Retired U.S. Navy fighter pilot and Medal of Honor recipient Royce Williams recounts his life, from a Depression-era childhood in South Dakota and Minnesota to his wartime flight training.
The core of the conversation is his November 1952 dogfight with Soviet-piloted MiG-15s over the Sea of Japan, a roughly 35-minute battle that stayed classified for decades and that he describes in detail, including his damaged landing. Williams also discusses service in Korea and Vietnam, his later prisoner of war programs work, and the 2026 Medal of Honor he received at 100.
Listeners hear his firsthand account, with his claims about official secrecy attributed to him.
In this episode Shawn Ryan, Royce Williams
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Captain Royce Williams?
Yes, sir.
Welcome to the show, sir.
Thank you, kindly.
This is, uh, truly an honor to be able to do this.
Oh, thank you.
So.
I'm so pleased.
It's, um, yeah, it's a real honor to, uh, document you guys' stories and, and, uh, especially yours. So this is an incredible, uh, career you've had, and, um, and, uh, you know, the, the journey to the Medal of Honor you received is, is just amazing. So it is truly an honor to have you here, and, uh, and to be able to document your story. So if you don't mind, I'd like to start you off with an introduction.
Very good.
Captain Royce Williams, you're a decorated U.S. Navy fighter pilot whose life and career spanned over the Great Depression, World War II, the Cold War, Korea, Vietnam, and the collapse of the Soviet Union. On November 18, 1952, you fought a gang of Soviet, Soviet MiG-15s over the Sea of Japan for 35 minutes in what the Navy has called the longest dogfight in U.S. military history. After serving for 37 years, involving 227 combat missions, 518 carrier landings, and over 4,500 flight hours, you retired from the Navy as a captain in, in 1980.
The true story of that flight remained classified for decades because of direct Soviet involvement. In 2026, at 100 years old, you were finally awarded the Medal of Honor. And from my understanding, that went from a Silver Star to a Navy Cross to the Medal of Honor.
It did.
Wow. And so, like I said, it's, it's an honor to have you here today. So.
Thank you.
I got you a couple of gifts. So one, everybody gets a gift. A little something for the flight home. Those are Vigilance Elite gummy bears.
Uh-huh. Thank you.
Made in the USA.
Uh-huh. Not China.
Not China. And the second gift, also made in the USA, is, you know, pilots always love pistols. I don't know how they are with rifles, but.
Yes, indeed.
This is the Sig Sauer P365 Macro, ported slide up front, recoil management, and, uh, here you go.
That's a light.
Not bad, huh?
Yeah, it's something. For me, my age and withering, uh, I had trouble with holding something, but this is sweet.
Well, you got a young Marine out there that can help you too. But, uh.
We've got one that I see quite often named Ted, who's a famous sniper.
Oh, really?
And really, he's written numerous books. He owned several security organizations. Um, he's, he's a stud. And, uh, has his own firing range and so forth over in the desert. And.
Wow.
I see him, uh, at some of the groupie things that I go with. This is so nice.
Well, I got a friend named Jason over at Sig Sauer, and I told him you were coming on, and he was ecstatic and wanted me to give that to you. So.
Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you.
My pleasure.
So I would like to, in a way, reciprocate.
Okay.
I, uh, have a hat here. And behind it, a big anticlave. For you, sir.
Thank you.
And then, yeah, that, uh, is the more important part of it all. Mm-hmm.
Incredible. Oh, wow. Thank you.
Surely.
I'll read this after the show. Is that okay?
Okay. Fair enough.
Oh, man. This is incredible. A Medal of Honor decanter, Royce Williams, Captain U.S. Navy, and a set of whiskey glasses.
Mm-hmm. Exactly.
Beautiful. Thank you.
Hope you like it.
I have, uh, I've never even seen a Medal of Honor in person.
Well, I'm just recently aware of it.
How did that feel to go from Navy, from a Navy Silver Star to a Navy Cross to a Medal of Honor at 100 years old?
It felt fabulous. And, and as much as the story oflies to eventually the exposure that the, uh, Soviets made of revealing what really happened. Um, I'm kind of a military kid. My dad was World War I, and big in the American Legion in a little town in South Dakota, where we had veterans from the Civil War, Spanish-American War, Mexican-American War, and World War I.
Wow.
And, uh, my brother and I, um, had gray uniforms and, uh, attended a lot of the meetings and so forth, watched some of the movies, All Squad and the Western Front, from the time we were probably eight years old. And it had a lot to do, I think, with what we did when we grew up.
Your father, your dad, he was a, a World War I veteran, correct?
Yes. Yes. And, and the, uh, hmm, the Army of, uh, ah, they followed on after the combat. Army, uh, anyway, great story. Um, he had a .45 pistol. He was a machine gunner. But he was standing and watched at a small town where people were hungry, and there was a wild boar running down the street half a block away.
And the people yelling at him to shoot it, shoot it. And he took this .45 out, which is hard to shoot anyway, and he wasn't good at it, and he nailed it. And they all had a big dinner.
Oh, man. And your, your dad actually, did he try to enlist or commission for World War II?
He, I, I suppose was drafted for it. I don't know. But he tried. Oh, for World War II, yes, he tried to get back in. And they wouldn't accept him. Of course, logistics wins wars. And he was very much a part of logistics. Work, work, he had a grocery business. They turned over to women, and he went out on the farm and other tough jobs.
You know, you grew up during the Great Depression.
Yes, indeed.
Can you talk about that a little bit?
Oh, yes. Um, cut down on variation. Just same old, same old. Um, one of my sisters one evening said, "Soup again?" And we always had that. Being in the grocery business, you have vegetables and fruit and so forth. It's spoiled. So when it gets to where you can't sell it, then we eat it.
My wife, mother cans it and whatever. But, uh, my dad was just a super nice guy. And there were people worse off than him, and some of them were large families. And the way the business went then, everything that was sold, when it was more than a candy item, would be written down on a pad and totaled. And a lot of them couldn't pay it, but the books piled up.
And after a while, he said to me, "Royce, if you can collect anything on here, it's yours." He just basically donated it.
No kidding. What a hell of a guy.
Yeah. Wow. He was.
How old were you when, uh, the Great Depression hit?
Oh, I started, I suppose, about four years old.
Four years old.
And one of the first things, uh, Herbert Hoover was president, and it hit me hard. I had $5 in the bank, and it disappeared. And $5 then was probably a couple hundred today. Work on the farm 18 hours in the heat and all, up early and working late, $1. So I'm making $27 a month, and I gave up that job to be shot at for $23 a month in the Army.
Did you, before we moved.
And put $18 of that in the bank.
What did you spend the money on?
Hershey wire.
And before you, before we get to your military service, you met your wife at 11 years old.
Yes.
How did you guys meet?
In Sunday school. First day we moved from South Dakota to Minnesota because my dad modified the building he bought there on Main Street. Grocery up front, and, uh, our quarters in the back. And when it was ready, we drove over, and the first Sunday, there she was in Sunday school. Cute and loving and lovely lady.
Did you talk to her first?
Oh, yeah.
What did you say? Do you remember?
No, no. I was, I was pretty timid. So it was one of maybe 10 kids in the Sunday school class. And, uh, we were just sitting there with my brother also. New guys. And, uh, it took us some time to open up and talk to everybody.
And you, let's move to your military service. Why did you decide to join the military?
Oh, gosh. It was built in. What I had done up to then, my interest in the American Legion, I just felt. And, um, also, I was big in scouting, and it seemed hand in glove. Nation needed you. Um, so about two months after Pearl Harbor, I, I enlisted in the Minnesota Guard, which was nationalized.
And, uh, I had two cousins in it that were killed in North Africa.
They were killed in North Africa.
Mm-hmm.
What was the, you know, what was the sentiment of the country after Pearl Harbor happened?
Well, it was immediate, and it was solid. Uh, even, uh, a German family that, uh, were sort of rebels in World War I were on board for this one. And, um, everybody had a piece of something. A lot of them started out by saving paper. And, uh, even with chewing gum, taking the, the silver part out and watering it separate, everything was being saved.
And everyone had to hand it. And it didn't take long before you go down the street and you look in the window, there's either a blue flag or a star or a gold star. They, they donated. They gave what they could.
Everybody was pitching in one way or another.
Everybody was pitching. It was just common.
Were a lot of people enlisting at that time?
Yes.
Everybody wanted to serve the country?
Yes. Yes, yes. Yeah. And I really don't know. Except people that were like me, uh, the Guard got nationalized immediately. They were in. There was no volunteering or anything. They were already a part of it, and they weren't conscripted. But there was conscription, but an awful lot of volunteering. And people getting in line to volunteer.
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So check out the Megyn Kelly Show on YouTube and on all podcast platforms. What did you want to, what did you want to do in the military?
I wanted to fly off aircraft carriers.
Where did you hear about that?
As a little kid, both my brother and I were aviation-motivated, and we both joined the Navy cadet program in due time. I had to wait till I was 17 to go from Army to Navy. And, uh, I got in in the aviation cadet program.
Did you join at 17 years old?
Yes.
So you were in the Army for what, about a year?
Yes.
And then switched over?
Mm-hmm.
What planes were available to fly back then?
Well, I started in an N2, an N3N. It was a Boeing airplane built for Navy. Most of them had floats, and they were built for the Naval Academy. But, uh, I trained in, uh, pasture in Arkansas. Um.
These are prop planes, correct?
Yeah. Open cockpit biplanes.
Open cockpit?
Yes, yes, yes, yes. These, these are made out of sticks and canvas. Propeller. Gas gauge is a cork. The float's showing you how much fuel you have.
Wow. Did they have guns on them?
Pardon me?
Did they have guns on them?
No.
No?
No. It was just basic training.
Training planes.
However, my, uh, instructor was a, um, uh, one of the people that, uh, fly cropdusters.
Oh.
And, uh, he taught me some things that weren't in the syllabus.
How long was flight training?
Oh, goodness. I, I got in, I went from Army in '42 and Navy in '43, and I didn't get my wings till, um, '45.
Got your flight wings during World War II.
Mm-hmm.
In August of 1945.
Right. And all that was flight training at, uh, I guess, five different bases.
Wow. Was your brother in that with you?
Yes. Uh, not, well, Samuel. He, uh, went to Woll Chamberlain for, uh, preflight, for, uh, primary flight in Minneapolis. And he went to preflight at the University of Iowa State. Uh, I, uh, went to primary flight at Memphis, and, um, my preflight was at University of Georgia.
How did it feel to get your flight wings?
To get my what?
Your wings. How did it feel to get your flight wings?
Um, mission accomplished. What I wanted to do. And, uh, it, uh, took me a while, but, uh, I was focused and bingo, that happened.
Was your dad proud?
Oh, indeed. Yes.
Was he there when you got your wings?
No.
What did you tell him?
Hmm. Well, he followed it all the way. He knew. And as time matured, he was well aware I was getting my wings. My brother had already gotten his because, well, I was still in the Army. He was in the Navy in the cadet program. So he got his probably at least six months before I got mine. He carried a qualified in Lake Michigan on a paddlewheel aircraft carrier.
And, uh, went into combat in Corsairs in, uh, on the Bedoing Strait, a little jeep carrier, uh, off Okinawa.
And what did, what were you flying?
Well, I flew a whole lot of airplanes. It depends at what point. But I finally went from, uh, canvas and sticks to metal. And after a while, uh, airplanes that, uh, the wheels would come up and, uh, they would have flaps and sophistication.
I mean, you went from Hellcats and Corsairs to jets.
I did. And in between was SBD and, uh, Bearcat. The Bearcat being my favorite airplane. Very powerful airplane.
What plane is that right there?
Well, this one is the end of me. That's a Meg. That was the best airplane in the world at, uh, the time of 1952. And this one's a Panther. It's what I was flying at, uh, that event.
How did it feel? I mean, you went from flying prop planes to those, to jets.
Yes.
What, I mean, that has to be a staunch difference.
Well, flying is flying. You, the propeller develops torque, so you use your right foot to use the, uh, the tail to correct for what's being imposed on, on your flight, especially landing and coming in for a carrier. Not so with the jet that thrusts straight down and you don't need the rudder so much.
Uh, and it's quieter. It's just playing smoother. It doesn't rattle as much. Uh, it goes a little faster. Um, other than that, uh, flying is flying.
Were you, I mean, were you guys pilots just really excited to move to the jet?
I was. I was coming from Monterey PG School to an assignment in the air group that I eventually joined, but to a Corsair squadron because I was qualified in the Corsair. And my wife and I were driving down and we were going to get a motel. I went by Miramar, the airbase that I would be working out of. And I drove over to look at the air group that I'd be joining, and there were the Panther jets.
And I thought, oh, that's what I really would like. So I got the name of the commanding officer and his phone number and found out he's a guy I knew at the University of Minnesota, was executive officer of the ROTC unit there. And, uh, I called him and told him I'm coming in, uh, to the air group and to the Corsair squadron, but I really love to be in the Panther squadron and see what I could do.
The next day, I was in his squadron.
Wow. I bet that felt good.
Worked out great.
So you, the majority of World War II, you were training.
Yes.
Correct?
Yes. From the beginning. I, I didn't miss much of it. About two months after Pearl Harbor, I was in.
What, what was, what was it like when World War II ended? What was the, what was it, what was it like to be an American?
Well, I was a lot of people that didn't want to make a quarter of it. And they went downtown and celebrated. I just, I didn't drink till I was 23. So I just stayed on the base and marveled at the changes about me because the war was over and people were getting out by big numbers.
Really? So they legitimately, they went in to fight for the country.
Yes, they did.
And when it was over, they were like, all right, we want to go back to everyday life.
Not a lot of them stayed on. And of those that wanted to, because they cut back, were forced out. And I didn't know why I wasn't because I was a high school kid. And, um, I expect, and without the actual combat, that a lot of them had. I got selected for regular Navy and sent to the University of Minnesota. And for 18 months, I get a two-year degree, and I got a four-year degree then sent to PG School.
So catch up.
How long was it after World War II that the Korean War started?
'48 to '50, '51. What's that? Six years?
Six years.
Do you want to talk?
You're talking in math, right?
Yeah.
Do you want to talk about kind of the conflict and why we got involved in the Korean War?
Yeah. The, um, Koreans and the peninsula sticks out there. It's not quite China. It's not, it's, uh, its own country, but, um, Japan on one side and China on the other and Russia right on top of it. Uh, off a lot of influence in that country.
Mm-hmm.
And the, uh, Japanese had been in there in a big way for several years in the long-king World War II, and then they lost it. And they also lost their position in Korea. And then the fighting took place between the north and south of the 38th parallel, dividing them north above it and upper border China. And, uh, they became communist-influenced.
And then there was, um, greed.
Mm-hmm.
Looking at each other and influence to where they were very unhappy. And, um, in time, the North Koreans wanted to invade and become one country, all communist. And that's when the United Nations took a look and joined in and tried to protect the South. The Japanese, by the way, at that time, backed off, but there were hard feelings between the two countries.
The Soviet Union supplied aircraft, equipment, and advisors to North Korea and China. It secretly sent Soviet pilots to fly MiG-15s against American aircraft.
Yes. And when you say Soviet, of course, that includes more than Russia at that time. Poland, Czechoslovakia, and so forth.
Stalin, Stalin authorized Soviet pilots to fight under a layer of deniability. They flew MiG-15s with the North Korean or Chinese markings and were supposed to avoid situations where a captured pilot or wreckage would expose Moscow's role.
Yes.
When did you learn about this? Did you know about this as it was taking place?
I did. I don't think it was a well-kept secret.
Did you know about these, so you knew about these MiG-15s and their capabilities?
Oh, I did. I knew about their capabilities. And, um, we were not really involved with them. They were, I don't know the reason why, but, uh, all of their effort was on the eastern half of Northern Korea, uh, fighting against the Air Force. The Air Force had the responsibility for the eastern half and the Navy pretty much the western half of North Korea.
And, uh, after an early episode, they pretty much left the western, the Navy portion. And what they had was in Russia and not involved in Korean War. Or so I thought so.
US radar detected aircraft approaching the carrier force, Task Force 77. You, now 27 years old, were about to take off on your second combat mission of the day.
Yes.
Flying combat air patrol near North Korean-Soviet border area in an F9F Panther with three others.
Yes, sir.
Can you describe that day?
Yeah. I, I was on the first mission of the day, and the weather was good, and the target was Horyang Sediwed on the, uh, upper border of North Korea that was ripe with manufacturing and warehousing war materials. We were unable to hit it from our normal position where the task force located at the 38th parallel. We didn't have in-flight refueling in those days, and it was just out of range.
And it was a pity then our task force commander, Jaco Clark, Vice Admiral, decided we better do something about it. So he arranged for a task force of three carriers and 20-some other support ships. Uh, his battleship, I suppose a couple of cruisers and then a lot of destroyers. And on the night of the 18th, we moved up off Chongjin, which was a rather large commercial shipping coastal city, about halfway from 38th parallel to the Soviet to the upper targets and well within range.
But that's where we operated in the ocean, 100 miles at sea from Chongjin.
Wow. And what was the target?
The target was the city of Chongjin's warehousing and manufacturing.
Do you know what they were manufacturing?
I don't. War materials. I met probably general materials, which are also used by civilians, but supporting combat troops.
And what were you going to, what were you guys, were you going to bomb it?
Yes.
What kind of, what kind of munitions were you carrying on the Panther?
We were carrying bombs and rockets and 20 millimeter cannons. Um, I think I probably had 500-pound bombs, probably maybe six of them, something like that.
Wow. Wow. And so let's move into November 8th, 1952, the day of the longest dogfight in US military history.
Wasn't it 18th?
November 18th.
Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It was my second flight of the day. When I landed, the weather was deteriorating or bad already with clouds down to 500 feet and poor visibility with a blizzard blowing snow, cold. And landing, they told me to get a quick lunch. I would be on the next, uh, launch in a combat air patrol.
So I did and messaged with the three other pilots of that flight, none of them which I'd ever flown with before. We were all in this division, in this extra flight because we had, uh, not kept up with all the rest in equal amount of combat flights because of cold or whatever. And so I was flying as the section leader.
That's the guy that flies the two airplanes on the lead and his wingman. So it was four airplanes. And I have in charge of the second group, two flying together. We briefed and we didn't expect any combat threat, air threat. Uh, it was going to be a piece of cake. And, uh, went out in the storm, got catapulted, joined up, climbed through the clouds.
And while climbing, got report from Combat Information Center, our control on the risk the ship I was operating from, that there were inbound bogies, term for unidentified aircraft. Don't know whether they're friendly or not. So in the clouds, and when we got on top the clouds at 12,000 feet and in the clear, could see them coming from the north directly at us.
I know it was maybe 60 miles away, but closing pretty fast toward each other. And at that time, the lead airplane announced that he had a fuel warning warning light. And they directed him and his wingman to return and remain above the clouds over the task force. So I'm now a lead. And, um, they're directing me to intercept and find out who and what.
Uh, so as they passed over me, I saw they were mixed.
How did that make you feel?
It made me feel that they were interested in looking us over at least.
Were you nervous?
No. I didn't think there would be any combat.
Really?
Yeah. I there hadn't been any really on the, uh, on the east coast. So I went about getting ready to fight. I charged my guns. I got the sight and everything and going, turn on the master armor switch, and I was ready to fight. And, uh, directed to intercept. So as he went over the top of me, I identified him.
They head back north from whence they came, saying they were just return flight. And I climbed to intercept, and they were faster and very high. Airplane was capable of flying at altitudes that, uh, the Panther couldn't reach, nor the Air Force F-86s could get up there either. It was a superior airplane. So I climbed with my wingman to I'd never flown with before, uh, in the direction to try and close the gap and look them over, uh, following behind, but, uh, climbing to 26,000 feet in their direction, at which time they split into two groups.
They were one formation, beautiful looking group, but the lead and a total of four airplanes broke off to the right and three to the left, uh, separate formations. And I assumed that they were going into land. They dove out of the clouds, out of the contrail level to where they disappeared in clear air well to the north of us.
And I declared to combat that I lost contact. And they said they had two because as they became smaller group, they didn't show in the radar anymore. So they directed me to return, turn around, come back from whence I came to establish a barricade back and forth from the last sighting and the task force and just to be ready in case they were still interested.
Certainly, they showed interest in just flying down toward the task force. And then spotting that we had an air patrol and then turning around, well, with malice. And we had the, uh, new combat capability of NSA with the detachment on the Helena cruiser off the coast of Vladivostok, watching everything they were doing and listening to their instructions.
And they were telling them to increase speed and to intercept. And with that in mind, it looked like it was pretty nasty. Um, so as in that turn to come back and establish a barricade would be going east and west, whereas the approach up there was north and south, this would be crossing it. And, uh, in that turn, the four that went off to the right and descended were down at my altitude and coming directly at my 10 o'clock position and, uh, loose formation so they could each fire on their own solution.
And all four were shooting.
Geez.
So the fight was on.
And it's just you versus four MiGs at this point?
I had my wingman with me.
You had your wing who you've never flown with before from what I understand.
That's right. And as they came on in, I saw them firing, and I knew the fight was on. And I turned hard into them as they went by me, ended up right on their tail end. Charlie fired a short burst, and he dropped out of formation. And my wingman left and followed him on down and was out of the fight, no longer at 26,000 feet. But for the next 35 minutes, at full throttle, 36, 37, whatever, thousand feet, 27, not 37, 27,000, uh, we were engaged.
So there were six planes, six MiG superior airplanes versus me and the Panther. And as the remaining.
Six MiGs versus you and a Panther. Odds aren't good.
And yeah, these three were four. They're now three. And they pulled up abruptly, showing off their might as they climbed rapidly, accelerating right above me. While the other three that turned off to the left came in from the other side. And I was going to shoot at the guy that just lost his wingman, but I saw the other two had already turned in and were shooting at me.
So I reversed over and picked the lead, who happened to be a World War II ace, a well-known guy. And I got him in my sight. He was already shooting. And I fired a short burst, and he stopped firing and turned away. And I'm quite sure he was hit. I don't say shot down. I don't think so at that point. But then his wingman, which was following right with him, was also coming at me.
He picked me as a target, and he's shooting. And I reversed after this guy turned away and got the solution and fired. And he quit firing, but I think he was incapacitated, probably dead. He didn't maneuver at all. He just slid right underneath my airplane.
No kidding.
And then, like I say, the other three came in. There are now at least two of these in the battle going down, and they no longer were in formation. They are taking a position above me elevation-wise. And when it's their turn, they're coming in at my tail and shooting at me. And then when they can no longer consider me a target, they would pull back up to get back and take their turn again.
So.
So there were.
Whatever remains of active MiGs, that's what they're doing. They're just with their superior capability, were getting up. And when it was their turn, they would come in until they were through firing, and then they'd pop up and get in position again. Well, so my primary concentration is my tail. And that's kind of the start with they were head-on targets, but no longer.
Now they're in a superior position and taking their time about when they're going to shoot. And I'm whirling like this with a rubber gasket suit, immersion suit to extend your life if you go in the water. Instead of dying in about 11 minutes, you'd live to about 20 minutes.
So you had.
It was so cold.
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That's helixsleep.com/srs for up to 30% off. helixsleep.com/srs. So you had shot one MiG that you think probably went back to base. You shot another MiG where you think you killed the pilot.
Oh, the other guy didn't get back. Out of the seven, only one got back to base.
So you've incapacitated two.
Yes.
Shot one, killed another one, likely killed another one. Now there's four left?
Yes. And one of them came down and made a mistake. And after I'm here, don't drop it. And I'm flying like this in the turn, and they're coming and they're shooting when they think they're in range, I guess.
And I'm a little slower, and so I'm able to turn a little tighter, and that spoils their aim. And when they're through shooting, they just put their nose up and climb up a couple thousand feet in position to come back in again.
Okay.
So my primary concentration is what's going on as me as a target. And over and over and over. Yeah, I don't want to drop it. They belong to my neighbor.
There we go.
Thank you.
Thank you.
One of them, after firing, instead of putting his nose up, he just turned kind of level at my elevation like this. And I was able to turn around with him in range. And I fired at him close in, and pieces of his airplane started coming off, and I had to maneuver abruptly to keep from hitting him with my airplane.
So there goes another one for sure. And as this went on, 35 minutes, longest air battle ever, I think.
Still to this day.
Pardon?
Still to this day, the longest dogfight in US military history.
Yeah. With the weapons now being missiles instead of guns, this sort of thing won't recur. So one came in, and I happened to stance, was right on his tail, and I fired, and he started dropping smoke and slowing. And I was closing right behind him. And I don't know why I was always just firing short bursts, about 16 seconds worth of 760 rounds of 20 millimeter.
I had to be cautious to stay in the fight at all. And these guys are firing 70, 37 millimeter one gun and two 23 millimeters. So they had me sort of outgunned. So I'm behind this guy, and I decided I was going to make another squirt. And it's the first time I really leveled out instead of in a turn, which set me up for the guy that's coming in, which I was always battling against.
I just lost it by having too much attention to the guy that's burning. And I pulled the trigger and went pop pop, two rounds, and I was out of ammunition. And I looked back, and sure enough, I made the fatal mistake. Here's this guy right behind me in close range. And I boot the airplane around real hard and got it to a good angle off. But he got lucky and he hit me with a 37 millimeter right in the wing butt, and it exploded in the accessory section of the engine and knocked out all the hydraulics.
It cut the cable to the rudder, and I was in bad shape.
Shit. So you're outplaned, outgunned, and outnumbered. You've taken three planes out at this point, and then you got hit.
Yeah. And luckily, I was pointed toward the clouds with the storm that was covering the task force on my ship and where I had to go for any recovery at all. And so I was pointed toward it and diving down. And this guy had just sitting ideally behind him and just shooting. And I'm pushing the stick hard forward and then hard back and yo-yoing.
And I see the bullets over me then under me and over me and over me until I rammed into the clouds down there. I started from 27,000 into 12,000 at the tops of the cloud bank. And we lost sight of each other. At least I lost sight of him, and there was no more firing. So I thought, gee, I better reject. But no, had I done that, I'd have died because there's no rescue that could have gotten to me.
So I stuck with it knowing that the bases of the clouds were 500 feet, lowering down and sort of sensing what I could find out about the flyability of my airplane, talking to the task force and returning for recovery, hopefully. And so we were in touch, and I'm just letting on down to below the clouds. And as I come in and I see the task force, and they're shooting at me.
They were at general quarters, which means ready to fight and cleared to fire if they have a target that is not identified as friendly. And they had forgotten to identify me to the defensive forces. So they shot at me.
So now you're taking blue onboard.
The landing officer had just been launched to go up and relieve me in combat. And saw what was happening and called him off. And so no more shooting at me. So I used the time to analyze my situation and wait for the carrier that was ready to launch another air-to-ground attack against Horyang.
And they had to move them forward to make the landing area available for me. So move it ahead of the barricade, which is a device that comes up in the middle of the ship that protects anybody landing from going into the pile of aircraft that are parked forward. So when that was done, they were ready for me to land.
So I had found out at that time that the airplane would stall out if I'm flying anything below 170 knots, 200 miles an hour. Normally come in about 105 to 115. So this was hot. So I notified the landing signal officer of this problem, and they passed it to the captain of the ship, who was in a storm with a lot of wind, and the ship can develop 30 knots.
He said, "Bring him in any speed you want because he could compensate for it." Good. That takes the heat off that particular part of it. But while they are moving the aircraft forward, I use what capability I have to fly the airplane to try and get in position so that when the ship turned into the wind, as they do to land, I would be in position to make my approach.
And in about 10 minutes, I got a signal, "Charlie, land." And they were into the wind. But I was over here out of line, and because I didn't have elevator and rudder, I could go up and down fine, but I couldn't turn well. And so I'm coming at the ship to make a landing, pointed at it, but off angle to where I would be crossing the deck instead of lined up with it.
And I announced it as such, and the captain was aware. And the only time I've ever heard of it, the captain lined the ship up with me. And I made a nice landing.
Holy shit. Wow.
Yeah.
What was it like to be back on the deck?
Good.
I'm back.
Good. I was safe. Got popped out of it, went into the ready room, which was full of pilots because that's our station for general quarters. All the pilots, except for the group that just took off to replace me in there, the skipper of the squadron and his division.
Was the wingman there?
My wingman? After I landed, all of them came in and landed. And unfortunately, the last one to land was the guy who was the flight lead, was out of combat, didn't have anything to do with it. But the intelligence officer wanted to debrief him first to put it in the standard order. It was kind of mixed up, and he shouldn't have done that. And there was pressure on him to get into the ship's intelligence officer where Washington was on the line wanting to know what was going on.
And he held off and tried to get some information through debriefing. And he had me in there, and he's not debriefing me. The only one that really was in the fight because he wanted to go one, two, three in order. And finally, when the lead landed, he found out he had nothing to do with it. And he finally got around to me, and I told him about the plane that I had to abruptly turn or run into him.
And he finally gave up. I can see his confusion and concern. Washington's on the line. He wanted to hear right now. Well, he didn't know anything, and he went in and made up a story. And he gave everybody a little credit for pat on the back. And that became history.
Shish. So he went in. Wow. He went in and lied.
He did. And that was it for 50 years. Even though when the Soviet Union broke up in, I think, '92, the newspaper in Moscow came out listing the event and listing the names of four people that were shot down. Shot down, not whatever else.
So that left, what, three? And they didn't cover them, but they came out in, what, 2002, came out with a history book covering the war and all the big engagements during that time, including the Air Force. And this event, only one returned, and they listed the name of the guy that came back. So there are two. We don't have names.
We don't have positive knowledge of what happened to him. But they didn't get back.
That is a hell of a mission.
Exciting.
Yeah, I'll say that.
No, I think it didn't stride. I just was prepared, I guess.
What kept you calm up there? Were you calm?
Calm.
What kept you calm?
Nature.
Nature.
God. I just took it as it came and busy, busy doing my best to be a good fighter pilot.
And you're the only one in that plane, correct?
Yes. Oh, and later, a year ago now, I woke up at night and I thought I was talking to God. I really thought I was talking to God.
Really?
And he's saying, "Royce, all this confusion, people giving me, me God, credit for the airplane getting back and landing on that ship." And he said, "You missed it. You ran out of ammo and you got hit. There was no reason for you to stick around anymore. Had you been there just a few more minutes, you'd run out of fuel and you'd be dead."
God told you that?
That's true. I wouldn't have lasted much longer up there, and there had been no rescue.
When did God tell you that?
About a year ago.
About a year ago. What did it sound like?
Pretty natural. It came to a conversation. It was kind of a handsome man, a fuzzy view. But it seemed real.
What did his voice sound like? Did it sound like yours?
Not female, male. Base. Maybe dinner.
Is that the only time you've talked to him?
I've had what I feel was communications, but nothing where I felt like I was personally talking to somebody. I thought I was dead one time for a few minutes, and everything went just quiet. And I think there was one or two persons viewable. And then I came to, and the room was crowded with doctors and everything, and realized something had happened.
How many more missions did you fly after that before you went home?
This was just the completion of our first online tour. We fly about 30 days, and then we'd go into Yakutsk for resupply and R&R. And so this was the first one, I suppose, out of maybe five more 30-day mission before going home.
Was that the first dogfight you'd ever been in?
Yes. First and only real bullets. It was very unusual of any naval aviator getting involved in aerial combat in Korea, and a little more so in Vietnam, but different missiles.
Before we move to Vietnam, I mean, I read that you went back to look at the plane and it was gone.
Yes.
What happened to it?
Well, I came down to the hangar deck from my quarters, and I saw a second-class aviation bosun mate. And I said, "I'm the pilot that flew the airplane back with the bullet holes in it yesterday." And I realized it's going to be put ashore, and I'd like to take one last look at it. And I'm sorry, sir, but we pushed it over the side. You should know they're the people that handle the airplanes.
But my very good friend, who spent 12 serious years investigating the comet information, trying to get more data and get credit for me, learned that by tracking the Bureau number, that the airplane was offloaded indeed and restored and sent for duty as a trainer in Corpus Christi, Texas.
Now, both of them sound very reliable, believable, but only one can be true, and I don't know which one.
How many bullet holes were on that plane?
Well, really one. Perforations, 263.
263?
Mm-hmm. But mainly, this is from a 37-millimeter exploding right in the middle of the engine area and putting holes more of them going out than going in.
Wow.
But I'm protected with armor plating from where that happened in the back of the seat of my airplane. I wasn't injured, except for my looking around and bleeding at the neck from the gasket up there and spending most of my time looking behind me.
That is incredible. How did it feel when Admiral Briscoe told you to never speak of this?
It was almost a shock, but I accepted for what it was worth right there that I'm not going to talk about this ever. And I made up my mind and didn't.
How long was it before you could talk about it?
50-some years.
Did you tell your wife?
No.
Holy shit. Wow.
I didn't tell anybody. I was told by Admiral Richardson, who had spent a lot of time in intelligence, at a cocktail party at the Tale of Headquarters, "Hey, Royce, there's more to this story than you're saying, isn't there?" And I'm trapped.
He said, "Well, I want you to know it's no longer classified, and you can talk about it." I said, "Well, gee, nobody's interested in that's past history, years and years ago." I said, "Hey, I'll tell my wife." I said, "Hey, Cam, I told her about this thing and I had to keep it secret." She said, "Oh, Royce." But two years later, I told my brother, the Marine aviator, about it, and he was super surprised.
What did he say?
"Oh, come on, Royce."
So you came home from that. Is that when you decided to get married?
Oh, no. I came after my second South Pacific tour, I guess, in 1947.
Okay.
And I had gotten engaged by having leave at Christmas time, and I think 1945. Yeah, because I had wings, and I pinned my wings on her as an engagement device. And so we were waiting for an opportunity, and I'm coming back from deployment, and she picks the 1st of June as wedding date.
And so it happened then that you get a large portion of your crew on the ship goes on leave when you get back to the States, and somebody has to stay behind. And that was me because calendar-wise, that was going to set me up to get my turn for the 1st of June. And during that time, very busy because we were trading Corsairs for Bearcats. And I was at the Ensign.
I was at Ensign four years. I was the senior officer there parlaying all these transfers. And then as they finished their time, it was my turn and I went home. My brother, now First Lieutenant Marine with a convertible Mercury, came back as my best man and went with him to Minneapolis to buy a car for my need as a married man.
And I bought a Studebaker Commander on a used car lot with six miles on it. And I was a happy man and came back, and I think the next day I got married.
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Yes, sir.
What happened there?
General Eisenhower ran for president. I heard that a five-star general was running for president, and I thought it was MacArthur, but it was Eisenhower. And he said that if elected president, he would go to Korea and see firsthand what's going on and make his imprint.
So the event was highly classified, and few knew about it unless they were in somehow directly involved one way or another. So he was elected, and he was given a lot of old-close information, including this event.
And he said, "I want to see that guy." And so arrangements were made to come to Korea and for me to have time with him. So I was prepped and sent to South Korea to stand by for his visit to Seoul. And when Admiral Jocko Clark, the Task Force 77 commander, came on his way for that visit, he picked me up in Busan, South Korea, and flown to Seoul.
I was dropped off from the limo at a hotel while he proceeded to Eighth Army headquarters, which today is the University of Seoul. And he said, "Just stand by the phone, and if this comes about, they'll send a limo for me." And I got the call on the limo and the trip, which was interested in itself, and an awful lot of security.
He reached so many feet all the way around the compound, and I got to the main gate with the corporal of the guard, Army MP Captain with the squad. And they weren't expecting me, so I more or less got jerked out of the car and brought into the guardhouse.
And they were about to quiz me when the phone rang. And it was Admiral Clark on the other end there, and he was saying, "Do you have a Captain Williams down there?" He said, "What's your name?" I said, "Williams." He said, "Yes, sir." And words got kind of heavy, I guess, at the other end, and he took the phone away from me. And I did, and it was snowing. I arrived, and the admiral was waiting for me at the door, and he brushed me off to get the snow off and comb my hair and get me to look decent.
I followed him into this room that was loaded with very important four and five-star secretaries and so forth. And once in there, I was introduced around. There were probably at least 15 of such level personnel. And all we're just chit-chatting, and the president came in from the side, president-elect.
And General Mark Clark said, "Gentlemen, the president," and we snapped to him. And the president says, "Eddie's, boys, Eddie's." And he was brought over to me because he knew everybody else, and I guess I was the bunch of what was going on anyway. And he took me by the arm and led me to a chair overstuffed with arms, pressed me into it, sat on the arm of it, put his arm around me, and looked me right in the eye.
And he said, "Lieutenant, before we get down to business, we ought to have a drink, don't you think?" I said, "Yes, sir." He says, "We have scotch and bourbon, water and soda. My son John's the bartender. What'll you have?" I said, "A bourbon water, please." He says, "We have awfully good scotch." I said, "Well, sir, I prefer bourbon." "Young man, we've got great scotch."
"Well, yes, sir, but I prefer bourbon." "Lieutenant, we've got the world's greatest scotch, and Mr. President, I drink bourbon." And all these stars over there are dancing. What's this snotty? Those kids do it. And so he says, "Oh, John, give them a bourbon water." And he did. And almost in a follow-on, it was similar that he stayed away from asking me anything direct that I had already been pledged to not talk about, to challenge me into getting trouble at all.
But we talked about other things, about what he could do as president and so forth. And so he's asking me some questions. And amongst the brass over there, a lot of them wanted to provide the answer to me and through or whatever. And so I'm about to say something, and General so-and-so will get online and say his piece. And when he's through, he looked back at me and said, and somebody else would pop up.
And when he get over to him, and Lieutenant Williams, what were you going to say? And it happened the second time. And after that, they got the picture that we were talking, not them. It was kind of weird. But years later, I think the whole room full of people and the importance and how smart these guys are, and they're all drinking scotch, there's something I'm missing.
So I made a study and I chewed. It's got peat in it and charcoal, various flavors to high-powered scotch that I just didn't like. Well, one day, years later, I got a call from an author that wanted to interview me, and I said yes. And he arrived and we went out on the deck, and he had a bottle with him.
And he says, "Do you have a couple of glasses with ice?" I said, "Yeah, give me a moment. So I went and fulfilled, brought him back out and reported. I said, "What is this?" And he said, "Scotch." I said, "What? Scotch? It tasted like really good bourbon to me." I said, "What is this?" "It's Monkey Shoulder." Well, captivated.
And a lot of my friends, a lot of convert going on here with drinking Monkey Shoulder.
What did Eisenhower say he could do as president?
He had the power to make changes and decide on equipment we use, procedures. And he just wanted to know what I thought about what the enemy did as compared to us and what I thought about this and that.
Did he make any changes?
I don't know if he followed through on any of that. But it was stay on top of technology.
Do you think he knew about the November 18th event?
Oh, he was told about it, and that's when he said, "I want to see that guy."
I mean, do you think he knew the whole story?
Sure. I think NSA has got to tell somebody, and I don't know anybody else. And right now, President Trump, when he decided to give me the Medal of Honor, jumped on them to release some information that they'd been holding close. They grabbed the film, everything, and they just hush-hush, and they let the lie live. I don't know why they couldn't correct the story a little bit, but they just stayed out of it.
How long was it after that event on November 18th that you got the Silver Star?
Oh, when our tour, the ship tour, air wing tour was over, the war was still on, 1953, we went back maybe just before July, and that's when the truce was declared. And then our last day on the land, no longer in combat, we had a meeting on the hangar deck of the awards being passed out.
And I was giving it, another one of the pilots was giving it. My wingman was giving the Distinguished Flying Cross, and I didn't know what for, but I got a Silver Star and so did Middleton. And I didn't know what for, but because of what the intelligence officer said, the share of the wealth.
So before I got back to the States, I came back to the States with the Silver Star.
Did you talk to the pilots that went up after you when you landed and they went back out?
No. It was over by the time they got on top of it. They saw two mates heading back, and one of them made an emergency landing on an island and was killed. And only one guy made it back.
You have some other stories where you almost died, one where you were flying and you had hypoxia.
Yes.
What is that story?
Yeah. I was exchange duty with the Air Force flying at Las Vegas Nellis Air Force Base. And I was off on a flight by myself flying F-86. And I don't know why. Maybe it was testing a plane just out of being worked on on a periodic basis and see that it all is well.
Anyway, I got a guy to join on me, and we were looking for trouble. And we picked on two other airplanes and got on their tail at 44,000 feet, which is much higher than we usually flew. And I lost item. And I asked my wingman, "Where are they?" He said, "They're right in front of you." I said, "Where are you? On your wing." I knew I was in deep trouble. We have training about what to expect when you're hypoxia, run out of oxygen.
And I knew I'd had it. And just before I passed out, I pulled the little green apple that is the handle to actuate an oxygen system in your parachute emergency bottle and pass out at 44,000 feet. And I came to by myself at 18,000 feet.
Holy shit.
Yeah. Could have been all the way, just a little longer.
And you woke up sharp, able to take control?
Yes. Kind of groggy, but alert. And yeah, from that point on, my aim was getting the plane back on the ground.
Maybe that's another time God intervened, huh?
There have been other times.
Wow.
Yes.
And then let's talk about Vietnam.
Okay.
What were you doing in Vietnam?
My first effort starting in 1965, I was the wing commander on the USS Kitty Hawk. So I had several squadrons under my command. This was air combat. I was flying F-4s and A-4s, but we had A-6s and A-1s and E-8s and the latest ship and the latest configuration of the air wing.
This was top-notch.
How did you like those planes?
I liked them.
You didn't?
I did.
You did?
I did. Yes, I liked them a lot. Yeah. The A-4 is kind of a small airplane, but it was designed for nuclear bomb delivery. And our assignment was air-to-ground targets. And we were using we have guns, and sometimes I would carry an auxiliary gun in addition to that, but normally it was rockets and bombs for ground targets of any nature.
And some of it was close air support for our troops. But mainly in Vietnam, we were north of there, and our troops are all fighting in South Vietnam, and we were in the north.
You flew 110 missions there?
At least.
At least.
Yeah, more than that. I ended up with 227, I think, combat missions between Korea and Vietnam. So I don't know, split somewhat evenly.
What were some of those missions? What's one that stands out to you?
Oh, boy. There was a bridge between Hai Phong and Hanoi, and it was a very important big bridge over a large river. And it had been attacked several times before, including missions jointly with the Air Force. And they had never destroyed the target, and they had lost airplanes.
It was well defended. And the admiral in charge of the task force called me and the other wing commanders in, and he wanted us to form a joint group. All of the ships there and their air wings and really go after it big time. And I was a senior wing commander, and I knew the admiral. We remembered the same shirt back in the States.
And I said, "Really, Admiral, if you don't mind, I would prefer to take it just my air wing by myself and not the complexity of trying to work with these other ships and everything." He said, "Oh, really? You're willing to do that?" And it was just great with the other wing commanders. They thought that was great. I had him tell me that later on when I saw him after the war was over.
I appreciated it. And I did, and I designed it different from any other I think that had ever taken place. But I decided to go at it with just A-6s, which was the best airplane for the Korean War and was a very capable airplane. And F-4s, which would keep up with it and give good cover with the bombing and so forth to take out the defenses.
And we studied and studied all the crews that are going on it. We were well prepared. And the A-6s took the bridge and the rest of us all took the defenses. And we did it without any radio. We took off and we didn't go above maybe 200 feet. We just stayed on the water. We didn't turn on anything. No electric. There's no way they're going to know we're coming.
And the A-6s take the lead and down low and no communication, no nav devices or anything. We just all quiet. And we came in hot and we hit the beach going almost 500 miles an hour. Then we popped up to target about 10,000 feet that we're going to start a dive and to the target like that, and now we could talk because they didn't know we were there.
And the lead went in with the A-6s and we all took our other targets and took out the bomb, the gun devices. And they took out three of the five sections of the bridge were in the water. We really did a job on them and we got out and we didn't lose a single airplane.
Shit.
I got interviewed after that by somebody from intelligence when I got back to the States and said, "What in the earth was behind this?"
Wow.
But it was successful.
How did you?
Big time.
So did you just take a straight bearing from the water to the target?
Straight bearing. Just popped on up, got in the air, and.
How long did that take?
The whole mission?
Just the combat part.
The part that's really important, I guess, is from the time we hit the beach.
Yeah.
And that was probably two minutes.
That's it.
Not long. We were on it and done and out of there.
Did you fly a lot of missions like that? No radar, no communications?
I did a lot of air to ground, but none of them were that significant. Were well defended.
Shit.
I did one on a target with an airfield, and it was a shipped harbor, and it was loaded with Russian ships bringing war materials. And we were instructed to stay clear of the Russian ships to came on in and took out the targets on the field and so forth and gun emplacements and got out of there.
But it was enough that the ships got underway. They got scared good, but they were never a target.
And still today, your favorite after all the jets, the Panther is your favorite plane.
No.
What is your favorite plane?
The F-8F Bearcat. My favorite airplane. It's the last propeller airplane I flew.
Really?
It was power. It was just the difference between it and other airplanes. It was just better at that time.
Do you miss flying?
Sure. Not in any big way.
Really?
Yeah. I fly when I can. I have friends that have airplanes. I don't get up much anymore, but I'm 100 million, so no big deal.
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Where did you go after Vietnam?
After Vietnam, I was Apple 5A executive assistant to DCNO Ferrero in the Pentagon. And then Sybil Stockdale, wife of Admiral Stockdale, commander at that time, POW, senior prisoner of war in Hanoi, she was privileged. She had information I didn't know about that her husband and Sybil were briefed on certain communications techniques, whereas he could communicate if given the opportunity to write in a way that there was code in there that could never be understood by the enemy that they were passing intelligence.
And she'd come to Washington and she'd be debriefed by the intelligence community. So she was there, and I was the head of prisoner of war programs. Well, I don't know. I'm out of faith. She was there and having lunch with the secretary of the Navy, chief of naval operations, chief of naval personnel, and my boss, chief of naval air.
And during the discussion, she's saying, "If you don't take some captain and aviator recently involved in combat and put his career on the line for these guys, the POWs, you're not trying hard enough." And as my boss, the admiral, came back, passed by me and to his office, patted me on the back, said, "You're going to miss your voice." And the next day, I was the head of prisoner of war programs, formed and everything from scratch, and I made quite a job out of it.
What was the prisoner of war program?
Well, for the Air Force, it was led by an assistant secretary of the Air Force, a two-star general, a colonel and his staff, and they didn't do anything but work in Washington, mainly within the Air Force, and the joint DOD portion of it, which I was a member with them. But I was a part of everything.
I even worked with Avril Herriman in the State Department during World War II, who was our ambassador to Russia. I spent a lot of time with Stalin. But I even met with him in his living room. But I got around and met families all over the country. I even went out to Clark Air Force Base in the Philippines, and I went back aboard the carriers.
I went everywhere. And I got in on writing some of the data for recovery when the prisoners are released. But I was full-time busy.
You worked with your brother as an aviator too, correct?
Yes.
What were you guys doing together?
Well, he was a Marine and he had World War II combat experience. And he was stationed at El Toro when I was at Los Alamedas, and I had been flying Hellcats and then switching over to Corsairs. And he came through his visit to me and I went in with the ops officer and I was ready to transition. I said, "My brother's here. He's well qualified. Is it okay if he checks me out?" "Sure." So he stood out on the wing. This was the way we checked out, very simple.
What do we call them? Practice devices or anything. We'd just get on the wing of the airplane, explaining how to start the airplane, what speed you take off, what speed you approach to land, what altitude to start your loop, and away you go. So he said, "Go ahead." So my brother checked me out in the Corsair. And later on, I checked him out in the Bearcat.
And I jumped in another one, went up, and we flew together. We flew together in F-8 Crusaders. We flew together in F-4 Phantoms.
That's awesome.
Jolly good flying with my brother.
That's incredible.
Yeah.
And you began in?
I started when I was wing commander on the Kitty Hawk in Vietnam. He was stationed at Da Nang. And I landed there a couple of times just to chit-chat with him.
No kidding?
Mm-hmm.
What do you guys chit-chat about in the middle of the Vietnam War?
What are you doing? What are your targets? What do you hear from home?
Wow. And you became an honorary Marine.
Yeah.
How did that happen?
I didn't know that. Yes, big time. I'm really impressed. Well, the year before, I came into Pensacola, which I've done now for a few years in a row. And they've always made a big deal out of it. And I came in and they met me in the airplane and assisted me out. And at that time, I was not walker-bound.
I think I had a cane. And they had sideboys lined up. And I walked through all of them and into another room. And then we had a small part of it and came escorted me to the hotel. And we had a bottle of Monkey Shoulder Scotch and started with a little party. But I felt so noble about the way they treated me.
And the next year, they wanted me to be a Marine. And they did it upright. There were two four-stars that participated in the ceremony. And it was well done and I'm pleased, very pleased.
So in 1980, you retired as a captain in the US Navy, serving approximately 37 years.
That's right.
Over 4,500 flight hours, 3,000 jet aircraft, 1,500 propeller aircraft, 518 carrier landings, 70 Korean War combat missions, 110-plus Vietnam combat missions, and approximately 227 combat missions in total.
That's right.
That's insane.
Well, there are friends I know that have over 500 combat missions.
Wow.
One of them was the deputy CNO. Goodness.
Wow. At 101 years old, you're a living bridge through an enormous time period of American warfare.
Certainly so.
2023.
I met Milena, the president's wife. That was a thrill.
How was that?
She placed the ribbon around my neck, the First Lady. She's a delightful woman.
I mean, that was so in 2023 is when it got upgraded to the Naval Cross, correct? The Navy Cross.
Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah. And that was a thrill.
February 26th, you were awarded the Medal of Honor. But there was what is this? I mean, there's a time limit for it to get.
Yes, five years.
Upgraded, correct?
No longer permitted consideration of an upgrade to Medal of Honor after five years.
Congress had to waive the time limit through the 2026 National Defense Authorization Act, which allowed your case to be considered despite the passage of more than 70 years.
Congress and General Isaac just did a whole hell of a job on my behalf. Wonderful, wonderful.
You know, you've been through the Great Depression, World War II, the Korean War, Vietnam, Desert Storm. You saw the global war on terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq. What do you want people to remember about you the most?
That I cared. I cared about everything I got involved in. I did a lot of scouting, and they did a lot for me. I have two awards beyond Eagle. And the last one was done aboard the USS Midway Aircraft Carrier Museum. And it was fabulous.
And Congressman Isaac left Washington just in time to get there at the beginning of the ceremony. And at the end of it, he had to return immediately back to Washington on the job. He took time out to be there. Certainly made me feel fine.
I bet it did. I'll bet it did. How about this law you got passed?
Oh, yes. I was instructed in the Fleet Air Gunner Unit to a FAGU, which was a predecessor to Top Gun. I had been on exchange duty with the Air Force at the Fighter Weapons School in Dallas and knew Boots Boucet, the writer of No Guts, No Glory, who had 19 killed and brought back information that kind of updated regarding fighter tactics.
And as such, I was the tactics instructor at FAGU. And one of my students was the first commanding officer of Top Gun. And he gives me credit for everything he learned about fighter tactics. So as an instructor, I was flying FJ-3s, which are very similar to an F-86. And one day, we only had three, so I gave them to the students.
And I decided I could run the flight from the tow airplane, just bringing the tow for aerial combat or gunnery. And so I bumped the tow pilot and decided to fly it and happened to be the Panther that was doing the towing. On takeoff, it lost power, not total, but not enough to let me continue to fly or climb at 3,500 feet.
And at the end of the runway at El Central, where this was happening, is a crevice in Mini Grand Canyon and a place you don't want to put your airplane. So I got rid of the tow I was towing to give me some additional distance and keeping the gear up and everything clean to extend my glide as far as possible.
And I made it across Mini Grand Canyon and crashed. And the airplane broke up and I broke 11 vertebrae in pretty bad shape. And so I was sent to a hospital in San Diego for quite some time. And when they cut the cast off and so forth, I went back to flying. But with medications that were not permitted for pilots, but with the authorization of Biomed.
And I did that for a lot of years and during the Korean War as well. But I'm in Vietnam. When we came back from the first tour in Vietnam as wing commander, the senior flight surgeon talked to his buddy at the medical organization in Pensacola. And they decided, "Hey, we want to see this guy." He's saying, "Gee, every time he really gets tired and kind of needing help in his 18, 20-hour days, we give him more of this and more of that."
And he says, "Well, what?" "Well, for instance, thyroid. The body produces about two grains a day and we have him on five and a half." They're saying, "We want to see this guy." So I got ordered to go back to Pensacola and studied. And when they got through, they said, "There are changes in your body. You no longer need all this medication. Stop taking it and go about your business." Well, not that easy. The body doesn't transition that easily.
And I was losing my hair. Things were pretty sad. And it was reviewed with Biomed and they said, "This can't be." So they talked to Biopers and they gave me orders. "You're authorized for command and sea naval aircraft in combat, not at the actual controls." So I'm saying to myself, "How do I run an air wing in war combat and not fly?"
So the only answer was, "I've got to be airborne in NFO." And I ordered myself to go to the NFO school and get designated and went about business in combat in the back of an F-4 Phantom. And I did that throughout until I was relieved. And I went to Washington as an Apple 5A working for the senior naval aviation command.
And as such, he's the head of the board with other senior Navy Marine admirals, generals that make policy. And they met in San Diego. And my job made me secretary of the board. And item one, NFOs, what do we do about them? Example A, Captain Williams, two sets of wings. I knew some of these guys.
And we get into it and they say, "What is there about the job that precludes command?" And I said, "Frankly, can't think of a thing. In several cases, it was enhancing." Well, we worked that over and learned that it was against the law. Title X prevented command for NFOs. And there weren't any senior enough to really worry about it, but they'd probably ended their job as lieutenant commander and no position beyond that.
So I had learned about Title X before when I was head of promotion plans in Biopers and had gone to Congress and changed the law. So we did it again and got authorization to get rid of that law and equal opportunity for NFOs. Probably the most important thing, we've got four stars, admirals and generals, NFOs.
Wow. Nice work. Nice work.
I'm very proud of that.
Should be. Well, sir, would you like to end this with a prayer?
Yes.
Do you want to lead it?
Yes.
Perfect.
Dear Heavenly Father, divine God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, I come before you with great gratitude. My preservation, you told me that you love me.
You were there, Lord, when I needed you time after time. You gave me a wonderful woman as a life partner, friends to see me through troubled times and good times. I praise you.
We praise you. We thank you. You look after our country. God bless America. And to you, all credit. Amen.
Amen. Captain.
Yes, sir.
It was an honor.
Thank you kindly. Thank you. This is a noble event. I just love being here. Kind of a hallowed room.
I love having you.
And a gun.
You like that gun?
Oh, I love that gun.
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Captain Royce Williams is a retired U.S. Navy fighter pilot, Medal of Honor recipient, and veteran of WWll, Korea and Vietnam war. During his 37-year Navy career, he flew 227 combat missions, including a remarkable 35-minute dogfight against Soviet MiG-15s over the Sea of Japan in 1952. The encounter remained classified for decades because of direct Soviet involvement. In 2026, at age 100, Williams received the Medal of Honor for his actions that day.
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Captain Royce Williams Links -
Boy Scouts of America - https://www.scouting.org
Honor Flights San Diego - https://www.honorflightsandiego.org
National Medal of Honor Museum Foundation - https://mohmuseum.org
Congressional Medal of Honor Society - https://www.cmohs.org/recipients/elmer-r-williams
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