Transcript of S2E5: Trojan's Horse (with Michael Chernus)

Hey, Adam. Yeah. Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately?

I don't know. I think it's...

Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

Oh, my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian.

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That would equal out, if we're playing with, let's just say 100%, 5. 2 of those percentage points, that's the improvement.

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Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

Why not keep your team unsevered? In Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian. Com/confluence. That's atlassian. Com/confluencie. Com/confluencie. Hey, Adam.

Yeah.

Apparently, a lot of people have been calling the hotline after watching episode 4 and had some pretty strong opinions about it. What? Yeah, and they left some messages. Oh.

Can we listen to them? Yeah.

If you haven't watched episode four, you probably shouldn't listen to these voicemails. But for those of you who have, let's listen to a couple of them.

Get them stiller on the phone.

We've got questions.

Hi, I just watched the episode of the show, Severance, called Lois Hollow.

How the fuck could you end episode four like that?

Oh, my God.

Just watched the episode. Got some questions for you. First of all, what the fuck? Hi, Ben and Adam. This is Sydney H, and I'm just calling to ask Who gave you the audacity?

Second of all, what the fuck?

I was pretty sure that Helena was actually Heli.

So yeah, I figured that out.

I knew it. I knew it.

But I can't figure the next episode.

Tell me. I need to know what is happening. How could you... I'm also way more mad than this, but I'm in an Airbnb right now, and we're in quiet hours. And thirdly, and probably most importantly, what the fuck? Great stuff. Love the show.

I hope Adam's having a good day.

That's great.

That's great. Well, I love the energy and the... Yes, the what the fuck-ness of everybody of these reactions. Yeah.

It's amazing to hear people reacting rather than reading reactions.

Yeah. And obviously, it's a lot of stuff that happens in the episode that's probably, it seems unexpected coming off of episode three. In terms of the Heli Helena reveal, which a lot of people had very strong feelings about and different opinions. And knowing that that was coming, it's great to see how invested people are in these characters the way we are. Totally. Have we been living with them for a long time. So, yeah, what the fuck? What the fuck? Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

Today, we're diving into the fifth episode of Season 2, which is titled Trojan's Horse. It was written by Megan Richie and directed by Sam Donovan.

And we have a really fun episode for everybody because we have the honor and privilege of talking to the most inspiring writer in all of Keir, Rick and Hale himself, the man who plays Michael Churnis.

It's going to be great. So exciting. Michael is the very, very best. And after we talk to Michael, Ben and I will break down some of our other favorite scenes from the episode. And of course, we're going to talk to Zack Cherry. We'll check in with him to see what he thinks will happen in next week's episode.

It's a good episode. Okay, you should know the drill by this point, but in case you don't, here's the spoiler warning. We'll be talking in-depth about episode 5 of season 2 of Severance. If you haven't watched that yet, please go do that before you listen. It's going to be spoilers all over the place.

I mean, like I said before, we are going to dive into this episode. We're going to go deep.

It's been so much fun to see how the people who the show are paying such close attention to it. I mean, I know we've talked about this before, but it's crazy to me the level of scrutiny that people are looking at scenes with and freezing the frame and looking at detail. And I just want to say I appreciate so much how much thought people put into the show. It's like there's no better feeling when you're working on something to see that people are really just digging in. It's so cool.

And that shot in episode 2, the of everyone going into the elevator, timed with episode 1, that really worked, and people found it, and I know how excited you and Sam were about that.

Yeah, it was literally maybe an hour after the episode came out, somebody had put together a cut. Oh, is that right? With both scenes. Yeah. We had planned that out, and Sam and I worked together, and Jeff, our Richmond, our editor, we made sure that we edited it so that the timing worked. I'm just so relieved that it actually came out the way we wanted.

I remember Sam had the any version on set while we were shooting the Audi version.

Yeah, we were there, and we each were coordinating. And the episode is a beautiful-looking episode, and I have to also shout out Susie Lavelle, who's our cinematographer on episode 2. Just beautiful composition, beautiful lighting. It's the first all-Audi episode. It was definitely unchart It's good territory for us, right?

Yeah, just that scene in particular, see them at their lockers and stuff. That was really fun. But also, yes, getting to really dive into their outies is so fun. It's just fascinating getting to know them better. And speaking of people in the outside world, today we have with us our very own Michael Churnis, who plays Rickin.

Michael, first of all, thanks for standing by while we did all that just now on the Zoom as a silent audience. What did you think of our intro and stuff?

Oh, my God. I thought it was really good. You guys sound very professional.

Oh, my God. Thank you so much. What a relief.

Because I kept on checking your reaction as we were talking about stuff, and I felt like you were either moderately amused or just tolerating.

Me, too. I thought he was super mad at us.

Well, I am, but that's about other stuff, not about the intro. All right. No, I thought that sounded great. Congrats on this podcast. It's been so fun to follow along and listen at home. Oh, thanks, man.

I feel like Ricken should have his own podcast podcast about the show. What do you think?

I think he thinks he should have his own podcast for sure. I don't know that he should. Don't give that man a microphone.

If there are podcasts in the Severance world, I'll bet you anything, Ricken has one.

I think he had one, but now he's post-podcast.

That's right.

He's transcended. He's too analog. Yeah, he's transcended podcast. That's right.

Ricken is such an important element in terms of, obviously, the humor of the show, but he's more than that, too. I don't know, tonally, to me, he defines what the Audi world is in a way, this very bespoke world that Dan created in terms of just... I'm thinking about the first episode of Season 1, The Non-Dinner-Dinner Party.

That's so nice to hear. I mean, first of all, it's an honor to be a part of this show. I mean, and that's not any hyperbolic praise. I think this show is incredible and I'm a fan of it, first and foremost. When you're speaking about Ricken being this window into the Audi world, I think what's so cool is I think he's a representation of one subsect of the population. He is our way into this maybe more erudite group of people. But I'm interested to see in other seasons how even more of that world gets fleshed out because I think Ricken and his Litterati friends are just one section of our universe. And I'm interested to see who the anti-Ricken is in this world.

Yeah, and Ricken is such a unique character in the outside world because in the Audi world, it tends to get smaller and more almost naturalistic. And it's just a slightly different, almost tone, but it does feel like a separate world from the any world, certainly. And Ricken is character who... It's such a specific, finely-tuned performance that you give because you could see this character being pushed way too far in one direction or the other and not quite working. But you're able to really ride this line between him being ridiculous sometimes, but still both feet being planted on the ground because you have to buy that he's a part of this more grounded naturalistic world out there, but he also has this larger than life persona that he's really pushing out there. And he's married to this woman who's incredibly grounded and holding them both down. Was there a balance there when you approach to the world?

Oh, completely. And I feel like it's a balance that we're always trying to calibrate every time that I'm on set. I think it's something Ben and I talked about a lot when I first came onto the show. Yeah, Yeah, I think it's a bit tricky because he is this larger than life character. I think even within a tone that is very grounded, you have to allow for those... I certainly know people. My background is in the theater originally in New York City. I know people who are very big and almost foppish or clownish in their life and have a love and a facility for language and often sound a little affected. I think in a great way, one thing he does is he maybe helps open up that Audi world. You believe that he exists in that world, but he isn't like everybody else. He marches to the beat of his own drum, and that's cool. We all have people in our lives who are a little odd or a little eccentric or a little annoying sometimes, but we love them. And yeah, I think one of the things that's hard for me with him is fighting the actor's impulse to want to be liked.

And I think that's an impulse that Ricken has, too. But knowing that there where some people out there are going to be like, oh, Rick and his friends are so annoying, and having to remember, well, maybe that's a good thing that people are put off by him at first, and then eventually the onion starts to get peeled back and you start to discover, oh, there's more to him than that, or he has sensitivity, he has vulnerability. Continuing to discover those ways in for the audience to see a different side of him is really what's been a fun challenge.

It's just fascinating, and there's nothing that makes me laugh harder whenever we're working than Rickon, but also it's just so fascinating whenever we get that peak behind his grandiosity, like in the finale of season one where Inymark and Rick have that moment outside where Ricken is like, I know you think I'm a fool. And you see his humanity, certainly, but you also see shades of these two guys that have known each other for a long time and maybe shift after change they've gone through together. It really is an incredible performance, the fact that you're able to do so many things at once.

Well, right back at you, I remember that night that we shot it. It was like, it was such a dance between us because we're holding so much. You had so much going on of any Mark meeting his idol, but all the other circumstances of the larger scene in that moment and trying to keep it together and not be found out. And so you had all that going on, and then I had all the stuff that Rickon's going through going on. And so I think I love that scene so much, and it's such a simple scene, but there's so much packed into it. I think that speaks to the tone of this show so precisely of trusting the audience. The audience is smart and that they're going to be watching and listening and knowing all that nuance that we don't have to play everything at once. There may be all of this stuff happening, but you as an actor can't do all those things. You just have to be there and listen and play the scene with your partner. Yeah.

Maybe that idea, though, that Ricken wants to be liked as an actor, I want to be liked. You're right. That instinct, when you play a part, is like, you don't want people to think you're an asshole, even if you're playing a character that sometimes can be like that. And maybe that, in a way, works for you, too. You're wanting people to like Ricken is also what Ricken wants.

Too. That's a gift of the character, yeah, is that those two things match. I think for me, one of the things is I've been in this business for a minute now is just a constant meditation on trying to let go of what the audience is going to think. There are millions of people who will see it, there'll be various responses to Rick. And so I can't control that. But what I can control is that I'm giving it as much dimensionality to him as possible, that I'm not considering him a joke, even if somebody else does.

And by the way, that allows for the interpretation for an audience to see different aspects of the character. It comes down to also a really important part of the show, which is why is Devon with Rickon? Because we see a lot of the time not the intimate, positive interaction between Devon and Rickon that must be there. That is the basis of their marriage.

We see- He's a generous, attentive lover.

Is he? Well, that's what I was going to ask you. What is it that Devon loves and reckon that we don't see.

I can't speak to what for a sheep.

Because they're an interesting couple.

They are an interesting couple, but that is one thing that surprises me when I see people on Reddit or whatever say, Why are they together? I'm like, Have you seen couples ever in the world. Opposites attract. Yeah, totally. There's so many people in my life that I'm like, How are they together? And it's like, Well, you don't know what happens behind closed doors. And I don't even mean that in terms of romantically, It's just like, it's a mystery why people fall in love with each other. It's one of the great mysteries of the human race. Why are you drawn to someone?

And that, in a way, makes it even a more interesting and believable couple to me.

Me, too. And I think he brings a lot of different things at the table that she doesn't possess and vice versa. I think she grounds him, and he helps her discover the more artistic, spontaneous improvisational side. It's also that we might be just meeting them in a hard moment. That's right. Long-term relationships, there are ups and downs, there are rifts, there are separations. In any given day, there are a thousand different coming-togethers and retreatings that happen, and we just see small windows into their life together.

I remember early on having conversations with us here, and then Dan and Jen as well, talking about the foursome of these two couples. When Gemma passed away, it was this schizm It was this change. There's this dividing line, and Mark certainly went in his direction, and Devon went to maybe take care of Mark, and Ricken had his own reaction. And the relationship between Mark and Ricken at one point was probably different than we see it in the show.

I mean, I certainly think so. I think it was very different. When there is a great loss like that, a family member, there's the immediate impact, but then there are all those ripple effects, right? When someone starts to have success, and we can talk about exactly how successful or not Rick is, but in their own mind, they start to become famous or whatever, What that does to, if in my opinion, I feel like you're not reading my books and you're not taking my art seriously, and the pain that causes for me. And I'm sure we can all speak to when you start to have more the notoriety, what that does to- Relationships. Relationships, yeah.

I also think in Ricken's work-life balance, it probably went into his writing and found some comfort there, probably. I think Ricken as a writer, he is in love with his own words. What do you think of him as a writer? Because I feel like he is successful on some level in this world, and yet he also probably inflates his own success in head.

It's such a tough thing. I don't think he's a great writer. I think he's a genre writer, right? He's in this... Within the realm of a philosophical self-help book, he's good at doing that genre. And I think there is a lot of truth to some of his little sayings, but it certainly is not a rigorous craft for him. I feel like the writing, it can be a little stream of consciousness It is certainly true to who he is, which is a compliment. You're getting the full ricken. But yeah, I think it's why on some level it appeals to the innies is there is, if you're this pure, unjaded, uncynical, almost childlike mind, he's saying these things that have a nugget of truth in them. But it's just all the trappings of this pretension and the self-importance that go around it.

Yeah, I feel like you and Dan have this special... You're a great mouth piece for this certain side of Dan, and I know how much he loves writing Rick and stuff, and you're the perfect cipher for all of that. You saying the hamburger waiter line and stuff like that, it's that belly laugh that feels so good. I love it so much, and Ricken really just gets me every time.

I mean, I love him so much, and I know Dan does, too. For better or for worse, I feel like I get him. And I really care about him. But I think at the same time, I can also honestly make fun of him. I mean, he's ridiculous.

Can I ask, how are things going with Balf?

Balf is a disappointment. I thought he was like raw clay that I could mold, and he's more just the clay is dried.

Too much of his own guy.

Well, yeah. I just have to explain everything.

How many Belfs have proceeded Belf.

Yeah, he's Belf 12.

Okay. Ricken goes through assistance, right?

You just name them all Belf.

Yeah, they're all just Belf. Yeah.

Okay, let's take a quick break and catch up on Ricken's latest version of the UUR. When we come back, we'll talk all about it.

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It's very clear that she's offering you a chance to do a version of the book for Inies, the You, You, Are. That sets off this trajectory here that we end up with in episode 5 in terms of Rick and having to make a some a moral decision, I guess, right, about what he does with the book. It's the literal opposite of what you were saying before.

Okay. I see how you'd feel that way, but one point that Nat made was-Nat?

Okay.

She said that innies tend to thrive in an environment of structure, and once that is established, then they are more open to self-expansion. So I am just trying to speak It's not a fair language.

I know, but this sounds like Lumen's language.

Well, it's a Trojan's horse. If I can get my ideas to severed workers all across the world, it might beget a revolution.

But these aren't your ideas. These are not your ideas.

And also- And what?

Okay, Lumen hurts people, you know that. And if you want to water down your work so they can use it for their fucking propaganda, then you're hurting people, too.

Okay. It's completely a moral decision, and I think it's such a great piece of writing to introduce this idea because it helps the audience really enter into that conundrum of Rickon, this ego side of being like, Oh, that's enticing. That would get my work out to so many more people. If I'm a big deal in there and those workies really are fans, that's great, being enticed by the fan base. But also this other part of him that knows that maybe this is a problematic decision. That wrestling with himself, I think, is really interesting.

Yeah. I think it's really interesting to see a little bit of the inner workings of the relationship with Devon there in that little negotiation or moment or question where you basically put out to her that, Hey, you want me to take this moral stance, but also are you willing to give up the creature comforts that come along with the success that we have?

Yeah. I can relate to that as a working actor. You have to make these decisions. Not I'm not necessarily working for Lumen, but sometimes you're like, I have to take this money gig. I have to take this job. It's like, I got offered this 24 episode police procedural or something, and I have to go do it, honey. Oh, but it's not Shakespeare in the park. Okay, yeah.

Well. Yeah. And these stances that were so easy to take before, suddenly when faced with the reality of something, it gets a little fuzzier and more dicey. Completely.

I don't know to what extent Ricken really understands how big of a star he is in the any world, but this idea that he has this fan base, what that does for him. Not just an opportunity to make money or to expand his reach, but just that there are finally people who really get him.

Yeah. Any Mark. Any Mark is his biggest fan.

Can I ask Jen Tolec, just the greatest. Can we ask- What a gift. About working with Jen?

Jen is the best. I mean, I loved you all's episode with her. She She's extraordinary. She really is a singular talent. You guys were talking on the podcast about how everything that comes out of her mouth just feels so real. And I couldn't agree more. She's so smart. She's very funny. And yet everything comes off so grounded and so true to her, and yet it's a character. It's such a funny blend. Like, Devon feels like Jen, but also feels like Devon, if that makes sense in the best way.

Did you guys talk before you started shooting the first time about your history? How do you approach being a believable married couple?

That's a great question. We didn't know each other beforehand. And if we remember, the first season was in the height of COVID times. So I think we met in the testing tent the first time, in hazmat suits, basically, getting our COVID test to work. And through our face shields, we're trying to discuss Rick and and Devon's history.

That was hard, man. That was hard.

But I know it's been said before, but it really, I think, added to that dystopian feel of the show. I mean, for me, showing up and we couldn't hug each other, and we could only take our masks off when the cameras were rolling, and the poor crew was just covered head to toe in strange future characteristic gear. For me, it added to the strange severancy vibe of the show.

Yeah, for sure. Well, yeah. I mean, I do think just the casting somehow came together between you and Jen and Adam. It worked off the bat with you guys. And that also is something you don't really know. If you're directing something, making something, you have this idea, this seems like these people might be good together, and that one reading they did together seemed really good, but you don't really know if it's going to gel and feel like something real. It really did. That was something that is really a gift that these people are just falling into this and really instinctually understanding how to connect.

Yeah, I mean, I didn't know you, Adam, and I didn't know Jen. How do you create relationships when they don't exist? It's a tough one. I think there's a lot of yes to ending that just happens. If you are an actor in an improviser, there's just going with the vibe that's happening and not saying no to things, but just giving over to what Adam and Jen were doing. And then I would also credit you, Ben and Efa, a lot that first season of just allowing a lot of different takes of choices faces. I remember Ben, you would early on just be like, Try one this way. Now try one that way. Now, try this. And just trusting that you guys were going to also edit some of that together because we didn't know the tone yet. I think we all had a guess, but especially with the Audi stuff, especially with Rick and Devon, what is this world? How does this book party fit in with the rest of the vibe? I remember you'd been coming up with the bell ringing app line. It's still one of my favorite.

Just gross.

You can't unring the bell ringing app.

Bell ringing app.

I remember your... I mean, look, I laugh endlessly at the stuff you do, and especially that scene, you're just being emotionally just exhausted from putting yourself out there from the reading, and you really need to take a moment. His voice is worn out. It needs the neti pot. It said in the script that... What does it say that your voice is... You ask Bal first on the netty pot, right? Because you're a throat. Yeah. So you had to- Because it's warbling. So you, as an actor, had to create whatever this issue in your throat that was going on before. And the weird warbling trill. It's like a trill It's so ridiculous.

Yeah, he doesn't get raspy, he goes higher. It's so ridiculous.

It makes me laugh so much.

Oh, creatures, from the leaping cat to the cowering shrew, think of themselves as you, a logical center for the universe. Yet the cat eats the shrew, and we, like Schrödinger, live on to wonder what it means. But even that, we had to I feel like we could all crack each other up all day long, right? But the quest was, how do we make this funny but be in severance? Yes, for sure.

But I have to say, off the bat, the first photoshoot that we did for the cover of the You You are. When I saw you doing these looks and this vibe of this guy, it was so perfect to me. I was like, yeah, this is what it's going to be. This guy is going to be ridiculous and funny me, but also you have to totally believe him. And that's the thing.

Yeah, I remember we needed that prop. So you guys went and shot those photos before you had ever shot anything for the show, Michael. So I remember seeing the book and being like, oh, yeah, this feels right.

That's Rick. I don't know if anyone had shot a frame. I think it was the camera testing.

You're probably right.

I came in, and I didn't know really who Rickon was. We tried a bunch of different hairdos, and I remember Ben being like, Could he look like leaf Garrett? Yeah.

And the You, You, Are, the book, it was actually written by Dan. He wrote a good portion of the book, and it's actually available on Apple Books now, and you read it.

Yeah, there's an audio book, too, right?

There's an audio book read by Rick and Hale.

Now, was Balf there when you recorded to have the netty pot in case your throat got dry?

He had to be. I mean...

Yeah, Balf 13 was there actually rubbing my feet and my feet cramp when I read. Interesting. Yeah, that was really fun and really hard. Really? Yeah. Joking aside, my voice was like a mess after those. I needed a Balf.

It's so funny. I mean, it's really great.

It's so good. Dan is just so smart, and as we know, it's just so invested in this world that literally every corner has been thought about. There are passages in what he wrote that just blew me away. I was reading a lot of it for the first time in the recording studio and just laughed laughing out loud. I mean, it's so good. There's some passages that are really actually affecting, too, in it.

Well, that's the thing, because Ricken is not a joke. Ricken is some real something there that we can't hold on to. I mean, we have to.

There is. And we learn some stuff about him in the audiobook. I won't give anything away, but there's some history and backstory that gets revealed that I think hopefully fleshes him out a little bit more for viewers.

Yeah, and relates to the story that we're telling. So check it out, the You are.

So, so fun. Michael, thank you so much for coming and doing the show. Oh my God, guys.

Thank you so much. So fun.

Thanks, man.

Thanks, guys.

Ben, before we take a break, why don't we answer a question from the hotline? Ryan, what do you say?

Yes, let's do it.

This hotline segment of the Severance podcast is sponsored by Confluence by Atlassian, the connected workspace where teams can create, organize, and deliver work like never before. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Influence. Hi, Severance employees. My name is Emma. I'm curious why melon for the melon party or incentive or whatever.

Curious if you could have any other fruit, what would it be instead of that? Because in my opinion, it's the worst fruit possible.

Whoa, Emma. Melon catching some strays.

Yeah. What's your issue with melon, Emma? I mean, if you're talking about the egg bar, for me, the egg bar is not coveted as fuck. It's actually my least favorite thing in the world is a hard-boiled egg or what we had in that scene, which the Scotch eggs. At the time, we were wearing PPE for COVID, and I was really grateful because I stay as far away as possible from those.

What would happen to you if you were forced to eat a Scotch egg?

I would probably throw up. Yeah. How about you? What would happen?

I would enjoy it. I enjoy eggs.

Oh, my God. See, now I know what Emma feels like with melons.

I remember also Zack and Brit were vegans, so they couldn't eat eggs. So didn't you guys have to find someone who made vegan replicas of eggs?

Yeah, which It was better than real eggs, so I was grateful for that. I love melon. I don't love all melon. I like cantaloupe as my favorite melon. Honeydew, I don't care for as much. Of course you do. You love cantaloupe. But I do enjoy how Zack does his a little toothpick search for which melon balls. Melon balls are definitely not my thing at all.

I enjoy cantaloupe got into circular shapes.

You do? I don't like the little scooper because it makes me think, well, that's like ice cream. It's like a mini ice cream scoop, but then it's like, oh, but it's not ice cream. It's melon. I want ice cream.

Okay.

Well, I guess that's it. That's my thinking on it.

All right, it's time for us to take a quick break. We'll be right back.

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Okay, it's time for us to dive into the rest of the episode where we see the fallout from last episode's somewhat disastrous Orkbow, starting with Heli/Helena back at Lumen/MDR. Helena is not happy about having to go back down there. Let's listen to the scene where Mr. Drummond basically tells Helena that she has to make this sacrifice for Lumen.

My Annie who tried to kill me, and then the other one tried to kill me. They're fucking animals. I'll just fake it again. We can't take that chance. We need to clean this up. Milchik's many errors this weekend have forced our hand. And Father approves.

Father encouraged it. Dari is so good.

Oh, my God. Dari Olofsson, a friend of mine who I met when we did Secret Life of Walter Mitty. When I met him, I was told he was probably the most popular actor in Iceland, which I think he is.

That makes sense.

He does stage, television film he produces, he writes, and he came over to do Drummond for us, which has just been, I think, just so much fun to see this... He's in that world of the... Not the new Grainer, but he has, I think, probably a more complicated position than Grainer had.

It seems like he has quite a bit of power.

Yes, he does. At this point, he's telling her something she doesn't want to hear in terms of, obviously, the fallout from the Ortebo and what Milchick screwed up on a big scale. She's having to deal with a lot of the fallout from that. And I think he's trying to be sensitive to it, but he's basically telling her that she's got to toe the company line and go back down.

Yeah, but something he's not saying, either out of politeness or deference, is that she fucked up, too. She got found out. She didn't pull it off.

That's true.

That's part of what's going on here, too. She doesn't like any of it. She calls Enies fucking animals, which is really crazy. But you can- Yeah, I think it's an interesting thing, the Egan perspective on Enies. Yeah, they're not like a whole person. Because if they thought of them that way, how would they be able to do any of this?

Yeah, and I think that for Helena, she's now at this point learned how people feel about Haley down there. I have to feel like she's missing out on something, it feels to me, that she's definitely not getting in her hell in a life. Totally. The interpersonal connections or the friendships, let alone the feelings for Mark.

Think about that. I mean, this relationship has blossomed on her watch in an intense way. I mean, they got physical and have this strong connection. Yeah.

And what are her feelings from that? I mean, they slept together. They were intimate with one another. So I think when she's calling them fucking animals, there's a real complicated reaction that's going on there to what she feels about Heli. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And then she has to go back down there, not as Helena, but she has to go through the separate transition and go back down as Heli. Good morning, Heli-R. Who the fuck are you? This is interesting because to me, one One of the big questions was, now that Heli is back, this is having to reset everything that got set up in the first four episodes in terms of having to bring Heli up to speed. And the Orthbow happened, and Irving was basically killed, any Irving. This question of how does Heli process all this not knowing anything that's happened that we all have seen for the first four episodes, and how does Milchick deal with this situation of all of them freaking out on him?

Yeah. I remember it being really important to me that it not just be a situation where Haley's back, Okay, let's catch her up and just continue figuring stuff out. It's such a betrayal, and such a... Mark's entire emotional world was turned upside down, so there needed to be some trust issues there. If you find out that the most important person in the world to you is not at all who you thought they were, there would be a strong reaction in the other direction. And so, yeah, that's a reset for Haley, a reset for everything because all the progress that they've made looking for Ms. Casey is out the window completely. Everything is the game board has been tossed or whatever you say.

Yeah, and there's no trust, and Milchick had to then reset them all again. Yeah. Mdr. Together. Together again. Come on in. I need to know what's going on. Like right now. Where's Irving? Why was he trying to drown me?

Because you're a fucking Egan.

Was she spying on us? Wait, what?

The whole time. It's called a Glasgow block. It allows one's Audi to... Wait, are you saying that she was down here as me?

Maybe she still is. Hey, I repeat myself. Where is Irving? Yeah, where is he? I'm so confused.

Answer my question.

Excuse me. Dylan becomes hyper-focused on Irv and needing everyone to acknowledge Irv dying, essentially, and not getting quite what he wants from anybody. And Heli, no one's quite giving her what she needs either. She's like, What the fuck? I'm just like, no one. Everybody's of often their own world.

How does Milchick explain that Helena was down there spying on them? Yeah. And so he comes up with this story of the Grochipan. Have you ever heard the story of the Grácschippan?

Let's assume we haven't.

In ancient times, the king of Sweden himself was known to go incognito amongst his people in the hopes of learning their true grievances. He would dawn an old gray robe, a grochschupan, the name for which he was remembered. The grochschupan was based on a true story, the true legends of the king or queen who would go undercover amongst the people when they didn't know what the king or queen looked like to understand the needs of their people. The grochipan is actually a true story. I will say that we came up with that idea of that story. And then Tramell, I think he called me up the night before we shot, and he was asking about the pronunciation of Grackipan. And I did not know that. And so he came in with this grochschuppan pronunciation. I don't know where he got it from, but I think he did some research on it.

It was impossible to not laugh whenever he did that. And we did it a lot. And we had a tough time because it's amazing.

Yeah, Swedish. It's Swedish because Dylan calls it Swedish horse shit, right? What I like about that scene is that it's believable enough that you could chew on it a little bit, but also nobody's really buying it also.

Nobody's even listening to what he's saying at this point, I don't think.

But it's also, at this point, it's like, I'm just going to tell you the story, and then he's I'm going to immediately take you out to the new MDR desks and show you the three desks. And all of a sudden, it's like the mind games are like, okay, this is it. He's gone. This is the reality. And I think there's an understanding that you don't really want to dig much deeper on this because your desk will be gone, too.

And the whole Lumen is listening thing is basically out the window, too.

Oh, yeah.

It's just like, oh, yeah, that's all done.

Let's talk about the funeral because Dylan really insists that they need to do something to remember Irving. This is in this aftermath of everybody just, I think, being so disoriented by what happened at the Ortebo and the news that Heli wasn't Heli. And everybody's retreating to their own corners. For Dylan, he's just focused on Irving, and Milchick puts together the bereavement ceremony. To me, it's this ominous little moment where you see him picking out the Irving cup. So the Irving coffee cup is going to be for Irving's bereavement ceremony. But you also see there's a Heli cup and there's a Mark cup. In the back of your head, maybe there's like, oh, someday each one of these people will have their own cup at their bereavement ceremony.

And the print out that you get the sense that there is a checklist for a bereavement ceremony, and they're just running through it and getting it ready.

And by the way, how about that watermelon head?

Oh, my God, the watermelon head.

There's something about that with that little... It has that little paper cap on it. He looks like little Pope Irving, right?

Yeah, he does. I mean that totally respectfully. I could see John being the Pope. He could pull it off.

He should have been in Conclave.

I agree.

I haven't even seen Conclave, but I feel like he should have been.

I saw Conclave. Everyone's incredible. Tutturo should have been in there somewhere.

But then Dylan gives this very sweet eulogy for Irving.

He asked me for help with something near the end, and I didn't listen.

In his final moments, he would have been totally justified in telling me to suck my own fuck, but he didn't.

He was awesome, and I miss him. Thank you, Dylan G.

A little sugar with your usual salt.

I remember shooting that and just thinking, Jack is so great. I love Ms. Wong and her theremin playing, how she just... The sound design on that one, I know you and Jeff probably found the timing of this. The one little peep of theremin we get before Milchick tells it. It's just a perfectly timed comedic thing.

Yeah, they've got their own little work situation happening, the dynamic going on between the two of them. You get to sense that she's not really being given the chance to spread her wings as much as she might want to.

Sarah Bach, the great Sarah Bach.

Yes. It's also interesting because you're not really into it as Mark.

No, I think that I'm at a place where... Or Mark is at a place where it's all a waste of time. What are we doing? What difference does it make if we have a funeral for Irving or we don't have a funeral for Irving? He's gone. He's not dead, by the way. He's out there in the world. We're stuck down here. If we're here, sure, go do your funeral, whatever. It's cynicism. He's experiencing cynicism, I think, for the first time.

Yeah. Well, it's also interesting because you have spent 40 minutes in the outside world. You have an experience of the outside world that Dylan doesn't have. He's had maybe 30 seconds in his closet. But when you say Irving's not dead, you're really coming at it from a place of like, I think you're just so over the whole thing. But also, I think, in my mind, also feeling this hurt from the Helen lie. And Dylan's feeling this hurt having lost Irving.

Yeah. And Helen feels hurt because no one is coming up and saying, Hey, are you okay? What are you feeling? Everybody is deeply hurt and isolated.

At the same time, you're processing the fact that you now don't trust Haley because you don't know. You really don't know. So everything is upended.

What was she like? Like you or you're like her? I don't know. I don't know who you are, I guess.

Yes, you do. Okay. It's not my fault that my Audi hijacked me.

Yeah, no, no, totally. I get it. It sucks.

Mark. Yeah. What happened to you up there?

It doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter? No. Do you want to hear what happened to me?

No, I don't. And let's just try to forget it. The bathroom scene between Brit and I was tricky to get just that tone exactly right. Mark's reaction to her and her approach to Mark. It was complicated and difficult in it. Very fine-lined, very subtle differences. But I I love that scene, but it wasn't easy to nail down.

No, there were so many different agendas to juggle in terms of what would be on the character's minds after this huge revelation.

Because it's a really important scene, not eventful, but a really emotionally important scene.

Yeah, because the audience has... I felt it was incredibly important that the audience after episode four can get reinvested in what's going on and is not going, Well, wait a minute. This happened or that happened. How could they even not worry about Yeah. It took a little while to figure out what were the important things that the characters had to address for us to really reset the story and keep it going forward in these little interaction moments It's not like a bigger story thing. It's more like a little emotional tracking stuff. But it was also storytelling-wise, we thought, Mark has to rethink everything that happened in the first four episodes. And so he has to really go back and process that. And what it does is it takes away any trust he really has in Heli. And so they have to figure out how to rebuild their relationship. Yeah.

And I think up until their conversation at the end, he's made a game time decision of, let's just do whatever they say. It doesn't matter if we do one thing or the other. We're going to end up right back at this spot. We might as well just refine and keep going.

Yeah. It's like Mark has He'd become, from the first season, if he was the young child in the second season, he's becoming much more aware, much more rebellious. But now he has a, I don't give a fuck, attitude, which makes him even more, I think, of a loose canon because he really doesn't know what to believe in, what's true, what's not true. He knows he doesn't trust Lumen, any Mark. And he's lost trust in Heli. But what we see also is how much Heli and Mark have feelings for each other, too, that regardless of that. Yes. As we see, because we see you come together, and that part of it is a very important element of the story. It, in a way, helps bond Heli and Mark by the end of this episode, wouldn't you say?

I do, and I think that it's in that last conversation in the hallway. But there's still this secret between them that Milchick exploits at the that's particularly diabolical on Milchick's part, I think.

Yeah. You mean the elevator? Yes. Yeah. I mean, that to me is this moment where Milchick is under the gun because he's just gotten this performance review, where we're really starting to feel the companies turning the screws on him. Yeah.

He can't find an ally at all. He's just alone.

Welcome, Mr. Milchick.

Today, I will be conducting your monthly performance review. This review can take anywhere from 2-6 hours, depending on the number of atonements and approbations required.

If the review is to take longer than four hours, there will be a break for lunch with the order taken in advance. Well, I hope that won't be necessary. Here is the lunch menu. The performance review with Milchick is, I think, part of this trajectory that we're seeing of Milchick is doing a lot that is probably new for him, new responsibilities within the company as being the floor manager, but also after three, we're feeling like, well, he's questioning also what the attitude is really towards him, the company.

He's quietly questioning, which is what's so fascinating about it.

Yeah. Well, he's, I think, incredibly loyal to the company. Yes. What I like about this whole little trajectory that's evolving is people see Milchick as a very mysterious and sometimes scary character. I'm starting to feel, especially as we see him relating to Drummond, who is this, obviously his superior and is putting him through the Ringer on this performance review that Milchick has to answer to someone as well. It's just interesting to see Milchick be put in this position where he has to respond to his superior. It's not Cobell, and Cobell and him, I think we look at that in relation to Drumond and Milchick. Cobell and Milchick have a much deeper relationship. There's a friendship there. You can tell, even if it's underneath, Cobell would confide in him about things that she was doing that were possibly not totally kosher at the company. It felt like there was a trust.

Yeah. And he's without that now. Yeah. There's no one to talk to.

No. And Drumond is there with Natalie, going through all of these infractions and also trying to figure out who reported him. And you see that he's taking it really hard. Yeah.

And in three, when Natalie brings him the paintings, Tramell is just so deeply excellent through all of these things he's going through. He doesn't have anyone to confide in or talk to, but we, the audience, we get led in on these questions that he's having, but none of it's verbal. We just experience it with him. And he's so good that we don't need it to be verbalized. No. But you see him going through it and we get it emotionally.

And you do see that he reaches out to Natalie before the performance review. Oh, yeah. Right. To try to connect on what happened with the paintings. And this question of, did you feel weird, too, when you got these paintings? And she's not going to go there with him.

No, he doesn't get in.

And it goes the other way. And then, of course, you see that trickle down effect of post performance review when he's told to tighten the leash that he takes it out directly on Mark in the elevator.

Sure does.

Did you and Hélia catch up?

We did. Did you tell her that you fucked her out at the Orp Helena Egan, leader in waiting of this company.

First time we ever see Milchick, I think, talk like that, use bad language like that. It's shocking. Do you remember the documentary, The Cove, about the Dolphins in Japan? It came out maybe 10 years ago, and I think it won an Oscar. There was a character named... They called him Personal Space because he would get up in the face of one of the protesters. Anyway, to me, when I think of Tramell coming right up to you, he's getting into your personal space there. I mean, it's so comfortably close. Just the two of you are face to face in profile, and you're giving him more shit than you've ever given him. Yeah.

I mean, it's post the conversation with Haley, it's after all this stuff, and it's just like, okay, dude, I think that Mark is far more free to call him on his bullshit, or feels far more free to milk you on his bullshit than he ever has. He has nothing to lose at this point, essentially.

Yeah. And then, meanwhile, on the outside, Side, Ragabi is there living with you, and you've agreed to this reintegration process. It's very arcane and weird, and you have to drink special liquid, and you're over the fact that you have to live with her there. I love what she says to you, something about the washing machine is not working or something, and you say something like, Yeah, or you could just not live here.

I think Ragabi and Mark are opposite. Sits in a lot of ways, and she has no real party manners. She's just all business, and I do not think they're best friends.

I like the theme, though, that's developed in the show of people living in Mark's basement. You have Pini living in your basement in season one. You have Ragabi in season two.

Karen Aldrich is just fantastic. I love Karen.

It's so good. I like with Jen Tullet, how she can't not do something that feels real. I feel like with Karen, you never get a take that's the same way twice because it's always coming from a place of she's processing whatever she's heard in the moment, and whatever is going to come out is going to come out in a way that feels right for that moment. It's always interesting, and it's always believable Totally. She carries a lot of water that way in terms of having we have to believe that she can do this process. What do you think, Mark, at this point, he's decided he wants to do this reintegration because he believes that this is his chance to contact JeffEmma. Yes. But he's also getting a little bit maybe skeptical of Raghabi because at the end of the day, she's just this person in his basement who's telling him that she's doing this stuff, but he has no other proof, really, of it. But he's desperate because he believes her now that he has enough information from what cobel told him that he thinks this could actually be a real thing.

Yeah. And he knows that she's the one that was trying to reintegrate Petey, and she's convinced him that she's figured it out since then because obviously it ended up killing Petey. But I think at the end of the day, him finding out that Gemma is in fact alive, this is a real piece of information, it's worth dying for. I think that it is the most important thing, obviously in his life, but maybe the most important thing, he has to do this no matter what.

It had to be that. Yeah. You've taken the first steps and you're starting to reintegrate. I mean, we're starting to see that. And the end of the episode is really where we see it start to happen for you in a way that for the first time, you're dissociating from where you are, and you're starting to have these flashes of being on the severed floor. And all of a sudden, you're in the long, dark hallway from the break room. And it's the first time we ever see you, Audimarc, having a glimpse into any Mark's world.

Yeah, that was really interesting shooting in the MDR hallways as Audimarc in those clothes and stuff. It was so bizarre.

Yeah, you were in a sweatshirt. In a sweatshirt in the MDR hallways. I was like, this is crazy.

It's crazy. Seeing just the visual of Audi Mark down there is super interesting, too. It's really weird. But yeah, and We shot all of that stuff, both Innie and Audi. So Sam would have me walk down that hallway and keep in the exact same, trying to keep everything exactly the same in two different pieces of wardrobe. So we could do those flashes back and forth and not have it be green screen or whatever, but actually do all of it. And it was really meticulous.

Well, you did that also in episode three when we did it for you waking up on the table at the end of episode three, where you had to do every different permutation. But I think to me, what I take away from that scene and the way the episode ends is the feeling, the emotional toll that this is taking on you, because all of a sudden, Audi Mark is seeing for a second, he sees Gemma, a Miss Casey version of Gemma, but it's Gemma. And we end on this moment of you back in reality in your living room or wherever. And you're basically almost crying there because it's such a deep feeling And to me, that's really effective the way that it was done because it reminded me of waking up from a dream. If you've ever had a dream where you see someone who you missed or you have a deep emotion in a dream. And for me, a lot of times, my dreams are feelings that I associate with them as much as the imagery. I've had that where I've woken up almost crying. That, to me, was the most impactful part of that whole sequence was the fact that, oh, wait, this is going to take an emotional toll on Mark, this journey of trying to reintegrate.

Yeah, because what we were figuring out and really zeroing in on shooting that scene was this is the first time he has seen Gemma in three years, and he's not looking at a photograph her. He's not watching something on his phone. She is standing in front of him. When someone dies, you're never going to see them again. She's right there. Yeah, she's dressed weird, and hair is different in everything, but just the emotional shock of standing right there with her, or that's how it feels anyway. Yeah.

To me, it's very emotional at the end of that episode. I think that gets back to the core of what I think we always want with the show is keep it grounded in that as much as any of the weirdness or anything is really Mark's journey. Before we say goodbye, it's time to hear Zack Cherry's prediction of what's going to happen in the next episode, in episode 6, which I'm really looking forward to.

Oh, yeah. Let's see.

Hi, all. Zack Cherry here again, and it's time for that part of the episode where I make a prediction about what's going to happen next.

Next time on Severance.

I think that Dylan is going to be inspired by watching Ms. Wong play Theramon, and he's going to take up an instrument of his own called The Voice. That's right. Dylan's going to start taking voice lessons, and it will sound a little something like this.

That's just his first lesson.

He is going submit himself to be on a music competition reality show. What's your favorite music competition reality show? Write in to Ben and Adam and let them know what your favorite music competition reality show is.

I love it. Yeah. I love it.

I would love to see a Lumen competition reality show.

Yeah. Well, first of all, I think I'd love to see Dylan on, I don't know, American Idol. That was, by the way, I used to watch American Idol back in the old days. Oh, me too. That was That was my thing. I think Dylan, the guy is very lovable, and that goes a long way on those competition singing shows.

I think he would have gotten further than Bo Bice, that's for sure. Bo Bice.

I was a big Bo Bice fan.

Did Bo Bice win?

He was the runner up, but I wanted him to win. I wanted him to win. Me, too. Do you remember what song he did?

I think he did...

Vehicle. What's that? Be your vehicle, baby.

Be your vehicle, baby. He did a lot of songs like that.

Well, I think Dylan should definitely go on a reality show. The Lumen Reality Show for singing, I'm sure that Ms. Cobell would be judging.

Ms. Cobell would be like the Simon. Right.

She'd be the Simon cow, and you'd have to sing the not punitive rendition of the Cure Him.

That's the only song anyone could sing.

That's the only song you can sing, just different interpretations of it.

All the judges would be Simons. Everyone would be mean. Okay, and that is it for this episode. The Severance podcast with Ben and Adam will be back next week to talk about Season 2, Episode 6.

Yes, and you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV Plus with new episodes coming out every Friday.

Then make sure you're listening to our podcast, which drops right after the episode airs. The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malowski, Gabriele Lewis, Jenner Weiss-Bermann, and Leah Reece Dennis. This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Baisal. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davie Subner.

Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Mora Kieran, Eric Dunnily, Michael LeVay, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kirt Courtney, and Hilary Shuff.

And the team at Red Hour, John Lesher, Carolina Pesecob, John Pablo-Antonetti, Martin Valdaruten, Ashwin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Agger.

And at Great Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christie Smith at Rise Management.

We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaater. And this has been really fun. I'm Ben Stiller.

And I'm Adam Scott, and I agree that it's been super fun. Remember, everyone, that your Audi once captured a butterfly, and you can, too. Thank you. Bye.