Transcript of #352 Cain Velasquez - UFC Champion Hunted the Man Accused of Abusing His 4-Year-Old Son

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Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Thank you for coming. So yeah, we have a mutual friend, um, and he had mentioned your name to me, and dude, I was just over the moon, uh, to have you. And, and, um, so it's, it's, it's really an honor to have you here.

Thank you, brother. Thank you for coming. Thank you.

But, um, yeah, before we get started, um, man, I just want to say that I, I really respect, you know, what you did. And, um, I think everybody knows what I'm talking about. And, uh, like, standing up for kids that are going through exploitation, you know, dealing with predators and stuff, has been— it's been a huge topic on on my platform. And it's, it's like the one thing that is the nearest and dearest to my heart is, is helping parents protect their kids and, and, and bring awareness to kids on how this kind of stuff is happening. Because it's happening more and more and more and more as time goes on. And the amount of predators that are online, it's just— It's atrocious. That seems like an unfixable problem. And, um, you could go after all of them, and I wish people would, but I think that the, uh, I think the only way out of this is, is, is, uh, educating the public on what they can do, you know, as parents to protect their kids from this stuff, to talk to them about it. Exactly. Which me and you were just talking about earlier, and, uh, and, and, and to bring awareness to kids.

And we've we've displayed in real time how that stuff happens online.

Yeah.

And, um, and offline from every organization you can possibly think of— sports, churches, educational systems, um, everything. You know, they're, they're everywhere. And, uh, so, so like I said, man, I just, I just want you to know it's a real honor to have you here.

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Um, what— yeah, it is about, um, awareness. You know, the these things have been part of our society, or it's been part of everyday life forever, you know. But the only way to, I think, to really get past this on a positive level is awareness, you know, speaking to your kids, speaking to your kids at an early age, you know. And I know we're like, oh, they're so young, we don't want to like instill these states of mind in them, you know, to be aware of certain things out there because they're so young. But it's a must because that happens. So educate your kids on what's appropriate and what's not. And that no matter what, you're— they're always going to have a free, free place to come and speak their mind, and they're not going to get judged out of it. You know, they won't get judged. They won't, um, They're not going to get— they won't get, you know, shot away. Like, their words are valid.

Yeah.

Right? Their experiences are valid, you know. So it's creating that safe space between you and your child. You can come to me with whatever. Doesn't matter. I'm not going to get mad at you. Like, no. Like, no. You come to me with truth. And we're going to get through this together. And being aware, showing awareness of this, talking about it, showing to the public, then it puts those that are doing these things, it puts them in a place of they have to pay their dues, you know? Like, that's the only way. But if you keep it hushed or if your kids say something and you don't take that into account of what they said and you think, oh, then maybe they meant something else. Like, no, no. Like, that's not the way to do it. And they think, oh, okay, well, I'll just take you away from that situation. It's still going to happen to somebody else. And that's the same thing as it happened to your child. It's still growing. People aren't being, you know, processed in the way they should. You know, people that need to be— go through the system and be incarcerated and all that, like, they have to be shown.

All of it has to be shed light on.

Yeah, yeah, man, it's a heavy, heavy topic. We'll dive into it in a little bit here too. But, but, um, but I want to do a life story on you, so, you know, starting from childhood all the way up until now. And, um, so I wanted to give you an introduction first. Cain Velasquez, you're a former 2-time UFC heavyweight champion, widely regarded as one of the most dominant heavyweights in MMA history. Known for your relentless pace, wrestling, and conditioning. A lifelong martial artist, you have come to view fighting as much more than physical competition, embracing its spiritual dimensions while exploring psychedelics, self-discovery, and personal transformation. After serving time in prison, you emerged with a new purpose, helping others heal through your own practice, Ascension Breath. which you introduced to fellow inmates and continue to teach today. Once again, welcome to the show.

Thank you.

So I have a— I have a Patreon account. It's a subscription account. And they've been with me since I started this thing in my attic about 5, 6 years ago. And, and so one of the things I do is I offer them the opportunity to ask every guest a question. And this is from Mick Cullen. You've spent your entire career learning discipline, composure, and how to handle, handle pressure in the toughest situations imaginable. As a fighter, and more importantly, as a father, how have those challenges you faced outside the octagon changed your perspective on what it truly means to be strong?

Mm-hmm. So yeah, I learned a lot from— well, everything I did, I learned from. So I learned a lot about myself through wrestling, through fighting. What are my limitations? You know, and I realized like there are none unless the ones that I put on myself, right? I learned to really kill myself every day. In training, every moment, give myself to that every moment, every day, to where there's nothing more I can give. Like I gave it all. I didn't hold back, right? From everything that I've learned from winning, losing, having the spotlight on me, having to have me open up to people. To strangers, to a mass audience, I guess. I've learned over everything to be strong is to be your authentic self and to come with truth. Truth is love and wisdom. Love and wisdom. And love could be in so many different ways. It could be unconditional, yes. And again, if somebody does something wrong, then you have to shed light on it. That's also— it's having love for somebody else that you may not have those feelings towards, but it's what's right. So being your true authentic self. And what is that?

Well, I think we all see each other as different, but through— we get the ego out of the way, we're all the same. Mm-hmm. Eternal beings. from the same Creator. That's what we are. Not what we were told. No, no, no. Self-discovery. It's— you are an infinite— love is within you. Infinite prosperity is within you. Like, infinite greatness is within you. So how can you share that? How can you embody that? And share it by just you just being you, your authentic self, not doing something for something else. Not having a hidden agenda. You do it because that's the essence within you.

You just mentioned— I love what you just said there. You mentioned there are no limitations. And that's something I've learned over the years. And it's something that I've tried to instill into just about everybody that works here. And, uh, I think, I think a lot of them thought I was full of shit, and then they look back at where we started and they're like, there are no limitations.

Yeah.

And, and so I'm just curious, and I think that with just about everything, uh, in life, when did you learn there are no limitations? What was it for you that— did you just always have that in you?

No, it was always just an ongoing process. I just remember at a young age, like, when I started wrestling and I started getting, like, a lot of attention, and that was— I had really— I had a hard time with that, with the attention. Not what I was doing, like wrestling and doing the hard stuff. Like, I love that. But then as I started getting, like, notoriety, for it, I thought to myself, well, I was like, well, you can do it too. Like, it's within you to do this or do something that you love and make something great out of it. But I've learned over the years, the more that I know myself, those— the endless possibilities get bigger and stronger, right? Like, the more that I learn the depths of myself, the more that I realize There's more that I can give. There's more that I can experience. There's more love that I can give. There's more love that I can experience. So it's been an ongoing process. I think I've processed things very well as a child already. Like, saw people doing things that were wrong. I didn't understand it. You know, I didn't get it.

Like, okay, that's not for me. That's what you're doing. Okay. But I'm not gonna intertwine myself with that. So it's a path of self-discovery. It's an endless, eternal process. The more you tap into that, the more you grow from within.

Mm-hmm.

In all different aspects. You forgive, you let go, but you do what's right. Um, so yeah, ongoing process of forever thinking we have time. Like, I don't believe it's just one lifetime. It's, it's forever. We're eternal beings. We're going to eternally grow into ourselves. So imagine what, what you could think the end game is. Like, there is no end game. It's just eternally growing. Eternally knowing yourself, eternally knowing that God consciousness is within you. It is you. All of everything that life is, like, that's bringing you into a push-pull, into a place of scarcity, all of that, trying to tell you that material things are what's What life is about, entertainment, trying to get you out of— from you, all that's an illusion to get you out of yourself. How powerful would it be if everyone knew who they really were and lived it?

It'd be powerful. I don't think there's a lot of people that do, though. But—

But we're helping. We're helping.

Yeah.

You know? Everyone's helping in some way.

Let's get to, um, your life story. Where'd you grow up?

Um, so I was raised— I was born in Salinas, California. My parents were farm workers, so they followed the, uh, the fields of the Central Valley, uh, the Bay Area, all the way to, uh, Arizona. So I grew up in Arizona. I grew up in Yuma, Arizona. I'm Mexican. My So part Spanish, part indigenous, uh, Native American from Mexico, from the Sonoran Desert. Okay. So that's where I was. I'm part Yaqui, Yaqui Mayo, uh, Indian. So, um, very traditional, hard-working family. So my, my parents worked the fields all day. kind of thing. Um, come home and, um, I grew up a lot going to Mexico because it was so close. Like, we would go— it was like 30 minutes away.

Okay.

So we'd go there, spend the day, and I loved it. I loved the culture, the food, the, um, the people. Um, so I grew up as—

What would you do there? Relatives?

Relatives. Um, we'd go swim. Arizona, right? Just hot. So we'd find— my dad would take us to all these like swimming holes where they'd be like, there'd be like canals too. Like, so we're gonna swim in this canal and it'd be pretty shady, like looking, but we would swim. We were just like, all right, we're diving in and just have a good time. swimming, food. So it was more just family time together, being together, enjoying ourselves.

Where was your dad? Where was your dad from?

My dad, my dad's from that neighboring town. So he, he was born in San Luis, Río Colorado, which is a border town of Yuma.

Okay.

So that's where he was born.

Oh, so when you were going back, you were going back to where your dad— Yes.

Yep. Yeah, yeah. And it's not a big town. Yuma's not a big town. San Luis isn't a big town either, but they're known for their food. Really good food there. It's so hot. It's like, what else? I don't know what else to do. Yeah. You do that, you swim, go to the river, Colorado River, and swim there. So a lot of family time, a lot of family time. And As I got— as, as even as a child, I saw how like my parents' trauma started coming out. My dad, um, my mom was very open with me, um, and I was open with her. Like, she was like a safe place I can go to always. She told me everything. She didn't keep anything hidden. She told me everything about her, her life, my dad's life. So When she would talk about my dad's life and how he grew up, he was very badly beaten by his mom and older brother, like on a daily, to where he had a home, but there'd be times where him and his younger brother wouldn't come home for a while, 'cause they knew once they got home, like they were gonna get beaten for whatever reason.

So, not a very good childhood. Like, he had times where he had separated himself and, you know, to be a kid out in the streets. But, um, at home wasn't— it wasn't a safe place for him. And I saw that, like, in my parents fighting. My dad, you know, hit my mom and all that. Like, I saw all that.

You saw that?

Yeah, I heard it. What age? As young as I can remember. Yeah, you know, um, And I just, just remember, like, I couldn't understand how people that love each other would do that to each other, right? So what made me make sense of it was my mom telling me, like, the things that he's gone through. And she was very understanding. She was just like, well, the things that he's gone through, like, it's— this is why he's like this. He'd be so loving and so peaceful. But then again, had this need to fight and hurt the loved ones around him and try to control them. So I had a very loving relationship with my father. I still do. But I understand the traumas that he went through. And I'm just happy that generationally, me and my siblings didn't go through what he went through.

You broke it?

No. Um, I feel like it just got better. It got better. And the work— I think the work that I'm doing now is, yeah, I'm breaking all those, those family traumas.

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One brother, one sister. My brother passed away in 2020, and I got an older sister. Um, so yeah, uh, my brother really took care of me a lot when I was younger. Like, I'm fucking crazy, man. I'm fucking like, I don't know how someone who's 2 years older than me took care of me. Like, I just had so much energy, you know? Like, just my eyes were open to life and I just like want to run and do all these crazy things. Like, you couldn't really hold me into like, no, no, you need to stay still. Like, that wasn't me. I had to keep moving. Like, I couldn't stay still for anything. I had to keep exploring. So I think I brought a lot of anxiety to him because he was the older brother. He had to take care of me at a young age, and no one could do that, not even my parents. That was just so wild. So getting into everything, you know, I didn't stop.

Like troublemaker wild?

I was more— no, I was more curious, right? So it'd be like times where, where like I wasn't around, like when the family— like I wasn't there, they're like, where is he? He's doing something he shouldn't be doing. So I'd go outside in the garage or something, and I'd— and I like If I saw something mechanical, I'd start breaking it and start like opening it up. I wanted to see, you know, what it was. And if there was paint there, I started spraying things like, oh, like, like I didn't know. I just said, yeah, yeah. So I just started like spraying things I shouldn't be spraying. Like, I didn't know. I didn't know that you can't do that, that, that, that's permanent. Or, you know, there were no limitations like that. I just, I saw something, sprayed paint. Did that. Fucking like, someone left the razor out, so I fucking like took my eyelashes out. Took my— yeah, yeah, took my eyelashes out. And then I remember my mom having to like paint me eyelashes to go play with my friends because I didn't have any, right? So no, man, I was just— why? I was just— I was open to life.

And I— and if I saw like something, like I wanted to see what it was. So then I started breaking it and started seeing like, like seeing the internals of it.

So if you're— I mean, with a mischievous kid, you know, like yourself and your dad losing his temper on your mom, you know, would he lose his temper on you guys?

So I'm the youngest. I think they could— they knew I was very— I was innocent. I just— I didn't have it— I didn't do it for a wrong reason. I was just exploring. I think they knew that. But yeah, I got spanked and all that with the belt and hit and all that. My dad was very possessive of my sister. Like, you have to do this a certain way. Like, after school, you gotta come home, no boyfriends, nothing like that. So that was very hard, hard for her because she was very much like my dad where she'll fight, she'll fight you, you know, like she won't back down. So they themselves clashed a lot. And that was very difficult to see, you know, how possessive he was with her, how he treated her. They didn't let her explore things she needed to explore as a child. Yeah.

Did you or your siblings ever have to step in in between your parents?

We did when, like, my parents would fight, you know.

How would you do that?

I mean, it was more so we would just sit there in front of them and cry, you know? Like, I don't want to hurt my dad. Or, you know, like, I just want you guys to stop. Just stop whatever you're doing. Why? You know? So I just felt very helpless. And I think it also, it was more of like, I'm the youngest, people always looked out for me. So to take that role was difficult for me at that young of an age. Mm-hmm. You know, but as we got older, we got, you know, things slowed down a little bit more. I think my dad kind of grew up a little bit more of like letting some of his stuff go. So it wasn't as bad growing up, like, as we got older. But yeah, I had a tough time with it, with like even stepping in and doing anything because I just wanted it to stop, you know, just crying, just watching them cry. I'd be crying watching them, what they were doing, you know, and it felt— I just felt very, very helpless.

Do you have any advice for kids that are in a situation like that? Whether they're saying that every day.

What really helped me was just understanding that my father had traumas. My mom did too, you know, and to understand their story a lot more, to understand how they were raised, how they were treated, helped me to forgive. Not that I could have done anything in that moment, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, but that helped me, you know? And I do believe if it's a thing like that, like, people shouldn't be together, you know? The parent needs to like, nah, man, like, this isn't it. Like, it's hurting me, it's hurting my kids. Like, I gotta put myself out of this situation. You know, my mom never did that. There's times where they were like separated, but she did it very well that she understood why. And she would speak to us kids why this is happening. And she would speak to like to us about stuff that happened to her as she was a child. So she was very much an open book. Like, you can come to her. I could come to her all the time and talk to her about all these things that were going on with me or that I thought and just felt very at home with her.

You know, so I guess understanding that, you know, your parents' story, but also like if it's ongoing and if it's every day and it wasn't every day, you know, it wasn't like that. But I think the parents have to get some type of control and get themselves out of something if they need to. They got to do it, you know. They can't be scared of like, oh, like, how am I going to survive all— like, you got to get yourself out of this situation. You understand why, why you, why you keep going back to this, you know.

Did you find an escape from that, or did you need an escape from that?

Um, so I guess as a child, like, my kind of escape was like to play like alone. Um, so I remember like going outside, getting sticks, and I'd do like a lot of forms, like seeing what I saw in karate movies. You know, pretending the stick is a sword, 2 sticks, and just start doing what I saw in karate movies. And then I remember going to like the public pool and I'd be there for hours doing a fight scene. Like, I'd be in a fight scene, like karate fight scene in the water, kind of like The Matrix. Like, I'd be—

Like reenacting?

Yeah, yeah. Doing flips. Kicks that I couldn't do, you know, on land, I would do them all in water. And I'd be there for just— I'd be so into just playing with myself doing that. Oh, shit. Not playing with anybody else, just in the water. And I do these fight scenes, and I'd make my own movie or whatever. Like, I'd make my own, like, crazy fight scene where I'm fighting an opponent that's invisible. But to me, it's like, well, I'm in it. I don't care who's watching, nothing. Like, I'm in my world. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you were, you were drawn to that from—

Yeah.

A very young age.

Yes. Yeah. Bruce Lee. So we watched a lot of movies together, my family, and like, it was all open to us. Like, it wasn't like, oh, you can't watch this. So I got introduced to everything through movies, you know, sex, fighting, martial arts, love. All of it. And my first movies that I really loved, Bruce Lee movies, watching his Bruce Lee movies, going into Arnold Schwarzenegger movies, Van Damme, all the karate movies. Like, I, I wanted to be in some type of martial arts so bad, karate or something. Like, watching pro wrestling. pro wrestling, WWE, and, and lucha, lucha libre, like between the two worlds. Um, so I watched a lot of that and, and I, and I loved it. Yeah.

What got you into wrestling?

So my, my brother is 2 years older than me. Um, junior high, he's— he, uh, he started wrestling, uh, his 7th grade year. So I was I was, uh, in 5th grade, and then it was free with the school, you know. So it's pretty much that, like, okay, like, um, 5th grade I started doing martial arts. I started doing karate before I even did that, before I even wrestled. Um, and I was like, maybe I was too old, but I was like, man, this is, this is weak. Yeah. this isn't, this isn't real. This isn't real. This isn't— this is kind of like, yeah, we're working out discipline, all that, but I'm like, what you're showing us, like, this wouldn't work. I just— I just— there was something in there that was missing. It was that at a young age, like, maybe I was just too— I was too old, or— but So then I started wrestling, uh, my 7th grade year. Like, okay, it's free, like it's with the school, um, and they just started doing it, man. And, uh, it wasn't easy. Like, it was fucking hard, you know. Workouts were hard. To go out and wrestle was hard in front of a lot of people wearing singlets, you know.

Like, growing up in Arizona, like, we're not a big wrestling town. So you're getting made fun of because what you're wearing, you're getting made fun of because you're rolling around with guys. Like, you know, so it's like people that aren't, that aren't doing it are like judging you out of what you're doing. So it's like, for me, it was like, well, why, why am I doing it? I don't know. I don't know. It's just hard. It's tough. Like, it's, uh, it's nerve-wracking before you wrestle. Like, I don't know why I'm doing it, but there's something there. there's something there. Yeah. So that's kind of how— yeah, that's kind of—

You were drawn to it right off the bat.

I was. I was drawn to like how hard it was, but that I was good at it, even though it was like, it was hard, you know, and no praise came from it. Like, it wasn't like you were like super popular at the school because you wrestled. Like, wrestling wasn't, wasn't, wasn't that big. And then I didn't do very well at school. So maybe I found something that I did very well, that spoke to me, that taught me all these things that I felt like I needed to learn.

Like what?

Just how to strive through adversity, how things may get hard. And they are. Workouts are hard, positions are hard. In a position, getting in a position is hard to get what you need out of a takedown. Like, it's so much work, but it's like you get it, it's like, ah, yes, I got— but then you're on to the next, you're on to the next. So it's like an ongoing, uh, constant battle. Um, but yeah, well, so school really like It kind of messed me up.

It messed you up?

It did. Um, so in my family we have, um, um, dyslexia and things like that that are going through the family. And my brother had a lot of that. I didn't. I could read and all that. Um, but I'm like, man, when I was in school doing schoolwork, I'm like, why in the— like, why in the am I doing this? Like, from grade school, I'm like, this is not what I want to be doing, and I'm not going to do it, you know? Like, my parents— Yeah, yeah, I can relate. My parents, uh, my dad stopped at 3rd grade and just started working, you know, selling like gum and things like that in the streets. My mom, uh, stopped at school 7th grade farm working at that farm, work at the house, and also traveling farm working. Um, so they weren't really on me too much about school. So I didn't have that like, oh, did you do work, any of that at home. But in school, man, doing work, I was like, this is— this isn't it. Like, this is— this is bullshit. Um, whatever I'm learning here is like— there's certain subjects that I did like.

history, things like that. But like everything else that came with it, I was like, nope, this isn't it, man. So I'd be in school just daydreaming, like couldn't wait to get out to just recess, go out and have fun, you know. And a lot of that, a lot of that got taken away from me too because I wouldn't do my work. So they're like, hey, you got to finish this paper. or whatever, you got to finish this work before you go out, or, uh, during recess. And I still wouldn't do it. I still— I'm like, nope, not fucking— still not doing this shit.

Did that interfere with your wrestling career?

So starting junior high, you have to maintain a C average. So I'm like, fuck, okay, well, if I gotta do this, if I want to do this, I gotta do this the best way that I can. And, you know, so I had to— not that I wanted to, but I had to. I'm like, if I want to keep doing this, I have to do this. If I want to keep playing sports, wrestling, playing football, I gotta do this. So it made me lock down more. And I had troubles with it big time. A lot of teachers helped me and all that. They knew, like, I was good at sports, but I wasn't— the school was not my thing. So it helped me. It did. And then in college, when I got into college, man, like, tutors and all that. Like, for me, there was only wrestling and school. Like, I really had to focus on school.

So how— I mean, how fast did your— how fast did you excel at wrestling? Started in 7th grade.

7th and 8th grade, went undefeated.

No shit. Right off the bat?

Right off the bat, went undefeated. My 8th grade year, I beat the state champion, so I was state champion in freestyle. So right away I was good at it. Right away. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, yeah. I was good at it right away.

Was your brother good at it?

He was. He was. He wasn't as good as I was. Our bodies are a little different. Like, I move a little different than he used to. He's very good technically. He's strong. But I can move really fast too for a big guy. Yeah. Like, yeah. Some reason I got that. Yeah.

How was your high school career?

Really good. So I went like 110-10 in high school. So yeah, really good. Uh, freshman year I didn't place. I was one, one, one match away from placing in state. Um, and then I took second my sophomore year and then won it junior and senior year. Uh, so Yeah, I was really good. I was one of the top, top guys in the country for wrestling. Yeah. Yeah.

Maintained a C average the whole time?

Yeah. Yeah. Freshman year, man, I did go ineligible like for a week because I had to do some work. So it was a struggle, man. But But yeah, I did it. Like, I just squeezed by high school, like, with the grades and stuff. I did. It was hard, but, um, but I did it, you know. I'm happy that I did it. I learned a lot from it, you know, how to persevere even something like I'm not good at. Like, if you really put your time into it, you can. But like, things outside of your world has to shut down, you know, like friends and all that. Like— well, your sport and, and your schooling, you know. So it really helped me like compartmentalize like all of that. So I'm not just playing sports, then going off, you know, my friends and doing other stuff. Like, no, no, there's work to be done. Like, you got to work.

Were your parents into it? They come watch?

They did support you. They did. My mom. Yeah, my dad did as well. My mom was super She came to all the matches. She'd be yelling. Her and my sister as well. They'd be yelling, you know, fighting for us as we're— we can hear them as we're wrestling. Yeah. Yeah. My mom was very, very proud. You'd be in the town and like talking to whoever and she'd be like, do you know who my son is? Like— I'm like, Mom, just stop. Like, don't, you know, like— I didn't, uh, even though I did all these things and a lot of attention started coming to me, like, I didn't like it. I did not like it at all. I don't like people watching me, give me any type of praise, none of that.

Really?

None of that. Yeah, I just felt very awkward, man. Just like, nah, man, just let me do my thing. Like,

yeah, I, uh, read you're pretty introverted.

I think, yes. Yes, definitely. I think at a young age, watching people again and seeing how they didn't see things the way that I saw them, or they didn't act the way that I did, it made me go inside a lot more. It made me shut down from people. There wasn't a lot of people that I got to really learn from in a true way. There wasn't like, other than my mom, my dad as well. Like, and my dad was more so watching him, watching him how he worked, you know, and the grind every day, working hard. Like, and no, he didn't complain about it. Right. My mom, how open she was with me about everything, her life, like whatever. Like, We talk, we talk. But there wasn't a lot of people where I'm like, oh, like you, I can learn from. There wasn't. So I more so shut down, did my thing, put my head down. So yeah, that made me really just go within and not share of myself in any other way than in the physical.

When did colleges start looking at you?

Right, uh, probably like my sophomore, senior, uh, junior year. Um, I had a choice of either playing football or wrestling. Um, and had a lot of colleges look at me for football, like a lot of big schools. So I feel like I could have gone either way. My grades too were something like, okay, well, his grades aren't that good. So, you know, kind of thing. So it kind of took me off of the— even though a lot of colleges wanted me to play, it took me out of that. Like the— yeah. So I had to go into junior college first.

What did you like better? Did you like football or wrestling better?

I liked them both, but I felt like I would— I'd have a better career in wrestling.

I feel like you're better at wrestling.

I feel like I was really good at both. I could have done either one. I feel like I wanted to focus more on wrestling because there's something about it that taught me so much. There's more— there's more more things you could do. I think it— I think I could shine there a lot more. Yeah. Yeah. But I got recruited more for football by big schools. Like wrestling, even though it wasn't like a lot of big schools asking me to go, I feel like I could have wrestled anywhere that I wanted.

Where did you wind up going?

I wanted to go to Arizona State. Yeah. Um, so like 1996 when I saw, uh, Jake Plummer, um, they had a, they had a season where they, they went into the Rose Bowl and I'm like, man, I want to like Arizona State. Didn't even know, you know, Arizona State. Okay. And then I found out they had a wrestling team and then one of the best in the West Coast, if not the best in the West Coast. Saw them wrestle once against Iowa. I'm like, I'm coming here. Like, I want to wrestle here. This is where I want to wrestle.

In Iowa?

No, in Arizona State.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah. They read— Arizona State had a duel against Iowa and they got beat. They did. But I'm like, I don't care. Like, I want to go to Arizona State. I want to represent my home state. Yeah, I'm gonna be a Sun Devil.

Did you get there?

I did. Yeah, I had to go through junior college first. So I went to junior college in Fort Dodge, Iowa, Iowa Central Community College. We won a national championship there the year I was there. And I was a junior college national champion. Being exposed to the Midwest was a big culture shock for me.

Why is that? That's where I grew up.

It was just different, man, than when I grew up. The people were different, the surroundings were different. It didn't feel like home to me, you know. For me, it was having my family around, you know, either like every day, or at least having them come to my matches. Mm-hmm. You know, that was a big thing for me. So going to Iowa Central, thinking I could go anywhere that I wanted to, and I had— and my mind was open to that. But once I was there for a year, I was like, no, I want to go back home. I want to go back to— I want to go to Arizona State where I originally wanted to go my whole life. I want to go there, wrestle there, and I want to have my family Watch me wrestle. I want to. I want to still be around them. Yeah. So, so I got recruited to go to Arizona State, and I was like, yeah, man, I'm coming here. I'm coming back home.

How was the competition for you in college versus high school?

A lot harder. A lot harder, man. You're wrestling every match you're wrestling like guys are state champions. Now, all of them, you know? And they're— and if you're a freshman or a sophomore, you're wrestling guys that are much older. It's like you're in the second high school too, but the level of competition is a lot, a lot more. A lot more. A lot, lot harder. So everything, takedowns, everything, trying to score all the matches. You're hardly getting pins now. You're hardly— you're winning by 2 or 3 points. Type of thing. So it was— so it got harder. It did.

How would you handle loss? That's a— that's a— I wrestled. I wasn't any good, but I think one of the most important things about that sport is it teaches you how to lose.

Yeah,

because it all falls on you. There is no other excuses. There's no team to blame. There's nothing. It's you. And more of the person.

Yeah, you learn how to lose. Um, I didn't lose that much in high school, you know, and when I did, I didn't shut down, but I, like, very upset at myself for why I lost. And I don't think at that moment I started understanding why I lost, you know, like it was more maybe my, my style of wrestling was so wild Then when I got to college, I got more structure, more technique. So then I started understanding why I lost. Losing so much, you learn how to lose. Or you better. You better learn how to lose. It's not going to be good. You know? I didn't like it. I didn't like losing. But I understood it was a part of it. Like, the only thing— and over time, you know, I just put it into perspective. Okay, the only thing you could do is learn from the loss. Okay, now what did you learn from? Okay, what, what did you learn? Okay, you can't do this, or this happened in this moment. Okay, okay, leave that shit there. Move on, move on, because it's another match coming up right now. You know, another match coming next week.

So yeah, wrestling really taught me how to learn from those losses. There are a lot of them. People are watching, right? People are watching. They can say anything like, you got your ass kicked, or whatever. They can say anything and you have to just take it on the chin. All right, well, I can't even tell them I'm gonna do better. It doesn't even matter, right? Like, you have to show them, right, by the work that you're doing. So it really taught me to just, yeah, learn from the losses, take what you can from it, but don't hold on to it, man. Bring it on to the next one, to the next one. Keep improving. Yeah.

What time— when did martial arts show up on the scene then? When did you start gaining interest in that?

I started seeing how big it was growing.

What year is this?

So this is like, my college career was from 2001 to 2005.

Okay.

I took a redshirt year, 2005. So I started seeing the UC grow. And at that time I was, my dreams were to keep wrestling and wrestle into the Olympics. When I got into my junior and senior year, wrestling just wasn't enough anymore. Like, I was getting pretty bored of it. Like, I didn't feel like I was a place that, uh, because there's certain rules, you know, it's just, it's grabbing, it's takedowns, it's escapes. Um, there's no strikes and no submissions, right? So then I started seeing fighting as, well, you can do more things there. you can kind of be more free to play around a lot more. So you can use the striking. And so I started seeing it and realizing, okay, I want to start doing that because wrestling just isn't cutting it for me anymore. You know, I want to learn this. I want to learn the striking. Like, I've never really done it before. I don't know if I'll be good at it, but I feel like in a fight I feel like there's nobody that can beat me already in college. Like, I feel like me learning these skills, growing, that I would start doing that.

So I knew my junior year that I would start fighting. And I told my college coach that. And college coach Tom Ortiz, still a good friend that I talk with all the time now. He just said, look, get done with your seasons, you know, and then we'll— I'll make sure we'll get you in touch with the right people that— of fighting that you want to do. So he got me in touch with AKA in San Jose. He says there's a good gym out there in San Jose, um, I think you should go there.

Who are you watching? Were you watching UFC and what, Pride at that time?

I wasn't watching a lot of it.

You weren't?

I wasn't, no. I watched like, I watched one fight, Tito and, uh, and Chuck Liddell fight. I'm like, man, I could do that. Yeah, I just watched one. It was just something that was in me. It wasn't like I watched all these fights and was like, I want to do that. No, I saw one, it was already within me. I want to start doing this.

Because I mean, it wasn't like it is,

yeah,

now back then. I mean, it was pretty Yeah, it's almost taboo.

One fight every, what, 3 months or something like that, maybe?

Yeah, I mean, gyms were— yeah, I don't know, but it seems like they were, from what I remember, far and few in between. It wasn't like, I'm gonna go check out this jiu-jitsu gym.

Exactly, exactly. No, but there's a few gyms in all these different places. There's even one in Arizona. Um, I saw— it was already within me that I'm gonna do this. I don't know what's going to come of it. I just, I feel like I have to go do this. I saw one, I saw the fight with Chuck and Tito and I'm like, I can do that. I can do it. Yeah. So then when I graduated with pretty, pretty good grades, like, yeah, I was pretty happy with that. I was like, ah, fuck, I did it. And I fucking— it was hard work, but I did it. I had pretty good grades. Like, ah, yes. Yeah, man. So I could have stayed around Arizona State and helped coach and all that. I packed up all my stuff in my car, everything I had, just packed up my car and drove out to San Jose. Um, without knowing anything. Like, it was hard, man, leaving like a life that I knew so well, good friends, you know, going to a place that I don't know, going to do something I don't know what I'm gonna do. Just a calling.

Holy shit. So you just left everything. It's something you really had no idea about. You just were like, I want to try that, I want to do it.

Yeah, that was it.

I'm out of here.

Yeah, that was it, man. It was— I just felt like I had to go do it. I don't know, again, like, I don't know what's going to come of it, but it— I didn't think of what could come from it. No, no, I just feel like I have to, like, engulf myself in this, you know, just like I did with everything else I did. That's it. Like, no, no expectations of what's going to come from it. Nothing like that. It was just, I feel like I have to go do this. Okay. Packed up my stuff in my car, went out to San Jose. And at the time, my parents, at that season, my parents were in Salinas. So they're about an hour away from San Jose. Wow. They're still doing the farm working. Right. And they, uh, they have a house in, in Salinas that they're, that they're renting to stay. So I went in and just started, just started.

So you live with them?

I started, yes, living with them and just being all day in San Jose. And they weren't— they're not— they're very good on like, let you do you. You don't need to— oh, you're out of school, you don't got like— oh, you gotta pay rent. And like, they weren't like that ever, ever. Like, oh, you need a car? You need a car fixed? Okay. Like, they're very good with that, both of them. Like, it wasn't like, no, no, not now. Now you got to help out. They were never like that. They're always just like, oh, you want to go do this? Okay. As long as you stay in school or do whatever you're doing, you're good. You know? So it wasn't until— I didn't have a pressure at home of like, oh, now I got to like help out, pay rent or anything. I was there rent-free and I'd be all day training.

So what was it like walking into that gym for the first time not knowing anything other than wrestling?

Uh, nerve-wracking. A little scared of not— yeah, like, okay, we get it's different now, you know. I gotta learn how to fight and I gotta fight these people here, training partners and all that. Um, So my coach Javier Mendez, I think it was my first little sparring, technique sparring, it wasn't even real sparring, technique sparring. First day, it was like the first time I even got in there and he saw me work with somebody and he even says it now, the story, but he, he knew that I, that I was going to be good at this just from that, just from watching me in the beginning without knowing any striking or anything, just wrestling, being able to go in and control guys, take them down, you know, getting hit on the way in. I didn't know how— I didn't know any defense or anything like that or how to strike, but the striking didn't scare me. Um, I didn't mind getting hit, you know. That's the thing about Other athletes coming into mixed martial arts or boxing or anything, like, how do you react when you get hit? There's a certain way. Like, you cannot be scared of it, and that's how it should be.

Or people get hit and then they don't like it, they cower away, they break down. So that wasn't, that wasn't me. Like, I, I didn't mind it at all. Like, it even gave me more, more fuel. So getting hit, boom, all right, take you down just, just to show you. So he knew right away that it'd be— that I'd be good. Um, and then I just— I saw him, of how he taught, Javier Mendez, of how he taught. I'm like, man, I get— I gotta, I gotta learn from him. Like, he knows it. Like, That teacher that I was looking for, like, in fighting was him. He knew. He knew. And what he taught in fighting, like, it translated to life too, you know? So I started to learn from him the fighting, everything, the mentality, the game plan, the giving and taking, and applying that. to, to my life as well.

Well, I mean, where do you start, huh? Where do you start?

Just get in there.

Get in there.

Just get in the gym. Yeah.

First thing he started teaching you,

just get into the gym. And then, okay, you have a back— you have a background in wrestling? Yes. Okay, what do we need? Okay, we need, uh, you got to learn striking, you know, you got to learn that. And you don't know the submission game, but you can control people on the ground, okay? But you don't know how to get us out of submissions. You don't know how to get people into submissions, but you know how to control people on the ground. So that's a good start already right there, right? And if you want to, you can take the fight to the ground and punch them. Like, it'd be very easy, easy that way. But he started showing me, um, kickboxing. On the feet, and simultaneously throughout the day I do jiu-jitsu as well. Right? So I was learning both at the same time, but to really dial my my striking in, like how to stand, how to how to use your footwork, what to what to use to engage in striking, what to use to set up your takedowns. Um, I felt like it was easier than wrestling because, because now we're not hunched over in a wrestling stance, we're standing up.

So if I'm trying to take somebody down, they're standing up, I want to take them down, right? And with striking, setting up the takedowns for the strikes made it so much easier than before.

Really?

Yeah, so I felt like it— I feel like it was easier, like, to get a takedown, to control somebody. Um, so I feel like MMA was easier than wrestling. Wrestling was harder. It was a lot— yeah, it was harder.

Interesting.

Yeah, so I just started.

What level are these guys at?

So Javier Mendez is a, is a world champion kickboxer. He's a world champion kickboxer. Um, so he started— so as far as the striking, uh, the boxing, the kicking, the knees, all of that, elbows, he knows all that very well. Very well. But he's very good on game planning and how to, how to be like, you do this to beat this guy. Like, that's where he's very good at. But the technique-wise as well, like, and me, I'm a visual person. So me seeing it, how it's done, I can do it right away. Mm-hmm. Like, show me how it's done because I'm, I'm gonna, I'm gonna be so detailed on like, on where your, your, your placements of your feet were, of your hands were, of your body was, of how you're shifting your body to get into, into a certain place. For me, being visual really helped. Like, I just had to tell him, okay, show me real quick how to do that. And I'd watch him do it a couple times. I'm like, okay, I got it. And then, then I'd start doing it. And then it was a thing of combining everything, everything that, that you know together.

So mix— mixing it up all nice and together, making it flow nicely instead of striking and then, oh, it's time to wrestle. Okay, striking. Oh, let me lower change, level change, take a shot and take somebody down. No, I made it flow very nicely together, made it look like it was all one, one movement. So like a fight scene, like you just— it would just flow into that. So I just—

You started at the top level, walking into the gym, competition, coaches, everything.

Yeah, high-level gym, um, high-level athletes already there, guys that have fought in the UFC, fought for titles as well. Um, yeah, best trainers. Um, guy was teaching jiu-jitsu at the time, Dave Camarillo. Um, learned a lot from his jiu-jitsu. He did a little bit of judo as well. Um, but I just, I just— Every, every day, every moment, like just put myself in there. So I was in pretty much fight training camp nonstop.

How many hours a day?

Like 5 or 6 hours a day. 5, 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. And

6 days a week, 5 to 6 hours a day.

Yeah. And then for like gas money, I started working at a, at a bar at night. Like bouncing like 3 days a week, 3 or 4 days a week bouncing, working out throughout the day. And I had enough for like gas money and maybe some food, you know? Yeah. So that's how I lived. And then it even got to a point where, okay, when I was doing that at night, working, bouncing at night, instead of driving home an hour to my parents' house, having to come back. I should have started just parking my car in different places and sleeping there. Yeah, I was like, well, I'll get more rest for training if I do this. So I started doing that.

I mean, do you want to talk about, you know, kind of the mentality that it takes to become a champion? I mean, From 7th grade on, you're right there, you know, junior, senior year, state championship. And then you had the mentality, you know, and we all know what you become, uh, you know, in your fighting career. But to graduate college and to just go right into it 100% at the top level.

Yeah, it just takes love. Loving what you're doing. If you love what you're doing, things are gonna happen. Like, you're gonna be blessed. Like, you— like, you go in with no expectations. I didn't go in to do fighting because I was gonna make a name for myself, money, none of that. No, no. I went in, like, to train, like, to fight every day. That's why I went in. That's why I did it. I didn't know there was a whole other aspect to this, notoriety, like people watching you, notoriety. I didn't get the money. I didn't get any of that. So the love of what I love to do brought me to all these places.

Well, what— I mean, if you say that, Because now you're what, 22, 23 years old, probably?

Yeah.

Eventually you have to make a living, right? So did you— I mean, did you—

do you?

Yeah, maybe not. But so you genuinely just went there because you wanted to learn and master it? You had no aspirations to become What happened? Become a UFC champion?

I just—

it was for love of, of the sport?

I knew I'd be good at it. Like, I just know, okay, I know I can do this. I know I can do this. But the process of training for me was process of self-discovery. It's learning something new that I feel like my mentality matches with it, my body matches with it in its own style. Um, I was just good at it from the, from the beginning. It's good at it. Um, But it was, it was getting, getting just lost in the process of developing myself, developing my skills, developing myself, getting lost in that. Like, that's all I needed, you know? And like, I'd be at the clubs and stuff, you know, working, and it's like people were asking like, what, what did you do? You know, like, what do you do? The normal question, right? It's like I didn't even like people telling people I was a fighter at the time. It was like the biggest pickup line, like, oh, I'm a UFC fighter. I wouldn't even say any of that. Number one, I wasn't in the, in the UFC, but number two would be like, I just say, I don't know, I just do this, I just bounce.

Like, keep it very simple. Like, nah, not, um, just being, being so into the process of developing. It was what I needed at the time for my soul, for my body, for my mentality. You know, no longer having school, which is for me was yes, like I'm I feel like I'm free. You know, I'm battling with these guys every day. It's a brotherhood. You know, we're bleeding every day. We're kicking each other's ass every day, and. It's kind of crazy to say, but it's in a loving way. Like, you kick their ass because you love them. You kick their ass in the gym so they don't get kicked— like, their ass kicked out in the real fight, right? Mm-hmm. So the way of showing love in the gym is to do that, is to beat somebody up, to beat their ass out there. Like, that's how you show them love. You make them better at that. You Iron sharpens iron. That's how you do it. So just being engulfed in the process, man, that was it. And then as I started fighting, started winning, so things started to come together.

How did you start fighting? I mean, how long were you training, learning?

Yeah.

Before it was time to compete?

So my first, uh, 6 months after training, I got my first fight.

In 6 months?

6 months. Uh, I fought in Strikeforce in San Jose. Um, again, the opponent being picked, like, it was a good matchup for me, you know? Like, he didn't have that strong of wrestling, but he fights, so beware, you know? But you have good enough stuff to, like, go ahead and, like, You know, uh, yeah, I could, uh, my coach too, like, uh, Javier Mendez was like, well, yeah, you can sandal them, you can beat them up anywhere, but why would you want to do that? Like, take the game to where you know the best. Take his ass down, beat him up on the ground. So we did that. Yeah.

How did it go?

Uh, knock, uh, stoppage by by, uh, a TKO stoppage in the first round. The first maybe a minute or 2, it took the guy down right away. They threw a kick, checked it, grabbed the kick, took him down, and then just beat him up on the ground. And they stopped it pretty, pretty quick.

That was your first match?

That was my first fight, yeah.

Holy shit. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, from then on, I probably a year or a couple months later, some, uh, I fought in Russia for a show called Bodog. Fought there, first round TKO. Um, again, took him down, did the same thing, broke my hand doing it. So I had to recover from it. Um, and then from then on until my UFC career, it might have been like a year or two.

That's it?

Might have been like 2 years, something like that. Um, okay, so, okay, but no, but no fights in between at all? None? So by that time, by my second fight, I was already pretty well known as he seemed to be the next up-and-coming heavyweight.

No shit.

Like, so people knew already, like, what I had, my pedigree of wrestling. They already talked about, like, I had people come into the gym, other, other fighters, professional fighters, and I beat them up, you know.

What do you mean they would come to the gym? They would come to the gym to train you?

Yeah, to train, uh, So other UFC fighters would come in to train and—

Like the UFC fighters that were already there or they were seeking you out?

Yeah, they come in like, you know, hey, we're going to train, you know, like you travel around training with other, other, other, other gyms, other camps.

They would seek you out to get better.

Whether it was me or if it was just, I want to go to this gym because you had me, you had Paul Bonatello who fought for a title in the UFC. He was another heavyweight. Um, we had another heavyweight, Mike Kyle. Um, guys that fought in like bigger shows. Mm. So we already had like a pretty good group of like big guys. And Paul is really good in the stand-up, like good hands, hit hard, fast hands for a big guy. Um, no, no wrestling, you know, um, or not, just not that good. But yeah, guys would come in that were either in the UFC or guys that are fighting in big shows. And I knew where I stacked up with everybody because I, I beat them up. Yeah, yeah. So between that time, those 2 years, I couldn't get a fight.

Why?

Because people wouldn't want to fight. So like, there— if you know, they wouldn't want to fight.

So they want to fight you.

So in the UFC, you get matched up. Right? And you really can't say no. Well, you can, but then they can put you on the back burner and say, okay, well, you don't want to fight, you know, like, you got to fight this dude, you don't want to fight him, what the fuck are you doing here, right? Mm-hmm. But when we're talking about smaller shows, people want a good record so they can get into the big show, right? They want to— they want it. So you kind of have to maneuver a lot more, like Tread lightly, like, like find a good matchup, like, or else there's no point. Like, other than, other than you, you're gonna get beat up or go through a war you don't have to. Save that for the big show. So that was more like the mentality. So yeah, I signed up for a lot of fights throughout that time, and all of them backed out. Like, either the guys, like the day of, uh, backed out for some, some reason. So they knew like, okay, probably gonna lose if I go against this guy. It's kind of what the mentality was.

Was that frustrating for you?

You just learn. Yeah, it was. But then you just learn like, I gotta make it make sense for me, right? And what the best way that I could do to make it make sense for me was, okay, you're not gonna get the opportunity to polish yourself in other fights. Mm-hmm. That's not gonna be your road. And even my coach, Javier Mendez, said like, you're gonna learn it from the gym and then you're gonna have to go to the big show. However that happens and when that happens, we don't know. But just continue the process, keep getting better, keep training. And the sparring that you're doing here, That's your fight.

So did you only do 2 fights, or were there— were there fights in between Russia and your first? That's it? 2 fights?

2 fights.

Well, how do you get your— I mean, so you get your name out by people, by people turning down fights. That's the only way, right?

So that and just the gym talking, you know, when you have like, uh, people doing interviews on like— they come in the gyms, they do an interview on like the gym itself. And they'll, you know, you already, within the fighting world, you already know who's at what gym, right? And the story of me going around that anybody comes in the gym, I'm beating them, it's pretty well known, right? Mm-hmm. The UFC didn't necessarily know about me like that much. And I remember my, One of the managers, Bob Cook, was calling the UFC and telling them about me. And, um, he was saying, well, we have this guy, he's very good, he's gonna be one— he's gonna be probably the champion coming up. And what the UFC says was, okay, well, put him up against Andrei Arlovski, like, right away. Well, that's going from, yeah, 0 to 100. already, you could do that. But, uh, Bob Cook did it very well. He said, no, no, well, look, you don't know what you have here, okay? You're gonna have to bring him up a little bit. You will, but he'll, but he'll, he'll be good, okay? So these talks back and forth with the UFC, finally, uh, Dana, Dana White was okay with, hey, let's set up a training session.

In in Vegas, okay? And all guys you have me, Mike Kyle, I think Christian Wallace was another guy that's fighting in the UFC currently. Said, "Look, have him come over." Just Bob Bob told Dana, "Look, just just watch him train. That's all you got to do. Just watch." So went to Vegas to the, uh, to The Ultimate Fighter, um, gym in that, in that ring there, in that, that cage. And we had a full-on sparring session, me against those 2 guys. So me out there the whole time going rounds with those 2 guys, and Dana White was there and he watched. And afterwards he said, well, why isn't he in the UFC yet? So he signed me on the spot.

Holy shit. How did that feel?

Fucking amazing, man. Fucking nervous going in, you know, but just do what I do. I did it and it was like, yeah, it was like, wow, okay, like amazing. Yeah, but like, like, now I'm there, okay? Now I'm at the show, right? Now I'm at the biggest organization in the world, um, but now this is where the work starts. So even though I'm there, like, now, now the road is gonna start.

Damn, man, 2 fights. Holy shit.

Yeah.

Let's take a quick break.

Okay.

Cool. Yeah.

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What do you think?

I think we went, but I think they lied about a lot of stuff.

You do think? What do you think they lied about?

I think they found some stuff on there, up there they weren't supposed to.

Probably being a designated driver for the SEAL teams, which means you pretty much just drive a bunch of Drunk, angry SEALs that struck out at the bar. What's the closest you've come to walking away from your platform entirely?

There's been some times where the workload was so much that it was affecting my health. I was just getting sick. I was actually getting mentally and physically ill from the— for the workload and the pressure.

I get really irritable if I don't see my kids. What's the one thing you want people to say about your body of work in 20 years? All right, so you get picked up by Dana White watching a training session in the UFC. Where do we go from here?

Um, Had my first fight with, uh, yeah, first fight, guy named, uh, Brad Morris. Uh, fought him in, um, where Matt Serra fought GSP, Georges St-Pierre, their second fight.

What— I mean, what changed? Did anything change? Did your training change? Or was it just—

No.

Same pace, same thing?

Yeah, as far as training, doing the same things, just, uh, improving, you know, improving. Uh, I wasn't all there yet, you know. I had, I had pretty good technique everywhere. I wasn't a natural strong puncher. Um, So hitting people, like, I wouldn't really drop them too much, you know, especially my beginning of my career. I wasn't— it wasn't like that. So I could punch fast, I could punch all that, but, um, I wasn't doing a lot of damage. Um, so you can see that in my first couple fights. People even started, like, again, commenting on that, that I can't punch hard, so I wouldn't be as good.

What was your nickname?

So I didn't have one.

Um, Cardio Kane.

So, okay, I didn't have an official nickname. Okay, um, after a while, the Spanish-speaking countries called me El Toro. El Toro.

Bull.

The Bull. They call me the Bull. So Spanish-speaking countries, that stuck. So in Mexico, anywhere else like that, that stuck. But in the US, yeah, they call me— it wasn't a nickname that stuck, but it was more of like I think that's what I'm known by. So yeah, they— yeah, Cardio Cain. Yeah.

Why do they call you Cardio Cain?

Because I can go, man. I can keep going. Just keep going. Keep putting pressure on. That was my wrestling style too. High pace for a big guy. A high pace. And I can move around pretty good. So I move around like a smaller guy, fast. But I always wrestled against bigger guys. Like, I was weighing 240, 250 when I wrestled, and the weight limit's 285. Some wrestling guys, 285, even heavier, they gotta cut weight. So I got really used to competing against big guys. So when I fought, I fought around 240. Weight limit for the UFC heavyweights, 265. So I always fought guys that were much bigger, much taller, much heavier than me. More of a smaller, mid-sized, small heavyweight. Yeah.

Was that new to you? Mm-mm. Wasn't?

No.

Same as training?

Yeah, it was the same as training. It was the same as when I wrestled. And, uh, I competed against a lot of big guys, so I knew the best way of beating them. Would be they're gonna get tired, like, after a certain amount of time. Then that's when I start scoring. Um, same thing in fighting, and I got to use my speed and my, my footwork. I gotta use my speed, my quickness. Um, in fighting, again, it was a little easier. It actually was. Like, I don't got to hold on to somebody and move their body around like in wrestling. That's what you got to do, right? So moving the mass of 285 around and trying to get under them and take them down is a little more difficult than in a fight. If you're much quicker than them, hit them first and get out before they even hit you. So it became a little easier. I saw it as it was easier than, than wrestling.

Interesting. But you, you've said, you know, in your training sessions you would train until you feel like Felt like you were going to die. Is that metaphorical,

or— I just, I gave myself to every training session. Like, I get— I, I gave everything I had. Like, I had no left, nothing left for me to do, like, except for rest, recover, and go on to the next. So you got a 2-hour practice. Right? You have drills maybe you start out with, and I'm trying to— I'm winning. I'm trying to beat the— win the drills every time. Every position, I'm winning every position. I'm going as hard as I can each position. Um, but even if we're working with somebody, like, I do a move, then I let them do the move. I let them do the move, whether it's like a takedown. Let them do a takedown, but then I don't just land like on the takedown and like, okay, get me up, or land on the takedown, then stand up. No, no, I transition to that takedown as I'm going and getting taken down. I'm going into what's next and what's next. So that's getting away, escaping, separating, reversal, right? So I'm doing that into my training. So I'm like literally every moment going into that choreography, I guess you would say, of the fight ongoing.

Like I'm not stopping. I'm going, I'm chain wrestling. I'm going to the next move, to the next move. I'm never stopping moving. And as soon as I get up to my feet, we go back again. So What I try to teach guys now that are like— that I see fighting or that I see— you have a 2-hour training session, you start doing drills. Now there's a way to do it. You do a move, maybe a takedown, boom. Guys usually get taken down, they lay there, they pick themselves up, they walk back to where they were at, then do it again. My train of thought was We do a certain move, whatever, whatever, get taken down here, roll into the takedown, into something else, into an escape, into a reversal. So it doesn't— so the movement never stops. Then when you stand up, your opponent's in front of you, then you start going again. So then now you're getting all these reps in. Like, it's a— now the workout is a continuous workout. Mm-hmm. It's not stop, go, stop, go. So no, man, I, I just— I really just died to it. Like, I, I left everything every training session.

Like, there was nothing left for me to give. Like, I did it all in this condensed amount of time for 2 hours. I'm giving you all that I have. And I did that every day. Um, and I just love that. I love to push myself to that, to where I'm fucking next. Like that. After that, I'm just dehydrated, like, so much. Like, I really just need IV, but fuck it, you know? Like, I battled. I battled every day. I got to be free for these 2 hours in this moment. I get to be free, let everything out.

How long was it? How long was it before— so you signed. How long did it take for you to get a fight?

Uh, it might have been a 3 to, uh, 3 to 6 months, around there. Yeah, yeah. I had my first fight, uh, is in, uh, Quebec, Canada.

How was that? I mean, an introverted guy, 2 fights in front of a ton of people. I mean, not, not a— probably not a big audience, but nothing like, nothing like the UFC, right? And then you're thrown into that.

So me wrestling at the national tournament in college, you got a stadium full. Maybe they're not watching, and maybe not everybody's watching your match, but majority of people are as well. Okay. Right? So that helped me to like block them away, focus on what I gotta do. So that fight in Quebec, George St-Pierre, Matt Serra too. Was a big card, but I'm one of the first ones fighting, so not the whole stands aren't full yet. They mainly show up for the main card. So I felt like it was like I was in that, that national tournament again where— Put the blinders on, man. Yeah, you gotta do these interviews and all that, whatever, like You got a whole week to kind of process this and just go out there and like just free yourself, you know, be, be free for a moment in the chaos,

basically.

Yeah, I was. Yeah, went in first round TKO again, um, with strikes on the feet, strikes on the ground.

Um, first round?

First round, yeah. Uh, the referee let the fight go on a little too long. The guy that I was fighting took a little bit of a beating. He shouldn't have taken that. He should have stopped it way earlier. So because my fight ended so early, if the later fights end early as well, they'll put one of those undercard fights on the main card on TV. But mine didn't get shown because it was too— it was too, uh, it was too one-sided. Like It was bad. They should have stopped it way earlier. So yeah.

What— I mean, what did that feel like then? You're at the top level now, and is that— is that exciting for you? Is that a disappointment for you? Were you expecting better competition?

No, no, not better. No. Um, I just felt like that was the first step of many steps to go. Mm-hmm. In this, in this, right? Like, if you— if the goal is to get that, that belt, you know, is— well, the goal is not to get that. The goal is to show that you can beat everybody. Mm-hmm. Right? To that competition in front of you and that you have better skills than they have all around. Like, that's the goal. And that was just the first step of, of more challenges to come.

How many fights did you go before you got the opportunity to fight for the championship?

I think I was 9-0. I think, I think 9 fights around there, like 9 fights maybe, um, something like that. Yeah, so I fought, uh, Minotauro Nogueira, and we fought in Australia, and we knew the winner of this would, would be fighting for a title. And Minotauro Nogueira, one of the best jiu-jitsu guys out, um, one of the best jiu-jitsu guys in heavyweight probably ever, and He's, uh, he has a really good chin, like doesn't get knocked out, doesn't get knocked out, nothing like that. Um, so I knew he was just very dangerous, very dangerous. Um, and again, my fights before this, I didn't really hit hard, right? So you want to know my, uh, My nickname before.

Yeah.

So they started calling me— people started calling me Pillow Hands on social media, right? Because I didn't hit hard. I didn't knock people down. Like, I hit them. Yes, I hit them a bunch of times, but I didn't hit them hard. And we got to a point in training where I developed all these skills. Okay. Yes. Now, focusing on the power, like, like, look, you don't hit hard naturally. You don't. Okay. But how, like with Javier, with Mendez, like, how are we gonna get that from you? So we really started working on that, and that's body placement. Lowering your level, having your knees bent, um, throwing, throwing everything from your hips as if you're like chopping wood and you're throwing your hips in. You're not, you're not letting your arms do the work, you're letting your body do the work. So it was that. So really focusing on that, and it really helped me develop like what it means to fully commit. And I'm just not talking about striking, I'm talking about fully commit to everything. Fully commit yourself. That's with position, being in the right position and giving all of yourself. So again, people don't want to get hit.

Hmm. They go in and like give a little touch and try to get it. They're thinking about Getting quick in, touching, and then getting out just as fast as they went in. But when you fully commit, you don't think of that. All you're thinking is, look, my hands are in the right place, so if he were to hit me, then he hit me, but my hands are in the right place. I'm guarding as much as I can. My level's lowered, and I'm throwing my hip, I'm throwing my shoulder. I'm fully committing. To this movement right here. I don't care what happens afterwards, but I'm gonna give you all of this. Now, as soon as that punches out, it starts to come back, that's when you go ahead and get out. So I really started like— it was more of like taking my time to fully commit to that, but giving all of myself. Like, I'm giving you all of this. I'm taking my time. It's gonna be a little slower, but being done right, it's great outcomes will happen. So with Nogueira, I knocked him out. No shit. On the feet. On the feet. Yeah, yeah.

Um, game plan for him was just not to tie up with them, don't wrestle with them. If you do wrestle with them, like, throw them instead of like landing on them. Like, don't land on them. So play your stand-up game, punches and kicks. And we were doing that, like, and I was, I was scoring pretty well. And then he comes in and I come in and I, and I fucking just throw his right hand, it's around the button, and I'm fucking— again, I'm lowered. I, you know, I did what I practiced. So he falls, I see him fall, but then also thinking in my head like, okay, he doesn't get knocked out, so you gotta make sure Right. So as he fell, I passed his legs, came around, and hit him with more shots on the ground, but like fucking hard. Like, because he's dangerous, he'll, he'll, he'll get up and start, start his thing, you know. So I had to make sure that it'd be done, which for me was hard because he was, he was a guy that I looked up to. Um, If I had to choose somebody to, to not fight, it'd be him.

He's just a good person. He, he's just— he's a pillar of the sport, what he's done in his career and, and how he's done it, you know. So I respected him a lot. So for me to like to do that was, was hard.

Is that the first person you fought that you were thinking, holy shit, I'm fighting this guy?

No, he wasn't. But he was, um, just again, his certain set of skills, like I had to bring a certain type of game plan to match up against his skills perfectly. So, so I, so I could come out on top and win. Everybody has their own like puzzle. Everyone has their own chess game. Everyone plays a certain way. Everybody has their own strengths and weaknesses. And The game plan is what's the best way to win against that with my game, with what I have. Mm-hmm. Body positioning, body size, the way you move, your mentality, your skill level, the good techniques you bring. So it's a hand-to-hand combat war. That's what we're doing.

Who was the first person that you got matched up with that you were thinking, oh shit, I can't believe I'm fighting this guy? Was it— did you have that moment, or had you already fought all of them in training?

I just knew that there'd be nobody that can beat me, and in training there was nobody that could. Um, So when I fought Brock Lesnar, I feel like I had the recipe to beat him. And that was interesting as well. Just, I feel like me and my coaches knew already, okay, like, he's good at this, but the things that he's good at, I'm really good at too. Like, he's good at taking people down and beating them and like beating them up on the ground. But I'm really good at standing up, so I didn't even care to get taken down with him. It wasn't like I was, I was avoiding it. No, no, no. We, we actually worked so much on like— I had Daniel Cormier, I was sparring him, and my coach, uh, Bob Cook, uh, one of the managers and also coaches as well at the time, um, said, okay, this is what we're doing this whole camp. When you're sparring, Whenever I say, Cain, get down, that's what you're doing, okay? You're gonna get on your back and you're gonna have these guys lay on you. When— and in any position, at any moment in the, in the sparring, this is what you got to do.

I said, okay. So sparring rounds and rounds and rounds, I'm tired, right? I'm— I have the better position on Daniel, maybe. And then Bob Cook says, Cain, get down. I stop what I'm doing, get on my back, open up like this, and have DC start wherever he wants to start on me, and me just get up and get away. So I wasn't afraid of him taking me down. He took me down 3 times, but right away he took me down, I got up. I was very good at falling down, letting that— the— The momentum. the canvas be your springboard to, like, maneuver into something else, just like I had to train normally. So that's what I did. Um, took me down, I stood up right away. And when you do that to somebody, that kills their will, man. It's a lot to get that takedown, like, especially how he does it when he picks people up. Like, you're picking up £240, drop them down on the ground, and then within an instant they're up and away. Like, that kills you. That, that kills you. That kills your cardio. That also kills your, your will to like, I can't keep him down, so why am I going to keep doing this?

I'm just going to tire myself out. So I made it a stand-up game. So we fought in stand-up, and he didn't like to get hit, so that's when I could start working.

Shit.

Yeah.

And how long was it before you fought him? Your career up to that point?

I might have been, uh, 10 or 11-0, I think. Um, something like— um, I'm not, I'm not sure like what my record was, but, um, I fought him after Nogueira. Um, I fought him I think 2010.

2010.

Yeah, I was 28. Yeah, yeah.

How did you beat him?

TKO stoppage. Um, so, so he's a freak of an athlete. I knew just my coaches and I knew that we had the recipe, right? But I could see everyone else Even Daniel tells me later, he's like, man, when you fought him, I didn't tell you, but I was just like, I don't wanna be fighting that guy. Right? So just how, just how he looks. I mean, he's a freak athlete, you know, played in the NFL, national champion wrestler, big dude, right? 265 weight limit. But I mean, he probably cut who knows how much to make that. Pure muscle, right? And that's not me. Um, so I knew like everyone around me, and they're like, oh shit, he's gonna go fight him. Like, he's gonna go, you know, he's gonna go die, right? Like that kind of thing. Um, and then yes, standing in front of him, like, this is a massive dude right here, okay? Even though he doesn't like to exchange. He has power, so you get hit with that, it's not gonna be good. Okay, so you still gotta— you gotta be cautious everywhere. And then as soon as I remember going out there and fighting, as soon as I tied up with him, like in the first initial, we tied up like this and he had me against the cage.

I would say 99% of people, when they get me here, I can maneuver myself out of there pretty easily by shifting their weight and me getting out. With him, I wasn't. Like, I was stuck. Like, there's so much power pushing me against the cage that I was like, okay, he's not moving. I'm not gonna move him. I'm not gonna get myself out of here. So I kind of have to wait until he does something. So I remember, like, there's a canvas and the cage here. Within the canvas, you have a little, little slightly little opening, like very, like almost nothing. I remember jamming my foot in there, like, I gotta, like, make this hard for him to, like, get me— wake, you know, like, uh, take me down. I remember jamming my foot in there, like, getting my foot nice and in there and, like, um, kind of grounding myself to the, to the cage. Well, he picks me up, like, like, nowhere, like, out of nothing. Like, he picks my legs up and everything. And but as I'm falling, I'm like, I'm falling like a cat. I'm like, as I'm falling down, I'm going on all fours instead of going on my back and let him lay on me.

I'm falling like a cat, like I'm going on all fours so I can just kind of jump up. And I did that. So he stopped taking me down after those 3, those 3 attempts that— well, those 3 takedowns that he got on me. He stopped anymore from there. So got to work to stand up a little bit. like hit him with some shots, and then I took a shot on him and I took him down. Like, and that's never been done before. Like, nobody's ever like taken him down. So it was like— so I was on— so, but he stayed down there. He didn't fucking like get up right away. He stayed down on all fours so I could start working. So I started punching him, you know, from the ground, from this like, uh, we're in referee's position. So he was down on all fours, I was on top of him. punching either side. And then when I hit him with a couple really good ones, like lit a fire in him, I'm like, get up, time to get up. So he got up. I tried to go in on his leg again and he was so heavy.

So I'm like, oh no, no, I gotta let this go. Like, he's too heavy. Let it go. Working on the feet again. And then I think he kind of like came in maybe for a shot and I caught him with like a hook or something, like a body, like his face. His face. And my hand like perfectly timed as he was coming in. So I hit him with that. He started like doing these 360s, like spins. Like he's just like, he's trying to gather his feet. I don't know if it rocked him or what, but he's trying to gather his feet. He's doing these like spins. And I'm like slowly, I'm not running to him. I'm like slowly, like, like I learned this from, from years and years of training until like Somebody gets hurt, you don't know what you have. You don't know what state they're in. It may look like they're knocked out or whatever, but you can't just like jump and pounce on them because you don't know what state that they're in. So I was very used to like methodically, just slowly, I just kind of slowly followed him, followed him like, hey, what am I going to get when he turns and faces me or if he falls?

Ends up facing me, hit him with a couple punches. Um, and I fucking caught him with a good knee. Like, his head went down. I fucking just put my hip into that shit, dude, right in his face. Dropped him from there. And then his other fights, when he got in trouble in the, in the striking, um, even though he doesn't like to get hit, it's not like he's knocked out. Okay, so he's more like covering up, like, like waiting for you to be done or waiting for you to tire, tire yourself out. Right. So I knew, okay, I can't do that with him. You got to pick my shots, make sure they're— so he's nice and covered up like this, so he's not moving to get up. Put my knee on his belly, and I just started opening his hands up and like throwing elbows in there. And I cut him pretty big, like big old, big old cut on his face. Um, but I was just doing that. Moving out of his hands, out of the way, so I wasn't hitting his hands. And like hit elbow, punching him, um, to where he stood up again, knocked him down again.

And then I just saw the referee coming closer and closer, like it's about to be stopped. So I can't pay that any attention. I just keep working, keep hitting those shots, keep hitting those shots, keep getting good shots in. Then the referee stopped it. Damn. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The referee stopped it. Um, I remember that moment, like, it was like everything you worked for was for this moment right here. Everything you've ever done was for this moment right here. And it felt— it was dreams come true. Like, fucking, they do. They fucking come true. Like, they do.

No limitations.

No limitations. They come true. That moment was that. Like, dreams come true. Everything you work for was for this one moment right here, and you fucking did it. Like, You did it. I remember that. It was that right there, that moment. Yeah.

It's crazy you remember every detail of that fight like that.

Yeah.

From 2010, 16 years ago.

Yeah. I just think I'm so like, I was so present in that moment. Everything, like, I'm examining, I'm calculating, you know, I'm so into the moment. I'm not thinking about anything else, like nothing else, like, but what's in front of me right here, right now. So you're so hyper-focused on what's in front of you. And then just that moment of when it was finished, it was like, this is why you— this is why you do the things you do. This is why you This is why you struggle right here. This is why you put the work in. This is why you kill yourself, like in all these places. Like, this is what it's for right here. Not for the belt, no, but to say, but to climb that, that mountain and to be at the top. Mm-hmm. That's what it's for.

What's your thought process afterwards? I mean, there's nothing left to climb.

Yeah, um, it was like, it was so weird, uh, afterwards. Um, it was like, what just happened? Because It just felt like a dream, you know, like too good to be true kind of thing. I couldn't even believe in myself, like kind of thing. Then as much as it, like the attention that I got after that was way more like to where people started, like even in the UFC, they started treating me a little different. Like that night, the hotel that they had me at, they put me at a better hotel, you know? I was like, what? I was like, what? Like, what just happened? And I remember I had a nightclub— like, I would normally do nightclub appearances after the fight to, like, make a little extra money, you know? Nightclub I went to that night, it was like the whole nightclub was just staring at you, right? Mm-hmm. Like, music's playing. Nobody's dancing, nobody's doing their thing, they're just looking at you, right? And it's just like, I just felt fucking— again, that awkwardness of notoriety, of attention being brought on me came back. And I was like, this is fucking weird. I was just like, though what I accomplished is something different, like, I'm still the same person that I've always been.

Why? Like, it's something to learn from.

Did you ever get used to that?

I did. I did. I have. Fighting has really got me to a place to open myself up a lot more.

How did you get used to that? I'm curious.

Practice.

Because people When you reach a certain level of fame, people look at you, they get excited, they freeze up, they can't believe it's you, they can't believe what you look like. And when you're not on TV, people get to be, you know, it gets to a point where they have a loss of words.

Yeah, yeah.

And then, and, and I've maybe experienced like a fraction of what you have, but it's— it is awkward. And it is like, that's what I say, and that's what I think. I'm like,

yeah,

um, same person.

Yes, it's just practice. For me, it was just practice, like doing it over and over again. More interviews I did, the more I opened up and got okay with letting people inside. Those interactions, those one-on-one interactions, like what really helped me with that is as I saw people, I started seeing like my family in them. I started seeing like cousins, people that I grew up with.

What do you mean you saw family in them?

Whether it was a stranger talking to me out of nowhere, like, like I saw a familiar— like them very familiar to me as like, oh, you're just like my cousin. Like, you're just like my— like, like you're just like them, right? Mm-hmm. So I started seeing something very familiar in people, a closeness. Like, like you're not just a fan. No, no, you're somebody else. But yes, you enjoy like what I do, and all you're doing is giving praise or creating that connection. You're connecting with me at acknowledging me, and I'm acknowledging you. Mm-hmm. I'm not— the way I started thinking about it, because I would think— I went through all phases of it, like, don't bother me, like, People asking me who I am, like, hey, are you Kane Velasquez? Like, no, it's not me, right? Like, I went through all those areas of avoiding it. Even people like signing autographs, like, I'd make sure like that I would personalize them so they wouldn't sell them, right? So also all of that, like, I avoided it all until I really started seeing the familiar sides to people. Where they're acknowledging me, now I'm acknowledging you.

Okay? Because there's something deeper within you. And in the higher level, I just felt like, well, this is what you're doing. Like, this is what's brought before you. Like, God has put you in this every position. Including you to interact with somebody in that moment. That's already written right there too. So as they're acknowledging me, I'm acknowledging them and I'm giving them time now. I just started doing that. I started being patient with people, being time with— having spending time with them, even if it's a short interaction. But I opened myself up to give them time, to give of myself.

Were you married at the time? Yes. Do you have a daughter at the time? Yes. How much time were you willing to give people that you don't know and take away from your wife and daughter?

That was the hardest part right there, was us doing family time together, us eating. You know, and being disrupted in that way to like to take a picture, doing family things. I remember with my time with my wife being, you know, in a kiss together to our being disrupted to take a picture. Right?

Mm-hmm.

So just the more that I dealt with it, I just realized like To have a balance with it. The best way that I could was, yes, there are certain times where you can like interrupt somebody and sometimes that aren't most appropriate, but people don't know what they're doing, you know? And the best way to do it is to let your family understand What's going on beforehand. So it's not necessarily anymore that you're getting bugged or that you're being bothered. It's more of, look, I tell my kids this, like, look, I've done these things in my past. People love me for that, okay? And they just want time. That's it. Like, the time I give you, like, I give you all of my time, like, when I'm with you here. They just want a little bit of time to say hi, take a picture, to say thank you, and that's it. Okay, so now putting gas in or something like that, like pumping gas, somebody sees me and my kids are seeing that, like, and they say, hey. And I say, hey, what's up? Have a cool little interaction. Where my kids think I knew them, no longer are they a stranger.

They're like, did you know them? Who was that? Like, I don't know. He said his name was so-and-so, but he just wanted to say hi. The picture, right? So me accepting it more and being again, I'm called to do this. Like, this is written already in my life to do this at this moment right here. Every moment. That I'm living is made exactly for me perfectly. So how do I want to go through it all? And now all those interactions, I, I just give, I give, I share, I acknowledge them, say thank you, like, thank you, thank you for your time, thank you for— and it's no longer, it's no longer a It's easy. It's easy. It's beautiful, beautiful connections that we make. Just a quick little, you know, like, I appreciate the souls coming together and interacting. Yeah.

Right on. Good way to be.

Yeah, yeah. You make, you make life what you make it, you know. Like, however you wanna be in life, you can make it. Mm-hmm. So if I wanna be in love with life every day, then I gotta be— that's gotta be within me. And I gotta let that out. People are gonna gravitate towards that. And some people are not gonna like it at all either. That's okay too. But that's not— nothing's gonna take me away from me loving life. Of what God is doing for me every moment of every day. Every moment is for me to go within and understand myself. There are no accidents that it's all written. It's already there. It's in life. It's unfolding in front of you for you, for me to grow into what I need to grow into. So how do I want to do that? Well. If that's the case, then I'm going to fucking dive deep into it and make this life as magical as I can. That's what I'm going to do. And I'm going to share that with people, whether you like it or not. That's just me. I'm going to share it.

Have you talked to Brock Lesnar since then? Did you talk to him after that fight?

We did. We did a WWE wrestling match afterwards.

You did?

I did a wrestling match with him. Um, he kind of fucked me over on that because like, I'm not a wrestler like him, you know? So I'm like, dude, like, let's do something together so we can fucking make this shit look good. And he just— well, he's just not there with that, like, to work with people like that, you know? But yeah, yeah, he talked a little bit and I think we had a better understanding of like who we are. Just a little, you know, like, brother, I don't take it personal, man. It's just, you know, we fucking did it back then. It's all good.

You guys talk today,

huh? No, no, I don't think he talks to many people in general. Um, and then I don't talk to many other fighters either. Um, but like, we follow each other. I follow people on social media, guys that I fought with. Follow them. I like their stuff, you know, like support them, you know, and that— and whatever I could do for them, I'm there, you know, whatever they need, like, I'm there. Um, I would love, I would love to, uh, take some of those guys and do some plant medicine with them. I would love to do that, have a healing session with all our guys that I battled with.

Who do you admire today? Admire? It's in the ring. Hmm? It's fighting.

Fighting? Oh, uh, I don't watch fighting too much, but I see a lot of like stuff that I see a lot of like, uh, people's fights later on social media. Um, I like them all. Yeah, I don't think there's any— I'm not like a fan of it like I used to be, but I know guys now have certain skills. Like, um, I think, uh, Islam, one of my teammates, one of Khabib's guys, the, uh, Khabib and Islam. Islam Um, it's fucking so skilled in the game, like fucking good everywhere, to where when he was coming up, I'd spar with him, like light sparring, and he, he hit me with stuff. And nobody hits me with stuff, but he hit me with stuff. I'm like, what the fuck did that come from? Like, so I'm like, this guy's good. But everybody has something great that brings— that they bring to the table, and I enjoy just where the sport is now. I feel like it's gotten so popular, and I knew it was gonna happen. It's gotten so popular, the guys have gotten so polished, so good everywhere, that it's getting to a place, or pretty near where it needs to be.

Like, people know that this is This is a high-level combat sport at the highest level. And it's opened up the way to a lot more people doing jiu-jitsu, a lot more people wrestling now in high school. You know, girls wrestling in college is one of the fastest growing sports in the world.

Is it really?

It is.

No shit.

I believe it all has to do with mixed martial arts and the UFC, mixed martial arts in general, and the UFC's the pinnacle. Yes, yes. So it's opened up all these doors, and I feel like when I was in it, it was in a stage of going through that door. It wasn't there yet. It wasn't there yet. I remember going— they had me do a lot of publicity stuff in Mexico. So when I first started fighting, they knew I spoke, you know, some Spanish and all that, my background, that I could be a good, like, uh— Promoter. good person to go there and help the sport grow in Mexico and like Latin-speaking countries. And when I first got there doing like PR with like newspapers and TV, dude, they looked at me like, what the fuck are you doing? Like, what are you— like, they couldn't believe that me, like, they call me pocho, which is like raised in the US. don't know that good of Spanish, you know, like you're bringing this sport over to here, like a sport, like the sport that's fucking cockfighting for humans, you know. That's what, that's what it was looked at back then.

Oh shit.

So it was looked at back then, and people that are not, again, that didn't know anything about it, that were, they were ignorant to it, were, yeah, like this is just street fighting, like it's not even a fight, it's not even a sport. whatever, you know. And that's kind of how I got— that was like the— my first couple times of being welcomed into Mexico, uh, supporting a brand, a sport, right? To where for me, dude, again, it was like all those things of like growing up. Like, I grew up speaking Spanish first, my first language, okay? Then I went to school where I didn't speak English that well, and it was like, okay, well, you don't— it was almost like, yeah, you don't fit in, okay? And then as I started speaking more English and my, my brothers and sisters spoke English, my mom could speak English very well, so we spoke English at the home naturally. So I started losing a lot of my Spanish because my dad was always working, to where I had people on the other side more Mexican Spanish-speaking people to where like, you don't speak that good of Spanish.

So it was again like I didn't fit in anywhere, right? I'm not good here, I'm not good here. My parents would say the same thing. I don't feel like you guys either. Like, I don't go— like, but again, like, I don't give a fuck. Like, I'm going within. I know it doesn't— like, it doesn't matter how good I can speak any fucking language. I can barely speak English sometimes, you know? Like Like, what about this? Like, what about this? What about this? Like, no, you're basically— so I went through that again, right? Uh, Mexico City, like doing that. And again, I just had to be like, dude, I just kind of had to laugh at it during the interviews. I just laughed at it and said, look, This is what the sport is. You're gonna love it later on, and I just know you will. But it's okay if you don't either. But this is what I got. I just had to give up, like, hey man. And then with winning, winning more and more really brought it— me winning more and more brought more popularity to it. especially in that, in, in that, in that area of the world.

What are your parents thinking?

They're just proud, man. They're just happy, proud. Like,

I'll bet.

Like, yeah, they're just, you know, they come

to the fights.

They did. They would come some of the fights. Um, they come some of the fights, you know, family members coworkers, people in town, just showing them love, you know? Like, yeah, yeah, it was, uh, yeah.

Who was your first loss?

First loss against, uh, Junior Dos Santos. Yeah, um, I got knocked out pretty quick, the first loss. Um, So I don't think my dad watched any more fights after that.

Really?

He said it was hard to watch. Yeah, it was hard. It was hard for him to watch. Uh, I can understand why. Um, but when is the—

when is the last time you had lost? I mean—

Before that?

Yeah. Was it— Was it college wrestling?

Yeah, college wrestling. Holy shit. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, college wrestling. Um, yeah, that was a good— I mean, that was a good learning lesson again, you know. Um, it was a big show. I had a lot of pressure going in, and I was kind of injured going in as well. Like, my knee was pretty injured where I couldn't— I couldn't kick. I couldn't even, like, wrestle. I couldn't get down, like, take somebody down. And what I needed to do for him, for Junior, was to do that. So I wasn't the best going in, but I, but I, I also rushed it as well. I was like, well, instead of taking time off and telling them I'm hurt and take more time to like recover and all that, I just went ahead and did it without— with like, I don't want to let anybody down, you know? So I learned, I learned like— and Junior did his thing, man. He's a great athlete, great— Fighter took me out pretty quick, so I understood. Like look, make sure you're 100% correct for everything before you do anything. Make sure you're prepared how you have to be because somebody like him, you can't do that going in.

There's no way. There's no way. Even even at your best, like it's slim to win against him. So he was Junior, man. I love him for the competitor that he is. Like, he brought out something in me that I had to like, I had to like really dig deep for, you know. It was like, it was like the fights with him were like my masterpiece right there. Like, but with only, with only an opponent like him would that, would it bring this out of me. You know, so yeah.

How did you— I mean, how did you process that loss after not losing for years and years and years?

I was good with it.

It was fine?

Yeah.

And then you rematched and—

No, I was just— I knew what I— again, I understood what I did to not win, you know. I understood that and it's okay. It's like, it's all good. I feel like people around me really started, like, coaches and stuff, really, like, it freaked them out more. And that was the hardest part, was to, like— not Javier. Me and Javier were always very good here. We were always on the same level. But some people started saying, like, that Javier changed the game plan to only stand up with him. But then like, it's like, what? You wouldn't— you weren't here the whole camp. You didn't know I couldn't wrestle? You know, like, you know what I was going into, into a fight with. So that was the hardest part. Like, people around me just are like— I had to like block them away and just say like, look, it's okay. It's okay. All right? I know what I have to do. Like, what you guys are doing right now, freaking out, is not doing anything. It's not doing any good. It's messing me up. So like, leave, you know, leave kind of thing. Yeah. So no, I just knew like you have to be prepared, you have to be ready.

Somebody like him, you got to be fucking polished, you know. And training for him, the second— my second fight, um, so I got— I got a— I fought Bigfoot after that. I knocked him out and also— oh no, I knocked him out, I got TKO. And he, um, I cut him up pretty bad. He was fucking bloody, you know, really like bloody. So Junior really helped me get that, that hunger back, like more hungry. Okay. And then when I fought him the second time, man, I fucking digged into like everything that I had. I went into like the dark with it. You know, that, like, I'm gonna fucking really die out there. I'm gonna give you everything I have. Everything. I don't care if I fucking get so tired that I fall. Nothing. Nothing. I'm gonna keep this up the whole time. 25 minutes nonstop. I'm gonna be on you. I'm gonna attack you every which way. And I really had to go to a dark place for that. Like, I'm gonna go out and kill. If he dies as we're doing it, fine. That's what I'm looking for. And if I die doing it, then that's okay as well.

So—

Shit.

I really went into like a dark place with myself of like, this is what needs— this is where you need to be in order to beat a person like him. This is where you have to be spiritually, mentally, Like, you're gonna go out and punish. Yeah.

But your final fight was in 2019, correct?

2018 or 2019. Yeah.

How did that go?

Not good.

Did you know before it happened that this was getting close to the end?

Yeah, I did.

You did?

I did. Um, I just think the way that I work, I, um, I get bored with things, if that makes any sense. Mm-hmm. Like, like with wrestling, I got like— it got to a point where it got boring. Like, I understood it so much that it wasn't teaching me that, that much anymore. Same with fighting. I've done it so much at that moment, it wasn't teaching me anymore. Like I needed to be taught. So I was getting bored with it, with how much I gave and how little it was giving me back. So I remember going to that fight, right as I'm walking into the cage, I ask, uh, as God, I say, I said, God, if this is all that life is right here, I don't want anymore. So you show me what it is, please. I want more than this, than what this is right now. So that's what I said going in. I got hit right away as I came into a shot. I was knocked out on my feet. As I fell down, uh, I fell over my leg, like really, like tore everything in my knee except for my ACL.

So if I were even going to fight after that, like, it'd be no, you know. It wasn't going to happen. So in between, okay, I had this conversation with God at the moment that I want something else out of life more than what I've been used to. Didn't know what I was asking for. So I did do a lucha libre match after that with the whole knee brace on and everything. Like, my knee was pretty jacked up, and I was telling people that I was going to do this lucha match. And I'm like, how am I going to do it with my knee jacked up like this? You know, like, that was a crazy story. Went in, uh, it was like the week of the match. I practiced lucha here and there at a place in San Jose, but I was like, I don't know what the fuck I'm doing, you know, at all. Like nothing. I'm there the week of the show and it's the biggest show of the year in AAA. Um, uh, so all these fans of mine know that I'm gonna do this match and I don't know what I'm doing, number one, at all, right?

But I'm promoting it. I don't know what the fuck I'm gonna wear or anything, right? Nothing. Like, I got nothing. I'm like, fuck, this is gonna be fucking stupid, you know? Like— And then the day before, the night before, fucking, it all comes together. It was like, it was like, again, it was like a very spiritual, just like time, like a moment. It was like nothing's coming together. Nothing is already— nothing's planned, nothing. And then all of a sudden, the night before, it fucking all comes together. Everything. I mean, I get the whole outfit, you know, all that fucking looks good. All right, cool. I know what I'm doing the night before. Like, we piece it all together and like, I do— like, they ask me like, what do you want to do out there? They're thinking, okay, come out and maybe do some MMA stuff. Like, no, no, I want to do some lucha stuff. Like, I'm gonna fucking do some flips and shit, you know? Like, and like, okay, can you do this? I'm like, well, show me how to do it and let me see if I can do it. So everything they did, they showed me how to do, and I learned it right there that night.

Okay, I'll do that. Boom, boom, boom. So we did the whole choreography, all that, right? I thought like, okay, good, we got it all packed. Did that, did the show that night, and it fucking blew up. Like, surprised so many people by doing— Yeah, yeah, dude. I was like, again, I was like, God, like, what the— like, what the Fuck, I don't know what I'm doing. And then it all came together and then the show was great, like better than expected. It felt like after I won like against Brock, people were like looking at me like, what the fuck just happened? I'm like, I don't know. I have no idea. Yeah. Yeah. So it was just crazy. Like, it's almost like you just go out and do it. Like, even if you're not prepared, I don't know. It was weird. You're not prepared.

She's always looking for a challenge. That's kind of what I meant after you beat Lesnar. I mean, you're— you hit the top of wrestling, you got bored. You hit the top, the UFC, so eventually you got bored. How do you find the next thing? I mean, does it just, you know, just come to you?

Yeah, it does.

Pray for it? Do you?

It just comes to you, man. Uh, I, I know that that drive, that energy needs to go somewhere else, and hopefully it's somewhere positive, somewhere that— again, that love needs to go to some— into something else, whatever way that is. That love needs to transfer constantly to other things. So The Lucifer here and there a little bit, and then I'm just open to receiving. I'm open to receiving even if like I don't know what I'm going to be doing next. It somehow finds me. I'm like, "Oh, there's something here. Okay, let me go there. Let me learn about that." So 2020 after. My career going down. Uh, I just got cut from WWE because I need to— I just need development, you know? Like, it's a different— a whole different dance, all this. Like, um, my mom passed away that year.

Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, 2019 was your last fight, and also your mom and your brother passed away. Just a few months apart.

Yeah.

What happened?

So my mom had life like, uh, towards the end of her life was very, uh, immobile. Um, very— what, like, she's very, uh, immobile, so she couldn't move around much, you know. So quality of life had to like— so at the end of her life was sitting, sitting a lot, laying down a lot, you know, kind of bedridden a lot. Uh, Osteoporosis, diabetes. And then I saw, yeah, I just saw like the medical side of it, of how all these things that she was taking to like make her feel better, she had to take all these other things to like counteract the things she was taking. So it was kind of weird. It was kind of weird to like be exposed to that. And from her, from watching her. So she's bedridden a lot. And then, yeah, so one day she just passed. But that to me, for that was more of like a— it was like a weightlifting being— it's like a weight being lifted.

Okay.

It was more like, I'm happy she's gone, you know, she's not struggling anymore. She's not— yeah, she's free, you know? So that was more— that was more of that. It was time. And we talked and everything before all that. And she asked me once, she asked me, she was like, how'd I do? You know, like in life, right? Yeah. How'd I do?

She asked you that?

Yeah. I said, Mom, you're fucking perfect.

That's awesome, man.

Yeah, she was, brother. She fucking was. So like, Mom, you did fucking perfect. You're the best. So yeah, it was good to give her that. Oh, she knew, you know, she knew. It was good to share that with her. Um, yeah, then I, I saw— I just saw her transfer to the other side, like, towards the end of her life. She wasn't here. Her mind was somewhere else. She was in a different place, different realm. You know, she was like a newborn looking out, looking out, not really looking at anything, right? So I knew it was time. Yeah, she left. It was good. It was peaceful. Yeah, then my brother had He got into a long life of just a lot of substance abuse. I think a lot of things just really messed with him in his life. Like school, I think really was hard on him. He has all this anger within him, didn't put into the right places, so he came out wrong places, and he started doing a lot of A lot of drugs like methamphetamines. Oh, man. Yeah, going into alcohol as well, a lot of alcohol. And he got off the methamphetamines and then he needed— well, he got into alcohol like a lot, really hardcore.

And again, that was something that was new to me. I didn't really understand what all that was. So I saw it firsthand through him. Like, uh, he told me about like him having stomach ulcers from time to time, going to the hospital, getting, you know, stitched up, and then getting out, you know. And I didn't realize, like, that's the road people go down, like, when they're that heavily drinking. And I'm talking about, like, dude, a couple bottles, like, just hardcore, just drinking it just to not feel so much, to a point where you can't— you couldn't even get off of it. He said that would kill him. So he was at our house, Michelle and I staying there. We're trying to help him get sober and all that. Wasn't working. So he started getting like, towards the end of his life, jaundice. He had jaundice, liver shut down. Oh man. Yeah, liver shut down. And again, fuck, I didn't, I didn't know, brother. I didn't know what all that meant, more so just saw it in front of me. Yeah. And then one day he had a big stomach ulcer, stomach just ruptured. Got the call from Michelle that He was in the hospital.

Took him— ambulance came, picked him up, took him. He's bleeding everywhere. So went to the hospital and he was just fighting for his life. And it was like a water faucet of blood coming out. Sheesh. Yeah. So yeah, I watched him do that. Yeah. That was hard. That was the fucking hardest thing I've ever gone through. The moment was that— was watching him just helpless fucking go through that. And I was just so like also mad at him too, you know? Like, this is what you wanted right here, right? Couldn't give him like a moment of grace at the moment. I was so into like Like, you know what you were doing as well, right? So I didn't get— I couldn't even give him that moment of his last moments with us. I was so into that. Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah.

So— What would you say to him now if you had the opportunity to say one last thing?

I've already said it. I love him. Thank you for being the best big brother. Yeah, I've had— I've already had healing with that. We've already talked. We know where we stand. And it's not— it's not for the downs that we were in. It's not. The way that I learned from that, from that moment, Was take myself out of the picture, take my emotions out of the picture. No matter what, no matter who's gone through anything at that moment, if they're leaving this earth, you give them their time no matter what. You do that appreciation. You do that. You don't. So he taught me a hard lesson bit right there, and. We had love between us. We did, big time. So I had to just focus on what the great things he's done on this earth, the great things that he showed me, how he took care of me, you know. And my heart was there to help him, but he just couldn't help himself at that moment. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah.

Did you do your first ayahuasca ceremony one year on the 1-year anniversary?

I did. Yeah. So yeah, it's going at the end of my career and also mainly having that death with, with my brother and that and the way that he passed was fucking hard and difficult. So After that, I saw a medium, somebody speaks to the other side. That helped me put him to rest a lot because I had conversations with him of him just saying like, look, I didn't know what I was doing. I'm sorry. Plain and simple. You know, I don't got to relive his death over and over again like that. I don't like I. relive the things we've gone through in life. So that helped me like, okay, like, yes, yes, like, yes, that's like, look at the great things, the positive things, what we taught each other, like the love between us. That's all that matters, that love between us. That's it. So it helped me. Well, that night when he passed away, man, that was the first night I ever left my body.

You left your body?

I did. Seeing that, gone home, and Michelle and I, we were just talking over like what just happened, like everything. We're just like, and like so traumatized over what just happened. And As I was sitting there, like, laying— like, kind of like laying down, I just decided to let go fully. So I let go of everything. Like, I let go of myself for a moment. Like, I don't care anymore. I'm not attached to this anymore at this moment. So that trauma really, like, helped me let go. So I— yeah, I left. Left my body for a moment. I felt like a lifting, like I was leaving, and that made me, made me do that. Um, so we get into, we get into that year. Um, I already started processing of like putting them away, you know, like doing all that, and then, um, A friend of mine, a good friend of mine, tells me about a ceremony that he just did. So ayahuasca Saturday, a 5-MeO-DMT Sunday. And he explains to me everything that happened in the ceremony and his experience. And just off his experience, I said, oh, I don't think I have to do it because you explaining it.

I got it, right? But then he tells me the day that it's on, it's the anniversary of my brother's passing. I said, okay, I'll be there. Um, did no research, no intentions. I just felt like I had to be there for a reason. I didn't know what. I So I show up and don't know anything about ceremonies in general at all. This where I went to was more of like a one day in, do ceremony and get out. So no introduction, no integration, didn't know anything, don't know anything about anything. I don't know, I'm just fucking gonna show up, right? Like, I just feel like I have to be here. So First day's ayahuasca. Start, uh, they give you cups and they give you, you know, as much as you want, like, uh, every hour or so cups if you want to keep, you know, keep going deeper into the, into the experience. So as soon as I felt the medicine, it felt like I know this medicine more than I know myself. I felt like what ayahuasca was, I know that more than I know myself. That was very familiar to me, as if I've been there before, as if I've done this before.

So as soon as I felt the experience. I said, I'm with you on everything you want to do. I'm with you. You show me what you need to show me. And my first experience, I first started looking at my family, each one individually, and saw them. I saw them more than what I've ever seen of them. I understood him more than I ever understood him. Like, the little things, like my daughter, for instance, like I saw her so much, like I finally, like, understood her now than before I didn't. The way that I was trying to be a father was what I thought was supposed to be a father, was we expect these certain things to be a good person. To where now I just, I saw her in her essence of what she was bringing to me. And that was, I saw the love in her. I saw the beauty in her, all of it, even the quirks and all that, like, where you think are shortcomings, like, that's all her own essence of beauty. And I saw that there finally, like, oh no, like— I understand you now more than ever. And I understood family and friends a lot more than ever.

And my job, well, as a parent, is to be there unconditionally with love. That's it. You need something from me, wisdom, whatever, I'm right here whenever you want. But I'm gonna love and support you no matter what. Thank you. With kindness, with acceptance. I'm not going to freak out. You tell me you did something like, no, you did this. Okay, well, how can I help? Okay, I can help this way. I'm here to— I'm here for you to hold space. Like, you need to cry, whatever, man. I'm with you. It's all good. Do whatever you need to do. I'm here. I love you no matter what. So I saw everybody like that. I even saw people that I didn't even like. Like, and I appreciated them for what they were showing me, and that was themselves, to like have me grow into something much more pure in myself. Even if somebody I don't like, even if somebody doesn't see the same things I do, even if they're like shitheads, they're fucking bad people, but they're essential for my growth no matter what. So everybody's essential. So I appreciate everybody for being their own authentic self at the moment.

Right. Mm-hmm. Um, and then, dude, I, I felt like I just had, like, I felt like my heart got unlocked. Maybe not totally, 'cause we're always gonna keep growing, but my heart got so unlocked than what I knew before. My heart, my mind, my soul got unlocked to, Either I— these things that I got were downloads, or it was just stuff that I remembered finally. I believe it. I believe the fullness is already within us. We just got to remember, you know, like all these things are already within us. We just got to remember. That's it. It's already there. You don't got to outsource it. It's right there. It's already in here. So I felt like there's so much that I understood, find like of more more than I understood of God, more than I understood of life. That life is life is perfectly made for me, for you, for for me exactly. every moment to you to grow into what you need to grow into. Mm-hmm. To essentially ascend. Okay? So if it's made for me exactly every moment for me to grow into that, now how do I go through it? Do I go through it with resistance?

No. I go through acceptance, the grace, with love and compassion. Me seeing that, I said, "Well, okay. So I need to make my my life more loving. Like I need to be in a love story with my life every moment. Even if it's just me by myself, I need to have the love story with me. It starts with me. So I felt like I had like a new lease on life where." I understood a lot more. I felt like everybody needed to do something like this and this type of medicine at that time. So I've— again, with no integration, you had Kane this one day and then within a week or two you had Kane this other way. So it was a lot for people to take in, especially my closest family and friends. And that wasn't even the 5-MeO trip. Yeah.

I've done ayahuasca. I've done ibogaine a handful of times, twice. 5-MeO, a handful of times. Psilocybin. I've had good experiences. I've had horrific experiences. How has that changed your interpretations of God, if it has?

From what I was taught and what I could perceive from people teaching it to me at a young age, to me experiencing what I experienced and what I see it now, Um, with my experiences with it, so when I had a 5-MeO trip, I died off of that. Mm-hmm. I had a good ego, uh, ego death, though. Did I know it was ego? Like, I just knew I was dying on it. And the time of death, I was filled with so much love. Like endless amounts of love. Mm-hmm. To where I was ready to go regardless if I came back and didn't even matter. Like that, none of it mattered but being in a state of love. Um, so I, so I fully let go. My consciousness left my body but became everything else. Mm-hmm. After that. So as I left, my consciousness expanded, and I became the trees, I became the earth, I became space, and I became beyond. So I was all of it, yet nothing as well, all at once. And The message that I got there that was fucking ingrained into my, my soul from now on is there's only one here.

All different versions, if you want to say that, but there's only one here. God is the only thing that exists. That's it. God is within me. I'm looking out at myself. That's my viewpoint. That's from my experience. I know people have different viewpoints.

The oneness.

The oneness is the only thing that exists on all different levels, teaching itself to get back to the higher. So Where I'm at now with it, I am here as myself, learning from myself, experiencing myself, always. Now, there's depths to the self. That's a forever ongoing thing. Where I'm at with it right now is that I'm interacting with myself all the time. Myself is guiding myself. There's no you or I, there's only the I Am. That's it. Different versions in this Earth plane to help us on the path of Ascension, getting out of the 3rd dimension. It's a forever learning of yourself. That's all we have— time, space, like just here and now. That's it. So that was, that was ingrained into me at that moment to where I'm looking at myself I'm seeing the sunsets, me. Like, how beautiful is, is I? Like, having compassion for animals now because there is no you or I. There's a oneness. Um, and there's always— there's a forever depth. Of knowing yourself more. There's more. The digger you deep, the more you go out— like, the more you go within, more will be shown to you. So how much do you want?

But you gotta look for it. You gotta dig deep for it. You gotta keep, keep on the journey.

Let's take a quick break.

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Ready to roll into here, son? All right. Where do we start?

So, um, when I was coming back from my 5-MeO-DMT trip, um, I spoke to God again and I said, I work for you now. Everything I do for you, everything I do, I do for you. So you just continue to show me, put the path out in front of me, and do it. So my life changed big time, not just internally but externally. Um, My wife at the time, Michelle, we're just on a different journey of self-discovery. Not that you couldn't coexist, you can, and we have. We've been able to do that. But I feel like I had to go out and learn. Learn what I wanted to learn, which was learning of the divine through plant medicine, but also learning from being by myself, solitude, nature. I got into everything. I got into all different religions. I got into the occult as well.

What cult?

Huh?

What cult?

The occult.

The occult.

Yeah. So like, like Hermetic teachings of Thoth the Atlantean. All— everything just really spoke well to me. All of it did. Um, so religions— I started learning more about different religions as well, not just Christianity. Um, so I saw spiritual work as mixed martial arts, and that's how I see it now, is that I can learn from everybody. Um, every form or way of doing certain things, I can take it into myself and take the The parts that I think are very beneficial. The parts that I don't think are beneficial, I leave them. And I know that there's spiritual teachers everywhere, like on the face of the planet, real people that are black belts. But not all black belts are the same. So knowing that the power's within you, it's not somebody externally They can teach you some things. Yes, they can. They don't have all the answers. No one— not all one person does. So I realized, just like in MMA and jiu-jitsu, somebody could be a black belt, but there's levels to it as well. And they may be good at certain, certain things, but they're not good at other things. They may be good at teaching.

They may not be good at certain techniques, their body type. So I really saw it that way. Have discernment, have boundaries set up with myself, with other people, more so than what I did before, on extracting what makes sense to me and putting that into the way that I want to put it into and how I want it to form in within me and out, and whether it's truth or whether it's not. If it's love, if it's wisdom, compassion, then all that's truth. It is. If it's anything outside of that, then I don't take that with with me, and I don't tell people that's the wrong way of doing things. No, like let them do them. Let people do them. Let I read the teachings. What I get out of it, what I can make it make sense for me and have it speak to me, then I try to dive deeper with it. I try to go deeper with it, deeper understanding. And how can I do that? Well, just my train of thought by dissecting things, trying to make sense for me and trying to teach me. So essentially, I'm open to all, even the darkness.

But the darkness is more of— I know that is not truth.

Then why are you open to it?

I'm open to it. I'm open to it, but I don't let it come in me. I have discernment over that. I have discernment over all darkness, okay? What I am is a child of the divine, child of light, child of truth, child of love. So, but I can go into some dark places as well if you push me there, okay? So I know that's within me as well. I choose to be this way, but if I have to, I'll go there. And I'll go just as dark as you or even darker. Okay? So don't fuck with me. Like, you do not cross certain lines. You don't do that. So those are the boundaries that I have up. Why do I open up to it? But I don't let it in. I need to learn what your objective is. I need to learn what your train of thought is. I need to know what you're trying to do here on this earth. That's the poison, my brothers and sisters. No, fuck that. We're not doing that. Okay, so I choose to walk a certain path, a divine path of truth. I'm not perfect, but I choose to walk down this path, and I walk down it with dignity.

With respect, with grace in all things. And I may mess up here and there. I will. And it's given. I'm still learning. I'm always learning. But I want to take those mistakes and I want to transmute them into something positive because I have that choice as well to do that. So I learn from everybody. If it doesn't line up to me, I don't take it in. If it's hurting other people, if I can put a stop to it, I will in some way or another. So that's how I see it.

That's interesting.

It's learning your, your enemy. You know, it's learning your enemy's objective. If I don't know what I'm fighting against, how can I fight against them? How can I prepare myself?

How do you learn it?

Just by whether it's things like reading. Yeah, I take, I take things out. that speak to me, that are truth. And things that aren't lined up with me, I don't take them. I say, okay, well, this is what you're about. And the only way I can know somebody is really by sitting down with them, conversating with them. So I can't judge you. I can't judge you what you look at or who— or what you think you, you're associated with. I can't. I can't, because I don't— we haven't had time to spend time with each other and conversate and hang out with each other to know what you're about. Mm-hmm. So I can't judge you off of one thing you said. I can't judge you off of what things that you're practicing, because you may carry yourself differently. So I'm open to a lot of things, but I don't let everything in within me. I don't, and I realized from my journeys that the darkness, the it's not truth; it's not real. It's an illusion. There's only one truth. That's love. That's it. Everything else is fake. Yeah, someone may kill me. But I go home.

This is not my home. I'm learning here. That's it. I have a short amount of time here. That's it. We all do.

What do you think happens when you die?

You go back home.

What is home?

God. You're back to the one where we all come from. We all come back from source. We all go back to source. But the one truth, the love, the, the wisdom, the eternalness of it all, like, our human words can't even explain that. And I'm, you know, like, I can't put— I can't paint you a picture of what that is because there's so much to that that I cannot describe it. And we've tried to describe that. People fight wars over it, what that is. But it's something that's indescribable to you, man. Like, it's—

Do you think you've experienced that through your 5-MeO trip?

I've experienced levels of it of what only I could comprehend at the time. Yes. For what this physical body can take in, I've experienced as much as this physical body and my mental capacity and my heart and soul can take in at that moment. That's all that I experienced. There's an infinite amount more, infinite amount more of love, of wisdom that I can't even grasp. I know that. So my job is to dig deeper, is to go within more, is to try to understand more, be open to the understanding.

Do you believe in a heaven and hell?

I do. Um, well, the way that I see it is those that put themselves there mentally, on a soul level, They'll be there. I believe they're— we all manifest what we want to manifest.

Wouldn't that mean that the darkness is real?

But nothing's real to love, to the highest form of God. That's an illusion. Because though we may practice that here on this Earth, As you go on the higher planes, that gets erased because that's a low level of being. Mm-hmm. And if we have an infinite amount of time— well, this is how I— if we have an infinite amount of time to know of yourself, you wouldn't be in that place because it's a low level of being. Okay? And we're all going to the same place. Well, you do. It takes work, but you're going to be playing with that for so long until you get bored with it and understand that that's not real. It's fake. It's not real.

So you think we all go to the same place?

You have to. I think you get bored of it so much That you'll have to. Hmm. Or you just choose to stay there. But with the infinite amount of time of growth, I don't understand how some people could stay there, but I believe it's possible to stay there, stay at a low level, and you do not rise up. Like with things growing, like plants growing, some die, some grow, some bloom. You know, seeds get dropped. They don't even— they don't even have a chance to form. I think all that happens. It does. So it's an internal growth, continuously looking from within, not outward, from within. And you'll get those things that you need to constantly move up. So it is— it is work. It is a choice. But like, after, after infinite amount of time, wouldn't you fucking get tired of that? My thought, wouldn't you get tired of that? I believe, I believe in other past lives. Maybe I've been in that space before and I got tired of it, realized that's not where it is.

You think reincarnation is how— you believe in reincarnation?

I do. I bet I do. I do. It's helped me so much to be okay with being myself and know that I don't have to rush to anything, to know that I'm on my path.

Mm-hmm.

And there's no push anywhere. There's no push like The growth will come when I'm ready. The continuous growth will come when I'm ready. And us being eternal beings, all we have is growth. All we have is a deep knowing of ourselves. And that growth is infinite. So—

If you believe in— let me ask this. If you— I'm just curious. I'm not pushing. I believe you said you had a conversation with your brother in one of your journeys. Did you?

Not a conversation. More of an understanding, a knowing, a sense of peace.

Okay.

Yeah.

How could that happen if you believe in reincarnation?

That he's in a place of— so I don't believe necessarily that we reincarnate right away.

Okay.

Like you die and all of a sudden you're— I read stories. Look into a lot of, um, past life regression as well. So Dolores Cannon, uh, has some good books on past life regression that really helped me understand life lessons because she goes into— well, somebody goes to her and says, I have this anxiety of this, I don't know why, and I've never been through something like this. Okay, so puts them through hypnosis, goes through a past life regression, and they talk about a past life that they've gone through this scenario where they gave up control to somebody else. Maybe like they're on a ship or something like that, and then they gave their control up to a captain that shouldn't have been a captain. Okay, so that person knew We shouldn't be following this dude, but did it anyways. Okay, now what happens months later? They're lost at sea, no food, nothing. Everybody's dying, right? What happens in the story is a person dies, releases from their body, and she asked the collective consciousness, which is the divine consciousness within them, Like, well, what did you want them to see in this life? Okay, well, we wanted them to see that they're in control of their life, and if they don't feel like— if they have any kind of— if they shouldn't follow somebody for some reason, then they shouldn't.

You have discernment. You have power within your own self. To not do those things, because anything can happen. So it was more of like giving the power back to the person. So if we're on an infinite moment of growth, constantly raising our vibration to a higher level and essentially leaving this third dimension, then we have to learn our lessons as some of those masters that have before us. That have taught us the way. It's to not hold on to things. It's to trust in your own power. It's to grow from within. It's that growth from within of love, of higher understanding, in order to constantly raise yourself in that. So what they talk about also in that book is One instance, being reincarnated to do a certain job here on Earth, working with plants, working with agriculture, will take you in a place of schooling to learn of these things before you reincarnate. And now this is what you're doing here, is learning and teaching people how to grow certain things. Hmm. And you don't know how you grew it, right? Because the memories wiped out. It's a beautifulness of self-discovery over and over again.

And tell you what, this isn't the last plane. We constantly move up and up until we do finally go back to source. And that's just, that's what I believe.

So you think you reincarnate over and over until you go to the source? Which is a final resting place?

Which is back home with the All-Knowing, united as one, finally again truly united as one, All-Knowing, All-Being, everything. Yes. So I think this earth plane is a school. There's a certain school. It's, uh, but other, other masters have—

To develop.

To develop, to, to ascend, to, to, to grow higher than this. No longer— our bodies are, are like— no longer do we live here anymore. Our level of consciousness has grown up so, so much that we no longer have to come back to this. Anymore to this 3rd dimension, 3D Earth.

Interesting. Let's move to your son.

So yeah, I went through these ceremonies. filled with so much understanding, so much love, right? I had this conversation with God that I worked for— I work for God now. Um, everything's gonna be all good. And challenges came up where Michelle and I were at different interests, you know. Growing differently, right? So that was happening. It was me. It was me pushing her away. It was me. It was me thinking I had to do something else, or knowing that I had to do something else, and that I couldn't. I couldn't be near in a relationship where I wasn't giving my all. I wasn't fully committed. Just that I had to go grow, and I maybe just needed myself to do that. So yeah, one night, my— put my son to bed, and he tells me things that are happening to him at his daycare. So I ask questions about what happened, tells me. Ask him how long this has been going on. He says, for a while. Right? So we do what we're supposed to do. Make a report, call the authorities. We do that.

What did they say?

You know, they just get— they just get everybody's documented down. On what, you know, they're going through the process. And I understand, like, there's a heavenly realm and there's an earthly realm of laws that we gotta abide by here on Earth, okay? God's laws are a little different, but you got to do— so you got to act accordingly. So we do things that are right, correct, we do, we make the report, all that. We hear that the daycare, the son was a 40-year-old man, Harry Goulart, was there. And that's who my son told me that, you know, did all this stuff. And I asked him, any other kids? And he's like, yeah. My son? Yeah. Other kids? Yeah. Okay. So put the report in, they, they book him. Um, he gets out on Friday on that, on that same week. He gets out on Friday with no ankle monitor, nothing, because it's the Friday end of the day and the weekend they're not open. So he's out on 2 days. Sheesh. With no ankle monitor on, not back at the daycare. The daycare's at a house. And okay, so that happens. And then just seeing my son and seeing all the traumas now come out.

Right, because he's disclosed it. So seeing the hurt in him, breaking down crying.

You could see it?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He let it out, you know, cry and all this. How

long had it been going on?

He'd been going there since he was maybe around 3 years old, and he told us at 4. So I'm guessing pretty, pretty quickly, as soon as he was there. And the daycare, the mom and the stepdad, all that, that ran it, I knew they were all— they were all into it. They're— they let it all happen, you know. So I was like, okay, they're all guilty too. Like, he would go in during their daycare, you know. hang out with the kid and then take him to the bathroom and fucking crying and all that. And they fucking let it all happen. So we'll have more information later on that the dad, like, family's been doing it forever. Okay, now the community, either some didn't know, right? Or some did know and are okay with it. So I had her like, okay, there's people in our community that are okay with this. Okay. And the person that told us to go there, like, we asked around. It's a farm across the street from where we lived, and the owner was like, yeah, go there, I went there, whatever. Like, whether he knew or not, I don't know.

Okay, but now I knew from all this that there's certain families that are okay with this.

Holy shit.

Okay, so I've never been introduced to this at all. Like, My mom was very open with me talking, and she worked with Child Protective Services, and she'd be open about all this stuff, talk to me about it, talk to me what's right, what's wrong, you know. And I never dealt with that, and families that I— family members that I knew never dealt with it. So this was all very, just very new to me, um, other than my mom like prepping me for this. Like, type of thing. So kind of got opened up, like, okay, there's people that know, there's people that don't know. There's people that had told us later on, like, their kids opened up and their parents didn't do anything. They didn't even report it, right? Took them out of there. So I saw this as a bigger problem than what it was just in the community. I didn't know what it— what all of this was in the world. More recent, more recent things have been coming out where it's like, okay, this shit's like in our— it's in our everyday, it's in our lives. Um, so me just being exposed to all that, um, so Seeing my kids break down, seeing Michelle break down, that was like— Heard my brother, that was one of the hardest things, if not the hardest thing, to watch them go through their, their hurt in the moment.

Watching it and not being able to do anything but let them go through it. So it was a Monday. We just took my son to, uh, to the zoo to kind of get him out of things, you know, get him out of the structure of things and just—

New headspace.

Yeah. Um, and okay, we believed the daycare would be shut down. We knew. But then, like, the owner of the daycare, Patty Dullard, the mom, put out a mass email and kept us on it, didn't take us off, saying that, oh no, those allegations are false. Like, that kid wasn't even here that day, blah, blah, blah. And saying that they're going to be open on Monday. Right. Which they did. Technically can't, but that like fucking just blew my mind. Like, we did all this and it's still not gonna get stopped. What the fuck? You know, like, the system fucking sucks. It's broken. People don't know what the fuck they're doing. So all these things are running through my mind. Get home from the zoo and I'm like, man, I just gotta take a drive. Like, I did have my gun on me at the time, and I had all these thoughts like, I wish, you know, like I would see them. Like, what are the odds of that? Like, I'm driving out in public. I've never seen them out in public ever, right? Well, that day I saw them. I saw them. Had a conversation with God again, and I said, well, it was like God told me, like, look, well, they're in front of you now.

Now what? Right? Mhm. Okay. Well, I said, God, you know what I'm doing, so you make this however you want. You make this outcome however you want to make it, but you know what I'm doing. Uh, followed them, and they went right to pick up Harry, go take him and go to his ankle monitor, and I lost it. Whatever you would say having it is, I lost it. I fucking lost a will to live. Didn't care about dying, didn't care, didn't care about anything. I was in a different place at that moment. Um, I wasn't maneuvering in the parameters of what we call normal life. I was in something else. Um, so I did what I did.

What age did you start talking to your kid about this stuff?

Pretty young. Like, pretty young. Like, take him to the bathroom, you know, and like We wouldn't touch them or anything, you know, like have them touch their privates and like aim and do all that, you know. And like, and like we wipe them or anything else like that, we tell them like, look, like your dad and I are the only ones that do this, okay? No one else does this, right? And you're in control of your own body. So if you don't like something what somebody's doing, even if it's us, you fucking— you just tell us. Okay, like this is appropriate and this is not. Anything that you don't like, you just say it because you're in charge. So we just— Michelle was really good about that. She did that from a young age, like telling our kids like what's appropriate, what's not appropriate touch, things that you don't like, say it. So So yeah, from a pretty young age, like potty training, doing that. And it's like now I look at the signs, like my son started like digressing his potty and his potty training because that's something that would happen, you know. So he wouldn't even— so he just wet himself versus like, you know, he was progressing and all that, and all of a sudden he wasn't.

I was like, like, what's going on? Like I don't understand. Right. So he was avoiding going to the bathroom. Yeah. So yeah, I did what I did, uh, went through an 11-mile chase shooting at them. Um, all of them were guilty, so all of them could have got it. Look at the photos now. Um, From the crime scene there, their truck was shot up, and it was like that. I only hit the stepfather who was in on it, hit him in the arm. It was like— it wasn't like— could have been much worse, right? But it wasn't. and look at the crime scene, I was like, wow, like all of them could have— that's what I was going for. So 11-mile chase, you know, like 2 gun clips. Um, there was like a stop there, uh, with police. during traffic, so innocent people could've got hit. I was trying not to, but I wasn't here. I wasn't. So I understand, like, it could hurt a lot of people that weren't even involved. So went into jail that night. Wow.

How long were you in jail?

So, so went to jail. I was there 9 months before I got, uh, before I got on parole or Yeah. So 9 months solitary confinement, but I knew it was part of my path for whatever reason, right? I knew who was in charge, ultimately in charge. I knew that it was for my betterment, so I didn't let it— I didn't let it fucking break me down. I didn't go crazy in there. Like, I knew I was protected. I knew I was being guided in it all. I knew that this is for something bigger. Do I know what? I don't know. But even just that little moment, just what's happened in that first day, like— People found out why and everything else. Like, it brought a lot of people together. It made them more open to speak about these certain things, you know. They speak about life experiences of, of these things that happened to them. Um, so I actually knew that the solitude was a blessing. It was. Like, okay, you've been at the top, you've been at the bottom. Like you've done all these things in this life. Whenever do we get the chance to have true solitude unless you're like a monk, right?

Be, to be comfortable, truly comfortable with yourself regardless of what the exterior looks like. Mm-hmm. I got nothing. I got these 4 walls, this little room. I'm in this little room for 21 hours of the day. 3 hours to get out, shower, get a little TV time. Other than that, I'm my best friend. And I have to be. I have to be. As soon as I got in there, got a little claustrophobic, you know, started like feeling like a mouse in a cage. And told myself, no, you're not doing this. Nope. You're going to get comfortable right here, right now. These 4 walls, are keeping you enclosed. But no, like, what you just gone through, what you just learned, all these things you just learned, you put it into practice right now. And I just— my outlook on life became so much more, more magical. Like, whatever you

think about in there,

it was like Like, I stayed happy within myself, and the guards were like, how can you be happy right now?

They would ask you that?

Yeah, yeah. How can you be happy right now? And I'm like—

Ask them how they can be happy by putting somebody that tried to get justice for a 4-year-old being molested in solitary confinement for 9 months, 21 hours a day.

They're doing their job, brother. It's a life— it's a life law, right? It's an Earth law, okay? Laws of the United States, laws of California, whatever. They're doing their job. That's it. I don't— I can't judge you, or I can't, okay? You're doing what you're supposed to be doing. Cool. I thought of it as, look, you're breathing and you're conscious. Okay. That's all you need. That's it. I don't care if I'm getting tortured, okay, at the end of my life. I'm gonna appreciate that I get to feel. That's where I had to put myself to be happy. If I'm being fucking tortured at the end of my life, I'm gonna be happy that I get to feel, 'cause after that, I won't feel anymore. I won't feel that anymore. I'm gonna be in a higher state. So I get to— I love that I get to feel that pain. So that's what made me be happy in that. Be happy with myself. Be happy with yourself. That's it. You don't need anything else to validate it. You don't need anyone else but you. You create it all. You create your happiness. So I did that.

I did that. I was happy, man. I was happy just I'm still experiencing life. I don't know what's going to lead. I don't know. But I'm happy that I get to experience it. And I just started celebrating little wins about the day, whether it's a meal. Like, oh, I like this meal. Yeah. You know? Mm-hmm. It's fucking jail food, which sucks, but it's like, this is a blessing. Sometimes they'd give me like an extra meal. Oh, wow. Yes. You know, like I'd make a bigger thing than what it was. And one, one thing, like I started getting other downloads. Like I started, uh, as I'd wake up and my eyes were still closed, I started getting these like geometric shapes and patterns, like as if I was on something, but I'm not. I'm just by myself. Meditation, and it's like, wow! Like you're still with me. You're with me. You never left me, ever. It's just me not being able to see you. But I see you, and I feel you always. And then I was looking outside the window, and I love looking at hawks, red-tailed hawks. I love just like even now, like search for them as I'm driving.

I'm like, oh wow! Like I love the way they fly, their shape, and everything. And looking through the window, I saw hawks like far away. I'm like, like, that'd be awesome to see one close up. And I like, I would love that. Then a minute later, through the window, big old fucking hawk flies up like this, like fucking all open, dude. Like— Wow. Like, come on. That right started picking little positivities out. I made them bigger than what they were. It's a state of mind, you know. We're so like, we're so like, what's the next thing? What's the biggest thing? What, like living in those highs and lows, like Being in that room for that long a time, when I got to get out and have freedom of like leaving my room whenever I wanted to and go to the fridge, like that's a blessing. That's a blessing that we shouldn't look over. So yeah, I just saw the little things that we take for granted, man, and saw how beautiful freedom is to be in your car and just go wherever you want. Go wherever you want, go see whatever you want, explore whatever you want, and just appreciate it all for what it is.

Make it bigger than what it is. So we did 9 months there. Got on parole, uh, with ankle monitor for about a year and a half, 2 years. Um, I split up from Michelle. Um, friend of mine has a place in Gilroy, uh, pretty big property, like 300 acres. So got an RV. Stayed there, and I put it in my parole that I'm working on the property. So my job, one of my jobs, I'm working on the property, cut down trees, whatever it may be. So I had a free range of 300 acres in nature. So every day for about a year and a half, other than picking up my kids from school, And like having— I was able to have a little bit of time at home before I had to leave and go back to my— to where I was living. I go in nature every day. So continue the solitude, continued being okay with myself, being in nature alone, being everything taken away, right? Physical things taken away, but Like, this is the only thing that matters. This, this only thing that matters. Everything can be taken away. It's okay. It's okay as long as how you feel about it, you know, you can make it the best thing.

You can still be in heaven on earth. So it was a lot of internal work. Yeah.

How was it seeing your son after you got out of there for 9 months?

That was crazy. That was crazy to like, at a young age, like you don't, you don't see him for a couple days and you see how they changed. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I saw him first time, just saw how he changed and just, yeah, just what I missed, you know, like what I missed, but back home with them, being in their life and all that. Yeah, that was Yeah. It's the best, best thing. Yeah. Things I can't get back, but all I can focus on is the here and now, you know, and try to help them with their longing of missing me as well. You know, those, like, I understand, like, the time that he needed me the most was right after that. And I wasn't there for him for that. I wasn't. So yeah.

And then you went to state prison.

Yeah. Instead of— instead of trying to fight the trial, you know, the judge we had was pretty good. Like, I felt like he was solid. You know, like I already done some time for what I did, for the circumstances. Instead of going to trial, I just gave it up to the judge to make a decision instead of doing the whole shit. You know, like I met up to my mistakes, understood what I did was wrong. Like I got to hurt a lot of people. You know all that. Like okay. So he gave me a total of 5 years, which everything else I've done added up for me to do one more year in state prison. So I went to state prison. Yeah, I went to a good place, a place where California, normally with prisons, it's controlled by gangs, but there's some prisons that are not. The prisons where people that are trying to get out really get out. So do their internal work, do their schooling. They go to— there's a couple prisons in the US, in the state, that do that. Well, I went to Soledad and that was one of them. But I was told, okay, you know what you're going into, right?

And I said, what? Well, people that you shot at are the same type of people that are going to be there and you can't do anything. If you do, you get more charges on your, on your record.

Holy shit. Right?

So going into a place like that, you're mingled with everybody. Past gang members, past killers, sex offenders, child rapists, all that, right? But we're on a road now to better ourselves, to understand why we are the way that we are. There's all— there's a bunch of classes built for everyone, everything, and okay. I said, okay, well, I'm just looking to get out. That's it. I don't give a fuck. Like, I did what I did. Like, that's where I stand. But I had to put in my mind that, look, all right, when I go to this, this place, I can't judge them because they've already gone through their process. I can't. My job is to get home now. So When I got there to Soledad, um, there's 2 ways of doing this. One, keep my head down, just do my thing, don't talk to anybody, get out. Or I can try to help. I can try to share myself. I can look past what people have done in the past and know that they're on the road to get back to where they need to get back to. Hopefully they're learning their lesson, but if they haven't, hopefully they get reported again, you know.

Um, so I went in, started making friends with people, interacting, you know, sharing of myself. And then I started doing, uh, the breathing there. Um, I started, um, ascension breath there. Yeah. I learned Ascension Breath from putting these different breathing practices together. Um, because after my plant medicine ceremonies, people that I talked to about doing these certain medicines, they didn't want to do them. So I had to learn, okay, now everybody wants to go down this road of learning in this way, and that's okay, but what's like— what's a good way in the middle? something that isn't plant medicine-based. So I started putting these different practices of breathing together to get people in the same state as if they were doing plant medicine on their own breath. Mm-hmm. So I put that together, started a program there at the prison, and very successful. And now I'm in talks with San Quentin Prison to do the same breathing there. And not just for the inmates, but also for the staff as well. So the staff is open to doing this. So I just look to share, you know, whatever you get, whatever anybody gets from it, if it helps them, good.

Like, I'm here to help. I'm here to share of myself.

Wow, man. You're going back to the same prison, huh?

Yeah. Did it help out? Yeah. Uh, it's already going on. They've continued since my absence. It's still going on.

Um,

so

this is ascension breathing?

Yeah, ascension breath. Yeah, ascension breath. Um, so every— so they do it 3 times a week, and every month they do like a day of healing that we started. We started a day of healing there, like where it's a whole day of yoga, breathing, um, we do sound healing as well, come in. So we'll do a whole day of it. We do Reiki, uh, like they do a whole day of it. Um, Just help somebody out, you know, help release their traumas, get better understanding, help them get in tune to themselves a lot more. The breathing— with the breathing, it gives you what you need every time, not what you want. It gives you what you need. So you may have to relive certain things that aren't so pleasant, but with reliving them in that state of mind, you can put it to rest. Put it to rest. Understand it wasn't your fault. It's okay. It's a learned thing that you learned from somebody else that put it onto you. And now the choice is, okay, do I want to carry that with me and keep continuing, or do I not? So, been able to do this with some police departments.

Just went to the UFC PI, did a session there with some of the fighters. Um, and just let the breathing speak for itself. People see that it's beneficial in some way, then it'll keep growing. But I'm just helping out any way that I can. Um, so breathing, uh, working with plant medicine also. Um, I don't know which way. I know, I know what I get out of it. I don't know if it's being a facilitator, doing shaman work. I don't know, but I know what it does for me, and I know that all it does is teach me. I got to do the work here. So it's not that— it's not for me to go back to it always, constantly. Do medicine. That's not it. It's live, live a little bit. Live. Incorporate into your everyday life. Incorporate the love. Incorporate that essence. Incorporate being true to yourself. Incorporate those boundaries that you learned more. Keep those boundaries up. See darkness. You know, if you can do something about it in that moment, do it. If you can speak out, speak. speak out. So sharing with the collective in the best way that I know how, showing of myself and trying to show more of who I am within, being authentic.

Some, uh, wow. How's your son doing today?

Amazing. Amazing. Um, he has amazing people around him. Um, I see him as the hero in the story, him speaking up. So, you know, the time that it happened and that it was happening to the time that he spoke up and him putting a stop to that situation and making a big impact on the world in that way. From the things that I did as well, but like I see great things in him, and it's like he's done something already so great.

How many kids do you think he saved as a 4-year-old?

It all depends on how long it would have kept— how long the—

A lot of kids.

Yeah. From how long they've been established as a daycare to how long they would have been, you put a stop to it. They're not— I mean, they don't have a daycare anymore. But again, there's people that are into that thing, so it still happens, right? It's still in the community. Still is. But I'm happy that he, yeah, that he had the strength to say something and that we took the right precautions, you know, calling the authorities and all that. Because I've heard so many stories afterwards of people opening up to me about that happening to them as a kid, telling their parents, and their parents just taking them out of the situation but not doing anything about it. like calling the authorities or anything else like that. So them living through this life of resentment of their parents that they didn't put a stop to it, you know, or even, even to somewhere like they told their parents and they didn't even do anything about it.

That's crazy to me.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I didn't know all this before, but now I have more information that I've— from life experience through it to realize like how important it is to, to protect your children. And I'm not saying just by doing something. No, no. I'm saying by doing what's right in like the eyes of the law. Doing that does so much, just doing that, reporting it, speaking about it. That's the only way it's going to stop and people are going to get held accountable for their actions is that. Not by hiding it away, not by being embarrassed. That keeps everybody safe. It keeps everybody doing it. It keeps everybody safe that shouldn't be safe, that should be held accountable. So we have to talk about these things. It has to be open. We have to learn and teach from each other and do the right things. Because like, that'd be the worst, man. Like, I thought of that too. Like, damn, if I— if my son later on in life would tell me like, you didn't do anything, like, that would have killed me, you know? Yeah. Like, if he just told me that, man, that would have fucking killed— you know, like, dude, I'm, I'm your dad, dude.

Like, I love you more than anything. I love my kids more than anything. So to have them say that to me, that would have fucking— like, how much trust is gone from a parent to a, to a child? You know, like, I love you, I say all these things, I love you and I'm here for you, but I won't do this for you. You know, I won't do anything for you when you really need me. So like, how deep is our love for reals? So I— and that's just the way I work. I have to dissect all of it and put it in its place. The good, the bad. Like, I can't even say I wish he's never gone there, because if he didn't, then my son didn't go to where he went, this would continuously go on, right? There had to be somebody to stop it. So I can't even— I can never say to myself, I wish he's never gone. I can't say that, right? So I had to, like, accept— How can I accept it? Well, he went. Yeah, yes, he got hurt, really hurt, emotionally hurt forever. Put a stop to it.

Yes, he did. And he has a foundation around him that's going to help him. You know, even like my daughter went through it with like seeing it all, you know. So she went through all of that, like. So I really have to dissect all of it in order to not keep this anger, resentment towards these people, because I don't need that for me. If I'm holding on to all these things that I shouldn't be holding on to, well, how am I going to get more understanding if I'm holding on to these things? I need to let those things go that are— that don't suit me anymore. They didn't do nothing for me. They do nothing but keep me in a place of, of darkness, of doubt, of, of hurt. Let that go because I don't want that. But I understand it. Let it go, and I learn from it. I move on. They're gonna get what they need to get, just like we are. Whether they get it in this life Law, they're gonna get it from a higher place. God will teach them. Like, so it's all good. It's okay. We're just teaching each other.

So I really have to do that to, like, let go of things. Really go into it, dive into it, dive into the hurt, let it flow through me. Uh, so I'm not holding on.

You're a great dad.

Thank you, brother. Thank you.

My pleasure, man. Thank you. Seriously, it's an honor, man.

Likewise, brother. Likewise.

Cheers.

Yeah, brother. Thank you, brother.

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