Transcript of S2EP1: Hello, Ms. Cobel (with Tramell Tillman)

This episode of the Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is presented by State Farm. Learn more at statefarm. Com/severance. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there. Hey, Adam. Yeah. Is your experience at work a bit dysfunctional lately? I don't know. I think it's- Okay, I'll take that as a yes. Your team could undergo a highly controversial surgical procedure that would mercifully sever any and all memories of that work experience from your home lives. Or you could try Confluence by Atlassian.

Oh, my God. Well, if it's a choice between those two things, I think I would 100% choose Confluence by Atlassian.

Confluence is the connected workspace where teams can collaborate and create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for while discovering important contexts they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time, letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year.

That would equal out, if we're playing with, let's just say 100%, 5.2 of those percentage points, that's the improvement.

I mean, I'm not great at math, but that sounds very close.

Well, I'm doing the math in my head right now as we speak, and I think that's great.

Why not keep your team unsevered? In Confluence, the connected workspace where teams can do it all. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at adlassian. Com confluence. That's atlassian. Com/confluence.

Hey, everybody. Before we get started, we just want to say a word about the terrible tragedy in Los Angeles and the fires that have been wreaking havoc all over and just say that our thoughts and our hearts go out to all those affected.

Yeah. I know so many people who've been affected in their lives have been turned upside down. I know you know people, Adam, and just sending a lot of love and support to people. We're going to have a link in the show notes, too, if you want to have somewhere that you can help support the relief efforts and just It's also a huge thanks to the first responders, the firefighters, all the people who have been working so hard to put an end to what's going on there. Our hearts are with you.

We're sending our love and support to our friends, family, and listeners in Los Angeles.

This is Tramell Tillman or Mr. Milchick, your funky DJ, here on the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam.

Hey, I'm Ben Stiller. I'm Adam Scott. And this is the Severance podcast with Ben and Adam, where we break down every episode of Severance.

And today, the wait is over. It's the moment we've all been waiting for. It's time to discuss the season 2 premiere.

Yes, finally, here we are. Not only that, but we got some new perks for the listeners this season. We couldn't send everybody finger traps, but we did open up our very own hotline. You can call the telephone post box of Lumen Industry's Severed Floor at 212-830-3816. That's 212-830-3816. Leave us a message with a question, and we might just answer it on the air.

We've got a brand new segment for Season 2. At the end of every episode, Zack Cherry is going to give us his own predictions for what happens in the following week's episode.

Yeah, this is just a wild card because who knows where Zack's coming from.

And Zack, we often go to Zack because we know he's clairvoyant.

Yes, he definitely has a record of being able to predict things in the future. I just want to make sure that he knows we're talking about Severance, not Fall Out or any of the other shows that he does.

37 shows he's on? Yeah.

Okay, so here's what we're going to do in this episode. You and I are going to talk about the premiere episode, which is titled Hello, Ms. Cabell, which was written by series creator, Dan Erickson, and directed by me.

And anything from the episode is fair game for us to discuss. So consider this your spoiler warning. Make sure to watch the first episode of the second season before listening to this.

Yes. Adam, you should do that, too.

Yeah, I need to get on that.

Then later in the episode, we're going to be joined by Tramell Tillman. Yes. Who plays Mr. Milchick. I mean, it's Tramell Tillman. Incredible. Come on. I think you could consider him a breakout character.

A hundred %.

He's amazing. He'll answer our questions. I have a lot of questions for him. Also, he's going to answer your questions, you, the listener, because we have the hotline, so that's going to be fun, too.

That's right. Then we're going to hear what Zack has to say about this episode's Cliffhanger and what he thinks will go down in episode 2. Sound good?

Yes, I'm looking forward to that.

Me too. Yeah. Okay, should we just dig into the premiere here? Yeah.

I mean, and oh, my goodness, here we are talking about the premiere.

Finally.

I mean, I have to say I thought about it a lot and just thinking about how do you come back after three years away, the expectation, the cliffhanger. Needless to say, we felt there was like, we want to come back with some energy. Yes.

You had asked me early on, what would you do if this happened to you?

Yeah. I think it's usually the best place to start with When you're trying to figure out what's the logical thing to show or do in a story, it's like, what would really happen? Okay, Innie Mark has just seen this picture of Ms. Casey, and he realizes that she's alive and she's his Audi's wife, and then all of a sudden, he's back in the elevator. I asked you, what would you do, Adam?

My first knee-jerk reaction was, I would just start running and trying to find her. I would just run towards the wellness center.

That, for me, was like, Oh, great. We can do another running in the hallway scene, because we haven't done that before. It was actually really fun to think about because I felt like, Oh, this could be a nice mirror to season one's first scene in MDR when we first see you come off the elevator and you walk through all the hallways to get to MDR. I thought, Okay, let's tell everybody this is going to be a little bit more jacked up, a little more energy, a little more... The stakes are a little bit higher, and let's do this in a way that we haven't seen before, hopefully.

Yeah, and it was incredible to watch gradually over time. You build this sequence out from that conversation to what it eventually became. But you were really building it in your mind and with your team over a period of time, and it just kept growing and getting more detailed and intricate and really told its own little story here.

Much to the consternation of our scheduling team. But that's also part of, I think, what you have to do when you're thinking about these things is, what are these moments that were three years down the line or wherever it's going to be? We didn't think it would be three years, by the way, when we did it. But what is going to be exciting to see and how do we figure that out? It was a great collaboration between, of course, Jessica Lee-Ganier, our cinematographer, and Jeremy Hindle, our production designer, and our gaffer, and our grip, and all of the people on the camera team to figure out our visual affects people to figure out how to do these different shots that would all feel like one shot. I think there are about 10 different pieces in it.

We shot those 10 different pieces over a period of, what would you say, five months?

Yeah. It was only because we were shooting other things and we realized that we were trying to jam this into our schedule. Something that on the page was maybe half a page or three quarters of a page, if that, saying that Mark runs through different hallways to get to the wellness It ended up being probably 10 different pieces where each one had a different need in terms of what had to be done with the set. It was one where we had to do it completely with green screen and have you on a treadmill and have a motion control camera come around in front of you and do all this stuff. Then there was one where we had to pull one of the walls out. We were using this machine called a bolt arm. That's a motion control robot arm that the camera is on that you can program in moves to. That thing takes up a lot of space. Our normal layout of all the hallways had to get torn up. Then when you're doing that, you can't shoot other scenes in the hallway. We had to schedule it at times when maybe you guys would be shooting a scene in a different set.

That was a lot of logistics, and our AD team and everybody on the show, I think, really got into it. It just started out with some storyboards that went into what we call a previs, which is a computer animation of the shot that has the actual size of the lenses. It's basically this bad animation that then you work off of as a template and then figure out how you do the different parts of the shots based on what that is.

I remember you showing me the previs and just being like, Oh, wow, this is going to be a lot of running. It was. Now, a few years later, people are seeing this sequence now and asking me if I trained to do this sequence. Of course, I should have trained to do this sequence.

You should just say yes.

I know, I should.

Nobody knows.

But you know what? The training was doing it because I got into good shape from doing all of this running over and over again.

You should have said you trained by watching Tom Cruise run in Mission Impossible.

Which is actually what I did. Okay.

That is the best way to do it. It is.

Anyone that wants to train for running of any kind, just watch Tom Cruise.

Because then he does all the workThat's right. You can just... He's doing it for the rest of us. Yes. Then we picked a song that's, I think, really fun and jazzy and has the vibe of the tone of the music that we have when we're down at MDR sometimes. That's by the great Les McCann. It's a song called Burning Coal. I think he recorded it in 1968 or 1969. He actually just passed away last year.Oh, he did?Yeah.Oh, wow. He was a jazz great. It was really fun to then work with Jeff Richmond, our editor, in terms of figuring out the edit and the timing for the song, and with our music editor to really figure out how to make that track work, and then bringing in Teddy Shapiro's score in the back half of the scene to transition into the more thriller-y and ominous vibe that it ends when you finally get to the wellness area and it's been disappeared.

Yeah, it's just erased. You see the faint outline of Wellness Center on the wall, which my immediate instinct when I saw that was that in and of itself is probably a mind game of some sort. Yeah, for sure. Being able to still see it a little bit.

That was a Jeremy Hindle idea, too, to open the door. Because I think Dan had written it that they were boarded up. Then Jeremy Hindle showed me a rendering one day where it was just the outline of the doors. I was like, Oh, this is so weird. Then I wanted to make sure that we had the outline of where the painting was that Bert and Irving looked at. That's right. Do how the Grinch stole Christmas, the pictures are off the wall, and there's just a hook hanging there. Oh, yeah. That was my image. But the outline of the dust where the picture was. That was really challenging for you and challenging for everybody. It was fun. It was really fun to watch.

It was our own little side project while making the show. Exactly. When we finished it, we had our own little wrap. That's right. It was really, really fun.

At the end of that whole run, you discover this new team in MDR, these three strangers who are played by Alias Shawcat, Bob Balaban, and Stefano Cerenante, who's a wonderful Italian actor. Great.

What a cool group of people, too. The crazy thing was this is the first thing we shot. When I came back to work on Severance, it felt like I was just working with a new cast. John, Zack, and Brit hadn't started yet. The first, what was it, two weeks that we worked with this group of people?

Yeah, which was mirroring what was going on in the scene. For me, it was a thrill to work with Bob Baliman, who I've known for a number of years, but is just a real acting legend. I mean, he's been in so many great films, amazing character actor, going all the way back to Midnight Cowboy. Let's play a little bit of that clip where you talk to him when you're trying to figure out what's going on. Great.

We showed up about an hour before you did. It's a little crammed compared to our old MDR, but I love the green carbon. Ours was a creme brûlé, and the keyboards were puce.They.

Were purple.No.

They were puce. I know because it makes me nauseous, and I hate sweets.

Speaking of which, how much do we see of that Mr. Milchick?

Milchick. What? It's milkchick, not milkshake. I don't know. I love how Bob and Alia have this bickering relationship. They've obviously been stuck together for a while.

Yes, they definitely don't love each other. What else I also love here is just what we learn about these other branches, supposedly. Whoever these people are, the Italian guy is talking about how that they didn't have an elevator, they had ropes, right? Yes.

In the perpetuity wing, instead of the wax figures, they had brooms and ropes representing the Keir family.

They were very It was a poor branch.

But at Alia's perpetuity wing, they had animatronic figures. Exactly.

It's these little things that, are they real? Are they not? They seem real to these people. I love the details that Dan puts in there. To me also, it's just very funny this banter that's going on between them. It's a bizarro world alt banter that's happening that happens in the other cubicles that we don't follow in show.

That's right. You see that they, too, are micro-focused in on really frivolous, stupid stuff. It's their whole life. They're talking about the carpet and the keyboards and all these weird things that are huge parts of their life.

Yeah. It's that interesting thing, almost like with people you know versus people you don't know, where you could be in the same familiar setting with people, but when it's different people, it just feels so weird. You feel that with Mark. It's like, he's just in another... It just feels... It's almost more lonely. Yes. Then Alia takes you to the closet, and we learn that the closet has been basically boarded up and turned into just a cabinet.

Right, which is where they hatched all of their plans. They're just erasing everything that happened.

Yeah. We're getting the feeling that Lumen has made some changes, but they're not really talking about it.

Then we meet someone named Ms. Wong.

Yes, Ms. Wong.

The great Sarah Bach.

Yeah. Yes, what a wonderful young actress. Sarah came in and read for the show, and she was so good and so centered and inscrutable. Much the way I feel with Tramela Mel Tillman, who's such a warm guy, and we're going to be talking to him in a little bit. But his Milcha character is so cold, and so there's life there, and of course, there's something underneath it that was what makes it interesting. But Sarah is able to do that also. I found it fascinating to watch her because she seemed so mature. She was only 15, I think, or 16 when we started shooting. That's right. She seems to be now coming to do the ball game with you, which is what Milchick did in the first season.

That's right. Her own version of it. Yeah.

She's got a smaller little red ball, and you're doing it at the table. Again, it's with these people, this alternate reality where you do get the sense of what their whole dynamic is. We also get the sense that Ms. Wong is going to be a formidable authority figure for you.

She is very much in charge and does not want anyone to mess with her or knock her or her game off balance. Mark makes a decision pretty quickly that he doesn't really want to share anything with these people or with her.

There's this moment after the introductions where Mark W. Asks her a very pertinent question. Mark W.

Why are you a child?

Because of when I was born.

So when we shot this, I immediately just thought this is going to be a classic severance moment and line. It was just so funny, both Bob's delivery of the question and then Sarah's just withering being deadpan of her response is just so great. It's those great moments where you just feel so lucky to be on a show. Okay, let's take a quick break, but don't worry, unlike the Wellness Center, we will be right back. In this episode, Mark is having trouble going back to Luma knowing now about his Audi's life, reintegration and getting settled into this new normal are not easy. You probably don't have a chip in your head. So I bet it sends shivers down your spine to start thinking about working with a new team, report to new management, or to get your own insurance. But State Farm is here to help. Your local agent is there to assist you as you navigate the process and help explain your options so you choose what fits for you. Clearly, Mark S. Works best with his old team. They're like family. But eventually, it's time to get severed from your parents' insurance policy. That's why State Farm is here to serve you, not here.

Whether you prefer in person, over the phone, on statefarm. Com or through the app, your agent is there to help you make it a seamless transition into your new insurance reality. Learn how an agent can help you get out of your parents' insurance and into your own policy at statefarm. Com/severance. Like a good neighbor, State Farm is there.

For the past three seasons of gone south, we've covered one story per season. We tried to figure out who killed Margaret Coon. She told me, I'm going to kill you.

I said, Well, do it, bitch.

Go ahead and do it.

We delved into the violent world of the Dixie Mafia. I'm an outlaw, and I was a thief, but I'm far from being the psychotic nutcase that I've been made out to be.

And we tracked a serial killer in Laredo, Texas. Just turn around.

Please.

Turn around. Now, Gone South is back for a fourth season, but this time, we're doing things a little differently.

So in Gone South Season 4, we'll be bringing you new stories every week with no end in sight. I'm Jed Lepinsky. Welcome back to Gone South, an Odyssey Original podcast. Listen and follow now on the free The Odyssey app or wherever you get your podcasts for new episodes every week. Okay, so eventually, you force the hand of Mr. Milchick and say that you want the team back, and we think you're going to get fired. We don't know what's happening. He shoves you in the elevator. We don't know. And we're in your point of view. And by the way, this is the only time that we have an episode where it's all mini. This was something we had never done before. We're staying in Mark's point of view the whole time. We did this thing where you severed transition up and then you severed transition back down, which was, we call it the Zolley, the in and out, zooming in, dollying out, or dollying in, zooming out. We called it a double Zolley for this one because we had the first transition where you would have come out of the elevator, but then we stayed with you with any Mark's consciousness and had you sever back in We were feeling what any Mark would feel.

We actually shot it without cutting. We actually shot me going Innie to Outie and then back to Innie. Yes.

You had to do that, which at this point, you've perfected the Zolley transition for the acting part of it, which I've always said is the most important part of it is what you're doing as an actor. But you had to go from any to outy to any.

And then back.

Yeah, that's right. It was the camera going in and out, in and out. It was something we'd never done. It was fun and weird. Then all of a sudden, we have this little sequence of you going to work, leaving, going to work, coming to work, leaving. We get the monotony of it from your point of view, the any point of view.

Yeah, we get to experience what it's actually like as an any to leave and come back to work. Yes.

Which is interesting. You try to trick Milchick saying that Mark W, Bob Balivan's character, has basically has written a note that you wrote, and it gets found out, and then you try to get in touch with the board, and that doesn't work. All of a sudden, we think you're going to be fired, and the elevator opens, and you see that there's a new painting on the wall that was never there. That's a very ominous mural of, it seems like these four prisoners buried up to their heads in the sand with some an army.

Keir Egan is there.

Keir Egan is there exactly in charge.

With a sword?

Yes. It's very daunting, the picture. As you're taking that in, all of a sudden, the door opens, Dylan comes back. Dylan. Then Irving comes back, and then Haley comes back, and you're all together again for the first time.

My question is, the grabbing and forcing the hand of Milchick and getting in touch with the board seems to have had an effect of some sort, because it's after that that everybody comes back.

Yes, we don't know what happened. No. And any Mark doesn't know what happened. But he wasn't fired. He's back, and all of a sudden, his team is back, and the other people are gone.

So something may have struck a court. Who knows?

Yeah, who knows? Who knows what happened? Then Ms. Wong shows up in MDR and says, We're going to the break room. Everybody's going to the break room.

Which is scary, obviously, for these people. Yes.

Then we see the new break room has been redone. As a rec room of sorts. Yeah, it's got some cool furniture.

It's- Some awesome posters.

It's got posters. It's brighter. There's a big screen video projector.

Yeah, it's like one of those video projector screens you see in rec rooms in the late '80s, early '90s.

There's a weird game on the wall. We don't quite know what that is. That's right. Then Milchick is very very nice and basically says, Hey, take a look at this. It's a video that's been produced to explain to you what happened.

Yeah, it's like a welcome video, but also a catch-up.

Yeah. It happens to have been done as an animated entertainment for you.

Yeah, so it's claymation.

Well, technically, it's not claymation. I think that's your Parks and Rec. Okay.

Claymation. What is it exactly?

Which, by the way, is one of the classic episodes of all time.

Oh, my God. You've always loved the claymation.

With a stand in the place where you are. It took us like a second and a half.

That's right. It took so long to make that.

Anyway, so, yeah, we thought it would be interesting, and apparently, Lumen thought it would be interesting to do this video in a way that turns the MDR refiners into these little puppets that was stop motion, puppetry. It was done with a guy named Duke Johnson, who's a brilliant animator, who did Animalisa with Charlie Kaufman and his Starburns studio. We did it with them for real. It's a real stop motion over the course of a couple of weeks. It was the first thing that we shot for the whole season. But within the episode, what's fun is that, to me, I grew up watching these animated Christmas specials that were on in the early '70s. One in particular that I love was The Year Without a Santa Claus that had Mickey Rooney as the voice of Santa Claus, Shirley Booth as Mrs. Claus. Basically, Santa thinks of Christmas. Nobody cares about Santa Claus anymore, so he says he's taking Christmas off. They have to figure out a way for the children of the world to let Santa know that they want him. They send Santa and the elves. He has his two elves, Jingle and Jangle Elf, and they go down to Southtown, USA, on one of the Reindier, I think, of Vixen.

They have to fly between the heat miser and the snow miser. The heat miser is in charge of all the hot weather in the world, and the snow miser is in charge of all the wintery weather.

Anyway. This is something that you watched over and over as a kid, like every Christmas.

Yeah, also the Rudolf, the Red Nose Reinder one.

Yeah, of course. I've definitely seen that.

Rudolf and the Baby New Year. It was Rankin and Bass. They were the animators, and these are classics. They're on every year. You can get them every year. But there's one moment where the heat miser, his hair goes on fire because he's orange and red, and he's voiced by George S. Irving and Snowmiser is voiced by Dick Sean, these two great character actors. Anyway, we did a little moment with Irving that's a nod to the heat miser's song in there.

When he says, Let's burn this place to the ground.

Let's burn this place to the ground. There's these little Irvings with their hair on fire. It ends up being what they call the Aqrodat uprising.

Also, another interesting thing about it is that the main character and the narrator of the film is the building, and they're turning the Lumen building into this jolly happy-go-lucky inviting father figure to all of Lumen and its employees.

That's right. Anyway, that happens. Basically, you guys are told by Milchick like, Hey, I'm not going to be your jailer.

Yeah.

No one's going to be watching you. Of course, nobody really believes any of this.

That's the funny thing about it, is that all four of us immediately just shrug it off. Just like, Okay, whatever, dude.

I think it's so sinister that they would do something that was so upbeat and fun and childlike. But basically, we're learning within that little piece that they've recorded your voices because there's a recording of you making your speech at O&D, a recording of Irving saying, Let's burn this place to the ground, that are actual recordings. In my mind, it's even more ominous. Yeah.

It goes to show that maybe that closet that they've covered up, they've covered it up for a It was amazing because it was the only place where they had some privacy because obviously, they weren't able to record and didn't know about them taking advantage of the OTC. Yeah.

Now, they just have to go, Screw it. We just got to whisper and talk to each other somehow Everybody wants to get caught up on what happened out there. We learn that what you saw, which is the big news, we learned that Heli is... It seems like she doesn't want to tell the truth about what she saw.

Yeah. She's embarrassed about what she saw or something. Also, Haley noticed in an earlier scene that the camera that was always in MDR is no longer. That's right.

Yeah, they're being told basically that, Hey, you don't have to all huddle up in the closet. He's letting them know that we knew you were doing that. Yeah. But yeah, it's interesting that Haley doesn't want to tell the truth. It's interesting that Irving is basically still getting over this really traumatic moment of being at Bert's door and wants to leave and wants to end it all. Dylan is able to talk him off the ledge, and everybody ends up back in MDR.

Wonderful scene between John and Zack there.

Great scene. Yeah. Love I love that scene. Where also Irving tells Dylan about the Black hallway, too, for the first time. Yes. Then everybody's back around the cubicle and we're resetting for the beginning of season 2.

The music cue there is really terrific. Yes.

Yeah, that's a great song by the Allergies, which are a DJ group. Oh, cool. Yeah.

It's a great... We're resetting in a way. Everything is now different, but we're seeing them sit in their familiar spots. It's a really fun moment.

I love that. Then that last little moment on your monitor, and we see a flicker of it looks like Gemma, possibly. It's Casey.

Yeah, it's interesting.

We don't quite know what that is, and we see that it says Cold Harbor on it, which is another file that it seems like that's the file you're working on. Interesting.

Okay. Okay, well, let's take a quick break, and when we come back, we'll be joined by our very special guest, Tramell Tillman.

The MDR team continues to search for answers as they try to piece together memories from the overtime contingency. With Mark S attempting reintegration and the truth about Heli beginning to surface, the team is more disconnected from each other and lumen than ever. But luckily, you don't have to take a mind-erasing elevator to work every day. So your workplace productivity can be much simpler with Confluence by Atlassian. Confluence is the connected work space where teams can collaborate and create like never before, where teams have easy access to the relevant pages and resources their projects call for while discovering important contexts they didn't even know they needed. A space where AI streamlines the things that normally eat up their time letting teams generate, organize, and deliver work faster. In fact, with Confluence, teams can see a 5.2% average boost in productivity in one year. So goodbye, Severed workplace alienation. Hello, teamwork with Confluence. Set knowledge free with Confluence. Learn more at atlassian. Com/confluence. That's atlassian. Com/confluencie. Com/confluencie. Our guest today is the wonderful, incredibly talented actor, Mr. Trimel Tillman, who plays our new floor manager, Mr. Milchick. Yes. Also known by some as Mr. Milkshake.

I'm so sorry about that.

Tramel, welcome to the pod. Happy you're here. You're so great. It's so exciting to talk to you. We didn't get to talk to you in season one, so this is awesome.

I'm glad. I'm glad I got this opportunity here. Listen, he's the boss now. He's doing big things. He has moved up. We're excited.

I'm excited. Yeah, Mr. Milchick, first of all, thank you for being here. You're just incredible. Thank you. Obviously, we are very, very fond of you and Mr. Milchick. I find Mr. Milchick, and I know the audience does as well, just fascinating because he's in this position of authority and sometimes has to do things with the innies that feels ethically dodgy, but you feel for Mr. Milchick. He's a fascinating person, and I'm just curious what it was about the character right off the bat that interested you, and where did all of that barely hidden empathy and complexity come from?

Well, first, I got to say thank you so much for seeing that the man is not completely a monster. Oh, yeah.

I think there's a couple of threats out there for a Milchick.

They want to see him in the streets and lay hands on him. But I think it was so important about building Milchick was to find his heart and find his pulse, his rhythm, what drives him in this space. He's the keeper of all these secrets, so he knows everything. But all of it is in service of Lumen, in service of Keir. For me, finding a way in was really finding depth and connection with the innies. As long as I can get some idea of trust with them, if I can get them to play along, I'm winning.

But one of the interesting things, I think, in the dynamic of the show is that we never quite know where you're at in terms of your feelings feelings for them, what you're up to. As you said, some people see Milchick as a very scary character because you don't know. You don't know what's going on there. Sometimes he's scary, sometimes he's charming, sometimes he seems connected, sometimes he seems that he's totally putting up this façade. It was fun over the course of the season to have those discussions with you. We didn't know each other before. Maybe we could just talk a little bit about your background, where you came from as an actor Where did it all start for you, Tramell? Because I know you did some things before you went into acting.

I did. I did some of everything. For me, it started in the church. I grew up in the church in Landover, and it was very important to my mom that I was active. It wasn't just all about school work. She wanted to make sure that I was well-rounded. She got involved with this play at the church, and they needed somebody to play her son. What better person to play her son than, I guess, her son? But when I was approached about doing the play, I was terrified. I didn't want to do it. I was incredibly shy as a kid. I didn't like standing up in front of people. I didn't like talking to people. I didn't like engaging with strangers. I just wanted to be in my room reenacting scenes from movies like Bad Boys. She encouraged me to do this play, and something just connected for me. I had one line and one direction, I was supposed to say hi and sit on the couch. That was it. When I did, something just lit in me, and I said, This is amazing. This is so much fun.

What was it about it that was exciting?

I think it was sitting on the couch in front of all of these people who I wasn't really sure. I knew, some I did, some I didn't, and just existing together in a space, just breathing. I didn't feel afraid when I was on stage. It was something, all of the the the the barriers, the covers, the mask, they just melted away, and I can just be.

You felt completely exposed and comfortable with that.In.

A very strange way.Yeah..

But didn't you at one point want to go into medicine?

I did. That came about because I was told at a very young age that I'd I'll never make it as an actor.

That's nice. That sent you into...

It was almost like an ultimatum. If you wanted to make it in life, you need to either go to business, medicine, sciences, technology. You got to go the STEM route. Sure. I figured science, I can help people make a difference. I'm good in science. I'm horrible at math, but I'm good at science. I looked into becoming a doctor. Through high school, I even went to college. I went to Xavier University in New Orleans because they were number ones in sending African-Americans to medical school. I was doing great in biology class. I was miserable. I made in it. I think the best part of ChemLab was watching the chemicals change colors, which in of itself is a form of theater.

I was just going to say it. It's like they're performing for you.

Yes, and I loved it. But I looked around and I I noticed that all of these people, my classmates who are now doctors, they love this. They were so enthralled with this. I said, If I'm going to live my life, I want to do something that I love to do. I went on a long journey to try to figure out what is the thing that made me happy, what gave me joy. I went from career to career. I went into public relations. I went into advertising. I went into publicity. I went into all of the different avenues to try to figure out that thing. It was eventually, I got to the point where I had to sit down with myself and had the help with a mentor who was the head of acting at Jackson State University, Dr. Mark G. Henderson, and he said to me, What is the thing that excites you? What is the thing that motivates you? And it doesn't matter how much you get paid. What is that thing? I said, It was performing. That's what you need to do. I gave him every excuse in the book as to why I shouldn't do it, why I can't do it.

He said, Once you finish with your excuses, go after it. He told me to go to grad school. I ended up going to grad school at University of Tennessee.For a theater.For a theater to study that, to get the tools to have in the toolbox. All of those experiences from working all these crazy jobs, studying medicine, to being an abstinence educator, All of these things just led to this point.

Yeah.

I wanted to ask, I read that you were one of the first Black men to graduate from University of Tennessee's Acting program, right?

Yeah.

What year was that?

2014.

That is crazy. That is wild.

It's bizarre.

Well, I mean, just to talk about that for a second, because Milchick is really the only Black employee or person in management that we see.

Forward-facing. Yeah, because Natalie, but-Yeah, well, Natalie, too.

I guess on the Severed floor, too, right? But you're right. But it's something that is part of what's going on there, but we don't talk about it a lot in the show. How did that play for you? How did that play into just the dynamics in the first season and then going into the second season? Because at the beginning of the second season, you have been promoted, and you're starting to feel a little bit of the corporate politics.

I think it really fed into the making of Milchick. I remember the conversation that I had with you, Ben and Dan Erickson, when we discussed Milchick check's ethnicity, the fact that he's Black. The question I asked is, does he know he's Black? For me, it was really important for this character, and as an actor, to know if this character understood that he is different from this culture that they've built at Lumen. When we look at the perpetuity wing, they're all homogenous for the most part. They're all white. We don't see a lot of images of Black people or Brown people represented through Lumen. What does it mean to be in a world that you are not represented in? How does Milchick buy into that? I think there is something that Keir feeds. There's a doctrine, there's a philosophy, there's a history that he really attaches himself to that empowers him in some way, that he continues day after day to be a part of this. Because just like you said, he's participating in dodgy behavior. How does he reconcile that? How does he sleep at night knowing what he's doing to these innies, or how does he view these innies?

It's really interesting interesting because on the page, I remember before you were cast, before you even thought about anyone playing the role, reading it, it seemed fairly straightforward, the role of Milchick. And then when I saw you playing the role, you sent me Trimel's one of his auditions, I think the final audition, whatever it was, and it just completely bloomed, and it just jumped off the page and added so much dimension and complexity to a role that could have been completely straightforward and functioned fine in the story. But that complexity and those new angles completely redefined it. Now, when you say that about Milchick having to participate in things that might be a little ethically dodgy, how aware of that? Because his belief has to be overpowering and guiding him to a certain extent. How much do you feel he is aware of the ethically tricky corners he finds himself in?

That's a good question. I don't know if I specifically have broken down how much Milchick has thought about the ethical ramifications. I know that he senses the the ethical, the issues with that. We saw that in season one, episode three or four, where Heli, it's the first time she goes down into the break room, and Heli is pleading with Milchick, Don't do this, don't do this. You seem like a sensible guy. He just says, Not right now. There's something there that he recognizes. He taps into that humanity, right? But this is a man of duty.

Yeah.

This is a man of task. He has a job at hand, and he goes and serves the mission.

I get the sense he is, at least through season one, a company man. We don't know, just going back to what you were talking about earlier in terms of how he sees himself at the company, we don't know what his background is in terms of how he was raised, where he was raised, this connection to Lumen and to Keir that you're talking about, it's an unknown for us in terms of how deep that goes with him and how much that overrides maybe his sense of self in terms of as it applies to somebody who works at the company, it applies to race, It's like what you said, how does he know he's Black? It's such an interesting question. To me, a part of that is how much is he just a product of this world that we don't know what it is and how overreaching it is in his world. That, to me, is one of the things that's so fascinating about the character is that we don't know where he's coming from. That scene with Haley in the break room, it's so scary because, yeah, you get the sense. He says, not right now.

It's like you get the sense that he can be the guy who's like, Hey, I'm your buddy. But then he can also be like, No, this is it. This is business. We draw the line here. That's what's so scary is that you can go between that. I think that you do that so well in the show. Thank you. In the second season now, here we are, and you've been promoted, and you have such a huge task in front of you because you have to basically get everybody back in line and tell them what happened and tell them what you're going to do, and you have to to set everything.

That's true. Yeah, you have to clean up Cobell's mess and construct this entire new world of Lumen.

Can I add to that? I also have to clean up my mess because I did the OTC, right? That was a major booboo.

That's one of the things that we see throughout the show is that Milchick sometimes is doing things. I mean, Cobell is doing her own thing, which you put her in check on, we see in season one, and you ultimately tell her she's out, and you're not making the decision, but you draw the line there. But then you're constantly having to do things and make choices that you're on the line for. Here we are now, the OTC happened, and now you're responsible for resetting everybody. You got to show Mark the newspaper, but don't really let him look at it for too long. The redacted newspaper. I love the moment where basically you say to him, Enjoy your balloons, when Mark pushes too hard. We really get the sense that there's going to be a real tension here that's coming for the season between Mark pushing back on you and you drawing the line. Then you take everybody to the break room. You have to You set everybody and you show them the paper redacted. Let's take a listen to that scene.

I know we have our differences, but I want you to know that I truly respect each and every one of you. I don't want to be your jailer. By end of day, each of you will choose whether you want to remain here, not your outies, but you. If you start work on your foul, I'll assume you want to stay. If not, I'll send you to the surface. No ill will. Maybe I'll even buy you a drink at a Bistro one day. Like the rest of the severed floor, the break room has no cameras or microphones. Privacy shouldn't mean packing into a supply closet like so many sardines. I truly hope you all will choose to stay and enjoy what you've helped build. A new quarter, a fresh start for all of us.

You're just pointing all blame, just dumping it all on Cobell.

All on her. That's right. That's right. I didn't do anything wrong. It's Cobell.

Now, in For me, for reason one, you saw her going off track here and there, but she was above you, and you were somewhat supportive. But then when things completely went off the rails, like Ben said, you were tasked with telling her she was fired, it was time for her to go. Now you're stepping into her role. Like you were saying, you have several messes to clean up, but this is a huge opportunity for Milchick as well, isn't it?

Oh, absolutely. I believe Milchick to be not only just a company man, but an ambitious company man. He has his sights set high. When Cobell had the opportunity to turn things around, she chose not to. I think it's really interesting, going back to season one, Cobell asked the question, Did Milchick turn me in? When she's talking to Natalie, and that question is never answered, which I think is fun. Even on top of that, their relationship, this Kabel and Milchik, it seems like this mentor and mentee relationship. Any of the actions that were coming or ramifications would immediately go to Kabel. But now that Milchik has risen to the ranks, now anything that happens, it falls on him. Whether or not he betrayed Cobell, I think that's a question to let linger, if you will. But I think it's so interesting that now in this position, when he's trying to get Mark back on board, that he's putting everything on her.

I just have a question. Is a thruple with an in-e and an out-e an ethical form of non-monogamy?

That's interesting. That is a really good question.

I feel It's like the thruple with the cobalt and Marks, Andy, and Outie. Yeah. It could be...

I don't know. That could be its own spin-off. It could be a spin-off. It's funny that Mr. Milchick is taking this word that means something else and applying it just to make something else sound illicit and perverted in a way, and it doesn't even really make a lot of sense.

It doesn't make sense, no. Corporate speak.

Yeah.

Has it been interesting being identified as Mr. Milchick in the world, people knowing you from the show? Has that become a thing? How do people respond to you in life?

They're terrified of me.

Oh, come on.

Well, I have to say something. We went to see you in a play, which you were wonderful in.Thank you.Off Broadway recently. This character was 180 degrees from Mr. Milchick, and you were smiling and laughing and so accessible and warm. I'm sitting there watching it, knowing you for a number of years now, knowing you're an actor, knowing you're creating this character. I'm going, Oh, my God, this is freaking me out.

I know. It was jarring, particularly strange since that character was so much closer to who you are, Tramal, as a person than Mr. Milchick But it's still, I couldn't believe what I was seeing. It was so wildly different.

Yeah, I'm so impressed. Honestly, and having worked with you over the last few years, the intensity and the specificity and the concentration you have when I'm working with you. I do feel like I'm working with you in character as Milchick. I don't know how you do it. Maybe talk a little bit about that. You don't have to if you don't want to. But you're in a space, and we all go into a space when we're working, but it feels different than probably if I ran into you on the street or right now. Sure.

Yeah, I mean, with Milchick, it feels like you got to put a suit on. You know what I mean? This man's got layers upon layers upon layers, and at any moment, he could turn. For me to walk in that, even on set, at least I don't think I'm a dick to anybody on set, but there's a heaviness. There's a weight that you got stay in. The way the ship is ran, we work. We're so focused and so tuned in and getting the shots and angles and everything. We can't afford to lose any moment.

You're so right. Everybody has their responsibility responsibility on the set to get the most out of our days. You guys have so much responsibility because lots of times you come in with these long speeches or these very long scenes. Long scenes. Very specifically worded. Nobody's really improvbing on set. No, you can't. Yeah. You guys are bringing in your end of it. We all know each other now. We know, okay, we're going to be going for a lot of shots in this scene, or we're going to be going for a oneer in this scene where everybody has to have it and everybody seems to really come to the table with taking care of their part of the bargain. It's always so appreciated. I'm always amazed because I watch you guys, even though I'm an actor, as a I just am like such a fan because I see how good you guys are with this very technical stuff. I mean, we also can't not talk about the MDE from season one, the music dance experience. Oh, my God.

It's just-You must get a lot of that out in the world, people wanting to talk about it. Yes.

One person came up to me and asked me to dance, reenact the dance in the middle of the street. I'm like, okay, we're not going to do that.

What am I? What am I? You're an entertainer. Yeah, exactly. I'm a clown. I amuse you. But it's amazing. I love it so much. I remember when we were doing it and when I was editing it, I just was like, This is my favorite thing to watch in the world. I don't think I knew that you moved so Well, when you came in and read for the show, we never really talked about that, did we?

No. It wasn't part of the- What is your dance experience? You didn't ask.

You didn't know that was trained? No. Can you tell me, where does it come I think it's just life.

It's just all natural. Really? Yeah.

You must have been. I can imagine you as a professional dancer. I mean, you're amazing. Thank you.

I'm alive. I have experience. I don't move. You don't move either. There's got to be something more. No training, no classes?

No official training. I mean, I might have to take a class here and there, but I did talent shows when I was a kid. Damn you. I don't remember dancing. So did I. California Raisins. Do you remember that? California Raisins? I remember the California Raisins. I dressed up as a California Raisin.

Wait, you were a California Raisin?

Yeah, I was a California Raisin.

In the commercials?

No, no, no, no. Just for fun. I dressed up in the talent show.

And lip synced to I heard it through the Great Fine.Yes. There's a video somewhere.

I have to find it. My mom has it. It was just letting go and have fun.

But you went on. We talked about it. I remember we had a choreographer came, but you basically went off and you just figured You just figured it out. You and her went off together and then- You gave us that very beautiful but hard to dance music.

Shaking to me.

Very hard.

Oh my God. How do you dance to this?

What is this? Okay, let's start in the shoulders.

Let's figure it out. That is amazing because I don't think MDE was even conceived when you were cast, probably. No, no. It's just by sheer luck that you happen to be this world-class dancer. I mean, It's incredible.

Also, John Tutturo is incredible. I had to step my game up because he was.

What about Adam? Adam.

Adam. Adam.

Adam. Adam is the favorite. Adam is the favorite. Adam is the favorite. Adam is the favorite. It's funny how you're not mentioning me. That's fine.

But Tutturo was holding back. Yes. Because he does... He's a real dancer. I just watched Big Labasky the other night. His physicality in that movie is so incredible. Yes. Do you remember our first day?

Do you remember my first day filming? Yeah. Do you remember that day?

Yeah, the scene in the hallway with John.

With me and John? Yeah.

Oh, my God. What happened? Do you know what happened? No.

Okay, so I had not been filming on a set in probably a year and a half, right? It's what? October, November, into the pandemic.

2020.

We got masks on.

Tested for days. It's your first, and also your first day on the show. First day. Yeah. With John. With John John Tutturo. John Tutturo. One of my first days with John Tutturo.

Wow. Okay, so you guys were both freaking out a little bit.

Oh, absolutely. It was not a simple shot.

What scene was it?

It was the scene where I caught Irving, sleeping or hallucinating, and I told him to walk with me, essentially. We're walking through the hallway, and I tell him, and I'm directing him to the- You're taking him to the wellness? Yes, wellness. I'm taking to wellness. Oh, right.

Yeah, it's a hallway. Walk and talk in the hallway.

It's always super simple and easy.

We had the rung ladder on the floor.

Just real quick, the rung ladder that you're talking about is, I think, the dolly track that's on the floor that has wheels on it, the cameras on it, so it creates movement with the camera. It's nice and smooth.

That's right. I had to walk over the wrong ladder, but make it look like I was not walking through the wrong ladder. It was choreographed in such a way that I had to lead but stay with John, even though he's behind me. I had to say the lines which are written so beautifully by Dan Erickson, but it's not in a natural No. Cadence. Then also work with the camera that was switching and turning and hitting the corners and whatnot. Then I'm also working with Ben Stiller. I'm like, What is going on? I was freaking out.

I First day on this big show. First day. Yeah. Yes. Oh, yeah.

I remember we did a couple of takes and John got wind of my frazzle and he said, Just relax. Just breathe. You got it. I turned and looked at him and I smile and I said, Thank you, John. Then Ben gets on the walkie. You remember what you said, Ben?

No.

Ben said, All right, I got good news and I got bad news. Good news, we're going to do it till we get it right. Bad news, we're going to do it till we get it right. That and John gave me the laugh that I needed to just breathe and relax through the whole thing.

But that was the first day. I remember. I remember. I remember. I think we did, it was 16 or 17 times. I do remember. No, That's how long it takes to get some of those things.

Yeah.

But let me tell you something. It's like, yeah, I was like, okay, he's nervous. There was a second I felt like, okay, I don't know this actor that well, but I know he's great, and I do know he has a big part in the show coming up. I'm like, all right, well, it's the first day and it's okay. I remember that very well because I was like, okay, I hope this works out. Because sometimes you never know, right? You never know. But I didn't know your history in terms of what you'd done. But I do know I screw up so much. I just identified so much. Then, oh, my God, from By the end of the season, it's like, I was afraid to talk to you. I do remember those glances. I was like, I have a note for you. I don't know, though, It was like... And I love it. It's like, dude, right? It's just like, that's what it should be, though. It's like because it was finding the character, finding the comfortability, finding all of that. You have to... It can be so easy to be shut down and to be in an environment where all of a sudden you're like, oh, shit.

It should never feel like that on a set because we're not on stage. We're not having to... It's not an audience out there. It's like you should always have a second take, third take, whatever. Anyway, all right, Well, this is great. Listen, before you go, we have some of these questions from our hotline. Give them to me. Yeah. Here's a question about something we were just talking about.

Hello, this is Betty.

I was wondering what music dance experience you would choose and what you would do to get it officially canceled.

Thank you.

Do we have the list?

Do you remember the list? There's a list for the music dance That's the experience. Oh, my God.

By the way, the way... It's also one of my favorite moments is the music dance experience is officially canceled. That was so much fun.

I remember we did that when we had come back to shoot again after we had finished principal photography. I remember being back and watching that moment where you swip the thing. There's the awkwardness with the card, but also with the door that doesn't slam. It was amazing.

Oh, that was so much fun.

Yeah. Also, the music dance experience is officially canceled. It's also one of those moments, I think, that defines the tone of the show where it's funny but real, and it's ironic, and what is this guy doing? But he's also in charge, and it's everything.

Yeah. It's almost petulate. Oh, yeah. It's like, They're taking this away. Well, also, you're not acting right.

It's canceled. Yeah. Also, when you drew blood, it's really How dare he?

This is supposed to be a good time, man. We needed some ferality, and he ruined it. We have body funk, bouncy swing, Bouyant reggae, Defiant jazz, effusive ska, exaltet choral exciting rap, hootin-tootin country, lofty, orchestrial, maximized rhythm, playful punk, reckless disco, spooky ambient, tearful emo, thoughtful grunge, wholesome big band, wistful pipes. The question was, if I had to choose the Which one would you choose? Which one would I choose?

Then what would you do to get it officially canceled?

What's the Coral one? What is that called?

It's Coral. Exaltet Coral.

Exaltet Coral.

That sounds very religious. That sounds like an experience. I have to go with Body Funk.

Body Funk? Like B-A-W? B-a-w-d-y, man. It's got to be funky. I think that's right for you, Trimel. It's a body.

Doesn't it feel guttural?

Yeah. I can see you just getting in it.

All the way down. I want to see Tramell step into the body funk.

Then I want to see you do your dance. It would be exactly the same. The March? The March. Yeah.

The March was great. Which you matched. You came up and did it right along with me.

Oh, man. Okay, one more. Second question for Mr. Milchick.

Hello, my name is Karina Sabiva, and my question is, who is Mr. Milchick's most favorite and least favorite severance worker? Thank you so much, and have a pleasant day. I hope I don't get in trouble for this one.

Yeah, it's a good question.

That's a really good question. Adam's not in character now.

Yeah, so you can say whatever you want. He's an executive producer. That's right.

Well, I would have said Mark, but he's mouthing off at me in episode one, so I don't know. That's right. I don't know about that. I think Irving is one of his favorites. He gets it. He understands the principles. He knows all nine, and he appreciates what Keir stands for. He understands that the work is mysterious and important.

Yeah.

He's reliable. He can count on Irving.

I love the scene in episode 7, season 1, where the Bert retirement party where you have to Oh, yeah. Lay down the law a little bit and say, I don't know what's gotten into you people today. Yeah.

It seems like you're particularly surprised that Irving is behaving this way.

It's like Irving's the guy.

Yeah.

He's always focused.

Man, Tramel, it was great to see you. I'm so happy that we got to talk and you're so great. It's exciting what comes up in season 2 that we can't talk yet. Where we're headed. Maybe you'll come back at some point because there's a lot of great stuff to talk about as the season develops. It's been really fun working on second season with you is just a great experience.Thank you.Yeah. Looking forward to more in the future.

Absolutely. Do you know who I need to talk to, an IT person to fix my screen? It still says, Hello, Ms. Kildo. Who do I need to talk about that?

Oh, yeah. We'll get that taken care of right away. Sorry about that.

Yeah, I called.

I've been calling. I know that you're not happy about that. I know. No, I'm not.

That seems to really piss off Mr. Milchick.

That's why that is.

But it's just not a fan. We need to check that out.

It's just a little moment there where you say to Ms. Wong, if somebody calls, you get them to fix a screen right now, and it feels like it drops Milchick a little bit. It gets a little more familiar. Am I? Is that right?

It's a little real.

It's a little too real. It's like, All right, guys, come on.

Now, we haven't talked about this. I've been here a couple of days.

I love that moment. It like the veneer drops a little bit.

Then Dylan comes back and he's like, Oh, yeah, we're great.

We're good. All that's good.

Oh, yeah. We're good.

Yeah, so much good stuff.

I also like seeing all of Milchick's stuff that still has bubble wrap around it behind him on the shelf. It's really interesting.

Yeah. Also where he keeps his motorcycle helmet and the jacket back there. The secret room. We didn't talk about that. The secret room. Yeah. That was such a fun thing, too, because Dan had written it as there's this back closet. In season one, the first time we see when you bring Mark in to see Ms. Cobell, the first time we see Patricia, she comes out from that door. I always remember thinking like, okay, there's something in there. We don't know. We all came up with this idea of like, oh, what if there's actually a passageway in that door that can go back where it's like your real back office there. Yeah.

All right. Thank you. Thank you, Tramal.

Yeah, thank you. This was fun.

It was a great man.

Okay, so we end episode one with another Severance mystery. Why did Miss Casey's face flash on the screen. To help tie you over, we're bringing Zack Cherry in to give you his prediction of what's to come in episode 2.

Just so you know, these predictions are what Zack thinks based on really probably only having read his sides and his scenes.

He doesn't like reading other people's lines.

But let's hear what he has to say. Thanks, Ben and Adam. It's Zack here. That's right. I only read my lines, so I don't know what's going on this season on Severance, but I'm excited to find out. I keep trying to convince you guys to let me do the the announcement voice on the show. My dream was to be like the movie phone guy and say, Coming up next on Severance. We're going to get that in here, too. Here's my predictions for what happens in episode 2. Next time on Severance. Ms. Casey is trapped in the number 4, and then when Mark finishes Cold Harbor, she moves up to the number 5. But she doesn't want to get to the number 7 because obviously, 789, and that's some scary stuff. Then also, I think Milchick is going to change his name to Ms. Cobell, so then he doesn't have to feel sad about his computer login screen. Maybe they'll send him two paychecks by accident. Okay. First of all, the four trapped in the number four, it doesn't make any... The premise of his joke, he just wants to get to 789, like a second-grader joke.

As usual, Zack is just after or applause and laughs and nothing else. It doesn't care where they come from.

Yeah. And he also wants to do his announcement voice thing, which is, it's not like in his wheelhouse, really.

No, but just like always, I'm sure it'll work out wonderfullyfully for Zack, and he'll get some big voiceover job because of this.

Yeah. Why don't you pitch it to Fall Out Zack? Yeah. See how they like it because we're not buying it here.

Give it a shot on crashing. Okay, and that does it for the Season 2 premiere. We'll be back next week with creator Dan Erickson to talk all about Season 2, Episode 2.

And you can stream every episode of Severance on Apple TV plus with new episodes coming out every Friday.

The Severance podcast with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott is a presentation of Odyssey, Pineapple Street Studios, Red Hour Productions, and Great Scott Productions.

If you like the show, be sure to rate and review this podcast on Apple Podcasts, the Odyssey app, or your other podcast platform of choice. Our executive producers are Barry Finkel, Henry Malowski, Gabriele Lewis, Jenner Weis-Bermann, and Leah Reece Dennis. This show is produced by Zandra Ellen, Ben Goldberg, and Naomi Scott. This episode was mixed and mastered by Chris Hazel. We had additional engineering from Javi Krustas and Davie Subner.

Show clips are courtesy of Fifth Season. Music by Theodore Shapiro. Special thanks to the team at Odyssey, Maura Curren, Eric Dunnily, Michael Levet, Melissa Wester, Matt Casey, Kate Rose, Kirek Courtney, and Hilary Shuff.

And the team at Red Hour: John Lesher, Carolina Pesecob, John Pablo Antanetti, Martin Valderuten, Aswin Ramesh, Maria Noto, John Baker, and Oliver Acker.

And at Great Scott, Naomi Scott, Kevin Cotter, Josh Martin, and Christie Smith at Rise Management.

We had additional production help from Kristen Torres and Melissa Slaater. I'm Ben Stiller.

And I'm Adam Scott. Thank you for listening.

And we all thank Keir for the MacroDat uprising.

Yes.