toward me. And he just came up to me and he said, he said, you know, "Let's do 'All Along the Watchtower.'" He's like, just, you know, I'll sing the first verse and second verse, and he'd play after the second verse, you know? And then he walked away. Like, he didn't say hi. He didn't say thanks for playing or nothing. He said, let's do The Watchtower, play after the second verse.

This information.

And then on his way to the stage, and I was like, oh my man, this guy means business.

Yeah.

So I went to my bus, I got my nice digs on, type shit. And then I was, you know, texting my mom and dad. And, you know, I called my mom. I was like, you're not gonna believe this.

What did she say?

She just She was always over the moon about stuff like that. She called me her dreamweaver, is what she called. She's like, who are you gonna play with next? Because so many of her heroes I had met and played with. Or, you know, Mom, I just met Eddie Vedder. Or, you know, Mom, you're not gonna believe this, David Grisman, or, you know, Del McCurry. You know, all this stuff. And then Fleetwood Mac, more recently, uh, Stevie Nicks. I've never met her, but that would be a crazy collab with you guys.

Yeah.

Anyway, go on. Sorry.

Yeah, I was like, I was like, I'm getting ready to go play with Bob Dylan. She's like, what the fuck? You know, like, who, who are you? Like, who do you think you are? It's like, I don't know, he just asked me to play.

So, so yeah, man, I'm your son.

So yeah, I go out there and And it was amazing. I mean, we played— the cool thing about that too is that whole tour, that was my favorite song that they were doing. I mean, I love "All Along the Watchtower," and of course Jimi Hendrix's version, but they had this cool arrangement of it, and it was like such a hip version of it. And I just— that was my favorite tune that they were doing. And that's the one he asked me to play on. It's just like, wow, you know? And so Yeah, he sang, sang the second verse, and then he kind of looked over at me and I played, passed it back to him. We had a little musical conversation, and then I— that was it, man. I played with Bob Dylan. It was like, holy shit, you know? And, and I walked off stage and I go in the green room and like my whole band is like so excited. They're like making toasts and shit. Yeah, you know, especially my bass player Royal is like just been on a huge Bob Dylan kick the last couple years. We just couldn't believe this happened, really.

Shout out Royal.

Yeah. So then, um, yeah, we're sitting in the green room and we're all just like, oh my God, that was amazing. And then, uh, Jim, my security guy, he comes in and he says, um, hey, somebody wants to say hi. And in my green room walks Bob Dylan.

Dang.

And he sucked the oxygen out of the room. It was like everybody just like fell silent and like couldn't breathe. And then he was like, "Man, you know, thanks for playing. Like, that was awesome." And I go, "Man, thank you for having me, man. It was such an honor to play with you, you know." And I was like, "I want to introduce you to my band. You know, this is Royal and Billy and stuff like that." And then I, you know, he just like turned around and walked away. Like, I was like, "What?" No way, dude. And then, uh, a couple days after—

Busy Bob, dude.

Dude, he dipped. He was, he was like— and then just left.

Yeah.

And then, um, and we loved it. I thought it was amazing.

Oh, it's fucking almost— probably almost— it's even better. Yeah, that's the most lore shit you could do, dude.

He just literally— I was like, I want you to introduce you to my band, and he just turned around and left. I was like, wow.

Yeah.

What a badass. And then so, yes, dude, a couple nights later, um, he sent me a message, um, through one of his managers, and it just said, you know, thanks for playing, like, I think you're great. And, um, he said, like my friend Jerry Lee told me a long time ago, he said, you're gonna be around for a long, long time. And I just, man, I like was in the back of my bus like reading this and just cried, you know. I mean, this is Bob Dylan kind of patting me on the back.

And so first of all, it's unbelievable, dude. It's such a great story. It's like I can feel it, dude. It's almost like I'm like, yeah, dude.

Well, I know one of the craziest things is that the few interactions I had with them, which was like 3 or 4 over the course of a couple days, And I talked to him and I looked at his face and I spoke directly to him and I looked in his eyes. I can't picture his face. I can't picture— I didn't see the skin. When I think about him, what he looked like, all I see is these deep oceans of blue and these deep concern— concerning eyes and this like white light behind them. That's what I picture when I think about what did Bob Dylan look like to me. All I can see is these, the deepest, bluest eyes with the most concerning emotion in them. And then this like aura of like white light. That's what Bob looks like to me in my memory. Yeah, I can't, I can't remember his face, right?

You know, like, yeah, like it's almost something that's like, uh, almost like maybe from another realm or something. Like, I think God— yeah, like God's concern like shows up in our eyes, I think. So maybe he just has a lot of like concern from the other side, you know?

Yeah, and it's, it's not a, um, a paranoid concern. It's more of like a compassion and and a, like, like a love, like from an elder, you know?

Yeah, maybe like in a kind of semi-aggressive intrigue, kind of like a—

some kind of musical grandpa, you know?

Yeah, dude, Bob Dylan, bro. Wow.

Yeah, yeah, it's a trip. And then like a little while after that, I got to play and make music in the studio with Edgar Winter and And he was like one of my mom's favorites, you know, him and Edgar Winter.

And who else?

Yeah, well, Johnny Winter, his brother.

Johnny Winter, bring up a picture of these guys. Let me get a gander at them.

Yeah, they look like, um— oh wow, they kind of look like, uh, Targaryens, man. They're albino.

Yeah, he looks like Sia a little bit. You know who Sia is?

No.

But Johnny Winter is one of the best guitar players to ever live, man.

Oh my gosh, he's one of the best.

Little skinny scrawny albino dude, and he You know, he played with Muddy Waters and all sorts of shit. He was one of the best blues players ever, man. Played with the slide, played, you know, acoustic, everything. But he was— he's the man. And then Edgar Winter, you know, you've heard like, "Free ride." You know, that's his jam. And then you remember, so Edgar Winter had a huge hit that was an instrumental song called "Frankenstein." You ever remember that? That's Edgar Winter, man. And the cool thing about that is that—

Did you get to talk to him?

Yeah, no, he's actually become a good friend of mine. He came and played with us at Bridgestone Arena when we played, and we were in the studio for like a day or two working on some stuff for his record that's going to come out at some point. But yeah, Edgar Winter is one of the sweetest, sweetest people.

Wow.

And Johnny— Johnny's alive too?

He passed away. Um, when did he pass away? Like 2012 or maybe a little bit after that. 2014. Yeah, 2014.

Oh, they're Switz, huh?

Well, no, he— that's where he died is in Switzerland. They're from Texas. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. He was on the road.

Wow.

I think he died in his hotel room. Oh yeah, that was my— that was my mom's dog right there.

Really?

She loved him.

I'm gonna have to listen to some of their music today in honor of her, dude, on our ride later.

Yeah, listen to like just the self-titled Johnny Winter album from 1969, um, and then for Edgar Winter, listen to White Trash. Like, it's just some of the funkiest stuff you're ever gonna hear, man. They got this one tune, it's the first track on the record called "Give It Everything You Got." And I remember I was tripping hard on acid one day, and I was down by the river and I slipped and I fell down this mud bank and I landed like waist deep in the water and I was just splashing. It was also October in Michigan, it was kind of cold.

Yeah.

But I got out and I climbed back up the bank and I was soaking wet, but I didn't feel wet.

Oh yeah. 'Cause I just, I think my brain was wet Oh yeah, because you were having a good time.

Yeah, I was already tripping. And so I walk home and I'm sopping in, you know, I walk in my mom's back door and, uh, she's like, what are you doing? I was like, well, I took some acid and I went and fell in the river. She's like, oh, you're on acid? And she drops the needle on Give It Everything You Got. She put that record on for me to hear, and I just sat there in front of the speakers and I listened to that. And when the song ended, I moved I moved the needle back over and I listened to it again and I listened to it again. I just, I was in this loop of "Give It Everything You Got." There's these crazy saxophone solos and everything's panned stereo and it goes right to left and it's just, dude, it's, it's so good. That whole album is good. And there's a couple tunes on there called, one called "Fly Away" that I can hardly listen to without crying because it was one of my mom's songs and it really reminds me of her.

That's called— and that's the Johnny Winters album?

Uh, that's the Edgar Winter album called White Trash.

White Trash. Yeah.

And then the Johnny Winter record is just— it's just called Johnny Winter.

Yeah, dude, what a crazy pair of brothers they must have been. Can you even imagine?

Oh man, they were, they were really musical, you know. And Edgar's— he's amazing. I wish I would have been able to meet Johnny, but, you know, I've, I've listened to a lot of his music and, um, I just love him dearly. I mean, gosh, so I feel so lucky to have been exposed to good music like that from my parents. You know, they, as far as I'm concerned, man, they listen to good music and they taught me about it, you know. And so that's the thing, is like when I was in middle school and stuff, I mean, I don't know what kids were listening to back then. I wasn't listening to that. I was listening to, you know, John Lennon or whatever. My teachers always thought I was kind of like, who is this kid, man? He's like wearing a Jim Morrison t-shirt, you know?

Like, what's he doing?

Yeah, yeah.

Like, how does this end?

And I'm like going to the library like trying to find books about like Janis Joplin and stuff, and I'm just like in 6th grade or whatever. Yeah, some of my teachers thought that was really cool, the ones that were like around in the '60s and stuff, the older cats. Yeah, I used to get like— I almost want to say like special treatment or something because of that. Because like some of my teachers that were old hippies, they're like, man, this cat's sick.

Oh dude, yeah, if your teacher— if they— if you're— if you're into something that they're into, kind of, or they think there's something a little bit different about you, I think it makes sense that a teacher would be like, oh, this kid's cool, there's something going on with this kid, I'm curious to see. Like we had this teacher named Miss Plesh, and she was cool, man. She was like our poetry teacher, and we'd go in there and it was like all the misfit kind of kids were in there, and you'd have like like, you know, people that just wore extra lipstick on different parts of their face and shit. And like, um, and, uh, and we go in there and we got to write poetry. And it was kind of this weird group, like, well, not weird, but it was just like this, like, um, I don't know, it was this group of— it was just different than the norm. And it was like a place where it felt like, okay, I could share how I feel. There wasn't any other place in school really to do that, like, in regular school, you know, like, unless you were talking like one-on-one with a buddy.

But just like to go in there and write poems and like think of things together. And you go in there and like they'd have a lot of like some, some kids that were in kind of like— I don't want to say school shooty garb or whatever, but just like, you know, we'd have like kids wearing like, uh, I'm trying to think of, um, it'd be like sometimes like trench coaty or let's like big combat boots and stuff. Yeah, combat boots, dude. Or we'd have like Doc Martens, right? And the higher the Doc Marten, like, kind of the— like, it got to a level where it was like normal, kind of wild, and then just like— and then like someone was like kind of perverse or whatever. I think a little bit like way up to the thigh. Yeah, like way up to the cooter even, you know? It was like, damn, dude, you definitely ain't no hood hopper.

Yeah, yeah, bro, you ain't no ranker.

But it would just be like, I don't know, and and then you'd see like a— they'd have like a hippie girl in there who never wore a bra, and that would make you fucking go to class every single day, bro, because you could just— if you closed your eyes, you could just hear her tits, you know? Like, it was just that age. Remember when you had that much hormones when you were in high school? If you closed your eyes, you could just hear somebody's tits, dude.

Yeah, fuck. Yeah, they sound so soft.

Oh, welcome to Ohio, brother. Yeah, I just feel like that's the most Ohio thing ever. Dude, thanks so much, man. I'm excited about your new album. Can you just tell me like one or two things about it? I've read somewhere that it's in honor of your mother.

Yeah, you know, I think a lot of it, you know, I was writing when shortly after she passed and stuff. So yeah, it's kind of dedicated to her and it's kind of an interesting thing. I mean, I I kept wanting to call it "So Much for Goodbyes," and I just, I was thinking about that for a while. And because I didn't get a chance to say goodbye to my mother, so that's kind of how I thought about it. I was like, well, so much for goodbyes, you know, I guess I'm not going to get a chance to say bye. And when I brought it up to my manager, I said, I think I'm going to call the record "So Much for Goodbyes." And he was like, man, that's cool. It's like, you know, because it's not really goodbye, it's just like farewell for now, right? And I was like, that's not really how I was thinking of it. But yeah, that's kind of more positive thing.

Um, yeah, like, so much for goodbyes. Like, it doesn't even— that doesn't matter.

Yeah, because it's, you know, she's still kind of with me no matter what.

Oh, I'm sure she's hitchhiking, dude. She might have just got tired of kind of rocking around this galaxy. She might have just been hitchhiking out there.

She's probably in Sedona somewhere in some, you know—

oh, she's probably freaking nested up in a wind chime somewhere, fucking living it up. Yeah, totally. But I do believe that when we think about other people and we speak their name out loud, when we make music for them, when we pray for them, I believe that people can feel all of that.

Yeah.

I don't really even doubt it because it just feels so bigger than us.

Yeah. Right after she died, there were so many little things that I would feel, just these like certain animals would come around or whatever, and like a dragonfly, or I'd see a doe with like two fawns, and I'm like, man, it would just break my heart, you know what I mean? It's like, that's my mom and that's me and my brother, or whatever, you know? And it— for a minute there, it was like pissing me off. It's like, I don't want a fucking dragonfly, like, I want my mom, you know? Yeah, like, fuck that dragonfly, you know? But now I like, I look for those things you know, a cloud or whatever it is, just the way the breeze feels. But my mom, she was an amazing artist. She would constantly be calling me saying, "Hey, I took this hubcap and glued this to that, and I made this little alien, you know, battle, and I did this." And, you know, and so she always made this stuff. And this was actually the piece that she was working on the night that she died. Because she was always going to make the next record cover.

That was kind of our deal. So this thing that's in the frame with the hand and the little crystal ball and stuff like that, it was unfinished. So we kind of filled the back in with some portraits and stuff like that. But this was the last piece that she was working on.

Right on.

And it kind of encapsulated— it really encapsulated You know, it gives her essence of just kind of how she was. I mean, she was like a million little things all glued together and very iridescent. And so that's the art that we chose for the COVID And, you know, she got to make the record cover like she wanted to. So stoked on that. And yeah, the songs, I think a lot of them are about just kind of what I was feeling at the time. And, you know, there's a tune on there called "Wrestling an Angel." There's one called "Still I Crash," which is like pretty much me exactly. I think I wrote that like days after she passed, just like me speaking to her, you know, talking about how I just feel like I'm— I gotta learn how to walk all over again, you know. I feel like a baby deer and my legs are all wobbly and I'm just trying to learn how to stand up on my own this time, you know, without her. And it's, you know, so it's a pretty deep record, but there's some good stuff on there. You know, there's some bluegrass on there and that Milltown Flood, that's like a real— there's like some real characters that really were from Muir back in the day and stuff.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, I grew up in Muir, Michigan, which is like—

Yeah, I remember you talking about that.

Yeah. It's like there's like 600 people that live there or something. And nowadays it's kind of like a little, just a tiny little town, doesn't have that much poppin'. But back in the 1800s, it was like kind of poppin', you know, like there was like this whole little strip and they had these gristlemills and sawmills, and they would float the logs down the Grand River down to the sawmill, and then they'd chop it all up, and then And when the railroad came through there, then they could put all that lumber on the railroad and ship it out to Milwaukee or whatever. Yeah. And so it was a hustling little place. There was this guy named Darwin Lyon. He was the station agent at the Grand Trunk Railroad's Montrose station, which was later named Muir. But yeah, so he was the station agent there in Muir. And this family, the Blanchard family, was like some of the first people that like settled there and started, you know, making shit happen. And so I like used some of those characters and then kind of made this like sort of fictional story about some actual nonfictional characters, you know.

So I like that tune. I think that was a cool thing. I've been infatuated with the history of the area, just the Grand River Valley.

Well, I know you have a concert, you have your Freak Fair, is it Freak Fest?

The Ionia Freak Fair, yeah.

Yeah, Ionia Freak Fair. And that's something you started, right?

Yeah.

Yeah. But I just think it's awesome to create something that people from your area can be a part of.

Oh man, I've been trying to do this for years. I've been wanting to bring a festival to my hometown for a while now. But yeah, we got a bunch of good bands coming, uh, you know, Green Sky, Leftover Salmon, Sierra Hall, Michael Cleveland and the Flamekeeper. Yep, Lindsey Lou. And then we're gonna have like, um, this tent where we're gonna have some metal bands: Bane, Cryptopsy, Flesh and Blood Robots, See You Next Tuesday, For the Fallen Dreams. Some of these bands I used to run around with, uh, back in the day when I played in metal bands and stuff.

Oh, Full Chord.

Yeah, dude, that's so cool, bro.

What a great thing to just bring to your area, just a great weekend of music.

It's gonna be sick.

Um, that's like in two— that's like in freaking 2 weeks.

Yeah, man, it's gonna be awesome.

Hell yeah. Yeah, dude, thanks so much, man, just for catching up today and stuff, for inviting us here, like, just to be in Grand Rapids, like Um, it's cool, man. I remember when I came here, uh, we did a show here and it was great. I actually have a friend named Paul that lives here that I just realized on the way in town. I don't know if I'm gonna be able to get to see him, but, um, love you, Paul. I remember when I used to work— he and I was dishwasher, he and I was on busboys at this restaurant, and I found an Abbey Road cassette tape. It was the first time I'd ever heard the Beatles, and I put it in my— in my— I had '84 Ford Escort. I put it in there, dude, and I listened to that for probably 3 years, dude.

Yeah, I just saw your film Busboys.

Oh, you saw it?

Yeah, I loved it.

Did you?

Yeah, I laughed my ass off, dude. So I didn't know you were an actual busboy at one point.

Oh yeah, bro, I was in the trenches, dude. I was one of the first busboys to use creatine regularly. I was, man. We fucking did a good job on it. Bro, there wasn't a fucking dish, dude. I'll say this, west of the Mississippi, there wasn't a dish that I couldn't, that I couldn't fuck with. Yeah, I was fucking good, bro. I was good. I loved it so much. And then I think I got caught up in drugs, that brought me down a little bit.

Was it really like that though? Like the, the servers were like all hot shit?

Oh yeah, like they were good looking and shit, and they would all fuck or whatever, and you couldn't and you like— they looked at you like you couldn't even hold their condoms or whatever.

Oh man, it was just so trash, dude.

Dang it.

I know. But yeah, dude, and we had a dude, bro, we had this dude named, um, Todd. He was— they— he was like part of some work release program there in Arizona. That's where I did it at. And he would fucking be— they had a chain, he would be chained like this fucking pizza oven that he was over there working. But they had like a 6-foot chain that he— so he couldn't leave like the area or whatever. Dude, our freaking chef got busted for buying illegal shrimp one day. Like the— like I guess the food and beverage, like if you go high enough in that department, some of them get guns or whatever, cuz they came running in, bro, kicked open the back door, they had everybody on the ground, and they like busted the place for like buying illegal shrimp, camarones. And I was like, what the fuck is going on? Wow. But yeah, bro, thanks for checking it out, dude. It was a— it was a It was crazy to make it, dude. We went through so much. Yeah, but I think I would do something fun again like that, dude.

You should.

It was awesome, man.

Yeah, I love that we did it all ourselves.

Yeah, yeah.

And to make a film with David Spade is probably a— oh dude, dream come true, right?

I can't even—

I mean, we all grew up on fucking Joe Dirt.

Oh dude, he shot— he did Joe Dirt, uh, I think they did Joe Dirt 2. And they shot it in Covington, Louisiana, which is oddly enough the town that I grew up in.

No shit.

Yeah.

And then years later and I, he became friends and he's shooting Grown Ups 3 right now out of New Jersey.

But dude, I used to love just how just mean everybody is to Joe Dirt. He was such bullshit. Like the very first scene, he like pulls up and, you know, the guy's like, why don't you just drive this piece of shit off a cliff and do us all a favor? You know, and then Kid Rock's like such a dick to him.

Leopard fucking sucks. Yeah, yeah, dude. And the crazy part is, is, uh, that, that them knowing each other is one of the reasons that I even got to meet, uh, Kid Rock. So it's just, it just, I don't know, life's the weirdest thing, isn't it?

It is weird, isn't it?

The weirdest thing.

I mean, yeah, it's I feel like my life definitely is, but I feel like probably everybody feels that way. Yeah, um, I think it's true.

I think if you get out and try and just push yourself into life, that there's like—

things happen. Yes, these pathways, they connect, and there's, there's all these circles that eventually you run back into the other side of that other circle or something, you know?

Yeah.

Dreams get weaved, man.

Yeah, yeah, dreams get weaved, dude.

Um, if you feel comfortable, you want to play a song for us on the way out?

Sure.

Is there something, um, I want to ask you too? I have a couple questions really quick. We have a quick segment that we do with Mountain Dew since you brought it up so many times. Can I ask you one or two questions?

Yeah, yeah. All right, what should I give this try, bro?

Yeah, it's sugar-free.

I haven't had Mountain Dew in fucking years.

Here you go.

Yeah, hell yeah, it's good. Wow, it's been— that's a blast from the past. Not even Baja, just regular.

Remember when they came out with Code Red, dude, and people were like, this is for Valentine's only, or whatever, like rich people or whatever?

Yeah, Code Red is like like fucking— that's like chewing Five Gum.

Yeah, well, it's good.

No sugar, don't even have to worry about it.

That zero sugar is kind of a vibe too. Same feeling, no sugar.

It actually just tastes like Mountain Dew.

Yeah. Um, did you ever go to summer camp?

No, I never went to summer camp. Um, I don't even know I didn't even know that was an option. Yeah, but I did one time. Our school, um, when I was in like 6th grade, I think, took us to like this like winter camp. And that was like, you know, we were all like sledding and shit. And I remember me and Mike Borton and Travis Rogers were always trying to go like sneak over and see these girls in their cabin and shit. I remember like like, who was it back in the day? Marisa Smith. Oh God, Anna Conrad. And, uh, like Risha Ranucci and stuff.

Oh, the Ranucci girls were dimes, bro. I don't know them, but I just know I could only imagine, and I like to imagine, you know?

So I had a big crush on, uh, Marisa Smith, but I was too shy. And bro, just way too shy, bro.

Dude, I had a freaking crush on this one girl Um, this one girl, Amanda, dude, I had the fucking biggest crush on her. This girl, I had a crush on her, dude. And I only— only thing I could do, I drew pictures of her on my wall at home all the time. And my mom got so pissed, you know. My mom ended up spanking me pretty bad for it one time.

Wow.

And it was so sad because I was like, I like loved her so much, and then I would just ended up getting like spanked forward or whatever, or beaten or whatever. I don't say beaten because you can't say it anymore, but we used to call it beaten. So, but dang, yeah, winter camp.

Yeah, never, never— yeah, winter camp, that's kind of what it was. But a couple of my friends, uh, my friend Matt and my friend Brendan just dropped their kids off for summer camp just recently.

Yeah.

And so they're, they're out there having fun.

Yeah, dude, I wish I'd have gone to summer camp. We, we went to like YMCA summer camp, but everybody got really bad allergies. I think the field they put us in was like the worst.

Pollen field?

Yes, it was like— it was just like right on the edge of a pine forest, and like the whole thing was just so much pollen. And people— you try to play kickball, but like 2 minutes into the game, people couldn't even see or play. Like, it was people just standing around in the sun. Dude, I remember this one kid, his allergies would get so bad he would just put his hands straight up in the air. Almost like the cops were— like the cops were getting him or whatever. But dude, it would be so bad. And then we had to eat these hot lunches because there was nowhere to keep our lunches cold. So we'd eat like these, like, just like bologna and cheese, like— and it was just like, you would just sweat all day. And then your mom would finally come get you. Like, in the beginning you would be excited, and at the end you'd be like, please Mom, come get me. And they had one kid who was kind of like mentally challenged or whatever, but he would do— he would moonwalk all day. And in the morning everybody's like, you're a loser.

But by the end of the— end of the day, everybody's just like watching him dance.

Oh yeah.

Um, if you were doing a road trip— this is the last question I have— if you were doing a road trip, what small town, uh, would you go to, or would you suggest someone go to?

Oh, I have to think about this for a moment.

Is there a nice one in Michigan? I know there are, but is there a nice one that you suggest?

I mean, oh, like, I mean, there's so many small towns around here. Like, if you drive in any direction, you're gonna find like these tiny little towns that have been there for ages, but they're just tiny. Like, there's one called Sparta. You know, Greenville, Belding and stuff. But honestly, Ionia is a nice one. I was going to say Muir, you know, but that's— I'm obviously biased, but that's okay. It's a beautiful place. I mean, it's the Maple River runs through there and it's a tiny little town. There's some history there. There's not much there. You might get all the copper wires stolen out of your vehicle or something.

Good. They need it. Yeah, Village of Muir right there, show it to me. Well dude, my town Covington, Louisiana is a small town, but dude, I went back not long ago and I was just walking around downtown. It's great. Yeah, there's a lot of like nice— like first of all, there's a lot of great people and it's, it's changing. And I didn't, I didn't know if I expected that when I was growing up there. Like it's always been a place with like great storytelling and just like, like kind of mystery and stuff like that and intrigue. Week, but it's turned into like the most beautiful little town. Village of Muir, right there. Is that you right there, Billy?

That is, yeah. Stop. They put this sign up that says, nah, hometown of Grammy winner Billy Strings. It says 2021, but they need to put 3-time on there now.

Let's update that sign, Muir. I'm gonna donate to the coffers over there in Muir so they have enough money to update that sign, dude. No joke, we're gonna reach out to the, uh, we're gonna reach out to the city council over there and see if we can't get that updated, dude.

That's awesome. We could buy the, you know, Village Market and turn it into a titty bar or something. I think that'd be probably a good venture.

Oh yeah, as long as we keep someone like the produce section or something. I mean, I want people to still be able to get fresh stuff.

Yeah, hell yeah.

You know? Yeah, because I'm not saying the cities won't be fresh, but you know, it's TBD, man.

Yeah, I mean, it'll be something. There might be some kind of pirate-esque kind of things going on.

Yeah, yeah, dude. Um, yeah, you want to— you want to play one on the way out first, Billy? You don't feel like you have to though. We can also just call it a day.

Yeah, I'd love to, man.

Would you really, dude? Yeah, let's go.

Heck yeah, dude! Yeah, man, uh, let's see. I was thinking about this tune because we were talking about the Village Market and It kind of made me hungry.

Yeah?

Yeah. So, uh, maybe we'll go get something to eat after this, but this will get us in the mood. All right. Shoulder up the gun and whistle up the dog.

Shoulder up the gun and whistle up the dog. Off to the woods for to catch a groundhog. Oh, groundhog.

Run, Hearsell, with a snicker and a grin.

Run, Hearsell, with a snicker and a grin. Groundhog grease all over her chin. Oh, groundhog. Run here, Sal, with a 10-foot pole. Around here, Sally, with a 10-foot pole, twist that whistle pig out of his hole. Oh, Groundhog! There's meat in the cupboard and butter in the churn. Meat in the cupboard and butter in the churn. If that ain't Groundhog, I'll be darned. Oh, Groundhog!

There's a little piece of cornbread laying on the shelf.

Little piece of cornbread laying on the shelf.

You want any more, you can take it yourself.

Oh, brown horse. Gonna eat up the meat and save the hide. Eat up the meat and save the hide.

The best damn shoestring that ever was tied.

Oh, Groundhog! Ah, look at the fellas, they're about to fall. Look at the fellas, they're It's about to fall, they tell the britches won't button at all. Oh, Groundhog. Shoulder up the gun and whistle up the dog. Load her up the gun and whistle up the dog, off to the woods for to catch a groundhog. Oh, Brown Hog. Oh, Brown Hog. Oh, Brown Hog.

Let's go, Groundhog Baby!

God, you think they're good?

Would you try one? Yeah, I would too.

Got hog in it, you know. It's not probably— well, you know, I'd go in there with a bacon mindset, probably, to be honest with you. I'd hate that.

Yeah, I bet they're nice and greasy.

They kind of get off easy though, having hog in their name. And not being accosted for it, not being put in that place.

Heck yeah.

Thank you, dude.

Thank you, man. Appreciate you, brother. Thank you.

I appreciate you too, man. Thank you so much.

Of course.

Anything else that you want to talk about or anything else you want to play? Do you feel like—

I could try one off the new record.

Yeah, if you feel okay, but you don't feel like you have to.

Let's see. So, you know, I was talking about Muir and how I just get kind of obsessed with that place and just that whole Grand River Valley there. And you ever go driving through your old hometown and just like look at your old haunts and just kind of get flooded with these memories? I'm one of those like real nostalgic types.

Oh, I love nostalgia, man.

Yeah, so I have this tune that's called that.

It's called "I'm One of Those." looking for the place I used to live. I've been driving up and down this road trying to bring back old memories. For one reason or another, I let go. I'm one of those. I'm looking for the turn where the river used to make a bend. But it's been too long and I'm a fool to try to find that place again. I'm one of those, guess I have too much time on my hands. I'm one of those, I could not find a place that I can land. I hope you don't, but if you do, you'll probably understand that's how it goes. I'm one of those. I've got a thing for shuffling the deck, leaving town in the COVID of for the night. It turns out the ties that bind me, if I don't, I know I'll end up in a fight.

Now could I go back to the place I love to dwell, where we sang our song and passed the jug around.

Well, I wave to all the ghosts that wander back across this road I'm strolling down. I'm one of those. I guess I have too much time on my hands. I'm one of those. I could not find a place that I could land. I hope you don't, but if you do, you'll probably understand. That's how it goes. I'm one of those. Let's go! Let's go! I still pretend. And if I went and left you crying, I might have to circle back this way again. I'm one of those. Guess I have too much time on my hands. I'm one of those. I could not find a place that I could land. I hope you don't. But if you do, you'll probably understand that's how it goes. I'm one of those. I'm one of those.

I'm one of those, man. Dude, that's magnificent, bro.

Oh, thanks, man.

Thank you so much, man.

So Much for Goodbye.

So Much for Goodbyes comes out August 28th. Yeah. Um, dude, that's so exciting, man. Dude, I'm one of those, man. I'm one of those. Sometimes I spent so much time in the past, I'm not— I just don't, you know. Yeah, but at a certain point you start missing out too much.

Yeah, I know.

You got to look through the windshield, you know, instead of in the rearview all the time.

Yeah, they say that's why it's bigger. Somebody said that. I don't know who said that.

Yeah.

Oh, Barry, you like licking Daddy's hand and giving everybody kisses? Yeah, this thing just— it's the best date I've been on in a while.

Just—

So Much for Goodbyes, that's out August 28th, man, with your mom's beautiful artwork right there.

Yeah.

What a creative lady. What a creative family, man. You know?

Hell yeah.

What a creative family that you're a part of.

And, uh, I'm trying to think, on the first one I did Cocaine Blues. Cocaine.

Cocaine.

There is this little one though I could add on there, even just for fun since we're sitting here.

All right.

I've got the blues, those Nashville blues. I've got the blues, the Nashville blues. I ain't got no help. I ain't got no shoes. These people here, they treat me fine. These people here, they treat me fine. They feed me beer and they feed me wine. 'Cause I've got the blues, those Nashville blues. I've got the blues, those Nashville blues. I ain't got no hat, ain't got no shoes. I'm going back to Arkansas. I'm gonna stay right there with my Ma and Pa. 'Cause I've got the blues, those Nashville blues. I've got the blues, those Nashville blues. I ain't got no hat, ain't got no shoes. Oh! I've got the blues, those Nashville blues. I've got the blues, those Nashville blues. Ain't got no hat, ain't got no shoes.

So much for goodbyes, man.

I ain't got no hat or shoes, Bear.

He don't got no shoes or no hat. He don't even have a collar on right now.

Oh, what a pleasure, man. Dude, Billy, thank you so much, bro. Thanks for coming. This is, man, just what a gift today to be able to just sit and spend time with you, to, um, kind of go through whatever's been happening in your life. And you just share stories so well, man. You're just like, I don't know, you're like a poor— you're kind of like this connector piece to the other side, man. And it's nice.

So thank you, man. Well, I appreciate it, and I'm glad, I'm glad you're doing this road trip, man, and was able to swing on up through my stomping grounds a little bit. It's kind of nice to to have you here in Grand Rapids, man.

Yeah, we appreciate it, man. And, uh, yeah, and good luck with, uh, Freak Fest. Yeah, um, yeah, and good luck with Freak Fest and, um, Billy Strings, man. Can't thank you enough, dude. All right, I can't thank you enough.

Keep your stick on the ice. Yeah, don't let your meatloaf— watch your top knot. Keep it greasy side down.

Yeah, greasy side. Oh, I think both sides are greasy, but we'll do our best, man.

If you ain't in bed by midnight, come home. Yeah, stay out of the tall weeds.

Yeah. You're a gift to this world, man, and you're a gift to us today. Thank you so much, brother.

Thank you. Alrighty.

Now I'm just floating on the breeze and I feel I'm falling like these leaves, I must be cornerstone. Oh, but when I reach that ground, I'll share this peace of mind I found. I can feel it in my bones, but it's gonna take a little